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Eldenfirefly wrote:
I believe we are overpaying in points for the LR mainly because it can transport units in terminator armor. So, if we want maximum bang for our buck, we literally need to utilise that unique capability and transport terminators. The only problem is that that would immediately make the entire unit and its cargo a huge juicy target worth easily 500 points.

Its still gonna be tough. But well, who knows. Maybe some top GT player will suddenly make LR work just because of this? lol

Chaos Terminators have deep strike, which is arguably a better delivery system.

Maybe there's a deep-strike heavy list where it makes sense to start Terminators in a Land Raider. Dunno. But I wouldn't bet it's competitive.

So 99% of the time, it's points going to something noone needs.

Letting us strip the guns off of it would be helpful. A giant LoS blocking brick for sub 200 that holds a ton of berserkers/Chosen etc would be enticing.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I believe we are overpaying in points for the LR mainly because it can transport units in terminator armor. So, if we want maximum bang for our buck, we literally need to utilise that unique capability and transport terminators. The only problem is that that would immediately make the entire unit and its cargo a huge juicy target worth easily 500 points.

Its still gonna be tough. But well, who knows. Maybe some top GT player will suddenly make LR work just because of this? lol

Chaos Terminators have deep strike, which is arguably a better delivery system.

Maybe there's a deep-strike heavy list where it makes sense to start Terminators in a Land Raider. Dunno. But I wouldn't bet it's competitive.

So 99% of the time, it's points going to something noone needs.

Correct. Unfortunately, I believe part of the reason LR are so expensive is also because this special transport terminator ability is factored into its point cost. Other wise, it should just be the cost of a Rhino, plus its ranged weapons, plus a bit more for the added toughness and wounds and armor save. I don't disagree with you that deep strike is a very viable delivery system for terminators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:
Letting us strip the guns off of it would be helpful. A giant LoS blocking brick for sub 200 that holds a ton of berserkers/Chosen etc would be enticing.

We kind of have that already. Its called the terrax drill.

Sure but that doesn't get the iconic tank on the board. I'm also starting to feel real uncertain about FW stuff. I own a ton of it but the future doesn't look bright for ongoing support.

 Eldarain wrote:
Sure but that doesn't get the iconic tank on the board. I'm also starting to feel real uncertain about FW stuff. I own a ton of it but the future doesn't look bright for ongoing support.

Sicarans, Contemptors, Deredeos and Relic Predators will always be superior to Codex options. I don't see them going into Legacy because of the crossover with HH, they want people buying them for games.

Spartans and Decimators too, not sure about their worth in 9th edition. As for the bigger tanks, I can't get my head around how they would fit into a list. Need lockdowns to end before I can form an opinion.

I have yet to think about Fire Raptors, I have one and haven't played it since the 2nd 8th edition FAQ. Would love to know everyone's thoughts, this is a unit that could make up for a few areas where CSM are lacking.

I dunno... Maybe a WE list that spams 3 landraiders with 6 squads of zerkers in them along with jumppack or terminator characters with no other vehicles. So all the vehicles are T8, 2+ saves. And everything else is infantry. (cheap CSM to hold objectives and cheap raptors to do secondaries or disturb tanks). It could work. Gives a WE list 12 lascannons... nothing to sneeze at. And you have to respect 30 berserkers, no matter what. You can save on bringing icons of wrath too because you will get that additional 3 inches from getting out of the LR. The zerkers will have a 9+2d6 threat range. Pretty awesome.


Alternatively, 3 Landraiders filled with 15 terminators with double lightning claws on all of them. Fill up the rest of the list with whatever. I mean, 15 double claw terminators charging into combat in the midfield sounds pretty awesome. And no matter what, 12 lascannons is pretty respectable too.

I mean, I understand that darklance spam and admech shooting is super lethal these days. But CSM is an 8th edition codex. I would take anything we can get right now. Maybe they can pop one LR for sure. But can they pop three? The idea of of smashing into enemy lines with 15 lightning claw terminators or 30 zerkers fills me with glee somehow.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I dunno... Maybe a WE list that spams 3 landraiders with 6 squads of zerkers in them along with jumppack or terminator characters with no other vehicles. So all the vehicles are T8, 2+ saves. And everything else is infantry. (cheap CSM to hold objectives and cheap raptors to do secondaries or disturb tanks). It could work. Gives a WE list 12 lascannons... nothing to sneeze at. And you have to respect 30 berserkers, no matter what. You can save on bringing icons of wrath too because you will get that additional 3 inches from getting out of the LR. The zerkers will have a 9+2d6 threat range. Pretty awesome.


Alternatively, 3 Landraiders filled with 15 terminators with double lightning claws on all of them. Fill up the rest of the list with whatever. I mean, 15 double claw terminators charging into combat in the midfield sounds pretty awesome. And no matter what, 12 lascannons is pretty respectable too.

I mean, I understand that darklance spam and admech shooting is super lethal these days. But CSM is an 8th edition codex. I would take anything we can get right now. Maybe they can pop one LR for sure. But can they pop three? The idea of of smashing into enemy lines with 15 lightning claw terminators or 30 zerkers fills me with glee somehow.

Try it and tell us how it works out : )

I like lascannon heavy lists, being able to shoot from a distance with full rerolls made 8th edition very fun for me.

But I understand ranged shooting in 9th needs to be geared more towards anti-infantry. If Chaos could run Crusader variants, that might make a difference. The problem is not necessarily the points, it's how to compliment what they bring. You're paying almost the cost of 2.5 Obliterators per Land Raider and I don't see them outperforming those guns.

FWIW, my lockdown project has been building a Deathwatch army. When it comes to shooting, you have endless options. They suffer from the opposite problem of CSM, to much good stuff makes it hard to find the right balance. Took me months to figure out where to start.

With CSM, I've always run skew lists. Seems like that's not a great option in 9th, which is why 3 LRs are probably not going to cut it. You'd need something to compliment the Berzerkers..

9th edition lists are no longer quite full gunline. There are a lot more obscuring terrain now on the board in many boards. And of course, objectives are a big thing in 9th edition, both primary and secondary. Some lists could be tabled down to the last man and still win.

Nowadays, there is a standard expectation that if both sides entire army cannot hide behind obscuring terrain on turn 1, that means the terrain was not set up well. (unless of course you are a horde army).

So, if you go first, it is quite possible to have nothing to shoot at, no matter how many guns you have. But of course, eventually, people have to move out onto the midboard for objectives and that's when the shooting starts.

This means that the ability to move long distances and still shoot effectively with lethal force is much more powerful than just the ability to shoot lethally at long range. Because most boards are set up with obscuring terrain, so things like raiders with the ability move so far and still shoot dark lances with a reroll are so much more powerful. Same for ironstriders who advance and shoot at full BS. These new powerhouse units can easily get an angle on even your units hiding behind obscuring terrain. Maybe you can still hide from them turn 1, but turn 2 onwards, its almost impossible to hide from them.

Its no longer the shooting gallery that 8th ed was. Long straight lanes of fire are now not quite so easy to find on a well set up board. There will still be some firing lanes, but the smart opponent knows how to move around them, and the smart shooty player needs mobile units that can get into position of those firing angles. This isn't to say that shooty lists don't exist. Admech is a great example. But their shooting isn't just stand there and keep firing out from a shooty Crawl castle anymore. Now, any 20 man ranger blob can suddenly pop strategems and wipe a unit off the table with small arms fire. Iron striders move advance and then obliterate a unit you thought was safely hidden behind obscuring. Admech is the evolution of the 9th shooty army.

Ah well, back to landraiders... lol My interest has been raised. I think I am gonna try and make LR lists today just to see if the point savings might mean something. lol

Eldenfirefly wrote:
9th edition lists are no longer quite full gunline. There are a lot more obscuring terrain now on the board in many boards. And of course, objectives are a big thing in 9th edition, both primary and secondary. Some lists could be tabled down to the last man and still win.

Nowadays, there is a standard expectation that if both sides entire army cannot hide behind obscuring terrain on turn 1, that means the terrain was not set up well. (unless of course you are a horde army).

So, if you go first, it is quite possible to have nothing to shoot at, no matter how many guns you have. But of course, eventually, people have to move out onto the midboard for objectives and that's when the shooting starts.

This means that the ability to move long distances and still shoot effectively with lethal force is much more powerful than just the ability to shoot lethally at long range. Because most boards are set up with obscuring terrain, so things like raiders with the ability move so far and still shoot dark lances with a reroll are so much more powerful. Same for ironstriders who advance and shoot at full BS. These new powerhouse units can easily get an angle on even your units hiding behind obscuring terrain. Maybe you can still hide from them turn 1, but turn 2 onwards, its almost impossible to hide from them.

Its no longer the shooting gallery that 8th ed was. Long straight lanes of fire are now not quite so easy to find on a well set up board. There will still be some firing lanes, but the smart opponent knows how to move around them, and the smart shooty player needs mobile units that can get into position of those firing angles. This isn't to say that shooty lists don't exist. Admech is a great example. But their shooting isn't just stand there and keep firing out from a shooty Crawl castle anymore. Now, any 20 man ranger blob can suddenly pop strategems and wipe a unit off the table with small arms fire. Iron striders move advance and then obliterate a unit you thought was safely hidden behind obscuring. Admech is the evolution of the 9th shooty army.

Ah well, back to landraiders... lol My interest has been raised. I think I am gonna try and make LR lists today just to see if the point savings might mean something. lol

I seriously want to know how that list works out.

In 5th edition, I ran a Berzerker Rush list, 30 of them piling out of Rhinos alongside a Daemon Prince and some Predators. Miss those days.

I also ran a Spawn rush list. 33 of them wandering up the board mindlessly, no saves but high T and tons of attacks. They were cavalry, meaning they could move 12" normally and 6" more in the movement phase. Because they were mindless, I had no control over where they went, always needing to go after the nearest enemy. But they tore everything up, a squad of 3 had more attacks than the Berzerkers.

The Spawn Rush list seriously outperformed the Berzerker Rush list. Might have lost 2 games with it, compared to losing about half my games with World Eaters.

This is really just to say: forget about whether the list is efficient or not. Skew lists are for having fun and trying ideas you would not normally explore. 3 Land Raiders packed with Berzerkers is probably something you want to record or at least take pictures of.

Well, I do have one problem though. I got the 30 zerkers, but I only got 1 LR, not 3. lol

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, I do have one problem though. I got the 30 zerkers, but I only got 1 LR, not 3. lol

Join me in the 3 LR club brother!

Winning is optional (and unlikely) BUT the look on the opponents face when they block LoS to everything behind them is hilarious!

Well, here is a World Eaters List. Not sure how good it will be. But here's to the triple LR meme!!

World Eaters, Triple LR list!

WE Batallion with 1CP spent on gifts of chaos.

HQ: 1 Jump pack Chaos Lord, Goregather, violent urgency.
1 Jump Pack Chaos Lord, Demon Sword: Z'aall

Troops: 6 x 5 zerker squads, sword and axe

Elites: 1 squad of 5 double claw Red Butcher Terminators.

Fast Attack: Squad of 8 bikers, astates chain sword all. Champion has lightning claw.

Fast Attack: 2 units of 1 chaos spawn.

Heavy support: 3x Land Raiders with havoc launchers, combi bolters on all three.

Total: 2000 points.

So, we actually have options. We can run 2 LR with 4 squad of zerkers and 1 LR with the red butcher terminators and then put 2 zerker squads in strategic reserve. Or we can run 3 LR with 6 squad of zerkers and let the terminators deep strike in.

The thing about this army, is that we literally throw almost everything forward. Other than the two 23 point chaos spawn hiding behind on home objectives, The rest of the 1976 points of stuff are ALL going to be in the frontlines without exception.

Turn 1, the bikes will move 14 inches onto a midpoint objective, fire all their combi bolters (32 shots) into frontline chaff and charge anyone that is already on that midpoint objective they got their eye on. All 3 LR will make a normal move of 10 inches and let loose with all their guns. The idea is more to position themselves near or on midboard objectives and kill chaff and infantry rather than try and kill any enemy tank or heavy support. 3 LR has in total 12 combi bolter shots, 18 heavy bolter shots, and 3d6 havoc launcher shots for killing infantry. So, all these plus the bike combi bolter shots should clear quite a bit of any chaff so that our 2nd turn melee strike can reach the good tasty stuff. The jumppack lords will fly along behind the LRs.

Turn 2 is when all the charges happen. You can keep up to 3 zerker squads inside the LRs (if some survive) holding them for a turn 3 melee charge if there are less good targets in turn 2. Otherwise, the turn 2 hammer is 2 jump pack lords, the Red Butcher terminators and up to as many as 6 squads of zerkers and whatever is left of the bike squad. I would probably recommend keeping some zerker squads in reserve. It is unlikely you will have that many juicy targets to charge on turn 2 unless your opponent played like a total newbie.

The LR will just keep on shooting and block up the passages leading back our rare deployment zone for the rest of the game. Because there are literally only 2 spawn holding our entire back line. lol

Skew list, yes, but heck it seems fun ! lol

If, your opponent is more shooty than melee and rolled bad on shooting and failed to kill any LR, or he managed to kill only 1 LR and failed to kill much of the zerkers that spilled out. And if by turn 2, his chaff had already all been cleared out, so that all the melee charges go in ... well, he could conceivably be tabled by turn 3 if he is not careful. lol Because yeah, being charged by 2 killy chaos lords, 1 squad of red butcher terminators and 6 squads of zerkers... that is going to kill a heck ton of stuff! lol

This is all based on the rosy scenario of you going first and the opponent rolling like crap of course. lol

If you go second, things change a lot. It would then depend on a ton of things now, especially matchups. If you don't face a lot of anti tank that is effective against your T8 2+ save LR, then you can position your LR out in the open and brave the shooting. (I actually think if a Drukhari army doesnt bring that many dark lances, we can risk it, because they only have a 50% chance to wound). But if you think the shooting is going to devastating. Then start everyone behind obscuring if possible.

Then use the 8 bikes as a sacrificial unit to kill chaff, and take one midboard objective away from them if they are on it. While those serve as a distraction carnefix. The 3 LR will try to move up and again position themselves for the turn 2 zerker charge. Maybe push advance one of the LR aggressively forward and pop smoke with it to use it as yet another distraction carnefix. If you move your LR behind obscuring cover, into suitable places. You can keep on unloading zerker squads 9 inches and charging a mid point objective every turn to take it back and put obsec onto an objective.

With 6 squads of zerkers, you could literally keep on charging one or two obsec zerker squads onto an objective and kill whatever is on it and wait for the counter charge. You could keep that up for quite a few turns with six. lol

Now, if you run into a melee army that is even more killy than yours, then that's when this army transitions into a shooty first army. Keep the zerker squas in the LRs for counter charging. Stay away from the enemy and keep on firing with all 3 LR and the bikes. Deep strike the terminator into the backfield to force the enemy to deploy stuff backwards either to zone or to deal with them. Only charge in when you have softened them up enough and always gang up on them. While not quite as fast as Raiders, our LR move 10 inches. They can be surprisingly mobile if they want to play the stay away and shoot game. If your opponent doesnt have much shooting. Then every turn, you are shooting 12 lascannons shots, 44 bolter shots, 18 heavy bolter shots and 3d6 havoc launcher shots into him. That can make a dent if you keep that up for a few turns. lol

For secondaries. Take kill secondaries because this list wants to kill stuff. Your two jump pack lords don't cost you any VP if they die, so don't be afraid to take assasinate and have them aggressively fly over enemy lines to kill characters.

However, if you run into lists that have problem killing your LR, then take While we stand we fight on all 3 LR !!! I think engage on all fronts is very doable from turn 2 onwards. Because you will charging stuff into your opponent's halve of the board very often.

Don't take action secondaries. Spawn cannot do actions, and your zerkers are all in LRs. Plus they want to kill stuff, they got no time to waste on stuff like planting banners to stuff.

Domination is great for this list on 5 objective missions too. You have 6 obsec squads that love to charge in and kill stuff and be obsec.

BTW, this list just wants to kill all the infantry stuff and non vehicle stuff. The LRs with lascannons can take some shots at other vehicles. But in general, the list operate based on, if I kill every single one of your infantry, what you have left cannot hold objectives against my obsec and whatever vehicles left can be tagged anyway because the chaff is all gone.

Are there any advantages to not giving a daemon prince wings? The only one I can think of is the ability of Death Guard princes to be able to use plague spewers when they don't have wings. I'm asking since I have several without wings and want to know how best to deploy them, if I even should.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Are there any advantages to not giving a daemon prince wings? The only one I can think of is the ability of Death Guard princes to be able to use plague spewers when they don't have wings. I'm asking since I have several without wings and want to know how best to deploy them, if I even should.

Saving points. That’s about it.

Oh, can’t be targeted by stuff like Flakk Missiles.

Mainly saving points. But wings are not cheap, so its not a small consideration. It also depends on what you plan to do with your demon prince. If he is always going to be in the midst of your army and you don't plan to move him off on his own to do stuff, then wings probably aren't needed.

You will want him with wings if you plan to make like sudden moves to fly over enemy lines to assasinate an enemy hero.

I mean, assasinate is a secondary option which is sometimes taken. And a flying prince is a good hero assassin,

Or if your opponent has a very weak area in the rear or in the side. Sometimes, he may not be expecting a flying prince to suddenly fly over from the midboard, get a charge in, and now he has entirely lost an objective and he needs to redeploy stuff to deal with it. And he may not be able to.

So, stuff like that are considerations for flying demon princes. though they are situational and may not always come up.

Why do you even consider a CSM DP ? They are weak for 200 points, with wings and talons.

So we getting 5ppm cultists and 14ppm chosen... I mean the cultist change is nice. Now you can fill your troops with cultists and use your csm squads as chosen but seriously did the chapter approved leaks draw any speculation on list building changes? Are 5ppm cultists now the best way to fill the obligatory troops slots?

So this is all the changes for CSM (non including forgeworld) in the new Chapter Approved 2021.

Cultists -1 point.
Chosen -1 point.
Landraider -20 points
Venomcrawler -20 points.

I wouldn't say I didn't hope for more, but I will take what they give us. At least cultists are back to 5 points now. The Venomcrawler change is a nice one. If you take three, your list just got 60 points cheaper.

The chosen change means that if we go patrol + spearhead or patrol + vanguard or Patrol+outrider detachment. We can theoratically just bring one troops unit and then use Chosen to replace CSM in all other instances (assuming obsec is not important). Unless of course, Obsec IS actually more important, then its a mote point.

Like I mean, say we have two chosen units for holding back objectives instead of two CSM. In most situations, I think any units trying to attack rear objectives are usually not obsec anyway, so given chosen fight better than normal CSM, and now cost the same, we might as well have two chosen units for back objectives instead of two CSM squads. Unless we want to go for cheap and just use cultist squads. But actually, if we want cheap, we can just put a single chaos spawn near our back objective for 23 points ,hide it behind obscuring and can call it a day. Thats almost half as cheap as a 50 point cultist squad.

I think chosen are most viable if you don't get carried away with loading up on weapons.
Replacing a five man marine squad with a five man chosen squad and still restricting yourself on load outs in a similar fashion to the troop choice is probably best so you still have ablative wounds.
Taking all specials is just far too expensive and squishy. Terminators are much better for that.

Question about the Black Legion trait- If you have terminators advance and have a combi-bolter (Rapid Fire 2 weapon) do they get 4 shots or 2? Does the "Assault" designation take precedence over the Rapid Fire designation or does it supplement it? I could take this to YMtC but I thought I'd see what the Chaos community thought first.

It changes from Rapid Fire to Assault. So it becomes Assault 2, which does not get double shots, etc.

Anybody notice a few interesting things regarding Daemon Engines in the TS points updates that could point to what's coming in the CSM codex?

Defiler goes to 165pts to match the DG codex. Standard

Heldrake goes from 150 to 165pts but the Hades autocannon no longer costs extra. This is interesting because the Heldrake is already WS3+ so if the only buff it receives is to its BS then you would think that would increase the value in the Hades option. I'm really hoping they've given it a boost in the melee department because at the moment it's so dissapointing! Personally I'd like to see it have more attacks. I think it should have two purposes, tagging vehicles or ripping up light infantry. If you give it too high damage or AP it becomes too good at actually hunting tanks. It should be a choice you make whether to do damage to infantry or harass big guns.

Maulerfiend stays at 140pts but now pays 10pts extra for the lasher tendrils. That doesn't seem too bad considering it goes to WS3+.

The Forgefiend is where it gets really interesting jumping from 85 to 110pts. The extra Ectoplasma is now 15pts and the Hades Autocannons have now become Heavy Hades Autocannons and are +25pts each. So triple plasmafiend goes from 145 to 155pts which again seems like a reasonable increase for the BS improvement.

The Hades version goes from 135pts to 160pts so it will be interesting to see what the 'heavy' upgrade brings to the Hades Autocannons!

Hmm, interesting. For 160 points, the Hades version better be good! I have high expectations!

Venomcrawlers go down to 110 pts. I cant believe they would get WS/BS 3+ like other daemon engines, sounds too good to be true. That would make them quite good.

 p5freak wrote:
Venomcrawlers go down to 110 pts. I cant believe they would get WS/BS 3+ like other daemon engines, sounds too good to be true. That would make them quite good.

Those points are for the pre-codex version, which has WS/BS 4+. CSM is not getting a codex for a whiiiile. Don't expect the current points to reflect future changes to stats/abilities.

It might mean that when they go to 3+ they will be around 120-130pts tho rather than them going up from 130 in the new codex.

Now that Dreadclaws can release their riders the turn they arrive, I see some potential for a half decent list.

Probably won't change the meta-rankings but at least a playstyle that isn't shooting yourself in the foot.

Rihgu wrote:
Now that Dreadclaws can release their riders the turn they arrive, I see some potential for a half decent list.

Probably won't change the meta-rankings but at least a playstyle that isn't shooting yourself in the foot.

The question is: What's best to put in them? Chaincannon Havocs? Multi-melta dreads? Blocks of CSM or PMs to take and hold objectives?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
Now that Dreadclaws can release their riders the turn they arrive, I see some potential for a half decent list.

Probably won't change the meta-rankings but at least a playstyle that isn't shooting yourself in the foot.

The question is: What's best to put in them? Chaincannon Havocs? Multi-melta dreads? Blocks of CSM or PMs to take and hold objectives?

I was thinking 10 man CSM squads with 3 meltas/combi-meltas, myself. But I play Black Legion so can get full hit re-rolls...

There is a new rule in the Grand Tournament pack that allows us to field Heretic Astartes Lord of War for an auxliary detachment for just 1 CP !!!! (As long as our warlord is also Heretic Astartes warlord) I can field my Lord of Skulls in my CSM army for just 1 CP now ! I am so happy !!!!!