More than one faction seems to be considering bring a lot of vehicles. And transports got a boost this edition too. So, I wonder if a list with few or zero vehicles would be kind of a counter meta list.
The Bile Subfaction actually looks pretty cool to me.
The fact I want to make Mutilators a thing and their the fastest in his subfaction is probably a big part of it lol.
Though I'm interested to try T4 Cultist hordes.The already great Melee/Plasma Contemptor is even better with Bile too.
Just fun to be throwing things into BS again before all enthusiasm gets wiped out again.
Rihgu wrote: Well, yea that's what I'm doing... I'm giving a mobile firebase re-rolls but due to terrain I can't move out of deployment zone into good positions easily. And I can't get to objectives outside of my deployment zone.
edit: and because of obscuring terrain, I can't bring my firepower to bear on enough of the enemy army to matter much, and all of my units are squishy,
Can I ask why terrain is preventing you from moving out of deployment? Because If you are using Abaddon and mostly infantry units around him, then they are not stopped by terrain like ruins, they just go straight through. So unless your board has a lot of obstacles terrain ? If you are running Abaddon alongside daemon engines then yeah, it would be a problem, because he is significantly slower than Darmon Engines plus everything would be somewhat hindered by terrain. If you are doing that, you probably have to set him and his engines up in a clear lane to walk through from the very start and just take any shooting that comes his way.
One issue I face with Pairing up Abby with Havocs though. Abby tends to want to charge straight forward, while Havocs often want to position sideways to gain a better firing arc. (If its range, then lascannon Havocs are already in range, so moving forward doesn't benefit them at all). So, it is a bit of a conundrum.
More than one faction seems to be considering bring a lot of vehicles. And transports got a boost this edition too. So, I wonder if a list with few or zero vehicles would be kind of a counter meta list.
In the first game I played, the gap from deployment zone to center objective wasn't big enough to fit my deathball while still moving forward. I was able to get 10 terminators to advance onto the point just barely within abaddon's reroll range but they got shot off the board by rubrics and a double soulburner contemptor that hid behind obscuring terrain so couldn't be shot turn one. Same rubric unit used double shoot to take down my bikers on a side objective, too.
Last night's game I decided to do 2 units of chosen and 2 units of chaincannon havocs in land raiders, thinking protecting my high damage/low durability would be worth it, but I failed Illusory Supplication in the first battle round and the ork player was able to get angles. One land raider got bracketed (going from 10"->5" is absolutely brutal... should've read that before the game and I'd know this plan was bunk...) and because they were vehicles they couldn't move through the ruins.
Also I absolutely could not stick any damage on the ork units, not in any way that mattered. Especially irksome was the battlewagon that survived with 1 wound after Abaddon smashed it for 10 damage (also killed a deffkilla wartrike with split attacks) which then charged Abaddon with Snikrot to kill him. But that's probably because the only multi-damage weapons in the list were Abaddon and the Land raider lascannons.
Really not sure what sort of list to try next, maybe 30 terminators? Not sure if reaper autocannons are worth it over combi-bolters on them.
Not Online!!! wrote: Am i the only one taking issue with the sm turret autocannon beeing far superior than any we get?
Its a 6 shot autocannon. Aka 3 autocannons. Compared to Havocs with autocannons, its the same wounds and T, better save and BS, but much worse mobility. Havocs can lose models more easily, but the Turret is lascannon bait with no invul. So the comparison will come down to just how much less it costs. With points changes and all, I'm not exactly sure what Power Level 4 will mean. That could be up to like 100pts now right?
So it could be too efficient, or it could be about the same depending on the cost. I think Havocs are ahead on lascannons though. I'll take the full 48" over BS 2, even if the havocs cost more.
And it seems pointless for SM to use a 24" lascannon, even at 4 shots, when they can run Eradicators with 6 melta shots at the same range.
I meant more the fact that it is a single weapon that Beats even more specialiced Versions.
Granted as you said it's on the turret and i also am unsure if the rule of 1 pl about 20 pts still apply..
Still annoys me because soon am are everything +1 Design wise...
The extra BS concerns me more than the weapons profile. The extra armor gets balanced out by the difference in movement, and the havocs having another 2 shots could balance out the difference in price (depending on what it is), but that still leaves them with better BS by one. So there does seem to be inflation. Its too bad Havocs can't still take up to 10 models for more ablative bodies. That'd change a lot.
I kind of like our Nortilith crown as a fortification, not withstanding the SM one. Gives us chaos flavor. But need to build a list around it. It gives our psykers reroll. That is actually pretty big and makes their casting alot more reliable. Especially if you are going for stuff like cursed earth. I have seen so many failed casts of that spell its not even funny. Prescience is also a warp charge 7 power as well. So it can sometimes fail too.
And that 5++ aura is pretty good. We have a fair number of units which would love that. The main problem is that its static.
BillyN831 wrote: What are the top five units for Chaos Marines 9th edition? Thank you.
Honestly, nothing is a must take. It all depends on what kind of list you are building. We can build something interesting and thematic with Lord Discordant. But there are other lists that totally skips bringing him. Daemon Prince? Same thing. Most lists don't bring Lord of skulls. But there is a tournament list with three lord of skulls and it didn't get hit much with 9th ed changes.
Some love Obliterators. Others don't.
You can bring defilers in a list now, and they would be good now. But not quite S tier either.
Nothing in our range is a "must bring" honestly. lol
BillyN831 wrote: What are the top five units for Chaos Marines 9th edition? Thank you.
Honestly, nothing is a must take. It all depends on what kind of list you are building. We can build something interesting and thematic with Lord Discordant. But there are other lists that totally skips bringing him. Daemon Prince? Same thing. Most lists don't bring Lord of skulls. But there is a tournament list with three lord of skulls and it didn't get hit much with 9th ed changes.
Some love Obliterators. Others don't.
You can bring defilers in a list now, and they would be good now. But not quite S tier either.
Nothing in our range is a "must bring" honestly. lol
debatable, considering sorcerers and DP's are mainstay of many lists.
I dont see whats good about CSMDPs. They are 200 pts. now with wings, and they only have a 5+ inv. A codex daemon tzeentch DP is also 200, but he can get a 3+ inv. Stats wise they are identical.
p5freak wrote: I dont see whats good about CSMDPs. They are 200 pts. now with wings, and they only have a 5+ inv. A codex daemon tzeentch DP is also 200, but he can get a 3+ inv. Stats wise they are identical.
i fully expect the other one to go up further.
Not saying the DP has been priced out ( atleast the winged version, non winged ones might see play with self warptiming..)
I dunno. GW cleary want TS princes to be great, and they started off the same price, and stayed that way for ages, until SupCom Sons was just everywhere. Now they're locked behind a CP paywall, they might try the same approach again.
BillyN831 wrote: What are the top five units for Chaos Marines 9th edition? Thank you.
for me:
Obilts
Forgefiends (yep i said it)
Rhinos
All the characters depending on your army, sorcerer is a standout
Spawn (i know, wtf, but take 3x 5 spawn units to these obj missions on their 50mm bases spread out and see what happens. Perhaps more realistic, 3 units of 1 of them 69pts and very handy)
BillyN831 wrote: What are the top five units for Chaos Marines 9th edition? Thank you.
Obviously it depends on the legion and the list, but for Night Lords I'd say:
Combi-plasma terminators
Warp talons (though this is debatable considering how the asinine points change shakes out)
Contemptors
Rhinos (yes, boring, but transports seem to be key in 9th)
You can almost never go wrong with a jump sorcerer.
Cultists. Taken every nerf gw could throw at them and they're still around and in every [competitive] list. Except maybe mastodons of course..
Daemon engines. They're all pretty similar in a sense so pick some and bring multiples. And RIP forgeworld I enjoyed you but now codex is back. With few exceptions.
Discos. I tried writing them off but they're still great.
Master of possession- see above.
Honestly I think thats about it for CSM. Bring in Tsons, DG, daemons or if we're talking legion specific (IW oblits etc) and the list gets bigger.
I noticed that Zhufor the Impaler is still temporarily out of stock on FW. Is there a good chance that he will be coming back or do you think he will be axed by GW? I think that he does have points in the new Chapter Approved.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I noticed that Zhufor the Impaler is still temporarily out of stock on FW. Is there a good chance that he will be coming back or do you think he will be axed by GW? I think that he does have points in the new Chapter Approved.
Who knows but FW has been moving out of the 40k space for the last few years and Zhufor is now a very old model for a campaign that isn't in production anymore. My feeling he and the other FW40k characters are destined for legends.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I noticed that Zhufor the Impaler is still temporarily out of stock on FW. Is there a good chance that he will be coming back or do you think he will be axed by GW? I think that he does have points in the new Chapter Approved.
Who knows but FW has been moving out of the 40k space for the last few years and Zhufor is now a very old model for a campaign that isn't in production anymore. My feeling he and the other FW40k characters are destined for legends.
Also Zhufor is invariably linked to the Vraksian renegades, so even doubly bad for his existence...
ArcaneHorror wrote: I noticed that Zhufor the Impaler is still temporarily out of stock on FW. Is there a good chance that he will be coming back or do you think he will be axed by GW? I think that he does have points in the new Chapter Approved.
Who knows but FW has been moving out of the 40k space for the last few years and Zhufor is now a very old model for a campaign that isn't in production anymore. My feeling he and the other FW40k characters are destined for legends.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I noticed that Zhufor the Impaler is still temporarily out of stock on FW. Is there a good chance that he will be coming back or do you think he will be axed by GW? I think that he does have points in the new Chapter Approved.
Who knows but FW has been moving out of the 40k space for the last few years and Zhufor is now a very old model for a campaign that isn't in production anymore. My feeling he and the other FW40k characters are destined for legends.
Also Zhufor is invariably linked to the Vraksian renegades, so even doubly bad for his existence...
These are both excellent points. I do love the character and the model (and rules), but I might end up using a regular terminator Chaos lord with the helmet on, possibly putting teeth on it to mimic Zhufor's monster mouth.
Also on the topic of terminators, I've read that a squad of double lightning claws is best for World Eaters/Khorne melee terminators. Is this true, or is there a better loadout? What do you all use for your terminators' weapons, regardless of legion/warband? I just bought a box yesterday.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Also on the topic of terminators, I've read that a squad of double lightning claws is best for World Eaters/Khorne melee terminators. Is this true, or is there a better loadout? What do you all use for your terminators' weapons, regardless of legion/warband? I just bought a box yesterday.
Night Lords: combi-plasma + chainaxes, "Prey On The Weak", overcharge, hitting anything LD8 or less on 2s, watch Loyalist Scum burn. Add an Icon of Vengeance and it works on anything LD 9 or less, good against Gulliman's Big Blue Boy Scouts.
The NL combo is solid although now they still want a lord unfortunately.
My terminator unit size varies from 5-10 all cbplas and then mostly chainaxes except for 2 chainfists one on the champ. Basically never deviate from this setup. Around 10 models I'll add a 3rd chainfist.
I am starting to think that if we want to stick to CSM but not deathguard, then we should go for killy. I was trying to many ways to make my CSM more resilient, and then I looked at the deathguard and they can do it so much more easily that if thats your concern, then just go deathguard.
But in going killy, the issue is then we become glass cannons... Kind of like the berserker squad issue. A berserker squad that gets it charge in will delete whatever it charges (mostly). But in turn, it doesnt take much to wipe that squad out. lol
So, we can have havocs with cacophony, thats double the killing power, but again, havocs are glass cannons.
The only way we can sort of mitigate that to a certain extend is to go daemon engine army. But, in actual fact, deathguard does that even better than CSM. So... sigh... I don't know. Maybe it would be fun to just go world eaters, give up trying to be resilient and just go for killy.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Also on the topic of terminators, I've read that a squad of double lightning claws is best for World Eaters/Khorne melee terminators. Is this true, or is there a better loadout? What do you all use for your terminators' weapons, regardless of legion/warband? I just bought a box yesterday.
Night Lords: combi-plasma + chainaxes, "Prey On The Weak", overcharge, hitting anything LD8 or less on 2s, watch Loyalist Scum burn. Add an Icon of Vengeance and it works on anything LD 9 or less, good against Gulliman's Big Blue Boy Scouts.
I might try this, mixing in the vengeance icon sometimes for the wrath icon for better charges and the Khorne mark for the fight again stratagem.
dominuschao wrote:The NL combo is solid although now they still want a lord unfortunately.
My terminator unit size varies from 5-10 all cbplas and then mostly chainaxes except for 2 chainfists one on the champ. Basically never deviate from this setup. Around 10 models I'll add a 3rd chainfist.
I was thinking of going with fists as well, and with the new points, chainfists are now as good if not better than power fists. I'm always worried about heavily investing in fists and hammers due to the minus one to hit and the subsequent inability to use DTTFE.
Eldenfirefly wrote:I am starting to think that if we want to stick to CSM but not deathguard, then we should go for killy. I was trying to many ways to make my CSM more resilient, and then I looked at the deathguard and they can do it so much more easily that if thats your concern, then just go deathguard.
But in going killy, the issue is then we become glass cannons... Kind of like the berserker squad issue. A berserker squad that gets it charge in will delete whatever it charges (mostly). But in turn, it doesnt take much to wipe that squad out. lol
So, we can have havocs with cacophony, thats double the killing power, but again, havocs are glass cannons.
The only way we can sort of mitigate that to a certain extend is to go daemon engine army. But, in actual fact, deathguard does that even better than CSM. So... sigh... I don't know. Maybe it would be fun to just go world eaters, give up trying to be resilient and just go for killy.
Plague Marines in general can be good for holding objectives, though ones outside DG don't get all of the associated stratagems, relics, and support units. Still, having a few units backed up by sorcerers and a prince casting warptime to move them up and miasma of pestilence to protect them can be quite good. PM backed by the disco lord-buffed daemon engines and possibly contemptor dreadnoughts is a good way to both hold objectives and go on the full offensive.
In terms of World Eaters, there was a recently a match where a melee-heavy WE army beat an Admech decisively, holding most of the objectives and cutting the enemy to pieces, so WE are definitely valid in the new meta:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCPMlvlFtw0
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am starting to think that if we want to stick to CSM but not deathguard, then we should go for killy. I was trying to many ways to make my CSM more resilient, and then I looked at the deathguard and they can do it so much more easily that if thats your concern, then just go deathguard.
But in going killy, the issue is then we become glass cannons... Kind of like the berserker squad issue. A berserker squad that gets it charge in will delete whatever it charges (mostly). But in turn, it doesnt take much to wipe that squad out. lol
So, we can have havocs with cacophony, thats double the killing power, but again, havocs are glass cannons.
The only way we can sort of mitigate that to a certain extend is to go daemon engine army. But, in actual fact, deathguard does that even better than CSM. So... sigh... I don't know. Maybe it would be fun to just go world eaters, give up trying to be resilient and just go for killy.
I think we've always been a glass cannon army, i hoped that the -1 dark apostle chant might help that, then the new cover rules but nothing really seems to keep CSM alive. I think you're right going for killy rather than resilient, especially for our actual marine based units. I don't think Worldeaters are the best option to maximise damage output tho. I'd argue there are unfortunately better legions to run berserkers in. The bile faction is interesting for them, S7 chainaxes and 7" move and gives you access to the advance and charge with +1 strat. Thats a threat range of 9+3D6 inches.
You are also tied to khorne with worldeaters so no endless cacophany. I try to plan my lists to leverage as much as i can out of that strat for at least the first three turns. My go to phasing is a big unit of bikes turn one to delete screens, obliterators turn two and terminators turn three means you are dropping the strat on a fresh and powerful unit every turn means you can almost guarentee deleting 6 of your opponents key units.
Ha I was gonna ask about WE contemptors. I'm thinking of three with twin lascannons and I'm debating what chars to run with them? Maybe just a naked lord? Sorcerer is out because fluff
Latro_ wrote: Ha I was gonna ask about WE contemptors. I'm thinking of three with twin lascannons and I'm debating what chars to run with them? Maybe just a naked lord? Sorcerer is out because fluff
A Dark Apostle is a good substitute for a sorcerer.
I always run ectoplasma blasters on my double chainclaw Contemptor. He wrecks face. He's racked up a few knight kills over the years. I miss being able to reliably get charges with him after dropping him in a dreadclaw though. They need some equivalent of Fleet back.
Latro_ wrote: Ha I was gonna ask about WE contemptors. I'm thinking of three with twin lascannons and I'm debating what chars to run with them? Maybe just a naked lord? Sorcerer is out because fluff
A Dark Apostle is a good substitute for a sorcerer.
It's a bit more restricted, as he can only do 1 thing instead of the normal 2 but he is cheaper and more reliable.
Granted he can grant no movement buffs.
Latro_ wrote: What can a DA do for 3 lascannon contemptors?
They're not looking to be in CC and his 5+ inv aura is pointless because they already have one.
+1 to hit.
-1 to hit against them, a tool that might be worth it overall for WE armies, because glass cannon get's 1/6 more durability through it.
It's also a lot more flexible due to you beeing able to choose.
The invul prayer is a nice tool when you want to make cultists work, but that is more AL, (consider then a cult leader warlord trait and watch cultists become really really annoying) or when you intend to run a assault gun list.
Yeah, I'd go with Benediction of Darkness for the -1 to be hit. It helps a lot with survivability. Unfortunately you can only do it to one unit at a time. The +1 to hit is only useful on a Contemptor if it's been bracketed.
Yea i guess, thats only on one of them though for both prayers and i'm gonna run 3.
They are bs2 will have a lord nearby so +1 to hit very situational (e.g. when a -1 to hit is in effect, which i guess is more likley with new cover rules but not so much for their targets which prob wont get hat buff for cover - knights etc)
Whack the minus one to hit on one of them, opponent will just target one of the others
Latro_ wrote: Yea i guess, thats only on one of them though for both prayers and i'm gonna run 3.
They are bs2 will have a lord nearby so +1 to hit very situational (e.g. when a -1 to hit is in effect, which i guess is more likley with new cover rules but not so much for their targets which prob wont get hat buff for cover - knights etc)
Whack the minus one to hit on one of them, opponent will just target one of the others
edit: oh year forgot their BS goes down, hmmm
maybee you'd be interested in an assault gun list? 3 vindicators are a lot of t 8 rounds and granting them a 5++ actually is quite annoying.
Sigh, just came back from a game where I essentially got tabled on turn 3 by my terrible dice rolling. It was still fun though. Its just that facing a terribly shooty army (admech+guard) while having bad dice rolls is just not going to turn out well.
Abaddon became failbaddon, when he failed a turn two 4 inch charge into a huge squad of Bullgrynn and I rerolled that charge, and he still failed... orzzz. He did redeem himself in turn turn 3 by charging that squad again, and this time making the charge, and since my sorceror had used deathhex to remove the 3++ invul from the bullgrynn, Abaddon did the business and single handedly wiped out 7 Bullgrynns all by himself on that charge.
After thinking back though, I really need to ask this question. The Canticle Shroudspalm says:
"Affected units gain the bonus to their saving throw as if they were in cover. Units already in cover are unaffected"
He rolled well, and had that and the armywide +1 strength to heavy weapons for the crucial turn 1 and 2. But now that I think about it, in 9th edition, vehicles cannot gain the benefit of a cover save. So, does this mean that while this canticle grants army wide cover save, but it only grants it to the infantry because the vehicles are not allowed to benefit from a cover save in 9th edition?
This is significant, because my black legion army shot 12 lascannons shots and 3 plama gun shots with abaddon giving rerolls all hits to 8 of the shots, which also wound on 2s cos of veterans, but his disintigrators tanked it all like a champ and I couldn't even kill 1 disintigrator. I even rerolled one of the damage dice to a 4 I think. But he was getting a 5+ save even from being hit by plasma and lascannnon because that canticles made his Disintigrator a 2+ save? And he made some of his 5+ saves with good dice rolling.
Still, my question remains. Does that shroudspalm canticle gives a cover save+1 to vehicles in 9th edition when vehicles aren't allowed to get a cover save? This is significant when I think about it now, because quite a few of those saves he rolled were 5s ...
I am still miffed that so many lascannon shots and 3 plasma shots failed to kill 1 T7 tank with no invul save...
Btw, quick battle report. We played scorched earth. I went first and failed to kill a single thing except 1 infantry squad. (The lucky disintigrator). Then his ad mech portion of the army literally wiped out almost my entire right flank. (2 hellbrutes and 1 CSM squad and 1 bike squad all obliterated, despite a Dark Apostle giving the hellbrutes a 5++).
I also lost another bike squad and a forgefiend on my left flank, and my lascannon squad was wittled down to 1 lascannon. So, he had removed almost all of my heavy anti tank shooting within 1 round...
His turn 2, he killed the lascannon havoc, my reaper chain cannon squad, my last hellbrute, the dark apostle, 4 CSM squad, and my 5 man Termi squad that deepstruck in and failed their charge. And he then failed to kill my last remaining 30 cultists, which had a 5++ from Nortilith crown and 5+ FNP from delightful agonies. (and Abby fluffed the charge).
By turn 3, we called it. Even with tide of traitors bringing back the 30 cultists to full strength. It was too little too late. I had 30 out of position cultists that failed the charge. Abby exposed on the board and my terminator sorceror also exposed on the board. And the Nortilith crown. I had killed a ton of his chaff infantry, but hardly touched any of his vehicles because he took out all my heavy shooting on turn 1, and without even rolling, we knew he would shoot me off the board by turn 3 at that point...
Oh, and his 3 disintigrators and 1 manticore all had weapons that could ignore line of sight... so, hiding wouldn't have saved me...
If my dice rolling was better, it probably could have been a better game, and I did have fun (Abby wiped out 7 bullgryns in one beastly round of combat, and I took out like 40 infantry at least? lol.) But still... uphill task against that kind of shooting... (and I even went first lol). It was fun to blow through over 12 CP within 3 turns too. And I didn't spend them all on command rerolls too. I was using strategems like (Tip of the spear, veterans, Endless Cacophony, fire frenzy on lascannon hellbrute, Let the galaxy burn, tide of traitors, that strategem to change psychic power to my death hex, Daemon Forge on my Forgefiend...)
It felt awesome. Sad thing was... even with all that, and all the rerolls by Abaddon, my dice just failed me... sigh. failed charges from Abaddon even with a CP reroll, low damage on my lascannons even with a reroll. death hex failed to go off the first time even on a reroll of 1 provided by the warlord trait, and it went off finally the round after that from a reroll provided by the Nortilith crown. It was just ridiculous lol. My dice rolls were so bad.... And his dice rolling was so hot too. I mean, 7 wounds from my forgefiend from daemonforge, and he saves ... all of them! Because it was 3+ save because of his canticles and for his dice, 3+ saves are super easy to make.
Shroudsalm still gives cover to mech IMO. Just because terrain doesn't now is not the same thing as gaining cover from other sources. Ad mech is just nasty now I know.
On csm in general I feel like we really do need to splash into another legion or be near mono build. csm gives access to the most options including some that are lacking in the cult legions. But those legions bring power to troops category which has always been vital, in my experience anyway.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Holy cow! All marines, including CSM and our cult marines, are getting our wounds upped to 2W !!! And Terminators get upped to 3W !!!
feth yes! This makes my night lords quite happy.
Raptors, havocs, basic csms and berzerkers are core in most of my builds.
Hopefully this means bikers also get +1W, then i'd be pretty excstatic
Eldenfirefly wrote: Holy cow! All marines, including CSM and our cult marines, are getting our wounds upped to 2W !!! And Terminators get upped to 3W !!!
feth yes! This makes my night lords quite happy.
Raptors, havocs, basic csms and berzerkers are core in most of my builds.
Hopefully this means bikers also get +1W, then i'd be pretty excstatic
Don't forget Warp Talons. 2W, T4, 3+, 5++, sounds pretty damned good. Mini terminators with jump packs. With "Prey On The Weak" they could already shred a unit of intercessors, now they can survive the reprisal. No Eighth Legion army should be without them.
We only will recive that when we are in line for a dex tho, and if i were a betting man, i'd say out stratagems won't survive in this state when we are in line to get one...
Dont forget that points will increase as well. A tactical marine with W2 will be 18 pts. A chaos marine will probably be the same. When wounds go up, points will go up too.
p5freak wrote: Dont forget that points will increase as well. A tactical marine with W2 will be 18 pts. A chaos marine will probably be the same. When wounds go up, points will go up too.
Probably 16-17 if we get no doctrines . But still.
At least this will make a very clear distinction between csm and cultists. Do you want elite 2W infantry or chafe? Even if Chosen don't become a troops choice, our troops options are more clearly defined.
Feth Plague Marines are amazing this edition. 2W T5 3+ DR 5+? It may be worth taking them even without taking a Death Guard detachment. Now just need Mark of Nurgle to add +1 toughness again and Nurgle bikes with Plague Marines will be a rock solid core of stuff that takes a lot of shots.
Gadzilla666 wrote: At least this will make a very clear distinction between csm and cultists. Do you want elite 2W infantry or chafe? Even if Chosen don't become a troops choice, our troops options are more clearly defined.
What elites Are you talking about?
Those veterans that have worse rules then their counterpart and shared the price with an Aspirant of them?
Also cultists especially but any s3 gun owner in the game got alot worse.
I am rather concerned and also aggrivated because this will Turn into a waiting game for a lot of factions.and that certainly ain't Fun or good for the game...
I cant wait to see what happens to my Noise marines. I really miss playing them, especially with all the money I spent on conversions(even got kakaphoni for squad leaders)
blackmage wrote: consider a thing anyway...you will see more 2D weapons around, just one the heavy bolter now will have damage2...so...
True, but in the case of the heavy bolter I hear it's going from 3 shots down to 1 shot. This may be the case for all weapons that are getting a damage increase
Gadzilla666 wrote: At least this will make a very clear distinction between csm and cultists. Do you want elite 2W infantry or chafe? Even if Chosen don't become a troops choice, our troops options are more clearly defined.
What elites Are you talking about?
Those veterans that have worse rules then their counterpart and shared the price with an Aspirant of them?
Also cultists especially but any s3 gun owner in the game got alot worse.
I am rather concerned and also aggrivated because this will Turn into a waiting game for a lot of factions.and that certainly ain't Fun or good for the game...
That's the point, maybe now we'll actually have csm that can compete with loyalists.
Agreed on your concerns about the release schedule.
blackmage wrote: consider a thing anyway...you will see more 2D weapons around, just one the heavy bolter now will have damage2...so...
True, but in the case of the heavy bolter I hear it's going from 3 shots down to 1 shot. This may be the case for all weapons that are getting a damage increase
RIP havocs not having access to multimeltas. 8 multi meltas poping out of a Terrax dropping 24 melta shots will annihilate just about anything.
These changes are gonna mean that multi damage weapons in general are gonna be much more efficient. Might see more horde lists as people start doubleing down on stuff to remove Heavy infantry
blackmage wrote: consider a thing anyway...you will see more 2D weapons around, just one the heavy bolter now will have damage2...so...
True, but in the case of the heavy bolter I hear it's going from 3 shots down to 1 shot. This may be the case for all weapons that are getting a damage increase
doubt heavy bolter will be heavy1 but we will see
Unless it stays heavy 3, Autocannons are better for the price
Leth wrote: I cant wait to see what happens to my Noise marines. I really miss playing them, especially with all the money I spent on conversions(even got kakaphoni for squad leaders)
Pray to Slaanesh that Emperor's Children get a book before CSM get a book.
I know it won't happen, but it's be nice to get the full range of Emperor's Children unique units out so that the CSM Codex entry can have the proper Noise Marine squad, much like it has the proper Plague Marine squad in there now.
This goes for World Eaters as well.
Dr.Duck wrote: 8 multi meltas poping out of a Terrax dropping 24 melta shots will annihilate just about anything.
Dr.Duck wrote: 8 multi meltas poping out of a Terrax dropping 24 melta shots will annihilate just about anything.
What squad can get 8 MMs?
Was saying if havocs could get MM. You could put 2 squads in a terrax. pop out and cacophany 1 of them for 24 shots total. But we cant have nice things...... Chaos multimelta would look sick tho with like a demon mouth as a decorative barrel.
H.B.M.C. wrote: That's a lotta eggs in one basket. High risk of getting scrambled.
Meh its about as massive as you can make an alpha. Theres almost nothing you cant kill with that. Just make sure you position so they cant retaliate as effectively.
We suddenly have this list of units that are very, very good, maybe better than their Imperial counterparts.
- Terminators (esp Blightlord)
- Plague Marines (flails and axes)
- Havocs (T5 2W 4 ACs and move and shoot)
- Chosen (5 man squads with 4 special weapons)
- CSM (10 man, 2 chaincannons)
- Possessed (20 man squad becomes wrecking ball)
- Berzerkers (5 man squads can now get into combat)
The main thing they were missing was staying power. It just doubled, and I can think of many combinations of auras / spells / stratagems that make small MSU squads nasty.
With 2 wound CSM, how would this affect your list design?
We suddenly have this list of units that are very, very good, maybe better than their Imperial counterparts.
- Terminators (esp Blightlord)
- Plague Marines (flails and axes)
- Havocs (T5 2W 4 ACs and move and shoot)
- Chosen (5 man squads with 4 special weapons)
- CSM (10 man, 2 chaincannons)
- Possessed (20 man squad becomes wrecking ball)
- Berzerkers (5 man squads can now get into combat)
The main thing they were missing was staying power. It just doubled, and I can think of many combinations of auras / spells / stratagems that make small MSU squads nasty.
With 2 wound CSM, how would this affect your list design?
Raptors are looking very good now. -1 ap on their chainswords, ability to take 3 meltas, and can be given a strength bonus depending on what legion you are? Theyre real nasty now because they can easily walk right up to a tank, melt it and then charge and eat whatevers in the transport.
Terminators will now be very hard to shift, and regular CSM as well will be the mainstay of armies again, because a 5 man squad can have 2 specials or a heavy and a special making them great at sitting back and holding objectives. We will be very small armies though, at a 20% increase to our basic troop cost (excluding cultists) there wont be alot of room for extra stuff if you go infantry heavy.
We suddenly have this list of units that are very, very good, maybe better than their Imperial counterparts.
- Terminators (esp Blightlord)
- Plague Marines (flails and axes)
- Havocs (T5 2W 4 ACs and move and shoot)
- Chosen (5 man squads with 4 special weapons)
- CSM (10 man, 2 chaincannons)
- Possessed (20 man squad becomes wrecking ball)
- Berzerkers (5 man squads can now get into combat)
The main thing they were missing was staying power. It just doubled, and I can think of many combinations of auras / spells / stratagems that make small MSU squads nasty.
With 2 wound CSM, how would this affect your list design?
I can see terminators making a comeback in a lot of lists. Possessed bomb took a hit in 9th but is still doable, will have to see when the codex drops if they'll still be worth it compared to the buffed berzerkers. Though I still think bikes are preferable to raptors.
Not Online!!! wrote: We only will recive that when we are in line for a dex tho, and if i were a betting man, i'd say out stratagems won't survive in this state when we are in line to get one...
Some are more equal it seems....
They said this in the article:
Now, we know that LOTS of armies use these weapons, whether supplied by the Tech-Adepts of Mars or perhaps even “acquired” through less Imperium-friendly means to turn on their former masters. In any case, when Codex: Space Marines arrives in October, every other unit that utilises the same wargear – regardless of Faction – will get their weapon profiles upgraded accordingly.
So no, you'll be getting quite a bit at the same time the loyal marines get it.
I am excited to use proper CSM again. Have to see the costs though. No point if they cost us up to the sky. CSM don't have the layers and layers of rules that Marines have. So, if they cost us the same as Marines, I think we will remain at a disadvantage to regular marine armies. We will have an edge against xenos armies though. Except if this change goes through, will any xenos army still be around ? (Other than maybe necrons?). The rest will just shelf their armies until they get their codex.
Primaris will still be better than regular marines. But we do have our cult troops. Berserkers just got their durability doubled. And Plague Marines are going to be just nasty now. Terminators may actually be good now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am not sure if possessed will become 3W. We know for sure Termis become 3W, not not necessarily possessed. I hope Melta guns will also get a buff (they probably will) because CSM mostly can only use melta guns rather than multi meltas. This feels like a sea change though. All weapons, stats of tons of models (both CSM and space marine factions) all getting adjusted. The change will substantially buff all space marine factions. If they don't adjust xenos as well, nobody will want to play xenos.
Melta is getting buffed, but don't forget, overcharged plasma are now really good against 2W models compared to regular bolter shots. Regular bolters are now substantially worse except against hordes. And hordes are now truly 1W models, like cultists or guardsmen.
Lethality of shooting is still present in 9th ed. Even if they double the wounds on a CSM squad, if the opponent dedicates shooting into it, it will still die. Its not going to suddenly be able to tank a whole round of shooting. Main difference is that now instead of losing three to four squads per turn, maybe we just lose one to two. While is definitely a big improvement. Of course, if all the points are adjusted up substantially, its the same really. Because if a fully kitted out 10 man squad costs over 200 points, then losing two such squads means losing a fair chunk of your army. Think it will still be a buff overall though. Its not like they will double the point cost of a CSM model just for our +1W.
The worst hit are the 1W weapons with no AP. So boltguns and lasguns. Actually, boltguns will feel like lasguns now. Someone do the math, but how many boltgun shots are you going to need to take down a squad of 5 marines? We don't have any AP on our boltguns and we don't have doctrines to make them -1 or -2 AP. Seems like it will take forever now to kill a 2W infantry squad with zero AP bolter fire.
Bolters were already pretty weak for us as noted. Specials with Chainswords for me. Especially if somehow that CS buff gets through the F Chaos update screener.
no ap weapons are garbage going forward. Only thing they are good for is vs horde armies/squads, and maybe adding 1 or 2 wounds to a normal/elite infantry squad.
What this will mean is an even more 2W-rich environment. We won’t see that much benefit of our extra wounds in gunfights, because any serious list will be built for that.
Our own multi damage weapons become significantly better. Heavy Bolter as a dedicated anti-MEQ weapon is cool.
Our big stuff will also take more chip damage. And, if drop pods don’t get revised rules and we don’t get an auspex equivalent, pretty much anything big dies T1 to sixteen Melta shots.
The disruption to our game plan goes way beyond ‘yay, our Heretacs and zerks last a bit longer’.
What this will mean is an even more 2W-rich environment. We won’t see that much benefit of our extra wounds in gunfights, because any serious list will be built for that.
Our own multi damage weapons become significantly better. Heavy Bolter as a dedicated anti-MEQ weapon is cool.
Our big stuff will also take more chip damage. And, if drop pods don’t get revised rules and we don’t get an auspex equivalent, pretty much anything big dies T1 to sixteen Melta shots.
The disruption to our game plan goes way beyond ‘yay, our Heretacs and zerks last a bit longer’.
Yeah... add to that a lot of games will only go 5 turns.
That's not a lot of opportunity for an opponent to blast 2W models off the table. Either your list is geared for it or it's not.
Chaos may have one of the best combos in the game with deep striking 2x 5-man Melta Chosen in an Assault Drill, 3x Obilterators and a squad of Blightlord Terminators. The shock value of this assortment popping up in your back lines would be devastating on most armies, it's a powerful front that can't be easily pierced.
Starting to think the best competitive lists will be CSM + Death Guard.
Chain swords getting -1 AP on top of getting an extra wound is pretty sweet for regular marines.
A horde of 20 is now 40 wounds and can be 4 attacks per on the charge with full rerolls (assuming stratagems at least)
With 40 wounds you might even last through a turn to capture an objective and they can benefit from just about any buff you want.
Been looking at strategic reserves abit. Actually, it just occured to me that our obsec troops are pretty decent for coming in from strategic reserves.
Consider a 5 man squad of emperor's children CSM. Sergeant has combi melta, and the squad has another melta gun.
Turn 2 or 3, you can come in from the flank, use cacophony to shoot 4 melta shots into a vehicle or a monster, and then charge while using that strategem to give you a super high chance of making it into combat. If its a vehicle in the backfield, you can either severely injure it, kills it, or at least charge in and tag it. And your obsec will mean you take that objective away from your opponent unless he also has obsec on his back objective.
If we use World eaters, berserkers become obsec. Same thing just less certainty. Give them Icon of wrath, put them in strategic reserves along with a warlord with that warlord trait that adds +1 to charge. Now you have a
8 inch rerollable charge from zerkers when you appear from strategic reserves. I am not sure if there is any better way for world eaters to get a +1 or +2 on the charge. If there is, please share.
Khorne bloodletter bomb still works too. Thats a 3d6 pick the best two dice charge on 8 inches.
So, we can combine world eaters, Khorne daemons, and Emperor's children to get multiple charges with a fairly good chance of getting in, all from reserves. So, we don't even need to move up, just keep having units coming out of reserves and charging on turn 2 and turn 3.
Maybe we can have the rest of the army be shooty from the Emperor's children faction. While we rely on the charging elements to take the mid and back field objectives. What do you think ?
So, something like Emperor's children patrol with 2 chain cannon havocs squads and noise marines to clear the chaff. Then turn 2 and 3, zerkers, Bloodletters, and a Emperor's children termi squad or melta squad will drop in and charge into combat onto the objectives. An emperor's children flying DP with elixor and warptime and a World eaters flying DP with talisman of blood (give advance and charge) can hide turn 1, and then both charge in turn 2 for added support.
if anyone notice that I didn't talk about vehicles, its because the idea is to use melee to tag the vehicles and then punch them to bits.
Leth wrote: I cant wait to see what happens to my Noise marines. I really miss playing them, especially with all the money I spent on conversions(even got kakaphoni for squad leaders)
Umm... why wait?
Noise Marines are currently one of the best troops options in the entire game. Off hand I can only think of one other troops choice that is anywhere near as powerful, and thats not even including all the nuts buffs you can give the noisy bois.
Them going to 2W just makes them broken, not good. They're already great.
What makes noise marines playable? To me the only thing they have going for them is the 4CP Uber combo of prescience, VotLW, S5 D2 double shooting. Which is, admittedly, really really scary.
After fiddling around with different lists, the one I arrived at based on my post above has no daemons in it. Its just a WE battalion and Emperor's children patrol.
So, zerker squads in reserve with icon of wrath plus a jump pack warlord that has the Violent Urgency warlord trait and a relic Demon weapon. So now my zerkers get a 8 inc charge rerollable when they come in. Plus There is a WE flying DP with tasliman of blood. It will hide turn 1, and advance plus charge turn 2 to join the fun.
Emperor's children has a 10 man noise marine squad with full sonic blastors and double blast masters. Plus 2 havoc squads with 4 reaper chain cannons, led by a flying DP with warptime. The DP will provide rerolls to the Havocs with cacophony on turn 1, and turn 2, when my stuff comes in from reserve, it will use warptime to zoom up the board and join the fun.
There are also two Emperor's Children terminator sqads with all combi bolters and power fists.
So, I will drop the Termi squads on turn 2 and 3, so that I can use the Emp Children strategem both turns as it turns one of their charge die into a 6. And then zerkers have the option to come in turn 2, or 3, or both.
The rest of the shooting is all to clear chaff and space so that my stuff got more options when they do come in from reserve. I will punch vehicles to bits with my melee rather than shooting them. So based on this, I can put on lots of pressure on both turn 2 and 3 on both midboard and even back objectives. What do you all think? Am I missing something important?
I would always use combibolter/chainaxe. Well worth the 4 pts. CSM are not worth spending lots of points for weapons. Maybe one heavy weapon as anti vehicle, like a LC.
Had a game today. This time I played as csm that my friend brought while I landed him some of my orks. I got no buggies tho, so, some were his, some were proxies.
Twas a 1k pt game and orks ran a buggy list containing: trike, 3 scraps, 2 sjd, 3 mek gunz, trukkboyz
Csm ran Abaddon, sorc, 2 defilers, 1 helbrute, 2*5 Marines, 10 cultists.
There was some severe lack of cover due to us playing at the dacha (country house) and not at the city gaming club. I think that impacted the game quite a lot cause orks removed half the cam army turn 1.
Unfortunately for orks, csm proved to be exceptionally good in mellee vs buggies and 500 pt of csm wrecked 500pt of orks in return.
We played just 2 turns but it was a single mek gun and 1 sjd remaining vs 8 cultists, 2 Marines and a 10-wound defiler. Decided to call it even and proceed drinking tea and eating tasties.
Some highlights:
-As expected, defilers are exceptionally good if they get to fight. Even more so, with tighter battlefields, enemies moving around and no heavy weapon penalty for moving. 1 defiler got killed but the second one pulled it's weight 3 times over - and we have played just 2 turns. It's shooting with demonforge is quite decent - especially vs light vehicles. I got 5 shots for the battle cannon (spent cp). It's mellee is frightening with daemonforge.
-Abaddon is also great in mellee, that's expected. But he got shot down without much trouble the moment he was left alone in the open. Halving wounds is not as amazing vs d3 weapons as you might want it to be.
-Marines scored some points but didn:'t pull their weight in the killing department. Just shot down some boyz. I'm thinking it's not an ideal edition for anti-infantry. Plazma might be better than their new 8-shot cannon. At least for min squads. If you got no plan for them other than "they'll probably be fine for generating cp and scoring", it's probably s good idea to keep them stock. Well, maybe a combi-bolter or a single plasma.
- Helbrute got one-shot. 8 wounds for like 130 pts I spent for taking twin laz were easily wasted.
- I'm not sure what to take for larger games other than 1 extra defiler and maybe some min termies with chain axes.
p5freak wrote: I would always use combibolter/chainaxe. Well worth the 4 pts. CSM are not worth spending lots of points for weapons. Maybe one heavy weapon as anti vehicle, like a LC.
CB Chainaxe is a good loadout.
For small squads funnily enough most heavy weapons are nice.
An ac, can bring the hurt against heavy infantry reliably without babysiting.
Lascannons behind 4 ablative wounds are also not bad.
The improved Missile launcher might actually be worth it in 9th?
I'v been thinking about the 2W thing. It seems great but as others have said:
- it'll come at a pts cost - i'm planning for 150-200pt increase in all lists - which means some stuff is going while others get better
- people will now build dmg 2+ into their lists even more than they already are
- its not just marines getting this wound and weapon buff. It seems to me with some of the necron leaks that 'ALL' armies are getting turned upto 11. So building dmg 2 is probably gonna be easier to boot.
- So all armies will be spending the pts on chunkier weapons.
- Means less on the table because of the increased points and more importantly will be overkill vs light infantry as they'll be set to have less shots (more pts) and dealing with 2w (overkill vs 1w)
- Therefore it'll probably actually be a new mini golden age for cultists etc as they slip under the radar. Until it shifts again because everyone realized what happend.
On a side note FNP type stuff is now gold dust. Slannesh sorcerer with delightful agonies = auto include
p5freak wrote: I would always use combibolter/chainaxe. Well worth the 4 pts. CSM are not worth spending lots of points for weapons. Maybe one heavy weapon as anti vehicle, like a LC.
CB Chainaxe is a good loadout.
For small squads funnily enough most heavy weapons are nice.
An ac, can bring the hurt against heavy infantry reliably without babysiting.
Lascannons behind 4 ablative wounds are also not bad.
The improved Missile launcher might actually be worth it in 9th?
What so good about an AC ? It only has two shots, and only AP-1. You would need to be lucky to kill one intercessor (in cover). One LC behind 4 ablative wounds isnt good, but its soon going to be 8 ablative wounds, which is better, but points for CSM will probably go up as well.
Because it is a gun that even unbabysitted can easily earn the investment back, allows in a pinch for to work against everything and is not paying out of the nose for beeing a generalist weapon.
l0k1 wrote: What's your opinions on load outs for basic CSM Aspiring Champions these days?
Think it all depends on what you want the squad to do.
CSM squads are pretty flexible. Can be equipped to be more melee focused to more ranged focused, or special weapon focused. Combi bolter and chain axe on Champ seems to be the most bang for buck. You get 2 more bolter shots and a str 5 ap-1 weapon for the Champ that has 1 more attack all for just 4 points.
But for some more points, there is a lot of flexibility. I think combi melta plus one melta on a 5 man squad is not bad for an objective secured squad that can come in from strategic reserve, pop off 2 melta shots at vehicle and then potentially charge into combat on an objective.
I'm not getting excited about 2 wound marines. It appears to all be part of GWs attempts to increase granularity. I expect most other factions elite troops will have similar adjustments or points balancing so we will end up in a similar place.
Unfortunately the 2w increase will come at a points cost and as long as MSU marines can only take one special/heavy and one combi it'll just exacerbate the issue.
Without the CP gain from taking troops, in 9th I just don't see a place for CSM. Despite the game being more orientated towards holding objectives, I don't think obsec is enough to overcome the lack of power and flexibility in marine squads. I've been running patrols and making up my infantry with chosen, Berserkers or Havocs and I haven't missed obsec. Our elite infantry has much more potential to clear opponents obsec and make it moot.
Especially with the reduced cost of specials and heavies for infantry, for just 14pts you can upgrade a MSU double plasma marine unit to 5 chosen, all with chainaxes, three with plasma which is a more effective unit in shooting and melee. With chosen you have the flexibility to take as many specials or ablative wounds as you feel comfortable with and I believe that outweighs obsec.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think a major reason why plague marines are such good troop choices is their versatility with three specials in a unit of five, plus upgradeable melee weapons etc.
It's frustrating even scions or sisters can have three specials while we are forced to carry three ineffective chumps in every troop unit...
I agree with you on everything except 2w. This change will help some of our worst units without making the army much more susceptible to things like plas. I feel it's a significant boost to heretics.
But otherwise ya agreed. In particular assault units trump obsec where shooters don't, and we have plenty. From my limited experience in 9th so far I feel the goal is not to load up on obsec but to maximize the value of the compulsory troops we take.. Whether from weaponry or simply from cheap bodies such as cultists.
And then there's the cult troops like PMs. If I was a DG player now thats a unit I would spam. Possibly the best troops unit in the game atm. Rubrics are up there too.
Agreed as well. I'm going to try a vanguard detachment using Chosen, terminators, and Warp Talons as my infantry, with rhinos to get the Chosen where they need to be with Contemptors for anti-armour. The flexibility of Chosen should outweigh obsec. Troops can't hold objectives when they're dead. I'll be adding my Hellforged Achilles once the change to multi-melta is official.
I feel that its about incorporating your troops into your overall strategy. If their main purpose is only to shoot a bit and stand on objectives, its not going to work because they are just too fragile.
Thats why I believe that the increase to 2W is a substantial buff for us CSM too. We really suffer from fragility right now. Any kind of marine, unless its PM or maybe rubrics die so fast.
75 points of bare bone CSM just don't do anything. Having 3 squads of bare bones CSM means you are literally wasting 225 points. A chosen squad costs more, but at least a fully kitted out combi melta or combi plasma chosen squad coming in from reserves will have a good chance of destroying stuff equal to its points or more.
The game is so lethal in shooting now a squad of 5 CSM has almost zero chance of surviving on an objective alone.
Haven't tried chosen in a looong time but I like the idea. Particularly the dual chosen in termite idea I've seen floating around. Pretty badass.
Troops are still compulsory afterthoughts to me. Earlier I was thinking they had more of a role but now I think not necessarily in heretics. Instead I find I just want a a few specific tools. A cheap camper action taker, a pseudo elite from a cult legion and then maybe a third unit to draw fire are my current ones. Right now I feel the third unit is still a larger cultist unit because it demands fire or out-obsecs them and if it isn't wiped they come back with tide. Alternately 3x10 cultists is still the default imo.
From there I'm gonna continue using spawn. Less susceptible to oolos blast weapons cheap and deny DS LZs. Honestly have yet to be disappointed in spawn even in 8th.
Just a thought I had. Since Overwatch is kinda gone and the marine is alot beffier. I wonder if 20 CSM with CQC weapons might be viable. Its alot to chew through and should the red corsair tide of traitors Strat still exist you can recycle it pretty easily. Warp time and either the nurgle or slaanesh Psychic power to make them more durable.
Primaris might have insane ranged weapons now but they still suck in combat.
20 CSM becomes 280 points. Thats a lot of points and it better do something. Actually for efficiency, a squad of 10 zerkers are cheaper and will probably do a better job are clearing out whatever objective you charge. The only thing they have going for them is the durability of more bodies, and coming back with that red corsairs strat. in exchange, they will take max hits from blast weapons.
But the trick will probably only work once anyway, if at all. Because opponent will know that if he wants to counter that strategy, he better Kill off the entire squad. Its like RP for necrons, and you know how much Necron players feel that RP is not useful currently.
Agreed. It's hard to evaluate in the abstract and 40 meq wounds is pretty substantial particularly with more where they came from or whatever it's called. I say try it and let us know.
I have a personal hangup with spending more on troops then I have to unfortunately haha. Maybe I'm off base but I like to take the extra pts and buy something more lethal. It's likely that both approaches could have success.
Oh, we are talking about when they become 2W ? yeah. then they will probably become even more expensive in terms of points. So the issue is that if you being a squad of 20 CSM that costs more than 300 points, it better do something rather than just be durable. Because at over 300 points, you can being stuff like a squad of obliterators, or 2 defilers charging upthe board, which will be much better at deleting stuff from the table.
Unlikely. A tac marine with W2 will be 18 pts. A CSM will probably be 16/17.
Csm will probably be 18 PPM, because gw will consider whatever they give us in our new codex to make them equal to loyalists, whether it does or not. Chosen will most likely be 20 PPM, same as intercessors, because of the extra attack.
There is a chance that since they don't technically do a kit for them when the new codex comes around normal CSM will just have chosen stats and similar options and chosen will be squatted.
Not Online!!! wrote: Because it is a gun that even unbabysitted can easily earn the investment back, allows in a pinch for to work against everything and is not paying out of the nose for beeing a generalist weapon.
But once the 2w marines hit, so will d2 heavy bolters...
Not Online!!! wrote: Because it is a gun that even unbabysitted can easily earn the investment back, allows in a pinch for to work against everything and is not paying out of the nose for beeing a generalist weapon.
But once the 2w marines hit, so will d2 heavy bolters...
Which s7 breaching s6 threshold and range and reachint t7 threshold for light vehicles.
We also don't know if auto cannons are staying the same. Gw is changing weapons profiles left right and center. I wouldn't assume anything until we start seeing some codexes.
Loyalists have twin auto cannons on their Contemptors. We could see updates in the new fw books. I think that may be why they've been holding them back. They have some of the new weapon profiles in them and they don't want to let the cat out of the bag until they release the loyalist codex.
Prefacing this post by saying: I wish GW would have just released 9th with the 2W update for Marines. It's really hard to plan for a new edition while trying to anticipate changes that are on the way.
Roknar wrote:Chain swords getting -1 AP on top of getting an extra wound is pretty sweet for regular marines.
A horde of 20 is now 40 wounds and can be 4 attacks per on the charge with full rerolls (assuming stratagems at least)
With 40 wounds you might even last through a turn to capture an objective and they can benefit from just about any buff you want.
I see this and all I think is Overkill. With the new charge rules, you're often going to be charging a single unit with those 20 CSM.
This is an example of where a good idea is nerfed before it's incorporated into the rules. If the consequences of a failed multicharge were not so dire, chainswords would have more of an impact on the game.
dominuschao wrote:Haven't tried chosen in a looong time but I like the idea. Particularly the dual chosen in termite idea I've seen floating around. Pretty badass.
My guess is most competitive lists will feature Chosen / Drill along with 3 Obliterators. Might be the best option we have for clearing objectives and controlling the center of the board.
Have been thinking about a Black Legion / Death Guard list that would take these plus a Chainlord, a JP Sorcerer, and MSUCSMs with Autocannons. The DG would take Typhus, Blightlord Terminators, Blight Haulers, and a Poxwalker horde. Units would be fairly resilient, good at camping, and excellent at denying opponents opportunities to score.
What makes me leery is the idea that other armies are going to max out on D2 weapons. I'm still getting up to speed on all the NuMarine options that are out there, and I'm having a hard time getting my head around what Dark Eldar / Orks would be most likely to throw up (there the ones I have the most trouble with.) For the points, the Chosen Drill combo needs to be more than a suicide squad because board control matters so much this edition.
If 2W CSM cost 18ppm, that means I could get 3 Cultists for the same price. The trade off is a better save, BS and upgrades in exchange for 1 wound. I'm not at the point where that's a no-brainer.
At some point, this will all be obvious. But not knowing for sure about changes to stats and points is really making it hard to plan for 9th.
I like the 20 marines because if they can get into combat with more than 1 unit is such a huge speed bump to chew through. Just gotta warp time them, etc
Edit- @techsoldaten
Ya I dig the basic shell. If your including DG you'd get more value from PMs over csm though and they don't care nearly as much about d2 weapons.
That assumes you don't want to run a battalion of black legion though.
Cultists still seem to be the more efficient choice to me, but its close. And csm are cooler so theres that. But zombies got them beat too! DG are looking really good now.
Haven't come to grips with the new stuff myself although I am a long time DE player and dabble in orks too (neither one recently). Both can absolutely spam d2 and d3 high ROF weapons. I would guess DE will be running much more covens now for that reason.. picture d2 +1 to wound and auto wounding on 6s to-hit splinter weaponry. And it applies to every gun iirc not just spinterfire.
dominuschao wrote: Edit- @techsoldaten
Ya I dig the basic shell. If your including DG you'd get more value from PMs over csm though and they don't care nearly as much about d2 weapons.
That assumes you don't want to run a battalion of black legion though.
Cultists still seem to be the more efficient choice to me, but its close. And csm are cooler so theres that. But zombies got them beat too! DG are looking really good now.
Haven't come to grips with the new stuff myself although I am a long time DE player and dabble in orks too (neither one recently). Both can absolutely spam d2 and d3 high ROF weapons. I would guess DE will be running much more covens now for that reason.. picture d2 +1 to wound and auto wounding on 6s to-hit splinter weaponry. And it applies to every gun iirc not just spinterfire.
The reason I'm including CSM over PM is assumptions about points. Thinking you get 4 MSUCSM squads for the price of 2 MSUPM squads. If they were equal ppm, yeah, I'd do that in a heartbeat.
Not convinced Death Guard have a clear advantage over CSM. Mobility is important in 9th, DG don't have that with their troops. Stratagems like World Killers are important, units like Obliterators and Discolords are important. Time will tell.
Nothing about DE and Orks surprises me, my local meta is infested with very clever armies of both. At some point, I will get around to playing a game of 9th and will probably get tabled immediately by one of these armies.
Hmm good point but hopefully they don't go up quite that much. Agreed on csm vs DG. I was talking about troops comparison where DG are looking like one of the strongest. In theory anyway.
dominuschao wrote: Hmm good point but hopefully they don't go up quite that much. Agreed on csm vs DG. I was talking about troops comparison where DG are looking like one of the strongest. In theory anyway.
Yeah. I also have a Death Guard army. Very different animal.
The way I think about CSM, they're not going to win any shooting matches and melee mechanics don't favor mid-range armies. They are going to have to have a couple glorious rounds of superior shooting coupled with strategic fights for specific objectives to win.
The way I think about Death Guard, they are not going to win any races. They are going to march across the table and beat opponents by attrition. The pure DG list I'm thinking about will have PMs with flails / axes, Blightlords with the same, and lots of armor.
Maybe I'm just crossing the streams, but it seems like the two armies might be better together. If I had the Chosen Party Drill and some Obliterators shooting up an opponent's backlines while some super tough Blightlords started tying up a couple units in combat, there are armies that won't have the tools to deal with that. Mix in a few Blighthaulers to maybe improve saves and this could be the best of both worlds.
I have no clue what to do with my Chaos Knights or Daemons. They both seem very vulnerable by comparison.
dominuschao wrote: Hmm good point but hopefully they don't go up quite that much. Agreed on csm vs DG. I was talking about troops comparison where DG are looking like one of the strongest. In theory anyway.
Yeah. I also have a Death Guard army. Very different animal.
The way I think about CSM, they're not going to win any shooting matches and melee mechanics don't favor mid-range armies. They are going to have to have a couple glorious rounds of superior shooting coupled with strategic fights for specific objectives to win.
The way I think about Death Guard, they are not going to win any races. They are going to march across the table and beat opponents by attrition. The pure DG list I'm thinking about will have PMs with flails / axes, Blightlords with the same, and lots of armor.
Maybe I'm just crossing the streams, but it seems like the two armies might be better together. If I had the Chosen Party Drill and some Obliterators shooting up an opponent's backlines while some super tough Blightlords started tying up a couple units in combat, there are armies that won't have the tools to deal with that. Mix in a few Blighthaulers to maybe improve saves and this could be the best of both worlds.
I have no clue what to do with my Chaos Knights or Daemons. They both seem very vulnerable by comparison.
Daemons feel like Codex: Nurglings at the moment. Very unfortunate, but hopefully we'll see an update soon
I saw a battle report of Slanaas daemon themed army that was pretty cool and looked good for certain matchups. Not every army can handle 4 keeper of secrets (3 exalted plus 1 named) plus a host of daemonettes running up the field.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I saw a battle report of Slanaas daemon themed army that was pretty cool and looked good for certain matchups. Not every army can handle 4 keeper of secrets (3 exalted plus 1 named) plus a host of daemonettes running up the field.
Not to drag it out discussions of fantasy armies, but there's a case to be made for blobs of 2W CCW Noise Marines who always fight first paired with fast moving Slaanesh Daemon infantry.
One could tie up an opponent while the other closes in to finish the job. They could tie up entire armies while other units seize objectives.
Just to add to the discussion. Deathguard are slow, but not that much slower than CSM. You are as fast as your transports. CSM and deathguard have access to the same transports. So, Rhinos and Drills and Land Raiders.
Footslogging wise, 1 inch difference movement between PM and CSM footsloggers is probably not going to make such a big difference. Especially if you have Brightbringers who allow for picking the higher dice of 2D advance rolls.
Sure, CSM has bikes, but I have yet to see any list that makes heavy use of CSM bikes. Arguably, if deathguard wanted to be fast, they can make heavy use of nurglings and chaos spawn with contaminated monstrosity. Nurglings can start on objectives like scouts. and chaos spawn and beasts with a 7 inch move and super resilient with DR.
The key thing here is firepower vs resilience. CSM can put out more ranged firepower, but are a lot more fragile compared to deathguard.
Right it's less about speed and more about what DG cant access such as oblits, heldrakes etc. I have a buddy thats been playing DG iron warriors and it's a really nasty combo. Potentally similar to BL/DG only more mechanized instead of the veteran focus.
Personally I'm sticking to alpha legion but I splash EC for flavor or sometimes Tsons. Now EC feel like a more viable choice which is cool since before I ran them more for the models. My dilemma is what to do with the 10 primaris Infiltrators I'm sitting on. I'm thinking converted chosen now with the latest info. Any other ideas?
dominuschao wrote: Right it's less about speed and more about what DG cant access such as oblits, heldrakes etc. I have a buddy thats been playing DG iron warriors and it's a really nasty combo. Potentally similar to BL/DG only more mechanized instead of the veteran focus.
Personally I'm sticking to alpha legion but I splash EC for flavor or sometimes Tsons. Now EC feel like a more viable choice which is cool since before I ran them more for the models. My dilemma is what to do with the 10 primaris Infiltrators I'm sitting on. I'm thinking converted chosen now with the latest info. Any other ideas?
Sell them on Facebook.
Infiltrators are popular because they block deep strike for 12 inches, but most people don't have enough for their army.
Have you worked up an EC list yet? Are there units you are looking for? See to it you get enough for at least a CSM boxed set.
What are people's thoughts on the Creations of Bile legion traits, strat and etc. ? I am asking because I am still unsure of which legion to choose for my CSM main detachment.
Bile is freaking amazing, adding 1 str and movement is terrific. His strats are all quite useful. Finally his dp with supreme creation can be a beast.
Having said all of that, his tricks and strats only really help infanty (not cultists) so to take maximum advantage of him thats what you have to focus on. Possessed, beserkers, plauge marines, noise marines, havocs, oblits, normal marines, those kinds of things. If his strats could affect bikers I would say this army is just terrific but alas only the chapter tactic works on bikers and hellbrutes. But even then a double fist brute is only 100 pts. At m 9" and str 14 in cc, and warptime being a thing, you could easily overwhelm your opponent with threat saturation quite easily.
Finally biles change to the entire unit needing to he wholy within 6" hurts. You can't really buff a big blob without wasting a turn on them. So that leaves smaller squads and stuff bile can keep up with t1, which can limit things a bit.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Just to add to the discussion. Deathguard are slow, but not that much slower than CSM. You are as fast as your transports. CSM and deathguard have access to the same transports. So, Rhinos and Drills and Land Raiders.
Footslogging wise, 1 inch difference movement between PM and CSM footsloggers is probably not going to make such a big difference. Especially if you have Brightbringers who allow for picking the higher dice of 2D advance rolls.
Sure, CSM has bikes, but I have yet to see any list that makes heavy use of CSM bikes. Arguably, if deathguard wanted to be fast, they can make heavy use of nurglings and chaos spawn with contaminated monstrosity. Nurglings can start on objectives like scouts. and chaos spawn and beasts with a 7 inch move and super resilient with DR.
The key thing here is firepower vs resilience. CSM can put out more ranged firepower, but are a lot more fragile compared to deathguard.
I get your point and agree the difference in movement is small. While an inch or two may matter in some situations, my concern about transports is the cost in an army with expensive units.
I'm not sure what DG unit comes out of a Drill with enough power to justify the points. Terminators all have deep strike and there's also Strategic Reserves. The reason you do it with CSM Plasma Chosen is that's 10 plasma shots in your opponent's backlines plus the meltas on the drill itself. What is the DG unit that's going to ride in the Drill and how does it compare with the CSM options?
I need to reread the rules on the Drill to see if it can handle Dreads. If so, maybe a cc Contemptor or Leviathan would be a good payload.
Maybe there's a case to be made for cc Plague Marines jumping out of a Rhino. But I'm pretty sure Land Raiders / Assault Klaws / other methods of delivery are less efficient than taking another squad of Plague Marines.
With DR, they can handle some shooting while the footslog. The fastest units are Spawn, Drones, Blight Haulers, PCBs and Mortarion. Not ideal, but maybe they can cover situations where it's important to grab a point mid-table in the early turns. That's really what people should be concerned about. And DG do have enough deep striking Terminator options to handle it.
dominuschao wrote: Right it's less about speed and more about what DG cant access such as oblits, heldrakes etc. I have a buddy thats been playing DG iron warriors and it's a really nasty combo. Potentally similar to BL/DG only more mechanized instead of the veteran focus.
Personally I'm sticking to alpha legion but I splash EC for flavor or sometimes Tsons. Now EC feel like a more viable choice which is cool since before I ran them more for the models. My dilemma is what to do with the 10 primaris Infiltrators I'm sitting on. I'm thinking converted chosen now with the latest info. Any other ideas?
Sell them on Facebook.
Infiltrators are popular because they block deep strike for 12 inches, but most people don't have enough for their army.
Have you worked up an EC list yet? Are there units you are looking for? See to it you get enough for at least a CSM boxed set.
Haha ya that might happen. On the other hand I came across a kickass pic of some AL converted infiltrators which makes me wanna try that. Just need to dig through the bits boxes. But no I really don't need more units. I can't play all the ones I have anymore which is why my lists are stuck. I end up cutting back my flavor units.
My better list is not really where I want to be, but its solid.
Spoiler:
Alpha Legion Battalion
chaos lord- warlord, bike, 2 cbbolters, power fist, vipers bite, headhunter master of possession- mutated invigoration, infernal power, master of diversion
20 cultists
5 chaos marines, cbplas, reaper cc 5 chaos marines, cbplas, reaper cc
5 berzerkers, power fist, axes, swords
5 berzerkers, power fist, axes, swords
contemptor, deathclaws, ep blasters
contemptor, deathclaws, ep blasters
2 rhinos
1 spawn
1 spawn
3 obliterators
defiler, scourge
defiler, scourge
heldrake, baleflamer
1999
The theoretical list that I want I can't fit everything in a way thats satisfying to me.
It would probably lose the spawn, defilers, maybe even the oblits and thus the MOP in order to squeeze an emperors children detachment with rapa talons lord (if hes even playable now), noise marines, terminators and maybe some chosen since I'll lack anti tank. And I want to run my warp talons again but with 2w around the corner I'll leave them out for now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On DG drills the only time I have seen them use one it had 3 foul blightspawn inside along with something I don't recall, maybe PMs. They ended up being a pain a turn later but now if they get 12" range they would be pretty nasty.
So i started playing Night lords with the release of faith and fury and now with the release of 9th it seems like bikers are a super strong pick considering how the missions changed.
I run a MSU of plasma bikers with mark of slaanesh and they always overperform. Would it be crazy to run bigger squads?
Idk man haven't ever used heretic bikers alhtough I've owned several full bike armies.
I'd say part of the reason they over perform is related to their relatively cheap cost.
Adding a couple ablatives would protect the plasma a bit but more bodies also makes it harder for the unit to perform at its pts value.
Another thought.. if it works and its that good don't change it just double up and run 2.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Just to add to the discussion. Deathguard are slow, but not that much slower than CSM. You are as fast as your transports. CSM and deathguard have access to the same transports. So, Rhinos and Drills and Land Raiders.
Footslogging wise, 1 inch difference movement between PM and CSM footsloggers is probably not going to make such a big difference. Especially if you have Brightbringers who allow for picking the higher dice of 2D advance rolls.
Sure, CSM has bikes, but I have yet to see any list that makes heavy use of CSM bikes. Arguably, if deathguard wanted to be fast, they can make heavy use of nurglings and chaos spawn with contaminated monstrosity. Nurglings can start on objectives like scouts. and chaos spawn and beasts with a 7 inch move and super resilient with DR.
The key thing here is firepower vs resilience. CSM can put out more ranged firepower, but are a lot more fragile compared to deathguard.
I get your point and agree the difference in movement is small. While an inch or two may matter in some situations, my concern about transports is the cost in an army with expensive units.
I'm not sure what DG unit comes out of a Drill with enough power to justify the points. Terminators all have deep strike and there's also Strategic Reserves. The reason you do it with CSM Plasma Chosen is that's 10 plasma shots in your opponent's backlines plus the meltas on the drill itself. What is the DG unit that's going to ride in the Drill and how does it compare with the CSM options?
I need to reread the rules on the Drill to see if it can handle Dreads. If so, maybe a cc Contemptor or Leviathan would be a good payload.
Maybe there's a case to be made for cc Plague Marines jumping out of a Rhino. But I'm pretty sure Land Raiders / Assault Klaws / other methods of delivery are less efficient than taking another squad of Plague Marines.
With DR, they can handle some shooting while the footslog. The fastest units are Spawn, Drones, Blight Haulers, PCBs and Mortarion. Not ideal, but maybe they can cover situations where it's important to grab a point mid-table in the early turns. That's really what people should be concerned about. And DG do have enough deep striking Terminator options to handle it.
I think the go to right now for DG with a drill is to put a biologus putrifier along with a large squad of 9 or 10 plague marines. Then they jump out of the Drill with the Biologus. The Biologus then makes all the blight grenades on the plague marines str 4, damage 2 plus when they roll a 6+ on their wound roll for the blight grenades, it causes a mortal wound. So, the idea is you jump out, you use the strategem blight bombardment (1cp) and veterans (1cp) and overwhelming generosity from war of the spider (1cp). So, for a total of 3 CP, your blight grenades are now 12 inch range, every single model of your PM squad can throw a grenade (so that's 10d6 grenades attacks) and finally, on every 5+ to wound, you will cause a mortal wound. I have heard stories of one big squad of PM bringing down an imperial knight with a barrage of blight grenades when they roll well. It costs 3CP though. But its deadly, and invuls do nothing against this attack.
The math. 10d6 grenade attacks on a T7 vehicle would result in 35 attacks, 23 hits, 11.5 wounds, two thirds of these 11.5 wounds will be mortal wounds. So, 7.6 mortal wounds even before rolling for the grenade damage which is 2D each. Also, I haven't factored in the blight grenades are plague weapons, so reroll 1s to wound. That would further increase the wounding attempts, which boosts this even further. So, the mortal wounds is already at least 8 or more, and each failed grenade save is 2D.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Just to add to the discussion. Deathguard are slow, but not that much slower than CSM. You are as fast as your transports. CSM and deathguard have access to the same transports. So, Rhinos and Drills and Land Raiders.
Footslogging wise, 1 inch difference movement between PM and CSM footsloggers is probably not going to make such a big difference. Especially if you have Brightbringers who allow for picking the higher dice of 2D advance rolls.
Sure, CSM has bikes, but I have yet to see any list that makes heavy use of CSM bikes. Arguably, if deathguard wanted to be fast, they can make heavy use of nurglings and chaos spawn with contaminated monstrosity. Nurglings can start on objectives like scouts. and chaos spawn and beasts with a 7 inch move and super resilient with DR.
The key thing here is firepower vs resilience. CSM can put out more ranged firepower, but are a lot more fragile compared to deathguard.
I get your point and agree the difference in movement is small. While an inch or two may matter in some situations, my concern about transports is the cost in an army with expensive units.
I'm not sure what DG unit comes out of a Drill with enough power to justify the points. Terminators all have deep strike and there's also Strategic Reserves. The reason you do it with CSM Plasma Chosen is that's 10 plasma shots in your opponent's backlines plus the meltas on the drill itself. What is the DG unit that's going to ride in the Drill and how does it compare with the CSM options?
I need to reread the rules on the Drill to see if it can handle Dreads. If so, maybe a cc Contemptor or Leviathan would be a good payload.
Maybe there's a case to be made for cc Plague Marines jumping out of a Rhino. But I'm pretty sure Land Raiders / Assault Klaws / other methods of delivery are less efficient than taking another squad of Plague Marines.
With DR, they can handle some shooting while the footslog. The fastest units are Spawn, Drones, Blight Haulers, PCBs and Mortarion. Not ideal, but maybe they can cover situations where it's important to grab a point mid-table in the early turns. That's really what people should be concerned about. And DG do have enough deep striking Terminator options to handle it.
I think the go to right now for DG with a drill is to put a biologus putrifier along with a large squad of 9 or 10 plague marines. Then they jump out of the Drill with the Biologus. The Biologus then makes all the blight grenades on the plague marines str 4, damage 2 plus when they roll a 6+ on their wound roll for the blight grenades, it causes a mortal wound. So, the idea is you jump out, you use the strategem blight bombardment (1cp) and veterans (1cp) and overwhelming generosity from war of the spider (1cp). So, for a total of 3 CP, your blight grenades are now 12 inch range, every single model of your PM squad can throw a grenade (so that's 10d6 grenades attacks) and finally, on every 5+ to wound, you will cause a mortal wound. I have heard stories of one big squad of PM bringing down an imperial knight with a barrage of blight grenades when they roll well. It costs 3CP though. But its deadly, and invuls do nothing against this attack.
The math. 10d6 grenade attacks on a T7 vehicle would result in 35 attacks, 23 hits, 11.5 wounds, two thirds of these 11.5 wounds will be mortal wounds. So, 7.6 mortal wounds even before rolling for the grenade damage which is 2D each. Also, I haven't factored in the blight grenades are plague weapons, so reroll 1s to wound. That would further increase the wounding attempts, which boosts this even further. So, the mortal wounds is already at least 8 or more, and each failed grenade save is 2D.
It's even more gross if you've got a character with Arch Contaminator around (which you can give to the Biologus Putrifier for 1 CP if you'd like) letting you reroll all wounds instead of 1s. You can also get a DP or Lord near them for reroll 1s to hit. Its a fairly expensive and positioning intensive delete button of a combo, but I like the sound of it for a couple of reasons. First, it's a solid amount of spike damage that you can use somewhat surgically against an opponent in what is otherwise a very much war of attrition style army. Hitting a key target or two with the grenade bomb seems like it could easily turn the tide for the rest of the army weathering out the remainder of the games on objectives. Second, all the units needed to perform the first wham-blam-thank you maam combo are all reasonably durable and threatening after the fact so it's not like the whole thing is just a one and done fireworks display. The Termite and the PMs are both solid units in their own right and will require your opponent spend significant resources to remove the, lest you just do the whole thing grenade thing over again or the Termite runs around mucking with anything it can touch in their back lines.
I thought of a list that is based on counter charging whatever the opponent puts on objectives. But the issue I have is that only 2 of the charges from deep strike seem to be more certain. The world eater charges are still based on making a rerollable 8 inch charge, which... is not reliable. Anyway, let me know what you guys think of this concept.
World Eaters and Emperor's Children List.
World Eaters Battalion.
1 more relic - 1cp
Chaos Lord with Jump pack, and demon weapon Z'aall. Warlord trait : Violent urgency (will go into deep strike)
Daemon Prince with Wings, taliman of nurning blood, Daemonic axe.
CSM squad, 5 man, with reaper chain cannon
Two squads of 8 Berserkers, power fist, icon of wrath, chain axes. (using 2 CP to put both in reserve).
1 Havoc squad with 4 reaper chain cannons.
Emperor's children patrol
Daemon Prince with Wings
10 man squad of Noise Marines with 2 blastmasters and the rest sonic blastors.
2 squads of 5 man bolter, power fist terminators (both will go into deep strike as well).
2 Havocs squads with 4 reaper chain cannons each.
And that's it. So, its kind of a beta strike kind of list. So the idea is that I will have the jump pack lord and 2 zerker squads in reserve, plus 2 terminator squads in deep strike.
The rest of the army will hide. And then first turn, the job of all those reaper chain cannons is to clear out all the infantry chaff in the midboard to clear the way for all the stuff coming in from deep strike and reserve.
Then on turn 2, the 2 zerker squads and jump pack lord can come in, and the lord's warlord trait violetn urgency will give the zerker squads a +1 on the charge.
The 2 terminator squads are Emperor's children, so they will come in on turn 2 and 3. And use the strategem "honor the prince" to change 1 dice roll of the charge into a 6. Its a very high chance both units will make the charge using this strategem.
The two daemon princes will hide first turn, and then fly up to mid board to charge and fight on turn 2, when most of the stuff comes in. And turn 3, if I have cleared the midboard hopefully, I will have the last Termi squad deep striking into enemy deployment zone assisted by the 2 flying daemon princes and possibly the warlord on jump pack as well.
I don't know if this kind of list can last the whole 5 turns. But I will have nasty surprises for my opponent on turn 2 and 3.
But I don't know if my turn 2 strike will go well. Its dependent on making a rerollable 8 inch charge with my warlord and the 2 zerker squads. And I am banking that with all the reaper chain cannons and sonic blasters, there won't be much chaff left to screen out all my stuff coming in from deep strike and reserve.
Honestly this list will have a hard time. There is too much in reserve so we're looking at most of your scoring from round 3 which is too late. And without any pressure/push units your deep strike LZs are going to be very restricted leaving a lot hinging on those s5 ap1 shots. If you see a mechanized infantry list or anything benefiting from cover it's just not gonna be impactful. Then the list is looking at making multiple charges from ds or be stuck outside of scoring shooting bolter/hvy bolter rounds.
I like some aspects of the list like the zerks, NM, and maybe 2 units of havocs, but I would reduce the number of reserve units for starters. Getting rhinos instantly makes it more flexible and competitive.
Also I'm not convinced by the combi bolter terminators or the double DPs. The bolters lack impact especially vs cover. Even cbplas termies flop pretty often without reroll and strat support.
The DPs are now sadly barely worth taking. While still semi appealing they are certainly not good enough to double up on.
For some things to consider, I would lose/downgrade at least 1 DP for some rhinos. Either get some better anti tank or combine those terminators and adding plasma so you have a serious target for EC and votlw at least giving you 2 units to force multiply.
Caveat- this could be built for a very specific meta in which case some of this won't apply.
Hmm, yeah, its kind of an off meta type of list. Actually, the two squads of bolter termis aren't relying on their shooting. They are all rocking 5 man power fists. The idea is when they deep strike in, they will make their charge because of the Emperor Children strategem and then do most of their business in close combat.
While we won't be able to score much in Turn 2. The idea is that because we have so much stuff charging in from reserves or deep strike on turn 2, we will also prevent the opponent from scoring much as well.
I did consider more Rhinos. But Rhinos, you have to have at least a few. Else they would definitely be destroyed if they are the only vehicles I have. All my anti vehicle comes from melee actually. Thats why both DP are using axes, the zerkers champs has their power fists and weight of attacks, and the two termi squads are full power fists.
On the note of Rhinos. Anyone tried a mass Rhino type list with CSM? Has it had any success? I got 5 Rhinos and I would love it if such a mechanised list would work now.
Eldenfirefly wrote: On the note of Rhinos. Anyone tried a mass Rhino type list with CSM? Has it had any success? I got 5 Rhinos and I would love it if such a mechanised list would work now.
Had a bit of giggle with my massed csm list and mechanized 6 squads.
I can't really say if it works on every Level but for certain an improvement over 8th.
As an aside , havoc launchers got cheaper and better...
I guess it kinda works the issue is the staying power for the Units to embark on mid needs to be factured in, soooo...
Also probably more firemagnets, maybee even Run 5csm squads x2 per rhino to take advantage of msu.
I guess one advantage we have right now is that we can run such a mechanized list and still have some points left to spend on other stuff because comparatively, our marines are the cheapest around.
It's like 100ppm for a heavy bolter hellforged rapier battery, so basically comparable to Havocs (when taking into account the strengths/weaknesses as well).
Is anyone playing Crusades with a Chaos force, and is anyone going to start a 9ed CSM thread? I’ve started a 9ed Daemonkin thread, but that’s a niche sub subgroup
Hey all, I'm seriously considering starting a Word Bearers army for 9th later this year, though I'll probably wait for the Codex before making big purchases. I'm already hyping myself by reading the codex and Faith & Fury and think I'll go down the theme of Possessed, Greater Possessed, Apostles and the likes, supported by regular SMC, Havocs and the likes. I have yet to write the list but there's a setup that I like a lot, and I'd like your opinion on it if you'd be so kind:
I'd like to make my Warlord a Word Bearers Dark Apostle, with the Dark Council upgrade, the idea being using him as a buffer and beatstick. By using the Exalted Possession WL trait, the Cursed Crozius relic, and the Omen of Potency prayer I end up with a guy that deals 7 attacks at WS 2+, S7, AP-4, D3 that rerolls wounds against Imperium. The obvious downside I see is the mobility, being only 7", so he'll rely on transports or footslogging. But the theme of my army will turn around footslogging or transports too anyway.
Considering he can cast two Prayers he can either buff the units around him with rerolls, or I use the Mark of Khorne or Tzeentch on him, for either a +2S or d3 wounds regen. Both seem good to me. S9 looks a tad overkill though, so with 4 wounds base the regen is more appealing.
To accompany him and his Possessed, I'm thinking a pair of Greater Possessed (who can push the Dark Apostle to S8 with the above buffs), a Master of Possession with a mix of Cursed Earth, Sacrifice or Mutated Invigoration, and a Jump Pack Sorcerer with Weaver of Fates and something. Sub-question: am I correct in assuming that if I pass Cursed Earth and Weaver of Fates on a unit of <Tzeentch> Possessed they end up with a 3++ ?
A big blob of Possessed boosted this way looks good to me, especially if I use the Revered Hosts strat to give them +1D. If every star aligns on a squad of 20 that's 20d3 attacks (rerollable, so 40-60 attacks), 3+ to hit rerollable, S6, +1 to wound (prayer or strat), AP-2, D2 (strat). Defensively that's 40W at T4, 3+/5++ up to 3++. I really like the idea, considering the focus on aggressively assaulting objectives this edition they look ideal for that work. The obvious problem being the mobility... Everything save the MoP will have 7" move but I can't Warp Time everyone at once of course. So either I do multiple units of 10 as well as the characters in Rhinos and rush up the table, or I footslog a unit of 20 and hide it out of LoS and buff the hell out of their invulnerable save and try to engage as soon as I can. Rhino strat costs a but of points in Rhinos but splits the units in 10s so less efficient for buffing. Rhinos die really easily, too. Need to have T1. The footslogging option is really slow however and takes space, they'll get shot easier too.
I'd really like your thoughts on all this mess of ideas please, I've faced SMC in games multiple times but have never played them, so I don't know what's viable. I won't do tourneys but I'd like to be able to build a solid list around this theme, in Word Bearers.
If you are focusing on stacking crazy whack buffs on possessed, then you are definitely running possessed right. Summoned heralds can also buff possessed, I believe. Anyways, outside of a competitive meta I think you'll enjoy playing possessed as the back bone of your army. Everything else is just support at that point. The WL trait that adds attacks to possessed is probably one of the most vital fixes to really make possessed pop off, as d3+1 attack on the charge makes them more expensive than berzerkers, less punchy, and not that much more resilient. Adding that extra attack IMO via the warlord trait is vital.
I've faced WB possessed but never used em myself, although I've brewed a bit. My feeling is that your ideas are on target. But the uber dark apostle warlord is not ideal. It's thematic as hell and hits hard. But is too fragile, slow and has a lot of working parts. Better to build a dedicated beatstick for the combat role I think and then dedicated support character(s).
From my experience (against) WB possessed the revered host is the most vital buff to their success. And of course defensive buffs. Anything else is gravy. On that note I would consider delightful agonies and cursed earth. In a straight single wound attack setting they are identical but overall fnp is stronger than 3++ vs multi damage weaponry.
The mechanized approach is cool. It's faster and protects the bodies more while splitting their threat while allowing you to target RH where it's needed. The deathstat version is probably nastier overall but more "all in" and more susceptible to being focused down.
Thanks for the input guys, really appreciate it ! I've written a test list to see which direction I can go. This list will probably never see the light of day as I don't own any Chaos models, and I'll probably wait until 9th to start, however it's too fun to write lists and speculate. Also things will change with the upcoming wargear and wounds bump (3W Possessed ? ). ALSO I really hope a remake of the Possessed model is underway, as it's currently really old and expensive on top of that.
Spoiler:
Word Bearers Batallion (Slaanesh):
- Dark Apostle, Warlord (Master of the Union), Apostle of the Dark Council (1CP), knows Soultearer Portent and Benediction of Darkness - Master of Possession, knows Cursed Earth and Mutated Invigoration - Sorcerer with Jet Pack, The Malefic Tome, knows Death Hex, Warptime and Delightful Agonies
- 3x5 Chaos Space Marines, Combi-plasma and Plasma gun
- Daemon Prince with Wings, pair of Malefic Talons, Warp Bolter, Talisman of Burning Blood
- 10 Chaos Space Marines, Plasma pistol, Power axe, 9 Chainswords, Icon of Wrath
- Rhino
1987 pts
I've followed your advice and made the Dark Apostle more of a support character than a beatstick (though I'll try it someday), and so gave him the +1A aura for Daemons. The Beatstick™ is the DP of Khorne, 8 attacks of pure rage, accompanied by 10 melee SMC in a Rhino to have some ObSec assault to help contest the objectives in enemy territory (and provide Look out, Sir!).
I'll go the mechanised approach with this list, having 2 Rhinos for the 2x10 Possessed and a third for the Dark Apostle, MoP and Disciples. HOWEVER it poses me a serious problem due to the timing of the Prayers. They're made at the start of the battle round and so can't be made while in a transport. So turn 1 I can Pray, embark him manually and then ride, but it'll be useless, and turn 2 when I disembark I won't have any buffs, turn 3 will see me having probably less models and the game almost decided by then. I don't know how to counter this save for running a footslog version, which will be slower, but can be boosted defensively with Cursed Earth and Delightful Agonies, as well as the Benediction of Darkness prayer. But then it's slower...
I included 2 Obliterators because I figured I needed a bit of anti-big stuff weaponry, and that Endless Cacophony on Obliterators can still be good I guess. If needed I can give them rerolls on the random stuff with the MoP but that's not the point of the MoP in this list. Also, I'll get Obliterators in the Start Collecting boxes.
All the daemon for your list! I echo your sentiment; I don’t like current possessed models. I definitely do not have the painting skills to make them look good. I think it’s a fun list that will carry you through a casual meta. Also it’ll look pretty cool, fluffy and thematic. And let’s face the facts rule of cool wins every time.
macluvin wrote: All the daemon for your list! I echo your sentiment; I don’t like current possessed models. I definitely do not have the painting skills to make them look good. I think it’s a fun list that will carry you through a casual meta. Also it’ll look pretty cool, fluffy and thematic. And let’s face the facts rule of cool wins every time.
Possessed bits can be quite easily combined with the new CSM kit, or the ones from the starter set, to get some quite amazing models imo.
but yes, they nowadays without heavy modification look a bit, too , cartoony.
What does a competitive CSM list ressemble nowadays ?
Also, are Lord Discordants and Venomcrawlers any good ? I love both models, and I'll probably get two Start Collecting when I get to buy SMC. Looking at it on paper hitting on 4+ is bad, which kinda forces us to run the Lord Discordant, however he's not protected by Character rules and so a easy target.
I dont like VCs, or daemon engines, they require a lot of support to work. Yes, you can bring a disco lord along, and they hit on 3s, you can cast prescience on them, and they hit on 2s, but then you roll a 2 or 3 for their number of shots. You can bring a greater possessed to give them S+1, or a chaos lord to reroll 1s, or a dark apostle to buff their inv to 4+, but then you fail the roll of 7. You can bring a herald of slaanesh, to allow them to charge after advancing. And then your VCs blow up, killing your support characters. They take up heavy support slots, which cant be used for havocs. And they dont benefit from legion traits.
Yeah reading the codex it feels like too much hassle to make them do what they're supposed to. I don't want to lug around 3 characters to make one unit work every time I add something to my army.
On the question of Havocs, are they our best anti-tank option or is the spot reserved for something else ? If going unsupported, I'd give them Heavy Bolters or Chainreapers because of the number of shots, but if going with Lascannons, 4 shots at BS3+ are unreliable and would need a Dark Apostle/Prescience to help them.
Also I wonder which will be a better choice between HB and CRC when the HB gets buffed to 2D. Point costs will determine I guess.
Aaranis wrote: Yeah reading the codex it feels like too much hassle to make them do what they're supposed to. I don't want to lug around 3 characters to make one unit work every time I add something to my army.
On the question of Havocs, are they our best anti-tank option or is the spot reserved for something else ? If going unsupported, I'd give them Heavy Bolters or Chainreapers because of the number of shots, but if going with Lascannons, 4 shots at BS3+ are unreliable and would need a Dark Apostle/Prescience to help them.
Also I wonder which will be a better choice between HB and CRC when the HB gets buffed to 2D. Point costs will determine I guess.
Daemonengines, are actually , due to their price having dropped quite heavily, not as bad anymore as they once were.
the issue is, especially for the more shooty oriented, that the unit that should fix them / would fix them, didn't get the aura, which is stuck on an overly efficently priced Beatstick...
Also VC, even though awesome, are a bit dangerous for your own army... However, i found some success in flinging them at my oponent, assault guns and high speed makes them easily usefull as a quasi suiced charge unit. + firing in melee is now a thing.
Shooty AT havocs are a tad reliant on rerolls imo, who knows, with the buff to the missile launcher maybee that option get's considered more, AC's also still exist. But the overall easiest weapon to make them work would be high dakka, cacophony out of a termite or via movement shenanigans positioned unit. They do their job, if equipped for AT, still better then obliterators though, preciscly because they aren't as random as Oblits and are also alot cheaper comparatively.
Dark Apostles want their boots to be on the ground every turn, or else their prayer ability is being wasted, plus they take up a really inefficient three spaces with their disciples. I can't really recommend any Relic for the main one other than the Epistle of Lorgar - being unable to fix prayers with a command reroll is a major issue.
A second beatstick DA with cursed crozius is fun in like Crusade or casual games, but it's not going to storm any tournaments, and a hammer lord does everything it does better.
A chaos lord with jump pack and ashen axe is an incredible addition. If you're not fighting an all flying tau army, you can make anything stay in combat and take their punishment.
Oblits are a solid accompaniment to a MoP with MI, especially with MoS. Especially now they can deploy behind LOS blocking terrain. For the first turn or two, you can soup up their guns, then you can enhance the Possessed.
Never forget your Legion stratagems, Malevolent Covenant and Hexagrammic Ward are borderline game changers. The stuff you can pull off with them is amazing. Being able to nigh guarantee turning off a unit's Storm Shields is outstanding. Swatting aside a Relic Thunder Hammer is priceless.
I'm not a big fan of stacking strength buffs. If you're S5-6, you're strong enough to beat up most things with help from VotLW. Relying on three or four buffs to be able to hurt something is really vulnerable to a moving part failing on you. Extra attacks and rerolls are far more reliable IME.
Chaos Daemons allies are a really powerful moving part. Some of them, you can summon in, some of them, you really benefit from having in a detachment to gain an extra Locus. (This also opens up the Possession stratagem, which has excellent synergy with MoP.)
A Poxbringer can effectively give you rolling VotLW on a melee unit, and if it's not summoned then it can also make them spew out mortal wounds. A Gnarlmaw can make deployed units extremely resilient to losing first turn and taking fire - and opens the door to warptiming a unit into charging on the first turn.
A Khorne hero in your army list can currently give daemon engines rerolls to charge, but that role's future is uncertain with the new Core rules rolling out.
A summoned Changeling is a great addition to a Tzeentch possessed 3++ blob. D2 weapons are going to become a lot more common, and it's aura reduces their effectiveness by a third. You can also get some handy unit buffs from a summoned Herald.
Deploying a Slaanesh Daemons Vanguard gives you a lot of fall back denial, and a load of first turn advance & charge, and potentially a bonus round of attacks on a unit.
With the new rules concerning rerolls being limited to core units, does anyone here think that Chaos lords with jump packs are less worthwhile? There's no point in following fast vehicles anymore and more incentive in simply staying with troop units. I'm asking since I'm thinking of building at least one and don't want to build anything unnecessary.
Dark Apostles want their boots to be on the ground every turn, or else their prayer ability is being wasted, plus they take up a really inefficient three spaces with their disciples. I can't really recommend any Relic for the main one other than the Epistle of Lorgar - being unable to fix prayers with a command reroll is a major issue.
A second beatstick DA with cursed crozius is fun in like Crusade or casual games, but it's not going to storm any tournaments, and a hammer lord does everything it does better.
A chaos lord with jump pack and ashen axe is an incredible addition. If you're not fighting an all flying tau army, you can make anything stay in combat and take their punishment.
Oblits are a solid accompaniment to a MoP with MI, especially with MoS. Especially now they can deploy behind LOS blocking terrain. For the first turn or two, you can soup up their guns, then you can enhance the Possessed.
Never forget your Legion stratagems, Malevolent Covenant and Hexagrammic Ward are borderline game changers. The stuff you can pull off with them is amazing. Being able to nigh guarantee turning off a unit's Storm Shields is outstanding. Swatting aside a Relic Thunder Hammer is priceless.
I'm not a big fan of stacking strength buffs. If you're S5-6, you're strong enough to beat up most things with help from VotLW. Relying on three or four buffs to be able to hurt something is really vulnerable to a moving part failing on you. Extra attacks and rerolls are far more reliable IME.
Chaos Daemons allies are a really powerful moving part. Some of them, you can summon in, some of them, you really benefit from having in a detachment to gain an extra Locus. (This also opens up the Possession stratagem, which has excellent synergy with MoP.)
A Poxbringer can effectively give you rolling VotLW on a melee unit, and if it's not summoned then it can also make them spew out mortal wounds. A Gnarlmaw can make deployed units extremely resilient to losing first turn and taking fire - and opens the door to warptiming a unit into charging on the first turn.
A Khorne hero in your army list can currently give daemon engines rerolls to charge, but that role's future is uncertain with the new Core rules rolling out.
A summoned Changeling is a great addition to a Tzeentch possessed 3++ blob. D2 weapons are going to become a lot more common, and it's aura reduces their effectiveness by a third. You can also get some handy unit buffs from a summoned Herald.
Deploying a Slaanesh Daemons Vanguard gives you a lot of fall back denial, and a load of first turn advance & charge, and potentially a bonus round of attacks on a unit.
Lots of good info here, thanks ! I don't think I'm going to play Daemons though, I don't like mixing up codices and I'm not fond of most of the Daemon models sadly.
I skipped on the Ashen Axe, but it's a great relic indeed ! It's very powerful to be able to lock a unit forever. You don't even have to be able to destroy the unit, locking a horde of 20 Plaguebearers or something in place forever neutralises them. Though with the profile of the weapon it can kill anything more or less reliably. Running the Chaos Lord with Exalted Possession seems like a good idea to have more power with +1A, +1S and +1" move no ?
If the Dark Apostle on foot is better for his prayers (as I suspected), is my idea of a 20 Possessed blob on foot a bad one or not ? They're not slow but they're not fast either, they could get shot at, tarpitted or something in the meantime... I suppose it can be fun and powerful in more casual games, but in competitive I guess the Dark Apostle is better off buffing shooting units ?
Chaos Lord with Jump Pack vs Flying Daemon Prince, which would you take ? And Havocs vs Obliterators for anti-high Toughness, which is a better idea ? Obliterators look more resilient.
I personally would not try to put possessed on a table for a competitive game. Without massive support they are such a points sink that does almost nothing. They swing 2-4 attacks on the charge raw, which for the price, about the only thing they got on berserkers is mark of Slaanesh for the charge strat and 5++ and an extra wound. Which the marine meta may neuter all of those bonuses if things like heavy bolters with d2 and ap -1, see more tables... which turns your possessed into more expensive and less effective berserkers for all intents and purposes. A huge part of all of this is we have no idea what changes will accompany our codex release and how some of those things will change.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit: I would love to play possessed in a casual game. Also berserkers of course swing garunteed almost twice as much which I forgot to include in the comparison.
In a casual game I would totally play a Word Bearers army with a dark apostle master of possession and horde of possessed and maybe even spawn and other gribblies and of course loyal followers of either chosen or chaos space marine tac squads....
But Berzerkers have no way to get a 4++ do they ? In every game I played against Berzerkers (in 8th) they did one good fight sometimes and then got shot horribly. Having double the wounds and an invulnerable save looks pretty good no ?
All non-primaris Space Marine profiles are getting revised in the coming period, with 2W being standard. No clues as to what this means for Possessed, though
Aaranis wrote: But Berzerkers have no way to get a 4++ do they ? In every game I played against Berzerkers (in 8th) they did one good fight sometimes and then got shot horribly. Having double the wounds and an invulnerable save looks pretty good no ?
I trust your experience, just asking questions
I mean if you shoot a heavy bolter at them they are saving d2 so the wound does nothing without a fnp equivalent buff and the 4++ means nothing against ap1 like what the heavy bolter got. That sort of weaponry is going to be incredibly common come next month as well. At least the berserkers will kill something. Terminators are something entirely differently worth considering as well. I’m not saying that possessed are terrible, I’m saying they shouldn’t be used in the same sentence as the word competitive. Like, I would bring possessed in a fluffy word bearers list out for a fun casual game. I would laugh maniacally as my diabolical and foul magiks make them into tough to kill fast little murder machines. I certainly would not try to bring an optimized possessed list to a competitive match, however. Unless they got obsec equivalent rules in a word bearers list...
lindsay40k wrote: All non-primaris Space Marine profiles are getting revised in the coming period, with 2W being standard. No clues as to what this means for Possessed, though
I completely agree. An extra wound on possessed would put them in that odd niche of not really being lethal (especially considering the overall increase in lethality even comparatively with a slight increase in survivability) but being tough as nails to put down. Plus we don’t know what else they are doing with the profile so maybe we’ll get extra attacks on the profile as well. The rando attacks that range from craptastic to moderately decent/honestly how they should be hitting every time has been my major issue with possessed. In fact d2 attacks would make the randumb attacks at worst decent against a niche of targets that it wouldn’t be such a terrible thing. I just don’t think that possessed are going to be competitive until the next codex release all things considered and I don’t think they’ve been competitive at all since I started playing in 7th.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But in 8th they’ve certainly come a long way and word bearers have plenty of tools to mitigate the problems possessed shouldn’t have had at that price point in the first place. And like I said. They definitely have a place on a casual table.
lindsay40k wrote:We don't know what Warpsmiths will do - quite possibly be a chaos lord for vehicles - and IMO Lords have a few remaining niches
Fly alongside rhinos full of shock troops without taking up space
Jump with hammer
Gunline marshall
Gadzilla666 wrote:It depends on the Legion. A Night Lords army without a jump lord just doesn't seem right.
These are all good points. I might give one a pack to keep up with berzerker-filled rhinos.
About possessed, to make them better, I think that they need more distinction due to individual marks. Maybe Tzeentch possessed units could cast one smite per turn like horrors can, Nurgle ones get disgusting resilience and/or the plague weapon ability during attacks, Khorne ones get the locus of rage when in proximity with other Khorne daemons, and Slaanesh ones get quicksilver swiftness.
I’ll be surprised if 9ed Possessed don’t get 2W or D3W attacks by standard. The Astartes wound count is absolutely framing things in terms of ‘Space Marine basic troops are similar to most army’s elites’, with elite roles widely getting access to anti-space marine weapons (the rollout of D2 weapons), and Space Marine elites gaining access *and resistance* to those weapons. W3 might be a bit of a reach, notwithstanding a new kit that makes them built like Reivers and as big as Gravis, but it’d certainly make them really look and feel the part as Lorgar’s HH trump card
Yeah lots of Chaos units are in need of a remake. Possessed, Bikers, Berzerkers (I can't look at them without hurting my eyes honestly), Raptors and Warp Talons, Defilers... But seeing what's happening meanwhile in the Xenos range they need a lot of love too.
What does a competitive Chaos army looks like nowadays ? I guess Cultist spam is kinda dead, in favour or Plague Marines or something. Are Havocs and Terminators any good ?
I've started to try to compare a few units in the codex for resilience since sitting and holding an objective cheaply is so important in this edition.
It's so difficult since durability is dependent on what is being fired at them. This is how far I've gotten:
Not very far but I might add to this as I go. It's made me really consider Mutilators though. They're more resistant to bolters than the same points of p.marines and spawn, the lack of T5 hurts them when you start considering heavy bolters but in all honesty you're probably more likely looking at getting hit with the plethora of S4 weapons with -1 or -2ap that primaris have available to them...
Interested to hear what people are thinking?
What's the best loadout for a Hellforged Predator? I'm going to give it at least one flame weapon since it's oriented towards melee combat, but I'm not sure if I should either put on the heavy bolters or autocannon to give it some long-ranged firepower, or go all in with the flamers (btw, I'm converting a Baal Predator so I don't have access to the full weapons load out, though I could possibly buy any of the other weapons separately, so any opinions on those would be worthwhile as well).
i have one I haven't used in ages but I'm tempted to roll it out again. I intended to try it out again when the Baal preator got it's range boost, presuming the FW rules would be updated at the time too. Classic GW.
With the 12" range now being universal I think go all in on the flamers, it strikes me as a great move blocker
Yeah a Hellforged Predator decked out all flamers running with Rhinos filled with close combat troops sounds like a good plan to me.
The Predator clears the screen and the troops take objectives or get in position to pull off some crucial charges while using the Rhinos and Predator as cover.
What’s the craic with Alpha Legion these days? I’ve been musing on adding a small detachment to my black crusade. I’m thinking nice and simple: a full unit of Oblits to send up into the middle, a horde of Heretacs with Chaincannons to go with them and enable concealment, a biker sniper Lord with Viper’s Bite to be an annoying swine (probably with a TH, so he can also put his range to use as a scarecrow), and either a Sorcerer with Prescience and DA to toughen up the screen and enhance the gunners, or else a Master of Possession to cast Mutated Invigoration and either use a Familiar to get Prescience or else go BoN fishing with Incursion. Cute little Patrol that can fit into most of my Daemonkin lists.
Basically an excuse to do up some Centurions with Possessed bits and make a biker Lord posed like the GSC sniper.
lindsay40k wrote: What’s the craic with Alpha Legion these days? I’ve been musing on adding a small detachment to my black crusade. I’m thinking nice and simple: a full unit of Oblits to send up into the middle, a horde of Heretacs with Chaincannons to go with them and enable concealment, a biker sniper Lord with Viper’s Bite to be an annoying swine (probably with a TH, so he can also put his range to use as a scarecrow), and either a Sorcerer with Prescience and DA to toughen up the screen and enhance the gunners, or else a Master of Possession to cast Mutated Invigoration and either use a Familiar to get Prescience or else go BoN fishing with Incursion. Cute little Patrol that can fit into most of my Daemonkin lists.
Basically an excuse to do up some Centurions with Possessed bits and make a biker Lord posed like the GSC sniper.
Biker lord can't take a thunder hammer unfortunately. Although considering they are now legends you might as well run them with whatever your opponent agrees...
lindsay40k wrote: What’s the craic with Alpha Legion these days? I’ve been musing on adding a small detachment to my black crusade. I’m thinking nice and simple: a full unit of Oblits to send up into the middle, a horde of Heretacs with Chaincannons to go with them and enable concealment, a biker sniper Lord with Viper’s Bite to be an annoying swine (probably with a TH, so he can also put his range to use as a scarecrow), and either a Sorcerer with Prescience and DA to toughen up the screen and enhance the gunners, or else a Master of Possession to cast Mutated Invigoration and either use a Familiar to get Prescience or else go BoN fishing with Incursion. Cute little Patrol that can fit into most of my Daemonkin lists.
Basically an excuse to do up some Centurions with Possessed bits and make a biker Lord posed like the GSC sniper.
can work, a bit CP intensive though because AL.
I do reccomend the ilussionary DA for a cultist blob (3x10 or 2x 10 and 1x 30 to tae advantage of the tide?)
On heretacs i am a bit split, i do myself have some for my AL, but MSU is kinda needed to get a bit more out of their durability.
If you want a TH vipersbite lord with headhunter i'd make one with jumppack simply because that option is not legended..
I don’t bother with DA’s if they’re not a WB or carrying a legion DA relic, only doing a single prayer and being unable to Reroll a fail is a hard pass for me
lindsay40k wrote: I don’t bother with DA’s if they’re not a WB or carrying a legion DA relic, only doing a single prayer and being unable to Reroll a fail is a hard pass for me
your loss, cult leader illusiory is a fun little combination for a fluffy AL army.
ArcaneHorror wrote: What's the best loadout for a Hellforged Predator? I'm going to give it at least one flame weapon since it's oriented towards melee combat, but I'm not sure if I should either put on the heavy bolters or autocannon to give it some long-ranged firepower, or go all in with the flamers (btw, I'm converting a Baal Predator so I don't have access to the full weapons load out, though I could possibly buy any of the other weapons separately, so any opinions on those would be worthwhile as well).
the flamestorm on the Baal Predator has now gone to a frankly massive 18". Hopefully this time FW follow suit...
l0k1 wrote: With the changes to Heavy Bolters(with Prescience/Endless Cacophony/VoTLW) are they better at taking down light vehicles now than Autocannons?
Mechanicum priest to tell you the maths of this !
Heavy Bolter, 10 pts, Heavy 3 S5 AP-1 2D, shot by an Havoc, with Prescience, Endless Cacophony and VotLW:
vs T5 4+: 4,44 wounds
vs T6 4+: 3,33 wounds
vs T7 3+: 2,50 wounds
vs T8 3+: 2,50 wounds
Autocannon, 10 pts, Heavy 2 S7 AP-1 2D, shot by an Havoc, with Prescience, Endless Cacophony and VotLW:
vs T5 4+: 3,70 wounds
vs T6 4+: 3,70 wounds
vs T7 3+: 2,22 wounds
vs T8 3+: 1,67 wounds
Looks like the Autocannon is only better (and meagerly) against the T6/4+ profile, which is highly specific (only Ironstriders/Dragoons from AdMech have this that I know of, maybe some Aeldari vehicles). Haven't run the maths with no buffs though but the Heavy Bolter wins on account of polyvalence. It has reduced range but 36" is often long enough.
l0k1 wrote: With the changes to Heavy Bolters(with Prescience/Endless Cacophony/VoTLW) are they better at taking down light vehicles now than Autocannons?
Mechanicum priest to tell you the maths of this !
Heavy Bolter, 10 pts, Heavy 3 S5 AP-1 2D, shot by an Havoc, with Prescience, Endless Cacophony and VotLW:
vs T5 4+: 4,44 wounds
vs T6 4+: 3,33 wounds
vs T7 3+: 2,50 wounds
vs T8 3+: 2,50 wounds
Autocannon, 10 pts, Heavy 2 S7 AP-1 2D, shot by an Havoc, with Prescience, Endless Cacophony and VotLW:
vs T5 4+: 3,70 wounds
vs T6 4+: 3,70 wounds
vs T7 3+: 2,22 wounds
vs T8 3+: 1,67 wounds
Looks like the Autocannon is only better (and meagerly) against the T6/4+ profile, which is highly specific (only Ironstriders/Dragoons from AdMech have this that I know of, maybe some Aeldari vehicles). Haven't run the maths with no buffs though but the Heavy Bolter wins on account of polyvalence. It has reduced range but 36" is often long enough.
Interesting. Thanks for the math! Looks like Heavy bolters are back in my list of things to build
Green is Best! wrote:How are you getting a chaos lord on a bike? (Sorry, just getting back into 40K). Where are the rules for this?
Thanks
They were moved to legends a few months ago so only really usable in friendly games with opponents permission.
Aaranis wrote:
l0k1 wrote: With the changes to Heavy Bolters(with Prescience/Endless Cacophony/VoTLW) are they better at taking down light vehicles now than Autocannons?
Mechanicum priest to tell you the maths of this !
Heavy Bolter, 10 pts, Heavy 3 S5 AP-1 2D, shot by an Havoc, with Prescience, Endless Cacophony and VotLW:
vs T5 4+: 4,44 wounds
vs T6 4+: 3,33 wounds
vs T7 3+: 2,50 wounds
vs T8 3+: 2,50 wounds
Autocannon, 10 pts, Heavy 2 S7 AP-1 2D, shot by an Havoc, with Prescience, Endless Cacophony and VotLW:
vs T5 4+: 3,70 wounds
vs T6 4+: 3,70 wounds
vs T7 3+: 2,22 wounds
vs T8 3+: 1,67 wounds
Looks like the Autocannon is only better (and meagerly) against the T6/4+ profile, which is highly specific (only Ironstriders/Dragoons from AdMech have this that I know of, maybe some Aeldari vehicles). Haven't run the maths with no buffs though but the Heavy Bolter wins on account of polyvalence. It has reduced range but 36" is often long enough.
Thanks for this, looks like I'm retiring the autocannons then. I have always loved heavy bolters though i always felt like a space marine should be able to fire one on the move without penalty.
I think i'll still take a reaper chaincannon as the heavy in a squad of csm, the extra shots mitigates the -1 and the cost is less prohibitive when hidden behind 4 ablative wounds (soon to be 9!) but a squad of 4 heavy bolter havocs might have to be added to my list. 36" range is generally enough on the new sized tables...
p5freak wrote: Legends are still legal in matched play, no permission from opponent needed.
Are you sure? To be honest I just checked the Legends page on WarCom and it does say they can be used in matched play but I'd still think it really needs a conversation before using them.
I think the issue would be that many haven't had a points adjustment throughout 8th edition. With the 9th edition price hike across the board, many of the Legends units must now be undercosted. Saying that, the aforementioned Biker Lord is 116pts barebones while the identical captain on a bike is only 100pts for loyalists.
Until I just looked at the loyalist points, I was under the impression the biker lord was an unfair bargain for us being only 11 points more than a jump pack lord with 2" extra movement, 6" advance, extra toughness and wound and a built in combi bolter.
Loyalists get that all for 5pts less than a jump pack captain, I'm surprised you don't see more of them now...
p5freak wrote: Legends are still legal in matched play, no permission from opponent needed.
Are you sure? To be honest I just checked the Legends page on WarCom and it does say they can be used in matched play but I'd still think it really needs a conversation before using them.
Yes, i am sure. No permission needed. If it makes you feel better, talk to your opponent.
Since loyalist dreadnoughts seem to be getting the CORE keyword, I wonder if the same will be done for Chaos versions, hellforged and/or helbrutes. Helbrutes don't get that much play right now I don't thinking, but with the new multi-melta rules plus possibly being CORE, they could become major players.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Since loyalist dreadnoughts seem to be getting the CORE keyword, I wonder if the same will be done for Chaos versions, hellforged and/or helbrutes. Helbrutes don't get that much play right now I don't thinking, but with the new multi-melta rules plus possibly being CORE, they could become major players.
I think GW will grant Hellbrutes infantry and bikers (if lucky) the core rules just like now our traits are.
Frankly, the hellbrute isn't even bad overall, it's just another vehicle that get's pushed out of the meta because it has no invul and is not tanky enough / price to stand up to a meta that has a high focus on AT. Also the new eradicators certainly haven't helped that situation.
Are the Psychic Awakening books legal in tournaments? I have a doubles tournament coming up on Saturday and if I can't use the Warlord traits, Relics and Strategems from Faith and Fury then I am going to be no use to my partner as Alpha Legion.
Reivax26 wrote: Are the Psychic Awakening books legal in tournaments? I have a doubles tournament coming up on Saturday and if I can't use the Warlord traits, Relics and Strategems from Faith and Fury then I am going to be no use to my partner as Alpha Legion.
Reivax26 wrote: Are the Psychic Awakening books legal in tournaments? I have a doubles tournament coming up on Saturday and if I can't use the Warlord traits, Relics and Strategems from Faith and Fury then I am going to be no use to my partner as Alpha Legion.
AFAIK only things that have been barred from tourneys are Specialist Detachments (Vigilus Ablaze)
Reivax26 wrote: Are the Psychic Awakening books legal in tournaments? I have a doubles tournament coming up on Saturday and if I can't use the Warlord traits, Relics and Strategems from Faith and Fury then I am going to be no use to my partner as Alpha Legion.
AFAIK only things that have been barred from tourneys are Specialist Detachments (Vigilus Ablaze)
Yep, everything in Psychic Awakening for us is still legitimate.
Yeah, DE Jamboree will only be affected if (1) you rely on a T1 advance + smoke bombs Defiler avalanche, (2) Daemonkin loci get Core-locked, or (3) you rely on CL aura and DP aura also gets Core-locked
Techmarine gained a single unite vehicle hit modifier buff and an upgrade that’s not a million miles away from master of the Soulforges, I’m cautiously optimistic that we’ll get some of the fun stuff from VA back
Okay, Heavy Bolters becoming 2D will actually impact on DE spam regardless
BTW, the Reaper Autocannon AP-2 D1 may be inconsistent with Autocannons but it is consistent with the reaper profile in Codex SM, which is there because it’s in the Tartaros Terminators kit, so unless that itself was a typo you can take our new profile as staying
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmm. There’s Techmarine auras that are specific to Dreadnoughts, which can be used to “fix” heavily injured characters. I wonder what’s going to be rolled out with our frothingM point-and-let go Helbrutes? I assume we’ll be able to stick a Crusade model in there to punish failure...
...if it were me, I’d give the interned model a bonus aura making characters fight harder for fear of the same, but that’s veering into wishlisting...
Not Online!!! wrote: did you clap wood when you called the LD non core?
Because now watch gw feth it up.
I'm hoping we won't need the LD aura. Give the Legions back their +1 LD on all Legionnaires compared to the Loyalist Dogs, hopefully with some other stat buffs. Make VOTLW something other than a strategem again.
Hmm. This EC relic, Remnant of the Maraviglia. “Until the end of that battle round, when resolving an attack made by a model in a friendly EMPEROR’S CHILDREN unit within 6" of a model with this Relic, you can re-roll the wound roll.“
It doesn’t specify “attacks made with melee weapons”… potential T1 leafblower list? I could go for eighteen S5 D2 Sonic Blasters double-tapping and re-rolling. Not too difficult to get a Possessed horde to conga-line into range of it, either. Give them combat elixirs and a daemon‘s locus, and the charge is doable without Warptime... maybe use that to throw a Defiler or whatnot into the mix. Get some Fiends in there, and the Possessed get protected from firepower, and strike before all but the first counter-charging unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Huh.
Invulnerable save rules:
“Each time an attack is allocated to a model with an invulnerable save, you can choose to use either its normal Save (Sv) characteristic or its invulnerable save, but not both. If a model has more than one invulnerable save, it can only use one of them - choose which it will use. If you use a model’s invulnerable save, it is never modified by a weapon’s Armour Penetration value.“
Rubric Marines All is Dust rules:
“Add 1 to saving throws for Rubric Marines if the attack has a Damage characteristic of 1”
Throw in the Tzeentch endurance spell, and that’s a 3++... interesting.
I think the new death guard codex will be the one we should look at. That will likely affect many CSM armies because we share so many units and wargear. They may also do something similar to SM and declare that CSM armies use the datasheets of shared wargear and units in the deathguard codex.
Yeh I'm really interested in the DG codex because I want to know what they are going to do with chainaxes. They are now objectively worse than chainswords and 1pt more expensive.
It should also give us an indication on daemon Engines status
Not Online!!! wrote: did you clap wood when you called the LD non core?
Because now watch gw feth it up.
I'm hoping we won't need the LD aura. Give the Legions back their +1 LD on all Legionnaires compared to the Loyalist Dogs, hopefully with some other stat buffs. Make VOTLW something other than a strategem again.
I believe he meant the lord discordant aura...
Allbeit the NL -1 LD aura certainly is also a candidate for a looking at.. but GW's priorities lie atm with primaris and a minescule proportion necrons
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. This EC relic, Remnant of the Maraviglia. “Until the end of that battle round, when resolving an attack made by a model in a friendly EMPEROR’S CHILDREN unit within 6" of a model with this Relic, you can re-roll the wound roll.“
It doesn’t specify “attacks made with melee weapons”… potential T1 leafblower list? I could go for eighteen S5 D2 Sonic Blasters double-tapping and re-rolling. Not too difficult to get a Possessed horde to conga-line into range of it, either. Give them combat elixirs and a daemon‘s locus, and the charge is doable without Warptime... maybe use that to throw a Defiler or whatnot into the mix. Get some Fiends in there, and the Possessed get protected from firepower, and strike before all but the first counter-charging unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Huh.
Invulnerable save rules:
“Each time an attack is allocated to a model with an invulnerable save, you can choose to use either its normal Save (Sv) characteristic or its invulnerable save, but not both. If a model has more than one invulnerable save, it can only use one of them - choose which it will use. If you use a model’s invulnerable save, it is never modified by a weapon’s Armour Penetration value.“
Rubric Marines All is Dust rules:
“Add 1 to saving throws for Rubric Marines if the attack has a Damage characteristic of 1”
Throw in the Tzeentch endurance spell, and that’s a 3++... interesting.
Throw in the thousand sons stratagem that gives rubrics/scarabs +1 to their saves and you get 2++/3++ saves, depending on if all is dust applies.
Abaddon303 wrote: Yeh I'm really interested in the DG codex because I want to know what they are going to do with chainaxes. They are now objectively worse than chainswords and 1pt more expensive.
It should also give us an indication on daemon Engines status
Given what Space Wolves’ frost weapons have gone through, I expect bubotic axes and the like to default to regular power weapons
Chain axes are still fine, you don’t take them instead of Chainswords, you take them instead of pistols. The rollout of D2 anti-Astartes weaponry means that Gravis armour is going to become more common, giving S6 Berzerkers an abundance of efficient targets. The early DG launch is likely to push more T5 into the meta, with the same effect. It’s Chainaxe terminators that took a hit, a lightning claw is now way better. I’m not surprised to see FW selling out of World Eaters kits, Red Butchers look nuts right now
Not Online!!! wrote: did you clap wood when you called the LD non core?
Because now watch gw feth it up.
I'm hoping we won't need the LD aura. Give the Legions back their +1 LD on all Legionnaires compared to the Loyalist Dogs, hopefully with some other stat buffs. Make VOTLW something other than a strategem again.
I believe he meant the lord discordant aura...
Allbeit the NL -1 LD aura certainly is also a candidate for a looking at.. but GW's priorities lie atm with primaris and a minescule proportion necrons
Doh! I was actually thinking of the Dark Apostle's shared LD aura. My bad.
As far as the Night Lords aura is concerned, I'd expect it to go to -2 to match rievers. And since we're the definition of "terror troops" I'm hoping we get that obsec cancelling ability too. That would open up some possibilities....
Abaddon303 wrote: Yeh I'm really interested in the DG codex because I want to know what they are going to do with chainaxes. They are now objectively worse than chainswords and 1pt more expensive.
It should also give us an indication on daemon Engines status
Given what Space Wolves’ frost weapons have gone through, I expect bubotic axes and the like to default to regular power weapons
Chain axes are still fine, you don’t take them instead of Chainswords, you take them instead of pistols. The rollout of D2 anti-Astartes weaponry means that Gravis armour is going to become more common, giving S6 Berzerkers an abundance of efficient targets. The early DG launch is likely to push more T5 into the meta, with the same effect. It’s Chainaxe terminators that took a hit, a lightning claw is now way better. I’m not surprised to see FW selling out of World Eaters kits, Red Butchers look nuts right now
Yeh I was actually thinking that the +1 attack was better than the +1s. I think it is if you have only have 1 attack but the chainaxe becomes better with the more attacks you have so on berserkers it's a big change. I have a whole bunch of Chosen with Chainaxes that I thought I'd rather have the extra attack on.
I just did the maths and it turns out on a model with 2A the chainaxe is slightly better on the charge because of hateful assault but the chainsword is better in the second round of combat against all toughnesses. The differences are so infinitesimal tho so I think I'll stick with the chainaxes because they're blatantly cooler...
I need some help with something from the group. I have an ITC tournament coming up in early December and I am toying around with a few ideas for Alpha Legion plus a surprise guest.
So I can run Alpha Legion by themselves or Alpha plus a Desecrator Knight. I might even be able to do Alpha plus some Daemons as well.
Given the status of 9th and how Objectives are so important, which of those options sounds best?
You can run AL with a chaos knight, but it costs you 3CP, and you dont get detachment abilities for the knight. For objectives nurglings are the best. They can be set up anywhere which is more than 9" away from the enemy deployment zone, and enemy models. They are pretty hard to remove, and for 1 CP you can bring back slain models on 5+.
Reivax26 wrote: I need some help with something from the group. I have an ITC tournament coming up in early December and I am toying around with a few ideas for Alpha Legion plus a surprise guest.
So I can run Alpha Legion by themselves or Alpha plus a Desecrator Knight. I might even be able to do Alpha plus some Daemons as well.
Given the status of 9th and how Objectives are so important, which of those options sounds best?
Between those options definitely AL and daemons. Knights aren't in a great place atm. Too fragile and don't bring anything to a 9th edition list. Meanwhile alpha legion + daemons has at least put up a showing or two. And daemons are actually strong.. depending what models you have access to.
Lets say I run a Black Legion battalion, but I want an Emporer's Children jump pack lord as an AuX Detachment. Just the single model.
Personally, i would use an EC Patrol rather than the Aux Detachment. it cost the same 2 cp plus you can use noise marines for the troop tax.
5 noisemarines with a blasmaster is a very good unit IMO
In some of the YT battle reports I've watched, some of the armies have different Chaos mark icons in their armies, but there are no icons actually glued to the models. Would this be an acceptable thing to do in a match, such as saying that the icon is some kind of amulet? I really don't want to be sticking big icons on the top of my models.
Lets say I run a Black Legion battalion, but I want an Emporer's Children jump pack lord as an AuX Detachment. Just the single model.
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Personally, i would use an EC Patrol rather than the Aux Detachment. it cost the same 2 cp plus you can use noise marines for the troop tax.
5 noisemarines with a blasmaster is a very good unit IMO
True but in this list I'm not needing more firepower. That's the reason for having the EC Jump T Hammer Lord Rainment Repulsive with combat drugs, its strong enough and reliable enough to kill literally anything but Ghaz or Ctan in a single round. The rest of my list focuses around Abaddon/Sorcerer and 3x Terminators/ 3xHavocs. My troops hold points and little else. Though I might chop out 5 terminators for more troops.
ArcaneHorror wrote: In some of the YT battle reports I've watched, some of the armies have different Chaos mark icons in their armies, but there are no icons actually glued to the models. Would this be an acceptable thing to do in a match, such as saying that the icon is some kind of amulet? I really don't want to be sticking big icons on the top of my models.
Thats fine. I've never come across a player who would actually have a problem with that. Just note wargear on your list and share it as usual.
BillyN831 wrote: What are the top three units for Chaos Space Marines 9th edition? Thank you.
Mutilators, really hard to get off objectives, deepstrike, cheap, pretty solid all around
Warp Talons got a really big points change and their fast speed really makes them a solid choice for objective holding, and ignoring overwatch is bigger than you'd think
And finally Noctolith Crown. An absolute must take. You can give your cultist blobs (which you should be taking multiples of) a 5++, and your psykers can reroll. Mind you you'll have to sit in the your starting zone for most of the game around it, but that isnt a big deal in 9th.
BillyN831 wrote: What are the top three units for Chaos Space Marines 9th edition? Thank you.
Mutilators, really hard to get off objectives, deepstrike, cheap, pretty solid all around
Warp Talons got a really big points change and their fast speed really makes them a solid choice for objective holding, and ignoring overwatch is bigger than you'd think
And finally Noctolith Crown. An absolute must take. You can give your cultist blobs (which you should be taking multiples of) a 5++, and your psykers can reroll. Mind you you'll have to sit in the your starting zone for most of the game around it, but that isnt a big deal in 9th.
You are joking, right ? Warp Talons are 27 pts. for a T4 W1 model with 3+ sv, they die to a soft breeze. Mutilators are ok as objective campers, but they arent top three. The crown is nowhere near a top unit. To me top three are RCC havocs, JP sorcerer, Obliterators.
When Warp Talons get 2 wounds along with the rest of Chaos they are going to be damn good. Taking them now isn't entirely crazy. They move pretty fast and hiding them shouldn't be too hard.
I picked some up for my Alpha Legion a while back and was thinking about running them with a Khorne Daemon Prince up a flank with a Venomcrawler running point.
With Master of Diversion I could trick my opponent into deploying wrong and then use.it to capitalize on it.
BillyN831 wrote: What are the top three units for Chaos Space Marines 9th edition? Thank you.
Mutilators, really hard to get off objectives, deepstrike, cheap, pretty solid all around
Warp Talons got a really big points change and their fast speed really makes them a solid choice for objective holding, and ignoring overwatch is bigger than you'd think
And finally Noctolith Crown. An absolute must take. You can give your cultist blobs (which you should be taking multiples of) a 5++, and your psykers can reroll. Mind you you'll have to sit in the your starting zone for most of the game around it, but that isnt a big deal in 9th.
You are joking, right ? Warp Talons are 27 pts. for a T4 W1 model with 3+ sv, they die to a soft breeze. Mutilators are ok as objective campers, but they arent top three. The crown is nowhere near a top unit. To me top three are RCC havocs, JP sorcerer, Obliterators.
Dude, why must you behave Like a stereotype?
Of course it was a joke.. jeez
BillyN831 wrote: How viable are Chaos Space Marines as a troop choice now that cultists are up in points.
still more expensive then cultists, durability dependant upon weapon shot at them. Further the increase to w2 will probably also be a nerf because they will get more expensive...
Agreed, cultists are still better. If the difference was 10 pts for 2w csm then it would be a close call. But when that happens cost will go up putting them again around 30 pts more.
I bust mine out here and there. They don't do much work but are slightly more durable than cultists on a per model basis.
If you want to use them I would suggest going cheap. For example 5 with chainswords lurking is decent. 10 with chainswords or 2 HB and chainswords if you want to go full squad. The HB is worse than RCC but also cheaper and longer range.
A random question, but I was thinking of taking the cloak and back sprue of a Lord of Contagion and putting it on the back of a regular Chaos lord in terminator armor instead of using the cloak sprue that the terminator lord comes with. Is it a seamless fit, or will it require green stuff?
ArcaneHorror wrote: A random question, but I was thinking of taking the cloak and back sprue of a Lord of Contagion and putting it on the back of a regular Chaos lord in terminator armor instead of using the cloak sprue that the terminator lord comes with. Is it a seamless fit, or will it require green stuff?
ArcaneHorror wrote: A random question, but I was thinking of taking the cloak and back sprue of a Lord of Contagion and putting it on the back of a regular Chaos lord in terminator armor instead of using the cloak sprue that the terminator lord comes with. Is it a seamless fit, or will it require green stuff?
Lord contagion is ETB?
Then yes, assume greenstuffing...
lare2 wrote:Definite greenstuff and a lot of chopping. Shouldn't think it's impossible though, mind.
Ok, I'll probably make two lords then, both for my Iron Warriors. One will be made from the regular model with a chainfist (haven't made up my mind on what the ranged weapon will be). The other will be a LOC model with the Death Guard symbol cut off the top, with the giant axe being a stand-in for the Axe of the Forgemaster relic.
Obviously situational but it just struck me if you find your helbrute stuck in combat in your shooting phase you can use fire frenzy. Really useful if you survive a charge by your opponent as they will be expecting to fight first in your fight phase.
If you take the multi melta and heavy flamer on the fist that's some pretty nasty point blank shooting that could suprise an opponent...
Drop Pod Assault lets us finally get another good shot at a T1 charge. Bonus points for the Emperor's children that can set a charge roll die to 6.
EDIT: You cannot Warptime them out of the pod.
A Sorcerer + some Possessed or Berzerkers in a Dreadclaw is pretty fearsome.
Sorc + 9 Berzerkers (no upgrades) + Dreadclaw will run 358 points and the transport is no slouch in combat.
Alternatively, a Sorcerer + basic Chaos Marines w/ Chainswords and upgrades to taste + possibly a Lord or Aspring Champion in a Dreadclaw is worth considering. Once they go up to 2W, that's a fairly sticky threat that can be packaged neatly in a single Patrol. Bless them with Warptime and Delightful Agonies for a tarpit. My biggest concern would be the Sorcerer getting exposed.
Also RIP Inferno Predators. You were too hot for this world.
"Also please correct me if I'm wrong, but because the models inside are disembarking rather than coming in as reinforcements (assuming the rule gets FAQ'd to match the SM version of 9th ed Drop Pod Assault), we can Warptime them." - That's wrong, or at least if it's not currently (RAW) will be FAQ'd.
Automatically Appended Next Post: World eaters are huge beneficiaries of the new dreadclaw. Violent urgency and icons gives you mass 8" rerollable charges on the best CC unit in the game. 2 pods with 2x5 zerkers, 1x8 zerkers, an exalted champ and a chaos lord with violent urgency is terrifying. The size of the dreadclaw should make it pretty easy to benefit from the charge bonus... Until core changes arrive with a new codex, it also gets a crazy uptick of CC threat from the two HQs. That comes in at around 770pt and is a batallion...
I took some time this morning to prove myself wrong. Anything that comes in during the reinforcement step cannot make a normal move that turn so no Warptime (would be great if they explicitly confirm this in an FAQ).
I do think that Chosen will find their best home is with the Dreadclaw though. It's the best delivery system for their combi-weapons and 2W + Lightning Claws for 4 attacks when charging makes for a pretty nasty bomb.
I've been running chosen lately and my next list will be with 2x5 plasma chosen and 2x5 berzerks with a dreadclaw and the return of my leviathan! This release has actually been a huge upgrade for us. Previously unplayable options now slot in perfectly where I needed them.
What are people's thoughts on contemptors and leviathans now then?
I was planning a little overhaul of my dreadnought situation with 9th coming in and proving to be geared around midboard slugfests and no penalty to move and shoot heavy. Mixed use dreads seem far more viable than they were in 8th to the point i was toying with dusting off my monopose helbrute with fist and multimelta.
I was also thinking of magnetising my existing dual butcher contemptor so he could take a fist and picking up a second contemptor with multimelta and fist as that seemed quite a potent combo and i could share the weapons around between the two, even running double fist on occasion.
Obviously my plans are probably changing considering the nerf they have just received, however, the new points put a mm and fist contemptor at 155pts.
Comparing that to the helbrute with the same loadout you are paying 25pts (plus a cp) for S7, an extra wound and a 5++.
That suddenly doesn't seem so bad? I mean i appreciate that making comparisons with the uncompetitive helbrute isn't really proving anything but it does maybe show that GW have at least managed to bring some of the FW stuff more into line?
The leviathan I'm finding a little harder to make comparisons to where it sits now but the dual butcher cannon array i was running now sitting at 2/3s of the points it was means it's gonna be a lot easier to fit into lists here and there admittedly running at a lot lower effectiveness.
So do these guys still have some play? What do you think are likely to be the most effective loadouts going forward can i save them from the garbage pile by converting or picking up a couple of new arm options from FW?
I've been running contemptors and the update seems a little hateful on them considering I always want at least 2.
The cp investment really hurts plus loss of legion trait.
The leviathan otoh went from unplayable from my perspective to suddenly the best backfield camper we have access to. I'll be running dual storm cannons and volkite. I feel like its the missing piece I've been looking for since the price hike mostly invalidated them. Alternately I might consider a deredeo once we know more about it.
dominuschao wrote: I've been running contemptors and the update seems a little hateful on them considering I always want at least 2.
The cp investment really hurts plus loss of legion trait.
The leviathan otoh went from unplayable from my perspective to suddenly the best backfield camper we have access to. I'll be running dual storm cannons and volkite. I feel like its the missing piece I've been looking for since the price hike mostly invalidated them. Alternately I might consider a deredeo once we know more about it.
I suspect the legion trait part will be temporary, possibly signalling that helbrutes will end up with a 'dreadnought' tag in order to standardise a bunch of stuff. Though it wouldn't be the first time such a thing happened to screw over the rebels.
Or it might be a push for GW trying to diversify the armies a bit. Having both imperials and chaos both running the same units probably bugged them, as it meant people could play both armies without giving them twice the money. So maybe they're pushing chaos towards decimators et al.
lindsay40k wrote: Assuming a disembarkation FAQ, EC can drop twenty NMs in a Kharybdis, unleash furious riffs, and then throw the Kharybdis at the enemy's FACE
Throw in Daemon allies, and you can get a Fiend to force the victim unit to stay and take their punishment
Is this a thing again? How much does a KAC now cost?
I was doing KAC drops at the start of 8th before they increased the points. Terribly fun, the magma cutters were devastating.
lindsay40k wrote: Assuming a disembarkation FAQ, EC can drop twenty NMs in a Kharybdis, unleash furious riffs, and then throw the Kharybdis at the enemy's FACE
Throw in Daemon allies, and you can get a Fiend to force the victim unit to stay and take their punishment
Is this a thing again? How much does a KAC now cost?
I was doing KAC drops at the start of 8th before they increased the points. Terribly fun, the magma cutters were devastating.
400 PPM. It's a LOW now too, so add 3CP on to that for the SHAD.
A SHAD costs 3CP. A full detachment of 3-5 costs 6. That’s more efficient bang for your buck, and also threat overload.
I’m sad that I can’t Warptime my KAC into my opponent’s FACE and set fire to half their army before going full Fist Of Khorne on something, but being able to drop three in on the first turn, hit with fifteen frag or krak, and probably get one into CC seems very interesting
I’m waiting to see what auras become Core-locked before putting anything into the shopping list or hobby queue, but there’s some hilarious stuff to be done with charge manipulation and fall back denial right there
Automatically Appended Next Post: What do we think about the various FW Land Raiders, now?
All:
+ can now shoot in melee
+ can now outflank, if you’re shy and made of CP
Proteus:
+ replacing twin heavy bolters with MM or twin heavy Flamer is still great Warptime material
+ can gain 5++(!) if not trading 4 capacity for 12” reserves denial
+ 3 power cheaper is less than our (and loyalist!) Codex LR and suggests decent points reduction
/ havoc Launcher replaced with one-Shot HK missile
- pay 1CP
- lost Infernal Hunger
- combi-weapon can’t be a non-bolter
Achilles:
+ gimmicky Soulburner traded for meaty weapon that can fire as anti-horde artillery or melee-useable AT + either SIXTEEN D2, MW-generating shots, or EIGHT MM shots
+ 2 power cheaper suggests points reduction
+ native 5++
/ havoc Launcher replaced with one-Shot HK Missile
- lost Infernal Hunger
- combi-weapon can’t be a non-bolter
- lost 3W
Spartan:
+ laser destroyers have gone from garbage to viable, maybe superior alternative to quad lascannons
+ trading trade heavy bolters for twin heavy Flamer remains brilliant Warptime candidate
+ 1 power cheaper suggests modest points reduction
/ can take any Combi-weapon
/ havoc Launcher replaced with one-Shot HK missile
/ Crushing tracks is broadly an upgrade from infernal hunger, starts out with much more output but degrades much wors
- pay 1CP PLUS super heavy tax
The achiles looks really interesting. Think it's 320pts now, and it isn't relic so no -1cp tax.
That's not a lot more expensive than the regular landraider and the 12 24" S8 shots seem so much more appropriate for a heavy transport than 4 lascannons.
The 5++ makes it difficult to shift if you park it on an objective and sit a unit of 5 marines in it so even if it's destroyed you spill out obsec...
Abaddon303 wrote: The achiles looks really interesting. Think it's 320pts now, and it isn't relic so no -1cp tax.
That's not a lot more expensive than the regular landraider and the 12 24" S8 shots seem so much more appropriate for a heavy transport than 4 lascannons.
The 5++ makes it difficult to shift if you park it on an objective and sit a unit of 5 marines in it so even if it's destroyed you spill out obsec...
Oh wow, I missed the native 5++ and lack of martial legacy tax, assuming no errata that is sick
dominuschao wrote: I've been running contemptors and the update seems a little hateful on them considering I always want at least 2.
The cp investment really hurts plus loss of legion trait.
The leviathan otoh went from unplayable from my perspective to suddenly the best backfield camper we have access to. I'll be running dual storm cannons and volkite. I feel like its the missing piece I've been looking for since the price hike mostly invalidated them. Alternately I might consider a deredeo once we know more about it.
I suspect the legion trait part will be temporary, possibly signalling that helbrutes will end up with a 'dreadnought' tag in order to standardise a bunch of stuff. Though it wouldn't be the first time such a thing happened to screw over the rebels.
Or it might be a push for GW trying to diversify the armies a bit. Having both imperials and chaos both running the same units probably bugged them, as it meant people could play both armies without giving them twice the money. So maybe they're pushing chaos towards decimators et al.
I hope so and it makes sense. Also I retract my earlier statement now that I've seen full datasheets. The leviathan is just bad at backfield fire support. Time to bust out the deredeo again.
Depends on what you want them to do. They wont kill a anything and die to almost anything. They are a small unit that is easy to hide that can hold objectives for fairly cheap.
lindsay40k wrote: A SHAD costs 3CP. A full detachment of 3-5 costs 6. That’s more efficient bang for your buck, and also threat overload.
I’m sad that I can’t Warptime my KAC into my opponent’s FACE and set fire to half their army before going full Fist Of Khorne on something, but being able to drop three in on the first turn, hit with fifteen frag or krak, and probably get one into CC seems very interesting
I’m waiting to see what auras become Core-locked before putting anything into the shopping list or hobby queue, but there’s some hilarious stuff to be done with charge manipulation and fall back denial right there
At first glance, 400pts and 3CP sounds like too high a price.
Then again, I haven't played 9th and don't have the new Forgeworld book. So maybe there's something I don't know. There are things you can do with the KAC that are unique and might be better suited to 9th.
At the start of 8th, I used one in maybe 20 games. The KAC would DS alongside a Terminator Sorcerer, the occupants would disembark, then the KAC would charge.
It was very good at:
- Multicharging lines of Razorbacks / denying shooting. The base size allowed it to engage with a lot of targets at the same time and the funny shape of the model created a lot of issues with placement that worked to my advantage.
- Wrecking monsters and vehicles. The melta cutters were S16 and hit monsters / vehicles on 2+ with 2D6 damage. I was regularly taking out Carnifexes, Leman Russes, etc right in the middle of enemy lines.
- Tanking damage. The KAC is a massive distraction and opponents would pour a lot of shots into it. Everything else in my army was better for it being on the table.
For 9th, my guess is the ideal use would be dropping off units to contest objectives then becoming a dedicated tank hunter. A valid tactic could be dropping behind a building for cover and moving out to assault on turn 3. The effective threat range for movement plus charge is 24".
I run my CSM as 5-man with 2 meltas and just advance them up the board. Theyre cheap enough that i don't mind losing them and they still pack enough punch to do somehting,
I tried out an Alpha Legion +Despoiler list the other day against a Primaris heavy Dark Angels player. Called at the middle of 3 because he had lost so many points that it was starting to get sad.
Disco Lord of Khorne with Talisman
DP Slaanesh, Wings, Warptime
Terminator Sorcerer of Slaanesh Presience and Delightful Agonies
5 CSM 10 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
3 Obliterators
3 Obliterators
Venomcrawler
So I got 1st turn. One squad of Obliterators started on the board, other deep strike. The Disco Lord, Venomcrawler and DP moved up a flank, DP cast Warptime on the Disco Lord for a first turn charge. Contemptor died before he swung. The Obliterators that started on the board did the 9 inch movement strat before the game started. They moved out and with the help of Presience annihilated an Outrider squad and with the help of the Despoiler almost killed another Outrider squad.
It was my 1st time using the Knight or the Disco Lord and they are now auto includes in every list I will ever make.
Reivax26 wrote: I tried out an Alpha Legion +Despoiler list the other day against a Primaris heavy Dark Angels player. Called at the middle of 3 because he had lost so many points that it was starting to get sad.
Disco Lord of Khorne with Talisman
DP Slaanesh, Wings, Warptime
Terminator Sorcerer of Slaanesh Presience and Delightful Agonies
5 CSM 10 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
3 Obliterators
3 Obliterators
Venomcrawler
So I got 1st turn. One squad of Obliterators started on the board, other deep strike. The Disco Lord, Venomcrawler and DP moved up a flank, DP cast Warptime on the Disco Lord for a first turn charge. Contemptor died before he swung. The Obliterators that started on the board did the 9 inch movement strat before the game started. They moved out and with the help of Presience annihilated an Outrider squad and with the help of the Despoiler almost killed another Outrider squad.
It was my 1st time using the Knight or the Disco Lord and they are now auto includes in every list I will ever make.
Would you think that a Master of Possesions may be better for helping with your stuff? You have an awful lot of legion demons after all it seems.
I didn't see this covered in the OP, but could someone tell me how big of a mistake I'm making by painting my CSMs up as Alpha Legion, or what the rankings for the legions are for 9th in general? I'm definitely sticking with Alpha Legion, because I like their lore and their color scheme makes me feel happy when I look at it, but I want to know how bad my foot wound is now that I've shot myself good and proper.
Flipsiders wrote: I didn't see this covered in the OP, but could someone tell me how big of a mistake I'm making by painting my CSMs up as Alpha Legion, or what the rankings for the legions are for 9th in general? I'm definitely sticking with Alpha Legion, because I like their lore and their color scheme makes me feel happy when I look at it, but I want to know how bad my foot wound is now that I've shot myself good and proper.
As it happens, you posted this as we were discussing an Alpha Legion list that won on turn three, through plays that included the AL’s unique abilities. They’re definitely solid, they’re a rapid deployment/board control faction in an edition of board control, with access to some really nasty unit builds including a sniper lord (via the Faith & Fury supplement), multiple Warlords in a single game, and one of the better Legion traits.
Flipsiders wrote: I didn't see this covered in the OP, but could someone tell me how big of a mistake I'm making by painting my CSMs up as Alpha Legion, or what the rankings for the legions are for 9th in general? I'm definitely sticking with Alpha Legion, because I like their lore and their color scheme makes me feel happy when I look at it, but I want to know how bad my foot wound is now that I've shot myself good and proper.
as of right now, they are probably one of the best CSM legions, if not the best.
Simply no mark restrictions.
Probably the most versatile arsenal of traits and stratagems aswell as relics.
Reivax26 wrote: If Obliterators take the 9 inch move pregame and then move forward it's going to be difficult for a Master of Possessions powers to reach range wise.
Not really... Oblits would move 9+4 = 13, and MoP has a base 6, plus advance... even 1" = 7".... so you are always within 6", a decent advance roll and the oblits screen as a bonus (until they lose a model. You already have decent HQs, so is the MoP utility greater than any other HQs? And I'm not sure he can help the DP or the Disco, they unlike the Oblits move too fast.
On the alpha legion note the forgeworld legends is up and lord arkos is perfect now. A slight swap in my list and I'm up 2 cp for the same build and can now add +1 to adv and charge rolls for alpha legion units not just the faithless like before. If that wasn't enough he's now -1 to hit in combat too, still gives 1 cp as warlord and now gives out lord rerolls for only 30 pts over a comparable lord. Sold.
dominuschao wrote: On the alpha legion note the forgeworld legends is up and lord arkos is perfect now. A slight swap in my list and I'm up 2 cp for the same build and can now add +1 to adv and charge rolls for alpha legion units not just the faithless like before. If that wasn't enough he's now -1 to hit in combat too, still gives 1 cp as warlord and now gives out lord rerolls for only 30 pts over a comparable lord. Sold.
Looking for some advice - I've spent the last 18 months building and painting everything with the exception foot slogging HQ. (Have two disco lords and 2 daemon princes magnetised as that was easy enough...!)
But now - I'm looking at my Rhinos, my Termite Assault Drills and the Troops that are going into them and wondering.
What foot slogging HQ do I need & how should one equip them?
Basically I'm staring at the HQ list and wondering what the hell to buy, build and paint next. Even if its just.
Basic Lord, Axe & Pistol?
Master of Executions?
Get a Jumplord of Axe and...?
I don't really play (yet) but I'd like some future proofing builds in mind.
I like JP lord and JP sorcerer. Equipment is usually a bolt weapon, to be able to use daemon shells. Melee weapon is chainsword/chainaxe/powerfist. My favorite psychic powers are prescience, warptime, death hex.
Gerinako wrote: Looking for some advice - I've spent the last 18 months building and painting everything with the exception foot slogging HQ. (Have two disco lords and 2 daemon princes magnetised as that was easy enough...!)
But now - I'm looking at my Rhinos, my Termite Assault Drills and the Troops that are going into them and wondering.
What foot slogging HQ do I need & how should one equip them?
Basically I'm staring at the HQ list and wondering what the hell to buy, build and paint next. Even if its just.
Basic Lord, Axe & Pistol?
Master of Executions?
Get a Jumplord of Axe and...?
I don't really play (yet) but I'd like some future proofing builds in mind.
Thanks for any help anyone can give!
If you're looking to jump out of those transports and get into a scrap then you can't go wrong with an exalted champion. His reroll all wounds is a massive force multiplier and compliments the buffs your DPs and Lord Discordants give out. If you coordinate him jumping out of a transport at the same time your Daemon engines hit the enemy lines he can help them too.
He has no invulnerable so you're better keeping him at the back of any fights plus he only has BS3+ so probably not worth giving him anything more than his stock bolt pistol and chainsword. Maybe a power sword or chainaxe if you have the points as his rerolling wounds means he doesn't really need any more of a strength boost than +1
Hey friends, seeing the new Christmas box for chaos makes me interested in starting an Iron Warriors army. I’ve heard though chaos aren’t super amazing so I’m wondering if it’s worth getting?
I was thinking of a small 1K list out of it, something like:
HQ - Lord Discordant (Warlord) w/ Insidium, Iron Without
- Dark Apostle w/ Soultearer Portent
TROOPS
- 5x CSM (what heavy weapon should they have?)
- 5x CSM - 20x Cultists
ELITE
- 5x Terminators w/ Heavy Flamer
HEAVY SUPPORT
- 5x Havocs w/ 2x Las Cannons, 2x Missile Launchers
- Maulerfiend w/ Lasher Tedrils
I mean, its all down to preference on loadout for your lords, but maybe think about magnetising arms?
What is your intention for them? A jump pack lord can be fun with a fist or even a thunder hammer. A combi melta lets him blast something in the face before charging which i always think is super cool. If you just want them as a backfield buffer giving out rerolls then keep them as cheap as possible.
What legion are you running because you might want to think about giving them relics (a chainsword on a JP lord is good for Black Legion because of Ghorisvex's Teeth relic but would be a super dull and ineffective choice if not for the relic upgrade).
For me personally, i like building HQs, they're the flavour of the army. I also think keeping a lord stock is a little dull and would rather give him some neat equipment that looks cool on the model but that might not be super efficient.
Jump pack sorcerer probably keep default, force sword or force axe are both good, axe especially for cutting down S3 chaff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey friends, seeing the new Christmas box for chaos makes me interested in starting an Iron Warriors army. I’ve heard though chaos aren’t super amazing so I’m wondering if it’s worth getting?
I was thinking of a small 1K list out of it, something like:
HQ - Lord Discordant (Warlord) w/ Insidium, Iron Without
- Dark Apostle w/ Soultearer Portent
TROOPS
- 5x CSM (what heavy weapon should they have?)
- 5x CSM - 20x Cultists
ELITE
- 5x Terminators w/ Heavy Flamer
HEAVY SUPPORT
- 5x Havocs w/ 2x Las Cannons, 2x Missile Launchers
- Maulerfiend w/ Lasher Tedrils
I think the forgefiend is better this edition than the mauler, not sure about the heavy flamer on the termis, better just going with chainswords and combiweapons, maybe a fist or two of any flavour and combimelta is fun out of deepstrike.
for CSM i like a squad with a combimelta on the champ and a melta special, possibly chainsword and bolt pistol on rest.
On the other squad of CSM maybe go with a heavy bolter? or reaper chaincannon if you think you'll be moving up with them?
Generally, you are correct, CSM aren't in a great place but i'm confident that when the new codex drops they will be reasonably competitive. They are a versatile army so there is bound to be at least a couple of ways to run them that is effective. If nothing else, the extra wound for chaos marines is going to bring far more durability which will suddenly make you more willing to invest special/heavy weapons into the troop slots.
Havocs should be pretty horrible at 2 wounds, T5 and ignore heavy penalty and our terminators, who are already seeing more use in loyalist armies, have more versatile options and chainaxes mean they are cheaper and more effective in my opinion.
The battlebox is a decent selection of core starting CSM units I think they'll be useful regardless of what the new codex brings if that helps your choice?
Abaddon303 wrote: I mean, its all down to preference on loadout for your lords, but maybe think about magnetising arms?
What is your intention for them? A jump pack lord can be fun with a fist or even a thunder hammer. A combi melta lets him blast something in the face before charging which i always think is super cool. If you just want them as a backfield buffer giving out rerolls then keep them as cheap as possible.
What legion are you running because you might want to think about giving them relics (a chainsword on a JP lord is good for Black Legion because of Ghorisvex's Teeth relic but would be a super dull and ineffective choice if not for the relic upgrade).
For me personally, i like building HQs, they're the flavour of the army. I also think keeping a lord stock is a little dull and would rather give him some neat equipment that looks cool on the model but that might not be super efficient.
Jump pack sorcerer probably keep default, force sword or force axe are both good, axe especially for cutting down S3 chaff.
The preference (in my head at least) is to be jumping out of transports and unleashing damage/supporting the units its charging out with. Will generally be Berserkers but may be the occasion it's something else. E.g. Havocs with Termite Drill?
I've got a custom scheme so I can run them as anything to be honest (apart from Nurgle as they don't look like Nurgle!)
My first approach was to build the most common builds
Then if it turns out I'm entering a tournament in x months that needs a plasma build. I can quickly build and paint that equivalent.
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey friends, seeing the new Christmas box for chaos makes me interested in starting an Iron Warriors army. I’ve heard though chaos aren’t super amazing so I’m wondering if it’s worth getting?
I was thinking of a small 1K list out of it, something like:
HQ - Lord Discordant (Warlord) w/ Insidium, Iron Without
- Dark Apostle w/ Soultearer Portent
TROOPS
- 5x CSM (what heavy weapon should they have?)
- 5x CSM - 20x Cultists
ELITE
- 5x Terminators w/ Heavy Flamer
HEAVY SUPPORT
- 5x Havocs w/ 2x Las Cannons, 2x Missile Launchers
- Maulerfiend w/ Lasher Tedrils
CSM, baseline squads, do carry a HW quite decently, my preference was , until recently the AC, i made decent experience with the ML though and the Improved heavy bolter is actually now a bit better for an allrounder then the AC.
I'd personally not bother with the Heavy flamer though on the terminators, the reaper AC is just, well, better, i assume you intend to go chainaxe combi bolter on the terminators.
Havocs with lascannon aree decent, the ML can work aswell as above, preferentially you'd get a full squad but mixed squads nowadays work just aswell since everyone can split fire.
The maulerfiend is a bit hit and miss, as are most daemonengines, however since you intend to go melee with the lord discordant it seems like a good choice.
If you'd picked a lord instead of a DA i might 've suggested a forge fiend with twin Hades AC's.
Also since you have slots available and not the morale ignoring trait i'd split the cultist into MSU aka 2 x 10 instead of the 1 x 20. you'll need the CP for Votwl and cacophony as of right now anyways more then recycling a bunch of overpriced Guardsmen which exchanged their armor for wet cardboard and paid for the privilege.
Something I noticed in the new loyalist codex is that the flakk missile strat is now 2D3 mortal wounds. Might make taking a missile launcher a little more relevant if that comes to our codex too?
Abaddon303 wrote: Something I noticed in the new loyalist codex is that the flakk missile strat is now 2D3 mortal wounds. Might make taking a missile launcher a little more relevant if that comes to our codex too?
I'd asume it would also.
But considering it is still 1/ turn you don't get a plane down that way.
Still also doesn't solve the lack of Propper AA or a propper fighter (hellblade in plastic pretty please) to reliably take down something in the skies.
im a old player getting back into the game, and im looking for new army to start. I was orignally planning to go Custodes, but cannot really get much of them at the moment (the custodes guard boxes are almost always sold out, and its rather hard to start a army if the only troops choice isnt available). I've never really played any Chaos armies before, but im looking into them.
so, i'm in a bit of a tossup between a traditional black legion type CSM list and a Tsons army. i have a few questions about the CSM army:
I keep hearing that regular CSM are worse than cultists. can someone explain what exactly they mean by this? is it just the CSM are nothing special and cultists are a just cheaper troop tax option, or is something fundermentally wrong with the CSMs?
if are troop choices are indeed just a tax, what are the actual critical units that do all the work? Is it our characters, or our elite choices, or something else?
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey friends, seeing the new Christmas box for chaos makes me interested in starting an Iron Warriors army. I’ve heard though chaos aren’t super amazing so I’m wondering if it’s worth getting?
I was thinking of a small 1K list out of it, something like:
HQ - Lord Discordant (Warlord) w/ Insidium, Iron Without
- Dark Apostle w/ Soultearer Portent
TROOPS
- 5x CSM (what heavy weapon should they have?)
- 5x CSM - 20x Cultists
ELITE
- 5x Terminators w/ Heavy Flamer
HEAVY SUPPORT
- 5x Havocs w/ 2x Las Cannons, 2x Missile Launchers
- Maulerfiend w/ Lasher Tedrils
CSM, baseline squads, do carry a HW quite decently, my preference was , until recently the AC, i made decent experience with the ML though and the Improved heavy bolter is actually now a bit better for an allrounder then the AC.
I'd personally not bother with the Heavy flamer though on the terminators, the reaper AC is just, well, better, i assume you intend to go chainaxe combi bolter on the terminators.
Havocs with lascannon aree decent, the ML can work aswell as above, preferentially you'd get a full squad but mixed squads nowadays work just aswell since everyone can split fire.
The maulerfiend is a bit hit and miss, as are most daemonengines, however since you intend to go melee with the lord discordant it seems like a good choice.
If you'd picked a lord instead of a DA i might 've suggested a forge fiend with twin Hades AC's.
Also since you have slots available and not the morale ignoring trait i'd split the cultist into MSU aka 2 x 10 instead of the 1 x 20. you'll need the CP for Votwl and cacophony as of right now anyways more then recycling a bunch of overpriced Guardsmen which exchanged their armor for wet cardboard and paid for the privilege.
Thanks for the feedback. I was considering doing a Daemon Prince instead of the Lord Discordant but I’m unsure, that would definitely mean I should go with the Forgefiend instead I assume? Though it doesn’t seem super good, or am I missing something?
I’m thinking the Heavy Bolter or possibly the Reaper Chaincannon for the CSM?
With the Havocs, I split weapons only because that’s what they come with in the box and both weapons seem good for shooting at tanks.
With the Termies, I’m having trouble working out how to equip them. They only come with 1-2 of each option which is really hard to work with, I don’t have extra bits for Chaos.
Hey friends, seeing the new Christmas box for chaos makes me interested in starting an Iron Warriors army. I’ve heard though chaos aren’t super amazing so I’m wondering if it’s worth getting?
I was thinking of a small 1K list out of it, something like:
HQ - Lord Discordant (Warlord) w/ Insidium, Iron Without
- Dark Apostle w/ Soultearer Portent
TROOPS
- 5x CSM (what heavy weapon should they have?)
- 5x CSM - 20x Cultists
ELITE
- 5x Terminators w/ Heavy Flamer
HEAVY SUPPORT
- 5x Havocs w/ 2x Las Cannons, 2x Missile Launchers
- Maulerfiend w/ Lasher Tedrils
CSM, baseline squads, do carry a HW quite decently, my preference was , until recently the AC, i made decent experience with the ML though and the Improved heavy bolter is actually now a bit better for an allrounder then the AC.
I'd personally not bother with the Heavy flamer though on the terminators, the reaper AC is just, well, better, i assume you intend to go chainaxe combi bolter on the terminators.
Havocs with lascannon aree decent, the ML can work aswell as above, preferentially you'd get a full squad but mixed squads nowadays work just aswell since everyone can split fire.
The maulerfiend is a bit hit and miss, as are most daemonengines, however since you intend to go melee with the lord discordant it seems like a good choice.
If you'd picked a lord instead of a DA i might 've suggested a forge fiend with twin Hades AC's.
Also since you have slots available and not the morale ignoring trait i'd split the cultist into MSU aka 2 x 10 instead of the 1 x 20. you'll need the CP for Votwl and cacophony as of right now anyways more then recycling a bunch of overpriced Guardsmen which exchanged their armor for wet cardboard and paid for the privilege.
Thanks for the feedback. I was considering doing a Daemon Prince instead of the Lord Discordant but I’m unsure, that would definitely mean I should go with the Forgefiend instead I assume? Though it doesn’t seem super good, or am I missing something?
I’m thinking the Heavy Bolter or possibly the Reaper Chaincannon for the CSM?
With the Havocs, I split weapons only because that’s what they come with in the box and both weapons seem good for shooting at tanks.
With the Termies, I’m having trouble working out how to equip them. They only come with 1-2 of each option which is really hard to work with, I don’t have extra bits for Chaos.
The first issue is, a mauler needs to get to melee, a forgefiend doesn't need to walk all that much. And whilest the smaller boards indeed improve chances of a charge the lack of the Soulforged stratagem to advance and charge for a daemonengine makes it very much a bit iffy. Both are atm a bit more on the meh side overall, allbeit the forgefiend is due to 40k still favouring dakka above chopping overall the as of now better option.
Reaper chaincannon might be a bit short but certainly an option, the other squad could get an AC or Heavy bolter. Seems like a decent investment regardless.
so you have no other bits , good to know.
As for the terminators: Same issue, however you have a solution: Behold the chainsword Terminators. AKA count as chainaxe fellows:
Spoiler:
Basically every chaos player in existence knows about the really bad choices provided for the chaos terminators (or CSM for that matter) Hence why nobody really get's annoyed if you do some kitbashing aka use the new CSM chainswords with some powerfist /claw arms to combine them into cutlass toting Chaos terminators.
Don't mind the lackluster painting skills of mine.
Regardless if you go reaper or heavy flamer you have enough combi bolters then.
As an aside, you get more then enough combi weapon bits which can with a bit of ingenuity be used as combi weapons for csm, I think about 2 of each variant so more then enough to maybee hand out a combi weapon for a champion, which in turn would free up a bolter for the Havoc champion to make him into an ablative wound.
im a old player getting back into the game, and im looking for new army to start. I was orignally planning to go Custodes, but cannot really get much of them at the moment (the custodes guard boxes are almost always sold out, and its rather hard to start a army if the only troops choice isnt available). I've never really played any Chaos armies before, but im looking into them.
so, i'm in a bit of a tossup between a traditional black legion type CSM list and a Tsons army. i have a few questions about the CSM army:
I keep hearing that regular CSM are worse than cultists. can someone explain what exactly they mean by this? is it just the CSM are nothing special and cultists are a just cheaper troop tax option, or is something fundermentally wrong with the CSMs?
if are troop choices are indeed just a tax, what are the actual critical units that do all the work? Is it our characters, or our elite choices, or something else?
Both units are troop taxes, one is massively cheaper, the other may overall beat out if you invest into them.
The heavy lifting is done via combo pieces, often obliterators, or any other high damage unit really, that get's buffstacked.
HQ are in most cases beatstick capable, especially the discordant and DP aswell as jump lord certainly go in that direction.
Sorcerers are something in between buff bots and debuff fellows.
@Not Online, that makes sense, the Forgefiend it is then, as perhaps I can walk him up alongside the Discordant to get the +1 to hit the whole time the Lord wonders up to get into melee?
Man, I kinda want to wait and see if I like the new 9th Ed book before I get this little force, but I need to buy it before Christmas (as it’s the Christmas bundle box), and the chaos codex won’t be out until next year some time! This hurts me haha.
Tiberius501 wrote: @Not Online, that makes sense, the Forgefiend it is then, as perhaps I can walk him up alongside the Discordant to get the +1 to hit the whole time the Lord wonders up to get into melee?
Man, I kinda want to wait and see if I like the new 9th Ed book before I get this little force, but I need to buy it before Christmas (as it’s the Christmas bundle box), and the chaos codex won’t be out until next year some time! This hurts me haha.
Under us, you can allways buy the box as a discount and wait with building.
Chances are that GW over or undertunes stuff in it quite decently, so whilest i hate it, i'd reccomend to start out to buy it if only to take advantage of the discount and bit's it will offer along the line and wait with building it if you really want to rely on comp.
The truth is however, sooner or later everything will change around, so personally , since you intend to go iron warrior i'd simply not care and go with a build you like the idea of fluff wise instead. Be that Daemonengine heavy assault IW formations or a siege formation relying upon artillery and long range destruction, or a slave army.
Because if the theme fits, for the most part you'll still have an army that you like to field even if it may end up sub optimal.
Yep that’s all very true. I am very tempted, Iron Warriors and their siege specialism fluff has always been cool to me, I like their hatred for daemons and their disgust in the Imperium equally.
I’ll have to see how much the box costs, but if it’s a good discount I’ll most likely take the plunge.
Do you think the list above would hold up well enough against most things? I don’t play competitively for the most part, we do seem to play with somewhat competent lists though. That’s if I build it before their new book, anyway. I may get a little impatient haha.
Well you got beatstick, with synergy if you go mauler.
You got the DA made out of the lord presumably, which can help you with keeping stuff alive or making stuff hit.
You got AT. Mark and cacophony are required there.
You got anti inf with the terminators.
No it should serve you well as a small force / basis for something bigger. And it would be quite fitting for further expansion into all the IW playstyles so if you really like it and want to play IW i'd go ahead and pull the trigger.
Vindicators. I noticed the loyalists get a 2+ save now for an extra 10pts. Not really seen any talk about it, admittedly they've got loads of things to play with. But, presuming we get the same treatment, 140pts for a T8 2+ save tank seems pretty good to sit on an objective. That'll take some decent firepower to shift.
Or are they still crap?
Hi all, I´d like some input on something if you please. I´m trying to build an AL list with a Knight on Infernal Quest maximizing points on secondaries. (Reason being I increasingly notice you can´t guarantee VP for killing stuff, so lets try to build to ignore your opponent concerning VP if possible) The basic strategy I´d like to try is this:
If the scenario has 5 objectives I pick Domination. I.e. Knight walks up and parks on a midboard objective whilst the rest of the list captures the second.
Psychic Ritual. T1 a Sorcerer (or Advancing MoP) Jumps up to within 6" of the the center. He stays there surrounded by something undecided yet to just let him chant away.
Deploy Scramblers with Cultists + Raptors
That´d be 15+15+10 on 2ndaries if successful.
The crux is building a list that holds the center plus another objective, protects the back field and yet doesn´t get shot down despite not really being interested in walking into opponents half of the board. What I want to do is chase away the opponent, yet not being shot dead if they don´t come near.
Current planning is something like:
Infernal Quest Knight (hard to shift objective holder)
Some Lord (DP, Disco or Termie)
Psyker
2 x Cultists (1 for holding backfield Objective and another to Scramble)
Helbrute(s?) Twin Las/Fist as backfield protector, counter charger and Fire Frenzy
Raptors (obviously)
Obliterators/Havocs (ranged punch if they don´t come near.)
Something to hold objective 2 and protect Ritual Psyker. Possessed/Maulerfiends/Rhino....?
Does my ramblings make sense and do you have any idea how to put it together?
Doh! I was actually thinking of the Dark Apostle's shared 
