The Undivided Daemon restriction doesn't apply to the CSM side at least so you can make them all one God and go get the appropriate support piece from the Daemon side.
Troops: 10 bloodletters (banner of blood), 2 squads of nurglings.
(This will cover all 4 types of daemons, plus allows us to take a second squad of nurglings).
Elites: 3 x volkite contemptors.
Heavy: 1 max squad of obliterators (Slanaash) and 2 Vindicators with combi melta, havoc launchers and demolisher cannons (which are now d6 shots blast).
Fast attacks: 2x raptors squads.
So, Belakor is to stay behind obscuring and mainly use his new Noctic psychic spells. He will serve mainly as a counter charge unit only if your shooty stuff is being threatened by melee stuff. He will give the full rerolls to the obliterators as priority with his command warlord trait Shadow Lord. He will give rerolls to 1 for the other shooty stuff too. But if need be, he can fly out at turn 2 or 3 and cause a big distraction. Maybe by then, enough of the anti belakor shooting can be taken out so that he has a decent chance of surviving. I didn't mention any artifacts because honestly, I don't know if there is any of note which will be crucial from either the old CSM or daemon codex. I guess the endless grimoire is the best, to give the changecastor an additional tzeenth psychic, so it can take gaze of fate for the additional reroll.
The obliterators can be teleported to the best spot by the noctic psychic (Wreathed in shadows) so that they can use their double shoot and wreck havoc, plus they have full rerolls.
After that, sacrificial units like the bloodletters, or cultists, or whatever can be flung forward by the same spell (Wreathed in shadows) to achieve objectives.
The army just wants to use its shooting to clear out as much as the main threats as it can while its cheap troops as stuff sacrifice themselves to achieve objectives.
I put in the Nortilith crown because quite a lot hinges on getting that warp 7 psychic off and the crown gives psykers within range rerolls on their psychic. Plus with the amount of armor I put in the list, the Crown is yet one more T8 vehicle that adds to the amount of armor the opponent has to kill. The army doesn't start with a lot of cp because of the 3 volkite Contemptors, but its likely mostly only using strategems like Cacophony, Vets and a clutch Blessing of Belakor.
I am kinda iffy about the Vindicators with demolisher cannons though, but they were cheap and at T8, hard to kill and add to the armor satuation. They will move foward aggressively, and help to screen the obliterators who can then get that other noctic psychic (Shrouded Step) cast on it so that it cannot be targeted unless its the closest unit. Maybe I can take 1 Vindicator tank out and get more cultist units, and/or one more bloodletter squad, just for the additional obsec units for doing objectives.
Also, because of the ability to use wreathed in shadows, and because Obliterators can actually fight and tank decently. Its possible to have spot a weaker flank/objective and wreath the obliterators onto that point, plus have Belakor fly there and charge something. Then suddenly, on that turn. The obliterators will shoot down two units, charge a third, and so will Belakor and they will likely be suddenly standing on a midboard objective at the end of that turn on a flank which is cleared of most threats. Just don't do this on a center midboard objective. Oblits and Belakor are not quite that tanky.
So, what do you think? Would this work? From what I understand, the whole army will get that -1 to hit at over 12 inches and more importantly, all the shooty stuff is CSM, which means shooting at them cannot be rerolled as well. let me know if I did this wrong. lol
Just to add on.. But Kill Shot is still a thing in the CSM codex. And you can put 3 predators into a DOB army. In fact, you can even put 6 predators (cos two types). And all the predators get that -1 to hit. I don't know if it makes them interesting enough, but it is something to think about. 6 Predators is quite a lot of shooting if all of them have havoc launchers and combi bolters. And with -1 to hit, its unlikely you can kill 4 predators in one turn, so kill shot is almost assured of going off.
Strange, I only see 1 data sheet for the chaos predator in my Codex. Assuming you're playing with the rule of 3 then you are limited to 3 of the same data sheet in your army. If you're not playing with the rule of 3 then why limit yourself to just 6 predators (other than the fact that they aren't very good units)?
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Strange, I only see 1 data sheet for the chaos predator in my Codex. Assuming you're playing with the rule of 3 then you are limited to 3 of the same data sheet in your army. If you're not playing with the rule of 3 then why limit yourself to just 6 predators (other than the fact that they aren't very good units)?
Ah sorry, I kept on reading about how the Predator has two datasheets now, one for the destructor and one for the annihilator. But apparently that was just for the newer codex like the death guard or space marine codex. So, CSM codex hasn't gotten this treatment yet. Ah well, 3 predators can still do kill shot. And they are still affected by the -1 to hit. So, alist with 3 Volkite contemptors and 3 predators tanks? Could be a thing. I don;t know if kill shot and -1 to hit makes predator tanks fieldable. But its worth discussing and thinking about.
Do they see any use these days? What weapon should it have?
To be determined. Right now the heldrake is pretty much the platonic ideal of a distraction carnifex, being big and fast and annoying but hitting like a wet noodle. You wanna use the baleflamer because BS4 sucks.
Of course, it seems the daemon engine profiles are changing so the autocannon might be more appealing in the future. We'll know for sure when the Thousand Sons codex launches since it'll be in that book (though that won't update the CSM version ofc).
Do they see any use these days? What weapon should it have?
Grats!!! They are meant to tie up shooty troops on turn 1 with a turn 1 charge. Given their super long move, its definitely possible. It all depends on how what kind of list your opponent runs, and how good a player he is. Newbies will probably let your Heldrake do its thing. Veteran players will know how to screen their best shooters so that your Heldrake don't get to land anywhere near charge range, and at least they will definitely try and shoot it out if they can't do that. In any case, it shouldn't expect to survive past turn 1. If it gets to draw fire and tied up a shooty unit on turn 1, that's its job accomplished. People usually run flamers because given the long move it has, it should be able to flame whoever it wants.
p5freak wrote: In addition what the others said heldrakes can be used for secondaries like engage on all fronts or behind enemy lines on T1.
Using a noctilith crown is a bad idea, because it cant be placed within 3" of any other terrain piece, and if it cant be placed, its destroyed.
Side point, if you attempt to get juicy 5++ then you can just use the cheaper and more usefull Apostle aswell...
Ironically on the Helldrake, i am unsure, the hades AC i use makes it quite a funny little thing and shooting into a melee is a thing. Flamer overall still the better deal. I'd say its a bit like a flying Venomcrawler, insofar that it wants to get stuck in and bully things whilest still being pretty durable when within MoP/ Sorcerer range.
Do they see any use these days? What weapon should it have?
So I talked about possible changes coming for heldrakes a few pages back by looking at the new points costs in the thousand sons codex. It's points are going up from 150 to 165pts but the Hades autocannon no longer costs extra.
It appears to be a trend that Daemon Engines are going to WS/BS 3+ but the Heldrake is already WS3+. If the accuracy boost is the only rule change its recieving then you would think that would increase the value in the Hades option.
I'm hoping that points to a boost in its melee profile as it desperately needs it. My hope is a bunch more attacks at least
p5freak wrote: In addition what the others said heldrakes can be used for secondaries like engage on all fronts or behind enemy lines on T1.
Using a noctilith crown is a bad idea, because it cant be placed within 3" of any other terrain piece, and if it cant be placed, its destroyed.
.
Well, I think Nortilith crown is something you can discuss with your opponent and it shouldn't be hard for the two of you to come to an agreement on where to place it. You aren't going to place that crown anywhere near his deployment zone. But yeah, its not something absolutely essential. I just happen to have it and I am always looking for ways to make it work.
I haven't been playing CSM for a while so apologies if I've missed something. I'm playing a more fun game this week and said I might take my lord of skulls out for a spin.
How does 'Titanic Daemon Engine' interact with 'Big Guns Never Tire'?
If it's engaged by infantry, can it use it's own rule to shoot with no -1 penalty for shooting heavy weapons and choose to shoot another unit that it isn't in combat with? none of it's weapons are blast from what i can tell so i think that said of things is moot.
Also, with the change to the core rules for titanic, can it still fall back and shoot? That was something that, unlike knights, it couldn't do before?
That all feels like quite big buffs to it's utility unless i have missed something in the FAQs?
A vehicle can fire weapons at things it is not engaged with, but you have to kill everything you're engaged with first. So if you have 3 guns and want to fire the biggest one at something else, better hope your other two guns kill everything near you, otherwise it's a wasted shot.
The Titanic Daemon Engine adds an extra layer to that, as it's a specific Codex rule over a general rulebook rule. So it can fire everything at engaged Infantry units, and any enemy that is more than 1" away from it.
Hello. I'm planning to buy, build, paint a unit of 10 Chaos cultists out of resin parts, in order to offer them to my brother, as a birthday gift. He has a small alpha legion army, currently a side project that does not grow fast unfortunately. What is the best equipment loadout to choose for this unit ? Autoguns, or autopistols and mêlée weapons ? What about the sergeant and optional special weapon dude ?
Ravajaxe wrote: Hello. I'm planning to buy, build, paint a unit of 10 Chaos cultists out of resin parts, in order to offer them to my brother, as a birthday gift. He has a small alpha legion army, currently a side project that does not grow fast unfortunately. What is the best equipment loadout to choose for this unit ? Autoguns, or autopistols and mêlée weapons ? What about the sergeant and optional special weapon dude ?
I normally use autorifle cultists with no special or champion weapon upgrades unless I have spare points at the "end" of list building, where I'll add a heavy stubber with spare points I can't fill anywhere else.
I am kinda nervous about the upcoming Tsons codex, Tsons share so many common units with CSM it will be a huge indicator on the CSM codex.
If the Tsons codex suck, only the units obliterators, havocs, lord discordant, lord of skulls, berserkers and noise marines are left to make the CSM good.
Lets be real, CSM terminators stats wise and rules will always be inferior to cult terminators. The only thing they have going for them is their cost.
We could have good strategems of course, but that is very hit and miss. And as we have seen in 9th ed codex releases, its more the stats boost and unit rules of the 9th ed units that contribute to the power of a 9th ed codex rather than one or two OP strategems. (If they are that OP. they will get nerfed anyway.)
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am kinda nervous about the upcoming Tsons codex, Tsons share so many common units with CSM it will be a huge indicator on the CSM codex.
If the Tsons codex suck, only the units obliterators, havocs, lord discordant, lord of skulls, berserkers and noise marines are left to make the CSM good.
Lets be real, CSM terminators stats wise and rules will always be inferior to cult terminators. The only thing they have going for them is their cost.
We could have good strategems of course, but that is very hit and miss. And as we have seen in 9th ed codex releases, its more the stats boost and unit rules of the 9th ed units that contribute to the power of a 9th ed codex rather than one or two OP strategems. (If they are that OP. they will get nerfed anyway.)
Eh. CSM don't have to have the best Terminators, I don't think there was ever a time when we did. They need to be useful, not outstanding.
3W Terminators are good at objective holding and drawing fire. Thinking a squad of 5 taking the place of a vehicle to deny secondaries to an opponent may justify their appearance in a list.
More concerned about Daemon Engines. Not having the Core keyword could really set them back. When I did use them in 8th, really needed the benefit of reroll auras to do much on the table.
Well, the Defiler was already featured in DG codex. Don't think the TS version or the CSM version will be any different. But we will be seeing the Maulerfiend and Forgefiend in the Tsons codex. And the Helldrake too. That's a pretty big portion of the daemon engines available to us. Beyond these daemon engines, there is basically only the Venom Crawler and Lord of Discordant left which is distinct to the CSM codex. (And Lord of Skulls).
If Daemon Enginess theme is to be a decent list, these three daemon engines can't be too terrible. Else it would be really hard to make any CSM daemon engine themed list work.
The Venomcrawler and Master of Possessions could both realistically fit in the Thousand Sons codex, yes. It was already kind of weird that Thousand Sons didn't get the Venomcrawler, it fits just as well as the other daemon engines. They may be barred due to some weird "this is a Heretic Astartes release" logic since they came out with the Oblits and other models that KSons shouldn't get.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Is there any reason why they couldn't add the Venom Crawler to the 1KSons book?
We already saw the points for TS in the Munitorum Field Manual, so we know it's not there.
As for why the TS would forgo this and other Daemon Engine options, maybe arrogance? Sorcerers have their thralls, Daemon Engines can't be controlled the same way. Occasionally including a Defiler is enough for them.
What do we think of the changes to Daemon engines in the TS codex?
Wish I knew where the magma cutters are for my maulerfiend as I magnetised the lasher tendrils for easier transport but never fittedr the cutters. Also the goonhammer review says they are now assault 2. I presume that both cutters are lumped into one profile and it's not getting 4 shots at D6+2 damage?
Bit disappointed by the heldrake changes. I like it's unique position of being able to take objectives, score engage etc. Maybe it's improved damage output will be enough to keep it interesting.
Big question is whether the disco lord continues to grant +1 to hit when everything gets BS/WS3+
For those who have not seen the Daemon Engine changes:
Spoiler:
Goonhammer wrote:Forgefiends and Maulerfiends Alright children, sit up and take notes because what we’re getting here is basically going to be how the datasheets shake out for these two units in the future. Both Forgefiends and Maulerfiends got significant boosts in the new book, and it’s worth taking a good look at both because I think they’re both playable as hell now.
Forgefiends get a huge boost from jumping up to BS and WS 3+, though both degrade now along with their movement (attacks do not). That’s interesting because now that Forgefiends can shoot autocannons in melee and are S7 and 5A base, the prospect of getting them in combat with their standard jaws isn’t nearly as troubling. That said, their guns are also significantly improved now – Ectoplasma Cannons are 36” and flat 3 damage (Blast), while Heavy hades autocannons are 48” and AP-2 now, making both significantly better for dealing with heavy targets at a long distance.
Maulerfiends benefit even more from the improved statlines – they’re now S7 and 6A base, and now only their movement, WS, and BS degrade, with the latter two starting at 3+ so you won’t even feel the drop until you get down to 3 wounds remaining. Magma Cutters are now Assault 2 and do D6+2 damage, making them significantly better options, particularly since Lasher Tendrils have dropped to 1 damage (though being S7 does mean you’re more likely to get wounds). If you’re wondering why you would still take them, the answer is because you might not need Magma Cutters as Maulerfiend Fists are now D3+3 damage. Oh and the cherry on top of all of this? The new Siege Crawler ability, which allows the Maulerfiend to ignore all modifiers to its charge rolls. So roll right over that difficult terrain at your leisure.
Heldrakes Y’all. I am already assembling my next Thousand Sons Heldrake. This thing absolutely slaps. While we’re (sadly) back to the Heldrake being an AIRCRAFT instead of a big skimmer, it gains Hard to Hit while it’s in jet mode and 20-60” movement along with Supersonic and Airborne Predator, which prevents it from charging any non-AIRCRAFT units. Want the old Heldrake back? Then in your Command phase it can switch to Hover Jet mode, and its movement drops to 20” and it loses all three of those abilities, letting it attack ground targets. Either way, its Hunter in the Skies rule gives it +1 to hit any target that can FLY.
On the whole, these changes are slightly negative – the Heldrake can’t hold objectives any more, and you have to plan a bit more to use it, and it’s slightly slower, but it’s harder to hit and potentially faster when it wants to be. But the kicker is that its stats and offensive power are much better. In addition to having WS/BS 3+ to start like other vehicles and 5A base now (these do not degrade, by the way), every one of its weapons have improved. The Baleflamer is now Assault 2D3. The Hades Autocannon is AP-2. And the Heldrake Claws do a flat 2 damage, which jumps up to 4 against enemy AIRCRAFT, making the Heldrake an absolute monster for fighting enemy planes out of the sky. Sure, this won’t happen often, but it’s going to be hilarious when it does and even without it, he’s pretty good at fighting ground targets and jump units.
There’s one other thing worth mentioning here and that’s the Vector Strike Stratagem, another thing we’ll likely see again in the future Codex: CSM. For 1 CP Vector Strike can be used in the Movement phase after a Heldrake moves to pick an enemy unit it moved over that isn’t a character with 9 or fewer wounds and roll a D6; on a 2+ they take D3 mortal wounds… unless they can FLY, in which case they take 3 instead. Add this to the Warpflame Gargoyles Stratagem to do mortal wounds to enemy units within Engagement range and you’ve got yourself an incredibly nasty flyer that can also toss out more mortal wounds and pick off key targets. The Heldrake wins my award for “most improved unit” in the book.
I'm super-happy about the Forgefiend.
I've got a pair of them, one triple Ecto, one double Hades and an Ecto. The increased range is a massive boost, and Daemon Engines are finally better shots/fighters than Guardsmen, something I've always hated since GW put them at 4+. More strength/attacks on the Mauler is a nice touch as well, and it no longer degrades. Yay!
Yeh range increases are nice, the 24" on the ecto used to make you feel vulnerable to getting caught in melee so you then wanted the jaws which reduced it's shooting output. Triple ecto at 36" seems nice, blast means your really don't want it getting tagged tho.
Double Hades really chews through marines now and 48" means you can probably clear a rear objective quite easily over a couple of turns
Thinking a bit more on this new information I'm really not sure why goonhammer are so stoked on the heldrake changes.
It goes from 150 to 165pts for both weapon options. I'm not really sure what it brings to the table, you're very rarely gonna be up against other aircraft, if you want to attack ground targets you're reduced to 20" move so first turn tags of opponents big guns is basically off which was really it's main appeal.
They've rounded off the damage output but not increased it in any way (2D3 flamer, 2D claws. It's less swingy but still pretty pillowfisted).
You can't get engage or claim objectives with it so it's list a lot of utility. So it's basically an aircraft that can also give up the bulk of its aircraft perks to do a little light melee. At 165pts you compare it to something like a storm talon/hawk and it seems pretty mediocre.
As far as the other DEs go, maulerfiend stays at 140pts but now pays 10pts extra for the lasher tendrils so he's looking better overall, the tendrils have been pretty neutered and the cutters are a little awkward to get use of. At 140pts it's pretty comparable to other options like a contemptor with a chainfist but the contemptor probably has more utility due to the better gun options and core. You're not paying out a CP tho.
With the Forgefiend Triple plasma goes from 145 to 155pts while the Hades version goes from 135pts to 160pts, 175pts if you want the extra plasma head.
I think both the forgefiend options look okay at the price but probably not gonna break into competitive, especially if disco lord loses his +1 to hit buff.
Abaddon303 wrote: Thinking a bit more on this new information I'm really not sure why goonhammer are so stoked on the heldrake changes.
It goes from 150 to 165pts for both weapon options. I'm not really sure what it brings to the table, you're very rarely gonna be up against other aircraft, if you want to attack ground targets you're reduced to 20" move so first turn tags of opponents big guns is basically off which was really it's main appeal.
They've rounded off the damage output but not increased it in any way (2D3 flamer, 2D claws. It's less swingy but still pretty pillowfisted).
You can't get engage or claim objectives with it so it's list a lot of utility. So it's basically an aircraft that can also give up the bulk of its aircraft perks to do a little light melee. At 165pts you compare it to something like a storm talon/hawk and it seems pretty mediocre.
Agreed.
The Heldrake is now a Helbrute with Fly and less shooting. Hard to see it tying up units first turn or doing much beyond harassing light infantry.
Maulerfiends being able to ignore charge modifiers is a big deal tho. Arguably, this will do some of what Heldrakes used to do.
It's not even so good against planes that it's worth taking. It's only -1AP so probably only gonna get 1 or 2 wounds through at 4D each. Probably better off hoping for the best firing a few lascannons at any planes you come up against
Good morning folks, I've been enjoying some in-person games of 9e recently with my World Eaters and was wondering if anyone had any advice when it comes to using Daemon Engines to supplement forces of Berserkers.
I've had various success using Blood Slaughterers and Defilers (with the scourge) but with how killy things are nowadays they don't seem to last more than a turn or two. Curious if anyone has any general or specific advice when using these models.
You could blow smoke on your defilers. Their WS is 4+ and gets worse if you advanced. Might as well forgo shooting and just blow smoke. If they are shooting at your defilers, I think its a good thing, because that means they aren't shooting at your Rhinos with berserkers. The Defiler is a great distraction unit.
Very true, I use the scourge and then select the cheapest stock range options, I usually don't advance them because the board is so small there's a good chance of me getting charged and degraded on the first turn if I'm going second.
Biggest problem I've had with the Defilers so far is terrain. Mecha-crabzilla is wide and has some large spiky bits so it gets caught on terrain quite often.
So, they have released the profiles and rules for the Mauler Fiend, forgefiend and Helldrake. So we can expect the same stats and rules for when the CSM codex comes out next year...
Not sure if I am super excited. Its definitely a buff, but is it enough? All the other vehicles like predators tanks, LR, and such had no change in the Tsons codex. Arguably, they are best now in a Tsons codex than anything else because Tsons gives them that 5++
Same for the hellbrutes. A Tsons Hellbrute is so much better than any other hellbrute because of the 5++. I doubt the CSM hellbrute will get that because 5++ is a Tsons thing.
I'd say yes. The boost to their stats, and the Forgefiend's weapons, are great. I can only imagine that the Venomcrawler will get (other than a much needed boost to WS/BS).
Played a game with my iron warriors the other night against necrons on very terrain heavy board. My army basically all Daemon engines and dreads with a sprinkling of oblits and termies. I did ok tbh but resilience wise CSM versus necrons is a terrible trade off, my terminators and leviathan unleashed everything into a warrior blob and then charged but they just reanimated almost the whole squad who then pulled out and let the whole army wipe my stuff out.
Overall I think we still have some play in dealing damage but just can't take a punch at all. Even with my toughest units on objectives they don't have a chance to hang on.
Thoughts on exalted champions buffing Daemon engines in combat? The issue they have is no jump pack but if you could get him in near a maulerfiend/disco lord I think he could be quite good the rolling all wounds.
Thinking of maybe running a berserker squad with my IW and having the exalted champion in with them as a punchy combat unit to cause serious damage up close.
That's a solid choice. I run World Eaters so Exalted Champions are a staple in my army. They're a good force multiplier especially with Berzerkers. I usually have mine riding on-top a rhino as it blitzes across the battlefield.
Thinking of starting night lords. What would be a fun and semi thematic summoning for an average game? I know summoning isnt the best but it feels like such a unique and awesome mechanic I should at least do it a few times.
The 3.5 CSM Codex let you include squads of Chaos Furies in your Night Lords armies. The Codex said that while Night Lords generally refuse to worship the Chaos Gods they do use Chaos as a tool. So the Codex said that Night Lords often go out and capture packs of Furies in the warp and then use them as needed.
I often ran a squad of 10 Furies in my 3.5 lists. They were a solid and fast light assault unit. I haven't used them since. Although in 8th and 9th sometimes I do set aside the points to summon a pack of Furies and then I forget to summon them.
Furies and Night Lords Raptors working in tandem on Xarius VII
As IW - Leviathan Dreadnought, Warpsmith, Sorcerer, and Discolord roving in a pack.
Delightful Agonies for 5+ FNP, Diabolic Strength for a little bit more melee bite (but I think you can go double gun with the Discolord doing the melee), keep yourself full up with stratagems/warpsmith.
I was thinking about beginning to build a EC army but when I asked at my FLGS I was told that the noise marine upgrade sprews sold by GW didn't fit on the current CSM kit.
I don't see how I could make my EC army without noise marines. Any advices ? For now I have the start collecting CSM box and a couple of Hellbrutes and rhinos from my TS army.
I was thinking about beginning to build a EC army but when I asked at my FLGS I was told that the noise marine upgrade sprews sold by GW didn't fit on the current CSM kit.
I don't see how I could make my EC army without noise marines. Any advices ? For now I have the start collecting CSM box and a couple of Hellbrutes and rhinos from my TS army.
The upgrade sprues do fit, according to this article from GW:
I would honestly just wait for the proper 9th edition codex to come out. GW said next year would be a big year for Chaos. It will probably come with release of new plastic kits. And usually those new models or unit types will likely define the 9th ed CSM armies. So its better to wait.
Maybe there will be a proper new noise marine plastic range. Or a new Berserker range. A new EC terminator model kit, or a new WE terminator model kit. And a new EC or WE daemon Engine kit. A new EC or WE character kit etc etc.
I mean yeah, anything could happen. Or, almost nothing could happen. We CSM players have been anticipating plastic cult marines and terminators for… I dunno, a decade.
ph34r wrote: I mean yeah, anything could happen. Or, almost nothing could happen. We CSM players have been anticipating plastic cult marines and terminators for… I dunno, a decade.
Not exactly. Technically, Tsons and DG are cult marines. Rubrics, plague marines, blight lords, death shroud, Occult terminators. These are all cult marines and cult terminators and they are all relatively new and awesome looking plastic models.
Ok yeah that is true, hmmm maybe I mean to say, for a while we had none of that. People thought we would get plastics of the cult marines and cult terminators. Instead we got thousand sons as a whole separate army, and then death guard as a whole separate army. If I had to bet, I would say that the day we get new plastic berserkers and khorne terminators is the day we get a daemon primarch angron model, and the day we get plastic noise marines and slaanesh terminators is the day we get a daemon primarch fulgrim. We thought we would get plastic cults in the CsM book, instead we have been getting full factions more slowly.
What surprised me is that they introduced DG and Tsons before WE as I believe WE would be the most popular cult marine faction amongst the four. Maybe they are building up to WE. So, saving the most popular for last.
ph34r wrote: If I had to bet, I would say that the day we get new plastic berserkers and khorne terminators is the day we get a daemon primarch angron model, and the day we get plastic noise marines and slaanesh terminators is the day we get a daemon primarch fulgrim.
So, this was just to throw this out here. Been playing Tsons since the codex dropped. Rubric marines are amazing. Obsec, immune to morale, 2W, durable, can be temporal surged. They are the perfect troop choice.
So, anyone considered souping in Tsons? Why bother playing with 1W marines when we have such good rubric marines we can soup in?
Pay 3 CP for a bat detachment. Fill it up with Ahriman and 6 rubric marine squads. Suddenly, all of our terrible troop option problems are solved.
We can take a patrol or vangaurd or outrider, and just take a cultist or even one single CSM troop. Key thing is that this allows us to take and play the still ok CSM stuff without feeling we are playing with our hands tied behind our backs.
Be it an outrider Nightlords detachment, or an Iron Warriors Detachment, or even a World Eaters Detachment.
Lord of skulls seems to be a very good unit to counter Drukhari, who struggle to kill something like the LOS with 28 wounds, T8 and who punches back really hard. We can take one LOS for just 1 CP because of the shared faction bonus.
Both recent CSM winning lists have run one single Lord of Skulls. Whether it goes solo or is part of a death ball with other Daemon Engines. It can definitely be a nasty surprise for some lists who are not prepared to deal with it. The Iron Warrior Deathball can support the LOS with a Lord Discordant and a master of possession, giving it a 2+ to hit, rerolls 1s to hit and wound, a 4++ and exploding 6s on hit. Can very nasty.
Or the LOS dies second turn because you didnt go first, and had no chance to activate that 4++ for him. Hiding that large models out of LOS is not possible.
p5freak wrote: Or the LOS dies second turn because you didnt go first, and had no chance to activate that 4++ for him. Hiding that large models out of LOS is not possible.
Well statistically, 6 raiders shooting at BS 3 at a LOS would have 4 hit. And then only 2 shots would wound because its against T8, and then the LOS gets to activate its 5++ or 4++ (depending on whether had time to get cursed earth up). So against the 4++, only one dark lance out of 6 shots from 6 raiders will get through. This is before the LOS gets to activate the strategem "Iron within iron without" for a 6+++ FNP. A LOS is not that easy to kill for a Drukhari list unless it goes full out Dark lance spam. Its a possible Drukhari list of course, but not exactly the usual meta list we are seeing these days for Drukhari.
p5freak wrote: Or the LOS dies second turn because you didnt go first, and had no chance to activate that 4++ for him. Hiding that large models out of LOS is not possible.
So how has knights been hiding here ever since 8e? How big LOC is compared to imperial knights?
p5freak wrote: Or the LOS dies second turn because you didnt go first, and had no chance to activate that 4++ for him. Hiding that large models out of LOS is not possible.
So how has knights been hiding here ever since 8e? How big LOC is compared to imperial knights?
I assume you mean LOS. A lord of skulls is about as big as an Imperial Knight. Both are super heavy units so can't really hide unless there is a really high obscuring terrain on the board.
This channel covered the Houston GT live for all 3 days. You get to see that GT winning black legion list in 4 of the games it covered. Very cool. Putting the LOS into strategic reserve is a valid tactic. Expensive in terms of CP, but worth it if you think opponent's shooting is so scary it can kill your LOS quickly.
A lot of his list is forgeworld stuff, but still, being able to win a GT with Abby and a Lord of skulls and playing black legion? The guy is a hero in my eyes. lol
I'm going to be building a Nurgle-themed Night Lords force and I was wondering if anyone else here has played Nurgle-marked Night Lords? My army will have Plague Marines, CSM and possibly Raptors. For HQ's, I'm thinking or taking a Chaos Lord with jump pack with the Unholy Fortitude WL trait and either the Fist of Decay or Stormbolt Plate relic, a Daemon Prince with the Talons of the Night Terror relic, a Sorcerer, and finally a Lord Discordant in a spearhead detachment with the Scourging Chains relic. Any possible advice for putting together and/or running this list?
ArcaneHorror wrote: I'm going to be building a Nurgle-themed Night Lords force and I was wondering if anyone else here has played Nurgle-marked Night Lords? My army will have Plague Marines, CSM and possibly Raptors. For HQ's, I'm thinking or taking a Chaos Lord with jump pack with the Unholy Fortitude WL trait and either the Fist of Decay or Stormbolt Plate relic, a Daemon Prince with the Talons of the Night Terror relic, a Sorcerer, and finally a Lord Discordant in a spearhead detachment with the Scourging Chains relic. Any possible advice for putting together and/or running this list?
So are you souping in death guard codex? Or are you actually using the 1W plague marines from the CSM codex?
ArcaneHorror wrote: I'm going to be building a Nurgle-themed Night Lords force and I was wondering if anyone else here has played Nurgle-marked Night Lords? My army will have Plague Marines, CSM and possibly Raptors. For HQ's, I'm thinking or taking a Chaos Lord with jump pack with the Unholy Fortitude WL trait and either the Fist of Decay or Stormbolt Plate relic, a Daemon Prince with the Talons of the Night Terror relic, a Sorcerer, and finally a Lord Discordant in a spearhead detachment with the Scourging Chains relic. Any possible advice for putting together and/or running this list?
So are you souping in death guard codex? Or are you actually using the 1W plague marines from the CSM codex?
The CSM Plague Marines, though I don't mind souping in DG (I'd prefer to keep it mono-NL). Rumor has it that the CSM 9th codex will be dropping in earl 2022, so I figure I don't have long to wait before everything is two wounds. Also, I just want to see what I can do by painting NL Plague Marines.
I think if you are relying on CSM codex's current infantry units. The 1W is tough to play around. You really have to accept that whatever you throw onto an objective, be it 1W raptors, or cultists or 1W plague marines, will get killed off in your opponen'ts round unless its hidden from his line of sight by some obscuring terrain.
World Eaters sort of get around this by trading units. Their units are so killy they usually reliably kill whatever they charge. So, they uses their units like missiles and trading pieces. Charge one in, kill off whats on the objective, then get shot off in your opponent, its ok, just charge in yet another unit on to the objective again, rinse and repeat.
The key difference is that WE units are more killer than nightlords because they get that +1 attack and they have more strats that support melee.
Nightlord strats seem like they would support terror and morale related play. Except its not reliable, and you will be unlikely to kill off a whole unit by morale. Unless your opponent rolls so badly, even if he fails morale, there is a high chance 1 or 2 models will not flee and remain. This makes it problematic for you because CSM plague marines are not obsec, and neither are raptors.
My advice would be to soup in DG so that you get to play with proper 2W plague marines which are obsec instead of 1W plague marines which are not. Then use your raptor units for doing objectives, disruption and stuff like that. So, Secondaries like Engage on all Fronts, Retrieve Octurus Data.
Don't over rely on your HQ to win the game. They won't no matter how much you kit them out. Because usually they can't play the mission, and no matter how you kit them, they are not going to Solo the opponent army for you. A lot of other codex has HQs which are just as good at fighting, if not better than our CSM codex. Or they can just outright shoot them off the board once the HQ's bodyguard units are shot off, which is actually quite easy to do for CSM because our units are generally so fragile. Like even if you fly in your DP with a unit of 5 Raptors, that;s just 5 wounds at 3++ of which he just needs to shoot off 3 and he can now target your DP.
Competitively, Contemptor Dreads and Decimators with soul burner petards are the way to go. Rely on these two types of vehicles. They are deadly enough such that they will draw enemy fire and they are usually sturdy enough to withstand at least some shooting.
The problem is that these are all forgeworld, so resin (not plastic), expensive and I don't know how easy it is for you to get forgeworld stuff in your area.
If you don't want to rely on forgeworld, then Venom crawlers are cheap 110 points only, and good to run with your Lord Discordant. You can only bring 3 though, and now your list looks more like a daemon engine list than a nightlord list. lol
Helldrakes are another consideration. They go well with nightlord theme. Flying nightmares of terror. Again though, helldrakes alone will not win you the game. They are a disruption unit, not a ball wrecker.
I think what a thematic night lords list will try to do, is to disrupt his opponents every round with stuff like daemon engines, helldrakes, the HQs, while your cheap stuff like cultists, troops, raptors go and do the mission (engage, ROD, etc).
The problem comes with primaries. For a Disruption strategy to be successful, you need to prevent your opponent from scoring primaries, or score a lot of that yourself. You can't expect to score a ton of VP on primaries because your units are too fragile. That means you have to prevent your opponent from scoring primaires. This means you either kill him off the point, or you kill his obsec and throw some of your own obsec on the point.
This means you need some stuff killy enough (in shooting or melee) to kill off his obsec, and you need some obsec of your own to throw on a point. You don't need as much obsec if your elites or fast attack are so killy they can wipe your opponent off the point, but I am not sure we have that. You would need to invest a lot in terms of ranged firepower, or really invest into melee. For a nightlords army whose forte isn't in either one.
Putting obsec troops in Rhinos is one way to do this. Rhinos will protect the troops. You can then move out an obsec troop 3+6 inches onto an objective and take it from your enemy. If you are disrupting enemy shooting with your daemon engines, HQs and helldrakes, he may not prioritise your Rhinos.
Played recently versus tau with my iron warriors and pulled out a crushing victory after turn 1 my havoc's somehow killed a riptide. I thought chaos were bad but wow...tau are abysmal.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Played recently versus tau with my iron warriors and pulled out a crushing victory after turn 1 my havoc's somehow killed a riptide. I thought chaos were bad but wow...tau are abysmal.
Maybe he was just an inexperienced player. Aren't Tau supposed to have all these shield drones protecting their important assets? If he set up his Riptide alone without any shield drones protecting it, then it deserved to die. lol
Then he didnt know how to play tau. When i play against our tau player i have no chance to kill his riptide. It has a 3++ inv, and shield drones around him.
What do ya'all think of the change GW made yesterday to Death to the False Emperor for our Chaos Marines? Now DttFE procs an extra hit for every 6 ya roll against any opponent, even other Chaos Marines.
To me it seems like a decent band-aid that will help tide my Chaos Marines over in casual games til we get a new codex. It's better than a kick in the head at any rate.
Tallarn Commander wrote: What do ya'all think of the change GW made yesterday to Death to the False Emperor for our Chaos Marines? Now DttFE procs an extra hit for every 6 ya roll against any opponent, even other Chaos Marines.
To me it seems like a decent band-aid that will help tide my Chaos Marines over in casual games til we get a new codex. It's better than a kick in the head at any rate.
Night Lords, "The quick and the dead."
Nope.
1 W glass cannon army.
CSM never had issues killing things, especially for melee there's plethora more than enough damage. Just doing more damage is not the problem and will not really help out.
its a nice buff for flawless host i guess tho... even more blendery than it already was, but yeah, 2 wound would've been better.
Just wait for our book to come out. In the mean time, accept that our infantry just isn't tanky and play a list that assumes they will die once they are exposed to fire.
So, play a list that goes for secondaries like ROD, engage on all front. Avoid the center which we have no hope of dominating.
Also, we can play the trading game on the center. Stage berserkers within threat range of the center. Opponent puts something on the center objective, charge a zerker squad onit and clear them out. They shoot it off, or kill it with another charge, then your turn rinse and repeat.
What's the best option for a melee-oriented helbrute? I'm thinking that a fist-scourge combination might be best, with a heavy flamer thrown possibly thrown in. The hammer is the deadliest weapon, but the minus one to hit makes me question it.
ArcaneHorror wrote: What's the best option for a melee-oriented helbrute? I'm thinking that a fist-scourge combination might be best, with a heavy flamer thrown possibly thrown in. The hammer is the deadliest weapon, but the minus one to hit makes me question it.
Hmm... but why a CSM hellbrute? Our CSM Hellbrutes don't even have the -1 damage that all other faction dreadnaughts have.
A forgeworld dreadnaught has the -1 damage, better weapon options, etc.
Within the CSMGW codex, I would argue that a Defiler is better than a hellbrute, unless you are that short on points. a Hellbrute is 110 points. A defiler with a defiler scourge costs 140 points. For just 30 more points, you get 6 more wounds, and a 5++ invul save, and infernal regeneration. Its probably a wash between defiler claw+scourge vs hellbrute fist+scourge. Especially if you can use daemon forge for just 1 CP on the defiler to reroll all hits and wounds, which you can't do on the hellbrute. Not to mention you can actually blow your smoke launchers on your defiler to give it a -1 to hit when you are charging up the board on turn 1 if you wish to.
ArcaneHorror wrote: What's the best option for a melee-oriented helbrute? I'm thinking that a fist-scourge combination might be best, with a heavy flamer thrown possibly thrown in. The hammer is the deadliest weapon, but the minus one to hit makes me question it.
Hmm... but why a CSM hellbrute? Our CSM Hellbrutes don't even have the -1 damage that all other faction dreadnaughts have.
A forgeworld dreadnaught has the -1 damage, better weapon options, etc.
Within the CSMGW codex, I would argue that a Defiler is better than a hellbrute, unless you are that short on points. a Hellbrute is 110 points. A defiler with a defiler scourge costs 140 points. For just 30 more points, you get 6 more wounds, and a 5++ invul save, and infernal regeneration. Its probably a wash between defiler claw+scourge vs hellbrute fist+scourge. Especially if you can use daemon forge for just 1 CP on the defiler to reroll all hits and wounds, which you can't do on the hellbrute. Not to mention you can actually blow your smoke launchers on your defiler to give it a -1 to hit when you are charging up the board on turn 1 if you wish to.
+1
But if you can't/don't want to field anything else then the Chaos dread I'd also avoid the hammer, except if you can reliably prescience it. But we have way better target for that...
Personally, I find that the CSM Hellbrute are a little too fragile to kit solely for melee. I play TS and EC. And if I can easily go for scourge + fist with TS. I tend to keep it back with my EC. Either with lazcannon + fist or plasma + fist (If I know I'm against marines)
Within the CSMGW codex, I would argue that a Defiler is better than a hellbrute, unless you are that short on points. a Hellbrute is 110 points. A defiler with a defiler scourge costs 140 points. For just 30 more points, you get 6 more wounds, and a 5++ invul save, and infernal regeneration. Its probably a wash between defiler claw+scourge vs hellbrute fist+scourge. Especially if you can use daemon forge for just 1 CP on the defiler to reroll all hits and wounds, which you can't do on the hellbrute. Not to mention you can actually blow your smoke launchers on your defiler to give it a -1 to hit when you are charging up the board on turn 1 if you wish to.
A helbrute benefits from legion traits, is easier to hide than a defiler, and has a smaller footprint. Id argue -1 to to hit from AL is better than smokescreen, because its always on, and doesnt cost a CP. A 5++ isnt needed when the helbrute cant be shot, when its hidden. With two power scourges the helbrute gets 12 attacks on the charge, and with +1 to hit, it scores one additional hit on a 5+. Thats four additional hits. When you roll a 6 for crazed when in melee, you get to do 12 attacks again.
Within the CSMGW codex, I would argue that a Defiler is better than a hellbrute, unless you are that short on points. a Hellbrute is 110 points. A defiler with a defiler scourge costs 140 points. For just 30 more points, you get 6 more wounds, and a 5++ invul save, and infernal regeneration. Its probably a wash between defiler claw+scourge vs hellbrute fist+scourge. Especially if you can use daemon forge for just 1 CP on the defiler to reroll all hits and wounds, which you can't do on the hellbrute. Not to mention you can actually blow your smoke launchers on your defiler to give it a -1 to hit when you are charging up the board on turn 1 if you wish to.
A helbrute benefits from legion traits, is easier to hide than a defiler, and has a smaller footprint. Id argue -1 to to hit from AL is better than smokescreen, because its always on, and doesnt cost a CP. A 5++ isnt needed when the helbrute cant be shot, when its hidden. With two power scourges the helbrute gets 12 attacks on the charge, and with +1 to hit, it scores one additional hit on a 5+. Thats four additional hits. When you roll a 6 for crazed when in melee, you get to do 12 attacks again.
Still, that's really circumstantial no ?
Always -1 (if at more then 12"). Always hidden (as long as terrains and the state of the game allows for it). 12 attacks on the charge (If they can get there without being shot down) and so on.
5++ and smoke has the merit of being consistent.
I am kinda excited to try out the new death to the false emperor. Abbadon just got a pretty decent buff with this. All CSM infantry around him gets to trigger death to the false emperor on 5s now. That's ... pretty scary. And that's against everything now, not just imperium!
Berserkers charging into combat with Abbadon's buff... absolutely sick.
Slanaash terminators with icon of excess fighting around Abaddon ... now essentially have 150% of their total attack.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am kinda excited to try out the new death to the false emperor. Abbadon just got a pretty decent buff with this. All CSM infantry around him gets to trigger death to the false emperor on 5s now. That's ... pretty scary. And that's against everything now, not just imperium!
Berserkers charging into combat with Abbadon's buff... absolutely sick.
Slanaash terminators with icon of excess fighting around Abaddon ... now essentially have 150% of their total attack.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am kinda excited to try out the new death to the false emperor. Abbadon just got a pretty decent buff with this. All CSM infantry around him gets to trigger death to the false emperor on 5s now. That's ... pretty scary. And that's against everything now, not just imperium!
Berserkers charging into combat with Abbadon's buff... absolutely sick.
Slanaash terminators with icon of excess fighting around Abaddon ... now essentially have 150% of their total attack.
Yes... but I'm not optimistic this will last.
New Codex in 2022. Can only go downhill.
Lol, you sound like you are sure our new 9th ed codex will actually make us worse ... lol
Its possible that this new death to the false emperor will become our new "trait". While we get +1 attack and +1W baked into our new codex, while having shock assault removed. There will be some points bump, but we should still be lower in cost than a primaris.
Its not a bad place to start. Plus we don't know who else gets changed in the new codex. Maybe they will make Obliterators OP ? Or venomcrawlers, lord discordants or the Lord of skulls OP. Maybe they will release Chosen with a new plastic kit and some OP chaos specific weapon options. Maybe they will release new bike models with new OP chaos weapon options? Maybe they will release new warp talons with a new OP profile ?
Maybe they will release a new Dark Apostle on a bike model with new OP rules so that we can now have smash chaplains like space marines. lol
Maybe they will update all our special characters with new rules that will make them great again? Kharn, Lucious, etc.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am kinda excited to try out the new death to the false emperor. Abbadon just got a pretty decent buff with this. All CSM infantry around him gets to trigger death to the false emperor on 5s now. That's ... pretty scary. And that's against everything now, not just imperium!
Berserkers charging into combat with Abbadon's buff... absolutely sick.
Slanaash terminators with icon of excess fighting around Abaddon ... now essentially have 150% of their total attack.
Yes... but I'm not optimistic this will last.
New Codex in 2022. Can only go downhill.
Lol, you sound like you are sure our new 9th ed codex will actually make us worse ... lol
Its possible that this new death to the false emperor will become our new "trait". While we get +1 attack and +1W baked into our new codex, while having shock assault removed. There will be some points bump, but we should still be lower in cost than a primaris.
Its not a bad place to start. Plus we don't know who else gets changed in the new codex. Maybe they will make Obliterators OP ? Or venomcrawlers, lord discordants or the Lord of skulls OP. Maybe they will release Chosen with a new plastic kit and some OP chaos specific weapon options. Maybe they will release new bike models with new OP chaos weapon options? Maybe they will release new warp talons with a new OP profile ?
Maybe they will release a new Dark Apostle on a bike model with new OP rules so that we can now have smash chaplains like space marines. lol
Maybe they will update all our special characters with new rules that will make them great again? Kharn, Lucious, etc.
Must be optimistic!
Maybe I should be more precise.
DttFE will not be as good. Lists built around this will suffer. Because CORE.
Chaos got great rules in Traitor's Hate at the end of 7th edition. Lasted 6 months, then we got 8th.
Not that 8th was bad for CSM, but we seem to get the good rules before they pull out the rugs.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am kinda excited to try out the new death to the false emperor. Abbadon just got a pretty decent buff with this. All CSM infantry around him gets to trigger death to the false emperor on 5s now. That's ... pretty scary. And that's against everything now, not just imperium!
Berserkers charging into combat with Abbadon's buff... absolutely sick.
Slanaash terminators with icon of excess fighting around Abaddon ... now essentially have 150% of their total attack.
Yes... but I'm not optimistic this will last.
New Codex in 2022. Can only go downhill.
Lol, you sound like you are sure our new 9th ed codex will actually make us worse ... lol
Its possible that this new death to the false emperor will become our new "trait". While we get +1 attack and +1W baked into our new codex, while having shock assault removed. There will be some points bump, but we should still be lower in cost than a primaris.
Its not a bad place to start. Plus we don't know who else gets changed in the new codex. Maybe they will make Obliterators OP ? Or venomcrawlers, lord discordants or the Lord of skulls OP. Maybe they will release Chosen with a new plastic kit and some OP chaos specific weapon options. Maybe they will release new bike models with new OP chaos weapon options? Maybe they will release new warp talons with a new OP profile ?
Maybe they will release a new Dark Apostle on a bike model with new OP rules so that we can now have smash chaplains like space marines. lol
Maybe they will update all our special characters with new rules that will make them great again? Kharn, Lucious, etc.
Must be optimistic!
Maybe I should be more precise.
DttFE will not be as good. Lists built around this will suffer. Because CORE.
Chaos got great rules in Traitor's Hate at the end of 7th edition. Lasted 6 months, then we got 8th.
Not that 8th was bad for CSM, but we seem to get the good rules before they pull out the rugs.
I don't get it. Most infantry are core if you look at the space marines book. Sterngard veterans are core in SM, so why would Chosen not be core? Devastators are Core , so Havocs should be Core too. Vanguard Veterans are Core as well. Assault jumppack squads are Core, so our raptors will be Core too. And even in the Tsons and DG codex, terminators and cult marines are Core. So, our elite infantry will probably all get Core.
Why does CORE come into the discussion when interacting with DttFE? I really don't understand. Most of the units we want in melee will likely have Core.
warpedpig wrote: Any suggestions on a noise marines army list with a bunch of keepers of secrets? Want to have a very thematic looking 2k list
There’s 2 ways to go with this. Put points aside for summoning (unreliable, except word bearers dark pact strategem may be able to help with that). Alternatively, dump cp into a second daemon detachment (probably that command detachment of HQ’s). This way you can take emperor’s children. I think they still get noise bois as troops. And possibly sonic dreads? The rule of cool though may override all the competitiveness you are losing in either case and I applaud you for that. On the flip side if you get a 20 man blob of tooled up noise marines to endless cacophany and stack veterans of the long war on top you should be able to delete a lot of what you come up against. Toss a lord or prescience sorcerer and you e got a fearsome Death Star. Note how I didn’t talk about the keepers. Because all I know is they are psykers and can probably punch things really well.
warpedpig wrote: Any suggestions on a noise marines army list with a bunch of keepers of secrets? Want to have a very thematic looking 2k list
There’s 2 ways to go with this. Put points aside for summoning (unreliable, except word bearers dark pact strategem may be able to help with that). Alternatively, dump cp into a second daemon detachment (probably that command detachment of HQ’s). This way you can take emperor’s children. I think they still get noise bois as troops. And possibly sonic dreads? The rule of cool though may override all the competitiveness you are losing in either case and I applaud you for that. On the flip side if you get a 20 man blob of tooled up noise marines to endless cacophany and stack veterans of the long war on top you should be able to delete a lot of what you come up against. Toss a lord or prescience sorcerer and you e got a fearsome Death Star. Note how I didn’t talk about the keepers. Because all I know is they are psykers and can probably punch things really well.
Don't forget Excruciating Frequencies for +1str +1d on sonic weapons !
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am kinda excited to try out the new death to the false emperor. Abbadon just got a pretty decent buff with this. All CSM infantry around him gets to trigger death to the false emperor on 5s now. That's ... pretty scary. And that's against everything now, not just imperium!
Berserkers charging into combat with Abbadon's buff... absolutely sick.
Slanaash terminators with icon of excess fighting around Abaddon ... now essentially have 150% of their total attack.
Abaddon and Icon of Excess do not interact at all. Icon or Abaddon + Prescience though, that will get you 4+ double hits.
I'm happy for my 10 man terminator brick for iw, deepstrike and double tap shooting with Mark of slannesh then charge in with exploding sixes and everyone has a power claw for reroll wounds!
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am kinda excited to try out the new death to the false emperor. Abbadon just got a pretty decent buff with this. All CSM infantry around him gets to trigger death to the false emperor on 5s now. That's ... pretty scary. And that's against everything now, not just imperium!
Berserkers charging into combat with Abbadon's buff... absolutely sick.
Slanaash terminators with icon of excess fighting around Abaddon ... now essentially have 150% of their total attack.
Abaddon and Icon of Excess do not interact at all. Icon or Abaddon + Prescience though, that will get you 4+ double hits.
Hmm, ok. Well, not hard to have a sorceror with prescience in a black legion army. And we save the 10 points then. I feel that with the emphasis on terrain set up these days. Putting important infantry units like berserkers into Rhinos are crucial, and they protect them quite well, until they can disembark and charge. The Rhino doesn't care about hiding behind obscuring terrain because it literally doesn't have any important guns it wants to shoot. And disembarking from transports like a Rhino increases the move and hence threat range of the zerker squad in it.
Actually, I know tons of people, including myself who used to always forget that we had a death to the false emperor rule. Now it is super important that we don't forget that we have this rule.
DttFE will not be as good. Lists built around this will suffer. Because CORE.
Chaos got great rules in Traitor's Hate at the end of 7th edition. Lasted 6 months, then we got 8th.
Not that 8th was bad for CSM, but we seem to get the good rules before they pull out the rugs.
I don't get it. Most infantry are core if you look at the space marines book. Sterngard veterans are core in SM, so why would Chosen not be core? Devastators are Core , so Havocs should be Core too. Vanguard Veterans are Core as well. Assault jumppack squads are Core, so our raptors will be Core too. And even in the Tsons and DG codex, terminators and cult marines are Core. So, our elite infantry will probably all get Core.
Why does CORE come into the discussion when interacting with DttFE? I really don't understand. Most of the units we want in melee will likely have Core.
Yes, Space Marines have Core on most of their infantry. While that may be true, not sure it's safe to assume Chaos will get the same treatment.
Probably best to call this a bad feeling, partially based on what's happened to CSM historically - things like ATSKNF mechanics and making books obsolete shortly after release. But also having to do with 9th edition itself.
Changes to Detachments in general and the Supreme Command Detachment in particular made it harder to load up on HQs, eliminating some of the power builds we saw in 8th. This new direction in game design penalizes CSM as a mid-range, melee faction that relies on cheap troops and powerful characters to get work done. Instead, we see elite units like Possessed Bombs, Obliterators and Daemon Engines becoming the focus of armies.
I don't know if GW wants to re-emphasize the role of infantry in CSM lists. I could see limits on who gets Core as a way to achieve this. Let's take it for granted CSM get Core, that leaves the following:
- Possessed
- Cult Troops
- Chosen
- Cultists
To be clear, I have no reason to suspect these units would not get this mechanic other than it would be something GW could screw up, intentionally or unintentionally. But maybe they decide this is only for troops and not elites, or maybe they decide having a mark makes them ineligible for Core. Or maybe not, and everyone does get it.
I just wouldn't count on armies that rely too heavily on DttFE to be as good once the Codex comes out.
Based on the Death Guard and Thousand Sons codexes, we can expect Cultists to NOT be CORE, or have obsec, but for all Astartes based non-character units to be CORE: Possessed, Bikers, Chosen, Terminators, Raptors, and Warp Talons. Cult Marines could be a question mark, as making them not core for CSM, but CORE in their respective Legions could be a way to separate them. But if they go the way of 3.5 and Traitor Legions, that might only matter for Black Legion, because in both of those books, they were the only Legion that could take Cult Marines outside of their own Legions.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I don't see why, other than 1KSons Marines, the other Cult Troops wouldn't be core.
Not all Berzerkers/Noise Marines/Plague Marines are World Eaters/Emperor's Children/Death Guard, after all.
Yes.
And yet, my concern remains, that GW would see it differently.
The CSM Misery Index is a running list I've been keeping, spelling out rules / mechanics where GW could miss the mark in the new Codex. Suppose it's time to share so others can contribute.
- Infernal Jealousy Equivalent: DG have a rule called Infernal Jealousy. Limits you to 1 "Lord" per detachment or 1 Daemon Prince per detachment. Other than that, the only HQ you can take is Sorcerers. Could see them making every HQ a Lord but for Sorcerers.
- Veteran Skills: DG have the Deadly Pathogens equivalent, special abilities for specific units. Could see it be a set of options at the level of -1 AP for Bolters, +1 to leadership rolls, +2" to flamers on charging units, advance and shoot with rapid fire weapons, Warpflame Gargoyles, etc.
- What's In the Box: Havocs come with 1 Chaincannon. Could see GW limiting units (like Havocs) to 1 of each heavy weapon, which would mean a lot of people are remodelling.
- Marks: The only real use for Marks right now is access to Stratagems. Could see them keeping this but making it more strict (for example: Black Legion Infantry with Mark of Nurgle.)
- Predators / Land Raiders / Vindicators: These vehicles are severely overcosted compared to Imperial / Ork options. Everything else is more shooty for about the same price. Either the statline needs to go up or the price needs to go down. Could see the inverse occurring.
- Dumb Secondaries: given many secondaries can be triggered by just standing somewhere, could see CSM getting a lot of "rituals" that involve separating your forces all over the board. Could see GW using this as a way to keep CSM weak relative to Imperials.
- Core Restrictions: outside Characters, only CSMs and Chosen get Core. Could see GW doing this just to nerf HQs, which were overpowered in 8th.
- Daemon Engines: have not understood, relative to units in other armies, how Daemon Engines are better in this edition. Could see GW giving them special rules that make it too expensive to field more than a couple in a list.
- Deep Strike Stratagems: seems like all armies are getting Stratagems that allow units to deep strike for CP. Could see CSM becoming dependent on this mechanic.
- Legion Traits: it was pretty clear in 8th that Alpha Legion had the best Legion trait. Could see GW doing a cut and paste for most armies.
I know this has come up before, but can someone remind me:
Rubrics are specifically 1KSons, right? There are no Rubrics from other non-aligned Legions*? There are potentially Tzeentch-aligned Chaos Marines out there that aren't Rubrics because the whole Rubric thing was something that happened to the Thousand Sons, correct?
*I am aware that Black Legion takes in forces from other Legions, but Rubrics in the Black Legion would have originated from the Thousand Sons, yes?
H.B.M.C. wrote: I know this has come up before, but can someone remind me:
Rubrics are specifically 1KSons, right? There are no Rubrics from other non-aligned Legions*? There are potentially Tzeentch-aligned Chaos Marines out there that aren't Rubrics because the whole Rubric thing was something that happened to the Thousand Sons, correct?
*I am aware that Black Legion takes in forces from other Legions, but Rubrics in the Black Legion would have originated from the Thousand Sons, yes?
The rituals to turn marines into Ruberics or "close enough" versions are out there, and much like the Butcher Nail surgeons, the black legion has brought most of the sorcerers capable of this into their fold.
Hell I could also see Tzeentch dusting some marines as a 'blessing'. Aka they were promised untold arcane power, Tzeentch gave them the power but also turned them into animated armour so they're unable to use their new found gifts. Just as planned.
Wow... I just had a game where I finally dusted off my CSM and brought them out after well over a year. I was going to try out our new "death to the false emperor". All I can say is ... "wow! Its good!" lol
I brought a pure black legion list. Not soup, not mixed legion. Just pure black legion. Starting with 13 CP because of Abaddon was the first refreshing difference.
Shout out to my opponent as well. Although it was a casual game, he is a great player, and loves to bring pretty good lists. Yet, he doesn't sweat the small things and games with him always end up really enjoyable. I have learnt a lot from him.
So, here's my list:
Abaddon (warlord).
Terminator Sorceror (delightful agonies + warptime) with the relic angelsbane.
30 cultists
2 squads of 10 cultists
2 squads of 5 Berzerkers in a Rhino (champ w lightning claw)
2 squads of 5 Berzerkers in a Rhino (champ w lightning claw)
10 terminators, all with lightning claw and combi bolters.
2 squads of 5 raptors, champ w lightning claw
1 Khorne Lord of Skulls (1cp).
He brought Necrons. I can't remember the whole list. But it had roughly 1 squad of 5 immortals, 3 squads of 5 scarabs, 3 squads of 6 Wraiths, Nightbringer and Void Dragon, a Catacomb Command Barge Lord, Szeras and a unit of Cryptothralls. It looks very troop lite (only 1 troop), until you realise he took the custom dynasty that gives him army wide pregame move plus everything except the 2 C'tans are obsec.
Anyway, I won't post the full battle report here. I will just summarise the best parts for me. This was when his first 6 man wraith unit charged into my Terminator squad, whiffed and killed only 1 terminator, and in retaliation, my terminator squad obliterated that entire wraith squad in one combat phase!
And then next turn, the same terminator squad charged into a second wraith squad ... and obliterated it as well... lol.
Let me just say... Black legion terminators with lightning claw, and backed by Abbadon are... obscene. They are rerolling all hits, so I can reroll all my 1,2,3,4s to fish for 5,6s which are exploding hits. And then I vets for 1CP so that now they are +1 to wound plus they reroll all failed wounds because lightning claws...
I didn't even need to use the Mercilous Fighters strategem to add 1 more attack because it was already overkill!
H.B.M.C. wrote: I know this has come up before, but can someone remind me:
Rubrics are specifically 1KSons, right? There are no Rubrics from other non-aligned Legions*? There are potentially Tzeentch-aligned Chaos Marines out there that aren't Rubrics because the whole Rubric thing was something that happened to the Thousand Sons, correct?
*I am aware that Black Legion takes in forces from other Legions, but Rubrics in the Black Legion would have originated from the Thousand Sons, yes?
If a non-Thousand Sons army has Rubric Marines it's because they acquired a Thousand Sons sorcerer somehow (like Iskandar Khayon in the Black Legion). The Scourged are another Tzeentch CSM cult that aren't known for having dusty boys at all, they're all perfectly normal marines who have been driven to insanity by having every lie ever spoken by humanity drilled into their brains. It'd be weird to run any Rubrics in a Scourged list.
Without access to combat doctrines and other rules that make loyalist power armor work, is the second wound on chaos space marines going to gimp us harder because of the increased point cost for an increasingly more useless profile? I talk of course about the bolter. And won’t it make us more fragile points wise to the meta of d2 weapons?
macluvin wrote: Without access to combat doctrines and other rules that make loyalist power armor work, is the second wound on chaos space marines going to gimp us harder because of the increased point cost for an increasingly more useless profile? I talk of course about the bolter. And won’t it make us more fragile points wise to the meta of d2 weapons?
I'm sure we'll get something to make our stuff "work". Death Guard got Contagions, 1ksons got extra AP. But it shouldn't be Doctrines. Doctrines are for loyalists. CSM have Marks and Veteran Skills. Just wait for the codex before you start worrying.
macluvin wrote: Without access to combat doctrines and other rules that make loyalist power armor work, is the second wound on chaos space marines going to gimp us harder because of the increased point cost for an increasingly more useless profile? I talk of course about the bolter. And won’t it make us more fragile points wise to the meta of d2 weapons?
I'm sure we'll get something to make our stuff "work". Death Guard got Contagions, 1ksons got extra AP. But it shouldn't be Doctrines. Doctrines are for loyalists. CSM have Marks and Veteran Skills. Just wait for the codex before you start worrying.
We haven’t had veteran skills in decades... and marks of chaos haven’t done anything besides unlock stratagems, which have made chaos known as a faction heavily reliant on CP to win. I never was a fan of having a strategem that allows you to double a shooting units shooting power but it was a necessity... Granted, attaching special rules to marks of chaos has the potential to balance out the lack of doctrines and their vastly superior traits. Which based on previous design, having comparably suboptimal traits is likely to carry over.
macluvin wrote: Without access to combat doctrines and other rules that make loyalist power armor work, is the second wound on chaos space marines going to gimp us harder because of the increased point cost for an increasingly more useless profile? I talk of course about the bolter. And won’t it make us more fragile points wise to the meta of d2 weapons?
I'm sure we'll get something to make our stuff "work". Death Guard got Contagions, 1ksons got extra AP. But it shouldn't be Doctrines. Doctrines are for loyalists. CSM have Marks and Veteran Skills. Just wait for the codex before you start worrying.
We haven’t had veteran skills in decades... and marks of chaos haven’t done anything besides unlock stratagems, which have made chaos known as a faction heavily reliant on CP to win. I never was a fan of having a strategem that allows you to double a shooting units shooting power but it was a necessity... Granted, attaching special rules to marks of chaos has the potential to balance out the lack of doctrines and their vastly superior traits. Which based on previous design, having comparably suboptimal traits is likely to carry over.
Fourteen years isn't "decades". And Legion Command and Deadly Pathogens both look a lot like an amalgam of Veteran Skills and Daemonic Gifts to me. We'll probably get our own version of those, doesn't matter what they call them, as long as it gives us back some customization and a way to improve our units outside of Marks. I'll take that instead of Doctrines any day. Doctrines are for loyalists, not Chaos Space Marines. CSM need their own thing.
Good to hear that people are seeing some joy with the new rules! I'm going to the Leicester GT on Saturday and an taking my iron warriors with this list..
The plan is for the lord and the 3 dreads to advance to the middle and just shoot everything then charge in. Sorcerer will be behind them giving them extra invulnerable and prescience.
Disco lord and his 2 friends the venomcrawlers will push on another objective and wait for the terminators and oblits to come help
3 squads of marines will full e on objectives and do actions for me.
It's a very blunt list and I'm looking forward to using it.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Doctrines are for loyalists, not Chaos Space Marines. CSM need their own thing.
"Hateful Directives".
They do the same, but sound more angry.
Yeah.....if they do that you'll be just as annoyed as me.
You are most probably correct that we are getting a rough equivalent in the chaos space marine codex as what death guard and tsons got. People love playing those codices too so I would not be bummed out if that's what we got as well. I still would rather a new index edition rather than a new codex XD I wouldn't feel bummed out to be left out of the 9th edition codex creep.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Wow... I just had a game where I finally dusted off my CSM and brought them out after well over a year. I was going to try out our new "death to the false emperor". All I can say is ... "wow! Its good!" lol
I brought a pure black legion list. Not soup, not mixed legion. Just pure black legion. Starting with 13 CP because of Abaddon was the first refreshing difference.
Shout out to my opponent as well. Although it was a casual game, he is a great player, and loves to bring pretty good lists. Yet, he doesn't sweat the small things and games with him always end up really enjoyable. I have learnt a lot from him.
So, here's my list:
Abaddon (warlord).
Terminator Sorceror (delightful agonies + warptime) with the relic angelsbane.
30 cultists
2 squads of 10 cultists
2 squads of 5 Berzerkers in a Rhino (champ w lightning claw)
2 squads of 5 Berzerkers in a Rhino (champ w lightning claw)
10 terminators, all with lightning claw and combi bolters.
2 squads of 5 raptors, champ w lightning claw
1 Khorne Lord of Skulls (1cp).
He brought Necrons. I can't remember the whole list. But it had roughly 1 squad of 5 immortals, 3 squads of 5 scarabs, 3 squads of 6 Wraiths, Nightbringer and Void Dragon, a Catacomb Command Barge Lord, Szeras and a unit of Cryptothralls. It looks very troop lite (only 1 troop), until you realise he took the custom dynasty that gives him army wide pregame move plus everything except the 2 C'tans are obsec.
Anyway, I won't post the full battle report here. I will just summarise the best parts for me. This was when his first 6 man wraith unit charged into my Terminator squad, whiffed and killed only 1 terminator, and in retaliation, my terminator squad obliterated that entire wraith squad in one combat phase!
And then next turn, the same terminator squad charged into a second wraith squad ... and obliterated it as well... lol.
Let me just say... Black legion terminators with lightning claw, and backed by Abbadon are... obscene. They are rerolling all hits, so I can reroll all my 1,2,3,4s to fish for 5,6s which are exploding hits. And then I vets for 1CP so that now they are +1 to wound plus they reroll all failed wounds because lightning claws...
I didn't even need to use the Mercilous Fighters strategem to add 1 more attack because it was already overkill!
I love our new Death to the False Emperor!
Abaddon, a gakload of cultists, and an Apostle with the 5++ prayer would make for an interesting list. Not terribly punchy, but definitely more than it used to be and crazy hard to remove.
Given the Long War update now effecting everything, has anyone given any special thought to pulling back out the Creations of Bile? The legion trait is really good for combat, where the 6+ auto hits are in effect, whereas Bile gives these units +1 attack so it can proc more often.
Seems decently powerful, fueled up on Raptors and Warp Talons and his own pet Daemon Prince flying around. Seems like one of the more melee capable ways that Chaos can be run.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Given the Long War update now effecting everything, has anyone given any special thought to pulling back out the Creations of Bile? The legion trait is really good for combat, where the 6+ auto hits are in effect, whereas Bile gives these units +1 attack so it can proc more often.
Seems decently powerful, fueled up on Raptors and Warp Talons and his own pet Daemon Prince flying around. Seems like one of the more melee capable ways that Chaos can be run.
Hmm maybe. But would it be better than a world eaters army that also gets +1 attack and where the berserkers are obsec ?
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Given the Long War update now effecting everything, has anyone given any special thought to pulling back out the Creations of Bile? The legion trait is really good for combat, where the 6+ auto hits are in effect, whereas Bile gives these units +1 attack so it can proc more often.
Seems decently powerful, fueled up on Raptors and Warp Talons and his own pet Daemon Prince flying around. Seems like one of the more melee capable ways that Chaos can be run.
Creations of Bile legion trait sucks. Bile doesnt even benefit from his own legion trait, WTF ? Biles Enhancements suck. It works at the end of the movement phase. So your raptors/warp talons need to wait T1 until bile enhances them, and its only one unit you can enhance. In T2 you can start to move, and maybe in T3 you reach melee, but your unit is probably already dead, or reduced to almost nothing.
So, Chosen are actually decent now, with our new Death the the False Everyone rules. Has anyone tried out Chosen in a Rhino ?
5 Chosen, with Mark of Slanaash and Icon of Excess, all 5 with one lightning claw. They still have their bolters. The squad is 95 points, and hits like a truck. Its gets exploding 5s for additional hits, and rerolls to wound with lightning claws on a base 21 attacks when it charges or is charged.
Putting a squad or even two such squads in a Rhino doesn't sound too bad.
I've been rolling with a squad of 8 with claws, and 6 plasma in a dreadclaw with my World Eaters - they're a credible threat to drop in and clear something and don't need a ton of support.
If you put combibolters on them in that slaanesh setup you can also blast a screen away. Or have combibolters and a plasma/claw squad to roll in after you shred those screens.
I wouldn’t do it against older codices because I don’t know what tools they have to deal with 2w space marine profiles but against anyone with a 9th edition codex? From what I hear adding a second wound can be practically free and make them play approximately where they feel they should be playing. I’m worried that our models will be a single ppm cheaper than loyalists and have a crappier pool of legion traits than the loyalist equivalent, and no compensation for doctrines, leaving us crappier marines that need to lean on daemon engines like we had been, or being a one trick army relying on some double tap strat to carry our army (like it has been). I want power armor (and terminator armor) to feel like it belongs in a chaos space marine list. The new codices at least seem optimistically experimental with seeking out some sort of variation in mechanics though so I am hopeful.
Keramory wrote: Has anyone experimented with playing chaos marines with 2 wounds, just upping the points a little to match loyalists? Did you notice any difference?
Personally I only do it with a pal of mine who plays Space Wolves and Thousand Sons. We homerule it as 2w without points increases and I still loose with my Emperor's Children most of the time At this point we both feel bad when I try to play with 1w Noise Marines so we don't really do it any more. But it still feel like my army somewhat lags behind. Still we have some nice fun !
Keramory wrote: Has anyone experimented with playing chaos marines with 2 wounds, just upping the points a little to match loyalists? Did you notice any difference?
Personally I only do it with a pal of mine who plays Space Wolves and Thousand Sons. We homerule it as 2w without points increases and I still loose with my Emperor's Children most of the time At this point we both feel bad when I try to play with 1w Noise Marines so we don't really do it any more. But it still feel like my army somewhat lags behind. Still we have some nice fun !
Never got a chance to test it because me and my group drifted away from 40k, but I had the theory that you could do 2W CSM without changing the points and it wouldn't make it that much better... "good" to see it may have had some legs.
Interesting leak from Auspex tactics Channel. There are no more brood brothers in GSC. Instead, there is this rule that if you can bring an allied detachment from Astra Militarium (only certain units usable), and if its less than 25%, you still get the GSC crossfire rule.
Could this possibly also be the way they will handle Renegade Guard for CSM ?
The good thing is that they can just update the AM codex in future and it will affect GSC brood brothers and CSM renegade Guard equally. And it can open the way for us to ally in an allied Guard detachment to use them as renegade guard. And all the datasheets will be from the AM codex, so they will all be the same.
The bad thing is we now have to pay the CP tax to bring them as an allied detachment. This... might make me seriously look at what is interesting in the AM codex. Because have an allied renegade guard unit is pretty fluffy for a CSM force.
And maybe they will do the same thing for Daemons units too. So, same thing, if less than 25% of the force is Daemons codex taken as an allied detachment, maybe we won't lose whatever CSM battleforged rule we will get.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Could this possibly also be the way they will handle Renegade Guard for CSM?
100% dependant on miniatures. 200%, really.
They don't sell Brood Brother Chimeras/Sentinels/Russes and even the Guard Squad is an outdated box with an accessory sprue thrown in. So basically they don't sell Brood Brother minis, so it's no wonder they were deleted from the Codex.
If we get actual Traitor Guard minis as part of this apparent big release, then they'll be in the Codex. If we don't, they won't.
And I'd love for the Daemons part to be true, other than the weird 25% limit which just seems needlessly arbitrary to me. Doubly so when the game already has a built-in mechanic for determining game size (Combat Patrol/Incursion/Strike Force/Onslaught) that could be used to determine what detachment types you could bring, eg:
If playing a Combat Patrol, you can't bring anything more than a 1-3 Brood Brother Auxiliary Detachments, at Incursion you could bring up to a Patrol, Strike Force up to a Battalion, and for Onslaught a Battalion and/or other types. Same could apply to Daemons for Chaos. Use the mechanics already inherent in the rules rather than constantly trying to hammer that wheel into a better shape.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Could this possibly also be the way they will handle Renegade Guard for CSM?
100% dependant on miniatures. 200%, really.
They don't sell Brood Brother Chimeras/Sentinels/Russes and even the Guard Squad is an outdated box with an accessory sprue thrown in. So basically they don't sell Brood Brother minis, so it's no wonder they were deleted from the Codex.
If we get actual Traitor Guard minis as part of this apparent big release, then they'll be in the Codex. If we don't, they won't.
And I'd love for the Daemons part to be true, other than the weird 25% limit which just seems needlessly arbitrary to me. Doubly so when the game already has a built-in mechanic for determining game size (Combat Patrol/Incursion/Strike Force/Onslaught) that could be used to determine what detachment types you could bring, eg:
If playing a Combat Patrol, you can't bring anything more than a 1-3 Brood Brother Auxiliary Detachments, at Incursion you could bring up to a Patrol, Strike Force up to a Battalion, and for Onslaught a Battalion and/or other types. Same could apply to Daemons for Chaos. Use the mechanics already inherent in the rules rather than constantly trying to hammer that wheel into a better shape.
Well, according to the so far very accurate rumordump, we will be getting actual Traitor Guardsmen. The question is just how they'll be implemented in the codex. I'm personally hoping for the option to run a 100% Traitor Guard/LatD/R&H army, no Astartes. But we won't know what we can do with them until we hear something about the codex, which hopefully will happen sometime this decade.
So I'm thinking of making a fluffy army that was basically a loyal Space Marine chapter sacrificed to the Chaos Gods, turning them all into Chaos abominations. Possessed, Helbrutes, and Daemon Engines. It's the first list I've dabbled with using two detachments, aiming for a more daemonic and elite feel to the army.
Garfuncle wrote: So I'm thinking of making a fluffy army that was basically a loyal Space Marine chapter sacrificed to the Chaos Gods, turning them all into Chaos abominations. Possessed, Helbrutes, and Daemon Engines. It's the first list I've dabbled with using two detachments, aiming for a more daemonic and elite feel to the army.
Sad that Lord of skulls actually went up 15 points in the latest chapter approved. A big superheavy that cannot hide just gets deleted so easily nowadays. Why did it go up 15 points... sigh
Eldenfirefly wrote: Sad that Lord of skulls actually went up 15 points in the latest chapter approved. A big superheavy that cannot hide just gets deleted so easily nowadays. Why did it go up 15 points... sigh
Because GW play a very different game to the rest of us.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Sad that Lord of skulls actually went up 15 points in the latest chapter approved. A big superheavy that cannot hide just gets deleted so easily nowadays. Why did it go up 15 points... sigh
Because GW play a very different game to the rest of us.
These are the same people that gave a 2+ save to Leman Russes and not to Baneblades for some bizarre reason, and think that the stompa is costed properly for what it does. So yeah, GW has no idea what actually works or not.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Sad that Lord of skulls actually went up 15 points in the latest chapter approved. A big superheavy that cannot hide just gets deleted so easily nowadays. Why did it go up 15 points... sigh
Aye, gw brags that the new CA is going to "buff" vehicles, and the one change to any CSM vehicles is a nerf to our one plastic LoW. And our fwLoWs are still under the 1CP Martial Legacy tax, and already looking overpriced compared to the Tau Stormsurge and leaked Eldar Wraithknight even without that. Such balance.
I have tried out my Lord of skulls in quite a few games now (I am a die hard fan). There was only one game it survived. Every other game it was dead by turn 1. And if not turn 1, then turn 2. More often than not, one round of shooting was enough to destroy it.
And these days, with so many units getting -1 damage, that Hades Gatling gun is looking weaker and weaker.
I just ran a brass scorpion... it lived until bottom of turn 3. It could not survive 2 turns in combat with scorptek destroyers (the mellee ones). If I recall I was charged, I fell back and charged back in after I healed it... but yeah... it died. Course the work it did in shooting on the first two turns was crazy.
Sazzlefrats wrote: I just ran a brass scorpion... it lived until bottom of turn 3. It could not survive 2 turns in combat with scorptek destroyers (the mellee ones). If I recall I was charged, I fell back and charged back in after I healed it... but yeah... it died. Course the work it did in shooting on the first two turns was crazy.
I've used it twice since its new rules. Unfortunately it's got good damage output but it's just so easily put down. It needs something a little more just to make it slightly tougher, especially when I look at something like the Silent King or Telemon. I Imagine that's a running theme with many LOW though.
I really think for super heavies like Lord of skull or brass scorpian (not a full knight army). There should be a rule that say the model cannot lose more than half its wounds each turn. This way, we at the very least get maybe 2 turns of use out of it before it dies. Otherwise, its just not playable when we put it on the table and it then it gets killed within one turn.
Sazzlefrats wrote: I just ran a brass scorpion... it lived until bottom of turn 3. It could not survive 2 turns in combat with scorptek destroyers (the mellee ones). If I recall I was charged, I fell back and charged back in after I healed it... but yeah... it died. Course the work it did in shooting on the first two turns was crazy.
I didn't think it could be affected by any friendly psychic powers? EDIT: Read the rules again. It can. Ignore me.
On a side note, in comparison to the stormsurge, the GBS is laughable. Just even on defensive points. SS - T8, 22W, 4++, 2+ for I think I heard 340pts. GBS - T8, 28W, 5++, 3+ and healing 1 wound per turn for 525pts. Damage output is more reliable on the stormsurge too and I think they can get drones...
I didn't think it could be affected by any friendly psychic powers? EDIT: Read the rules again. It can. Ignore me.
On a side note, in comparison to the stormsurge, the GBS is laughable. Just even on defensive points. SS - T8, 22W, 4++, 2+ for I think I heard 340pts. GBS - T8, 28W, 5++, 3+ and healing 1 wound per turn for 525pts. Damage output is more reliable on the stormsurge too and I think they can get drones...
Let's just hope that when our codex finally drops our big toys might be easier to use. On that topic, does anyone think some of our Forgeworld stuff will get massively updated ? Or it'll simply be updated in the line of our new dex ?
I didn't think it could be affected by any friendly psychic powers? EDIT: Read the rules again. It can. Ignore me.
On a side note, in comparison to the stormsurge, the GBS is laughable. Just even on defensive points. SS - T8, 22W, 4++, 2+ for I think I heard 340pts. GBS - T8, 28W, 5++, 3+ and healing 1 wound per turn for 525pts. Damage output is more reliable on the stormsurge too and I think they can get drones...
Let's just hope that when our codex finally drops our big toys might be easier to use. On that topic, does anyone think some of our Forgeworld stuff will get massively updated ? Or it'll simply be updated in the line of our new dex ?
Probably just updated to be in line with the codex. Gw doesn't seem to be very interested in keeping marine fw units in line with the rest of the game outside of the dreadnoughts. Compare the previously mentioned Stormsurge to the Cerberus: both are basically platforms for big guns with similar damage potentials that can be increased for sitting still, but the Stormsurge is better against T8 because its gun is S16 compared to the Cerberus' guns S14. Durability isn't anywhere close though, with the Stormsurge being 22W, T8, 2+, 4++ and the Cerberus being 20W, T8, 2+. But the Cerberus is 70 PPM more expensive. Similar comparisons can be made between the Hammerhead and Sicaran, and the "new and improved" Wraithknight and our big LoWs like Fellblades and Falchions. Gw just refuses to keep them priced in line with similar units in newer codexes.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Sad that Lord of skulls actually went up 15 points in the latest chapter approved. A big superheavy that cannot hide just gets deleted so easily nowadays. Why did it go up 15 points... sigh
I wouldn't worry about it too much, it's probably only going to be available to WE.
are there currently any advice regarding starting into CSM beside ,don’t’? Everything I look ip about CSM looks damn grim. I have gathered some kits the last couple of weeks but am simply afraid to build them as CSM future seems so uncertain. I initially tought about converting the models into a Dornian Heresy Space Wolves but with the rumour about an upcoming WorldEater Standalone Tome I feel quite uncertain about it as I don’t know what units will be invalidated. Am I too grim on this? Has anyone maybe a tip how to get out of this frustrating state?
are there currently any advice regarding starting into CSM beside ,don’t’? Everything I look ip about CSM looks damn grim. I have gathered some kits the last couple of weeks but am simply afraid to build them as CSM future seems so uncertain. I initially tought about converting the models into a Dornian Heresy Space Wolves but with the rumour about an upcoming WorldEater Standalone Tome I feel quite uncertain about it as I don’t know what units will be invalidated. Am I too grim on this? Has anyone maybe a tip how to get out of this frustrating state?
If you're more interested in rules, wait. A new Codex is on the horizon.
If you just want to build cool models, go nuts-just be aware that, well, new Codex soon. Whatever you build might not be good, or even legal.
are there currently any advice regarding starting into CSM beside ,don’t’? Everything I look ip about CSM looks damn grim. I have gathered some kits the last couple of weeks but am simply afraid to build them as CSM future seems so uncertain. I initially tought about converting the models into a Dornian Heresy Space Wolves but with the rumour about an upcoming WorldEater Standalone Tome I feel quite uncertain about it as I don’t know what units will be invalidated. Am I too grim on this? Has anyone maybe a tip how to get out of this frustrating state?
I had somewhat better chances when I went with soup. 1000 points into a Death Guard detachment and 1000 points into CSM. The 1000 points into DG gives you access to taking a core squad of DG terminators. If its deathshrouds, you get the bodyguard rule (everyone is abusing it, we might as well). Plus then you get some truly resilient infantry that even go up and fight in the center. Also, you get in heavy support plague burst crawlers, which are now our best tanks in the game (I say that with confidence). Now we get our own out of line of sight shooting too, and they have D3+3 damage entropy cannons. We can stop caring about our lascannons.
Then the 1000 points in our own CSM detachment we can outfit as we see fit. but at 60 points, I kind of like 3 squads of CSM now. Has armor 3+ and can at least fight well in close combat. And cheap so can throwaway to do objectives and actions and stuff. Similarly, we can take raptors. They are very cheap and can deep strike in, again to do actions like Retrieve Data or just charge and fight something.
So, now we have a resilient core of DG terminators that can bully the center if we wish. We got good tanks (PBC). We got cheap stuff to do actions, deep strike in all over the board and do objectives. The rest is up to you how you want to design your army then. But at least now we don't feel so fragile (DG adds a lot to our resilience). And CSM has the mobility and cheap stuff which DG lacks too. So its a good mix. We are a 8th edition codex, so we don't care about souping.
Someone please explain to me when the dreadclaw drop pod is considered to have moved over an enemy unit to cause mortal wounds. Moving when? The turn it lands? How do you determine what it’s flying over ?
are there currently any advice regarding starting into CSM beside ,don’t’? Everything I look ip about CSM looks damn grim. I have gathered some kits the last couple of weeks but am simply afraid to build them as CSM future seems so uncertain. I initially tought about converting the models into a Dornian Heresy Space Wolves but with the rumour about an upcoming WorldEater Standalone Tome I feel quite uncertain about it as I don’t know what units will be invalidated. Am I too grim on this? Has anyone maybe a tip how to get out of this frustrating state?
I had somewhat better chances when I went with soup. 1000 points into a Death Guard detachment and 1000 points into CSM. The 1000 points into DG gives you access to taking a core squad of DG terminators. If its deathshrouds, you get the bodyguard rule (everyone is abusing it, we might as well). Plus then you get some truly resilient infantry that even go up and fight in the center. Also, you get in heavy support plague burst crawlers, which are now our best tanks in the game (I say that with confidence). Now we get our own out of line of sight shooting too, and they have D3+3 damage entropy cannons. We can stop caring about our lascannons.
Then the 1000 points in our own CSM detachment we can outfit as we see fit. but at 60 points, I kind of like 3 squads of CSM now. Has armor 3+ and can at least fight well in close combat. And cheap so can throwaway to do objectives and actions and stuff. Similarly, we can take raptors. They are very cheap and can deep strike in, again to do actions like Retrieve Data or just charge and fight something.
So, now we have a resilient core of DG terminators that can bully the center if we wish. We got good tanks (PBC). We got cheap stuff to do actions, deep strike in all over the board and do objectives. The rest is up to you how you want to design your army then. But at least now we don't feel so fragile (DG adds a lot to our resilience). And CSM has the mobility and cheap stuff which DG lacks too. So its a good mix. We are a 8th edition codex, so we don't care about souping.
Gotta disagree with this heavily. If you want cheap bodies, you have to take advantage of the fact the CSM codex isn't limited on Cultists. The MEQ bodies as present aren't very worth it compared to even a Plague Marine. So what you SHOULD do is take advantage of Cultists and the tools available that aren't here for some reason, like Oblits. That'll depend on the list though. One time I took a suicide World Eater Terminator Lord that had the Red Butchers Strat to help support my Blight Lords in melee with incredibly minor success.
Is the Kharybdis assault claw going to be coming back for 9th edition use? I wanna drop a blob of 20 noise marines. But it seems it’s not even an option you can take right now.
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warpedpig wrote: Is the Kharybdis assault claw going to be coming back for 9th edition use? I wanna drop a blob of 20 noise marines. But it seems it’s not even an option you can take right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Is the Kharybdis assault claw going to be coming back for 9th edition use? I wanna drop a blob of 20 noise marines. But it seems it’s not even an option you can take right now.
Pretty sure a new Huron is already on deck. A recent-ish preview showed an odd claw with an inbuilt flamer. It is a crying shame over the lord with maneuverability though. I imagine they want that to be strictly a Prince's domain
Mostly in the news & rumors thread about them. Already working on a few ideas but... hard to come up with much when I don't like what I'm seeing so far. Tzeentch chosen may be interesting at least, and the new cultists+mutants unit might end up being the go-to troops unit... if it is one.
Hmmm, what's everyone's thoughts on the new balance data slate? Its potentially huge for CSM. Our stuff are already cheap, and now they just got a lot more durable, with the armour of contempt buff.
Like a full out Red Corsairs army spamming 20 man CSM units that can advance and charge? At 12 points, you can pack easily 150 models of power armored CSM into an army. Imagine dealing with 150 obsec models with an effecftive 2+ armor save? lol
And like 30 Emperor's Children terminators with double lightning claws and icon of excess will delete stuff they charge, and now, after they kill stuff. They are sticking around! Because good luck trying to kill 10 of these terminators with effectively a 1+ save or a 0+ save if they charge into cover. (Who even needs the 5+ invul at this stage).
Also, with the buff to terminators. You can totally march Abbadon up the field protected by big bloc of teminators now. Those terminators are going to stick around long enough for Abbadon to reach the midfield where he will get to really wreck stuff with his awesome melee. Given that AP 0 is the same as AP1 now. Our bolters actually got "buffed". Abaddon giving reroll to all hits to 30 models of combi bolter + lightning claw black legion terminators marching up the midboard .. that's
120 bolter shots with reroll all hits. lol. And they will destroy whatever they touch once they charge into melee. (Not to mention Abby is with them).
And all our vehicles just got buffed. Like our Hellbrutes are so cheap and now they have an effective 2+ armor save with that armour of contempt. Same goes for our Venom Crawlers. Like 3 Hellbrutes + 3 Venomcrawlers are around 600+ points ? And that's a lot of wounds that now have an effective 2+ armor save. Even our Rhinos got tougher. You are going to need to put melta shots into them to get the job done. Small arms fire aren't going to do much against a Rhino unless you really pour a huge amount into them.
And our CSM troops are now far better than cultists now. Put 5 of those in cover on a back objective behind obscuring. They got a 1+ save against out of LOS shooting. those 60 points of CSM are sticking around.
I think people are under estimating how much Armour of Contempt buffs CSM. We had no problems with killing stuff, we were just fragile. Now we have gotten a huge boost to our armor saves.
Yes, but so many stuff have AP 1 or better these days its effectively a 2+. Only our own chaos factions are still rocking bolters with a AP0. And just stand them in cover. That will give them an effective 2+ armor save. Its easy.
Like how many people are running stuff with AP0 these days... other than CSM with our old bolters... lol
Also.....HERETIC ASTARTES....meaning one last "screw you" to FALLEN, who in addition to the turd that was the white dwarf release of a specialist detachment you cant use anywhere also don't get this rule either.
In light of the recent Armour of Contempt rule, has the Night Lords' Stormbolt Plate artefact now become one of the best suits of armour in the game? A 2+ save that effectively ignores the first two points of AP seems pretty powerful, even if it's against shooting only.
I get that you can't stick it on a Daemon Prince and that you'll prefer your character to not get shot at all, but a 3+ save against plasma still beats a Lord's sigil of corruption, is better than a Sorcerer's termie armour save and could be a fun extra relic on a Greater Possessed.
And yeah, I know it's likely only a few weeks until our new codex gives us a whole new range of toys to play with, but CSM are my only army and I'm not shelving them until the book drops. And I play Night Lords half the time even though their Legion trait is, uh, sub-par.
Lord of Chaos/Sorcerer on termi (Still wondering which should I choose)
-Lord of Chaos on servo (DV)
-Master of Possesion (SC)
-Warpsmith
-Dark Apostle
-5 very old chaos terminators (already rebased)
-12 old chaos space marines (four are zerkers in disguise)
-Hellbrute (DV)
-6 chosen (DV)
-20 cultists (DV) (and like, 30 more cultists kitbashed)
-5 raptors/warptalons (haven't decided which yet)
-Tons of cultists kitbashed
-5 fallen
-Venomcrawler (SC)
-10 new chaos space marines (SC)
-2 Greater Possesed (SC)
-2 oblits (SC)
-10 horrors of Tzeentch
-1 Herald
-1 Great Incinerator
I have like 180 euros saved for new releases, but I was thinking, iS it any good souping with TS? I just love them too, and there are some guys here in Spain still selling the old Start Collecting. And Chaos Knights? Do I need more vehicles?
(btw, i. just waiting for that Demon Prince bcs hes going to be the lord of my army. If he doesnt come this summer, Ill buy Abaddon I guess)
Sounds like you both have a ton of stuff. Don't buy anything now, wait a few weeks for the book. You might possibly have everything you would actually want for an army list.
The new Strategem Grandfather's Blessings now give transhuman to a Nurgle unit in CSM.
So, Plague Marines have Nurgle keyword and CORE right?
So, we can use this strategem to give our CSM plague Marines transhuman right?
And since the datasheet is taken from the DG codex ... that means all special weapons on plague marines remain free right?
Doesn't this make a big block of 10 plague marines in a CSM codex ridiculously good? Because all of their special weapons are free, and we can make them Transhuman... I mean, sure they are elites and not obsec, but we can just have a character with the new revamped relic Cloak of Conquest behind this unit. And now boom... the whole unit is now Obsec. Problem solved.
I don;t know if kill shot and -1 to hit makes predator tanks fieldable. But its worth discussing and thinking about.
