vaklor4 wrote: For an objective based match (with progressive scoring) for a World Eaters army, is there any place at all for taking stock Marines as troop choices? Or is it better off to just go purely for Berzerkers in Rhinos, and Cultists on foot? Now that the difference between Cultists and Marines for an MSU is a mere 15 points, is there that big of a difference still? And i'm going to preface this with the fact that I probably wont be running a giant blob. MSU cultists only.
It's a great question. I'd think having more wounds would be more valuable, therefore the Cultists.
However, does it have to be just troops? The cost difference between CSM and Chosen isn't that big either...
Yeah, very specifically troop choice, for detachment reasons. The more wounds IS fantastic, but I gotta wonder what the overall math is with the +1 toughness and 3+ save. That's an incredibly higher chance of shrugging off wounds and resisting AP, and the bracket of 3-4 toughness effects a /lot/ of guns in the game.
You're right, CSMs are tougher. That matters against small arms fire, the Marines can last a lot longer. If you're playing against infantry based lists, they are going to do better.
But right now the meta belongs to Knights. Most of the lists I play against have Knights or the weapons to kill Knights. In general, this means lots of shots with a negative AP modifier.
Both CSMs and Cultists are going to go down to that. The question to as is would you rather have 5 CSMs with a 5+ save (after the AP modifier) or 10 Cultists with no save? In practical terms, this is the difference between your opponent needing to commit one or two units to shooting at that pesky scoring unit. All you need is one Cultist to survive to claim an uncontested objective.
8th edition undervalues offense and overvalues saves. That's why Terminators cost so much even though they are less effective that Noise Marines. That's why Shield Captains are so hit-and-miss, their incredible saves can be offset by weight of fire. For right now, if you are making a choice between comparable units, side with the one that makes you pay the least for saving throws.
Another way to think about it: max sized CSM and Cultist units perform similar roles. You trade +1 T and 3+ saves for +20 wounds and Tide of Traitors. The only way the CSMs win out is if your opponent's army consists of AP 0 weapons, since those saves would have to matter. Do you really want to count on your opponent stocking up on those kinds of guns right now?
I'm trying to think of what is likely to be deleting your troops regularly. I guess I'd be interested in comparing cultists to marines surviving things like kastelan robots, leman Russ punisher, kheles contemptors.
If you want to keep it simple I guess, bolters, lasguns, heavy Bolters, assault cannons. They're the basic anti infantry profiles you come across...
The things killing your infantry should be all the incidental weapons that arent pointed at better targets. Both CSM and cultists will just get deleted if anything actually pays attention to them, the question is which one will last longer when they catch stray small-arms fire.
I'm excited to try out dual CCW/soulburner contemptors in dreadclaws using renegade trait.
14+d6" advance movement T1 from the dreadclaw, then T2 disembark 3" + 9" movement from the contemptor, and it can advance and charge if need be, so 12+d6" and still charge and shoot the soulburners is pretty sweet.
I've yet to try my dreadclaw for transporting a dread. I just wrote it off after the Termite came out, which just ate it's lunch as far as infantry assault transports go.
Sounds like it'd be a good idea, because my contemptors usually die before getting to combat, even with renegade advances. But once they can get that 4++ and start eating models, they're real happy.
vaklor4 wrote: For an objective based match (with progressive scoring) for a World Eaters army, is there any place at all for taking stock Marines as troop choices? Or is it better off to just go purely for Berzerkers in Rhinos, and Cultists on foot? Now that the difference between Cultists and Marines for an MSU is a mere 15 points, is there that big of a difference still? And i'm going to preface this with the fact that I probably wont be running a giant blob. MSU cultists only.
It's a great question. I'd think having more wounds would be more valuable, therefore the Cultists.
However, does it have to be just troops? The cost difference between CSM and Chosen isn't that big either...
Yeah, very specifically troop choice, for detachment reasons. The more wounds IS fantastic, but I gotta wonder what the overall math is with the +1 toughness and 3+ save. That's an incredibly higher chance of shrugging off wounds and resisting AP, and the bracket of 3-4 toughness effects a /lot/ of guns in the game.
You're right, CSMs are tougher. That matters against small arms fire, the Marines can last a lot longer. If you're playing against infantry based lists, they are going to do better.
But right now the meta belongs to Knights. Most of the lists I play against have Knights or the weapons to kill Knights. In general, this means lots of shots with a negative AP modifier.
Both CSMs and Cultists are going to go down to that. The question to as is would you rather have 5 CSMs with a 5+ save (after the AP modifier) or 10 Cultists with no save? In practical terms, this is the difference between your opponent needing to commit one or two units to shooting at that pesky scoring unit. All you need is one Cultist to survive to claim an uncontested objective.
8th edition undervalues offense and overvalues saves. That's why Terminators cost so much even though they are less effective that Noise Marines. That's why Shield Captains are so hit-and-miss, their incredible saves can be offset by weight of fire. For right now, if you are making a choice between comparable units, side with the one that makes you pay the least for saving throws.
Another way to think about it: max sized CSM and Cultist units perform similar roles. You trade +1 T and 3+ saves for +20 wounds and Tide of Traitors. The only way the CSMs win out is if your opponent's army consists of AP 0 weapons, since those saves would have to matter. Do you really want to count on your opponent stocking up on those kinds of guns right now?
In cover the Cultists are durable enough. The point of the matter is Cultists matter more for offense than the regular Marines for the price. That's WAY more important.
The other issue in saying "oh a 5-strong CSM squad is only 15pts more" is that you don't stop there. You give them a plasma gun, or an autocannon, or a lascannon and your investment just went up to almost double what you were paying for 10-cultists. Yes, 5-CSM with a lascannon are going to do more than 5-CSM without, but they're also going to become a target, and it doesn't take much to knock them out. Cultists might have gone up, but you can still take 10-strong units and dump them on objectives and they get ignored because they're not much of a threat. Unless your opponent wants to deny you an objective (because you've drawn a Defect Objective X card, perhaps), they don't attract much notice. 5-CSM plinking at enemy vehicles with their lascannon, that might attract attention.
McGibs wrote: I've yet to try my dreadclaw for transporting a dread. I just wrote it off after the Termite came out, which just ate it's lunch as far as infantry assault transports go.
Sounds like it'd be a good idea, because my contemptors usually die before getting to combat, even with renegade advances. But once they can get that 4++ and start eating models, they're real happy.
I used it once, it failed its charge after DS and so did the Contemptor and the Terminator Sorc that dropped with it. Contemptor took 4 wounds off his Baal pred and then he blew up all 3 of my DS on his turn. Sad. I wanted it to be effective but the unreliable charge after DS just wasn't really worth those points to me. I still like the combo and almost started them on the field to warptime them, should have.
McGibs wrote: I've yet to try my dreadclaw for transporting a dread. I just wrote it off after the Termite came out, which just ate it's lunch as far as infantry assault transports go.
Sounds like it'd be a good idea, because my contemptors usually die before getting to combat, even with renegade advances. But once they can get that 4++ and start eating models, they're real happy.
I used it once, it failed its charge after DS and so did the Contemptor and the Terminator Sorc that dropped with it. Contemptor took 4 wounds off his Baal pred and then he blew up all 3 of my DS on his turn. Sad. I wanted it to be effective but the unreliable charge after DS just wasn't really worth those points to me. I still like the combo and almost started them on the field to warptime them, should have.
Yeah, I would start them on the field for sure. Both the claw and the dread (ha) are fast enough to net a turn two charge, and my opponent has to go through the claw to get the tasty dread inside.
So I have be thinking about a contemptor dreadnought and a Leviathan. I’m only using BattleScribe so not 100% sure about points cost.
The leviathan is a better choice but I can take two contemptors which makes it a better choice in my opinion.
Just want everyone’s opinion on the matter before I make an order.
Personally I like Contemptors a lot more then Leviathans. Their chainfist is a flat 4 damage and will eff-stuff-up, but they can also carry pretty good guns if you want to go that route, and they got a lot cheaper in CA. Chaos Leviathans aren't nearly as stupid as loyalist ones, as they dont get 4++ all the time, less shots than storm arrays, and don't have the same wombo combos (like that warlord trait that adds extra AP on 6's).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: In cover the Cultists are durable enough. The point of the matter is Cultists matter more for offense than the regular Marines for the price. That's WAY more important.
Yeah. Offense is undervalued and defense is overvalued in 8th edition.
But the OP had a specific context in mind: in an objective mission with progressive scoring, which is the better MSU unit.
I personally wouldn't be hoping for much out of either unit except that it can stand near an objective for a round or two to get some points. The fact Cultists have more wounds make them more suited to this role.
In a kill points game, CSM are better simply because they can take a Lascannon. That gun gets the most work done for me in 8th edition.
But I don't know. 40k is infested with Imperial Knights right now and I'm not putting much into infantry that can't damage armor. Many people have commented on the mathematical possibility of Cultists / Berzerkers versus Knights, but it doesn't feel practical in most games. It's possible I'm not thinking through other possibilities.
I'm totally new to Chaos Marines, and am looking for a bit of advice.
Currently adding them to my Renegades and Heretics army (which is v. static gunline-y) as a hammer to the renegades' anvil (mortar spam and basilisks with bubblewrap bodies)
As far as I can tell, plasma is still king of 8th ed, so should I just try to cram a lot of plasma into everything?
I've got a hellbrute (no arms yet)
the plastic terminator lord/sorcerer
FW's Necrosius
5 raptor/warptalons (undecided)
27 marines (no arms yet)
5 terminators (no arms yet)
I'd ideally like to play them a bit fast and aggressive, to take the heat off my artillery, and as like a fun counterpart to my otherwise static trench rats. For a bit more context, I'd also like them nurgle themed, so if there are any cool synergies with that that'd be cool to hear about (not keen on death guard stuff tho, just bc I'm super unfamiliar with all their new stuff, and prefer the older chaos marines' style).
Cheers!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: In cover the Cultists are durable enough. The point of the matter is Cultists matter more for offense than the regular Marines for the price. That's WAY more important.
Yeah. Offense is undervalued and defense is overvalued in 8th edition.
But the OP had a specific context in mind: in an objective mission with progressive scoring, which is the better MSU unit.
I personally wouldn't be hoping for much out of either unit except that it can stand near an objective for a round or two to get some points. The fact Cultists have more wounds make them more suited to this role.
In a kill points game, CSM are better simply because they can take a Lascannon. That gun gets the most work done for me in 8th edition.
But I don't know. 40k is infested with Imperial Knights right now and I'm not putting much into infantry that can't damage armor. Many people have commented on the mathematical possibility of Cultists / Berzerkers versus Knights, but it doesn't feel practical in most games. It's possible I'm not thinking through other possibilities.
Eh, I disagree. That's 85 points for a Lascannon basically.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: In cover the Cultists are durable enough. The point of the matter is Cultists matter more for offense than the regular Marines for the price. That's WAY more important.
Yeah. Offense is undervalued and defense is overvalued in 8th edition.
But the OP had a specific context in mind: in an objective mission with progressive scoring, which is the better MSU unit.
I personally wouldn't be hoping for much out of either unit except that it can stand near an objective for a round or two to get some points. The fact Cultists have more wounds make them more suited to this role.
In a kill points game, CSM are better simply because they can take a Lascannon. That gun gets the most work done for me in 8th edition.
But I don't know. 40k is infested with Imperial Knights right now and I'm not putting much into infantry that can't damage armor. Many people have commented on the mathematical possibility of Cultists / Berzerkers versus Knights, but it doesn't feel practical in most games. It's possible I'm not thinking through other possibilities.
I agree, there is more to a unit that just how well it maths, practical application gets missed by a lot of people. You aren't exactly talking Harlie Jetbikes here.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: In cover the Cultists are durable enough. The point of the matter is Cultists matter more for offense than the regular Marines for the price. That's WAY more important.
Yeah. Offense is undervalued and defense is overvalued in 8th edition.
But the OP had a specific context in mind: in an objective mission with progressive scoring, which is the better MSU unit.
I personally wouldn't be hoping for much out of either unit except that it can stand near an objective for a round or two to get some points. The fact Cultists have more wounds make them more suited to this role.
In a kill points game, CSM are better simply because they can take a Lascannon. That gun gets the most work done for me in 8th edition.
But I don't know. 40k is infested with Imperial Knights right now and I'm not putting much into infantry that can't damage armor. Many people have commented on the mathematical possibility of Cultists / Berzerkers versus Knights, but it doesn't feel practical in most games. It's possible I'm not thinking through other possibilities.
Eh, I disagree. That's 85 points for a Lascannon basically.
That's terrible for a kill point game.
Being the mandatory alternative is 50 point cultist unit, it'sat most a 35pt Lascannon with 4 wounds in front of it, and that's assuming you get zero mileage out or any of the other improved capabilities of a marine squad
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Eh, I disagree. That's 85 points for a Lascannon basically.
That's terrible for a kill point game.
When the alternative is 10 Cultists, 5 CSMs with a lascannon is great.
I'm not comparing them with everything else in the Codex. I'm saying, given a choice between MSU Cultists and CSMs, Cultists are better at progressive scoring objective games and CSMs with a lascannon are marginally better in kill points games.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Eh, I disagree. That's 85 points for a Lascannon basically.
That's terrible for a kill point game.
When the alternative is 10 Cultists, 5 CSMs with a lascannon is great.
I'm not comparing them with everything else in the Codex. I'm saying, given a choice between MSU Cultists and CSMs, Cultists are better at progressive scoring objective games and CSMs with a lascannon are marginally better in kill points games.
Actually, to be correct, your alternative is now 17 Cultists. So for the spare 15 points that's 20 bodies instead of of just 5 bodies with only one good weapon for 85 points.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Eh, I disagree. That's 85 points for a Lascannon basically.
That's terrible for a kill point game.
When the alternative is 10 Cultists, 5 CSMs with a lascannon is great.
I'm not comparing them with everything else in the Codex. I'm saying, given a choice between MSU Cultists and CSMs, Cultists are better at progressive scoring objective games and CSMs with a lascannon are marginally better in kill points games.
Actually, to be correct, your alternative is now 17 Cultists. So for the spare 15 points that's 20 bodies instead of of just 5 bodies with only one good weapon for 85 points.
The accurate comparison is 5 space marines to 13 cultists. The option to take a Lascannon on top of that is then available to one of these units, for no other price than the cost of the weapon. Calling it 85 pts for a Lascannon was grossly misrepresenting it.
9x Berzerkers: chainswords + chainaxes, PF and chainsword on champ, icon of wrath
9x Berzerkers: chainswords + chainaxes, PF and chainsword on champ, icon of wrath
9x Berzerkers: chainswords + chainaxes, PF and chainsword on champ, icon of wrath
1.) Are the soulburners worth it? 2d3 mortal wounds on 2's per contemptor could be clutch, but that's 120 points right there.
2.) The jump lord is there to "guard" the brutes and aura buff them, but would it be more worthwhile to bring a warpsmith to repair them?
With warpsmith and no soulburners, I could bring about 30 cultists instead for some decent board control and recycling.
Thoughts? Just a fun list, not for tournies or anything.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Helbrute: 2x power scourge, 2x combi-bolter
Helbrute: 2x power scourge, 2x combi-bolter
Helbrute: 2x power scourge, 2x combi-bolter
Sadly, combi-bolters can only be attached to helbrute fists ("This model may incorporate a combi-bolter or heavy flamer into each Helbrute fist"). Also, despite what Battlescribe says I'm pretty sure that Helbrutes can't have 2 power scourges (reasoning below).
"This model may replace its multi-melta with a second Helbrute fist [...]
This model may replace its Helbrute fist with a Helbrute hammer or power scourge."
From the above, I can understand how people could assume that 2 power scourges can be taken - replacing the multi-melta with a fist and then both fists with scourges - but as far as I'm aware, all replacements happen at the same time and so the 2nd fist couldn't be chosen to be replaced with a scourge as it is (at the time of choosing to replace fists with scourges) still a multi-melta. To back this up, I present you with the double combi-plasma chaos lord.
"This model may replace its chainsword with one item from the Pistols or Melee Weapons lists"
Ok, so I'll replace the chainsword with a bolt pistol.
"This model may replace its bolt pistol with one item from the Pistols, Combi-weapons"
So I replace the 1st pistol with 1 item from the combi-weapons list, and then I replace the 2nd pistol with 1 item from the combi-weapons list, et voila!
I don't actually believe that this is allowed, but as it follows the same train of logic as having 2 power scourges then if you believe one can be done then you believe both can.
I realise it sounds like it, but I'm not actually trying to be a facetious arse, honest. I'm just showing my reasoning for why I don't believe 2 power scourges is allowed, but I'll happily be disproven because 11 S8 AP-2 D2 atacks is tasty.
EDIT: If it's a just for fun game like you say then I would assume it's fine so long as your opponent says so, obvs.
Can't comment on the soulburners since I've never played them, but as far as Jump Lord/Warpsmith goes, I think the aura buffs on the helbrutes would be more effective than repairing only one of them 1-3 wounds a turn since they don't degrade.
EDIT 2: I was big wrong and should pay more attention to FAQs.
"This model may replace each Helbrute fist with a
Helbrute hammer or power scourge"
Sweet! Looks like I should start making scribbles in codices as much I hate the idea of defacing a book.
Also looks like I should read things before I make overly long internet posts.
Honestly, unless a person puts in a lot of effort (by my standards), there’s no way to stay current on everything. I usually just go along with any corrections my opponent throws my way and try not to slow down the game too much with my noobery.
That being said, the 6 combi bolters I can’t take also free up another 12 points. I appreciate having a short shooting phase.
If I really wanted to, I might be able to squeeze in a Renegades and Heretics brigade for another 6 CP. Not as tactically useful as a WE/renegade cultist blob, but those CP might end up being more useful, should I have the points.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Eh, I disagree. That's 85 points for a Lascannon basically.
That's terrible for a kill point game.
When the alternative is 10 Cultists, 5 CSMs with a lascannon is great.
I'm not comparing them with everything else in the Codex. I'm saying, given a choice between MSU Cultists and CSMs, Cultists are better at progressive scoring objective games and CSMs with a lascannon are marginally better in kill points games.
Actually, to be correct, your alternative is now 17 Cultists. So for the spare 15 points that's 20 bodies instead of of just 5 bodies with only one good weapon for 85 points.
The accurate comparison is 5 space marines to 13 cultists. The option to take a Lascannon on top of that is then available to one of these units, for no other price than the cost of the weapon. Calling it 85 pts for a Lascannon was grossly misrepresenting it.
It honestly isn't because of how useless the other Marines in the squad are.
Its honestly more about how you use them and how to make them work right more than anything. Cultists are the best board contol unit we have, 2x40 in a black legion force isnt going anywhere fast. 20 black legion marines however have their own unique advantages.
1. They can advance and still shoot, making them more mobile. Add warp time in and these guys are damn near as fast as eldar.
2. Let the galaxy burn. 1cp to reroll all hits? Yes please.
3. Add abaddon in for ignore moral, a slaanesh sorcerer in for the 5+++, support can make both options excell even more.
I have caught enough of my opponents off guard recently with my 20 chaos marines that i am sold on them, bodies win games not awsome big guns. And with that much infantry set up you can spend the rest of your points on whatever you want for dealing with meta stuff (like a bloodletter bomb for knights, or a few tson deamon princes and tzaangors for t1 assualts)
Azuza001 wrote: Its honestly more about how you use them and how to make them work right more than anything. Cultists are the best board contol unit we have, 2x40 in a black legion force isnt going anywhere fast. 20 black legion marines however have their own unique advantages.
1. They can advance and still shoot, making them more mobile. Add warp time in and these guys are damn near as fast as eldar.
2. Let the galaxy burn. 1cp to reroll all hits? Yes please.
3. Add abaddon in for ignore moral, a slaanesh sorcerer in for the 5+++, support can make both options excell even more.
I have caught enough of my opponents off guard recently with my 20 chaos marines that i am sold on them, bodies win games not awsome big guns. And with that much infantry set up you can spend the rest of your points on whatever you want for dealing with meta stuff (like a bloodletter bomb for knights, or a few tson deamon princes and tzaangors for t1 assualts)
Those are ALL things you can do for Cultists as well. The only thing Marines have the advantage in is weapon options, which is better done with Chosen and Havocs anyway.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Honestly, unless a person puts in a lot of effort (by my standards), there’s no way to stay current on everything. I usually just go along with any corrections my opponent throws my way and try not to slow down the game too much with my noobery.
That being said, the 6 combi bolters I can’t take also free up another 12 points. I appreciate having a short shooting phase.
If I really wanted to, I might be able to squeeze in a Renegades and Heretics brigade for another 6 CP. Not as tactically useful as a WE/renegade cultist blob, but those CP might end up being more useful, should I have the points.
You know, you can also relocate some of those combi bolters. Chaos Rhinos for instance have the ability to take a second combi bolter, which is pretty decent dakka per Rhino. Havoc Launchers are also down to 5 points, which makes them an interesting choice as well!
That said, I think I would prefer a Khorne Daemons Deatchment, and changing over some of your mechanical friends to Maulerfiends + Defilers. Defilers and Maulers also enjoyed a pretty big price drop, and the ability to combo herald loci boosts to daemon engines is a pretty solid synergy. It would also let you incorporate the blood letter banner bomb into your list and add a bit of that Khorne Daemonkin flavor to your overall list.
Azuza001 wrote: Its honestly more about how you use them and how to make them work right more than anything. Cultists are the best board contol unit we have, 2x40 in a black legion force isnt going anywhere fast. 20 black legion marines however have their own unique advantages.
1. They can advance and still shoot, making them more mobile. Add warp time in and these guys are damn near as fast as eldar.
2. Let the galaxy burn. 1cp to reroll all hits? Yes please.
3. Add abaddon in for ignore moral, a slaanesh sorcerer in for the 5+++, support can make both options excell even more.
I have caught enough of my opponents off guard recently with my 20 chaos marines that i am sold on them, bodies win games not awsome big guns. And with that much infantry set up you can spend the rest of your points on whatever you want for dealing with meta stuff (like a bloodletter bomb for knights, or a few tson deamon princes and tzaangors for t1 assualts)
LTGB, whilst having a fabulously inclusive acronym, feels so redundant. Like, you’re already paying for a detachment of Black Legion, why would you spend CP on rerolls for hordes when you can get Abby to give them the rerolls and also overcome their vulnerability to morale and give you more CP and scarecrow deep strikers? Honestly expected something for Chosen and Terminators in the BL Stratagem.
That said, in the early days of 8ed, I had some amazing results from Heretac hordes in smaller games. If the board’s pretty tight, WT & DA made them perfectly viable for rushdown. Stopped that when I had more Cultists, like, but it was still pretty fun to make HH formations work.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Total wrote: "This model may replace each Helbrute fist with a
Helbrute hammer or power scourge"
Sweet! Looks like I should start making scribbles in codices as much I hate the idea of defacing a book.
Also looks like I should read things before I make overly long internet posts.
Try writing your errata on a post-it note where the backing is sticky and then cutting it out to put it in your nice hardcover artbook so you can peel it clean when it gets retired from the rules shelf (or another FAQ changes it again)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Eh, I disagree. That's 85 points for a Lascannon basically.
That's terrible for a kill point game.
When the alternative is 10 Cultists, 5 CSMs with a lascannon is great.
I'm not comparing them with everything else in the Codex. I'm saying, given a choice between MSU Cultists and CSMs, Cultists are better at progressive scoring objective games and CSMs with a lascannon are marginally better in kill points games.
Actually, to be correct, your alternative is now 17 Cultists. So for the spare 15 points that's 20 bodies instead of of just 5 bodies with only one good weapon for 85 points.
The accurate comparison is 5 space marines to 13 cultists. The option to take a Lascannon on top of that is then available to one of these units, for no other price than the cost of the weapon. Calling it 85 pts for a Lascannon was grossly misrepresenting it.
No, the accurate comparison was between MSU, which is what vaklor4 originally asked about.
Changing the context to points distorts the answer and derails the conversation.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Eh, I disagree. That's 85 points for a Lascannon basically.
That's terrible for a kill point game.
When the alternative is 10 Cultists, 5 CSMs with a lascannon is great.
I'm not comparing them with everything else in the Codex. I'm saying, given a choice between MSU Cultists and CSMs, Cultists are better at progressive scoring objective games and CSMs with a lascannon are marginally better in kill points games.
Actually, to be correct, your alternative is now 17 Cultists. So for the spare 15 points that's 20 bodies instead of of just 5 bodies with only one good weapon for 85 points.
The accurate comparison is 5 space marines to 13 cultists. The option to take a Lascannon on top of that is then available to one of these units, for no other price than the cost of the weapon. Calling it 85 pts for a Lascannon was grossly misrepresenting it.
No, the accurate comparison was between MSU, which is what vaklor4 originally asked about.
Changing the context to points distorts the answer and derails the conversation.
We acknowledged that comparison as such as well. It was Slayer who changed the goal posts to being points vs points, something he again misrepresented, I was simply responding to the given context and making it accurate.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Eh, I disagree. That's 85 points for a Lascannon basically.
That's terrible for a kill point game.
When the alternative is 10 Cultists, 5 CSMs with a lascannon is great.
I'm not comparing them with everything else in the Codex. I'm saying, given a choice between MSU Cultists and CSMs, Cultists are better at progressive scoring objective games and CSMs with a lascannon are marginally better in kill points games.
Actually, to be correct, your alternative is now 17 Cultists. So for the spare 15 points that's 20 bodies instead of of just 5 bodies with only one good weapon for 85 points.
The accurate comparison is 5 space marines to 13 cultists. The option to take a Lascannon on top of that is then available to one of these units, for no other price than the cost of the weapon. Calling it 85 pts for a Lascannon was grossly misrepresenting it.
No, the accurate comparison was between MSU, which is what vaklor4 originally asked about.
Changing the context to points distorts the answer and derails the conversation.
We acknowledged that comparison as such as well. It was Slayer who changed the goal posts to being points vs points, something he again misrepresented, I was simply responding to the given context and making it accurate.
It is right and proper to blame SlayerFan123 for everything bad on Dakka. It's entirely another to condone and amplify his distortions and misrepresentations by contributing to them.
Anyone ever tried a triple knight list with berserkers?
So, one knight will have the double avenger cannons for chaff clearing, and all the raise ion shields will go to it. While the other two are renegade knight Gallants to serve as two big distraction carnefixes.
Then the rest of the army will be zerkers in Rhinos. Think it will work? Or totally will fail? lol
I'm getting a little tired of things that are actually terrifying effective being referred to as "distraction carnifexes"
Friggin carnifexes arent even distraction carnifexes anymore.
McGibs wrote: I'm getting a little tired of things that are actually terrifying effective being referred to as "distraction carnifexes"
Friggin carnifexes arent even distraction carnifexes anymore.
Heehee, ok my bad. Two renegade Gallants aren't really just distraction carnefixes. They are expected to do something too.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Eh, I disagree. That's 85 points for a Lascannon basically.
That's terrible for a kill point game.
When the alternative is 10 Cultists, 5 CSMs with a lascannon is great.
I'm not comparing them with everything else in the Codex. I'm saying, given a choice between MSU Cultists and CSMs, Cultists are better at progressive scoring objective games and CSMs with a lascannon are marginally better in kill points games.
Actually, to be correct, your alternative is now 17 Cultists. So for the spare 15 points that's 20 bodies instead of of just 5 bodies with only one good weapon for 85 points.
The accurate comparison is 5 space marines to 13 cultists. The option to take a Lascannon on top of that is then available to one of these units, for no other price than the cost of the weapon. Calling it 85 pts for a Lascannon was grossly misrepresenting it.
No, the accurate comparison was between MSU, which is what vaklor4 originally asked about.
Changing the context to points distorts the answer and derails the conversation.
We acknowledged that comparison as such as well. It was Slayer who changed the goal posts to being points vs points, something he again misrepresented, I was simply responding to the given context and making it accurate.
They ARE bad. I'm not going to let someone just buy bad models and expect them to do something and instead get the opposite.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Eh, I disagree. That's 85 points for a Lascannon basically.
That's terrible for a kill point game.
When the alternative is 10 Cultists, 5 CSMs with a lascannon is great.
I'm not comparing them with everything else in the Codex. I'm saying, given a choice between MSU Cultists and CSMs, Cultists are better at progressive scoring objective games and CSMs with a lascannon are marginally better in kill points games.
Actually, to be correct, your alternative is now 17 Cultists. So for the spare 15 points that's 20 bodies instead of of just 5 bodies with only one good weapon for 85 points.
The accurate comparison is 5 space marines to 13 cultists. The option to take a Lascannon on top of that is then available to one of these units, for no other price than the cost of the weapon. Calling it 85 pts for a Lascannon was grossly misrepresenting it.
No, the accurate comparison was between MSU, which is what vaklor4 originally asked about.
Changing the context to points distorts the answer and derails the conversation.
We acknowledged that comparison as such as well. It was Slayer who changed the goal posts to being points vs points, something he again misrepresented, I was simply responding to the given context and making it accurate.
It is right and proper to blame SlayerFan123 for everything bad on Dakka. It's entirely another to condone and amplify his distortions and misrepresentations by contributing to them.
Was expecting better of you Shuppet.
was not my intention to condone or even amplify his misrepresentations. He moved the goal posts, I simply tried to demonstrate that they it still didn't result in him kicking a goal.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Eh, I disagree. That's 85 points for a Lascannon basically.
That's terrible for a kill point game.
When the alternative is 10 Cultists, 5 CSMs with a lascannon is great.
I'm not comparing them with everything else in the Codex. I'm saying, given a choice between MSU Cultists and CSMs, Cultists are better at progressive scoring objective games and CSMs with a lascannon are marginally better in kill points games.
Actually, to be correct, your alternative is now 17 Cultists. So for the spare 15 points that's 20 bodies instead of of just 5 bodies with only one good weapon for 85 points.
The accurate comparison is 5 space marines to 13 cultists. The option to take a Lascannon on top of that is then available to one of these units, for no other price than the cost of the weapon. Calling it 85 pts for a Lascannon was grossly misrepresenting it.
No, the accurate comparison was between MSU, which is what vaklor4 originally asked about.
Changing the context to points distorts the answer and derails the conversation.
We acknowledged that comparison as such as well. It was Slayer who changed the goal posts to being points vs points, something he again misrepresented, I was simply responding to the given context and making it accurate.
They ARE bad. I'm not going to let someone just buy bad models and expect them to do something and instead get the opposite.
whether they are bad or not doesn't change that your logic was still flawed.
Personally, if I am going MSU but wanted a good decent long range weapon for this MSUCSM unit to shoot, I would go with autocannon for just 10 points. Its two shots and each shot does 2 damage. And I would have no issues at all with running such a squad at an objective to try and capture it. Well, maybe I would add a chain axe to the champ. For just 1 more point, you get the champ hitting with str 5 at ap -1. That's not bad.
Abby cant be within 6" of everyone at once. I use him to keep then80 cultists moral and give them rerolls. The 20 black legi9n marines get the 5+++ making them resilient enough to be a bad target much like the cultists. And for 1cp keeping a seperate squad of 20 with advance/shoot plus rerolls, all i am saying is they have a separate, tactical value that gets ignored because "its not a mathematical best option so the opponent doesnt think of them when list building ".
Take it as you will. I am not the best player ever, i dont play itc or etc. But i do my best to make the players in my area who do/are think twice.
Azuza001 wrote: Abby cant be within 6" of everyone at once. I use him to keep then80 cultists moral and give them rerolls. The 20 black legi9n marines get the 5+++ making them resilient enough to be a bad target much like the cultists. And for 1cp keeping a seperate squad of 20 with advance/shoot plus rerolls, all i am saying is they have a separate, tactical value that gets ignored because "its not a mathematical best option so the opponent doesnt think of them when list building ".
Take it as you will. I am not the best player ever, i dont play itc or etc. But i do my best to make the players in my area who do/are think twice.
Sorry but any of the "best" players in your area won't be scared of 20 Marines if they were actually any good.
Hey guys I was mucking about with this list in battlescribe today and wanted to know what you all thought of it. Ive been trying normal codex helbrutes and havent been impressed so i thought id give fw a go. :
Chaos Lord [5 PL, 74pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Mark of Khorne
+ Heavy Support +
Havocs [7 PL, 105pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter
Havocs [7 PL, 105pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter
Havocs [7 PL, 105pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter
posermcbogus wrote: I'm totally new to Chaos Marines, and am looking for a bit of advice.
Currently adding them to my Renegades and Heretics army (which is v. static gunline-y) as a hammer to the renegades' anvil (mortar spam and basilisks with bubblewrap bodies)
As far as I can tell, plasma is still king of 8th ed, so should I just try to cram a lot of plasma into everything?
I've got a hellbrute (no arms yet)
the plastic terminator lord/sorcerer
FW's Necrosius
5 raptor/warptalons (undecided)
27 marines (no arms yet)
5 terminators (no arms yet)
I'd ideally like to play them a bit fast and aggressive, to take the heat off my artillery, and as like a fun counterpart to my otherwise static trench rats. For a bit more context, I'd also like them nurgle themed, so if there are any cool synergies with that that'd be cool to hear about (not keen on death guard stuff tho, just bc I'm super unfamiliar with all their new stuff, and prefer the older chaos marines' style).
Cheers!
TBF: you will get a lot of cp from Renegades, so there is nothing stopping you from running your marines as Chosen with combi bolters / Plasma.
The hellbrute i'd either kit as a dakka brute with a reaper and missile launcher or as cheap as possible.
Terminators are, ehh , the only real effective way i found is either as cheap as possible, or with as many combiplas and mark of slaanesh in order to quadrupple tap with the guns.
Raptors/ warptalons, they can work but generally require some daemon allies that can help them out.
1-2 sorcerers would be nice add on, except ofcourse you intend to run psyker covens /malefics to cast the R&H powers.
Azuza001 wrote: Abby cant be within 6" of everyone at once. I use him to keep then80 cultists moral and give them rerolls. The 20 black legi9n marines get the 5+++ making them resilient enough to be a bad target much like the cultists. And for 1cp keeping a seperate squad of 20 with advance/shoot plus rerolls, all i am saying is they have a separate, tactical value that gets ignored because "its not a mathematical best option so the opponent doesnt think of them when list building ".
Take it as you will. I am not the best player ever, i dont play itc or etc. But i do my best to make the players in my area who do/are think twice.
Sorry but any of the "best" players in your area won't be scared of 20 Marines if they were actually any good.
I never said they are scared. I said they dont get factored in as something that needs to be thought about seeing in a chaos list. I personally like the squad of 20. They have obj sec, a full squad can put out 80 shots (it will never be a full squad, i know that) rerolling all failed hits while only needing to be semi close to a sorc for support, they can move quite fast, and most opponents don't plan on facing them. And if they do get focused and shot at then they are doing a good job distracting for more valuable options on the table. If not between endless canophy and vets of the long war they are a viable threat that the opponent will have to deal with.
I ran this list against an eldar player running 3 hemlocks and a bunch of dark reapers. He lost turn 3 because i had 80 cultists, 20 marines, rest were charecters that he couldnt target. I had first turn, got the feel no pain off on the marines, and it helped keep the squad alive for the first turn.
I dont need to go into the whole thing, if anyone doesnt like the idea of 20 basic men thats fine, its an option that i am having luck using. But i find it insulting to say i must play vs bad opponents for something to work. And saying sorry before saying something rude doesnt make it ok.
80 shots that are stopped by a couple of measly charges. Have fun fighting back with those S4 attacks!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: and now we circle back around to the start.
"whether they are bad or not doesn't change that your logic was still flawed."
they still aren't 85 points for a Lascannon, thats just idiotic no matter what silly measure you try to use.
My bad, 85 points for a Lascannon AND 4 Bolters!
Still useless. Loyalists have ALL the tools to do the same better and they're bad at it. So suggesting it for Chaos Marines is honestly silly and not well thought out.
Think we can put this back and forth to bed? All parties have made their opinions heard, at this point we’ve gone in circles multiple times. No one is going to convince anyone else, here.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 80 shots that are stopped by a couple of measly charges. Have fun fighting back with those S4 attacks!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: and now we circle back around to the start.
"whether they are bad or not doesn't change that your logic was still flawed."
they still aren't 85 points for a Lascannon, thats just idiotic no matter what silly measure you try to use.
My bad, 85 points for a Lascannon AND 4 Bolters!
Still useless. Loyalists have ALL the tools to do the same better and they're bad at it. So suggesting it for Chaos Marines is honestly silly and not well thought out.
Well, my best list has 3 laspreds, 3 Helbrutes with twin lascannons and 3 squads of 10 CSMs with 2 lascannons each. Everything gets clustered around Abaddon to attack at distance with rerolls to hit.
Not sure Loyalists can do gunlines better, unless you mean straight AM. The only armies that really give me trouble are Orks, Imperial Knights and Dark Eldar.
Reading the pure shades of black and white put out in this thread by slayer-fan123 is just too familiar. I think some people just find nuances a bit too disconcerting. However it must be difficult to play this game without getting frustrated while needing to categorize everything into two neat columns. There is much more to this game than deconstructing it to a simple math equation of how much pew each unit has, and you are only doing yourself a disservice as a player by approaching discussion like this. just some advice
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 80 shots that are stopped by a couple of measly charges. Have fun fighting back with those S4 attacks!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: and now we circle back around to the start.
"whether they are bad or not doesn't change that your logic was still flawed."
they still aren't 85 points for a Lascannon, thats just idiotic no matter what silly measure you try to use.
My bad, 85 points for a Lascannon AND 4 Bolters!
Still useless. Loyalists have ALL the tools to do the same better and they're bad at it. So suggesting it for Chaos Marines is honestly silly and not well thought out.
Well, my best list has 3 laspreds, 3 Helbrutes with twin lascannons and 3 squads of 10 CSMs with 2 lascannons each. Everything gets clustered around Abaddon to attack at distance with rerolls to hit.
Not sure Loyalists can do gunlines better, unless you mean straight AM. The only armies that really give me trouble are Orks, Imperial Knights and Dark Eldar.
Uh yeah Loyalists can do that a LOT better.
1. Multiple Chapter Master auras to access
2. Generic Dreads with a built-in BS2+
3. Lieutenant auras
4. Devastator benefits
5. More capable shooting units even outside that
First Among Gators wrote: Reading the pure shades of black and white put out in this thread by slayer-fan123 is just too familiar. I think some people just find nuances a bit too disconcerting. However it must be difficult to play this game without getting frustrated while needing to categorize everything into two neat columns. There is much more to this game than deconstructing it to a simple math equation of how much pew each unit has, and you are only doing yourself a disservice as a player by approaching discussion like this. just some advice
Well said, but totally un-Chaosy. Taking away points for a lack of arrogance.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 80 shots that are stopped by a couple of measly charges. Have fun fighting back with those S4 attacks!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: and now we circle back around to the start.
"whether they are bad or not doesn't change that your logic was still flawed."
they still aren't 85 points for a Lascannon, thats just idiotic no matter what silly measure you try to use.
My bad, 85 points for a Lascannon AND 4 Bolters!
Still useless. Loyalists have ALL the tools to do the same better and they're bad at it. So suggesting it for Chaos Marines is honestly silly and not well thought out.
Well, my best list has 3 laspreds, 3 Helbrutes with twin lascannons and 3 squads of 10 CSMs with 2 lascannons each. Everything gets clustered around Abaddon to attack at distance with rerolls to hit.
Not sure Loyalists can do gunlines better, unless you mean straight AM. The only armies that really give me trouble are Orks, Imperial Knights and Dark Eldar.
Uh yeah Loyalists can do that a LOT better.
1. Multiple Chapter Master auras to access
2. Generic Dreads with a built-in BS2+
3. Lieutenant auras
4. Devastator benefits
5. More capable shooting units even outside that
You can't be serious.
This is an example of how, at a certain level, points and gimmicks lose their value.
Abaddon for full rerolls, 20+ lascannons, go second and don't move unless you have to. Wipe out your opponent's long-range shooting first turn, force them into fighting mid-range the rest of the game.
Does not matter how closely their list mirrors yours if they are hitting less frequently and you are rerolling with a lot of multiple-damage, AP negative weapons. The mechanics of the game favor the side that wipes out the other's long-range stuff first.
And Abigail can only buff so many units himself, whereas even Vanilla Marines can do significantly more buffing for their shooting Marines.
It's all part of why the Chaos Marine is bad. They're a bad unit because all the buffs you put into them can be put into better units. The fact we even have to discuss it when most of the codices have been released and they got nothing again in Chapter Approved is silly.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And Abigail can only buff so many units himself, whereas even Vanilla Marines can do significantly more buffing for their shooting Marines.
It's all part of why the Chaos Marine is bad. They're a bad unit because all the buffs you put into them can be put into better units. The fact we even have to discuss it when most of the codices have been released and they got nothing again in Chapter Approved is silly.
These comments are nonsensical. Do you even play Chaos?
The entire list I described, plus a Daemon Price and Cultists, fits into Abaddon's 6 inch reroll bubble.
First Among Gators wrote: Reading the pure shades of black and white put out in this thread by slayer-fan123 is just too familiar. I think some people just find nuances a bit too disconcerting. However it must be difficult to play this game without getting frustrated while needing to categorize everything into two neat columns. There is much more to this game than deconstructing it to a simple math equation of how much pew each unit has, and you are only doing yourself a disservice as a player by approaching discussion like this. just some advice
Shades of grey stop mattering to some people in a tactics thread who are seeking full optimization. That's their hobby, so I'm not going to muck with it. I enjoy reading these threads to see what the optimum combination of models/units is, and then I'll likely find a way to put a watered down version of it into my own lists, because I'm a far more casual gamer. People here enjoy crunching the numbers and wringing the best value out of their codex, so when you're asking for advice here or reading a discussion on what's the best value for points, you're going to see it come down to stuff like that. Anecdotes and outlier statistics likely don't register, and that's fine.
You play the game your way, include the units you want to use knowing that if you need to know the optimum build for something, this thread is here full of people who will do the number crunching to find it. I personally have found the back and forth between 10 Cultists and 5 CSMs w/ heavy weapon quite interesting. I might go one way, I might go the other, I might try both. It's just interesting to see a far more in-depth discussion on something I have not given much thought to, and with that information readily available, I can use it to improve my lists and my own game.
First Among Gators wrote: Reading the pure shades of black and white put out in this thread by slayer-fan123 is just too familiar. I think some people just find nuances a bit too disconcerting. However it must be difficult to play this game without getting frustrated while needing to categorize everything into two neat columns. There is much more to this game than deconstructing it to a simple math equation of how much pew each unit has, and you are only doing yourself a disservice as a player by approaching discussion like this. just some advice
Shades of grey stop mattering to some people in a tactics thread who are seeking full optimization. That's their hobby, so I'm not going to muck with it. I enjoy reading these threads to see what the optimum combination of models/units is, and then I'll likely find a way to put a watered down version of it into my own lists, because I'm a far more casual gamer. People here enjoy crunching the numbers and wringing the best value out of their codex, so when you're asking for advice here or reading a discussion on what's the best value for points, you're going to see it come down to stuff like that. Anecdotes and outlier statistics likely don't register, and that's fine.
You play the game your way, include the units you want to use knowing that if you need to know the optimum build for something, this thread is here full of people who will do the number crunching to find it. I personally have found the back and forth between 10 Cultists and 5 CSMs w/ heavy weapon quite interesting. I might go one way, I might go the other, I might try both. It's just interesting to see a far more in-depth discussion on something I have not given much thought to, and with that information readily available, I can use it to improve my lists and my own game.
Nah, he's right. There is more steps in between black and white to each unit at a competitive level, and while you as a casual player aren't at a level where you are able to recognize this and Slayer as a (highly vocal) low-level player is also continually stumped by it, the opinions of most the top players of the game are in direct conflict with this mentality of trying to box every unit and decision into a neat little chart. There's a reason why players like Don Hooson, Nick Nanavati and Sean Nayden go out and win events with units that players of a smaller caliber have previously declared as garbage, that posters like this then rush to find explanations for only afterwards to fit then back into their "categorization", for everything to still make sense to them afterwards. Aside from all that, slayer's opinions in this thread are nonsense from both a competitive standpoint anyway. Don't mistake confident declarations as accurate and optimal competitive advice.
I suggest everyone to use the 'ignore' option liberally.
But back to the subject of tactics, fellow traitors I have question for you:
Anyone used lately the either of the Termite Drill options?
Hellforged Termite caught my eye, but the rule not allowing disembarking on same turn is weird. Any experiences using this and how did you try to avoid enemy charging and circling your Termite?
The Hellforged version has also weird lack of melee weapons, except for the pistol. The whole rule design doesn't look so well thought out.
I suggest everyone to use the 'ignore' option liberally.
ignoring a problem doesn't solve a problem.
I can't say i have faced the themite, but not disembarking in the same turn makes it not particulary viable. Except if you make sure that you can't get charged then, which is kinda not the goal when you try to deliver a squad into the heat with such a transport no?
I suggest everyone to use the 'ignore' option liberally.
ignoring a problem doesn't solve a problem.
I can't say i have faced the themite, but not disembarking in the same turn makes it not particulary viable. Except if you make sure that you can't get charged then, which is kinda not the goal when you try to deliver a squad into the heat with such a transport no?
Yeah, I mean it does 1 mortal wound to every enemy unit within 12" upon arriving, so I would preferrably put it as close as possible to not miss out on that.
Of course DS'ing further away is option, as next turn the occupants will have 3"+6"+2D6" threat range, but then we miss the mortal wounds. But even for this one would need screen of some sort, atleast if I was playing against it and it came straight in front of my troops with scary melee unit inside I would try to charge it and box the unit in. Because of the slow movespeed of Termite (6") and general DS restrictions it makes no sense to put shooty units inside (3rd turn out the earliest), one can get similar level of protection using cheapest rhino to shield one's shooty troops in the case one wants to deploy it on own deployment zone. So looking at it, aggressive DS seems like the only reasonable option.
First Among Gators wrote: Reading the pure shades of black and white put out in this thread by slayer-fan123 is just too familiar. I think some people just find nuances a bit too disconcerting. However it must be difficult to play this game without getting frustrated while needing to categorize everything into two neat columns. There is much more to this game than deconstructing it to a simple math equation of how much pew each unit has, and you are only doing yourself a disservice as a player by approaching discussion like this. just some advice
Shades of grey stop mattering to some people in a tactics thread who are seeking full optimization. That's their hobby, so I'm not going to muck with it. I enjoy reading these threads to see what the optimum combination of models/units is, and then I'll likely find a way to put a watered down version of it into my own lists, because I'm a far more casual gamer. People here enjoy crunching the numbers and wringing the best value out of their codex, so when you're asking for advice here or reading a discussion on what's the best value for points, you're going to see it come down to stuff like that. Anecdotes and outlier statistics likely don't register, and that's fine.
You play the game your way, include the units you want to use knowing that if you need to know the optimum build for something, this thread is here full of people who will do the number crunching to find it. I personally have found the back and forth between 10 Cultists and 5 CSMs w/ heavy weapon quite interesting. I might go one way, I might go the other, I might try both. It's just interesting to see a far more in-depth discussion on something I have not given much thought to, and with that information readily available, I can use it to improve my lists and my own game.
Nah, he's right. There is more steps in between black and white to each unit at a competitive level, and while you as a casual player aren't at a level where you are able to recognize this and Slayer as a (highly vocal) low-level player is also continually stumped by it, the opinions of most the top players of the game are in direct conflict with this mentality of trying to box every unit and decision into a neat little chart. There's a reason why players like Don Hooson, Nick Nanavati and Sean Nayden go out and win events with units that players of a smaller caliber have previously declared as garbage, that posters like this then rush to find explanations for only afterwards to fit then back into their "categorization", for everything to still make sense to them afterwards.
Aside from all that, slayer's opinions in this thread are nonsense from both a competitive standpoint anyway. Don't mistake confident declarations as accurate and optimal competitive advice.
Well said.
I wouldn't be too harsh on Slayer. Despite recent comments, I've learned much from him and respect his dogged tenacity in discussion.
In all honesty, he's no more guilty of spewing nonsense then the rest of Dakka. Disputes about the worth of a questionable unit tend to be resolved by the harshest critics drowning out the voices of those possessing the insight and patience to make it work. Understanding that dynamic is key to getting anything from value out of this forum, no one should mistake any thread for an accurate and canonical discussion about optimal list design and tactics. The picture that gets painted is a low-resolution version of how something will actually perform on the tabletop, there's no such thing as "garbage tier" in reality.
While this example may seem a little dated, in 5th edition, Chaos Spawn were considered the worst unit in the game. Plenty of reasons to say that, they had no saving throw a special rule called Mindless that made them always move towards the closest enemy unit. But they had 5 wounds, high toughness, lots of attacks, they moved as beasts, and you could take as many of them as you want so long as you had a valid FOC.
I had fun with a list made up of a jump pack Chaos Lord and 2 MSUCSM units with meltas and 32 Spawn. Despite common logic, the massed Spawn were very successful, my record was something like 10 of 12 with it. The art was in the placement at the start of the game, you had to spread them out a certain way to ensure you would be tying up your opponent's entire army. The fact they moved 18 inches a turn made this tricky, especially when there was a lot of terrain.
It's hard to capture why something works in a discussion on Dakka. Raw stats tell part of the story, but the forum is very poor at communicating the tacit details about why something worked when it's non-obvious based on the datasheet. The best you can hope for is indicators about what might work based on the wisdom of the crowds, which isn't always as accurate as it wants to be.
> why would you want to not deploy a unit the turn it arrives from a deepstriking Transport (termite)?
Warpflamer Rubrics. T2 land them near where they need to be, T3 disembark 3” and advance 5+D6” and do horrendous things. Maybe also Warptime them, if there’s a case for it.
Probably not optimal, but a hell of a scarecrow that forces your opponent to either wipe them out or evacuate.
First Among Gators wrote: Reading the pure shades of black and white put out in this thread by slayer-fan123 is just too familiar. I think some people just find nuances a bit too disconcerting. However it must be difficult to play this game without getting frustrated while needing to categorize everything into two neat columns. There is much more to this game than deconstructing it to a simple math equation of how much pew each unit has, and you are only doing yourself a disservice as a player by approaching discussion like this. just some advice
Shades of grey stop mattering to some people in a tactics thread who are seeking full optimization. That's their hobby, so I'm not going to muck with it. I enjoy reading these threads to see what the optimum combination of models/units is, and then I'll likely find a way to put a watered down version of it into my own lists, because I'm a far more casual gamer. People here enjoy crunching the numbers and wringing the best value out of their codex, so when you're asking for advice here or reading a discussion on what's the best value for points, you're going to see it come down to stuff like that. Anecdotes and outlier statistics likely don't register, and that's fine.
You play the game your way, include the units you want to use knowing that if you need to know the optimum build for something, this thread is here full of people who will do the number crunching to find it. I personally have found the back and forth between 10 Cultists and 5 CSMs w/ heavy weapon quite interesting. I might go one way, I might go the other, I might try both. It's just interesting to see a far more in-depth discussion on something I have not given much thought to, and with that information readily available, I can use it to improve my lists and my own game.
Nah, he's right. There is more steps in between black and white to each unit at a competitive level, and while you as a casual player aren't at a level where you are able to recognize this and Slayer as a (highly vocal) low-level player is also continually stumped by it, the opinions of most the top players of the game are in direct conflict with this mentality of trying to box every unit and decision into a neat little chart. There's a reason why players like Don Hooson, Nick Nanavati and Sean Nayden go out and win events with units that players of a smaller caliber have previously declared as garbage, that posters like this then rush to find explanations for only afterwards to fit then back into their "categorization", for everything to still make sense to them afterwards.
Aside from all that, slayer's opinions in this thread are nonsense from both a competitive standpoint anyway. Don't mistake confident declarations as accurate and optimal competitive advice.
They don't top events often when said non-optimal units get used in such a degree it's actually noticed.
This is why I always bring up that one topping list in 6th that used Ahriman and Rubric Marines. Neither of them were good in 6th whatsoever. Nobody jumped to the defense of Rubric Marines ever. It was a simple "Oh. That happened" and nothing was spoken of it since. Anytime a bad unit sees a topping table though, a lot of people say they're balanced and forget simply how BAD Rubric Marines were.
So why does this happen for certain units, and other times we have people that jump immediately and exclaim "See, they're fine!" for others? I have yet to actually figure it out so far. However, we can draw a couple of conclusions about the basic Chaos Marine as a whole, in terms of Black Legion, and what we know about the basic pricing of Loyalist Scum:
1. Loyalist Marines are priced in terms of getting full rerolls for whatever reason.
2. These rerolls come from Chapter Masters and Roboute. A other bonus is Roboute's straight up wounding reroll and what Lieutenants can do.
3. Chaos Marines are priced the same way
4. However, their full reroll can only come from Abigail himself
5. This locks you into a specific Faction moreso than for Loyalists, and it's arguably a pretty bad faction trait only made up for with Abigail himself, who is admittedly a fantastic character (now).
6. You don't have access to rerolling to wound outside melee. With the slew of Characters available to Loyalist Scum to alleviate that, this makes their shooting already better.
7. MSU already works better for Marine type armies anyway, so the advantage to specialize a little more at 10 man squads is, while an upgrade, one that doesn't matter in the long run. It also makes Abigail's morale aura better for cheaper units bought in bulk too. This in turn convinced GW to make Cultists 5 points because they're stupid.
I can go into why Loyalists will do the shooting thing you want with Dreads better too. That's a different post though. I'm just focusing on why Chaos Marines are bad.
So if you look at it, you would see that to create an army like discussed, it would be more beneficial to run Loyalists. However, more and more we notice trends of Marine armies dying out competitively even with all the tricks that Loyalists have. So forgive me when I say, with full confidence, Chaos Marines are a bad unit. Any buff or Strategem you can give them and list as a pro is just a buff that can go to a better unit. We are almost done with all the codices being released, and nothing has changed for Chaos Marines since then. So that's why I have to ask: why is it even up for discussion? They certainly won't counter anything that's new, thats for sure.
I don't think they are necessarily priced with full re-rolls in mind. Its just that GW as a whole tends to overvalue certain things; - saving throws - toughness - strength both in melee and weapons
these things are all overvalued in terms of how many points a unit needs to pay for access to them compared to their effective worth on the table. The end result is that models that specialize in these three things (Space Marines as compared to Guardsmen) end up being overpriced compared to alternatives which do not pay for those things. I think it gives GW too much credit to look at the situation with re-rolls and say "these units are fairly priced when they re-roll everything, GW must have priced them accordingly". I personally don't think GW is that clever and rather the problem is one of GW overvaluing certain traits.
This is also coincidentally why Marines are bad. They pay a lot of points for stats that aren't worth a lot of points. In order for Marines to be good again they either be cheaper reflecting them paying the actual value of their stats, OR the game needs to be changed so that they toughness and armor and strength 4 melee and bolters become more valuable. Marines main problem is they aren't as durable and they don't do as much damage as their pricetag suggests they should be capable of. Still, I don't think 5 CSM with a Heavy Bolter and a champ with a Storm Bolter and a Chain Sword is a bad troop choice. Its not quite up to par or optimal, but its not as far off the mark as one versed in dakka rhetoric may be lead to believe.
First Among Gators wrote: Reading the pure shades of black and white put out in this thread by slayer-fan123 is just too familiar. I think some people just find nuances a bit too disconcerting. However it must be difficult to play this game without getting frustrated while needing to categorize everything into two neat columns. There is much more to this game than deconstructing it to a simple math equation of how much pew each unit has, and you are only doing yourself a disservice as a player by approaching discussion like this. just some advice
Shades of grey stop mattering to some people in a tactics thread who are seeking full optimization. That's their hobby, so I'm not going to muck with it. I enjoy reading these threads to see what the optimum combination of models/units is, and then I'll likely find a way to put a watered down version of it into my own lists, because I'm a far more casual gamer. People here enjoy crunching the numbers and wringing the best value out of their codex, so when you're asking for advice here or reading a discussion on what's the best value for points, you're going to see it come down to stuff like that. Anecdotes and outlier statistics likely don't register, and that's fine.
You play the game your way, include the units you want to use knowing that if you need to know the optimum build for something, this thread is here full of people who will do the number crunching to find it. I personally have found the back and forth between 10 Cultists and 5 CSMs w/ heavy weapon quite interesting. I might go one way, I might go the other, I might try both. It's just interesting to see a far more in-depth discussion on something I have not given much thought to, and with that information readily available, I can use it to improve my lists and my own game.
Nah, he's right. There is more steps in between black and white to each unit at a competitive level, and while you as a casual player aren't at a level where you are able to recognize this and Slayer as a (highly vocal) low-level player is also continually stumped by it, the opinions of most the top players of the game are in direct conflict with this mentality of trying to box every unit and decision into a neat little chart. There's a reason why players like Don Hooson, Nick Nanavati and Sean Nayden go out and win events with units that players of a smaller caliber have previously declared as garbage, that posters like this then rush to find explanations for only afterwards to fit then back into their "categorization", for everything to still make sense to them afterwards.
Aside from all that, slayer's opinions in this thread are nonsense from both a competitive standpoint anyway. Don't mistake confident declarations as accurate and optimal competitive advice.
They don't top events often when said non-optimal units get used in such a degree it's actually noticed.
This is why I always bring up that one topping list in 6th that used Ahriman and Rubric Marines. Neither of them were good in 6th whatsoever. Nobody jumped to the defense of Rubric Marines ever. It was a simple "Oh. That happened" and nothing was spoken of it since. Anytime a bad unit sees a topping table though, a lot of people say they're balanced and forget simply how BAD Rubric Marines were.
So why does this happen for certain units, and other times we have people that jump immediately and exclaim "See, they're fine!" for others? I have yet to actually figure it out so far. However, we can draw a couple of conclusions about the basic Chaos Marine as a whole, in terms of Black Legion, and what we know about the basic pricing of Loyalist Scum:
1. Loyalist Marines are priced in terms of getting full rerolls for whatever reason.
2. These rerolls come from Chapter Masters and Roboute. A other bonus is Roboute's straight up wounding reroll and what Lieutenants can do.
3. Chaos Marines are priced the same way
4. However, their full reroll can only come from Abigail himself
5. This locks you into a specific Faction moreso than for Loyalists, and it's arguably a pretty bad faction trait only made up for with Abigail himself, who is admittedly a fantastic character (now).
6. You don't have access to rerolling to wound outside melee. With the slew of Characters available to Loyalist Scum to alleviate that, this makes their shooting already better.
7. MSU already works better for Marine type armies anyway, so the advantage to specialize a little more at 10 man squads is, while an upgrade, one that doesn't matter in the long run. It also makes Abigail's morale aura better for cheaper units bought in bulk too. This in turn convinced GW to make Cultists 5 points because they're stupid.
I can go into why Loyalists will do the shooting thing you want with Dreads better too. That's a different post though. I'm just focusing on why Chaos Marines are bad.
So if you look at it, you would see that to create an army like discussed, it would be more beneficial to run Loyalists. However, more and more we notice trends of Marine armies dying out competitively even with all the tricks that Loyalists have. So forgive me when I say, with full confidence, Chaos Marines are a bad unit. Any buff or Strategem you can give them and list as a pro is just a buff that can go to a better unit. We are almost done with all the codices being released, and nothing has changed for Chaos Marines since then. So that's why I have to ask: why is it even up for discussion? They certainly won't counter anything that's new, thats for sure.
See thats a great explanation of why you feel the way you do about the units. I definitely agree with the statement that loyalist do shooting better than traitors when you consider their support. Chaos does cc better than marines for the same reason. However that doesnt mean you cant do shooty chaos, you just need to understand that other forces will outshoot you normally and you will need to use the advantages we do have to make ours better. Examples would be like taking a deamon engines for shooting for using demonforged to reroll hits and wounds, endless canophy, prescience, and vets of the long war. This can help give us a boost to make things better. So the question becomes should we talk about how to maoe what we have better/useable or should we only talk about the top units we have?
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: If only we had modern kits for them. That would make an awesome 5 man unit, IMO. Soon, one hopes!
It’s a shame that most legion traits are either garbage or hyperspecialized. I think we’ll have to wait for a new codex/edition to see those change.
Remember, the World Eaters one is strictly worse than the one Sisters get. It's almost mind boggling.
It's the nature of creep. All of this last years traits have gotten progressively better after the Necron release. Still some duds in each book, but offset by a trait or two that are insanely OP. Look at the Ork book, snakebites 6+++ is objectively worse then the defskulls 6++ but on top of that the defskulls get obsec on all infantry and a free reroll to a hit, wound and damage per phase Also a creep on salamanders) I am wondering what will happen when my GSC gets their book, hopefully they find a good middle ground and stop the creep while making all the traits comparable and viable.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: If only we had modern kits for them. That would make an awesome 5 man unit, IMO. Soon, one hopes!
It’s a shame that most legion traits are either garbage or hyperspecialized. I think we’ll have to wait for a new codex/edition to see those change.
Remember, the World Eaters one is strictly worse than the one Sisters get. It's almost mind boggling.
It's the nature of creep. All of this last years traits have gotten progressively better after the Necron release. Still some duds in each book, but offset by a trait or two that are insanely OP. Look at the Ork book, snakebites 6+++ is objectively worse then the defskulls 6++ but on top of that the defskulls get obsec on all infantry and a free reroll to a hit, wound and damage per phase Also a creep on salamanders) I am wondering what will happen when my GSC gets their book, hopefully they find a good middle ground and stop the creep while making all the traits comparable and viable.
He's been brought up a few times already, but how are folks feeling about the Kytan? It seems at his new price point, he has some pretty significant usage. Less because he is strictly as good as other knight-like options, and more because he can benefit so much better from the synergy we provide. With daemonforge alone his shooting becomes better than a single Gatling knight with a sword (an inefficient loadout, I know) with notably better melee than a double gatling knight and a much lower price tag (55 points less, not counting a top gun weapon). I already like gauntlet/sword knights and he's stronger in melee and much stronger in shooting than one of them while only being a bit more expensive.
Add in psychic support like warptime or strength and he's gonna be a tough cookie. I think that him, Mortarion and Magnus can all go into a super heavy detachment (under heretic astares keyword) along with a double avenger knight in a single detachment. Leaves 210 points; enough for a disloyal 32.
First Among Gators wrote: Reading the pure shades of black and white put out in this thread by slayer-fan123 is just too familiar. I think some people just find nuances a bit too disconcerting. However it must be difficult to play this game without getting frustrated while needing to categorize everything into two neat columns. There is much more to this game than deconstructing it to a simple math equation of how much pew each unit has, and you are only doing yourself a disservice as a player by approaching discussion like this. just some advice
Shades of grey stop mattering to some people in a tactics thread who are seeking full optimization. That's their hobby, so I'm not going to muck with it. I enjoy reading these threads to see what the optimum combination of models/units is, and then I'll likely find a way to put a watered down version of it into my own lists, because I'm a far more casual gamer. People here enjoy crunching the numbers and wringing the best value out of their codex, so when you're asking for advice here or reading a discussion on what's the best value for points, you're going to see it come down to stuff like that. Anecdotes and outlier statistics likely don't register, and that's fine.
You play the game your way, include the units you want to use knowing that if you need to know the optimum build for something, this thread is here full of people who will do the number crunching to find it. I personally have found the back and forth between 10 Cultists and 5 CSMs w/ heavy weapon quite interesting. I might go one way, I might go the other, I might try both. It's just interesting to see a far more in-depth discussion on something I have not given much thought to, and with that information readily available, I can use it to improve my lists and my own game.
Nah, he's right. There is more steps in between black and white to each unit at a competitive level, and while you as a casual player aren't at a level where you are able to recognize this and Slayer as a (highly vocal) low-level player is also continually stumped by it, the opinions of most the top players of the game are in direct conflict with this mentality of trying to box every unit and decision into a neat little chart. There's a reason why players like Don Hooson, Nick Nanavati and Sean Nayden go out and win events with units that players of a smaller caliber have previously declared as garbage, that posters like this then rush to find explanations for only afterwards to fit then back into their "categorization", for everything to still make sense to them afterwards.
Aside from all that, slayer's opinions in this thread are nonsense from both a competitive standpoint anyway. Don't mistake confident declarations as accurate and optimal competitive advice.
They don't top events often when said non-optimal units get used in such a degree it's actually noticed.
This is why I always bring up that one topping list in 6th that used Ahriman and Rubric Marines. Neither of them were good in 6th whatsoever. Nobody jumped to the defense of Rubric Marines ever. It was a simple "Oh. That happened" and nothing was spoken of it since. Anytime a bad unit sees a topping table though, a lot of people say they're balanced and forget simply how BAD Rubric Marines were.
So why does this happen for certain units, and other times we have people that jump immediately and exclaim "See, they're fine!" for others? I have yet to actually figure it out so far. However, we can draw a couple of conclusions about the basic Chaos Marine as a whole, in terms of Black Legion, and what we know about the basic pricing of Loyalist Scum:
1. Loyalist Marines are priced in terms of getting full rerolls for whatever reason.
2. These rerolls come from Chapter Masters and Roboute. A other bonus is Roboute's straight up wounding reroll and what Lieutenants can do.
3. Chaos Marines are priced the same way
4. However, their full reroll can only come from Abigail himself
5. This locks you into a specific Faction moreso than for Loyalists, and it's arguably a pretty bad faction trait only made up for with Abigail himself, who is admittedly a fantastic character (now).
6. You don't have access to rerolling to wound outside melee. With the slew of Characters available to Loyalist Scum to alleviate that, this makes their shooting already better.
7. MSU already works better for Marine type armies anyway, so the advantage to specialize a little more at 10 man squads is, while an upgrade, one that doesn't matter in the long run. It also makes Abigail's morale aura better for cheaper units bought in bulk too. This in turn convinced GW to make Cultists 5 points because they're stupid.
I can go into why Loyalists will do the shooting thing you want with Dreads better too. That's a different post though. I'm just focusing on why Chaos Marines are bad.
So if you look at it, you would see that to create an army like discussed, it would be more beneficial to run Loyalists. However, more and more we notice trends of Marine armies dying out competitively even with all the tricks that Loyalists have. So forgive me when I say, with full confidence, Chaos Marines are a bad unit. Any buff or Strategem you can give them and list as a pro is just a buff that can go to a better unit. We are almost done with all the codices being released, and nothing has changed for Chaos Marines since then. So that's why I have to ask: why is it even up for discussion? They certainly won't counter anything that's new, thats for sure.
See thats a great explanation of why you feel the way you do about the units. I definitely agree with the statement that loyalist do shooting better than traitors when you consider their support. Chaos does cc better than marines for the same reason. However that doesnt mean you cant do shooty chaos, you just need to understand that other forces will outshoot you normally and you will need to use the advantages we do have to make ours better. Examples would be like taking a deamon engines for shooting for using demonforged to reroll hits and wounds, endless canophy, prescience, and vets of the long war. This can help give us a boost to make things better. So the question becomes should we talk about how to maoe what we have better/useable or should we only talk about the top units we have?
And I never said we can't do shooty Chaos. The way it has been talked about though is the wrong way to do it.
I'll make a post later about my thoughts on that, though.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: If only we had modern kits for them. That would make an awesome 5 man unit, IMO. Soon, one hopes!
It’s a shame that most legion traits are either garbage or hyperspecialized. I think we’ll have to wait for a new codex/edition to see those change.
Remember, the World Eaters one is strictly worse than the one Sisters get. It's almost mind boggling.
It's the nature of creep. All of this last years traits have gotten progressively better after the Necron release. Still some duds in each book, but offset by a trait or two that are insanely OP. Look at the Ork book, snakebites 6+++ is objectively worse then the defskulls 6++ but on top of that the defskulls get obsec on all infantry and a free reroll to a hit, wound and damage per phase Also a creep on salamanders) I am wondering what will happen when my GSC gets their book, hopefully they find a good middle ground and stop the creep while making all the traits comparable and viable.
Space Wolfs would disagree.
Space wolves have a fine trait, they just suck because the only thing 8th hates more then marine armies are combat marines.
drakerocket wrote: He's been brought up a few times already, but how are folks feeling about the Kytan? It seems at his new price point, he has some pretty significant usage. Less because he is strictly as good as other knight-like options, and more because he can benefit so much better from the synergy we provide. With daemonforge alone his shooting becomes better than a single Gatling knight with a sword (an inefficient loadout, I know) with notably better melee than a double gatling knight and a much lower price tag (55 points less, not counting a top gun weapon). I already like gauntlet/sword knights and he's stronger in melee and much stronger in shooting than one of them while only being a bit more expensive.
Add in psychic support like warptime or strength and he's gonna be a tough cookie. I think that him, Mortarion and Magnus can all go into a super heavy detachment (under heretic astares keyword) along with a double avenger knight in a single detachment. Leaves 210 points; enough for a disloyal 32.
...Seems kinda scary.
The Kytan is amazing. Combines shooting and melee and durability into a huge model that cannot be ignored. And at the current price point, its really reasonable. I am just sad the model I have is LOS instead. :X Actually, running a world eaters army with Kharn and two Kytan Ravagers sounds like a really good mix of shooting and melee. Run up Kharn beside one giving it rerolls to hit, and then use daemon forge on the other... That's 16 str 8 shots with reroll to hit. Really tasty. Who says World eaters cant be shooty hehe. And a Kharn and two Kytan don't even hit 1000 points, so you still got a lot of points to make up the rest of the army.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: If only we had modern kits for them. That would make an awesome 5 man unit, IMO. Soon, one hopes!
It’s a shame that most legion traits are either garbage or hyperspecialized. I think we’ll have to wait for a new codex/edition to see those change.
Remember, the World Eaters one is strictly worse than the one Sisters get. It's almost mind boggling.
To be fair though, world eaters trait really help make their berserkers so much more scary. Sister of battle just don't have something like berserkers, so it doesn't really help them much. Their units outside of maybe Celestine would just fold and die if caught up in melee with WE berserkers, trait regardless.
I think that BL 20 marines unit are reasonably good for what they can do, their rules are fair. The problem is their point cost, as there are more units that can do same thing for less or are more resilient for the same price.
I tried them fielding also a couple of knights and they were pretty good in clearing infantry, they simply annihilate any targets with T 5 or 4.
The tricky part about them is to give something to the opponent to shoot at, so they can survive. I find the blood slaughterer pretty useful at it, as they 16” move brings them inside the enemy field and nothing can ignore their damage output, giving time to the marines to advance and double shoot their bolters, 80 shots with +1 to hit and wound are nasty.
Anyway I’m awar3 that they are not a top choice but they can find their spot.
The list was more or less
Lord and sorcerer on jump
2x20 marines
3 blood slaughterer
2 gallants
The big issue I have with large marine squads is Morale. Sadly, despite being super-veteran soldiers who have been fighting for thousands of years... they still run away at the drop of a hat. Abaddon being the only model to give morale immunity is really frustrating, the Dark Apostle extension of leadership does little benefit to marines and more to Cultists just due to the difference in leadership. Don't get me started on the Word Bearers legion trait, which can make a failed morale test... worse!
...So I just came back after a hiatus from this forum. How on earth did "65 points for 5 marines, basic loadout" vs "10 cultists, no stubber/flamers" turn into this? Did my question even get answered?It seems like Slayer and a couple others just completely missed the point of the question.
Well the answer as always is : It depends. Minimun squads it comes down to what your using them for and what they are going against? 5 marines will win vs 10 cultists. 10 cultists will survive longer than 5 marines vs units using plasma. Marines can outshoot cultists and have more flexability. Cultists can redeploy at full strength for 1cp.
So yeah, depends on what you want to use them for and what is going to shoot at them.
Azuza001 wrote: Well the answer as always is : It depends. Minimun squads it comes down to what your using them for and what they are going against? 5 marines will win vs 10 cultists. 10 cultists will survive longer than 5 marines vs units using plasma. Marines can outshoot cultists and have more flexability. Cultists can redeploy at full strength for 1cp.
So yeah, depends on what you want to use them for and what is going to shoot at them.
Equivalent points would be 5 Marines vs 13 Cultists, actually.
That's part of the problem here is the points you need to invest in the Marines compared to Cultists.
Right, but again it also depends on what your using them for.
If we are talking 13 cultists fighting 5 marines the marines will win.
Cultists go first, 13 shots, say 7 hits, but wounding on 5's so your talking about 2 wounds, vs a 3+ save you will be lucky to kill 1 marine.
Those marines firing on the cultists get 5 shots, probably 4 hits, wounding on 3's is again probably 3 wounds vs 6+ save odds are you killed 3 cultists.
But i doubt we are talking about them vs each other. 13 cultists will live longer vs anything with ap, like a heavy bolter, than the marines will. Both get wounded on 3's, cultists just die but marines have a 50% chance of living. Thats not to hot, that means the marines have an equivalent of 10 to the cultists 13. And with the prevalence of -ap weapons out there the marines die quicker. But marines can get longer range weapons as well to help make up for this, so again this all becomes how do you want to use them?
Oh boy, these old "Cultists vs. CSMs" discussion, i would say Cultists are the better choice because they are cheaper and are better in screening. How ever i am bored to play them, i rather take berzerker as troops only or noisemarines with demonetts.
Whats your opinion on the Heldrake?
Yeah he is not that good in combat or shooting, but if you use him wisly he can jump around like forever in the enemys deployment zone. He can attack tanks in first turn, go out and fire his flamer and get into fights next turn again. With the automatic healing he is like a 16 W model.
I also like the psychological effect, somehow player are im huge fear of that thing and like to shoot it instead of other priority targets.
Why arent Noisemarines B+?
Its one of the best troop choice or the most dakka able unit with abby for a CSM player. Okay, they get rekt against T5 and good LOS terrain.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To be honest i didnt play my 13p Bolter Marines once this edition. Okay, one time i played a 3 squads of 65p Bolter Marines as Havocs to get a Brigade.
Heldrakes have two aspects to take advantage of:
1. An auto hitting weapon with an okay profile, which counters stuff
2. Insane speed to make charges and therefore tie up units (and they'll fall back or you will)
If you aren't making use of everything, they're never gonna make their points back. Quite honestly, they're unlikely to ever make their points back anyway.
Didn't they go down in price in Chapter Approved too?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Heldrakes have two aspects to take advantage of:
1. An auto hitting weapon with an okay profile, which counters stuff
2. Insane speed to make charges and therefore tie up units (and they'll fall back or you will)
If you aren't making use of everything, they're never gonna make their points back. Quite honestly, they're unlikely to ever make their points back anyway.
Didn't they go down in price in Chapter Approved too?
They did, and still lack a -1 to hit.
Still are only 4+ hitters if no flamer get's involved, which is a shame since the Hades autocannon is just more versatile.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its one of the best troop choice or the most dakka able unit with abby for a CSM player. Okay, they get rekt against T5 and good LOS terrain.
The ammount of additional dakka in combination with the higher pricetag is kinda the issue.
Also remember plague marines dropped again and don't see widespread use. (they make a good alpha legion cheapo plasma msu though)
Heldrakes need the flamer to be 2D6, even if they dropped the damage to 1 as a compromise. Or maybe even 2D3.
I'm okay with them not doing much damage in combat. It's not about hurting what you hit it's more about tying stuff up but it would be nice if it could clear a bit more chaff on the way in with it's flamer.
They generally die first round because they tend to expose themselves to so much firepower so it wouldn't be that OP to be able to kill a few troops with its one opportunity to fire it's flamer...
I got lucky and ate Njal Stormcaller on T1 with a Heldrake with half a dozen buffs from powers and strats. Gave me psychic supremacy and let me Warptime key units up the board in what was essentially a lengthwise strongpoint attack.
I do intend to try them in a hybrid Epidemius - Slaanesh list at some point. If a Fiend can prevent a T1 whipping boy from running away, they could well be utterly lethal.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Heldrakes have two aspects to take advantage of:
1. An auto hitting weapon with an okay profile, which counters stuff
2. Insane speed to make charges and therefore tie up units (and they'll fall back or you will)
If you aren't making use of everything, they're never gonna make their points back. Quite honestly, they're unlikely to ever make their points back anyway.
Didn't they go down in price in Chapter Approved too?
They did, and still lack a -1 to hit.
Still are only 4+ hitters if no flamer get's involved, which is a shame since the Hades autocannon is just more versatile.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its one of the best troop choice or the most dakka able unit with abby for a CSM player. Okay, they get rekt against T5 and good LOS terrain.
The ammount of additional dakka in combination with the higher pricetag is kinda the issue.
Also remember plague marines dropped again and don't see widespread use. (they make a good alpha legion cheapo plasma msu though)
Honestly the Hades was garbage on them last edition too, to the point there's no point to it existing on a Heldrake. It's a weapon that requires heavy saturation and other platforms can do that, whereas this is the only platform with a Bale and it has a specified role.
Also don't get me started on Plague Marines. They have several issues last edition and they have several this edition.
Hades Heldrake had so much potential to be interesting in a game with armour facing and manoeuvres. Death From The Skies and Stormcloud Attack hinted at this and then it was whipped out from under our noses. Shame.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Heldrakes have two aspects to take advantage of:
1. An auto hitting weapon with an okay profile, which counters stuff
2. Insane speed to make charges and therefore tie up units (and they'll fall back or you will)
If you aren't making use of everything, they're never gonna make their points back. Quite honestly, they're unlikely to ever make their points back anyway.
Didn't they go down in price in Chapter Approved too?
They did, and still lack a -1 to hit.
Still are only 4+ hitters if no flamer get's involved, which is a shame since the Hades autocannon is just more versatile.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its one of the best troop choice or the most dakka able unit with abby for a CSM player. Okay, they get rekt against T5 and good LOS terrain.
The ammount of additional dakka in combination with the higher pricetag is kinda the issue.
Also remember plague marines dropped again and don't see widespread use. (they make a good alpha legion cheapo plasma msu though)
Honestly the Hades was garbage on them last edition too, to the point there's no point to it existing on a Heldrake. It's a weapon that requires heavy saturation and other platforms can do that, whereas this is the only platform with a Bale and it has a specified role.
Also don't get me started on Plague Marines. They have several issues last edition and they have several this edition.
Plague marines, are still the better cultmarines, compared to noise marines.
As for the helldrake, it probably still has to pay for the sins at it's introduction.
It's hard to make any cult marines work but plague have the nicest sculpts. I kinda want to run death guard and knights just cuz everything looks awesome.
Nature's Minister wrote: It's hard to make any cult marines work but plague have the nicest sculpts. I kinda want to run death guard and knights just cuz everything looks awesome.
Khorne Berzerkers do work, they are just inflexible glasscannons, but they do work.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Heldrakes have two aspects to take advantage of:
1. An auto hitting weapon with an okay profile, which counters stuff
2. Insane speed to make charges and therefore tie up units (and they'll fall back or you will)
If you aren't making use of everything, they're never gonna make their points back. Quite honestly, they're unlikely to ever make their points back anyway.
Didn't they go down in price in Chapter Approved too?
They did, and still lack a -1 to hit.
Still are only 4+ hitters if no flamer get's involved, which is a shame since the Hades autocannon is just more versatile.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its one of the best troop choice or the most dakka able unit with abby for a CSM player. Okay, they get rekt against T5 and good LOS terrain.
The ammount of additional dakka in combination with the higher pricetag is kinda the issue.
Also remember plague marines dropped again and don't see widespread use. (they make a good alpha legion cheapo plasma msu though)
Honestly the Hades was garbage on them last edition too, to the point there's no point to it existing on a Heldrake. It's a weapon that requires heavy saturation and other platforms can do that, whereas this is the only platform with a Bale and it has a specified role.
Also don't get me started on Plague Marines. They have several issues last edition and they have several this edition.
Plague marines, are still the better cultmarines, compared to noise marines.
As for the helldrake, it probably still has to pay for the sins at it's introduction.
I'm still bitter that they basically lost an attack and their Bolters aren't Plague Weapons. You give me that and I'll gladly pay 17 or 18 points.
Noise Marines simply need cheaper Blasters. Otherwise they fulfill their role of bullying Cover Cowards.
Berserker Marines actually work. Somewhat. I just wish the squad had Power Fists or (my favorite) Eviscerators as an option.
Rubric Marines are in the same durable camp as Plague Marines, but I see Plague Marines as wanting to be up close and Rubric Marines don't. I had a fix last edition that the Sorcerer could cast different buff each turn and I'd like to actually see it come to fruition. It never will though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also yeah Heldrakes are still paying for last edition. At least they aren't worse off than Devastator Centurions.
I think all the cult marines have their place, they're just hard to build an entire list around. Throw in a unit or two of any of them, and they still do good work.
-Berserkers are probably the most straightforward of the bunch. Get them in a rhino or termite drill and mulch things and die. You can stack a mountain of buffs on them too via apostle/exalted, prescience, and VoTL if you REALLY need to shred something.
-Rubrics are decent all-rounders, able to suck up damage and dish it out. With flamers they're awesome close-range killers, and the sorcerer is a cherry on top. Use chaos familiar to swap out smite for something useful.
-Plagues are good MSU special weapon squads, with either 3 plasma, or two blightlaunchers and a plasma. Just hang around in cover and throw out wounds.
-Noisyboys kill chaff like nobodies business, and with stratagems and their death ability, they just put out so many goddamn bullets they're almost always worth it.
Nature's Minister wrote: It's hard to make any cult marines work but plague have the nicest sculpts. I kinda want to run death guard and knights just cuz everything looks awesome.
Khorne Berzerkers do work, they are just inflexible glasscannons, but they do work.
I'm having trouble keeping mine alive after they jump out of their box and kill everything in 12". Love them, but really hard to tri-point a unit when it's wiped or flees. I also mostly play vs. BA and Guard and Necron.
Unrelated, back to chosen, anyone have anecdotal support that 6 flamers and chainswords work?
After all of the FAQ etc. can noise marines still shoot characters if they die outside of their own shooting phase despite character targeting rules? What is the current thought on noise marines? With cover start they get 2+ and the ignore cover rule seems decent, slightly over costed but getting off 1st turn seems to guarantee another turn of shooting and even better if charge goes off... Not sure if it can be competitive...
Nature's Minister wrote: It's hard to make any cult marines work but plague have the nicest sculpts. I kinda want to run death guard and knights just cuz everything looks awesome.
Khorne Berzerkers do work, they are just inflexible glasscannons, but they do work.
I'm having trouble keeping mine alive after they jump out of their box and kill everything in 12". Love them, but really hard to tri-point a unit when it's wiped or flees. I also mostly play vs. BA and Guard and Necron.
Unrelated, back to chosen, anyone have anecdotal support that 6 flamers and chainswords work?
Again, expecting Khorneberzerker to survive is the wrong attitude. It's like saying shocktroops should hold onto a trench forever, even though their tactical plan is to breakthrough and make way for other stuff. Basically, Khorneberzerkers eliminate chaff or big problem targets and afterwards all they do is soak fire. They are f.e. not intended to hold an objective, for that you have cultists or even regular marines.
As for chosen, why would you equip them with anything else then a combibolter? They are way cheaper and in the same area can generate an equal ammount of dakka, not to mention that they still can engage at 24"
If any sepcial wepon should take your fancy, get your hands on plasma chosen, combi plasma chosen, since they can solve all problems, but are too expensive.
Edit: if you really want to burn things, renegade militia can get 1 special weapon per 5 militia members in a squad, max squad size is 20 --> 4 flamers, and they can be easily somewhat made morale immune, but even there, why bother with flamers when you get grenade launchers for half the price and heavy stbbers for 2 pts a pop.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lindsay40k wrote: Hades Heldrake had so much potential to be interesting in a game with armour facing and manoeuvres. Death From The Skies and Stormcloud Attack hinted at this and then it was whipped out from under our noses. Shame.
The problem i see with it, there is no cheap bood bs plattform for it. Nothing against daemon engines but even the ones designed for shooting just suck thanks to bs4+ and a pricing based more on their durability then real effectiveness.
If we could've gotten say a predator with twin Hades autocannon in it's turret, the story would change drastically but atm the gun which is actually fairly great, is stuck on vehicles that A, suck (Helldrake) B are overpriced (Dakkafiend) and C struggle from BS4+.
With the points drop in seriously considering a kytan but really not keen on the legs. I've seen a couple of conversions where people have attached the lord of skulls torso to imperial Knight legs.
Anybody have any experience or know of any tutorials/blogs about it? Or good examples? Google is only coming up with a couple of images, I'm concerned maybe the IK legs are a little squat for the kytan torso...
Abaddon303 wrote: With the points drop in seriously considering a kytan but really not keen on the legs. I've seen a couple of conversions where people have attached the lord of skulls torso to imperial Knight legs.
Anybody have any experience or know of any tutorials/blogs about it? Or good examples? Google is only coming up with a couple of images, I'm concerned maybe the IK legs are a little squat for the kytan torso...
An amiriger is too stubby, fits with daemonengines though sizewise, so i'd say the next bigger one. point in case i am just eyeballing, you should probably go the modeling blogs with that question.
Yeh I was thinking the full size Knight. I think the castellan is slightly taller and might be the right dimensions although will probably be more expensive to buy spare legs from a bitz store
Beginning to think that Knights are being meta against now. Alot more heavy weapons are now brought because of knights. Honestly though, a Castellan is still hard to deal with. And don't get me started on the Valiant. That thing is so dangerous to charge, but just as hard to kill with shooting as a Castellan.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Beginning to think that Knights are being meta against now. Alot more heavy weapons are now brought because of knights. Honestly though, a Castellan is still hard to deal with. And don't get me started on the Valiant. That thing is so dangerous to charge, but just as hard to kill with shooting as a Castellan.
How do you guys deal with knight lists?
Sick of fighting them, sick of jiggering lists to deal with them.
Lascannons and Bloodletter Bombs are how I deal with them. Shoot from a distance and drop infantry close enough to charge.
Last night, the guy at the table next to me was paying 3 Sicarans against them. Not sure why, but the accelerator autocannons were getting some work done.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Beginning to think that Knights are being meta against now. Alot more heavy weapons are now brought because of knights. Honestly though, a Castellan is still hard to deal with. And don't get me started on the Valiant. That thing is so dangerous to charge, but just as hard to kill with shooting as a Castellan.
How do you guys deal with knight lists?
Sick of fighting them, sick of jiggering lists to deal with them.
Lascannons and Bloodletter Bombs are how I deal with them. Shoot from a distance and drop infantry close enough to charge.
Last night, the guy at the table next to me was paying 3 Sicarans against them. Not sure why, but the accelerator autocannons were getting some work done.
The Accel Autocannon has a high rate of fire and doesn't pay a lot for an AP value. It's no wonder it works decently against Knights, but you'd for sure need the rerolls handy for hitting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The fact the Sicaran went down in points with Chapter Approved helps too. You might prefer them to actual Razorbacks at this point for all I know.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Beginning to think that Knights are being meta against now. Alot more heavy weapons are now brought because of knights. Honestly though, a Castellan is still hard to deal with. And don't get me started on the Valiant. That thing is so dangerous to charge, but just as hard to kill with shooting as a Castellan.
How do you guys deal with knight lists?
Sick of fighting them, sick of jiggering lists to deal with them.
Lascannons and Bloodletter Bombs are how I deal with them. Shoot from a distance and drop infantry close enough to charge.
Last night, the guy at the table next to me was paying 3 Sicarans against them. Not sure why, but the accelerator autocannons were getting some work done.
The Accel Autocannon has a high rate of fire and doesn't pay a lot for an AP value. It's no wonder it works decently against Knights, but you'd for sure need the rerolls handy for hitting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The fact the Sicaran went down in points with Chapter Approved helps too. You might prefer them to actual Razorbacks at this point for all I know.
Basically any faction /army that either does not want to bring a knight or can't bring a knight with the required relics is suffering atm.
Take a regular mono IG list, leman russes have no place in it beyond tank commanders because there is so much AT saturation atm that it puts that well priced tank out of commision, in favour of suicide Hellhounds.
Same with ork Battlewagons, or any former heavy tank. It also does not helpt that f.e. space marine tanks are just terrible aswell in most cases.
Additionally since everyone and their mother needs to bring preferably allround weapons with an ap value space marines and other high armor elite armies get the double middlefinger.
orkswubwub wrote: After all of the FAQ etc. can noise marines still shoot characters if they die outside of their own shooting phase despite character targeting rules? What is the current thought on noise marines? With cover start they get 2+ and the ignore cover rule seems decent, slightly over costed but getting off 1st turn seems to guarantee another turn of shooting and even better if charge goes off... Not sure if it can be competitive...
The CSMFAQ didn’t receive any changes. Go ahead and snipe with blastmasters whenever they get caught with their pants down.
As for thoughts, with wider access to cover, they seem ok. Maybe not undercosted great, but certainly nice. I certainly don’t regret spending ages on a unit
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I didn't realize Noise Marines could ignore those targeting restrictions if they die.
Sonic Dreads and a suicide Termite of Noise Marines might be fun.
Its one of those raw vs rai issues, but even then rai is questionable because if it wasnt working the way they intended you would think that they would have fixex it by now. So yes, at the moment they can shoot chrs when they die. They can also all throw grenades when they die since each one is activated one at a time as its own thing.
I would say if its a tournament do what works, but if its a friendly game i wouldnt do it unless your opponent was fully aware about it. It can come off as a bad taste in your mouth kind of thing.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I didn't realize Noise Marines could ignore those targeting restrictions if they die.
Sonic Dreads and a suicide Termite of Noise Marines might be fun.
Its one of those raw vs rai issues, but even then rai is questionable because if it wasnt working the way they intended you would think that they would have fixex it by now. So yes, at the moment they can shoot chrs when they die. They can also all throw grenades when they die since each one is activated one at a time as its own thing.
I would say if its a tournament do what works, but if its a friendly game i wouldnt do it unless your opponent was fully aware about it. It can come off as a bad taste in your mouth kind of thing.
I mean you'd never throw a Frag vs using the Blaster, but sometimes a Krak might be a better option. I know about that little tidbit of course, but the character targeting was honestly brand new to me.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I didn't realize Noise Marines could ignore those targeting restrictions if they die.
Sonic Dreads and a suicide Termite of Noise Marines might be fun.
Its one of those raw vs rai issues, but even then rai is questionable because if it wasnt working the way they intended you would think that they would have fixex it by now. So yes, at the moment they can shoot chrs when they die. They can also all throw grenades when they die since each one is activated one at a time as its own thing.
I would say if its a tournament do what works, but if its a friendly game i wouldnt do it unless your opponent was fully aware about it. It can come off as a bad taste in your mouth kind of thing.
In the first games, i shot with my dying Noise Marines even if the their unit was in 1 inch of an enemy unit then i just shot with models of that unit that werent in one inch. Now i am a really friendly gamer and just shoot pistols into the nearest models... I miss the old times. Yeah its a really fethed up rule, which brings total chaos to the game... i love it!!
Fun fact - if a Loyalist character is munching through your NMs in melee, you can use a Krak Grenade with Music of the Apocalypse - and it benefits from DttFE
I was considering just doing a knight conversion as a base to a kytan because I like the look of knights better. Can't imagine anyone would be too ticked about it since they're both in the same class.
lindsay40k wrote: Fun fact - if a Loyalist character is munching through your NMs in melee, you can use a Krak Grenade with Music of the Apocalypse - and it benefits from DttFE
"Angry krak grenade literally to angry to die, detonates a second time!!!! "
Automatically Appended Next Post:
drakerocket wrote: I was considering just doing a knight conversion as a base to a kytan because I like the look of knights better. Can't imagine anyone would be too ticked about it since they're both in the same class.
Depends, needs to look like an overgrown Bloodthirsters though!
Keep in mind with Noise Marines, if they die in melee, they can't shoot any weapons into thier OWN combat (except for pistols). They can fire their weapons out of combat, at other targets, but they can't point-blank grenade people.
The rule that allows weapons to shoot in melee is on the weapon itself (like pistols). Music of the Apocalypse just allows them to fire weapons if they are in 1" on an enemy, it doesnt intrinsically allow them to target enemy units within 1" of them.
McGibs wrote: Keep in mind with Noise Marines, if they die in melee, they can't shoot any weapons into thier OWN combat (except for pistols). They can fire their weapons out of combat, at other targets, but they can't point-blank grenade people.
The rule that allows weapons to shoot in melee is on the weapon itself (like pistols). Music of the Apocalypse just allows them to fire weapons if they are in 1" on an enemy, it doesnt intrinsically allow them to target enemy units within 1" of them.
You mean if my Noisemarines die in the fightphase they can shoot out of their combat because "Shootingphaserules" and get Death to the false Emperor, but if they die in the Shootingphase they cannot shoot out of their combat.
That will be hell to explain it to the opponent.
It just feels like wrong.
Its a strong specialrule and this makes it even stronger.
They can shoot OUT of combat. They cannot shoot INTO combat (except with pistols).
It has nothing to do with which phase the unit is dying in.
The Music of the Apocalypse rule itself states: this unit can shoot even if an enemy unit is within 1" of it.
It does NOT say: this unit can shoot an enemy unit within 1" of it.
^ That specification is attached to the weapon itself, like pistols (which are allowed to shoot enemy units within 1")
What matters in phases is about targeting characters, which can only be targeted IN THE SHOOTING PHASE if they are closest unit. So if the noisemarines die in the fight phase, they can shoot characters even if they arent closest.
I feel like it's hard to do much of anything in a "friendly" game without your opponent getting all salted up. Sometimes people are cool, but more often than not they'll stop the game for 20 minutes while you show them rules, and still get mad at you when you are right.
I played a game against an IG player and tripointed two of his units with one tzaangor blob on turn one, only allowing him to shoot at cultists and a second blob. He got mad cuz he couldn't back out of combat, he got mad cuz of pile in and consolidate, and he got really mad when bloodletters came in with ap-3.
All this after telling me how good IG was against chaos and I shouldn't expect to have fun during the game.
Nature's Minister wrote: I feel like it's hard to do much of anything in a "friendly" game without your opponent getting all salted up. Sometimes people are cool, but more often than not they'll stop the game for 20 minutes while you show them rules, and still get mad at you when you are right.
I played a game against an IG player and tripointed two of his units with one tzaangor blob on turn one, only allowing him to shoot at cultists and a second blob. He got mad cuz he couldn't back out of combat, he got mad cuz of pile in and consolidate, and he got really mad when bloodletters came in with ap-3.
All this after telling me how good IG was against chaos and I shouldn't expect to have fun during the game.
Well, he was right.... it doesnt sound like you had fun. Also he should not get mad because you played by the rules.... like getting mad that you remembered dttfe and thanks to that you killed something he really liked.
I suppose you are right. That is why I no longer really want to play pick up games anymore, and I tell people straight up I'm not playing a friendly list, but they don't listen and it's hard to get practice any other way.
Nature's Minister wrote:I feel like it's hard to do much of anything in a "friendly" game without your opponent getting all salted up. Sometimes people are cool, but more often than not they'll stop the game for 20 minutes while you show them rules, and still get mad at you when you are right.
congratulations, you've discovered the motivations of the majority of people who want "friendly" games. To be able to bitch about anything that beats them as being too unfriendly, while taking whatever they also think is good but not actually having the game knowledge or collection to build a quality list.
Literally anything somewhat decent, or any use of synergistic game mechanics is too much (nevermind if they are doing it too there's is balanced for some reason or other specific to their build or faction). I had a guy tell me a Tervigon is cheesy the other day.
I just no longer give a gak. I make fun builds and don't copy the meta, but I will still crush people if that's how the game goes and if they get salty I no longer care. It's a defense mechanism for their ego and I see right through it these days
McGibs wrote: They can shoot OUT of combat. They cannot shoot INTO combat (except with pistols).
It has nothing to do with which phase the unit is dying in.
The Music of the Apocalypse rule itself states: this unit can shoot even if an enemy unit is within 1" of it.
It does NOT say: this unit can shoot an enemy unit within 1" of it.
^ That specification is attached to the weapon itself, like pistols (which are allowed to shoot enemy units within 1")
What matters in phases is about targeting characters, which can only be targeted IN THE SHOOTING PHASE if they are closest unit. So if the noisemarines die in the fight phase, they can shoot characters even if they arent closest.
I’d like to clarify - they can shoot *within* combat and *out of* combat, but not *into* combat.
On an open plain, Noise Marine unit A is fighting in close combat with Tacitcal Squad B, and separately Berzerkers unit C is in close combat with Devastators unit D. Rhino E is parked in plain view of A, 6” away from them, and Librarian F is standing in plain view immediately behind.
CSMFAQ wrote:
Spoiler:
Q: Can a Noise Marine that is slain use his Music of the Apocalypse ability to shoot any viable target, or does it have to target the unit that killed him?
A: It can shoot at any viable target.
Q: If a Noise Marine is slain whilst its unit is within 1" of an enemy unit, can he use his Music of the Apocalypse ability to shoot the unit that is within 1"?
A: Yes, but only with a Pistol.
Q: If several Noise Marines are slain in the same attack, can they each use their Music of the Apocalypse ability to throw a grenade, or can only one of them do so?
A: Each of them can throw a grenade.
Q: If a Noise Marine is slain in the Fight phase, and he uses
his Music of the Apocalypse ability to shoot an Imperium unit and subsequently rolls a hit roll of 6+, does the Death to the False Emperor ability then grant him an extra attack with that weapon, even though it’s a ranged weapon?
A: Yes. In this situation, make an extra hit roll against the target on a hit roll of 6+.
As Tactical Squad B kill them, every dying member of Noise Marine unit A can do one of the following:
- fire their pistol at Tactical Squad B, benefitting from DttFE;
- shoot and gun or throw a grenade (they are within range, and any number of them can do this) at Rhino E, benefittting from DtfFE;
- shoot a gun (they are not within Grenade range) at Liberarian F, benefittting from DttFE. It is not the Shooting Phase, which is when Characters benefit from targeting restrictions, and until an FAQ specifies otherwise, we’re not treating this like a shooting phase. There’s a difference between ‘move’ and ‘move as if it were the movement phase’, and a difference between ‘shoot’ and ‘shoot as if it were the shooting phase’, and whilst GW have taken the time to reverse previous ruling about Warptime and made multiple rulings on Noise Marine semantics, they’ve not FAQ’d away this semantic -
BRB wrote:
Spoiler:
A CHARACTER can only be chosen as a target in the Shooting phase if they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting.
- yet. (YET. Don’t spend a fortune on Noise Marines because the internet told you Blastmasters can be used as seppuku Krak Missile snipers.)
They can NOT shoot at Devastator unit D, because that unit is within 1” of one of your units and the Noise Marines are not involved in that fight:
BRB wrote:
Spoiler:
Models cannot target enemy units that are within 1" of friendly models – the risk of hitting your own troops is too great.
Further note on Character-shooting semantics:
Big FAQ 2 wrote:
Spoiler:
An enemy Character with a Wounds characteristic of less than 10 can only be chosen as a target in the Shooting phase if it is both visible to the firing model and it is the closest enemy unit to the firing model.
It’s still very specific RAW that Characters’ proximity-based ultra void shield only works during the Shooting phase. Show an FAQ saying I’m resolving MotA shots as if were the Shooting phase, and then I’ll stop firing Blastmasters at Librarians with exploding 6’s.
Here is an updated list for a Tzeentch army I'm making. It's also in the Chaos Daemons thread:
Tzaangors (20, 18 with Tzaangor Blades, 1 with Daemonic Icon and 1 with Instrument of Chaos): 165
Tzaangor Shaman (1, with Force Stave and Blade): 90
Tzaangor Enlightened (3, with Divining Spears and Blades): 48
Tzaangor Skyfires (3, with Fatecaster Greatbows): 51
Cultists: (5, 3 with Autoguns, 2 with Autopistols and Brutal Assault Weapons): 25
Kairic Cultists [treated exactly the same as regular Cultists] (10, with Brutal Assault Weapons): 50
Exalted Flamer (2): 140
Fateskimmer (2): 260
Changecaster (1): 65
Pink Horrors (12, 1 with Daemonic Icon and 1 with Instrument of Chaos): 109
Lord of Change with Baleful Sword (1): 275
Exalted Sorcerer [Special Character] (1): (with Inferno Bolt Pistol and Force Stave): 122
Chaos Space Marines [The Scourged Renegade Chapter] (13) (with Boltguns): 130
Rubric Marines (10) (with Inferno Boltguns, one with Soulreaper Cannon): 193
Helbrute [The Scourged Renegade Chapter] (1) (with Twinlascannon and Missile Launcher): 120
Chaos Terminator Lord [The Scourged Renegade Chapter] (1) (with Reaper Autocannon and Lightning Claw): 113
ArcaneHorror wrote: Here is an updated list for a Tzeentch army I'm making. It's also in the Chaos Daemons thread:
Tzaangors (20, 18 with Tzaangor Blades, 1 with Daemonic Icon and 1 with Instrument of Chaos): 165
Tzaangor Shaman (1, with Force Stave and Blade): 90
Tzaangor Enlightened (3, with Divining Spears and Blades): 48
Tzaangor Skyfires (3, with Fatecaster Greatbows): 51
Cultists: (5, 3 with Autoguns, 2 with Autopistols and Brutal Assault Weapons): 25
Kairic Cultists [treated exactly the same as regular Cultists] (10, with Brutal Assault Weapons): 50
Exalted Flamer (2): 140
Fateskimmer (2): 260
Changecaster (1): 65
Pink Horrors (12, 1 with Daemonic Icon and 1 with Instrument of Chaos): 109
Lord of Change with Baleful Sword (1): 275
Exalted Sorcerer [Special Character] (1): (with Inferno Bolt Pistol and Force Stave): 122
Chaos Space Marines [The Scourged Renegade Chapter] (13) (with Boltguns): 130
Rubric Marines (10) (with Inferno Boltguns, one with Soulreaper Cannon): 193
Helbrute [The Scourged Renegade Chapter] (1) (with Twinlascannon and Missile Launcher): 120
Chaos Terminator Lord [The Scourged Renegade Chapter] (1) (with Reaper Autocannon and Lightning Claw): 113
Total points: 1,995
I think regular cultists are min 10 and you seem to have a 5 man unit there
ArcaneHorror wrote: Here is an updated list for a Tzeentch army I'm making. It's also in the Chaos Daemons thread:
Tzaangors (20, 18 with Tzaangor Blades, 1 with Daemonic Icon and 1 with Instrument of Chaos): 165
Tzaangor Shaman (1, with Force Stave and Blade): 90
Tzaangor Enlightened (3, with Divining Spears and Blades): 48
Tzaangor Skyfires (3, with Fatecaster Greatbows): 51
Cultists: (5, 3 with Autoguns, 2 with Autopistols and Brutal Assault Weapons): 25
Kairic Cultists [treated exactly the same as regular Cultists] (10, with Brutal Assault Weapons): 50
Exalted Flamer (2): 140
Fateskimmer (2): 260
Changecaster (1): 65
Pink Horrors (12, 1 with Daemonic Icon and 1 with Instrument of Chaos): 109
Lord of Change with Baleful Sword (1): 275
Exalted Sorcerer [Special Character] (1): (with Inferno Bolt Pistol and Force Stave): 122
Chaos Space Marines [The Scourged Renegade Chapter] (13) (with Boltguns): 130
Rubric Marines (10) (with Inferno Boltguns, one with Soulreaper Cannon): 193
Helbrute [The Scourged Renegade Chapter] (1) (with Twinlascannon and Missile Launcher): 120
Chaos Terminator Lord [The Scourged Renegade Chapter] (1) (with Reaper Autocannon and Lightning Claw): 113
Total points: 1,995
I think regular cultists are min 10 and you seem to have a 5 man unit there
I can always put them in the same unit with the Kairics as they are essentially the same thing in 40K.
Anyway, here is my new list:
Tzaangors (20) (18 with Tzaangor Blades, 1 with Daemonic Icon and 1 with Instrument of Chaos): 165
Tzaangor Shaman (1) (with Force Stave and Blade): 90
Tzaangor Enlightened (3) (with Divining Spears and Blades): 48
Tzaangor Skyfires (3) with Fatecaster Greatbows): 51
Cultists: (5) 3 with Autoguns, 2 with Autopistols and Brutal Assault Weapons): 25
Kairic Cultists [treated the same as regular Cultists] (12, with Brutal Assault Weapons): 60
Exalted Flamer (2): 140
Fateskimmer (2): 260
Changecaster (1): 65
Pink Horrors (30) 1 with Daemonic Icon and 1 with Instrument of Chaos): 235
Blue Horrors (30): 150
Lord of Change with Baleful Sword (1): 275
Exalted Sorcerer [Special Character] (1): (with Inferno Bolt Pistol and Force Stave): 122
Rubric Marines (20) (with Inferno Boltguns, one with Soulreaper Cannon): 190
Helbrute (1) [Thousand Sons] (with Twinlascannon and Missile Launcher): 120
Total points: 1,996
I'm wondering if I should replace one of the Exalted Flamers with a Scarab Occult Terminator. Also, I'm up in the air about whether I want to keep the Blue Horrors unit due to toughness, or have two Brimstone units for greater numbers.
I'm currently running a 1,000 points list against a friend who plays Tau. I tried out this line up last game and struggled quite a bit. I've been playing around with a lot of unit combinations, but it's been a real struggle to have any success.
HQ
Daemon Prince with Wings
* Mark of Slaanesh
* Malefic Talons
* Death Hex, Warp Time
Elites
Noise Marines
* 7 with Sonic Blasters
* 2 Blast Masters
* Champion with Power Sword, Sonic Blasters and Doom Siren
(In the last two games I've played, these have been by far the most useful)
Troops
Chaos Cultists
Usually around 30, sometimes more. Sometimes I'll stick heavy stubbers in
Fast Attack
Chaos Bikes
* 2 Bikes with Flamers
* Champion with Combi-flamer
Chaos Spawn
* 3 Spawn
Heavy Support
Predator
* 2 Las Cannons
* Twin Linked Las Cannon
* Havoc Launcher
I've got a pretty wide selection of models to switch out stuff with, but I don't have much in the way of access to new units (I've no real ability to start buying Forge World Drop Pods, for example). In addition to what's been listed.
Spoiler:
* A Leviathan dreadnought. Has a magantised arm so he can be given a Butcher Cannon or two Siege Claws
* About 6 Chosen with Power Fists
* 20ish Generic CSMs, 9 of whom who can be used with combi-bolters
* 11 Chosen with Plasma Guns
* 5 Warp Talons
* 7 Plague Marines, 2 with Plasma Gun, Champion with Plasma Gun and Power Fist
* 4 CSMs with Las Cannons
* 4 with Missile Launchers
* 8 Khorne Bezerkers, with an assortment of weapons
* 11 Raptors
* 9 Rubrics, 5 with Warp Flamers, 4 with Inferno Bolters, 1 Aspiring Sorcerer
blood reaper wrote: I'm currently running a 1,000 points list against a friend who plays Tau. I tried out this line up last game and struggled quite a bit. I've been playing around with a lot of unit combinations, but it's been a real struggle to have any success.
HQ
Daemon Prince with Wings
* Mark of Slaanesh
* Malefic Talons
* Death Hex, Warp Time
Elites
Noise Marines
* 7 with Sonic Blasters
* 2 Blast Masters
* Champion with Power Sword, Sonic Blasters and Doom Siren
(In the last two games I've played, these have been by far the most useful)
Troops
Chaos Cultists
Usually around 30, sometimes more. Sometimes I'll stick heavy stubbers in
Fast Attack
Chaos Bikes
* 2 Bikes with Flamers
* Champion with Combi-flamer
Chaos Spawn
* 3 Spawn
Heavy Support
Predator
* 2 Las Cannons
* Twin Linked Las Cannon
* Havoc Launcher
I've got a pretty wide selection of models to switch out stuff with, but I don't have much in the way of access to new units (I've no real ability to start buying Forge World Drop Pods, for example). In addition to what's been listed.
Spoiler:
* A Leviathan dreadnought. Has a magantised arm so he can be given a Butcher Cannon or two Siege Claws
* About 6 Chosen with Power Fists
* 20ish Generic CSMs, 9 of whom who can be used with combi-bolters
* 11 Chosen with Plasma Guns
* 5 Warp Talons
* 7 Plague Marines, 2 with Plasma Gun, Champion with Plasma Gun and Power Fist
* 4 CSMs with Las Cannons
* 4 with Missile Launchers
* 8 Khorne Bezerkers, with an assortment of weapons
* 11 Raptors
* 9 Rubrics, 5 with Warp Flamers, 4 with Inferno Bolters, 1 Aspiring Sorcerer
* 3 Chaos Spawn
* A Rhino
I've been experimenting with this to some success at 1k:
Chaos Lord [5 PL, 76pts]: 2. Flames of Spite, Blade of the Hydra, Chainsword, Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne, Warlord
Sorcerer [6 PL, 100pts]: Combi-bolter, Force sword, Infernal Gaze, Mark of Nurgle, Miasma of Pestilence
Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Force sword, Mark of Tzeentch, Prescience, Weaver of Fates
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 75pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter
+ Heavy Support +
Havocs [7 PL, 105pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter
Hmmm, I am really struggling hard to come up with ways to cope with my friend's army. Has a lot of IG shooting, along with a sister's batallion and an imperial knight Gallant.
It doesn't look as threatening as a Castellan (which he tried before). But it saves him points he can use elsewhere. And that Gallant is still a 4++ going to 3++ with raise ion shields. Its more a distraction carnefix, its a massive model that has to be dealt with or it wll wreck havoc on whatever it touches.
And IG has enough bodies and shooting to be threatening, especially if I also have to worry about the 3++ imperial knight. His sister's batallion gives his center a 4++ bubble too.
I am experimenting with mixing in chao daemons with my CSM (fight soup with soup), but well, even with using the cheaper chaos daemon troops with their invul saves, its still an uphill task. He can brings lots of mortars and hide them behind cover (or just cannot be seen) since his mortars and Basilisk don't need line of sight.
If you death hex the knight it will die very quickly to havoc fire. If you want to garuntee this happens your best bet is to ally in a supreme command detachment of thousand sons with arhiman and some sorcerers on disks. Move all 3 up, use the strat for +2 to cast giving arhiman +3 to cast death hex, that should do it. Or hit him with a khorne patrol detachment of bloodletters, 26 should do it, and a herald. Give the herald the blood crown relic so 6's to wound generate additional attacks, upgrade the bloodletters to have the 3d6 charge banner, and drop them in t2. They should tear the knight appart no matter the save.
As for guard themselves it depends on what kind of army he is running. Does he take infantry? Tanks? Are they russes or artillery? More info is needed there but a large blob of 40 cultists hanging around with a sorcerer with delightful agonies and Abandon can do some serious work and take a pounding.
He brings, Basilisks, mortar teams and Pask, and infantry of course. So, enough bubble wrap to make deep strike difficult and unlikely to pull off. Both Basilisks and mortar teams don't need line of sight, so he can just keep them in deep cover. If I can't see them, then I can't target them.
The mortar teams plus his other shooting can kill a team of 40 cultists, especially if he goes first. I tried this on him before, now he knows he must kill all 40.
blood reaper wrote: I'm currently running a 1,000 points list against a friend who plays Tau. I tried out this line up last game and struggled quite a bit. I've been playing around with a lot of unit combinations, but it's been a real struggle to have any success.
Spoiler:
HQ
Daemon Prince with Wings
* Mark of Slaanesh
* Malefic Talons
* Death Hex, Warp Time
Elites
Noise Marines
* 7 with Sonic Blasters
* 2 Blast Masters
* Champion with Power Sword, Sonic Blasters and Doom Siren
(In the last two games I've played, these have been by far the most useful)
Troops
Chaos Cultists
Usually around 30, sometimes more. Sometimes I'll stick heavy stubbers in
Fast Attack
Chaos Bikes
* 2 Bikes with Flamers
* Champion with Combi-flamer
Chaos Spawn
* 3 Spawn
Heavy Support
Predator
* 2 Las Cannons
* Twin Linked Las Cannon
* Havoc Launcher
I've got a pretty wide selection of models to switch out stuff with, but I don't have much in the way of access to new units (I've no real ability to start buying Forge World Drop Pods, for example). In addition to what's been listed.
Spoiler:
* A Leviathan dreadnought. Has a magantised arm so he can be given a Butcher Cannon or two Siege Claws
* About 6 Chosen with Power Fists
* 20ish Generic CSMs, 9 of whom who can be used with combi-bolters
* 11 Chosen with Plasma Guns
* 5 Warp Talons
* 7 Plague Marines, 2 with Plasma Gun, Champion with Plasma Gun and Power Fist
* 4 CSMs with Las Cannons
* 4 with Missile Launchers
* 8 Khorne Bezerkers, with an assortment of weapons
* 11 Raptors
* 9 Rubrics, 5 with Warp Flamers, 4 with Inferno Bolters, 1 Aspiring Sorcerer
* 3 Chaos Spawn
* A Rhino
Hmm. Have you tried getting Prescience cast on your Noise Marines and comboing Veterans of the Long War and Endless Cacophony? Your Rubric unit leader could quite happily stand as a Sorcerer. Might be worth trading Spawn and Prince for a Lord and Sorc. If you took your Cultists as three units, that’d also yield 5CP. If you like a Cultist horde, an alternative could be to switch out the Bikers and take CSM units with las or mis?
blood reaper wrote: I'm currently running a 1,000 points list against a friend who plays Tau. I tried out this line up last game and struggled quite a bit. I've been playing around with a lot of unit combinations, but it's been a real struggle to have any success.
Spoiler:
HQ
Daemon Prince with Wings
* Mark of Slaanesh
* Malefic Talons
* Death Hex, Warp Time
Elites
Noise Marines
* 7 with Sonic Blasters
* 2 Blast Masters
* Champion with Power Sword, Sonic Blasters and Doom Siren
(In the last two games I've played, these have been by far the most useful)
Troops
Chaos Cultists
Usually around 30, sometimes more. Sometimes I'll stick heavy stubbers in
Fast Attack
Chaos Bikes
* 2 Bikes with Flamers
* Champion with Combi-flamer
Chaos Spawn
* 3 Spawn
Heavy Support
Predator
* 2 Las Cannons
* Twin Linked Las Cannon
* Havoc Launcher
I've got a pretty wide selection of models to switch out stuff with, but I don't have much in the way of access to new units (I've no real ability to start buying Forge World Drop Pods, for example). In addition to what's been listed.
Spoiler:
* A Leviathan dreadnought. Has a magantised arm so he can be given a Butcher Cannon or two Siege Claws
* About 6 Chosen with Power Fists
* 20ish Generic CSMs, 9 of whom who can be used with combi-bolters
* 11 Chosen with Plasma Guns
* 5 Warp Talons
* 7 Plague Marines, 2 with Plasma Gun, Champion with Plasma Gun and Power Fist
* 4 CSMs with Las Cannons
* 4 with Missile Launchers
* 8 Khorne Bezerkers, with an assortment of weapons
* 11 Raptors
* 9 Rubrics, 5 with Warp Flamers, 4 with Inferno Bolters, 1 Aspiring Sorcerer
* 3 Chaos Spawn
* A Rhino
Hmm. Have you tried getting Prescience cast on your Noise Marines and comboing Veterans of the Long War and Endless Cacophony? Your Rubric unit leader could quite happily stand as a Sorcerer. Might be worth trading Spawn and Prince for a Lord and Sorc. If you took your Cultists as three units, that’d also yield 5CP. If you like a Cultist horde, an alternative could be to switch out the Bikers and take CSM units with las or mis?
Also, what’s your Legion?
I'll try out using Prescience and VOTLW with Endless Cacophony. I'll also try switching out the Bikers, since so far they've really struggled to do anything.
I've been switching between Renegades and Iron Warriors, though I've been interested in trying out the Alpha Legion trait.
blood reaper wrote: I'm currently running a 1,000 points list against a friend who plays Tau. I tried out this line up last game and struggled quite a bit. I've been playing around with a lot of unit combinations, but it's been a real struggle to have any success.
Spoiler:
HQ
Daemon Prince with Wings
* Mark of Slaanesh
* Malefic Talons
* Death Hex, Warp Time
Elites
Noise Marines
* 7 with Sonic Blasters
* 2 Blast Masters
* Champion with Power Sword, Sonic Blasters and Doom Siren
(In the last two games I've played, these have been by far the most useful)
Troops
Chaos Cultists
Usually around 30, sometimes more. Sometimes I'll stick heavy stubbers in
Fast Attack
Chaos Bikes
* 2 Bikes with Flamers
* Champion with Combi-flamer
Chaos Spawn
* 3 Spawn
Heavy Support
Predator
* 2 Las Cannons
* Twin Linked Las Cannon
* Havoc Launcher
I've got a pretty wide selection of models to switch out stuff with, but I don't have much in the way of access to new units (I've no real ability to start buying Forge World Drop Pods, for example). In addition to what's been listed.
Spoiler:
* A Leviathan dreadnought. Has a magantised arm so he can be given a Butcher Cannon or two Siege Claws
* About 6 Chosen with Power Fists
* 20ish Generic CSMs, 9 of whom who can be used with combi-bolters
* 11 Chosen with Plasma Guns
* 5 Warp Talons
* 7 Plague Marines, 2 with Plasma Gun, Champion with Plasma Gun and Power Fist
* 4 CSMs with Las Cannons
* 4 with Missile Launchers
* 8 Khorne Bezerkers, with an assortment of weapons
* 11 Raptors
* 9 Rubrics, 5 with Warp Flamers, 4 with Inferno Bolters, 1 Aspiring Sorcerer
* 3 Chaos Spawn
* A Rhino
Hmm. Have you tried getting Prescience cast on your Noise Marines and comboing Veterans of the Long War and Endless Cacophony? Your Rubric unit leader could quite happily stand as a Sorcerer. Might be worth trading Spawn and Prince for a Lord and Sorc. If you took your Cultists as three units, that’d also yield 5CP. If you like a Cultist horde, an alternative could be to switch out the Bikers and take CSM units with las or mis?
Also, what’s your Legion?
I'll try out using Prescience and VOTLW with Endless Cacophony. I'll also try switching out the Bikers, since so far they've really struggled to do anything.
I've been switching between Renegades and Iron Warriors, though I've been interested in trying out the Alpha Legion trait.
Cool. AL will probably be pretty decent - T’au don’t want to get within 12” of Chaos, and you’ll take 33% fewer Marker Lights. I play a lot of 1K games, and I’ve found the extra CP from a Battalion - or even a Vanguard or Spearhead - to be pretty critical. It’s the difference between a reroll on a key psychic power not affecting a VotLW-EC combo, and even opening the door to doing it again.
Bikers can be decent in smaller games - especially if the table size is also small - but it’s situational and can be very Trait dependent. If your opponent’s not screened well, they can potentially run over three support characters... but that’s a big ‘if’.
Eldenfirefly wrote: He brings, Basilisks, mortar teams and Pask, and infantry of course. So, enough bubble wrap to make deep strike difficult and unlikely to pull off. Both Basilisks and mortar teams don't need line of sight, so he can just keep them in deep cover. If I can't see them, then I can't target them.
The mortar teams plus his other shooting can kill a team of 40 cultists, especially if he goes first. I tried this on him before, now he knows he must kill all 40.
Bring a Khorne Daemon detachment of a daemon prince with skullreaver relic and 20 or 30 bloodletters. Skullreaver prince will munch his gallant usually in 1 turn of combat and at least take 16 or so wounds off him. Bloodletters are hell for a gunline especially those that are light on anti infantry.
By shooting at his gallant you're falling unto his trap and leaving his gunline alone. Which for him is a great way to spend 350 points and a couple of CP.
If you want to only use CSM then mutilators just got much cheaper or a large blob of khorne bezerkers with VotLW and chain axes will also do a decent job.
just an update for everyone, me and my mate went to the doubles tournament and came first with out chaos list.
1st:: Death Guard/Renegades and heretics, Thousand sons
2nd: Tau/Tyranids
3rd: Double Orks IIRC
I took
Vanguard detachment
Ahirman on disc
2 x Hellbrute with fists
2 x contemptors with fists, combi bolters
1 x Decimator siege engine with soulburner petard and fist
Renegades and heretics brigade
Company commander
company commander
10 mutants
10 mutants
10 mutants
My Partner took
Nurgle prince with wings
Leviathan with dual butchers
Leviathan with dual Butchers
Doredeo with extoplasma cannons
10 cultists for... reasons im not sure of ??
Our first game was against Eldar/Necrons, we pulled an easy win, our 2nd was a world Eaters/Thousand sons list with Ahirman and Kharn, they conceded end of turn 4 and last game was .... imperial soup, mechanicus, custodes jetbikes lords, chaos alpha legion with lots of guns, they conceded end of our turn 4
Eldenfirefly wrote: He brings, Basilisks, mortar teams and Pask, and infantry of course. So, enough bubble wrap to make deep strike difficult and unlikely to pull off. Both Basilisks and mortar teams don't need line of sight, so he can just keep them in deep cover. If I can't see them, then I can't target them.
The mortar teams plus his other shooting can kill a team of 40 cultists, especially if he goes first. I tried this on him before, now he knows he must kill all 40.
Bring a Khorne Daemon detachment of a daemon prince with skullreaver relic and 20 or 30 bloodletters. Skullreaver prince will munch his gallant usually in 1 turn of combat and at least take 16 or so wounds off him. Bloodletters are hell for a gunline especially those that are light on anti infantry.
By shooting at his gallant you're falling unto his trap and leaving his gunline alone. Which for him is a great way to spend 350 points and a couple of CP.
If you want to only use CSM then mutilators just got much cheaper or a large blob of khorne bezerkers with VotLW and chain axes will also do a decent job.
I will try your suggestion. I actually did deep strike in with 20 blood letters in that game I played. But they failed their charge when I rolled a 7 on 3d6 ... And he has 6 mortars shooting as well so he has lots of anti infantry weapons. I just find IG infantry really irritating to remove with shooting. I had a big squad of horrors shooting and I still managed to only dent two 10 man infantry squad. (He used a strategem to give them a 4+ save but I also used a spell to give mine 2+ to wound, plus I had a change castor nearby so I considered it even). But even if I had managed to remove both squads (which I failed to do so), I used a 210 point unit plus hero support to remove 2 units that in total only cost 80 points. Just to have an idea, I brought 4 squads of nurglings (12) and after first turn, he had killed it down to 2 squads of 1 and 2 models each). So his anti infantry shooting was formidable.
Eldenfirefly wrote: He brings, Basilisks, mortar teams and Pask, and infantry of course. So, enough bubble wrap to make deep strike difficult and unlikely to pull off. Both Basilisks and mortar teams don't need line of sight, so he can just keep them in deep cover. If I can't see them, then I can't target them.
The mortar teams plus his other shooting can kill a team of 40 cultists, especially if he goes first. I tried this on him before, now he knows he must kill all 40.
Bring a Khorne Daemon detachment of a daemon prince with skullreaver relic and 20 or 30 bloodletters. Skullreaver prince will munch his gallant usually in 1 turn of combat and at least take 16 or so wounds off him. Bloodletters are hell for a gunline especially those that are light on anti infantry.
By shooting at his gallant you're falling unto his trap and leaving his gunline alone. Which for him is a great way to spend 350 points and a couple of CP.
If you want to only use CSM then mutilators just got much cheaper or a large blob of khorne bezerkers with VotLW and chain axes will also do a decent job.
I will try your suggestion. I actually did deep strike in with 20 blood letters in that game I played. But they failed their charge when I rolled a 7 on 3d6 ... And he has 6 mortars shooting as well so he has lots of anti infantry weapons. I just find IG infantry really irritating to remove with shooting. I had a big squad of horrors shooting and I still managed to only dent two 10 man infantry squad. (He used a strategem to give them a 4+ save but I also used a spell to give mine 2+ to wound, plus I had a change castor nearby so I considered it even). But even if I had managed to remove both squads (which I failed to do so), I used a 210 point unit plus hero support to remove 2 units that in total only cost 80 points. Just to have an idea, I brought 4 squads of nurglings (12) and after first turn, he had killed it down to 2 squads of 1 and 2 models each). So his anti infantry shooting was formidable.
7 on a 3d6 such a pain! I usually deepstrike my skulltaker with 20 of them. So they're still hitting on 2s or get my DP nearby so at least they're rerolling crappy charge rolls like that!
Yeah guard can be a pain but i normally leave guardsmen alone so i can focus on mortar teams and other easy targets. If he's hiding and screening everything well you could try deepstriking oblitorators and horrors. That should clear them fairly well and you only need to get within 18"/24"
Formosa wrote: just an update for everyone, me and my mate went to the doubles tournament and came first with out chaos list.
1st:: Death Guard/Renegades and heretics, Thousand sons
2nd: Tau/Tyranids
3rd: Double Orks IIRC
I took
Vanguard detachment
Ahirman on disc
2 x Hellbrute with fists
2 x contemptors with fists, combi bolters
1 x Decimator siege engine with soulburner petard and fist
Renegades and heretics brigade
Company commander
company commander
10 mutants
10 mutants
10 mutants
My Partner took
Nurgle prince with wings
Leviathan with dual butchers
Leviathan with dual Butchers
Doredeo with extoplasma cannons
10 cultists for... reasons im not sure of ??
Our first game was against Eldar/Necrons, we pulled an easy win, our 2nd was a world Eaters/Thousand sons list with Ahirman and Kharn, they conceded end of turn 4 and last game was .... imperial soup, mechanicus, custodes jetbikes lords, chaos alpha legion with lots of guns, they conceded end of our turn 4
Company Commanders? Also what you took was a battalion not a brigade.
I get battlion and brigade mixed up all the time, and yep those 5cp were very very helpful, mostly for keeping ahirman alive, re rolls and swapping powers when needed.
Might be mixing up the name of the company commanders but that's basically Thier statline without orders of course, these and the mutants were just to hold down OBS anyway, the dreads and ahirman did most of the killking, ahirman even somehow killing a custodes captain on a bike that fluffed all its saves after charging.
Formosa wrote: I get battlion and brigade mixed up all the time, and yep those 5cp were very very helpful, mostly for keeping ahirman alive, re rolls and swapping powers when needed.
Might be mixing up the name of the company commanders but that's basically Thier statline without orders of course, these and the mutants were just to hold down OBS anyway, the dreads and ahirman did most of the killking, ahirman even somehow killing a custodes captain on a bike that fluffed all its saves after charging.
Has anyone used a Hell Talon before? It is the big FW bomber. I got one for christmas and am using it for the first time this weekend. How should I go about using it? Is there any "best" bomb of the 3 choices?
vaklor4 wrote: Has anyone used a Hell Talon before? It is the big FW bomber. I got one for christmas and am using it for the first time this weekend. How should I go about using it? Is there any "best" bomb of the 3 choices?
First: lucky you.
Secondly,the bombs differ in target choice.
If you expect blobs, get yourself pyrax bombs and wipe it.
Shatter charges are kinda the allrounder it seems, not to mention that 6d6 mortal wounds on 3 + seem like a good way of removing a knight, or seriously hurting it
Warp pulse bombs could be very interesting against monster squads, or if you want to lower the aim and leadership. Altough, seems to be the iffiest out of it.
Formosa wrote: I get battlion and brigade mixed up all the time, and yep those 5cp were very very helpful, mostly for keeping ahirman alive, re rolls and swapping powers when needed.
Might be mixing up the name of the company commanders but that's basically Thier statline without orders of course, these and the mutants were just to hold down OBS anyway, the dreads and ahirman did most of the killking, ahirman even somehow killing a custodes captain on a bike that fluffed all its saves after charging.
Did you reroll Mutation throws?
nope, didnt know I could, most games they just got +1 attack anyway, a couple got +2 move, which only came into play in the last game when they made a mad dash to an objective in the centre of the board.
in hindsight I think traitor guard would be better for that army, but again its just for holding down obs, so its neither here nor there.
Formosa 768010 1 0312920 5fc866d985c125ea6fbb2d35ded1ea21.jpg wrote:I get battlion and brigade mixed up all the time, and yep those 5cp were very very helpful, mostly for keeping ahirman alive, re rolls and swapping powers when needed.
Might be mixing up the name of the company commanders but that's basically Thier statline without orders of course, these and the mutants were just to hold down OBS anyway, the dreads and ahirman did most of the killking, ahirman even somehow killing a custodes captain on a bike that fluffed all its saves after charging.
Did you reroll Mutation throws?
nope, didnt know I could, most games they just got +1 attack anyway, a couple got +2 move, which only came into play in the last game when they made a mad dash to an objective in the centre of the board.
in hindsight I think traitor guard would be better for that army, but again its just for holding down obs, so its neither here nor there.
Chance for that sweet t4 though.
On the other hand the militia champion atleast has bs 4+
Really a toss up, until the mutants decide to die because of Chaos spawnification syndrome.
drakerocket wrote: I was considering just doing a knight conversion as a base to a kytan because I like the look of knights better. Can't imagine anyone would be too ticked about it since they're both in the same class.
This is what I did too. I don’t think anyone would mistake that it’s a Kytan. I used the gauntlet to hold a D-Thirster’s axe (had a spare), used two “small” BT axes to make the bunny ears, and cut off the extra shoulder guns and put WHFB marauder shields onto the spots instead. Looks like a Kytan without any issue. And it of course has the assault cannon.
drakerocket wrote: I was considering just doing a knight conversion as a base to a kytan because I like the look of knights better. Can't imagine anyone would be too ticked about it since they're both in the same class.
This is what I did too. I don’t think anyone would mistake that it’s a Kytan. I used the gauntlet to hold a D-Thirster’s axe (had a spare), used two “small” BT axes to make the bunny ears, and cut off the extra shoulder guns and put WHFB marauder shields onto the spots instead. Looks like a Kytan without any issue. And it of course has the assault cannon.
What are people's thoughts on Renegade Mutilators after CA? At 35pts, they're now basically the cost of a terminator with c-bolter and axe, but they've got +1 wound, +1 attack, and a better weapon (generally). I know 4" move sucks on an assault unit, but the Renegade advance and charge trait can nullify it a bit. They can also benefit from Codex Daemon combos. At 105pts they seem like they could be a decent disruption suicide unit.
You're looking at over three turns, on average, before they get a charge off.
So... Still not very good. Might be decent as a Deep Strike unit (cheap as chips) that can vaguely bully stuff, but starting on the table is a non-starter.
Er... why would they EVER start on the board and walk?
Deepstrike turn 2, attempt a 9" charge, and then move 4"+D6" +2d6" charge every turn thereafter. With advance and charge, they don't seem any slower than any other deepstriking infantry.
McGibs wrote: What are people's thoughts on Renegade Mutilators after CA? At 35pts, they're now basically the cost of a terminator with c-bolter and axe, but they've got +1 wound, +1 attack, and a better weapon (generally). I know 4" move sucks on an assault unit, but the Renegade advance and charge trait can nullify it a bit. They can also benefit from Codex Daemon combos. At 105pts they seem like they could be a decent disruption suicide unit.
A lot more viable now could work well in renegades or in world eaters. You can ally Khorne herald, give mutilators mark of Khorne and reroll charges.
Plus he'll boost their strength so they're averaging 12 str 8 -2 AP 2D attacks. Which would make them fairly decent against even knights with VotLW.
McGibs wrote: What are people's thoughts on Renegade Mutilators after CA? At 35pts, they're now basically the cost of a terminator with c-bolter and axe, but they've got +1 wound, +1 attack, and a better weapon (generally). I know 4" move sucks on an assault unit, but the Renegade advance and charge trait can nullify it a bit. They can also benefit from Codex Daemon combos. At 105pts they seem like they could be a decent disruption suicide unit.
A lot more viable now could work well in renegades or in world eaters. You can ally Khorne herald, give mutilators mark of Khorne and reroll charges.
Plus he'll boost their strength so they're averaging 12 str 8 -2 AP 2D attacks. Which would make them fairly decent against even knights with VotLW.
If only the model would not look like a bootleg chinese knock off of obliterators.....
You make your own. cheaper AND better looking (an no duplicates if you run a lot)
... me 9 oblits at least. I don't think they're as bad as people make out. Have thought of converting some centurions for Alpha legion oblits but have far more pressing projects to do! Mutalators however need some love.
Darkseid wrote: What is the latest take on Blood Slaughterer versus Maulerfield after CA 2018?
Both came down in price, with the Maulerfied being around 30pts cheapter than the Blood Slaughterer.
Both fill the same battlefield role and have a similar profile, with each having a few strengths over the other.
Is the Blood Slaughterer worth it for 30pts more?
In my experience, yes. The Slaughterer is easier to get into cover, and overall just has a better kill potential against more targets. The handful of times ive played either unit, the Slaughterer ALWAYS got its points back, where the Maulerfiend usually just got shot to pieces or didnt really do much in the killing department and just acted as a meat shield for something else.
Darkseid wrote: What is the latest take on Blood Slaughterer versus Maulerfield after CA 2018?
Both came down in price, with the Maulerfied being around 30pts cheapter than the Blood Slaughterer.
Both fill the same battlefield role and have a similar profile, with each having a few strengths over the other.
Is the Blood Slaughterer worth it for 30pts more?
In my experience, yes. The Slaughterer is easier to get into cover, and overall just has a better kill potential against more targets. The handful of times ive played either unit, the Slaughterer ALWAYS got its points back, where the Maulerfiend usually just got shot to pieces or didnt really do much in the killing department and just acted as a meat shield for something else.
That...sounds like more luck than actual unit difference.
4 slaughterers cost exactly the same as 5 lasher maulers.
5 maulers have 60 wounds between them, while the slaughterers have only 40.
This means not only that the maulers as a group are 50% more durable (and a such you can claim a singly mauler is 50% more durable cost-compared), but they degrade slower, both individually as it takes 7 wounds to degrade one rather than 5, and as a group as it takes 12 wounds to lose a member, rather than 10.
Against non-infantry where the slaughter's bloody rampage ability does not trigger, I'd expect similar results from the two groups, even though the slaughterer has WS3, because the mauler has more attacks. compared to the 28 attacks the slaughterers throw, the maulers throw 20 superior ones, plus 30 more that are not as good, but still do alot by sheer numbers.
When fighting infantry with bloody rampage the slaughters become more deadly than maulers by clear margins if your targets are MEQ, but it drops again to about equal against GEQ-and honestly hitting either of them with maulers/slaughters looks a bit like a waste of your daemon engine, and blind fury means a slaughterer trapped by an time consuming tarpit cant disengage.
Basically the difference in most cases just isn't big enough. and in some a cases (like T5 3+ that isn't infantry, bikers for example) a single mauler actually out-punches a slaughterer in a one-to-one comparison.
Also, while khorne is a fine choice for your smashy engine, at times you want another god to synergies with another unit in your army. a mauler isn't god locked, giving it more options.
And I've seen photos of them side by side, the slaughterer isn't that much smaller. hiding one should not differ much.
TL;DR-slaughterers don't hit harder enough to compensate for the fact they are just squishy in comparison. at least for most lists.
drakerocket wrote: I was considering just doing a knight conversion as a base to a kytan because I like the look of knights better. Can't imagine anyone would be too ticked about it since they're both in the same class.
This is what I did too. I don’t think anyone would mistake that it’s a Kytan. I used the gauntlet to hold a D-Thirster’s axe (had a spare), used two “small” BT axes to make the bunny ears, and cut off the extra shoulder guns and put WHFB marauder shields onto the spots instead. Looks like a Kytan without any issue. And it of course has the assault cannon.
Pictures please!
Obviously not finished, but this should give the idea!
Recently wanted to build some stalk tanks for my renegades, instead i ended up with two modified Forgefiended amirigers and a S.C.A or a self crawling artillery piece.
But i dare say this one positive thing about knights, they are easily adaptable.
McGibs wrote: What are people's thoughts on Renegade Mutilators after CA? At 35pts, they're now basically the cost of a terminator with c-bolter and axe, but they've got +1 wound, +1 attack, and a better weapon (generally). I know 4" move sucks on an assault unit, but the Renegade advance and charge trait can nullify it a bit. They can also benefit from Codex Daemon combos. At 105pts they seem like they could be a decent disruption suicide unit.
A lot more viable now could work well in renegades or in world eaters. You can ally Khorne herald, give mutilators mark of Khorne and reroll charges.
Plus he'll boost their strength so they're averaging 12 str 8 -2 AP 2D attacks. Which would make them fairly decent against even knights with VotLW.
If only the model would not look like a bootleg chinese knock off of obliterators.....
Erm, how does allying in Khorne herald , and giving them mark of khorne make them able to reroll charges? @@ I thought Khorne herald just gives them +1 str.
Ah ok I see. Hmmm, that's not bad actually. Its still by no means a sure thing. But last game I played, I ended up rolling a 7 on 3d6 for my bloodletter bomb, so even that is by no means a sure thing either.... :( Now that I think about it abit more though, having a herald there basically means you increase the cost of that deepstrike drop. Just something to consider. Because while the Mutilator unit is around 100 points, the herald costs another 56 points. So, it ends up being close to the cost of a 20 man blood letter bomb anyway. And you need a pure khorne detachment too for the herald to get that loci.
Ah ok I see. Hmmm, that's not bad actually. Its still by no means a sure thing. But last game I played, I ended up rolling a 7 on 3d6 for my bloodletter bomb, so even that is by no means a sure thing either.... :( Now that I think about it abit more though, having a herald there basically means you increase the cost of that deepstrike drop. Just something to consider. Because while the Mutilator unit is around 100 points, the herald costs another 56 points. So, it ends up being close to the cost of a 20 man blood letter bomb anyway. And you need a pure khorne detachment too for the herald to get that loci.
Yeah, I approach this stuff at a list-building level - Heralds add most of 100pts to various daemon ploys, buuut their locus boosts other units as well. So, a bletterbomb like this can rendezvous with a Maulerfiend, Defiler, LoS, etc, and give it strength & charge boosts.
I like this sort of thing best with Slaanesh and Nurgle - the former to tag units with Fiends to make burning tar pits, the latter to heal big things that are feeding Epidemius. But giving loads of units a virtual Icon of Wrath is ace. Karanak is a pretty good choice for it, actually - cheap, fast, and gives Khorne some DTW coverage.
The head fins/bunny ears are both axes from a Bloodthirster; I had two kits, used the D-axe in one, and the double headed axe in the second, so I had the basic axe free for conversions from both boxes; so both basic axe heads were cut and trimmed to be the Kytan’s ears. And the second D-axe that was unused by a ‘Thirster sits in his left hand. Like I said, I don’t think anybody familiar w/Forgeworld would mistake it.
New beta rule leaked - AA & HA can double-tap with rapid fire bolt weapons at full range if they stand still or are a Terminator or Biker (or Centurion).
So... CB Chosen not affected *that* much, given that they generally won’t start play with a target and have to walk or ride towards it. Terminators and Bikers get an interesting boost. CB Biker champ could be pretty good, now. Blightlords... become a bit better at their niche, but at the same a lot more units can do their niche.
It’s a pretty good buff for Scarab Occult, and it’s ok for Rubrics. The latter will still have to either mover or a turn or two or hope that a target obliges, though.
I think this probably does the best for bikers, honestly. Not that bikes are great, but a 3 man squad with champ having a combi bolter becomes a pretty solid harassment unit if it can stay at 24 inches indefinitely, particularly if it is alpha legion.
Even a nine-man squad becomes a not awful choice for veterans of the long war / endless cacophony / prescience. It would be some pretty solid murder against boyz, guardians and other chaff.
Either selection is a good escort for a winged slan DP with the elixir.
Honestly I don't even hate the looks of an outrider of that with 1 big biker group and two small ones.
I wouldn't say competitive, but I think that extra 12 inch range can really give over some flexibility to a unit type which really banks on mobility (and staying outside of 12 inches for the alpha legion suitability increase).
After bikers you'd probably have to say rubrics.
Overall, probably deathwatch intercessors, land raider crusaders and dawneagle jetbikes got the best of it, however.
Math-hammer would have the above killing about I think....43-44 boys? 308 points. The bikers + prince clock in around 380. That's not the best trade, but it of course ignores a not-terrible melee profile vs non-melee units on the bikers and the mack-truck melee profile of the daemon prince.
Tragic that the warp bolter is assault 2 and not rapid fire 2 XD
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hrmm? Why wouldn't dawn eagles get it?
I wonder if there are any other changes forthcoming, or if that's the "fix" for power armor.
I love bikers, so this is a very welcome change. A little extra chaff-clearing shooting to open up lanes for berzerkers/dreads/bloodletters sounds great!
The change is very nice for vehicles as well, since they are in the category that always doubles shots.
This makes our double combi bolter Rhinos quite nice from any range, and its a nice touch of extra firepower for two points on anything that can take a combi bolter like Helbrute Fists, or a Defiler.
Basically, if you weren't gluing as many cheap combi bolters to your vehicles whenever you had the option, now you have a big incentive to.
I'm not convinced it will be outstanding on Bikers aside from giving just a tad more flexibility with target selection. Bikers are still going to by and large be looking to close quickly, as I imagine myself and others will continue to run them with Plasma (or Melta), which requires closing into very close range. But it will give them things to do from further away, and make the significantly more damaging providing firesupport from an objective, or shooting a squishies further away from their melta / plasma targets.
Okay, so I was looking at the new CA18 points values and noticed the loyalists get Terminators 5pts cheaper than Chaos Terminators. Is that a typo? What's up with that?
Actually, I love combi bolter bikes now, and if bolter discipline applies as long as its a bike, I think combi bolter bikes got a big buff.
Previously, I would move forward to 12 inches to get the double tap benefit. But now, my bike squad can stay at 24 inches and still get the double shot benefit just for being bikes. Thats good!!!
I mean, honestly, chaos bikers aren't really fantastic in melee. A half dead squad of infantry basically tanked my 3 man biker squad forever. So, erm yeah, I much rather stay at 24 inches and keep raining out bolter shots instead.
And I think combi bolter plus havoc launcher Rhinos can put out quite a bit of dakka now. There is something to be said for moving forward 12 inches and then unloading combi bolter and havoc launcher. You just forgo using smoke launchers. Its quite a lot of dakka for just 8 points more. And if I read it correctly, for 10 points more, you can have two combi bolters and a havoc launcher, which is really good dakka for just 10 points more.
BTW, that Abbadon led black legion shooty army just got deadlier lol. There are a ton of havocs and normal CSM in that mostly stationary army that would now be pumping out double the number of bolter shots now.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nurglitch wrote: Okay, so I was looking at the new CA18 points values and noticed the loyalists get Terminators 5pts cheaper than Chaos Terminators. Is that a typo? What's up with that?
Apparently, because Chaos has this strategem called cacophony, which allows slanaash terminators to shoot twice. They factor stuff like that in. Else how on earth would they raise cultist to 5 points and let Infantry squad remain at 4 points a model. Because of strategems like Vets, tide of traitors, etc etc.
So Terminators that are plain have a good boost. Our Bikers were already better than Loyalists and they got a nice little boost. Chosen are still better than Chaos Marines.
I wonder with the new bolter thing if putting warp time on a unit still allows them to double tap. The bolter rule is remained stationary in the previous movement phase.
Say you did that but in the psychic phase were warp timed would that still trigger that second bullet point in the rule allowing you to fire twice.
Crazy idea of 20 marines slannesh, warp time them and votlw + slannesh strat
80 30" bolter shots with +1 to wound
edit: wow mathahmmer it'd only kill 5/6 prmaris marines... normal CSM cannot be saved from the poopness XD
would kill like 34 orks thou
Latro_ wrote: I wonder with the new bolter thing if putting warp time on a unit still allows them to double tap. The bolter rule is remained stationary in the previous movement phase.
Say you did that but in the psychic phase were warp timed would that still trigger that second bullet point in the rule allowing you to fire twice.
Crazy idea of 20 marines slannesh, warp time them and votlw + slannesh strat
80 30" bolter shots with +1 to wound
edit: wow mathahmmer it'd only kill 5/6 prmaris marines... normal CSM cannot be saved from the poopness XD
would kill like 34 orks thou
You'd imagine 10'000 years old veterans with some other Veterans, would be capable of actually killing their marine counterparts somewhat decently.
Some of them are 10,000 year veterans. Others are fresh of the barge from the Heresy. They have munitions problems, morale problems, occasionally emotional disturbances, and their logistics would make a Munitorum official's augmetic-eyelid start twitching uncontrollably.
Nurglitch wrote: Okay, so I was looking at the new CA18 points values and noticed the loyalists get Terminators 5pts cheaper than Chaos Terminators. Is that a typo? What's up with that?
Apparently, because Chaos has this strategem called cacophony, which allows slanaash terminators to shoot twice. They factor stuff like that in. Else how on earth would they raise cultist to 5 points and let Infantry squad remain at 4 points a model. Because of strategems like Vets, tide of traitors, etc etc.
Having strats that boost a unit may or may not be part of it. Keep in mind that just about every army has strats and it's very hard to objectively compare most of them without the debate degrading to a "my dad can beat up your dad" style argument.
The real reason, I think, that Chaos Termies have a higher base cost is due to their cheaper options. GW seems to want Chaos & Loyalist termies to be roughly the same cost after wargear. Since Chaos termies can take cheaper melee weapons, the cost had to come in somewhere. And while adding Comb-weapons can jack up their cost, they become arguably much better than their Loyalist counterparts even before you start considering Strats.
IMO, the fact that GW prices units like this gives me continued optimism that maybe, just maybe, they know what they are doing sometimes.
Don’t try to make ‘Warptime then shoot as if stationary’ a thing, it’s clearly not going to happen. At the very least a RAW lawyer will build a counterpoint of Warptime being ‘as if it were their movement phase’ and no TO is going to lowit.
Agreed. People try and break warp time enough as it is.
I am liking this bolter change but i still find it hard to figure out how my chaos bikers should be loaded out and what roll they can fill that could not be filled by other chaos units....
Nurglitch wrote: Okay, so I was looking at the new CA18 points values and noticed the loyalists get Terminators 5pts cheaper than Chaos Terminators. Is that a typo? What's up with that?
Apparently, because Chaos has this strategem called cacophony, which allows slanaash terminators to shoot twice. They factor stuff like that in. Else how on earth would they raise cultist to 5 points and let Infantry squad remain at 4 points a model. Because of strategems like Vets, tide of traitors, etc etc.
Having strats that boost a unit may or may not be part of it. Keep in mind that just about every army has strats and it's very hard to objectively compare most of them without the debate degrading to a "my dad can beat up your dad" style argument.
The real reason, I think, that Chaos Termies have a higher base cost is due to their cheaper options. GW seems to want Chaos & Loyalist termies to be roughly the same cost after wargear. Since Chaos termies can take cheaper melee weapons, the cost had to come in somewhere. And while adding Comb-weapons can jack up their cost, they become arguably much better than their Loyalist counterparts even before you start considering Strats.
IMO, the fact that GW prices units like this gives me continued optimism that maybe, just maybe, they know what they are doing sometimes.
-
Then they need to cost the Strategems different. GW really doesn't know what they're doing in that regard. It HAS to assume you have all Combi-Plasma and you're Slaanesh.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Apparently, because Chaos has this strategem called cacophony, which allows slanaash terminators to shoot twice. They factor stuff like that in. Else how on earth would they raise cultist to 5 points and let Infantry squad remain at 4 points a model. Because of strategems like Vets, tide of traitors, etc etc.
At first that made sense to me, but then I noticed that Chosen, Raptors, and Havocs all have the opportunity for those strategems without any additional cost above and beyond their SM equivalents (Sternguard, Assault squads, and Devastators squads).
Exactly. For whatever reason, GW didn't assume your Raptors are all Khorne with the rerolling charge banner and you always have 3CP to fight twice. It's just really bad inconsistency to me.
Nurglitch wrote: I'm going with the notion that 8 and 3 really look alike and that my money, were I a betting-person, would go on a typo.
Na, it's because we have cheaper equipment possibilities which seemed unfair....
Now we pay Spike tax so that our worse equipment does not outdo loyalists terminators.
God forbid we had something better then them that isn't fething dp 's
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster 5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster 5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster 5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster 5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster 5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
Rhino, 2x Combi-Bolter Rhino, 2x Combi-Bolter
Light on CP, but all it really needs to do is double shoot a Havoc unit every turn. Lucius is a fun lord who is nice and cheap for what he does. List feels like it might be up for a struggle against any high body count army, especially one like Orks, though Legion trait and Lucius may help out a little with that. I'm wondering if I might be better off just dropping the Havocs and the Sorceror for 3 more squads worth of Noise Marines honestly.
I'd consider taking some Sonic Dreadnoughts, they cost about the same as a 5 man noise marine squad, and have a separate shoot twice stratagem that means they put out quite a lot of shots.
Azuza001 wrote: Agreed. People try and break warp time enough as it is.
I am liking this bolter change but i still find it hard to figure out how my chaos bikers should be loaded out and what roll they can fill that could not be filled by other chaos units....
If was gonna go competitive i'd take a unit of 3 just with bolters and the champ with a combi bolter.
16 bolter shots at 24" all the time
can move 20" if they need to
So chaff clearing, general harassment
Get to objs super quick
3 of them lined up is fairly big foot print for blocking / deep strike denial
Use them to tie up a enemy vehicle
I'd consider taking some Sonic Dreadnoughts, they cost about the same as a 5 man noise marine squad, and have a separate shoot twice stratagem that means they put out quite a lot of shots.
I'd consider taking some Sonic Dreadnoughts, they cost about the same as a 5 man noise marine squad, and have a separate shoot twice stratagem that means they put out quite a lot of shots.
where can i find info on them?
It's in the FAQ... for Chaos Forge World, I think. It's basically a Helbrute with a twin blastmaster.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: What does Lucius bring to the table, exactly, you won't get from a regular Chaos Lord? I'm curious on the justification.
Nothing really. His cost is about the same, he does about the same as a regular lord. He is not a krom dragongaze thats for sure. Technically he is worse than a normal lord with only a 5++.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: What does Lucius bring to the table, exactly, you won't get from a regular Chaos Lord? I'm curious on the justification.
Nothing really. His cost is about the same, he does about the same as a regular lord. He is not a krom dragongaze thats for sure. Technically he is worse than a normal lord with only a 5++.
The list should really replace Lucius for a regular Chaos Lord then. Power Fist and the Bolt Pistol replaced with the Relic one that Emperors Children get.
With the new bolter change, 3 units of 3 bikers up to the teeth on bolters would make a really funky and cheap way to begin transforming our battalion into a brigade. I have found that fast slots are the most difficult ones to fill usually.
topaxygouroun i wrote: With the new bolter change, 3 units of 3 bikers up to the teeth on bolters would make a really funky and cheap way to begin transforming our battalion into a brigade. I have found that fast slots are the most difficult ones to fill usually.
I haven't read our codex in a while, but we still get to keep our Chainsword if we take a special weapon right?
That's a minimum 6 Bolter shots and 3-6 Plasma shots. That's not exactly a terrible deal.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: What does Lucius bring to the table, exactly, you won't get from a regular Chaos Lord? I'm curious on the justification.
Nothing really. His cost is about the same, he does about the same as a regular lord. He is not a krom dragongaze thats for sure. Technically he is worse than a normal lord with only a 5++.
The list should really replace Lucius for a regular Chaos Lord then. Power Fist and the Bolt Pistol replaced with the Relic one that Emperors Children get.
hmm thats like 2 pts cheaper than Lucius, for a model with less damage Vs characters, and a worse pistol than the one he already has, that costs a CP to equip. I think I'll just stick with Lucius, it's a sidegrade at best and 2 pts isn't a relevant change in any way at all.
I would make 1-2 10 men squads.
The slaanesh strategem works better with it, and they fit in a rhino.
Looks like a solid list, what could go wrong?
... besides 40 raging Orks jump in ya face and bound everything.
but you have enough dakka and noise marines have 2 attacks.
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
Rhino, 2x Combi-Bolter
Rhino, 2x Combi-Bolter
Light on CP, but all it really needs to do is double shoot a Havoc unit every turn. Lucius is a fun lord who is nice and cheap for what he does. List feels like it might be up for a struggle against any high body count army, especially one like Orks, though Legion trait and Lucius may help out a little with that. I'm wondering if I might be better off just dropping the Havocs and the Sorceror for 3 more squads worth of Noise Marines honestly.
I assume you don't play against any Dark Eldar opponents, because if you do, you're probably going to lose 2 squads of noise marines minimum per turn, every turn, just from the disintegrator volleys, while something like wyches/bikes/grotesques tie up your leviathans from turn 2 onwards due to your inability to screen them effectively.
I assume you don't play against any Dark Eldar opponents, because if you do, you're probably going to lose 2 squads of noise marines minimum per turn, every turn, just from the disintegrator volleys, while something like wyches/bikes/grotesques tie up your leviathans from turn 2 onwards due to your inability to screen them effectively.
To be fair, at least with Noise Marines they are shooting as they go down, and DE Vehicles are far from immune to the Blast Masters in those Noise Marine squads. You can make the criticism you just made for absolutely any heavy MEQ oriented list. At least the Noise Marines can do something on their way out. Dark Eldar are good, but man, this isn't a list criticism just a post saying "lolDE", and the DE matchup isn't even as bad as it is for most power armor lists!
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
Rhino, 2x Combi-Bolter
Rhino, 2x Combi-Bolter
Light on CP, but all it really needs to do is double shoot a Havoc unit every turn. Lucius is a fun lord who is nice and cheap for what he does. List feels like it might be up for a struggle against any high body count army, especially one like Orks, though Legion trait and Lucius may help out a little with that. I'm wondering if I might be better off just dropping the Havocs and the Sorceror for 3 more squads worth of Noise Marines honestly.
I assume you don't play against any Dark Eldar opponents, because if you do, you're probably going to lose 2 squads of noise marines minimum per turn, every turn, just from the disintegrator volleys, while something like wyches/bikes/grotesques tie up your leviathans from turn 2 onwards due to your inability to screen them effectively.
My experience is that disintegrators are effective against everything marines, the Rhino's will help a little in this regard, and at least Noise Marines will be trading up with them as they go down. Other than Storm Shields which aren't even on the menu for us, I can't think of any Marines who would be positioned better against what you describe than Noisey bois. Its just the nature of the army I think, not much point in playing EC if you aren't taking any Marines. It's like saying to a custodes player, "you know that those mortal wounds are going to hurt right?". There isnt really a response to that other than "Yeah... but I still want to play custodes."
I would do chaos lord, black mace and warlord trait exalted champion. This gives you 5 str 7 ap-2 2dmg attacks vs lucius's 5 str 4 ap-3 2dmg attacks. Granted lucius gets +2 attacks when targeting a chr but the chaos lord has a 4++ save to lucius and costs a tad bit cheaper (78 vs 85).
Having said that taking lucius isnt going to make much of a difference in game. It really comes down to that 5++ save for me though.
Azuza001 wrote: I would do chaos lord, black mace and warlord trait exalted champion. This gives you 5 str 7 ap-2 2dmg attacks vs lucius's 5 str 4 ap-3 2dmg attacks. Granted lucius gets +2 attacks when targeting a chr but the chaos lord has a 4++ save to lucius and costs a tad bit cheaper (78 vs 85).
Having said that taking lucius isnt going to make much of a difference in game. It really comes down to that 5++ save for me though.
Definitely a better choice then. I'll swap it over when I get the model, I already have a Lucius and not too keen to buy and model a new Lord just yet, especially just to save like 9 pts. As I said, he's mostly a thematic inclusion at the moment and the points difference is negligible. Good advice though.
How do you guys handle imperium players who use mortars and Basilisks. They get hidden out of sight and get to shoot at you for multiple turns. Its actually ridiculously efficient. Plus I can't really get into a shooting war with something I can't even see.
And while melee seems to be the way to go. Imperium has lots of points left to spend on bubble wrap and melee stuff too because its not like a few mortar teams and Basilisks are that expensive.
Eldenfirefly wrote: How do you guys handle imperium players who use mortars and Basilisks. They get hidden out of sight and get to shoot at you for multiple turns. Its actually ridiculously efficient. Plus I can't really get into a shooting war with something I can't even see.
And while melee seems to be the way to go. Imperium has lots of points left to spend on bubble wrap and melee stuff too because its not like a few mortar teams and Basilisks are that expensive.
Cultist bomb, and since i also play r&h i generally also have enough los ignoring firepower to severly cripple them.
Edit: a melee one can tie up multiple units of him.
Eldenfirefly wrote: How do you guys handle imperium players who use mortars and Basilisks. They get hidden out of sight and get to shoot at you for multiple turns. Its actually ridiculously efficient. Plus I can't really get into a shooting war with something I can't even see.
And while melee seems to be the way to go. Imperium has lots of points left to spend on bubble wrap and melee stuff too because its not like a few mortar teams and Basilisks are that expensive.
Cultist bomb, and since i also play r&h i generally also have enough los ignoring firepower to severly cripple them.
Edit: a melee one can tie up multiple units of him.
Actually good sir, i thought more along the lines off double the ammount of his mortars, if i may say so. I mean he has the oppurtunity, arguable even the better LOS ignoring firepower since renegades can take 6 hwt's with mortars per one support slot alone.
@Eldenfirefly: Alternatively, just take stuff that is fast and has lots of attacks. Fancy Charachter intensive lists don't do that great against mass imperium armies and once he has no more basiliscs his firepower isn't all that impressive anymore.
So i currently thinking about buying a Termit and Assault Dread Claw, but are they better than the standart Rhinos and Landraider? Since the start of the edition i tried the assault dread claw, it were a cool tool of destruction and transportation. But then i tried my predators as rhinos and recognised that they are great for malstream missons. so what is your opinion is it better to cut the little rhinos and get one big smash in to the face of the enemy.
So this is my standard 2 battalions world eater list:
Legion: World Eaters
+ HQ +
Dark Apostle [5 PL, 76pts]: 3. Unholy Fortitude, Bolt pistol, Brass Collar of Borghaster, Mark of Khorne, Power maul, Warlord
Exalted Champion [5 PL, 71pts]: Chainaxe, Chainsword, Mark of Khorne
Exalted Champion [5 PL, 71pts]: Chainaxe, Chainsword, Mark of Khorne
Warpsmith [5 PL, 60pts]: Bolt pistol, Flamer, Meltagun, No Chaos Mark, Power axe
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 52pts]: No Chaos Mark . 8x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun . Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Heavy stubber . Cultist Champion: Autogun
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 171pts]: Icon of Wrath . Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist . 8x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 8x Chainaxe
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 171pts]: Icon of Wrath . Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist . 8x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 8x Chainaxe
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 171pts]: Icon of Wrath . Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist . 8x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 8x Chainaxe
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Anything is better than the Land Raider because a single dude charging it stops it from firing or moving forward.
My list is all about berzerkes so i would be happy if he comes to me, but yeah if you just have a landraider in the end and he want stop tying it up you are pretty fethed...
Having been giving a lot of thought to screens and the new beta bolter rule. Would love to get some other perspectives.
Meatshields are a big part of my game, they are there to get screen, fall back from combat, and die. I'm really torn between Cultists and R&H for this purpose. The two variants I've been using are:
R&H - 2 Renegade Commanders and 3 Militia Squads with a mortar each. 38 models total.
Cultists - 2 20 man Cultist squads, 40 models total.
The trade offs are between Legion traits / Stratagems for cultists over the extra 5 CP you get with another detachment (not to mention the addition characters.) Say what you want about Tide of Traitors / auras / leadership buffs, I'm not convinced they matter as much for 10 - 20 man units of Cultists. Would love to know what other people think.
With regards to the beta bolter rule, double combi-bolter Rhinos have been getting some work done for me. Is anyone else using them? 8 bolter shots at 24 inches per model is useful against light infantry and for picking a wound or two off anything else. More importantly, it's low on the target priority list, I've had a few games where opponents never got around to shooting at them.
Skullphoquer wrote: So i currently thinking about buying a Termit and Assault Dread Claw, but are they better than the standart Rhinos and Landraider?
Since the start of the edition i tried the assault dread claw, it were a cool tool of destruction and transportation.
But then i tried my predators as rhinos and recognised that they are great for malstream missons.
so what is your opinion is it better to cut the little rhinos and get one big smash in to the face of the enemy.
I've been using a Termite Drill full of berserkers for a handful of games, and while I really like it, I'm still trying to figure out the best way to use it.
The obvious thing is to deepstrike it turn two, but with berserkers, you really want a turn two charge and even with an icon it's not a great odd. By turn 3, the game is usually decided and having assault units not chopping stuff up as fast as possible sucks. If I were deepstriking the drill, I think shooting units are a better choice, like C-Bolter Chosen, or Rubrics.
If you've got threat saturation, you can start the drill on the table and run it up. It's basically a rhino (little tougher, but slower and has no smoke launchers). I've been able to reliably get turn 2 charges (though I play renegades) with the berserkers, which I think is much more useful than deepstriking it. Then the drill itself is a monster in combat, and absolutely devours characters.
The Claw I think loses out on pretty much all counts to the drill and rhinos, EXCEPT that you can stick a contemptor in it. Then you have a double whammy dreadnought rocket. Just save that command re roll if the claw blows up and takes the dread with it.
techsoldaten wrote: Having been giving a lot of thought to screens and the new beta bolter rule. Would love to get some other perspectives.
Meatshields are a big part of my game, they are there to get screen, fall back from combat, and die. I'm really torn between Cultists and R&H for this purpose. The two variants I've been using are:
R&H - 2 Renegade Commanders and 3 Militia Squads with a mortar each. 38 models total.
Cultists - 2 20 man Cultist squads, 40 models total.
The trade offs are between Legion traits / Stratagems for cultists over the extra 5 CP you get with another detachment (not to mention the addition characters.) Say what you want about Tide of Traitors / auras / leadership buffs, I'm not convinced they matter as much for 10 - 20 man units of Cultists. Would love to know what other people think.
With regards to the beta bolter rule, double combi-bolter Rhinos have been getting some work done for me. Is anyone else using them? 8 bolter shots at 24 inches per model is useful against light infantry and for picking a wound or two off anything else. More importantly, it's low on the target priority list, I've had a few games where opponents never got around to shooting at them.
let me get this straight, you are using 3x12 militia with an mortar each.
I personally don't think cultists are worth it compared to chaff, if your intention is to screen objective camp and die for them.
For the 2 x20 cultists you can literally field a whole battalion in renegades, and throw in some equipment if you so wish.
However the cultists blob shenanigans with tide of traitors + cacophony on a fresh 40 man blob is still one of the better surpises we atm can pull.
In regards to the rhino, it kind of made the havoc launcher obsolete.
Kind off, frankly the havoc launcher could really need a boost, and or a rhino variant that loses some transport capacity but get's to mount a bigger variant of it.
In regards to the rhino, it kind of made the havoc launcher obsolete.
Kind off, frankly the havoc launcher could really need a boost, and or a rhino variant that loses some transport capacity but get's to mount a bigger variant of it.
Eh, i have mixed feelings about the Havoc Launcher. Remember CA dropped its price down to 5 points, and Havoc Launchers don't usually take up a hardpoint on Chaos Vehicles (including Rhinos). So there is nothing stopping you from running a Rhino with 2 Combi-Bolters and a Havoc Launcher. The Havoc Launcher isn't great in itself, but for 5 points it adds a bit more small arms dakka. Honestly for what its worth i kind of like the Havoc Launcher, the only change I would make to the Havoc Laucher would be to let it ignore line of sight. Its still only available on vehicles, and its profile isn't that versatile. So letting it ignore LOS wouldn't be the biggest buff in the world.
In regards to the rhino, it kind of made the havoc launcher obsolete.
Kind off, frankly the havoc launcher could really need a boost, and or a rhino variant that loses some transport capacity but get's to mount a bigger variant of it.
Eh, i have mixed feelings about the Havoc Launcher. Remember CA dropped its price down to 5 points, and Havoc Launchers don't usually take up a hardpoint on Chaos Vehicles (including Rhinos). So there is nothing stopping you from running a Rhino with 2 Combi-Bolters and a Havoc Launcher. The Havoc Launcher isn't great in itself, but for 5 points it adds a bit more small arms dakka. Honestly for what its worth i kind of like the Havoc Launcher, the only change I would make to the Havoc Laucher would be to let it ignore line of sight. Its still only available on vehicles, and its profile isn't that versatile. So letting it ignore LOS wouldn't be the biggest buff in the world.
79 points for 8 S4 and 3.5 S5 shots on a platform as durable as the Rhino isn't exactly a bad deal.
Hey guys I've been wanting to build a small halfway decent CSM alpha legion army, anyone know some good sources to read about how to play them?
Plan is to use mostly B@C stuff with cultists and anything else I can find that doesn't look super demony. Already aware that's probably not the best but that's fine. Figured I could build around a core of cultists and have the marines fill specialist roles, so lots of stuff like chosen, havocs, terminators, etc. With any luck the cultists would help take the pressure off them since I'm sure baseline CSM troop squads aren't very good. Basically paint them heresy colors and play it as "we're totally loyal guys, no chaos here" and run no daemon units. Or at least daemon units that can't be played off as a loyalist equivalent.
Does that sound like a solid enough plan for a casual list?
Well, make sure you emphasize yours is a fluffy casual list, so that people don't bring competitive lists against you and you should be fine.
Bring lots of Havocs and set them up in ruins and cover to get maximum benefit from your Alpha legion trait. Start with that as a baseline. Remember to have fun.
I’m running 3 Helbrutes in a renegade vanguard detachment along with 2 contemptors. Contemptors are dual claw with Soulburner s riding in Dreadclaws. HQ is a jump pack lord. Running a battalion of world eaters, 3x Berzerkers in rhinos with a dark Apostle and exalted champ. Axes/swords on Berzerkers, Fist and chainsword on champs.
Would you run the Helbrutes with dual scourges for the crap load of S8 attacks (11, I think), or would you run them with dual Fists to have fewer (5?) S12 attacks with some combi bolters?
The dual scourge brutes have much more versatility with S8, having the ability to take on </-T7 vehicles and monsters and ></-T5 troops pretty well. They also eat up something like 120 extra points over the fists. The fists are 2 strength shy of wounding T7 on 2’s, so unless the target is T8 the wound roll will be no different. Of course, -1 AP and +1 damage are both perks for the fists.
Hallowed mathhammer says about 3.7 wounds inflicted on T8 with scourges and about 2.2 with fists. Against 3+ saves that would translate to 4.9 damage. Fists would cause about 5.5 damage. Against T7 3+ scourges would cause roughly 6.5 wounds while fists would again cause about 5.5 damage.
Against hordes or even just 10-man infantry squads the scourges will do serious work, while the fists will only crush a couple of weaklings per fight or so. Unless the target has 3 wound models the extra damage won’t really matter in this case.
Still, 120 points would allow 2 additional objective secured units of 10 cultists along with 24 combi-bolter shots per turn (that they’re all alive), both of which have value. 8 points left to do whatever with. The rhinos each have 2 combi bolters, so combined firepower would be 48 bolter shots per turn in this scenario. That could be enough to punch a hole in a screen or threaten snipers in cover, whereas the 24 from just the rhinos may not cut it.
What do you think?
Edit: Oops, my math was wrong, I would only have 90 additional points with dual fists. So not quite as useful as 120, but still decent. 1 fewer unit of cultists, let’s say.
Keep helbrutes cheap, I say. Double fists with combibolters go a long way. They're good soldier-walkers that can lift a lot, but at the end of the day 8 wounds with no invul is pretty brittle. Your berserkers (and combibolters) should be clearing chaff just fine, and your walkers should be smacking around tougher targets.
One Scourge with Reaper, Plasma or heavy Bolter is cheap and threatens many things. Two scourges are too expensive I'd say, as Helbrutes aren't very durable and with that damage Output there's nothing you can distract your opponent with.
I agree with others. Generally speaking you are going to want to keep Helbrute's pretty cheap, especially melee brutes, and that is the scourge's biggest problems.
The Scourge is a great weapon. But its expensive points wise, especially after the Fist got a points decrease and the second is even cheaper. As others have said, Helbrutes are not durable and fall pretty quickly even to small arms fire. Loading up on specialist weapons to make them deal mucho damage in cqc is a dangerous proposition because its so easy to nuke them before they can get there.
Even with a pair of fists and combi bolters a Helbrute is still dangerous in close combat. It is also more dangerous in shooting, especially now thanks to the new Bolter rule. I agree with others though, getting a good ranged weapon on your Helbrute helps them contribute the whole game.
Eldenfirefly wrote: How do you guys handle imperium players who use mortars and Basilisks. They get hidden out of sight and get to shoot at you for multiple turns. Its actually ridiculously efficient. Plus I can't really get into a shooting war with something I can't even see.
And while melee seems to be the way to go. Imperium has lots of points left to spend on bubble wrap and melee stuff too because its not like a few mortar teams and Basilisks are that expensive.
Meant to respond to this a while ago.
Consider using Hellforged Scorpius tanks to clean out Basilisks and mortars. They are my go-to for games against Guard.
You don't need LOS to target anything and you get a ton of shots when you stay still. But them next to Abaddon for superior accuracy.
akaean wrote: I agree with others. Generally speaking you are going to want to keep Helbrute's pretty cheap, especially melee brutes, and that is the scourge's biggest problems.
The Scourge is a great weapon. But its expensive points wise, especially after the Fist got a points decrease and the second is even cheaper. As others have said, Helbrutes are not durable and fall pretty quickly even to small arms fire. Loading up on specialist weapons to make them deal mucho damage in cqc is a dangerous proposition because its so easy to nuke them before they can get there.
Even with a pair of fists and combi bolters a Helbrute is still dangerous in close combat. It is also more dangerous in shooting, especially now thanks to the new Bolter rule. I agree with others though, getting a good ranged weapon on your Helbrute helps them contribute the whole game.
How is scourge too expensive?
A scourge/reaper brute is 1 point over a double fist brute with combies.
Is only to expensive if you try having both weapons, rather than pick one or the other.
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
Rhino, 2x Combi-Bolter
Rhino, 2x Combi-Bolter
Light on CP, but all it really needs to do is double shoot a Havoc unit every turn. Lucius is a fun lord who is nice and cheap for what he does. List feels like it might be up for a struggle against any high body count army, especially one like Orks, though Legion trait and Lucius may help out a little with that. I'm wondering if I might be better off just dropping the Havocs and the Sorceror for 3 more squads worth of Noise Marines honestly.
I assume you don't play against any Dark Eldar opponents, because if you do, you're probably going to lose 2 squads of noise marines minimum per turn, every turn, just from the disintegrator volleys, while something like wyches/bikes/grotesques tie up your leviathans from turn 2 onwards due to your inability to screen them effectively.
My experience is that disintegrators are effective against everything marines, the Rhino's will help a little in this regard, and at least Noise Marines will be trading up with them as they go down. Other than Storm Shields which aren't even on the menu for us, I can't think of any Marines who would be positioned better against what you describe than Noisey bois. Its just the nature of the army I think, not much point in playing EC if you aren't taking any Marines. It's like saying to a custodes player, "you know that those mortal wounds are going to hurt right?". There isnt really a response to that other than "Yeah... but I still want to play custodes."
This doesn't get discussed enough. My local meta is infested with Dark Eldar lists, most of which max out on Ravagers / Raiders, Venoms, Razorwings and / or Voidravens.
After some attempts with World Eaters, I've settled on an Emperor's Children list for games against Drukhari. While my list is still in playtesting mode, what I'm finding is speed and fight-first tricks definitely help. Here's what I've been using, comments on how it works down below.
CSM Batallion
- DP with Wings
- CL in Terminator Armor
- 4x 5-man Noise Marines
- 2x 5-man Chosen
- 2x Bikers with 1 plasma gun
- Helbrute, fist and scourge
- 3x Rhinos, double combi-bolters
CD Battalion
- 2x Enrapturess
- 3x 20-gal Daemonettes
There's a few variations I use, where I swap in Fiends, Heldrakes, and Contemptors, and where I put the DP in the CD Battalion for Locus of Swiftness. But I'm not confident enough in those units, seems like cheap troops that move fast and strike first is the best way to go.
The list starts with 13 CPs and I use 3 for Denziens of the Warp on the Daemonettes before the game begins. The Rhinos / Bikes deploy ahead of the HQs and take the majority of fire first turn. Second turn, troops deploy and I deep strike everything to tie up as much of my opponent's army as possible, shooting up everything I can't charge.
The reason this works is mostly due to the Legion Trait, Daemonic Loci and the banners on the Daemonettes. Being able to fight first is a huge advantage against Drukhari, there's been games where I tie up a whole army for a couple turns. This sets up some very powerful shooting tactics, where the NMs and Chosen are massed and able to dish out a ton of shots.
That said, one of the big problems I run into is with shooting after the third turn. Placing the NMs and Chosen is tricky. Once the Daemonettes hit the field, they tie up so much there's not as many targets to shoot at, you really need to have them in an optimal position when the Daemonettes go down. Opponents frequently fall back out of combat just out of range of the Sonic Blasters / Combi-bolters, which means they're moving again.
Another big problem has been is with the Talos / Ravagers / Flyers, I just don't have enough heavy weapons on the field to deal with them efficiently. I've been getting by with the DP but wish I had something else fast and shooty to deal with them.
Anyways, still playtesting, but would love thoughts / ideas on how to improve against Drukhari. Am under no illusion about how this would perform against Orks, IG or other armies.
akaean wrote: I agree with others. Generally speaking you are going to want to keep Helbrute's pretty cheap, especially melee brutes, and that is the scourge's biggest problems.
The Scourge is a great weapon. But its expensive points wise, especially after the Fist got a points decrease and the second is even cheaper. As others have said, Helbrutes are not durable and fall pretty quickly even to small arms fire. Loading up on specialist weapons to make them deal mucho damage in cqc is a dangerous proposition because its so easy to nuke them before they can get there.
Even with a pair of fists and combi bolters a Helbrute is still dangerous in close combat. It is also more dangerous in shooting, especially now thanks to the new Bolter rule. I agree with others though, getting a good ranged weapon on your Helbrute helps them contribute the whole game.
How is scourge too expensive?
A scourge/reaper brute is 1 point over a double fist brute with combies.
Is only to expensive if you try having both weapons, rather than pick one or the other.
Thats pretty much exactly why its too expensive. If your running a hellbrute for close combat with double fists vs scourge fist its a 25 pt difference. Personally I prefer the dual fist setup. Run it up as a distraction carnifex and watch the enemy pour fire into them to try and stop them. At 104 pts you get one with whatever mark you want with 5 str 12 ap-3 flat 3 dmg hits and 8 shots at 24" thanks to the new bolter rules. Damn effective use of points.
I used one with Double fists and one with scourge /Reaper in my last games and both did their work. Fists are better against vehicles, scourge is better against anything else. Just don't combine lascannon/CC weapon or two scourges, anything else works really and is cheap enough.
Anybody use a twin lascannon and missile launcher brute? Only 120 points now, and if a suitably elite target wanders too close (or the units around it are shot off the board) you can hit them with four lascannons and two krak missiles for only 1CP. Worth throwing prescience on
Snake Tortoise wrote: Anybody use a twin lascannon and missile launcher brute? Only 120 points now, and if a suitably elite target wanders too close (or the units around it are shot off the board) you can hit them with four lascannons and two krak missiles for only 1CP. Worth throwing prescience on
i prefer the reaper autocannon, that said i think dakka brutes are reasonable, if there is a cheap chaos lord nearby sitting all the better.
akaean wrote: I agree with others. Generally speaking you are going to want to keep Helbrute's pretty cheap, especially melee brutes, and that is the scourge's biggest problems.
The Scourge is a great weapon. But its expensive points wise, especially after the Fist got a points decrease and the second is even cheaper. As others have said, Helbrutes are not durable and fall pretty quickly even to small arms fire. Loading up on specialist weapons to make them deal mucho damage in cqc is a dangerous proposition because its so easy to nuke them before they can get there.
Even with a pair of fists and combi bolters a Helbrute is still dangerous in close combat. It is also more dangerous in shooting, especially now thanks to the new Bolter rule. I agree with others though, getting a good ranged weapon on your Helbrute helps them contribute the whole game.
How is scourge too expensive?
A scourge/reaper brute is 1 point over a double fist brute with combies.
Is only to expensive if you try having both weapons, rather than pick one or the other.
Thats pretty much exactly why its too expensive. If your running a hellbrute for close combat with double fists vs scourge fist its a 25 pt difference. Personally I prefer the dual fist setup. Run it up as a distraction carnifex and watch the enemy pour fire into them to try and stop them. At 104 pts you get one with whatever mark you want with 5 str 12 ap-3 flat 3 dmg hits and 8 shots at 24" thanks to the new bolter rules. Damn effective use of points.
Did you even read my entire post?
You DONT use both a scourge and a fist, pick one.
A scourge with a reaper costs 1 point more than the double-fist with bolters build, and is superior when punching light targets.
You pick your targets when building the list, and both builds cost the same so its not really a contest.
I did read your entire post. You said the only way they are too expensive is if your trying to take both, which i replied is exactly why they are too expensive. Dont read subtext into it man, i was agreeing with you and going into more detail as to why its too expensive and why double fist on a melee brute works better.
Personally i love the scourge, i think its a better weapon if your only taking one melee weapon on your hellbrute. But I normally take either pure dakka brutes (twin laz / missile) or pure melee (double fist).
On a different note i also agree that renegade melee brutes are best. However you lose access to vets of the long war for the rest of the army which can be problematic in some builds.
I run black legion and while losing the ability to advance and charge sucks at least they can still put out 4 shots at 24" on the turn they advanced. I find people are not too interested in charging 80 cultists that have 3 hellbrutres in fist loadout and abaddon sitting inside them.
I suppose I should come clean as well, as a dedicated Emperor's Children player the majority of my experiences with Brutes are with the double blast master strapped onto an arm. Which likely gives me a more favorable view on Helbrutes than most other Chaos players, as the double BM is the best shooting arm available to them.
Snake Tortoise wrote: Anybody use a twin lascannon and missile launcher brute? Only 120 points now, and if a suitably elite target wanders too close (or the units around it are shot off the board) you can hit them with four lascannons and two krak missiles for only 1CP. Worth throwing prescience on
i prefer the reaper autocannon, that said i think dakka brutes are reasonable, if there is a cheap chaos lord nearby sitting all the better.
With those single shot weapons, I don't see much viability unless you're Black Legion and have Abigail nearby. Loyalist Scum do it so much better because Ven Dreads don't need such a big babysitter.
Snake Tortoise wrote: Anybody use a twin lascannon and missile launcher brute? Only 120 points now, and if a suitably elite target wanders too close (or the units around it are shot off the board) you can hit them with four lascannons and two krak missiles for only 1CP. Worth throwing prescience on
i prefer the reaper autocannon, that said i think dakka brutes are reasonable, if there is a cheap chaos lord nearby sitting all the better.
With those single shot weapons, I don't see much viability unless you're Black Legion and have Abigail nearby. Loyalist Scum do it so much better because Ven Dreads don't need such a big babysitter.
Had a fun game with my friend. To be fair, we both didn't bring super hard lists. He brought a imperium soup list with lots of Catachan conscripts and dark angels while I brought a world eaters Rhino rush zerker list with a lord of skulls and an Ahriman to cast warp time.
He had so many bodies and scouts he restricted my lord of skulls movement alot, so warptime wasn't really that useful. But he didn't have much to deal with a superheavy like a Lord of skulls. So, he opted to play the mission and ignore the LOS totally.
He won based on mission objectives but my LOS got to shine and kill a big part of his army. The carnage was unbelievable. (squads of zerkers charging into big blobs of conscripts will do that). All I had left in the end was the Lord of Skulls which he coudn't kill. While he left one and a half squad of Mortars, an astropath and a company commander when he called it because there was no way I could come back on objectives with only one model to sit on objectives.
Highlight for me was when my Lord of Skulls blew up his Dark Talon with my gorestorm cannon and killed off all 6 of his dark knights with his Hades Cannon in one turn! I didn't expect my Lord of skulls to be able to survive to the end and wreck so much havoc. It only has a 5++ invul save. (compared to IK). : )
For shooting down swarms of tyranids, noise marines would be good. Or Chosen CSM with combi bolters too. Thats 4 shots at 24 inches based on the new bolter discipline if they didn't move. (Generally tyranids will want to come at you).
I am not sure about berserkers. The carnage would be wild, but Berserkers are fragile. They are only good for one charge and then they will likely die after that. So you have to bear that in mind.
He will also likely have some big high toughness monsters that need killing too. So, either you have to bring some high strength shooting weapons or you have to bring your own melee beat sticks like Daemon Princes to handle those.
The giant monsters that aren't Hive Tyrants won't have an Invul either, so you can usually make good use of the multi-damage weapons we have available.
I already have 20 possessed and I'm really looking forward to seeing what they get out of the box. Maybe WB might get a formation to take them as troops again. Sick of cultists.
Not sure what role that venomthing will fill. So what if summoning is easier? Looks cool though.
Sweet new oblits. I am in the middle of converting some aggressors to use at my FLGS limited tourneys, so I hope their profile and base size isn't too different. I'm not sure how they'll rule on them being set to old oblit size instead of centurion size.
I love the new models but until we know more there isnt a lot to say. I am hoping a new codex drops at the same time, that would be sweet. But that falls into wishful thinking and not tactics.
Got a doubles tournament coming up next week, i am teaming up with a tau player. Was thinking of using the following.
Abaddon
Sorcerer w/ mark of slaanesh, 5+++ power, warptime
40 cultists
40 cultists
20 marines w/ mark of slaanesh.
Idea is 80 cultists hang with abby and keep a huge bubble of nope up around the tau. Then i can send the 20 marines up, then warp time them again to get into position, and give them the 5+++. Turn 2 there should still be enough left that they will be effective at obj taking and putting preassure on the enemy (using let the galaxy burn for 1cp and giving them full rerolls to hit for maximum effectiveness). No real anti tank of course (other than vets of the long war strat) but there is 1000 pts of tau that will be coming as well that can cover that if need be.
Azuza001 wrote: I love the new models but until we know more there isnt a lot to say. I am hoping a new codex drops at the same time, that would be sweet. But that falls into wishful thinking and not tactics.
Got a doubles tournament coming up next week, i am teaming up with a tau player. Was thinking of using the following.
Abaddon
Sorcerer w/ mark of slaanesh, 5+++ power, warptime
40 cultists
40 cultists
20 marines w/ mark of slaanesh.
Idea is 80 cultists hang with abby and keep a huge bubble of nope up around the tau. Then i can send the 20 marines up, then warp time them again to get into position, and give them the 5+++. Turn 2 there should still be enough left that they will be effective at obj taking and putting preassure on the enemy (using let the galaxy burn for 1cp and giving them full rerolls to hit for maximum effectiveness). No real anti tank of course (other than vets of the long war strat) but there is 1000 pts of tau that will be coming as well that can cover that if need be.
Why 20 csm?
Wouldn't obliterators be more usefull?
Havocs with autocannons?
Granted i do see the point in it, but I feel like they cost you points that could be used more effectively elsewhere.
Has to be black legion for abaddon. And i need abaddon for moral ignore, cultists are a huge pain to remove with moral not an issue.
Finally for the bl chaos marines the strat let the galaxy burns gives full rerolls onlu to black legion chaos marines, any other option like havocs or oblits just get reroll 1's (which are not bad).
But i hear what you guys are saying. Things i need to think about. Thanks.
If you want to take a Heretac horde and Abaddon, LtGb feels like total redundancy. I mean, that kind of unit, you want it to stay within his fearless buff, which isn’t prevented at all by the Cultists’ need to keep someone within the Warmaster’s shouting range given how long a conga line they can make. So, it’s likely they’re *already* rerolling all hits.
I agree with others that it’s a suboptimal list, but it is characterful and I play Word Bearers so I get fluff first, efficiency second. I’ve tried a similar Heretac horde myself, buffed by a Dark Apostle, and it wasn’t *terrible*. Got some wins by being a wild card build people weren’t ready for.
The idea is abandon and the cultists will be in one location and the sorcerer and 20 marines in another. Ltgb gives them full rerolls without having to be chained to abby and moral isnt an issue because i can always pop the moral strat to autopass. Put mos on the marines with the sorcerer casting delightful agonies on them and warptime to make them more resistant and mobile then pop vets of the long war and endless con for fire twice. It should be able to do some work.
That was my thought process like i said you guys have given me some stuff to think about. I dont own oblits atm because the current model is trash and the new ones will be out in a month or so hopefully.
It's occurred to me, why would you ever give bikers a pistol rather than chainsword because if you fire the pistol you can't use your combi. Is that right?
Abaddon303 wrote: It's occurred to me, why would you ever give bikers a pistol rather than chainsword because if you fire the pistol you can't use your combi. Is that right?
I'm putting together a generic Chaos Space Marines army and I want to have Kharn in it. Would this be a good idea or not? If not, who else would make a good named character to include?
ArcaneHorror wrote: I'm putting together a generic Chaos Space Marines army and I want to have Kharn in it. Would this be a good idea or not? If not, who else would make a good named character to include?
Kharn's a good beatstick AND a good babysitter. Stick him next to something shooty and let it get full rerolls, then if something wants to charge it, charge him in and eat face.
He's one of the only models to offer a full reroll, but keep in mind the distance he has to be. Still cheap for babysitting Predators and Obliterators and maybe saving their asses.
Having played with obliterators in quite a few games and looking through the results of many top tournaments - are they actually as good as people seem to think? Maybe more of a gatekeeper unit for the price? Good no doubt, but are they actually competitive grade? 2 lists of chaos I think had oblits in the top 200 of LVO...
I understand the damage out - but every game they wind up "marked for death" etc. in tournament settings and they are ultimately a 4T unit with 3W per model... the 2+ even in cover doesn't hold up against heavy dakka (which is worth it) against a 200 point unit...
It's the defensive part that's the key issue. Players expect to drop them in and then they keep going. That's not how a 65 point model works. When running them, consider defensive buffs (aka Alpha Legion), and maybe MoT for being able to use The Changeling's 6+++ aura.
I’ve had some great success with my oblits when playing 2x30 pink horrors and a DP with WL Daemonspark for reroll 1s to wound.
When I have played them as Slaanesh with no support or reroll, I place them on top of a building or something then use endless stratagem to shoot twice. It’s slightly worse than my normal setup but if added a lord or Slaanesh DP for reroll it will be better.
They need too be focused kinda hard to kill if you have 2-3 units so normally for me it’s all the shooting my opponent have.
I’m building up for a Nurgle Daemonkin list that uses a Gnarlmaw to Advance Defilers on T1 to Warptime one. It’ll have Obliterators stood nearby, with +2 cover and fall back & shoot. Hopefully a GUO with the bell that can resuscitate one of them, or a Plague Drone, or a Blight Hauler. *Maybe* a Warpsmith, for extra infuriating healing.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: So far I wasn't very lucky with my oblits, too. They either ended up dead or in CC after 1 shooting phase.
GW hinted they'd get some new rules/ more firepower with the new kit. Let's see what that brings.
That being said they're not a bad unit now, you just have to be careful how to use them.
It's actually because of them being in melee I recommend sometimes going the Khorne route. After all, a Daemon HQ with the Crimson Crown helps out a lot in that regard and you can make them fight twice.
The latter part isn't a very serious suggestion, but Crimson Crown is.
2 defilers can hug a kharn and be very effective. Who wants to charge 2 defilers and Kharn? Same with a forgefiend or two. All depends on what your looking to have in your force.
The real issue is kharn works best as a babysitter and not as his intended roll of someone who just wants to murder everything in his path.
I feel that Obliterators suffer from only having 24 inch range. There is a good chance you have to deep strike them somewhere where they will get charged and die next turn if you want to be within range of your shooting target. In any case, though they have invul, its only 5+.
I would bring just one squad and use Cacophony strategem to get the most of of them the turn they come down. Other than that, bringing two or more squads seems to make it overkill. Are there that many juicy targets at 24 inch range when you come down? And they are more fragile than 9 oblits can be killed just as 3 can.
Don't forget that Imperial guard soup lists are very popular right now, and these have tons of infantry to provide screening and board control. You need to be able to clear our all those infantry screens but if you have 600 points or more worth of stuff waiting to deep strike down, then you will have less on the board to withstand fire and clear screens...
Eldenfirefly wrote: I feel that Obliterators suffer from only having 24 inch range. There is a good chance you have to deep strike them somewhere where they will get charged and die next turn if you want to be within range of your shooting target. In any case, though they have invul, its only 5+.
I would bring just one squad and use Cacophony strategem to get the most of of them the turn they come down. Other than that, bringing two or more squads seems to make it overkill. Are there that many juicy targets at 24 inch range when you come down? And they are more fragile than 9 oblits can be killed just as 3 can.
Don't forget that Imperial guard soup lists are very popular right now, and these have tons of infantry to provide screening and board control. You need to be able to clear our all those infantry screens but if you have 600 points or more worth of stuff waiting to deep strike down, then you will have less on the board to withstand fire and clear screens...
TBF: They had a lot more versatility in their earlier iterations. They were "THE SWISS ARMY KNIVE" TM (Also colloquially known as Heggel) to a good but very specific Termicide like unit imo.
And i feel a lot of the Veterans here, me included, wish for the old rules to be back, instead of this slotmachine routine that we have atm.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I feel that Obliterators suffer from only having 24 inch range. There is a good chance you have to deep strike them somewhere where they will get charged and die next turn if you want to be within range of your shooting target. In any case, though they have invul, its only 5+.
I would bring just one squad and use Cacophony strategem to get the most of of them the turn they come down. Other than that, bringing two or more squads seems to make it overkill. Are there that many juicy targets at 24 inch range when you come down? And they are more fragile than 9 oblits can be killed just as 3 can.
Don't forget that Imperial guard soup lists are very popular right now, and these have tons of infantry to provide screening and board control. You need to be able to clear our all those infantry screens but if you have 600 points or more worth of stuff waiting to deep strike down, then you will have less on the board to withstand fire and clear screens...
TBF: They had a lot more versatility in their earlier iterations. They were "THE SWISS ARMY KNIVE" TM (Also colloquially known as Heggel) to a good but very specific Termicide like unit imo.
And i feel a lot of the Veterans here, me included, wish for the old rules to be back, instead of this slotmachine routine that we have atm.
Guess I gotta reiterate.
People can complain about losing the multiple weapons all the want. The truth of the matter is that you would only ever use 2 or 3 of the weapons over the course of the game. They were paying like they could use all of them maybe at once, though. While randumb, the new profile is simply more functional.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I feel that Obliterators suffer from only having 24 inch range. There is a good chance you have to deep strike them somewhere where they will get charged and die next turn if you want to be within range of your shooting target. In any case, though they have invul, its only 5+.
I would bring just one squad and use Cacophony strategem to get the most of of them the turn they come down. Other than that, bringing two or more squads seems to make it overkill. Are there that many juicy targets at 24 inch range when you come down? And they are more fragile than 9 oblits can be killed just as 3 can.
Don't forget that Imperial guard soup lists are very popular right now, and these have tons of infantry to provide screening and board control. You need to be able to clear our all those infantry screens but if you have 600 points or more worth of stuff waiting to deep strike down, then you will have less on the board to withstand fire and clear screens...
TBF: They had a lot more versatility in their earlier iterations. They were "THE SWISS ARMY KNIVE" TM (Also colloquially known as Heggel) to a good but very specific Termicide like unit imo.
And i feel a lot of the Veterans here, me included, wish for the old rules to be back, instead of this slotmachine routine that we have atm.
Guess I gotta reiterate.
People can complain about losing the multiple weapons all the want. The truth of the matter is that you would only ever use 2 or 3 of the weapons over the course of the game. They were paying like they could use all of them maybe at once, though. While randumb, the new profile is simply more functional.
If that was true, then obliterators would've been way overpriced in past editions, which considering how often they were picked, seems a bit off no?
Eldenfirefly wrote: I feel that Obliterators suffer from only having 24 inch range. There is a good chance you have to deep strike them somewhere where they will get charged and die next turn if you want to be within range of your shooting target. In any case, though they have invul, its only 5+.
I would bring just one squad and use Cacophony strategem to get the most of of them the turn they come down. Other than that, bringing two or more squads seems to make it overkill. Are there that many juicy targets at 24 inch range when you come down? And they are more fragile than 9 oblits can be killed just as 3 can.
Don't forget that Imperial guard soup lists are very popular right now, and these have tons of infantry to provide screening and board control. You need to be able to clear our all those infantry screens but if you have 600 points or more worth of stuff waiting to deep strike down, then you will have less on the board to withstand fire and clear screens...
TBF: They had a lot more versatility in their earlier iterations. They were "THE SWISS ARMY KNIVE" TM (Also colloquially known as Heggel) to a good but very specific Termicide like unit imo.
And i feel a lot of the Veterans here, me included, wish for the old rules to be back, instead of this slotmachine routine that we have atm.
Guess I gotta reiterate.
People can complain about losing the multiple weapons all the want. The truth of the matter is that you would only ever use 2 or 3 of the weapons over the course of the game. They were paying like they could use all of them maybe at once, though. While randumb, the new profile is simply more functional.
If that was true, then obliterators would've been way overpriced in past editions, which considering how often they were picked, seems a bit off no?
They were actually overpriced, yes.
Tell me how many good units we had 4th edition on though hahaha! They were the best of a bad situation.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I feel that Obliterators suffer from only having 24 inch range. There is a good chance you have to deep strike them somewhere where they will get charged and die next turn if you want to be within range of your shooting target. In any case, though they have invul, its only 5+.
I would bring just one squad and use Cacophony strategem to get the most of of them the turn they come down. Other than that, bringing two or more squads seems to make it overkill. Are there that many juicy targets at 24 inch range when you come down? And they are more fragile than 9 oblits can be killed just as 3 can.
Don't forget that Imperial guard soup lists are very popular right now, and these have tons of infantry to provide screening and board control. You need to be able to clear our all those infantry screens but if you have 600 points or more worth of stuff waiting to deep strike down, then you will have less on the board to withstand fire and clear screens...
TBF: They had a lot more versatility in their earlier iterations. They were "THE SWISS ARMY KNIVE" TM (Also colloquially known as Heggel) to a good but very specific Termicide like unit imo.
And i feel a lot of the Veterans here, me included, wish for the old rules to be back, instead of this slotmachine routine that we have atm.
Guess I gotta reiterate.
People can complain about losing the multiple weapons all the want. The truth of the matter is that you would only ever use 2 or 3 of the weapons over the course of the game. They were paying like they could use all of them maybe at once, though. While randumb, the new profile is simply more functional.
If that was true, then obliterators would've been way overpriced in past editions, which considering how often they were picked, seems a bit off no?
They were actually overpriced, yes.
Tell me how many good units we had 4th edition on though hahaha! They were the best of a bad situation.
Dp with wings, then there was the whip of slaanesh power.
Rhinos. Helldrakes, there were some.
I need help with a rules question for a tournament I'm attending tomorrow. It regards Forgeworld models so if this isn't the right forum feel free to ignore this post.
I'm playing an alpha legion army in a 1250 point list, pretty basic, CSM, cultists and whatnot, however, I'm bringing A forgeworld Flyer. This unit has hard to hit. My question is, does this combine with the alpha legion tactic that gives units -1 to hit to models 12 away? If an enemy shoots this flyer and it's beyond 12 inches, do they get -2 to hit it?
irkahn wrote: I need help with a rules question for a tournament I'm attending tomorrow. It regards Forgeworld models so if this isn't the right forum feel free to ignore this post.
I'm playing an alpha legion army in a 1250 point list, pretty basic, CSM, cultists and whatnot, however, I'm bringing A forgeworld Flyer. This unit has hard to hit. My question is, does this combine with the alpha legion tactic that gives units -1 to hit to models 12 away? If an enemy shoots this flyer and it's beyond 12 inches, do they get -2 to hit it?
Isn't this a bit too strong?
Thank you!
No only infantry and hellbrutes profit from the trait.
irkahn wrote: I need help with a rules question for a tournament I'm attending tomorrow. It regards Forgeworld models so if this isn't the right forum feel free to ignore this post.
I'm playing an alpha legion army in a 1250 point list, pretty basic, CSM, cultists and whatnot, however, I'm bringing A forgeworld Flyer. This unit has hard to hit. My question is, does this combine with the alpha legion tactic that gives units -1 to hit to models 12 away? If an enemy shoots this flyer and it's beyond 12 inches, do they get -2 to hit it?
Isn't this a bit too strong?
Thank you!
No only infantry and hellbrutes profit from the trait.
And Daemon Princes and Bikers but ultimately correct, the flyer will not get the AL - to be shot.
You can mark it Nurgle and cast miasma on it, though!
irkahn wrote: I need help with a rules question for a tournament I'm attending tomorrow. It regards Forgeworld models so if this isn't the right forum feel free to ignore this post.
I'm playing an alpha legion army in a 1250 point list, pretty basic, CSM, cultists and whatnot, however, I'm bringing A forgeworld Flyer. This unit has hard to hit. My question is, does this combine with the alpha legion tactic that gives units -1 to hit to models 12 away? If an enemy shoots this flyer and it's beyond 12 inches, do they get -2 to hit it?
Isn't this a bit too strong?
Thank you!
No only infantry and hellbrutes profit from the trait.
And Daemon Princes and Bikers but ultimately correct, the flyer will not get the AL - to be shot.
You can mark it Nurgle and cast miasma on it, though!
Actually forgot them.
as for beeing to strong, alaitoc can do it, so no it would not be to strong.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I feel that Obliterators suffer from only having 24 inch range. There is a good chance you have to deep strike them somewhere where they will get charged and die next turn if you want to be within range of your shooting target. In any case, though they have invul, its only 5+.
I would bring just one squad and use Cacophony strategem to get the most of of them the turn they come down. Other than that, bringing two or more squads seems to make it overkill. Are there that many juicy targets at 24 inch range when you come down? And they are more fragile than 9 oblits can be killed just as 3 can.
Don't forget that Imperial guard soup lists are very popular right now, and these have tons of infantry to provide screening and board control. You need to be able to clear our all those infantry screens but if you have 600 points or more worth of stuff waiting to deep strike down, then you will have less on the board to withstand fire and clear screens...
I don't find them to be that great either, but AT in general is kinda harsh for the dex. Oblits are better if you are throwing blobs and screens at someone at the very least, if that's your gameplan you can SORT OF get a bit more mileage out of them, even then I think they just have too many ways to fail, and other than that they kind of suck imo.
After some nice advice awhile back from a user here I started using a Chaos Lord with Blade of the Hydra, Flames of Spite as his Warlord Trait and MOK against my friend who plays Tau, and he's consistently performed very well. I was wondering however, if there was any reason not to give him a second chain sword just to get that extra attack? At minimum it's 6 attacks attacks on the charge, with any roll of 6 to wound ensuring a moral wound.
blood reaper wrote: After some nice advice awhile back from a user here I started using a Chaos Lord with Blade of the Hydra, Flames of Spite as his Warlord Trait and MOK against my friend who plays Tau, and he's consistently performed very well. I was wondering however, if there was any reason not to give him a second chain sword just to get that extra attack? At minimum it's 6 attacks attacks on the charge, with any roll of 6 to wound ensuring a moral wound.
Sure, but you lose out on i am alpharius which is a rather handy tool at denial of slay the warlord missions. (Also you have a 1/6 chance of it on top of alpharius)
So I was thinking of using the AOS Korghos Khul model as a Khorne Berzerker Champion. Looking through the CSM Champion Equipment list with the newer errata, I see that it would possible for me to take a chainaxe and a combi-flamer as weapons. Korghos' axe I think looks spikey enough to be a chainaxe, and for the flamer, I was thinking of his Flesh Hound taking that role, as Gorehounds can unleash a burning breath. Do you think that this would be accepted in casual and/or tournament games? The model is so awesome that I really don't want to have to convert it much if at all.
blood reaper wrote: After some nice advice awhile back from a user here I started using a Chaos Lord with Blade of the Hydra, Flames of Spite as his Warlord Trait and MOK against my friend who plays Tau, and he's consistently performed very well. I was wondering however, if there was any reason not to give him a second chain sword just to get that extra attack? At minimum it's 6 attacks attacks on the charge, with any roll of 6 to wound ensuring a moral wound.
If he's otherwise only armed with a bolt pistol, I can't see why you wouldn't want to give him the second chainsword, although that one extra attack wouldn't benefit from the strength/AP of the relic, it's still an extra dice to try and get that 6 as you mention. The only reason I can think you wouldn't want to give it to him is if you also normally use him to roll with a combi-melta or plasma for his 2+ BS.
ArcaneHorror wrote: So I was thinking of using the AOS Korghos Khul model as a Khorne Berzerker Champion. Looking through the CSM Champion Equipment list with the newer errata, I see that it would possible for me to take a chainaxe and a combi-flamer as weapons. Korghos' axe I think looks spikey enough to be a chainaxe, and for the flamer, I was thinking of his Flesh Hound taking that role, as Gorehounds can unleash a burning breath. Do you think that this would be accepted in casual and/or tournament games? The model is so awesome that I really don't want to have to convert it much if at all.
It’s a fantastic model, the footprint will be a tight squeeze for what comes as standard on a 32mm base but not impossible. Gorehound breath is a fair rule of cool, might be an idea to add a boltgun somewhere for the WYSIWYG purists. I’d pay the pocket change points to make it a power axe, with 6A the extra AP is worth it and it’s a lot more WYSIWYG.
ArcaneHorror wrote: So I was thinking of using the AOS Korghos Khul model as a Khorne Berzerker Champion. Looking through the CSM Champion Equipment list with the newer errata, I see that it would possible for me to take a chainaxe and a combi-flamer as weapons. Korghos' axe I think looks spikey enough to be a chainaxe, and for the flamer, I was thinking of his Flesh Hound taking that role, as Gorehounds can unleash a burning breath. Do you think that this would be accepted in casual and/or tournament games? The model is so awesome that I really don't want to have to convert it much if at all.
It’s a fantastic model, the footprint will be a tight squeeze for what comes as standard on a 32mm base but not impossible. Gorehound breath is a fair rule of cool, might be an idea to add a boltgun somewhere for the WYSIWYG purists. I’d pay the pocket change points to make it a power axe, with 6A the extra AP is worth it and it’s a lot more WYSIWYG.
I didn't know that the power axe was so good. thanks for telling me. As for the boltgun, I was thinking maybe I could have one hanging on the back with an arm attached. The arm could be cut down and the stump could be red to signify blood to show that it's a trophy from a kill. I really want to keep the primitive look of the model with minimal technology, so I think the trophy could be a good compromise between keeping that look while still showing that it's in 40K. As to the base, isn't it alright for bases to be larger than the standard one that comes with a model, just not smaller?
Also what you took was a battalion not a brigade.
