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sm3g wrote:
BlackTalos:

It clearly states in the blood angels dex that BOTH UNITS ARE IN DEEPSTRIKE RESERVE - BOTH

Now, the rules for this formation clearly state: arriving FROM deepstrike reserve - not by deepstrike, but just they were in deep strike reserve before they were on the board.

Now unless you can show us where it says they move from Deepstrike reserve to somewhere else before coming onto the board your point is completely null/void/wrong.

Right. And if you scroll up a few posts, I typed out the entire relevant sections of both the codex and the formation (for folks who don't have it but are debating the point), so that there is crystal clarity in the context in which they are written. I mean, the rules couldn't possibly be more specific or use clearer wording.

I agree with not continuing the Deep Striking Transport debate as off-topic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sm3g wrote:
BlackTalos:

It clearly states in the blood angels dex that BOTH UNITS ARE IN DEEPSTRIKE RESERVE - BOTH

Now, the rules for this formation clearly state: arriving FROM deepstrike reserve - not by deepstrike, but just they were in deep strike reserve before they were on the board.

Now unless you can show us where it says they move from Deepstrike reserve to somewhere else before coming onto the board your point is completely null/void/wrong.

To Talys & sm3g:
You will notice if you scroll up, that i am in agreement that Augur Triangulation provides the ability to both Drop Pods AND their Units. (Subject of the thread)

However col_impact and I were arguing a much older debate:
a Unit embarked upon a Deep Striking Transport cannot be Deep Striking itself.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/609548.page
Which is as I say, probably off-topic and not applicable here.

Talys wrote:


3. If the unit is arriving by Deep Strike, it must be a Deep Striking unit, because BRB defines a Deep Striking Unit as a unit which arrived by Deep Strike.

Your point 3 can be more clearly expressed as this.

3. If the unit is arriving from Deep Strike reserve, it must be a Deep Striking unit, because BRB defines a Deep Striking Unit as a unit which arrived from Deep Strike reserves.

col_impact wrote:
BRB defines a Deep Striking Unit as a unit which arrived from Deep Strike reserves.

Where?
Agreed, the rule you posted is very ambiguous, but the BrB never states the above...
The BrB only says "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."
A)When Deep Striking, you must be in Deep Strike Reserve.
B)when you are in Deep Strike Reserve, you don't need to be Deep Striking.
A does not exclude B.

Also reminding you that we are straying off-topic as the original question was answered.

 BlackTalos wrote:
I agree with not continuing the Deep Striking Transport debate as off-topic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sm3g wrote:
BlackTalos:

It clearly states in the blood angels dex that BOTH UNITS ARE IN DEEPSTRIKE RESERVE - BOTH

Now, the rules for this formation clearly state: arriving FROM deepstrike reserve - not by deepstrike, but just they were in deep strike reserve before they were on the board.

Now unless you can show us where it says they move from Deepstrike reserve to somewhere else before coming onto the board your point is completely null/void/wrong.

To Talys & sm3g:
You will notice if you scroll up, that i am in agreement that Augur Triangulation provides the ability to both Drop Pods AND their Units. (Subject of the thread)

However col_impact and I were arguing a much older debate:
a Unit embarked upon a Deep Striking Transport cannot be Deep Striking itself.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/609548.page
Which is as I say, probably off-topic and not applicable here.

Yes, a unit embarked upon a Deep Striking Transport can be a "Deep Striking unit", because the term "Deep Striking unit" can refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.

col_impact wrote:
Yes, a unit embarked upon a Deep Striking Transport can be a "Deep Striking unit",

No, it cannot, because it never follows the Rules for Deep Striking.

col_impact wrote:
because the term "Deep Striking unit" can refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.

It can do, but it doesn't have to.

If you just read down a bit on 162 that BRB refers to units which arrive via Deep Strike Reserves (aka Deep Strike units in Reserves) as Deep Striking units.

 BlackTalos wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Yes, a unit embarked upon a Deep Striking Transport can be a "Deep Striking unit",

No, it cannot, because it never follows the Rules for Deep Striking.

col_impact wrote:
because the term "Deep Striking unit" can refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.

It can do, but it doesn't have to.

You are getting confused. Calling something "Deep Striking unit" does not necessarily mean that that unit Deep Strikes itself. It can also refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.

Otherwise you can't make sense of this rule!

My position is that if an embarked unit is on a deep striking transport, it isn't normally deep striking.

However, if it's a BA Drop Pod, the codex says in 2 places that the embarked unit is placed in Deep Strike Reserves, aka a Deep Strike unit in Reserves.

Or did I get that wrong?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, I am happy to concede that I could be wrong about the embarked unit being deep striking, as I culd be reading too much into it, and giving GW more credit for defining things than is due. In a real game, I'm not sure I would care. I do appreciate your point.

col_impact wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Yes, a unit embarked upon a Deep Striking Transport can be a "Deep Striking unit",

No, it cannot, because it never follows the Rules for Deep Striking.

col_impact wrote:
because the term "Deep Striking unit" can refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.

It can do, but it doesn't have to.

You are getting confused. Calling something "Deep Striking unit" does not necessarily mean that that unit Deep Strikes itself. It can also refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.

Otherwise you can't make sense of this rule!

Spoiler:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

Problem is, you cannot make that separation. There are 3 terms here it seems:
1) A unit that Deep Strikes.
2) "Deep Striking" Units
3) A Unit in Deep Strike Reserves.

You say 1) =/= 2) and that 2) = 3)?
I will prove 1) = 2), and can assure you that 2) =/= 3):

"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table"

Can you "place one model" from the occupants of the Transport? I mean, the occupants ARE "Deep Striking units" right? The are forced by RaW to follow the above.

Q.E.D.: Embarked Units cannot be a Unit that Deep Strike, and as such, cannot be a "Deep Striking unit".

 BlackTalos wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Yes, a unit embarked upon a Deep Striking Transport can be a "Deep Striking unit",

No, it cannot, because it never follows the Rules for Deep Striking.

col_impact wrote:
because the term "Deep Striking unit" can refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.

It can do, but it doesn't have to.

You are getting confused. Calling something "Deep Striking unit" does not necessarily mean that that unit Deep Strikes itself. It can also refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.

Otherwise you can't make sense of this rule!

Spoiler:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

Problem is, you cannot make that separation. There are 3 terms here it seems:
1) A unit that Deep Strikes.
2) "Deep Striking" Units
3) A Unit in Deep Strike Reserves.

You say 1) =/= 2) and that 2) = 3)?
I will prove 1) = 2), and can assure you that 2) =/= 3):

"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table"

Can you "place one model" from the occupants of the Transport? I mean, the occupants ARE "Deep Striking units" right? The are forced by RaW to follow the above.

Q.E.D.: Embarked Units cannot be a Unit that Deep Strike, and as such, cannot be a "Deep Striking unit".

Units embarked on dedicated transports and placed in reserves are combined units and make one roll per the rules. So your logical pitfall is avoided by the rules.



Moreover, my argument would otherwise have no problem resolving your issue. I am saying that the rules use the term "Deep Striking unit" to refer sometimes narrowly as a unit that has Deep Strike USR and sometimes more generally as unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserve.

If we use ONLY the narrow use, you choke completely on this rule . . .

@BlackTalos - please reconcile then, the Blood Angels codex, which says to put embarked and transport into Deep Strike Reserves, and BRB which says units in Reserve arriving by Deep Strike is also called Deep Strike Reserve.

Does this not mean the embarked unit is arriving by Deep Strike?

If so, in the next paragraph, "Arriving by Deep Strike" and afterwards, it consistently refers to all of these as Deep Striking units (lower case u).

Actually, i think i understand it.

The Unit (T+Passengers) is Deep Striking, but only the Transport is arriving "by Deep Strike", while the Passengers are arriving "by disembarking", but the entire (combined) Unit is Deep Striking, which leads to:
"In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn."

by Deep Strike =/= Deep Striking?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Talys wrote:
Does this not mean the embarked unit is arriving by Deep Strike?

I think i get col_impact's point, which would be the exact opposite of the above:

The embarked Unit is never arriving by Deep Strike, but it is still a "Deep Striking" Unit.

@col_impact -- combined reserve units rules are good. Very specific.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh well, I gotta go to bed. . Good luck on the semantics.

let me restate my stance as many of you seem to not understand it.

from a purely RAW point blood angels drop pods do not work.

Which is only one of the reasons the "first turn assault" proposed in this thread does not work.

Following is the explanation as to why.

Firstly the rules for the blood angels drop pod, drop pod assault.

Drop Pod Assault:
Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.

There are a few problems with this rule as it is written.

1- Drop pods and the units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. Where are the rules for deep strike reserves? They do not exist in the blood angels codex, but they do exist in the rulebook. We will discuss that issue next as it is the biggest one and needs the most detail.

2- We are told the drop pod and embarked unit are held together, but the rule itself only states the pod arrives, it does not tell us the embarked unit arrives.

3- the pod is not stated as arriving from or by deepstrike, but reserves. This makes sense when you realize there is no such state of deep strike reserves, and if you believe there is a state of 'deep strike reserves' then this rule does not work because the drop pod is arriving from reserves and not deep strike reserves.


regarding 'Deep Strike reserves'

The issue with it is the Blood angels codex wording implies an embarked unit can be in 'deep strike reserves' but does not state what that means.

If you look in the rulebook there is only one mention of deep strike reserves.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

There is no other mention of deep strike reserves.

as anyone can plainly see from the Rules as Written, a unit is placed in reserve and you tell your opponent it is going to arrive by deep strike. sometimes this is called deep strike reserves.

The issue here is with not with the transport but the embarked unit.

If a model is in reserves, and arriving by deep strike (which is what deep strike reserves is) it has to follow the rules for arriving by deepstrike. because 'deep strike reserves' is a unit in reserves 'arriving by deepstrike' the only place we see arriving by deepstrike is immediately following the statement quoted above which are the rules for arriving by deepstrike.

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

per the rules as written that is what arriving by deepstrike is, so a model in reserves which is arriving by deepstrike (which is the only definition of 'deepstrike reserves anywhere') has to follow those rules to deploy.

in the case of a transport and the embarked models, the embarked models do not gain deep strike.

Deep Strike and Transports Units do not confer the Deep Strike special rule onto a Transport vehicle they are embarked inside. A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not.

so the embarked unit can not arrive by deepstrike.

Further note in a section dealing with transport+embarked unit, it states the transport may deepstrike regardless if the passengers have it or not, but does not state the passengers count as deep striking, or the combined reserve roll counts as arriving by deepstrike. We are told that the transport is the one that is deep striking.

There is no rules quote anywhere saying an unit embarked on a transport arriving by deepstrike counts as arriving by deepstrike, or anything to that effect.

further as the embarked unit is not following the rules for 'arriving by deepstrike' it can never be placed into deep strike reserves, as that is a state that literally means "in reserves and will be arriving by deepstrike"

as such an unit embarked on a transport can never be held in deep strike reserves, because it can never arrive by deepstriking as per the rules.

now I do concede a RAI argument can be made based on the wording of drop pod assault that shows the pod+unit are held in deepstrike reserves, however the same ruling only says the pod arrives, and not the pod+embarked unit arrive, so another RAI argument with the same support could be said that the combined roll is for the pod arriving by deepstrike, and they arrive together, but only the pod is arriving by deepstrike as it is the only one with deepstrike, in such a case the unit would be arriving as well but could not be arriving from 'deepstrike reserves' as per the RAW because it did not arrive by deepstrike.

And while I appreciate many posters sharing their opinion on this matter, that no one has been able to construct a rules argument that actually deals with the issue of 'arriving by deepstrike' is a rule and not just a statement, as well as 'deep strike reserves' being a unit placed in reserve that you tell your opponent is arriving by deepstrike, and the unit embarked is not arriving by deepstrike as per the previously stated makes it difficult to take many of your responses with any merit.

This does not even address the issues with the teleport homers, and the lack of rules saying you can use teleport homers when embarked.

there is no rules justification for being able to use teleport homers while embarked. the only time you are given permission to measure to and from a vehicle for an embarked squad in the rulebook is to measure for shooting for firing points, and the teleport homer is not a shooting attack nor is it used in the shooting phase, nor is it the squad firing anything. The rules for teleport homer itself does not give permission to measure to a vehicle if a model is embarked on it, and further the actual background info for "augur triangulation" specifically states the sergeants with the teleport homers are on the ground when they use it. I challenge anyone to find a rule in the rulebook that gives blanket permission to use wargear that is not a shooting attack while embarked, or to find specific permission for teleport homers/augur triangulation to actually support their stance.

Blaktof,
I need to point out an error in your post:
If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.
- Embarking....

Now why it is located in that section of the Rule book is a mystery to me, the Editor over there has some unusual formatting choices, but it grants permission for all ranges involving an Embarked Unit to me measured to the hull of the vehicle instead. I also have some concerns about using the word 'its' within the limitation, as it really should have been left at (except for shooting) so it also covered shots coming back the other way. There exists weapons which do not need Line of Sight, only Range, so a more extensive limitation would have made much more sense.

JinxDragon wrote:
Blaktof,
I need to point out an error in your post:
We have permission to measure to the Hull of a Vehicle for all situations which involve measurement to the Embarked Unit except for Shooting....

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.
- Embarking.... why it is found there I do not know.

I see the quote you are stating.

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.

I agree that tells you how to measure a range to/from an embarked unit, but does not give blanket permission for wargear/special rules to work while embarked, just as there is no blanket permission to fire at embarked units by measuring to the hull of a vehicle they are embarked on.

The how of measuring tells you how to do it, when you have permission to do it. The 'if' part could imply that when a rule says something can be done to/from embarked units this is how you do it if you need to.

One could argue that the rule quoted gives blanket permission to measure all things to and from the vehicle, one could argue it tells you how to measure to the embarked unit if something specifically is allowed to target embarked units, or be used by embarked units. Otherwise as we have both stated, if the first is true than you can shoot at embarked units, which is obviously silly.

in the case of augur triangulation it specifies the units have to arrive within 12" of the models with the teleport homers. There is no permission for the models to be embarked, or statement that when embarked measure to the vehicle. Given the background that the "tactical sergeants on the ground with their teleport homers" and that the formation itself is a unit of 3 stormravens with 3 embarked tactical squads, that there is no explicit wording stating you can do it while embarked shows that you cannot do this while embarked.

I have a problem with your 'does not give permission for war-gear to work while embarked' statement.

Honestly, I am being a little lazy when it comes to research as I have decided to put other things foremost to the arguments of this forum. I had a few hours free so thought I would poke my nose in here and see what is going on, but I don't have time enough to comb through the book for my own answers just yet. I will simply state that I can not recall anything within the Rulebook informing us as to when we have permission to utilize a piece of war-gear, just that Models will have possession of and the ability to utilize something known as 'war-gear.' As I doubt we have instructions as simple as 'wargear is used during this phase, within these situations,' I have to conclude that we have permission to use war-gear by default.

So I ask you:
Do you agree that a Model have permission to use Wargear by default?
If not, where in the book can I find instructions telling us when and how to use Wargear?
If so, where in the book does it state Embarking removes that permission?

The model does have permission to use the wargear by virtue of having it and the rules for the wargear.

regarding your questions-
I agree models has permission to use its wargear.
in regards to this piece of wargear, it is because the model itself is required to be on table from the rule contained in "augur triangulation" as the units arriving from deep strike reserves have to be placed within 12" of the model with the teleport homer. if the model is embarked it is not on the table. On the use of language the rule states 'model' and the rule for measuring to embarked units is units, which is not model. Of course an unit is comprised of one or more models, but if one wanted to argue strictly based on language then there is not permission to measure to an embarked model that is part of a unit, which is what is required for this special rule. Of course the editor/write of the rules also left such 'gems' as fnp is not a save, when making a fnp save....so lets not discuss language too much

given that the wargear calls out that units wishing to benefit it must be within 12" of the model with the wargear (for augur triangulation) and the model is not on the table anymore, then there needs to be permission to use it while embarked as the model is no longer on the table, or the rules for being embarked and measuring have to mean not how you do it when permission is given to do it, but all things can be measured to and from the embarked vehicle.

So the statement on embarked models and measuring ranges, comes down to a discussion of does it mean:

a: all things can be measured to and from an embarked unit without specific permission and this is how it works.

b: if something has rules that target an embarked unit, or if something the embarked unit has that can be used while embarked here is how to use it.


if a:

then where are the rules to prevent any unit from targeting a vehicle and opting to shoot at the embarked unit for their shooting attack as opposed to the vehicle itself. Of course the LoS thing is an issue, but some weapons ignores LoS restrictions.

this would also mean things like novas would hit the passengers as well as the vehicle for each attack.

JinxDragon wrote:
I have a problem with your 'does not give permission for war-gear to work while embarked' statement.

Honestly, I am being a little lazy when it comes to research as I have decided to put other things foremost to the arguments of this forum. I had a few hours free so thought I would poke my nose in here and see what is going on, but I don't have time enough to comb through the book for my own answers just yet. I will simply state that I can not recall anything within the Rulebook informing us as to when we have permission to utilize a piece of war-gear, just that Models will have possession of and the ability to utilize something known as 'war-gear.' As I doubt we have instructions as simple as 'wargear is used during this phase, within these situations,' I have to conclude that we have permission to use war-gear by default.

So I ask you:
Do you agree that a Model have permission to use Wargear by default?
If not, where in the book can I find instructions telling us when and how to use Wargear?
If so, where in the book does it state Embarking removes that permission?

My group has also been debating this issue. We have also raised the same arguments blacktoof has raised. On an "intent" issue, it is interesting that when GDub has decided to make a ruling or decide the issue they've either said it doesn't work or works in way such that it doesn't not extend past the confines of the Transport, see KFF and PFG. However, we've decided for the most part to allow it since this might be an extreme minority position and don't want to either alienate potential attendees or prejudice ourselves when it comes to attending other events. We have walked some of it back since you aren't granted permission to measure to a single model within a larger unit.

in regards to not extending past the transport, psychic hood from an embarked model is also ruled the same.

Whether these are permissions for a rule/wargear item to affect a transport the unit is embarked on.

or

a the rule for measuring to/from embarked models being blanket permission to measure things to/from embarked models in all cases and a modification of how they would work when embarked.

is difficult to ascertain.

Blaktoff,
We have permission to use Wargear while Embarked then, as nothing removes permission to evoke Rule attached to Wargear at that time
This wargear requires us to measure a radius of 12 inches around the Embarked Model, so we are required to measure something akin to a Range
We have permission to measure any Range involving an Embarked Unit, such as to a Model within that Unit, by measuring to the Transport itself
Therefore, logically, we have permission to measure to the Hull of the Transport for the purpose of this one piece of wargear....

The only Rule as Written argument I can foresee is thus:
Ranges require measuring inches, but not all measurement of inches are Range....
It is weak but it is based on the fact these pieces of war-gear do not refer to the bubble created as a 'range,' or else we would not be having this conversation at all because a range can be measured to the Transport as per Rule as Written. The word Range is not defined within the Rulebook as any time we make a measurement in inches, so it is possible to make the argument none the less. This would mean the clause involving measuring to the Transport for an Embarked Unit would only apply to Shooting, Psychic Powers and Charges... things which call themselves Ranges... by default. This is curious though, as all three of those things have further Restrictions which make it impossible to apply this very clause to those situations. This has me further wondering if you can name any pieces of wargear which can function while Embarked under such a narrow reading of the Rules...?

Angelic,
The fact that any piece of Wargear singles out the Embarked Unit in order to further Restrict them is evidence that they are not Restricted by default....
As you are trying to apply an identical Restriction to all Embarked Units by default, why would any piece of war-gear require such in writing if they are already Restricted?

There is no explicit permission to use the item while embarked, despite having rules on how to measure to an embarked unit if it needs to be done, it does not actually state an allowance to do it under any specific instance or at all times, so either.

a- it is blanket permission for anything to be measure to/from an embarked unit in a vehicle.

b- telling you how to do something if you a rule calls for it to be done to/from an embarked unit.

given the interpretation you are putting forward that all things can be used/done from an embarked unit, or to an embarked unit, without explicit permission to do so in the rule for the wargear/special rule itself would you be okay with say a hive tyrant landing next to a land raider and using psychic scream on the embarked unit inside?

There are many other permutations of what could be done to an embarked unit.

Since it is the same ruling.

Permission to use Wargear exists by default, the requirement for 'explicit instruction' must be within a restriction telling us when not to apply the Rules we have access to.
Psychic Shrek, I assume that is the one you wanted, requires Line of Sight before it can be evoked....

While you are trying to find broken situations I have a request:
Can you find a piece of Wargear which specifically mentions it has permission to measure to an Embarked Unit?
And not the few which brings up Embarked Units to further Restrict measurement which, as per B, wouldn't need to exist....

So where are we at with all this?
Anyone care to post a poll for general concensus?
What does the TO population think? How would they rule this for their respective events?

I think the debate has reached an exhaustive point by now and isn't constructive. We're at NECKBEARDCON 1 here, and no one's winning.

@blaktoof --

To say that Deep Strike Reserve isn't explicitly defined in Blood Angels Codex is just plain silly. Neither is anything else of a similar nature, either In BA Codex, or any other Codex. To pick a random example, Snap Shots aren't defined, yet we understand that Sharpshot's Special Rules (Illic Nightspear) refer to Shap Shots as defined in the BRB.

The convention of the English language is that when words are capitalized, like Snap Shot or Deep Strike Reserve, the reference is to a defined term, rather than a generic term. For instance, snap shot is a nonspecific adjective + noun; Snap Shot refers to a defined term. "reserve" is nonspecific, "Reserve" is a defined term.

BRB clearly defines the words Reserve and Deep Strike Reserve.

We can argue that the rules aren't good, but the Blood Angels Codex clearly says in two different places (unit entry and back flap) that for drop pod assault, to place the embarked unit into Deep Strike Reserve. There is no ambiguity.

In the Formation, it clearly states, units arriving from Deep Strike Reserve. If anything, the defined term of the Formation is closely twinned to the defined term for the Codex, as the White Dwarf Formation was written specifically to supplement the Codex, the week after the release of the codex.

If there is any other doubt that Drop Pods are intended to be usable with Angel's Fury, simply read the description, which references both drop and teleport units. We can argue whether the intent of the homers is to be in the helo or out of the helo (my position would be that just because the 2 sergeants were out of the helo don't mean the teleport homers wouldn't also have worked inside the helo), but we cannot argue that the intent of the formation is intended for drop and teleport units.

As to the placement issue that you have in BRB for Deep Striking Units -- this is overridden by the combined units rules in the BRB (see col_impact's posts above).

as a nova psychic shriek does not require LoS.

as such by the same 'ruling' of what the section on if you need to measure from/to embarked models means allows you to use nova powers on embarked units.



regarding wargear that explicitly states it can be used while embarked.

I think we both agree that wargear that does not extend an effect past something, or does not require a model to be in base to base or base to x" works while embarked, ie med pack that gives a unit FnP still is affecting the unit when they are embarked.

there are not many rules/items which are not shooting attacks that have an affect based on range from model.

I agree permission to use wargear exits by default, but permsision to use wargear that requires measuring to a model that is not on the table, does not exist by default as you cannot measure to the model.

Whether the section on embarked models is telling you that permission exists, it gives no mention of that, or how to do it if permission exists- it does say if you need to, which isn't permission but rather how to do it if you need to.

mek tools, I think servo arm/harness used to.

blessing of omnissiah which is a special rule and not wargear.

teleport homer from the space marine codex- requires teleport homer to be on board. That would obviously be disembarked as an embarked model is not on the board.

 House Griffith wrote:
So where are we at with all this?
Anyone care to post a poll for general concensus?
What does the TO population think? How would they rule this for their respective events?

I think the debate has reached an exhaustive point by now and isn't constructive. We're at NECKBEARDCON 1 here, and no one's winning.

In our local play group, we are allowing drop pod units to disembark and charge. The consensus was pretty much unanimous that this was the intent of the Formation. We don't see it as game breaking, as it's over a thousand points to set up, which makes it an all-your-eggs-in-one-basket strategy for sub 2000 games. If someone wants to play that, have fun.

 House Griffith wrote:
So where are we at with all this?
Anyone care to post a poll for general concensus?
What does the TO population think? How would they rule this for their respective events?

I think the debate has reached an exhaustive point by now and isn't constructive. We're at NECKBEARDCON 1 here, and no one's winning.

Quick Resume:

RaW wrote:Augur triangulation:
If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve within 12" of at least two models from the formation equipped with teleport homers then it does not scatter and can charge in the same turn it arrives.

Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. (...)

We all agree that Pods and their Occupants are in Deep Strike Reserves.

Most agree that, as they are in Deep Strike Reserves, and have "arrived", they can charge per the Augur Rule.

The ongoing debate is currently sorting out if "two models from the formation equipped with teleport homers" can be just arrived themselves, and inside Vehicles.

Talys wrote:
@blaktoof --

To say that Deep Strike Reserve isn't explicitly defined in Blood Angels Codex is just plain silly. Neither is anything else of a similar nature, either In BA Codex, or any other Codex. To pick a random example, Snap Shots aren't defined, yet we understand that Sharpshot's Special Rules (Illic Nightspear) refer to Shap Shots as defined in the BRB.

The convention of the English language is that when words are capitalized, like Snap Shot or Deep Strike Reserve, the reference is to a defined term, rather than a generic term. For instance, snap shot is a nonspecific adjective + noun; Snap Shot refers to a defined term. "reserve" is nonspecific, "Reserve" is a defined term.

BRB clearly defines the words Reserve and Deep Strike Reserve.

We can argue that the rules aren't good, but the Blood Angels Codex clearly says in two different places (unit entry and back flap) that for drop pod assault, to place the embarked unit into Deep Strike Reserve. There is no ambiguity.

In the Formation, it clearly states, units arriving from Deep Strike Reserve. If anything, the defined term of the Formation is closely twinned to the defined term for the Codex, as the White Dwarf Formation was written specifically to supplement the Codex, the week after the release of the codex.

If there is any other doubt that Drop Pods are intended to be usable with Angel's Fury, simply read the description, which references both drop and teleport units. We can argue whether the intent of the homers is to be in the helo or out of the helo (my position would be that just because the 2 sergeants were out of the helo don't mean the teleport homers wouldn't also have worked inside the helo), but we cannot argue that the intent of the formation is intended for drop and teleport units.

As to the placement issue that you have in BRB for Deep Striking Units -- this is overridden by the combined units rules in the BRB (see col_impact's posts above).

your last statement actually has no rules proof. the combined units rule tells us they arrive together from the same dice roll, but does not tell us they arrive by the same way or count as arriving by the same way.

further support of this is that 'deep strike reserves' as you correctly stated is not defined in the blood angels codex, but rather in the rulebook as "being in reserves, and arriving by deep strike".

arriving by deepstrike is defined as "placing model, rolling for scatter, etc.."

we are told the embarked unit does not gain deepstrike, and know that it does not follow the rules for arriving by deepstrike.

in the blood angels rules for drop pod assault we are told the pod arrives by reserves. we can infer it arrives by deepstrike because it has deepstrike and 'deep strike reserves' is only the RAW act of being in reserves, and then arriving by deepstrike= place model, roll for scatter. We are not told the pod+unit arrive from reserves.

RAW the embarked unit is said to be placed in deepstrike reserves in the blood angels codes for drop pod assault, but RAW it cannot be according to the rules for 'deep strike reserves' as it cannot arrive by deepstrike, ie place model, roll scatter, etc.

by RAW the embarked unit is arriving from reserves at the same time as a drop pod that is arriving from reserves by deepstrike on a combined roll.

the embarked unit is never said to count as arriving by deepstrike, or be deepstriking itself so it can never fulfill the RAW requirment of 'arriving by deepstrike', which is what it has to do from reserves to be in 'deep strike reserves'

while I appreciate you think there is no ambiguity in a unit+pod being placed in something, and then being told that the pod arrives but no mention of what happens to the unit being a valid reason for why a unit inside which is not deep striking, not mentioned anywhere in any rule to be arriving by deepstrike, is somehow arriving by deepstrike from reserves to fulfill 'deep strike reserves' I cannot help but wonder if you see the irony that it is actually quite ambiguous to state that the unit is actually arriving by deep strike from reserves, ie in deepstrike reserves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Talys wrote:

 House Griffith wrote:
So where are we at with all this?
Anyone care to post a poll for general concensus?
What does the TO population think? How would they rule this for their respective events?

I think the debate has reached an exhaustive point by now and isn't constructive. We're at NECKBEARDCON 1 here, and no one's winning.

In our local play group, we are allowing drop pod units to disembark and charge. The consensus was pretty much unanimous that this was the intent of the Formation. We don't see it as game breaking, as it's over a thousand points to set up, which makes it an all-your-eggs-in-one-basket strategy for sub 2000 games. If someone wants to play that, have fun.

from the actual dataslate

"once on the ground the squads sergeants triangulate their teleport homers to call additional support. With such logistical support teleport or drop reinforcements should drop on their location with pinpoint precision.."

not sure your group understands the definition of intent.

ultimately it does not matter what I say, or what you say(any of you) unless one of us are the person solely making the rules for a major tournament, as that is what most people go by for rulings anyways.

so I am out.

p.s. I am up for letting anyone measure their teleport homers from an embarked vehicle as long as I can measure to the embarked unit using the exact same rule as it says to/from