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RIP havocs not having access to multimeltas. 8 multi meltas poping out of a Terrax dropping 24 melta shots will annihilate just about anything.

These changes are gonna mean that multi damage weapons in general are gonna be much more efficient. Might see more horde lists as people start doubleing down on stuff to remove Heavy infantry

 blackmage wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
consider a thing anyway...you will see more 2D weapons around, just one the heavy bolter now will have damage2...so...

True, but in the case of the heavy bolter I hear it's going from 3 shots down to 1 shot. This may be the case for all weapons that are getting a damage increase

doubt heavy bolter will be heavy1 but we will see

Unless it stays heavy 3, Autocannons are better for the price

Im thinking for sure they gonna be H3. They are straight up inferior to autocannons otherwise.

Autocannons higher S and long range
HBolter: moderate S moderate range
Reaper: More shots high S high range
ChainC More Shots

Everythings gotta hvae pros and cons.

HBolter at 1 shot means they hvae no advantage over any of the other weapons. including Missile launchers and LasCannons.

But hey Its GDUbbs

 Leth wrote:
I cant wait to see what happens to my Noise marines. I really miss playing them, especially with all the money I spent on conversions(even got kakaphoni for squad leaders)

Pray to Slaanesh that Emperor's Children get a book before CSM get a book.

I know it won't happen, but it's be nice to get the full range of Emperor's Children unique units out so that the CSM Codex entry can have the proper Noise Marine squad, much like it has the proper Plague Marine squad in there now.

This goes for World Eaters as well.

 Dr.Duck wrote:
8 multi meltas poping out of a Terrax dropping 24 melta shots will annihilate just about anything.

What squad can get 8 MMs?

 Dr.Duck wrote:
8 multi meltas poping out of a Terrax dropping 24 melta shots will annihilate just about anything.

What squad can get 8 MMs?

That's a lotta eggs in one basket. High risk of getting scrambled.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's a lotta eggs in one basket. High risk of getting scrambled.

Meh its about as massive as you can make an alpha. Theres almost nothing you cant kill with that. Just make sure you position so they cant retaliate as effectively.

Options like that, I suppose, make us all very glad that things coming in from reserve don't scatter anymore.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Options like that, I suppose, make us all very glad that things coming in from reserve don't scatter anymore.

Glad? Yeah no Hard disagree, if you ever were on the reciving end of suicide terminators, then you can pretty much picture where this is going.

And even if we have also acess to some of these shenanigans, that doesn't make them existing good for the game imo...

Can we talk about 2 wound CSM?

We suddenly have this list of units that are very, very good, maybe better than their Imperial counterparts.

- Terminators (esp Blightlord)
- Plague Marines (flails and axes)
- Havocs (T5 2W 4 ACs and move and shoot)
- Chosen (5 man squads with 4 special weapons)
- CSM (10 man, 2 chaincannons)
- Possessed (20 man squad becomes wrecking ball)
- Berzerkers (5 man squads can now get into combat)

The main thing they were missing was staying power. It just doubled, and I can think of many combinations of auras / spells / stratagems that make small MSU squads nasty.

With 2 wound CSM, how would this affect your list design?

 techsoldaten wrote:
Can we talk about 2 wound CSM?

We suddenly have this list of units that are very, very good, maybe better than their Imperial counterparts.

- Terminators (esp Blightlord)
- Plague Marines (flails and axes)
- Havocs (T5 2W 4 ACs and move and shoot)
- Chosen (5 man squads with 4 special weapons)
- CSM (10 man, 2 chaincannons)
- Possessed (20 man squad becomes wrecking ball)
- Berzerkers (5 man squads can now get into combat)

The main thing they were missing was staying power. It just doubled, and I can think of many combinations of auras / spells / stratagems that make small MSU squads nasty.

With 2 wound CSM, how would this affect your list design?

Raptors are looking very good now. -1 ap on their chainswords, ability to take 3 meltas, and can be given a strength bonus depending on what legion you are? Theyre real nasty now because they can easily walk right up to a tank, melt it and then charge and eat whatevers in the transport.

Terminators will now be very hard to shift, and regular CSM as well will be the mainstay of armies again, because a 5 man squad can have 2 specials or a heavy and a special making them great at sitting back and holding objectives. We will be very small armies though, at a 20% increase to our basic troop cost (excluding cultists) there wont be alot of room for extra stuff if you go infantry heavy.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Can we talk about 2 wound CSM?

We suddenly have this list of units that are very, very good, maybe better than their Imperial counterparts.

- Terminators (esp Blightlord)
- Plague Marines (flails and axes)
- Havocs (T5 2W 4 ACs and move and shoot)
- Chosen (5 man squads with 4 special weapons)
- CSM (10 man, 2 chaincannons)
- Possessed (20 man squad becomes wrecking ball)
- Berzerkers (5 man squads can now get into combat)

The main thing they were missing was staying power. It just doubled, and I can think of many combinations of auras / spells / stratagems that make small MSU squads nasty.

With 2 wound CSM, how would this affect your list design?

I can see terminators making a comeback in a lot of lists. Possessed bomb took a hit in 9th but is still doable, will have to see when the codex drops if they'll still be worth it compared to the buffed berzerkers. Though I still think bikes are preferable to raptors.

My list is going to basically stay the same (Black Legion infantry "hordes"), except it will actually be good now (maybe?)

Not Online!!! wrote:
We only will recive that when we are in line for a dex tho, and if i were a betting man, i'd say out stratagems won't survive in this state when we are in line to get one...

Some are more equal it seems....

They said this in the article:

Now, we know that LOTS of armies use these weapons, whether supplied by the Tech-Adepts of Mars or perhaps even “acquired” through less Imperium-friendly means to turn on their former masters. In any case, when Codex: Space Marines arrives in October, every other unit that utilises the same wargear – regardless of Faction – will get their weapon profiles upgraded accordingly.

So no, you'll be getting quite a bit at the same time the loyal marines get it.

I am excited to use proper CSM again. Have to see the costs though. No point if they cost us up to the sky. CSM don't have the layers and layers of rules that Marines have. So, if they cost us the same as Marines, I think we will remain at a disadvantage to regular marine armies. We will have an edge against xenos armies though. Except if this change goes through, will any xenos army still be around ? (Other than maybe necrons?). The rest will just shelf their armies until they get their codex.

Primaris will still be better than regular marines. But we do have our cult troops. Berserkers just got their durability doubled. And Plague Marines are going to be just nasty now. Terminators may actually be good now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am not sure if possessed will become 3W. We know for sure Termis become 3W, not not necessarily possessed. I hope Melta guns will also get a buff (they probably will) because CSM mostly can only use melta guns rather than multi meltas. This feels like a sea change though. All weapons, stats of tons of models (both CSM and space marine factions) all getting adjusted. The change will substantially buff all space marine factions. If they don't adjust xenos as well, nobody will want to play xenos.

Melta is getting buffed, but don't forget, overcharged plasma are now really good against 2W models compared to regular bolter shots. Regular bolters are now substantially worse except against hordes. And hordes are now truly 1W models, like cultists or guardsmen.

Lethality of shooting is still present in 9th ed. Even if they double the wounds on a CSM squad, if the opponent dedicates shooting into it, it will still die. Its not going to suddenly be able to tank a whole round of shooting. Main difference is that now instead of losing three to four squads per turn, maybe we just lose one to two. While is definitely a big improvement. Of course, if all the points are adjusted up substantially, its the same really. Because if a fully kitted out 10 man squad costs over 200 points, then losing two such squads means losing a fair chunk of your army. Think it will still be a buff overall though. Its not like they will double the point cost of a CSM model just for our +1W.

The worst hit are the 1W weapons with no AP. So boltguns and lasguns. Actually, boltguns will feel like lasguns now. Someone do the math, but how many boltgun shots are you going to need to take down a squad of 5 marines? We don't have any AP on our boltguns and we don't have doctrines to make them -1 or -2 AP. Seems like it will take forever now to kill a 2W infantry squad with zero AP bolter fire.

Bolters were already pretty weak for us as noted. Specials with Chainswords for me. Especially if somehow that CS buff gets through the F Chaos update screener.

I just know they're going to forget Havocs...

I can't get that particular piece of pessimism out of my head.

no ap weapons are garbage going forward. Only thing they are good for is vs horde armies/squads, and maybe adding 1 or 2 wounds to a normal/elite infantry squad.

Mmm.

What this will mean is an even more 2W-rich environment. We won’t see that much benefit of our extra wounds in gunfights, because any serious list will be built for that.

Our own multi damage weapons become significantly better. Heavy Bolter as a dedicated anti-MEQ weapon is cool.

Our big stuff will also take more chip damage. And, if drop pods don’t get revised rules and we don’t get an auspex equivalent, pretty much anything big dies T1 to sixteen Melta shots.

The disruption to our game plan goes way beyond ‘yay, our Heretacs and zerks last a bit longer’.

Autocannons will become even more prevalent.
Alllready plenty nice to roll over some primaris attempting to camp with them.

Also now i don't feel nearly as silly building a csm squad with 2 of the awesome heavy bolters of the havocs.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Mmm.

What this will mean is an even more 2W-rich environment. We won’t see that much benefit of our extra wounds in gunfights, because any serious list will be built for that.

Our own multi damage weapons become significantly better. Heavy Bolter as a dedicated anti-MEQ weapon is cool.

Our big stuff will also take more chip damage. And, if drop pods don’t get revised rules and we don’t get an auspex equivalent, pretty much anything big dies T1 to sixteen Melta shots.

The disruption to our game plan goes way beyond ‘yay, our Heretacs and zerks last a bit longer’.

Yeah... add to that a lot of games will only go 5 turns.

That's not a lot of opportunity for an opponent to blast 2W models off the table. Either your list is geared for it or it's not.

Chaos may have one of the best combos in the game with deep striking 2x 5-man Melta Chosen in an Assault Drill, 3x Obilterators and a squad of Blightlord Terminators. The shock value of this assortment popping up in your back lines would be devastating on most armies, it's a powerful front that can't be easily pierced.

Starting to think the best competitive lists will be CSM + Death Guard.

Seems like screening will become important again.

Chain swords getting -1 AP on top of getting an extra wound is pretty sweet for regular marines.
A horde of 20 is now 40 wounds and can be 4 attacks per on the charge with full rerolls (assuming stratagems at least)
With 40 wounds you might even last through a turn to capture an objective and they can benefit from just about any buff you want.

Been looking at strategic reserves abit. Actually, it just occured to me that our obsec troops are pretty decent for coming in from strategic reserves.

Consider a 5 man squad of emperor's children CSM. Sergeant has combi melta, and the squad has another melta gun.

Turn 2 or 3, you can come in from the flank, use cacophony to shoot 4 melta shots into a vehicle or a monster, and then charge while using that strategem to give you a super high chance of making it into combat. If its a vehicle in the backfield, you can either severely injure it, kills it, or at least charge in and tag it. And your obsec will mean you take that objective away from your opponent unless he also has obsec on his back objective.

If we use World eaters, berserkers become obsec. Same thing just less certainty. Give them Icon of wrath, put them in strategic reserves along with a warlord with that warlord trait that adds +1 to charge. Now you have a
8 inch rerollable charge from zerkers when you appear from strategic reserves. I am not sure if there is any better way for world eaters to get a +1 or +2 on the charge. If there is, please share.

Khorne bloodletter bomb still works too. Thats a 3d6 pick the best two dice charge on 8 inches.

So, we can combine world eaters, Khorne daemons, and Emperor's children to get multiple charges with a fairly good chance of getting in, all from reserves. So, we don't even need to move up, just keep having units coming out of reserves and charging on turn 2 and turn 3.

Maybe we can have the rest of the army be shooty from the Emperor's children faction. While we rely on the charging elements to take the mid and back field objectives. What do you think ?

So, something like Emperor's children patrol with 2 chain cannon havocs squads and noise marines to clear the chaff. Then turn 2 and 3, zerkers, Bloodletters, and a Emperor's children termi squad or melta squad will drop in and charge into combat onto the objectives. An emperor's children flying DP with elixor and warptime and a World eaters flying DP with talisman of blood (give advance and charge) can hide turn 1, and then both charge in turn 2 for added support.

if anyone notice that I didn't talk about vehicles, its because the idea is to use melee to tag the vehicles and then punch them to bits.

 Leth wrote:
I cant wait to see what happens to my Noise marines. I really miss playing them, especially with all the money I spent on conversions(even got kakaphoni for squad leaders)

Umm... why wait?

Noise Marines are currently one of the best troops options in the entire game. Off hand I can only think of one other troops choice that is anywhere near as powerful, and thats not even including all the nuts buffs you can give the noisy bois.

Them going to 2W just makes them broken, not good. They're already great.

What makes noise marines playable? To me the only thing they have going for them is the 4CP Uber combo of prescience, VotLW, S5 D2 double shooting. Which is, admittedly, really really scary.

After fiddling around with different lists, the one I arrived at based on my post above has no daemons in it. Its just a WE battalion and Emperor's children patrol.

So, zerker squads in reserve with icon of wrath plus a jump pack warlord that has the Violent Urgency warlord trait and a relic Demon weapon. So now my zerkers get a 8 inc charge rerollable when they come in. Plus There is a WE flying DP with tasliman of blood. It will hide turn 1, and advance plus charge turn 2 to join the fun.

Emperor's children has a 10 man noise marine squad with full sonic blastors and double blast masters. Plus 2 havoc squads with 4 reaper chain cannons, led by a flying DP with warptime. The DP will provide rerolls to the Havocs with cacophony on turn 1, and turn 2, when my stuff comes in from reserve, it will use warptime to zoom up the board and join the fun.

There are also two Emperor's Children terminator sqads with all combi bolters and power fists.

So, I will drop the Termi squads on turn 2 and 3, so that I can use the Emp Children strategem both turns as it turns one of their charge die into a 6. And then zerkers have the option to come in turn 2, or 3, or both.

The rest of the shooting is all to clear chaff and space so that my stuff got more options when they do come in from reserve. I will punch vehicles to bits with my melee rather than shooting them. So based on this, I can put on lots of pressure on both turn 2 and 3 on both midboard and even back objectives. What do you all think? Am I missing something important?

What's your opinions on load outs for basic CSM Aspiring Champions these days?

 l0k1 wrote:
What's your opinions on load outs for basic CSM Aspiring Champions these days?

Combibolters for cheap squad, if melee i prefered the power Axe.
Combi plas isn't Bad but a bit low on saturation makes it a bit of an wasted imo.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
What's your opinions on load outs for basic CSM Aspiring Champions these days?

Combibolters for cheap squad, if melee i prefered the power Axe.
Combi plas isn't Bad but a bit low on saturation makes it a bit of an wasted imo.

I was kinda thinking Combi Plasma/Power Axe. Combi Bolter/Chain Axe for cheap.