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Gadzilla666 wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Also on the topic of terminators, I've read that a squad of double lightning claws is best for World Eaters/Khorne melee terminators. Is this true, or is there a better loadout? What do you all use for your terminators' weapons, regardless of legion/warband? I just bought a box yesterday.

Night Lords: combi-plasma + chainaxes, "Prey On The Weak", overcharge, hitting anything LD8 or less on 2s, watch Loyalist Scum burn. Add an Icon of Vengeance and it works on anything LD 9 or less, good against Gulliman's Big Blue Boy Scouts.

I might try this, mixing in the vengeance icon sometimes for the wrath icon for better charges and the Khorne mark for the fight again stratagem.

dominuschao wrote:The NL combo is solid although now they still want a lord unfortunately.

My terminator unit size varies from 5-10 all cbplas and then mostly chainaxes except for 2 chainfists one on the champ. Basically never deviate from this setup. Around 10 models I'll add a 3rd chainfist.

I was thinking of going with fists as well, and with the new points, chainfists are now as good if not better than power fists. I'm always worried about heavily investing in fists and hammers due to the minus one to hit and the subsequent inability to use DTTFE.

Eldenfirefly wrote:I am starting to think that if we want to stick to CSM but not deathguard, then we should go for killy. I was trying to many ways to make my CSM more resilient, and then I looked at the deathguard and they can do it so much more easily that if thats your concern, then just go deathguard.

But in going killy, the issue is then we become glass cannons... Kind of like the berserker squad issue. A berserker squad that gets it charge in will delete whatever it charges (mostly). But in turn, it doesnt take much to wipe that squad out. lol

So, we can have havocs with cacophony, thats double the killing power, but again, havocs are glass cannons.

The only way we can sort of mitigate that to a certain extend is to go daemon engine army. But, in actual fact, deathguard does that even better than CSM. So... sigh... I don't know. Maybe it would be fun to just go world eaters, give up trying to be resilient and just go for killy.

Plague Marines in general can be good for holding objectives, though ones outside DG don't get all of the associated stratagems, relics, and support units. Still, having a few units backed up by sorcerers and a prince casting warptime to move them up and miasma of pestilence to protect them can be quite good. PM backed by the disco lord-buffed daemon engines and possibly contemptor dreadnoughts is a good way to both hold objectives and go on the full offensive.

In terms of World Eaters, there was a recently a match where a melee-heavy WE army beat an Admech decisively, holding most of the objectives and cutting the enemy to pieces, so WE are definitely valid in the new meta:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCPMlvlFtw0

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I am starting to think that if we want to stick to CSM but not deathguard, then we should go for killy. I was trying to many ways to make my CSM more resilient, and then I looked at the deathguard and they can do it so much more easily that if thats your concern, then just go deathguard.

But in going killy, the issue is then we become glass cannons... Kind of like the berserker squad issue. A berserker squad that gets it charge in will delete whatever it charges (mostly). But in turn, it doesnt take much to wipe that squad out. lol

So, we can have havocs with cacophony, thats double the killing power, but again, havocs are glass cannons.

The only way we can sort of mitigate that to a certain extend is to go daemon engine army. But, in actual fact, deathguard does that even better than CSM. So... sigh... I don't know. Maybe it would be fun to just go world eaters, give up trying to be resilient and just go for killy.

I think we've always been a glass cannon army, i hoped that the -1 dark apostle chant might help that, then the new cover rules but nothing really seems to keep CSM alive. I think you're right going for killy rather than resilient, especially for our actual marine based units. I don't think Worldeaters are the best option to maximise damage output tho. I'd argue there are unfortunately better legions to run berserkers in. The bile faction is interesting for them, S7 chainaxes and 7" move and gives you access to the advance and charge with +1 strat. Thats a threat range of 9+3D6 inches.

You are also tied to khorne with worldeaters so no endless cacophany. I try to plan my lists to leverage as much as i can out of that strat for at least the first three turns. My go to phasing is a big unit of bikes turn one to delete screens, obliterators turn two and terminators turn three means you are dropping the strat on a fresh and powerful unit every turn means you can almost guarentee deleting 6 of your opponents key units.

Took 3 world eaters contemptors with:

Dual cc weapons and dual ectoplasma blasters

Against white scars. They were absolute beasts.

Ha I was gonna ask about WE contemptors. I'm thinking of three with twin lascannons and I'm debating what chars to run with them? Maybe just a naked lord? Sorcerer is out because fluff

 Latro_ wrote:
Ha I was gonna ask about WE contemptors. I'm thinking of three with twin lascannons and I'm debating what chars to run with them? Maybe just a naked lord? Sorcerer is out because fluff

A Dark Apostle is a good substitute for a sorcerer.

weaver9 wrote:
Took 3 world eaters contemptors with:

Dual cc weapons and dual ectoplasma blasters

Against white scars. They were absolute beasts.

I always run ectoplasma blasters on my double chainclaw Contemptor. He wrecks face. He's racked up a few knight kills over the years. I miss being able to reliably get charges with him after dropping him in a dreadclaw though. They need some equivalent of Fleet back.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Ha I was gonna ask about WE contemptors. I'm thinking of three with twin lascannons and I'm debating what chars to run with them? Maybe just a naked lord? Sorcerer is out because fluff

A Dark Apostle is a good substitute for a sorcerer.

It's a bit more restricted, as he can only do 1 thing instead of the normal 2 but he is cheaper and more reliable.
Granted he can grant no movement buffs.

What can a DA do for 3 lascannon contemptors?
They're not looking to be in CC and his 5+ inv aura is pointless because they already have one.

 Latro_ wrote:
What can a DA do for 3 lascannon contemptors?
They're not looking to be in CC and his 5+ inv aura is pointless because they already have one.

+1 to hit.
-1 to hit against them, a tool that might be worth it overall for WE armies, because glass cannon get's 1/6 more durability through it.

It's also a lot more flexible due to you beeing able to choose.

The invul prayer is a nice tool when you want to make cultists work, but that is more AL, (consider then a cult leader warlord trait and watch cultists become really really annoying) or when you intend to run a assault gun list.

Yeah, I'd go with Benediction of Darkness for the -1 to be hit. It helps a lot with survivability. Unfortunately you can only do it to one unit at a time. The +1 to hit is only useful on a Contemptor if it's been bracketed.

Yea i guess, thats only on one of them though for both prayers and i'm gonna run 3.

They are bs2 will have a lord nearby so +1 to hit very situational (e.g. when a -1 to hit is in effect, which i guess is more likley with new cover rules but not so much for their targets which prob wont get hat buff for cover - knights etc)

Whack the minus one to hit on one of them, opponent will just target one of the others

edit: oh year forgot their BS goes down, hmmm

 Latro_ wrote:
Yea i guess, thats only on one of them though for both prayers and i'm gonna run 3.

They are bs2 will have a lord nearby so +1 to hit very situational (e.g. when a -1 to hit is in effect, which i guess is more likley with new cover rules but not so much for their targets which prob wont get hat buff for cover - knights etc)

Whack the minus one to hit on one of them, opponent will just target one of the others

edit: oh year forgot their BS goes down, hmmm

maybee you'd be interested in an assault gun list? 3 vindicators are a lot of t 8 rounds and granting them a 5++ actually is quite annoying.

weaver9 wrote:
Took 3 world eaters contemptors with:

Dual cc weapons and dual ectoplasma blasters

Against white scars. They were absolute beasts.

How bad were the mortal wounds from the ecto? That's my main concern with this weapon.

Sigh, just came back from a game where I essentially got tabled on turn 3 by my terrible dice rolling. It was still fun though. Its just that facing a terribly shooty army (admech+guard) while having bad dice rolls is just not going to turn out well.

Abaddon became failbaddon, when he failed a turn two 4 inch charge into a huge squad of Bullgrynn and I rerolled that charge, and he still failed... orzzz. He did redeem himself in turn turn 3 by charging that squad again, and this time making the charge, and since my sorceror had used deathhex to remove the 3++ invul from the bullgrynn, Abaddon did the business and single handedly wiped out 7 Bullgrynns all by himself on that charge.

After thinking back though, I really need to ask this question. The Canticle Shroudspalm says:

"Affected units gain the bonus to their saving throw as if they were in cover. Units already in cover are unaffected"

He rolled well, and had that and the armywide +1 strength to heavy weapons for the crucial turn 1 and 2. But now that I think about it, in 9th edition, vehicles cannot gain the benefit of a cover save. So, does this mean that while this canticle grants army wide cover save, but it only grants it to the infantry because the vehicles are not allowed to benefit from a cover save in 9th edition?

This is significant, because my black legion army shot 12 lascannons shots and 3 plama gun shots with abaddon giving rerolls all hits to 8 of the shots, which also wound on 2s cos of veterans, but his disintigrators tanked it all like a champ and I couldn't even kill 1 disintigrator. I even rerolled one of the damage dice to a 4 I think. But he was getting a 5+ save even from being hit by plasma and lascannnon because that canticles made his Disintigrator a 2+ save? And he made some of his 5+ saves with good dice rolling.

Still, my question remains. Does that shroudspalm canticle gives a cover save+1 to vehicles in 9th edition when vehicles aren't allowed to get a cover save? This is significant when I think about it now, because quite a few of those saves he rolled were 5s ...

I am still miffed that so many lascannon shots and 3 plasma shots failed to kill 1 T7 tank with no invul save...

Btw, quick battle report. We played scorched earth. I went first and failed to kill a single thing except 1 infantry squad. (The lucky disintigrator). Then his ad mech portion of the army literally wiped out almost my entire right flank. (2 hellbrutes and 1 CSM squad and 1 bike squad all obliterated, despite a Dark Apostle giving the hellbrutes a 5++).

I also lost another bike squad and a forgefiend on my left flank, and my lascannon squad was wittled down to 1 lascannon. So, he had removed almost all of my heavy anti tank shooting within 1 round...

His turn 2, he killed the lascannon havoc, my reaper chain cannon squad, my last hellbrute, the dark apostle, 4 CSM squad, and my 5 man Termi squad that deepstruck in and failed their charge. And he then failed to kill my last remaining 30 cultists, which had a 5++ from Nortilith crown and 5+ FNP from delightful agonies. (and Abby fluffed the charge).

By turn 3, we called it. Even with tide of traitors bringing back the 30 cultists to full strength. It was too little too late. I had 30 out of position cultists that failed the charge. Abby exposed on the board and my terminator sorceror also exposed on the board. And the Nortilith crown. I had killed a ton of his chaff infantry, but hardly touched any of his vehicles because he took out all my heavy shooting on turn 1, and without even rolling, we knew he would shoot me off the board by turn 3 at that point...

Oh, and his 3 disintigrators and 1 manticore all had weapons that could ignore line of sight... so, hiding wouldn't have saved me...

If my dice rolling was better, it probably could have been a better game, and I did have fun (Abby wiped out 7 bullgryns in one beastly round of combat, and I took out like 40 infantry at least? lol.) But still... uphill task against that kind of shooting... (and I even went first lol). It was fun to blow through over 12 CP within 3 turns too. And I didn't spend them all on command rerolls too. I was using strategems like (Tip of the spear, veterans, Endless Cacophony, fire frenzy on lascannon hellbrute, Let the galaxy burn, tide of traitors, that strategem to change psychic power to my death hex, Daemon Forge on my Forgefiend...)

It felt awesome. Sad thing was... even with all that, and all the rerolls by Abaddon, my dice just failed me... sigh. failed charges from Abaddon even with a CP reroll, low damage on my lascannons even with a reroll. death hex failed to go off the first time even on a reroll of 1 provided by the warlord trait, and it went off finally the round after that from a reroll provided by the Nortilith crown. It was just ridiculous lol. My dice rolls were so bad.... And his dice rolling was so hot too. I mean, 7 wounds from my forgefiend from daemonforge, and he saves ... all of them! Because it was 3+ save because of his canticles and for his dice, 3+ saves are super easy to make.

Shroudsalm still gives cover to mech IMO. Just because terrain doesn't now is not the same thing as gaining cover from other sources. Ad mech is just nasty now I know.

On csm in general I feel like we really do need to splash into another legion or be near mono build. csm gives access to the most options including some that are lacking in the cult legions. But those legions bring power to troops category which has always been vital, in my experience anyway.

Holy cow! All marines, including CSM and our cult marines, are getting our wounds upped to 2W !!! And Terminators get upped to 3W !!!

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Holy cow! All marines, including CSM and our cult marines, are getting our wounds upped to 2W !!! And Terminators get upped to 3W !!!

feth yes! This makes my night lords quite happy.

Raptors, havocs, basic csms and berzerkers are core in most of my builds.

Hopefully this means bikers also get +1W, then i'd be pretty excstatic

wow... berserkers... Their problem was always that they were too fragile. Now, their durability just doubled! 2W berserkers sound so awesome !!!!

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Holy cow! All marines, including CSM and our cult marines, are getting our wounds upped to 2W !!! And Terminators get upped to 3W !!!

feth yes! This makes my night lords quite happy.

Raptors, havocs, basic csms and berzerkers are core in most of my builds.

Hopefully this means bikers also get +1W, then i'd be pretty excstatic

Don't forget Warp Talons. 2W, T4, 3+, 5++, sounds pretty damned good. Mini terminators with jump packs. With "Prey On The Weak" they could already shred a unit of intercessors, now they can survive the reprisal. No Eighth Legion army should be without them.

We only will recive that when we are in line for a dex tho, and if i were a betting man, i'd say out stratagems won't survive in this state when we are in line to get one...

Some are more equal it seems....

Dont forget that points will increase as well. A tactical marine with W2 will be 18 pts. A chaos marine will probably be the same. When wounds go up, points will go up too.

 p5freak wrote:
Dont forget that points will increase as well. A tactical marine with W2 will be 18 pts. A chaos marine will probably be the same. When wounds go up, points will go up too.

Probably 16-17 if we get no doctrines . But still.

At least this will make a very clear distinction between csm and cultists. Do you want elite 2W infantry or chafe? Even if Chosen don't become a troops choice, our troops options are more clearly defined.

Feth Plague Marines are amazing this edition. 2W T5 3+ DR 5+? It may be worth taking them even without taking a Death Guard detachment. Now just need Mark of Nurgle to add +1 toughness again and Nurgle bikes with Plague Marines will be a rock solid core of stuff that takes a lot of shots.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
At least this will make a very clear distinction between csm and cultists. Do you want elite 2W infantry or chafe? Even if Chosen don't become a troops choice, our troops options are more clearly defined.

What elites Are you talking about?
Those veterans that have worse rules then their counterpart and shared the price with an Aspirant of them?

Also cultists especially but any s3 gun owner in the game got alot worse.
I am rather concerned and also aggrivated because this will Turn into a waiting game for a lot of factions.and that certainly ain't Fun or good for the game...

I cant wait to see what happens to my Noise marines. I really miss playing them, especially with all the money I spent on conversions(even got kakaphoni for squad leaders)

consider a thing anyway...you will see more 2D weapons around, just one the heavy bolter now will have damage2...so...

 blackmage wrote:
consider a thing anyway...you will see more 2D weapons around, just one the heavy bolter now will have damage2...so...

True, but in the case of the heavy bolter I hear it's going from 3 shots down to 1 shot. This may be the case for all weapons that are getting a damage increase

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
At least this will make a very clear distinction between csm and cultists. Do you want elite 2W infantry or chafe? Even if Chosen don't become a troops choice, our troops options are more clearly defined.

What elites Are you talking about?
Those veterans that have worse rules then their counterpart and shared the price with an Aspirant of them?

Also cultists especially but any s3 gun owner in the game got alot worse.
I am rather concerned and also aggrivated because this will Turn into a waiting game for a lot of factions.and that certainly ain't Fun or good for the game...

That's the point, maybe now we'll actually have csm that can compete with loyalists.

Agreed on your concerns about the release schedule.

 l0k1 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
consider a thing anyway...you will see more 2D weapons around, just one the heavy bolter now will have damage2...so...

True, but in the case of the heavy bolter I hear it's going from 3 shots down to 1 shot. This may be the case for all weapons that are getting a damage increase

doubt heavy bolter will be heavy1 but we will see