macluvin wrote: In your opinion, do you guys have a fun time just putting what you want on the board? I mean running hybrid helbrutes because you like a sub optimized walker with a fist and a heavy weapon more than a face punching fist and flail brute, or a pure Dakka brute. Or running csm squads because you simply want the troops to be such rather than meat shield cultists. Or putting possessed on the board because Daemonic ally possessed chaos space marines just sounds brutal and awesome, despite the contrary on the tabletop. Maybe you put Dino its in your list because a dark mechanum just sounds cool. Maybe there’s a land raider in your list because it is iconic and it looks awesome. Do any of you put things that gimp your list for the rule of cool and enjoy the games, or do you hate finding yourself either being crushed by a net list or some partially optimized list? Or even factions that don’t even have to try to be competitive?
Depends, i like to make wonky builds.
I do however run seperate lists and am in a position with the group and my collection that i can play with that we run both competitve and fluff / campaigns/ casuals.
However i also play R&H, and the balancing for that, well, if nu marines are there that passion project of mine doesn't need to show up.
As for CSM, the whole gotcha combo thingy, and the ammount of units that just don't perform ( your units like dino or LR atleast have some use, but explain to me the CSM predator, more expensive then Dino and less capability, and yet the dino is allready meh at best.) And the ammount of synergy combination required is insanely annoying especially for less suported sub archetypes.
I like running what I like vs what's good. My black legion force runs a blob of 20 chaos marines with bolters and 2 10 man squads with plasma guns. It would make sense to put the plasma in the 20 man group to make it safer but i prefer the way this way looks. Add Abaddon in for moral and rerolls, and dark apostle and term sorcerer, and that's may base army. 40 marines and 3 chrs.
CSM is my army that i'm not going for the power picks. I run whichever models i like.
I play night lords and i've got a battalion of smash lord + jumpack sorcerer + reaper chaincannon MSU marines.
I add to this a dual power scourge chaos dread (modeled with the blood angels claws).
I've got a vindicator in there because i like the model so much.
I like having a drill + plague marines.
And i pad it out with slaanesh demons
i still manage to win games at my local club (back when these were a thing) but i wouldnt run that list at a tournament
Word Bearers Dark Apostle with Mark of Khorne, Exalted Posession and Cursed Crozius as a blender, screened by a cultist blob.
MoP and Greater Possessed nearby to buff the DA and other DAEMON units.
A Venomcrawler tagging along to benefit from the daemon buffs and Bloodletters to summon in once close enough.
MSU Marines to fill troop slots and Havocs for fire support.
macluvin wrote: I was talking about just putting stuff in the list because you like it that way over the rules favoring it with advantages. Or because it fits your vision of your army better than a more capable or efficient unit. The only unit that is so crappy I wouldn’t is possessed but if the models were Cooler like the greater possessed... Or maybe if I just looked at someone’s spare spawn bits..
If there's actual synergy to make it work, sure, and that's why Alpha Legion are popular for Possessed and not Word Bearers for example.
BertBert wrote: Do you think something like this is workable?
Word Bearers Dark Apostle with Mark of Khorne, Exalted Posession and Cursed Crozius as a blender, screened by a cultist blob.
MoP and Greater Possessed nearby to buff the DA and other DAEMON units.
A Venomcrawler tagging along to benefit from the daemon buffs and Bloodletters to summon in once close enough.
MSU Marines to fill troop slots and Havocs for fire support.
probably to squishy and slow.
As in the blender DA.
if you'd picked a Lord with jumppack then i could see it occaisionally work, but DA's are rather slow and you lack the tools to for the walk up style of AL with WB.
In theory it is highly synergetic and if you face an melee army that wants to close the gap to you then yes it can work but overall i'd say it's to slow.
Btw, if a blender lord is not to your liking remember a DP is a daemon, and a caster, which would servce you better overall for such a combination attempt , not to mention he has the option for wings.
BertBert wrote: Do you think something like this is workable?
Word Bearers Dark Apostle with Mark of Khorne, Exalted Posession and Cursed Crozius as a blender, screened by a cultist blob.
MoP and Greater Possessed nearby to buff the DA and other DAEMON units.
A Venomcrawler tagging along to benefit from the daemon buffs and Bloodletters to summon in once close enough.
MSU Marines to fill troop slots and Havocs for fire support.
probably to squishy and slow.
As in the blender DA.
if you'd picked a Lord with jumppack then i could see it occaisionally work, but DA's are rather slow and you lack the tools to for the walk up style of AL with WB.
In theory it is highly synergetic and if you face an melee army that wants to close the gap to you then yes it can work but overall i'd say it's to slow.
Btw, if a blender lord is not to your liking remember a DP is a daemon, and a caster, which would servce you better overall for such a combination attempt , not to mention he has the option for wings.
Thanks for the reply!
Yeah, I figured that the footslogging part would be an issue and hoped that I could somewhat compensate for this with Warptime or maybe a Rhino to ferry him and his retinue around. I also figured that a solid blob of cultists or two would screen him long enough to get him into cc eventually. I was planning on including some faster elements like summoned Bloodcrushers/Screamers to close the gap and buy some time. Or maybe some vanilla Terminators to deepsstrike into hard to reach places, contest objectives and pummel stray squads while the main line advances.
A DP is certainly a nice alternative, but the DA is pretty much my centerpiece model that sparked the whole idea in the first place, so I'm committed to making him work as my Warlord.
BertBert wrote: Do you think something like this is workable?
Word Bearers Dark Apostle with Mark of Khorne, Exalted Posession and Cursed Crozius as a blender, screened by a cultist blob.
MoP and Greater Possessed nearby to buff the DA and other DAEMON units.
A Venomcrawler tagging along to benefit from the daemon buffs and Bloodletters to summon in once close enough.
MSU Marines to fill troop slots and Havocs for fire support.
probably to squishy and slow.
As in the blender DA.
if you'd picked a Lord with jumppack then i could see it occaisionally work, but DA's are rather slow and you lack the tools to for the walk up style of AL with WB.
In theory it is highly synergetic and if you face an melee army that wants to close the gap to you then yes it can work but overall i'd say it's to slow.
Btw, if a blender lord is not to your liking remember a DP is a daemon, and a caster, which would servce you better overall for such a combination attempt , not to mention he has the option for wings.
Thanks for the reply!
Yeah, I figured that the footslogging part would be an issue and hoped that I could somewhat compensate for this with Warptime or maybe a Rhino to ferry him and his retinue around. I also figured that a solid blob of cultists or two would screen him long enough to get him into cc eventually. I was planning on including some faster elements like summoned Bloodcrushers/Screamers to close the gap and buy some time. Or maybe some vanilla Terminators to deepsstrike into hard to reach places, contest objectives and pummel stray squads while the main line advances.
A DP is certainly a nice alternative, but the DA is pretty much my centerpiece model that sparked the whole idea in the first place, so I'm committed to making him work as my Warlord.
Hrm, have you considered frothing Horde of doom style for the army.
Between the vigilus detachment and Double prayer shenanigans you could Run an army that is in essence a doom cult.
Hordes of cultists, him, some other daemon models sprinkled in and whilest also slow probably more meat to take a pounding.
Add some minor boni to cultists and a stratagem to improve a roll by 1 for prayers if cultists are around. If i recall correctly.
Of course that would be a completely diffrent Style to your first Suggestion/question and i have no idea what your collection dies or does not entail.
Oh, Cult of Doom, is it?
I've checked that one out, but I don't find the bonuses to be particularly appealing. With disciples around, prayers will already go off 5/6 times and there are a bunch of Stratagems I'd probably rather spend that 1 CP on.
Maybe I'm missing something here, I'm not too deep into the whole vigilus part. Getting back into the game after quite some time, It's difficult enough to make sense of all the synergies concerning legions, stratagems, chaos marks, warlord traits, items and summoning
Reivax26 wrote: Anyone ever try running a spearhead of 3 Venomcrawlers and a Khorne Daemon Prince that run up a flank together?
Not too expensive points wise but not easy to ignore.
i fail to see the use of a khorne DP over a Lord discordant, except the cover provided to the DP.
That said it's a nasty melee spearhead, however Venomcrawlers aren't what i'd describe as "durable".
Not Online!!! wrote: Any idea of the expected level you want to play on?
or is theme more important to you?
Theme mostly, but I want to try and get the most out of it. Our community is low to moderately competitive, so you can get away with not bringing a netlist all the time.
Not Online!!! wrote: Any idea of the expected level you want to play on?
or is theme more important to you?
Theme mostly, but I want to try and get the most out of it. Our community is low to moderately competitive, so you can get away with not bringing a netlist all the time.
The general idea was that the Venomcrawlers would provide cover for the Daemon Prince to get in combat. Give him the Talisman of Burning Blood and depending on Warptime he could have a 25 to 30 inch move after he runs. Then he charges in.
The Venomcrawlers would either smash in the 2nd turn or break off towards other units like maybe something holding a backfield objective.
I am new to Chaos but it seemed like a viable idea for Alpha Legion. Especially if you take Master of Diversion and trick your opponent into putting a good portion of their anti tank on one side of the board only to redeploy on the other side.
Or the crawlers would be killed, explode, and hurt your demon prince. I had two crawlers shot from the table, both blew up, inflicting enough mortal wounds to kill two support characters, a chaos lord and a sorcerer.
Add some minor boni to cultists and a stratagem to improve a roll by 1 for prayers if cultists are around. If i recall correctly.
Of course that would be a completely diffrent Style to your first Suggestion/question and i have no idea what your collection dies or does not entail.
Oh, Cult of Doom, is it?
I've checked that one out, but I don't find the bonuses to be particularly appealing. With disciples around, prayers will already go off 5/6 times and there are a bunch of Stratagems I'd probably rather spend that 1 CP on.
Maybe I'm missing something here, I'm not too deep into the whole vigilus part. Getting back into the game after quite some time, It's difficult enough to make sense of all the synergies concerning legions, stratagems, chaos marks, warlord traits, items and summoning
The ability itself says you get the benefit if you are in range of any models that are projecting it. So 1 or 10 Greater Possessed wouldn't make a difference to any one unit nearby.
Is the FW Blood Slaughterer any good? Looking at its stats, it seems solid. I'm guessing that's it's best to replace the harpoon with anther blade to increase the melee damage output, but unlike 'ranged' weapons like the Maulerfiend's pistol, it's actually got an ok firing distance and gives the unit the charge bonus for any enemies hit, so I'm not sure on that point.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Is the FW Blood Slaughterer any good? Looking at its stats, it seems solid. I'm guessing that's it's best to replace the harpoon with anther blade to increase the melee damage output, but unlike 'ranged' weapons like the Maulerfiend's pistol, it's actually got an ok firing distance and gives the unit the charge bonus for any enemies hit, so I'm not sure on that point.
Ehh, M 10 and allways advance 6" aswell as a good melee profile.
Otoh 165 pts. for a rather flimsy model...
I guess you can play decently around them and they are a daemonengine wich makes them nice with Discordant and jumppack sorcerer for wartptime and advance + charge from the special detachment.
But as it stands like most melee daemonengines it suffers from beeing melee and therefore often dead before it reaches the enemy and aswell from beeing overpriced .
I guess it's the price that makes it meh but since it is a daemon you can play around stacking synergy. Just like possessed.
Does anyone use the Noctolith Crown? I got one as part of an army I bought off a friend of mine and I was thinking that it might be useful for helping to hold objectives in your own deployment zone or just for helping with psychic stuff.
Reivax26 wrote: Does anyone use the Noctolith Crown? I got one as part of an army I bought off a friend of mine and I was thinking that it might be useful for helping to hold objectives in your own deployment zone or just for helping with psychic stuff.
2 issues with it.
-1 Denial of psy. you see the MoP, he does the same but more.
-2 5++ bubble, granted it grows but the units profiting the most of it are cultists, which also profit infinitely more from a Dark apostle. (which also has a 5++ bubble and a morale improvement on top of beeing a potential warlord with cult leader)
And at 80 pts it's also not as cheap and it is targetable and therefore easily destroyable.
Not to say you can't play around it, did some testing a while back and gave out the impression in this thread aswell, you can play around 2 for maximum efficency and cover alot of board with the effect, aswell as having alot of fodder that now suddendly is actually pretty durable in the form of cultists. Of course you can also use any other non Invul infantry on top of that and attempt to use the scoureged and the tzeentch spell to improve Invuls further to get 4++ csm mainline models and take advantage from the scourged trait by further hardening your gunline with msu and other options. Alternative is you use AL for the -1 to hit and the acces to more cultists interaction which overall are great at having stacked buffs on them, especially in regards to durability.
But that doesn't change the fact that you need to play specificaly around it.
I was thinking of it as something to help you hold objectives on your side of the board. Buffing units while throwing off the Psyker debuff on opponents seemed really useful for 80 points.
I would rather my Master of Possession be focused on buffing other stuff or trying to hurt my opponent than buffing Cultists or Chaos Marines holding a backfield objective.
The Crown works best with castle or gun line builds. But so far, other armies do such builds better. Not to say we can't try, but I think our best such builds would likely not match others.
Its fine for non-competitive play though. Provided your opponent uses fluffy lists rather than competition lists.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Is the FW Blood Slaughterer any good? Looking at its stats, it seems solid. I'm guessing that's it's best to replace the harpoon with anther blade to increase the melee damage output, but unlike 'ranged' weapons like the Maulerfiend's pistol, it's actually got an ok firing distance and gives the unit the charge bonus for any enemies hit, so I'm not sure on that point.
Ehh, M 10 and allways advance 6" aswell as a good melee profile.
Otoh 165 pts. for a rather flimsy model...
I guess you can play decently around them and they are a daemonengine wich makes them nice with Discordant and jumppack sorcerer for wartptime and advance + charge from the special detachment.
But as it stands like most melee daemonengines it suffers from beeing melee and therefore often dead before it reaches the enemy and aswell from beeing overpriced .
I guess it's the price that makes it meh but since it is a daemon you can play around stacking synergy. Just like possessed.
I would definitely pair it with a disco lord, MoP and sorcerer (preferably a Terminator one since it can deep strike to where it needs to be). I've actually been leaning toward having one with a harpoon. Yes, that cuts back on the melee potential, but it's still a nasty weapon and a great boon to any charge that I make.
On a slightly different topic, I wish the Soulforged Pack had had some stuff to improve the ranged weapons of daemon engines, as both forgefiends and venomcrawlers could become much more potent.
honestly, preferably the aura on the lord discordant should also be applicable to warpsmiths, that would solve alot of issues. And make the warpsmith somthing that people want to field for more then just cheap fodder CP.
Reivax26 wrote: In the right build Warpsmith could be good. It's just that a lot of people don't play Mechanized gunlines.
They don't do well there either. The problem is how low a D3 heal is. If an opponent wants a model dead, you won't get to heal it. If it's near death, the two wounds you'll likely heal will be pelted by small arms the next turn. The only real reason healing was mildly working with Iron Hands because they stacked it absurdly to make it even worth looking at, and GW promptly nerfed that for...reasons.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Is the FW Blood Slaughterer any good? Looking at its stats, it seems solid. I'm guessing that's it's best to replace the harpoon with anther blade to increase the melee damage output, but unlike 'ranged' weapons like the Maulerfiend's pistol, it's actually got an ok firing distance and gives the unit the charge bonus for any enemies hit, so I'm not sure on that point.
Since CA2019 I feel maulerfiends are better value when paired with a Discordant.
I've used Bloodslaughterers. They're real killy, do as advertised, but can be hard to maneuver and vulnerable for the points.
Would it be feasible to build a force based on daemon Engines and summoned daemons of various kinds, buffed by MoPs and Lord Discordants?
Malefic Discipline and Lord Discordant powers specify <Legion> daemons and <Legion> daemon engines respectively, so I suppose allied Bload Drones and Plagueburst Crawlers don't benefit from either.
Having said that, do summoned daemons benefit from Melefic Discipline powers at all? They don't have the <Legion> keyword, do they?
I don't think that they benefit from it. Which is a shame but I kinda understand why. With all the keyword shenanigans we could make some seriously interesting lists.
Also does anyone think it's viable to play Alpha Legion without Disco Lords? I don't have any yet and I am trying to brainstorm ideas on other viable options for them.
I realize how good they are but I don't like sinking all those points into HQs when so many of the scenarios and ITC missions revolve around Troops.
Alpha legion is HQ centric, like all CSM forces, but can do anything and any style due to a combination of the best reacionary and actionary option in stratagem, traits and mark restricitons.
So yes it is viable to run AL without lord discordants, if any legion can do it really well then they can do it.
Also the Lord discordant is less of an HQ and more of a schizophrenic failure of a Heavy support slot.
Warpsmiths can be good with the right setup. I used one with a master of possession, a lord of skulls, and 2 defilers as the main backbone of my line a few months ago. In 1 game my opponent got 1st turn and dropped my lord of skulls down to 2 wounds. My turn? Heals 1 on its own, warpsmith healed d3 (think I rolled a 2), then master cast sacrifice and healed it another 3. Putting it back up to 8 wounds allowed him to really hit that sweet middle bracket. Add warp time in after the heals to get maximum range, and then proceed to slaughter primaris.
My point is if your running a warpsmith a master of possession for the sacrifice spell is almost a nessesary choice to make it worth while. Bonus points if you make the Smith mark of nurgle and heal the wounds he losses with grandfathers blessings.
Azuza001 wrote: Warpsmiths can be good with the right setup. I used one with a master of possession, a lord of skulls, and 2 defilers as the main backbone of my line a few months ago. In 1 game my opponent got 1st turn and dropped my lord of skulls down to 2 wounds. My turn? Heals 1 on its own, warpsmith healed d3 (think I rolled a 2), then master cast sacrifice and healed it another 3. Putting it back up to 8 wounds allowed him to really hit that sweet middle bracket. Add warp time in after the heals to get maximum range, and then proceed to slaughter primaris.
My point is if your running a warpsmith a master of possession for the sacrifice spell is almost a nessesary choice to make it worth while. Bonus points if you make the Smith mark of nurgle and heal the wounds he losses with grandfathers blessings.
ehh, Klos, is a superheavy and not a mechanized unit imo.
also there's no way you could've not cut the defielers and got another klos.
and that shows the issue, everything medium not a daemonengine doesn't even get considered anymore and the lack of traits dosen't help in that regard. And most daemonengines are like all legion daemons just buff recievers with the exception that infantry is better which makes the possessed bomb more effective.
p5freak wrote: Warpsmith can repair <LEGION> VEHICLE. KLOS is a vehicle, if its from the same LEGION the warpsmith can repair it.
which was not my statement, at all.
My point was that the medium sized vehicles ,everything between and including rhino and landraider size , get's basically easily disregarded for good reasons.
Had my first game as a Chaos player today. Managed to squeeze out a win against a Death Guard list with Mortarion and Typhus. Those Poxwalkers are annoying to get rid of.
I used the models that I have so far which is far from the meta build.
Terminator Lord with Combi Plasma, Power Sword and Mark of Khorne.
Master of Possession with Cursed Earth and Infernal Power.
Sorcerer with Warptime and Presience.
Greater Possessed
5 Terminators. 3 combi meltas, 1 Reaper Autocannon. 4 of them had Power axes
5 Chosen. 3 with PP and Chainaxe, 1.Plasmagun, and one with BP and Chainsword
10 Chaos Marines. 2 Autocannons, 7 Bolters. Champ with PF 10 Chaos Marines 2 Plasmaguns, 7 BP and Chainsword, Champ with PF 11 Cultists
3 Oblits Mark of Slaanesh
2 Oblits Mark of Slaanesh
3 Venomcrawlers
3 Rhinos with Combi Bolters
I used the Rhinos to try and corral the Poxwalkers while my Obliterators and Autocannon Chaos squad melted Mortarion. I used the Master of Diversion trait and put all my big guns on Mortarions side with the Lord and both the Sorcerer and Master of Possession behind the 5 Oblits. He died on Turn 2. Dealt more damage when he popped than he did during the game.
I was quite nervous going into the game as it was my first game with them and I had never beaten that guy with my Dark Angels. So now I'm 1-4 lol
Dude I admire the fact that you have a squad of marines with ccw and bp. And a pf... rule of cool right there. Bolters are better about 99% of the time in a csm squad because marines are crap in close combat. Especially with plasmaguns. Your chosen squad is interesting as well. I admire the rule of cool that you use in those squads though.
macluvin wrote: Dude I admire the fact that you have a squad of marines with ccw and bp. And a pf... rule of cool right there. Bolters are better about 99% of the time in a csm squad because marines are crap in close combat. Especially with plasmaguns. Your chosen squad is interesting as well. I admire the rule of cool that you use in those squads though.
ccwcsm aren't half bad with the right support.
Tend to run in my hordes a squad which also somtimes poses as Khorne berzerkers, it's a good tool to have to tie up something occaisonally aswell.
Overall though, i feel like the enemy player got leftfooted due to the master of diversion and the promtly met the wrong end of dakka.
macluvin wrote: Dude I admire the fact that you have a squad of marines with ccw and bp. And a pf... rule of cool right there. Bolters are better about 99% of the time in a csm squad because marines are crap in close combat. Especially with plasmaguns. Your chosen squad is interesting as well. I admire the rule of cool that you use in those squads though.
ccwcsm aren't half bad with the right support.
Tend to run in my hordes a squad which also somtimes poses as Khorne berzerkers, it's a good tool to have to tie up something occaisonally aswell.
Overall though, i feel like the enemy player got leftfooted due to the master of diversion and the promtly met the wrong end of dakka.
You get more flexibility from bolters though. Rapid fire Bolters at what you are about to charge gives you 2 attacks vs the one attack from the ccw and one attack from the bolt pistol. I have ccw marines as well and I will use them as well with a flamer because... awesome! But you do end up with exactly the same number of attacks on the charge (ccw gives you one, plus bolt pistol before you charge, vs rapid fire for 2 shots from the Bolter) as without and you lose the ability to shoot stuff 24 inches away for that ccw. I guess you do have to worry about shooting the gap bigger making you have to roll higher for the charge... it’s not like you can’t shoot a different target to mitigate that though.Counts as them as berserkers would be an awesome use of them...
considering that, i'd have gone with the cheaper CB spam squad.
there's something to be said about a -1 to hit 4shot / model squad at 16 pts.
I'd personally have formed a seperate detachment with the CSM off RC to get access to no shortage of corsairs and khorne icon to bring them back and be more mobile overall with the cqc squad.
The autocannon squd i'd split up into 2 5 man ones, simply for beeing more durable.
but that is just nitpicky and optimisaiton on a list level.
Yeah I'd trade them out for more terminators but drop the combi meltas for combi plasma. Or maybe free up some points somewhere else and get another obliterator.
The good news is that they are the cheapest MEQ there is! Bad news is they lost melta bombs and marks of chaos don’t do anything really cool. Worse is that everything in the Dex barring dinobots is back to being exclusively loyalist equivalent minus one. Imagine how cool chosen could be if you could purchase a special rule for them like in the 3.5 dex. It would really cushion the fact that loyalists have access to 10 different types of veteran.
considering that, i'd have gone with the cheaper CB spam squad.
there's something to be said about a -1 to hit 4shot / model squad at 16 pts.
I'd personally have formed a seperate detachment with the CSM off RC to get access to no shortage of corsairs and khorne icon to bring them back and be more mobile overall with the cqc squad.
The autocannon squd i'd split up into 2 5 man ones, simply for beeing more durable.
but that is just nitpicky and optimisaiton on a list level.
It's actually pretty dead weight. The amount of effort that would need to be put into them for any damage output is silly. Also I do agree with you. I've been rocking 5 Combi-Bolters + Chaincannon since it became a thing, and it's cheap for what you get. Plus the bodies guarding the Chaincannon are only 16 points if they need to die.
I was using the models that I have at my disposal currently so apologies if my list shocked or offended anyone in its sadness models wise.
That close combat squad actually helped drop a bloat drone and about half of a big Poxwalkers squad before they finally died.
I call that a win. The Chosen squad were joined by the Greater Possessed and that combo actually worked out rather well. All the plasma was able to finish off Mortarion and later on tied up Typhus and another enemy character.
Overall I was shocked at how well the army performed. The bad part is that I think I could have beaten him quite a bit worse than I did but I am still getting used to the army.
Reivax26 wrote: I was using the models that I have at my disposal currently so apologies if my list shocked or offended anyone in its sadness models wise.
That close combat squad actually helped drop a bloat drone and about half of a big Poxwalkers squad before they finally died.
I call that a win. The Chosen squad were joined by the Greater Possessed and that combo actually worked out rather well. All the plasma was able to finish off Mortarion and later on tied up Typhus and another enemy character.
Overall I was shocked at how well the army performed. The bad part is that I think I could have beaten him quite a bit worse than I did but I am still getting used to the army.
Disregard the haters. I sincerely respect your list because it looks like what I think people should be bringing to the table on a casual night. At least it’s not some darn netlist built around disco lord and dinobots... you keep doing what you are doing. I am happy the chosen squad worked out for you! Hopefully it does so again in the future. You will have games where they won’t though and be prepared for that.
My main army is Dark Angels. I brought them to an ITC tournament last October where they got tabled by an Ad Mech/Knights list with 4 Knights that had over 24 wounds.
I haven't kept tabs on CSM since Vigilus 1 was announced. Do non-soup CSM have any options for forming a good gunline? I'm playing a doubles with a Daemons player who's going all melee, so chaff-clearing and potentially tank-busting falls to me. Are Iron Warriors any good now, or is there a better legion to go with for a shooting-focused army?
BlaxicanX wrote: I haven't kept tabs on CSM since Vigilus 1 was announced. Do non-soup CSM have any options for forming a good gunline? I'm playing a doubles with a Daemons player who's going all melee, so chaff-clearing and potentially tank-busting falls to me. Are Iron Warriors any good now, or is there a better legion to go with for a shooting-focused army?
AL and IW are probably the best shooty CSM legions for killing enemy vehicles. IW have more offensive powers, while AL is more on the defensive side with their -1 to hit at 12+".
Yeah, I like the look of nu-Iron Warriors. EC seem kinda nice too with their shoot-twice strategem.
What I'm not sure about though is what units to actually take as a firebase. We don't seem to really have any artillery or tanks that's worth a damn, and the demon engines all hit on 4's. Contemptors and Deredeos seem pretty nice though.
Sure, but EC is how you get noise Marines as troops. I'm starting off at 1,000 points so there might be some value in not having to deal with a true tax.
BlaxicanX wrote: Sure, but EC is how you get noise Marines as troops. I'm starting off at 1,000 points so there might be some value in not having to deal with a true tax.
You don't wanna use that Strat on Noise Marines though unless you're at some last resort kinda situation.
BlaxicanX wrote: Yeah, I like the look of nu-Iron Warriors. EC seem kinda nice too with their shoot-twice strategem.
Any infantry, from any legion, with mark of slaanesh gets to shoot twice with endless cacophony.
BlaxicanX wrote: What I'm not sure about though is what units to actually take as a firebase. We don't seem to really have any artillery or tanks that's worth a damn, and the demon engines all hit on 4's. Contemptors and Deredeos seem pretty nice though.
Contemptors, deredeos, levi dread are the best shooty vehicles. Dont bother with tanks. For infantry use oblits, combiplasma termis, havocs.
Hey I keep toying with adding demons to both my death guard army and my world eaters. I'll probably do it regardless just for modelling reasons but I am struggling to see what they offer as an addition to the army.
I'm not a super competitive player but I don't like to take stuff that's dead weight. I also like to find some nice synergy in my choices.
So what do nurgle daemons bring to death guard? They already have some pretty resilient infantry. They struggle with long range dakka and they're slow. None of those things seem to be mitigated by nurgle daemons except perhaps dropping nurglings on objectives for board control.
And what does khorne bring to world eaters? They already have blender infantry, the bloodletter bomb is nice but it's not necessarily a huge upgrade from what WE can do deep striking ten red butcher terminators.
So what am I missing and what synergies can I achieve? I normally play 1750 or 2000 points. Should I be trying to get a battalion of each in a list?
EC does get you access to sonic dreadnought... you can put two blastmasters that you can double tap at the closest unit per the helbrute stratagem. So EC for a gunline that can punch back isn’t terrible considering the sonic dreads. Also I think it’s still technically up for debate as to whether The strat applies to keyword “helbrute” or model name helbrute... but the sonic dread DOES have the keyword.
BlaxicanX wrote: I haven't kept tabs on CSM since Vigilus 1 was announced. Do non-soup CSM have any options for forming a good gunline? I'm playing a doubles with a Daemons player who's going all melee, so chaff-clearing and potentially tank-busting falls to me. Are Iron Warriors any good now, or is there a better legion to go with for a shooting-focused army?
Black Legion gunlines. Abaddon, lascannon Havocs, Contemptors with Lascannons, 10x CSM squads with 2 lascannons, and toss in some Scorpius Whirlwinds. Put everyone inside Abaddon's reroll bubble and you will clean your opponents off the board.
If you're playing doubles with an all-melee Daemon's army, that's enough to make people hate you.
I am thinking about adding to my Alpha Legion. My choices are to:
1. Buy a Daemon Prince and a Lord Discordant. I don't have any of either.
2. Buy a Chaos Knight. The idea being that if I set him up shooty I can use the Alpha Legion strat to try to make the tanks he destroys almost always explode. Plus he's a hell of a distraction.
Reivax26 wrote: I am thinking about adding to my Alpha Legion. My choices are to:
1. Buy a Daemon Prince and a Lord Discordant. I don't have any of either.
2. Buy a Chaos Knight. The idea being that if I set him up shooty I can use the Alpha Legion strat to try to make the tanks he destroys almost always explode. Plus he's a hell of a distraction.
Thoughts?
1. Do you have any daemon engines to buff with the disco lord ? Hint : Lord of skulls or kytan ravager are daemon engines, and they are similar to a chaos knight.
2. Why not a lord of skulls, of kytan ravager ? They have the legion keyword, and can be buffed by stratagems, or psychic powers. For example you can play daemonforge on them, rerolling all failed hit and wound rolls. You can prescience them, for +1 to hit. You can warptime them.
If your lord of skulls or kytan ravager is in a soulforged pack they can use the stratagem infernal engines to be able to charge after advancing. Combine that with warptime and you have an almost guaranteed T1 charge. A disco lord would buff them with +1 to hit, and with prescience they would get +2 to hit.
Abaddon303 wrote: Hey I keep toying with adding demons to both my death guard army and my world eaters. I'll probably do it regardless just for modelling reasons but I am struggling to see what they offer as an addition to the army.
I'm not a super competitive player but I don't like to take stuff that's dead weight. I also like to find some nice synergy in my choices.
So what do nurgle daemons bring to death guard? They already have some pretty resilient infantry. They struggle with long range dakka and they're slow. None of those things seem to be mitigated by nurgle daemons except perhaps dropping nurglings on objectives for board control.
And what does khorne bring to world eaters? They already have blender infantry, the bloodletter bomb is nice but it's not necessarily a huge upgrade from what WE can do deep striking ten red butcher terminators.
So what am I missing and what synergies can I achieve? I normally play 1750 or 2000 points. Should I be trying to get a battalion of each in a list?
Some Khorne Warptalons (because Daemon keyword) with a character from a Khorne Daemon detachment is decent tech to shut down overwatch, and doesn't break the bank for general purpose. Also, with a Chaos Daemon detachment you got access to some extra stratagems, so you can deepstrike them in with your termies, and you can punish enemy psykers when they peril.
If you take Bloodletters with banner and instrument and spend some CP, you can charge them in for rerollable 3d6+1", and follow up with rerollable 2d6+2" charges from other units in that detachment. That is definitely an upgrade in reliability of getting into melee.
With Nurgle the ability to drop in from warp is indeed a remedy for the Death Guards slowness. The ability to tie up shooty gunline units while your army waltzes forward is almost more important than just grabbing objectives.
I struggle to see how 9th edition will impact us. Other than make soup chaos armies harder to play. Like the blast weapons inflicting max hits on horde armies. We hardly have any good blast type weapons in the first place. Frag missile launcher? the battle cannon on a defiler ? You need to hit first even if you get 6 shots firing that at a horde... And do we want to even fire a demolisher cannon on a horde to begin with?
A lot of our other blast weapons are d3 hits. Making a d3 hits into 3 hits is ok, but its not gonna change that much...
Maybe terrain is gonna be a big thing.. Except it just makes things even harder for chaos. Unless you go forgeworld, existing GW chaos has no weapons that can shoot out of line of sight. Imperium has tons. Everything from thunderfire cannons to basilisks. CSM has a fat zero.
So yeah, I don't know what kind of new rules they want to make to terrain, but all I know is that Imperium has guns that don't even need line of sight. Those basically don't care what terrain you have. While CSM has zero of those... unless you go into forgeworld.
And tanks being able to shoot in combat. Slight benefit to CSM, but honestly, most of our daemon engines and vehicles can fight anyway. We don't mind getting locked in combat. We mulch through anything we do fight mostly. This only benefits AM tanks. We don't have anything like that unless you want to consider stuff like deathguard PBCs.
Now if they brought back the rule that vehicles can muscle their way through blocking infantry that has to get out of their way, that would be cool. I always felt it was dumb that one solitary infantry model can block and stop a big honking lord of skull in its tracks by standing in front of it... Like wooo, I need to come to a complete stop just cos of this puny guy who doesn't even reach higher than my wheel tracks instead of just grinding him under my wheels ...
Maybe everyone getting same CP will benefit us more on a relative basis... simply cos it will make the game fairer ? Shrugs. That just evens everyone out. Hardly call that benefit to us unless we admit we were at a disadvantage on this all along...
Maybe everyone getting same CP will benefit us more on a relative basis... simply cos it will make the game fairer ? Shrugs. That just evens everyone out. Hardly call that benefit to us unless we admit we were at a disadvantage on this all along...
No, csm were by far the army that could generate the most CP/ Pts, but was held back by the fact that you'd not want to use that ability because you needed the detachment slots overall more then the CP.
Further, CSM as it stands now, if that is implemented and to stingy overall will just stop functioning.
Consider the mainline buff moves for the "core damage dealers" for CSM.
Cacophony, 2 cp, Votwl, 1 CP, conceal, 2 CP, We are alpharius, 1CP.
That is in total just 6 CP used pregame, that's basically a whole battalion allready, if they intend to run it like KT then you can atmost assume to get 2 cp / round. , By turn 3 when you can use them your whole army has fallen into shambles.
And this also excludes any and all potential reactionary stratagem use, like scrambled coordinates, or ambush, etc.
Also the forgeworld thing is, so long the books aren't updated 95% of the options they offer are worse by a long shot, not to mention that the only real planes chaos has access to are in that category aswell.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I struggle to see how 9th edition will impact us. Other than make soup chaos armies harder to play. Like the blast weapons inflicting max hits on horde armies. We hardly have any good blast type weapons in the first place. Frag missile launcher? the battle cannon on a defiler ? You need to hit first even if you get 6 shots firing that at a horde... And do we want to even fire a demolisher cannon on a horde to begin with?
A few things from the announcement made me think 9th edition will be a wash for CSMs.
1) Better terrain rules should favor elite cc units.
2) However, tanks can now shoot them in combat.
3) And flyers can do strafing runs.
4) And hordes will be more vulnerable.
I have something called the Berzerker Rule, which states the quality of a new edition (or mid-edition iteration, like a FAQ) can be summarized by how suitable the rules are for Khorne Berzerkers. They exemplify the benefits and drawbacks of high-impact melee CSM units better than most others. Passing this test means you can run fluffy armies that won't be shot off the table, failing it means there will be a low correlation between fluff and competitiveness.
5th edition was great. Berzerker Rush was a thing, you could use cult troops to build an elite army. Being able to advance in place of shooting was good for them.
6th edition was terrible. It invalidated most Berzerker specific tactics. 7th, by extension, was just more of the same.
8th started off great. For almost a year, you could use a Kharbydis Assault Claw to drop 4x5 Berzerkers on your opponent at 9 inches. FAQs, points changes, Codex Creep, etc made this style impractical.
We don't know much about 9th yet, but the changes described so far favor armor, flyers, and artillery. So I agree there are reasons to be concerned this edition will fail the Berzerker Rule test, I will probably still be running Black Legion gunlines and Daemon Primarch lists for a while to come. Could change as we learn more.
All I can hope is that they do consider how shooty 8th edition was, and factor that in when they roll out 9th edition so that it is not quite so terrible for melee type armies.
Maybe this whole coming from reserves rule will change things up. Although as long as there was cheap troop fodder to screen out deep strikers, I fail again to see how it will change things much, short of allowing deep strikers to deep strike like within 2 inches or something like that...
I have come to realise that CSM are sort of all rounders. We aren't the worst at shooting, but we aren't the best either. In that same vein, despite having berserkers and world eaters, I hesitate to say we are the best in melee either, because it comes as a complete package. You need a good mix of durability, melee, ability to cross the battle field to get into melee, and then strategems that support a melee strategy that will truly make for a complete best melee package.
We may seem good at melee, but thats because we often have a bigger melee component that is baked into our lists compared to other armies. Because daemon engines pay for the points to have the ability to fight in exchange for inferior shooting, because Obliterators have mini power fists, and because of other reasons too. So, we sort of pay in points for the ability to melee better by default while other factions may be able to go pure shooty in exchange for a weak melee ability.
If a melee oriented faction wanted to go full melee, it would likely be just as good as CSM's melee lists. Only reason such lists are not popular to begin with is because this 8th edition was such a shooty faction. When even a knight, or Magnus can get shot off the board on turn 1, melee has problems even reaching the opponent.
I think two rules would help us a lot, especially if they want to continue the theme of daemon engines for CSM:
1) Allow our daemon engines to bull doze through terrain like ruins or walls. Since when did a thin wall stop a big hulking daemon engine ? Can you imagine a defiler or lord of skulls stopping before a wall saying " oh, I can't pass through this thing..."
2) Do not let stuff block vehicles or daemon engines. Bring back that tank shock, ram, and thunderblitz rules. Nothing shot of a super heavy should be able to stand there and block my rampaging defiler or maulerfiend charging forward. It just defies belief that a crummy line of infantry can block such a huge hulking rampaging daemon engine. Picture it in real life and you can just see how utterly unrealistic that is.
Eldenfirefly wrote: All I can hope is that they do consider how shooty 8th edition was, and factor that in when they roll out 9th edition so that it is not quite so terrible for melee type armies.
Maybe this whole coming from reserves rule will change things up. Although as long as there was cheap troop fodder to screen out deep strikers, I fail again to see how it will change things much, short of allowing deep strikers to deep strike like within 2 inches or something like that...
The introduction video talks about being strategic with reserves and allowing units to come in from all angles. Not sure what this means, if he's talking about using all table edges or something else.
From a Chaos perspective, reserves are a pretty simple mechanic. We have units that can deep strike, they can only arrive on the table after first turn. Most of them want to charge the turn they arrive, and some armies have ways of preventing that.
If there's some new reserve rule that allows any unit to enter from any table edge other outside your opponent's deployment zone, that might be interesting but I'm not sure it makes a big difference to how the game is played. Maybe it eliminates a turn of footslogging, but it doesn't eliminate the need to screen your army. If anything, I imagine that would make us play a more defensive game.
As long as screens are a thing. reserves rules won't do much I feel.
The biggest thing would be terrain changes. But that could hurt us too because we don't really have artillery. Unless we go forgeworld, which is getting revamped anyway.
Eldenfirefly wrote: As long as screens are a thing. reserves rules won't do much I feel.
The biggest thing would be terrain changes. But that could hurt us too because we don't really have artillery. Unless we go forgeworld, which is getting revamped anyway.
So? Forge World units have been integral to csm for a while. One of the few things that made 7th edition bearable was IA 13. So why should we discount it just because gw is bringing out new books? That's like discounting daemons just because a new daemons codex is announced. It's entirely possible that the new books could improve our fw options. It's almost impossible for them to make some of them worse.
What gw does in the new fw books could make or break csm until we get a new codex.
I was thinking of getting a forgefiend and was wondering what the best loadout was. The triple ectoplasma cannon looks good, but there's the problem of the range. I was thinking of doing one ectoplasma cannon and two autocannons.
Eldenfirefly wrote: As long as screens are a thing. reserves rules won't do much I feel.
The biggest thing would be terrain changes. But that could hurt us too because we don't really have artillery. Unless we go forgeworld, which is getting revamped anyway.
So? Forge World units have been integral to csm for a while. One of the few things that made 7th edition bearable was IA 13. So why should we discount it just because gw is bringing out new books? That's like discounting daemons just because a new daemons codex is announced. It's entirely possible that the new books could improve our fw options. It's almost impossible for them to make some of them worse.
What gw does in the new fw books could make or break csm until we get a new codex.
Yeah, but...
Forgeworld is not wildly popular for CSM. There are some standout units - Contemptors and other Dreads - that come up often in lists and that's it.
GW has continually raised points on things like Spartans, Kharbydis Assault Claws, Daemon Lords, and the like. Most of the stuff in the Index won't fit into a decent list.
What I really want to see out of FW is versatility. I like my Contemptors and Scorpius' and get a lot of work out of them. I'd really like to use the other stuff too.
Eldenfirefly wrote: As long as screens are a thing. reserves rules won't do much I feel.
The biggest thing would be terrain changes. But that could hurt us too because we don't really have artillery. Unless we go forgeworld, which is getting revamped anyway.
So? Forge World units have been integral to csm for a while. One of the few things that made 7th edition bearable was IA 13. So why should we discount it just because gw is bringing out new books? That's like discounting daemons just because a new daemons codex is announced. It's entirely possible that the new books could improve our fw options. It's almost impossible for them to make some of them worse.
What gw does in the new fw books could make or break csm until we get a new codex.
Yeah, but...
Forgeworld is not wildly popular for CSM. There are some standout units - Contemptors and other Dreads - that come up often in lists and that's it.
GW has continually raised points on things like Spartans, Kharbydis Assault Claws, Daemon Lords, and the like. Most of the stuff in the Index won't fit into a decent list.
What I really want to see out of FW is versatility. I like my Contemptors and Scorpius' and get a lot of work out of them. I'd really like to use the other stuff too.
That was my point. All of that stuff was great in 7th. They ruined it in 8th with ridiculous points costs and nerfed rules. I want to wreck things with my fellblade again. I want to drop my contemptor in my opponent's face with my dreadclaw again and be able to reliably make the charge. I want my Night Lords to have the weapons and equipment of an actual legion, not a bunch of dinobots and mutated dreadnoughts.
According to the Q&A, in 9th, modifiers are capped at +1/-1. Just thought I'd leave this here, since Chaos is one of the factions most impacted by this, along with aeldari. Lord discordants just got a huge nerf, as did any lists that revolved around making one hard to hit and them forcing people to shoot it. Nurgle possessed bomb as a list is pretty much dead.
yukishiro1 wrote: According to the Q&A, in 9th, modifiers are capped at +1/-1. Just thought I'd leave this here, since Chaos is one of the factions most impacted by this, along with aeldari. Lord discordants just got a huge nerf, as did any lists that revolved around making one hard to hit and them forcing people to shoot it. Nurgle possessed bomb as a list is pretty much dead.
They can't be used in conjunction with other units/powers that gives off the same auras, but by themselves, I don't see any big nerf. They're still pretty powerful.
Nurgle possessed bomb relied on stacking up several -to hit modifiers together to make a virtually unhittable lord discordant that the enemy had to shoot before it could shoot the possessed (and then on stacking those same modifiers onto the possessed blob later if the discordant did die). The list simply doesn't work with a max -1 to hit on any one unit.
Any similar list that relies on stacking modifiers (almost always -to hit) just isn't going to work in 9th.
Eldarain wrote: Still early days but that alone will increase the already eye watering lethality as it's mostly built around rerolls/double actions not + to hit.
I am more concerned about the ammount of cp we need to use often to Make something work and that we can't Account of that anymore.
It will push us back to herohammer and the odd underpriced unit we have left ....
Eldarain wrote: Still early days but that alone will increase the already eye watering lethality as it's mostly built around rerolls/double actions not + to hit.
I am more concerned about the ammount of cp we need to use often to Make something work and that we can't Account of that anymore.
It will push us back to herohammer and the odd underpriced unit we habe left ....
True. We lean heavily on soup/multi detachments to fuel what power/identity we have.
Eldarain wrote: Still early days but that alone will increase the already eye watering lethality as it's mostly built around rerolls/double actions not + to hit.
I am more concerned about the ammount of cp we need to use often to Make something work and that we can't Account of that anymore.
It will push us back to herohammer and the odd underpriced unit we have left ....
Depends on how much cp you start with doesn't it? If you can get the equivalent or more of a double battalion without running one that means less points spent on tax options and more for our better units. If I can get that amount of cp reliably you can bet no chapter master is getting his aura against the Eighth. Vox Scream till he's dead or the game ends.
I'm more worried about deep strike costing cp. That'll really mess with Night Lords tactics. Turn two and three is where our magic happens.
I didn't interpret that as saying DSing units that can DS naturally takes CP. Just that literally any unit you want can outflank if you spend a CP for it. I would read that as not having any impact on units that have the DS rule themselves native.
Good point. Guess we'll have to wait for more information on the rules. But having to spend cp to deep strike my contemptor in a dreadclaw just on the cusp of possibly having better rules for the dreadclaw is pretty disappointing.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Good point. Guess we'll have to wait for more information on the rules. But having to spend cp to deep strike my contemptor in a dreadclaw just on the cusp of possibly having better rules for the dreadclaw is pretty disappointing.
We don't know much about what's happening so I'm not going to concern myself with changes.
For me, 8th edition was a play in 5 acts.
Act One was a free for all, 20 Berzerkers piling out of a KAC and 120 respawning Cultists was fun.
Acts 2 and 3 were stable. Rode a Black Legion gunline to an abominable amount of wins. Felt good, Abaddon getting his due after all these years.
Act 4 was crazy. All the Codexes had been released, keeping up with the Joneses meant playtesting everything. Was cleaning out entire sections of the table with Bloodletter Bombs.
Act 5 was all about NuMarines. Figuring out how to adapt to rules that put Chaos at a severe disadvantage meant pulling out my Primarchs and Thousand Sons to play stupidly unfluffy lists.
If this went on much longer, pretty sure I would have been down to Chaos Spawn rush lists. The longer an edition goes on, the weirder CSM get.
The only thing I know is whatever works today won't work tomorrow.
I am actually all for modifiers not stacking. That's the easiest way to break the game. And it makes for a bad fix. Oh, you have one combo that lets you create a unit or a hero that is literally unhitable. So your army is fine, op even... I never liked it when I was facing the same kind of cheese, and I usually didn't use it in my army either, but then it sometimes felt that I was gimping myself by choosing not to do it...
Now I just hope they redo all the reroll to hit and reroll to wound aura. Just lengthens the game play if you ask me. Change all the reroll to hit to +1 to hit, and change all the reroll to wound to +1 to wound. Then they will realise how op leutanants are and give them an appropriate point cost.
Typical pendulum swing for GW. Rather than fix the problem they just create a new one. They need to stop trying a once-size-fits-all approach for fixing complex rules.
What does Miasma of Pestilence do in an Alpha Legion army now?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Typical pendulum swing for GW. Rather than fix the problem they just create a new one. They need to stop trying a once-size-fits-all approach for fixing complex rules.
What does Miasma of Pestilence do in an Alpha Legion army now?
GW doesn't understand half the fixes it tries to do.
GW said PA books were done with 9th edition in mind. How can they make clandestine -1 to hit, shadeblade -1 to hit, and AL legion trait -1 to hit, when 9th only allows -1/+1 to hit ??
p5freak wrote: GW said PA books were done with 9th edition in mind. How can they make clandestine -1 to hit, shadeblade -1 to hit, and AL legion trait -1 to hit, when 9th only allows -1/+1 to hit ??
because gw is talking out of it's backside in order to look good.
It's nothing more then corporate speech, managed by the PR department, that much should be obvious from the leaked PDF alone.
p5freak wrote: GW said PA books were done with 9th edition in mind. How can they make clandestine -1 to hit, shadeblade -1 to hit, and AL legion trait -1 to hit, when 9th only allows -1/+1 to hit ??
because gw is talking out of it's backside in order to look good.
It's nothing more then corporate speech, managed by the PR department, that much should be obvious from the leaked PDF alone.
And yes you can mark me as sceptical.
You could probably point that out on their social media and they'll promptly block you too.
Gadzilla666 wrote: I'm more worried about deep strike costing cp. That'll really mess with Night Lords tactics. Turn two and three is where our magic happens.
Maybe the reserve CP is for units WITHOUT existing ability and the CP reserve thing is for units without. It sounds they are INCREASING amount of reserves and putting units that in 8th went to reserve for free to pay CP for reserve seems counter productive for increasing use of reserves.
Could be wrong but for me it sounded "talons can still go for free but if you want to put havocs into reserve that's XCP".
p5freak wrote: GW said PA books were done with 9th edition in mind. How can they make clandestine -1 to hit, shadeblade -1 to hit, and AL legion trait -1 to hit, when 9th only allows -1/+1 to hit ??
because gw is talking out of it's backside in order to look good.
It's nothing more then corporate speech, managed by the PR department, that much should be obvious from the leaked PDF alone.
And yes you can mark me as sceptical.
You could probably point that out on their social media and they'll promptly block you too.
I am fairly confident they blocked me the first time i dared to complain about the quality of the FW index list for R&H
p5freak wrote: GW said PA books were done with 9th edition in mind. How can they make clandestine -1 to hit, shadeblade -1 to hit, and AL legion trait -1 to hit, when 9th only allows -1/+1 to hit ??
because gw is talking out of it's backside in order to look good.
It's nothing more then corporate speech, managed by the PR department, that much should be obvious from the leaked PDF alone.
And yes you can mark me as sceptical.
You could probably point that out on their social media and they'll promptly block you too.
I am fairly confident they blocked me the first time i dared to complain about the quality of the FW index list for R&H
Maybe. But sending them two emails a week for a couple months about why the hellforged super heavys didn't have relentless didn't do it for me.
I imagine that the cap on ±1 means that stacking will confer redundancy
AL and planes with Miasma will still be at -1 to be hit when targeted by +1 stuff and within plasma double tap range
The invisible T-poser was always an exploit and unlikely to last forever. RAI-wise, if you want to be the only thing your opponent can see, they’ve got to be able to actually see you
BlaxicanX wrote: I haven't kept tabs on CSM since Vigilus 1 was announced. Do non-soup CSM have any options for forming a good gunline? I'm playing a doubles with a Daemons player who's going all melee, so chaff-clearing and potentially tank-busting falls to me. Are Iron Warriors any good now, or is there a better legion to go with for a shooting-focused army?
Black Legion gunlines. Abaddon, lascannon Havocs, Contemptors with Lascannons, 10x CSM squads with 2 lascannons, and toss in some Scorpius Whirlwinds. Put everyone inside Abaddon's reroll bubble and you will clean your opponents off the board.
If you're playing doubles with an all-melee Daemon's army, that's enough to make people hate you.
So I've been playing a Black Legion Abaddon Lascannon gunline for a while (very often at 1k-1.5k points) and it cannot handle RG or Knights to any capacity. Wondering if you have any tips that could help me out?
The RG I play against tend to have a lot of minimum sized squads that require way too many lascannons to take out, plus a huge outflanking intercessor unit and some in-my-face warsuits and aggressors. My best luck was replacing contemptors with a double Rapid-fire battlecannon knight which could (with some lucky dice...) take out a suppressor squad in cover a turn.
The Knight player just takes Iconoclast Chaos Knights and I can't deal damage to them. Their invuln save blocks too many lascannons and the ones that do get through roll low damage, so an entire ball of havocs with all the re-rolls (abaddon, armour bane lord from devastation battery) and buffs (VotLW, Prescience, Warp Sight Plea) with the Votlw+hit buffed unit shooting twice tends to do ALMOST enough damage to kill a knight... but there's 2 left!
Really struggling on figuring out how to make my boy Abaddon work with his legion but these two armies rip me apart. My little brother started playing Orks recently too and I'm not sure how I'm going to handle 2 units of 30 boyz with lascannons...
You have to take a look at techsoldaten's list. It has quite a lot of space marines in it. And even some cultists. So he has the fodder to block and delay melee units. He also uses beatsticks like Abaddon and/or a daemon prince as a counter charge melee unit. Target priority becomes very important in such a list. His list is a 2000 point list though. Not sure if this changes a lot if you go down to 1000 points. I think Abaddon is a tad too expensive for a 1000 point list.
For 9th ed. I am happy they are reducing stacking and capping it. Look at Nu Marines. Its rules upon rules upon rules. So, if you cap stacking, maybe that will help cap the silliness. I would rather give up our alpha legion hard to hit cheese if everything on stacking is capped properly. Maybe that way they will balance the game better instead of relying on stacking to make one unit broken. Let's face it, how fun is it to play against an unkillable Iron Hands Leviathan or an unhittable Lord discordant?
Eldenfirefly wrote: You have to take a look at techsoldaten's list. It has quite a lot of space marines in it. And even some cultists. So he has the fodder to block and delay melee units. He also uses beatsticks like Abaddon and/or a daemon prince as a counter charge melee unit. Target priority becomes very important in such a list. His list is a 2000 point list though. Not sure if this changes a lot if you go down to 1000 points. I think Abaddon is a tad too expensive for a 1000 point list.
For 9th ed. I am happy they are reducing stacking and capping it. Look at Nu Marines. Its rules upon rules upon rules. So, if you cap stacking, maybe that will help cap the silliness. I would rather give up our alpha legion hard to hit cheese if everything on stacking is capped properly. Maybe that way they will balance the game better instead of relying on stacking to make one unit broken. Let's face it, how fun is it to play against an unkillable Iron Hands Leviathan or an unhittable Lord discordant?
I in fact have 3 lists he has posted in my sticky notes on my computer's desktop, and have for a few months now At 1000 I drop Abaddon for just the Chaos Lord w/ Armour Bane, so it does change the dynamic a little (although for the most part it's still 2 squads hitting on 2+ rerolling 1s, so only the 1 squad misses on 2s).
I guess the key part where it all goes wrong vs Chaos Knights is by the end of turn 2 (sometimes even turn 1) he's done enough damage that I can't possibly clear him out any more. At 2000 points I have a little more wiggle room as I can fit in the contemptors and have an extra turn, maybe 2 of firepower. 4+ invulnerable saves + low # of shots + variable damage spells disaster (31 lascannon shots, let's say all hit between buffs and full rerolls, 8 of those shots wound on 2+ due to VotLW and slaanesh double-shoot but otherwise wounding on 3+ = ~21 wounds, 10.5 get passed saves, average damage would kill a knight but I don't ever get average damage (this is my real problem, low spikes))
I've never had a melee element make it to combat, either. Trail of Destruction makes his Overwatch too deadly, and it lasts all phase so I can't throw sacrificial cultists at it to tie it up/waste the stratagem to let a chainsorc charge in. All in all very sad, feeling very defeated playing Black Legion and losing hope of all tweaks in the mathhammer phase (autocannons instead of lascannons to get more shots and more consistent damage... reaper chaincannons in a rhino instead of 1 lascannon squad...)
Sounds like you need techsoldaton's advice more. He is very experienced with his list. So, he can tell you better. I said before though. If you want gunline, other factions do it better. Ours is not going to be the deadliest gunline.
Have you considered using a jump pack sorceror with death hex? Removing a invul save on a knight would make it a lot more easier to kill. And its worth sacrificing the sorceror if you can get off deathhex and kill the knight in exchange. If other factions are playing netlists, my opinion is that then our lists would suffer. Short of pulling out all the stops and using stuff like chaos soup with possessed bomb cheese, TS sorcerors, etc.
Also, are you playing ITC format ? Or just general missions. Because knights tend to suffer in ITC format because its hard for them to hold more objectives.
BlaxicanX wrote: I haven't kept tabs on CSM since Vigilus 1 was announced. Do non-soup CSM have any options for forming a good gunline? I'm playing a doubles with a Daemons player who's going all melee, so chaff-clearing and potentially tank-busting falls to me. Are Iron Warriors any good now, or is there a better legion to go with for a shooting-focused army?
Black Legion gunlines. Abaddon, lascannon Havocs, Contemptors with Lascannons, 10x CSM squads with 2 lascannons, and toss in some Scorpius Whirlwinds. Put everyone inside Abaddon's reroll bubble and you will clean your opponents off the board.
If you're playing doubles with an all-melee Daemon's army, that's enough to make people hate you.
So I've been playing a Black Legion Abaddon Lascannon gunline for a while (very often at 1k-1.5k points) and it cannot handle RG or Knights to any capacity. Wondering if you have any tips that could help me out?
The RG I play against tend to have a lot of minimum sized squads that require way too many lascannons to take out, plus a huge outflanking intercessor unit and some in-my-face warsuits and aggressors. My best luck was replacing contemptors with a double Rapid-fire battlecannon knight which could (with some lucky dice...) take out a suppressor squad in cover a turn.
The Knight player just takes Iconoclast Chaos Knights and I can't deal damage to them. Their invuln save blocks too many lascannons and the ones that do get through roll low damage, so an entire ball of havocs with all the re-rolls (abaddon, armour bane lord from devastation battery) and buffs (VotLW, Prescience, Warp Sight Plea) with the Votlw+hit buffed unit shooting twice tends to do ALMOST enough damage to kill a knight... but there's 2 left!
Really struggling on figuring out how to make my boy Abaddon work with his legion but these two armies rip me apart. My little brother started playing Orks recently too and I'm not sure how I'm going to handle 2 units of 30 boyz with lascannons...
Sure, we can talk about that. I usually play at 2k points, it's been a while since I played anything less.
Imperial Knights, Orks, and Dark Eldar are natural counters to a Black Legion gunline. Doesn't mean you can't win, but you may need to switch some things up.
The natural way the gunline works is a combination of Abaddon, a Sorcerer, a Daemon Prince, 3x squads of Lascannon Havocs, 3x squads of 10x CSM with dual lascannons, 2x Contemptors with dual lascannons, and fill out the rest with cultists for screening. Set up on your table edge, keep everyone conga lined around Abaddon for rerolls to hit, and surround your shooters with cultists. Don't move your units unless it's necessary. This should give you at least a couple turns where you can shoot with lascannons but your opponent can't do much in return.
When I'm playing any of the natural counters, I swap out the Havocs or the Contemptors for Scorpius Whirlwinds and put them as far out of line of site as possible. A Scorpius with rerolls to hit will usually take out an Intercessor squad per turn when it's firing twice, which is key to beating NuMarines. 3 of them is about enough to take a Knight to it's lowest tier, wipe out a couple Boys squads, remove a Raider and some Mandrakes, etc.
The key is maintaining distance. You want to make it really hard for your opponent to charge until the 3rd or 4th turn. You should be taking out Knights, Tanks, Elites, Troops, HQs in that order, you have time to be very picky about your targets.
As far as Knights go, the math favors you in most situations. Let's say you have 24 lascannons. You will be hitting / wounding about 40% of the time and doing about 3 damage each time. The invul save is 33%, which means you would be doing about 18 wounds a turn on average. I don't know what he's running, but if it's triple Despoilers with 24" dual melta guns you should be able to shoot up one Knight first turn and be working on the second before it can shoot anything on your side that matters. I think you could find a way to win that match up, you will probably only have one Knight to deal with when it gets to your lines. Tell me more about how those games go, more information would help.
As far as MSURG goes, you want to bring Scorpius tanks and force him to footslog for a couple turns. The thing about MSU armies - they have a hard time with corners. This is non-intuitive for a gunline, but try and position your forces so your opponent can't bring everything around all at once, then switch up the target priority. I had one game (against Iron Hands) where my Scorpius tanks were behind a building, my lascannons were spread out in my backfield. I was deleting a couple Intercessor squads per turn, which meant he had to bring Repulsors up the table to fight me. Turn 3, got lascannons on the first one and blew it up. Turn 4, did the same to the second Repulsor. He was down to Aggressors and a Lieutenant to face just about my entire army, there was no way for him to win.
As far as Orks go, repeating something I've said before: 20 lascannons means 20 dead Orks per turn. The game is 5 turns and everything else is a bonus. Unless your opponent is doing a green tide, you have the tools to table him as long as you can force him to cross the maximum distance.
I usually shoot up any Lootas first then put everything else into the Boys. It's usually safe to ignore Trukks and Kans, the real threat is the Mobs. When I play Orks, I get very nitpicky about placement of my screens so I can limit their ability to charge. There's one player at my FLGS who likes to bring Stormboys, which can be a pain, along with bikes. But usually games against Orks come down to a single turn, where I have about 30 CSM firing 60 Bolter shots into a couple mobs of Boys. With Abaddon's rerolls to hit, that usually means at least 20 dead Boys and Abaddon and the DP can deal with the rest.
Last thing, when it comes to CP - resist the urge to burn points on Endless Cacophony each turn. Rerolls for wounds / damage are more important with a gunline, you want those especially in the later turns. If you're doing it right, you have at least 8 lascannons at the end of the game.
There's some deployment tricks I could teach you about. Save that for another time.
Thanks for the advice! My opponent prefers Gatling cannons to the thermal cannons so has 36" range so he's usually in range turn 1. He's also got a nasty Castigator he gives the 4++ save relic so he never needs to spend CP to rotate shields. We actually stream so there might be VODs of out last few TTS games but I won't burden you with them. I'll try out some of what you said and if it still goes disastrously I might review a game and take more detailed notes on how it played out for the thread to rip apart my every play haha
Death Hex sorcerer seems likely to give me more mileage in this matchup specifically than the chainsorc who always dies in overwatch.
Just had a thought - if the full Flamers predator remains a thing, tanks being able to shoot whilst in combat could well make it a contender for your first Warptime. Throw it into the middle of the enemy army, get burning and nomming
Nice synergy with fall back blockers - get some Fiends of Slaanesh or an ashen axe in there and it’s a pretty nasty tarpit
Be interesting to see if tanks can overwatch. That would make it utterly brutal
Oh hey, my land raider’s the FW one thar’s got two heavy Flamers, similar thing applies to that and Spartan I guess
lindsay40k wrote: Just had a thought - if the full Flamers predator remains a thing, tanks being able to shoot whilst in combat could well make it a contender for your first Warptime. Throw it into the middle of the enemy army, get burning and nomming
Nice synergy with fall back blockers - get some Fiends of Slaanesh or an ashen axe in there and it’s a pretty nasty tarpit
Be interesting to see if tanks can overwatch. That would make it utterly brutal
Oh hey, my land raider’s the FW one thar’s got two heavy Flamers, similar thing applies to that and Spartan I guess
assuming of course, that the pricetag isn't as asinine as it is Right now, i could see that.
lindsay40k wrote: Just had a thought - if the full Flamers predator remains a thing, tanks being able to shoot whilst in combat could well make it a contender for your first Warptime. Throw it into the middle of the enemy army, get burning and nomming
Nice synergy with fall back blockers - get some Fiends of Slaanesh or an ashen axe in there and it’s a pretty nasty tarpit
Be interesting to see if tanks can overwatch. That would make it utterly brutal
Oh hey, my land raider’s the FW one thar’s got two heavy Flamers, similar thing applies to that and Spartan I guess
assuming of course, that the pricetag isn't as asinine as it is Right now, i could see that.
also , it0s a predator, so ehhhh.
Don't underestimate a vehicle with the machine malifica rule stuck in cc if it can still shoot. They can continue killing targets while regenerating wounds and locking up infantry through cc. I do this with my fellblade. It works. Don't forget, their WS gets better as they degrade.
lindsay40k wrote: Just had a thought - if the full Flamers predator remains a thing, tanks being able to shoot whilst in combat could well make it a contender for your first Warptime. Throw it into the middle of the enemy army, get burning and nomming
Nice synergy with fall back blockers - get some Fiends of Slaanesh or an ashen axe in there and it’s a pretty nasty tarpit
Be interesting to see if tanks can overwatch. That would make it utterly brutal
Oh hey, my land raider’s the FW one thar’s got two heavy Flamers, similar thing applies to that and Spartan I guess
assuming of course, that the pricetag isn't as asinine as it is Right now, i could see that.
also , it0s a predator, so ehhhh.
Don't underestimate a vehicle with the machine malifica rule stuck in cc if it can still shoot. They can continue killing targets while regenerating wounds and locking up infantry through cc. I do this with my fellblade. It works. Don't forget, their WS gets better as they degrade.
considering we have a rewrite closeish of FW i am still doubtfull, also still a predator with a pricetag that is even less justifyable then the regular one.
But i guess for some shenanigans list i can think it could work
lindsay40k wrote: Just had a thought - if the full Flamers predator remains a thing, tanks being able to shoot whilst in combat could well make it a contender for your first Warptime. Throw it into the middle of the enemy army, get burning and nomming
Nice synergy with fall back blockers - get some Fiends of Slaanesh or an ashen axe in there and it’s a pretty nasty tarpit
Be interesting to see if tanks can overwatch. That would make it utterly brutal
Oh hey, my land raider’s the FW one thar’s got two heavy Flamers, similar thing applies to that and Spartan I guess
assuming of course, that the pricetag isn't as asinine as it is Right now, i could see that.
also , it0s a predator, so ehhhh.
Don't underestimate a vehicle with the machine malifica rule stuck in cc if it can still shoot. They can continue killing targets while regenerating wounds and locking up infantry through cc. I do this with my fellblade. It works. Don't forget, their WS gets better as they degrade.
considering we have a rewrite closeish of FW i am still doubtfull, also still a predator with a pricetag that is even less justifyable then the regular one.
But i guess for some shenanigans list i can think it could work
True, I wonder if machine malifica will still exist in the rewrite, perhaps daemonic possession will go back to being an option. Though I'd gladly take it back as a default on dreadclaws if it means a points reduction.
Rihgu wrote: Thanks for the advice! My opponent prefers Gatling cannons to the thermal cannons so has 36" range so he's usually in range turn 1. He's also got a nasty Castigator he gives the 4++ save relic so he never needs to spend CP to rotate shields. We actually stream so there might be VODs of out last few TTS games but I won't burden you with them. I'll try out some of what you said and if it still goes disastrously I might review a game and take more detailed notes on how it played out for the thread to rip apart my every play haha
Death Hex sorcerer seems likely to give me more mileage in this matchup specifically than the chainsorc who always dies in overwatch.
In a way, the Dual Gatling Cannons works in your favor, it means he has fewer other things in his army.
If you're playing a gunline, the first thing you have to work out is deployment. Get your guys back as far as possible on the table and make him work to cross the table. 36" + 12" move technically puts your lascannons in range, but within a radius. Some should not be able to be targeted until turn 2.
That Knight will have a stubber, the 2 gunarms, and maybe a missile launcher. He can only target 4 units at a time max and will probably go after the Contemptors and Havocs because they have the most lascannons.
As far as the Castigator goes, Death Hex is one idea. In another list, I use Ahriman and a couple Sorcerers on Disks in a Supreme Command Detachment. If you are going to try and get the Knight with debuffs, that's how I might approach it.
But it might not be necessary. He's going to charge your lines, you have screens to impede him. Bring out a couple squads of Cultists to slow him down then toss a Daemon Prince in his way. Make it so he doesn't get there until turn 4, when you should have been bracketed. Then just toss CSMs at him to make sure he doesn't get closer.
BlaxicanX wrote: I haven't kept tabs on CSM since Vigilus 1 was announced. Do non-soup CSM have any options for forming a good gunline? I'm playing a doubles with a Daemons player who's going all melee, so chaff-clearing and potentially tank-busting falls to me. Are Iron Warriors any good now, or is there a better legion to go with for a shooting-focused army?
If you consider Thousand Sons non-soup,
I had fun building a shooty chaos list in the last months. 3 detachements. Thousand Sons to unlock the Rubric buffing stratagems. Iron Warriors for the Obliterators and the Rubrics. 76 hots -2 AP ignore cover with reroll wound rolls against vehicles are strong. The combination of Thousand Sond and Iron Warriors stratagems makrs them very hard to shift. Third detachement are Emperors Children with a 20 man Noise Marine unit. 120 shots S5 D2 ignore cover reroll wounds kills everything in this game and a copy of it. Had some success with it winning and getting to the top tables in some TTS tournaments. Best part? Its super easy to kill Marines with it.
About this whole thing about board sizes being smaller in 9th edition. It may be a buff to us CSM. I actually feel good about it. Smaller boards buffs melee because there is less inches to cover before getting into combat.
Also, CSM has traditionally been a more mid ranged army. So, if the board size is smaller, then this is good for us because we likely may start off within range to shoot anyway despite being mid ranged. Also, CSM tends be be better at melee (I mean, we are definitely not the best at shooting). So, again, a development that buffs melee against ranged is good for us.
I wasn't sure if 9th edition was going to be terrible for us, because initially, none of what I was hearing seemed to be much good for CSM armies. But I actually feel better now after hearing about this smaller boardsize.
Eldenfirefly wrote: About this whole thing about board sizes being smaller in 9th edition. It may be a buff to us CSM. I actually feel good about it. Smaller boards buffs melee because there is less inches to cover before getting into combat.
How do you know that ? No mans land could still be 24". A 2k game will have less models, so deployment zones can be smaller.
Eldenfirefly wrote: About this whole thing about board sizes being smaller in 9th edition. It may be a buff to us CSM. I actually feel good about it. Smaller boards buffs melee because there is less inches to cover before getting into combat.
Also, CSM has traditionally been a more mid ranged army. So, if the board size is smaller, then this is good for us because we likely may start off within range to shoot anyway despite being mid ranged. Also, CSM tends be be better at melee (I mean, we are definitely not the best at shooting). So, again, a development that buffs melee against ranged is good for us.
I wasn't sure if 9th edition was going to be terrible for us, because initially, none of what I was hearing seemed to be much good for CSM armies. But I actually feel better now after hearing about this smaller boardsize.
I am not as optimistic:
Mostly because it doesn't actually help the core melee units for that there are multiple reasons but here a list:
-24" no mans land, so nothing changed there.
- 30 " gun infantry will have a potentially easier time decimating you from the start even.
- Durability for medium fire fights is not given for CSM.
The biggest winner will be bomb units, over efficent melee units with fly or other movement shenanigans in conjunction with movement buffs, so yes , flinging T1 a RC daemonprince into your enemy will be alot easier.
Transports will be even less usefull, because smaller table means less overal ground to manouvre needed. And the modified terrain rules will cripple CSM more in that regard because fly transports are not something we got.
Combine that with the pricehike incoming and i seriously doubt that it will be everything but primaris domination atleast initially.
A smaller board will also make it easier to screen out deep strikes. That hurts csm, some legions more than others. Night Lords are all about deep striking units.
He hasn't changed too much but his assistant now let's you add or subtract 1 from the D3 roll when you "enhance" units. This is pretty impactful because you are now guaranteed access to +1T and have a 2/3 chance for rolling +1S or +1A if you are targeting them. Seeing that +1T is the best option in most cases anyway, this is actually pretty good.
He hasn't changed too much but his assistant now let's you add or subtract 1 from the D3 roll when you "enhance" units. This is pretty impactful because you are now guaranteed access to +1T and have a 2/3 chance for rolling +1S or +1A if you are targeting them. Seeing that +1T is the best option in most cases anyway, this is actually pretty good.
Well at least some of it. There could still be something left. Previews rarely show everything.
They didnt show the actual enhance warriors rule. Does the receiving unit still has to roll and suffer a MW on a 6 ? T6 havocs in cover sound nice. Do characters still refuse his dubious gift ?
Based on the latest nugget revealed on warhammer community, vehicles will be able to shoot into combat. And all vehicles and large monsters can move and shoot heavy weapons without suffering the -1 to hit penalty. This is a buff to our daemon engines that have guns (which is most of them). A defiler may actually be viable now. A land raider might be viable too (maybe?).
And plague burst crawlers are now even better since their flamers can just shoot into combat.
If they would just make all our daemon engines basic BS skill 3+ instead of 4+, I would be happy. I never understood why being a Daemon Engine automatically means you are worse at shooting... lol
Okay, update:
- vehicles and monsters can use anything as a pistol other than a blast weapon
- blast weapons inflict a minimum of 3 hits against units of 3-10 and max hits against units of 11+
- If a vehicle’s in CC, you can target a distant unit with one gun and as long as the other kills everything in CC your long ranged attack can proceed
- heavy weapons only get -1 to hit when infantry use them
My takes:
- hybrid Helbrute builds are a lot better. They can shoot on the hoof with full accuracy, and use lascannons and butcher cannons point-blank.
- the flame tank predator is now a definite candidate for T1 Warptime, especially if you can prevent fall back
- if the Land Raider Proteus can still have dual heavy Flamers, it’s also a nasty prospect for rolling up
- Defiler is probably unequivocally good now. Heavy Flamers definitely worth it. Starting near a Gnarlmaw will be tasty
- Kharybdis might be incredible again
- pistolero DP is fun
- Heavy rhino loadouts are probably overcosted, still best to keep them cheap
- DG daemon engines no longer need a Gnarlmaw to play pinball
- DGDP will always benefit from a Spewer
- Forgefiends are still in a weird place, if you love the model you can maybe get one competent round of shooting out of it by trailing a LD
Eldenfirefly wrote: Based on the latest nugget revealed on warhammer community, vehicles will be able to shoot into combat. And all vehicles and large monsters can move and shoot heavy weapons without suffering the -1 to hit penalty. This is a buff to our daemon engines that have guns (which is most of them). A defiler may actually be viable now. A land raider might be viable too (maybe?).
And plague burst crawlers are now even better since their flamers can just shoot into combat.
If they would just make all our daemon engines basic BS skill 3+ instead of 4+, I would be happy. I never understood why being a Daemon Engine automatically means you are worse at shooting... lol
Apparently daemons are bad shots. Remember when you could give your vehicles daemonic possession and it would make their ballistic skill worse?
These new terrain rules look pretty good for berserkers, as it's gonna be far harder to just pick them off through tiny slits in cover, and the save for cover does not work against charges.
ArcaneHorror wrote: These new terrain rules look pretty good for berserkers, as it's gonna be far harder to just pick them off through tiny slits in cover, and the save for cover does not work against charges.
I don’t know, for anyone that was playing with ITC ruins first floor LOS blocking rules or with Nova L’s this seems worse. With the aforementioned terrain rules you could push a unit you wanted to charge with all the way up to the edge of the ruin, hide out of LOS, and pop out and charge next turn. Now you have to remain outside of the ruin which will expose your flanks more and cost you anywhere from 6-10” of movement depending on the size of the central LOS blockers. I can’t help but see this as a downgrade if you were playing under those style tourney rules.
If they consider ruins as obsucring. Even if there are window slits in those ruins, it will obscure all shooting through it. Plus it will have infinite height. I think this is quite a big buff for melee. Basically as long as you advance up the board behind a big piece of obscuring terrain, it will be very challenging for your opponent to get a bead on you.
By the time you break through that obscuring terrain, you are likely quite possibly within charge range. (especially with the smaller table sizes now).
The biggest issue I see would be weapons for fire out of LOS. I hope those are costed appropriately. Because those are now extremely powerful in these new terrain rules.
Eldenfirefly wrote: If they consider ruins as obsucring. Even if there are window slits in those ruins, it will obscure all shooting through it. Plus it will have infinite height. I think this is quite a big buff for melee. Basically as long as you advance up the board behind a big piece of obscuring terrain, it will be very challenging for your opponent to get a bead on you.
By the time you break through that obscuring terrain, you are likely quite possibly within charge range. (especially with the smaller table sizes now).
The biggest issue I see would be weapons for fire out of LOS. I hope those are costed appropriately. Because those are now extremely powerful in these new terrain rules.
I honestly have a bit of issues with the cover system, it just feels like Halfmeasures for halfmeasures sake. Leading to some rather amusing scenarios, cue Galas 2 marines pic.....
Also wounds beeing used as abstraction again (like with charachters) will be another whole can of worms..
I guess i am a bit let down, considering how "solid the terrain " is supposedly.
Grante small melee squads will profit if the terrain is propperly set up, as for the LOS ignoring weaponry, most of them will be blast, so they'll hike anyways and most of them weren't particulary great to begin with.
Hmmm, and a new article about the new rules on aircraft. Plus... the helldrake is NOT an aircraft. So, no fancy aircraft rules for the Helldrake. And with that, CSM essentially has zero aircraft...
In fact, neither does Chaos daemons. So, chaos has zero aircraft ...
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmmm, and a new article about the new rules on aircraft. Plus... the helldrake is NOT an aircraft. So, no fancy aircraft rules for the Helldrake. And with that, CSM essentially has zero aircraft...
In fact, neither does Chaos daemons. So, chaos has zero aircraft ...
Hell talon, hell blade, xiphon interceptor. R&H have valkyries.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmmm, and a new article about the new rules on aircraft. Plus... the helldrake is NOT an aircraft. So, no fancy aircraft rules for the Helldrake. And with that, CSM essentially has zero aircraft...
In fact, neither does Chaos daemons. So, chaos has zero aircraft ...
Hell talon, hell blade, xiphon interceptor. R&H have valkyries.
So nothing outside FW, which is kinda in limbo right now.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Based on the latest nugget revealed on warhammer community, vehicles will be able to shoot into combat. And all vehicles and large monsters can move and shoot heavy weapons without suffering the -1 to hit penalty. This is a buff to our daemon engines that have guns (which is most of them). A defiler may actually be viable now. A land raider might be viable too (maybe?).
And plague burst crawlers are now even better since their flamers can just shoot into combat.
If they would just make all our daemon engines basic BS skill 3+ instead of 4+, I would be happy. I never understood why being a Daemon Engine automatically means you are worse at shooting... lol
Apparently daemons are bad shots. Remember when you could give your vehicles daemonic possession and it would make their ballistic skill worse?
in 4th edition demonic possession just made you immune to shaken and stunned not worse BS, 4ht ed IW played 3 predators with demonic possession+mutated hull and i dont remember any malus to BS.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmmm, and a new article about the new rules on aircraft. Plus... the helldrake is NOT an aircraft. So, no fancy aircraft rules for the Helldrake. And with that, CSM essentially has zero aircraft...
In fact, neither does Chaos daemons. So, chaos has zero aircraft ...
Hell talon, hell blade, xiphon interceptor. R&H have valkyries.
There is a table on the article listing out exactly which units gain the aircraft keyword.
Valkyrie is on that list. So yeah, R&H can get that. But Hell Blade and Xiphon interveptor are NOT on that list. So, they do not have the aircraft keyword unless
this is FAQed in, or unless forgeword gets a rewrite later that updates these two with the aircraft keyword. Considering chaos is such a big faction that encompasses death guard, thousand sons, CSM, chaos daemons, chaos knights ... I just find it kind of ridiculous that we essentially have zero aircraft (unless we want to play R&H) ,,,
Eldenfirefly wrote: But Hell Blade and Xiphon interveptor are NOT on that list. So, they do not have the aircraft keyword unless
this is FAQed in, or unless forgeword gets a rewrite later that updates these two with the aircraft keyword. Considering chaos is such a big faction that encompasses death guard, thousand sons, CSM, chaos daemons, chaos knights ... I just find it kind of ridiculous that we essentially have zero aircraft (unless we want to play R&H) ,,,
Read the article :
*** The list of Forge World Flyers receiving the Aircraft keyword will be included in their rules updates on the same day that the new edition is launched.
Ah, ok, missed that important line in italics right at the bottom of the article. My bad, sorry. So, let's cross our fingers and hope the forgeworld update is kind to us for aircraft ... because as of now, GW core book has nothing for us in that respect.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Ah, ok, missed that important line in italics right at the bottom of the article. My bad, sorry. So, let's cross our fingers and hope the forgeworld update is kind to us for aircraft ... because as of now, GW core book has nothing for us in that respect.
Errrrrnm so long the absolutely awesome looking hell Blades and Talons existed their rules were .... How to put it, iffy at best and absurdly overpriced at worst.
Tbf though both Variants could've been Made into plastic and keeping the helldrake a rarer terror that it should be comparatively to mass producers fightet and fighterbomber aircraft from xana II and the old aircraft from preheresy.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Apparently daemons are bad shots. Remember when you could give your vehicles daemonic possession and it would make their ballistic skill worse?
Forget being bad shots, they're bad at swinging their fists as well. Equal to the mighty Guardsmen.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Apparently daemons are bad shots. Remember when you could give your vehicles daemonic possession and it would make their ballistic skill worse?
Forget being bad shots, they're bad at swinging their fists as well. Equal to the mighty Guardsmen.
Well, there's allways the decimator, which does both well but also pays a bit too much atm.
Granted, with these changes dual butcher backup around a lord discordant might actually be decent, and , depending if the GW ruleswriter take a hint from IA13 instead of the gakshow indexes for FW we might actually get them to atleast usable levels in general for FW stuff.
And all this is because butcher cannons are good. All it takes is for them to make one bad update to butcher cannons stats or costs in forgeworld and it would render even the currently viable CSM forgeworld units into oblivion.
Eldenfirefly wrote: And all this is because butcher cannons are good. All it takes is for them to make one bad update to butcher cannons stats or costs in forgeworld and it would render even the currently viable CSM forgeworld units into oblivion.
no, butcher cannons are actually rather bad, comparatively to the cheaper Hades AC, which is in essence the same gun but cheaper, by 20%.
The difference is that the units that use the butcher are generally decent shots(aka bs 3+) whilest the hades is stuck on incompetent bs4+ models. But pay the price for that, whilest the GW daemonengines with the hades ac and ectoplasma just plain overpayed and or didn't profit from traits and or are just too fragile for their pts cost or all of the aftermentioned if you are a forgiefiend or helldrake with hades AC:
FW units atm are priced decently atm (excluding R&H because obvious), with the odd nerfed to unreasonableness weapon choice for their plattforms, looking at the petard for exemple.
the changes to vehicles ignoring -1 for moving and shooting heavy weapons will do good for alot of regular GW Hades AC plattforms. My hades helldrake allready was a wierd one for my enmy to face as a sationary 3+ hades cannon station, now it also becomes a nice tool to attack something in melee aswell as dakkaing happily away. Still overpriced so i hope for a smaller hike for the general hike allready coming.
Str 8 is kinda a big deal over str 7. At str 8, butcher cannons wound a T4 model on a 2+. They wound knights and T8 on a 4+, and they wound T7 on a 3+. That plus the better BS skill, which I agree with you about.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Str 8 is kinda a big deal over str 7. At str 8, butcher cannons wound a T4 model on a 2+. They wound knights and T8 on a 4+, and they wound T7 on a 3+. That plus the better BS skill, which I agree with you about.
Hades AC are also S8 same profile sans the moral which as of now is kinda worthless.
Then again we should be happy, considering now you can consider a forgefiend trailing a Lord discordant without sacrificing 25% of shots to the BS issues induced by mobile positioning.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Apparently daemons are bad shots. Remember when you could give your vehicles daemonic possession and it would make their ballistic skill worse?
Forget being bad shots, they're bad at swinging their fists as well. Equal to the mighty Guardsmen.
Well, there's allways the decimator, which does both well but also pays a bit too much atm.
Granted, with these changes dual butcher backup around a lord discordant might actually be decent, and , depending if the GW ruleswriter take a hint from IA13 instead of the gakshow indexes for FW we might actually get them to atleast usable levels in general for FW stuff.
Decimators should be able to come back from the dead again.
And for sake gw, fix the legion super heavys points and make our dreadclaws good again!
Not Online!!! wrote: Depends on the price of the hellflamer and how usefull Overall flamers are
Yeah, I did the math and the hellflamers are slightly better on average against geq but less against peq than ectoplasma blasters. That combined with the blasters extra 10 of range means I'll probably be sticking with them assuming they remain the cheaper option.
If my 6 S14 AP-4 D4 attacks hitting on 2s on the charge dreadnought is fighting guardsmen I've done something wrong haven't I?
Of course as you point out, points and possibly the rules for flamers could change.
I am seeing translated readings of Bile’s revised rules saying that he can only enhance during your own movement phase, and instead of a mistake causing a MW it’s now instant death
If true, IMO he’s lost most of his niches as an ally, and is probably pretty hard to use in his own legion
Eldarain wrote: That faction focus makes it seem more likely they have yet again just nerfed Cultists to "improve" Chaos Marines.
We've only seen a tiny part of the new rules. It's said that daemon engines will be improved (hopefully on BS and WS). Also, the new overwatch rules look like they could be very helpful for melee units like berzerkers.
Eldarain wrote: That faction focus makes it seem more likely they have yet again just nerfed Cultists to "improve" Chaos Marines.
We've only seen a tiny part of the new rules. It's said that daemon engines will be improved (hopefully on BS and WS). Also, the new overwatch rules look like they could be very helpful for melee units like berzerkers.
I read it as "improved" by being able to fire in combat and fight. Many of the game wide changes are good for us.
Eldarain wrote: That faction focus makes it seem more likely they have yet again just nerfed Cultists to "improve" Chaos Marines.
What do you expect them to do? Actually give csm good rules that don't require stacking buffs on them to make them work? Who do you think we are? Loyalists?
Vortenger wrote: Correct, but it's also roll once for the unit, not roll once per model. Still works well on large groups like possessed.
Gee golly jeepers, you appear to be right, this is a massive game-changer, where to begin with him now? T5 Poxwalkers, Rubricae, Berzerkers? Not worth using on Oblits, but I could go for ultra Red Butchers. Bile is definitely back on the shortlist now, easy plugin to an infantry list and you can build a list around him as well
Vortenger wrote: Correct, but it's also roll once for the unit, not roll once per model. Still works well on large groups like possessed.
Gee golly jeepers, you appear to be right, this is a massive game-changer, where to begin with him now? T5 Poxwalkers, Rubricae, Berzerkers? Not worth using on Oblits, but I could go for ultra Red Butchers. Bile is definitely back on the shortlist now, easy plugin to an infantry list and you can build a list around him as well
Keep in mind that the unit must be wholly within 6" of bile to be enhanced.
Eldarain wrote: While it's still not amazing, the ability to deep strike in your own zone right on top of threats might merit keeping some points back for summoning.
Cheapo counter Termines might be a decent deterent.
It sounds like it isn't deep strike, it's only outflank. You can't pop some termines straight into combat in the middle of your deployment zone, you can only do it if they're coming on from a board edge.
yukishiro1 wrote: It sounds like it isn't deep strike, it's only outflank. You can't pop some termines straight into combat in the middle of your deployment zone, you can only do it if they're coming on from a board edge.
Ha. Damn. I'd finally found something to like about Summoning.
Bile needs to be warlord in a Creations of Bile army, yes. However, you can still run him as not-warlord in another Legion if you want to, although of course he will not benefit from any of his Creations of Bile rules.
One thing that I just realised which is a very big negative - Bile's Experimental Enhancements rule happens at the **end** of the movement phase. This means if you want to sling a big unit of Possessed (or similar) across the table T1 they won't be within range for the buff.
I am kind of salty that you can't take both a the Creations keyword and a legion keyword at the same time, but I can see where GW is coming from, as Bile considers himself behold to no one.
However, you can still run him as not-warlord in another Legion if you want to, although of course he will not benefit from any of his Creations of Bile rules.
The detachment where he is in would need to be a HERETIC ASTARTES detachment, no legion trait for anyone. Or you spend 1CP for an aux support detachment.
One thing that I just realised which is a very big negative - Bile's Experimental Enhancements rule happens at the **end** of the movement phase. This means if you want to sling a big unit of Possessed (or similar) across the table T1 they won't be within range for the buff.
Not only that, the unit needs to be wholly within 6" of bile to be enhanced. Good luck doing that with 20+ models.
I’m pretty sure that it’s feasible to keep all of a Possessed horde within 6” of Bile before he buffs them, you just need to move him first so that you can be careful with their positioning, bear in mind it’s the Warptime that really gives them their reach
In fact, if he starts embedded in their unit, right near the front with one marine touching him and only a mm further forwards, he can roll a 1 to advance and the marine can roll a 6 and they’re still within 6”, the rest of the unit can then encircle and get ready to WT forwards
lindsay40k wrote: I’m pretty sure that it’s feasible to keep all of a Possessed horde within 6” of Bile before he buffs them, you just need to move him first so that you can be careful with their positioning, bear in mind it’s the Warptime that really gives them their reach
In fact, if he starts embedded in their unit, right near the front with one marine touching him and only a mm further forwards, he can roll a 1 to advance and the marine can roll a 6 and they’re still within 6”, the rest of the unit can then encircle and get ready to WT forwards
Also, a 6" bubble on a 1" base is a 13" diameter.
You can fit a lot of models into that bubble. Might make sense to have Bile behind the unit you want to buff, just advance him and wade into the middle.
However, you can still run him as not-warlord in another Legion if you want to, although of course he will not benefit from any of his Creations of Bile rules.
The detachment where he is in would need to be a HERETIC ASTARTES detachment, no legion trait for anyone. Or you spend 1CP for an aux support detachment.
One thing that I just realised which is a very big negative - Bile's Experimental Enhancements rule happens at the **end** of the movement phase. This means if you want to sling a big unit of Possessed (or similar) across the table T1 they won't be within range for the buff.
Not only that, the unit needs to be wholly within 6" of bile to be enhanced. Good luck doing that with 20+ models.
In short, bile is useless, dont bother with him.
I have no idea what you are reading because you are completely wrong. The rule is on pg. 76 and says "If Fabius Bile is your Warlord, units from your army can replace their <LEGION> keyword with CREATIONS OF BILE. Note that you cannot replace the <LEGION> keyword with CREATIONS OF BILE unless Fabius Bile is your Warlord." The CREATIONS OF BILE keyword is required for all of their buffs.
Furthermore, Fabius Bile's datasheet is not what prevents him from breaking keywords and it never has been. It is the "Shadowy Allies" rule from the CSM codex, which has remained unchanged. On pg. 76 from War of the Spider it explicitly refers to this rule to justify why Bile doesn't benefit from his own legion trait.
I have no idea what you are reading because you are completely wrong. The rule is on pg. 76 and says "If Fabius Bile is your Warlord, units from your army can replace their <LEGION> keyword with CREATIONS OF BILE. Note that you cannot replace the <LEGION> keyword with CREATIONS OF BILE unless Fabius Bile is your Warlord." The CREATIONS OF BILE keyword is required for all of their buffs.
If i want bile to enhance a unit of 20 AL possessed he doesnt need to be the warlord. What was asked is, if you run bile, does he need to be your warlord.
Furthermore, Fabius Bile's datasheet is not what prevents him from breaking keywords and it never has been. It is the "Shadowy Allies" rule from the CSM codex, which has remained unchanged. On pg. 76 from War of the Spider it explicitly refers to this rule to justify why Bile doesn't benefit from his own legion trait.
OK, I see what you mean. Yes, you can still use him as AL or another Legion. However, if you want to run a Creations of Bile army, he **must** be your warlord.
Regarding the other point, no problem, it is admittedly quite confusing.
Turning back to the question of whether it is possible to keep him in range of his buff targets - I think Lindsay and techsoldaten are right, it should be possible, and with warptime it doesn't matter too much if you have to slow down a little bit.
Which units do we think will be viable in a Creations of Bile list? Possessed are the obvious choice, DPs and Disco Lords both appreciate the trait and character buffing strat, Cultists like the enhancements but unfortunately get nothing from the trait. Dare I say it - but could terminators be something to look at? S5 and M6 are solid but the on demand T5 is what I think will really help them.
As "techsoldaten" has said, its very easy to put a 20 model unit in 6" range of FB.
One thing most of you have not realised,
they have to be within of FB´s Unit! He is a unit of 2 Models (2" seperated) -> big Space.
T’au retain 8ed OW. Warp Talons will remain a counter (gatekeeper?) for them and a number of niche units
They’re still going to be less useful in the broad stroke, with general OW disabled. Maybe they’ll get a (relative) points drop to reflect the lower general utility of their superpower?
I'm still wondering when we're going to be able to create our own custom warbands. I'm probably sticking with Iron Warriors and/or World Eaters at the moment, but I do want to be able to put together a Crimson Slaughter/Word Bearers/Brazen Beasts successor band.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I'm still wondering when we're going to be able to create our own custom warbands. I'm probably sticking with Iron Warriors and/or World Eaters at the moment, but I do want to be able to put together a Crimson Slaughter/Word Bearers/Brazen Beasts successor band.
Never forgetti customizability is only for loyalists.
Well atleast gw seems to think that it would Lead to another 3.5 dex disaster if not.
3.5 was only a "disaster" because it wasn't in line with the rest of the game. It's exactly the same scenario we're currently in with a bloody 6 volume codex plus campaign book additions for loyalists.
The game would be fantastic if everyone got that level of attention, detail and enthusiasm in their releases.
It has long been a problem that they don't design a game so much as make their little passion projects in isolation of each other and without an overarching concern for how it fits together.
I was really excited by the fact that the ectoplasma cannons are blast weapons since that makes them better than before, but considering that GW seems to be stacking penalty upon penalty upon anyone who fields units of more than five models, this improvement strikes me as kind of pointless now.
So with the new rule where all vehicles and monsters (I don't think we have any 'monsters' but vehicles we have a bunch of) all effectively gain the Steel Behemoth rule (can shoot weapons while in combat), does this open up the usage of any of our previously mediocre units?
Helbrutes and Dreads were already good, and now seem to be even better as shooty variants can still have a use even if risking tarpitting.
Land raiders perhaps?
The Flamestorm Predator from forgeworld was always a favourite of mine on paper (lots of gushing flames) but was easily countered by being tarpitted, but now it can melt the pits.
Defiler seems to have a pretty decent buff from it as well.
Just a thought. Points changes will matter of course.
Aye, vehicles of us are improved, but i feel like the coherency rule will throw a wrench at our melee capabilities.
I guess we also need more of the pts, but when tacs are now supposedly at 15 pts and scouts at 14, i honestly see rather black for our CSM:
Not to mention that cultists have become a massive liability imo due to their extremely nerfed capability.
not to mention we will see a distinct lack of HQ slots available and that is an issue imo for a lot of our strategies, not to mention that a lot of the smaller HQ now probably never will make the cut anymore, last but not least because of the distinct lack off mobility options.
If i want to include one LOS in my CSM army i have to use a super heavy aux detachment, which costs me 3CP, and the LOS doesnt get a legion trait. If a tsons, or a DG player wants to include magnus, or morty, they use a supreme command detachment, which costs 0CP, and they get legion traits. Is that correct ?
So.... Emperor's Children got some decent boosts in the new 9th Edition rules.
The Blastmaster now has the Blast keyword. Granting, Heavy D3 S8/-2AP/Dam D3 vs 0-5 model units, and Heavy 3 S8/-2AP/Dam D3 vs 6+ model units. Or Assault D6 S4/AP-1/Dam 1 vs 0-5 model units, Assault 3 S4/AP-1/Dam 1 vs 6-10+ model units, and Assault 6 S4/AP-1/Dam 1 vs 11+ model units. That's pretty good before even getting into stratagems like Endless Cacophony, Veterans of the Long War, or Excruciating Frequencies. So, I'm sure they'll go up in points. Then we have "Blast" on frag grenades which uniquely each Noise Marines can toss as they die. Sonic weapons still ignore cover, while hordes are even more dependent on cover. But we'll have to see how they interact with terrain penalties.
My only fear is the FAQ. Scarily a lot could change for Emperor's Children depending on what they do with the FAQ. It took 3 separate erratas , to explain how the Music of the Apocalypse rule even functions. The Emperor's Children's ability to take Noise Marines a troops also only appears in the FAQ. So, hopefully we don't have to wait long for an updated FAQ. Speaking of FAQs another potential loss is the Sonic Dreadnought. Which currently exists solely as Forge World Index FAQ creation, with no model support. I doubt they'll even go to Legends now that GW is writing Forge Worlds rules. The only way I see it coming back is if they release a plastic model in a Emperor's Children release....sigh.
Anyone see any other benefits or changes changes for Emperors Children?
With everything you mentioned I expect them to go up in points quite heftily. If tacs are 15ppm I can easily see noise Marines go up to 16 base plus 4 for Sonic blasters.
Is this Primaris bike HQ the one from the Bell of Lost Souls article? Is there more evidence than that? It seems unlikely as it says it is in the Indomitus box. If it is true it will annoy the crap out of me, as my custom Biker Lord was scrapped into legends status.
p5freak wrote: If i want to include one LOS in my CSM army i have to use a super heavy aux detachment, which costs me 3CP, and the LOS doesnt get a legion trait. If a tsons, or a DG player wants to include magnus, or morty, they use a supreme command detachment, which costs 0CP, and they get legion traits. Is that correct ?
i think so from the information we as of yet got?
Kinda unfair, but is fine in a way.
Starting to think about what happens to lists in 9th edition.
Of the 2 mainstays I play, the Black Legion gunline looks like it will survive intact. OTOH, the Daemon Primarch looks more complicated. Can anyone help me sort through this?
The Supreme Command Detachment (SCD) has changed, there's no single detachment for loading up on HQs. You'd want to take the SCD to get the CP benefit for the Battalion, but it doesn't leave any room for the TS characters. The only way I could get Ahriman and his guys into a list would be a Brigade.
If you want to run Morty and Ahriman in a list, you need to take a SCD and a Auxillary or 2 Auxillaries. If I'm sticking with 2 detachments, that means I'd need 2 just for a pair of characters. I'd have to choose between going Nurgle or TSons with the remaining one.
Am I missing something? Otherwise it looks like this list goes away.
Lord Blackscale wrote: Is this Primaris bike HQ the one from the Bell of Lost Souls article? Is there more evidence than that? It seems unlikely as it says it is in the Indomitus box. If it is true it will annoy the crap out of me, as my custom Biker Lord was scrapped into legends status.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Erm, is it just me, or did 9th edition get even shootier...
Melee didn't seem to get any buffs much. Or did I miss something...
No, you're right. Nerfs to charging, stupid coherencey rules, fallback still the same, and a stratagem to get out of tripointing. Melee is still down, shooting is still up.
Yeah, that cap on modifiers to hit and wound hurts us bad. Our entire codex is based on stacking buffs on units that are generally ineffective without them. We need a new codex, yesterday.
Chaos is in very bad shape with the new detachment rules. No dedicated HQ spam detachment means a lot of the usual high damage combos are gone. No more triple discolord, no more Ahriman & friends, etc
slave.entity wrote: Chaos is in very bad shape with the new detachment rules. No dedicated HQ spam detachment means a lot of the usual high damage combos are gone. No more triple discolord, no more Ahriman & friends, etc
Considering that it were hq that kept us in it and were the combo enablers for a combo heavy Designed faction, i'd say it Looks Like the Card house is falling apart, not yet on fire but certainly falling apart..
techsoldaten wrote: Starting to think about what happens to lists in 9th edition.
Of the 2 mainstays I play, the Black Legion gunline looks like it will survive intact. OTOH, the Daemon Primarch looks more complicated. Can anyone help me sort through this?
The Supreme Command Detachment (SCD) has changed, there's no single detachment for loading up on HQs. You'd want to take the SCD to get the CP benefit for the Battalion, but it doesn't leave any room for the TS characters. The only way I could get Ahriman and his guys into a list would be a Brigade.
If you want to run Morty and Ahriman in a list, you need to take a SCD and a Auxillary or 2 Auxillaries. If I'm sticking with 2 detachments, that means I'd need 2 just for a pair of characters. I'd have to choose between going Nurgle or TSons with the remaining one.
Am I missing something? Otherwise it looks like this list goes away.
For better or worse this is specifically the kind of list they were trying to kill with the new detachment rules. You'd need to drop the Nurgle stuff if you want the Tzeentch HQ's, which would mean taking the weaker KSons troops.
KSons troops still looking pretty good with those PA buffs, but yeah they can’t serve the role of PBs.
I’m glad I’m not alone in worrying how CSM is gonna function in 9th. Seemed like the main way to compensate for a weak codex was PA-buffed soup, especially since each Legion got only a small number of great strats, so to see results you needed multiple of them. Now bringing that kind of soup list leaves you without enough CP to use the strats you were souping for. Meanwhile, mono-legion suffers from heavy limits to HQs, which were crucial to bringing CSM units to the same level as other midtier factions.
Hate to be doom & gloom but it does seem like CSM needs a hand here.
Pomguo wrote: KSons troops still looking pretty good with those PA buffs, but yeah they can’t serve the role of PBs.
I’m glad I’m not alone in worrying how CSM is gonna function in 9th. Seemed like the main way to compensate for a weak codex was PA-buffed soup, especially since each Legion got only a small number of great strats, so to see results you needed multiple of them. Now bringing that kind of soup list leaves you without enough CP to use the strats you were souping for. Meanwhile, mono-legion suffers from heavy limits to HQs, which were crucial to bringing CSM units to the same level as other midtier factions.
Hate to be doom & gloom but it does seem like CSM needs a hand here.
Yeah Chaos Soup is looking like it’s pretty well DOA in 9th. All of the Possessed Bomb variants took three detachments not only for the obligatory CP batteries, but because you needed three detachments to put together the necessary synergies to make the list tick (not to mention the cap on to hit modifiers which basically killed it anyway). Looks like we’ll be waiting for at least the Daemons codex (which fingers crossed is soon), but also the CSM codex to come out before we can concoct a list that can compete with SM, Eldar or Tau.
Seems like daemon engine heavy armies would be the way to go for CSM as that got buffed the most. However, I just don't know ... In a meta in 8th ed where even knights can be killed easily each turn, how resilient would a daemon engine army be...
Another CSM army that got buffed would be Abaddon lists, because I am pretty sure Abby would be considered a supreme commander. (It would be a travesty if he isn't), So, we can probably have Abby in a supreme command detachment and get a batallion for free. And Abby is good for dominating the midfield because he is such a boss in melee.
However, we still need other stuff to contest the midboard along with Abby. He will get shot off the board trying to go it alone. The question is what ...
Arachnofiend wrote:For better or worse this is specifically the kind of list they were trying to kill with the new detachment rules. You'd need to drop the Nurgle stuff if you want the Tzeentch HQ's, which would mean taking the weaker KSons troops.
Yeah, figuring that out now.
There's things I could do with Tzaangor, but the point of the Nurgle detachment was holding objectives while Daemon Princes harass opponents in their backlines.
Don't think I'm going to focus on this much for now. Going to miss the Daemon Princes going to work.
Eldenfirefly wrote:Another CSM army that got buffed would be Abaddon lists, because I am pretty sure Abby would be considered a supreme commander. (It would be a travesty if he isn't), So, we can probably have Abby in a supreme command detachment and get a batallion for free. And Abby is good for dominating the midfield because he is such a boss in melee.
However, we still need other stuff to contest the midboard along with Abby. He will get shot off the board trying to go it alone. The question is what ...
Looks like I'll start 9th with my Black Legion Gunline. Abaddon standing back to buff a max-lascannon army.
I've been trying to get away from long-range shooting lists for a while. Not seeing anything better atm.
And it really comes down to changes in the Supreme Command Detachment, didn't know much I depended on it. Other lists are borked too.
Pomguo wrote:KSons troops still looking pretty good with those PA buffs, but yeah they can’t serve the role of PBs.
I’m glad I’m not alone in worrying how CSM is gonna function in 9th. Seemed like the main way to compensate for a weak codex was PA-buffed soup, especially since each Legion got only a small number of great strats, so to see results you needed multiple of them. Now bringing that kind of soup list leaves you without enough CP to use the strats you were souping for. Meanwhile, mono-legion suffers from heavy limits to HQs, which were crucial to bringing CSM units to the same level as other midtier factions.
Hate to be doom & gloom but it does seem like CSM needs a hand here.
Transition is going to be tough. Not sure how much we need in terms of rules support.
Way I see it, current Codex concentrates a lot of value in high-power HQs who buff mediocre units. New rules around detachments constrict our ability to make use of more than a few HQs at any one time. While we have many units with good rules, we never see the benefit from most of them at any one time. Now we get penalized on CPs for trying to bring too much, that's going to be hard.
Keeping an open mind about new Forgeworld rules, but I see us ending up with a lot of single Brigade lists that emphasize one or two styles of fighting. Maybe with a Daemon detachment alongside.
The one thing I don't see happening for Chaos: psychic heavy lists outside of KSons. We're just not going to have the space for these units unless they start pushing Sorcerers into elite slots.
techsoldaten wrote: Starting to think about what happens to lists in 9th edition.
Of the 2 mainstays I play, the Black Legion gunline looks like it will survive intact. OTOH, the Daemon Primarch looks more complicated. Can anyone help me sort through this?
The Supreme Command Detachment (SCD) has changed, there's no single detachment for loading up on HQs. You'd want to take the SCD to get the CP benefit for the Battalion, but it doesn't leave any room for the TS characters. The only way I could get Ahriman and his guys into a list would be a Brigade.
If you want to run Morty and Ahriman in a list, you need to take a SCD and a Auxillary or 2 Auxillaries. If I'm sticking with 2 detachments, that means I'd need 2 just for a pair of characters. I'd have to choose between going Nurgle or TSons with the remaining one.
Am I missing something? Otherwise it looks like this list goes away.
thank God is going away...welcome back mono detachements (almost) list
Eldenfirefly wrote: Seems like daemon engine heavy armies would be the way to go for CSM as that got buffed the most. However, I just don't know ... In a meta in 8th ed where even knights can be killed easily each turn, how resilient would a daemon engine army be...
Another CSM army that got buffed would be Abaddon lists, because I am pretty sure Abby would be considered a supreme commander. (It would be a travesty if he isn't), So, we can probably have Abby in a supreme command detachment and get a batallion for free. And Abby is good for dominating the midfield because he is such a boss in melee.
However, we still need other stuff to contest the midboard along with Abby. He will get shot off the board trying to go it alone. The question is what ...
i guess the biggest advantage of a daemoneengine list is, that it can ignore about a 3rd of incoming fire due to the 5++.
However, the defieler will get a hike because BC.
Forgefiend might also get a hike because the extoplasma cannons are blast quite likely.
Leaving us with maulerfiends and venomcrawlers core wise.
However, then the next issue shows up, HQ support. the best daemonengine we had period so far was the Lord discordant and to say he is kinda disfunctional with ranged daemonengines is fair i think.
Considering this, we might need to tweak daemonengine lists to hybrid / cqc single model combat style monster mash.
However, it all depends how the prices stack up. The bs 4+ still hurts all daemonengines (except to the decimator but that thing has other issues due to beeing even more flimsy)
Yeah, loss of Supreme Command detachment and CP overheads on spearheads are going to cost us. We already ran Daemonic engine jamborees on a CP deficit, with Soulforged Pack and an extra Warlord Trait costing 2CP, now it’ll be a net 4CP to add them to the army if you’ve already took a DP, Sorc, and MoP - and that’s before we even get onto Daemonkin
Triple LD is still doable, I guess, with three Cultist units?
It’s smaller games I’m starting to think about. Patrol vs Battalion. Interesting.
Although leftover 8th sentiment makes it hard to see at times, Patrols do seem really good for armies that don’t want to over-invest in the troop slot. Just at 2k points the 2xHS limit does hurt.
It's definitely going to be interesting. We need to see the points changes and the first FAQ before we start going crazy though.
On a side note I got a pair of Relic Contemptor Dreads for my Alpha Legion and I started to do Soulburners but am hesitant to do that until the Forge World stuff comes out.
Starting to think that I might be better off giving them twin Lascannons with the dreadfist and just calling them Hellbrutes.
Although leftover 8th sentiment makes it hard to see at times, Patrols do seem really good for armies that don’t want to over-invest in the troop slot. Just at 2k points the 2xHS limit does hurt.
Possible to get a short summary for those of us who are not subscribers?
List design is going to be a challenge for a while, a lot of people are talking about Patrol detachments but I'm not bought in. 3 squads of 4ppm Cultists are cheaper than most HQ options, which are mandatory for each extra detachment.
I keep looking at the Brigade and thinking it's a good thing. I can see what I would take for Heavy Support, HQs and Elites, there's an argument to be made for filling it out with Bikers and Cultists.
Regular CSM going to 15pp would make them more unplayable than they already are. Cultists increasing in price by 50% is also a huge nerf, they're already strictly inferior to their guard equivalent and not benefiting from Legion traits is already a huge blow.
All the changes going into 9th practically make CSM as a whole almost unplayable. We need an intercessor equivalent or something...
I read that melta guns and combi meltas are now 10 points each. That actually might make them interesting again. 2 5 man squads in a Rhino with their champions can rock 4 melta guns for just 40 points more.
Disembark from a Rhino 3 inch, move advance 6+ d6, then shoot 12 inches range.
Modifiers to hit can't get worse than -1, So, stack on all the negative to hit modifiers and advance move because it is capped at -1 anyway.
There are some things that are in berserker's favor and some things that are not, within the new edition. The ability to engage in close combat seems to be a very important part of the game now, and that favors berserkers. But on the flip side early indications are that this edition will reward defensive play much more than aggression. The days of trying to run berserkers into your opponents backline and do damage are probably over. BUT they will be great at counter charging or clearing and objective mid board.
I think small zerker squads in rhinos or terrax might have a place in 9th. I might try 2x5 man squads in a rhino and see what happens.
Not Online!!! wrote:Cultists are verified at 6, tacs at 15.
Not saying that that wouldn't work but
Is that a rumor or confirmed by GW?
Would drive me nuts if Cultists cost more than Guardsmen. If you took 3 to fill out a Battalion, that's 60 more points than you would have been spending.
lindsay40k wrote:With the multiple changes to charges, Baleful Icon is looking interesting, especially in conjunction with Flamer-heavy units
If you want to charge a flame predator, Spartan / HH Land Raider with Flamers, flame Defiler, you really can’t reliably do it from over 9”
Not a bad synergy when the DA’s casting an invuln on said units
Changes to Overwatch irk me.
Those flame units would reliably kill a few models coming in on the charge. Now they have to pay CP for the opportunity.
I get the benefit of Baleful Icon and Illusory Supplication, just seems like we lost one of the reasons to take flamers.
Spartan089 wrote:Regular CSM going to 15pp would make them more unplayable than they already are. Cultists increasing in price by 50% is also a huge nerf, they're already strictly inferior to their guard equivalent and not benefiting from Legion traits is already a huge blow.
All the changes going into 9th practically make CSM as a whole almost unplayable. We need an intercessor equivalent or something...
There's that argument CSMs with Chaincannons provide more versatility and better overall offense than Intercessors.
But don't Intercessors now have an option to take Chainswords? Indominus and Primaris really confuse me, I don't always know what separates the units.
15ppm CSMs v 19ppm Intercessors with Chainswords would be a mismatch.
Reivax26 wrote:I am hoping that Khorne Berserkers become more viable in this next edition. Any chance of that happening?
Not with the new multicharge rules. Berzerkers will have a massive amount of overkill.
When you declare a charge against 2 targets, it fails unless you can reach both of them. Let's say there's 2 units of Intercessors, one at 3" and one at 6". You roll a 5, you don't get to charge either.
The only play for Berzerkers will be very conservative, making sure you get in on the closest unit. So a 5-man squad will have 40 attacks against, say, 5 Primaris Marines. Doesn't sound very efficient.
Is there anything stopping you from taking bile in a patrol detachment and giving +1 toughness or attack to a 20-man squad of plague Marines or rubrics in your alpha legion detachment?
20 T6 pm with a built-in -1 to hit and the ability to deep strike onto an objective turn 1 sounds pretty yummy in ninth edition.
And obviously they won't be t6 on turn 1 due to the way his ability works, but it's very doable by turn 2.
@techsoldaten, no intercissors and Cultists have been officially confirmed. 20 respectively 6, which has spawned some rather interesting threads allready.
Also, all off 8th you paid more for R&H equivalent to culitsts (but worse) so don't expect too much to change in that regard.
Further the leak for SM was rather complete so i don't have high hopes for that.
Not Online!!! wrote: @techsoldaten, no intercissors and Cultists have been officially confirmed. 20 respectively 6, which has spawned some rather interesting threads allready.
Also, all off 8th you paid more for R&H equivalent to culitsts (but worse) so don't expect too much to change in that regard.
Further the leak for SM was rather complete so i don't have high hopes for that.
Thank you for the heads up, found the article.
So....
For 20ppm: you can get an Intercessor with 2 wounds, 30" range, AP-1 gun
For 15ppm: you can get a CSM with 1 wound, 24" range, AP0 gun
Would like to say something highly sarcastic, concerned it would be taken seriously.
We need to see all the points changes, but damn, unless Repulsors and Redemptors are 3x the cost of CSM Predators and Helbrutes, I'd say we've hit a crisis point.
Btw, Techsoldaton, based on the marine leak, a infantry lascannon only cost 15 points, its a pretty big buff to your lascannon spam list.
I am not sure if that kind of list would survive 9th ed though, because it seems like 8th ed is about pushing into the mid board and holding the objectives there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, its based on the Marine points leak right? It is possible CSM might be 1 point cheaper... One can only hope at this point.
There's no guarantee that tacs and CSM will cost the same. Even from an economic perspective, GW wants to move those new CSM models and they want to squat non-primaris marines.
about point increas...did you understand 9th will be a completely different edition? they want faster play, less models on table , something like was 4ht 5th edition, forget the 8th and focus on the completely different game 9th will be, farewell 150 cultists list that made you play ,if you are lucky ,3 rounds, farewell 180 orks farewell 90/120 Pb's.
lindsay40k wrote:With the multiple changes to charges, Baleful Icon is looking interesting, especially in conjunction with Flamer-heavy units
If you want to charge a flame predator, Spartan / HH Land Raider with Flamers, flame Defiler, you really can’t reliably do it from over 9”
Not a bad synergy when the DA’s casting an invuln on said units
Changes to Overwatch irk me.
Those flame units would reliably kill a few models coming in on the charge. Now they have to pay CP for the opportunity.
I get the benefit of Baleful Icon and Illusory Supplication, just seems like we lost one of the reasons to take flamers.
Yeah, that’s why I only mentioned vehicles and left Flamer chosen off the list. A bunch of shooty fighty vehicles with 5++, Flamers, and a -2 to be charged might well be a formidable midfield castle, and they don’t always necessarily need to overwatch to get to use their flames - but they are more likely to have the opportunity to do so
blackmage wrote: about point increas...did you understand 9th will be a completely different edition? they want faster play, less models on table , something like was 4ht 5th edition, forget the 8th and focus on the completely different game 9th will be, farewell 150 cultists list that made you play ,if you are lucky ,3 rounds, farewell 180 orks farewell 90/120 Pb's.
you can believe that, but what we've seen sofar that statement is not true, and further, considering how much content get's carried over, including vigilus and PA and supplements aswell as dexes for most factions, i say your assumptions are too optimistic.
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Eldenfirefly wrote: Btw, Techsoldaton, based on the marine leak, a infantry lascannon only cost 15 points, its a pretty big buff to your lascannon spam list.
I am not sure if that kind of list would survive 9th ed though, because it seems like 8th ed is about pushing into the mid board and holding the objectives there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, its based on the Marine points leak right? It is possible CSM might be 1 point cheaper... One can only hope at this point.
i don't see gw pricing CSM tacs at the price of scouts, which are incidentally 1 pts cheaper in said leak.
Based on the Space Marine leak, Terminators were 23ppm and combi-bolters were 3ppm. Is there a case for Terminators being a cost-effective shooting unit with moderate melee ability for us in 9th?
Possibly. CSM can have relatively cheap terminators. And I think terminators got a boost in 9th ed. We shall have to see. I personally think I won't be using troops much other than the minimum required for the detachment I am running.
If I really want to fight the midboard, I will plan on using CSM elites like our cult troops, or possessed or terminators. Normal CSM troops just won't get it anymore. Will probably have those behind the elites or in the backlines performing actions.
I will throw this out here though. Since infantry lascannons only cost 15 points. a Havoc squad for 4 lascannons have gone down quite abit. Even if Havocs have seen a points increase, I think a Lascannon Havocs squad overall still saw a points reduction because I am quite sure Havocs didn't go up by 10 points per model. (more likely Havocs will be 15 points per model). So, a lascannon Havoc squad will only cost 135 points.
I am thinking a black legion army with Abaddon as the centre of the army, havocs for long range, and mass terminators to fight for the midboard, minimum troop CSM at the back performing actions sounds ok. 30 terminators should be quite hard to shift off the midboard. One interesting thing about this is that Black legion terminators can advance and still shoot their combi bolters, and Abbadon will increase their accuracy. So, a black legion terminator core supported by Abaddon can move up the board deceptively fast if they wish while still being able to shoot quite well. And Abaddon will be a boss in the midst of such a steel core of terminators. And its extremely fluffy too for black legion.
And I will really look more closely at melta guns now. At 10 points, putting them on a bike squad makes them very interesting against vehicles. Because bikes can zoom up the board, around the sides of obscuring terrain and hit the vehicles from the sides as they are hiding behind obscuring terrain. And at 10 points per meltagun, even if the bike squads get killed, its not going to be a big loss. And while they are on the board, they will threaten vehicles, and also can go for uncontested or purely defended objectives.
I just realised that a battalion in 9th ed can have up to 6 elite units. That's a lot!
blackmage wrote: about point increas...did you understand 9th will be a completely different edition? they want faster play, less models on table , something like was 4ht 5th edition, forget the 8th and focus on the completely different game 9th will be, farewell 150 cultists list that made you play ,if you are lucky ,3 rounds, farewell 180 orks farewell 90/120 Pb's.
you can believe that, but what we've seen sofar that statement is not true, and further, considering how much content get's carried over, including vigilus and PA and supplements aswell as dexes for most factions, i say your assumptions are too optimistic.
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Eldenfirefly wrote: Btw, Techsoldaton, based on the marine leak, a infantry lascannon only cost 15 points, its a pretty big buff to your lascannon spam list.
I am not sure if that kind of list would survive 9th ed though, because it seems like 8th ed is about pushing into the mid board and holding the objectives there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: we will see, im pretty sure, we are alreday testing with new rules Also, its based on the Marine points leak right? It is possible CSM might be 1 point cheaper... One can only hope at this point.
i don't see gw pricing CSM tacs at the price of scouts, which are incidentally 1 pts cheaper in said leak.
Idk, but i still am not really happy about it.
we will see but im prettu sure what i m talking about. If a cultist cost 6 points how can you ever believe you can play the same amount of them? with veichles improving why play 3000 cultists?
It’s been stated that points values in general are going up, you can’t judge the viability of a unit’s new points price by the old context. They’re making it easier to pick smaller games and balance cheaper units, and if you want an 8ed 2k scale game then just play like a 2.5 or 3k game
I remember when various horde units cost like 3ppm and wargear options cost a half point. Much prefer larger round numbers where a single point tweak won’t make something unviable or broken
Eldenfirefly wrote:Btw, Techsoldaton, based on the marine leak, a infantry lascannon only cost 15 points, its a pretty big buff to your lascannon spam list.
I am not sure if that kind of list would survive 9th ed though, because it seems like 8th ed is about pushing into the mid board and holding the objectives there.
Thanks for the heads up. That would be cost 230 points less than what I'm paying now - big difference!
lindsay40k wrote:Yeah, that’s why I only mentioned vehicles and left Flamer chosen off the list. A bunch of shooty fighty vehicles with 5++, Flamers, and a -2 to be charged might well be a formidable midfield castle, and they don’t always necessarily need to overwatch to get to use their flames - but they are more likely to have the opportunity to do so
And fluffy to boot. I get the sense flamer tanks are going to be a thing in 9th edition.
Eldenfirefly wrote:I am thinking a black legion army with Abaddon as the centre of the army, havocs for long range, and mass terminators to fight for the midboard, minimum troop CSM at the back performing actions sounds ok. 30 terminators should be quite hard to shift off the midboard. One interesting thing about this is that Black legion terminators can advance and still shoot their combi bolters, and Abbadon will increase their accuracy. So, a black legion terminator core supported by Abaddon can move up the board deceptively fast if they wish while still being able to shoot quite well. And Abaddon will be a boss in the midst of such a steel core of terminators. And its extremely fluffy too for black legion.
And I will really look more closely at melta guns now. At 10 points, putting them on a bike squad makes them very interesting against vehicles. Because bikes can zoom up the board, around the sides of obscuring terrain and hit the vehicles from the sides as they are hiding behind obscuring terrain. And at 10 points per meltagun, even if the bike squads get killed, its not going to be a big loss. And while they are on the board, they will threaten vehicles, and also can go for uncontested or purely defended objectives.
Where are you getting the points from? I'm playing catch up.
Might be a good idea to think about Raptors. With Secondaries, initial placement might be more important than higher T.
Starting to notice there are a lot of snipers. Concerned about Abaddon v 3 Vindicare lists, which I keep reading about.
Not Online!!! wrote:Way to Miss the point blackmage, which was that cultists are going to suck and csm even worse.
Not all CSM are going to suck. Games will be more strategic.
Black Legion have some advantages going into 9th. World Killers allows us to deny Objectives, Tip of the Spear will be important for non-CL deep strikers, Council of Traitors lets us improve HQs (which is important b/c of change to Supreme Command Detachment.) Trophies of Slaughter will now mess up units that charge your Warlord based on the need to keep unit coherency. If you place your HQ properly, you could kill half a unit through attrition. Haarken might actually be useful.
Black Legion could almost just play the Secondaries and win games. Might not destroy a lot or have many models left at the end, but they can deny an opponent in a lot of ways.
World Eaters will have it hard, but I think there's a place for a mechanized list with MSU in flamer Rhinos. Need to see the points.
I am just wondering if the counter meta is to have less vehicles since many lists will be geared up for vehicle killing. Hence, my suggestion to go bikes, terminators, elites and havocs, and csm in an Abby army. So, we present zero vehicles as a sort of counter meta list.
I am looking at a batallion and like what tabletop titans said, the problem is running out of slots. There are only 3 heavy slots and 3 havoc squads are cheap. Fast attack can be bikes. So that leave the 6 elite slots. (It does not matter what we fill in the 3 normal slots as CSM or cultists aren't gonna be fantastic no matter what).
Our bread and butter is likely to be our elite slots. we can go ham with 6 of those slots. This assumes we go with only one batallion so that we maximise our CP. Having tons of CP is going to be a big change for us.
Techsoldaton, have you seen those leaf blower ad mech lists? Honestly, I think even lascannon spam will have problems against those lists. Ad mech is super shooty. And the issue with lascannon spam is that it wants to hang back and shoot for the first two turns. 9th edition is about objectives.
I saw a game on tabletop titans of ad mech vs Harlequens. The ad mech were brutal in their shooting turn 1. But surprisingly, they lost the game due to objectives. And this was despite pushing up the board and taking a center middle objective. It was kind of an eye opener because despite terrible rolling at the start for the Harlequen player and devastating shooting from Ad mech on turn 1, the Harlequen player still managed to turn it around and win on objectves
BTW, we can put a chosen squad decked out in plasma guns or melta guns into strategic reserve and "deep strike" them in on turn 2 or turn 3. 6 melta gun shots or 12 plasma guns shots into the face of any unit is going to hurt. Its a lot cheaper than deep striking in a tricked out plasma gun termi squad. The termi squads are better placed going all combi bolters, clearing infantry and contesting the midfield.
Can any of you Black Legion players shed some light on how you go about running them? I'm piqued by the concept of a BL list that just takes a smorgasbord of stuff from the army book.
Everyone is still feeling their way around because of all the changes in 9th edition. I do feel that black legion focus less on daemon engines and more on elite bodies though. If you want to do daemon engine, better served going iron warriors.
Digressing from Black Legion for a second, I'm wondering if Night Lords best tactic would be denying objectives. With our buffs for deep striking units we could clear off anything holding an objective pretty well. Warp talons with the right strategems (Vicious Descent works great) can tear through most troops pretty easily, as can raptors, and since they have the fly keyword they can move to other targets pretty quickly after gutting the first. Combi-plasma terminators with "Prey On The Weak" can burn down pretty much anything that isn't a LOW comfortably, especially if you drop a Chaos Lord in with them. Put them on an objective and they're pretty hard to dig out with "In Midnight Clad" on them. Go for secondaries that concentrate on killing and add some heavy hitters that my opponent can't ignore (fw dreads, tanks) and I think I may have a plan. Just need to know points costs to see if it's feasible.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Digressing from Black Legion for a second, I'm wondering if Night Lords best tactic would be denying objectives. With our buffs for deep striking units we could clear off anything holding an objective pretty well. Warp talons with the right strategems (Vicious Descent works great) can tear through most troops pretty easily, as can raptors, and since they have the fly keyword they can move to other targets pretty quickly after gutting the first. Combi-plasma terminators with "Prey On The Weak" can burn down pretty much anything that isn't a LOW comfortably, especially if you drop a Chaos Lord in with them. Put them on an objective and they're pretty hard to dig out with "In Midnight Clad" on them. Go for secondaries that concentrate on killing and add some heavy hitters that my opponent can't ignore (fw dreads, tanks) and I think I may have a plan. Just need to know points costs to see if it's feasible.
Go for it by all means. Then share with us. I will note one thing though, 9th ed is about midfield objectives. And because you count holding your objectives at the start of your turn. This means that you need to hold an objective through your opponents turn. It isn't enough to charge in and clear your opponent off the objective. After that, you need to hold on to it. Everything hits hard in 9th ed (they already do in 8th ed). So, clearing an objective is only the first part of the problem. Its holding it until the start of your next turn that is the challenge.
So, my initial gut feel is that raptors and warptalons are still marine stats and armor. In the world of 40k today, with primaris on the field, marine stats don't really have that much holding power, so to speak.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Digressing from Black Legion for a second, I'm wondering if Night Lords best tactic would be denying objectives. With our buffs for deep striking units we could clear off anything holding an objective pretty well. Warp talons with the right strategems (Vicious Descent works great) can tear through most troops pretty easily, as can raptors, and since they have the fly keyword they can move to other targets pretty quickly after gutting the first. Combi-plasma terminators with "Prey On The Weak" can burn down pretty much anything that isn't a LOW comfortably, especially if you drop a Chaos Lord in with them. Put them on an objective and they're pretty hard to dig out with "In Midnight Clad" on them. Go for secondaries that concentrate on killing and add some heavy hitters that my opponent can't ignore (fw dreads, tanks) and I think I may have a plan. Just need to know points costs to see if it's feasible.
Go for it by all means. Then share with us. I will note one thing though, 9th ed is about midfield objectives. And because you count holding your objectives at the start of your turn. This means that you need to hold an objective through your opponents turn. It isn't enough to charge in and clear your opponent off the objective. After that, you need to hold on to it. Everything hits hard in 9th ed (they already do in 8th ed). So, clearing an objective is only the first part of the problem. Its holding it until the start of your next turn that is the challenge.
So, my initial gut feel is that raptors and warptalons are still marine stats and armor. In the world of 40k today, with primaris on the field, marine stats don't really have that much holding power, so to speak.
I've considered that, but it's worth a try. Do you have you have any ideas for the Eighth Legion? And I did mention terminators as well.
By the way, I saw mention of flamer tanks. Does CSM even have such a thing as a flamer tank? Or are you guys talking about forgeworld ?
From what I know, our predators nor Land raiders can't have a flamer sponson loadout. And I won't exactly consider a Rhino with a combi flamer as a flamer tank... lol
Eldenfirefly wrote: By the way, I saw mention of flamer tanks. Does CSM even have such a thing as a flamer tank? Or are you guys talking about forgeworld ?
From what I know, our predators nor Land raiders can't have a flamer sponson loadout. And I won't exactly consider a Rhino with a combi flamer as a flamer tank... lol
Forgeworld, yeah. The Hellforged Predator can take flamers.
I think we just won't be able to match what imperium brings to the table in terms of flame tanks. Sisters of battle, Astra Militarium and Blood angels all have strong flamer tanks. I bet what's in Forgeworld will be overcosted,
I am trying to think of what makes CSM distinct from marines. We have units like Demon princes, Oliberators, Daemon Engines and Lord Discordants, possessed, cult troops and warp talons. We also have different psychic spells. So, that's our difference from normal marines (leaving aside we don't have primaris). Oh, and our Havocs are arguably slightly better than Devastators.
Other than that, everything we have, from predator tanks to hellbrutes, Marines also have, and they arguably have better. At the most, we go for cheap. (in the rare case like the combi bolter terminator squad with chain axe). So, we either bank on what marines simply do not have, so daemon engines theme. or if we are going for cheap, we need to have more units and models than they do, because our units will be inferior.
This kind of goes against the logic of spending too many points on characters. Because if all the points we saved from getting cheaper but inferior troops are then spent on expensive characters... I am not sure if the trade off will be a good one because our characters will then have to do over time to make up for our inferior units. Either that, or we will have to spam command points just to raise them to an equal performance as equivalent marine units.
We don't know what daemon engines are going to be costed, and even in 8th ed, its not like daemon engine lists were a super strong list. So, while its super fluffy, I think until we see the points for it, we can't draw much conclusions yet.
Based on the marine leaks, we already have a good idea what our CSM equivalent will be costed like. So, then its about seeing how we can pull out good performances from units which pound for pound , are likely to be inferior than their loyalist counterparts.
I remember one tabletop titans video talking about how s very competitive marine list had 60 assault intercessors flooding the mid board as a core component. They said they matched it up against the shootiest filth they could field and it still did great because it just wasn't possible to kill off so many intercessors. And it didn't matter how many you killed, if at the end of the day, they dominated the midboard and won on objectives.
So, this made me wonder how we can do that. Our bikes are inferior to loyalist bikes (like white scars or dark angles or primaris bikes) and not as mobile as eldar bikes. Our terminators are cheaper but not as hardy as storm shield equipped termis or grey knight terminators. So, we have to acknowledge they are cheaper but weaker and play on that. So we can field more of them. Along this train of thought, I am actually wondering if going character lite so that we can maximise the points on units might be a way to overwelm the opponent in bodies. Note that I am not suggesting going horde. 30 terminators is not a horde. 60 possesseed is not a horde either, but both are going to be able to contest and try and dominate the mid field.
Not Online!!! wrote: Way to Miss the point blackmage, which was that cultists are going to suck and csm even worse.
way to miss im saying 9th edition will be NOT the horde edition , that's what i meant, what sucks and what not is hard to predict right now
Irrelevant contexutalised with marine pts, even assuming we get away with a blue eye and our CSM units just get to 13ppm it looks bad in regards to our troop units.
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Eldarain wrote: What about Spawn? Seems like one of our best points to wound options without an enormous footprint and won't trigger Blast.
Depends on spawn pricing.
At 25 pts they got worth it, the equiv assuming the general 10-20% hike would be at most 30 pts for one. So long that is the case, spawn will remain relatively worht it.
The question is though, who wants them over say Raptors or Talons or bikers.
I guess if people want to field a brigade they'd make good fillers, and nice little distraction models but beyond that i don't know.
Granted they don't suffer from coherency as much.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I think we just won't be able to match what imperium brings to the table in terms of flame tanks. Sisters of battle, Astra Militarium and Blood angels all have strong flamer tanks. I bet what's in Forgeworld will be overcosted,
Perhaps, but the basic hellforged predator chassis is currently the same points as the standard predator, the difference will come down to the price on the weapons, which should be the same as loyalists. It also has some advantages depending on how much it changes in the new fw books: it gets D3 extra attacks on the charge, Machine Malifica means it can regain wounds in cc, and finally it is an elites choice instead of heavy support, a battalion gives more elites slots than heavy support so that would leave the heavy support slots open.
This assumes most rules go unchanged, which we don't know yet. I wonder if Machine Malifica will survive the fw reboot.
With all of the changes going on with cover, I wonder how this will affect the Iron Warrior's legion trait of ignoring cover. Having them just flat ignore it outright would be OP, but I think that they should have at least some edge in this category.
So, I have been watching quite a few 9th ed games on tabletop titans and tabletop tactics (both are great channels). The smaller tables and the main mission really do affect shooty armies. You simply can't just sit there in a castle and shoot.
Let me give one example. One game of necrons vs AM that I watched. The AM had units deployed literally at the edge of the table. He can't deploy them any further back than he did.
Yet, by turn 2, necrons units were in his lines. And by turn 3, some of his key tank commanders were stuck and wrapped in combat. And this was despite him having an amazing 1st turn where he shot 3 doomsday arks off the board, effectively destroying all of the Necron anti tank capability.
The other thing is missions. The primary mission that doesn't change no mater what secondaries you pick, is about holding objectives, and holding more objectives. And those primary missions are worth 45 points maxed. Midboard objectives are the most fiercely contested. As a shooty army, if you stay back in a shooty castle, you will get very little (if any) of the primary mission points.
You could shoot your opponent off the board from your shooty castle, but if that happens by turn 4, or 5, you have already lost the game. Because your opponent could have racked up 30 to 45 primary mission points while you got 0 to 10 even by the time you shot him to pieces. And these primary mission points start accruing from turn 2 onwards. Theoratically, all your opponent needs is 3 good turns (turn 2,3,4) of dominating the objectives, and he would have maxed the 45 points. Meanwhile, say you shoot him off the table on turn 5. Its too late for you to then charge forward and flood into those objectives because you only score them at the start of your turn. In fact, let's say you shoot your opponent off the board on turn 4 (which is no trifle feat). AND you flood into the objectives on turn 4. You will still only then score one round of primary objectives at the start of your turn 5. (and that's just 15 points).
So, shooty armies cannot aim to only sit back and shoot. You will not win 9th edition games like that. Even shooty armies will need to have units that can go forward and contest/dominate objectives. The guard player I watched had tons of chimera tanks filled with guardsmen in them, plus hellhounds too and these would charge forward to try and take objectives.
The thing is, once you start to do all those things, your shooty army automatically becomes less deadly shooting wise. Still good, but just not leafblower type of good anymore. Because the kind of stuff that can move forward and take objectives are not shooty stuff. And btw, a bunch of ten guardsmen cannot hold an objective till the start of your next turn, they are simply too fragile. You need a combination of maybe a tank plus a bunch of guardsmen to do the trick. And when you consider the points, then having a hellhound plus 10 guardsmen on an objective or a Chimera plus ten guardsmen is no longer as cheap as having just ten guardsmen sitting on an objective.
In another game I watched, Admech player was doing super good shooting and pushed to the centre objective with like half his army plus robots. The opposing harlequin player had been hurt by the shooting and knew he simply couldn't outshoot admech. So he concentrated on playing objectives. He let the admech player have the center objective, but used his speed and mobility to circle behind and attack the rear objectives that were lightly defended. In the end, the Harlequin player won. This was against an obviously shootier army that even managed to take the middle objective. (In hindsight, the admech player admitted he pushed too much of his army into the centre and left his rear too lightly defended).
When I first saw the rules I thought nothing seemed to have changed much, and this was going to be a shooty edition. But the primary mission objectives worth 45 points and the smaller table board means everyone is clashing and fighting over midboard objectives by turn 2.
Its a very big change. An army could lose all of his heaviest guns on turn 1, and still have a very close game concentrating on playing objectives. On the other hand, if you had an army that is minimum troops but filled with shooty stuff that just want to stand still and shoot, you are likely to lose even if you shot most of your opponent's army off the table by turn 4 or 5.
Huh. Sounds like ObSec troops are not at all a tax, but an important flag-planting element. I like that, hope Heretacs get parity with Cultists in terms of utility.
I saw another game where a black legion player was forced to send his Lord Discordant backwards to his own lines because a bunch of warp spiders had successfully killed the CSM on it and taken over the objective. He simply couldn't risk having the eldar player potentially keep on racking up those victory points every turn from holding that objective. And the only thing that was beefy and fast enough to make it back to his own lines was his Lord Discordant.
It tells you something about how important holding objectives is when a player is willing to send one of his best CSM characters moving backwards just to save his own objective from being taken over by the opponent. And yes, after that, he fully intended for the Lord Discordant to then sit on his own rear objective for the rest of the game if he couldn't send anyone else back. That's how important holding objectives is in 9th Edition.
I love this entire edition so far. It almost seems like it was designed specifically to screw with gunlines which I have always despised playing against.
I am thinking about Transports with Venomcrawlers helping on counter punches for center objectives.
Reivax26 wrote: I love this entire edition so far. It almost seems like it was designed specifically to screw with gunlines which I have always despised playing against.
I am thinking about Transports with Venomcrawlers helping on counter punches for center objectives.
Honestly, I’m just delighted at the prospect that I’ll be able to find reliable builds other than ‘all the Havocs’
BlaxicanX wrote:Can any of you Black Legion players shed some light on how you go about running them? I'm piqued by the concept of a BL list that just takes a smorgasbord of stuff from the army book.
Really mixed feelings between gunlines and harassment troops.
Will probably build my first 9th list around a Chainlord, Haarken, Raptors, and swarms of Cultists. I'll probably marry it with a gunline once I'm comfortable.
Objectives are more important this edition and Black Legion can deny multiple per turn. That's a big deal.
Eldenfirefly wrote:And I won't exactly consider a Rhino with a combi flamer as a flamer tank... lol
Foolishness. GW gives us a way to break shrink wrap around transports and the community says no thanks.
Eldenfirefly wrote:I think we just won't be able to match what imperium brings to the table in terms of flame tanks.
Forget flame tanks. Look at the cost of a Repulsor. Very, very efficient, can't see people wanting much else.
Eldenfirefly wrote:So, I have been watching quite a few 9th ed games on tabletop titans and tabletop tactics (both are great channels). The smaller tables and the main mission really do affect shooty armies. You simply can't just sit there in a castle and shoot.
Maybe. This is giving me fits.
Abaddon giving rerolls to a fire base is still pretty powerful.
Eldenfirefly wrote:You could shoot your opponent off the board from your shooty castle, but if that happens by turn 4, or 5, you have already lost the game. Because your opponent could have racked up 30 to 45 primary mission points while you got 0 to 10 even by the time you shot him to pieces.
You can cut your opponent's points in half with a Chainlord, some Raptors and the World Killers Stratagem.
Coupled with an adequate gunline, this would win a lot of games.
lindsay40k wrote:
Reivax26 wrote: I love this entire edition so far. It almost seems like it was designed specifically to screw with gunlines which I have always despised playing against.
I am thinking about Transports with Venomcrawlers helping on counter punches for center objectives.
Honestly, I’m just delighted at the prospect that I’ll be able to find reliable builds other than ‘all the Havocs’
Laying gunlines to rest might be premature.
They might not be static anymore, but they're not going away. Charge mechanics do not favor melee.
I actually agree with Techsoldaten. It may be premature to lay gunlines to rest. Shooting is just as deadly as it was in 8th edition. Its just that we can't ignore objectives and only focus on shooting the opponent off the table as well. What Techsoldaten suggested is more of a VP denial strategy rather than taking VPs from objectives aggressively. A squad of 5 raptors is basically 5 wounds in power armor. Good luck trying to hold a objective in your enemy lines or in the mid board until the start of your next turn with just that. You also need to consider the fact that raptors are not obsec. If your opponent has 5 primaris on that objective while you have 5 raptors, he will still take that objective.
The black legion strategem is great, but it will be a VP denial strategy, like I said. Because a few raptor squads and a jumppack chain lord won't be able to hold objectives until the start of your next turn if you are planning to hit multiple objectives.
Not unless you are planning on deep striking everything onto just one objective. Also, you can already see how it diminishes your shooting power somewhat. Because if you allocate the points to 3 squads of raptors and a chain lord and put them in deepstrike, then that's 400 points which are not being kitted out towards your shooty list, so your shooting just got 400 points weaker. Now your list is no longer a pure leafblower list at all.
We will have to see how it shakes out. But there may be some lists which are tailored towards holding objectives. And there will be some, like Tech's gunline list that is still primarily shooting, but will now add in some elements of deep strike to disrupt an objective focused army.
Raptors can disrupt for sure. If there is some lightly defended objective far away, they could do the trick. But if its against a major push to take and hold an objective, then probably not. Even if they succeed in taking a lightly defended objective. Now the opponent is free to shoot them off the board or counter charge them. 5 raptors aren't that durable. So maybe you succeeded in disrupting your opponent, but after that, you still don't hold that objective.
That's why I said VP denial. Maybe a shooty list with raptors is going for a low VP game where both sides don't get as much VP.
This brings me to mass assault lists as well (world eaters and Khorne lists). WE lists love to surge with everything up the field. But what happens if some deep striker hits your rear objective on turn 2 and 3? Can you afford to so easily give up one or two rear objectives just because your entire army is already up the field and wants to rip and tear? But anything that is kept behind then weakens your main assault wave, and the question is whether whatever you leave in the rear is even capable of fending off an attacker. WE units like berserkers suffer from being fragile. They hit hard, but die easily. So again, the challenge would be to hold on to an objective till the start of your next turn after you have cleared out the enemies from it.
Eh, I’m sure gunline will still be viable with the appropriate elements, I’m just a little tired of it being my best and strongest build. Looking forwards to trying a host of terminators, for starters.
There are some big changes to the weapon costs. Like infantry lascannons at 15 points. It almost a no brainer now to put a lascannon onto a CSM troop of 5. Previously it was 55+25 = 80 points. Now its 70+15 = 85 points. So, that's barely a 5 point increase.
And Lascannon Havocs actually got cheaper as a whole.Now they are 17x5+60 = 145. Previously, they were 14x5+100 = 170 points.
Also, melta guns are now only 10 points. That's cheap too. Chosen are 15 points. A 6 man chosen with 6 melta guns is 150 points. Spend CP, put them in strategic reserve. Boom, appear out of nowhere and fire 6 melta shots into your opponent's face, spend another 2 CP on Cocophany and do it again. I don't know how many vehicles can survive 12 melta shots. Its just 150 points. Its cheaper than trying to do that with Terminators. You could do the same with Plasma gun chosen. Same exact cost for 12 plasma shots into the face or 24 shots with cacophony.
Speaking of Terminators. We have one of the cheapest terminators across all factions and armies. And given how taking and holding objectives is so important now, maybe its time to take a hard look at terminators. While everything went up in cost, our terminators stayed the same. A basic chaos termi is 23+3+1 = 27 points and comes with a combi bolter, chain axe and termi armor. So, has 2 wounds, a 2+ save, can shoot 4 shots at 24 inches (after moving 5 inches) and can fight with Str 5, AP -1 attacks. Its a very versatile decent package. A squad of 5 such terminators only cost 135 points. Even if we swop one of the chain axe for a power fist, that only brings it to 145 points. This is a package that can shoot, can fight, can punch out vehicles, and can take and hold objectives.
I really kind of like the idea of a black legion terminator steel core of 30 terminators led by Abbadon dealing bolter death while stomping up the midfield. Whatever they can't beat in melee, they can probably shoot to death with Abby giving all their bolter shots rerolls. And Abby himself is super good at fighting. And if speed is a necessity, Abby and his termi friends can move advance while still being able to shoot their combi bolters.
We have the CP to spam cacophony every turn now. Mix in 3 squads of lascannon havocs. Now we can choose between 16 lascannons shots or 160 bolter shots!
ArcaneHorror wrote: Mostly ok, but I'm pissed that the MOP went up so much. Also, I hope that the fiends get better stats with these points increases.
Everything in the game went up, he didn't go up that much.
Looking like demon engine spam is the better option initially.
If want to go for daemon engine spam, I wonder if it might be better to spend 3 SP to go with a spearhead detachment instead of the usual
standard batallion detachment. Its not like our troops choices are good anyway, so why not just take zero troops and go full bore Daemon engine and vehicles?
I mean, honestly I think a defiler might do a better job guarding a rear objective while lobbing battle cannon shells+lascannon shots than a squad of CSM or a bunch of cultists. And by saving on taking sub par troops, now we can spend the points saved on even more daemon engines and vehicles! lol It will be like the CSM version of a tank column except instead of tanks, ours will be daemon engines.
Or double spearhead detachment. Then can go up to 12 heavy support choices! lol So we can bring 3 defilers, 3 forgefiends, 3 venomcrawlers and 3 mauler fiends! lol
A spearhead detachment can have 1 Lord Disco, 1 master of possession, 2 hellbrutes, and 6 daemon engines. Still got points? Then spend another 3 more CP and bring in a Lord of skulls lol. After all, once you go full daemon engines army, other than demon forge, there isn't that much else to spend CP on.
GW never cease to amaze me with their internal balance. Not had time to look at other faction point drops but the defiler going down in price and maulerfiend going up just seems like madness. The defiler was already far superior and now it can move and shoot without penalty and fire away in combat??
Mutilators not changing price once again establish themselves as a potential left field choice. DS onto an objective in cover, not easy to shift 9 wounds in terminator armour at just over 100pts. If they need to melee bully something off an objective they are more than capable too.
I already love moving Abaddon into the centre surrounded by a big group of bikes. The drop on melta price makes that even more interesting.
The drop to infantry heavy weapons makes raptors very appealing. Presumably the heavies have been priced to reflect the -1 to hit compared to vehicles so they have really lucked out.
I'd also be interested to try running a couple of vanguards, or a patrol and vanguard in order to upgrade having to take marines as troop tax and instead run units of chosen. The great thing about chosen is you don't have to load them up for bear. Just treat them like you would troops, include some cheap ablative wounds. You lose obsec but you break free of the 2 special weapons limit and they all can take a chainsword for free giving you triple the attacks. All for an extra 5pts. No brainer!
I'm assuming that there are more changes to see. Do we know what's in the rest of the CA book yet? This is just the points changes.
My observations
- Tacticals went up to 15, CSM are 14. This probably means we aren't getting Doctrine equivalent rules. Which sucks, because an extra AP and super doctrine bonus are worth WAY more than 1 point. Also chosen now cost the same as Tacticals.
- Cultists are 6pts. Guardsmen are 5. And cultists don't get traits. Ooof.
- Berzerkers, plague marines, and rubrics went up 2 pts. Noise marines went up 3. And sonic blasters went from 4 to 5. So noise marines with blasters now cost 21pts. That's pretty prohibitive. But why did sonic blasters go up? I'd assume its because they think they are worth more now that there will be so much terrain on the board. And that might be the case. Blast master down 2pts means there may be a role for MSU squads with a BM if you're EC.
- Missile Launchers came down 5pts for infantry, and frag missiles have blast. This means the missile launcher is actually worth using now. In the past, it lost to other options because Frag missiles were really bad.
- All power weapons are now 5pts. Power axe was already the most efficient option overall, and now it is by even more. But single lightning claw might have a use now.
- Power fist went up to 10pts, and chainfist went down to 10pts. So no reason not to run all chainfists on your terminators now (unless you don't need ap-4 and really want the chance at a 3dmg hit)
- Terminators stayed at 23pts, which actually means they improved by 3-4pts, as most things in their pts range went up by that much. But combi-bolters went from 2-3. Terminators were only a few pts away from being worthwhile before. Now they are worth a serious look. Combi plasma is also down a point. So chainaxe+combi plasma is now 34pts, which is actually very respectable.
- Terminator characters also made out very well. Terminator lord didn't change, and sorc went up 5 from the force weapons being rolled in. Terminator is now 10pts cheaper than Jump Pack in both cases.
- Defiler's points didn't change. Twin heavy bolter and flamer went up, reaper ac is the same, and havoc is down a point to 5. Scourge is also down 2pts. So the cheapest loadout is havoc+reaper for 135pts, which is nuts for how durable they are. (And the twin heavy flamer is worth considering now that it can be fired in melee, but scourge + reaper is probably still best at 140pts.)
- Forgefiend went up 5 base, and hades autocannon went up 5. Ectoplasma didn't change. And Daemon Jaws went from 8 to 0! So proportionally, forgefiend didn't change much. So 135 for 2x hades and Jaws. This coupled with hybrid vehicles already getting big buffs in 9th should make it a solid unit (finally.)
- Maulerfiend on the other hand went up 20pts. But lasher tendrils came down 2, and magma cutter down 1. And the magma cutters might actually be worth using now that it can shoot them in melee. (EDIT: They already could, forgot they were pistol)
- Winged Prince and Disco lord got nerfed pretty hard. Both went up 30pts. Regular prince only went up 4. But Warp bolter went up 2, and paired malefic talons are up 5.
- Lord of skulls went up from 315-350, but its Daemongore cannon went down 10, its Gorestorm cannon went from 74 to 30!, and its other weapons didn't change. So as long as you're running the Gorestorm, it actually got cheaper! And most Knights went up by ~10%, so this makes it look quite nice.
- Landraiders went down 5pts, which isn't enough to make them worth using (even with cheaper terminators.) And Rhinos went up 10 base, so still very limited use.
- Special characters barely moved. Khârn went down 5pts. Abaddon only went up 10. He's only 220! Compared to where prince and Disco lords are now, that's a big deal.
- Predators and vindicators only went up 5. Heavy bolters going up 5pts on vehicles and lascannons going down 5 means you're gonna run las sponson preds for 5pts cheaper than before. That's pretty good considering.
So overall, our fate is mostly still a matter of getting our traits fixed. The internal balance of our book seems to be swinging away from spamming princes and discos, and towards hybrid vehicles.
Thousand Sons:
- Exalted Sorcs down 12pts, and got their force staff free, so down 20! They are now 100/120 on disc, which might make them useful.
- Tzaangors only went up 1pt, so that's not bad.
- Scarab occult went up 4pts, and their swords 1pt, but their guns are still 3. so 31pts total. That's not great.
- Tzaangor enlightened up 5pts. That's a 38% increase, one of the largest. Their spears became free (only 1 pt change), but bows didn't change. So they're probably hosed.
- Horrors went up a lot. Ouch. Other daemons also got larger than 10% increases. Double ouch.
- Ahriman up by 19pts on foot, but only 4pts on disc? Odd.
- Magnus up 20pts, which isn't much of a % increase compared to other superheavies.
Death Guard:
- Plague marines only went up 2 as said earlier, which isn't bad. Plasma gun now costs the same as blight launcher, which makes it more worthwhile. And other special weapons changed. Plague belcher down 2, plague spewer down 5, mace of contagion down 2, but flail of corruption up by 5!
- Blight Haulers down 5pts base, but multimeltas up 5 to compensate. But still, not changing in cost matters, and they benefit a lot from 9th ed changes, like other hybrid daemon engines.
- Plagueburst crawler up 30pts, which is huge. Heavy slugger down from 6 to 0 which helps, and rothail down from 12 to 5. But plaguespitters up by 3pts. This big increase likely is because its gained blast on the mortar, and indirect fire weapons will be more valuable in 9th with the new terrain. Probably still decent.
- Typhus and Mortarion only up by small amounts.
- Blightlords only went up 1 point base, and 1 for combi-bolters (but down 1 on combi-plasma.) They were already solid, and now should be great.
- Deathshrounds went up by 7pts, weapon down by 2pts. Seems to have gone from unusable to more unusable.
- Poxwalker from 5 to 7, probably dead?
- Characters haven't changed much.
- Bloat drone went up 16pts, and gets hit by plaguespitters going up 3. Fleshmower down 2pts, plague probe down 5, and heavy blight launcher down 10. Still seems a bit high compared to other daemon engine increases.
One things for sure, I'm glad I finished my Leviathan Dread during lockdown and haven't had a chance to use it yet! With the points hike he's looking like he won't ever see action...
I mean, every vehicle now gets the Daemonic machine spirit perk, so the LR’s not really *lost* anything. I can’t tell from the comments if they’ve had a tiny reduction in price or a big one?
I’m pretty sure we already had to pay reinforcement points to turn an enemy into a spawn, I think the change there is a rewrite to refer to engagement range
Eldenfirefly wrote: Lord of skulls didn't see any point increase. But I am not sure how many would want to pay the 3 CP just to add a LOS into their army.
Might be very fluffy if you go all daemon engine anyway. After all, a LOS is the meanest daemon engine we have in CSM.
I'm gona run him lol.
He can hit anything 1" horizontal and 5" vertical. That dude is going to terrorize buildings better then kong!
Reivax26 wrote: I don't think that we are bottom tier but we are definitely going to have to approach list building in a different way.
Hell that's true of a lot of armies.
Dunno... points aside, feels like we're not playing to our advantages.
We have Warptime. You have to be on an objective at the start of the turn to score. We lost some of the benefit of being able to scramble up the board.
Berserkers have all these attacks. Multicharges fail if you miss one of your targets. Overkill is going to be an issue.
HQs have great auras. Conga lines are going to be harder to pull off because of Morale.
Cultists / Possessed can take large numbers of models. Those units will now be prime targets for blast weapons.
I can think of a few other things that concern me. Will be interested in seeing what a competitive list looks like.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Lord of skulls didn't see any point increase. But I am not sure how many would want to pay the 3 CP just to add a LOS into their army.
Might be very fluffy if you go all daemon engine anyway. After all, a LOS is the meanest daemon engine we have in CSM.
I'm gona run him lol.
He can hit anything 1" horizontal and 5" vertical. That dude is going to terrorize buildings better then kong!
His hull reaches up to like at least 8 inches up because it includes his chest and even his head! He could probably hit units which are even on the third floor! lol
Reivax26 wrote: I don't think that we are bottom tier but we are definitely going to have to approach list building in a different way.
Hell that's true of a lot of armies.
Dunno... points aside, feels like we're not playing to our advantages.
We have Warptime. You have to be on an objective at the start of the turn to score. We lost some of the benefit of being able to scramble up the board.
Berserkers have all these attacks. Multicharges fail if you miss one of your targets. Overkill is going to be an issue.
HQs have great auras. Conga lines are going to be harder to pull off because of Morale.
Cultists / Possessed can take large numbers of models. Those units will now be prime targets for blast weapons.
I can think of a few other things that concern me. Will be interested in seeing what a competitive list looks like.
Yeah, big changes in 9th ed. Will have to see how it shakes out. I am kinda concerned, but have to keep an open mind. Daemon Engine spam feels like a one trick pony, and it feels like running a knight army. Sooner or later, you will run into a guy who brought nothing but anti tank guns and it will be the paper to your rock. I think everyone will seen realise how important it is to be able to dominate and hold midboard objectives while protecting your own rear objectives against attack. The problem is I am still kinda racking my brains to think of what would be the best way to hold those midboard objectives.
Because while we have terminators, loyalists have storm shield terminators, and that is definitely not a fight in our favour if those two units get into a brawl in the midboard...
We can’t Warptime a Flyer any more. Dang, that came in handy when I threw a Heldrake up a 72” board to eat Njal Stormcaller
Knights Tyrant need LoS with their character sniper missile
Didn’t see anything massive, mostly just rewording to refer to engagement range and look out, sir
Heldrakes still aren't AIRCRAFT, though, are they? So you might still be picking Njal out of your teeth.
Considering that the helldrake allways was well more like a real fyling monster and less then an aircraft it might still happen indeed.
Also, atleast now you can pick the Hades AC bit more often aswell thanks to the improved vehicle rules.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Mostly ok, but I'm pissed that the MOP went up so much. Also, I hope that the fiends get better stats with these points increases.
Everything in the game went up, he didn't go up that much.
Looking like demon engine spam is the better option initially.
I know, I'm still a little hurt since that's one of my favorite units, both fluff and rules-wise. At least Kharn went down five points.
I don't really get the MoP increase, i still think he is decidedly worse then a sorcerer, granted the MoP has some spells that in the right circumstances are vastly better but i feel like those circumstances still aren't really desireable...
Eldenfirefly wrote: Lord of skulls didn't see any point increase. But I am not sure how many would want to pay the 3 CP just to add a LOS into their army.
Might be very fluffy if you go all daemon engine anyway. After all, a LOS is the meanest daemon engine we have in CSM.
What we thinking about forge fiends now the pts and 9th ed rules are out?
I'm thinking would 3 be cool with autocannons and a lord discordant.
Just march em forward hitting on 3's! with 24 s8 dm2 shots
Thinking of including this in my world eaters army, wondering what stuff to put on the LD? Maybe a DP might be btter so he can remain hidden i guess re-rolling 1's inst quite as good as hitting on 3's though. If went LD i guess its unholy fortitude on him
sake 
