I don't see how recruiting children after putting them through some crazy test into the Adeptus Astartes is a good idea. There are tons of issues involved as well as more effective methods. Why? Why?
Why not scan the genes of every newborn baby and choose which one are suitable for geneseeds in the future? Then, the Chapter can separate these babies from their parents (with some compensation, of course) and train them in Space Marine style right away. They have plenty of Chapter serfs, so baby-sitting would not be a problem. They can construct kinder garden-training facilities away from the Fortress Monastery if necessary.
The first word the babies will mutter will be "Emperor". They will shoot their first shot at the age of two. Their toys throughout childhood will be wargears they will use later on. The arena will be their playground. Many will end up dying/killing, pitting each other for survival where the strongest remains and become future Astartes. They can be indoctrinated from such early age that the Chapter becomes everything to them. They don't know their true parents, they don't care their world's tradition, they don't have anything in their background that will make them more "human" and less "Space Marine". They will be extremely loyal, and will care nothing more than completing their missions.
I know the concept is somewhat Sparta-related, but come on. This is the future. There are technologies that can be used to enhance the process.
So why don't the Space Marines recruit this way? It is obviously better.
ImAGeek wrote: So your way still has kids dying, how is it any better than the current way..?
The current way is dumb. Many Space Marines always have some background bs before they enter the chapter that is just meaningless. What is better? Training from the age of 10 or from the age of 0?
OP looking at some of your past threads I often wonder why you stick around for 40k - When you think about it, nothing makes sense in the grimdark 40k universe.
The recruitment of pre pubescent males off of certain planets, or only from certain tribes, put through punishing rituals and trials to kill off 99% leaving the ripe remains to maybe, maybe have a small chance of accepting the genetic therapy which turns a normal boy into bald headed superhuman who will then have a great chance of falling to some kind of defect (which reflects traits of certain chapters) seems legit. They are then equipped to fight with Husqvana hedge trimmers, as prescribed by some book.
It certainly worked when Marines were definitely held at 1000 per chapter and added to the legend - Astartes were legend, their battles doubly so. It is a fitting recruitment process for a warrior brotherhood which is barely thought of or remembered by the Imperium.
In current incarnations it maybe reeks of eighties writing.
ImAGeek wrote: So your way still has kids dying, how is it any better than the current way..?
The current way is dumb. Many Space Marines always have some background bs before they enter the chapter that is just meaningless. What is better? Training from the age of 10 or from the age of 0?
The current way is kinda stupid yeah. But I don't see how yours is any better, you're just starting earlier and then doing the same stuff, they're just younger.
ImAGeek wrote: So your way still has kids dying, how is it any better than the current way..?
The current way is dumb. Many Space Marines always have some background bs before they enter the chapter that is just meaningless. What is better? Training from the age of 10 or from the age of 0?
The current way is kinda stupid yeah. But I don't see how yours is any better, you're just starting earlier and then doing the same stuff, they're just younger.
How is it stupid? They take the cream of the crop, highjack their puberty with gene-seed, and mindscrub and brainswash them into being dogmatic and utterly loyal soldiers with an exceptional degree of brotherhood and "no man gets left behind" mentality.
This is probably the best result you could ever get.
Not to mention at birth and through gene study they cannot judge the mental strength or capacity of possible recruits. The trials not only test the body but also the mental fortitude
The only bit that is stupid, thinking about it, is that they don't have a way of checking someone is eligible for the genetics/implants til they actually try it. The rest does seem just like normal military training just done harder.
The SMs may find that having a human orgin is actually BENIFICAL, hypno training after all gets rid of any problems that might occur.
but yeah the current system's just as good as the previous, and we know some SM chapters basicly have special schools set up to helpm produce ideal recruits. (the Ultramarines come to mind. they conveniantly get to use the left overs as the core of the best PDF in the galaxy)
Failed recruits can be serfs.
They are well trained, loyal and have some benefits of there upgrading. Long as there not too messed up or broken.
Or a servitor if way too messed up. Less waste than just dumping them all.
Yes trials are brutal but only the best make it, and make good marines. If they can survive there training there tough, and smart. Smart is key, marines are often outnumbered, they need to be able to adapt and use everything they can to help level the numbers.
As you have to be into early puberty to being the transformation into an Astartes, letting a culture raise them to that age does many things for the Chapter:
-The cost of raising the child to that point is someone else's problem, not the Chapter's.
-Making the choosing of the possible converts into a special ceremony elevates the Chapter in the eyes of the culture they are recruiting from, by convincing the culture that the Chapter is "honoring" them by choosing the best they have to offer. It keeps them elevated in the eyes of that culture, enhancing compliance with Imperial doctrine, as well as automatically giving them the best of the crop with the least effort. Remember that many Chapters recruit from tribal cultures.
Frankly, anything that the culture would teach the child that would run counter to the goals of the Chapter can be erased with hypnotic-indoctrination, and hell, many of the cultures they raise from out of necessity teach the children the same savage survival values that the Chapters usually want to build upon, anyway.
Essentially, take the Space Wolves, or the Blood Angels. Either of them have recruitment that perfectly suits their purposes, And in Ultramar, you being chosen as a candidate is like being chosen to be a Super-Stormtrooper, considering the methods and established processes.
Corvax explains this a bit in Deliverance Lost (one of the few good parts of that book.)
Basically the reason why SM are not cloned (or selectively bred like you mentioned) is to ensure that their is enough variety in skills, background and experience in the Legions/chapters/etc. to ensure it is sustainable.
If every SM was identical (which would be the result of your idea) then the chapters would become to easy to outsmart, tamper with or would just begin to stagnate.
SM chapter aren't just built for war and are to a certain extent a propaganda tool (FFG's books mentioned that they send measly detachments of SM to warzones or spread rumors of their presence just to drum up morale.)
Bronzefists42 wrote: Corvax explains this a bit in Deliverance Lost (one of the few good parts of that book.)
Basically the reason why SM are not cloned (or selectively bred like you mentioned) is to ensure that their is enough variety in skills, background and experience in the Legions/chapters/etc. to ensure it is sustainable.
If every SM was identical (which would be the result of your idea) then the chapters would become to easy to outsmart, tamper with or would just begin to stagnate.
SM chapter aren't just built for war and are to a certain extent a propaganda tool (FFG's books mentioned that they send measly detachments of SM to warzones or spread rumors of their presence just to drum up morale.)
Ignoring as well that cloning itself is incredibly dangerous, especially in 40k and can lead to more horrible accidents then mere cancer.
jhe90 wrote: Failed recruits can be serfs.
They are well trained, loyal and have some benefits of there upgrading. Long as there not too messed up or broken.
Or a servitor if way too messed up. Less waste than just dumping them all.
Yes trials are brutal but only the best make it, and make good marines. If they can survive there training there tough, and smart. Smart is key, marines are often outnumbered, they need to be able to adapt and use everything they can to help level the numbers.
Knowing that means there must be a ton of serfs.
Along with the numerous families that serve space marines . I wouldn't doubt that many of them are trained for combat just incase of boarding actions. I mean it only makes sense that space marines are not the only people in their large ships they go around.
Infact its one of the reasons why I think there might be Defense forces on all space marine ships to guard the ship crews and space marine armories.
Ignoring as well that cloning itself is incredibly dangerous, especially in 40k and can lead to more horrible accidents then mere cancer.
IE look at why chaos space marines are often killed more often.
Because most Chaos Space Marines are infact clones or templates of older chaos space marines. If my memory serves right.
jhe90 wrote: Failed recruits can be serfs.
They are well trained, loyal and have some benefits of there upgrading. Long as there not too messed up or broken.
Or a servitor if way too messed up. Less waste than just dumping them all.
Yes trials are brutal but only the best make it, and make good marines. If they can survive there training there tough, and smart. Smart is key, marines are often outnumbered, they need to be able to adapt and use everything they can to help level the numbers.
Knowing that means there must be a ton of serfs.
Along with the numerous families that serve space marines . I wouldn't doubt that many of them are trained for combat just incase of boarding actions. I mean it only makes sense that space marines are not the only people in their large ships they go around.
Infact its one of the reasons why I think there might be Defense forces on all space marine ships to guard the ship crews and space marine armories.
Ignoring as well that cloning itself is incredibly dangerous, especially in 40k and can lead to more horrible accidents then mere cancer.
No, they aren't Clones. Fabius however does run Clones, and nothing good comes of them.
IE look at why chaos space marines are often killed more often.
Because most Chaos Space Marines are infact clones or templates of older chaos space marines. If my memory serves right.
AegisGrimm wrote: As you have to be into early puberty to being the transformation into an Astartes, letting a culture raise them to that age does many things for the Chapter:
-The cost of raising the child to that point is someone else's problem, not the Chapter's.
-Making the choosing of the possible converts into a special ceremony elevates the Chapter in the eyes of the culture they are recruiting from, by convincing the culture that the Chapter is "honoring" them by choosing the best they have to offer. It keeps them elevated in the eyes of that culture, enhancing compliance with Imperial doctrine, as well as automatically giving them the best of the crop with the least effort. Remember that many Chapters recruit from tribal cultures.
Frankly, anything that the culture would teach the child that would run counter to the goals of the Chapter can be erased with hypnotic-indoctrination, and hell, many of the cultures they raise from out of necessity teach the children the same savage survival values that the Chapters usually want to build upon, anyway.
Essentially, take the Space Wolves, or the Blood Angels. Either of them have recruitment that perfectly suits their purposes, And in Ultramar, you being chosen as a candidate is like being chosen to be a Super-Stormtrooper, considering the methods and established processes.
You also haave to remember that cultures influence fighting styles and tactical ideas of those new recruits. Allowing for differences in opinion or lifestyle. I mean every astartes is basically completely unique from another Astartes if they are a fleetbound chapter. Take for example the Dark Angels. for a long time many of its recruits were Native American until a certain event that made it so that the Chapter had to branch out to other worlds. They often refered to each other as Cloud Warriors. Or something in a similar vein.
(actually fun fact that is one of my favorite bits of warhammer 40k lore of all time. Apart from the Original Battle for Macraggage.)
No, they aren't Clones. Fabius however does run Clones, and nothing good comes of them.
Wasn't that one of the ideas passed around that is the way how some of the Chaos Legions are keeping their numbers so high? Is through either sorcery or cloning?
AegisGrimm wrote: As you have to be into early puberty to being the transformation into an Astartes, letting a culture raise them to that age does many things for the Chapter:
-The cost of raising the child to that point is someone else's problem, not the Chapter's.
-Making the choosing of the possible converts into a special ceremony elevates the Chapter in the eyes of the culture they are recruiting from, by convincing the culture that the Chapter is "honoring" them by choosing the best they have to offer. It keeps them elevated in the eyes of that culture, enhancing compliance with Imperial doctrine, as well as automatically giving them the best of the crop with the least effort. Remember that many Chapters recruit from tribal cultures.
Frankly, anything that the culture would teach the child that would run counter to the goals of the Chapter can be erased with hypnotic-indoctrination, and hell, many of the cultures they raise from out of necessity teach the children the same savage survival values that the Chapters usually want to build upon, anyway.
Essentially, take the Space Wolves, or the Blood Angels. Either of them have recruitment that perfectly suits their purposes, And in Ultramar, you being chosen as a candidate is like being chosen to be a Super-Stormtrooper, considering the methods and established processes.
You also haave to remember that cultures influence fighting styles and tactical ideas of those new recruits. Allowing for differences in opinion or lifestyle. I mean every astartes is basically completely unique from another Astartes if they are a fleetbound chapter. Take for example the Dark Angels. for a long time many of its recruits were Native American until a certain event that made it so that the Chapter had to branch out to other worlds. They often refered to each other as Cloud Warriors. Or something in a similar vein.
(actually fun fact that is one of my favorite bits of warhammer 40k lore of all time. Apart from the Original Battle for Macraggage.)
No, they aren't Clones. Fabius however does run Clones, and nothing good comes of them.
Wasn't that one of the ideas passed around that is the way how some of the Chaos Legions are keeping their numbers so high? Is through either sorcery or cloning?
CSM's raise their numbers the same way their loyalists counterparts do, only they use slaves instead of serfs.
One really stupid thing is growing the next set of geneseed in the body of the marine.
There's no problem with growing the geneseed in slaves when founding a new Chapter. It doesn't produce weaker marines, physically or mentally. Why do they believe it's somehow beneficial to leave the most important organs in the body of someone who continually exposes them to danger? He's going to war, getting shot at with heavy weapons, exposed to every kind of poison and radiation. And the Warp too while moving between worlds.
Because the geneseed that matures in a Space Marine's body is believed to pass on some of the skills and knowledge of its previous host when passed on to a new Marine.
CSM also steal gene seed from loyalist chapters and implant them into people. Huron Blackheart raided a fortress monastery on the Marines Errant world of Vilamus and stole their gene seed from them to make more Red Corsairs.
AegisGrimm wrote: As you have to be into early puberty to being the transformation into an Astartes, letting a culture raise them to that age does many things for the Chapter:
-The cost of raising the child to that point is someone else's problem, not the Chapter's.
-Making the choosing of the possible converts into a special ceremony elevates the Chapter in the eyes of the culture they are recruiting from, by convincing the culture that the Chapter is "honoring" them by choosing the best they have to offer. It keeps them elevated in the eyes of that culture, enhancing compliance with Imperial doctrine, as well as automatically giving them the best of the crop with the least effort. Remember that many Chapters recruit from tribal cultures.
Frankly, anything that the culture would teach the child that would run counter to the goals of the Chapter can be erased with hypnotic-indoctrination, and hell, many of the cultures they raise from out of necessity teach the children the same savage survival values that the Chapters usually want to build upon, anyway.
Essentially, take the Space Wolves, or the Blood Angels. Either of them have recruitment that perfectly suits their purposes, And in Ultramar, you being chosen as a candidate is like being chosen to be a Super-Stormtrooper, considering the methods and established processes.
You also haave to remember that cultures influence fighting styles and tactical ideas of those new recruits. Allowing for differences in opinion or lifestyle. I mean every astartes is basically completely unique from another Astartes if they are a fleetbound chapter. Take for example the Dark Angels. for a long time many of its recruits were Native American until a certain event that made it so that the Chapter had to branch out to other worlds. They often refered to each other as Cloud Warriors. Or something in a similar vein.
(actually fun fact that is one of my favorite bits of warhammer 40k lore of all time. Apart from the Original Battle for Macraggage.)
No, they aren't Clones. Fabius however does run Clones, and nothing good comes of them.
Wasn't that one of the ideas passed around that is the way how some of the Chaos Legions are keeping their numbers so high? Is through either sorcery or cloning?
That's the earliest Dark Angels, They were retconned into a Medieval Knight Brotherhood instead of Native Americans.
It doesn't make sense if you expect Space Marines to be some sort of cost-effective, mass producible tool of warfare. Which they weren't, even in the Great Crusade era. If you think of them as avatars and champions of humanity, meant to both inspire heroism (in allies) and terror (in allies AND enemies) in equal measure - eg basically psychological tools (which can be of more value than one might think, given the nature of the warp and its connections to the thoughts and emotions of living beings that have a warp soul) it makes a sort of (albeit horrible) sense. Not unlike the Spartan-IIs in Halo, really.
Being combat effective, superhuman, nigh-unkillable and all that stuff (as well as the distinctive weapons and armor) is part of the image just as much as the rumors and stories of the awesome and terrible things they do. If you want 'cost effective supersoldiers', you'd go with skitarii (or at least you would, if the AdMech let you.) or power armored sororitas, or something else.
That's the earliest Dark Angels, They were retconned into a Medieval Knight Brotherhood instead of Native Americans.
I know. Thats why I don't like the newer lore. A space marine chapter especially a fleet based chapter will be made up of many different cultures.
true but they'd also have something to unify them. a Knightly brotherhood makes a LOT of sense in that regard, as it's not nesscarily a complete new culture.
That's the earliest Dark Angels, They were retconned into a Medieval Knight Brotherhood instead of Native Americans.
I know. Thats why I don't like the newer lore. A space marine chapter especially a fleet based chapter will be made up of many different cultures.
true but they'd also have something to unify them. a Knightly brotherhood makes a LOT of sense in that regard, as it's not nesscarily a complete new culture.
They may be bound by brotherhood but different cultures allows for different tactics and fighting styles.
bibotot wrote: I don't see how recruiting children after putting them through some crazy test into the Adeptus Astartes is a good idea. There are tons of issues involved as well as more effective methods. Why? Why?
Why not scan the genes of every newborn baby and choose which one are suitable for geneseeds in the future? Then, the Chapter can separate these babies from their parents (with some compensation, of course) and train them in Space Marine style right away. They have plenty of Chapter serfs, so baby-sitting would not be a problem. They can construct kinder garden-training facilities away from the Fortress Monastery if necessary.
The first word the babies will mutter will be "Emperor". They will shoot their first shot at the age of two. Their toys throughout childhood will be wargears they will use later on. The arena will be their playground. Many will end up dying/killing, pitting each other for survival where the strongest remains and become future Astartes. They can be indoctrinated from such early age that the Chapter becomes everything to them. They don't know their true parents, they don't care their world's tradition, they don't have anything in their background that will make them more "human" and less "Space Marine". They will be extremely loyal, and will care nothing more than completing their missions.
I know the concept is somewhat Sparta-related, but come on. This is the future. There are technologies that can be used to enhance the process.
So why don't the Space Marines recruit this way? It is obviously better.
Some already do this. What you describe is the recruitment process of the red scorpions. I don't see any reason some other chapters might not do something similar and recruit along the lines of Kurt Russell's soldier movie. Then again, living in, and being a part of a culture and mythos of your homeworld does hold a certain degree of importance.
By the way, on a point - this is 'the future', sure. But it's a very backwards, regressed, haphazard and extremely technophobic one. A lot of the technology is misunderstood, feared, hated,and bound up so completely in dogma, ritual, rites, and mystery, and frankly, is kind of pointless.
Most Space Marine Chapters are, basically, techno-barbarians living on planets that don't possess digital watches and still think fire is a pretty neat idea.
Psienesis wrote: Most Space Marine Chapters are, basically, techno-barbarians living on planets that don't possess digital watches and still think fire is a pretty neat idea.
That really matters on the chapter though. If I remember right, the ultramarines recruit from noble houses, the imperial fists recruit from hiveworlds quite often. many Space marine chapters recruit from city worlds or knight worlds.
That has been proven false Psienesis sorry
Most space marine chapters are fleet based and recruit from many worlds. And not all of them are like that.
It is a myth that they pick up recruits from non-city worlds. Infact the criteria for a space marine is one who pasts the test and presents themselves to the chapter.
Hive Worlds are still fairly low-tech for 99% of the population. Unless you're the wealthiest of the wealthy, the only gene-screening you're getting is when the Arbites and the Sisters show up with a kill-squad to make sure your genes are still sufficiently "human" to avoid purging you on the spot.
The Fists, specifically, are recruiting from those on a Hive World finding regular combat experience... so most-likely the under-Hive, especially on both Terra and Necromunda. Inwit is a world poorly-classified, noted as having ice-tribes but also ice-hives, which might make it a Hive World, or might make it a Feral World with a Hive World's population.
Most space marine chapters are fleet based and recruit from many worlds
Ehm, no, the vast minority are fleet-based. Most have a world, or a chain of worlds, they recruit from, using one as a center of power for the Chapter.
Psienesis wrote: Hive Worlds are still fairly low-tech for 99% of the population. Unless you're the wealthiest of the wealthy, the only gene-screening you're getting is when the Arbites and the Sisters show up with a kill-squad to make sure your genes are still sufficiently "human" to avoid purging you on the spot.
The Fists, specifically, are recruiting from those on a Hive World finding regular combat experience... so most-likely the under-Hive, especially on both Terra and Necromunda. Inwit is a world poorly-classified, noted as having ice-tribes but also ice-hives, which might make it a Hive World, or might make it a Feral World with a Hive World's population.
Most space marine chapters are fleet based and recruit from many worlds
Ehm, no, the vast minority are fleet-based. Most have a world, or a chain of worlds, they recruit from, using one as a center of power for the Chapter.
Wait can you post a source for that? For me to reference? I didn't know that.
You would think ever since they are space marines they would prefer to be fleet based.
i remember that the are many levels to a hive. And that there are business districts and workering areas and etc. And that as long as you stay in the safe parts you should be okay. The 1% of the population that has all the high high tech stuff are nobles.
And that its actually seperated into a tier system very similar to the way it was for the dark ages.
Wait can you post a source for that? For me to reference? I didn't know that.
Source for what? The bit about Hive Worlds? You explained it yourself... it's a tiered structure reminiscent of the Dark Ages. Wealthy people on top, descending down to the desperately poor and destitute at the bottom, who might be living in a world of perpetual darkness amidst toxic spills and waste run-off. 40K, as a setting, isn't particularly high-tech for the vast majority of its population. Even leaving Feral Worlds aside for the moment, most people on Imperial Worlds live pretty much like we did in the Western World in the 1980s (especially if you lived in Thatcher's Britain), with the occasional visitation (like, once a century, if that frequently) of a space-ship from offworld. Hives? The only thing high-tech about a Hive for most of its populace is the fact you live inside a giant, man-made construction. Otherwise, you're working a 9-to-5 for very little money and a daily food ration.
The bit about the Imperial Fists? It's basically encapsulated on their Lexicanum entries, but also gathered from the fact that Terra is their Homeworld but they also recruit from Necromunda and Inwit... which aren't even in the Sol system.
There is nothing wrong IMO. Only the Strongest and the most hardened will be able to survive this expensive, time consuming ritual. Resources that are stretched thin.
The imperium cannot afford to waste time. For the SM are needed everywhere.
Oh yes, the way that Space Marines are recruited is kind of dumb. They claim to take from the best, but they really don't. They take from the best out of those that are male, generically compatible, of the right age, and of the right place and the right time, whom are lucky enough not to die during the unnecessarily deadly training, meaning a lot of highly qualified candidates get skipped over for various reasons, and if those reasons did not make Space Marines skip over them, Space Marines would actually be better and more skilled than they are now.
GW's authors think they sound cool though so that's what they do.
It was written and has been embellished to appeal to the young males fantasy of being chosen over everyone of his peers for something awesome..and feeds into the superhero outsider fantasy of that impulse..while dipping into warrior cultures from actual history..Spartans..Zulu..etc
And yes its dumb..clumsy..wasteful and not really suitable for any long term attrition warfare..(which they always assert is not what the astartes are for..but in BL seem to do..all the time.)
Its..grim..its dark..its warhammer.
And has gotten more that way as the years go by.
Hell there was a time when the ultra marines had a half eldar librarian...lol
Someone alredy pointed it but i think i can emmend:
Each chapter have tis own culture, coming from a specific part of the galaxy. With this culture comes tactics preferences, markings, terms and practicing rituals. Recruitment is a ritual, so it is not impossible for some chapters to actually use something like that (or better stuff).
Yet, a lot of technology is just "lost", it maybe even be available, but people just dont know how it work. Gene scans area available? Hell they could even be total health stations (like the one from start trekk), but all their users know is how to point the stuff, wait the red light go "on" and scream "mutation" while puting the flamer to work...
Think about it: if you could gene scan and select candidates like that, why not also make assisted reproduction? Why not clone the best soldiers around? Breeding programs could also be worthwhile...
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Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: Hell there was a time when the ultra marines had a half eldar librarian...lol
And you had dwarfs in space... Should have been good times.
Melissia wrote: Oh yes, the way that Space Marines are recruited is kind of dumb. They claim to take from the best, but they really don't. They take from the best out of those that are male, generically compatible, of the right age, and of the right place and the right time, whom are lucky enough not to die during the unnecessarily deadly training, meaning a lot of highly qualified candidates get skipped over for various reasons, and if those reasons did not make Space Marines skip over them, Space Marines would actually be better and more skilled than they are now.
GW's authors think they sound cool though so that's what they do.
I agree with you that it is obvious an self insertion fantasy but honestly it seems like something that started out as a dark and disturbing idea (a young boy in a good mental and physical state who manages to survive a series of cruel and unusual rituals is rewarded with being turned into a monstrous war machine through bizarre and arcane sciences)
Then it was GW-ifiedTM.
Also part of the reason why the HH Legions were so big was because they eschewed most of these ridiculous practices and made you a full SM almost immediately.
Basically everything wrong with the SM chapters is rectified by the Legions.
The whole idea of recruiting children as Space Marines is idiotic anyways. It makes no sense from a logical viewpoint. As Space Marines, you would want the very best and strongest specimens of a planet. Children are not strong, you can not test them to the same extent as you could an adult. Children are also still in development, and there is no way to tell how they will develop. Therefore there is no way to ensure you actually get the most suitable recruits.
The Space Wolves recruit in a much more logical way by only recruiting from the best warriors on their planet that have proven themselves in battle. That means that a SW recruits are already much more capable than those of other chapters even before they became Space Marines. No wonder the SW are marines+1
According to the game called Chapter Master a thousand Recruits are recruited from one world every year. But very few recruits even become nephoytes, only 20% make it to neophyte so around 20-30 nephoytes are successfully train in 4 years.
This is a constant process so in eight years there are around 2000 recruits but only 20% of that are successfully made into space marines.
It is either that space marines have gotten sloppier with their recruiting of nephoytes
But this is only my run through of Games like Chapter Master and some vague references in the horus heresy and space marine books.
It could be a lot more successful and better if they rediscovered the way they did it back during the crusades/ Or better yet they put their chapter at around 10,000 instead of a thousand.
Iron_Captain wrote: The Space Wolves recruit in a much more logical way by only recruiting from the best warriors on their planet that have proven themselves in battle. That means that a SW recruits are already much more capable than those of other chapters even before they became Space Marines. No wonder the SW are marines+1
Even SW recruit boys entering the puberty... Its only that life in Fenris is cruel and mercyless to the point of making all the selection by itself...
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Asherian Command wrote: It could be a lot more successful and better if they rediscovered the way they did it back during the crusades/ Or better yet they put their chapter at around 10,000 instead of a thousand.
So they could hold enough power to destroy the galaxy by themselves? The limit in numbers is not a logistical thing, it have the good reason of evictin the Horus Heresy II...
They apparently do the same thing they have done at the crusades, its only the geneseeds they have wich bring trouble. See the Ultramarines (and Sucessors), before the Tyranid wars, they where practically a dozen Legions, filled with recruits...
One thing to keep in mind is that DH confirms virtually all members of the Imperium live pathetically short lives.
25 is described as being "Ancient one" on most planets, even Forge Worlds.
Judging by that a person just entering puberty is probably the peak of human life (as they will die a horrible death/sickness/injury around 20 or less) by Imperium standards.
Bronzefists42 wrote: One thing to keep in mind is that DH confirms virtually all members of the Imperium live pathetically short lives.
25 is described as being "Ancient one" on most planets, even Forge Worlds.
Judging by that a person just entering puberty is probably the peak of human life (as they will die a horrible death/sickness/injury around 20 or less) by Imperium standards.
Umm...
Most Tech priests lives are artificially increased to hundreds if not a thousand years.
Nobles also have this as well.
Also could you cite that 25 years thing. For a normal worker in the forges. Yes definitely.
So they could hold enough power to destroy the galaxy by themselves? The limit in numbers is not a logistical thing, it have the good reason of evictin the Horus Heresy II...
Well logistically it is impossible to seperate an entire army of adeptus astartes. A thousand is really small 200k thats huge. But ten thousand is barely even a legion. The Smallest legion the Thousand sons were around 10k
Iron_Captain wrote: The whole idea of recruiting children as Space Marines is idiotic anyways. It makes no sense from a logical viewpoint. As Space Marines, you would want the very best and strongest specimens of a planet. Children are not strong, you can not test them to the same extent as you could an adult. Children are also still in development, and there is no way to tell how they will develop. Therefore there is no way to ensure you actually get the most suitable recruits.
The Space Wolves recruit in a much more logical way by only recruiting from the best warriors on their planet that have proven themselves in battle. That means that a SW recruits are already much more capable than those of other chapters even before they became Space Marines. No wonder the SW are marines+1
They NEED children and teens because they need to hitch a ride onto the puberty of the male body while it's still growing for the augmentations to take effect.
Iron_Captain wrote: The whole idea of recruiting children as Space Marines is idiotic anyways. It makes no sense from a logical viewpoint. As Space Marines, you would want the very best and strongest specimens of a planet. Children are not strong, you can not test them to the same extent as you could an adult. Children are also still in development, and there is no way to tell how they will develop. Therefore there is no way to ensure you actually get the most suitable recruits.
The Space Wolves recruit in a much more logical way by only recruiting from the best warriors on their planet that have proven themselves in battle. That means that a SW recruits are already much more capable than those of other chapters even before they became Space Marines. No wonder the SW are marines+1
They NEED children and teens because they need to hitch a ride onto the puberty of the male body while it's still growing for the augmentations to take effect.
Correct 14 year olds or prepubescent teens are often the targets of space marines recruitment.
That whole BS about recruited from the best warriors is untrue.
They are recruited so that space marine genes and physiology is implanted to allow the human body to develop into a space marine. The space marine is basically learning while this technology is put on him, learning tactics and discipline and being educated of the gaxaly and history of the chapter.
Basically when you become a space marine you are trained as knight and thus you are given land and titles and superior education. Being educated to such a degree that makes mockery of all educational forms in existance.
The implantation process takes 4 years. But a space marine is not on an operational table for 4 years straight, (Except for the blood angels and successors who do it rather uniquely)
Space marines go through training and learning. And appliance. Once the tests are complete they must go through more tests to see if they are capable to survive with their new skills but they aren't just dropped and told to run they have a few years to adjust to their new settings finally at the age 20 they are able to join the neophyte stage.
Dark Heresy has a set of rolls for each home world, adding 1d10 to each of these numbers to determine age-- this is an optional thing.
For Feral Worlds, Warrior begins at 15 (keep in mind, add +1d10 to each of these numbers), Old One begins at 25. For Hive Worlds, Nipper is 15, Adult is 25, Old Timer is 35. on an Imperial World, the ages are 20 for "stripling", 30 for "mature", 40 for "veteran". Voidborn is 15, 20, and 50.
Keep in mind, these aren't necessarily elderly ages, as noted by the "veteran" name for Imperial Worlds.
This is page 30 of the core rulebook. I see no stats for Forge Worlds or the others in Inquisitor's Handbook.
Melissia wrote: Dark Heresy has a set of rolls for each home world, adding 1d10 to each of these numbers to determine age-- this is an optional thing.
For Feral Worlds, Warrior begins at 15 (keep in mind, add +1d10 to each of these numbers), Old One begins at 25. For Hive Worlds, Nipper is 15, Adult is 25, Old Timer is 35. on an Imperial World, the ages are 20 for "stripling", 30 for "mature", 40 for "veteran". Voidborn is 15, 20, and 50.
Keep in mind, these aren't necessarily elderly ages, as noted by the "veteran" name for Imperial Worlds.
This is page 30 of the core rulebook. I see no stats for Forge Worlds or the others in Inquisitor's Handbook.
Interesting. Is that lifespan or age of recruitment for space marines.
(OH wait looking back that is what it looks like is implied)
I am interested in seeing how much time is taken in training a Space Marine to be a Space Marine.
Melissia wrote: Dark Heresy has a set of rolls for each home world, adding 1d10 to each of these numbers to determine age-- this is an optional thing.
For Feral Worlds, Warrior begins at 15 (keep in mind, add +1d10 to each of these numbers), Old One begins at 25. For Hive Worlds, Nipper is 15, Adult is 25, Old Timer is 35. on an Imperial World, the ages are 20 for "stripling", 30 for "mature", 40 for "veteran". Voidborn is 15, 20, and 50.
Keep in mind, these aren't necessarily elderly ages, as noted by the "veteran" name for Imperial Worlds.
This is page 30 of the core rulebook. I see no stats for Forge Worlds or the others in Inquisitor's Handbook.
I imagine those ages particularly with hive worlds, are going to apply more to the lower classes then anything. Life expectancy has always struck me as being, like everything else in the IoM as being extremely stratified
Melissia wrote: Dark Heresy has a set of rolls for each home world, adding 1d10 to each of these numbers to determine age-- this is an optional thing.
For Feral Worlds, Warrior begins at 15 (keep in mind, add +1d10 to each of these numbers), Old One begins at 25. For Hive Worlds, Nipper is 15, Adult is 25, Old Timer is 35. on an Imperial World, the ages are 20 for "stripling", 30 for "mature", 40 for "veteran". Voidborn is 15, 20, and 50.
Keep in mind, these aren't necessarily elderly ages, as noted by the "veteran" name for Imperial Worlds.
This is page 30 of the core rulebook. I see no stats for Forge Worlds or the others in Inquisitor's Handbook.
I imagine those ages particularly with hive worlds, are going to apply more to the lower classes then anything. Life expectancy has always struck me as being, like everything else in the IoM as being extremely stratified
Matters where you are in the class system in the imperium.
Nobles live for a few hundred years, middle class live for quite a while.
You don't even have to test the children, test the parents. Breed them like race horses and have who bloodlines who have given dozens of children to a chapter.
Mr Nobody wrote: You don't even have to test the children, test the parents. Breed them like race horses and have who bloodlines who have given dozens of children to a chapter.
Well the tests are more of willpower and skill.
There are no astartes with mental issues that plague modern day society.
I think testing them is helpful I think they just need to decrease their standards and just recruit a large amount of men.
Mr Nobody wrote: You don't even have to test the children, test the parents. Breed them like race horses and have who bloodlines who have given dozens of children to a chapter.
Well the tests are more of willpower and skill.
There are no astartes with mental issues that plague modern day society.
I think testing them is helpful I think they just need to decrease their standards and just recruit a large amount of men.
generally speaking the exact standards vary from chapter to chapter. so thats a hard statement to make.
Mr Nobody wrote: You don't even have to test the children, test the parents. Breed them like race horses and have who bloodlines who have given dozens of children to a chapter.
Well the tests are more of willpower and skill.
There are no astartes with mental issues that plague modern day society.
I think testing them is helpful I think they just need to decrease their standards and just recruit a large amount of men.
generally speaking the exact standards vary from chapter to chapter. so thats a hard statement to make.
Most the tests are based on that. The only ones that are outside of strength was knowledge from the Blood Ravens.
Mr Nobody wrote: You don't even have to test the children, test the parents. Breed them like race horses and have who bloodlines who have given dozens of children to a chapter.
Well the tests are more of willpower and skill.
There are no astartes with mental issues that plague modern day society.
I think testing them is helpful I think they just need to decrease their standards and just recruit a large amount of men.
generally speaking the exact standards vary from chapter to chapter. so thats a hard statement to make.
Most the tests are based on that. The only ones that are outside of strength was knowledge from the Blood Ravens.
that we know of, thing is there are something like 1000 space marine chapters each has their own recruiting rules and standards.
Ultramarines for example just skim the cream off the military academies of Ultramar. space wolves recruit proven warriors from the battlefields of fenris etc.
I suspect certin requirements are universal sure, but I suspect each chapter is ALSO looking for a "certain special something"
The Space Eugenicists. Their home planet is primarily a breeding program.
Consider that genes alone aren't the predictor for everything and that the Imperium doesn't necessarily have/understand perfect gene sequencing/reading technology.
also, the Marines are loathe to do anything that messes with a recruiting pool proven to produce good Marine stock. this is presumably exceptionally true with regards to the 1st founding chapters
Does Space Marine recruitment was supposed to make sense in the first place? I think we would all say that orks philosophy and technologie makes no sense, but that's the purpose. Space Marine recruitment is uselessly violent and difficult and is design to create the ultimate warrior. The idea is to show how deranged the Imperium and the Space Marine are. They recruit surviving little boys from the worst hell hole in the galaxy, make them do ridiculous tests before transforming them in giant brutes in power armor ready do destroy anything in their way. On paper it sound like a good idea to recruit great soldiers but when you inject reality this is what you got.
They recruit little boys from worlds were malnutrition, polution and hostile ecosystem or social structure produce generation of starving, weak children with many developpement problem. They were raised to survive in a world were everything is more powerful then them by scavenging, hiding and hoping that they would live to see another day. Harsh conditions doesn't make men grow into hero, it makes them into vermin and rats. It's those boys that are transformed into killing machines with the miracle of arcane science.
Ironically, only Ultramarines seems to have good recruitment tactics (that and maybe Grey Knights). I must admit that with the miriad of Chapters and diversity, they are certainly far from beeing the only ones. The cliché of the feral or feudal world recruitment ground is very popular thow.
epronovost wrote: Does Space Marine recruitment was supposed to make sense in the first place? I think we would all say that orks philosophy and technologie makes no sense, but that's the purpose. Space Marine recruitment is uselessly violent and difficult and is design to create the ultimate warrior. The idea is to show how deranged the Imperium and the Space Marine are. They recruit surviving little boys from the worst hell hole in the galaxy, make them do ridiculous tests before transforming them in giant brutes in power armor ready do destroy anything in their way. On paper it sound like a good idea to recruit great soldiers but when you inject reality this is what you got.
They recruit little boys from worlds were malnutrition, polution and hostile ecosystem or social structure produce generation of starving, weak children with many developpement problem. They were raised to survive in a world were everything is more powerful then them by scavenging, hiding and hoping that they would live to see another day. Harsh conditions doesn't make men grow into hero, it makes them into vermin and rats. It's those boys that are transformed into killing machines with the miracle of arcane science.
Ironically, only Ultramarines seems to have good recruitment tactics (that and maybe Grey Knights). I must admit that with the miriad of Chapters and diversity, they are certainly far from beeing the only ones. The cliché of the feral or feudal world recruitment ground is very popular thow.
I made that point (paragraphs 1-2) a bit earlier in the thread but you phrased it a lot better.
Imperial fists recruit all over the place (including necromunda.)
ImAGeek wrote: The only bit that is stupid, thinking about it, is that they don't have a way of checking someone is eligible for the genetics/implants til they actually try it. The rest does seem just like normal military training just done harder.
Thats not true. They undergo a massive number of tests before they start the implantation process to ensure that they are compatible, but like anything the process is not perfect. The implants can still be rejected even if the host is compatible.
People reject compatible organ transplants all the time. Just because its compatible doesn't mean its guaranteed to work.
As for why they wait till puberty, its because that is the time when the body is most receptive to the changes that Astartification causes. There is little more training you could accomplish by getting another 10ish years of indoctrination. The 8-10 they receive before becoming a full marine is plenty.
I just don't think that it is acceptable that Space Marines recruit a bunch of people without knowing anything about their competent, their loyalty, their fitness and whether the geneseed will grow in them or now. It's a complete waste.
Instead, they can contact governments of planets and force them to carry out tests for all the children of their world themselves. Those strongest, with highest IQ, most loyal to the Emperor and has genetic code suitable for Chapter's due will be chosen and sent to the Astartes. Being chosen by the Space Marines should be considered an honor, and the children and their parents will do everything to prepare.
epronovost wrote: Does Space Marine recruitment was supposed to make sense in the first place? I think we would all say that orks philosophy and technologie makes no sense, but that's the purpose. Space Marine recruitment is uselessly violent and difficult and is design to create the ultimate warrior. The idea is to show how deranged the Imperium and the Space Marine are. They recruit surviving little boys from the worst hell hole in the galaxy, make them do ridiculous tests before transforming them in giant brutes in power armor ready do destroy anything in their way. On paper it sound like a good idea to recruit great soldiers but when you inject reality this is what you got.
They recruit little boys from worlds were malnutrition, polution and hostile ecosystem or social structure produce generation of starving, weak children with many developpement problem. They were raised to survive in a world were everything is more powerful then them by scavenging, hiding and hoping that they would live to see another day. Harsh conditions doesn't make men grow into hero, it makes them into vermin and rats. It's those boys that are transformed into killing machines with the miracle of arcane science.
Ironically, only Ultramarines seems to have good recruitment tactics (that and maybe Grey Knights). I must admit that with the miriad of Chapters and diversity, they are certainly far from beeing the only ones. The cliché of the feral or feudal world recruitment ground is very popular thow.
A lot of what you said is just plain not true. Every Astartes Chapter has different recruiting methods. The Dark Angels recruit from mostly feral worlds with Shamanistic cultures, where the populations are low and technology is almost nonexistent. This way, they don't have to worry about recruiting the kind of Vermin you described. The Space Wolves watch the warriors on Fenris and select the heroes from amongst them and then induct them into the Space Wolves. I HIGHLY doubt that there are any SM Chapters that recruit from the kind of population you just described. If you will, please name at least one.
Also, every Chapter trains its recruits differently. For instance, the Space Wolves generally only give around 3 years of training to their recruits before they become Blood Claws. Over this time, they are trained almost solely in hand-to-hand combat, CC weapons, survival, and teamwork/ pack mentality. After this, they spend are implanted with the organs and Geneseed and Canis Helix and locked up for several months while the Gene-seed matures and they learn to resist the urge to Wolf out. After this, they begin training with small arms, power armor, etc. but are still almost immediately inducted into the Blood Claws, where they receive the rest of their training while also being combat-ready should a Great Company need fresh meat.
I think I wasn't very clear or you simply didn't really read my post correctly. Here is the most important sentence of my post and it SUPPORT your opinion.
«I must admit that with the miriad of Chapters and diversity, they are certainly far from beeing the only ones.» (talking about Space Marine with good recruitment technics)
My only objection was to recruit from low tech world because condition are so poor that they produce human who had to suffer smallpox, rachitism, polio, jaundice, chickenpox (a deadly disease in a low hygiene society like those of feral world) and that's not counting malnutrition, So yes it seems that Dark Angel recruit in worlds were the average size of a healthy adult male is 1,60 meter (about 5,5 foot) and in much less combative state than your average modern men. But then again these are fantasy world so anything goes in the end.
I think I wasn't very clear or you simply didn't really read my post correctly. Here is the most important sentence of my post and it SUPPORT your opinion.
«I must admit that with the miriad of Chapters and diversity, they are certainly far from beeing the only ones.» (talking about Space Marine with good recruitment technics)
My only objection was to recruit from low tech world because condition are so poor that they produce human who had to suffer smallpox, rachitism, polio, jaundice, chickenpox (a deadly disease in a low hygiene society like those of feral world) and that's not counting malnutrition, So yes it seems that Dark Angel recruit in worlds were the average size of a healthy adult male is 1,60 meter (about 5,5 foot) and in much less combative state than your average modern men. But then again these are fantasy world so anything goes in the end.
They also recruit from several worlds as well. Not just deathworlds.
Imperial Fists recruit from Terra, Necromunda and several other worlds.
The Raven Guard recruit specifically from Nocturne.
Iron Hands recruit from techno barbarians.
Salamanders recruit from the villages that are apparently quite advanced.
Its quite interesting. There are alot f chapters that don't do what the dark angels do.
There are a number of advantages to recruiting from a feral world.
1) The recruits will already have been accustomed to fighting and a difficult lifestyle.
2) Weak recruits will already have died.
3) Its a little easier to convince the primitives to give up their children to the "messengers of the gods" then it is to organize a large scale planetary search wasting the resources of the Imperium to do something unnecessary.
Also, a feral world will NOT actually have worse conditions or hygiene than your other options. People who are living a nomadic hunter-gatherer life style will actually be quite healthy. They're not living in the squalor which breeds disease, they'll also have a pretty darn healthy diet.
Thats much healthier than your typical underhive dweller or someone living in the equivalent of the middle ages.
Just because they have primitive technology doesn't mean they're necessarily healthier. Modern society is healthy despite the fact we live bunched together. If you don't live like that, then even without modern medicine you can eliminate a lot of diseases.
Grey Templar wrote: There are a number of advantages to recruiting from a feral world.
1) The recruits will already have been accustomed to fighting and a difficult lifestyle.
2) Weak recruits will already have died.
3) Its a little easier to convince the primitives to give up their children to the "messengers of the gods" then it is to organize a large scale planetary search wasting the resources of the Imperium to do something unnecessary.
Also, a feral world will NOT actually have worse conditions or hygiene than your other options. People who are living a nomadic hunter-gatherer life style will actually be quite healthy. They're not living in the squalor which breeds disease, they'll also have a pretty darn healthy diet.
Thats much healthier than your typical underhive dweller or someone living in the equivalent of the middle ages.
Just because they have primitive technology doesn't mean they're necessarily healthier. Modern society is healthy despite the fact we live bunched together. If you don't live like that, then even without modern medicine you can eliminate a lot of diseases.
The Imperium does not approach things from a purely rational, efficient, or scientific perspective. Remember it is a theocracy and religious/spiritual elements factor into its ideology and decision making.
The trials Chapters put candidates through are more than just physical trials but trials of their spirit (and by that I don't mean something that can be measured on psychological tests). Remember this is an Imperium that views enduring pain and suffering to be spiritually uplifting or purifying.
The physical aspects of the candidates are clearly only part of the story. For example, the Blood Angels recruit from essentially the starved nomadic feral children of an irradiated toxic wasteland, who by all rights should make for horrible soldiers given their likely poor state of health. Yet somehow the Marine creation process can transform these children into physically robust and healthy Marines, so clearly it isn't just purely the physical attributes that are being tested. I would say it is that "will to live" and keep on going no matter what that they look for, and which the Imperium views as more likely to occur in children from disadvantaged environments such as death worlds and the toxic slums of an underhive.
Mr. Burning wrote: OP looking at some of your past threads I often wonder why you stick around for 40k
Exalted for truth.
OP, You don't see me going to GTA forums and saying that it's the worst game series ever. (which isn't true anyways. Assassins creed is the worst, GTA gets 2nd place)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the best reason for the way recruiting is now is because it tests the persons character, once they're old enough to have any developed.
And I think Dark Angels Pre-Heresy had survival rate up to the upper 90 percentile? Someone fact check that, it's been a while since I'd read it.
epronovost wrote: Does Space Marine recruitment was supposed to make sense in the first place? I think we would all say that orks philosophy and technologie makes no sense, but that's the purpose. Space Marine recruitment is uselessly violent and difficult and is design to create the ultimate warrior. The idea is to show how deranged the Imperium and the Space Marine are. They recruit surviving little boys from the worst hell hole in the galaxy, make them do ridiculous tests before transforming them in giant brutes in power armor ready do destroy anything in their way. On paper it sound like a good idea to recruit great soldiers but when you inject reality this is what you got.
They recruit little boys from worlds were malnutrition, polution and hostile ecosystem or social structure produce generation of starving, weak children with many developpement problem. They were raised to survive in a world were everything is more powerful then them by scavenging, hiding and hoping that they would live to see another day. Harsh conditions doesn't make men grow into hero, it makes them into vermin and rats. It's those boys that are transformed into killing machines with the miracle of arcane science.
Ironically, only Ultramarines seems to have good recruitment tactics (that and maybe Grey Knights). I must admit that with the miriad of Chapters and diversity, they are certainly far from beeing the only ones. The cliché of the feral or feudal world recruitment ground is very popular thow.
I i instead of making them vermin, it makes them survivors. Men who can and will do whatever it is they have to. After their training, and with some help from conditioning, you have the perfect template for the space marine. A hardened to the core superhuman killing machine who is also a genius.
I must admit your point 3 is very compeling and I haven't thought about it. Managing Feral and other low tech worlds has its advantages. It's cheap and easy, locals are very loyal and they may even actively try to provied you with good recruits without any other incentives. Just for that, I would say you are right on the recruitment of Space Marine. It's not as dumb as I thought. I was wrong
In all fairness thought, I must mention the following point for educationnal purpose ( I am an history teacher I do that a lot, sorry.).
Nomadic hunter-gatherer have terrible life conditions. They suffer systematically from malnutrition at one point or another. Their diet can be good during summer and automn in certain area, but in winter or ecologicaly poor environment, it's terrible. Hygene condition in nomadic camps are a bit better than the worst hamlet of the pre-industrial era or squalors of modern city but not by much. You still defacate in a hole not so far from your tent and you sleep on the floor where all kinds of parasites and scavangers will happily visit you during your sleep (beds were invented to solve that major health problem). You also find yourself, more often than not, sleeping all bunched up together with your tribesmate for protection and sometime warmth. Rain, storms, cold or hot weather can be deadly and bring disease. Without artificial irrigation, even short drought can force you to starve. You can't make much reserves when there is plenty of everything so when you get unlucky, you suffer a lot more. Nomads never were very numerous because of their incredible death rate (especially child death). The secret of our current success rest on the shoulder of modern science. It's vaccine, antibiotics, germs theory, cell theory and genetics that allowed human to become taller, stronger, faster and healthier than ever before.
I am unsure about the argument with the DA. I don't think recruitment is stupid. It is the will to thrive, more than just live that makes it so appealing to abide by this process. Often times shortcuts seriously feth up Marines overal rendering them useless or too heavily mutated. Actually afaik, tampering with Astartes programs useless feths all, from founding programs (see cursed founding,) to recruitment programs. Also, feral worlds, hive worlds, death worlds, even pleasure worlds though risky.
Honestly to a mere man or woman Astartes can be ( and arguably are,) considered god like and a living connection to the big E, (by guardsman for instance,) and referred to by the title Lord. (Unsure about this last bit, though as I think this happens mostly in the game Space Marine and some BL books. So don't take this point seriously until I can cite refrence.)
This makes it easy to recruit from any world. Look at fleet chapters, they don't give a single feth where they get their due, unless another chapter already controls that area in the long term. Actually, it could be argued almost nothing is off limits to recruit from within reason.
The Fists and BT come to mind for fleet shenanigans, along with Sallies for villages. Look at the Iron Snakes as well for culture/fluff reasons. I know they have light mention of recruitment and neophyte trials. You may think recruitment is stupid but, this is one of the SM's greatest strengths, both in usage in the Imperium and from a reader/fan POV. Wi5hiut this 3ssential process Marines wouldn't be what they are. They would still be Marines but, more prone to genetic defect, character flaws and overall the entire culture damaged.
Look at the novel Sons of Dorn. Perfectly executed IMO and though dated it is a good read. Read that and then tell us if you think this is still stupid. I doubt you will, your posts are rather negative concerning Marines and 40k. Regardless, if you do and still disagree, refer to the original legions who bashed through most of the issues causes by current process.
And to reply to Asherian Command, I was too young to remember that time but, I have made it a habit to inject the old school into new school. I have delved into many white dwarfs and deep into sketchy PDF websites to bring RT and 2nd back to life.
Those were the days. My first models were 2nd edition Marines and some RTHQ's in 4th-5th edition off ebay. Got demolished by Orks. Those were the days indeed, though for some reason RT holds a huge part of my heart as far as the hobby goes now.
I must admit your point 3 is very compeling and I haven't thought about it. Managing Feral and other low tech worlds has its advantages. It's cheap and easy, locals are very loyal and they may even actively try to provied you with good recruits without any other incentives. Just for that, I would say you are right on the recruitment of Space Marine. It's not as dumb as I thought. I was wrong
In all fairness thought, I must mention the following point for educationnal purpose ( I am an history teacher I do that a lot, sorry.).
Nomadic hunter-gatherer have terrible life conditions. They suffer systematically from malnutrition at one point or another. Their diet can be good during summer and automn in certain area, but in winter or ecologicaly poor environment, it's terrible. Hygene condition in nomadic camps are a bit better than the worst hamlet of the pre-industrial era or squalors of modern city but not by much. You still defacate in a hole not so far from your tent and you sleep on the floor where all kinds of parasites and scavangers will happily visit you during your sleep (beds were invented to solve that major health problem). You also find yourself, more often than not, sleeping all bunched up together with your tribesmate for protection and sometime warmth. Rain, storms, cold or hot weather can be deadly and bring disease. Without artificial irrigation, even short drought can force you to starve. You can't make much reserves when there is plenty of everything so when you get unlucky, you suffer a lot more. Nomads never were very numerous because of their incredible death rate (especially child death). The secret of our current success rest on the shoulder of modern science. It's vaccine, antibiotics, germs theory, cell theory and genetics that allowed human to become taller, stronger, faster and healthier than ever before.
While its true that their health wouldn't be perfect, it would have been better than anyone living in a simple agrarian or feudal society.
Remember that, while you are defecating close to camp, camp is always moving. Malnutrition is a problem, but the lifestyle does weed out the weak. I recently read a fascinating article on bones, how our hunter-gatherer ancestors had far stronger skeletons because they were constantly stressing them. Later farmers had less dense bone matter, they were also shorter due to having less protein in their diet.
Ultimately, the benefits outweigh the downsides when deciding what type of world to recruit from.
There is another reason as well. Astartes recruiting worlds do not pay the tithe. You don't want to lose out on a revenue stream from an advanced world when you could get just as good recruits from a world that would otherwise provide nothing or require substantial investment to make productive.
Most of Space Marine recruitment makes sense in 40K. It's over the top, insane, but has a tiny kernel of truth, and there's a certain logic to it.
Personally, I think the stupidest marine recruitment belongs to the Mortifactors. Cannibals, the health problems associated with that are off the wall, and untreatable. There is stupid recruitment.
1000 lives to one Space Marines. And that's rough estimate. Of course that's flawed. I seriously hope Robute Guilliman's viewpoint of the situation was not how Empy saw the whole thing. It just a suggestion. But comeon, 1000 human lives to pay for one Space Marine in an ideal universe? That doesn't sound ideal to me.
Beaviz81 wrote: 1000 lives to one Space Marines. And that's rough estimate. Of course that's flawed. I seriously hope Robute Guilliman's viewpoint of the situation was not how Empy saw the whole thing. It just a suggestion. But comeon, 1000 human lives to pay for one Space Marine in an ideal universe? That doesn't sound ideal to me.
The impirium does not care, human life is worth less than a lasgun.
That marine is a elite warrior capable of serving for hundreds of years, suvivimg damage few other beings can and capable of suvivimg in almost any environment.
Beaviz81 wrote: 1000 lives to one Space Marines. And that's rough estimate. Of course that's flawed. I seriously hope Robute Guilliman's viewpoint of the situation was not how Empy saw the whole thing. It just a suggestion. But comeon, 1000 human lives to pay for one Space Marine in an ideal universe? That doesn't sound ideal to me.
Source?
Also, as it has been previously stated, feral worlds would produce stronger (mentally and spritually) recruits for the Space Marines. It also seems like the Space Marines from Feral Worlds would be far better at combating monstrous creatures. And, hunter-gatherers would not be the only cultures/tribes/peoples found on Feral Worlds. You would still have the small, minimal-tech (fire and wheel) agrarian cultures. There would still be the people like the Romans, who dominate the tribes around them and live off of conquest. There would still be the tribes like the Vikings (Fenris), like Native Americans (who were usually quite healthy and strong warriors), like the Kingdom of England (doesn't make it a feudal world if there are only a few feudalisms amongst hundreds of other cultures), etc. etc. Feral Worlds aren't just African Tribes running around cutting people's heads off, they're just insanely low-tech, and thus don't have the same benefits as, say, a Hive World.
As far as Baal goes, the Tribes of the Blood actually aren't starving, malnourished savages running around trying to join the Bangels. They have a fair amount of high-tech equipment, sufficient food to feed their families, and generally lead okay lives in comparison to most Hive dwellers. They're basically techno-barbarians.
Beaviz81 wrote: 1000 lives to one Space Marines. And that's rough estimate. Of course that's flawed. I seriously hope Robute Guilliman's viewpoint of the situation was not how Empy saw the whole thing. It just a suggestion. But comeon, 1000 human lives to pay for one Space Marine in an ideal universe? That doesn't sound ideal to me.
The impirium does not care, human life is worth less than a lasgun.
That marine is a elite warrior capable of serving for hundreds of years, suvivimg damage few other beings can and capable of suvivimg in almost any environment.
1000 is a good trade by there odds.
I'm not asking you to validate it by any point. The base number sucks and worse it's how many intakes it takes to get a Space Marine. I hope seriously Empy weren't pleased with that number of rejections.
Beaviz81 wrote: 1000 lives to one Space Marines. And that's rough estimate. Of course that's flawed. I seriously hope Robute Guilliman's viewpoint of the situation was not how Empy saw the whole thing. It just a suggestion. But comeon, 1000 human lives to pay for one Space Marine in an ideal universe? That doesn't sound ideal to me.
The impirium does not care, human life is worth less than a lasgun.
That marine is a elite warrior capable of serving for hundreds of years, suvivimg damage few other beings can and capable of suvivimg in almost any environment.
1000 is a good trade by there odds.
I'm not asking you to validate it by any point. The base number sucks and worse it's how many intakes it takes to get a Space Marine. I hope seriously Empy weren't pleased with that number of rejections.
Pre-Heresy, the Dark Angels had more than a 90% success rate with their Astartes. It's in Fallen Angels, when Zahariel is making a report to Lion el'Jonson.
Beaviz81 wrote: 1000 lives to one Space Marines. And that's rough estimate. Of course that's flawed. I seriously hope Robute Guilliman's viewpoint of the situation was not how Empy saw the whole thing. It just a suggestion. But comeon, 1000 human lives to pay for one Space Marine in an ideal universe? That doesn't sound ideal to me.
The impirium does not care, human life is worth less than a lasgun.
That marine is a elite warrior capable of serving for hundreds of years, suvivimg damage few other beings can and capable of suvivimg in almost any environment.
1000 is a good trade by there odds.
I'm not asking you to validate it by any point. The base number sucks and worse it's how many intakes it takes to get a Space Marine. I hope seriously Empy weren't pleased with that number of rejections.
Life is cheap, it was cheap in the 31st millennium. Its even cheaper in 41st millennium.
The Imperium has, almost, literally infinite manpower. A million worlds, countless trillions of people constantly giving birth. They could recruit and lose billions and billions of soldiers a year and not be even close to running out of people.
Really, 1000 people to make a Space Marine is trivial.
Depends how many recruits you need, 10,000 recruits, you need 10 graduates to become marines, part of that number may reflect that depending on population that some take a lot better to geneseed, different geneseeds may have deffrent rejection rates and not everyone even chosen becomes a marine. Some don,t work out and end up dead, broken or half augmented.
Also how pure is it, early generation is going to be pure as can get. Later may less and more prone to loss,s.
Beaviz81 wrote: 1000 lives to one Space Marines. And that's rough estimate. Of course that's flawed. I seriously hope Robute Guilliman's viewpoint of the situation was not how Empy saw the whole thing. It just a suggestion. But comeon, 1000 human lives to pay for one Space Marine in an ideal universe? That doesn't sound ideal to me.
There are quadrillions of humans in the Imperium. Their lives are worth less then the dirt they're standing on. The Imperium could lose ten billion people in a single second and they wouldn't even notice. It wouldn't even be on the level of a speedbump. Trading a thousand people for one space marine is practically free for the Imperium, because the human population is so large it bounces back instantly.
Beaviz81 wrote: 1000 lives to one Space Marines. And that's rough estimate. Of course that's flawed. I seriously hope Robute Guilliman's viewpoint of the situation was not how Empy saw the whole thing. It just a suggestion. But comeon, 1000 human lives to pay for one Space Marine in an ideal universe? That doesn't sound ideal to me.
There are quadrillions of humans in the Imperium. Their lives are worth less then the dirt they're standing on. The Imperium could lose ten billion people in a single second and they wouldn't even notice. It wouldn't even be on the level of a speedbump. Trading a thousand people for one space marine is practically free for the Imperium, because the human population is so large it bounces back instantly.
This basically is it. Before, the Gene-seed was pure, and thus had less rejections. Now, the Gene-seed is impure = more rejections. The only Chapter I can think of that would actually care about rejection levels that high are the Space Wolves (who only have something like 300k people on their entire planet)
Grey Templar wrote: 300,000 would be pretty low, even for a death world like Fenris.
There are probably a couple million people living there. They're spread out across its surface so there is still plenty of space for a few million.
It says somewhere in the Space Wolves Codex that they have something like 325k people on it. Too tired right now to go combing through it to find the exact quote.
Grey Templar wrote: 300,000 would be pretty low, even for a death world like Fenris.
There are probably a couple million people living there. They're spread out across its surface so there is still plenty of space for a few million.
It says somewhere in the Space Wolves Codex that they have something like 325k people on it. Too tired right now to go combing through it to find the exact quote.
Well that would certainly explain the low IQ of some Space Wolves. Inbreeding. Inbreeding galore!
Grey Templar wrote: 300,000 would be pretty low, even for a death world like Fenris.
There are probably a couple million people living there. They're spread out across its surface so there is still plenty of space for a few million.
It says somewhere in the Space Wolves Codex that they have something like 325k people on it. Too tired right now to go combing through it to find the exact quote.
Interesting, for I cannot find the number referenced anywhere; please do get well soon, I can use the info
Beaviz81 wrote: 1000 lives to one Space Marines. And that's rough estimate. Of course that's flawed. I seriously hope Robute Guilliman's viewpoint of the situation was not how Empy saw the whole thing. It just a suggestion. But comeon, 1000 human lives to pay for one Space Marine in an ideal universe? That doesn't sound ideal to me.
There are quadrillions of humans in the Imperium. Their lives are worth less then the dirt they're standing on. The Imperium could lose ten billion people in a single second and they wouldn't even notice. It wouldn't even be on the level of a speedbump. Trading a thousand people for one space marine is practically free for the Imperium, because the human population is so large it bounces back instantly.
And because there are many people then we are supposed to be happy about the rate of success. The 90% success-rate on the other hand is a more valid point on the other hand, but I would still want the raw numbers as I wonder if that is past the Neophyte-stage.
Beaviz81 wrote: 1000 lives to one Space Marines. And that's rough estimate. Of course that's flawed. I seriously hope Robute Guilliman's viewpoint of the situation was not how Empy saw the whole thing. It just a suggestion. But comeon, 1000 human lives to pay for one Space Marine in an ideal universe? That doesn't sound ideal to me.
There are quadrillions of humans in the Imperium. Their lives are worth less then the dirt they're standing on. The Imperium could lose ten billion people in a single second and they wouldn't even notice. It wouldn't even be on the level of a speedbump. Trading a thousand people for one space marine is practically free for the Imperium, because the human population is so large it bounces back instantly.
This basically is it. Before, the Gene-seed was pure, and thus had less rejections. Now, the Gene-seed is impure = more rejections. The only Chapter I can think of that would actually care about rejection levels that high are the Space Wolves (who only have something like 300k people on their entire planet)
That is damn callous, but I can see it happening even with the Space Wolves. They have the whole population of a planet to feast on and takes dying warriors to feast with them in their Valhalla. And I can see a case for the more impure geneseed, but still it was like this always, and think of the Custodians. There it likely is even more rejections.
keep in mind also, failure is not always lethal, chapter serfs come from somewhere. my bet'd be MOST people get weeded out in non-lethal trials, just we need not to hear about that as it's not very exciting to read "Bob the space Marine aspirant was sweating, he was about to take a verbal math test, he;d be asked the questions to some very simple math questions to see how fast he could respond to test his thinking speed! if he didn't answer fast eneugh he'd be deemed unfit to be an astartes!"
legit test, wouldn't suprise me if it existed, as you wanna test how fast your guys can think, but it's pretty dull stuff
Indeed. Well my take is still that nine out ten die on the operating-table, but that number can be lower as you told me about Bob the space marine-aspirant.
The Red Scorpions Chapter selects new Marines from birth, or from when they are babies. The primitives on the planet they have put babies into temples overnight on the full moon as a test, they believe the gods watch them from the moon. The Red Scorpions Apothacaries examine them during this time for genetic purity. The Red Scorpions have loads of Apothacaries and are fanatics about pure gene seed and purity in general. Those babies that pass are taken and raised as Marines. The parents think the gods took them and believe it's a great honour for their baby to live with the gods. Because they are taken as babies the Marines have no cultural baggage and the only life they know is the Chapter. It's never gone into detail how the kids are raised however, who teaches them to talk, read and write etc.
Details about the Red Scorpions in the link below.
Beaviz81 wrote: Except it is to the God-Emperor. They must actually be one of few chapters that believe Empy is a God.
not nesscarily. just because they employ a temple to the god emperor doesn't mean they nesscarily share it's belives. it's more likely they've carefully tweeked the local religon instead to service their NEEDS. such as they might have the local variation of the religon teach "spinnich is a holy vegetable and should be eaten at all meals" not cause they like it but cause they find it leads to healthy pure genes, just for example
Beaviz81 wrote: Except it is to the God-Emperor. They must actually be one of few chapters that believe Empy is a God.
not nesscarily. just because they employ a temple to the god emperor doesn't mean they nesscarily share it's belives. it's more likely they've carefully tweeked the local religon instead to service their NEEDS. such as they might have the local variation of the religon teach "spinnich is a holy vegetable and should be eaten at all meals" not cause they like it but cause they find it leads to healthy pure genes, just for example
Lol, I prefer "bacon is a holy meat and shod be eaten at all meals.
