Plague marines in a rhino would be good for holding down your second objective.
This makes me wonder what will happen when the DG codex is released and plague marines get 2w. Will PMs in a CSM army still be on 1 wound? That would be weird. But equally weird would be PMs being 2w and regular CSM being 1w in the same army...
I just listened to a podcast where the guy that runs Almostprogaming on YouTube talked to the highest ranked Chaos player in North America. He is consistently winning with a list that's using mixed Daemons and Thousand Sons.
Reivax26 wrote: I just listened to a podcast where the guy that runs Almostprogaming on YouTube talked to the highest ranked Chaos player in North America. He is consistently winning with a list that's using mixed Daemons and Thousand Sons.
Dunno if that's because of the strength of his list or a limited opposition pool. A lot of people are not playing right now because of the Coof.
Don't treat this as a prediction of a future GW release - but I heard a rumor the 9th edition Codex will come alongside the release of another Daemon engine. It got me thinking about the faction overall and how inadequate it's been for several editions.
5th was Daemon Princes and Berzerker Rush, 6th and 7th were a wash, 8th was mostly hyper-powerful HQ soup lists compensating for the lack of good troops options.
Feels like GW is trying to change that with 2W CSMs, which I welcome. But I'm wondering when GW will get around to actually improving the faction as a whole, making every unit playable, figuring out a way to keep our units from being overpriced compared to their loyalist counterparts.
Have not played 9th ed Chaos and won't until I see the Codex. It's just hard for me to envision what a competitive army would look like. I don't see the reason for getting a new one together only to have to change it in a few months.
I'm not too unhappy about our units being weaker than loyalist if they then balance that by giving us really strong psychics and daemon bonus type doctrines.
I'd love it if we could upgrade units with a mark to give them specialisms like the DW codex. Make being chaos actually meaningful so we might be stuck without the fancy new marine toys and primaris but we can improve units like predators and rhinos with hell forgedbuffs or something
Even if I disagree with what way they go, I really hope the choose a direction. Seems they haven't really had a clear concept in mind for many editions now.
Eldarain wrote: Even if I disagree with what way they go, I really hope the choose a direction. Seems they haven't really had a clear concept in mind for many editions now.
I think chaos keeps getting caught between two or three competing visions of "what it should be", and is being pulled pillar to post between these. Some people effectively want "loyalist with spikes on", others want a army "Long War" army that effectively time-warped form the Siege of Terra and is loaded with Heresy technology, while a different bunch want a army loaded with deamon-tech. Some want a "Chaos Marines" army that is heavily mixed with other Chaos elements like daemons, cultists, etc, while others want a "pure" marine force. And thats before elements like the Tsons, Death Guard and Demons are expanded form elements of the CSM army into stand-alone forces, removing options out of the "base" CSM line.
in short, it has to be a nightmare to balance all these conflicting ideas of "what CSM are" and come up with a roughly balanced codex. the loyalist marines seem to have solved this tension between the different identities of the sub-factions by spinning most of them off into stand alone forces (Ie, Space Wolves, Blood/Dark Angels, etc). short of doing something similar for all 9 Traitor Legions (which i can't see happening), this slightly confused identity is going to remain in the CSM army.
We know DG are staying standalone. I could see the 4 God aligned Legions getting that treatment. I'd like the other 5 to be shifted to the Supplement approach. More than likely my Word Bearers will remain morale rerolling trash in book though.
So, what is the general opinion of the current chaos Start Collecting box? It seems like the MoP and Obliterators are good. The CSM troops are a matter of preference, but are poorly equipped since the squad is half guns and half swords. I haven't heard much about the Venomcrawler or the Greater Possessed.
I think it has potential! Especially with some light converting. I think if I were trying to get into CSM right now that two Start Collecting boxes (and a few additions) might be the way to go. A little bit of cutting and gluing could get you a pair of 5-man objective sitting CSM squads with a rotor cannon each (clip and swap the business end of the autocannon and the rotor cannon from the Oblit) and a pack of chain axes could turn those melee troops into some Khorne Berzerkers.
Converting one of the MoPs into a Sorcerer for variety and picking up a Lord Discordant would give a decent selection of HQs. Adding in a bunch of Cultists and you could have some variety in your troops. I'm not really sure what to do with the Greater Possessed. Maybe keep a couple to do their job and cut up the others for conversions? 2x Venomcrawlers and the Lord Discordant seem like a decent team up, but I haven't seen anyone running that.
Anyone else put thought into the best way to use the current discount box? If you were starting CSMs today, how would you go about it?
Groslon wrote: So, what is the general opinion of the current chaos Start Collecting box? It seems like the MoP and Obliterators are good. The CSM troops are a matter of preference, but are poorly equipped since the squad is half guns and half swords. I haven't heard much about the Venomcrawler or the Greater Possessed.
I think it has potential! Especially with some light converting. I think if I were trying to get into CSM right now that two Start Collecting boxes (and a few additions) might be the way to go. A little bit of cutting and gluing could get you a pair of 5-man objective sitting CSM squads with a rotor cannon each (clip and swap the business end of the autocannon and the rotor cannon from the Oblit) and a pack of chain axes could turn those melee troops into some Khorne Berzerkers.
Converting one of the MoPs into a Sorcerer for variety and picking up a Lord Discordant would give a decent selection of HQs. Adding in a bunch of Cultists and you could have some variety in your troops. I'm not really sure what to do with the Greater Possessed. Maybe keep a couple to do their job and cut up the others for conversions? 2x Venomcrawlers and the Lord Discordant seem like a decent team up, but I haven't seen anyone running that.
Anyone else put thought into the best way to use the current discount box? If you were starting CSMs today, how would you go about it?
With the -1 on swords now I'm finding them more useful than bolters. I charge a lot more with my CSM now in order to capture objectives so the melee equipped marines are fine in the box. The autocannon is okay too. Maybe stick a combi melta on the champ and a melta on another for a squad with 3 chainswords and 2 melta?
Greater possessed are fine but I don't know why you'd need 2 of them let alone 4. You could convert one into some really messed up lord and done of their bits are cool (backpacks are nice for conversions) but if you buy 2 SC boxes I'd be inclined to chuck 3 greater possessed and an obliterator on eBay you'll probably get at least £20 back and you're on your way to buying a box of havocs or something?
Venomcrawlers are decent and if the possible 3+ ws/bs transpires they will be even better as they are an explosion risk that at the moment you need to keep near your lord discordant to keep viable. With 3+ and assault weapons you can just throw them at your opponent as quickly as possible in a divider run...
Tiberius501 wrote: Are havocs worth using? And if so, are they viable kitted out to kill elite units, or are they best taken for anti-tank?
havocs are atm a great unit, bit brittle but with support they do alot of things very good.
reaper chaincannons and a bolter, combined with movement tricks or deepstriking via drill and watch the fireworks , especially with Votwl and Cacophony.
Classical Lascannons , well move out of cover and fire unimpeded is really nice for a finishing blow.
Autocannons were really decent last edition for what you paid for a squad of them, with the new HB that maybee now a better anti everything option.
Tiberius501 wrote: Are havocs worth using? And if so, are they viable kitted out to kill elite units, or are they best taken for anti-tank?
I play black legion and take 4 lascannon havocs every game. Being able to hide them in a rhino or out of sight at deployment, walk them out 6" next to Abaddon to get a target and then drop 3CP (vets & endless cacophony) on them to pretty much guarantee you're gonna force through at least 6 lascannons for your opponent to save turn one is very nice on a 145pt unit.
I find that alpha strike gives you potential to destroy or at least cripple maybe a couple of important tanks/transports/flyers first turn. Turn two Abaddon tends to leave them behind and my buffs tend to move on to something else. They are a little brittle but T5 makes them sturdier than most and their range and cover keeps them safer than you might expect.
It's weird i tend to find that after their explosive start opponents might focus them down. If they do I'm okay with that as they are no longer my primary focus and they divert firepower away from my next setup. If they don't get focussed and survive a few turns they can just steadily take pop shots for the rest of the game. The damage output might fall off without the buffs but they still do steady work and I figure anything else i get from that unit is a bonus because they invariably made their cost back turn one. They will be even better with 2W...
Abaddon303 wrote: I play black legion and take 4 lascannon havocs every game. Being able to hide them in a rhino or out of sight at deployment, walk them out 6" next to Abaddon to get a target and then drop 3CP (vets & endless cacophony) on them to pretty much guarantee you're gonna force through at least 6 lascannons for your opponent to save turn one is very nice on a 145pt unit.
I find that alpha strike gives you potential to destroy or at least cripple maybe a couple of important tanks/transports/flyers first turn. Turn two Abaddon tends to leave them behind and my buffs tend to move on to something else. They are a little brittle but T5 makes them sturdier than most and their range and cover keeps them safer than you might expect.
It's weird i tend to find that after their explosive start opponents might focus them down. If they do I'm okay with that as they are no longer my primary focus and they divert firepower away from my next setup. If they don't get focussed and survive a few turns they can just steadily take pop shots for the rest of the game. The damage output might fall off without the buffs but they still do steady work and I figure anything else i get from that unit is a bonus because they invariably made their cost back turn one. They will be even better with 2W...
I was running 23+ lascannons with Abaddon most games of 8th. Did really well until Orks / Dark Eldar / Imperial Knights came along.
From what I can tell, horde clearing is more important than anti-tank in 9th edition. Thinking I will be running chaincannon Havocs in the near future.
Thanks for the replies.
I’m torn between which way to go with them. It seems fun using them as anti-horde/more all rounder, but at the same time they seem really handy to equip for anti-tank.
I’ll have to think on this.
Abaddon303 wrote: I'm not too unhappy about our units being weaker than loyalist if they then balance that by giving us really strong psychics and daemon bonus type doctrines.
I'd love it if we could upgrade units with a mark to give them specialisms like the DW codex. Make being chaos actually meaningful so we might be stuck without the fancy new marine toys and primaris but we can improve units like predators and rhinos with hell forgedbuffs or something
I honestly have a big issue with CSM units being somehow inherently weaker than loyalist. Since when was this perception ever a cannon thing in lore? CSM turned to the dark gods for power. It seemed ridiculous that are turning to the dark gods, they got weaker instead ...
If anything. Since the imperium is in a technological rut (totally stagnant). Chaos should have more advanced weaponary since they have no qalms with combining warp, magic, forbidden tech and what not into their weapnory. And inherently, CSM units should be stronger state wise because thousands of years in the warp, chaos mutations, dark gods favours, etc etc.
There may be slightly better organisation on the loyalist side, but thats about it. In fact, I would even argue this point. Fear that a powerful chaos lord will lop off your head is a much better motivation for obedience that what a loyalist punishment of what "recite this one thousand times" or "seek penance from your chaplain" is likely to be... So a battalion under a feared chaos lord is pretty obedient to his orders ... if they want to keep their heads...
Tiberius501 wrote: Thanks for the replies.
I’m torn between which way to go with them. It seems fun using them as anti-horde/more all rounder, but at the same time they seem really handy to equip for anti-tank.
I’ll have to think on this.
Heavy Support slots are in pretty high demand right now but I am taking a unit with lascannons and a unit with chaincannons. The lascannons start on the board and will usually EC + VotLW something on turn 1 while the chaincannons start in Strategic Reserves and are used mostly to clear infantry units off/near objectives.
From WarCom today. It's DG but it looks promising for whenever CSM get updated.
Possessed going to 4 attacks each is pretty interesting and Daemon Engines finally becoming 3+ WS/BS is great news. Obviously we will need to wait for points before making any conclusions but this is a good sign.
Now that chainswords are at AP-1, is it still a big deal to replace berzerkers' pistols with chainaxes? I know that the axes add one to the strength of their attack, and that berzerkers should maximize their melee potential, but I'm not sure if I'm up to the tedious task of cutting off all of the pistols on my melee CSM in order to add axes.
Yeah, in some cases, the bolt pistol loadout now actually outperforms the Chainaxe one. If you’re fighting a pure MEQ army, the extra shots will do something and the S6 is wasted. You can pretty much pick them based on aesthetics/what you already have built atm.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 4A possessed with the WB strat is going to be nuts. That’s 5xD2 attacks on the charge. Ten, if you throw 3CP at a Khornate unit. Or take a Gnarlmaw or Slaaneshi Daemons detachment and get a very good odds on a T1 charge. A Lord with ashen axe, jump pack, and possession WT has a solid chance of joining them and making the enemy stay for a further beating.
It’s coming with the DG book which is the next book. So yes it’ll be changed in their book but not the vanilla chaos book, which is sort of funny to me.
Probably too much to expect the other 5 to get the supplement treatment. I'm just hoping for an elevation out of meme tier traits and removing the restrictions on what it applies to.
I just threw some numbers around and concluded that, whilst HA and firstborn buffs are giving Power Fists efficient targets, an unbuffed Berzerker champion lightning claw attack outperforms the same with a power fist by 40% against Dreadnoughts
lindsay40k wrote: I just threw some numbers around and concluded that, whilst HA and firstborn buffs are giving Power Fists efficient targets, an unbuffed Berzerker champion lightning claw attack outperforms the same with a power fist by 40% against Dreadnoughts
Far as I can tell the fist is still the better tank busting model though. They can throw out disgusting damage against t8 like repulsors and knights.
Oh, yeah, absent of everything, fist is by far the better weapon
If a squad of zerks is riding with a character who can easily punch out a tank, twin claws appear to at least be a viable loadout for the champ, and a potential insurance against a dread-heavy meta shift
Eldenfirefly wrote: Correct. Death Guard is likely to be adjusted so that it can play perfectly fine as a standalone army without having to mix in the CSM codex.
Need to see the points, but this army appears to be fine playing stand alone.
Inexorable Advance now lets them move and fire heavy weapons without penalties. Vehicles can shoot at units in engagement range without penalty. Infantry are not slowed by anything.
I got to see the new PBC stats, it now has better BS and they took away all variable damage from its guns. It's better in all the ways that matter.
Rumor is Disgustingly Resilient now gives you -1 to W instead of needing to roll a 5 to ignore wounds. Anything that used to wound on a 4+ now needs to roll 5+, which is a 33% improvement (same as before.)
I'd love to return but the fact they made that insane fandex for the Loyalists at the same time as the (non)updates to the Legions in 8th doesn't give me great hope for anything approaching the same treatment.
Just a little theory crafting, if you mix up emperors children with thousand sons, you get to use doubleshot stratagem twice a turn. Some army that came to my mind:
Batalion emperors children
Dark apostole with warpsight plea
Dark apostole with relic that let you reroll all the wounds
Daemon prince of slanesh wings talons and some other goods
2x dark disciples
20x nosie marines with sonic blasters
4x 10 cultists
10 terminators combi plasma and power fist
Patrol of thousand sons cult of knowledge
Ahriman on disc of tzeentch
Prescience, death hex, warp time
20 rubrics with inferno boltguns
Its only gonna be good if you take a first turn,
You risen rubricae rubrics forward in order to get in range,
Move advance and warptime ahriman close to them.
You move up your noise marines with apostoles.
Doubletapping rubrics generate 76 shots, -2 ap, d1, hiting on 2+, rerolling ones, cult of knowledge let you reroll wound rolls against one of targets aswell.
Now noise marines At their slaneesh doubletap generate 120 s5 d2 shots, hiting on 2+ with full reroll.
That is like 200 shots that will most likely hit, and have a high chance of wounding your targets, and you have a deathhex to cancel one of units invaruable save aswell.
Turn 2, you deepstrike terminators and try to warptime or just move and advance your daemon prince close to them.
We are looking at 20 plasma shots+ doubletap generate 20 more if you didnt loose any models thanks to rerolls from prince.
On top of that you have almost guaranteed charge with stratagem that let you swap one dice for 6 in charge roll.
If you need to, pop off the stratagem that generate more atacks for every model slain, those atacks can generate more atacks, so in a single fight phase you can wipe out whole boyz squad.
I know its fragile, but if you manage to pull this off, you can table your opponent at the top of your turn 2.
Its probably still better to play some alpha legion shenigans, that prevent your key units to be taken down turn 1 but, its just crazy how much damage output this army can pull off, and once chaos marines will get 2 wounds we can really start thinking aboute getting them into competetive enviroment
The latest point is only true if the pricehike for the wound won't be severe.
Remember there's no saying that we will get the blanked rulepile like loyalists did.
Also, call me wierd but how much CP does that eat?
Risen rubricae 1, TS doubleshot 1, slaneesh doubleshot 2, slanesh noise marine weapon boost 1, boosting charge range 1 and eventuall exploding hits on terminators another 1.
That makes total of 7 cp, 9 for doubleshooting termies, and 10 if rubrics will survive for another round of doubleshooting, if not then you try to use votlw when its most Effective.
Reivax26 wrote: Has anyone here ran Blood Slaughterers with a Lord Discordant? I am seriously thinking about getting some of them since his buff affects them.
I had one game against eldar starcannon spam where i ran a disco + 1 blood slaughterer (pre Imperial armor).
The disco never got to buff the slaughterer because i had to suicide the disco turn 1 with warptime to try and get rid of some of their firepower.
The Slaughterer still kicked ass. Its an absolute beast and now that its cheaper, it gets even better.
I'm actually painting it up right now since i wanted to see if he was worthy of getting paint on it.
I've been impressed with what we've been shown of the Death Guard book so far. Gives me hope ( I know, I know) that they might put some proper effort in for our book.
However I'm having a hard time envisioning what that looks like.
It could work with a Supplement system like the Loyalists get but I doubt we get that.
I just don't see what overarching 9th systems they can design that can be pulled in so many different directions and give them all a satisfactory 9th level experience.
There will be 7 Legions and half a dozen Renegades to make fit.
I don't see them dropping WE and EC even if new books for them are planned for 9th so it just seems like a crazy amount of varying playstyles and background to make work under one book.
I guess best case maybe we get a more expensive larger book like the Loyalists core book to make it more feasible. They're welcome to drop some of the Copy/Paste lore entries if it were up to me.
Anyway. Long ramble but what approach do you see them taking?
Eldarain wrote: I've been impressed with what we've been shown of the Death Guard book so far. Gives me hope ( I know, I know) that they might put some proper effort in for our book.
However I'm having a hard time envisioning what that looks like.
It could work with a Supplement system like the Loyalists get but I doubt we get that.
I just don't see what overarching 9th systems they can design that can be pulled in so many different directions and give them all a satisfactory 9th level experience.
There will be 7 Legions and half a dozen Renegades to make fit.
I don't see them dropping WE and EC even if new books for them are planned for 9th so it just seems like a crazy amount of varying playstyles and background to make work under one book.
I guess best case maybe we get a more expensive larger book like the Loyalists core book to make it more feasible. They're welcome to drop some of the Copy/Paste lore entries if it were up to me.
Anyway. Long ramble but what approach do you see them taking?
Supplements, because that = more $$$, and that's something gw never passes up.
Supplements, because that = more $$$, and that's something gw never passes up.
I'd be fine with that as there is far too much variation between the Legions approach to war/worship. No idea what unifying Doctrine equivalent would make sense across them all.
Supplements, because that = more $$$, and that's something gw never passes up.
I'd be fine with that as there is far too much variation between the Legions approach to war/worship. No idea what unifying Doctrine equivalent would make sense across them all.
Me too, because with their current methods of writing rules, I don't see how they could properly handle a Legion that worships nothing in the same book as the others. They just don't do proper customization right anymore.
Not Online!!! wrote: Correction don't want to because i rekon the printed in china stuff has a higher profit margin then plastic.
Oh, I didn't say they couldn't do a customizable ruleset anymore, just that they don't. They did it excellently as recently as 7th with the R&H list in IA13, but they don't do that anymore, for the reasons you mention. Like I said: Supplements = $$$$.
The extra AP on a power axe is better against everything except T8 and even that's marginal. You're even better with the -2AP than wounding T4 on 2s.
Plus axes are way cooler than clubs...
Recently falling in love with World eaters again. Because win or lose, they don't care as long as the blood flows.
But serious question, how do you handle armies that throw small speed bumps in front of your berserkers and then use the time gained to shoot you off the board?
One squad of infantry is super cheap, and Admech has this fast attack unit that can literally use a strategem to fall back 12 inches so you are pretty much gauranteed to fail your charge.
I get stalled off the board, and then tabled by turn 4. lol What are the tricks and strategies you use as world eaters against shooty armies that use speed bumps to stall you?
seems to me that you need to pull an angron and punish some berzerkers into the backline to be AC Havocs? (Atm the heavy bolters are better but AC's are more "fluffcorrect") a shooting component to dent some speedbumps is of decent urgency, because if they can stop you with speedbumps that efficently then you seem to lack firepower.
Other then that, a squad of drop in red butchers to clear some screens? It's also forward pressure and S6 chainaxes with combibolters are decently cheap
Bikers, and to a degree raptors can also be a really viable tool for you in these cases if only add a bit more clearing power and more pressure.
DP with wings? Jump lord? If jumplord an Berzerker glaive or gorefather might be a good investment, a guard of a bunch of warp talons or Raptors might help out.
In any case, a separate Assault leader with violent urgency trait from F&F is really really important, be it an exalted champion to tie together 1-3 squads of Berzerkers.
Survivability wise, the Darkapostel with ilussion prayer would come in pretty handy.
Personally, WE allways seemed to me to require to be played to the utmost momentum, loose it and you are done for, maintain it and you pretty much roll over everything, that means that going forwards as fast as possible is kinda a necessity. Apoplegtic Frenzy will probably be one of the most used stratagems , even before votwl and anything else.
Yeah, Havocs getting to shoot Reaper Chaincannons on the hoof means a cannon fodder heavy meta shouldn’t be a massive concern. VotLW if you really need to sweep the centre ground. If it’s two units that can’t fly, your opponent’s just gifting you an opportunity to tripoint two of them. VU Raptors are also handy.
So exactly how important is obsec in a chaos space marine army? I feel like 2d weapons like auto cannons and overcharged plasma is about to take a front seat and our obsec units seem like mediocre equivalents in other armies. Chosen, terminators and havocs at least look like a lot of fun and I was wondering if that works, and what sort of support you need like transports. Chosen especially have a special place in my heart because between combi bolters, plasma, and everything else in their tool belt if you got the points they can kill it. 1w tac squads just seem too squishy to use for obsec and with the new edition and point costs I don’t even know how to feel about cultists but I feel like they give you the best obsec for your buck by being cheap, unremarkable and hardly worth shooting XD
Quick question about the new points costs. Terminators now get free power weapons, power mauls etc. Have they mucked up or is that intentional? Seems pretty handy getting stuff for nothing!
Rogerio134134 wrote: Quick question about the new points costs. Terminators now get free power weapons, power mauls etc. Have they mucked up or is that intentional? Seems pretty handy getting stuff for nothing!
There's a few funny things going on with Terminators right now.
RAW, Deathwatch Kill Teams get 5+ invul just for including a Terminator in the unit.
RAW, Reaper Autocannons are free, because they are not listed with a points cost. Reaper Chaincannons are, which is not a weapons option for Terminators. And there's no cost for power weapons.
Not sure about GW's intent, it's a new edition. For right now, would go by RAW and assume things may change.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Quick question about the new points costs. Terminators now get free power weapons, power mauls etc. Have they mucked up or is that intentional? Seems pretty handy getting stuff for nothing!
It’s the options format used in 9ed Codices and almost certainly intentional. ‘Standard’ loadouts no longer require adding up, and rounding up or down to the nearest five is given much more weight relative to to the old micro balancing of axes and swords. Sad news for people who converted Chainaxes en masse to keep their gunners cheap, just count them as power axes I guess. Fantastic news for twin LC red butchers, with the 5” charge thing they will become a gatekeeper unit for learning the importance of effective orientations to buildings
Question: has anyone tried playing 9th using 2 wound CSMs? If so, any thoughts?
Friend of mine from Texas said this is a thing, he's been to a few stores where that's the house rule.
We found it to be somewhat "meh". We didn't bother with adjusting the points, so we just took them at the current points level and gave them 2 wounds. Helped a bit against things like the bomb dropping Archeopter as it was no longer wiping out half a unit on good rolls, but I still think they're going to end up almost worse for it (due to the price increase) unless they also get easy access to some kind of damage mitigation tool (like a chaos version of Transhuman, or a -1 to a min. of 1 type of deal).
I would almost rather they have kept the 1w and gone to T5. IDK what the math says, but that at least feels better. Most of the time, the 2 wounds didn't really keep them around that much longer, so much as it made it so that there was less "overkill" when they were eventually wiped.
The exception was my Iron Warriors list that has 4 squads of 5 marines each backing a ton of aggressive monsters (Leviathan dread, mauler fiends, Disco Lords, Venom Crawler, etc). There's a lot of big stuff moving forward that eats shots while the marines skulk in behind them to get objectives. They performed slightly better in this list. Also helps that I ended up using the IW 6+ FnP strat almost every turn of every game. There, the 2w made a difference. In armies without this though? Meh ...
There’s a rules FAQ that’s confirmed that if you teleport onto the roof of a 10” tall building, and there’s an enemy on the ground floor, you only need to make a 5” charge in order to get within engagement range
Question: has anyone tried playing 9th using 2 wound CSMs? If so, any thoughts?
Friend of mine from Texas said this is a thing, he's been to a few stores where that's the house rule.
We found it to be somewhat "meh". We didn't bother with adjusting the points, so we just took them at the current points level and gave them 2 wounds. Helped a bit against things like the bomb dropping Archeopter as it was no longer wiping out half a unit on good rolls, but I still think they're going to end up almost worse for it (due to the price increase) unless they also get easy access to some kind of damage mitigation tool (like a chaos version of Transhuman, or a -1 to a min. of 1 type of deal).
I would almost rather they have kept the 1w and gone to T5. IDK what the math says, but that at least feels better. Most of the time, the 2 wounds didn't really keep them around that much longer, so much as it made it so that there was less "overkill" when they were eventually wiped.
The exception was my Iron Warriors list that has 4 squads of 5 marines each backing a ton of aggressive monsters (Leviathan dread, mauler fiends, Disco Lords, Venom Crawler, etc). There's a lot of big stuff moving forward that eats shots while the marines skulk in behind them to get objectives. They performed slightly better in this list. Also helps that I ended up using the IW 6+ FnP strat almost every turn of every game. There, the 2w made a difference. In armies without this though? Meh ...
Thanks for the heads up. That's about the same as I've heard from others, let's see if anyone else chimes in.
Based on what we've seen so far in the 9th edition codices, is it likely that elites like berzerkers and Plague Marines will get the Core keyword? I'm building a CSM that is going to be heavy on PM.
Blood Angels have Death Company as Core. So maybe. I don't know. I left 8th from Loyalist Fandex favouritism so our book not being laughably gak next to theirs is what I'm waiting for before any idea of buying back in.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am very hopeful for CSM codex after seeing what GW did with Deathguard!
Yeaaahh partially.
The equipment option culling imo is unaceptable, it never was and the artificially implemented 1:1 ratio for specific units is artifically implemented and shows that GW capitulated to actually understand as to why the core rules influence heavy and light infantry .
Other than that, yeah it seems like a solid book with great options, but watch the new CSM dex beeing BL and renegades once again..
I do hope though that we will see a custom trait table ..
Why would you ever use a single claw ? Its S4. The champ gets a power fist, and a combi gun (plasma or melta), one model (in a 5 model unit) gets another combi plasma or melta, and power axes/combi bolter for the rest. In a ten model unit two more models will get combi melta or plasma.
p5freak wrote: Why would you ever use a single claw ? Its S4. The champ gets a power fist, and a combi gun (plasma or melta), one model (in a 5 model unit) gets another combi plasma or melta, and power axes/combi bolter for the rest. In a ten model unit two more models will get combi melta or plasma.
Single claws are a fine choice, +1 attack per claw now so they generally outperform the other power weapons except in real niche situations, and you get the most attacks per turn per model from shooting the bolter and fighting with a single claw (also at the lowest price per model).
Single claws also work well in chosen when rocking special weapons, or as a back up on a chaos lord with a daemon weapon (expecially a red butcher world eater termy lord).
So just a quick weird question. Has anyone ever fielded or played against Noise marines who were not all (maybe except champ) equipped with sonic blasters and/or a blastmaster? The original all metal models could only take noise weapons. The mix plastic/metal box changed it and then the codex allowed for them to be equipped as basically CSM marines. But why pay a premium to field what is basically a CSM marine? Why not just make the sonic blaster default? Anyway random thought.
xeen wrote: So just a quick weird question. Has anyone ever fielded or played against Noise marines who were not all (maybe except champ) equipped with sonic blasters and/or a blastmaster? The original all metal models could only take noise weapons. The mix plastic/metal box changed it and then the codex allowed for them to be equipped as basically CSM marines. But why pay a premium to field what is basically a CSM marine? Why not just make the sonic blaster default? Anyway random thought.
This seems to change every edition or so. 4th Ed they could take a sonic blaster, chainsword, and bolter, and always struck first in melee due to their initiative. Then 6th Ed made Sonic Blasters were absolute trash, and forced an either all sonic of melee loadout. So you played them with either Blastmasters and bolters or melee with a Doom Siren on the champ. Most chaos players outside of Emperor Children didn't take either. Then the 8th Ed hit and suddenly Sonic Blasters were good again, and the melee loadout only has +1 attack and Music of the Apocalypse over a regular CSM. They were much more viable in melee when they were actually guaranteed to always fight first whether charging or not; basically up to the 8th. They were also decent without sonics after Traitor Legions came out and gave them FNP, and an attack if the were somehow killed by something with higher initiative.
Your right though outside of those past instances there is no good reason to run Noise Marines without sonics weapons, and its a real shame.
Iron warriors player here (although I've not played a game yet due to lockdown) I've got 2 forgefiends/mauler fiends. What build would people suggest? I'm considering magnetising but game wise I'm thinking of using them as my beatstick with a disco lord and venom crawler all going forward to contest the middle of the board.
The Warp Forge wrote: So with the new points out, what's the best loadout for CSM Terminators?
After seeing what happened to Blightlords in the DG codex, I personally will not be building any more Terminator models until the codex is out. It's entirely possible any loadout that isn't specifically illustrated in the assembly instructions might be made illegal.
The Warp Forge wrote: So with the new points out, what's the best loadout for CSM Terminators?
After seeing what happened to Blightlords in the DG codex, I personally will not be building any more Terminator models until the codex is out. It's entirely possible any loadout that isn't specifically illustrated in the assembly instructions might be made illegal.
I feel as if in the wrong movie.
Like i don't think we should be afraid to customize our units, nor to build them definitively and yet here we are....
Its a pain in the backside to somehow mark models to show what weapon they actually have, when GW decides they can only have one combi weapon each, and one melee weapon from each kind, when you built them with all chainaxes and combibolters. I like WYSIWYG, its not a rule, it makes the game easier when you models are modelled with the weapons they really have. I have magnetized my termis, but i only have twenty chainaxes, ten combiplasma and ten combimelta. If GW now says a squad can only have one combi melta, one combi plasma, one combi flamer, one chain axe, one power axe, one power sword, etc. i am screwed.
p5freak wrote: Its a pain in the backside to somehow mark models to show what weapon they actually have, when GW decides they can only have one combi weapon each, and one melee weapon from each kind, when you built them with all chainaxes and combibolters. I like WYSIWYG, its not a rule, it makes the game easier when you models are modelled with the weapons they really have. I have magnetized my termis, but i only have twenty chainaxes, ten combiplasma and ten combimelta. If GW now says a squad can only have one combi melta, one combi plasma, one combi flamer, one chain axe, one power axe, one power sword, etc. i am screwed.
not to mention that this change doesn't make it easier for the newbies aswell, considering the litany of law text paragraph f.e. PM have turned into..
So basically, beyond an attempt at screwing over 3rd parties, gw has done everyone a disservice...
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Chaos Allegiance: Chaos Undivided
Detachment Command Cost
+ Stratagems +
Rewards of Chaos (1 Relic) [-1CP]
+ HQ +
Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage [13 PL, 250pts, -1CP]: Armour of Scorn
. Exalted Bloodthirster: 1. Hellfire-wrought Armour
Lord of Change [14 PL, 270pts, -1CP]: Gaze of Fate, Incorporeal Form, Infernal Gateway, The Impossible Robe, Treason of Tzeentch, Warlord
. Exalted Lord of Change: 6. Architect of Deception
The idea here, is to send the nurglings to the objectives/table corners and shove the rest of the units to my opponent's face.
There seems to be a decent synergy between the disco-lord and the Brass Scorpion/Blood Slaughterer... as so long as the disco-lord is within 6" of the Scorpion, it hits on 2+ in both assault and shooting (not that it'd need it). Also, with Blood Slaughterer hitting on 2s instead of 3s.
The Exalted Thrister and Exalted LoC are configured for durability to add to the army's overall threat.
With one SuperHeavy and 3 HQs, so I don't think I'm bleeding VPs to my opponent in this list....other than any vehicle victory conditions...
Thoughts?
EDIT: I'll crosspost this in Army List as it's probably more appropriate there.
Just a quick question guys. The wife and I are finally delving into 9th after a short hiatus from 40k, and I was curious what Chaos was doing as a faction. If we're updating our armies for slightly more competitive play what Chaos stuff improved over 8th edition, what got worse, etc...
Also, are any supplements like Psychic Awakening still valid? I bought, but never tried the book + Fabius Bile.
in CSM, obliterators are good. Especially Iron Warrior Obliterators. Berserkers are still good too. You need to get them into charge range though, and they are very fragile. Abaddon is still really good too. Possessed are good too, but you need to build a list around them to get the best out of them, and soup it with Slanaash chaos daemons so that they can advance and charge.
And Chaos daemons are really strong right now because Slanaash daemons are strong.
Eldenfirefly wrote: And Chaos daemons are really strong right now because Slanaash daemons are strong.
Slaanesh Daemons are fantastic.
Chaos undivided detachments comprised of Nurgle and Tzeentch are good.
Pure Nurgle or pure Tzeentch are meh.
Khorne is the red-headed step child that got left at the park.
whembly wrote: Hey guys, just wanting to do a little theoryhammering about this list I'm going to bring to a 2k point tournament at the end of the month.
I've yet to play a game under the new CA, but I understand that there's a premium to secure objectives and mobility.
Please critique and correct me if I get any rules/strategies incorrect.
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Chaos Allegiance: Chaos Undivided
Detachment Command Cost
+ Stratagems +
Rewards of Chaos (1 Relic) [-1CP]
+ HQ +
Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage [13 PL, 250pts, -1CP]: Armour of Scorn
. Exalted Bloodthirster: 1. Hellfire-wrought Armour
Lord of Change [14 PL, 270pts, -1CP]: Gaze of Fate, Incorporeal Form, Infernal Gateway, The Impossible Robe, Treason of Tzeentch, Warlord
. Exalted Lord of Change: 6. Architect of Deception
The idea here, is to send the nurglings to the objectives/table corners and shove the rest of the units to my opponent's face.
There seems to be a decent synergy between the disco-lord and the Brass Scorpion/Blood Slaughterer... as so long as the disco-lord is within 6" of the Scorpion, it hits on 2+ in both assault and shooting (not that it'd need it). Also, with Blood Slaughterer hitting on 2s instead of 3s.
The Exalted Thrister and Exalted LoC are configured for durability to add to the army's overall threat.
With one SuperHeavy and 3 HQs, so I don't think I'm bleeding VPs to my opponent in this list....other than any vehicle victory conditions...
Thoughts?
EDIT: I'll crosspost this in Army List as it's probably more appropriate there.
I think in a competitive setting, there are going to be shooty lists that literally kill your Greater Brass Scorpian on turn 1. Just something to think about.
whembly wrote: Hey guys, just wanting to do a little theoryhammering about this list I'm going to bring to a 2k point tournament at the end of the month.
I've yet to play a game under the new CA, but I understand that there's a premium to secure objectives and mobility.
Please critique and correct me if I get any rules/strategies incorrect.
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Chaos Allegiance: Chaos Undivided
Detachment Command Cost
+ Stratagems +
Rewards of Chaos (1 Relic) [-1CP]
+ HQ +
Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage [13 PL, 250pts, -1CP]: Armour of Scorn
. Exalted Bloodthirster: 1. Hellfire-wrought Armour
Lord of Change [14 PL, 270pts, -1CP]: Gaze of Fate, Incorporeal Form, Infernal Gateway, The Impossible Robe, Treason of Tzeentch, Warlord
. Exalted Lord of Change: 6. Architect of Deception
The idea here, is to send the nurglings to the objectives/table corners and shove the rest of the units to my opponent's face.
There seems to be a decent synergy between the disco-lord and the Brass Scorpion/Blood Slaughterer... as so long as the disco-lord is within 6" of the Scorpion, it hits on 2+ in both assault and shooting (not that it'd need it). Also, with Blood Slaughterer hitting on 2s instead of 3s.
The Exalted Thrister and Exalted LoC are configured for durability to add to the army's overall threat.
With one SuperHeavy and 3 HQs, so I don't think I'm bleeding VPs to my opponent in this list....other than any vehicle victory conditions...
Thoughts?
EDIT: I'll crosspost this in Army List as it's probably more appropriate there.
I think in a competitive setting, there are going to be shooty lists that literally kill your Greater Brass Scorpian on turn 1. Just something to think about.
Yeah, Brass Scorpion isn't all that much different than the Knights, just a wee bit faster. So, any list that can shoot/weather Knights would do just fine.
I ran into blade guard units with this list, and the amount of 4++ with the apothecary and captain auras, those units tanked the Scorpion easily.
I'm probably going to drop the scorpion (probably in favor of Mortarion), because my meta is mostly marines, and it'll be worst when the new Dark Angels codex.
The transhuman strat is a game changer and the only decent counter I can think of, is weight of fire against marines.
I will say that nurglings for obj scoring are stellar, especially using that strat to get a base back on a 5+ for each model destroyed in a phase. I only had 3 bases per unit, and now I'm thinking 4 nurgling base is the sweet spot (you have to do 16 wounds to destroy the unit in one go).
I will say that 9th is a vastly different game than any edition with all the Primary/Secondary scoring... I'm realizing that I need to build my list to maximize the scoring, rather than building a TAC/Counter to the meta.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: May I ask which Slaanesh Daemons are good? We own stupid amounts of Nurgle, Tzeentch, and Khorne, but I never really amassed much Slaanesh.
they play great the mission, fast, take early obj and have big swing in melee, and most of times you need melee to win, you must move on objectives. Often they are paired with nurgle/tzeentch, nurglings keep backfield obj, keepers/Loc keep pressure. A nice list play EC patrol with 20 sl termies.
There's rumors lockdowns are about to soften in my area. People are talking about games again and I'm thinking about CSM.
According to 40k Stats, melee armies are doing well in tournaments. Anyone finding success with a pure melee army?
The list I have in mind would build around 2 Lords of Skulls with 80+ Cultists, cc Helbrutes and Disco Lords / Dark Apostles for HQs. Just don't have enough of a sense of 9th to know if it would work in most games.
2 LOS make no sense, because it costs you 6 CP, you need two SHAUX detachments, and the LOS dont gain detachment abilities. Running 3 LOS in a superheavy detachment will cost you 3CP, the same as 1 LOS, in 1 SHAUX detachment. Terrain is a hard counter to titanic units, a simple barricade, or fuel pipe, is a road block for them. They must subtract 2" from their movement, and cant end their move on top of it. They cant hide behind dense cover, obscuring, because they have 18+ wounds.
techsoldaten wrote: There's rumors lockdowns are about to soften in my area. People are talking about games again and I'm thinking about CSM.
According to 40k Stats, melee armies are doing well in tournaments. Anyone finding success with a pure melee army?
The list I have in mind would build around 2 Lords of Skulls with 80+ Cultists, cc Helbrutes and Disco Lords / Dark Apostles for HQs. Just don't have enough of a sense of 9th to know if it would work in most games.
One melee CSM list I saw that did extremely well in a recent tournament ran 3 max squads of 20 slanaash possessed. It took world bearers, with master of possession to ensure that Cursed earth or warp time went off. It then souped in a bit of Slanaash Daemons mainly for the HQs to give the possessed advance and charge. It was a super aggressive list that could obliterate a list that wasn't prepared for it.
It didn't charge everything across the board. It would hide all the possessed behind obsuring. Then it would use warp time plus advance and charge to send the possessed in successive waves across the board to tag everything in combat and kill stuff. The first wave would reliably kill all blocking chaff. Then the second and third wave would go in and finish off the rest of the army behind the chaff. The guy got close to full points for almost all of his games. Only had 1 loss which he still scored like 70 points or something.
p5freak wrote: 2 LOS make no sense, because it costs you 6 CP, you need two SHAUX detachments, and the LOS dont gain detachment abilities. Running 3 LOS in a superheavy detachment will cost you 3CP, the same as 1 LOS, in 1 SHAUX detachment. Terrain is a hard counter to titanic units, a simple barricade, or fuel pipe, is a road block for them. They must subtract 2" from their movement, and cant end their move on top of it. They cant hide behind dense cover, obscuring, because they have 18+ wounds.
A Super Heavy Detachment costs 6CP if it contains any TITANIC units so 3 and 2 LOS cost the same, but 1 only costs 3CP.
p5freak wrote:2 LOS make no sense, because it costs you 6 CP, you need two SHAUX detachments, and the LOS dont gain detachment abilities. Running 3 LOS in a superheavy detachment will cost you 3CP, the same as 1 LOS, in 1 SHAUX detachment. Terrain is a hard counter to titanic units, a simple barricade, or fuel pipe, is a road block for them. They must subtract 2" from their movement, and cant end their move on top of it. They cant hide behind dense cover, obscuring, because they have 18+ wounds.
Yeah, I think I could come up with another model to fill out a super heavy detachment. Would not be a LOS but something else.
Bit it sounds like you're saying obscuring terrain is a Titanic killer. Good to know.
Eldenfirefly wrote:One melee CSM list I saw that did extremely well in a recent tournament ran 3 max squads of 20 slanaash possessed. It took world bearers, with master of possession to ensure that Cursed earth or warp time went off. It then souped in a bit of Slanaash Daemons mainly for the HQs to give the possessed advance and charge. It was a super aggressive list that could obliterate a list that wasn't prepared for it.
It didn't charge everything across the board. It would hide all the possessed behind obsuring. Then it would use warp time plus advance and charge to send the possessed in successive waves across the board to tag everything in combat and kill stuff. The first wave would reliably kill all blocking chaff. Then the second and third wave would go in and finish off the rest of the army behind the chaff. The guy got close to full points for almost all of his games. Only had 1 loss which he still scored like 70 points or something.
This is useful. Do you remember what tournament?
Would like to know if that list featured any anti-tank at all. My general impression of 9th is mobility / large squads beats well-rounded squads.
Dark Disciples [1 PL, 10pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 2x Dark Disciple: 2x Close combat weapon
+ HQ +
Dark Apostle [5 PL, -1CP, 80pts]: Apostle of the Dark Council, Benediction of Darkness, Epistle of Lorgar, Mark of Khorne, Soultearer Portent, Wrathful Entreaty
Master of Possession [5 PL, 95pts]: 4. Master of the Union, Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, Mark of Nurgle, Mutated Invigoration, The Malefic Tome, Warlord
Sorcerer [6 PL, 90pts]: Baleful Icon, Bolt pistol, Force sword, Mark of Nurgle, Prescience, Warptime
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 60pts]: Mark of Khorne
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun: 9x Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 60pts]: Mark of Khorne
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun: 9x Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 60pts]: Mark of Khorne
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun: 9x Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
+ Elites +
Possessed [20 PL, 410pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. 20x Possessed: 20x Horrifying Mutations
Possessed [20 PL, 410pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. 20x Possessed: 20x Horrifying Mutations
Possessed [20 PL, 410pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. 20x Possessed: 20x Horrifying Mutations
Hard for me to understand the specific reasons Harlequins, Slaanesh Daemons and Sisters are so powerful. It's usually characterized as clearing objectives, board control, racking up points, etc.
A while back, I talked about how important Black Legion's World Killers Stratagem may prove to be. The more I think about it - 60 buffed Possessed shrieking across the board but the real threat is a 10-man Cultist unit that walks up and tells you BTFO. Council of Traitors would let you put a Warlord Trait on a Dark Apostle and the Sorcerer, but you'd have to take a CL in place of a MoP.
I wonder how that would fare against some of the other top lists.
Well, warp time and cursed earth was very important to get off. So, that list took world bearers because they have a strat to gaurantee psychic goes off, and it can't be denied. Because otherwise, possessed are just T4, 2W with 5++. Oh, because he took slanaash daemons and CSM slanaash, so he can also cast delightful agonies twice. Its considered two different spells.
Actually, that list was great on scoring. It scored max points in 3 or 4 out of 7 games it won that tourney or something like that. And it flat out obliterated armies who weren't prepared.
I remember watching one game in youtube where they came back to check on it. It was facing a classic SM list (Salamanders or something). One wave up, tag the entire midboard, wipe out all the SM troops on the midboard. By turn 3, it was this big wave of possessed converging onto the few shooting units left on the board which were all backed into a small corner with nowhere left to run.
I think it was a tabling by turn 4. The list didn't just outscore the opponent, it often obliterated the opponent. You can't score 100 points so consistantly at a tourney otherwise.
Here is the link. 8 rounds. He got 7 wins and only 1 loss. It was the Uprising Adelaine open, here is the link showing the final round. The commentors jumped all over the place. The possessed list got 2nd, losing to a chaos list that swept 8 wins out of 8.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnFshtNKnyI&ab_channel=ArtofWar40k
he took SL demons cause he can get SL possesed advance and charge that's the main point. Is really a good list, fast, hard hitting and with some nice tricks,
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, warp time and cursed earth was very important to get off. So, that list took world bearers because they have a strat to gaurantee psychic goes off, and it can't be denied. Because otherwise, possessed are just T4, 2W with 5++. Oh, because he took slanaash daemons and CSM slanaash, so he can also cast delightful agonies twice. Its considered two different spells.
Actually, that list was great on scoring. It scored max points in 3 or 4 out of 7 games it won that tourney or something like that. And it flat out obliterated armies who weren't prepared.
Dunno if anyone is watching the Heavy Intercessors thread, but this is worth paying attention to.
Heavy Intercessors are troops, they cost 8 points more than an Intercessor. Better T, better save, and their standard gun is a Heavy Bolt Rifle - 36" range, Rapid Fire 1, S 5 AP -1 D 1. For 10 points, they can upgrade to an Executor Heavy Bolter which is Heavy 2, 42" range, S 5 AP -2 D3.
So they're a tougher version of HBDevs with Obsec who can be upgraded to kill Terminators with each wound from las cannon distance.
When Intercessors got upgraded in 8th edition, range became a major problem for me. Played a series of games where opponents just stepped back to 30" distance each turn, making it impossible to charge while they could still shoot. When the Heavy Intercessor models are released, the situation is going to get worse.
Think about how this stacks up against 10 Possessed with a 4+ Invul - arguably the best CSM melee option. Even advancing with Warptime, it would take 3 turns for them to cover 40". The Mathhammer suggests 5 HIs with EHBs standing still would average 5 wounding shots a turn, more if there's a Lieutenant nearby. Even with ignoring half those shots, that still means only a few Possessed get close enough for a charge.
The cost of 10 Possessed is slightly more than the cost of 5 HIs with EHBs. This math sucks for CSMs, costs scale linearly and there's no hard counters.
Intervening terrain, other buffs, who goes first, Loyalist chapter tactics, the secondaries you choose, etc could all affect outcomes, this isn't a silver bullet for Loyalists. But I don't see how Chaos stacks up against this, we don't have a troops option that's good at anything beyond mid-range. Loyalists now have line troops that can one-shot Chaos' best elite troops from across the table.
The 9th edition Chaos Codex will need to do a lot to compensate. Hope designers are paying attention to this dynamic.
It's not as bad as all that. You can deep strike the possessed and then charge the intercessors. If you use Emperor's Children you can probably guarantee to get the charge off due to Honor the Prince.
They're limited to one Heavy Bolter (or variant) per five.
They also have to take the same variant as their basic rifles. (Heavy 3 AP0 for Assault 3 AP0, standard Heavy Bolter AP-1 D2 for Rapid Fire 1 AP-1, and the D3 is only if they take the Stalker variant.)
Edit: They're still REALLY GOOD. But you've been misinformed as to how lethal they can be.
They also have to take the same variant as their basic rifles. (Heavy 3 AP0 for Assault 3 AP0, standard Heavy Bolter AP-1 D2 for Rapid Fire 1 AP-1, and the D3 is only if they take the Stalker variant.)
Edit: They're still REALLY GOOD. But you've been misinformed as to how lethal they can be.
Yeah, I was off, but it's still very bad. From the datasheet in the Codex:
"If no model in this unit is equipped with a heavy bolter, you can take one of the following options: All of the models in the unit can have their heavy bolt rifles replaced with 1 hellstorm bolt rifle each, or all of the models in the unit can have their heavy bolt rifles replaced with 1 executor bolt rifle each."
Heavy Bolt Rifle: 36" Rapid Fire 1 S5 AP-1 D 1
Hellstorm: 30" Assault 3 S5 AP 0 D1
Executor: 42" Heavy 1 S5 AP-2 D2
There's a heavy variant for each, which can also be swapped.
"For every 5 models in this unit, 1 Heavy Intercessor's heavy bolt rifle can be replaced with 1 heavy bolter, 1 Heavy Intercessor's hellstorm bolt rifle can be replaced with 1 hellstorm heavy bolter, or 1 Heavy Intercessor's executor bolt rifle can be replaced with 1 executor heavy bolter."
Heavy Bolter: 36" Heavy 3 S5 AP-1 D2
Hellstorm Heavy Bolter: 30" Assault 3 S5 AP0 D1
Executor Heavy Bolter: 42" Heavy 2 S5 AP-2 D3
You pay +10 points for the heavy variants, nothing for the basic rifle upgrades.
So it's 140 points for 5 S4 T5 W3 troops with a 3+ save and 30" - 42" range, who have the option for an extra big gun for 10 points.
By comparison, they cost 2x the price of a CSM and only 8pts more than Possessed.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, warp time and cursed earth was very important to get off. So, that list took world bearers because they have a strat to gaurantee psychic goes off, and it can't be denied. Because otherwise, possessed are just T4, 2W with 5++. Oh, because he took slanaash daemons and CSM slanaash, so he can also cast delightful agonies twice. Its considered two different spells.
Actually, that list was great on scoring. It scored max points in 3 or 4 out of 7 games it won that tourney or something like that. And it flat out obliterated armies who weren't prepared.
Dunno if anyone is watching the Heavy Intercessors thread, but this is worth paying attention to.
Heavy Intercessors are troops, they cost 8 points more than an Intercessor. Better T, better save, and their standard gun is a Heavy Bolt Rifle - 36" range, Rapid Fire 1, S 5 AP -1 D 1. For 10 points, they can upgrade to an Executor Heavy Bolter which is Heavy 2, 42" range, S 5 AP -2 D3.
So they're a tougher version of HBDevs with Obsec who can be upgraded to kill Terminators with each wound from las cannon distance.
When Intercessors got upgraded in 8th edition, range became a major problem for me. Played a series of games where opponents just stepped back to 30" distance each turn, making it impossible to charge while they could still shoot. When the Heavy Intercessor models are released, the situation is going to get worse.
Think about how this stacks up against 10 Possessed with a 4+ Invul - arguably the best CSM melee option. Even advancing with Warptime, it would take 3 turns for them to cover 40". The Mathhammer suggests 5 HIs with EHBs standing still would average 5 wounding shots a turn, more if there's a Lieutenant nearby. Even with ignoring half those shots, that still means only a few Possessed get close enough for a charge.
The cost of 10 Possessed is slightly more than the cost of 5 HIs with EHBs. This math sucks for CSMs, costs scale linearly and there's no hard counters.
Intervening terrain, other buffs, who goes first, Loyalist chapter tactics, the secondaries you choose, etc could all affect outcomes, this isn't a silver bullet for Loyalists. But I don't see how Chaos stacks up against this, we don't have a troops option that's good at anything beyond mid-range. Loyalists now have line troops that can one-shot Chaos' best elite troops from across the table.
The 9th edition Chaos Codex will need to do a lot to compensate. Hope designers are paying attention to this dynamic.
That was 8th edition. Nobody stands back at 36 or 42 inches to shoot these days especially if they are troops. Only the heavy support might stand so far back. Because the mid objectives are just too important. These are beefy troops choices which are obsec. I would want to deploy them nearer to the front. Deploying them 36 to 42 inches away means they will be too far away from the midboard objectives. There are no purely shooting armies in 9th ed. Because the midboard objectives are worth so much in primary VP. You need to have stuff go up to contest, take and hold the midboard.
In 9th edition, you can get tabled and still win the game from scoring VP. Its not about how much you kill, its about how many VP you score.
Sorry, I went to read more on that thread. It appears that this type of unit is more of a shooty threat. Its designed to ideally hold a backline objective. This is no different from having a tank paired up with a troop unit on a backline objective. You got shooting paired with obsec on that backline objective. In the end, the midboard objectives are more important. Unless you have an army that can sweep across the board, or you plant to deep strike into enemy deployment or use the strategic reserves rule to come in, otherwise, most players in 9th ed tend to worry more about the midboard than the backline objectives.
It reads like heavy intercessors are not ideal for moving up to contest the midboard objectives. In which case, I wouldn't worry that much about them. For pure shooty power from long range, there are far more dangerous stuff already available these days. Like I said, in 9th ed, more often than not, the game is won or lost on the midfield. Backline unit huggers do matter but they are not going to be game breaking.
Eldenfirefly wrote: That was 8th edition. Nobody stands back at 36 or 42 inches to shoot these days especially if they are troops. Only the heavy support might stand so far back. Because the mid objectives are just too important. These are beefy troops choices which are obsec. I would want to deploy them nearer to the front. Deploying them 36 to 42 inches away means they will be too far away from the midboard objectives. There are no purely shooting armies in 9th ed. Because the midboard objectives are worth so much in primary VP. You need to have stuff go up to contest, take and hold the midboard.
In 9th edition, you can get tabled and still win the game from scoring VP. Its not about how much you kill, its about how many VP you score.
Sorry, I went to read more on that thread. It appears that this type of unit is more of a shooty threat. Its designed to ideally hold a backline objective. This is no different from having a tank paired up with a troop unit on a backline objective. You got shooting paired with obsec on that backline objective. In the end, the midboard objectives are more important. Unless you have an army that can sweep across the board, or you plant to deep strike into enemy deployment or use the strategic reserves rule to come in, otherwise, most players in 9th ed tend to worry more about the midboard than the backline objectives.
It reads like heavy intercessors are not ideal for moving up to contest the midboard objectives. In which case, I wouldn't worry that much about them. For pure shooty power from long range, there are far more dangerous stuff already available these days. Like I said, in 9th ed, more often than not, the game is won or lost on the midfield. Backline unit huggers do matter but they are not going to be game breaking.
Yeah, these guys break the mold.
They can camp an objective in the backfield while supporting skirmishers across the board. Plus they're almost as tough as Terminators.
As an opponent, there's going to be layers to NuMarine armies we haven't seen before. You're going to have to plan for taking out weaker infantry at mid-range and tougher shooty infantry at a distance. This isn't anything like Tacticals and Devastators, this is something new.
BillyN831 wrote: Three questions. What is the optimal configuration for daemon princes, for chaos terminators, and what are a few good special characters? Thank you.
It really depends on what Legion you are planning to run them as.
Daemon Princes are typically run as double talon for the +3 attacks.
Terminators look to be going the way of combibolter or combiplasma and single lightning claw.
As for special characters, it really depends on your Legion and army composition.
Melee heavy will benefit from an Exalted Champion.
Daemon-Engine heavy comps will benefit from a MoP or even a Warpsmith.
As an opponent, there's going to be layers to NuMarine armies we haven't seen before. You're going to have to plan for taking out weaker infantry at mid-range and tougher shooty infantry at a distance. This isn't anything like Tacticals and Devastators, this is something new.
You need to get how 9th is... you CANT anymore plan to build army to shoot out of board your opponent, that dont work (of course as usual i consider your opponent is competent with a decent list), obscuring terrain, malus to hit and fact that now you score progressive, dont let gunlines win any single game anymore. You need to move and contest mid game, you need an army competent in melee.
As an opponent, there's going to be layers to NuMarine armies we haven't seen before. You're going to have to plan for taking out weaker infantry at mid-range and tougher shooty infantry at a distance. This isn't anything like Tacticals and Devastators, this is something new.
You need to get how 9th is... you CANT anymore plan to build army to shoot out of board your opponent, that dont work (of course as usual i consider your opponent is competent with a decent list), obscuring terrain, malus to hit and fact that now you score progressive, dont let gunlines win any single game anymore. You need to move and contest mid game, you need an army competent in melee.
Appreciate your comments about 9th edition. My point is a little different, not arguing Marines are going gunline.
Am saying Heavy Intercessors shooting range is from 30" to 42". They can support frontline troops from the rear with weapons similar to Heavy Bolters.
This will enable some tactics that I could see being very effective. Not sure Chaos has a good counter.
So is CSM pretty much fethed until the codex when they get the 2 wounds and other upgrades? I'm sitting on some stuff I want to do as Iron Warriors (monofaction) but seems like there's no point until the update. God forbid GW just errata something as critical as an extra wound...
Does CSM have any solid anti armor ranged threats? I play Death guard but find my backfield armor pressure is week, and as I already am bringing a CSM sorceror to warptime morty, figured maybe there was a chance csm had some other support options I could throw in?
ninjafiredragon wrote: Does CSM have any solid anti armor ranged threats? I play Death guard but find my backfield armor pressure is week, and as I already am bringing a CSM sorceror to warptime morty, figured maybe there was a chance csm had some other support options I could throw in?
There is also Iron warriors Slanaash Obliterators. These are very points intensive though, and usually require additional support like a master of possession to get the best out of them. And they are only 24 inch range. However, on the turn they come down, one single unit of three can shoot twice for 36 shots in total. They have a high chance of doing a lot of damage. Pretty CP intensive though.
Eldenfirefly wrote: There is also Iron warriors Slanaash Obliterators. These are very points intensive though, and usually require additional support like a master of possession to get the best out of them. And they are only 24 inch range. However, on the turn they come down, one single unit of three can shoot twice for 36 shots in total. They have a high chance of doing a lot of damage. Pretty CP intensive though.
I mean, isn't high CP cost not just a general disclaimer infront of our units?
ninjafiredragon wrote: Does CSM have any solid anti armor ranged threats? I play Death guard but find my backfield armor pressure is week, and as I already am bringing a CSM sorceror to warptime morty, figured maybe there was a chance csm had some other support options I could throw in?
You cant warptime morty. He isnt HERETIC ASTARTES anymore.
He is still heretic Astartes, all death guard are.
I'm not sure tho that cruise missile warp timing Morty is the right play anymore tho, his damage output isn't what it was and you lose all his force multiplying buffs if he's on the other half of the table to the rest of your army.
Warp time was great in 8th as you wanted to maximise the damage he inflicted before he inevitably died in your opponents first shooting phase...
ninjafiredragon wrote: Does CSM have any solid anti armor ranged threats? I play Death guard but find my backfield armor pressure is week, and as I already am bringing a CSM sorceror to warptime morty, figured maybe there was a chance csm had some other support options I could throw in?
For now, the best ranged anti-armor solution is Slannesh Havocs with Lascannons. You can use Endless Cacophony to give them 8 shots per turn. Make them Alpha Legion to make them more durable.
Wondering if 'ranged' is the best metric for CSM right now. Havocs 'win' by virtue of being able to take 4 guns w/ 48" range and a Mark, giving them access to the Stratagem. But they're pretty fragile, you can only take 5 T5 1W models. Most opponents will be equipped to take them out quickly in a game.
At mid-range, a unit of 3 Obliterators will have 12 shots and can also take a mark to double their shooting. While there's some randomness and Obliterators are not cheap, they typically outperform Havocs due to volume of shots and greater number of wounds.
The situation is dissatisfying. These 2 units are so efficient compared to everything else in the Codex but mediocre relative to ranged options for Loyalist armies. This is how our top shooting options compare with Deathwatch:
- For a little more than the cost of 1 Obliterator, I could take a 5-man Proteus Kill Team with 4 Frag Cannons. They'd have 8 S7 AP-2 D2 shots, plus a different shooting profile for anti-infantry, plus whatever the Watch Sargent is carrying, plus 10 wounds total for the unit. And I could deliver them in a Drop Pod for less than 100 points, and I could add additional ablative wounds in the form of Vets with Storm Shields and SIA Boltguns.
- For a little more than the cost 2 Obliterators, I could take a 10-man Indomitor Kill Team with 5 Heavy Bolt Rifles plus 5 Heavy Melta Rifles. The HMRs are S8 AP-4 Dd6+2. That unit is T5, 21 Wounds, 3+ Save.
- For a little less than the cost of 3 Obliterators, I could take an 8-man Deathwatch Terminator Squad with 5 TH / SS, 3 Power Fists, and 3 Cyclone Missile Launchers (in addition to other goodies.) That squad could be placed on the battlefield, teleport once per game anywhere it wants, and would have 6 S8 AP-2 D2 shots, in addition to 24 wounds and a 4++ invul save. It would be devastating in melee and most armies would not have a way to destroy it.
These differences in efficiency are magnified if the DW army optimizes for infantry. There are a few ways DW armies can put out 100+ S5 AP-2 D2 shots with rerolls to hit at 30"+ per turn for under 500 points.
So I question the usefulness of CSM ranged shooting in 9th edition. Our best shooting units are outclassed by the lowest-tier loyalist faction, who all happen to have delivery options that can bring them to mid-range anywhere on the board.
For reference, I played a Black Legion gunline most of 8th. It was optimized around lascannons and (sometimes) Scorpius Whirlwinds with rerolls to hit. I can't see a way to make ranged shooting work in 9th, it's a tax on melee units. And I'm having a hard time identifying favorable melee matchups, even massed Possessed have some hard counters.
EDIT: and don't get me started on Tanks / Dreadnoughts. Even Forgeworld.
I have hung up my black legion boots and solely playing death guard for now because of these exact issues. In friendly games my opponents were kind enough to tone down their lists considerably just so we could have a decent game, in competitive games it just wasn't fun.
The only thing Black Legion have going for them for now is Abaddon giving full rerolls and not worrying about core so sitting him next to things like a couple of storm cannon Leviathans or vulkite Contemptors is just horrific.
Even then I found I could put out massive damage early on but then the rest of my army would just quickly melt away...
Assuming things are as they currently are, with 1W CSMs being the norm, how would you create a melee-focused army? CSMs with chainswords seem like a good start, but you have to get them where they're going, so probably a rhino or two. Thoughts?
Octopoid wrote: Assuming things are as they currently are, with 1W CSMs being the norm, how would you create a melee-focused army? CSMs with chainswords seem like a good start, but you have to get them where they're going, so probably a rhino or two. Thoughts?
Octopoid wrote: Assuming things are as they currently are, with 1W CSMs being the norm, how would you create a melee-focused army? CSMs with chainswords seem like a good start, but you have to get them where they're going, so probably a rhino or two. Thoughts?
The most "competitive" lists seem to be chaos soup rather than pure CSM. So, lists like Mortarion, Magnus, and you then soup in the best Daemons and Emperor's Children or Iron warriors depending on how you run it.
A trio of Contemptors or Decimators with soul burners pumping out mortal wounds turn is also something to consider. Give them good support with Maser of possession, etc and if they stay alive long enough to keep on shooting, they will melt anything within their shooting range from mortal wounds. Of course, if your opponent is a good one, there is no way he will let such dangerous vehicles live. (unless he is playing hordes and don't care).
Lastly, CSM terminators are cheap enough and yet, deadly enough and tanky enough that they are decent to field. Emperor's children Terminators get an almost gauranteed charge in with Pride of the price strategem.
And noise marines will clear chaff with ease.
Again, the problem is all about resilience. CSM just doesn't have it. We can dish damage out, but most of our stuff are quite fragile. We just don't have the staying power unless we are running something skewed like Mortarion+Magnus.
Hi, using GoonHammer recent 40k series on unit roles in 9th edition, I have built an Iron Warriors 2K list with each unit in a role. The short of it is, taking Obliterators to the RNG casino - i.e. deep strike one unit in at a time, buff them with strats such as re-roll stats, veterans of the long war, tank hunters and endless cacophony. Rinse and repeat.
(Brawlers) 10 Terminators - Combi-Bolters & Power Axes, MoS (Brawlers) 9 Bikes - Chainswords & Additional Combi-Bolter on Champion, MoS
(Objective Utility) 30 Cultists - MoS (Objective Utility) 30 Cultists - MoS
(Elimination) 10 Warp Talons - MoK (Elimination) 3 Obliterators - MoS (Elimination) 3 Obliterators - MoS
The Warp Talons and HQ choices are likely the controversial picks. The talons I am considering as a glass hammer unit to be held in a more counter attack role - perhaps even using the cannon fodder strat to protect them with Cultists if I can't adequately hide them. They hit hard in combat, just getting them there is the trick!
Re the HQ's - The Lord and Exalted Champion combo I like, as you get stable platforms for re-rolls. Exalted champion turns the numbers on the melee weapons like power axes and swords a bit more favorable then just defaulting to lightning claws all the time. The obliterators with the greater possessed also aren't bad in a pinch if you have an exalted champion and lord around.
I could see an argument for any number of HQ combinations though. Maybe two sorcerers with presicience, warptime, delightful agonies and weaver of fates for example to buff individual units or a Dark Apostle (illusory supplication) and Master of Possession (Cursed Earth/Infernal Power).
Any thoughts? Hopefully I provided some useful insight on my thought process anyways. I think Iron Warrior Obliterators and the casino run in my limited games of 9th was the most effective build as they have the raw hitting power RNG providing to wipe units at range.
Do Word Bearers Possessed unit cause 4 wounds with each attack that gets a 7+ when they use the Revered Hosts stratagem and have the virulent blessing psychic power on them? (Plague bearers cause 4 wounds with Plague banner and virulent blessing in the Chaos Daemon faq) If the Possessed unit uses other buffs such as veterans of the long war stratagem are the 4 wounds triggered on a 5+?
CKO wrote: Do Word Bearers Possessed unit cause 4 wounds with each attack that gets a 7+ when they use the Revered Hosts stratagem and have the virulent blessing psychic power on them? (Plague bearers cause 4 wounds with Plague banner and virulent blessing in the Chaos Daemon faq) If the Possessed unit uses other buffs such as veterans of the long war stratagem are the 4 wounds triggered on a 5+?
4 wounds on a 7+, yes. You cannot meaningfully combine Veterans of the Long War with Virulent Blessing, as wound rolls are capped at +/-1.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmm, have you guys seen Belakor's leaks? He looks like a beast!! Maybe he will work in some CSM lists. Or at least chaos soup lists.
Will be interesting to learn how he fits into CSM lists.
Feels like he's the hard counter to Bladeguard / Deathwing Knights. I imagine there will be a lot of lists that feature him + a Sorcerer with Death Hex.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmm, have you guys seen Belakor's leaks? He looks like a beast!! Maybe he will work in some CSM lists. Or at least chaos soup lists.
Will be interesting to learn how he fits into CSM lists.
Feels like he's the hard counter to Bladeguard / Deathwing Knights. I imagine there will be a lot of lists that feature him + a Sorcerer with Death Hex.
Death hex is so random. Unless we are playing world bearers. Either we make the warp charge roll, and then we depend on the opponent not being able to deny it, or not having a strategem that denies it. There is a lot of what ifs riding one one single psychic. Belakor brings certainty. There is nothing your opponent can do to stop him from cleaving through stuff's invul once he gets into combat. Actually, if we have Belakor in the list, death hex is just additional insurance.
The problem with Bladeguard/ Deathwing is not just their invul. Its also transhuman strategem, and their apocathery.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmm, have you guys seen Belakor's leaks? He looks like a beast!! Maybe he will work in some CSM lists. Or at least chaos soup lists.
Will be interesting to learn how he fits into CSM lists.
Feels like he's the hard counter to Bladeguard / Deathwing Knights. I imagine there will be a lot of lists that feature him + a Sorcerer with Death Hex.
Death hex is so random. Unless we are playing world bearers. Either we make the warp charge roll, and then we depend on the opponent not being able to deny it, or not having a strategem that denies it. There is a lot of what ifs riding one one single psychic. Belakor brings certainty. There is nothing your opponent can do to stop him from cleaving through stuff's invul once he gets into combat. Actually, if we have Belakor in the list, death hex is just additional insurance.
The problem with Bladeguard/ Deathwing is not just their invul. Its also transhuman strategem, and their apocathery.
Yeah, never had great success with Death Hex for the reasons you stated. Guessing it's like a 20% base possibility of success, which goes up when your opponent didn't bring psychic. When it worked, it worked great.
Looking at Belakor + Sorcerer with Death Hex as a force multiplier. Thinking about Grey Knights, Death Guard, Deathwatch, Daemons - armies that have a ton of Invuls. You build around eliminating invuls and tearing their Paladins / Deathshrouds / Terminators / GUOs apart.
I thought I would ask, but I just got two unopened kits of Forgefiends/Maulerfiends, and have no idea how to build them? Any suggestions for better/more competitive builds? I currently own neither, but do have two Disco Lords and know they might combine well in a list.
The maulerfiend has very limited ranged attacks, he has two melta pistols with 1 shot each, 6" range, or you play him melee only. The forgefiend has 36" hades autocannons, or 24" ectoplasma cannons. If i didnt already have three venomcrawlers i would play forgefiends. A maulerfiend can be killed before he reaches melee, a forgefiend can attack from 36" away.
Neither are that great to be honest, currently. Although forge fiends are probably better right now. Things may change for all we know when our codex comes out. Things are stacked against the Maulerfiend in a more competitive environment right now. Because melta guns and multi melta guns are all the rage right now. And they are the perfect gun to destroy Maulerfiends, who are literally forced to get close up in order to shine at melee.
Iron warriors player here and I'm leaning into a Daemon engine heavy list. It seems the only real way to go at the moment in regards to our very limited options.
I'm thinking of a chaos lord or some sort of character with the Daemonsmith warlord trait and having him support a trio of Daemon engines such as forgefiend/defiler/venomcrawler. This acts as a firebase for the army and can be relatively decent in terms of accuracy with rerolling 1s to hit and exploding sixes.
I would also like to include a Leviathan dread with DCCW and storm canon for even more firepower and some punch in combat as well. Currently I think oblits are far too random and expensive to take.
Troops wise I think minimum squads of Csm in rhinos aren't too bad but the only drama is the massive points cost of a rhino when you look at other factions incredible transports (looking at your drunkhari) cultists are probably more efficient but they are just rubbish.
Overall I think it's very tough to make a decent mono CSM list at the moment unless you lean really hard on the emperor's children.
Iron Warriors have a stratagem which lets you reroll the dice for oblits, so dont throw them out of the window, yet. As for daemon engines, a master of possession is good company for them. He can give them +1 to their inv, let them reroll 1s to hit and wound, heal them with his psychic powers.
Ah yes, good idea with the MOP. I'm just trying to find ways to buff Daemon engines that don't involve psychic powers as they have a tendency to fail at key moments.
The list I'm vaugely looking at is ....
Lord/MOP with Daemonsmith to buff the engines.
2 X disco lords as close combat beat sticks.
3 x.csm squads barebones with chains words.
2 venomcrawlers
1 forgefiend
1 Leviathan dread
2 terminator squads
2 X rhinos
The plan would be to absolutely nuke any enemy anti tank units as soon as possible and then throw in the disco lords and terminators to try and win the fight.
A difficult task but I think it could work against middle of the road armies. Obviously would get smashed to bits by meta lists and wouldn't be top tier but might be able to use a thematic force and have a decent chance of victory.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Ah yes, good idea with the MOP. I'm just trying to find ways to buff Daemon engines that don't involve psychic powers as they have a tendency to fail at key moments.
The list I'm vaugely looking at is ....
Lord/MOP with Daemonsmith to buff the engines.
2 X disco lords as close combat beat sticks.
3 x.csm squads barebones with chains words.
2 venomcrawlers
1 forgefiend
1 Leviathan dread
2 terminator squads
2 X rhinos
The plan would be to absolutely nuke any enemy anti tank units as soon as possible and then throw in the disco lords and terminators to try and win the fight.
A difficult task but I think it could work against middle of the road armies. Obviously would get smashed to bits by meta lists and wouldn't be top tier but might be able to use a thematic force and have a decent chance of victory.
You can consider a world bearer's legion if the psychic support is so important. World bearers has a strategem to gaurantee a psychic power going off. Honestly, the CSM 9th edition codex will likely solve many problems with our daemon engines because going by the death guard codex, its likely our engines will become WS and BS 3+. So they won't even need a LOD to baby sit them just to make them shoot or fight better.
ninjafiredragon wrote: Does CSM have any solid anti armor ranged threats? I play Death guard but find my backfield armor pressure is week, and as I already am bringing a CSM sorceror to warptime morty, figured maybe there was a chance csm had some other support options I could throw in?
For now, the best ranged anti-armor solution is Slannesh Havocs with Lascannons. You can use Endless Cacophony to give them 8 shots per turn. Make them Alpha Legion to make them more durable.
Wondering if 'ranged' is the best metric for CSM right now. Havocs 'win' by virtue of being able to take 4 guns w/ 48" range and a Mark, giving them access to the Stratagem. But they're pretty fragile, you can only take 5 T5 1W models. Most opponents will be equipped to take them out quickly in a game.
At mid-range, a unit of 3 Obliterators will have 12 shots and can also take a mark to double their shooting. While there's some randomness and Obliterators are not cheap, they typically outperform Havocs due to volume of shots and greater number of wounds.
The situation is dissatisfying. These 2 units are so efficient compared to everything else in the Codex but mediocre relative to ranged options for Loyalist armies. This is how our top shooting options compare with Deathwatch:
- For a little more than the cost of 1 Obliterator, I could take a 5-man Proteus Kill Team with 4 Frag Cannons. They'd have 8 S7 AP-2 D2 shots, plus a different shooting profile for anti-infantry, plus whatever the Watch Sargent is carrying, plus 10 wounds total for the unit. And I could deliver them in a Drop Pod for less than 100 points, and I could add additional ablative wounds in the form of Vets with Storm Shields and SIA Boltguns.
- For a little more than the cost 2 Obliterators, I could take a 10-man Indomitor Kill Team with 5 Heavy Bolt Rifles plus 5 Heavy Melta Rifles. The HMRs are S8 AP-4 Dd6+2. That unit is T5, 21 Wounds, 3+ Save.
- For a little less than the cost of 3 Obliterators, I could take an 8-man Deathwatch Terminator Squad with 5 TH / SS, 3 Power Fists, and 3 Cyclone Missile Launchers (in addition to other goodies.) That squad could be placed on the battlefield, teleport once per game anywhere it wants, and would have 6 S8 AP-2 D2 shots, in addition to 24 wounds and a 4++ invul save. It would be devastating in melee and most armies would not have a way to destroy it.
These differences in efficiency are magnified if the DW army optimizes for infantry. There are a few ways DW armies can put out 100+ S5 AP-2 D2 shots with rerolls to hit at 30"+ per turn for under 500 points.
So I question the usefulness of CSM ranged shooting in 9th edition. Our best shooting units are outclassed by the lowest-tier loyalist faction, who all happen to have delivery options that can bring them to mid-range anywhere on the board.
For reference, I played a Black Legion gunline most of 8th. It was optimized around lascannons and (sometimes) Scorpius Whirlwinds with rerolls to hit. I can't see a way to make ranged shooting work in 9th, it's a tax on melee units. And I'm having a hard time identifying favorable melee matchups, even massed Possessed have some hard counters.
EDIT: and don't get me started on Tanks / Dreadnoughts. Even Forgeworld.
I am kinda waiting for our codex to get a much needed revamp. But in the meanwhile, accepting the fact that our unts are fragile *because 1W marines). It seems like we are forced to become a "tricksy" army. A bit like gene stealer cults. So, go for secondaries like deploy scramblers, and put 2 units of cheap cultists or CSM squad into reserve. Have two units of Emperor's children terminators in deep strike and have them come down on turn 2 and 3 with pride of the prince to charge into combat.
We have to accept the fact that our army is too fragile. If we have all of it on the board on turn one and go for an all in shoot out or brawl, we will quickly run out of gas. So instead, maybe we should try and push expendable units one at a time onto midboard or enemy deployment objectives to take over their objectives, create problems, and force them to spend effort killing these. Only make a big push on turn 3 or 4, and hope we can last till end of game.
Now honestly, I think trying to play CSM in a "tricksy" way when we don't really have that many strategems for it is not the best. But until our codex comes out. It seems like the only way to keep up with the sheer firepower or meleepower of other armies. Feed some pieces of our army slowly and go for VP and secondaries, and keep our opponent from scoring primaries. And try and drag it out to turn 5.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, along the lines of being "tricksy" , here's a list I thought up.
Emperor's Children Patrol:
HQ: Sorceror
Troops: 10 Noise marines, sonic blastors, riding in
Transport: Rhino
Elite: 2 squads of 5 Terminators, combi bolters, lightning claws and icon of excess.
Heavy support: 1 squad of Havocs with 4 Lascannons.
Red Corsairs Patrol
HQ: 1 Chaos Lord with jump pack, black mace
Troops: 3 units of 5 CSM.
Fast Attacks: 2 squads of 5 warp Talons
Elites: 1 squad of 10 Berserkers, icon of wrath, Champion with power maul. riding in
Transport: Rhino
Nurgle Daemon Patrol
HQ: 1 poxbringer
Troops: 3 units of 4 nurglings.
So, the list has 7 troops with obsec that can contest objectives and be irritating. Nurglings can snatch objectives as early as turn 1. I would deploy 1 CSM squad into reserve to deploy scramblers on turn 3. It has glass cannon units that are expected to die, but hope to wipe a unit off an objective in the turn it charges. These are your berserker squad, the 2 warp talon units and the 2 terminator units, and the jump pack warlord. The Havoc squad is a distraction. It aims its guns and fire twice at the most dangerous threat and is expected to die after that. So, hide it behind obscuring until such a threat pokes its head out.
Same for the noise marines. They will die, even with delightful agonies on them. They point their guns at the most dangerous infantry threat and fire twice and if they survive to shoot in more turns, thats great..
The Rhinos are there to also hide behind terrain, transport the noise marines and berserkers, give them +3 movement when they disembark, and move onto an objective and in general be irritating. Plus red corsairs can advance and charge. So the threat range of the wrap talons and the berserkers, and even normal CSM unit is quite large.
Everything in the army is expendable. The aim is to hide the entire army behind terrain or in terrain. Just try and get 15 VP on primary on turn 2 from the nurglings. Deep strike in piece meal on turn 2 and 3. Then feed the opponent only 2 units (max 3 units) a turn until turn 5. Drag this out to turn 5, and hope to win on VP.
(Alternatively, drop the 2 Rhinos, then will have enough points to change the 1 squad of 10 zerkers to 2 squads of 8 and 2 chaos spawn units of 1).
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am kinda waiting for our codex to get a much needed revamp. But in the meanwhile, accepting the fact that our unts are fragile *because 1W marines). It seems like we are forced to become a "tricksy" army. A bit like gene stealer cults. So, go for secondaries like deploy scramblers, and put 2 units of cheap cultists or CSM squad into reserve. Have two units of Emperor's children terminators in deep strike and have them come down on turn 2 and 3 with pride of the prince to charge into combat.
We have to accept the fact that our army is too fragile. If we have all of it on the board on turn one and go for an all in shoot out or brawl, we will quickly run out of gas. So instead, maybe we should try and push expendable units one at a time onto midboard or enemy deployment objectives to take over their objectives, create problems, and force them to spend effort killing these. Only make a big push on turn 3 or 4, and hope we can last till end of game.
Now honestly, I think trying to play CSM in a "tricksy" way when we don't really have that many strategems for it is not the best. But until our codex comes out. It seems like the only way to keep up with the sheer firepower or meleepower of other armies. Feed some pieces of our army slowly and go for VP and secondaries, and keep our opponent from scoring primaries. And try and drag it out to turn 5.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, along the lines of being "tricksy" , here's a list I thought up.
Emperor's Children Patrol:
HQ: Sorceror
Troops: 10 Noise marines, sonic blastors, riding in
Transport: Rhino
Elite: 2 squads of 5 Terminators, combi bolters, lightning claws and icon of excess.
Heavy support: 1 squad of Havocs with 4 Lascannons.
Red Corsairs Patrol
HQ: 1 Chaos Lord with jump pack, black mace
Troops: 3 units of 5 CSM.
Fast Attacks: 2 squads of 5 warp Talons
Elites: 1 squad of 10 Berserkers, icon of wrath, Champion with power maul. riding in
Transport: Rhino
Nurgle Daemon Patrol
HQ: 1 poxbringer
Troops: 3 units of 4 nurglings.
So, the list has 7 troops with obsec that can contest objectives and be irritating. Nurglings can snatch objectives as early as turn 1. I would deploy 1 CSM squad into reserve to deploy scramblers on turn 3. It has glass cannon units that are expected to die, but hope to wipe a unit off an objective in the turn it charges. These are your berserker squad, the 2 warp talon units and the 2 terminator units, and the jump pack warlord. The Havoc squad is a distraction. It aims its guns and fire twice at the most dangerous threat and is expected to die after that. So, hide it behind obscuring until such a threat pokes its head out.
Same for the noise marines. They will die, even with delightful agonies on them. They point their guns at the most dangerous infantry threat and fire twice and if they survive to shoot in more turns, thats great..
The Rhinos are there to also hide behind terrain, transport the noise marines and berserkers, give them +3 movement when they disembark, and move onto an objective and in general be irritating. Plus red corsairs can advance and charge. So the threat range of the wrap talons and the berserkers, and even normal CSM unit is quite large.
Everything in the army is expendable. The aim is to hide the entire army behind terrain or in terrain. Just try and get 15 VP on primary on turn 2 from the nurglings. Deep strike in piece meal on turn 2 and 3. Then feed the opponent only 2 units (max 3 units) a turn until turn 5. Drag this out to turn 5, and hope to win on VP.
(Alternatively, drop the 2 Rhinos, then will have enough points to change the 1 squad of 10 zerkers to 2 squads of 8 and 2 chaos spawn units of 1).
While I recognize Emperor's Children might be strongest Legion right now, 9th edition seems to be about holding / contesting objectives. Not sure any CSM are great at that task, most games appear to be decided turn 1.
Thinking how an opponent would go at that list. Pop that Rhino turn one, shoot up the Noise Marines and the Berzerkers. Grab whatever objectives the Nurglings are not on to even out the VPs. Screen the best units to ensure the Terminators and Warp Talons don't have anything good to charge when they arrive in turn 2. Ignore the CSM / CL and maybe take some shots at the Havocs. The CSMs don't have a great response, even if they go first.
Hate to be so down on CSM, but it feels like we're Tier 4 until the new Codex comes out.
Nr 2. For curiosity sake, do all daemons have the daemonic ritual ability?
What do you mean ? All daemons across all factions ?
I am considering a summer project, and considered a SC box. Basically i thought about strapping mindveil to a GP.
As for the later, i wanted to know if there are any limits on daemons for summoning in the vein of if the daemonic ritual ability is restricted, because i remembered the one list that used summoning extensively, which maybee pretty handy for generating cheap Daemon units to not break the trait rule.
Rihgu wrote: Be'lakor does not have Daemonic Ritual, however every other datasheet from Codex: Chaos Daemons does.
No datasheets from Codex: Chaos Space Marines have Daemonic Ritual.
so i remembered correctly....
Thought about daemonic incursion some mid sized squads or big gribblies with an invul.. thanks, that helped alot
Summoning Nurglings, Plaguebearers, and Horrors can be useful, depending on how many points you want to keep in reserve (remember that in order to split horrors you need to pay points for the splits, too)
I believe the "summoning heavy" list mostly made use of horrors and splitting them very very strategically. Nurglings and Plaguebearers are a little more straightforward to use.
The big gribblies are hard to summon for the most part. Probably not worth keeping enough reserve points for them since it's rare that you'll actually roll high enough to summon them.
Not Online!!! wrote: 4d6 averages, what 14? that is a rather big number to summon.
DP with wings or without should be easily possible.
Summoning is up to 3 dice. I think Word Bearers modify that a bit, but I think it's just re-roll dice. The average is 11.5, so you could still reliably summon Daemon Princes.
Summoning the super grand exalted Forgeworld Daemons is on up to 4d6, I think? That might have changed with the last FW index.
Not Online!!! wrote: 4d6 averages, what 14? that is a rather big number to summon.
DP with wings or without should be easily possible.
Summoning is up to 3 dice. I think Word Bearers modify that a bit, but I think it's just re-roll dice. The average is 11.5, so you could still reliably summon Daemon Princes.
Summoning the super grand exalted Forgeworld Daemons is on up to 4d6, I think? That might have changed with the last FW index.
I am talking about the spell of the MoP. Which modifies the throw aswell as let's you summon after movement.
Considering if one want's to use summoning somewhat productively i thik "daemonic incursion " is the way to go.
Rihgu wrote: Oh my bad, I misunderstood. That sounds like a sound plan, I'd just be worried about WC7 either failing or being denied.
But I have incredibly bad luck on the tabletop so that's just my paranoia
I thought about using Alpha legion, we are alpharius and give him the special psyker warlord fatereader, for that sweet potential CP gain and for a once a game reroll of a failed cast.
Fling the dude with warptime forward, summon 30 plaguebearers in the middle of the board, behold slugffestival.
There appears to be criticism around Be’lakor’s price and what he does for the army. Chaos space marine armies need the sum of the pieces to be greater than the whole. Be’lakor needs to be able to punch hard enough and buff enough to make up for likely 4 or 5 lords, sorcerers, masters of possession, and dark apostles in any combination of.
Admittedly by the rule of cool if I had the attention span to hobby that model into a semi respectable paint job I would drool at the rule of cool of having a beat stick monster with that gorgeous a model on the table massacring what it could victory be damned.
There appears to be criticism around Be’lakor’s price and what he does for the army. Chaos space marine armies need the sum of the pieces to be greater than the whole. Be’lakor needs to be able to punch hard enough and buff enough to make up for likely 4 or 5 lords, sorcerers, masters of possession, and dark apostles in any combination of.
Admittedly by the rule of cool if I had the attention span to hobby that model into a semi respectable paint job I would drool at the rule of cool of having a beat stick monster with that gorgeous a model on the table massacring what it could victory be damned.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Isn't he supposed to have his own psychic discipline as well? That'll be an important factor.
Yeah the Warhammer Community article did state that he’d have his own discipline. I really, really want Be’lakor to be good because I’ve always loved his lore, and the model is awesome (hell I even still love my Baby Be’la model despite the fact that it’s finecrap ^tm). I do think his psychic discipline and whatever special rules he comes with beyond what we’ve seen will make or break him though. If I had to guess he’s gonna cost a fair chunk of points (somewhere around 300) and his degrading profile is absolutely brutal. The degrading strength is sliiiightly mitigated by the fact that his sword is +4S on the piercing profile but going from M12” to 8” to 6” (side note: why on earth isn’t it 12-10-8???) and down to 4 A at the lowest hurts a lot. I think he’s really gonna need some good synergies, a solid psychic discipline, and or a unique debuff akin to what he got in AoS (although that ability is so strong it reminds of the grimoire of yesteryear where a game could be decided on a 3+ roll which wasn’t great).
H.B.M.C. wrote: Do we have any idea when Be'lakor is getting his 40k rules, outside of a completely new Chaos Marine or Chaos Daemons book?
They said "In an upcoming supplement". So maybe a new Daemons codex, or maybe another DLC Warzone book. We'll see I guess.
Also known as preorder not included DLC in tghis case...
I hope for those of you that will buy the supplement that Belakor and it's contents will be great, i just don^t think it's acceptable what GW pulled there.
The Khorne daemons crimson crown works with shooting right? Has anybody tried it with soulburner decimators?
I feel like you could really boost the MW output on these to disgusting levels.
Man I wish there was more talk about how to make our codex work in 9th edition... It’s kind of depressing. I know we all waiting for our 9e codex to drop...
Anyways adding 1-2 mortal wounds per soul burner per turn might be a good use of such an artifact. The bonus attacks don’t make more attacks though. If you could buff the attack roll or reroll 1s it would synergies even better.
Abaddon303 wrote: The Khorne daemons crimson crown works with shooting right? Has anybody tried it with soulburner decimators?
I feel like you could really boost the MW output on these to disgusting levels.
Yes, it works. Two soulburner petards put out 8 shots on average. Which will hit 5 times. For each wound roll of 6+ you will get a MW, so lets say one. Doesnt sound like a boost to disgusting levels to me.
I was just thinking 3 of them with a lord discordant so they're hitting on 2s and the master of possession letting them reroll 1s to hit and wound.
You could even make them iron warriors and give the MOP the WLT so 6s to hit explode and 6s to wound generate another shot.
Probably looking at more like around 10 MWs from each, at 24" range. The MOP can also give all the Daemon engines a 4++ so a reasonably durable little castle.
Thing is, 30 MWs a turn will cripple pretty much any list and there's not a whole lot of defence against it. Would kill Mortarian in one turn, or take out 400pts of Blightlord Terminators
You need to roll a 6+ to wound, then you get an additional attack. This additional attack must hit, and you must roll a 2+ to wound to get a MW.
The Crimson Crown
Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for a friendly KHORNE DAEMON unit within 6" of the bearer of the Crimson Crown, the model that made that attack can immediately make an extra attack against the same target using the same weapon. These extra attacks cannot themselves generate any further attacks.
The IWWLT daemonsmith gives you one additional hit on an unmodified hit roll of 6.
Daemonsmith
When resolving an attack made by a model in a friendly IRON WARRIORS DAEMON ENGINE or IRON WARRIORS CULT OF DESTRUCTION unit within 6" of this Warlord, an unmodified hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit.
This would give you two additional hits when you fire 12 shots from your six soulburners. 12 shots hitting on 2s, will give you 10 hits, plus two from daemonsmith means 12 hits, rolling 2+ to wound is 10MW for all three dreads, so 3.33 MW per dread.
The infernal power lets you reroll 1s to hit and wound.
Infernal Power
If manifested, then until the start of your next Psychic phase re-roll hit and wound rolls of 1 for attacks made by friendly <LEGION> DAEMON units whilst they are within 6" of this psyker.
I dont know anything about mathhammer, but im pretty sure you wont get 10MW from each dread, with those rerolls its more like 4-5.
Just painted up a Master of Executions last night, and jeez I hope they do something to make this guy valuable next codex.
Anybody have any success with him in any role? I kinda hamstring myself by playing Black Legion. I could see value with him in World Eaters and Emperor's Children...
I kind of hope they move guys like him to elite rather than HQ, or maybe even do something like the Feotid Virion for DG.
We have so many HQ characters which don't get a look in with the three HQ limit in 9th.
The MOE doesn't seem so bad when he's not taking up one of your HQ slots.
Rihgu wrote: Just painted up a Master of Executions last night, and jeez I hope they do something to make this guy valuable next codex.
Anybody have any success with him in any role? I kinda hamstring myself by playing Black Legion. I could see value with him in World Eaters and Emperor's Children...
master of executuions should've been an aspiring champion with a special axe, and the kit should've included a jumppack....
Rihgu wrote: Just painted up a Master of Executions last night, and jeez I hope they do something to make this guy valuable next codex.
Anybody have any success with him in any role? I kinda hamstring myself by playing Black Legion. I could see value with him in World Eaters and Emperor's Children...
I don't know... put him in a Rhino and charge him out of the Rhino and into combat as a one shot missile. Kind of like how Drukhari do it with their succubus. Except of course, a raider is much better than a Rhino and a succubus is much better than a Master of Executions, but at least the points are sort of comparable...
If you are set on Black Legion, the talismen of blood is good for him because it lets him advance and charge into combat plus reroll charges. His weapon is already good so you don't need to upgrade that. So aim for a good exchange with him. If he manages to one shot a more expensive character, it would be a good trade up. Or if he kills off a squad that is more than his points.
He has a 9+d6+12 inch threat range if he disembarks from a Rhino. Its pretty decent. And since he is cheap, and treated as a one shot missile, you don't care if he dies.
I was just thinking 3 of them with a lord discordant so they're hitting on 2s and the master of possession letting them reroll 1s to hit and wound.
You could even make them iron warriors and give the MOP the WLT so 6s to hit explode and 6s to wound generate another shot.
Probably looking at more like around 10 MWs from each, at 24" range. The MOP can also give all the Daemon engines a 4++ so a reasonably durable little castle.
Thing is, 30 MWs a turn will cripple pretty much any list and there's not a whole lot of defence against it. Would kill Mortarian in one turn, or take out 400pts of Blightlord Terminators
Well. I think you will demolish some lists, and struggle against others. They are almost like eradicators. Same 24 inch range, same weakness, needs line of sight too. No one denies their devastating firepower. But smart opponents will stay out of range or stay out of sight. And once they try and get too close, they open themselves up to being charged and tagged in combat.
3 of them with a LD and a MOP is 700 points of a shooty castle. Shooty castles alone won't win you the game so it will depend on the rest of your list. Plus this shooty castle only has a 24 inch shooting range. If your opponent gives you lots of juicy targets for this castle without having a plan to deal with them, he likely wasn't a very good player or he was simply playing a bad matchup list.
Imperium: 2 full pay load manticores will hide out of line of sight from turn 1, and use vengence of cadia to pound them into bit (might take more than one turn, but you can't target his Manticores anyway).
Admech: king of shooty. They have the firepower to take out the decimaters, and you can't destroy their firepower fast tnough before they take them out.
Drukhari: massed dark lances at 36 inches on transports that can fly... If they lose, they must be such a bad player.
Blood angels: With forlorn fury, he could probably tag the whole castle round 1, probably, with more flying melee troops following up from turn 2 onwards. If you keep them super far back with tons of fodder in front. He can still hide all his melee behind cover, then fly over and tag you when you move up to within charge range.
Space marines in general: Keep out of shooting range or out of line of sight, use small arms fire to destroy your fodder. Once your fodder is gone, charge in and tag your castle in close combat.
The terrain in your local meta probably matters too. If its very open, with not much to hide behind, they will probably be more effective. If its terrain heavy with lots of LOS blocking, then not so much. I am not trying to discourage you. But good players know how scary they are (and that they are basically a shooty castle), and will treat it as that accordingly. Only inexperienced players who don't know how much mortal wounds they can potentially pump out will walk right into their range and then lose badly.
macluvin wrote: Man I wish there was more talk about how to make our codex work in 9th edition... It’s kind of depressing. I know we all waiting for our 9e codex to drop...
Anyways adding 1-2 mortal wounds per soul burner per turn might be a good use of such an artifact. The bonus attacks don’t make more attacks though. If you could buff the attack roll or reroll 1s it would synergies even better.
Contemptors with volkite culverin guns.
Get 3 of them, or kitbash it.
Yes, your final CP count at the start of the game is dangerously low but they're literally one of the most best unit in the game right now, and a really good counter against things like DE raider spam or Morty/Deathguards (for mortal wounds).
Kebabcito wrote: I want to build some WE army to match with a patrol with Daemon Prince skullreaver, bloodthrister and 30 bloodletter boomb.
But I'm scared they renew the models (berzerkers, new terminators...) in 6 months and feth my army :(
Berserkers are pretty ugly models that look like they are tripping over themselves under the best of circumstances. Also the size of their hands... I recommend counts as bolt pistol chainsword/chain axe CSM tactical squad kits for the time being. Maybe even kitbash em with some Khornate iconography.
I used the new CSM sculpts with heads from AOS Skullcrushers and some other Khorne bits.
I also converted Red Butchers from the new terminator sculpts, I don't think they will release new Khorne terminators so you're probably pretty safe picking some of them up...
Can see more of them at: www.instagram.com/first.amongst.traitors
I put a Master of Executions in a Dreadclaw and was able to get a charge through Breachable terrain (to avoid Overwatch) with a Character Knight Magaera.
I did like, 7 wounds between Black-Clad Brute's Mortals and normal choppy axe.
That... is a decent shout, I guess. If I had the CP to VotLW we may have seen a BRACKETED knight!
Those conversions are bonkers amazing. Like if I had more money and space I would be begging you for a how to video...there’s your tactics right there. Put those on the table and watch your opponent contemplate shooting such gorgeous masterpieces off the table and ultimately fail... he knows that the blood and skulls must flow.
I am kinda curious about something. We have seen how amazing Contemptor dreadnaughts with volkites are. So, has anyone tried putting together an shooty list with three such contemptors ?
Like maybe an Iron Warriors list or a black legion list with Abbadon giving full rerolls to make those Contemptor Dreadnaughts even more crazy? And CSM still has that fire frenzy strategem right? Does that work on Contemptors? (I don't have a single Contemptor so I really can't tell how this would be in an actual combat).
But like, maybe a list with 3 Contemptors, 3 squads of Havocs, etc? It would be fragile, but we can hide behind obscuring cover. When we jump out, with Cacophony. Thats a ton of firing from just 6 units. And its 900 points? We can kit out the rest of the army to play the mission while still having a pretty shooty punch.
Abbadon giving full rerolls to 3 Contemptors sound rather spicy. And he would serve as a good counter punch unit as well for anyone who wants to come and mess with the Contemptors. lol
Eldarain wrote: IIRC it's unit name Helbrute not keyword for Fire Frenzy.
I see. Well, its still a massive amount of shooty output.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, I got excited and thought of a list. What do you think?
Black Legion Battalion.
HQ: Abaddon (warlord),
Council of traitors: Tzeentch sorceror with arch sorceror (prescience, weaver of fates, warptime) and
Dark Apostle with trusted warleader.
3 basic CSM troops.
2 units of raptors, 1 unit of 3 chaos spawn
3 Havocs squad (2 units with all lascannons, 1 unit with 2 reaper chain cannon and 2 heavy bolters).
3 Contemptor dreads with volkites
1 big squad of 10 terminators with lightningt claw and combi bolters.
So, The HQ including Abaddon will hang back with the Contemptors and Havocs initially to use shooting to soften up the opponent and eliminate dangerous threats. The Apostle will use illusionary sup to give all the Contemptors a 5++ invul. Sorceror will give one Havoc unit prescience and make the Terminator unit 4++ invul.
The terminator unit with lightning claws and combis will be a distraction carnefix. It goes up the midboard into cover to get a 1+ cover save and 4++ invul from the sorceror. Then it either shoots 40 shots every turn or/and charges into combat and slice and dice with all the lightning claws.
While the opponent is busy trying to handle all the shooting and the big termi block in the center. The 2 units of raptors, the spawn, and the 3 CSM squads and the dark disciplies will go and do stuff like scramblers, or raise banners or engage on all fronts.
Abaddon is giving full rerolls to all of the shooty units. But once the terminators need help, the sorceror will warptime his up to the midboard and he will do a surprise nasty counter charge into whatever is assailing the terminators.
The list starts with 10 cp, and the war leader Apostle helps add more CP as the game progresses. So, lots of CP for strategems like Cacophony or veterans of the long war. The contemptors themselves end up being a good distraction carnefix. with a 5++ invul from the Apostle, they are tankier, and the opponent will probably focus so much attention on killing them he doesn't target the havocs. So, hopefully the Havocs can survive long enough so that we can get a few turns of cacophony+veterans+precience going off on them. Add in full rerolls on all 6 units, I think they will too shooty to ignore, and yet by the time an opponent kills enough of the 6 units, their shooting would have done enough damage to the opponent's army.
The shooty deathball with Abbadon will actually move around. Except maybe first turn behind obscurring, once I come out, I want the best angles to shoot, so will keep on moving around while shooting. I want them to shoot this deathball anyway so that the rest of the army can play the mission. Its definitely not the tankiest deathball around, but it should be shooty enough such that by the time it gets cut down to size, it would have done an equal amount or more damage to the opponent in the process. Also, black legion has a strategem that allows rerolls of 1 to a CSM infantry unit. So, a Havoc squad can actually move out of Abbadons bubble (to get a better angle for shooting) and you can still stack prescience+cocophony+veterans on it to make it shoot twice, +1 to wound, +1 to hit and reroll 1s to hit to give a very nasty surprise to an opponent.
See the contemptors are great but I'm inclined to go back to the decimators in this situation.
I run volkite contemptors in my DG army but I can boost the AP and accuracy with ferric blight and a tallyman to get more wounds through and the S6 is good with the toughness reduction.
With Abaddon's rerolls on the contemptors you will get 2/3 two damage wounds through against MEQ but that drops off big time against anything with a better save or higher toughness. You are left with really just picking up the MWs.
I had a bit of a further think about the Decis, I think actually running them as Word Bearers is worth more than the exploding 6s from the IW trait. It means you can give the +1 to cast relic to the MOP and with the strat can almost guarantee you cast cursed earth while infernal power will go off on a 5.
The result is a moving castle of Lord Discordant and 3 Decimators, 48 wounds all with a 4+ invulnerable save hitting on 2s rerollings 1s and doing MWs on 2s rerolling 1s. The lord discordant and blood master are very good counter melee threats too.
The four Daemon engines regen a wound each turn and the MOP can also take Sacrifice and take a wound off the Disco Lord to heal a Decimator 3 wounds if desperate.
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [10 PL, 195pts]: Autocannon, Mark of Khorne
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Master of Possession [5 PL, 95pts]: Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, No Chaos Mark, Sacrifice, The Malefic Tome
+ Elites +
Decimator [9 PL, 180pts]: Mark of Khorne, 2x Soulburner petard
Decimator [9 PL, 180pts]: Mark of Khorne, 2x Soulburner petard
Decimator [9 PL, 180pts]: Mark of Khorne, 2x Soulburner petard
Mutilators [5 PL, 105pts]: Mark of Khorne
. 3x Mutilator: 3x Fleshmetal weapons
Terminators [16 PL, 231pts]: Icon of Wrath, Mark of Khorne
. Terminator: Combi-melta, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-melta, Power axe
. Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power axe
. Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power axe
. Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power axe
. Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power axe
. Terminator Champion: Chainfist, Combi-melta
+ Flyer +
Heldrake [8 PL, 150pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Khorne
So my FLGS is trying to get back into the swing of things. They're starting up a gaming night and only allowing 500 pt Patrols to play. That's a hard limit of only 1 patrol except for Knight players (they're still limited to 500pts).
My question to the community is- is it better to have a reroll of 1s from one of the lord type characters or the +1 to hit from prescience from a sorceror?
I'm planning on running Emp's Children since I can get noise marines as a troop choice. I figure that I'm limited to 1 HQ slot as a practical matter so which do I take? A lord or a sorceror?
I'm inclined to say lord as it's an aura buff rather than allocated to a single unit, it's not dependent on rolling and the lord is more survivable and more killy on his own
You have to consider that your troops are 1W and much more fragile than loyalist marines. You may be facing double the wounds of your army. Is your shooting really double the output of a pimaris? Dreadnaughts are probably the ideal thing to bring one of in a 500 point army because they can shoot, they are tanky and they can fight too.
Imagine if you face a loyalist 500 point army with a Redemptor dreadnaught, a hero, and the rest of the points in troops. That Redemptor alone could cause major problems, not even counting the 2W troops or the hero. Unfortunately, CSM don't have Redemptors in our army. We do have Hellbrutes though, which may be decent in a 500 point army.
Not sure if you should go that crazy on troops simply because our troops are inferior to loyalist marine troops (its a fact). 2000 point lists can have noise marines in them because they got a ton of other stuff to back them up. In a 500 point list where all you have are only noise marines, just not sure if that will be enough.
Oddly enough, I highly rate WE Berserkers for 500 point lists. I don't think that many 500 point lists have the firepower to pop a Rhino in 1 turn (unless they are very lucky). So, A rhino is 85 points? Pack it with 2 squads of Berserkers or 1 big squad and your Hero. Turn 1, zoom move advance the Rhino 12+d6 inches up the board and pop smoke. Turn 2, the Zerkers disembark 3 inches, move 6 and charge 2d6 inches. If the zerkers have icon of wrath they are reroll charges.
I am not sure there is much in a 500 point list that will survive being charged by zerkers, especially if you pop strategems on them (like Vets of the long war and stoke the nails and stuff). Its a lot tougher to pull off in a 2000 point matchup because those lists have the shooting to both pop the Rhino and kill the zerkers inside. In a 500 point match, there is a good chance if you pop smoke your Rhino doesn't even die. Then you can use the Rhino to also sit on objectives, or absorb overwatch while your zerkers charge in turn 2 and wreck face.
You can try and roll it out. Take your one squad of noise marines, have it shoot at a squad of 5 Primaris marines (10W) and see if it dies in one turn. (My bet is it doesn't). Then try it on Primaris in cover with a 2+ save. I bet even less will die. Now have a squad of zerkers charge that same squad. Roll out the dozens of attacks, with VOTLW. My bet is that the Primaris are toast. WE zerkers on the charge will kill just about anything in a list unless they have something that can make you fight last, or stop you from attacking first. Its just too many attacks because of hateful assault plus the WE trait plus fighting twice. (It they are imperium you get to add death to the false emperor into the mix which would make it even scarier).Throwing buckets of dice at something will solve most problems. lol
A hellbrute is cheap in points and can move 8 inches. Take a Hellbrute, a rhino, zerkers and a Hero. If you want 2 squads, you can make your hero have a jump pack and have him fly alongside the Rhino. Then go World Eaters and wreck face. The weakness of WE is to shooting, but a 500 point list can't pack that much shooting. So go for it is my advice. Or if you jiggle around the points, maybe you can forgo the hellbrute and instead pack 2 Rhinos with two squads of Zerkers and a Hero in your list. Turn 1, zoom up, pop smoke. If he cannot kill 2 Rhions at -1 to hit on turn 1, he gets hit by 2 squads of zerkers and a hero on turn 2. Pretty sure there are extremely few things that can survive a charge by 2 squads of zerkers and a hero. Turn 3, mop up and table him. Don't worry about scoring objectives and VP because your opponent will probably be dead by turn 3. If he is smart and placed his shooty unit well in his backline. Turn 3, get back into your Rhinos, zoom advance forward 12+d6 inches again. Then turn 4, disemback, charge and table him.
And you will then learn to love the nuances of melee combat after you play WE. Like newbies putting a ranged shooty unit 6 inches behind their frontline unit? You charge in, hack his frontline apart, then use the strategem "kill miam burn". Suddenly, instead of consolidating 3 inches, you consolidate 6 inches. Now his shooty unit is tagged in melee... lol Against newbies, you could possibly table them by turn 3 if they are inexperienced.
Endless cacophony might adjust for that what else is he dumping CP on anyways... unless he wants to deepstrike with terminators and get that sweet almost guaranteed charge... wait are sonic dreads still a thing?
I mean... can you excruciating frequencies and endless cacophony them? I feel like that would give you an amazing alpha strike. And I suppose if you'd like to VotLW them...
Because we are playing at 500pts we only start with 3 CP. After I gain another point I could use all three but then I would be reduced to 0 CPs for the rest of the turn.
Excruciating Frequencies and VotLW are each 1 CP. Endless Cacophony is 2 CPs.
Shooting twice with a 200pt unit in a 500pt match up just seems like an autowin to me lol. I'd blow your 4cp turn one personally, there'll be nothing left to spend your CP on after that.
You should be able to do about 300pts of damage with that sort of shooting...
Weird question (probably due to my brain having 8th and 9th rules intermingling), but can I have a legal, Matched Play list with a 1kSons Detachment, a Wordbearers Detachment AND a mixed Daemons Detachment?
I know the later lose Loci, etc... but if everyone is in their own detachments, is sharing the Chaos keyword enough to make the wider list legal?
Weird question (probably due to my brain having 8th and 9th rules intermingling), but can I have a legal, Matched Play list with a 1kSons Detachment, a Wordbearers Detachment AND a mixed Daemons Detachment?
I know the later lose Loci, etc... but if everyone is in their own detachments, is sharing the Chaos keyword enough to make the wider list legal?
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Weird question (probably due to my brain having 8th and 9th rules intermingling), but can I have a legal, Matched Play list with a 1kSons Detachment, a Wordbearers Detachment AND a mixed Daemons Detachment?
I know the later lose Loci, etc... but if everyone is in their own detachments, is sharing the Chaos keyword enough to make the wider list legal?
Legal, yes, so long as everything has the Chaos keyword.
Sure you could. And there is some use there I suppose depending on what your taking from each area. You could really spam the board with tzaangors and horrors and Bloodletters deep striking with tson terms and arhiman giving good psycic backup, word bearers giving almost garunteed psycic output and nasty possessed combos, and the deamons giving out greater deamons or heralds or what have you.
I would love to see the crazy list you come up with.
It would be Supreme Command for Magnus, a lean Patrol of Wordbearers for undeniable Death-Hex/Warptime, and most points in Daemons for a LoC and a lot of Horrors.
I actually got quite excited looking at Terrax drills. I wondered why people haven't used more than one typically. Then I realised they come close to 200 points. (190 with volkites). Its still 5 melta shots, volkite shooting, plus it transports 12 infantry. And it is 14W T8 to boot. Honestly, its tons better than a Land Raider unless you want to transport terminators. A LR is so much more expensive (over 300 points), and the shooting isn't much better (once you are in range). I think a Drill actually even fights better in close combat too! lol
Its a pity its so hard to get one because its a forgeworld model. Seriously, they need to relook at a Land Raider. Maybe remove its capacity to transport terminators so that it can only ferry normal infantry and it can then be pointed appropriately.
Land Raiders should be about a hundred points cheaper. Given the current Meta with all the stuff that can absolutely rip tanks to pieces in one round there's no reason for a Land Raider to be 300+ points.
Land Raiders are 285 PPM without optional equipment, not 300+ PPM. The only one that's that expensive is the Achilles, which is packing a 5++, 2 twin multi-meltas, and a Quad Launcher, and is 360 PPM. Agreed their overpriced though, but probably not by 100 points. They need their Assault Ramps back too.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Land Raiders are 285 PPM without optional equipment, not 300+ PPM. The only one that's that expensive is the Achilles, which is packing a 5++, 2 twin multi-meltas, and a Quad Launcher, and is 360 PPM. Agreed their overpriced though, but probably not by 100 points. They need their Assault Ramps back too.
Nah I think we really are in the realm of 100 points over. Probably more like 80. That is every Astarte's pattern type tank though in the game. Overpriced by 25% or more.
The land raider Proteus is 270 with a 5++. It costs a CP and you downgrade the twin heavy bolter for a single but it still seems much better value.
A blanket 5++ on all land raiders and assault ramps would possibly bring them all back into consideration
I'm looking at picking up a dreadnaught type unit. Comparing the Contemptor to the Helbrute I like the Contemptor more, even if it is more expensive point and $ wise.
I've never used either unit and would be interested in what others think of the 2 units. Any drawbacks (other than the 1 CP for the contemptor) or advantages that stand out? Which would you choose or does the mission matter?
Contemptors are definitely better than our Hellbrute right now. The only good thing Hellbrutes really have going for them is being cheap and having the fire frenzy strategem. Otherwise, they are much more inferior. Wait for the 9th ed codex and maybe they will get better. (hopefully).
I personally think helbrutes look cooler. And you can magnetize easily the weapon options... The tactical versatility of being able to magnetize all the options instead of having to buy them all for the contemptor is worth considering since each individual weapon is what, 20-30 dollars or so?
Once Hellbrutes get their -1 to all incoming damage rule there may be an argument for them over Contemptors, but right now Contemptors have that AND a 5++. Throw in the options of volkites with 16 shots at S6 AP0 D2 MWs on 6s or chainclaws doing flat D6 at S14 AP4 against vehicles and it's no contest.
The next question is where can I get the alternative weapons/arms? I looked at forge world and they don't offer much in the way of graviton cannons or volkite weaponry.
I kinda wonder if they will further adjust some points for CSM in the upcoming field manual. I mean, it doesn't look like our codex is coming out anytime soon. Making some points adjustments might be able to keep our faction interesting considering how each new 9th edition codex that comes out looks so OP compared to the old 8th editions codexes.
I mean, they went to such pains to nerf cultists with a 6+ armor save. Now, 20 man rangers that can be buffed to 3+ armor save (2+ in cover?), can basically pump out 80 shots in rapid fire and do up to 6 mortal wounds on top of all the wounds done ...
Reivax26 wrote: In a World Eaters list what is best to run along the Rhinos fast attack wise?
Bikers
Warp Talons
Raptors
Blood Slaughterers
Maybe even a Heldrake is on the table.
If it matters my Meta is Space Marine heavy with lots of mid range Melta
I think Raptors. Cheap and hit reasonably hard on the charge. Warp Talons if you want something that hits harder, but they are more expensive. The problem is they are all easy to kill. So, don't expect any to survive once they expose themselves and charge into combat. That's why I would advise Raptors cos they are at least cheap.
You could do that sure. But the two meltas will add to their cost. Like I said, the good thing about the raptors is that its cheap. Adding 20 points is reducing one of their pros.
If you are using them as a sacrificial type of unit to push onto an objective. You want to keep them cheap. Any kind of decent focus on them will kill them. The meta of 9th edition is that five 1W models will not survive long exposed out in the open to being charged or shot at.
But 5 Raptors are cheap, fast, and they still hit hard in close combat cos you are WE. So, say you start first. You fly a unit of 5 onto a midboard objective. You immediately apply pressure on the opponent. He has to either shoot them to death, or charge them with something. But to you, even if that squad dies, its cheap. Its not like losing a nearly 200 points lord discordant or flying demon prince.
Similarly. Say your opponent has 10 IG infantry or 10 rangers on an onjective. You charge in those 5 raptors, they got a ton of hits cos you are WE, they got a good chance of wiping that unit, plus now you have bodies on that objective. And again if your opponent responds by killing them, they are cheap, so its fine.
Its like playing chess. And your Raptors are a great unit that is cheap that you can use as a sacrificial piece you don't mind losing. Yet they can kill stuff they charge, and their mobility means you can surprise your opponent.
They move 12 inches, that gives them a big threat range. You can fly them midboard, keep them tucked behind some obscuring terrain. Then next turn, with a 12 inch move plus 2d6, they might even end up threatening something in enemy deployment zone.
Opponents often leave something cheap on a rear objective, like 10 cheap rangers or 10 IG infantry. You fly past his front line, get the charge in, kill that unit and now suddenly you are sitting on his rear objective and depriving him or easy primary points. Maybe he ends up reploying valuable assets back from his front line or valuable shooting just to remove you from that objective.
Don't just charge everything blindly in, even if you are WE. Our current CSM statline is too fragile for that. So, look at it like a chess game. Where you put in one or two sacificial units as bait, or to force a move, or to take away an objective, and the rest of your army gets into a better position (with keeping as safe as possible using terrain). Insist on playing with obscuring terrain on the board. There has to be enough of that.
Chaos Land Raiders are going down to 265 points with standard armament, according to a post on Warhammer Community.
Need to look at cost of other units to compare, but this still sounds too high. For 4 Lascannons and a Storm Bolter, 190 - 235 points seems like the right range. You're paying more for the transport capability of a unit that's rarely used as a transport.
1. 265 is better than 285, but its still expensive. Still, we are chaos, we are used to overpaying for stuff and 265 isn't bad what a raider can do as long as you don't actually plan on using it for deployment of units. I always run mine like a mobile gun bunker that typically has no one in it and I will take the 20 pts.
2. It's still overcosted as a transport vehicle. It used to be incredibly bad at its job back in 7th ed and before when you had firing arcs, weapons couldn't split fire, and you didn't want to move them. It's better now, no longer such a mess of design, but you still don't want to put anything in there. Rhinos can transport stuff cheaper, and anything the raider can transport but the rhino can't shouldn't be in the raider to begin with. So its lore use is still not able to be seen on the tabletop.
Still, with our book being old, we can really take advantage of this. I have used 2 raiders to good effect before, t1 start 1 raider on the table with a dark apostle and sorcerer of nurgle next to abaddon. Apostle makes it -1 to hit, abaddon and sorcerer make it very good at shooting. T2 the 2nd raider moves onto the table from reserves and the sorcerer casts miasma of Pestilence on it giving it -1 to hit as well, abaddon gives full rerolls, you have a good and effective fire platform there that can do a lot of work as long as you can keep those eradicators and drop pods of multi melta devs away lol.
still too expensive. If the 20pt drop really is across the board and includes the Proteus that might be something. 235pts + 15pts for the 5++ heavy armour
I love landradiers, such and iconic WH40k vehicle. Lowering the points is not going to fix them. They should be T9 to represent the old 14/14/14 (which was better than a knight armor) and their assault ramp should allow move and deploy units (they let the new primaries unit do that). Then leave it at 285, maybe 300 and it would be good. Now, they could make it 220 and I don't think I would field it (well not unless it was a fun-sie list) especially in light of the DE lists with all that dark lance.
xeen wrote: I love landradiers, such and iconic WH40k vehicle. Lowering the points is not going to fix them. They should be T9 to represent the old 14/14/14 (which was better than a knight armor) and their assault ramp should allow move and deploy units (they let the new primaries unit do that). Then leave it at 285, maybe 300 and it would be good. Now, they could make it 220 and I don't think I would field it (well not unless it was a fun-sie list) especially in light of the DE lists with all that dark lance.
I love Land Raiders too. But there might not be a way to make them work in 9th, even at a much lower points cost.
All the high S AP- weapons make their save too flimsy for the points. Maybe if they halved all damage, they would be worth it.
Well, its still a 20 points drop. Might be interesting to see if it could work. I remember playing against a space wolf list with a land raider with my Deathguard. Despite my PBC having entropy cannons, that landraider didn't die until turn 4 or 5. The player used obscuring terrain to hide initially and even when it was exposed, my PBCs wiffed hitting or wounding it. Toughness 8 means that dark lances and entropy cannons wound it on a 4 only.
I believe we are overpaying in points for the LR mainly because it can transport units in terminator armor. So, if we want maximum bang for our buck, we literally need to utilise that unique capability and transport terminators. The only problem is that that would immediately make the entire unit and its cargo a huge juicy target worth easily 500 points.
Its still gonna be tough. But well, who knows. Maybe some top GT player will suddenly make LR work just because of this? lol
Eldenfirefly wrote: I believe we are overpaying in points for the LR mainly because it can transport units in terminator armor. So, if we want maximum bang for our buck, we literally need to utilise that unique capability and transport terminators. The only problem is that that would immediately make the entire unit and its cargo a huge juicy target worth easily 500 points.
Its still gonna be tough. But well, who knows. Maybe some top GT player will suddenly make LR work just because of this? lol
Chaos Terminators have deep strike, which is arguably a better delivery system.
Maybe there's a deep-strike heavy list where it makes sense to start Terminators in a Land Raider. Dunno. But I wouldn't bet it's competitive.
So 99% of the time, it's points going to something noone needs.
Letting us strip the guns off of it would be helpful. A giant LoS blocking brick for sub 200 that holds a ton of berserkers/Chosen etc would be enticing.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I believe we are overpaying in points for the LR mainly because it can transport units in terminator armor. So, if we want maximum bang for our buck, we literally need to utilise that unique capability and transport terminators. The only problem is that that would immediately make the entire unit and its cargo a huge juicy target worth easily 500 points.
Its still gonna be tough. But well, who knows. Maybe some top GT player will suddenly make LR work just because of this? lol
Chaos Terminators have deep strike, which is arguably a better delivery system.
Maybe there's a deep-strike heavy list where it makes sense to start Terminators in a Land Raider. Dunno. But I wouldn't bet it's competitive.
So 99% of the time, it's points going to something noone needs.
Correct. Unfortunately, I believe part of the reason LR are so expensive is also because this special transport terminator ability is factored into its point cost. Other wise, it should just be the cost of a Rhino, plus its ranged weapons, plus a bit more for the added toughness and wounds and armor save. I don't disagree with you that deep strike is a very viable delivery system for terminators.
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Eldarain wrote: Letting us strip the guns off of it would be helpful. A giant LoS blocking brick for sub 200 that holds a ton of berserkers/Chosen etc would be enticing.
We kind of have that already. Its called the terrax drill.
Sure but that doesn't get the iconic tank on the board. I'm also starting to feel real uncertain about FW stuff. I own a ton of it but the future doesn't look bright for ongoing support.
Eldarain wrote: Sure but that doesn't get the iconic tank on the board. I'm also starting to feel real uncertain about FW stuff. I own a ton of it but the future doesn't look bright for ongoing support.
Sicarans, Contemptors, Deredeos and Relic Predators will always be superior to Codex options. I don't see them going into Legacy because of the crossover with HH, they want people buying them for games.
Spartans and Decimators too, not sure about their worth in 9th edition. As for the bigger tanks, I can't get my head around how they would fit into a list. Need lockdowns to end before I can form an opinion.
I have yet to think about Fire Raptors, I have one and haven't played it since the 2nd 8th edition FAQ. Would love to know everyone's thoughts, this is a unit that could make up for a few areas where CSM are lacking.
I dunno... Maybe a WE list that spams 3 landraiders with 6 squads of zerkers in them along with jumppack or terminator characters with no other vehicles. So all the vehicles are T8, 2+ saves. And everything else is infantry. (cheap CSM to hold objectives and cheap raptors to do secondaries or disturb tanks). It could work. Gives a WE list 12 lascannons... nothing to sneeze at. And you have to respect 30 berserkers, no matter what. You can save on bringing icons of wrath too because you will get that additional 3 inches from getting out of the LR. The zerkers will have a 9+2d6 threat range. Pretty awesome.
Alternatively, 3 Landraiders filled with 15 terminators with double lightning claws on all of them. Fill up the rest of the list with whatever. I mean, 15 double claw terminators charging into combat in the midfield sounds pretty awesome. And no matter what, 12 lascannons is pretty respectable too.
I mean, I understand that darklance spam and admech shooting is super lethal these days. But CSM is an 8th edition codex. I would take anything we can get right now. Maybe they can pop one LR for sure. But can they pop three? The idea of of smashing into enemy lines with 15 lightning claw terminators or 30 zerkers fills me with glee somehow.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I dunno... Maybe a WE list that spams 3 landraiders with 6 squads of zerkers in them along with jumppack or terminator characters with no other vehicles. So all the vehicles are T8, 2+ saves. And everything else is infantry. (cheap CSM to hold objectives and cheap raptors to do secondaries or disturb tanks). It could work. Gives a WE list 12 lascannons... nothing to sneeze at. And you have to respect 30 berserkers, no matter what. You can save on bringing icons of wrath too because you will get that additional 3 inches from getting out of the LR. The zerkers will have a 9+2d6 threat range. Pretty awesome.
Alternatively, 3 Landraiders filled with 15 terminators with double lightning claws on all of them. Fill up the rest of the list with whatever. I mean, 15 double claw terminators charging into combat in the midfield sounds pretty awesome. And no matter what, 12 lascannons is pretty respectable too.
I mean, I understand that darklance spam and admech shooting is super lethal these days. But CSM is an 8th edition codex. I would take anything we can get right now. Maybe they can pop one LR for sure. But can they pop three? The idea of of smashing into enemy lines with 15 lightning claw terminators or 30 zerkers fills me with glee somehow.
Try it and tell us how it works out : )
I like lascannon heavy lists, being able to shoot from a distance with full rerolls made 8th edition very fun for me.
But I understand ranged shooting in 9th needs to be geared more towards anti-infantry. If Chaos could run Crusader variants, that might make a difference. The problem is not necessarily the points, it's how to compliment what they bring. You're paying almost the cost of 2.5 Obliterators per Land Raider and I don't see them outperforming those guns.
FWIW, my lockdown project has been building a Deathwatch army. When it comes to shooting, you have endless options. They suffer from the opposite problem of CSM, to much good stuff makes it hard to find the right balance. Took me months to figure out where to start.
With CSM, I've always run skew lists. Seems like that's not a great option in 9th, which is why 3 LRs are probably not going to cut it. You'd need something to compliment the Berzerkers..
9th edition lists are no longer quite full gunline. There are a lot more obscuring terrain now on the board in many boards. And of course, objectives are a big thing in 9th edition, both primary and secondary. Some lists could be tabled down to the last man and still win.
Nowadays, there is a standard expectation that if both sides entire army cannot hide behind obscuring terrain on turn 1, that means the terrain was not set up well. (unless of course you are a horde army).
So, if you go first, it is quite possible to have nothing to shoot at, no matter how many guns you have. But of course, eventually, people have to move out onto the midboard for objectives and that's when the shooting starts.
This means that the ability to move long distances and still shoot effectively with lethal force is much more powerful than just the ability to shoot lethally at long range. Because most boards are set up with obscuring terrain, so things like raiders with the ability move so far and still shoot dark lances with a reroll are so much more powerful. Same for ironstriders who advance and shoot at full BS. These new powerhouse units can easily get an angle on even your units hiding behind obscuring terrain. Maybe you can still hide from them turn 1, but turn 2 onwards, its almost impossible to hide from them.
Its no longer the shooting gallery that 8th ed was. Long straight lanes of fire are now not quite so easy to find on a well set up board. There will still be some firing lanes, but the smart opponent knows how to move around them, and the smart shooty player needs mobile units that can get into position of those firing angles. This isn't to say that shooty lists don't exist. Admech is a great example. But their shooting isn't just stand there and keep firing out from a shooty Crawl castle anymore. Now, any 20 man ranger blob can suddenly pop strategems and wipe a unit off the table with small arms fire. Iron striders move advance and then obliterate a unit you thought was safely hidden behind obscuring. Admech is the evolution of the 9th shooty army.
Ah well, back to landraiders... lol My interest has been raised. I think I am gonna try and make LR lists today just to see if the point savings might mean something. lol
Eldenfirefly wrote: 9th edition lists are no longer quite full gunline. There are a lot more obscuring terrain now on the board in many boards. And of course, objectives are a big thing in 9th edition, both primary and secondary. Some lists could be tabled down to the last man and still win.
Nowadays, there is a standard expectation that if both sides entire army cannot hide behind obscuring terrain on turn 1, that means the terrain was not set up well. (unless of course you are a horde army).
So, if you go first, it is quite possible to have nothing to shoot at, no matter how many guns you have. But of course, eventually, people have to move out onto the midboard for objectives and that's when the shooting starts.
This means that the ability to move long distances and still shoot effectively with lethal force is much more powerful than just the ability to shoot lethally at long range. Because most boards are set up with obscuring terrain, so things like raiders with the ability move so far and still shoot dark lances with a reroll are so much more powerful. Same for ironstriders who advance and shoot at full BS. These new powerhouse units can easily get an angle on even your units hiding behind obscuring terrain. Maybe you can still hide from them turn 1, but turn 2 onwards, its almost impossible to hide from them.
Its no longer the shooting gallery that 8th ed was. Long straight lanes of fire are now not quite so easy to find on a well set up board. There will still be some firing lanes, but the smart opponent knows how to move around them, and the smart shooty player needs mobile units that can get into position of those firing angles. This isn't to say that shooty lists don't exist. Admech is a great example. But their shooting isn't just stand there and keep firing out from a shooty Crawl castle anymore. Now, any 20 man ranger blob can suddenly pop strategems and wipe a unit off the table with small arms fire. Iron striders move advance and then obliterate a unit you thought was safely hidden behind obscuring. Admech is the evolution of the 9th shooty army.
Ah well, back to landraiders... lol My interest has been raised. I think I am gonna try and make LR lists today just to see if the point savings might mean something. lol
I seriously want to know how that list works out.
In 5th edition, I ran a Berzerker Rush list, 30 of them piling out of Rhinos alongside a Daemon Prince and some Predators. Miss those days.
I also ran a Spawn rush list. 33 of them wandering up the board mindlessly, no saves but high T and tons of attacks. They were cavalry, meaning they could move 12" normally and 6" more in the movement phase. Because they were mindless, I had no control over where they went, always needing to go after the nearest enemy. But they tore everything up, a squad of 3 had more attacks than the Berzerkers.
The Spawn Rush list seriously outperformed the Berzerker Rush list. Might have lost 2 games with it, compared to losing about half my games with World Eaters.
This is really just to say: forget about whether the list is efficient or not. Skew lists are for having fun and trying ideas you would not normally explore. 3 Land Raiders packed with Berzerkers is probably something you want to record or at least take pictures of.
Elites: 1 squad of 5 double claw Red Butcher Terminators.
Fast Attack: Squad of 8 bikers, astates chain sword all. Champion has lightning claw.
Fast Attack: 2 units of 1 chaos spawn.
Heavy support: 3x Land Raiders with havoc launchers, combi bolters on all three.
Total: 2000 points.
So, we actually have options. We can run 2 LR with 4 squad of zerkers and 1 LR with the red butcher terminators and then put 2 zerker squads in strategic reserve. Or we can run 3 LR with 6 squad of zerkers and let the terminators deep strike in.
The thing about this army, is that we literally throw almost everything forward. Other than the two 23 point chaos spawn hiding behind on home objectives, The rest of the 1976 points of stuff are ALL going to be in the frontlines without exception.
Turn 1, the bikes will move 14 inches onto a midpoint objective, fire all their combi bolters (32 shots) into frontline chaff and charge anyone that is already on that midpoint objective they got their eye on. All 3 LR will make a normal move of 10 inches and let loose with all their guns. The idea is more to position themselves near or on midboard objectives and kill chaff and infantry rather than try and kill any enemy tank or heavy support. 3 LR has in total 12 combi bolter shots, 18 heavy bolter shots, and 3d6 havoc launcher shots for killing infantry. So, all these plus the bike combi bolter shots should clear quite a bit of any chaff so that our 2nd turn melee strike can reach the good tasty stuff. The jumppack lords will fly along behind the LRs.
Turn 2 is when all the charges happen. You can keep up to 3 zerker squads inside the LRs (if some survive) holding them for a turn 3 melee charge if there are less good targets in turn 2. Otherwise, the turn 2 hammer is 2 jump pack lords, the Red Butcher terminators and up to as many as 6 squads of zerkers and whatever is left of the bike squad. I would probably recommend keeping some zerker squads in reserve. It is unlikely you will have that many juicy targets to charge on turn 2 unless your opponent played like a total newbie.
The LR will just keep on shooting and block up the passages leading back our rare deployment zone for the rest of the game. Because there are literally only 2 spawn holding our entire back line. lol
Skew list, yes, but heck it seems fun ! lol
If, your opponent is more shooty than melee and rolled bad on shooting and failed to kill any LR, or he managed to kill only 1 LR and failed to kill much of the zerkers that spilled out. And if by turn 2, his chaff had already all been cleared out, so that all the melee charges go in ... well, he could conceivably be tabled by turn 3 if he is not careful. lol Because yeah, being charged by 2 killy chaos lords, 1 squad of red butcher terminators and 6 squads of zerkers... that is going to kill a heck ton of stuff! lol
This is all based on the rosy scenario of you going first and the opponent rolling like crap of course. lol
If you go second, things change a lot. It would then depend on a ton of things now, especially matchups. If you don't face a lot of anti tank that is effective against your T8 2+ save LR, then you can position your LR out in the open and brave the shooting. (I actually think if a Drukhari army doesnt bring that many dark lances, we can risk it, because they only have a 50% chance to wound). But if you think the shooting is going to devastating. Then start everyone behind obscuring if possible.
Then use the 8 bikes as a sacrificial unit to kill chaff, and take one midboard objective away from them if they are on it. While those serve as a distraction carnefix. The 3 LR will try to move up and again position themselves for the turn 2 zerker charge. Maybe push advance one of the LR aggressively forward and pop smoke with it to use it as yet another distraction carnefix. If you move your LR behind obscuring cover, into suitable places. You can keep on unloading zerker squads 9 inches and charging a mid point objective every turn to take it back and put obsec onto an objective.
With 6 squads of zerkers, you could literally keep on charging one or two obsec zerker squads onto an objective and kill whatever is on it and wait for the counter charge. You could keep that up for quite a few turns with six. lol
Now, if you run into a melee army that is even more killy than yours, then that's when this army transitions into a shooty first army. Keep the zerker squas in the LRs for counter charging. Stay away from the enemy and keep on firing with all 3 LR and the bikes. Deep strike the terminator into the backfield to force the enemy to deploy stuff backwards either to zone or to deal with them. Only charge in when you have softened them up enough and always gang up on them. While not quite as fast as Raiders, our LR move 10 inches. They can be surprisingly mobile if they want to play the stay away and shoot game. If your opponent doesnt have much shooting. Then every turn, you are shooting 12 lascannons shots, 44 bolter shots, 18 heavy bolter shots and 3d6 havoc launcher shots into him. That can make a dent if you keep that up for a few turns. lol
For secondaries. Take kill secondaries because this list wants to kill stuff. Your two jump pack lords don't cost you any VP if they die, so don't be afraid to take assasinate and have them aggressively fly over enemy lines to kill characters.
However, if you run into lists that have problem killing your LR, then take While we stand we fight on all 3 LR !!! I think engage on all fronts is very doable from turn 2 onwards. Because you will charging stuff into your opponent's halve of the board very often.
Don't take action secondaries. Spawn cannot do actions, and your zerkers are all in LRs. Plus they want to kill stuff, they got no time to waste on stuff like planting banners to stuff.
Domination is great for this list on 5 objective missions too. You have 6 obsec squads that love to charge in and kill stuff and be obsec.
BTW, this list just wants to kill all the infantry stuff and non vehicle stuff. The LRs with lascannons can take some shots at other vehicles. But in general, the list operate based on, if I kill every single one of your infantry, what you have left cannot hold objectives against my obsec and whatever vehicles left can be tagged anyway because the chaff is all gone.
Are there any advantages to not giving a daemon prince wings? The only one I can think of is the ability of Death Guard princes to be able to use plague spewers when they don't have wings. I'm asking since I have several without wings and want to know how best to deploy them, if I even should.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Are there any advantages to not giving a daemon prince wings? The only one I can think of is the ability of Death Guard princes to be able to use plague spewers when they don't have wings. I'm asking since I have several without wings and want to know how best to deploy them, if I even should.
Saving points. That’s about it.
Oh, can’t be targeted by stuff like Flakk Missiles.
Mainly saving points. But wings are not cheap, so its not a small consideration. It also depends on what you plan to do with your demon prince. If he is always going to be in the midst of your army and you don't plan to move him off on his own to do stuff, then wings probably aren't needed.
You will want him with wings if you plan to make like sudden moves to fly over enemy lines to assasinate an enemy hero.
I mean, assasinate is a secondary option which is sometimes taken. And a flying prince is a good hero assassin,
Or if your opponent has a very weak area in the rear or in the side. Sometimes, he may not be expecting a flying prince to suddenly fly over from the midboard, get a charge in, and now he has entirely lost an objective and he needs to redeploy stuff to deal with it. And he may not be able to.
So, stuff like that are considerations for flying demon princes. though they are situational and may not always come up.
So we getting 5ppm cultists and 14ppm chosen... I mean the cultist change is nice. Now you can fill your troops with cultists and use your csm squads as chosen but seriously did the chapter approved leaks draw any speculation on list building changes? Are 5ppm cultists now the best way to fill the obligatory troops slots?
I wouldn't say I didn't hope for more, but I will take what they give us. At least cultists are back to 5 points now. The Venomcrawler change is a nice one. If you take three, your list just got 60 points cheaper.
The chosen change means that if we go patrol + spearhead or patrol + vanguard or Patrol+outrider detachment. We can theoratically just bring one troops unit and then use Chosen to replace CSM in all other instances (assuming obsec is not important). Unless of course, Obsec IS actually more important, then its a mote point.
Like I mean, say we have two chosen units for holding back objectives instead of two CSM. In most situations, I think any units trying to attack rear objectives are usually not obsec anyway, so given chosen fight better than normal CSM, and now cost the same, we might as well have two chosen units for back objectives instead of two CSM squads. Unless we want to go for cheap and just use cultist squads. But actually, if we want cheap, we can just put a single chaos spawn near our back objective for 23 points ,hide it behind obscuring and can call it a day. Thats almost half as cheap as a 50 point cultist squad.
I think chosen are most viable if you don't get carried away with loading up on weapons.
Replacing a five man marine squad with a five man chosen squad and still restricting yourself on load outs in a similar fashion to the troop choice is probably best so you still have ablative wounds.
Taking all specials is just far too expensive and squishy. Terminators are much better for that.
Question about the Black Legion trait- If you have terminators advance and have a combi-bolter (Rapid Fire 2 weapon) do they get 4 shots or 2? Does the "Assault" designation take precedence over the Rapid Fire designation or does it supplement it? I could take this to YMtC but I thought I'd see what the Chaos community thought first.
Anybody notice a few interesting things regarding Daemon Engines in the TS points updates that could point to what's coming in the CSM codex?
Defiler goes to 165pts to match the DG codex. Standard
Heldrake goes from 150 to 165pts but the Hades autocannon no longer costs extra. This is interesting because the Heldrake is already WS3+ so if the only buff it receives is to its BS then you would think that would increase the value in the Hades option. I'm really hoping they've given it a boost in the melee department because at the moment it's so dissapointing! Personally I'd like to see it have more attacks. I think it should have two purposes, tagging vehicles or ripping up light infantry. If you give it too high damage or AP it becomes too good at actually hunting tanks. It should be a choice you make whether to do damage to infantry or harass big guns.
Maulerfiend stays at 140pts but now pays 10pts extra for the lasher tendrils. That doesn't seem too bad considering it goes to WS3+.
The Forgefiend is where it gets really interesting jumping from 85 to 110pts. The extra Ectoplasma is now 15pts and the Hades Autocannons have now become Heavy Hades Autocannons and are +25pts each. So triple plasmafiend goes from 145 to 155pts which again seems like a reasonable increase for the BS improvement.
The Hades version goes from 135pts to 160pts so it will be interesting to see what the 'heavy' upgrade brings to the Hades Autocannons!
Venomcrawlers go down to 110 pts. I cant believe they would get WS/BS 3+ like other daemon engines, sounds too good to be true. That would make them quite good.
p5freak wrote: Venomcrawlers go down to 110 pts. I cant believe they would get WS/BS 3+ like other daemon engines, sounds too good to be true. That would make them quite good.
Those points are for the pre-codex version, which has WS/BS 4+. CSM is not getting a codex for a whiiiile. Don't expect the current points to reflect future changes to stats/abilities.
There is a new rule in the Grand Tournament pack that allows us to field Heretic Astartes Lord of War for an auxliary detachment for just 1 CP !!!! (As long as our warlord is also Heretic Astartes warlord) I can field my Lord of Skulls in my CSM army for just 1 CP now ! I am so happy !!!!!
Eldenfirefly wrote: There is a new rule in the Grand Tournament pack that allows us to field Heretic Astartes Lord of War for an auxliary detachment for just 1 CP !!!! (As long as our warlord is also Heretic Astartes warlord) I can field my Lord of Skulls in my CSM army for just 1 CP now ! I am so happy !!!!!
Yeah, great change! Unfortunately any of our LoWs that aren't a KHORNE unit will still run you 2CP because of Martial Legacy. But that's another problem. 2CP is a lot better than 4CP. Now it's just a question of which are the best ones.
Has anyone tried out a list based on the dreadclaws and the latest faq?
I had this thought because with Faith and Fury, I can have Kharne, + exalted Champion w/ Violent Urgency (+1" to advance and charge rolls), and prodigeous use of banners of wrath (reroll charges) as well as using Kharn as an uber reroll mechanic for chosen with meltas and havocs with whatever.
I'm reasonably certain that 3x9 beserkers, with a 67% chance of charge success, plus up to 5 dreadclaws with a 39% chance of success, plus if I really wanted to... the characters, 2 chosen squads, and 2 havocs also with 39% chance to get into the fray, would give me 2 beserkers in, plus maybe 2 dreadclaws into mellee, and if I felt the need 2-3 of the other 6 also into mellee on turn 1. Might be unfun enough in a tournament to crush a few peoples dreams?
Is it viable?
Spoiler:
Kharn (rerolls for eveyrone within just 1")
Chaos Lord w/ Fist (reroll 1's at 6") w/ Powerfist
Exalted Champion (reroll wounds in melee at 6") w/ Powerfist and Violent Urgency (+1 to charge rolls at 6")
(all characters ride with the beserkers, 1 spot in each of their dreadclaws)
Art of War channel just had a match between a World Eaters list and an pretty good Space Marine army. The World Eaters army won. Mark Perry said he won a local RTT with that list too. World Eaters are interesting. They are cheap but super killy, so they trade well (as long as they can get the charge in). Souping in The Scourged renegade CSM faction in order to get fight last is brillant.
On a separate note, with Venomcralers now at 110 points each, they make a good distraction Carnefixes for World Eaters too. And you can spend just 1 CP to put in a Kytan or a Lord of skulls. World Eaters can make a pretty fluffy yet mean list. 3 Venomcrawlers, a LOS, 3 or 4 Rhinos with zerkers. That's a lot of armor to chew through and there's some dakka too and a lot of melee goodness. Tabletop tactic's Lawrence played such a list with a Kytan Ravagerin a recent battle report. Its a great list!
Hey everyone! Looking at adding some staying power to my Iron Warriors and I somehow missed that lightning claws on terminators are free. So my question to you all, how do we feel about 5 man squads of terminators, 4 with claw / bolter and 1 with claw / reaper? Chuck in an icon of rage for a grand total of 155.
Pretty multi purpose, decent melee with the charge reroll. Admittedly no potential for cacophony, I tend to blow that on my havocs anyway. Can deep strike. Reapers give me some shots which actually have an AP value (anyone else struggling to kill incubi in cover?). Thinking of running 2/3 units like this and using 3x10 cultists for my battalion.
Sappysid101 wrote: Hey everyone! Looking at adding some staying power to my Iron Warriors and I somehow missed that lightning claws on terminators are free. So my question to you all, how do we feel about 5 man squads of terminators, 4 with claw / bolter and 1 with claw / reaper? Chuck in an icon of rage for a grand total of 155.
Pretty multi purpose, decent melee with the charge reroll. Admittedly no potential for cacophony, I tend to blow that on my havocs anyway. Can deep strike. Reapers give me some shots which actually have an AP value (anyone else struggling to kill incubi in cover?). Thinking of running 2/3 units like this and using 3x10 cultists for my battalion.
Yup, terminators with a single lightning claw are great now. And probably the best version of equipped terminators for our CSM terminators.
How do chosen with lighting claws compare? You can only get 5 with claws, but you can take extra ablative wounds without losing claws. Per wound it's more expensive, but per claw it's cheaper. You could even take pairs of claws and use your ablative wound models for some Dakka. It will be much better with the new codex though...
On that front, do we think chaos will appear in the next round of 6 codices? I'm hoping for emperor's children to get their codex this year, but that could be pushing it. Although there is scope for a khorne and slaanesh codex in 9th, but perhaps just one.
Back to the current Dex - how do spawns rank up? I'm not a fan of the models, but love the idea of a horde of spawns taking a flank.
And how to raptors deal with 9th - speed and objectives are key, so these seem great. Being great models helps too. I haven't built any warp talons, but I got them impression they were inferior? (Again should get a lot better when the new Dex hits).
Well, I reserved the book of Charadon 2 already. Just have to see what kind of army this disciples of Balakor is. I don't really have Balakor yet though...
In the current (and previous) edition Spawns are decent in casual games.
Squads of 3 really won't hold up a flank in 2,000 point games. But they can do well (with some lucky random rolls) in 1,000 point games. Units of 1 Spawn are great at blocking deep strikers , objective camping, supporting melee, and just harassment.
Not sure how I feel about all of our rules across supplements and codices being reprinted in warzone charadon... it’s going to be a while
Before we see 2 wound chaos space marines and a new codex, isn’t it...
macluvin wrote: Not sure how I feel about all of our rules across supplements and codices being reprinted in warzone charadon... it’s going to be a while
Before we see 2 wound chaos space marines and a new codex, isn’t it...
You mean to tell me you won't be hitting F5 every few seconds next weekend to ensure you get the Limited Edition Charadon book 2???
macluvin wrote: Not sure how I feel about all of our rules across supplements and codices being reprinted in warzone charadon... it’s going to be a while
Before we see 2 wound chaos space marines and a new codex, isn’t it...
On the bright side this means CSM players don't have to buy the book unless you're really, really invested in Chaos Undivided with Belakor. In fact you shouldn't buy it. Do not buy this book
Without a new codex any supplement is going to be worthless... I really don’t think they should be marketing these releases to chaos space marines. In fact this supplement would have been cool potentially after the codex was released or like two years ago...
Man the chaos space marine codex is going to suck if this army of reknown is supposed to be an upgrade to the 9e codex... also get fethed Khorne daemonkin players, according to GW.
macluvin wrote: Man the chaos space marine codex is going to suck if this army of reknown is supposed to be an upgrade to the 9e codex... also get fethed Khorne daemonkin players, according to GW.
Why are you expecting Chaos Undivided support to benefit Khorne players
Zzzz. the new Disciples of Belakor has so many restrictions. Cannot take daemon engines, daemon princes, cult troops or named characters. Must take one of each god of deamons before we can take a duplicate daemon unit.
It seems easier to just run Belakor alongside the army without running it as disciples of Belakor.
Yeah, I think that disciples of belakor are in tough spot for chaos players, just any mono chaos daemons list do better without the update. But it's a good book for undivided csm players, as it seems to cover every subfactions from faith and fury, and vigilus ablaze.
Spreelock wrote: Yeah, I think that disciples of belakor are in tough spot for chaos players, just any mono chaos daemons list do better without the update. But it's a good book for undivided csm players, as it seems to cover every subfactions from faith and fury, and vigilus ablaze.
Ah yes a reprint of the old material... I feel like a 9th edition codex would be a way better book for undivided though. In fact without an updated codex or a significant amount of begging from your opponent to house rule your faction into a half decent army I feel like the loyalist space marine codex would be a way better book for undivided players. The restrictions in my opinion really snuff all the potential; I mean arguably the legion equivalent trait was objectively an upgrade to the alpha legion trait, the psychic discipline and strats are pretty decent and fun, and in an odd twist neuter some of the things that make space marines stupid to play against (rerolls and what not). This really could have been an awesome opportunity to allow Khorne daemonkin players to put what they wanted on the table, and it hardly would have broken the game to allow monogod DOB armies across all the gods. I suppose removing daemon engines was necessary because the daemon locii combined with other stupid buffs could have made some overpowered units, but dumping a bunch of buffs on daemonically fueled units was one of the ways chaos should arguably be able to be played. And now that the chaos space marine codex ground hog saw its shadow it seems like 2W chaos space marines along with all the other updates that could make our faction actually playable are further down the pipeline.
So... anyone has any thoughts about how a Disciples of Belakor list might work? lol I mean, its a straight up buff if you are running black legion... As long as you leave your demon engines and cult marines at home... lol
Eldenfirefly wrote: So... anyone has any thoughts about how a Disciples of Belakor list might work? lol I mean, its a straight up buff if you are running black legion... As long as you leave your demon engines and cult marines at home... lol
Only kind of list I think would work for Disciples is a BL gunline list... volkite contemptors, spammed havocs, oblits and terminators. Then for demons, you fling "teleport" via new shadow power every turn a large blobs of horrors, demonettes and bloodsletters. Although, flinging 9 flamers on first turn and using that stratagem to cause mortals on 6s is quite spicy.
Has anyone done the math on what you can get out of a possessed bomb list in a Be’lakor list? I mean the oblits seem to be the biggest benefactors but... I am simply not all that invested. All I know though is that daemon units that aren’t daemon engines are going to be the biggest winners via synergy of daemon locus and other buffs. Maybe a master of possession or two to really pump everyone up with cursed earth and what not...
macluvin wrote: Has anyone done the math on what you can get out of a possessed bomb list in a Be’lakor list? I mean the oblits seem to be the biggest benefactors but... I am simply not all that invested. All I know though is that daemon units that aren’t daemon engines are going to be the biggest winners via synergy of daemon locus and other buffs. Maybe a master of possession or two to really pump everyone up with cursed earth and what not...
Yeah, but the issue is that disciples of Belakor makes you take all 4 gods daemons units before you can run a duplicate. Truly competitive types of lists generally focus and specialise rather than spread themselves out amongst so many different unit types. I mean, tzeentch daemons are shooty, nurgle daemons are used to hold objectives, and slanaash and Korne daemons want to charge in and kill stuff. Being forced to mix all 4 if you want to run duplicates is just ... you end up with a jack of all trades army that doesnt know what it wants to do.
Right now, I am inclined to explore just the CSM side of a DOB army. We will see, maybe I might add on a daemon patrol just for specifically one or two units of daemon troops.
BTW, do we have to run Belakor in a DOB army? or can we not have Belakor? He is a big target that is easily killed in the current meta. Its probably better to not take him I feel. Honestly, once you take out the things that make combat daemon armies good, like advance and charge, and cult marines, it just doesn't seem to make sense to run a dedicated combat army, even if Belakor himself wants to charge in and fight.
I am thinking of maybe a triple volkite contemptor army with lots of shooting, and some cheap troops or raptors for doing objectives all over the board. Maybe even run a Nortilith crown as well to help with the casting of the new discipline psychics that some have a higher casting cost. I would use the sorceror near the crown as the core of a castle for sending out cheap troops for objective purposes.
macluvin wrote: Has anyone done the math on what you can get out of a possessed bomb list in a Be’lakor list? I mean the oblits seem to be the biggest benefactors but... I am simply not all that invested. All I know though is that daemon units that aren’t daemon engines are going to be the biggest winners via synergy of daemon locus and other buffs. Maybe a master of possession or two to really pump everyone up with cursed earth and what not...
Yeah, but the issue is that disciples of Belakor makes you take all 4 gods daemons units before you can run a duplicate. Truly competitive types of lists generally focus and specialise rather than spread themselves out amongst so many different unit types. I mean, tzeentch daemons are shooty, nurgle daemons are used to hold objectives, and slanaash and Korne daemons want to charge in and kill stuff. Being forced to mix all 4 if you want to run duplicates is just ... you end up with a jack of all trades army that doesnt know what it wants to do.
Right now, I am inclined to explore just the CSM side of a DOB army. We will see, maybe I might add on a daemon patrol just for specifically one or two units of daemon troops.
BTW, do we have to run Belakor in a DOB army? or can we not have Belakor? He is a big target that is easily killed in the current meta. Its probably better to not take him I feel. Honestly, once you take out the things that make combat daemon armies good, like advance and charge, and cult marines, it just doesn't seem to make sense to run a dedicated combat army, even if Belakor himself wants to charge in and fight.
I am thinking of maybe a triple volkite contemptor army with lots of shooting, and some cheap troops or raptors for doing objectives all over the board. Maybe even run a Nortilith crown as well to help with the casting of the new discipline psychics that some have a higher casting cost. I would use the sorceror near the crown as the core of a castle for sending out cheap troops for objective purposes.
According to goonhammer Belakor as the warlord is a restriction. Remember that heralds count as daemons as well. The only synergy is chaos space marine units with the daemon key word or else you are honestly better off running two separate detachments if you REALLY wanted to run daemons with your chaos space marine army. Between Be’lakor, greater daemons, daemon engines, and cult marines, you really don’t have much to play with in a competitive list. Possessed oblits and maybe warp talons or even... mutis? are all the chaos space marines that will benefit at all from the daemon part of the list. Unless you absolutely need nurglings and bloodletters in the same list as your chaos warband... oh spawn can synergies too but not sure what you are going to do with that info. And master of possession...
Well, the CSM units still benefit from DOB trait. They don't need to be daemon keyword. It would at least make the list building much easier because we can take multiples of CSM units if we want to. Like triple CSM Volkite Contemptors can be taken and will benefit from being DOB. CSM still retains Cacophony. And that psychic spell of the new discipline can be used to reposition a 3 man Obliterator unit for maximum carnage on turn 1. Like the Obliterator unit can be save behind obscuring terrain on turn 1, and then easily repositioned with that psychic for the double shoot and maximum damage.
Or at least chaos soup lists.
