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 BlaxicanX wrote:
Also, combi weapons are the same price as all their non-combi equivalents, so there's never any reason to take say a plasma gun or melta gun over a combi plasma or combi melta if you have a choice.

All that said, I would caution anyone against making modelling choices based upon the current 9th Ed points, as they are going to change...











... we hope.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
An interesting quirk of 9th edition that I noticed today. If you took a black legion terminator armed with a combi-plasma, and you:
-Advance
-Fire both the bolter and plasma profiles at the same time
-Target someone benefiting from dense cover or a -1 to hit trait

All at the same time, that terminator would still be hitting on 4s, as to hit penalties don't stack.

Also, combi weapons are the same price as all their non-combi equivalents, so there's never any reason to take say a plasma gun or melta gun over a combi plasma or combi melta if you have a choice.

Yeah, this is an interesting fact. And it makes sense not to overcharge also. Which is why I feel that we should assume plama gun's usefullness based on not overcharging. Its too painful to overcharge and lose a terminator, especially in this new edition where staying power is important.

That would definitely sting. On the other hand, five chosen with five plasma guns are only are only 125 points. I'm toying with the idea of taking maybe 2x10 terminators, a squad of plasma chosen and Abaddon and throwing them up the field, advancing and firing pretty much everything they have with abaddon's reroll. You could even overcharge the plasma guns if you needed to, stacking it with veterans of the long war to pop a vehicle in a pinch, and if you lose one who cares.

Speaking of good ol' Dooby, I don't own the newer plastic one. I only own the original version (two of them... for some reason...).

Would people get annoyed at me for using that mini?

Nope. You'd be hurting yourself with the smaller base for his powerful aura and if you made a diorama of him standing atop dead Blood Angels on his new base it would be a nostalgic gem from Mackan.

I thought more about the mutilator option. And there is one strike against using Mutilators. If you are using Terminators, even after you have taken an objective, you still have a threat range of 24 inches from your shooting. And that covers a lot of space if you are at the midboard, or if you are on an enemy objective.

For mutilators, the issue is after you have taken an objective, you don't apply any more pressure if your opponent gives up that objective. The only pressure you exert is to take victory points by being on that objective. Its not a small thing obviously, but terminators do everything that mutilators are doing, plus they can also shoot.

But there could still be a case to be made for taking mutilators due to the rule of three. So, if you have maxed out on three terminator units already, and you still want more units that function like a termi unit, then its either oblits or mutilators.

That's fair. I'm very much going to try them for their Daemon synergy.

I'm bringing MoP already. GUO bringing them back, a 0+ save near trees, Virulent+ Vets making them wrecking balls etc.

Not shooting might lend them to performing the new actions without worrying about canceling them. Not in a rush to play games so haven't been studying up on the minutia yet. Being at all excited to work on Chaos stuff is nice though.

Might be the first time they've appealed at all and my Gal Vorbak and Blade Slaves will make them look good

Tbh, the easiest Way for mutilators to work is if you bottle in your enemy, and use them with the RC trait.

Well, world eaters and Alpha legion both have that "scout move"strategy they can use on infantry units. So, both of these legions can use their respective strategems to scout move Mutilators forward by 9 inches. That would likely bring it to move and charge range of a midboard objective by turn 1. (given that we are separated by 24 inches at the start).

Emperor's children also have the strategem to replace a charge die with a 6, which gives a very high chance of success of a charge from deep strike suceeding.

however, both the alpha legion and world eater strategems can be countered by scouts already deployed on midboard objectives, which would push us back to our deployment zone. There is good and bad in that. Because while we start in our deployment zone. The prescense of scouts 9 inches away means that they have given us an easy kill on turn 1. If we go first, our mutilator squad can forward, and be in quite easy charge range of the scouts. We will likely make the charge, kill the scout unit and then consolidate forward. That would be at least 9 + 3 inches all in, which would have us end up pretty much at midboard anyway.

The problem is if they start first. A smart player would move the scouts to 1.1 inches away from our mutilators. So, now, our turn, we engage and kill the scout unit, but end up at most 4.1 inches forward from our deployment zone. To a mutilator unit, that is bad. We are nowhere near midboad.

The issue, which has always been the case with pure CSM, is that we literally have no scout units. It was possible to dip into nurgle daemons to get nurgling for scouts in 8th ed, but now, we have to pay CP to do that. Just one more thing to consider about 9th edition. Now that I think about it. Scouts are a double edged sword now. Would you really want to deploy them so far forward at 9 inches away from opponent, if you knew the opponent would definitely be able to charge and kill you ? Because who goes first is now down to a rolloff. So, if you lost the roll off and we start first, then placing your scouts so close just enabled us to move foward, charge and kill your scouts and then consolidate forward further, which means your scouts served as a slingshot for our mutilators.

I think you want to be deepstriking mutilators. With only 3 40mm bases you will find somewhere to drop them and at only 105pts just letting them sit and get linebacker isn't that bad a deal.

If you can drop them on an empty objective then they will take some sustained firepower to remove them and your opponent won't be particularly keen on charging them so won't able to contest the objective until the turn after they shoot them off it.

If you need them to clear an objective, hopefully they make the 9" charge, but even if they don't, whereas in 8th they were easy to kite, your opponent will want to stay where they are so next turn you're looking at a 5" charge.

You are presenting a unit that your opponent will want to deal with as soon as they can. Their three wounds means most anti-primaris or terminator weaponry is inefficient and they effectively give you 6 terminators worth of durability for 105pts. Not bad even if they never reach combat

Abaddon303 wrote:
I think you want to be deepstriking mutilators. With only 3 40mm bases you will find somewhere to drop them and at only 105pts just letting them sit and get linebacker isn't that bad a deal.

If you can drop them on an empty objective then they will take some sustained firepower to remove them and your opponent won't be particularly keen on charging them so won't able to contest the objective until the turn after they shoot them off it.

If you need them to clear an objective, hopefully they make the 9" charge, but even if they don't, whereas in 8th they were easy to kite, your opponent will want to stay where they are so next turn you're looking at a 5" charge.

You are presenting a unit that your opponent will want to deal with as soon as they can. Their three wounds means most anti-primaris or terminator weaponry is inefficient and they effectively give you 6 terminators worth of durability for 105pts. Not bad even if they never reach combat

I kind of agree. There is a lot more flexibility if you opt to deep strike them in, and 105 points in deep strike isn't alot. The issue though is they have to make that 9 inch charge. If they fail the charge, then they are likely not on an objective, and they did nothing in the turn they came down, and are now exposed to being shot at. And other than the emperor's children strategem, there is no other way to increase the odds of making the charge (other than rerolling the charge).

(I kinda of find it rather sad that CSM has to reach so deep into its toolbox as to actually consider a unit like mutilators seriously for 9th edition ... ). Mutilators were seen as a total failure of a unit for so long ...

like i said, the buffstacking card house our dex was designed to be has been falling with 9th in mind.

Mutilators or obliterators are just the most obvious exemple of this.

A unit of 3 obliterators are just so expensive... 315 points. Even if you use the shoot twice strategem, you need to kill 315 points on the turn you came down just to break even ...

These days, I feel that the most efficient point range is 100 to 150 points for a unit...

Eldenfirefly wrote:
A unit of 3 obliterators are just so expensive... 315 points. Even if you use the shoot twice strategem, you need to kill 315 points on the turn you came down just to break even ...

These days, I feel that the most efficient point range is 100 to 150 points for a unit...

honestly what kills oblits for me, personally, is the fact that they are now even more unreliable, and it makes me miss the day where oblits were swiss army knives instead of hulking buff babies in need of extra care.

What did work surprisingly well though, fo me atleast in my test match, was drop units of 1's.

BUT, there is no point where'd i not take 5 terminators with cb caxe and a reaper autocannon above a Obliterator now.

Yeah, there will be days when you roll Str 7, AP 1, dmg 1 all the time and basically your obliterators are firing autocannons...

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Yeah, there will be days when you roll Str 7, AP 1, dmg 1 all the time and basically your obliterators are firing autocannons...

i mean i like autocannons, but with damage 2
and i also feel that 3 ac's with deepstrike don't make for a particulary exiting 105 pts model.

Otoh, if you roll average s8 ap2 d2 x6 is quite decent deal for 105 pts. the max payoff has lowered though, as you said , too many eggs in one basket...

Been thinking about more and thinking about the battle reports I have watched. I may be under-rating the power of mobility. That's why I may have to re-consider flying demon princes. (Although I still consider them very expensive at 200 points).

The smaller board means that a good deep strike is harder to achieve. Everyone going for objectives means that both of you are spread over the entire board fighting over objectives, this actually leaves less room for deep strikers or units from reserve to come in.

However, high mobility units are not constrained by this. This includes bikes units, and flying units. The key thing is not so much flying just one unit to one spot. The key thing is that a highly mobile unit can allow you to shift your focus on power quickly from one objective to another, allowing you to overwhelm one objective after another.

Picture this simplistic example: 1000 points on both sides. assume 6 objectives. 1 in the rear, and 4 midboard. Now, assuming equal distribution. Both sides put 200 points in their rear (whether shooting etc). And they then push 800 points forward onto the midboard.

Now, a slow army puts 200 points on each midboard objective, and stays there. The other player, has 150 points of units contesting each mid board, and then he has a 200 point demon prince flying from one objective to the other.

Now, assuming the 150 points he has on each objective can at least hold their own and somehow stay alive for a while fighting against 200 points, this 200 point flying demon prince will tip the odds in your favour and win you that objective where ever he goes. Because where ever he is, that demon prince will result in you having 350 points fighting against 200 points on an objective. Assuming you can wipe of out the enemy on that objective with that power advantage. Next turn, you are free to fly your prince over to the next objective, and do the same thing.

What happens if the opponent has this big center blob reinforced with scary heroes? In 9th edition, you don't have to fight it at all. The smart thing would be to totally avoid it, or tie it up with a unit he has to spend time killing. If he stays on that one objective forever, that's fine. Because then he is placing too many points on one objective.

In the meantime, your flying demon prince will continue to flit to the other weaker objectives, taking them out with the help of your other units. So, thinking about it this way, the power of fly lies in its mobility and being able to tip the power balance in your favor on an objective.

So, why won't eldar rule 9th edition? Because while they have mobility, they may not have durability. The equation I mentioned above works only if your 150 points can keep the opponent 200 points occupied on the objective while your flying demon prince flies from one to another. Eldar are mobile, and they are shooty, but they are generally not durable, nor do they want to get stuck fighting in on an objective. So, they will flit around and shoot to opponents who are sitting ON the objectives. If they force themselves to charge in, then they are giving up their advantages.

This is why the intercessor example is such a powerful baseline to measure against. Consider a squad of 5 interccessors and a squad of 5 assault intecessors sitting on one objective. That's 20W to chew through, and they can shoot and fight well, all for 200 points?

Shooty units in a way also help to "overload" the power balance on an objective, because if they are sitting unopposed on one objective, they can hold that while still shooting at an enemy unit on another objective, hence helping to "overload" the power balance on that other objective. However, obscuring terrain means they can't shoot everywhere. So, that is something to consider.

When you consider it like this. Abaddon totally needs to be with a shooty unit. Because he weighs in at over 200 points. He has to not only dominate one objective, he needs to enable the other unit or units around him to lend their shooting power on other objectives. Otherwise, the opponent can just choose to avoid that objective Abby and friends are on, and focus on dominating the other objectives.

Yeah, so I am kind of rethinking the power of a flying demon prince now. I was thinking of them in a vacumn doing at it alone against another unit on an objective. Its very different when the idea is to use the flying demon prince as the hammer alongside another unit that is already on the objective to win you that objective. And once the battle is won there, the demon prince flies to the next objective and repeats the same thing again.


Quoted from Sun Tze, the art of war:

“If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected .”

Looks like we need to learn from Sun Tze for 9th edition 40k warhammer !

I will probably dig up my Rhinos with havoc launchers back out, because between the price drop for the havoc launcher as a cheap anti horde weapon and the durability offered by a rhino,to contest the midfield it might be wroth it afterall to spend 80 pts on it..

Has havoc got blast? Personally I'm stoked if transports are making a come back. Maybe I'll get myself a dreadclaw! Or a drill?

Eldenfirefly wrote:
When you consider it like this. Abaddon totally needs to be with a shooty unit. Because he weighs in at over 200 points. He has to not only dominate one objective, he needs to enable the other unit or units around him to lend their shooting power on other objectives. Otherwise, the opponent can just choose to avoid that objective Abby and friends are on, and focus on dominating the other objectives.

Yeah, so I am kind of rethinking the power of a flying demon prince now. I was thinking of them in a vacumn doing at it alone against another unit on an objective. Its very different when the idea is to use the flying demon prince as the hammer alongside another unit that is already on the objective to win you that objective. And once the battle is won there, the demon prince flies to the next objective and repeats the same thing again.

Starting to see how Black Legion will be the only top-tier competitive CSM army in 9th edition.

Going to explain why, but would like to start by getting this out of the way: static CSM gunlines won't work in 9th, for the following reasons.

- Too many ways to score points, you need to be on the move

- Changes to table size means a lot less time to hang back and shoot

- Changes to table size also means you won't get many games where you can shoot but your opponent can't

- Mid-range firepower is going to be a little more effective because of decreased board size. Bolters still don't matter, things like Chaincannons do.

Optimal play for Abaddon still means maximizing rerolls to hit on guns. Using him for cc is insignificant compared to boosting the accuracy of all nearby firepower by 50%. And he still has his auras.

So I've been thinking about how to take Abaddon out of the static gunline while retaining as much of that value as possible. And how to take advantage of those new mechanics along the way.

Optimal 9th edition Abaddon tactics are going to have him in a mobile firebase, surrounded by heavy weapons in units that can move and shoot without penalty. These lists are not going to try and win shootouts / melee engagements. They are going to selectively clear the way to deny victory points to your opponent, and this is going to reliably create insurmountable VP leads 3rd and 4th turn for Black Legion armies.

9th edition is a high scoring game. You really need to be picking up objectives each turn so you can score on them the next turn. Black Legion have a unique Stratagem called World Killers. For 3CP, you can deny your opponents objectives so long as you have a unit within 3" of the objective. And it works on every Black Legion unit on the board.

The potential for World Killers can't be overstated. Over a couple turns, you could swing 20+ VPs from your opponent to yourself. This makes it one of the most powerful Stratagem in 9th edition, and it plays perfectly with Abaddon's abilities. All you need to do is clear the way to a couple VPs held by your opponent, charge up with your fast attack, and make sure at least one model is within 3" at the end of the turn. Elite armies with low model count will have no defense, while Black Legion could be very selecting fighting hordes. The BL player could technically play to lose every model on the table (but one) and still prevail.

If you think about it, CSM are generally overcosted and outclassed coming into 9th edition. We don't want to fight head to head matchups, we want to play games that give us an advantage by negating the value of an opponent's force. This does exactly that. With the right lists, most opponents won't know what's happening until it's too late.

Here's what I think a Black Legion mobile firebase will look like:

- Abaddon will be surrounded by shooty units that can move and fire without penalty.

- He will still need another beatstick. Daemon Prince with Wings will be popular, Master of Execution will be poor man's option.

- Most times, he's going to have a Dark Apostle with him doing Illusory Supplication each turn.

- Other times, he's going to have a Master of Possessions with him doing Sacrifice or Cursed Earth.

- 3x Havocs will be an obvious choice for these lists.

- Contemptors may be a good choice for these lists.

- Autocannons, Missile Launchers and Chaincannons will be most popular big gun options.

- 10 man Cultist units will be popular, eating charges while avoiding the blast rule.

- Raptors, Mutilators, Spawn and other cheap, fast units will be doing the work on World Killers. It will be important to keep them cheap, they just need to stand somewhere for one turn. And it's important to have lots of them, you want some redundancy.

isn't that a bit too brittle?

Like , i know that illusiory prayer can give you really some durability, but havocs are still 1W unit.

I also remain unconvinced on the raptors, compared to bikers.

Bikes and Abaddon work so well. You can advance Ab and even if he rolls full advance they can keep up with him on standard move. Bolter discipline gives you 38 bolters hitting on 3s rerolling plus three specials. Drop vets and endless cacophony and you can reliably remove any troop unit.
I'm actually gonna try not taking any troops. I think Obsec is overrated. Focus on clearing your opponents troops and hit objectives with faster and tougher units, like you say techsoldaten, the BL strat can be used where needed early before you can destroy opponents Obsec.
I'd rather be taking more chosen or raptors or havocs that I feel are better value than CSM.

Not Online!!! wrote:
isn't that a bit too brittle?

Like , i know that illusiory prayer can give you really some durability, but havocs are still 1W unit.

I also remain unconvinced on the raptors, compared to bikers.

I didn't post a list, just elements of what a list might look like.

The strength is being able to deny opponents the opportunity to score for a couple turns. You just have to get units in place to deny them.

Bikes are fast but Raptors deep strike. Land them in a strategic position and contest the turn you plan to use World Killers. Put small units of them all over the board to screw with your opponent.

As far as the havocs go, the point is to have mobile guns that shoot without penalty. Make the most out of Abaddon's aura. Their job is not to win firefights, but to clear the way to contest objectives. Maybe Contemptors do it better, worth thinking about.

This is a situation where I'd really need to think about using Scorpius Whirlwinds. With rerolls, 3 of them could delete a 5-man Intercessor squad each turn. The drawback is they have to sit still to fire twice.

Erm, Techsoldaten, the world killers strategem just turns off opponent's obsec if you are within 3 inches of that objective. It sounds great but it seems hard to pull off.

1) The most obvious way to use this, is to have your own obsec within 3 inches of that objective. That way, because you turned off enemy obsec, your obsec will win and so you are considered to be owning that objective instead of your opponent. This means that your idea of using raptors and other fast units is less ideal. Because Yes, they can be in range to use this strategem, but units like raptors or spawn are not Obsec. So, even if you turn off opponent obsec, then its down to model count. Do you have more models than him within 3 inches of that objective ? If you are using fragile units like raptors, it may be that you have less models than him. World killers would only come into play if the opponent had less obsec troop models within 3 inches of the objectives than you have raptors.

2) Now if you pushed even one model of a CSM troop within 3 inches (be it a CSM or a cultist) of an objective, and then you activated world killers, then you would automatically win that objective in that turn. Now the key thing is that you activate it at the start of your opponent's round because that is when the victory points for objectives are tallied up. This means that you have to get a troop like a cultist or CSM within 3 inches of a contested objective and it must be there until the start of the opponent's turn.

One obvious problem with that is that engagement range is 1 inch. So if the opponent has surrounded the objective well enough, its going to be hard to get within 3 inches without ending up in engagement range, and having to fight the opponent. And we know how well cultists can fight. CSM can do the trick because power armor at least is tankier, but well, do you want to play with lots of squads of CSM ?

The other problem is delivery. A raptor or chaos spawn can move around fast enough and try and zip within 3 inches of an objective. But not a CSM troop. Not unless you are putting them in a transport like a Rhino. Once you start doing that, your whole army composition is going to change alot from what you are thinking about.

So yeah. World Killers is interesting, but it comes with some conditions you have to satisfy. So, lets say you are facing 10 intercessors clustered around one objective. World killers will turn their obsec off. But you still have the challenge of outnumbering those 10 intercessors, or getting your troop within 3 inch and surviving close combat with 10 intercessors.


Also, I am in agreement with Not Online!!! about Rhinos. They are worth a close look now. Its a cheap vehicle with 10W, T7 that can shoot quite well if you put havoc launchers and combi weapons on them. And Str 4 weapons will take a long time to chew through a Rhino. The thing is you can put a troop in a Rhino, and that will give them the mobility you are talking about. Also, it takes a fair bit of shooting to take out a Rhino with a unit in it. Because first you have to destroy the Rhino before you can start shooting the unit in it. A Rhino doesn't mind charging into close combat with a bunch of intercessors. Their str 4 attacks probably won't kill it, and it can still shoot during its turn. Someone can do the math on how long it takes for a 5 man squad of intercessors to chew through a Rhino in close combat. I reckon it will take a while. If you put a combi melta or combi plasma on them, combined with the existing combi bolter, and you fire everything (because you already have a -1 to hit, to might as well fire with both the bolter and the special weapon together). That's like 6 bolter shots and 2 plasma or 6 bolter shots and 1 melta each round. This is not counting that at 5 points, Havoc launchers are probably one of the cheapest horde blast weapons CSM has now, and the Rhino can have those as well. I mean, sure they will die to anti tank, but then the opponent has to choose between shooting my Rhinos vs shooting my heavy support. Its always good to force such decisions on an opponent.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
isn't that a bit too brittle?

Like , i know that illusiory prayer can give you really some durability, but havocs are still 1W unit.

I also remain unconvinced on the raptors, compared to bikers.

I didn't post a list, just elements of what a list might look like.

The strength is being able to deny opponents the opportunity to score for a couple turns. You just have to get units in place to deny them.

Bikes are fast but Raptors deep strike. Land them in a strategic position and contest the turn you plan to use World Killers. Put small units of them all over the board to screw with your opponent.

As far as the havocs go, the point is to have mobile guns that shoot without penalty. Make the most out of Abaddon's aura. Their job is not to win firefights, but to clear the way to contest objectives. Maybe Contemptors do it better, worth thinking about.

This is a situation where I'd really need to think about using Scorpius Whirlwinds. With rerolls, 3 of them could delete a 5-man Intercessor squad each turn. The drawback is they have to sit still to fire twice.

i know, but my personal experience with the ilusion prayer lists i tested was that the list tends to become extremely brittle but hard.

What do you mean by Brittle but hard ? Not Online!!! I understand brittle, because Havocs are still 1W models, but hard? Hard in what sense?

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Erm, Techsoldaten, the world killers strategem just turns off opponent's obsec if you are within 3 inches of that objective. It sounds great but it seems hard to pull off.

1) The most obvious way to use this, is to have your own obsec within 3 inches of that objective. That way, because you turned off enemy obsec, your obsec will win and so you are considered to be owning that objective instead of your opponent. This means that your idea of using raptors and other fast units is less ideal. Because Yes, they can be in range to use this strategem, but units like raptors or spawn are not Obsec. So, even if you turn off opponent obsec, then its down to model count. Do you have more models than him within 3 inches of that objective ? If you are using fragile units like raptors, it may be that you have less models than him. World killers would only come into play if the opponent had less obsec troop models within 3 inches of the objectives than you have raptors.

2) Now if you pushed even one model of a CSM troop within 3 inches (be it a CSM or a cultist) of an objective, and then you activated world killers, then you would automatically win that objective in that turn. Now the key thing is that you activate it at the start of your opponent's round because that is when the victory points for objectives are tallied up. This means that you have to get a troop like a cultist or CSM within 3 inches of a contested objective and it must be there until the start of the opponent's turn.

One obvious problem with that is that engagement range is 1 inch. So if the opponent has surrounded the objective well enough, its going to be hard to get within 3 inches without ending up in engagement range, and having to fight the opponent. And we know how well cultists can fight. CSM can do the trick because power armor at least is tankier, but well, do you want to play with lots of squads of CSM ?

The other problem is delivery. A raptor or chaos spawn can move around fast enough and try and zip within 3 inches of an objective. But not a CSM troop. Not unless you are putting them in a transport like a Rhino. Once you start doing that, your whole army composition is going to change alot from what you are thinking about.

So yeah. World Killers is interesting, but it comes with some conditions you have to satisfy. So, lets say you are facing 10 intercessors clustered around one objective. World killers will turn their obsec off. But you still have the challenge of outnumbering those 10 intercessors, or getting your troop within 3 inch and surviving close combat with 10 intercessors.

Just so everyone is clear, wording on World Killers:

"Use this Stratagem at the start of any battle ground. Until the end of that battle round, enemy units cannot use any abilities that allow them to control an objective marker it there are any BLACK LEGION units from your army within 3" of the centre of that objective marker, even if there are more enemy models within range of it."

So okay. Opponents can't use abilities like ObSec. You need 1 model in 3" of an objective at the start of your opponent's turn to deny. You need 1 model in 3" at the start of your turn to claim.

I have not seen the 9th edition rulebook yet. Is holding an objective an ability? Some units can't hold objectives, which made me think it's possible.

If it is, this is a lot more powerful than I've described.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
What do you mean by Brittle but hard ? Not Online!!! I understand brittle, because Havocs are still 1W models, but hard? Hard in what sense?

Something can be hard, e.g. really durable, but also really weak to some other things like force from an unprepared side to the hard object.

think of it like steel armor plates. the harder the more brittle it becomes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittleness

Something can be extremely hard (e.g. an invulnerable save) but at the same time extremely brittle ( limited ammount of 1W models.) in game terms.

So far, I always thought that world killers simply turned off obsec. I honestly am not sure. Don't have the 9th ed rulebook yet. But this kind of feels like you would get into a rules argument for sure. I thought basically being 3 inch from an objective would enable you to hold that objective if it was not contested. It didn't require any special "objective holding" ability.

Its like most units have the ability to charge and to fight in close combat, but we won't see "charge" and "fight in melee" listed as part of their abilities in their data sheet. Obsec is listed as an ability, so it seems to be what world killers is aimed at.

I like the look of Rhinos too. I plan on trying out some WE/CK lists utilising 3 Questoris-type knights and 3 rhinos with havoc and 2xcombibolters. From the batreps I've seen they will do good work, and they profit from the long shadow of chaos knights...