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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/18 10:33:34
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Those Chosen are 100% dead weight in the list.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/18 10:40:22
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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suboptimal, not necesarrily deadweight.
considering that, i'd have gone with the cheaper CB spam squad.
there's something to be said about a -1 to hit 4shot / model squad at 16 pts.
I'd personally have formed a seperate detachment with the CSM off RC to get access to no shortage of corsairs and khorne icon to bring them back and be more mobile overall with the cqc squad.
The autocannon squd i'd split up into 2 5 man ones, simply for beeing more durable.
but that is just nitpicky and optimisaiton on a list level.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/18 10:43:57
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
The dark hollows of Kentucky
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Yeah I'd trade them out for more terminators but drop the combi meltas for combi plasma. Or maybe free up some points somewhere else and get another obliterator.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/18 15:14:07
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Warp-Screaming Noise Marine
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The good news is that they are the cheapest MEQ there is! Bad news is they lost melta bombs and marks of chaos don’t do anything really cool. Worse is that everything in the Dex barring dinobots is back to being exclusively loyalist equivalent minus one. Imagine how cool chosen could be if you could purchase a special rule for them like in the 3.5 dex. It would really cushion the fact that loyalists have access to 10 different types of veteran.
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Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/18 17:04:41
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Not Online!!! wrote:
suboptimal, not necesarrily deadweight.
considering that, i'd have gone with the cheaper CB spam squad.
there's something to be said about a -1 to hit 4shot / model squad at 16 pts.
I'd personally have formed a seperate detachment with the CSM off RC to get access to no shortage of corsairs and khorne icon to bring them back and be more mobile overall with the cqc squad.
The autocannon squd i'd split up into 2 5 man ones, simply for beeing more durable.
but that is just nitpicky and optimisaiton on a list level.
It's actually pretty dead weight. The amount of effort that would need to be put into them for any damage output is silly. Also I do agree with you. I've been rocking 5 Combi-Bolters + Chaincannon since it became a thing, and it's cheap for what you get. Plus the bodies guarding the Chaincannon are only 16 points if they need to die.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/18 17:47:00
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Warp-Screaming Noise Marine
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14 ppm as per CA19.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/18 17:47:20
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/18 19:06:30
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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True that. Haven't used anything since March for CSM.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/20 12:19:54
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I was using the models that I have at my disposal currently so apologies if my list shocked or offended anyone in its sadness models wise.
That close combat squad actually helped drop a bloat drone and about half of a big Poxwalkers squad before they finally died.
I call that a win. The Chosen squad were joined by the Greater Possessed and that combo actually worked out rather well. All the plasma was able to finish off Mortarion and later on tied up Typhus and another enemy character.
Overall I was shocked at how well the army performed. The bad part is that I think I could have beaten him quite a bit worse than I did but I am still getting used to the army.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/20 19:45:41
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Warp-Screaming Noise Marine
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Reivax26 wrote:I was using the models that I have at my disposal currently so apologies if my list shocked or offended anyone in its sadness models wise.
That close combat squad actually helped drop a bloat drone and about half of a big Poxwalkers squad before they finally died.
I call that a win. The Chosen squad were joined by the Greater Possessed and that combo actually worked out rather well. All the plasma was able to finish off Mortarion and later on tied up Typhus and another enemy character.
Overall I was shocked at how well the army performed. The bad part is that I think I could have beaten him quite a bit worse than I did but I am still getting used to the army.
Disregard the haters. I sincerely respect your list because it looks like what I think people should be bringing to the table on a casual night. At least it’s not some darn netlist built around disco lord and dinobots... you keep doing what you are doing. I am happy the chosen squad worked out for you! Hopefully it does so again in the future. You will have games where they won’t though and be prepared for that.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/20 19:46:46
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/20 22:55:12
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Regular Dakkanaut
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My main army is Dark Angels. I brought them to an ITC tournament last October where they got tabled by an Ad Mech/Knights list with 4 Knights that had over 24 wounds.
I know the meaning of sadness.....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/21 09:28:29
Subject: Re:Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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I haven't kept tabs on CSM since Vigilus 1 was announced. Do non-soup CSM have any options for forming a good gunline? I'm playing a doubles with a Daemons player who's going all melee, so chaff-clearing and potentially tank-busting falls to me. Are Iron Warriors any good now, or is there a better legion to go with for a shooting-focused army?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/21 16:21:36
Subject: Re:Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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BlaxicanX wrote:I haven't kept tabs on CSM since Vigilus 1 was announced. Do non-soup CSM have any options for forming a good gunline? I'm playing a doubles with a Daemons player who's going all melee, so chaff-clearing and potentially tank-busting falls to me. Are Iron Warriors any good now, or is there a better legion to go with for a shooting-focused army?
AL and IW are probably the best shooty CSM legions for killing enemy vehicles. IW have more offensive powers, while AL is more on the defensive side with their -1 to hit at 12+".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/21 19:43:21
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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Yeah, I like the look of nu-Iron Warriors. EC seem kinda nice too with their shoot-twice strategem. What I'm not sure about though is what units to actually take as a firebase. We don't seem to really have any artillery or tanks that's worth a damn, and the demon engines all hit on 4's. Contemptors and Deredeos seem pretty nice though.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/21 19:43:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/21 19:53:20
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Anyone with Slannesh gets to shoot twice, not just Emperors Children.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/21 21:00:48
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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Sure, but EC is how you get noise Marines as troops. I'm starting off at 1,000 points so there might be some value in not having to deal with a true tax.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/21 21:04:35
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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BlaxicanX wrote:Sure, but EC is how you get noise Marines as troops. I'm starting off at 1,000 points so there might be some value in not having to deal with a true tax.
You don't wanna use that Strat on Noise Marines though unless you're at some last resort kinda situation.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/21 21:04:40
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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BlaxicanX wrote:Yeah, I like the look of nu-Iron Warriors. EC seem kinda nice too with their shoot-twice strategem.
Any infantry, from any legion, with mark of slaanesh gets to shoot twice with endless cacophony.
BlaxicanX wrote:What I'm not sure about though is what units to actually take as a firebase. We don't seem to really have any artillery or tanks that's worth a damn, and the demon engines all hit on 4's. Contemptors and Deredeos seem pretty nice though.
Contemptors, deredeos, levi dread are the best shooty vehicles. Dont bother with tanks. For infantry use oblits, combiplasma termis, havocs.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/21 21:17:04
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Crazed Spirit of the Defiler
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Hey I keep toying with adding demons to both my death guard army and my world eaters. I'll probably do it regardless just for modelling reasons but I am struggling to see what they offer as an addition to the army.
I'm not a super competitive player but I don't like to take stuff that's dead weight. I also like to find some nice synergy in my choices.
So what do nurgle daemons bring to death guard? They already have some pretty resilient infantry. They struggle with long range dakka and they're slow. None of those things seem to be mitigated by nurgle daemons except perhaps dropping nurglings on objectives for board control.
And what does khorne bring to world eaters? They already have blender infantry, the bloodletter bomb is nice but it's not necessarily a huge upgrade from what WE can do deep striking ten red butcher terminators.
So what am I missing and what synergies can I achieve? I normally play 1750 or 2000 points. Should I be trying to get a battalion of each in a list?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/22 03:37:08
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Warp-Screaming Noise Marine
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EC does get you access to sonic dreadnought... you can put two blastmasters that you can double tap at the closest unit per the helbrute stratagem. So EC for a gunline that can punch back isn’t terrible considering the sonic dreads. Also I think it’s still technically up for debate as to whether The strat applies to keyword “helbrute” or model name helbrute... but the sonic dread DOES have the keyword.
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Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/22 03:42:39
Subject: Re:Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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BlaxicanX wrote:I haven't kept tabs on CSM since Vigilus 1 was announced. Do non-soup CSM have any options for forming a good gunline? I'm playing a doubles with a Daemons player who's going all melee, so chaff-clearing and potentially tank-busting falls to me. Are Iron Warriors any good now, or is there a better legion to go with for a shooting-focused army?
Black Legion gunlines. Abaddon, lascannon Havocs, Contemptors with Lascannons, 10x CSM squads with 2 lascannons, and toss in some Scorpius Whirlwinds. Put everyone inside Abaddon's reroll bubble and you will clean your opponents off the board.
If you're playing doubles with an all-melee Daemon's army, that's enough to make people hate you.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/22 05:40:59
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I am thinking about adding to my Alpha Legion. My choices are to:
1. Buy a Daemon Prince and a Lord Discordant. I don't have any of either.
2. Buy a Chaos Knight. The idea being that if I set him up shooty I can use the Alpha Legion strat to try to make the tanks he destroys almost always explode. Plus he's a hell of a distraction.
Thoughts?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/22 06:41:23
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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Reivax26 wrote:I am thinking about adding to my Alpha Legion. My choices are to:
1. Buy a Daemon Prince and a Lord Discordant. I don't have any of either.
2. Buy a Chaos Knight. The idea being that if I set him up shooty I can use the Alpha Legion strat to try to make the tanks he destroys almost always explode. Plus he's a hell of a distraction.
Thoughts?
1. Do you have any daemon engines to buff with the disco lord ? Hint : Lord of skulls or kytan ravager are daemon engines, and they are similar to a chaos knight.
2. Why not a lord of skulls, of kytan ravager ? They have the legion keyword, and can be buffed by stratagems, or psychic powers. For example you can play daemonforge on them, rerolling all failed hit and wound rolls. You can prescience them, for +1 to hit. You can warptime them.
If your lord of skulls or kytan ravager is in a soulforged pack they can use the stratagem infernal engines to be able to charge after advancing. Combine that with warptime and you have an almost guaranteed T1 charge. A disco lord would buff them with +1 to hit, and with prescience they would get +2 to hit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/22 07:23:21
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I will look into the Kytan and Lord of Skulls. Thanks for the info.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/22 18:33:23
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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Has it ever been elaborated on on whether or not forge world dreads get access to the firing frenzy strategy?
They're named dreadnoughts and not helbrute but they have the helbrute keyword.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/22 18:47:56
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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BlaxicanX wrote:Has it ever been elaborated on on whether or not forge world dreads get access to the firing frenzy strategy?
They're named dreadnoughts and not helbrute but they have the helbrute keyword.
They don't as the strategem is keyed to the unit name not the keyword.
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BlaxicanX wrote:A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/22 20:04:25
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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Gotcha, thanks.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/23 15:26:25
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Toothy 3rd Gen True Hybrid
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Abaddon303 wrote:Hey I keep toying with adding demons to both my death guard army and my world eaters. I'll probably do it regardless just for modelling reasons but I am struggling to see what they offer as an addition to the army.
I'm not a super competitive player but I don't like to take stuff that's dead weight. I also like to find some nice synergy in my choices.
So what do nurgle daemons bring to death guard? They already have some pretty resilient infantry. They struggle with long range dakka and they're slow. None of those things seem to be mitigated by nurgle daemons except perhaps dropping nurglings on objectives for board control.
And what does khorne bring to world eaters? They already have blender infantry, the bloodletter bomb is nice but it's not necessarily a huge upgrade from what WE can do deep striking ten red butcher terminators.
So what am I missing and what synergies can I achieve? I normally play 1750 or 2000 points. Should I be trying to get a battalion of each in a list?
Some Khorne Warptalons (because Daemon keyword) with a character from a Khorne Daemon detachment is decent tech to shut down overwatch, and doesn't break the bank for general purpose. Also, with a Chaos Daemon detachment you got access to some extra stratagems, so you can deepstrike them in with your termies, and you can punish enemy psykers when they peril.
If you take Bloodletters with banner and instrument and spend some CP, you can charge them in for rerollable 3d6+1", and follow up with rerollable 2d6+2" charges from other units in that detachment. That is definitely an upgrade in reliability of getting into melee.
With Nurgle the ability to drop in from warp is indeed a remedy for the Death Guards slowness. The ability to tie up shooty gunline units while your army waltzes forward is almost more important than just grabbing objectives.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 04:13:35
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I struggle to see how 9th edition will impact us. Other than make soup chaos armies harder to play. Like the blast weapons inflicting max hits on horde armies. We hardly have any good blast type weapons in the first place. Frag missile launcher? the battle cannon on a defiler ? You need to hit first even if you get 6 shots firing that at a horde... And do we want to even fire a demolisher cannon on a horde to begin with?
A lot of our other blast weapons are d3 hits. Making a d3 hits into 3 hits is ok, but its not gonna change that much...
Maybe terrain is gonna be a big thing.. Except it just makes things even harder for chaos. Unless you go forgeworld, existing GW chaos has no weapons that can shoot out of line of sight. Imperium has tons. Everything from thunderfire cannons to basilisks. CSM has a fat zero.
So yeah, I don't know what kind of new rules they want to make to terrain, but all I know is that Imperium has guns that don't even need line of sight. Those basically don't care what terrain you have. While CSM has zero of those... unless you go into forgeworld.
And tanks being able to shoot in combat. Slight benefit to CSM, but honestly, most of our daemon engines and vehicles can fight anyway. We don't mind getting locked in combat. We mulch through anything we do fight mostly. This only benefits AM tanks. We don't have anything like that unless you want to consider stuff like deathguard PBCs.
Now if they brought back the rule that vehicles can muscle their way through blocking infantry that has to get out of their way, that would be cool. I always felt it was dumb that one solitary infantry model can block and stop a big honking lord of skull in its tracks by standing in front of it... Like wooo, I need to come to a complete stop just cos of this puny guy who doesn't even reach higher than my wheel tracks instead of just grinding him under my wheels ...
Maybe everyone getting same CP will benefit us more on a relative basis... simply cos it will make the game fairer ? Shrugs. That just evens everyone out. Hardly call that benefit to us unless we admit we were at a disadvantage on this all along...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 09:34:19
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Maybe everyone getting same CP will benefit us more on a relative basis... simply cos it will make the game fairer ? Shrugs. That just evens everyone out. Hardly call that benefit to us unless we admit we were at a disadvantage on this all along...
No, csm were by far the army that could generate the most CP/ Pts, but was held back by the fact that you'd not want to use that ability because you needed the detachment slots overall more then the CP.
Further, CSM as it stands now, if that is implemented and to stingy overall will just stop functioning.
Consider the mainline buff moves for the "core damage dealers" for CSM.
Cacophony, 2 cp, Votwl, 1 CP, conceal, 2 CP, We are alpharius, 1CP.
That is in total just 6 CP used pregame, that's basically a whole battalion allready, if they intend to run it like KT then you can atmost assume to get 2 cp / round. , By turn 3 when you can use them your whole army has fallen into shambles.
And this also excludes any and all potential reactionary stratagem use, like scrambled coordinates, or ambush, etc.
Also the forgeworld thing is, so long the books aren't updated 95% of the options they offer are worse by a long shot, not to mention that the only real planes chaos has access to are in that category aswell.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/24 11:13:01
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 11:07:11
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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Eldenfirefly wrote:I struggle to see how 9th edition will impact us. Other than make soup chaos armies harder to play. Like the blast weapons inflicting max hits on horde armies. We hardly have any good blast type weapons in the first place. Frag missile launcher? the battle cannon on a defiler ? You need to hit first even if you get 6 shots firing that at a horde... And do we want to even fire a demolisher cannon on a horde to begin with?
A few things from the announcement made me think 9th edition will be a wash for CSMs.
1) Better terrain rules should favor elite cc units.
2) However, tanks can now shoot them in combat.
3) And flyers can do strafing runs.
4) And hordes will be more vulnerable.
I have something called the Berzerker Rule, which states the quality of a new edition (or mid-edition iteration, like a FAQ) can be summarized by how suitable the rules are for Khorne Berzerkers. They exemplify the benefits and drawbacks of high-impact melee CSM units better than most others. Passing this test means you can run fluffy armies that won't be shot off the table, failing it means there will be a low correlation between fluff and competitiveness.
5th edition was great. Berzerker Rush was a thing, you could use cult troops to build an elite army. Being able to advance in place of shooting was good for them.
6th edition was terrible. It invalidated most Berzerker specific tactics. 7th, by extension, was just more of the same.
8th started off great. For almost a year, you could use a Kharbydis Assault Claw to drop 4x5 Berzerkers on your opponent at 9 inches. FAQs, points changes, Codex Creep, etc made this style impractical.
We don't know much about 9th yet, but the changes described so far favor armor, flyers, and artillery. So I agree there are reasons to be concerned this edition will fail the Berzerker Rule test, I will probably still be running Black Legion gunlines and Daemon Primarch lists for a while to come. Could change as we learn more.
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