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I would always use combibolter/chainaxe. Well worth the 4 pts. CSM are not worth spending lots of points for weapons. Maybe one heavy weapon as anti vehicle, like a LC.

Had a game today. This time I played as csm that my friend brought while I landed him some of my orks. I got no buggies tho, so, some were his, some were proxies.
Twas a 1k pt game and orks ran a buggy list containing: trike, 3 scraps, 2 sjd, 3 mek gunz, trukkboyz
Csm ran Abaddon, sorc, 2 defilers, 1 helbrute, 2*5 Marines, 10 cultists.

There was some severe lack of cover due to us playing at the dacha (country house) and not at the city gaming club. I think that impacted the game quite a lot cause orks removed half the cam army turn 1.
Unfortunately for orks, csm proved to be exceptionally good in mellee vs buggies and 500 pt of csm wrecked 500pt of orks in return.
We played just 2 turns but it was a single mek gun and 1 sjd remaining vs 8 cultists, 2 Marines and a 10-wound defiler. Decided to call it even and proceed drinking tea and eating tasties.

Some highlights:
-As expected, defilers are exceptionally good if they get to fight. Even more so, with tighter battlefields, enemies moving around and no heavy weapon penalty for moving. 1 defiler got killed but the second one pulled it's weight 3 times over - and we have played just 2 turns. It's shooting with demonforge is quite decent - especially vs light vehicles. I got 5 shots for the battle cannon (spent cp). It's mellee is frightening with daemonforge.
-Abaddon is also great in mellee, that's expected. But he got shot down without much trouble the moment he was left alone in the open. Halving wounds is not as amazing vs d3 weapons as you might want it to be.
-Marines scored some points but didn:'t pull their weight in the killing department. Just shot down some boyz. I'm thinking it's not an ideal edition for anti-infantry. Plazma might be better than their new 8-shot cannon. At least for min squads. If you got no plan for them other than "they'll probably be fine for generating cp and scoring", it's probably s good idea to keep them stock. Well, maybe a combi-bolter or a single plasma.
- Helbrute got one-shot. 8 wounds for like 130 pts I spent for taking twin laz were easily wasted.
- I'm not sure what to take for larger games other than 1 extra defiler and maybe some min termies with chain axes.

Here's a photo.

 p5freak wrote:
I would always use combibolter/chainaxe. Well worth the 4 pts. CSM are not worth spending lots of points for weapons. Maybe one heavy weapon as anti vehicle, like a LC.

CB Chainaxe is a good loadout.
For small squads funnily enough most heavy weapons are nice.
An ac, can bring the hurt against heavy infantry reliably without babysiting.
Lascannons behind 4 ablative wounds are also not bad.
The improved Missile launcher might actually be worth it in 9th?

I'v been thinking about the 2W thing. It seems great but as others have said:

- it'll come at a pts cost - i'm planning for 150-200pt increase in all lists - which means some stuff is going while others get better

- people will now build dmg 2+ into their lists even more than they already are

- its not just marines getting this wound and weapon buff. It seems to me with some of the necron leaks that 'ALL' armies are getting turned upto 11. So building dmg 2 is probably gonna be easier to boot.

- So all armies will be spending the pts on chunkier weapons.

- Means less on the table because of the increased points and more importantly will be overkill vs light infantry as they'll be set to have less shots (more pts) and dealing with 2w (overkill vs 1w)

- Therefore it'll probably actually be a new mini golden age for cultists etc as they slip under the radar. Until it shifts again because everyone realized what happend.


On a side note FNP type stuff is now gold dust. Slannesh sorcerer with delightful agonies = auto include

Not Online!!! wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I would always use combibolter/chainaxe. Well worth the 4 pts. CSM are not worth spending lots of points for weapons. Maybe one heavy weapon as anti vehicle, like a LC.

CB Chainaxe is a good loadout.
For small squads funnily enough most heavy weapons are nice.
An ac, can bring the hurt against heavy infantry reliably without babysiting.
Lascannons behind 4 ablative wounds are also not bad.
The improved Missile launcher might actually be worth it in 9th?

What so good about an AC ? It only has two shots, and only AP-1. You would need to be lucky to kill one intercessor (in cover). One LC behind 4 ablative wounds isnt good, but its soon going to be 8 ablative wounds, which is better, but points for CSM will probably go up as well.

Because it is a gun that even unbabysitted can easily earn the investment back, allows in a pinch for to work against everything and is not paying out of the nose for beeing a generalist weapon.

 l0k1 wrote:
What's your opinions on load outs for basic CSM Aspiring Champions these days?

Think it all depends on what you want the squad to do.

CSM squads are pretty flexible. Can be equipped to be more melee focused to more ranged focused, or special weapon focused. Combi bolter and chain axe on Champ seems to be the most bang for buck. You get 2 more bolter shots and a str 5 ap-1 weapon for the Champ that has 1 more attack all for just 4 points.

But for some more points, there is a lot of flexibility. I think combi melta plus one melta on a 5 man squad is not bad for an objective secured squad that can come in from strategic reserve, pop off 2 melta shots at vehicle and then potentially charge into combat on an objective.

I'm not getting excited about 2 wound marines. It appears to all be part of GWs attempts to increase granularity. I expect most other factions elite troops will have similar adjustments or points balancing so we will end up in a similar place.

Unfortunately the 2w increase will come at a points cost and as long as MSU marines can only take one special/heavy and one combi it'll just exacerbate the issue.

Without the CP gain from taking troops, in 9th I just don't see a place for CSM. Despite the game being more orientated towards holding objectives, I don't think obsec is enough to overcome the lack of power and flexibility in marine squads. I've been running patrols and making up my infantry with chosen, Berserkers or Havocs and I haven't missed obsec. Our elite infantry has much more potential to clear opponents obsec and make it moot.

Especially with the reduced cost of specials and heavies for infantry, for just 14pts you can upgrade a MSU double plasma marine unit to 5 chosen, all with chainaxes, three with plasma which is a more effective unit in shooting and melee. With chosen you have the flexibility to take as many specials or ablative wounds as you feel comfortable with and I believe that outweighs obsec.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think a major reason why plague marines are such good troop choices is their versatility with three specials in a unit of five, plus upgradeable melee weapons etc.
It's frustrating even scions or sisters can have three specials while we are forced to carry three ineffective chumps in every troop unit...

I agree with you on everything except 2w. This change will help some of our worst units without making the army much more susceptible to things like plas. I feel it's a significant boost to heretics.

But otherwise ya agreed. In particular assault units trump obsec where shooters don't, and we have plenty. From my limited experience in 9th so far I feel the goal is not to load up on obsec but to maximize the value of the compulsory troops we take.. Whether from weaponry or simply from cheap bodies such as cultists.

And then there's the cult troops like PMs. If I was a DG player now thats a unit I would spam. Possibly the best troops unit in the game atm. Rubrics are up there too.

Agreed as well. I'm going to try a vanguard detachment using Chosen, terminators, and Warp Talons as my infantry, with rhinos to get the Chosen where they need to be with Contemptors for anti-armour. The flexibility of Chosen should outweigh obsec. Troops can't hold objectives when they're dead. I'll be adding my Hellforged Achilles once the change to multi-melta is official.

I feel that its about incorporating your troops into your overall strategy. If their main purpose is only to shoot a bit and stand on objectives, its not going to work because they are just too fragile.

Thats why I believe that the increase to 2W is a substantial buff for us CSM too. We really suffer from fragility right now. Any kind of marine, unless its PM or maybe rubrics die so fast.

75 points of bare bone CSM just don't do anything. Having 3 squads of bare bones CSM means you are literally wasting 225 points. A chosen squad costs more, but at least a fully kitted out combi melta or combi plasma chosen squad coming in from reserves will have a good chance of destroying stuff equal to its points or more.

The game is so lethal in shooting now a squad of 5 CSM has almost zero chance of surviving on an objective alone.

Haven't tried chosen in a looong time but I like the idea. Particularly the dual chosen in termite idea I've seen floating around. Pretty badass.

Troops are still compulsory afterthoughts to me. Earlier I was thinking they had more of a role but now I think not necessarily in heretics. Instead I find I just want a a few specific tools. A cheap camper action taker, a pseudo elite from a cult legion and then maybe a third unit to draw fire are my current ones. Right now I feel the third unit is still a larger cultist unit because it demands fire or out-obsecs them and if it isn't wiped they come back with tide. Alternately 3x10 cultists is still the default imo.

From there I'm gonna continue using spawn. Less susceptible to oolos blast weapons cheap and deny DS LZs. Honestly have yet to be disappointed in spawn even in 8th.

Just a thought I had. Since Overwatch is kinda gone and the marine is alot beffier. I wonder if 20 CSM with CQC weapons might be viable. Its alot to chew through and should the red corsair tide of traitors Strat still exist you can recycle it pretty easily. Warp time and either the nurgle or slaanesh Psychic power to make them more durable.

Primaris might have insane ranged weapons now but they still suck in combat.

20 CSM becomes 280 points. Thats a lot of points and it better do something. Actually for efficiency, a squad of 10 zerkers are cheaper and will probably do a better job are clearing out whatever objective you charge. The only thing they have going for them is the durability of more bodies, and coming back with that red corsairs strat. in exchange, they will take max hits from blast weapons.

But the trick will probably only work once anyway, if at all. Because opponent will know that if he wants to counter that strategy, he better Kill off the entire squad. Its like RP for necrons, and you know how much Necron players feel that RP is not useful currently.

Agreed. It's hard to evaluate in the abstract and 40 meq wounds is pretty substantial particularly with more where they came from or whatever it's called. I say try it and let us know.

I have a personal hangup with spending more on troops then I have to unfortunately haha. Maybe I'm off base but I like to take the extra pts and buy something more lethal. It's likely that both approaches could have success.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
20 CSM becomes 280 points.

Unlikely. A tac marine with W2 will be 18 pts. A CSM will probably be 16/17.

Oh, we are talking about when they become 2W ? yeah. then they will probably become even more expensive in terms of points. So the issue is that if you being a squad of 20 CSM that costs more than 300 points, it better do something rather than just be durable. Because at over 300 points, you can being stuff like a squad of obliterators, or 2 defilers charging upthe board, which will be much better at deleting stuff from the table.

 p5freak wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
20 CSM becomes 280 points.

Unlikely. A tac marine with W2 will be 18 pts. A CSM will probably be 16/17.

Csm will probably be 18 PPM, because gw will consider whatever they give us in our new codex to make them equal to loyalists, whether it does or not. Chosen will most likely be 20 PPM, same as intercessors, because of the extra attack.

There is a chance that since they don't technically do a kit for them when the new codex comes around normal CSM will just have chosen stats and similar options and chosen will be squatted.

I'd be willing to try a blob of 20 in Bile's subfaction. Faster, S/T 5 2W access to advance and charge, full hit rerolls and 6s autowound in melee.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Because it is a gun that even unbabysitted can easily earn the investment back, allows in a pinch for to work against everything and is not paying out of the nose for beeing a generalist weapon.

But once the 2w marines hit, so will d2 heavy bolters...

macluvin wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Because it is a gun that even unbabysitted can easily earn the investment back, allows in a pinch for to work against everything and is not paying out of the nose for beeing a generalist weapon.

But once the 2w marines hit, so will d2 heavy bolters...

Which s7 breaching s6 threshold and range and reachint t7 threshold for light vehicles.

We also don't know if auto cannons are staying the same. Gw is changing weapons profiles left right and center. I wouldn't assume anything until we start seeing some codexes.

Do marines even have autocannons? If not then we might want to wait until the CSM codex.

Loyalists have twin auto cannons on their Contemptors. We could see updates in the new fw books. I think that may be why they've been holding them back. They have some of the new weapon profiles in them and they don't want to let the cat out of the bag until they release the loyalist codex.

Prefacing this post by saying: I wish GW would have just released 9th with the 2W update for Marines. It's really hard to plan for a new edition while trying to anticipate changes that are on the way.

Roknar wrote:Chain swords getting -1 AP on top of getting an extra wound is pretty sweet for regular marines.
A horde of 20 is now 40 wounds and can be 4 attacks per on the charge with full rerolls (assuming stratagems at least)
With 40 wounds you might even last through a turn to capture an objective and they can benefit from just about any buff you want.

I see this and all I think is Overkill. With the new charge rules, you're often going to be charging a single unit with those 20 CSM.

This is an example of where a good idea is nerfed before it's incorporated into the rules. If the consequences of a failed multicharge were not so dire, chainswords would have more of an impact on the game.

dominuschao wrote:Haven't tried chosen in a looong time but I like the idea. Particularly the dual chosen in termite idea I've seen floating around. Pretty badass.

My guess is most competitive lists will feature Chosen / Drill along with 3 Obliterators. Might be the best option we have for clearing objectives and controlling the center of the board.

Have been thinking about a Black Legion / Death Guard list that would take these plus a Chainlord, a JP Sorcerer, and MSU CSMs with Autocannons. The DG would take Typhus, Blightlord Terminators, Blight Haulers, and a Poxwalker horde. Units would be fairly resilient, good at camping, and excellent at denying opponents opportunities to score.

What makes me leery is the idea that other armies are going to max out on D2 weapons. I'm still getting up to speed on all the NuMarine options that are out there, and I'm having a hard time getting my head around what Dark Eldar / Orks would be most likely to throw up (there the ones I have the most trouble with.) For the points, the Chosen Drill combo needs to be more than a suicide squad because board control matters so much this edition.

If 2W CSM cost 18ppm, that means I could get 3 Cultists for the same price. The trade off is a better save, BS and upgrades in exchange for 1 wound. I'm not at the point where that's a no-brainer.

At some point, this will all be obvious. But not knowing for sure about changes to stats and points is really making it hard to plan for 9th.

Chosen over Havocs?

I like the 20 marines because if they can get into combat with more than 1 unit is such a huge speed bump to chew through. Just gotta warp time them, etc

Edit- @techsoldaten
Ya I dig the basic shell. If your including DG you'd get more value from PMs over csm though and they don't care nearly as much about d2 weapons.

That assumes you don't want to run a battalion of black legion though.

Cultists still seem to be the more efficient choice to me, but its close. And csm are cooler so theres that. But zombies got them beat too! DG are looking really good now.

Haven't come to grips with the new stuff myself although I am a long time DE player and dabble in orks too (neither one recently). Both can absolutely spam d2 and d3 high ROF weapons. I would guess DE will be running much more covens now for that reason.. picture d2 +1 to wound and auto wounding on 6s to-hit splinter weaponry. And it applies to every gun iirc not just spinterfire.

dominuschao wrote:
Edit- @techsoldaten
Ya I dig the basic shell. If your including DG you'd get more value from PMs over csm though and they don't care nearly as much about d2 weapons.

That assumes you don't want to run a battalion of black legion though.

Cultists still seem to be the more efficient choice to me, but its close. And csm are cooler so theres that. But zombies got them beat too! DG are looking really good now.

Haven't come to grips with the new stuff myself although I am a long time DE player and dabble in orks too (neither one recently). Both can absolutely spam d2 and d3 high ROF weapons. I would guess DE will be running much more covens now for that reason.. picture d2 +1 to wound and auto wounding on 6s to-hit splinter weaponry. And it applies to every gun iirc not just spinterfire.

The reason I'm including CSM over PM is assumptions about points. Thinking you get 4 MSU CSM squads for the price of 2 MSU PM squads. If they were equal ppm, yeah, I'd do that in a heartbeat.

Not convinced Death Guard have a clear advantage over CSM. Mobility is important in 9th, DG don't have that with their troops. Stratagems like World Killers are important, units like Obliterators and Discolords are important. Time will tell.

Nothing about DE and Orks surprises me, my local meta is infested with very clever armies of both. At some point, I will get around to playing a game of 9th and will probably get tabled immediately by one of these armies.

Hmm good point but hopefully they don't go up quite that much. Agreed on csm vs DG. I was talking about troops comparison where DG are looking like one of the strongest. In theory anyway.