Latro_ wrote: What we thinking about forge fiends now the pts and 9th ed rules are out?
I'm thinking would 3 be cool with autocannons and a lord discordant.
Just march em forward hitting on 3's! with 24 s8 dm2 shots
Thinking of including this in my world eaters army, wondering what stuff to put on the LD? Maybe a DP might be btter so he can remain hidden i guess re-rolling 1's inst quite as good as hitting on 3's though. If went LD i guess its unholy fortitude on him
I'm possibly looking towards a list that relies heavily on daemon engines, with maulerfiends for World Eaters, forgefiends for Iron Warriors, and venomcrawlers scattered about.
I guess a walking dakka castle might be interesting?
2 lord discordants, (because Backup hell yeah) and a MoP with 3 of these could make for a rather nasty dakka surprise that also could get some decent melee capabilities in, not to mention 4+++ for the daemonengines would be required to atleast give the Lord discordants a fighting chance.
Shame though that regular csm vehicles will still suck..
Thats the thing forgefiends are actually not that bad in combat! (4 s6 -1 2dmg attacks)
You can keep them moving forward pumping out fire, get in combat with some okish attacks but then remember in your next turn if you are still in combat boom, 8 shots into the enemy engaged with you.
Fairly tough, good movement, good shooting, good in engagement range, good foot print for board control.
Seems 3 of these boys got really nice in 9th
I guess it's handy that maulerfiends are priced out now as mine is magnetised as a forgefiend.
However, the 9th ed forgefiend alongside a lord discordant has very similar stats and price as the 8th ed contemptor when it moved. Price standing still might as well be a point reduction but I think I'd still rather cough up the extra 40pts for the contemptor which doesn't need the support of the LD.
The contemptor is twice as accurate as the forgefiend for 30% more points, don't think the contemptor is completely out the running but it's nice to have options
For anyone interested, I did an analysis on my YouTube channel yesterday on how to play Chaos in 9th Edition based on all the new points changes and FAQs:
Abaddon303 wrote: I guess it's handy that maulerfiends are priced out now as mine is magnetised as a forgefiend.
However, the 9th ed forgefiend alongside a lord discordant has very similar stats and price as the 8th ed contemptor when it moved. Price standing still might as well be a point reduction but I think I'd still rather cough up the extra 40pts for the contemptor which doesn't need the support of the LD.
The contemptor is twice as accurate as the forgefiend for 30% more points, don't think the contemptor is completely out the running but it's nice to have options
The forgefiend is the better option over the contemptor because of its invul save and having 2 gun + a melee weapon. That invul save is going to matter a lot with Eradicators running around. Regen of course helps too. And you can use a strat to get reroll all hits or wounds.
So does everyone play at 2000 points (I know that's tourny standard)?
I play at 1500, and at 1500 I just honestly don't find Disolords that impressive. They're expensive, are heavily incentived to be on the frontlines at all times but are extremely fragile. Everyone I talk to says just take three bro, but... they're expensive. Taking even just two is like 40% of my points for units that will die to 4 or 5 lascannons or heavy mining lasers and can't be protected in any capacity.
BlaxicanX wrote: So does everyone play at 2000 points (I know that's tourny standard)?
I play at 1500, and at 1500 I just honestly don't find Disolords that impressive. They're expensive, are heavily incentived to be on the frontlines at all times but are extremely fragile. Everyone I talk to says just take three bro, but... they're expensive. Taking even just two is like 40% of my points for units that will die to 4 or 5 lascannons or heavy mining lasers.
Am I missing something with these guys?
Not really , you need to invest to Make them durable and half These options die with 9th.
Granted Al still lowers damage alot and you can still improve their ++ SV with a MoP decently they remain bit brittle
So with 10 point meltas and 10 point plasma, are meltas feasible? I don’t mean to include whatever broken gak GW decided to hand the marines in 9th to this conversation... please don’t bring up the assault multimelta primaris with 3 wounds as a counter point to melta chosen or melta marines.
macluvin wrote: So with 10 point meltas and 10 point plasma, are meltas feasible? I don’t mean to include whatever broken gak GW decided to hand the marines in 9th to this conversation... please don’t bring up the assault multimelta primaris with 3 wounds as a counter point to melta chosen or melta marines.
The damage works out like so at the following ranges, against a T7 3+, T8 3+, and T8 3+/4++ target, assuming BS 3+ and no buffs. Overcharging on Plasma.
12"-24" Plasma does .74, .55, and .33 damage.
Melta does nothing.
6"-12" Plasma does 1.48, 1.11, and .67 damage.
Melta does 1.55, 1.17, and .58 damage.
6" or less Plasma does 1.48, 1.11, and .67 damage.
Melta does 2, 1.5, and .75 damage.
Notably, while Melta is marginally better against big targets without Invulns (and even better against a 4++ Knight, if within 6") it's much worse as a general-purpose weapon. A Melta kills an average of less than half an Intercessor a turn, outside of Melta range, whereas a Plasma gun in that same 6"-12" zone kills .93 Intercessors a turn on average.
46.30% chance of a Melta gun killing an Intercessor, increasing to 54.01% within Melta range.
71.16% chance of a Plasma killing at least one Intercessor in Rapid Fire range, 21.43% of killing two.
macluvin wrote: So with 10 point meltas and 10 point plasma, are meltas feasible? I don’t mean to include whatever broken gak GW decided to hand the marines in 9th to this conversation... please don’t bring up the assault multimelta primaris with 3 wounds as a counter point to melta chosen or melta marines.
The damage works out like so at the following ranges, against a T7 3+, T8 3+, and T8 3+/4++ target, assuming BS 3+ and no buffs. Overcharging on Plasma.
12"-24" Plasma does .74, .55, and .33 damage.
Melta does nothing.
6"-12" Plasma does 1.48, 1.11, and .67 damage.
Melta does 1.55, 1.17, and .58 damage.
6" or less Plasma does 1.48, 1.11, and .67 damage.
Melta does 2, 1.5, and .75 damage.
Notably, while Melta is marginally better against big targets without Invulns (and even better against a 4++ Knight, if within 6") it's much worse as a general-purpose weapon. A Melta kills an average of less than half an Intercessor a turn, outside of Melta range, whereas a Plasma gun in that same 6"-12" zone kills .93 Intercessors a turn on average.
46.30% chance of a Melta gun killing an Intercessor, increasing to 54.01% within Melta range.
71.16% chance of a Plasma killing at least one Intercessor in Rapid Fire range, 21.43% of killing two.
More proof of what I've been saying for awhile: Plasma should have been s6, overheat for s7 (inline with previous editions) and a few points cheaper. The extra hits at range easily outweight melta's better dmg up close, and that's not even counting differences vs lighter targets. Melta should be dirt cheap this edition with how weak it is.
Plasma is the better option as long as you have some other high strength ranged weapons in your army (lascannons or missiles.) And with the points decrease on both, its a good time for them.
Considering the pts balance for weapons also just got fethed via gw turning everything into divisible by 5/10....
Explain to me how a flammer even can attempt to compete?
Abaddon303 wrote: I guess it's handy that maulerfiends are priced out now as mine is magnetised as a forgefiend.
However, the 9th ed forgefiend alongside a lord discordant has very similar stats and price as the 8th ed contemptor when it moved. Price standing still might as well be a point reduction but I think I'd still rather cough up the extra 40pts for the contemptor which doesn't need the support of the LD.
The contemptor is twice as accurate as the forgefiend for 30% more points, don't think the contemptor is completely out the running but it's nice to have options
The forgefiend is the better option over the contemptor because of its invul save and having 2 gun + a melee weapon. That invul save is going to matter a lot with Eradicators running around. Regen of course helps too. And you can use a strat to get reroll all hits or wounds.
Contemptors have a 5++ against shooting and a 4++ against melee. Also, most Forgefiends. Also, Butcher Cannons are incredible and the Contemptor gets to use Legion Traits, where as the Forgefiend doesn't (hopefully just for now).
But I have a solution: Take both. Contemptors are elites and Forgefiends are heavy support.
On a different note, losing HQ slots has really hurt my lists/playstyle. Going from 2 DP's, a Disco Lord, a Chaos Lord for backfield, and a Sorceror/Dark Apostle for buffs down to just 3 slots. I can buy another detachment, but the points for those extra HQ's got eaten up the rise in cost for troops.
Not Online!!! wrote: Considering the pts balance for weapons also just got fethed via gw turning everything into divisible by 5/10....
Explain to me how a flammer even can attempt to compete?
Oh heavens yes I wanted the flamer to be fun too :( I love the idea of flamers as a weapon of war in this setting. So brutal... except not on the table top. Arson seems like such a chaos-ey thing to do.
Abaddon303 wrote: I guess it's handy that maulerfiends are priced out now as mine is magnetised as a forgefiend.
However, the 9th ed forgefiend alongside a lord discordant has very similar stats and price as the 8th ed contemptor when it moved. Price standing still might as well be a point reduction but I think I'd still rather cough up the extra 40pts for the contemptor which doesn't need the support of the LD.
The contemptor is twice as accurate as the forgefiend for 30% more points, don't think the contemptor is completely out the running but it's nice to have options
The forgefiend is the better option over the contemptor because of its invul save and having 2 gun + a melee weapon. That invul save is going to matter a lot with Eradicators running around. Regen of course helps too. And you can use a strat to get reroll all hits or wounds.
Contemptors have a 5++ against shooting and a 4++ against melee. Also, most Forgefiends. Also, Butcher Cannons are incredible and the Contemptor gets to use Legion Traits, where as the Forgefiend doesn't (hopefully just for now).
But I have a solution: Take both. Contemptors are elites and Forgefiends are heavy support.
On a different note, losing HQ slots has really hurt my lists/playstyle. Going from 2 DP's, a Disco Lord, a Chaos Lord for backfield, and a Sorceror/Dark Apostle for buffs down to just 3 slots. I can buy another detachment, but the points for those extra HQ's got eaten up the rise in cost for troops.
Oh right, yeah. Not sure how i forgot that. You are correct then.
I am thinking about a Disco Lord with some Venomcrawlers to harass a flank while a big blob of Plague Marines head towards the center objective. With Miasma on them they should be pretty survivable.
Haven't seen its points cost but it was damn good in eighth so as long as it's points didn't go up too astronomically It might be pretty good.
While tinkering with a list today I tried to fit in a Land Raider with some termies but at nearly 300 points for its default loadout the fething thing is just completely useless. Everything got way too expensive for me to ever justify taking such a luxury purchase relative to what it will actually do on the table. If it had objective secured or something it might be worth its points otherwise it's a giant paper weight that can't even hold a point against some guardsmen.
So disappointing that after like 20 years of the vehicle being a piece of crap games workshop is still unable to balance it.
macluvin wrote: So with 10 point meltas and 10 point plasma, are meltas feasible? I don’t mean to include whatever broken gak GW decided to hand the marines in 9th to this conversation... please don’t bring up the assault multimelta primaris with 3 wounds as a counter point to melta chosen or melta marines.
The damage works out like so at the following ranges, against a T7 3+, T8 3+, and T8 3+/4++ target, assuming BS 3+ and no buffs. Overcharging on Plasma.
12"-24" Plasma does .74, .55, and .33 damage.
Melta does nothing.
6"-12" Plasma does 1.48, 1.11, and .67 damage.
Melta does 1.55, 1.17, and .58 damage.
6" or less Plasma does 1.48, 1.11, and .67 damage.
Melta does 2, 1.5, and .75 damage.
Notably, while Melta is marginally better against big targets without Invulns (and even better against a 4++ Knight, if within 6") it's much worse as a general-purpose weapon. A Melta kills an average of less than half an Intercessor a turn, outside of Melta range, whereas a Plasma gun in that same 6"-12" zone kills .93 Intercessors a turn on average.
46.30% chance of a Melta gun killing an Intercessor, increasing to 54.01% within Melta range.
71.16% chance of a Plasma killing at least one Intercessor in Rapid Fire range, 21.43% of killing two.
be interested how blight launchers stack with these two? they are the same pts as melta now. edit: By my maths its a pretty steady 0.69 across 0-24"
so plasma prob still king
Eldenfirefly wrote: Lord of skulls didn't see any point increase. But I am not sure how many would want to pay the 3 CP just to add a LOS into their army.
Might be very fluffy if you go all daemon engine anyway. After all, a LOS is the meanest daemon engine we have in CSM.
He goes from 315 to 350.
KLOS stock loadout weapons also got cheaper by 35 points so its a net 0 change on the KLOS. The biggest penalty with KLOS is the detachment CP costs.
ArcaneHorror wrote:
Latro_ wrote: What we thinking about forge fiends now the pts and 9th ed rules are out?
I'm thinking would 3 be cool with autocannons and a lord discordant.
Just march em forward hitting on 3's! with 24 s8 dm2 shots
Thinking of including this in my world eaters army, wondering what stuff to put on the LD? Maybe a DP might be btter so he can remain hidden i guess re-rolling 1's inst quite as good as hitting on 3's though. If went LD i guess its unholy fortitude on him
I'm possibly looking towards a list that relies heavily on daemon engines, with maulerfiends for World Eaters, forgefiends for Iron Warriors, and venomcrawlers scattered about.
I'm looking to play with (mostly) Slaanesh Daemon Engines in Iron Warriors detach at the moment. It's probably just on the marginal scale of power but it's a tester list to roll up against some shooty lists and see exactly how much legs is in 9th edition shooting lists. Contorted Epitome Slaanesh Herald on something, 2x Disco, 3x Venom, 2x Heldrake as a core. Decimators i'm wishwashing on butcher cannon vs the dual melee+flamer choice but they're also definitely coming in some amount. Blood Slaughterers of Khorne are real cute with Venomcrawlers, and taking them in a Soulforge detach allows advance+charge with a single BSoK even though they're not benefitting from the Slaanesh loci. Since legion traits don't confer to Daemon Engines it's basically a choice of stratagems for what legion to label it as. Right now i'm choosing IW for the most stratagems that apply to daemon engines. 1cp heal 3 wounds. 1cp 6+++ ("stacks" with Daemon codex Delightful Agonies to protect a targeted unit. Roll 2d6, if either are a 6+ ignore the wound). 1cp worsen an opponent unit's AP by 1, 1CP select friendly unit to reroll wound rolls against a vehicle (can activate it for shooting phase or fight phase).
You get a pretty solid level of shenanigans in the army. 100ish T6/T7/T8 wounds, every model is regenerating wounds from various sources. 1 per turn per daemon engine. 3 from IW Stratagem, Venomcrawlers get 1 when killing a model in fight, Lords Discordant can heal themselves or others d3. The Contorted Epitome is two pages of headache inducing rules for your oppoent, especially giving the unit Warlord for Bewitching Aura (opponents models within 6" get -1 attacks) and taking the Forbidden gem to "just say no" to someones HQ for a phase that may just be extremely vital to surviving an alpha strike after your T1 charging, also The Contorted Epitome is a pretty great tool in the box to prevent opponents falling back with key units.
A cute option that may have real legs is Black Legion specifically to abuse the World Killers stratagem on the opening turns to turn off your opponents ability to prevent you from taking primary victory points. It's fast units, advancing, firing assault weapons, and charging. Great board control off the hop and you get just enough CP in the game to hose your opponent off of sniping your primary points from your low model army. If it's the only stratagem you're casting you get all 5 turns of popping it. Luckily enough, BL has no other stratagems worth a crap for Daemon Engines so it'll be the only thing you're doing anyways. Well, except for Daemonforge every turn, so count on a solid 3 turns of World Killing. Unfortunately i'm not sure if it just turns off ObSec, or if your opponents units are literally incapable of holding the objective if you're on it. My hunch is it just turns off Obsec, making this not worth taking in reality because 2 of your Daemon engines are just gonna lose the point to that blob of obsec with 3 units left that you couldn't quite finish chewing through.
Couple other cute options. Taking the IW Insidium relic (adds <Daemon> to the model holding the relic) on a Sorc with Jetpack if running BSoK to keep Daemon keyword across the detachments so you can run Khorne daemon engines (if you want to run IW as a Patrol/Batt you need slaanesh cultists/CSM troops for a battleforged list). With BSoK lists i'd be running spearhead IW and dropping the obsec troops and sharing Daemon keyword across detachments instead of Slaanesh. Leaving the daemonettes in the Daemon Patrol to make up some obsec options. This opens up really reliable access to Dark Hereticus where you're wanting warptime and the much better CSM Delightful Agonies (5+++ in CSM Codex, Daemon codex is 6+++). Catch is you still can't cast both. Same spiel with running an Insidium Chaos Lord on a bike/jetpack for some Rerolling 1's to hit across whatever you want it on. Most certainly some butcher cannon Decimators. Note that Insidium isn't required to run Khorne Daemon engines, but IMHO if you're going that route with Slaanesh daemon loci you're doing this to get some extra CSMHQ shenanigans. Also note that running Spearhead/whatever only gives you 2 HQ. So you're bringing 1 Lords Discordant now, and when he gets shot right off the table turn 1 your effectiveness across the board just got hosed, so almost everything is being spent to protect him. Delightful Agonies, IW Stratagems, full shebang.
Want to fix your trash obsec problem and focus on Daemon Engine shooting? Emperor's Children is the bet. Take some Noise Marines and with butcher cannon decimators, some Oblits, and you've got decent firepower. But my hunch here is shooting is most certainly not where we're going to want to be. You'll just get shot right off the table by the armies that can actually pull of shooting.
The whole point of this endeavor is that I want to play every phase of the game. Stratagems+Psyker+Move+Advance+Shoot+Charge. So just the tiniest Slaanesh Daemon patrol to get some Loci offers a lot of boons to playing a mono-vehicle army. I expect any armies with pretty good deepstrike options are just going to hose this list as it has extremely limited options for screening out deepstrike. I'm not sure what the final result of Daemon+Daemon Engines is going to look like but there is something decently competitive floating around somewhere.
macluvin wrote: So with 10 point meltas and 10 point plasma, are meltas feasible? I don’t mean to include whatever broken gak GW decided to hand the marines in 9th to this conversation... please don’t bring up the assault multimelta primaris with 3 wounds as a counter point to melta chosen or melta marines.
The damage works out like so at the following ranges, against a T7 3+, T8 3+, and T8 3+/4++ target, assuming BS 3+ and no buffs. Overcharging on Plasma.
12"-24" Plasma does .74, .55, and .33 damage.
Melta does nothing.
6"-12" Plasma does 1.48, 1.11, and .67 damage.
Melta does 1.55, 1.17, and .58 damage.
6" or less Plasma does 1.48, 1.11, and .67 damage.
Melta does 2, 1.5, and .75 damage.
Notably, while Melta is marginally better against big targets without Invulns (and even better against a 4++ Knight, if within 6") it's much worse as a general-purpose weapon. A Melta kills an average of less than half an Intercessor a turn, outside of Melta range, whereas a Plasma gun in that same 6"-12" zone kills .93 Intercessors a turn on average.
46.30% chance of a Melta gun killing an Intercessor, increasing to 54.01% within Melta range.
71.16% chance of a Plasma killing at least one Intercessor in Rapid Fire range, 21.43% of killing two.
This is assuming you overcharge all the time with Plasma guns? I think going forward, I would be a lot more careful with plasma guns overcharging now. I read that a 1 is always a instant suicide. So, there is a 1/6 chance to die if you overcharge. Given that it is important to stay alive as long as possible because staying on an objective until the start of your next turn is so important. I wouldn't overcharge unless it was so essential to kill my target. Like even if I was shooting at a T4, I wouldn't over charge, I would rather use veterans of the long war because I don't want to risk dying from my plama gun blowing up.
I would be more interested to see how the math is based on not overcharging the plasma.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think psychic is going to be severely nerfed in 9th edition. There are less HQ slots available, and you kind of also want the HQs that have buff auras. A Sorceror has no buff auras (unless you are TS exalted sorceror).
So, if you spend more HQ slots on sorcerors, then you have no aura buffs. Also, given the limited number of sorcerors you are likely to be running, smites are going to be a luxury, because you probably would rather cast that one or two key psychic power instead.
An interesting tidbit. If you being bringers of despair detachment, you can give a terminator sorceror the warlord trait that gives the reroll 1 to hit aura. So, now your termi sorceror also becomes a chaos lord as well.
With the new rules, forgefiends being able to fire into melee definitely makes them better, but if I take the jaws, then I lose the ectoplasma cannon and its blast ability. Maybe one with jaws and one with the cannon.
Not Online!!! wrote: Considering the pts balance for weapons also just got fethed via gw turning everything into divisible by 5/10....
Explain to me how a flammer even can attempt to compete?
Oh heavens yes I wanted the flamer to be fun too :( I love the idea of flamers as a weapon of war in this setting. So brutal... except not on the table top. Arson seems like such a chaos-ey thing to do.
at one point in time, i wanted to make a dragonwarrior warband, you know, the renegades beeing in love with flamers and melta...
ArcaneHorror wrote: With the new rules, forgefiends being able to fire into melee definitely makes them better, but if I take the jaws, then I lose the ectoplasma cannon and its blast ability. Maybe one with jaws and one with the cannon.
yea but if you were running 3 thats another 75pts. Starts getting a lil bit expensive.
Latro_ wrote: 1's inst always instant death i dont think cmd re-roll is restricted but you can still re-roll to hit.
Also nothing stopping a lord still giving you a re-roll 1 to hit.
It was changed so that plasma guns on get hot on unmodified ones, which is a buff because -1 to hit no longer makes your gun more likely to explode. You can still reroll it, it's only the end result that matters.
On a similar note, I'm really liking Helbrutes w/ Fist/Scourge and Plasma Cannon. Blast has come in handy for me against 6-model squads of Aggressors and Centurions and it serves as a pretty nice follow-up/bodyguard for a Daemon Prince.
Plasma in general seems to be ideal for CSM right now. We're already a mid-field army and we can always use more high strength, high AP, and D2 weapons.
I'm currently brewing:
Spoiler:
Alpha Legion
Devastation Battery Battalion
1 Daemon Prince w/ Wings and 2x Malefic Talons - Warptime or Diabolic Strength
1 Daemon Prince w/ Wings and 2x Malefic Talons - Clandestine, Intoxicating Elixir, & Diabolic Strength or Warptime
1 Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor with Combi-Melta and Chainfist - Armourbane & Daemon's Eye
- I've had to cut Obliterators because they are feeling really bad with the price hike and losing the reroll, but Havocs still benefit greatly
1 Helbrute w/ Plasma Cannon and Helbrute Fist w/ Combi-Bolter
1 Helbrute w/ Plasma Cannon and Helbrute Fist w/ Combi-Bolter
- They are fast enough to stay within the aura of Daemon Princes and provide an excellent follow-up.
10 Chaos Space Marines, Sarge has Combi-Bolter & Chainsword, 2 Plasma Guns
10 Chaos Space Marines, Sarge has Combi-Bolter & Chainsword, 2 Plasma Guns
10 Chaos Space Marines, Sarge has Combi-Bolter & Chainsword, 2 Plasma Guns
5 Chaos Bikers w/ 2 Flamers and a Combi-Flamer, Chainswords replacing Pistols on the others.
5 Havocs w/ 4 Lascannons
5 Havocs w/ 4 Lascannons
1 Predator w/ Autocannon and Heavy Bolters
2000 on the nose.
I feel that this list has a ton of board pressure. It can alpha strike with the Prince slingshot if needed, followed up by another Prince, 2 Helbrutes, and Bikers.
The rest is a potent firebase that can safely move up the board with no penalties to shoot.
The Havocs ignore cover, are fairly durable, and eat tanks. I could definitely see an argument for dropping the Predator for an Autocannon Forgefiend.
I also don't think it would really work with any other Legion. That -1 to hit is still pretty critical to making Helbrutes and Havocs anything close to viable. Even then, it's very tempting to switch to 2 Patrols/1 Battalion and 1 Patrol to pick up a Sorceror and a Lord Discordant.
why you keep thiking as in 8th ed? ANYTHING (almost) went up, we will see an edition close to 4th or 5ht editions, time to ponder what put in list and dont relay on 200+ model to flood the table and win the game playing maybe 3 turns.
Latro_ wrote: 1's inst always instant death i dont think cmd re-roll is restricted but you can still re-roll to hit.
Also nothing stopping a lord still giving you a re-roll 1 to hit.
It was changed so that plasma guns on get hot on unmodified ones, which is a buff because -1 to hit no longer makes your gun more likely to explode. You can still reroll it, it's only the end result that matters.
On a similar note, I'm really liking Helbrutes w/ Fist/Scourge and Plasma Cannon. Blast has come in handy for me against 6-model squads of Aggressors and Centurions and it serves as a pretty nice follow-up/bodyguard for a Daemon Prince.
Plasma in general seems to be ideal for CSM right now. We're already a mid-field army and we can always use more high strength, high AP, and D2 weapons.
I'm currently brewing:
Spoiler:
Alpha Legion
Devastation Battery Battalion
1 Daemon Prince w/ Wings and 2x Malefic Talons - Warptime or Diabolic Strength
1 Daemon Prince w/ Wings and 2x Malefic Talons - Clandestine, Intoxicating Elixir, & Diabolic Strength or Warptime
1 Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor with Combi-Melta and Chainfist - Armourbane & Daemon's Eye
- I've had to cut Obliterators because they are feeling really bad with the price hike and losing the reroll, but Havocs still benefit greatly
1 Helbrute w/ Plasma Cannon and Helbrute Fist w/ Combi-Bolter
1 Helbrute w/ Plasma Cannon and Helbrute Fist w/ Combi-Bolter
- They are fast enough to stay within the aura of Daemon Princes and provide an excellent follow-up.
10 Chaos Space Marines, Sarge has Combi-Bolter & Chainsword, 2 Plasma Guns
10 Chaos Space Marines, Sarge has Combi-Bolter & Chainsword, 2 Plasma Guns
10 Chaos Space Marines, Sarge has Combi-Bolter & Chainsword, 2 Plasma Guns
5 Chaos Bikers w/ 2 Flamers and a Combi-Flamer, Chainswords replacing Pistols on the others.
5 Havocs w/ 4 Lascannons
5 Havocs w/ 4 Lascannons
1 Predator w/ Autocannon and Heavy Bolters
2000 on the nose.
I feel that this list has a ton of board pressure. It can alpha strike with the Prince slingshot if needed, followed up by another Prince, 2 Helbrutes, and Bikers.
The rest is a potent firebase that can safely move up the board with no penalties to shoot.
The Havocs ignore cover, are fairly durable, and eat tanks. I could definitely see an argument for dropping the Predator for an Autocannon Forgefiend.
I also don't think it would really work with any other Legion. That -1 to hit is still pretty critical to making Helbrutes and Havocs anything close to viable. Even then, it's very tempting to switch to 2 Patrols/1 Battalion and 1 Patrol to pick up a Sorceror and a Lord Discordant.
Not really a fan of the predator, also wouldn't 6 5 man suqds be a better option? more split fire and less blast weaponry?
Not really a fan of the predator, also wouldn't 6 5 man suqds be a better option? more split fire and less blast weaponry?
On the Predator: I think it really comes down to personal preference. I'd definitely like to stick some more Butcher Cannons in there instead. It does dish out D3, which I definitely like.
For the troops: It becomes harder to take advantage of the Lord's aura. Also, with how controlling objectives works, I'm finding that I prefer to have more bodies in a squad to persist.
All that being said, I'm going to test out smaller squads + 1-2 Rhinos to block LoS for Havoc protection.
Not really a fan of the predator, also wouldn't 6 5 man suqds be a better option? more split fire and less blast weaponry?
On the Predator: I think it really comes down to personal preference. I'd definitely like to stick some more Butcher Cannons in there instead. It does dish out D3, which I definitely like.
For the troops: It becomes harder to take advantage of the Lord's aura. Also, with how controlling objectives works, I'm finding that I prefer to have more bodies in a squad to persist.
All that being said, I'm going to test out smaller squads + 1-2 Rhinos to block LoS for Havoc protection.
aye, maybee a defieler instead of a predator, considering it didn't go up really?
Wow shocker... The Chaos Index FAQ got updated and the Sonic Dreadnought in still and option for Emperor's Children in the 9th Edition. So, 125 pts for two Blastmasters, a Doom Siren, and a Power Scourge. So bad at all considering the Blastermaster has blast in both firing modes, apparently. You can fire them into combat but you have the Doom Siren and Power Scourge for that.
Latro_ wrote: 1's inst always instant death i dont think cmd re-roll is restricted but you can still re-roll to hit.
Also nothing stopping a lord still giving you a re-roll 1 to hit.
It was changed so that plasma guns on get hot on unmodified ones, which is a buff because -1 to hit no longer makes your gun more likely to explode. You can still reroll it, it's only the end result that matters.
On a similar note, I'm really liking Helbrutes w/ Fist/Scourge and Plasma Cannon. Blast has come in handy for me against 6-model squads of Aggressors and Centurions and it serves as a pretty nice follow-up/bodyguard for a Daemon Prince.
Plasma in general seems to be ideal for CSM right now. We're already a mid-field army and we can always use more high strength, high AP, and D2 weapons.
I'm currently brewing:
Spoiler:
Alpha Legion
Devastation Battery Battalion
1 Daemon Prince w/ Wings and 2x Malefic Talons - Warptime or Diabolic Strength
1 Daemon Prince w/ Wings and 2x Malefic Talons - Clandestine, Intoxicating Elixir, & Diabolic Strength or Warptime
1 Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor with Combi-Melta and Chainfist - Armourbane & Daemon's Eye
- I've had to cut Obliterators because they are feeling really bad with the price hike and losing the reroll, but Havocs still benefit greatly
1 Helbrute w/ Plasma Cannon and Helbrute Fist w/ Combi-Bolter
1 Helbrute w/ Plasma Cannon and Helbrute Fist w/ Combi-Bolter
- They are fast enough to stay within the aura of Daemon Princes and provide an excellent follow-up.
10 Chaos Space Marines, Sarge has Combi-Bolter & Chainsword, 2 Plasma Guns
10 Chaos Space Marines, Sarge has Combi-Bolter & Chainsword, 2 Plasma Guns
10 Chaos Space Marines, Sarge has Combi-Bolter & Chainsword, 2 Plasma Guns
5 Chaos Bikers w/ 2 Flamers and a Combi-Flamer, Chainswords replacing Pistols on the others.
5 Havocs w/ 4 Lascannons
5 Havocs w/ 4 Lascannons
1 Predator w/ Autocannon and Heavy Bolters
2000 on the nose.
I feel that this list has a ton of board pressure. It can alpha strike with the Prince slingshot if needed, followed up by another Prince, 2 Helbrutes, and Bikers.
The rest is a potent firebase that can safely move up the board with no penalties to shoot.
The Havocs ignore cover, are fairly durable, and eat tanks. I could definitely see an argument for dropping the Predator for an Autocannon Forgefiend.
I also don't think it would really work with any other Legion. That -1 to hit is still pretty critical to making Helbrutes and Havocs anything close to viable. Even then, it's very tempting to switch to 2 Patrols/1 Battalion and 1 Patrol to pick up a Sorceror and a Lord Discordant.
No combi-plasmas on the CSM?
Oblits haven't really gotten any worse. Their increase wasn't disproportional to the average increase.
Also, forgive me if I'm wrong but we haven't seen a list of HQs that will receive the 'Supreme Commander' keyword yet have we? I would have thought that should be included in these recent FAQs.
Does that mean we can expect further FAQs?
Oblits haven't really gotten any worse. Their increase wasn't disproportional to the average increase.
You can't use a CP to reroll a weapon stat anymore so you're stuck with worse RNG stats or playing Iron Warriors.
Its not great, but it's not going to stop them from being what they are. They're just a bit less reliable. This isn't enough of a change to have their role be usurped by another unit as Havocs are still fragile, and Plasma Terminators are still much shorter range.
Oblits haven't really gotten any worse. Their increase wasn't disproportional to the average increase.
You can't use a CP to reroll a weapon stat anymore so you're stuck with worse RNG stats or playing Iron Warriors.
Its not great, but it's not going to stop them from being what they are. They're just a bit less reliable. This isn't enough of a change to have their role be usurped by another unit as Havocs are still fragile, and Plasma Terminators are still much shorter range.
This is fair. I love Obliterators and own 8 of them. They’re always at least Assault 6 at S7 AP-1 D1 on a durable, deep striking platform and you roll for stats before picking a target.
Maybe they’d have a good home in a Daemon Engine package or at least with a Master of Possession? Infernal Power is very strong and you can also cast Cursed Earth or Mutated Invigoration. Or perhaps something more aggressive like possessed.
Oblits haven't really gotten any worse. Their increase wasn't disproportional to the average increase.
You can't use a CP to reroll a weapon stat anymore so you're stuck with worse RNG stats or playing Iron Warriors.
Its not great, but it's not going to stop them from being what they are. They're just a bit less reliable. This isn't enough of a change to have their role be usurped by another unit as Havocs are still fragile, and Plasma Terminators are still much shorter range.
This is fair. I love Obliterators and own 8 of them. They’re always at least Assault 6 at S7 AP-1 D1 on a durable, deep striking platform and you roll for stats before picking a target.
Maybe they’d have a good home in a Daemon Engine package or at least with a Master of Possession? Infernal Power is very strong and you can also cast Cursed Earth or Mutated Invigoration. Or perhaps something more aggressive like possessed.
It looks like Chaos is going to be moving towards using lots of durable hybrid weapon daemon engines now with a mid-field pressure strat, so I think Oblits will be even more essential than ever as they'll fit right in with a bunch of forgefiends, venomcrawlers, and even defilers.
Are there any spreadsheets of the points changes floating about? Me and my buddy looking to draft up some lists and give them a whirl so we have an idea of things before the edition truly hits.
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote: Are there any spreadsheets of the points changes floating about? Me and my buddy looking to draft up some lists and give them a whirl so we have an idea of things before the edition truly hits.
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote: Are there any spreadsheets of the points changes floating about? Me and my buddy looking to draft up some lists and give them a whirl so we have an idea of things before the edition truly hits.
Not really a fan of the predator, also wouldn't 6 5 man suqds be a better option? more split fire and less blast weaponry?
On the Predator: I think it really comes down to personal preference. I'd definitely like to stick some more Butcher Cannons in there instead. It does dish out D3, which I definitely like.
For the troops: It becomes harder to take advantage of the Lord's aura. Also, with how controlling objectives works, I'm finding that I prefer to have more bodies in a squad to persist.
All that being said, I'm going to test out smaller squads + 1-2 Rhinos to block LoS for Havoc protection.
If I am going to run predators, I would consider 3 for the kill shot. And I would also definitely consider Norlith crown. Its quite cheap now, and since its a chaos fortification, it returns 1 cp, so you don't lose any CP adding it to your army. It creates a big ever growing 5++ aura bubble which not just your predators, but a lot of your other troops can benefit from. And since your predators can now move and fire without any -1 to hit, the Norlith crown won't constrain your predators to being stationary that much since it has a pretty big base.
The crown itself is tough too. And if they want to blow it up to get rid of your invul bubble, that's probably at least one whole turn of shooting gone where they aren't targeting your predators, in which case it has done it job well enough.
Not really a fan of the predator, also wouldn't 6 5 man suqds be a better option? more split fire and less blast weaponry?
On the Predator: I think it really comes down to personal preference. I'd definitely like to stick some more Butcher Cannons in there instead. It does dish out D3, which I definitely like.
For the troops: It becomes harder to take advantage of the Lord's aura. Also, with how controlling objectives works, I'm finding that I prefer to have more bodies in a squad to persist.
All that being said, I'm going to test out smaller squads + 1-2 Rhinos to block LoS for Havoc protection.
If I am going to run predators, I would consider 3 for the kill shot. And I would also definitely consider Norlith crown. Its quite cheap now, and since its a chaos fortification, it returns 1 cp, so you don't lose any CP adding it to your army. It creates a big ever growing 5++ aura bubble which not just your predators, but a lot of your other troops can benefit from. And since your predators can now move and fire without any -1 to hit, the Norlith crown won't constrain your predators to being stationary that much since it has a pretty big base.
The crown itself is tough too. And if they want to blow it up to get rid of your invul bubble, that's probably at least one whole turn of shooting gone where they aren't targeting your predators, in which case it has done it job well enough.
Didn't Killshot get removed for loyalists? I'm not sure it'll be around for us much longer.
Oblits haven't really gotten any worse. Their increase wasn't disproportional to the average increase.
You can't use a CP to reroll a weapon stat anymore so you're stuck with worse RNG stats or playing Iron Warriors.
Its not great, but it's not going to stop them from being what they are. They're just a bit less reliable. This isn't enough of a change to have their role be usurped by another unit as Havocs are still fragile, and Plasma Terminators are still much shorter range.
This is fair. I love Obliterators and own 8 of them. They’re always at least Assault 6 at S7 AP-1 D1 on a durable, deep striking platform and you roll for stats before picking a target.
Maybe they’d have a good home in a Daemon Engine package or at least with a Master of Possession? Infernal Power is very strong and you can also cast Cursed Earth or Mutated Invigoration. Or perhaps something more aggressive like possessed.
On the subject of Oblits. Good players will still be able to screen out deep strikers, especially cos the board has now gotten smaller.. Guardsmen infantry are still 5 points per model. And even leaving that aside, a lot of armies will now tend towards high pressure pushing to the middle of the board, as everyone will soon realise how important it is to contest the midboard objectives. Sp, Oblits can be screened from good targets by a good player. Any good player will know how devastating a squad of Oblits can be on the turn they deep strike in.
Having said that, Obits are 105 points each now. Putting 3 into deep strike means putting 315 points into deep strike just from that unit alone. Given even CSM also wants to push to the midboard, we have to consider the disadvantages of fighting with just 1685 points on the board for as much as two of our opponent turns if he goes first. Its a rather big numberial disadvantage.
I am actually leaning towards fielding single or double oblits instead of three. Not quite as big a commitement to points in deep strike. And also, its a smaller footprint for 1 or 2 Oblits to deep strike down on, so it may be alot harder to zone out against. And 1 Oblit is 105 points, but opponent still has to consider that with Cacophony, thats still 12 shots, could easily wreck a tank. Plus with 1 Oblit, I would not hesitate to deep strike it into the rear, shoot it and then charge it into a tank just to turn off its blast weapons and force it to shoot me for one turn.
Even the psychological impact of just having 1 Oblit in deep strike may force your opponent to play a lot more defensively than he would have, and that might end up losing him the game as you take advantage of that to push up with the rest of your entire army.
I am feeling more and more strongly that CSM will run spearhead detachments as our main detachments instead of batallion in 9th ed. Our heavy support choices are much stronger than our troop choices and we all acknowledge that our troops choices are bad compared to other factions. So, no point spending more points than we need to to make them "average". Might as well go for spearhead so that we bring less troops and now we can bring more heavy support.
I also feel that Demon princes with wings and lord discordants are a trap now. Both are pushing 200 points. Our demon engine vehicles are much cheaper on a per model basis. So are any other decent unit. Heck even a squad of 5 terminators are alot cheaper than 200 points for us. I am going to experiment with going character lite so that I can maximise the number of points I put into units.
The thing we need to consider is this. For 100+ points, space marines can field a unit of intercessors that can take objectives, can shoot well, can fight well, and yet, are also quite sturdy because they are 2W each. Its a very well rounded unit and its a Troop choice for marines. Then add all the other slots. They can have multiple such 100+ point units all over the board contesting all of the midboard objectives. 1 for 1, our CSM squad will lose to such an inteccesor squad. So, we have to think about other units that can or might be able to stand up against this. (because all else being equal, both of us have the same points). So, its quite possible that a far off, near the edge objective might end up with just one such unit on either side duking it out for control.
Leaving aside obsec, then a vehicle is a decent choice in a 1 v 1 unit situation over an objective. Because our daemon engines and hellbrutes can shoot and fight. And at T7, they are a tough nut for an intercessor unit to crack. Assuming a hellbrute or a daemon engine is left a lone to fight a squad of inteccesors, I would say the hellbute or daemon engine should eventually win. Though we may have to lose that objective for 1 turn initially because the intercessors have obsec. But once they get killed off in a 1 v 1 unit situation. Then we start to have a good advanrage, and this then forces the opponent to have to divert more resources towards that objective, or if he doesn't then the lone vehicle can just stand there until the end of the game, claiming that objective.
This kind of supports my thoughts on single oblits. 1 oblit is 105 points, Shoots very well, and is no slouch at fighting too. It is the the perfect unit on its own to deep strike into far off places, and put alot of pressure on a lightly defended spot. And yet, its not so expensive putting 1 or 2 such units into reserve will weaken the rest of your army that much. Small footprint, yet cannot be ignored. The only thing is we need all those heavy support slots, so thats why I would say spearhead detachment is the way to go for us.
Didn't Killshot get removed for loyalists? I'm not sure it'll be around for us much longer.
Until they get around to coming out with a new codex for us (not sure when that will be), I am pretty sure killshot is still a thing for us.
So with the emphasis on mobility, lethality and durability, has anyone looked at bikes? Between movement, 2 wounds, 3 combibolters and the potential to add 2 plasma/melta and a combiplasma/melta, for 114 points... I don’t think it’s that bad of a deal and they can put 3 melta shots up a tank’s tail pipe, or 6 plasma shots into a flanked elite squad, and 12 Bolter shots into anything squishy enough to warrant that, while being able to charge anything weakened enough to hit with 10 attacks on the charge and potentially contest/seize an objective.
Bikes are decent for us, So yes. I would consider bikes too, if I had the points ... lol It would probably be heavy support > elites > fast attacks. So, the question is by the time you max your compulsory character, min troop slots and then your heavy support and elite choices, do you still have points left for fast attack.
Because heavy support and elites have the beefiness to take and hold an objective and shoot well too. In comparision, bikes don't really want to sit on an objective. And their durability is likely to be less on a unit to unit comparision.
Definitely something I'd think could be useful. Outflanking them as a solid possibility too.
Thinking up Daemon Engine focused lists I'd had a thought I didn't expect. Are Mutilators worth considering?
Small footprint. Cheap 105. Benefit from the Possession auras. Focus on mid board makes their movement less of a liability. Take up minimal room in reserves to put pressure somewhere or drop in to bail out something in your zone (can someone reiterate the restrictions on deep striking in your own zone nearly right into melee?)
The issue with mutilators is their movement. We better make sure they get the charge in, else they are going to do nothing and then get shot at. At least Oblits will definitely pull their weight on the turn they deep strike in.
If I was running Emperor's children, so I can use the strategem to give my mutilators a super high chance to get into combat on the turn they come in, I would consider them. If they were the only unit I have in deep strike.
Its an interesting consideration, now that you brought them up.
Mutilators are definitely beefy relative to their points. Especially now that everything else went up in points. I think the focus on objectives has changed the entire game somehwat. Before, the opponent could take their time, eliminating other priority shooting threats and then come back to killing your mutilators. But now, they have to consider that if your mutilators are on an objective, they are losing VP points to you if they don't take care of that unit..
Alpha legion mutilators might be a consideration. Use forward operatives, scout move them 9 inches up and then move advance them onto a table edge midboard objective turn 1. Now opponent has to deal with them. Is forward operatives still a scout move 9 inches up, or is it now deploy 9 inches away ? They keep changing that strategem until I also can't remember whats the latest iteration... lol
Maybe someone can do the math for a unit of intercessors shooting and then charging into a unit of Mutilators on an objective. Who would eventually win and how many rounds of combat would it take on average?
I am feeling more and more strongly that CSM will run spearhead detachments as our main detachments instead of batallion in 9th ed. Our heavy support choices are much stronger than our troop choices and we all acknowledge that our troops choices are bad compared to other factions. So, no point spending more points than we need to to make them "average". Might as well go for spearhead so that we bring less troops and now we can bring more heavy support.
I also feel that Demon princes with wings and lord discordants are a trap now. Both are pushing 200 points. Our demon engine vehicles are much cheaper on a per model basis. So are any other decent unit. Heck even a squad of 5 terminators are alot cheaper than 200 points for us. I am going to experiment with going character lite so that I can maximise the number of points I put into units.
Troops still feel relevant, especially now that Actions are a thing.
Originally, I wrote "I think at 200 pts, flying DP's are still incredibly relevant." in this spot and started working out the following reasons:
1. They still have character protection on top of a 12" move and decent durability.
2. Especially with double Talons, they will chew through primaris, chaff, and vehicles, especially if you invest in buffs.
Without any relics or charging, a 2x Talon DP will kill 3.02 Primaris bodies per round of combat.
- If charging, that goes up to 3.46.
- With Intoxicating Elixir (no charge), that's 4.32 and with a charge, 4.86.
- Tack on Diabolic Strength (no charge), that's 4.86, and 5.4 with charge.
Of course, if you're only charging Primaris, that doesn't feel too great as you're wasting some precious S10.
3. Flying affords us the ability to punch planes.
Against a Hemlock Wraithfighter, we can put out an average 6.91 wounds with just a charge or 8.64 wounds with the previously mentioned buffs.
I got to about this point and looked at the old cost of 165 points and...yeah...
I quickly ran the math for a Lord w/ Jump Pack and Thunder Hammer (145) and he can smack that Hemlock for 6.48 wounds on a basic charge, up to 11.34 with the same buffs and that can fight twice.
A Power Fist shaves off 30 points (and no -1 to hit, but d3 damage sucks) and will do 5.4 with a basic charge up to 9.45 with buffs.
Even those don't feel great as you're losing durability, volume of attacks against infantry, and a psychic power (you can fight twice though with the Khorne strat).
CSM as a faction feel really awkward right now.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Is forward operatives still a scout move 9 inches up, or is it now deploy 9 inches away ? They keep changing that strategem until I also can't remember whats the latest iteration... lol
macluvin wrote: Probably the classic greater than 9” away from enemy units.
If this is in answer to my query I don't think it is. It was from something early on. Can't remember if it was any units in reserve or specifically the new outflanking version (Also is there a distinction between the two?)
Something to the effect of: If arriving on your table edge can be placed directly into melee but it wasn't worded "completely" so you could chain your way deeper onto the board.
Also wondering what shenanigans you could add with some Lindsay40k style Daemonkin with the Mutilators. Khorne reroll charges, Slaanesh run and charge + Warptime, Nurgle Tree etc.
First thought is Khorne Daemon Patrol or leaving points aside for Slimux.
I am feeling more and more strongly that CSM will run spearhead detachments as our main detachments instead of batallion in 9th ed. Our heavy support choices are much stronger than our troop choices and we all acknowledge that our troops choices are bad compared to other factions. So, no point spending more points than we need to to make them "average". Might as well go for spearhead so that we bring less troops and now we can bring more heavy support.
I also feel that Demon princes with wings and lord discordants are a trap now. Both are pushing 200 points. Our demon engine vehicles are much cheaper on a per model basis. So are any other decent unit. Heck even a squad of 5 terminators are alot cheaper than 200 points for us. I am going to experiment with going character lite so that I can maximise the number of points I put into units.
Troops still feel relevant, especially now that Actions are a thing.
Originally, I wrote "I think at 200 pts, flying DP's are still incredibly relevant." in this spot and started working out the following reasons:
1. They still have character protection on top of a 12" move and decent durability.
2. Especially with double Talons, they will chew through primaris, chaff, and vehicles, especially if you invest in buffs.
Without any relics or charging, a 2x Talon DP will kill 3.02 Primaris bodies per round of combat.
- If charging, that goes up to 3.46.
- With Intoxicating Elixir (no charge), that's 4.32 and with a charge, 4.86.
- Tack on Diabolic Strength (no charge), that's 4.86, and 5.4 with charge.
Of course, if you're only charging Primaris, that doesn't feel too great as you're wasting some precious S10.
3. Flying affords us the ability to punch planes.
Against a Hemlock Wraithfighter, we can put out an average 6.91 wounds with just a charge or 8.64 wounds with the previously mentioned buffs.
I got to about this point and looked at the old cost of 165 points and...yeah...
I quickly ran the math for a Lord w/ Jump Pack and Thunder Hammer (145) and he can smack that Hemlock for 6.48 wounds on a basic charge, up to 11.34 with the same buffs and that can fight twice.
A Power Fist shaves off 30 points (and no -1 to hit, but d3 damage sucks) and will do 5.4 with a basic charge up to 9.45 with buffs.
Even those don't feel great as you're losing durability, volume of attacks against infantry, and a psychic power (you can fight twice though with the Khorne strat).
CSM as a faction feel really awkward right now.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Is forward operatives still a scout move 9 inches up, or is it now deploy 9 inches away ? They keep changing that strategem until I also can't remember whats the latest iteration... lol
It's a 9" move.
The issue I have is that we don't really want to risk flying our demon prince solo to an edge of the board mid point objective. That would risk letting the opponent snipe it to death because it would not be within 3 inches of another unit. If we back that up with a suitably sturdy unit, or an ob sec CSM troop, then now we are talking about sending 260 to 275 points or more to take one objective. (if this is against just one intercessor unit, the points are working against us now, we are deploying far too many points compared to our opponent to go after the same one objective). And this is a character, so it risks us giving up VP points for kill character, or even kill warlord. So, I think if our demon prince is part of our main force going for a central objective, that's fine. But if its for a daring strike in the rear enemy lines objective, or because we want to contest a edge of the board midpoint objective, then I rather do that with a unit like a Termi squad, or a daemon engine, or even a mutilator rather than a Demon Prince. And in the first place, consider that there could be as many as 4 mid board objectives. We don't have 4 flying demon princes plus units to throw at all the objectives.
macluvin wrote: Probably the classic greater than 9” away from enemy units.
If this is in answer to my query I don't think it is. It was from something early on. Can't remember if it was any units in reserve or specifically the new outflanking version (Also is there a distinction between the two?)
Something to the effect of: If arriving on your table edge can be placed directly into melee but it wasn't worded "completely" so you could chain your way deeper onto the board.
Also wondering what shenanigans you could add with some Lindsay40k style Daemonkin with the Mutilators. Khorne reroll charges, Slaanesh run and charge + Warptime, Nurgle Tree etc.
First thought is Khorne Daemon Patrol or leaving points aside for Slimux.
Mutis have teleport strike as an ability which bypasses using CP to put in reserves, and gives it the ability to deep strike anywhere that is >9” away from enemy models. As for rule book strategic reserves, it explicitly states that if you have rules (like muti teleport strike) you use those in place of strategic reserves. Also the muti does this at the end of any movement phase... don’t know if you can use cp to put it in reserves.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or deploy using rule book reserves rules. Or if you would even want to.
If my maths is correct, 5 intercessors would be lucky to take 2 wounds off mutilators rapid firing them charging. Whereas the mutilators should, as long as they roll a 2 or more for damage kill at least 4 primaris in melee.
I am very interested in them now!
The issue I have is that we don't really want to risk flying our demon prince solo to an edge of the board mid point objective. That would risk letting the opponent snipe it to death because it would not be within 3 inches of another unit. If we back that up with a suitably sturdy unit, or an ob sec CSM troop, then now we are talking about sending 260 to 275 points or more to take one objective. (if this is against just one intercessor unit, the points are working against us now, we are deploying far too many points compared to our opponent to go after the same one objective). And this is a character, so it risks us giving up VP points for kill character, or even kill warlord. So, I think if our demon prince is part of our main force going for a central objective, that's fine. But if its for a daring strike in the rear enemy lines objective, or because we want to contest a edge of the board midpoint objective, then I rather do that with a unit like a Termi squad, or a daemon engine, or even a mutilator rather than a Demon Prince. And in the first place, consider that there could be as many as 4 mid board objectives. We don't have 4 flying demon princes plus units to throw at all the objectives.
Raptors? They're definitely more fragile than what's ideal, but they can be held in reserve and carry 3 plasma guns.
Helbrutes still move 8" and will laugh at intercessor squads, but no invuln really hurts.
I have a game against some flavor of Eldar tonight, so I'm trying:
Spoiler:
1 Daemon Prince w/ Wings and Sword (going to try out the AL relic sword)
1 Daemon Prince w/ Wings and 2x Malefic Talons
1 Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor with Combi-Bolter and Chainfist
5 Chaos Space Marines with Combi-Plasma/CS, 1 Plasma Gun
5 Chaos Space Marines with Combi-Plasma/CS, 1 Plasma Gun
5 Chaos Space Marines with Combi-Plasma/CS, 1 Plasma Gun
5 Chaos Bikers w/ 2 Flamers and a Combi-Flamer
5 Raptors w/ 2 plasma guns and a Combi-Plasma
I'm aiming for a lot of mobility and hopefully being able to consistently take down planes and bikes. It still feels terrible having fewer HQ slots. I can only imagine how bad Chaos Daemons feel.
An interesting quirk of 9th edition that I noticed today. If you took a black legion terminator armed with a combi-plasma, and you:
-Advance
-Fire both the bolter and plasma profiles at the same time
-Target someone benefiting from dense cover or a -1 to hit trait
All at the same time, that terminator would still be hitting on 4s, as to hit penalties don't stack.
Also, combi weapons are the same price as all their non-combi equivalents, so there's never any reason to take say a plasma gun or melta gun over a combi plasma or combi melta if you have a choice.
BlaxicanX wrote: Also, combi weapons are the same price as all their non-combi equivalents, so there's never any reason to take say a plasma gun or melta gun over a combi plasma or combi melta if you have a choice.
All that said, I would caution anyone against making modelling choices based upon the current 9th Ed points, as they are going to change...
BlaxicanX wrote: An interesting quirk of 9th edition that I noticed today. If you took a black legion terminator armed with a combi-plasma, and you:
-Advance
-Fire both the bolter and plasma profiles at the same time
-Target someone benefiting from dense cover or a -1 to hit trait
All at the same time, that terminator would still be hitting on 4s, as to hit penalties don't stack.
Also, combi weapons are the same price as all their non-combi equivalents, so there's never any reason to take say a plasma gun or melta gun over a combi plasma or combi melta if you have a choice.
Yeah, this is an interesting fact. And it makes sense not to overcharge also. Which is why I feel that we should assume plama gun's usefullness based on not overcharging. Its too painful to overcharge and lose a terminator, especially in this new edition where staying power is important.
That would definitely sting. On the other hand, five chosen with five plasma guns are only are only 125 points. I'm toying with the idea of taking maybe 2x10 terminators, a squad of plasma chosen and Abaddon and throwing them up the field, advancing and firing pretty much everything they have with abaddon's reroll. You could even overcharge the plasma guns if you needed to, stacking it with veterans of the long war to pop a vehicle in a pinch, and if you lose one who cares.
Nope. You'd be hurting yourself with the smaller base for his powerful aura and if you made a diorama of him standing atop dead Blood Angels on his new base it would be a nostalgic gem from Mackan.
I thought more about the mutilator option. And there is one strike against using Mutilators. If you are using Terminators, even after you have taken an objective, you still have a threat range of 24 inches from your shooting. And that covers a lot of space if you are at the midboard, or if you are on an enemy objective.
For mutilators, the issue is after you have taken an objective, you don't apply any more pressure if your opponent gives up that objective. The only pressure you exert is to take victory points by being on that objective. Its not a small thing obviously, but terminators do everything that mutilators are doing, plus they can also shoot.
But there could still be a case to be made for taking mutilators due to the rule of three. So, if you have maxed out on three terminator units already, and you still want more units that function like a termi unit, then its either oblits or mutilators.
That's fair. I'm very much going to try them for their Daemon synergy.
I'm bringing MoP already. GUO bringing them back, a 0+ save near trees, Virulent+ Vets making them wrecking balls etc.
Not shooting might lend them to performing the new actions without worrying about canceling them. Not in a rush to play games so haven't been studying up on the minutia yet. Being at all excited to work on Chaos stuff is nice though.
Might be the first time they've appealed at all and my Gal Vorbak and Blade Slaves will make them look good
Well, world eaters and Alpha legion both have that "scout move"strategy they can use on infantry units. So, both of these legions can use their respective strategems to scout move Mutilators forward by 9 inches. That would likely bring it to move and charge range of a midboard objective by turn 1. (given that we are separated by 24 inches at the start).
Emperor's children also have the strategem to replace a charge die with a 6, which gives a very high chance of success of a charge from deep strike suceeding.
however, both the alpha legion and world eater strategems can be countered by scouts already deployed on midboard objectives, which would push us back to our deployment zone. There is good and bad in that. Because while we start in our deployment zone. The prescense of scouts 9 inches away means that they have given us an easy kill on turn 1. If we go first, our mutilator squad can forward, and be in quite easy charge range of the scouts. We will likely make the charge, kill the scout unit and then consolidate forward. That would be at least 9 + 3 inches all in, which would have us end up pretty much at midboard anyway.
The problem is if they start first. A smart player would move the scouts to 1.1 inches away from our mutilators. So, now, our turn, we engage and kill the scout unit, but end up at most 4.1 inches forward from our deployment zone. To a mutilator unit, that is bad. We are nowhere near midboad.
The issue, which has always been the case with pure CSM, is that we literally have no scout units. It was possible to dip into nurgle daemons to get nurgling for scouts in 8th ed, but now, we have to pay CP to do that. Just one more thing to consider about 9th edition. Now that I think about it. Scouts are a double edged sword now. Would you really want to deploy them so far forward at 9 inches away from opponent, if you knew the opponent would definitely be able to charge and kill you ? Because who goes first is now down to a rolloff. So, if you lost the roll off and we start first, then placing your scouts so close just enabled us to move foward, charge and kill your scouts and then consolidate forward further, which means your scouts served as a slingshot for our mutilators.
I think you want to be deepstriking mutilators. With only 3 40mm bases you will find somewhere to drop them and at only 105pts just letting them sit and get linebacker isn't that bad a deal.
If you can drop them on an empty objective then they will take some sustained firepower to remove them and your opponent won't be particularly keen on charging them so won't able to contest the objective until the turn after they shoot them off it.
If you need them to clear an objective, hopefully they make the 9" charge, but even if they don't, whereas in 8th they were easy to kite, your opponent will want to stay where they are so next turn you're looking at a 5" charge.
You are presenting a unit that your opponent will want to deal with as soon as they can. Their three wounds means most anti-primaris or terminator weaponry is inefficient and they effectively give you 6 terminators worth of durability for 105pts. Not bad even if they never reach combat
Abaddon303 wrote: I think you want to be deepstriking mutilators. With only 3 40mm bases you will find somewhere to drop them and at only 105pts just letting them sit and get linebacker isn't that bad a deal.
If you can drop them on an empty objective then they will take some sustained firepower to remove them and your opponent won't be particularly keen on charging them so won't able to contest the objective until the turn after they shoot them off it.
If you need them to clear an objective, hopefully they make the 9" charge, but even if they don't, whereas in 8th they were easy to kite, your opponent will want to stay where they are so next turn you're looking at a 5" charge.
You are presenting a unit that your opponent will want to deal with as soon as they can. Their three wounds means most anti-primaris or terminator weaponry is inefficient and they effectively give you 6 terminators worth of durability for 105pts. Not bad even if they never reach combat
I kind of agree. There is a lot more flexibility if you opt to deep strike them in, and 105 points in deep strike isn't alot. The issue though is they have to make that 9 inch charge. If they fail the charge, then they are likely not on an objective, and they did nothing in the turn they came down, and are now exposed to being shot at. And other than the emperor's children strategem, there is no other way to increase the odds of making the charge (other than rerolling the charge).
(I kinda of find it rather sad that CSM has to reach so deep into its toolbox as to actually consider a unit like mutilators seriously for 9th edition ... ). Mutilators were seen as a total failure of a unit for so long ...
A unit of 3 obliterators are just so expensive... 315 points. Even if you use the shoot twice strategem, you need to kill 315 points on the turn you came down just to break even ...
These days, I feel that the most efficient point range is 100 to 150 points for a unit...
Eldenfirefly wrote: A unit of 3 obliterators are just so expensive... 315 points. Even if you use the shoot twice strategem, you need to kill 315 points on the turn you came down just to break even ...
These days, I feel that the most efficient point range is 100 to 150 points for a unit...
honestly what kills oblits for me, personally, is the fact that they are now even more unreliable, and it makes me miss the day where oblits were swiss army knives instead of hulking buff babies in need of extra care.
What did work surprisingly well though, fo me atleast in my test match, was drop units of 1's.
BUT, there is no point where'd i not take 5 terminators with cb caxe and a reaper autocannon above a Obliterator now.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Yeah, there will be days when you roll Str 7, AP 1, dmg 1 all the time and basically your obliterators are firing autocannons...
i mean i like autocannons, but with damage 2 and i also feel that 3 ac's with deepstrike don't make for a particulary exiting 105 pts model.
Otoh, if you roll average s8 ap2 d2 x6 is quite decent deal for 105 pts. the max payoff has lowered though, as you said , too many eggs in one basket...
Been thinking about more and thinking about the battle reports I have watched. I may be under-rating the power of mobility. That's why I may have to re-consider flying demon princes. (Although I still consider them very expensive at 200 points).
The smaller board means that a good deep strike is harder to achieve. Everyone going for objectives means that both of you are spread over the entire board fighting over objectives, this actually leaves less room for deep strikers or units from reserve to come in.
However, high mobility units are not constrained by this. This includes bikes units, and flying units. The key thing is not so much flying just one unit to one spot. The key thing is that a highly mobile unit can allow you to shift your focus on power quickly from one objective to another, allowing you to overwhelm one objective after another.
Picture this simplistic example: 1000 points on both sides. assume 6 objectives. 1 in the rear, and 4 midboard. Now, assuming equal distribution. Both sides put 200 points in their rear (whether shooting etc). And they then push 800 points forward onto the midboard.
Now, a slow army puts 200 points on each midboard objective, and stays there. The other player, has 150 points of units contesting each mid board, and then he has a 200 point demon prince flying from one objective to the other.
Now, assuming the 150 points he has on each objective can at least hold their own and somehow stay alive for a while fighting against 200 points, this 200 point flying demon prince will tip the odds in your favour and win you that objective where ever he goes. Because where ever he is, that demon prince will result in you having 350 points fighting against 200 points on an objective. Assuming you can wipe of out the enemy on that objective with that power advantage. Next turn, you are free to fly your prince over to the next objective, and do the same thing.
What happens if the opponent has this big center blob reinforced with scary heroes? In 9th edition, you don't have to fight it at all. The smart thing would be to totally avoid it, or tie it up with a unit he has to spend time killing. If he stays on that one objective forever, that's fine. Because then he is placing too many points on one objective.
In the meantime, your flying demon prince will continue to flit to the other weaker objectives, taking them out with the help of your other units. So, thinking about it this way, the power of fly lies in its mobility and being able to tip the power balance in your favor on an objective.
So, why won't eldar rule 9th edition? Because while they have mobility, they may not have durability. The equation I mentioned above works only if your 150 points can keep the opponent 200 points occupied on the objective while your flying demon prince flies from one to another. Eldar are mobile, and they are shooty, but they are generally not durable, nor do they want to get stuck fighting in on an objective. So, they will flit around and shoot to opponents who are sitting ON the objectives. If they force themselves to charge in, then they are giving up their advantages.
This is why the intercessor example is such a powerful baseline to measure against. Consider a squad of 5 interccessors and a squad of 5 assault intecessors sitting on one objective. That's 20W to chew through, and they can shoot and fight well, all for 200 points?
Shooty units in a way also help to "overload" the power balance on an objective, because if they are sitting unopposed on one objective, they can hold that while still shooting at an enemy unit on another objective, hence helping to "overload" the power balance on that other objective. However, obscuring terrain means they can't shoot everywhere. So, that is something to consider.
When you consider it like this. Abaddon totally needs to be with a shooty unit. Because he weighs in at over 200 points. He has to not only dominate one objective, he needs to enable the other unit or units around him to lend their shooting power on other objectives. Otherwise, the opponent can just choose to avoid that objective Abby and friends are on, and focus on dominating the other objectives.
Yeah, so I am kind of rethinking the power of a flying demon prince now. I was thinking of them in a vacumn doing at it alone against another unit on an objective. Its very different when the idea is to use the flying demon prince as the hammer alongside another unit that is already on the objective to win you that objective. And once the battle is won there, the demon prince flies to the next objective and repeats the same thing again.
Quoted from Sun Tze, the art of war:
“If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected .”
Looks like we need to learn from Sun Tze for 9th edition 40k warhammer !
I will probably dig up my Rhinos with havoc launchers back out, because between the price drop for the havoc launcher as a cheap anti horde weapon and the durability offered by a rhino,to contest the midfield it might be wroth it afterall to spend 80 pts on it..
Eldenfirefly wrote: When you consider it like this. Abaddon totally needs to be with a shooty unit. Because he weighs in at over 200 points. He has to not only dominate one objective, he needs to enable the other unit or units around him to lend their shooting power on other objectives. Otherwise, the opponent can just choose to avoid that objective Abby and friends are on, and focus on dominating the other objectives.
Yeah, so I am kind of rethinking the power of a flying demon prince now. I was thinking of them in a vacumn doing at it alone against another unit on an objective. Its very different when the idea is to use the flying demon prince as the hammer alongside another unit that is already on the objective to win you that objective. And once the battle is won there, the demon prince flies to the next objective and repeats the same thing again.
Starting to see how Black Legion will be the only top-tier competitive CSM army in 9th edition.
Going to explain why, but would like to start by getting this out of the way: static CSM gunlines won't work in 9th, for the following reasons.
- Too many ways to score points, you need to be on the move
- Changes to table size means a lot less time to hang back and shoot
- Changes to table size also means you won't get many games where you can shoot but your opponent can't
- Mid-range firepower is going to be a little more effective because of decreased board size. Bolters still don't matter, things like Chaincannons do.
Optimal play for Abaddon still means maximizing rerolls to hit on guns. Using him for cc is insignificant compared to boosting the accuracy of all nearby firepower by 50%. And he still has his auras.
So I've been thinking about how to take Abaddon out of the static gunline while retaining as much of that value as possible. And how to take advantage of those new mechanics along the way.
Optimal 9th edition Abaddon tactics are going to have him in a mobile firebase, surrounded by heavy weapons in units that can move and shoot without penalty. These lists are not going to try and win shootouts / melee engagements. They are going to selectively clear the way to deny victory points to your opponent, and this is going to reliably create insurmountable VP leads 3rd and 4th turn for Black Legion armies.
9th edition is a high scoring game. You really need to be picking up objectives each turn so you can score on them the next turn. Black Legion have a unique Stratagem called World Killers. For 3CP, you can deny your opponents objectives so long as you have a unit within 3" of the objective. And it works on every Black Legion unit on the board.
The potential for World Killers can't be overstated. Over a couple turns, you could swing 20+ VPs from your opponent to yourself. This makes it one of the most powerful Stratagem in 9th edition, and it plays perfectly with Abaddon's abilities. All you need to do is clear the way to a couple VPs held by your opponent, charge up with your fast attack, and make sure at least one model is within 3" at the end of the turn. Elite armies with low model count will have no defense, while Black Legion could be very selecting fighting hordes. The BL player could technically play to lose every model on the table (but one) and still prevail.
If you think about it, CSM are generally overcosted and outclassed coming into 9th edition. We don't want to fight head to head matchups, we want to play games that give us an advantage by negating the value of an opponent's force. This does exactly that. With the right lists, most opponents won't know what's happening until it's too late.
Here's what I think a Black Legion mobile firebase will look like:
- Abaddon will be surrounded by shooty units that can move and fire without penalty.
- He will still need another beatstick. Daemon Prince with Wings will be popular, Master of Execution will be poor man's option.
- Most times, he's going to have a Dark Apostle with him doing Illusory Supplication each turn.
- Other times, he's going to have a Master of Possessions with him doing Sacrifice or Cursed Earth.
- 3x Havocs will be an obvious choice for these lists.
- Contemptors may be a good choice for these lists.
- Autocannons, Missile Launchers and Chaincannons will be most popular big gun options.
- 10 man Cultist units will be popular, eating charges while avoiding the blast rule.
- Raptors, Mutilators, Spawn and other cheap, fast units will be doing the work on World Killers. It will be important to keep them cheap, they just need to stand somewhere for one turn. And it's important to have lots of them, you want some redundancy.
Bikes and Abaddon work so well. You can advance Ab and even if he rolls full advance they can keep up with him on standard move. Bolter discipline gives you 38 bolters hitting on 3s rerolling plus three specials. Drop vets and endless cacophony and you can reliably remove any troop unit.
I'm actually gonna try not taking any troops. I think Obsec is overrated. Focus on clearing your opponents troops and hit objectives with faster and tougher units, like you say techsoldaten, the BL strat can be used where needed early before you can destroy opponents Obsec.
I'd rather be taking more chosen or raptors or havocs that I feel are better value than CSM.
Like , i know that illusiory prayer can give you really some durability, but havocs are still 1W unit.
I also remain unconvinced on the raptors, compared to bikers.
I didn't post a list, just elements of what a list might look like.
The strength is being able to deny opponents the opportunity to score for a couple turns. You just have to get units in place to deny them.
Bikes are fast but Raptors deep strike. Land them in a strategic position and contest the turn you plan to use World Killers. Put small units of them all over the board to screw with your opponent.
As far as the havocs go, the point is to have mobile guns that shoot without penalty. Make the most out of Abaddon's aura. Their job is not to win firefights, but to clear the way to contest objectives. Maybe Contemptors do it better, worth thinking about.
This is a situation where I'd really need to think about using Scorpius Whirlwinds. With rerolls, 3 of them could delete a 5-man Intercessor squad each turn. The drawback is they have to sit still to fire twice.
Erm, Techsoldaten, the world killers strategem just turns off opponent's obsec if you are within 3 inches of that objective. It sounds great but it seems hard to pull off.
1) The most obvious way to use this, is to have your own obsec within 3 inches of that objective. That way, because you turned off enemy obsec, your obsec will win and so you are considered to be owning that objective instead of your opponent. This means that your idea of using raptors and other fast units is less ideal. Because Yes, they can be in range to use this strategem, but units like raptors or spawn are not Obsec. So, even if you turn off opponent obsec, then its down to model count. Do you have more models than him within 3 inches of that objective ? If you are using fragile units like raptors, it may be that you have less models than him. World killers would only come into play if the opponent had less obsec troop models within 3 inches of the objectives than you have raptors.
2) Now if you pushed even one model of a CSM troop within 3 inches (be it a CSM or a cultist) of an objective, and then you activated world killers, then you would automatically win that objective in that turn. Now the key thing is that you activate it at the start of your opponent's round because that is when the victory points for objectives are tallied up. This means that you have to get a troop like a cultist or CSM within 3 inches of a contested objective and it must be there until the start of the opponent's turn.
One obvious problem with that is that engagement range is 1 inch. So if the opponent has surrounded the objective well enough, its going to be hard to get within 3 inches without ending up in engagement range, and having to fight the opponent. And we know how well cultists can fight. CSM can do the trick because power armor at least is tankier, but well, do you want to play with lots of squads of CSM ?
The other problem is delivery. A raptor or chaos spawn can move around fast enough and try and zip within 3 inches of an objective. But not a CSM troop. Not unless you are putting them in a transport like a Rhino. Once you start doing that, your whole army composition is going to change alot from what you are thinking about.
So yeah. World Killers is interesting, but it comes with some conditions you have to satisfy. So, lets say you are facing 10 intercessors clustered around one objective. World killers will turn their obsec off. But you still have the challenge of outnumbering those 10 intercessors, or getting your troop within 3 inch and surviving close combat with 10 intercessors.
Also, I am in agreement with Not Online!!! about Rhinos. They are worth a close look now. Its a cheap vehicle with 10W, T7 that can shoot quite well if you put havoc launchers and combi weapons on them. And Str 4 weapons will take a long time to chew through a Rhino. The thing is you can put a troop in a Rhino, and that will give them the mobility you are talking about. Also, it takes a fair bit of shooting to take out a Rhino with a unit in it. Because first you have to destroy the Rhino before you can start shooting the unit in it. A Rhino doesn't mind charging into close combat with a bunch of intercessors. Their str 4 attacks probably won't kill it, and it can still shoot during its turn. Someone can do the math on how long it takes for a 5 man squad of intercessors to chew through a Rhino in close combat. I reckon it will take a while. If you put a combi melta or combi plasma on them, combined with the existing combi bolter, and you fire everything (because you already have a -1 to hit, to might as well fire with both the bolter and the special weapon together). That's like 6 bolter shots and 2 plasma or 6 bolter shots and 1 melta each round. This is not counting that at 5 points, Havoc launchers are probably one of the cheapest horde blast weapons CSM has now, and the Rhino can have those as well. I mean, sure they will die to anti tank, but then the opponent has to choose between shooting my Rhinos vs shooting my heavy support. Its always good to force such decisions on an opponent.
Like , i know that illusiory prayer can give you really some durability, but havocs are still 1W unit.
I also remain unconvinced on the raptors, compared to bikers.
I didn't post a list, just elements of what a list might look like.
The strength is being able to deny opponents the opportunity to score for a couple turns. You just have to get units in place to deny them.
Bikes are fast but Raptors deep strike. Land them in a strategic position and contest the turn you plan to use World Killers. Put small units of them all over the board to screw with your opponent.
As far as the havocs go, the point is to have mobile guns that shoot without penalty. Make the most out of Abaddon's aura. Their job is not to win firefights, but to clear the way to contest objectives. Maybe Contemptors do it better, worth thinking about.
This is a situation where I'd really need to think about using Scorpius Whirlwinds. With rerolls, 3 of them could delete a 5-man Intercessor squad each turn. The drawback is they have to sit still to fire twice.
i know, but my personal experience with the ilusion prayer lists i tested was that the list tends to become extremely brittle but hard.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Erm, Techsoldaten, the world killers strategem just turns off opponent's obsec if you are within 3 inches of that objective. It sounds great but it seems hard to pull off.
1) The most obvious way to use this, is to have your own obsec within 3 inches of that objective. That way, because you turned off enemy obsec, your obsec will win and so you are considered to be owning that objective instead of your opponent. This means that your idea of using raptors and other fast units is less ideal. Because Yes, they can be in range to use this strategem, but units like raptors or spawn are not Obsec. So, even if you turn off opponent obsec, then its down to model count. Do you have more models than him within 3 inches of that objective ? If you are using fragile units like raptors, it may be that you have less models than him. World killers would only come into play if the opponent had less obsec troop models within 3 inches of the objectives than you have raptors.
2) Now if you pushed even one model of a CSM troop within 3 inches (be it a CSM or a cultist) of an objective, and then you activated world killers, then you would automatically win that objective in that turn. Now the key thing is that you activate it at the start of your opponent's round because that is when the victory points for objectives are tallied up. This means that you have to get a troop like a cultist or CSM within 3 inches of a contested objective and it must be there until the start of the opponent's turn.
One obvious problem with that is that engagement range is 1 inch. So if the opponent has surrounded the objective well enough, its going to be hard to get within 3 inches without ending up in engagement range, and having to fight the opponent. And we know how well cultists can fight. CSM can do the trick because power armor at least is tankier, but well, do you want to play with lots of squads of CSM ?
The other problem is delivery. A raptor or chaos spawn can move around fast enough and try and zip within 3 inches of an objective. But not a CSM troop. Not unless you are putting them in a transport like a Rhino. Once you start doing that, your whole army composition is going to change alot from what you are thinking about.
So yeah. World Killers is interesting, but it comes with some conditions you have to satisfy. So, lets say you are facing 10 intercessors clustered around one objective. World killers will turn their obsec off. But you still have the challenge of outnumbering those 10 intercessors, or getting your troop within 3 inch and surviving close combat with 10 intercessors.
Just so everyone is clear, wording on World Killers:
"Use this Stratagem at the start of any battle ground. Until the end of that battle round, enemy units cannot use any abilities that allow them to control an objective marker it there are any BLACK LEGION units from your army within 3" of the centre of that objective marker, even if there are more enemy models within range of it."
So okay. Opponents can't use abilities like ObSec. You need 1 model in 3" of an objective at the start of your opponent's turn to deny. You need 1 model in 3" at the start of your turn to claim.
I have not seen the 9th edition rulebook yet. Is holding an objective an ability? Some units can't hold objectives, which made me think it's possible.
If it is, this is a lot more powerful than I've described.
Eldenfirefly wrote: What do you mean by Brittle but hard ? Not Online!!! I understand brittle, because Havocs are still 1W models, but hard? Hard in what sense?
Something can be hard, e.g. really durable, but also really weak to some other things like force from an unprepared side to the hard object.
So far, I always thought that world killers simply turned off obsec. I honestly am not sure. Don't have the 9th ed rulebook yet. But this kind of feels like you would get into a rules argument for sure. I thought basically being 3 inch from an objective would enable you to hold that objective if it was not contested. It didn't require any special "objective holding" ability.
Its like most units have the ability to charge and to fight in close combat, but we won't see "charge" and "fight in melee" listed as part of their abilities in their data sheet. Obsec is listed as an ability, so it seems to be what world killers is aimed at.
I like the look of Rhinos too. I plan on trying out some WE/CK lists utilising 3 Questoris-type knights and 3 rhinos with havoc and 2xcombibolters. From the batreps I've seen they will do good work, and they profit from the long shadow of chaos knights...
Eldenfirefly wrote: What do you mean by Brittle but hard ? Not Online!!! I understand brittle, because Havocs are still 1W models, but hard? Hard in what sense?
Something can be hard, e.g. really durable, but also really weak to some other things like force from an unprepared side to the hard object.
Something can be extremely hard (e.g. an invulnerable save) but at the same time extremely brittle ( limited ammount of 1W models.) in game terms.
Hardness is the quality of a material to not change form. Egg shells are harder and more brittle than a rubber band, for example. If I hit an egg with a hammer it will break. If I hit a rubber band with a hammer it won’t likely change much at all because of its elasticity and ductility. Toughness is the overall resilience based on those factors and probably some other one I am forgetting...
Eldenfirefly wrote: What do you mean by Brittle but hard ? Not Online!!! I understand brittle, because Havocs are still 1W models, but hard? Hard in what sense?
Something can be hard, e.g. really durable, but also really weak to some other things like force from an unprepared side to the hard object.
Something can be extremely hard (e.g. an invulnerable save) but at the same time extremely brittle ( limited ammount of 1W models.) in game terms.
Hardness is the quality of a material to not change form. Egg shells are harder and more brittle than a rubber band, for example. If I hit an egg with a hammer it will break. If I hit a rubber band with a hammer it won’t likely change much at all because of its elasticity and ductility. Toughness is the overall resilience based on those factors and probably some other one I am forgetting...
This , in game terms the listtype Tech proposes and with a Support invul prayer is brittle the invul is a Big boon sometimes, but weak when failed or ap- 1 shows up.it's also not particulary elastic because it Relies on a centercastle relying upon 2-3 specific auras.
Eldenfirefly wrote: What do you mean by Brittle but hard ? Not Online!!! I understand brittle, because Havocs are still 1W models, but hard? Hard in what sense?
Something can be hard, e.g. really durable, but also really weak to some other things like force from an unprepared side to the hard object.
Something can be extremely hard (e.g. an invulnerable save) but at the same time extremely brittle ( limited ammount of 1W models.) in game terms.
Hardness is the quality of a material to not change form. Egg shells are harder and more brittle than a rubber band, for example. If I hit an egg with a hammer it will break. If I hit a rubber band with a hammer it won’t likely change much at all because of its elasticity and ductility. Toughness is the overall resilience based on those factors and probably some other one I am forgetting...
This , in game terms the listtype Tech proposes and with a Support invul prayer is brittle the invul is a Big boon sometimes, but weak when failed or ap- 1 shows up.it's also not particulary elastic because it Relies on a centercastle relying upon 2-3 specific auras.
Well, I tried to be specific, it's not about survivability. It's about winning on points.
Even if there are no prayers / spells, it could get by just clearing the way to take objectives. You could lose 90% of the army by turn 4 and still have an overwhelming lead on points.
techsoldaten wrote: I have not seen the 9th edition rulebook yet. Is holding an objective an ability? Some units can't hold objectives, which made me think it's possible.
If it is, this is a lot more powerful than I've described.
All units except AIRCRAFT and FORTIFICATION can hold hold objectives. You don't need a ability to control objectives- raise the banners and other actions are optional secondaries. Holding objectives is based on whomever has the most models in range of the objective- 3 models can not contest or control an objective if there are 4 or more enemy models on the point, unless objective secured is in play.
It's for that reason that I'm skeptical of trying to skip out on troops choices and play so heavily around your strategem. Even if you turn off obsec, 5 guardsmen will overrule 3 bikes on an objective. Without obsec you're putting yourself in a position where it isn't enough to reach an objective, you have to have enough lethality to reduce the number of enemy models on it so that you can contest, and the less models you commit to taking a point, the more enemy models you'll need to kill. With obsec turned off, 5 raptors would need to reduce the size of an enemy squad on a point down to 5 in order for you to contest that objective- you'd need to reduce them to 4 models if you wanted to actually control it. 3 bikes would need to reduce the enemy squad to 3 models in order for you to contest it- 2 models in order for your bikes to control it.
If you're against a list with 50 intercessors and 2x5 man squads on each point in his backline, you can use world killers as much as you want, but unless you can clear 5 to 6 of them off the point in that turn you likely won't be contesting anything.
The idea of mobile midfielding is good, but it has to be with decently durable units. You want to have a strong midfield presence that's hard to shift and can reach out to contest or claim any objective. That means durable units, and hybrid melee+ranged will do very well.
Havocs have great firepower, and bikes have great movement, but both are far too fragile. They'll just got shot. You need more durability. Daemon Engines and Helbrutes/Contemptors are all going to do very well in this role. A big squad of Terminators backed by a Sorc for warptime and prescience will also get a lot done (especially combi-plasma.) And of course there's Oblits.
The idea would be to spread out across the midfield and potentially be able to focus a lot of firepower onto any objective, and also move some durable units onto it from anywhere. Bring your own CSM in rhinos to keep them safe long enough to get some work done.
Alpha Legion would work well for this due to their trait helping durability so much, and of course their strats are nice too.
Yoyoyo wrote: Spawn are now the cheapest unit per wound in the Chaos arsenal, at 5.75pts per wound they are even more economic than Cultists. Just an observation!
Spawn were all through 8atleast okay .
It's only issue is randomness but i think i will probably retool my ghost marines to be a Brigade , running 2 spawn 3 obliterators for the respective Slots 5 raptors.
It could work out...
Will think a bit on it tommorow.
ArcaneHorror wrote: With the new rules, forgefiends being able to fire into melee definitely makes them better, but if I take the jaws, then I lose the ectoplasma cannon and its blast ability. Maybe one with jaws and one with the cannon.
yea but if you were running 3 thats another 75pts. Starts getting a lil bit expensive.
Good point, jaws might be the way to go then. I did have the idea for a new ability for forgefiends that if they killed a model in a unit with the jaws, they could either fire a second time in melee or heal a wound. This could only happen once when fighting unit no matter how many models were killed. Also, the jaws attack should be ported over to the maulerfiend as an additional attack to make up for the price increase.
It's worth pointing out that while you may be able to shoot in combat with vehicles, you're taking a -1 penalty if you fire a heavy weapon.
A Foregefiend firing into combat with intercessors and then attacking the intercessors with daemon jaws is averaging two dead intercessors by the end of the phase. That's... okay, but not necessarily something I would want to try to build a strategy around.
BlaxicanX wrote: It's worth pointing out that while you may be able to shoot in combat with vehicles, you're taking a -1 penalty if you fire a heavy weapon.
A Foregefiend firing into combat with intercessors and then attacking the intercessors with daemon jaws is averaging two dead intercessors by the end of the phase. That's... okay, but not necessarily something I would want to try to build a strategy around.
How many does a maulerfiend kill? And how many does the forgefiend kill with shooting in the ~2 turns it spends moving up before it gets into melee?
Just to add to the discussion. It seems mechanised armies are back in a big way. Rhinos and all sorts of transports in all shapes and sizes are being used alot. The key thing is that they can rush troops to the midboard objectives fast, and after that, they make a great nuisance of themselves even after they have achieved their primary goal.
Observations are that if you can take the midboard objectives early and keep holding more of them than your opponent, its very hard for him to come back.
Once you are ahead in the objective VP points, even sacrificing most of your army, including your characters in order to preserve that lead is worth it. This is because the game only has 5 turns.
For example, turn 1, rush your Rhinos to the midboard, turn 2, your objec troops and the rest of your army piles on to the objective. And then you keep on throwing as much as you can onto into the fray so that you can hold at least 2 or 3, and hold more than your opponent. Keep that up from turn 2 to 4, and the gap between VPs gets untenable. Even if he has shot or killed most of your army by turn 4, its very hard for him to come back because he has only turn 4 or 5 to come back.
And the mechanic of counting up the VP for objectives at the start of your turn makes this even more pronounced. Let's say your opponent plans to play more "conservatively" and destroy more of your army before he plans to take back the midboard objectives. If he wants to start racking in more VPs than you by turn 4 and 5, he needs to shoot plus push you off the objectives and get his own troops onto those mid board objectives by turn 3 !!!
That is of course easier said than done if he took his own sweet time getting his army into position.
Consider: a "conservative" strategy by the opponent.
Turn 1, He lets you rush your Rhinos up, He marches his army up cautiously together, he focus his heavy support guns on your heavy support. So, the big guns trade fire, a lot of stuff obscured by terrain also.
Turn 2, you are all over the mid board with Rhinos, troops, and other units. Those just a bit further back and also well on their way to the midboard objectives. So, at this point, he continues to focus on clearing out your big guns, he is starting to fall behind. Because now you hold more. You might get 10 to 15 VP from main objectives while he gets 5.
Turn 3, at this point, if he is still not ready to make a big push to take the centre, he is in trouble, because you will once against get as much as 15 VP while he gets 5 again from main objectives. He may have totally desroyed all of your big guns, and you are now throwing characters and other elite, fast units all into the fray, and he is drawn into killing these "high priority" targets. You are now up to as much as 20 VP ahead just from main objectives.
Turn 4, he suddenly wakes up and start to realise he needs to catch up on Main objectives. He now throws all of his army onto those objectives. He has probably destroyed a big part of your fire power. But at this point, it may be too late. Even if he suceeds on pushing you off the midboard objectives this turn. He can't get those VP until turn 5. The main objectives VP is maybe even. lets say 10 to each. or 5, because all contested
Turn 5, most of your army is gone, he has taken most of the objectives, Its too late by now. He only gets 1 turn to enjoy getting 15 VP, you still get 5 maybe for holding a rear objective. Maybe he still has half an army left, and you have 2 units or 5 models. But the game ends at this point and he has lost the game.
The game has changed in a big way in 9th ed. Losing your heavy support shooting doesn't matter, losing even your characters doesn't matter. Even losing most of your army doesn't matter as long as you are ahead in VP and you keep that lead. Secondaries are important too, but in practise both sides will achieve some VP from secondaries. So unless your opponent was dumb and picked lousy secondaries while you managed to max out on a lot of yours, the difference in VP between secondaries is usually not a lot.
True enough but if you can score 2 objectives on every turn, you're still scoring 40 VP out of a possible 45. Unless I'm reading the mission format incorrectly.
for the few playtest...i can tell perhaps we will see mechanized chaos lists guess AL, mobile, durable and with intersting tricks
LOD JP sorcerer bunch of slaanes termies, mix or maulerfiends/defilers/venomcrawlers chaos marines and 1 unit of plague all on rhinos, this was my try. Tried something similar with DG, with 3 PBC ,3 FBD with fleshmower, 3 contemptors with double claw 2xDP and 2x7 plague on rhino sure it need to be tweaked with new 9th ed points
BlaxicanX wrote:It's for that reason that I'm skeptical of trying to skip out on troops choices and play so heavily around your strategem. Even if you turn off obsec, 5 guardsmen will overrule 3 bikes on an objective. Without obsec you're putting yourself in a position where it isn't enough to reach an objective, you have to have enough lethality to reduce the number of enemy models on it so that you can contest, and the less models you commit to taking a point, the more enemy models you'll need to kill. With obsec turned off, 5 raptors would need to reduce the size of an enemy squad on a point down to 5 in order for you to contest that objective- you'd need to reduce them to 4 models if you wanted to actually control it. 3 bikes would need to reduce the enemy squad to 3 models in order for you to contest it- 2 models in order for your bikes to control it.
If you're against a list with 50 intercessors and 2x5 man squads on each point in his backline, you can use world killers as much as you want, but unless you can clear 5 to 6 of them off the point in that turn you likely won't be contesting anything.
Good points.
So World Killers works 2 ways. If your unit has ObSec, it wins. If your opponent has ObSec, it comes down to who has the most models.
So if you can get that single Cultist within 3", you win. Otherwise, you need one more model than your opponent.
I didn't say it was wise to skip out on troops choices.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote:The idea of mobile midfielding is good, but it has to be with decently durable units. You want to have a strong midfield presence that's hard to shift and can reach out to contest or claim any objective. That means durable units, and hybrid melee+ranged will do very well.
Havocs have great firepower, and bikes have great movement, but both are far too fragile. They'll just got shot. You need more durability. Daemon Engines and Helbrutes/Contemptors are all going to do very well in this role. A big squad of Terminators backed by a Sorc for warptime and prescience will also get a lot done (especially combi-plasma.) And of course there's Oblits.
The idea would be to spread out across the midfield and potentially be able to focus a lot of firepower onto any objective, and also move some durable units onto it from anywhere. Bring your own CSM in rhinos to keep them safe long enough to get some work done.
Alpha Legion would work well for this due to their trait helping durability so much, and of course their strats are nice too.
I guess the reason I favor MSU for this list is targeting.
There's durability of the unit, meaning high T and Sv. Then there's durability of the list, meaning have lots of small units that individually pose a threat and make your opponent have to target each one individually.
You're right, Alpha Legion is going to stand up to counter fire better than Black Legion. At the same time, Abaddon is going to give full rerolls for shooting and morale immunity. I'm not sure the answer is obvious which one would be the best, defensive or offensive advantage. The point is not to win firefights but to grab objectives better than the other guy, and I always think that means being able to overwhelm in individual match ups.
Alpha Legion's other advantages may be Stratagems. Forward Operatives, Conceal and Renascent Infiltration are really good if you are trying to cap points.
Yoyoyo wrote:Spawn are now the cheapest unit per wound in the Chaos arsenal, at 5.75pts per wound they are even more economic than Cultists. Just an observation!
Yep. Plus they move faster and have a leadership debuff, which will probably be important.
And you know there's going to be at least one unsecured objective each game.
Eldenfirefly wrote:Just to add to the discussion. It seems mechanised armies are back in a big way. Rhinos and all sorts of transports in all shapes and sizes are being used alot. The key thing is that they can rush troops to the midboard objectives fast, and after that, they make a great nuisance of themselves even after they have achieved their primary goal.
Observations are that if you can take the midboard objectives early and keep holding more of them than your opponent, its very hard for him to come back.
Once you are ahead in the objective VP points, even sacrificing most of your army, including your characters in order to preserve that lead is worth it. This is because the game only has 5 turns.
For example, turn 1, rush your Rhinos to the midboard, turn 2, your objec troops and the rest of your army piles on to the objective. And then you keep on throwing as much as you can onto into the fray so that you can hold at least 2 or 3, and hold more than your opponent. Keep that up from turn 2 to 4, and the gap between VPs gets untenable. Even if he has shot or killed most of your army by turn 4, its very hard for him to come back because he has only turn 4 or 5 to come back.
Have a wierd feeling Rhino Rush is going to be something that happens in this edition.
In 5th and 6th, I used to rush Rhinos midfield, deploy the troops, then create a wall of Rhinos to block out shooting angles. Vehicles can't move in the shooting phase anymore and units can't disembark before the Rhino moves, which makes it harder to do something like that.
But there's something interesting about vehicles being able to shoot in combat. I could see combi-bolter / flamer Rhinos being used to block out charges because, again, a lot of games are going to be won by controlling objectives. If you can get between an opponent and an objective, you can limit their scoring.
Might be a steal for an 80 point Rhino that's a dedicated blocking instrument.
Hmm, I just thought of something depressing. Scouts are going to be able to block a turn 1 Rhino rush. Because they can deploy forward and block the path the Rhinos. If he gets to go first, then turn 1, he can move the scouts even nearer, spread them out in a line in front of the Rhinos to block. Meanwhile, his transports rush onto the midboard objective turn 1. So he sacrifices the scouts turn 1 to block our Rhinos, and then turn 2, he deploys his Rhinos to block us even more.
And CSM can't get scouts unless we soup in chaos daemons for Nurglings...
Another strategy I thought of was the "counterpunch" on turn 1. Basically, you give the opponent turn 1, with the idea that your initial deployment is such that you have good firing lanes onto the midboard objectives, and your units are not only able to put heavy fire on anyone on those objectives, they can also charge AND destroy whatever is on those objectives. I am not sure what we have in our arsenal that can do this though.
But a good example would be to have clear lanes of fire to the midboard objectives, and flying assault units, including Daemon princes positioned well.
So, turn 1, assuming opponent starts first (or we let him go first), he charges his transports onto the midboard objectives. Now, our turn, our flying daemon princes and other jump pack troops fly to within close charge range of the midpoint objectives. We then blast his transports apart with shooting, his troops spill out, and then we shoot plus declare charge with our DP and jump pack units. We destroy whatever was in the transports and then consolidate onto the objectives.
This assumes we have the firepower to destroy the transports plus destroy the troops within.
BTW, can I check something? Are we able to use strategems like forward operatives multiple times to scout move multiple units forward? I remember something about it being a pre game strategem, so can be used multiple times. Also, in a game where mobility is important, warptime may become even more important now, because it basically doubles a unit's movement.
On another related point about blocking opponent from the objective. Bikes are actually quite good for that too. Turn 1, a Black legion bike can move advance 20 inches, which is ridiculous, and still shoot its combi bolters as an assault weapon, and a combi melta gun too. So, with that 20 inches move, we can spread out the bikes to block our opponent transports from being able to move forward onto the objectives. They will be sacrificed, most likely, but they may have achieved their purpose of blocking and causing a crucial delay. And its not like they didn't get to shoot before they died. Another unit that serves this purpose well is the helldrake. It is not an aircraft, and has ridiculous movement, so it can block too.
Hmm, I just thought of something depressing. Scouts are going to be able to block a turn 1 Rhino rush. Because they can deploy forward and block the path the Rhinos. If he gets to go first, then turn 1, he can move the scouts even nearer, spread them out in a line in front of the Rhinos to block. Meanwhile, his transports rush onto the midboard objective turn 1. So he sacrifices the scouts turn 1 to block our Rhinos, and then turn 2, he deploys his Rhinos to block us even more.
And CSM can't get scouts unless we soup in chaos daemons for Nurglings...
that's why you get some kind of firepower in list, slaanesh termies, oblits or just PBC with mortars
Hmm, I just thought of something depressing. Scouts are going to be able to block a turn 1 Rhino rush. Because they can deploy forward and block the path the Rhinos. If he gets to go first, then turn 1, he can move the scouts even nearer, spread them out in a line in front of the Rhinos to block. Meanwhile, his transports rush onto the midboard objective turn 1. So he sacrifices the scouts turn 1 to block our Rhinos, and then turn 2, he deploys his Rhinos to block us even more.
And CSM can't get scouts unless we soup in chaos daemons for Nurglings...
that's why you get some kind of firepower in list, slaanesh termies, oblits or just PBC with mortars
The problem isn't about firepower. The problem is that even if we shot those blocking scouts off the board turn 1, they would have still achieved their purpose, which was to prevent our Rhinos from moving forward. Because movement phase happens before shooting.
There's probably some solutions that don't involve Nurglings. Heldrakes have enough mobility to bypass Scout units and jam up enemy movement. Beserkers with fight twice or 6" consolidates can use the scouts as a slingshot for extra distance. There's a few legion-specific stratagems for scout moves or infiltrate available. And of course you have Warptime which is one of the best utility powers in the game.
Nurglings are great, likely one of the better troop units in the game. Cultists and CSM don't stack up as well, but that's just how it is.
Hmm, red corsairs might be interesting. Turn 1, can move advance 6 MSU units of CSM squads with a combi melta forward. Shoot the meltas, and then charge anything nearby. Their bikes can literally first turn charge a transport that is on the front lines.
Yoyoyo wrote: There's probably some solutions that don't involve Nurglings. Heldrakes have enough mobility to bypass Scout units and jam up enemy movement. Beserkers with fight twice or 6" consolidates can use the scouts as a slingshot for extra distance. There's a few legion-specific stratagems for scout moves or infiltrate available. And of course you have Warptime which is one of the best utility powers in the game.
Nurglings are great, likely one of the better troop units in the game. Cultists and CSM don't stack up as well, but that's just how it is.
World Eaters have the Apoplectic Frenzy Stratagem. Let's them move 9" before the start of the first battle round.
Yoyoyo wrote: A tactics article I just saw talked about putting 20 Infiltrators on the board before T1, in order to monopolize space and dictate game flow.
That's definitely pitching the ball in the CSM court for how they're going to break out of their deployment rather than get bottled up early.
Its a powerful tactic. But that means you are devoting 20x24 = 480 points into infiltrators and you plan to use them to suicide block and establish board control. This means they will be in exposed zones which are easy to be charged at and shot at. I guess for CSM, since we can't really match that kind of space monopolization, then what we can only do, is to focus our forces on killing off these 20 infiltrators (because they are likely deployed forward and easy charge targets). Kill of these 480 points of your opponent army on turn 1. Then turn 2, we hit the mid board objectives. We might be behind 1 turn in terms of VP, but now they have lost at least a quarter of their entire army and we still have turn 2 to 5 to turn it around.
Deploying so many infiltrators forward means that not only are they easy charge targets, but melee units can use them as stepping stones forward. Like a slow terminator unit can only move forward 5 inches normally. Now if they deployed these infiltrators so far forward to monopolise space and constrict your Rhino movement. Then our terminators can move forward, charge the infiltrators, and then consolidate 3 inches forward after that. End result, they will end turn 1 pretty far forward, certainly further forward than if they only moved 5 inches forward.
The game isn't just decided by what units are standing on it on turn 1 and 2. It is also decided by whose units are standing on it from turn 3 to 5. 9th edition feels like chess. There are strategies and counter strategies. If you over reach with your army turn 1, you could end up losing too much steam by turn 3 and then have nothing left to answer when your opponent takes all objectives on turn 4 and 5.
I think it's true that SM have been handed an absolutely massive buff in this edition because of their 3 scout-deployment troops choices. They acually have more scout troops than non-scout troops at this point.
Plas has been nerfed, with the amount of dense cover on a board.
I think a lascannon for 15pts is a solid pick for csm, and the reaper chaincannon didn't go up. I mean, we're paying 70 fething points for the base unit, might as well go in for another 15-20 and have them actually do something...
The terrible troops choices chaos has is the biggest problem with the faction. It has been for a long time, but GW just tripled down on it by bizarrely nerfing them more than other, much stronger troops choices.
Have a few I want to get done building. Unsure about how champ loadouts are gonna look and I dont want to make to many back ups.
Combi bolters going up and combi plas going down makes me think about putting plas on all sargents now. only a 7pt difference between the two now.
Auto cannon because it can do everything but especially well bullying primaris.
Something i approve Off.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote: The terrible troops choices chaos has is the biggest problem with the faction. It has been for a long time, but GW just tripled down on it by bizarrely nerfing them more than other, much stronger troops choices.
I still wonder why terminators didn't go up dir Chaos, beeing an actually really good to Broken unit with the right and relatively easy combo to pull Off..
Meh no issue for me considering i got 2x 5 cb Chance + reaper AC squads that will be now mainstay but wierd These pts are.
I always loved the reaper auto termi... anyways what to do with marines I think is a very important question. Cultists are abominably priced compared to marines and we need 3 troop slots... or 2 minimum depending on the game. What sort of priority are enemies giving our troops over the rest of the list? Shooting our ObSec off the board In a single turn seems fairly easy unless you use rhinos or reserves. Should we assume that we won’t have marines past a single turn if ObSec is important? If so is it worth investing points on guns that will be prioritized due to how playing the objectives works? And how important is ObSec for our army? Or are we relying on threat saturation to keep the guns off our tac equivalents, or to even control the objectives after turn 1/2/3, when we likely have no more troops?
CSM are at a big disadvantage, but we have yet to see what CSM will be getting when their rules update finally comes. I doubt they'll be brought up to the level of primaris, but even just a trait rework would take them from bad to just sub optimal compared to loyalists.
From all the discussion I've seen of how 9th plays, not bringing troops just doesn't work out. So we should be looking at it as how to make the best use of our troops tax.
Plasma is still good, and with closer ranges and a lot more primaris likely to be on the board, is still a solid go to. 5 man plas+combi plas will do fine. Meltas are still not worth using over plasma, and flamers aren't likely to be necessary (and also aren't dangerous enough vs hordes to really be worth losing the plasma.)
Our heavy weapon selection is actually also really good. Autocannons were always a solid options due to being cheap. They aren't really great against anything, but they also aren't bad against anything. They are nice vs primaris too. Lascannons went down 10pts for infantry. Hard to go wrong with them either. Missiles launchers used to be inferior to ACs due to frag missiles being bad, but now that they've got blast, the math about averages out. And kraks will kill primaris. And of course the Reaper Chaincannon is one of the nastiest weapons in the game still. Good old LasPlas will work well, or single long ranged heavy weapon while holding backfield objectives. I wouldn't run them naked as if you're going to pay for the 5 bodies, at least let 4 of them be ablative wounds on a nice weapon.
It may also be necessary to take 10 man squads. In that case, triple plasma or double long range heavy weapon, depending on where you intend to put them on the board.
4 5 man squads in 2 rhinos is probably good for grabbing objectives.
What if you put chosen or cult marine of choice or a havoc squad with a marine squad, To add a bit of punch to that marine squad and maybe to help with clearing out that objective?
Automatically Appended Next Post: What if you put chosen or cult marine of choice or a havoc squad with a marine squad, To add a bit of punch to that marine squad and maybe to help with clearing out that objective? I guess deep strike termi or oblit or raptors or even bikes could basically pull all those jobs off as well...
Depending on your legion I think csm are quite handy. They’re there to stay on objectives not necessarily take them away from your opponent. Leave that job to the cult marines or armor.
As has been said you can give them a heavy weapon and a special weapon if you want to camp your back line objs or kit them out with chain sword and bp and a melta,combimelta if you want to get up close and personal.
From the 9th battle reports I’ve seen it seems as though you need to build your army with a true plan where as before you could just build an army that blows the other guy off the table.
Red corsairs in particular with their stratagem to bring back entire squads seem very potent Alpha legion have the -1 to hit and strats to make them untargetable. World eaters can move their csm up 9 inches before the battle, making scoring easier.
macluvin wrote: What if you put chosen or cult marine of choice or a havoc squad with a marine squad, To add a bit of punch to that marine squad and maybe to help with clearing out that objective?
Automatically Appended Next Post: What if you put chosen or cult marine of choice or a havoc squad with a marine squad, To add a bit of punch to that marine squad and maybe to help with clearing out that objective? I guess deep strike termi or oblit or raptors or even bikes could basically pull all those jobs off as well...
Chosen and Cult marines aren't particularly good either because all of them just have terrible durability, so it doesn't really help. Chosen are particularly weak for their cost once you buy special weapons. Berzerkers are good for killing, but need to get there. Plague marines are worth a look due to their durability, but only really for DG who take them as troops.
If you're going to put another unit there to help your CSM, look at more durable and efficient units like Helbrutes, daemon engines, terminators, etc.
Well, the obsec that our CSM has does have one use. It IS obsec. With what we know about the importance of taking midboard objectives, we are going to see both sides dog piling tons of stuff onto an objective.
The presence of obsec troops like CSM on an objective forces the opponent to make a choice. Does he focus on taking out all of the CSM or does he take out that big threat like a hellbrute or terminator squad first? If he does NOT have obsec on that objective, then even if 1 CSM survives the fight, you will get that objective points on the start of your next turn because of obsec.
It forces the opponent into making decisions like try and wipe out all of your CSM squad and leaving your hellbrute and Rhino left to shoot and pummel them during your combat phase.
Rhinos seem so good for blocking and being a nuisance now I feel like taking 4 to 6. lol And then the question becomes, do I take 6 CSM squads or 3 CSM squads and 3 other infantry like Chosen or Havocs.
On a seperate but kind of related note. Lascannon havocs are cheap now, but a trio of lascannon predators with kill shot are totally MEAN! And by hiding behind obscuring terrain, you can sort of gaurantee that you will survive till you are ready to move out, expose your self and activate that Kill Shot.
Also, if I am planning to run that many Rhinos, having even more vehicles will really force my opponent to have to make very hard choices. 6 Rhinos and 3 predators are 9 vehicles he has to shoot. But if I take predators, then I need to find something else to use cacophony on...
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, the obsec that our CSM has does have one use. It IS obsec. With what we know about the importance of taking midboard objectives, we are going to see both sides dog piling tons of stuff onto an objective.
The presence of obsec troops like CSM on an objective forces the opponent to make a choice. Does he focus on taking out all of the CSM or does he take out that big threat like a hellbrute or terminator squad first? If he does NOT have obsec on that objective, then even if 1 CSM survives the fight, you will get that objective points on the start of your next turn because of obsec.
It forces the opponent into making decisions like try and wipe out all of your CSM squad and leaving your hellbrute and Rhino left to shoot and pummel them during your combat phase.
Rhinos seem so good for blocking and being a nuisance now I feel like taking 4 to 6. lol And then the question becomes, do I take 6 CSM squads or 3 CSM squads and 3 other infantry like Chosen or Havocs.
On a seperate but kind of related note. Lascannon havocs are cheap now, but a trio of lascannon predators with kill shot are totally MEAN! And by hiding behind obscuring terrain, you can sort of gaurantee that you will survive till you are ready to move out, expose your self and activate that Kill Shot.
Also, if I am planning to run that many Rhinos, having even more vehicles will really force my opponent to have to make very hard choices. 6 Rhinos and 3 predators are 9 vehicles he has to shoot. But if I take predators, then I need to find something else to use cacophony on...
Decisions decisions .... lol
You don't need 6 rhinos. Take some helbrutes, contemptors, daemon engines, or hell forged preds.
But Rhinos seem like the perfect answer to powerful troops like intercessors. I did some quick math on 1 combi melta Rhino vs a bunch of 5 intercessors.
Unless the intercessors are really lucky, even if they shoot and charged into the Rhino, they aren't going to be able to kill it. Not in 5 turns.
Meanwhile, the Rhino is shooting 6 combi bolter shots and 1 melta shots into the intercessor every turn. The Rhino may actually come out on top at the end of 5 turns.
And a combi melta Rhino is 85 points while an intercessor squad is 100 points. So, move advance your Rhino turn 1 and block those intercessors. Then shoot and charge them turn 2 (if they didn't charge you first). As long as you are fighting away from the objective, you have effectively neutralised 100 obsec points with 85. And you may even win in the end.
Sounds like an extremely good deal to me. And if its a vehicle heavy meta, then do you really want to ignore 6 combi melta Rhinos to go after other stuff? Because that is 30 melta shots over 5 turns potentially... lol (not to mention all the other bolter shots).
Predators are pathetic. Hellforged contemptor dreads are much better. A quad LC pred is 175. A quad LC dread is 168, hits on 2s, has a 5+ inv against shooting, and 4+ inv in melee, can fight back in melee with 4 attacks at S7 AP0 D1 hitting on 2s. Pred is useless in melee, 3 attacks hitting on 6s, it has no inv, and its BS is 3+.
Playing around with lists for 9th with my Black Legion and Death Guard, obviously DG have just had a load of rules updates but it makes me realise how far behind even many other CSM factions they are. When Vigilus came out they got a boost but it feels like that was nothing compared to what has come out of Psychic Awakening.
Frustratingly, I could easily spend all my CP pre game with Death Guard, but with Black Legion I'm looking at 12CP starting and should be able to earn another 10 throughout the game with Trusted War Leader.
I wish we had some ways to upgrade units before the game like red butchers or adding disgustingly resilient etc
We should probably figure out how many CP we would need to optimally run a list as well. Are we using a god aligned stratagem like Slaanesh double tap every turn? Command Reroll/insane bravery? VotLW?
Do we need to keep cp tucked away for replenishing a csm squad? What structure do we need to accomplish that?
I mean, even in 8th I tried to ensure that for at least the first three turns I could put VotLW and Endless Cacophany on a powerful shooting unit. Normally Havocs turn one, obliterators turn two, whatever's healthiest turn three. It's just too powerful not to do it. EC also gets double from any other stratagem/psychic you stack on it so i always try to build around it.
A full unit of melta bikers is another good one for first turn double tap. 72 bolters and 6 melta shots does a lot of work with VotLW, Prescience or the BL reroll 1s strat!
Ok, quick question: 2 bolter squads or 1 squad of bolters and 1 chainswords + boltpistols for 500 pts?
Longer version:
I need to put the final polish on a current list for quick and fun 500pts games with friends (made this to hand out to others).
Friend is very pro-chaos and prefers the mantra of Blood for the Blood God.
Keeping this in mind, I made this for him:
Red corsairs
Chaos Lord of Khorne with Exalted champion, power axe of Blind fury
5 Csm of Khorne, bolters
5 Csm of Khorne, bolters + missile launcher
5 raptors, powerfist
Defiler with Reaper Autocannon + Twin Heavy Flamers
So not really looking for list help per say, but rather just that final tweak. Do I put chainswords on the squad that doesn't have a missile launcher to further distinguish his tactical choices? Or is it better to just stick with 5 bolters since I already have powerfhl close-range units?
My own list is Krieg and I'm building 1 necron army and, potentially, q fourth army, all armies that are not my main will be given away or at least primarily used by particular players, so I am tailoring them to suit those players and what they like on a conceptual level.
Since its red corsairs, it would probably be more interesting to put one squad with chainswords and pistols. Because then he will have no qualms on using the renegade legions traits of can advance and charge into combat.
Yeah, I figured that would be interesting, and picked red corsairs specifically to give him that option, but started worrying that maybe it would be better to shoot the necron or potential other MEQ army that might show up (got a third friend who's still looking into things he thinks is cool with warhammer 40k and he has yet to settle on something).
But yes, you are probably right, it also gives a much more khornate feel to them!
A melta gun in the CSM squad synergise more with the red corsairs trait because the melta gun is an assault weapon. So they can move advance, still shoot the melta gun, and then charge into combat straight after that. And a melta gun is always scary. Characters, vehicles are all scared of a melta gun shot in the face.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Abaddon303 wrote: I mean, even in 8th I tried to ensure that for at least the first three turns I could put VotLW and Endless Cacophany on a powerful shooting unit. Normally Havocs turn one, obliterators turn two, whatever's healthiest turn three. It's just too powerful not to do it. EC also gets double from any other stratagem/psychic you stack on it so i always try to build around it.
A full unit of melta bikers is another good one for first turn double tap. 72 bolters and 6 melta shots does a lot of work with VotLW, Prescience or the BL reroll 1s strat!
It kind of depends on your army composition as well. If its heavy daemon engine theme, there is less avenue for CP to be spent. Because VotLW and Endless Cacophany only works on infantry and not on daemon engines. At most you use daemon forge every turn and thats about it. If you play Iron warriors you have more CP options.
WE patrol or batallion is a strong choice now I suspect.
Zerkers in Rhinos are a serious pressure unit with obsec, and unlike cultists and CSM, zerkers are a great troop choice. They clock in at 90-109 per five man squad depending on loadout (fist? Icon?) and with their new strats they can just clean out most units.
I'd rather just not bother with CSM's terrible troops choices quite frankly. They are a waste of points on the whole. We'll see what 9e has in store, and it certainly sounds like this is a temporary situation, and that the faction is getting an overhaul soon: Lawrence at TTT has clearly playtested their new rules/codex/whatever and is very impressed with them.
So in the meantime, I will be shelving the ill-begotten CSM/cultist gak-sandwich and play to the kill/main/burn strengths of the faction.
How reliably would a 5-man Beserker squad jumping out of a Rhino remove a unit of Infiltrators or Intercessors from an objective? Anybody feel like doing the math?
Yoyoyo wrote: How reliably would a 5-man Beserker squad jumping out of a Rhino remove a unit of Infiltrators or Intercessors from an objective? Anybody feel like doing the math?
If they all have Chainaxes and Chainswords, the math is as follows:
grouchoben wrote: We'll see what 9e has in store, and it certainly sounds like this is a temporary situation, and that the faction is getting an overhaul soon: Lawrence at TTT has clearly playtested their new rules/codex/whatever and is very impressed with them.
Why do you say that? Was there a stream where he said as much? Curious to watch it then.
Well, first of all, it looks like you've forgotten DttFE and the WE bonus +1A.
your 5-man chainaxe squad will do 5.44 with axes and 0.86 with CS on the first attack, killing 3 marines outright, and the whole squad shortly after, if the don't elect to interrupt your second attacks.
That jumps to 7.26 + 1.56 if you use 1cp to proc Wild Fury.
If you have a sarge with a fist (and you usually do) that jumps to 4.15+0.86+3.47 (still need to fight twice) or 5.53+1.56+4.17 with wild fury (bingo, one shotted!).
So what's the simple takeaway? If you're charging one squad of intercessors with axes and you think the sarg (who will survive) may interrupt to strike back (ie he has a fist or such), you'll need 2cp for Wild Fury AND Stoke the Nails to kill them all in one set of attacks.
If you charge with axes+fist, just Wild Fury will do the job.
If your opponent can't/won't interrupt, don't spend any CP, you'll kill them all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Finally, WE zerkers are now at a huge premium because of the changes to charge rules.
Because they can consolidate 6" with kill/main/burn they will often get to use their second set of attacks, wheras other zerkers will often have to be careful with their charge distance, and not declare two units.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Finally, WE zerkers are now at a huge premium because of the changes to charge rules.
Because they can consolidate 6" with kill/main/burn they will often get to use their second set of attacks, wheras other zerkers will often have to be careful with their charge distance, and not declare two units.
Can you explain this please? I figured Berserkers were kind of neutered because they can no longer charge two units, eat through the first then consolidate and pile into the second with their fight twice. Unless I'm missing something? Fight twice looks like you'll only ever use it to chew through something big and in that sort of situation your opponent is likely to interrupt.
It makes me think chosen with chainaxes and a couple of power weapons are a better option as they can also throw a few combi bolter shots in and probably do as much damage in melee as Berserkers in their first fight?
WE patrol or batallion is a strong choice now I suspect.
Zerkers in Rhinos are a serious pressure unit with obsec, and unlike cultists and CSM, zerkers are a great troop choice. They clock in at 90-109 per five man squad depending on loadout (fist? Icon?) and with their new strats they can just clean out most units.
I'd rather just not bother with CSM's terrible troops choices quite frankly. They are a waste of points on the whole. We'll see what 9e has in store, and it certainly sounds like this is a temporary situation, and that the faction is getting an overhaul soon:
I think that a Red Corsairs battalion w/ a World Eaters patrol could be something.
Kharn + 9 Zerkers + Rhino (maybe also a Possessed bomb in a Rhino as well) is fairly self contained and gives access to the WE strats, especially the 4+ deny.
I suggest Corsairs because they can keep up and offer a ton of pressure while also netting +3 CP.
grouchoben wrote: Agreed, hence the 6" consolidate is a huge deal which lets you avoid it...
But they can only fight what they charge, and if they declare it, they have to get within engagement range of it with the initial charge role.
The 6" consolidate just enables you to tag stuff but you can't hit it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Finally, WE zerkers are now at a huge premium because of the changes to charge rules.
Because they can consolidate 6" with kill/main/burn they will often get to use their second set of attacks, wheras other zerkers will often have to be careful with their charge distance, and not declare two units.
Can you explain this please? I figured Berserkers were kind of neutered because they can no longer charge two units, eat through the first then consolidate and pile into the second with their fight twice.
There might be a new rule I'm not aware of, or this aspect of the rules may well change... But in 8e Zerkers could consolidate into engagement with another unit and then use their fight again. Their 'fight again' is best thought of as a second unit. If that 'unit ' is in engagement range then it can fight. So even though you charged one unit you can fight two, if and only if you could consolidate within 1" of them at the end of your first fight sequence. And with Kill Main Burn cosolidate range goes up to 6".
In 9th you can fight everything you are in engagement range with. If a character heroically intervened within engagement range of your charging unit you can attack him, even if you didnt declare him as a charge target.
p5freak wrote: In 9th you can fight everything you are in engagement range with. If a character heroically intervened within engagement range of your charging unit you can attack him, even if you didnt declare him as a charge target.
I'm not sure that's right either. I believe 9th is just the same as 8th where you can still only fight units that you declared to charge but there is a special dispensation for heroic intervention
Just had an interesting thought. Black Legion Abby List can have a elite slot thousand sons Rubric squad in front of Abby as a sort of shield and for look out sir. Because of the BL trait, the rubrics can move advance and still shoot their rapid fire inferno boltguns as assault weapons.
Rubrics are 2+, 4++. Have a psyker cast weaver of fates on them for a +1 invul and they are now 3++. Abby then makes them immune to morale. They can form a good shield if we take a large block of them in front of Abby, and lay down some deadly shooting as well. Anyone trying to charge them will have to face Abby heroically intervening. This block can be part of the second wave that pushes onto an objective on turn 2.
They are probably not the best Rubrics since we aren't taking TS, but they benefit from being BL rubrics in a different way. Its interesting to consider. I suddenly have many different ways to play CSM now, and I am kinda unsure which is the best to go.
But realising that Rhinos are so good now this edition has definitely helped CSM.
Anti tank is definitely going to be a must this edition. If only because I bet a fair number of armies are going to run multiple transports. If your opponent gets to go first and rushes Rhinos and landraiders onto the midboard objective, we need anti tank to respond. Melta guns are also looking better and better this edition, because the troops that take them like CSM are often close to the midboard objectives where they can be used for transport killing or dreadnaught killing. Because dreadnaughts are much improved this edition too, so I bet we will be seeing some of them too.
9th has made me come back to cultist blobs actually. Currently running alpha legion/1ksons one of my favorite combos. With the ability to forward deploy and teleport from multiple sources the army can really adjust to anything. A large blog of cultists and tzaangors are both very good for getting there early and outnumbering obsec at a decent price. Also cultists are more durable due to moral changes making tide better. Backed up by rubrics for risen.
Sadly many of my go to units are gonna collect dust for awhile. But on the bright side I get to bring back defilers, scarab occult termies and even spawn. 4-5 spawn from strategic reserve are murderous with the 1ksons strat.
Actually gonna run warp talons in place of oblits next as my main conceal target. See how that goes..
grouchoben wrote: We'll see what 9e has in store, and it certainly sounds like this is a temporary situation, and that the faction is getting an overhaul soon: Lawrence at TTT has clearly playtested their new rules/codex/whatever and is very impressed with them.
Why do you say that? Was there a stream where he said as much? Curious to watch it then.
He said it in a recent battle report, Ulthwe Vs Iron Warriors but it's an on demand video so you need to be a subscriber.
Basically they were saying about the shortcomings of CSM and the wonky points for 9th. He said the points weren't balanced yet because we haven't got all the rules yet (this was after the 9th rules leak etc so he didn't mean the 9th core rules). He basically heavily hinted that things were gonna be good for CSM.
Thing is, while I think he was being genuine, I really can't see CSM getting a new codex anytime soon. Being the only faction to have gotten a '1.5' codex I imagine we're firmly at the back of the queue. I would have said they'd start back through them in a similar order to 8th as some of the oldest codexes need the biggest help, but then death guard got a lot of help in PA.
Who knows? I've given up trying to predict GW they make so many odd choices.
grouchoben wrote: We'll see what 9e has in store, and it certainly sounds like this is a temporary situation, and that the faction is getting an overhaul soon: Lawrence at TTT has clearly playtested their new rules/codex/whatever and is very impressed with them.
Why do you say that? Was there a stream where he said as much? Curious to watch it then.
He said it in a recent battle report, Ulthwe Vs Iron Warriors but it's an on demand video so you need to be a subscriber.
Basically they were saying about the shortcomings of CSM and the wonky points for 9th. He said the points weren't balanced yet because we haven't got all the rules yet (this was after the 9th rules leak etc so he didn't mean the 9th core rules). He basically heavily hinted that things were gonna be good for CSM.
Thing is, while I think he was being genuine, I really can't see CSM getting a new codex anytime soon. Being the only faction to have gotten a '1.5' codex I imagine we're firmly at the back of the queue. I would have said they'd start back through them in a similar order to 8th as some of the oldest codexes need the biggest help, but then death guard got a lot of help in PA.
Who knows? I've given up trying to predict GW they make so many odd choices.
I suspect CSM will be one of the first codices, after SM and Necrons. The 1.5 codex doesn't really count. The reason they are likely to get a new book is because they didn't have their rules disparity with SM addressed in PA, whereas other loyalist SM did. So Chaos are the only marine faction that isn't up to date.
Just kinda of throwing ideas out here for discussion. Superheavies got hit because everyone can see and shoot them, but they can't see and shoot units behind obscuring terrain. However, the walker superheavies like chaos knights got 2 buffs:
1) they can step over blocking infantry units in a normal move and they can also fall back over units and still shoot and charge.
2) They can assault units on 2nd and 3rd floor now, because their hulls are very high.
A pure knight list is an uphill task because it is hard to fight on primary objectives with just a few large models. But how about spending the 3 CP to have just one despoiler melee knight as a distraction carnefix?
So, the idea is to keep it as cheap as possible (hence a melee despoiler with chainfist and reaper chainsword). And this despoiler will charge up as much as possible turn 1 and just basically try and wreck as much carnage as possible before going down and hopefully blowing up while doing that. He can't really be blocked, because he can step over blockers. And he is a huge distraction carnefix which has to be dealt with. If you don't deal with him, he could quite possibly be in the opponent's back objective and wrecking havoc there by turn 2. The key thing is that we bring him with the expectation that he will die. Even if he does, the opponent is focusing all of his efforts on this cheap melee knight while not touching the rest of our army. If you raise ion shields, he is still a 4++ T8 titanic unit with 24 wounds.
Ordinarily, chaos knight armies gives up secondaries too easily. Because you can easily max 15 VP in the secondary that kills titanic. But if you have only one, then the max points you can get from that secondary is 10 VP.The key thing is that losing that 1 superheavy is ok if it allows us to win the mid board. It seems to me like 3CP spent to get him might be worthwhile for such a huge tanky distraction carnefix. Now, question is why don't we use other heavy support or vehicles like defilers to do this. We can, except they can all be blocked by scouts while the chaos knight won't be blocked by such scouts. We have to plan that 50% of the time, we may go second.
If our opponent goes first, rushes some Rhinos, even a land raider onto the midboard objectives, plus push his scouts forward near to our lines to limit our forward movement. How do we respond to that without giving him an easy 15VP at the start of his second turn?
I mean I certainly wouldn't disagree that they need a new codex. There are fundamental issues with the army structure that makes several units useless and almost impossible to include in an army build.
Death Guard are actually set up quite nicely for 9th edition, they have a few powerful and versatile HQs, then a lot of their buffing characters are in the elite slot. Their DPs are far more robust so are effective warlords while regular CSMDPs are used more as a shock unit. This means CSM are forced to take multiple HQs for power and redundancy (chainlords/Ex Champ)
CSM have such limited and lacking legion traits that they need to get their buffs from characters, but we are limited to three. We have two psychic disciplines but need to take two psykers to access them, also our best Daemon engine is a HQ!
CSM really need several of their HQs moved to elite starting with the Master of Executions, Warpsmith and probably Dark Apostle
Abaddon303 wrote: I mean I certainly wouldn't disagree that they need a new codex. There are fundamental issues with the army structure that makes several units useless and almost impossible to include in an army build.
Death Guard are actually set up quite nicely for 9th edition, they have a few powerful and versatile HQs, then a lot of their buffing characters are in the elite slot. Their DPs are far more robust so are effective warlords while regular CSMDPs are used more as a shock unit. This means CSM are forced to take multiple HQs for power and redundancy (chainlords/Ex Champ)
CSM have such limited and lacking legion traits that they need to get their buffs from characters, but we are limited to three. We have two psychic disciplines but need to take two psykers to access them, also our best Daemon engine is a HQ!
CSM really need several of their HQs moved to elite starting with the Master of Executions, Warpsmith and probably Dark Apostle
Honestly, no point wishing and hoping. I would rather play with what we have in existing rules. If a new codex does drop, thats well and good. But I don't want to say I won't play a game of 9th ed 40k until such a CSM codex drops. What if it takes another 6 months, or even a year ?
And frankly I don't think CSM are that bad right now in the grand hierarchy of the game. Our biggest weakness compared to other armies was our relative lack of ranged killing power. But now that tabling your opponent is no longer the default wincon of the game, I think we can be competitive.
It's also worth noting that the only faction in the game that seems to genuinely be head and shoulders above the rest is Primaris. Take SM out of the picture and a lot of our old rivals, Eldar and Tau being good examples, seem to be hurting as much as we are. CSM is a very workable army with lots of options and is no where close to being near the bottom of the factions imo.
2) They can assault units on 2nd and 3rd floor now, because their hulls are very high.
No, they cant. They have a base, and distances are measured from the base. They can hit the first floor, because engagement range is now 5" vertical, but not second of third floor.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Just kinda of throwing ideas out here for discussion. Superheavies got hit because everyone can see and shoot them, but they can't see and shoot units behind obscuring terrain. However, the walker superheavies like chaos knights got 2 buffs:
1) they can step over blocking infantry units in a normal move and they can also fall back over units and still shoot and charge.
2) They can assault units on 2nd and 3rd floor now, because their hulls are very high.
A pure knight list is an uphill task because it is hard to fight on primary objectives with just a few large models. But how about spending the 3 CP to have just one despoiler melee knight as a distraction carnefix?
So, the idea is to keep it as cheap as possible (hence a melee despoiler with chainfist and reaper chainsword). And this despoiler will charge up as much as possible turn 1 and just basically try and wreck as much carnage as possible before going down and hopefully blowing up while doing that. He can't really be blocked, because he can step over blockers. And he is a huge distraction carnefix which has to be dealt with. If you don't deal with him, he could quite possibly be in the opponent's back objective and wrecking havoc there by turn 2. The key thing is that we bring him with the expectation that he will die. Even if he does, the opponent is focusing all of his efforts on this cheap melee knight while not touching the rest of our army. If you raise ion shields, he is still a 4++ T8 titanic unit with 24 wounds.
Ordinarily, chaos knight armies gives up secondaries too easily. Because you can easily max 15 VP in the secondary that kills titanic. But if you have only one, then the max points you can get from that secondary is 10 VP.The key thing is that losing that 1 superheavy is ok if it allows us to win the mid board. It seems to me like 3CP spent to get him might be worthwhile for such a huge tanky distraction carnefix. Now, question is why don't we use other heavy support or vehicles like defilers to do this. We can, except they can all be blocked by scouts while the chaos knight won't be blocked by such scouts. We have to plan that 50% of the time, we may go second.
If our opponent goes first, rushes some Rhinos, even a land raider onto the midboard objectives, plus push his scouts forward near to our lines to limit our forward movement. How do we respond to that without giving him an easy 15VP at the start of his second turn?
If you're only taking one, you're probably better off with Lord of Skulls as it can benefit from CSM auras, strats, powers, and prayers.
Eldenfirefly wrote: But I don't think the LOS can step over models in its movement phase or fall back phase. So the LOS can be blocked while the chaos knight can't.
Yes, a LOS can be move blocked, and it costs you 3 CP to use him, you cant put him in a supreme command detachment, because he isnt a primarch or supreme commander. I think mortarion, or magnus, will probably get those keywords. What he can do is hit units on the second floor, because he hasnt got a base, thus you measure from any part of the hull, Knights cant do that, they have a base.
Well, objectives will not be on second floor. They can't even be in terrain, So, I think its fine. In any case, engagement range is 5 inches up so, even if its measured from the base, can still hit second floor. (if there is a need). I honestly love LOS more than a chaos knight. But LOS being able to be blocked is kinda of a big deal. Guess we will see. In any case, cost wise, LOS is only a bit more expensive than a melee despoiler, with more synergies with CSM. So, if LOS can serve the same purpose, then I would pick LOS over a chaos knights. What I am worried about is when we go second, not so much when we go first.
I like the idea of a single Knight Eldenfirefly, but I think a SHD with two moiraxes alongside would be a good way to go. And a Castigator warlord instead of a melee despoiler. Go Khomentis, give it the dreadhunter warlord trait, and take 1d3 mortal wounds for daemonic power, and you now have a knight that's solid in melee still, that once a game can spit out 16 S7 -2 D4 shots that reroll hits and wounds. That kind of firepower can help decide a game, and depending on the opponent/mission you can elect to put it in reserve for 3cp to ensure that it can't be denied its super shot. 790 for the detachment, leaving you 1210pts for CSM.
The big downside to this build is it robs you of your CSM warlord traits (Castigator needs to be actual warlord to take a trait), which can be pretty clutch, unless you're AL.
BlaxicanX wrote: And frankly I don't think CSM are that bad right now in the grand hierarchy of the game. Our biggest weakness compared to other armies was our relative lack of ranged killing power. But now that tabling your opponent is no longer the default wincon of the game, I think we can be competitive.
It's also worth noting that the only faction in the game that seems to genuinely be head and shoulders above the rest is Primaris. Take SM out of the picture and a lot of our old rivals, Eldar and Tau being good examples, seem to be hurting as much as we are. CSM is a very workable army with lots of options and is no where close to being near the bottom of the factions imo.
Truth be told, you are definitely right that everything looks better once you pretend space marines aren’t a thing. One of my strategies is to be a bit picky with space marine players... if I willingly put chaos space marine squads and other suboptimal units in my list they can keep their eradicates out of theirs...
Drudge Dreadnought wrote:I suspect CSM will be one of the first codices, after SM and Necrons. The 1.5 codex doesn't really count. The reason they are likely to get a new book is because they didn't have their rules disparity with SM addressed in PA, whereas other loyalist SM did. So Chaos are the only marine faction that isn't up to date.
The rumor is Deathwatch get the first 9th edition Codex.
Honestly, I hope CSM doesn't come for a while. We did in 6th and 8th and codex creep ruined them after about a year.
p5freak wrote:In 9th you can fight everything you are in engagement range with. If a character heroically intervened within engagement range of your charging unit you can attack him, even if you didnt declare him as a charge target.
This is going to be an interesting aspect of the game, charging to draw characters into battle.
People should really be thinking about it before they field melee armies. Might have an impact on list design.
Black Legion have a WLT called Black-Clad Brute. After you charge, you do d3 MW on a 4+. Have been thinking about putting this on a Dark Apostle specifically for character sniping.
Eldenfirefly wrote:Just had an interesting thought. Black Legion Abby List can have a elite slot thousand sons Rubric squad in front of Abby as a sort of shield and for look out sir. Because of the BL trait, the rubrics can move advance and still shoot their rapid fire inferno boltguns as assault weapons.
Rubrics are 2+, 4++. Have a psyker cast weaver of fates on them for a +1 invul and they are now 3++. Abby then makes them immune to morale. They can form a good shield if we take a large block of them in front of Abby, and lay down some deadly shooting as well. Anyone trying to charge them will have to face Abby heroically intervening. This block can be part of the second wave that pushes onto an objective on turn 2.
They are probably not the best Rubrics since we aren't taking TS, but they benefit from being BL rubrics in a different way. Its interesting to consider. I suddenly have many different ways to play CSM now, and I am kinda unsure which is the best to go.
Thought about this too. Black Legion Rubrics could be powerful, the drawbacks are a) price and b) they're elites (so no ObSec.)
I could see them as a shield for a Sorcerer or Tzeentch DP, but ask yourself if you could do better with a TS Patrol detachment with Cult of Magic or Cult of Duplicity. Abaddon's morale aura works for all Heretic Astartes.
Abaddon303 wrote:I mean I certainly wouldn't disagree that they need a new codex. There are fundamental issues with the army structure that makes several units useless and almost impossible to include in an army build. Death Guard are actually set up quite nicely for 9th edition, they have a few powerful and versatile HQs, then a lot of their buffing characters are in the elite slot. Their DPs are far more robust so are effective warlords while regular CSMDPs are used more as a shock unit. This means CSM are forced to take multiple HQs for power and redundancy (chainlords/Ex Champ) CSM have such limited and lacking legion traits that they need to get their buffs from characters, but we are limited to three. We have two psychic disciplines but need to take two psykers to access them, also our best Daemon engine is a HQ! CSM really need several of their HQs moved to elite starting with the Master of Executions, Warpsmith and probably Dark Apostle
Almost agree with this. Downside is current HQs competing for slots with things like Contemptors, which could be worse.
Changes to the Supreme Command Detachment have really cost CSM, you used to be able to pack these guys into a list. I was running Ahriman and Disk Sorcerers in one and now there's no way to load up on them without a troop tax.
I think you're getting into a more fundamental flaw with CSM, too much of our offense is concentrated in HQs. GW has used this role as a band-aid over multiple editions, you don't get that much out of the rest of your army without their auras / psychic buffs. Designers need to really look at this and consider improving the statlines / abilities of basic units to decrease our reliance on HQs overall.
I've always felt from a fluff perspective we should have lots of champions and freaks and whatever else. We gained a few characters very recently but before that I found it odd how loyalists had ancients and champions. After 10000 years in the warp you'd imagine a few particularly gifted chaps would stand out. It's even worse that we lost our mounted characters too. We've ended up more vanilla than the vanillas... ?!?
I really like GPs, M7, T5, W5, 5+ Inv, hitting on 2s, 6 attacks on the charge with S6 AP-2 Dd3 for 65 pts. in 9th is good. Playing them as RC would allow them to charge after advancing. They can board a rhino for protection.
It'd be great if we had more elite slot character options. The Master of Executions doesn't need to be an HQ, and perhaps even the exalted champion. We still lack a source of re-roll 1's to wound when shooting aura. That could go on an elite character.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: It'd be great if we had more elite slot character options. The Master of Executions doesn't need to be an HQ, and perhaps even the exalted champion. We still lack a source of re-roll 1's to wound when shooting aura. That could go on an elite character.
It would be more needed to have actual Mobility options back for our charachters....
I think the LOS is in a weird place because I don't think they addressed its rules in the FAQ. It always had the rule that it could fire when engaged. If i understand the new rules correctly, the difference is, the standard 9th rules are that you have to fire at the engaged enemies while the LOS is free to shoot at whoever it likes.
If the LOS keeps that rule it's actually a huge advantage over knights because you can quite easily bog down knights with bodies and force it to put all of it's shots into something like 20 poxwalkers point blank. It can't fire blast weapons so I'm not sure any knight has a chance to free itself to shoot it's big guns at anything tasty.
Eldenfirefly wrote: But I don't think the LOS can step over models in its movement phase or fall back phase. So the LOS can be blocked while the chaos knight can't.
Yes, a LOS can be move blocked, and it costs you 3 CP to use him, you cant put him in a supreme command detachment, because he isnt a primarch or supreme commander. I think mortarion, or magnus, will probably get those keywords. What he can do is hit units on the second floor, because he hasnt got a base, thus you measure from any part of the hull, Knights cant do that, they have a base.
Quick note - Mort and Magnus are Primarchs and already have the keyword. Morty’s main disadvantage is that DG like an Arch-Contaminator to be on a hireable character; Warlord Morty bagsies this WT, which in a meta prepared to delete a Knight seriously limits its lifespan. Fortunately Deathshroud are more useful now
Eldenfirefly wrote: But I don't think the LOS can step over models in its movement phase or fall back phase. So the LOS can be blocked while the chaos knight can't.
Yes, a LOS can be move blocked, and it costs you 3 CP to use him, you cant put him in a supreme command detachment, because he isnt a primarch or supreme commander. I think mortarion, or magnus, will probably get those keywords. What he can do is hit units on the second floor, because he hasnt got a base, thus you measure from any part of the hull, Knights cant do that, they have a base.
Quick note - Mort and Magnus are Primarchs and already have the keyword. Morty’s main disadvantage is that DG like an Arch-Contaminator to be on a hireable character; Warlord Morty bagsies this WT, which in a meta prepared to delete a Knight seriously limits its lifespan. Fortunately Deathshroud are more useful now
What made Deathshround more useful? They got dis proportionally more expensive.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: It'd be great if we had more elite slot character options. The Master of Executions doesn't need to be an HQ, and perhaps even the exalted champion. We still lack a source of re-roll 1's to wound when shooting aura. That could go on an elite character.
Honestly, how do CSM not have a banner-wielding elite option yet? Call it an 'Invigorator" or something, let it give models that die a chance to shoot/fight. Heck, give it banner options like a Vexilus.
Especially since the Judiciar is an elite (almost definitely because it's designed around HQ slots being far more precious in 9th), I could see the MoE moved to Elite and the Exalted Champion turned into a Lieutenant effect
What I'd really like to see is a strat to take another HQ option or a way to integrate Daemons/Knights that doesn't feel terrible. Daemonic Ritual could definitely be reworked into a strat.
dominuschao wrote: 9th has made me come back to cultist blobs actually. Currently running alpha legion/1ksons one of my favorite combos. With the ability to forward deploy and teleport from multiple sources the army can really adjust to anything. A large blog of cultists and tzaangors are both very good for getting there early and outnumbering obsec at a decent price. Also cultists are more durable due to moral changes making tide better. Backed up by rubrics for risen.
Sadly many of my go to units are gonna collect dust for awhile. But on the bright side I get to bring back defilers, scarab occult termies and even spawn. 4-5 spawn from strategic reserve are murderous with the 1ksons strat.
Actually gonna run warp talons in place of oblits next as my main conceal target. See how that goes..
Abaddon303 wrote: I think the LOS is in a weird place because I don't think they addressed its rules in the FAQ. It always had the rule that it could fire when engaged. If i understand the new rules correctly, the difference is, the standard 9th rules are that you have to fire at the engaged enemies while the LOS is free to shoot at whoever it likes.
If the LOS keeps that rule it's actually a huge advantage over knights because you can quite easily bog down knights with bodies and force it to put all of it's shots into something like 20 poxwalkers point blank. It can't fire blast weapons so I'm not sure any knight has a chance to free itself to shoot it's big guns at anything tasty.
In 9th edition, superheavies are the only ones that can fall back and still shoot.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
p5freak wrote: I really like GPs, M7, T5, W5, 5+ Inv, hitting on 2s, 6 attacks on the charge with S6 AP-2 Dd3 for 65 pts. in 9th is good. Playing them as RC would allow them to charge after advancing. They can board a rhino for protection.
Yeah, I think they are great too! If I needed a cheap fighty character, Greater Possessed are the obvious choice. They are one third the cost of DP while being only slightly worse at melee.
About Black Legion Rubrics. I think their primary role would be to serve as look out sir and escort to Abaddon. Obsec would be less important as a role compared to that. Becaue Abaddon is 220 points. In any case, if they do their job right can escort Abaddon onto a midboard objective, I don't think there will be any obsec troops left after 1 or 2 rounds of fighting there. Abbadon can chew through an entire knight in 1 turn, he would obliterate a bunch of obsec troops if he was in close combat with them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Would like to raise a point about being character heavy again. I think we need to remember that look out sir is a lot weaker this edition. It is a lot easier to snipe characters. Even if you are next to a squad of something chunky, like 5 terminators, your opponent only needs to take it down to 2 models, and it stops providing look out sir for your character. The only other protection then is to put your character next to a vehicle. And well, with the amount of anti tank likely to be around, vehicles go down quickly too.
I feel that if we put too many points into characters, we will suffer from having too few bodies to actually contest objectives and protect our characters. After a while, we will either clump them all up into one big moving castle, and that in itself risks overcomitting points into just one spot. Or we will have them all going off to do their own thing, desperate to shore up objectives in different places. And this then opens them up to be sniped.
If its a cheap character, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But how many of our characters are that cheap? a Flying DP is 200 points. That is definitely not a throwaway unit. Abaddon is also 220 points, and the best way to kill him is to shoot him because he is such a beast in close combat. Even stuff like sorcerers are near 100 points. If I could spare a lascannon shot at a sorcerer out in the open, that's a free 100 point kill I just picked up if it hits and I deal 4 damage because sorcerers don't even have an invul save.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: It'd be great if we had more elite slot character options. The Master of Executions doesn't need to be an HQ, and perhaps even the exalted champion. We still lack a source of re-roll 1's to wound when shooting aura. That could go on an elite character.
It would be more needed to have actual Mobility options back for our charachters....
I would be so happy if we could just have a lord on a bike or jump lord that is priced the same as the superior loyalist variety... Kinda hurts that they took that away and left it to the loyalists and left them in legends to rot over power creep...
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: It'd be great if we had more elite slot character options. The Master of Executions doesn't need to be an HQ, and perhaps even the exalted champion. We still lack a source of re-roll 1's to wound when shooting aura. That could go on an elite character.
It would be more needed to have actual Mobility options back for our charachters....
I would be so happy if we could just have a lord on a bike or jump lord that is priced the same as the superior loyalist variety... Kinda hurts that they took that away and left it to the loyalists and left them in legends to rot over power creep...
Tbh I wish we could get multipart kits back for foot/jump pack, terminator, and bike. Just include a bunch of heads and weapons and say it builds lord/sorc/mop/moe/ec, etc in each configuration. It would be so easy for them to do, even while keeping to having a model.
but that would cut into their baseline overpriced HQ selling strategy drudge.
can't have that, now pay 60CHF for abbadon when you don't want a squat termite lord...
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Tbh I wish we could get multipart kits back for foot/jump pack, terminator, and bike. Just include a bunch of heads and weapons and say it builds lord/sorc/mop/moe/ec, etc in each configuration. It would be so easy for them to do, even while keeping to having a model.
GW doesn't like kitbashing anymore. Only recent examples I can think of are Creations of Bile and new CSM builds that were taking parts from expensive AOS kits to make models more Khornate.
I have a feeling we're never going to see mobile HQs because GW doesn't really know what to do with the range. CSM have to be balanced against Primaris, but GW never gets around to improving the statlines for models like Chosen / Possessed / Havocs / Cult Troops, which should probably be 2 wounds. They have a big list of legacy units and a long history of ignoring them in favor of OP rules for new HQs.
Until this trend changes, I don't think we will see any movement on common-sense mobility options. The models are set in stone.
GW has no idea what it wants CSMs to be or play. Are they more elite marines+1? Are they a cannon fodder horde army? Are legions of veterans of the long war? All, neither some? Played chaos since 3rd and there has never been a consistent design.
On topic, what are people's lists looking like for 9th? I'm having quite a hard time coming up with a list that even looks like it could compete.
I'm actually not convinced by the anti kitbash sentiment. If GW had any sense they'd know how much more expenditure goes into kitbashing. It's all product bring sold. Even purchases from bits sellers means they sold the kit in the first place.
If they didn't want kitbashing they'd actively discourage it in stores or tournaments. They also wouldn't showcase it on warcom or even in codexes. They like to claim they are a modelling company first and foremost they'd be crazy to cut themselves off from that side of the hobby.
I do believe they are genuinely hampered by the court ruling. They can't support options they don't produce but they don't necessarily care how you represent the rules they do produce.
Abaddon303 wrote: I'm actually not convinced by the anti kitbash sentiment. If GW had any sense they'd know how much more expenditure goes into kitbashing. It's all product bring sold. Even purchases from bits sellers means they sold the kit in the first place.
If they didn't want kitbashing they'd actively discourage it in stores or tournaments. They also wouldn't showcase it on warcom or even in codexes. They like to claim they are a modelling company first and foremost they'd be crazy to cut themselves off from that side of the hobby.
I do believe they are genuinely hampered by the court ruling. They can't support options they don't produce but they don't necessarily care how you represent the rules they do produce.
GW is all for using their kits to kitbash new models. except now they make kits with less options in them so you don't have as many extra bits when you build your unit (terminators anyone?).
And yeah, the chapterhouse thing made them forced to delete most datasheets that didn't have un-kitbashed models. It totally sucks for many armies because it just makes it so you lose all the fluffy options, especially for the characters.
Why can't our HQs use a bike? why cant the Eldar Autarch (who has mastered all shrines of combat) not take anything more than a sword and grenades? Why can't drukhari HQs get wings grafted onto them.
Even more good questions :
Why can't CSM take ancient weaponry that they kept since the HH but the loyalists can (Volkite), land speeders, mortars.
Why can't CSM use all the tanks from the HH? Sabre tank, Bombard, all the sicaran options, all the doritos options, Arquitor, basilisk, medusa.
Why can't CSM have legion traits that are on part with the loyalists
Why can't CSM have legion traits that work on all their units
Why can't CSM have models that feel like actual veterans of the long war
I've got a couple of rough lists but I can't be bothered to manually sort out points so I'm waiting for battlescribe to update so I can check points cost. The list I'm looking forward to trying out is basically a patrol and a vanguard.
++ Patrol Detachment ++
Legion: Black Legion
Council of Traitors [-1CP]
Gifts of Chaos (1 Relic) [-1CP]
+ HQ +
Abaddon the Despoiler [+2CP]: Warlord
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: Angelsbane, Combi-bolter, Council of Traitors, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh, Warp Lord
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Plasma gun
Dark Disciples: No Chaos Mark
. 2x Dark Disciple: 2x Close combat weapon
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord with Jump Pack: Chainsword, Combi-bolter, Combi-melta, Ghorisvex's Teeth, No Chaos Mark
Dark Apostle: 5. Trusted War-leader, Benediction of Darkness, Blissful Devotion, Council of Traitors, Mark of Slaanesh
+ Elites +
Chosen: No Chaos Mark
. Chosen: Chainaxe
. Chosen: Chainaxe
. Chosen Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. Chosen w/ Combi or Special weapon: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
. Chosen w/ Combi or Special weapon: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
. Chosen w/ Combi or Special weapon: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. Chosen w/ Combi or Special weapon: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. Chosen w/ Heavy or Special weapon: Reaper chaincannon
Greater Possessed . Greater Possessed: No Chaos Mark
Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought: 2x Butcher cannon, Havoc launcher, No Chaos Mark
Mutilators: No chaos mark
. 3x Mutilator: 3x Fleshmetal weapons
That should be well under 2000pts, start with 12CP and will gain another ten throughout the game so I'm planning to really indulge in strategies. votlw, EC and world killers if needed. I can also fight again anywhere I need it. Will probably stick tip of the spear on the bikers first turn too. I have a lot of anti infantry and high rate of fire so hoping to clear opposition's obsec and get board control early on. If I can afford it after point changes I'll probably look to add in a daemon engine to put pressure on and distract from my contemptor.
Just saw a battle report where 60 cultists were taken out in one turn (plus other stuff too). Cultists are just so fragile. These didn't die to morale (it was a 9th ed game). They were literally killed down to the last man. I am going to run Rhinos with troops in them for sure. At least if you want to get at my obsec units, you have to crack the Rhinos first.
Also, I am beginning to see how some armies make use of a super punchy, fast unit with very high saves can be used. These will move up fast, and pose an immediate threat. They often draw a massive amount of firepower because they are tough or have high saves. But the key thing is, they are kind of a trap. They are a distraction carnefix. Because the opponent is drawn into spending massive amounts of resources to wipe out this huge threatening unit, they then lack the firepower to take care of everything else. It tips the power of balance on the objectives.
If instead, you had a suitable tarpit unit that could be charged into close combat and tie up that unit. It would still be scary, but then he will be using a ton of points wrapped in that unit to destroy the tarpit unit, or he falls back and then he can't shoot or charge with his "deathstar" unit. (This only works if it is not a titanic unit). The deathstar unit in this example was this massive deathstar unit of warkicj conclave singing spears. It was huge, scary, and forced the CSM player to devote far too much resources to try and kill it.
Meanwhile, you would then able to allocate all of your firepower towards the units which are thretening the objectives and tip the power balance in your favour. I am not sure if CSM can create such a distraction carnefix so easily. But my point about the throwaway chaos knight would be one example.
Turn 1, the chaos knight stomps up the midboard, is up the in face, and towers menancingly. So on the opponent's turn, they would of course devote a lot of shooting at it to kill it. And it has a 4++ save with raise ion shields.
If we can achieve a similar effect with a purely CSM unit it would be good. Though I am not sure how. Because it needs to be a fast mobile unit that can hit hard, but is very resilient as well. Those shining spear warlock conclave used psychic to give themselves a 4++ invul. That made them pretty tough.
The shining spears deathstar is an example of a unit that can't be blocked either. Even if there were scouts deployed as blockers, that unit would have flown up the midboard and been an immediate threat once the Eldar player started his turn.
At this point, possibly Helldrakes would fill that role? Maybe? Except they aren't that tough, nor are they that scary... A buffed up flying DP with psychic or relic ?
BTW, I saw another battle report where a CSM player tried to run a Daemon engine themed list. Turn 1, 3 decimaters and 1 Lord discordant blown off the table. By turn 3, he had conceded cos he literally had nothing left. sigh.
Defilers and Spawn are both really points efficient for distraction units. And anything with enough stacked buffs is decently survivable. EC Possessed Bomb at T5 from Elixirs with -1 to hit from an Apostle, a 4++ from Cursed Earth, and a 5+++ from Agonies would probably tank fire terrifyingly well.
Hmm, Abaddon is kind of giving me headaches. I really want to include him, but I am reluctant to just have him in the backline buffing my heavy support shooting. He costs far too much just for that role. I feel that to get maximum use out of Abby, we need him in the thick of things so that he can utilise his awesome melee capabilities.So far, I have three ideas for him. Which do you think is better?
Strike force 1) Put Abby with a squad of 9 bikes with 3 plasma guns. Supported by CSM in Rhinos. The entire force will aim for one objective, possibly two. Abaddon will try his best to move advance so that he can keep up.
Strike force 2) Put Abby with a big squad of Rubric Marines (300 points worth). Again supported by CSM in Rhinos.
Strike force 3) Put Abby with a squad of 10 Terminators with a combi plasma and 2 reaper autocannons. Also with CSM in 2 Rhinos.
Which do you think is best? And one consideration that strikes me about this... Abby slows down strike force version 1 by alot. Rhinos can move 12, bikes can also move 12. Abby can at most only move 6+d6,
If I were to replace Abby with a flying Daemon Prince. I still get aura of reroll 1, awesome fighting ability, I gain 1 psychic spell and most crucially, now the entire strike force 1 moves at 12 inches, and if I advanced, it can move even further. This is not a small thing. A flying DP in strike force 1 has the option to be deep into enemy lines by turn 2.It seems like I lose more than I gain by insisting on taking Abby. Because while his aura will be awesome on the guns on the Rhinos, and the bikes, is it worth what I lose given that a DP also gives a reroll 1 aura...
On buffing heavy support. I prefer to take havocs with lascannons for my heavy support. And I am thinking of taking a termi or normal chaos lord, give him the Vigilance specialist devastation Battery warlord trait and relic and he can then buff those havocs probably just as well as Abby can.
Abaddon303 wrote: I'm actually not convinced by the anti kitbash sentiment. If GW had any sense they'd know how much more expenditure goes into kitbashing. It's all product bring sold. Even purchases from bits sellers means they sold the kit in the first place.
If they didn't want kitbashing they'd actively discourage it in stores or tournaments. They also wouldn't showcase it on warcom or even in codexes. They like to claim they are a modelling company first and foremost they'd be crazy to cut themselves off from that side of the hobby.
I do believe they are genuinely hampered by the court ruling. They can't support options they don't produce but they don't necessarily care how you represent the rules they do produce.
GW is all for using their kits to kitbash new models. except now they make kits with less options in them so you don't have as many extra bits when you build your unit (terminators anyone?).
And yeah, the chapterhouse thing made them forced to delete most datasheets that didn't have un-kitbashed models. It totally sucks for many armies because it just makes it so you lose all the fluffy options, especially for the characters.
Why can't our HQs use a bike? why cant the Eldar Autarch (who has mastered all shrines of combat) not take anything more than a sword and grenades? Why can't drukhari HQs get wings grafted onto them.
Even more good questions :
Why can't CSM take ancient weaponry that they kept since the HH but the loyalists can (Volkite), land speeders, mortars.
Why can't CSM use all the tanks from the HH? Sabre tank, Bombard, all the sicaran options, all the doritos options, Arquitor, basilisk, medusa.
Why can't CSM have legion traits that are on part with the loyalists
Why can't CSM have legion traits that work on all their units
Why can't CSM have models that feel like actual veterans of the long war
Perfect time for that Dave Chappell meme... “why? Because feth em, that’s why!” What GW says about non primaris players XD
Abaddon303 wrote: I'm actually not convinced by the anti kitbash sentiment. If GW had any sense they'd know how much more expenditure goes into kitbashing. It's all product bring sold. Even purchases from bits sellers means they sold the kit in the first place.
If they didn't want kitbashing they'd actively discourage it in stores or tournaments. They also wouldn't showcase it on warcom or even in codexes. They like to claim they are a modelling company first and foremost they'd be crazy to cut themselves off from that side of the hobby.
I do believe they are genuinely hampered by the court ruling. They can't support options they don't produce but they don't necessarily care how you represent the rules they do produce.
GW is all for using their kits to kitbash new models. except now they make kits with less options in them so you don't have as many extra bits when you build your unit (terminators anyone?).
And yeah, the chapterhouse thing made them forced to delete most datasheets that didn't have un-kitbashed models. It totally sucks for many armies because it just makes it so you lose all the fluffy options, especially for the characters.
Why can't our HQs use a bike? why cant the Eldar Autarch (who has mastered all shrines of combat) not take anything more than a sword and grenades? Why can't drukhari HQs get wings grafted onto them.
Even more good questions :
Why can't CSM take ancient weaponry that they kept since the HH but the loyalists can (Volkite), land speeders, mortars.
Why can't CSM use all the tanks from the HH? Sabre tank, Bombard, all the sicaran options, all the doritos options, Arquitor, basilisk, medusa.
Why can't CSM have legion traits that are on part with the loyalists
Why can't CSM have legion traits that work on all their units
Why can't CSM have models that feel like actual veterans of the long war
Perfect time for that Dave Chappell meme... “why? Because feth em, that’s why!” What GW says about non primaris players XD
the food chain is as follows release of new kits wise:
SM> CSM> IoM "minor armies" getting update> Xeno army getting update> IoM army > Xeno army.
Overall we still get more then most factions. but the imbalance in releases is there.
No, GW knows perfectly it's vision for CSM, unlike DE, what gw fails to realise, that their CSM infantry legionaire veteran vision, is not possible thanks to the other visions they made, aka the SM dex, the biggest dtractor namely, to fielding CSm is AP-1 .
Because why pay 14 pts for 1W that only has a 50% chance to survive the bullet?
It also doesn't help, that , all of the new HQ are imobile.
To exemplify , the MoP, would actually make Daemonengine lists, especially hybrid ones that want to melee, work, but can't ecause the MoP has no way to keep up.
Hmmm, on the subject of MOP. I was kind of comparing Venomcrawler to Forgefiend as a shooting platform. Venom Crawler is more swingy, because the damage can be anywhere from 2 damage to 18 damage. This compares to a jaws forgefiend which can do 9 to 18 damage. (both of their ranges are 36 inches). On balance, although the Forgefiend has 2 more wounds, I actually think the venom crawler might be the better shooting Daemon Engine.
The main reason is that the Venom Crawler's BS never ever degrades. It stays at 4+ no matter how badly iit is injured. Even a 1 W Venomcrawler shoots at BS 4+ Meanwhile, the minute the forgefiend is brought down to half wounds, its BS goes to 5+ and if its brought down to one third wounds, its BS becomes 6+ !!!!
Given that some terrain gives -1 to hit. I think a forgefiend will become useless in many situations more so than the Venomcrawler. So, for me, I would consider Venomcrawlers over Forgefiends.
Actually, if we think of Venomcrawlers as shooty platforms, there is no urgency to move them at their maximum movement. Just keep them alongside the slower MOP, and shoot with them until we eventually arrive near to something we do want to charge. the MOP's cursed earth is going to help alot in keeping them alive.
I've started to use venomcrawlers in the hope they blow up,run them head on to the enemy lines start eating and if they blow then your opponent has to deal.
I think this really boils down to being an effect of the Chapterhouse suit, as mentioned. Primaris getting a biker Chaplain is a good sign that biker HQ's will be rolled out as new kits (which was expected for a long time).
Why can't CSM take ancient weaponry that they kept since the HH but the loyalists can (Volkite), land speeders, mortars.
Why can't CSM use all the tanks from the HH? Sabre tank, Bombard, all the sicaran options, all the doritos options, Arquitor, basilisk, medusa.
We get a fair few of these. Vehicles don't necessarily get good upkeep, especially in the warp. They're rare for CSM. They're also rare for loyalists.
GW doesn't (and shouldn't) want CSM to be loyalist datasheets, but modeled with spikes. Yes there's a power disparity in gameplay currently, but we also get daemon engines and have a different playstyle.
Loyalists don't get Reaper Autocannons, but loyalists had them during the Heresy.
We can also ask why CSM don't have a better transport? Nobody's been able to develop an alternative mode of transportation that's better serving than the Rhino or Land Raider?
Why can't CSM have legion traits that are on part with the loyalists
Why can't CSM have legion traits that work on all their units
I think GW over values marks of Chaos. For the basic traits (-1 to hit, advance + charge, ...etc) we have parity/symmetry with loyalists.
Marks are not on the same power level as doctrines + super doctrines and it'd be great to have this changed. Personally, I don't want to go back to paying for marks, because they always felt awful.
Loyalist supplements also have unique psychic powers. Our Psychic Awakening didn't even give us 1 power per legion that uses psykers.
All of our units should get our traits since loyalists do (maybe not Cultists). It also hurts that Salamanders have a better VotLW.
Why can't CSM have models that feel like actual veterans of the long war
The new sculpts definitely do. Abaddon was a big lad and now he's further warped by Chaos.
Death guard definitely look like they've been around since the heresy. They even get Cataphractii armor. 1K Sons get Tartaros armor.
Chaos marines are finally at a better scale and getting new kits.
I'm not sure what else you would need for them to feel old? Really crappy/broken armor? Nobody's going to ban you for using MK III/IV kits for your squads. Plenty of CSM aren't veterans of the Heresy.
I feel like marks can add extra rules without breaking the game... it can be the other half of chapter tactics that loyalists get since they can have their custom 2 part chapter tactics... and it would apply to the whole army. And we’d still not be as good as space marines. But it’d be enough to keep me satisfied. Then you could make different combos based on marks of chaos and legions. God aligned obviously would be very limited but undivided and renegades should have plenty of options.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Just saw a battle report where 60 cultists were taken out in one turn (plus other stuff too). Cultists are just so fragile. These didn't die to morale (it was a 9th ed game). They were literally killed down to the last man. I am going to run Rhinos with troops in them for sure. At least if you want to get at my obsec units, you have to crack the Rhinos first.
Also, I am beginning to see how some armies make use of a super punchy, fast unit with very high saves can be used. These will move up fast, and pose an immediate threat. They often draw a massive amount of firepower because they are tough or have high saves. But the key thing is, they are kind of a trap. They are a distraction carnefix. Because the opponent is drawn into spending massive amounts of resources to wipe out this huge threatening unit, they then lack the firepower to take care of everything else. It tips the power of balance on the objectives.
If instead, you had a suitable tarpit unit that could be charged into close combat and tie up that unit. It would still be scary, but then he will be using a ton of points wrapped in that unit to destroy the tarpit unit, or he falls back and then he can't shoot or charge with his "deathstar" unit. (This only works if it is not a titanic unit). The deathstar unit in this example was this massive deathstar unit of warkicj conclave singing spears. It was huge, scary, and forced the CSM player to devote far too much resources to try and kill it.
Meanwhile, you would then able to allocate all of your firepower towards the units which are thretening the objectives and tip the power balance in your favour. I am not sure if CSM can create such a distraction carnefix so easily. But my point about the throwaway chaos knight would be one example.
Turn 1, the chaos knight stomps up the midboard, is up the in face, and towers menancingly. So on the opponent's turn, they would of course devote a lot of shooting at it to kill it. And it has a 4++ save with raise ion shields.
If we can achieve a similar effect with a purely CSM unit it would be good. Though I am not sure how. Because it needs to be a fast mobile unit that can hit hard, but is very resilient as well. Those shining spear warlock conclave used psychic to give themselves a 4++ invul. That made them pretty tough.
The shining spears deathstar is an example of a unit that can't be blocked either. Even if there were scouts deployed as blockers, that unit would have flown up the midboard and been an immediate threat once the Eldar player started his turn.
At this point, possibly Helldrakes would fill that role? Maybe? Except they aren't that tough, nor are they that scary... A buffed up flying DP with psychic or relic ?
BTW, I saw another battle report where a CSM player tried to run a Daemon engine themed list. Turn 1, 3 decimaters and 1 Lord discordant blown off the table. By turn 3, he had conceded cos he literally had nothing left. sigh.
Always run a psycher with deathhex and warptime... Then it doesn't matter what deathstar you run... mines going to be a max unit of warp talons, even if they are 27pts a model. I think my CSM list will be abbadon and 30 terminators, the aforementioned psycher and warp talons
macluvin wrote: I feel like marks can add extra rules without breaking the game... it can be the other half of chapter tactics that loyalists get since they can have their custom 2 part chapter tactics... and it would apply to the whole army. And we’d still not be as good as space marines. But it’d be enough to keep me satisfied. Then you could make different combos based on marks of chaos and legions. God aligned obviously would be very limited but undivided and renegades should have plenty of options.
IMO, they do now. Marks (or more accurately, mark-specific strats) are build-arounds for our faction. Khorne grants you access to fighting a second time (and psychic power denial if you go full Khorne w/ World Eaters). Slaanesh gives you shooting a second time with Cacophany. Tzeentch gives you +1 power per turn (weaker but only 1CP). Nurgle gives you model healing (arguably the worst of the 4). You can soup marks within several Legions/Chapters without issue or go all-in on one with others. You also unlock god-specific prayers (which aren't very good) and god-specific psychic powers (which can also be built around and all make units more durable).
The 4th ed dex required paying for them and specifically granted +1 attack, +1 toughness, +1 initiative, a 5++, or rerolling morale.
In 6th ed, it was rage & counter-attack, +1 toughness, +1 initiative, or +1 to your invuln).
In both earlier versions, Nurgle was the standout and there were mainly just fringe reasons to use the other ones (Lash Princes come to mind).
Now, while it's common to gravitate towards Slaanesh, it actually feels okay to run a mono-god army. This should largely be attributed to legion traits being a thing though.
I think there's a solution/middle ground though and it can come from buffing icons, which have always varied between awful and situational. I propose:
- Keep marks as they are (free & a keyword that enables more options).
- Make bare CSM cheap(er), but have nothing special except maybe DttFE.
- Allow any squad to take an icon (if they could currently take one) of the god they're marked with or one for undivided. The mark unlocks strats as normal. The icon confers a more relevant buff, but is more expensive.
- Slaanesh could be a buff to movement or even an increase in range like how Salamanders have increased flamer range.
- Khorne could keep rerolling charges and maybe improve consolidation movement distance. I think that +1 attack or +1 movement isn't right here.
- Nurgle could confer that +1 toughness or maybe a 6+++.
- Tzeench can be a 5++.
- Undivided needs to feel viable. Maybe an additional hit on 6's (like DttFE, but includes shooting and against not just Imperials).
With this, icons (which would definitely go up in price) go from being rarely taken to being an upgrade worth considering. Do you keep your troops very cheap (min squads of cultists), reasonable (bare CSM), or invest in them (CSM w/ an icon, cult troops, or cult troops w/ an icon)?
It would also better represent marines that have a greater affinity with their god, but doesn't leave undivided feeling pointless This might also push CSM into using larger squads for maximum benefit, which would further push our playstyle in a separate direction from loyalists.
All that being said, people are still going to point to doctrines and you could argue that these should be free buffs (or you know, remove doctrines).
Is a defiler too much at 500 points? Making lists of armies to hand out to my friends to get them to try 40k and hopefully get into occasional skirmishes with at least even if they don't build full 2k armies of their own.
Chaos list as it stands:
Red Corsairs of Khorne
Lord with fury axe
5 CSM w missile launcher
5 CSM w chainswords and pistols
Necrons nr 2:
Royal Warden, 10 warriors, 5 Immortals, 4 Scarabs, 2 Heavy Destroyers
Death Korps of Krieg 1:
Marshal, 2x10 grenadiers with plasma, 4 Deathriders, 2 Basilisks OR a Russ+Engineers
I will also throw something together from the Primaris Marines in Indomitus.
So, is the defiler overkill considering the other armies in the friend-group-meta? I'd like to use some sort of demon engine here for a bigger hitter to make the army feel a bit different from all the others going on and the defiler is iconic, classic chaos and got buffed now that it can move and shoot without -1 as well as fire flamers and autocannon in combat.
But is it too powerful? Should I take some other demon engine instead and spend the points left over to upgrade the chainsword warriors to berserkers or try to fit something like terminators into the list?
I considered obliterators, but they just don't mesh well with the list as it is. But perhaps that cyber-hound riding HQ choice and the tech spider? I am a bit of a chaos noob so no real clue about anything newer than 4th edition really.
I was thinking of putting together a squad of Iron Warriors Chosen armed with combi-bolters and chainswords and being led by a Chaos Lord and Exalted Champion. One of those two could be armed with the Spitespitter relic, and I could give them all either the mark of Khorne or Slaanesh depending on if I want them to be melee or ranged-focus. These would most likely be kept in reserves.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Just saw a battle report where 60 cultists were taken out in one turn (plus other stuff too). Cultists are just so fragile. These didn't die to morale (it was a 9th ed game). They were literally killed down to the last man. I am going to run Rhinos with troops in them for sure. At least if you want to get at my obsec units, you have to crack the Rhinos first.
Also, I am beginning to see how some armies make use of a super punchy, fast unit with very high saves can be used. These will move up fast, and pose an immediate threat. They often draw a massive amount of firepower because they are tough or have high saves. But the key thing is, they are kind of a trap. They are a distraction carnefix. Because the opponent is drawn into spending massive amounts of resources to wipe out this huge threatening unit, they then lack the firepower to take care of everything else. It tips the power of balance on the objectives.
The shining spears deathstar is an example of a unit that can't be blocked either. Even if there were scouts deployed as blockers, that unit would have flown up the midboard and been an immediate threat once the Eldar player started his turn.
At this point, possibly Helldrakes would fill that role? Maybe? Except they aren't that tough, nor are they that scary... A buffed up flying DP with psychic or relic ?
BTW, I saw another battle report where a CSM player tried to run a Daemon engine themed list. Turn 1, 3 decimaters and 1 Lord discordant blown off the table. By turn 3, he had conceded cos he literally had nothing left. sigh.
Always run a psycher with deathhex and warptime... Then it doesn't matter what deathstar you run... mines going to be a max unit of warp talons, even if they are 27pts a model. I think my CSM list will be abbadon and 30 terminators, the aforementioned psycher and warp talons
Yeah, one of my variants is also terminators. They are relatively cheap, punchy, shooty and tough. Why warptalons rather than Raptors though ? Seems like Warp Talons are kind of overcosted.
Not Online!!! wrote: I'd replace the flamers with havoc in it and maybee field a bigger csm squad instead for raptors, for a potential recycle and Bonus cp.
It would possibly make for a slightly stronger, but more static and boring list.
For 750 points, I'll likely be adding Berzerkers and upping the unit sizes, but this is more about the whole "If I put down a Defiler on the board, will it ruin the game for other players at 500 points?" or does it seem to play fair against the other lists I listed?
A defiler should be fine for a 500 points game. After all, you might see Dreadnaughts in a 500 point game as well. And a Defiler is just a slightly bigger dreadnaught...
Not Online!!! wrote: I'd replace the flamers with havoc in it and maybee field a bigger csm squad instead for raptors, for a potential recycle and Bonus cp.
It would possibly make for a slightly stronger, but more static and boring list.
For 750 points, I'll likely be adding Berzerkers and upping the unit sizes, but this is more about the whole "If I put down a Defiler on the board, will it ruin the game for other players at 500 points?" or does it seem to play fair against the other lists I listed?
I meant havoc launchers, also the bigger CSM squad can with recycling be way more mobile then the raptors, which is a sad truth.
And no you won't , a defieler is neither particulary durable nor threathening, tbh, it got decent in 8th, but i'd be more afraid of many other things, heck 2 hellbrutes with dakka setup, would make me more worried then a singular non synergy defieler really.
Neknoh wrote: Could you explain the concept of recycling?
The list is also red Corsairs in order to provide the chaos player who wished for Blood for the Blood God more opportunity to close on enemies.
I think Red corsairs has a strategem from viligence Ablaze that is called "more where they came from". For 3 CP, you can bring back an entire squad of CSM and put it back on the board like you can do cultists with the strategem tide of traitors. Think tide of traitors for CSM for 3 CP. And there is no limit to how often you want to use that strategem, unlike tide of traitors, which is limited to once per game.
Red corsairs have a stratagem for 3CP that allow them to remove a unit of CSM from the battlefield, and set them up again, at full starting strength. A CSM unit can be 20 models, you can bring back a unit that lost 19 models, and they are 20 again.
By the way, Red Corsairs seems like a very efficient way for us to get more HQs and have at least two CSM detachments without paying extra. Of course, one of them has to be red corsairs. But their trait is pretty good anyway.
So, take one detachment where your warlord is, and that detachment is free, And then soup in another detachment of Red corsairs with three CSM units and now you get back the 3CP you spent on the Red Corsairs detachment. And now you get to run 6 HQs if you want to.
Death guard and red corsairs seem like a good combo.. still wondering if there is any point bringing Huron for extra CP and stick some havocs in the backfield with him.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Just saw a battle report where 60 cultists were taken out in one turn (plus other stuff too). Cultists are just so fragile. These didn't die to morale (it was a 9th ed game). They were literally killed down to the last man. I am going to run Rhinos with troops in them for sure. At least if you want to get at my obsec units, you have to crack the Rhinos first.
Also, I am beginning to see how some armies make use of a super punchy, fast unit with very high saves can be used. These will move up fast, and pose an immediate threat. They often draw a massive amount of firepower because they are tough or have high saves. But the key thing is, they are kind of a trap. They are a distraction carnefix. Because the opponent is drawn into spending massive amounts of resources to wipe out this huge threatening unit, they then lack the firepower to take care of everything else. It tips the power of balance on the objectives.
The shining spears deathstar is an example of a unit that can't be blocked either. Even if there were scouts deployed as blockers, that unit would have flown up the midboard and been an immediate threat once the Eldar player started his turn.
At this point, possibly Helldrakes would fill that role? Maybe? Except they aren't that tough, nor are they that scary... A buffed up flying DP with psychic or relic ?
BTW, I saw another battle report where a CSM player tried to run a Daemon engine themed list. Turn 1, 3 decimaters and 1 Lord discordant blown off the table. By turn 3, he had conceded cos he literally had nothing left. sigh.
Always run a psycher with deathhex and warptime... Then it doesn't matter what deathstar you run... mines going to be a max unit of warp talons, even if they are 27pts a model. I think my CSM list will be abbadon and 30 terminators, the aforementioned psycher and warp talons
Yeah, one of my variants is also terminators. They are relatively cheap, punchy, shooty and tough. Why warptalons rather than Raptors though ? Seems like Warp Talons are kind of overcosted.
Because I used Warp Talons in my last two games, and they wrecked so much havoc with only warptime as support that its worth another 100pt per unit hike. By turn 3 in both games, different players, different armies, they were in the back field, slicing up units and shutting down tanks. Raptors would do the same, except... once they touch a unit unless I pay to have them fall back... they are going to stay stuck on the first unit I touch. I really just don't believe the point hike.. gotta see the actual points from the book first... and then... pray for a points faq.
I had them on the board. I was running a version of possessed bomb list. Opponnets in both games were totally focused on the possessed. Turn 1 warp talons meekly move up on a flank, nurglings and possessed and chaos lord move up to be killed (well just the nurglings and chaos lord). Turn 2.. warp talons get warp timed. Tri-point a vehicle or a unit, or both... next players turn.. they kill it. turn 3... we're deep in the back field tying everything up (probably lost half the unit though). Whats left of the possessed and the Tzeentch stuff... moves up to kill stuff dead, and cultists score tactical objectives. Not how I thought the list operates, but I like the warp talons being the ones that swing the game.
master of possession
Dark Apostle
Shade blade Chaos lord with jumppack (-5 to be hit, but died in combat and smites)
20 possessed
10 warp talons
3x10 cultists
Nurgle Demon Prince
poxbringer
3x3 nurglings
Tzeentch DP wings
Tzeentch DP wings
Ahriman on disc
Just watched a batrep from Tabletop Titans. Black Legion against GSC. That world Killers Strategem came into effect and was clutch. They were both quite even on points until the top of Turn 5, that's when the Black Legion player used World Killers and pulled away with the win.
Terminators are tough, but still can die. The BL player ran a max squad of 10 terminators. With Abby going up the center. All 10 terminators got wiped out. And another thing is, because a fair amount of his infantry shooting was dependent on these combi bolter terminators. When this squad died, he had a lot of problems killing Alcolytes. He had to shoot Obliterators (He ran 6 !) into Acolytes to kill them... His one squad of berzerkers helped him alot because they had so many attacks and they made it into melee. He didn't even put them in a Rhino, just ran them up the board.
And Vehicle explosions are dangerous this edition. Explosions did a lot of damage to his army. So, if you are running a ton of vehicles, or Daemon Engines, some of them will blow up.
I am going to be making use of the Alpha Legion strat about blowing up vehicles. I had thought about running a Knight Despoiler to pop tanks and then play the strat but don't know if I want to buy one just to do it.
Eldarain wrote: Between the detachment choices (and what looks like the old SupCommand) and tripointing I'm thinking that's an 8th batrep.
Yes that was 8th. In 9th.. It'll be a batallion of chaos marines and a tzeentch patrol with 2 DP. And since I have yet to leverage the demonkin specialist detachment (MoP can't keep up with possessed), the possessed are just a distraction carnifex, so I won't run demonkin specialists, and go back to using a Disco Lord as cannon fodder to keep the possessed alive until they arrive.
The nurgle demons go away, and I leverage more cultiists and 6 spawn to grab points, maybe chaos bikers too
Any opinions on dreadclaws? They have the same survivability as rhinos (minus the ability to pop smoke), 15 of movement that doesn't degrade, and fly. You can start them on the board instead of deep striking, and they can carry terminators and dreadnoughts including contemptors. According to the points leaks they're dedicated transports now, so they don't take up a fa slot. They're more expensive than a rhino (in both points and $$$) but have better mobility and more options in what they can transport. Could be a good way to get a squad of terminators on a mid board objective turn 1. They'd be a lot harder to dig out than csm.
My opinion on Dreadclaws is: One of the coolest and most iconic CSM units, I love the way they look, and I love the idea of my heretics busting out of one.
But you're paying nearly 100% than a rhino, it's almost certainly never worth it. If they became viable, I'd buy two or three immediately.
Also I don't see how they get anything anywhere T! - they don't currently have the loyalist T1 rules do they?
I feel like for the same points you should get a assault drill instead of a dreadclaw. Not sure what the sheet looks like but the assult drill is just a drop pod dreadnought
Dr.Duck wrote: I feel like for the same points you should get a assault drill instead of a dreadclaw. Not sure what the sheet looks like but the assult drill is just a drop pod dreadnought
Half the movement, no fly, can't carry terminators or dreadnoughts, but is tougher (T8 vs dreadclaw T7), and more firepower (which you pay for). To each their own YMMV.
Gadzilla666 wrote: You start them on the board instead of deep strikeing them. Just because something has deep strike doesn't mean it has to start in deep strike.
Either way, no termies on the centre objective T1, as you previously claimed. I want them to be good my dude, but they're not.
Dr.Duck wrote: I feel like for the same points you should get a assault drill instead of a dreadclaw. Not sure what the sheet looks like but the assult drill is just a drop pod dreadnought
Half the movement, no fly, can't carry terminators or dreadnoughts, but is tougher (T8 vs dreadclaw T7), and more firepower (which you pay for). To each their own YMMV.
Their firepower is a big upgrade, they're much easier to hide LoS, and they're way better in CC too, and have more wounds and better T, for 7 more points.
Only advantage is if you start the claw on the board, but then you're up ahainst the Rhino... and paying 52pt for 3" of move and fly, while losing smoke which is quite tasty.
Either way you wanna go, the claw is much worse. Termi carrying is the only advantage.
So, I got the 9th ed core rule book now. Have been looking at some of these secondary missions in detail. It strikes me that if you don't want your opponent to be able to easily max out on secondaries, there are certain ways you can kind of build your army to avoid that.
Like take for instance the secondary "Titan Slayer". If you run a knight army, or 3 LOS, you kind of gaurantee your opponent can max out the 15 points in this secondary. But if you only take 1 super heavy titanic. Then he might have to think twice about taking this secondary because the max he is going to get is 10 points from this. And if he does take this even if you only have one titanic, then you almost know for sure he is going to aim at your titanic from the get go because it is now worth 10 VP.
Another secondary is "Bring it down".
So, now each vehicle with up to 10W becomes worth 2 VP, while vehicles with more than 10W become worth 3VP. This kind of means that if we go Daemon Engine heavy, we are increasing the likelihood that our opponent will be able to max out on this secondary. Its something we have to be aware of. On the other hand, if we go with a mix. So, say we only have 4 or 5 vehicles in our army (including our Daemon Engines). This kind of also makes it very hard for them to max out on this secondary, whereas if we had 9 or 10 vehicles, then its a no brainer.
Its actually not easy to max a secondary, if you look at them. So, assuming the points are close, this could make the difference between a win and a loss. Just something to think about when designing armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thing to consider is that you can also design your army around maxing out a particular secondary. Take for example the secondary, while we stand we fight. So, take the three highest points models in our army list. For each of these three models that survive to the end of the whole game, we will get 5 VP. So 15 VP if all 3 survive to the end of the game.
Now, we can take fairly expensive characters that will then be protected by look our sir rule, and some of these characters are very tanky too. A good example would be flying darmon princes and Abbadon. If we build an army with Abaddon and 2 flying daemon princes, and we took this secondary. There could be a good chance all three characters are still alive by the end of the game, in which case we get 15 VP. It does mean we can't take vehicles that are too expensive (or a titanic).
But again, this is something we can consider when designing our list. To get more VP points while at the same time, denying our opponent the ability to max out any possible secondaries.
Also, it may be possible to plan to get 15 VP for certain secondaries. Like the grand ritual secondary. It requires a psyker to be near the centre, and the psyker has to perform this grand ritual 3 times. Its easy to cast, and its something that a sorceror can easily do as one of its casts. Just need to beware that it can be denied. But if you are constructing a list that is planning on taking the midboard anyway, it can be an option too. Especially if your opponent has no ability to deny. (maybe Tau). Just get your sorceror into the midboard and cast this 3 times and its 15 VP.
I don't have the new rulebook. Anyone have a link to a run down of all the secondaries?
CSM armies in 9th are going to be fighting for victory points more than dominating the battlefield. We're just so outclassed with shooting and combat, I don't see us dominating battlefields so much as playing for points.
And I made a mistake. Its not treated as casting of a psychic power. Taking a psychic action (like mental interrogation or that grand ritual) means you can't cast any other psychic power for that model during your psychic phase. That's kind of harsh if you need that sorceror for more than just doing a psychic action.
But at least it doesn't prevent you from taking other actions with the unit, whether its to move, or charge or fight or even shoot.
Some lists can be designed to take easy 15 VP secondaries. Like Tau can easily max out the secondary "while we stand, we fight" because they can have 3 riptides as their most expensive models, and then protect them with shield drones" The opponent is placed in a situation where, if they shoot at those 3 Riptides guarded by drones, they are not shooting at the other stuff that might be contesting objectives. But if they ignore those 3 riptides, then its an easy 15 VP in secondaries for the Tau.
I think how we design our lists to maximise VP will be important. Because I agree with you, we can't outshoot people on the battlefield. The good thing about this edition, is that we don't need to do that. You can win the battle in VP without having to kill more stuff than your opponent. BTW, no matter how killy an army you have, you can only take one secondary from each category. So, for example, you can only take one from the "purge the enemy" category. You can't choose all three from that category.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Been thinking of individual "strike forces" These are cheap enough yet powerful independent strike forces that can go and contest, win and then sit on an objective. Like take for example the below strike force:
Dark Apostle
council of traitors: blackclad brute
Relic: black mace
2 dark disciples
3 Hellbrutes, all with reaper auto cannon, hellbrute fist, combi bolter.
10 cultists.
This strike force costs 459 points. Not counting the Apostle, you need to chew through 36 wounds, of which 24 of those wounds are T7. And all of those wounds are protected by a 5++ invul bubble.
The Hellbrutes can shoot, and want to get into combat. So, whatever they can't kill by shooting, they will charge and beat up in close combat melee. The apostle himself has Str 8 attacks in close combat and is no slouch at fighting either. Meanwhile, the cultists are a cheap distraction, but being obsec, if they are on the objective, then you are assured of getting it. The 5++ invul on them just makes it even harder to get rid of them, if the opponent choose to focus on them over the hellbrutes.
The whole strike force is cheap, yet tanky and independent enough to function fine without any other support from the rest of the army.
One more thing. Played MOP before, seen MOP used lots in many battle reports before. My conclusion, if you want to use MOP for casting cursed earth, because you need that 4++ invul on your daemon engines around him, then the world bearer's MOP with that relic is probably the best bet. Otherwise, I have seen too many people fail to cast that WC7 power cursed earth just when they needed it.
How would you upgrade this Red Corsairs list to 750 points while trying to play to the strengths of the corsairs?
Chaos Lord with power axe of blind fury
5 CSM with chainswords
5 CSM with bolters and 1 missile launcher
5 Raptors w power fist
Defiler w heavy flamers and autocannons
500 on the spot.
I'm tempted to just smush together one big unit of CSM just so the player can pull them off the board and refresh them, but it just kinda feels like starting to drop a lot of units and going down to 20 CSM + Defiler would be pretty boring.
I am also not that great at building chaos in general, I don't quite know what's worth it and what's needed. I do know that Red Corsairs do want larger units and that third unit of CSM as well.
But do I just chuck in a second 5-man squad of chainswords and cram as many CSM into the bolter squad as possible? Do I go oblits or terminators? Like, what do I do with the remaining 180 points after those 5 CSM for the extra CP?
At least 5 more CSM for the bolter squad I would assume, so 110 points left... now what? Upgrade the lord to a Disco lord so that I have two daemon engines? A single oblit? 5 more CSM and a jump pack for the lord? I'm kind of lost.
I’d look at a Sorcerer with Warptime, and a bikers unit with Flamers
Advance and fire three Flamers, then charge, alongside a Warptimed Defiler
CP galore works great when you’ve got something to spend them on, in a 750 game you’re going to find it tight to field three troops and also have a lot of working parts
Leveraging advance & charge enables potential to contest enemy objectives on the first turn, speed bump their infantry, or shut down their gunner
Could even Warptime the bikers after they advance, for a real deep insertion
Bonus: Huron likes his bikes, this is rather thematic
Neknoh wrote: How would you upgrade this Red Corsairs list to 750 points while trying to play to the strengths of the corsairs?
Chaos Lord with power axe of blind fury
5 CSM with chainswords
5 CSM with bolters and 1 missile launcher
5 Raptors w power fist
Defiler w heavy flamers and autocannons
500 on the spot.
I'm tempted to just smush together one big unit of CSM just so the player can pull them off the board and refresh them, but it just kinda feels like starting to drop a lot of units and going down to 20 CSM + Defiler would be pretty boring.
I am also not that great at building chaos in general, I don't quite know what's worth it and what's needed. I do know that Red Corsairs do want larger units and that third unit of CSM as well.
But do I just chuck in a second 5-man squad of chainswords and cram as many CSM into the bolter squad as possible? Do I go oblits or terminators? Like, what do I do with the remaining 180 points after those 5 CSM for the extra CP?
At least 5 more CSM for the bolter squad I would assume, so 110 points left... now what? Upgrade the lord to a Disco lord so that I have two daemon engines? A single oblit? 5 more CSM and a jump pack for the lord? I'm kind of lost.
At some point, start to introduce psyker into the army. Chaos spells are very powerful and the player needs to learn how to use and defend against psykic. So either add in a sorceror, or upgrade the chaos lord to a Daemon Prince.
Jumppack sorcerer to be excact, mobility. Either warptime, deathhex or prescience on it for babysitting the good ol defieler. <which is a good start to teaching synergy.
The rest of the pts into a another small CSM squad to get a battalion. ( that way
I'd still replace the heavy flamer with a havoc launcher on the defieler..
If you go to 1000 I 'd expand all CSM squads to 10, simply for the fact that i found that to be the sweet spot for no shortage and survivablity to trigger it.
>
BTW, alot of new FAQs have dropped. But by and large it seems that faith and fury and our CSM codex 2 are mostly untouched. So, based on that, Abaddon still adds 2CP to your army, and Red Corsairs also add CP to your army simply by being red corsairs.
Hence, for those that want to soup in either additional detachment or other chaos detachment, then right now, Black Legion and Red Corsairs allow you to do that without taking much of a CP hit.
Eldenfirefly wrote: BTW, alot of new FAQs have dropped. But by and large it seems that faith and fury and our CSM codex 2 are mostly untouched. So, based on that, Abaddon still adds 2CP to your army, and Red Corsairs also add CP to your army simply by being red corsairs.
Hence, for those that want to soup in either additional detachment or other chaos detachment, then right now, Black Legion and Red Corsairs allow you to do that without taking much of a CP hit.
probably make RC lord discordant battalion quite interesting as an add on.
you get advance + charge on them ontop of a selfpaying battalion if you field 3x5 marines.
Vice versa you could go cheap and add mostly sorcerers instead.
Huron also does give CP to my knowledge, and he didn't hike i feel so that makes him actually quite decent, funny thing too, Huron made me start CSM
Alright! With your advice I've cooked up the following for the 750 points of Red Corsairs:
Lord w blind fury
Sorcerer w force axe, smite and warptime
5 CSM with chainswords
5 CSM with bolters and 1 missile launcher
5 bikers with (if I understand it properly) flamers AND combi flamers. Or is this a needlessly excessive cost? Also got an Icon of Wrath and a power axe on the aspiring.
5 Raptors with Icon of Wrath and a power fist
Defiler, still with twin heavy flamers and the reaper autocannons. Perhaps I should drop an Icon to try to make room for a havoc, but I am assuming that it's blast and the short range, fire in combat 2D6 gun feels as if it would encourage the player to close with the defiler rather than sit back.
There's not really a wrong playstyle for the defieler though, it's just that the flamer is bad.
ATM: you pay 22 pts LESS for a havoc launcher instead of a twin heavy flamer. and even in 9th you will pay less for the havoc, (infact the havoc got cheaper in 9th even though it gained blast.)
BTW: the sorcerer can pick 2 powers and baseline knows smite.
I'd not equip flamers on the bikers, it's indeed excessively overcosted, the combibolter is good enough since it allways rapid fires on top of a bike.
Distance of the midpoint objectives to our deployment zone is quite reachable even for infantry. Objectives are 40mm in diameter, and you only need to be within 3 inches to contest it.
Consider this:
2000 point strike force missions:
1) Retrieval Mission: Your deployment zone is only 4 inches from two of the midboard objectives and 20 inches from the other two. In turn 1, you can literally move onto your closest midboard objectives, and by turn 2, you are within charge roll of the other two.
2) FrontLine warfare: Your deployment zone is 12 inches away from the midboard obj. Again, considering you just need to be within 3 inches of the 40 mm diameter objective, a good advance roll even for normal infantry will literally put you within that 3 inches on turn 1. And if you go second and your opponent already has stuff on the objective, then you can literally move normally and be within good charging distance as well.
3) The Four Pillars: Your deployment zone is 10 inches from 1 midboard obj, 15 inches from the other. Again, 10 inches is literally a move advance away for even infantry. Actually, given the size of the objective, I think even a normal move will get you to within 3 inches on turn 1 already.
4) No-Man's Land: your deployment zone is 12 inches away from the two midboard obectives. So, same as Front line warfare.
5) Scorched Earth: and vital intelligence. Same thing. midboard obj are 12 inches away from your deployment zone. So, very reachable.
Based on this, unless your opponent intends to give up the midboard objectives totally. Both you and him can bring to bear lots of forces by turn 2 (possibly even turn 1). And this is even with "slow moving" infantry.
And I know a lot of people still think shooting is king this edition. But again, the midboard objectives have sort of changed things up. Consider this. Say turn 2, you push onto a midboard with a successful charge with your infantry units and they are stuck in combat. (Let's assume both sides have enough units so that neither side suceeds in wiping the other side off for now). So, now, beginning of turn 3, all the midboard are contested. Now, will your opponent decide to fall back and use shooting to blast you off that objective? Let's say he decides to do that. He risks 2 things.
1) He tries his best, but fails to shoot you off that objective. And he already fell back his own units. So, you get to score VP while he doesn't. It will be Turn 4 before he gets to charge his units back into the fray. And he will NOT get to score VP until the start of his turn 5, even if he cleared you off.
2) He suceeds in shooting you off that objective. But again, his troops fell back in turn 3. So, at most only by turn 4, can he then move in his units to the now vacated objective and again, he only can start scoring VP for that by the start of his turn 5.
So, because of these considerations. Having strong shooting and relying on that to clear units off an objective is... not always going to be a winning strategy. So, based on this, Melee is pretty important this edition. Because with melee, you charge onto an objective, kill the troops on that objective and then you consolidate 3 inches to boot so you get to reposition yourself. If you rely on melee to get the job done, you set yourself up to immediately start scoring VPs on that objective at the start of your next turn. Whereas if you rely on shooting to get the job done. You only set yourself up to score two turns later even in the most optimal circumstances.
Disagree, giving up T1 scoring might be very well worth it if you can guarantee a butchering of enemy units. Can all armies pull something like this off?
No, will armies like marines etc be capable enough doing so, yes.
Erm, I think you need to elaborate. What do you mean by T1 scoring? You can't score any objective VP on turn 1... Do you mean, have a shooting army that blasts away the entire opponent's army on turn 1... well, that's what obscuring terrain was supposed to address...
Also, what I was trying to bring across is that Shooting isn't all powerful in 9th ed. Melee still has a place in 9th ed, and a pretty important place too.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Erm, I think you need to elaborate. What do you mean by T1 scoring? You can't score any objective VP on turn 1... Do you mean, have a shooting army that blasts away the entire opponent's army on turn 1... well, that's what obscuring terrain was supposed to address...
No i meant you pull defense in depth.
Basically you concede land to preserve men and lure the enemy, in this case the player attempting to rush midfield into your fireing line.
He can't score until T2 for him anyways, you blasting happily away at his units there allows you to potentially significantly weaken the enemy before you get to counter attack, if done correctly and having enough firepower you will basically have crippled your opponent from T2 onwards to a degree that you can dominate more of the board easier.
As for terain, that has a whole lot of issues attached to it, last but not least that RAW for it atm is WONKEY, but also even more depending on how a table is set up.
Further, i seriously doubt alot of armies even have the required staying power to remain in the midfield long enough for the scoring to reward them for it.
Also, what I was trying to bring across is that Shooting isn't all powerful in 9th ed. Melee still has a place in 9th ed, and a pretty important place too.
melee will be forced into the same it was in 8th, a slew of units with movement shenaningans punching above their weight class either or as a part of such acounter offensive plan.
Khorne berzerkers might verywell even in 5 man squads outright butcher anything they charge in the middle field but lack the staying power.
The Defiler's main selling point is its durability vs cost. It has enough damage dealing capability that you can't afford to ignore it in any loadout. Spending more points on it hurts its main advantage of being very cheap for how hard to kill it is.
Generally you'll get a better return off putting points into upgrading other unit's firepower instead.
Yes exactly and to that I'll add punching the lights out of most things including threatening even knights. Maaaybe one exception would be a pair of twin Las defilers supported by proper buffs to save pts. But even then your only 85 pts away from EC Las havocs so upgrading defilers is more downgrading to the army.
And I feel Blast is getting overrated with maybe a few exceptions. Actually obsec is too, to an extent. In certain context it is a game winning strategy. For csm I don't feel it will be. Typically, although certain builds ya maybe such as DG for example. But it doesn't change much for chaos marines being trash.
Yeah, CSM troops just aren't that good. Except maybe mass cultists as a meatshield, and that's if you buff them up. I have tried mass cultists with 5++ invul plus FNP (delightful agonies). Its a pain to remove, plus if your opponent fails to remove the whole block, then use a tide of traitors and they are all back.
My point about Blast was actually less about the possibility of getting those max hits and more about the inability to fire the weapon in melee.
At a 25 point difference, there isn't a whole lot I could do with a 500 point list for those extra points by downgrading it, but some options are:
Jump Pack on the chaos Lord
Plasma pistols for the vulture squad
Another special or heavy weapon for the CSM squads
At higher points, this might be more valuable to work with, but at 500, I don't quite see anything other than the jump pack as being possibly worth dropping the heavy flamer for.
Neknoh wrote: My point about Blast was actually less about the possibility of getting those max hits and more about the inability to fire the weapon in melee.
At a 25 point difference, there isn't a whole lot I could do with a 500 point list for those extra points by downgrading it, but some options are:
Jump Pack on the chaos Lord
Plasma pistols for the vulture squad
Another special or heavy weapon for the CSM squads
At higher points, this might be more valuable to work with, but at 500, I don't quite see anything other than the jump pack as being possibly worth dropping the heavy flamer for.
I think you'd get more out of more weapons on the CSM, and Jump Pack on the lord is a very good thing.
Neknoh wrote: My point about Blast was actually less about the possibility of getting those max hits and more about the inability to fire the weapon in melee.
At a 25 point difference, there isn't a whole lot I could do with a 500 point list for those extra points by downgrading it, but some options are:
Jump Pack on the chaos Lord
Plasma pistols for the vulture squad
Another special or heavy weapon for the CSM squads
At higher points, this might be more valuable to work with, but at 500, I don't quite see anything other than the jump pack as being possibly worth dropping the heavy flamer for.
You could get a spawn.
Which is actually not a bad choice.
If we take a Nurgle batallion. So everything is mark of nurgle. This means we can bring
Abaddon, any characters, Nurglings, Any other CSM units which are mark of nurgle. Correct? Still battle forged detachment right?
The only thing is we now lose the legion trait. We can still use CSM strategems right? We do lose Cacophony though...
If we take a Nurgle batallion. So everything is mark of nurgle. This means we can bring
Abaddon, any characters, Nurglings, Any other CSM units which are mark of nurgle. Correct? Still battle forged detachment right?
The only thing is we now lose the legion trait. We can still use CSM strategems right? We do lose Cacophony though...
You need a pure CSM detachment to unlock the Strats.
If you had a CSM Patrol and a mixed Nurgle Battalion, you could use the CSM strats on units from the Nurgle Battalion, but if you ONLY had the mixed Nurgle Battalion, you would not unlock any strats at all.
If we take a Nurgle batallion. So everything is mark of nurgle. This means we can bring
Abaddon, any characters, Nurglings, Any other CSM units which are mark of nurgle. Correct? Still battle forged detachment right?
The only thing is we now lose the legion trait. We can still use CSM strategems right? We do lose Cacophony though...
You need a pure CSM detachment to unlock the Strats.
If you had a CSM Patrol and a mixed Nurgle Battalion, you could use the CSM strats on units from the Nurgle Battalion, but if you ONLY had the mixed Nurgle Battalion, you would not unlock any strats at all.
Ah I see! Thanks! Bringing Abbadon and then taking a mixed patrol detachment seems like a pretty good deal to me. The patrol detachment cost is paid for by Abbadon and in the mixed nurgle patrol, we can take everything from nurglings to deathguard units like Plague burst crawlers to nurgle daemons.
Going to try my first 1,000 pt game of 9th game this weekend. What do you guys think of something like this? Still gotta tinker with points but I'm a little concerned running 5 man squads isn't going to be survivable enough.
l0k1 wrote: Going to try my first 1,000 pt game of 9th game this weekend. What do you guys think of something like this? Still gotta tinker with points but I'm a little concerned running 5 man squads isn't going to be survivable enough.
Black Legion Battalion
Abaddon
Dark Apostle
Sorcerer
4 5 man CSM squads with 1 Missile Launcher
1 5 man Havoc Squad with 4 Lascanonns
1 5 man Havoc Squad with 4 Autocannons
5 man squads are quite survivable if you have enough different ones, the missile launcher with the improvement it got in 9th could be interesting. The list may bee a bit too slugish on the field but it should be workable so long you can have the havocs survive?
I'd assume you'd run prescience and warptime for the sorcerer, maybee warpsight on the DA?
l0k1 wrote: Going to try my first 1,000 pt game of 9th game this weekend. What do you guys think of something like this? Still gotta tinker with points but I'm a little concerned running 5 man squads isn't going to be survivable enough.
Black Legion Battalion
Abaddon
Dark Apostle
Sorcerer
4 5 man CSM squads with 1 Missile Launcher
1 5 man Havoc Squad with 4 Lascanonns
1 5 man Havoc Squad with 4 Autocannons
5 man squads are quite survivable if you have enough different ones, the missile launcher with the improvement it got in 9th could be interesting. The list may bee a bit too slugish on the field but it should be workable so long you can have the havocs survive?
I'd assume you'd run prescience and warptime for the sorcerer, maybee warpsight on the DA?
Correct on the psyker powers. DA was going to get either Warpsight or Benediction. I'm also thinking of doing Council of traitors, giving the DA Black Clad Brute and the Black Mace. Sorcerer would get Trusted War Leader. MoS on everything but the regular CSM.
Hmmm, Abaddon seems very expensive for a 1000 points game. Your characters take up 40% of your army ... Well, it might work I suppose, but you need to make your characters do work. They can't afford to hang back. Abaddon especially needs to be leading the charge.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmmm, Abaddon seems very expensive for a 1000 points game. Your characters take up 40% of your army ... Well, it might work I suppose, but you need to make your characters do work. They can't afford to hang back. Abaddon especially needs to be leading the charge.
These are high damage, long range, single shot weapons. Abaddon's reroll aura increases chances to hit by about 16% and his morale immunity aura will probably be important.
Is that worth it?
If this list is going to fight tanks / elite troops / etc, yes. Hordes no.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmmm, Abaddon seems very expensive for a 1000 points game. Your characters take up 40% of your army ... Well, it might work I suppose, but you need to make your characters do work. They can't afford to hang back. Abaddon especially needs to be leading the charge.
These are high damage, long range, single shot weapons. Abaddon's reroll aura increases chances to hit by about 16% and his morale immunity aura will probably be important.
Is that worth it?
If this list is going to fight tanks / elite troops / etc, yes. Hordes no.
Well, I'll most likely either be playing against Guard, Blood Angels, or Sisters. I know my buddy doesn't run mechanized Sisters or Blood Angels. So the Lascannons may turn out to be overkill.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmmm, Abaddon seems very expensive for a 1000 points game. Your characters take up 40% of your army ... Well, it might work I suppose, but you need to make your characters do work. They can't afford to hang back. Abaddon especially needs to be leading the charge.
These are high damage, long range, single shot weapons. Abaddon's reroll aura increases chances to hit by about 16% and his morale immunity aura will probably be important.
Is that worth it?
If this list is going to fight tanks / elite troops / etc, yes. Hordes no.
Well, I'll most likely either be playing against Guard, Blood Angels, or Sisters. I know my buddy doesn't run mechanized Sisters or Blood Angels. So the Lascannons may turn out to be overkill.
Thinking about adding a 20 man unit of plague marines to my Black legion army to act as my front line for Abaddon.
The other option is 2 land raiders loaded with chainhavocs and combi-chosen for a lot of firepower in... fairly tough? shells. Probably having a Dark Apostle give illusory supplication to the land raiders and cast Delightful agonies on one to make it really durable.
blackmage wrote: if someone think in 9th ed to grab and hold objective with 5 FOOTSLOGGED chaos marines...good luck.
I think everyone's figured out we need transports. It'll be nice to dust off the old rhinos. Thinking about taking out my Hellforged Achilles as well. Load it up with some combi-plasma chosen, let's see how long it takes those loyalist melta punks to shoot through that. And yes, I know it isn't efficient, it'll still be fun.
blackmage wrote: if someone think in 9th ed to grab and hold objective with 5 FOOTSLOGGED chaos marines...good luck.
Well 1 squad yes 2 squads are allready annoying 6 squads with the occaisonal Big gun are starting to really bother people generally.
Mostly because often people Overkill 1 unit only to lack for the Next two.
blackmage wrote: if someone think in 9th ed to grab and hold objective with 5 FOOTSLOGGED chaos marines...good luck.
Well 1 squad yes 2 squads are allready annoying 6 squads with the occaisonal Big gun are starting to really bother people generally.
Mostly because often people Overkill 1 unit only to lack for the Next two.
not so much, a decent competitive list take easily out at least 3 squad/turn and then you have no way to hold obj, you score at start turn so you have to survive 1 full turn, i have some games in my basket, there are ton of firepower out there folks...
And the objectives cannot be in cover, so whoever is on the objectives are out in the open ready to be charged and shot at. The objectives are death traps. But everyone will still do their best to get units on them ... because VP are everything now. You could lose most of your army, even your warlord, and its irrelevant as long as you are ahead in VP and you maintain your lead.
Even your warlord is now a dispensable unit. (unless your opponent took slay the warlord, or unless you took united we stand and your warlord is one of your most expensive models). Actually, I just double checked the rulebook. Tabling an opponent doesn't gaurantee you an auto win at all. You simply play our the rest of the battle without your opponent and then the two of you tally up the points. It still boils down to VP. If your opponent tables you on turn 4, but can only move his units onto the objectives on turn 5, he gets zero benefit from that because he can't still doesn't score any VP for that. (since VP are scored at the start of the turn).
Emperors Children Mutilators are sneaky good objective takers, Deepstrike, charge a unit on an objective, (using the turn 1 dice into a 6 on the charge strat). Wipe the unit and then watch as they have t shift a 3w 2+ 5++ model that costs 35 pts.
demontalons wrote: Emperors Children Mutilators are sneaky good objective takers, Deepstrike, charge a unit on an objective, (using the turn 1 dice into a 6 on the charge strat). Wipe the unit and then watch as they have t shift a 3w 2+ 5++ model that costs 35 pts.
Usually 5 man squads, which if you havent whiddled them down to that by the shooting phase youre doing something wrong. But basic troops, they can take care of, but the important thing is once theyre on an objective they require a large amount of firepower to shift.
i saw play mutilators, they dont do anything better than EC termy does. last game i had 3 mutilators charged primaris and they neede 2 turns to kill them and 1 mutilator only survived. For me no sense, they are just cheap. Anywya if you like play EC maybe yes a 3man unit can be played, but i still prefer greatly termies, 40 plasma shots and then they charge, with elixir veteran of long war and excess of violence they delete almost anything. EC lists have a problem....noise cost too much and die too easy, compared to DG (guess actually the best competitive legion) they are overcostly glass cannons, if i play EC maybe just a vanguard with 2xmutilators and plasma termies
blackmage wrote: i saw play mutilators, they dont do anything better than EC termy does. last game i had 3 mutilators charged primaris and they neede 2 turns to kill them and 1 mutilator only survived. For me no sense, they are just cheap. Anywya if you like play EC maybe yes a 3man unit can be played, but i still prefer greatly termies, 40 plasma shots and then they charge, with elixir veteran of long war and excess of violence they delete almost anything. EC lists have a problem....noise cost too much and die too easy, compared to DG (guess actually the best competitive legion) they are overcostly glass cannons, if i play EC maybe just a vanguard with 2xmutilators and plasma termies
What kind of primaris were they fighting? I am kind of surprised the primaris managed to kill 2 Mutilators considering that Mutilators are quite tanky.
2 attacks atleast and the occaisional hammer do allow for some decent chance at failing save throws.
That said, if he charged a 10 man squad hed' have to have some serious bad luck, which is quite possible considering the random nature.
blackmage wrote: i saw play mutilators, they dont do anything better than EC termy does. last game i had 3 mutilators charged primaris and they neede 2 turns to kill them and 1 mutilator only survived. For me no sense, they are just cheap. Anywya if you like play EC maybe yes a 3man unit can be played, but i still prefer greatly termies, 40 plasma shots and then they charge, with elixir veteran of long war and excess of violence they delete almost anything. EC lists have a problem....noise cost too much and die too easy, compared to DG (guess actually the best competitive legion) they are overcostly glass cannons, if i play EC maybe just a vanguard with 2xmutilators and plasma termies
What kind of primaris were they fighting? I am kind of surprised the primaris managed to kill 2 Mutilators considering that Mutilators are quite tanky.
4xagressors over an objective behind a ruin, more than enough to give hell to mutilators
blackmage wrote: i saw play mutilators, they dont do anything better than EC termy does. last game i had 3 mutilators charged primaris and they neede 2 turns to kill them and 1 mutilator only survived. For me no sense, they are just cheap. Anywya if you like play EC maybe yes a 3man unit can be played, but i still prefer greatly termies, 40 plasma shots and then they charge, with elixir veteran of long war and excess of violence they delete almost anything. EC lists have a problem....noise cost too much and die too easy, compared to DG (guess actually the best competitive legion) they are overcostly glass cannons, if i play EC maybe just a vanguard with 2xmutilators and plasma termies
What kind of primaris were they fighting? I am kind of surprised the primaris managed to kill 2 Mutilators considering that Mutilators are quite tanky.
4xagressors over an objective behind a ruin, more than enough to give hell to mutilators
wellp, but you charged right? So you got pretty unlucky with the rolls or how did they manage to fight back?
Maybe they popped transhuman strategem. I have watched quite a few games of 40k 9th ed. now. Its not just one big unit vs another big unit. You have to factor in strategems possibly being used by both sides.
In a deathguard vs Salamanders matchup on tabletop titans. A full squad of 10 stormshield terminators charged a full squad of 10 blightlords. The blightlords actually fought first because they had a character that removed the effects of charge. But the terminators not only weathered their attacks, but also struck back, then fought twice, and killed off the blightlords. Strategems make a very big difference. If you have a huge beefy unit that is a big core of your army, you will use all available strategems to give you the edge, when it fights another big unit.
We may need to consider what other armies will be bringing to the table to get that objective. Somehow, 10 chaos terminators now seem to be a lot more flimsy than I first thought ,,,
Or we admit that 40k has turned in essence into Magic combo wombo...
Rellying more on gimmicks and secondaries that are often more oppresive than complete counter lists and the tailoring included for many an army.
Eldenfirefly wrote: We may need to consider what other armies will be bringing to the table to get that objective. Somehow, 10 chaos terminators now seem to be a lot more flimsy than I first thought ,,,
This was my experience. I had full unit of 10 terminators with combi-bolters, chainaxes and chainfists in the middle with Abby and some chosen, and basically everything died in one turn to 1k sons psychic and shooting phases. The psychic phase I anticipated to lose a lot in and didn't have adequate counters to but 1 rubric squad was able to double shoot I think 3 terminators off the board an an entire 5 man bike squad on another objective in 1 turn.
yes you can fight 1st but...when you wound on 4's with just 12 attacks hitting on3's you cant kill enough then they fight back with their power fist, you dont kill them and next turn if you survived the melee you are whipped off table anyway. Again they are a decent choice in a EC list but just as distraction, main task should be made by EC termies, better if you give them plasma/melta
Well I swapped Abaddon out of my list for a terminator lord with combi melta/power fist, dropped a 5 man squad, and added 2 rhinos.
My buddy played guard. He ran a hellhound, 3 chimera, a sentinel, a lemon russ with punisher, a Wyvern(I think), creed, a techpriest, 2 infantry squads and a veteran squad.
I won by a solid margin. His dice rolls were hating on him and I made good use of cover. I was able to keep him off of the objectives for most of the game. Rhinos are too expensive for my taste but were well worth the points as LOS blockers. Lascannon Havocs getting prescience and endless cacophony deleted vehicles. Im glad I didn't bring cultists this game cuz his russ would've wiped them all out in no time. My 5 man squads did fairly well in cover. He was able to pop a few of the guys but took more firepower than it should've to wipe a 5 man squad. Mistakes were made on my part by not taking bring it down as a secondary(I had assassinate, thinking about squishy sergents), but it would've been overkill. Black legion trait only really helped once or twice with morale. The warlord trait to refund command points was clutch since it allowed me to use endless cacophony more. The smaller game board also worked to my advantage since it probably saved me a turn of movement to get to objectives. I really need to convert some sorcerers and lords with jump packs(probably just use possessed winged back packs).
I'm not feeling Abaddon in 9th edition. It might be the tables I'm using on TTS but it feels like I'm trapping myself in my deployment zone and concentrating my force in one area. I have 0 board influence and am struggling to get points beyond kill secondaries, but my opponents blow me away on primaries so it doesn't matter.
But then one wonders why one would even go Black Legion, since the major gain there is Abaddon's re-roll aura...
I wish I had a better idea of what a "normal" board is going to look like, because the "pro" ones I've found on TTS are very boring symmetrical affairs with obscuring terrain blocking the corners of your deployment zone (so deep strikers can drop in unmolested unless you have units to spare to screen) and a blocking obscuring terrain across the middle of the deployment zone so you have to deploy exposed to a flank or at least choose 1 and commit if you're balling up around buffers like Abaddon and Dark Apostles.
Kind of frustrating. I was having a better time in 8th edition where the play style worked. Now I don't know what to do with the legion boys.
Abaddon needs to move aggressively such that he threatens a midboard objective on T2. He is wasted if we are just going to keep him on our home objective to buff shooters. If we are going to do that, then I might as well run a termi lord. The reroll is less powerful, but I would be saving over 100 points.
We need to be aggressive with him such that opponent is forced to deal with him. But I do feel that Abaddon is a challenge is use properly. You almost always have to build a list around him, and yet when you do that, you tend to cluster too much around him, which leads to over focusing on one point.
After my game last weekend I though about what difference Abaddon would've made and I agree that Abaddon NEEDS to be in the thick of things to get his true value. If you want to walk him to the midfield I'd have him walking with a couple squads of Havocs since they take no penalty to moving and shooting heavy weapons. Though with his warlord trait making Death to the false Emperor a 5+, and his Aura I'm more inclined to run him with combi plasma terminators. They're cheap durable can make decent use of both of his buffs.
Well, yea that's what I'm doing... I'm giving a mobile firebase re-rolls but due to terrain I can't move out of deployment zone into good positions easily. And I can't get to objectives outside of my deployment zone.
edit: and because of obscuring terrain, I can't bring my firepower to bear on enough of the enemy army to matter much, and all of my units are squishy,
Rihgu wrote: Well, yea that's what I'm doing... I'm giving a mobile firebase re-rolls but due to terrain I can't move out of deployment zone into good positions easily. And I can't get to objectives outside of my deployment zone.
edit: and because of obscuring terrain, I can't bring my firepower to bear on enough of the enemy army to matter much, and all of my units are squishy,
Can I ask why terrain is preventing you from moving out of deployment? Because If you are using Abaddon and mostly infantry units around him, then they are not stopped by terrain like ruins, they just go straight through. So unless your board has a lot of obstacles terrain ? If you are running Abaddon alongside daemon engines then yeah, it would be a problem, because he is significantly slower than Darmon Engines plus everything would be somewhat hindered by terrain. If you are doing that, you probably have to set him and his engines up in a clear lane to walk through from the very start and just take any shooting that comes his way.
One issue I face with Pairing up Abby with Havocs though. Abby tends to want to charge straight forward, while Havocs often want to position sideways to gain a better firing arc. (If its range, then lascannon Havocs are already in range, so moving forward doesn't benefit them at all). So, it is a bit of a conundrum.
More than one faction seems to be considering bring a lot of vehicles. And transports got a boost this edition too. So, I wonder if a list with few or zero vehicles would be kind of a counter meta list.
Eldenfirefly I've been thinking MSU in transports were going to be big again this edition. A list with little to no vehicles could work. Utilize deep strike and fast infantry. Perhaps a bike based list?
And it makes sense not to overcharge also. Which is why I feel that we should assume plama gun's usefullness based on not overcharging. Its too painful to overcharge and lose a terminator, especially in this new edition where staying power is important.
