New assassin rules states that if your warlord has the keyword IMPERIUM you can unlock a special vanguard detachment with assassins OR use the special stratagem that allows you to spend 1 CP to field an assassin of your choiche ( provide that you have the 85 points required) .
Cypher is a funny dude that cost 80 points, so enjoy your Chaos Imperial Assassins
Eldarain wrote: You need a detachment that's only Fallen but yeah.
Nope, there's clearly staten in the codex that Cypher does not prevent the detachment were he is to gain the benefit of the Legion.
You can have an Iron Warriors detachment with him as warlord
ArcaneHorror wrote: I didn't know that the power axe was so good. thanks for telling me. As for the boltgun, I was thinking maybe I could have one hanging on the back with an arm attached. The arm could be cut down and the stump could be red to signify blood to show that it's a trophy from a kill. I really want to keep the primitive look of the model with minimal technology, so I think the trophy could be a good compromise between keeping that look while still showing that it's in 40K. As to the base, isn't it alright for bases to be larger than the standard one that comes with a model, just not smaller?
If you really didn't want to muck with the base model but still "give it a bolter", you could have one sitting at his feet with the ammo clip cut out, like he's run out of ammo, ejected the clip and is now charging at the enemy to smash them with the axe. There's no requirement for the model to actually be *firing* the bolter in your pose. It's a bit sneaky, but I mean it's not like you've given him a flail and said "oh this is a bolter".
I've never had an issue with people modelling with a slightly larger base - my Warlord is on a Terminator base instead of a standard marine base to ensure he stands out a little bit more (also the basing rubble I was using really didn't fit onto the standard base). Some people might pick, but really, if they're going to get excited about that, then are they really the kind of person you're going to enjoy a game with? I suppose there's potential to be within a distance of something measuring from a slightly larger base, but only by a mm or two... If someone wants to nitpick that "if he was on a standard base he'd be out of charge range", I'd agree, fail the charge and then never play them again.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I didn't know that the power axe was so good. thanks for telling me. As for the boltgun, I was thinking maybe I could have one hanging on the back with an arm attached. The arm could be cut down and the stump could be red to signify blood to show that it's a trophy from a kill. I really want to keep the primitive look of the model with minimal technology, so I think the trophy could be a good compromise between keeping that look while still showing that it's in 40K. As to the base, isn't it alright for bases to be larger than the standard one that comes with a model, just not smaller?
If you really didn't want to muck with the base model but still "give it a bolter", you could have one sitting at his feet with the ammo clip cut out, like he's run out of ammo, ejected the clip and is now charging at the enemy to smash them with the axe. There's no requirement for the model to actually be *firing* the bolter in your pose. It's a bit sneaky, but I mean it's not like you've given him a flail and said "oh this is a bolter".
I stuck a bolter to my CSM champ's arse, just under his backpack...
New assassin rules states that if your warlord has the keyword IMPERIUM you can unlock a special vanguard detachment with assassins OR use the special stratagem that allows you to spend 1 CP to field an assassin of your choiche ( provide that you have the 85 points required) .
Cypher is a funny dude that cost 80 points, so enjoy your Chaos Imperial Assassins
Its out of the picture, but you need an Imperium detachment to unlock the stratagems themselves.
So you need a detachment with cypher and 3 units of fallen if you want to do that.
Eldarain wrote: You need a detachment that's only Fallen but yeah.
Nope, there's clearly staten in the codex that Cypher does not prevent the detachment were he is to gain the benefit of the Legion.
You can have an Iron Warriors detachment with him as warlord
but your whole army have to share one faction key word and iron warriors dont have the imperium key word.
so its just about fallen and assassins.
Eldarain wrote: You need a detachment that's only Fallen but yeah.
Nope, there's clearly staten in the codex that Cypher does not prevent the detachment were he is to gain the benefit of the Legion.
You can have an Iron Warriors detachment with him as warlord
but your whole army have to share one faction key word and iron warriors dont have the imperium key word.
so its just about fallen and assassins.
Eldarain wrote: You need a detachment that's only Fallen but yeah.
Nope, there's clearly staten in the codex that Cypher does not prevent the detachment were he is to gain the benefit of the Legion.
You can have an Iron Warriors detachment with him as warlord
but your whole army have to share one faction key word and iron warriors dont have the imperium key word.
so its just about fallen and assassins.
They do share a keyword-Chaos.
but the assassins dont have the chaos keyword on their datasheet.
CHAOS/IMPERIUM/ELDAR do not count towards detachment keywords as of BigFAQ1.
Your army must share a common keyword (CHAOS). Each detachment within that army must share an additional keyword (LEGION/MARK OF CHAOS/ETC).
So until it gets FAQ'd, you can do the following:
Detachment 1 - Battalion (ALPHA LEGION) Detachment 2 - Vanguard (DEATH GUARD) Detachment 3 - Aux Support (FALLEN)
You then make sure to leave 85 reserve points in your list to spend the 1CP during deployment to buy in your assassin, and the fact he doesn't have a CHAOS keyword at that point is irrelevent, since keyword legality is checked before you roll for deployment.
CHAOS/IMPERIUM/ELDAR do not count towards detachment keywords as of BigFAQ1.
Your army must share a common keyword (CHAOS). Each detachment within that army must share an additional keyword (LEGION/MARK OF CHAOS/ETC).
So until it gets FAQ'd, you can do the following:
Detachment 1 - Battalion (ALPHA LEGION)
Detachment 2 - Vanguard (DEATH GUARD)
Detachment 3 - Aux Support (FALLEN)
You then make sure to leave 85 reserve points in your list to spend the 1CP during deployment to buy in your assassin, and the fact he doesn't have a CHAOS keyword at that point is irrelevent, since keyword legality is checked before you roll for deployment.
This. Would love to add a Vindicare to csm/daemon brigades. Probably not top tier but marauder snipers don't cut it.
The new assassins stuff will be in the march white dwarf, but the rules have already been leaked. Yeah, you probably cant actually take a detachment for them, but the strat doesnt do anything detachment wise. It falls under the summoning idea where its there as reinforcements but doesnt effect your detachments for chapter rules.
I’m not sold on this just yet. It smacks of ‘glaring loophole that is absolutely not going to survive FAQ’. Come on, Cypher requisitioning a bunch of Assassins that don’t notice most of their side screaming HORUS WAS RIIIIIGHT? Do not spend any money on this if you don’t already have an Imperium army
I didnt say it was a good idea, just agreed it was legal. Besides its not like this would suddenly make cypher and fallen good or anything, just a funny thing you could do.
how would you win in a 1250p tournament?
which list would you play?
Im thinking about the usual berzerker battalion and a 2 sourcerer and 3 cultists battalion for more CPs to waiste and also warptime.
lindsay40k wrote: I’m not sold on this just yet. It smacks of ‘glaring loophole that is absolutely not going to survive FAQ’. Come on, Cypher requisitioning a bunch of Assassins that don’t notice most of their side screaming HORUS WAS RIIIIIGHT? Do not spend any money on this if you don’t already have an Imperium army
The Chaos Marines are fighting an enemy that the Assassins are after, and therefore avoid getting in the way?
I dunno. It could be done last edition though and literally nobody complained.
lindsay40k wrote: I’m not sold on this just yet. It smacks of ‘glaring loophole that is absolutely not going to survive FAQ’. Come on, Cypher requisitioning a bunch of Assassins that don’t notice most of their side screaming HORUS WAS RIIIIIGHT? Do not spend any money on this if you don’t already have an Imperium army
The Chaos Marines are fighting an enemy that the Assassins are after, and therefore avoid getting in the way?
I dunno. It could be done last edition though and literally nobody complained.
True, however in that edition, they’d have to be kept far apart. You wouldn’t want an Eversor rubbing shoulders with a Dark Apostle in a sea of Cultists. For all it’s soup shenanigans, there was structural drawbacks to such extreme ‘come the apocalypse’ alliances.
lindsay40k wrote: I’m not sold on this just yet. It smacks of ‘glaring loophole that is absolutely not going to survive FAQ’. Come on, Cypher requisitioning a bunch of Assassins that don’t notice most of their side screaming HORUS WAS RIIIIIGHT? Do not spend any money on this if you don’t already have an Imperium army
The Chaos Marines are fighting an enemy that the Assassins are after, and therefore avoid getting in the way?
I dunno. It could be done last edition though and literally nobody complained.
True, however in that edition, they’d have to be kept far apart. You wouldn’t want an Eversor rubbing shoulders with a Dark Apostle in a sea of Cultists. For all it’s soup shenanigans, there was structural drawbacks to such extreme ‘come the apocalypse’ alliances.
Outside deployment issues, rolling a 1 here and there wasn't something to be worried about, especially since Assassins aren't the types of units that live for a long time outside the Vindicare.
GW have had loads of time to fix soup, but they haven't, probably because it sells more models. I suspect if they faq'd assassin's it would be to explicitly allow chaos to take them. Then they open up chaos players to buying assassin models as well!
I am excited about the new shadowspear release but I kinda worry it might be just new models with limited new rules. Outside of the totally new Venomcrawler daemon engine, everything else actually already have rules. Just because it has a new model doesn't mean it will come with new rules.
We should at least get new formations at least though...
MrPieChee wrote: GW have had loads of time to fix soup, but they haven't, probably because it sells more models. I suspect if they faq'd assassin's it would be to explicitly allow chaos to take them. Then they open up chaos players to buying assassin models as well!
I wouldn't count on it. They've had years to let chaos use drop pods, multimeltas, plasma cannons, storm shields, thunder hammers, etc.. Only recently they created a named Black Legion chaos lord who wields a thunder hammer, but I'm not sure that's really a sign of a new philosophy.
I think Forge World are the worst offenders in this regard, but I think I'd better not *totally* derail the thread with my thoughts on the matter.
I think it's more likely that CSM won't be able to use the assassins at all, and buying them with the explicit hope of using them long term might not be the best move.
Yesterday I attended to a local tourney and I found a guy with this funny list, I would like to share it with you:
Outriders det.
1 termy sorcerer
3x spawns
2x oblits
3x renegades knights with double gatling.
He did quite well but he was stopped by a brutal dark eldar list with 9 talos, 3 jets and 3 ravagers.
My poor Huron Blackhearth list was wiped away by mono knights list :-(
Shadowspear "leaker" claims Obliterators are going up to 6 each. That means each squad of 3 is now shooting almost as much as four and half Obliterators would right now, and that additive strength is then probably multipled by the Cacophony you were already using on the squad.
If it's true, seems like a fair buff. Obliterators are kinda all-in, and also really inconsistent. This seems like a fair improvement, and 1 unit, perhaps even two, may actually become a competitive option now.
Adding in at least one unit of Oblits seems like a no brainer now. Of course, we also have to see if their points have gone up.
1) If the points cost of oblits haven't gone up at all, its christmas for us. The rest of shadowspear could be crap and it wouldn't matter.
2) Points cost went up, but Oblits are still reasonable for what they can now put out. Still a net win for us.
3) Points went up so much Oblits are almost unusable. Negative for us then.
And let's not forget about Formations. If there is one formation in there that allows us to reroll all 1s for everything (like the raven house Company of heroes strategem). Thats a huge boost to Oblits as well, because it means when we roll those d3 to determine our Str, AP and Dmg, we can reroll the 1s. Not to mention being able to reroll 1 to hit and 1 to wound.
Just one formation like that that can be applied to Oblits would make them so good. Suddenly, even if I had just one Oblits waiting to deep strike down, the opposing player would be sweating bullets because when it comes down, it will literally obliterate stuff!!!!
Well, considering the oblits are (rumored to) be units of 1-3 that are PL6 each, I'd say its safe to wager the price per model is going to skyrocket.
I'd wager its somewhere between 100 and 140 per model. my guess is leaning towards about 110.
If they are still good at the new price really depends on the finer details of the price itself, and what of the rumored changes is accurate.
N0tThatGuy wrote: People are also saying that they are gonna loose the INFANTRY keyword. This would explain the increase in number of shots.
Seriously? That would be so dumb. I mean, if they aren't infantry then what are they? Terminators are infantry, blightlords are infantry, so are mutilators. Its not like they are riding on some mount, or bike. What kind of justification would they have to not classify them as infantry? Even the daemons like bloodletters and horrors in the Chaos Daemon codex are classified as infantry...
Yeh seems pretty stupid to me too. I was just reporting some rumors. The main concern is that, since they got buffed pretty hard, there has to be a drawback or a HUGE point increase.
So the hypothesis is that there could be some gimmick that stops them from using Endless Cachophony. Just theories tho...
N0tThatGuy wrote: People are also saying that they are gonna loose the INFANTRY keyword. This would explain the increase in number of shots.
The only person to know anything is the guy who leaked the pages, who said nothing of the sort. People are speculating that this is maybe why, and now it's getting warped into "this is what's going to happen", just like what people did with things like "-1 to hits are all getting changed into cover saves!" etc.
It may happen, but let's be clear that it's just speculation and not confirmed in the slightest.
Could be that they’re losing INFANTRY to disqualify them from EC & VotLW? That would be a shame (and something of a tacit admission that Stratagems have thrown balanced pricing out the window)
if they are 105-110 they are as good as before, any more and they start looking worse. The 4th wound doesn't really help as much as you would think since they don't ignore damage. So any D2 weapon still two shots one and these are the guns that were hitting them. The T5 is definitely as boost though since overcharged plasma and dissintegrator canons now wound a pip less often. I really hope they aren't 120.
Chaos part of the update seems quite underwhelming. Marines on the other hand got really powerful scouts. Imperium is gona wreck dem enemy characters hard with those scouts and assassins.
Hmm... truth be told, the most interesting thing about new Oblits is them being able to look after themselves in a fight. I did just play a game where Intercessors managed to charge them, and these specs would have seen them get wiped out for their efforts. ...I’m not sure that I’d prefer to pay nearly twice as much for the unit for that capability, over just taking more Oblits, though...
...they may be no tougher against S6-7 D2, but they will be twice as robust against D3. That’s a fairly popular profile, especially amongst Armiger. ...again, this is not much better than just taking two units!
Speaking of the game I just played - on my first turn, that updated Vindicare took my Prescience Sorcerer’s head clean off. With LOS rules as they are, I’m struggling to keep heads down. What can we do about this thing? 85pts of invuln ignoring, mortal wounding, double tapping mischief.
Not Online!!! wrote: Sigh, have you seen the csm squad in the box?
What terrible equipment mixed in one squad....
That datasheet is only for the unit as it comes in the box, not for CSM in general. No one in their right mind would run them like that except in total soft narrative play. I'm just happy we're finally getting new models!
As for the Oblits, I hope they don't go through the roof in points cost. Vanilla Chaos Marines need to be thrown a bone right now, and this would be a good one. The Venomcrawler looks just as meh as the Dinobots (who admittedly are looking a lot better post-CA2018), so we'll have to wait until we see its point cost before rendering judgment. I'm not getting my hopes up since one of its abilities buffs summoning, which is a pretty weak game mechanic right now. Same with the cool-looking new character.
Red Corsair wrote: if they are 105-110 they are as good as before, any more and they start looking worse. The 4th wound doesn't really help as much as you would think since they don't ignore damage. So any D2 weapon still two shots one and these are the guns that were hitting them. The T5 is definitely as boost though since overcharged plasma and dissintegrator canons now wound a pip less often. I really hope they aren't 120.
97-98 points is the break even point for new vs old where damage efficiency is concerned, but if they're 6PL per, that's 101ppm at minimum, best case. 101ppm puts them close to existing damage efficiency, but still marginally behind. 105-110 is encroaching on 10% worse. And that's before looking at the survivability drop between T4/3W@65ppm vs T5/4W@97-120ppm. I haven't run any numbers on the survivability end of things since it's so variable (T5 is better vs S4/S5/S8 and beyond, 4W is better vs 3D weapons, but no better vs 2D, etc), but I'd eyeball that an extra point of toughness and additional wound probably isn't worth 35 or more points per dude.
They might have been feasible if they remained at 195, since their problems are 1) they're a suicide drop 2) random damage requires further buildaround in the form of CP re-rolls and potentially even Gaze of fate if you're running multiple squads, and 3) the mere existence of Vect/GSCVect renders Cacophony alpha strikes impossible.
When you're sinking 200pts into a unit that's not likely to survive the turn beyond the drop, it's unacceptable for it to not make its points back, and right now, they don't make their points back.
At 65, they had a chance at being competitive. At 100+, they're unequivocally worse than the versions we currently have.
Anyone else notice that the master of possession looks like a crappy sorcerer until you realize he is casting from a new set of spells? Whatever the Malefic Disciple is it could make him really good.
There are three ee ways to play obliterators that I know of:
Slaanesh: CP heavy buffs with VotLW and Endless Cacophony
They hardly benefit from Darmon keyword, but get 5+ FNP from Delightful Agonies.
Tzeentch: Low-CP consumption versatile units heavily relied on Daemonic allies for Flickering Flames (poor man’s VotLW), Gaze of Fate Reroll to get better AP/Damage, rerolls of 1 to wound from Daemonspark. Getting Locus also slightly increases their melee survivability as well as +1 to Inv saves from Weaver of Fates. I like these most, cause they usually provide best mileage by sticking around longer.
Khorne: Also low on CP consumption exploiting Crimson Crown relic for extra shoots on “6” to wound rolls. Buff to “Assault 6” gives more reliable bonus shots. And being khornate also synergies well with their new melee weapon. So they can DS, shoot and charge. Locus can give them reroll to charge, but it is usually highly impractical to make Khorne only detachments.
My friend tried to field the current version along the single squad of letters with quite positive results.
These are obliterators I think viable. Nurgle obliterators seem sturdy, especially with -1 to hit from miasma and alpha legion combined, but their damage output is way too unreliable. Although they fit well in Nurgle Heavy lists, which usually have very lackluster shooting phase.
With new stats and melee weapon they can benefit from Virulent Blessing and Fleshy Abundance and cost increase might make them viable for Reverberating Summons, but Nurgle armies usually have better things to buff and GUO is still questionable choice.
Bottom line: while new obliterators are more versatile they mostly buff combos that already good... which isn’t bad thing I guess.
I might continue to field two squads (slaanesh + tzeentch) , but if the point cost is too high will drop the slaaneshy ones, cause I already suffer from severe CP-deficit.
Nurgle obliterators seem sturdy, especially with -1 to hit from miasma and alpha legion combined, but their damage output is way too unreliable. Although they fit well in Nurgle Heavy lists, which usually have very lackluster shooting phase.
With new stats and melee weapon they can benefit from Virulent Blessing and Fleshy Abundance and cost increase might make them viable for Reverberating Summons, but Nurgle armies usually have better things to buff and GUO is still questionable choice.
They do benefit from locus of nurgle for +1D on 6, or on 5 with VotLW, and the fortification thingy can give them a 0+ save. They also help a lot for epidemius.
Also, how do you weaver of fate Tzeench obliterators? Unless the new datasheet allows them to take TS as a legion.
Infernal enrapturess can also now bring them back if they are slaanesh.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the other hand though, it really is some pretty serious firepower. A unit of three with endless, votlw and prescience kills a knight on average give or take a bit. Add in reroll 1s and a gaze of fate or command reroll on the strength, you get something like 20 wounds on a castelan with rotate and ion bulwark.
That is some serious support, but it is also some serious results.
I think the intention from GW was to run those Greater Possessed with a unit of normal Possessed to buff their strength. Too bad Possessed are kind of cabbage right now, playing second fiddle to Khorne Berzerkers. Maybe if you totally double down on your Daemonic CSM units (Possessed, Oblits, Daemon Engines) and run the appropriate HQs from Codex: Daemons (to get the Locus abilities) there might be a workable strategy, but I don't think it would be any better than anything Chaos is already doing.
I am hoping for interesting formation rules or new stratagems to spice up the offerings we are seeing for Chaos now.
The obliterators have already been nerfed enough that I have been working them out of my list prior to this point and I was hoping this release would give them a boost. Like many have mentioned, it is really going to come down to where their point cost falls. I wouldn't mind paying extra for more shooting since that meshes well with existing strats, but it is the cost of the new melee weapon, +1 T, and +1 W that has me worried since I don't really feel like those add a lot to what the obliterator typically does (drop, strats, unload, hope you don't get Vect, unload again, promptly die). Even in that role, you were at the mercy of random rolls for your weapon profile. You could have a re-roll in reserve (or 2 if you play Tzeentch) and this was still a pretty reasonable balancing factor since sometimes you just roll 1's and 2's and it is a lot of sad panda dakka.
The Venom Crawler is another wait and see unit. If it can be pointed out comparable to a dakka brute (so around the 120 mark) then I can see it having some potential. Having assault weapons lets it remain functional while it moves (one of defilers drawbacks) and its shooting strength being based on its strength stat opens up some options that are nice. The 10" move is useful, especially with Slaanesh or renegade advance and charge options, though has anyone seen how many attacks it is going to get? The only pics I can find have that bit cut off. I wonder if the Daemon God Locus will stack with the Locus of Power. Though with all the new sniping tools coming in to play, it is going to be trickier to keep those +1 str bubbles functional, especially from T3 heralds.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZergSmasher wrote: I think the intention from GW was to run those Greater Possessed with a unit of normal Possessed to buff their strength. Too bad Possessed are kind of cabbage right now, playing second fiddle to Khorne Berzerkers. Maybe if you totally double down on your Daemonic CSM units (Possessed, Oblits, Daemon Engines) and run the appropriate HQs from Codex: Daemons (to get the Locus abilities) there might be a workable strategy, but I don't think it would be any better than anything Chaos is already doing.
Yeah, the possessed are in a rough place and extra strength doesn't really change that. Their attack output being so swingy is one of their biggest problems. For 20 ppm, d3 attacks doesn't really cut it for an elite melee unit. I wouldn't mind swingy if it was a big risk/reward play, where a high roll put them well above the average of melee centric units, but 3 attacks is pretty standard for melee-centric units as far as I can remember. So at their best they are roughly equivalent to most other melee infantry and you still need to get them up the board somehow to boot.
ZergSmasher wrote: I think the intention from GW was to run those Greater Possessed with a unit of normal Possessed to buff their strength. Too bad Possessed are kind of cabbage right now, playing second fiddle to Khorne Berzerkers. Maybe if you totally double down on your Daemonic CSM units (Possessed, Oblits, Daemon Engines) and run the appropriate HQs from Codex: Daemons (to get the Locus abilities) there might be a workable strategy, but I don't think it would be any better than anything Chaos is already doing.
Agreed with all this. I love possessed but even at s7 with a herald and a greater possessed, the d3 attacks bites and the berzerker's fight twice ability outshines all the melee infantry. Berzerker's are squishy and I'm still figuring out how to keep them alive, but the possessed 5++ doesn't come into play without Weaver because no one is hitting them with ap -3 weapons.
The venom crawler is pretty meh. It's a maulerfiend with more but wimpier attacks. It'll need to be rather cheap to be worth it vs a fist+scourge helbrute. Because its cannons are unreliable on a bs 4+ model and it's summoning gimmick is a bad joke.
The obliterators will heavily depend on their final price, but with PL6 a pop things sound pretty bad. One nice thing I can say is that the new sculpts look better than the old ones. I think. Still look like gak, but the sculpt looks more competent
The greater possessed have potential, but unless the regular possessed have had their stats changed to equal those of their Horus Heresy counterparts, the aura will mostly affect itself, the odd daemon prince and maybe a heldrake.
If they aren't expensive I can see myself playing one or two, though.
For the master of possession - well he's a sorcerer with an invul, a new discipline and a very situational anti-psyker ability. Hopefully we won't pay through the nose and the powers will actually be good. Still can't believe GW actually graced us with a generic HQ.
Chainaxes on regular CSM sounds neat, but not enough to take any over cult marines. But more chainaxe bits means easier conversions for berzerkers!
rayphoton wrote: So..this is up for debate in our group and I want to make sure. daemon locus work on CSM with the deamon keyword?
So oblit and possessed etc etc can actually get bonuses from deamon locus abilities?
We thought that they couldn't...
That would make the 3 chaos players we have super happy
Yes it works so long as they have the Daemon key word and the related mark.
So a WE player that puts a greater possesed and a Herald of Khorne next to a unit of Oblits and give them +2 Str also the Greater Possesed would gain +2 Str, but the Hearled would only get +1 because he does not have the <LEGION> keyword.
Unless there are new formations or that new malefic psychic discipline in Vigilus helps, otherwise I still can't figure out how to make Possessed work. They are infantry that has to foot slog up the battlefield that cost 20 points per model.
And I can't really think of why I wouldn't just bring berserkers instead of Possessed if I wanted a melee meatgrinder. Cheaper with far more attacks. Equip the champ with a power fist, and you have a unit in berserkers that can put out tons of attacks plus a fair number of power fist attacks too. Possessed are hardier but thats not saying much. With the lethality of shooting in the army lists these days, they will die if any shooty unit focuses on them as well.
I really want possessed to work. Already intend to get shadowspear box set. But right now, I am just not seeing how they can work. Maybe you guys can tell me how you made them work in 8th edition.
Hey guys I’m considering a new army and was wondering how well a summoning style csm list would fair in itc missions? Setting aside a handful of points to summon in daemons for specific rolls
Eldenfirefly wrote: Unless there are new formations or that new malefic psychic discipline in Vigilus helps, otherwise I still can't figure out how to make Possessed work. They are infantry that has to foot slog up the battlefield that cost 20 points per model.
And I can't really think of why I wouldn't just bring berserkers instead of Possessed if I wanted a melee meatgrinder. Cheaper with far more attacks. Equip the champ with a power fist, and you have a unit in berserkers that can put out tons of attacks plus a fair number of power fist attacks too. Possessed are hardier but thats not saying much. With the lethality of shooting in the army lists these days, they will die if any shooty unit focuses on them as well.
I really want possessed to work. Already intend to get shadowspear box set. But right now, I am just not seeing how they can work. Maybe you guys can tell me how you made them work in 8th edition.
-Be Alpha Legion
-Bring 10 man squad of possesed.
-Bring Sorc/DP w/warptime.
-Pay 2 CP to move up both Sorc/DP and Possesed
-Move up possesed and Sorc/DP 9".
-Get First Turn.
-Move move up Sorc/DP and Possesed.
-Cast WT on possesed.
-Possesed are now 23" from where you deployed.
-Charge with extreme prejudice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Drdotts wrote: Hey guys I’m considering a new army and was wondering how well a summoning style csm list would fair in itc missions? Setting aside a handful of points to summon in daemons for specific rolls
6th Seed of LVO was a CSM that did just that I believe.
rayphoton wrote: So..this is up for debate in our group and I want to make sure. daemon locus work on CSM with the deamon keyword?
So oblit and possessed etc etc can actually get bonuses from deamon locus abilities?
We thought that they couldn't...
That would make the 3 chaos players we have super happy
Yes it works so long as they have the Daemon key word and the related mark.
So a WE player that puts a greater possesed and a Herald of Khorne next to a unit of Oblits and give them +2 Str also the Greater Possesed would gain +2 Str, but the Hearled would only get +1 because he does not have the <LEGION> keyword.
Or my juggerlord with black mace going to S10 with a herald and greater possessed!
-Be Alpha Legion
-Bring 10 man squad of possesed.
-Bring Sorc/DP w/warptime.
-Pay 2 CP to move up both Sorc/DP and Possesed
-Move up possesed and Sorc/DP 9".
-Get First Turn.
-Move move up Sorc/DP and Possesed.
-Cast WT on possesed.
-Possesed are now 23" from where you deployed.
-Charge with extreme prejudice.
Yeah, except you can do the same thing with berzerkers.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Unless there are new formations or that new malefic psychic discipline in Vigilus helps, otherwise I still can't figure out how to make Possessed work. They are infantry that has to foot slog up the battlefield that cost 20 points per model.
And I can't really think of why I wouldn't just bring berserkers instead of Possessed if I wanted a melee meatgrinder. Cheaper with far more attacks. Equip the champ with a power fist, and you have a unit in berserkers that can put out tons of attacks plus a fair number of power fist attacks too. Possessed are hardier but thats not saying much. With the lethality of shooting in the army lists these days, they will die if any shooty unit focuses on them as well.
I really want possessed to work. Already intend to get shadowspear box set. But right now, I am just not seeing how they can work. Maybe you guys can tell me how you made them work in 8th edition.
One - gimmicky - thing that might work would be Slaanesh or Nurgle soup.
Slaanesh Daemon characters and Feculent Gnarlmaws both have an Advance and charge aura.
I’ve had ok results using these alongside Warptime and Fiends to lock units in combat T1 with Defilers and Heldrakes and a DP. They’ve also got twice the resilience against Fabius Bile as 1W infantry, presenting a way to try to give them a permanent 2-4A. Do it in the enemy movement phase, and they can have had Delightful Agonies cast on them for even more resilience.
A lot of moving parts, sure, but 14+2D6” then charge is a distinctive advantage over Berzerkers.
As for the MoP’s 12” aura... meh. If I want to make psykers self-own, I take an Infernal Enrapturess. Malefic better have something that synergises getting close to shock troops and DTW... I’m anticipating DAEMON Astartes buffs and anti-psyker.
-Be Alpha Legion
-Bring 10 man squad of possesed.
-Bring Sorc/DP w/warptime.
-Pay 2 CP to move up both Sorc/DP and Possesed
-Move up possesed and Sorc/DP 9".
-Get First Turn.
-Move move up Sorc/DP and Possesed.
-Cast WT on possesed.
-Possesed are now 23" from where you deployed.
-Charge with extreme prejudice.
Yeah, except you can do the same thing with berzerkers.
Possessed don't die to a stiff breeze, which can be important.
Hey my dudes, I'm considering a minimum cost CP farm of Renegades and Heretics and was wondering what your thoughts and experiences were with them. I have 2 options that I'm thinking of.
Option 1 would probably just charge into the teeth of the enemy and eat bullets, or just focus on screening. Option 2 would obviously sit on a deployment zone objective. Do you feel like 170-200pts for 32 models and 5CP is a pretty good deal?
EDIT: I should also point out I'm considering using these guys instead of the usual cultists.
Assuming new oblis are 110 pts, they get ~15% tougher vs bolters. 25% squishier vs plazma, 10% squishier vs asscannons and loose 10% damage. But can be taken solo instead of squads of 3.
New obliz seem to be an unimpressive sidetrade bordering on nerf territory unless there's something else we don't know. Like a strategem that makes them shoot with the best weapon profile or something like this.
the_Jakman wrote: Hey my dudes, I'm considering a minimum cost CP farm of Renegades and Heretics and was wondering what your thoughts and experiences were with them. I have 2 options that I'm thinking of.
Option 1 would probably just charge into the teeth of the enemy and eat bullets, or just focus on screening. Option 2 would obviously sit on a deployment zone objective. Do you feel like 170-200pts for 32 models and 5CP is a pretty good deal?
EDIT: I should also point out I'm considering using these guys instead of the usual cultists.
Option one but with militia instead, why? Because militia Champions have sargents statline so they hit gak.
On option 2, why excactly waste points on the gl 's.
If you want to expand this i'd say make a brigade out of it with mortar Hwt squads, or stubbers, add in some single sentinels for Fa slots and command disciples for elites and you would be good to go.
Also on option 2 don't worry about voxes on 10 man militia squads, voxes only really pay off if you also field 2+ command squads with cmd voxes.
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koooaei wrote: Assuming new oblis are 110 pts, they get ~15% tougher vs bolters. 25% squishier vs plazma, 10% squishier vs asscannons and loose 10% damage. But can be taken solo instead of squads of 3.
New obliz seem to be an unimpressive sidetrade bordering on nerf territory unless there's something else we don't know. Like a strategem that makes them shoot with the best weapon profile or something like this.
Well you get brigades" cheaper " that's to say you actually don't because havocs exist for hs, and with for 4 ac they are probably a lot more dakka than single Oblits.
Ok, if I want a pure CP farm I'll go for 2x Renegade Commanders with 3x Militia Squads, absolutely barebones. I added the grenade launchers just because they were the cheapest option and it'd allow me to throw more dice downrange, but you don't think they're worth the points?
That's a TINY amount of points for an entire brigade and leaves 1418pts for the rest of the army.
Looking at their stats and rules again though, maybe sticking to a battalion with Abby and cultists would be better.
the_Jakman wrote: Ok, if I want a pure CP farm I'll go for 2x Renegade Commanders with 3x Militia Squads, absolutely barebones. I added the grenade launchers just because they were the cheapest option and it'd allow me to throw more dice downrange, but you don't think they're worth the points?
That's a TINY amount of points for an entire brigade and leaves 1418pts for the rest of the army.
Looking at their stats and rules again though, maybe sticking to a battalion with Abby and cultists would be better.
Wrong, enforcers are 30 pts, command squad disciples are 24 for 4 of them.
There are a few gems though in the r&H list, like 6 Hwt/ squad with Mortars, heavy Stubbers for 2 ppm, marauders ( No seriously marauders are a great unit) enforcers are also really good if you decide to field 50 Mutant blobs.
Thanks, I missed that. So swapping out the enforcers for command squads brings it down to 564pts, with 90 chump wounds, 12 character wounds and 18 sentinel wounds.
So do you think it'd be a good idea to add something like this to my main CSM force? This seems like a ridiculous number of models and command points for very cheap.
the_Jakman wrote: Thanks, I missed that. So swapping out the enforcers for command squads brings it down to 564pts, with 90 chump wounds, 12 character wounds and 18 sentinel wounds.
So do you think it'd be a good idea to add something like this to my main CSM force? This seems like a ridiculous number of models and command points for very cheap.
If you Plan a specific highly cp dependant build that lacks a footprint? Why not, milita is cheap if you points left you can buy them stuff, Sentinels are fairly good also when you need bit more dakka.
A specific highly CP dependent build? Not especially. I plan to mainly use Alpha Legion to infiltrate large squads of Noise Marines and Bezerkers, fly a Sorcerer and a DP forward to support, deep strike Obliterators, and have Abaddon with Cultists as a CP battery and objective taking. So I need the CP for infiltrate, VotLW, Endless Cacophony, etc.
the_Jakman wrote: A specific highly CP dependent build? Not especially. I plan to mainly use Alpha Legion to infiltrate large squads of Noise Marines and Bezerkers, fly a Sorcerer and a DP forward to support, deep strike Obliterators, and have Abaddon with Cultists as a CP battery and objective taking. So I need the CP for infiltrate, VotLW, Endless Cacophony, etc.
Well, two Newblits costs a little more than three Oldblits, have the same firepower, the unit takes 67% as much D2 firepower to delete but also takes 33% more D3 firepower to delete. That’s not terrible.
They also arrive at the same time as a shiny new D2 AP-2 unit that doesn’t care about the T5 boost and is almost impossible to prevent from getting a good round of shots it. That sucks. More so if you play garagehammer with Primaris fans.
They also present the option to increase the unit’s firepower by 50%, for something like a 60-70% price increase? That’s not actually all that bad, on a unit’s already a prime candidate for our three big buffs - Prescience, VotLW, and EC. It hereby becomes even more of a DA candidate, which really throws the D2 vulnerability out the window, and increases the chances of Vect burning off his CP only to see the unit survive with 4+1W into the next turn - leaving it with the same 12 shots we already consider worth using EC with.
On top of that, the unit - that drops in the enemy’s face to reach a choice target - gains the ability to leave a charger or tarpit with a broken nose, and maybe even fight off a screening unit that tries to entangle it.
This isn’t all that bad at all. I think I’m getting pretty stoked for these guys. Shame the gun base strength doesn’t benefit from Herald + GP, that would have really made the price hike (and descaling of all my Terminator kitbashes) easier to swallow.
Red Corsair wrote: if they are 105-110 they are as good as before, any more and they start looking worse. The 4th wound doesn't really help as much as you would think since they don't ignore damage. So any D2 weapon still two shots one and these are the guns that were hitting them. The T5 is definitely as boost though since overcharged plasma and dissintegrator canons now wound a pip less often. I really hope they aren't 120.
97-98 points is the break even point for new vs old where damage efficiency is concerned, but if they're 6PL per, that's 101ppm at minimum, best case. 101ppm puts them close to existing damage efficiency, but still marginally behind. 105-110 is encroaching on 10% worse. And that's before looking at the survivability drop between T4/3W@65ppm vs T5/4W@97-120ppm. I haven't run any numbers on the survivability end of things since it's so variable (T5 is better vs S4/S5/S8 and beyond, 4W is better vs 3D weapons, but no better vs 2D, etc), but I'd eyeball that an extra point of toughness and additional wound probably isn't worth 35 or more points per dude.
They might have been feasible if they remained at 195, since their problems are 1) they're a suicide drop 2) random damage requires further buildaround in the form of CP re-rolls and potentially even Gaze of fate if you're running multiple squads, and 3) the mere existence of Vect/GSCVect renders Cacophony alpha strikes impossible.
When you're sinking 200pts into a unit that's not likely to survive the turn beyond the drop, it's unacceptable for it to not make its points back, and right now, they don't make their points back.
At 65, they had a chance at being competitive. At 100+, they're unequivocally worse than the versions we currently have.
Your not factoring in the new assault profile. This is not me arguing with you about efficiency, just pointing out the fact you WILL pay for it regardless of opinions. It does have a use, but like a defiler I'd rather have them cheaper and focused on one battlefield task. So worse or not, I think your being a bit optimistic if you think they will be less then 105 points.
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MrPieChee wrote: I assume there is nothing stopping players using the existing obliteraters datasheet after the new sheet is out?
Normally you need to use the most up to date datasheet. That said, this mini dex is not a replacement, so unless the book specifically calls this out, I would bet you can run 3 units from the old sheet and 3 units from the new slate. I doubt it would last long though, a new codex is on the horizon.
Red Corsair wrote: if they are 105-110 they are as good as before, any more and they start looking worse. The 4th wound doesn't really help as much as you would think since they don't ignore damage. So any D2 weapon still two shots one and these are the guns that were hitting them. The T5 is definitely as boost though since overcharged plasma and dissintegrator canons now wound a pip less often. I really hope they aren't 120.
97-98 points is the break even point for new vs old where damage efficiency is concerned, but if they're 6PL per, that's 101ppm at minimum, best case. 101ppm puts them close to existing damage efficiency, but still marginally behind. 105-110 is encroaching on 10% worse. And that's before looking at the survivability drop between T4/3W@65ppm vs T5/4W@97-120ppm. I haven't run any numbers on the survivability end of things since it's so variable (T5 is better vs S4/S5/S8 and beyond, 4W is better vs 3D weapons, but no better vs 2D, etc), but I'd eyeball that an extra point of toughness and additional wound probably isn't worth 35 or more points per dude.
They might have been feasible if they remained at 195, since their problems are 1) they're a suicide drop 2) random damage requires further buildaround in the form of CP re-rolls and potentially even Gaze of fate if you're running multiple squads, and 3) the mere existence of Vect/GSCVect renders Cacophony alpha strikes impossible.
When you're sinking 200pts into a unit that's not likely to survive the turn beyond the drop, it's unacceptable for it to not make its points back, and right now, they don't make their points back.
At 65, they had a chance at being competitive. At 100+, they're unequivocally worse than the versions we currently have.
Your not factoring in the new assault profile. This is not me arguing with you about efficiency, just pointing out the fact you WILL pay for it regardless of opinions. It does have a use, but like a defiler I'd rather have them cheaper and focused on one battlefield task. So worse or not, I think your being a bit optimistic if you think they will be less then 105 points.
You're right on all counts, which is why these guys (at 100-105, best case) are looking virtually unplayable compared to the existing rules, and potentially catastrophically useless (if they go as far as 120).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You guys are insane. There are easy ways to make the Obliterators more durable already, and with the extra shots we have an excellent castle.
On top of that, trying to make the requirements to fill a Brigade with non-useless units became so much easier.
Assuming there's even a reasonable answer as to why you'd want a brigade of CSM, you're aware you can get a squad of autohavocs for 105, right?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You guys are insane. There are easy ways to make the Obliterators more durable already, and with the extra shots we have an excellent castle.
On top of that, trying to make the requirements to fill a Brigade with non-useless units became so much easier.
50% more shots for a more than 75% points increase.
I'm thinking of getting some Berzerkers, but if I do so, I want to replace their heads and maybe even some torsos with that of AOS' Blood Warriors and Wrathmongers. I don't like the current 'bunny ears' look of Berzerker helmets, and the vampire-esque head just looks silly.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I'm thinking of getting some Berzerkers, but if I do so, I want to replace their heads and maybe even some torsos with that of AOS' Blood Warriors and Wrathmongers. I don't like the current 'bunny ears' look of Berzerker helmets, and the vampire-esque head just looks silly.
Feel free to give me crap if I am wrong, but I really think this is a Forgebane scenario where the points/power in the mini codexes is from a year ago and like the Armigers, when a new codex hits later this year the costs will drop. It's a similar style box set, released about the same time as Forgebane. Just use this opportunity to pick up cheap oblits while they are useless in the short term
I am facing off against a Ynnari army of Eldar/ Harlis for the first time, anyone got advice on what the heck to bring? I got mostly world eaters, demons and Thousand sons to choose from. They'll be bringing all the usual best suspects of the army.
Red Corsair wrote: Feel free to give me crap if I am wrong, but I really think this is a Forgebane scenario where the points/power in the mini codexes is from a year ago and like the Armigers, when a new codex hits later this year the costs will drop. It's a similar style box set, released about the same time as Forgebane. Just use this opportunity to pick up cheap oblits while they are useless in the short term
I'm expecting this also. A new Chaos codex is likely at some point this year to consolidate all the new units etc that are being released and units like Oblits I wouldn't be surprised if they received a full overhaul.
I find it strange that they would sculpt them with normal weapons instead of some sort of "fleshmetal" cannon to represent their current rules if they were going to keep that going forward.. I could be wrong
Some pretty good looking spells in there! MoP seems like he'll make a very nice support character, either buffing daemon/engine heavy armies, or summoning in daemon sideboards (yay, not giving up a movement phase!).
Comboing a warpsmith and MoP (Cursed earth and Sacrifice) with a lord of skulls or kytan seems like it'd make for an extremely durable hammer.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You guys are insane. There are easy ways to make the Obliterators more durable already, and with the extra shots we have an excellent castle.
On top of that, trying to make the requirements to fill a Brigade with non-useless units became so much easier.
50% more shots for a more than 75% points increase.
Not worth it.
You forgot the extra wound and toughness and not being helpless in melee (which was an issue beforehand).
Sure, though. Not worth it.
Some pretty good looking spells in there! MoP seems like he'll make a very nice support character, either buffing daemon/engine heavy armies, or summoning in daemon sideboards (yay, not giving up a movement phase!).
Comboing a warpsmith and MoP (Cursed earth and Sacrifice) with a lord of skulls or kytan seems like it'd make for an extremely durable hammer.
I'm thinking you can make an argument for a Word Bearer Master of Possession as a summoner. Pop the strategem for your first attempt, and then summon again with this power.
I'm thinking you can make an argument for a Word Bearer Master of Possession as a summoner. Pop the strategem for your first attempt, and then summon again with this power.
4 times in 1 turn with the chaos demon stratagem to let a character summon a 2nd time. Once in move phase, once in psychic.
I'm thinking you can make an argument for a Word Bearer Master of Possession as a summoner. Pop the strategem for your first attempt, and then summon again with this power.
4 times in 1 turn with the chaos demon stratagem to let a character summon a 2nd time. Once in move phase, once in psychic.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You guys are insane. There are easy ways to make the Obliterators more durable already, and with the extra shots we have an excellent castle.
On top of that, trying to make the requirements to fill a Brigade with non-useless units became so much easier.
50% more shots for a more than 75% points increase.
Not worth it.
You forgot the extra wound and toughness and not being helpless in melee (which was an issue beforehand).
Sure, though. Not worth it.
Some pretty good looking spells in there! MoP seems like he'll make a very nice support character, either buffing daemon/engine heavy armies, or summoning in daemon sideboards (yay, not giving up a movement phase!).
Comboing a warpsmith and MoP (Cursed earth and Sacrifice) with a lord of skulls or kytan seems like it'd make for an extremely durable hammer.
I'm thinking you can make an argument for a Word Bearer Master of Possession as a summoner. Pop the strategem for your first attempt, and then summon again with this power.
A: the melee of a oblit is useless, so the same scenario happens as does with GK, paying more for something you are not going to use.
B. +1 W /T ok there is an argument to be made, problem there is that oblit killerweapons ( plasma, etc.) still take the same ammount of firepower to roast one.
Small arms is only the bolter that suffers against it and the firewarriors, lasguns remains the same.
So basically a negligible buff.
C: i get 50% more dakka on a fire and forget unit because Oblits mostlikely will not survive a full gameround, basically the stat that matters the Most on them, i pay however more then 2/3rds more now.
D: why field one oblit when I can field a havoc squad with autocannons? For the same price.
Summa sumarum Oblits got nerfed.
Also lol on fielding a brigade out of csm, if you need a brigade take R&H instead that has an actual usefull and effective hs slot that is cheaper and ignores los.
I'm thinking you can make an argument for a Word Bearer Master of Possession as a summoner. Pop the strategem for your first attempt, and then summon again with this power.
4 times in 1 turn with the chaos demon stratagem to let a character summon a 2nd time. Once in move phase, once in psychic.
Daemon strats only work on Daemon Codex units.
Only the ones that target a DAEMON are restricted to codex daemons. The summon strats target CHAOS CHARACTER and aren't restricted to daemon codex characters, provided you have a daemons detachment to unlock the stratagems.
You go ahead and take that "Autocannon" havoc team for 105 that will die to a cough turn one as soon as the game starts. The Obliterator on the other hand is guaranteed a deepstrike alpha regardless of opponent.
Hmm. I’m in the ‘cautiously optimistic, will field Newblits’ camp, and I’m not 100% sold on Malefic.
Incursion removes the Summoning penalty I never cared about (MW risk), makes somewhat redundant my Word Bearers Stratagem (though it would make summoning a PL17 GD somewhat less unreliable), and fails to add what made Summoning good in 6/7ed - deep strike and Summon. This MoP hasn’t got a jump pack or TDA. Can’t even take a fast mount. And you still need to budget Reinforcement Points and hope you don’t roll low. It does elevate Summoning’s usefulness, thing is it’s raised from ‘garbage’ to ‘unlikely gimmick’.
Sacrifice can put MWs on a character in an environment where Vindicares just got a buff and several sniper units are going to arrive. My regular opponent loves snipers. So, that’s only ever get used via Cultists from me.
Mutated Invigoration is exactly the sort of thing we need to make more expensive Oblits viable, but also has a significant chance of failing. When your Oblits die, it’s a wasted spell, unless you’re doing a full DEITY soup list. Interesting potential with Possessed, though.
Possession is the sort of thing where... everyone’s going to end up with a story about when Bjorn had torn through your lines, and you used a Chaos Familiar to Switch your now-useless MI for Possession, and killed Bjorn and his explosion killed Njal and a Lone Wolf. It’s completely pointless to actually give it to this character that can’t take a jump pack, TDA, Fiend, or Disc.
Cursed Earth could be decent with Tzeentch. Shame about the LEGION restriction. Unlikely that TS can take this guy, so to really leverage it you’ve got to cast it and the Tzeentch spell, which adds up to an unacceptable level of compound risk. Something’s going to get DtW’d or roll snake eyes. Taking the two is about redundancy, not supercharging.
Which brings me onto Infernal Power. This feels like something of a poisoned apple. IP + MI CAN make Oblits utterly lethal, BUT most of the time you’re not going to successfully cast BOTH. And if you fail to cast IP, and you don’t have a CL or DP pep-talking the Oblits, you’re not rerolling 1’s to hit. If you DO have a CL or DP nearby (and ‘nearby’ is a relative term for Word Bearers using our Legion Warlord Trait), then half of IP’s effect is redundant. Not sold on running forwards with the dinobots and Defilers, though - this isn’t a character I want within counter-charge distance, or dancing a jig in the open in a Sniper-rich environment. You will get a game where you cast both, and there’s no Vect/GSC to embargo VotLW-EC, and your opponent will forever be salty about CSM being broken.
I'll play the new oblits more often than the old, because I have only two painted and 115points are still easier to fit into a list than 195.
But I also agree that they're rather expensive compared to a Helbrute which is appropriately priced right now.
Hi everybody,
I always toyed with the idea to start a small chaos force, but I was put off by the old marines and the bad support for units like havocs etc. With the new chaos stuff at the horizon, I pondered about my options.
I was thinking Iron Warriors, because I like their fluff, you can go little infantry, and they are rather fast to paint
What are some (fluffy) strategies for Iron warriors? Things I thought about:
- Fearless cultist blobs
- DP with the Fleshmetall Relic
- Hellbrutes, Dakka- and Maulerfiends (the pricedrop made them viable, or so I heard)
Marking everything as Slaanesh (rulewise) gives me the most mileage for a shooty army, correct?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You guys are insane. There are easy ways to make the Obliterators more durable already, and with the extra shots we have an excellent castle.
On top of that, trying to make the requirements to fill a Brigade with non-useless units became so much easier.
Assuming there's even a reasonable answer as to why you'd want a brigade of CSM, you're aware you can get a squad of autohavocs for 105, right?
I was thinking about that as well, but a unit of 5 autohavocs is rather compearable to the new obliterator. Offense wise, the havocs have 2 more attacks but those attacks have rolled the equivalent of 1-1-2 on the obliterator's d3, which is almost the lowest than an oblit can go. Havocs have double the range, but oblit can deepstrike closer and has assault weapons so he can move and shoot. Defense wise, The havocs have 1 more wound but start degrading after the second, the oblit has one more toughness, better armor and an invul save and does not degrade until all the wounds finish.
Still I am not having a party for 115 pt of obliterators by any means, but the comparison is much closer than it looks.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You guys are insane. There are easy ways to make the Obliterators more durable already, and with the extra shots we have an excellent castle.
On top of that, trying to make the requirements to fill a Brigade with non-useless units became so much easier.
50% more shots for a more than 75% points increase.
Not worth it.
You forgot the extra wound and toughness and not being helpless in melee (which was an issue beforehand).
Sure, though. Not worth it.
Some pretty good looking spells in there! MoP seems like he'll make a very nice support character, either buffing daemon/engine heavy armies, or summoning in daemon sideboards (yay, not giving up a movement phase!).
Comboing a warpsmith and MoP (Cursed earth and Sacrifice) with a lord of skulls or kytan seems like it'd make for an extremely durable hammer.
I'm thinking you can make an argument for a Word Bearer Master of Possession as a summoner. Pop the strategem for your first attempt, and then summon again with this power.
A: the melee of a oblit is useless, so the same scenario happens as does with GK, paying more for something you are not going to use.
B. +1 W /T ok there is an argument to be made, problem there is that oblit killerweapons ( plasma, etc.) still take the same ammount of firepower to roast one.
Small arms is only the bolter that suffers against it and the firewarriors, lasguns remains the same.
So basically a negligible buff.
C: i get 50% more dakka on a fire and forget unit because Oblits mostlikely will not survive a full gameround, basically the stat that matters the Most on them, i pay however more then 2/3rds more now.
D: why field one oblit when I can field a havoc squad with autocannons? For the same price.
Summa sumarum Oblits got nerfed.
Also lol on fielding a brigade out of csm, if you need a brigade take R&H instead that has an actual usefull and effective hs slot that is cheaper and ignores los.
1. You know as well as I do that GKs have several other issues that are affecting them. They can get into melee just fine, and they simply pay too much for being able to everything so to speak. If Oblits could cast Baby Smite they'd probably be 20 points more expensive because GW.
Oblits were always more defensive when needing to melee. Now we can be ultra aggressive like when they had their Power Fists.
2. Plasma is a non-issue so I don't know why you bring that up. So outside super niche weapons, their durability did increase incredibly. Lascannons now have a super low chance to one shot, DD3 weapons now lack that 33% chance to kill one immediately, even Disintegrators wound slightly less. Not to mention the greater durability vs small arms.
3. Obliterators were never a unit that survives. This is a strange complaint, especially when those other "fire and forget" units aren't as offensive.
4. Havocs have much less resilience vs several different squads firing at it can't move and fire effectively whereas Oblits can go where they please, and lastly Oblits have protection via being able to hide and Deep Strike.
Even if havocs hide, they only achieve the same armor save as the obliterator already has in stock.
An oblit at 115 is expensive, but not crazy more expensive compared to the 5 autohavocs. Of course the havocs are getting a new box with potentially new guns soon so...
You go ahead and take that "Autocannon" havoc team for 105 that will die to a cough turn one as soon as the game starts. The Obliterator on the other hand is guaranteed a deepstrike alpha regardless of opponent.
Dakka is loaded with hyperbole.
If you think it's bad now, wait until they do update the codex and endless cacophony and veterans of the long war disappear or change entirely.
EDIT: The fact that someone brought up auto canon havocs thinking it boosted their argument is hilarious to me. It makes the new oblits look better if anything. You couldn't compare them in the past because oblits were a 3 minimum, so you HAD to spend 195 on them. Now with a single, I'd argue the opposite, why would you ever take auto canon havocs over a single oblit? He's more durable, and guaranteed to get ideal positioning and at least a volley off. It's not even close. In cover he has a 1+ 5++ and 4 T5 wounds compared to a 2+ on 5 T4 wounds that are susceptible to morale. They also lose shots as they take damage lol.
Not Online!!! wrote: 1. True but also part of their overpricing, or do you equip marine bodies out of your own will with power weapons?
2 non issue?
3.wrong Oblits, were used as long range support before, when they still had other weapons.
4. Havocs are also infinitely more easily hideable.
So you were saying?
1. It would depend the unit. Vanguard are variable (though still better with all Chainswords typically), Grey Knight Strikes and Interceptors are somewhat playable with Falchions and are held back by other issues in the codex, Berserker Marines always pay for the Chainaxe, etc.
2. Yeah, Plasma IS a non-issue. Other weapons are, but Oblits increased in durability to a few of those weapons.
3. Long range support? With all the two or three weapons you'd choose to use, all of which required you to be close? Lol k
4. If people can hide a Dread, they can hide an Oblit, which has an easier time peaking over terrain to shoot at units.
If Oblits are 115pts then Contemptor Dreads with Butcher Cannons are even more of a bargain. I think they’d be fair at around 80-85 points.
Malefic discipline, the only thing that helps Possessed is +1inv or reroll d3 attacks right? Hmmm, I’m not sure that’s enough to make them worth it. I do hope I’m not seeing some good combos or strategies.
Not Online!!! wrote: 1. True but also part of their overpricing, or do you equip marine bodies out of your own will with power weapons?
2 non issue?
3.wrong Oblits, were used as long range support before, when they still had other weapons.
4. Havocs are also infinitely more easily hideable.
So you were saying?
1. It would depend the unit. Vanguard are variable (though still better with all Chainswords typically), Grey Knight Strikes and Interceptors are somewhat playable with Falchions and are held back by other issues in the codex, Berserker Marines always pay for the Chainaxe, etc.
2. Yeah, Plasma IS a non-issue. Other weapons are, but Oblits increased in durability to a few of those weapons.
3. Long range support? With all the two or three weapons you'd choose to use, all of which required you to be close? Lol k
4. If people can hide a Dread, they can hide an Oblit, which has an easier time peaking over terrain to shoot at units.
Not Online!!! wrote: 1. True but also part of their overpricing, or do you equip marine bodies out of your own will with power weapons?
2 non issue?
3.wrong Oblits, were used as long range support before, when they still had other weapons.
4. Havocs are also infinitely more easily hideable.
So you were saying?
1. It would depend the unit. Vanguard are variable (though still better with all Chainswords typically), Grey Knight Strikes and Interceptors are somewhat playable with Falchions and are held back by other issues in the codex, Berserker Marines always pay for the Chainaxe, etc.
2. Yeah, Plasma IS a non-issue. Other weapons are, but Oblits increased in durability to a few of those weapons.
3. Long range support? With all the two or three weapons you'd choose to use, all of which required you to be close? Lol k
4. If people can hide a Dread, they can hide an Oblit, which has an easier time peaking over terrain to shoot at units.
3. Yes Lascannons and plasma cannons.......
Lascannons were bad at popping tanks, and small blasts were always awful outside specific units.
Not Online!!! wrote: 1. True but also part of their overpricing, or do you equip marine bodies out of your own will with power weapons?
2 non issue?
3.wrong Oblits, were used as long range support before, when they still had other weapons.
4. Havocs are also infinitely more easily hideable.
So you were saying?
1. It would depend the unit. Vanguard are variable (though still better with all Chainswords typically), Grey Knight Strikes and Interceptors are somewhat playable with Falchions and are held back by other issues in the codex, Berserker Marines always pay for the Chainaxe, etc.
2. Yeah, Plasma IS a non-issue. Other weapons are, but Oblits increased in durability to a few of those weapons.
3. Long range support? With all the two or three weapons you'd choose to use, all of which required you to be close? Lol k
4. If people can hide a Dread, they can hide an Oblit, which has an easier time peaking over terrain to shoot at units.
3. Yes Lascannons and plasma cannons.......
Lascannons were bad at popping tanks, and small blasts were always awful outside specific units.
You're really stretching here.
Says the guy suggesting a csm brigade in the first place.
Malefic666 wrote: If Oblits are 115pts then Contemptor Dreads with Butcher Cannons are even more of a bargain. I think they’d be fair at around 80-85 points.
Malefic discipline, the only thing that helps Possessed is +1inv or reroll d3 attacks right? Hmmm, I’m not sure that’s enough to make them worth it. I do hope I’m not seeing some good combos or strategies.
The reroll 1s to hit and to wound works as well. But to get all three means taking two MoP, one of whom will be getting up close to provide an DTW-able aura buff that a DP could be providing with barely any risk of failure
Some pretty good looking spells in there! MoP seems like he'll make a very nice support character, either buffing daemon/engine heavy armies, or summoning in daemon sideboards (yay, not giving up a movement phase!).
Comboing a warpsmith and MoP (Cursed earth and Sacrifice) with a lord of skulls or kytan seems like it'd make for an extremely durable hammer.
I foresee a second Forgefiend added to my collection in the not-so-near future
Malefic666 wrote: If Oblits are 115pts then Contemptor Dreads with Butcher Cannons are even more of a bargain. I think they’d be fair at around 80-85 points.
Malefic discipline, the only thing that helps Possessed is +1inv or reroll d3 attacks right? Hmmm, I’m not sure that’s enough to make them worth it. I do hope I’m not seeing some good combos or strategies.
The reroll 1s to hit and to wound works as well. But to get all three means taking two MoP, one of whom will be getting up close to provide an DTW-able aura buff that a DP could be providing with barely any risk of failure
(I’m not saying no)
Quite expensive though no?
Probably also need a Psyker for warptime and either renegades chapter or al for scout movement forwards.
Some pretty good looking spells in there! MoP seems like he'll make a very nice support character, either buffing daemon/engine heavy armies, or summoning in daemon sideboards (yay, not giving up a movement phase!).
Comboing a warpsmith and MoP (Cursed earth and Sacrifice) with a lord of skulls or kytan seems like it'd make for an extremely durable hammer.
I foresee a second Forgefiend added to my collection in the not-so-near future
I have 3 built and painted sitting on my shelf since 6th Ed lol. Finally time to dust them off
Malefic666 wrote: If Oblits are 115pts then Contemptor Dreads with Butcher Cannons are even more of a bargain. I think they’d be fair at around 80-85 points.
Malefic discipline, the only thing that helps Possessed is +1inv or reroll d3 attacks right? Hmmm, I’m not sure that’s enough to make them worth it. I do hope I’m not seeing some good combos or strategies.
The reroll 1s to hit and to wound works as well. But to get all three means taking two MoP, one of whom will be getting up close to provide an DTW-able aura buff that a DP could be providing with barely any risk of failure
(I’m not saying no)
Quite expensive though no?
Probably also need a Psyker for warptime and either renegades chapter or al for scout movement forwards.
Heh, my current ‘experimental gimmick’ list draft is a twenty Possessed + Advance-and-charge-aura Herald rushdown. Forgot Renegades get that for turning up. But! If I’m gonna muck around with Legions other than my WBs for it, I’ll be using EC. If they can tag a unit along with a Fiend, that’s a hellish situation for the enemy to be tied up in.
Malefic666 wrote: If Oblits are 115pts then Contemptor Dreads with Butcher Cannons are even more of a bargain. I think they’d be fair at around 80-85 points.
Malefic discipline, the only thing that helps Possessed is +1inv or reroll d3 attacks right? Hmmm, I’m not sure that’s enough to make them worth it. I do hope I’m not seeing some good combos or strategies.
The reroll 1s to hit and to wound works as well. But to get all three means taking two MoP, one of whom will be getting up close to provide an DTW-able aura buff that a DP could be providing with barely any risk of failure
(I’m not saying no)
Quite expensive though no?
Probably also need a Psyker for warptime and either renegades chapter or al for scout movement forwards.
Heh, my current ‘experimental gimmick’ list draft is a twenty Possessed + Advance-and-charge-aura Herald rushdown. Forgot Renegades get that for turning up. But! If I’m gonna muck around with Legions other than my WBs for it, I’ll be using EC. If they can tag a unit along with a Fiend, that’s a hellish situation for the enemy to be tied up in.
Alot of possibilities, still 20 posessed are what now in pts, don't have the ca Handy atm.
Malefic666 wrote: If Oblits are 115pts then Contemptor Dreads with Butcher Cannons are even more of a bargain. I think they’d be fair at around 80-85 points.
Malefic discipline, the only thing that helps Possessed is +1inv or reroll d3 attacks right? Hmmm, I’m not sure that’s enough to make them worth it. I do hope I’m not seeing some good combos or strategies.
The reroll 1s to hit and to wound works as well. But to get all three means taking two MoP, one of whom will be getting up close to provide an DTW-able aura buff that a DP could be providing with barely any risk of failure
(I’m not saying no)
Quite expensive though no?
Probably also need a Psyker for warptime and either renegades chapter or al for scout movement forwards.
Heh, my current ‘experimental gimmick’ list draft is a twenty Possessed + Advance-and-charge-aura Herald rushdown. Forgot Renegades get that for turning up. But! If I’m gonna muck around with Legions other than my WBs for it, I’ll be using EC. If they can tag a unit along with a Fiend, that’s a hellish situation for the enemy to be tied up in.
Alot of possibilities, still 20 posessed are what now in pts, don't have the ca Handy atm.
So 400 for the Possessed alone, about 100 for the Master of possesion, another 100 for a sorcerer, another 150 for CP in cultists and whatevs daemon support costs.
That's pricey..... 750 pts atleast, that said could get a enemy on the wrong foot with that.
Also decimators will profit from the Master of possesion, right?
Not Online!!! wrote: 1. True but also part of their overpricing, or do you equip marine bodies out of your own will with power weapons?
2 non issue?
3.wrong Oblits, were used as long range support before, when they still had other weapons.
4. Havocs are also infinitely more easily hideable.
So you were saying?
1. It would depend the unit. Vanguard are variable (though still better with all Chainswords typically), Grey Knight Strikes and Interceptors are somewhat playable with Falchions and are held back by other issues in the codex, Berserker Marines always pay for the Chainaxe, etc.
2. Yeah, Plasma IS a non-issue. Other weapons are, but Oblits increased in durability to a few of those weapons.
3. Long range support? With all the two or three weapons you'd choose to use, all of which required you to be close? Lol k
4. If people can hide a Dread, they can hide an Oblit, which has an easier time peaking over terrain to shoot at units.
3. Yes Lascannons and plasma cannons.......
Lascannons were bad at popping tanks, and small blasts were always awful outside specific units.
You're really stretching here.
Says the guy suggesting a csm brigade in the first place.
CSM brigades aren't bad. They simply take up too much room to run both Mortarion and Magnus, which are problem units as we know.
Not Online!!! wrote: 1. True but also part of their overpricing, or do you equip marine bodies out of your own will with power weapons?
2 non issue?
3.wrong Oblits, were used as long range support before, when they still had other weapons.
4. Havocs are also infinitely more easily hideable.
So you were saying?
1. It would depend the unit. Vanguard are variable (though still better with all Chainswords typically), Grey Knight Strikes and Interceptors are somewhat playable with Falchions and are held back by other issues in the codex, Berserker Marines always pay for the Chainaxe, etc.
2. Yeah, Plasma IS a non-issue. Other weapons are, but Oblits increased in durability to a few of those weapons.
3. Long range support? With all the two or three weapons you'd choose to use, all of which required you to be close? Lol k
4. If people can hide a Dread, they can hide an Oblit, which has an easier time peaking over terrain to shoot at units.
3. Yes Lascannons and plasma cannons.......
Lascannons were bad at popping tanks, and small blasts were always awful outside specific units.
You're really stretching here.
Says the guy suggesting a csm brigade in the first place.
CSM brigades aren't bad. They simply take up too much room to run both Mortarion and Magnus, which are problem units as we know.
You meant ahriman and dp's no?
And no a csm brigade is to expensive for Chaos to field.
I feel like the value of the Malefic discipline is being undersold a bit here. Cursed Earth is a really strong power when coupled with the god-specific powers we already have access to. Possessed with a 4++ and 5+++ (ideal because it's better against Damage 2 weapons) suddenly become very tough to kill.
This discipline can also make our Daemon Engines legitimately tough to remove. Vehicles with a 4++ have proven to be very effective in the Knight-meta. Triple Maulerfiends/Decimators/Venomcrawlers (depending on final points/stats) could be a really fun and deadly monster blob that charges around the table.
Hey my dudes, mind helping me decide which option to go with?
Tossing up between the following. (Alpha Legion)
- 3 min squads of marines with a combi bolter and autocannon, qualifying for a battalion. 231pts.
- 1 max squad of Havoks with a combi bolter and 4x autocannons, qualifying for a spearhead. 172pts
The latter would obviously give me less bodies, less CP, 1 more heavy weapon and more points to spend on Obliterators.
I need 1 CP to infiltrate Noise Marines, and I need 5 for my bloodletter bomb (deepstriking 30, plus 2 HQ, plus Banner of Blood). Then your usual VotLW/Endless Cacophony/Precience combo and other shenanigans like dark familiar (the strat that allows you to cast a power you haven't chosen). If I take the first option I'll have 18-6 CP, if I take the second 13-6 CP.
the_Jakman wrote: I need 1 CP to infiltrate Noise Marines, and I need 5 for my bloodletter bomb (assuming you can still pay CP to deepstrike them). Then your usual VotLW/Endless Cacophony/Precience combo and other shenanigans like dark familiar (the strat that allows you to cast a power you haven't chosen). If I take the first option I'll have 18-6 CP, if I take the second 13-6 CP.
the_Jakman wrote: I need 1 CP to infiltrate Noise Marines, and I need 5 for my bloodletter bomb (assuming you can still pay CP to deepstrike them). Then your usual VotLW/Endless Cacophony/Precience combo and other shenanigans like dark familiar (the strat that allows you to cast a power you haven't chosen). If I take the first option I'll have 18-6 CP, if I take the second 13-6 CP.
Not Online!!! wrote: Time to Dust mine off then, albeit i have only one with a Butcher and siegeclaw.
I'm a bit unsure about Butcher Cannons on Decimators. Not that the Butcher Cannons aren't good, but I'd rather have them on a Contemptor or Deredeo than a Decimator.
But then those wouldn't benefit from the MoP and unlike the Decimator start getting worse the more wounded they are.
Not Online!!! wrote: Time to Dust mine off then, albeit i have only one with a Butcher and siegeclaw.
I'm a bit unsure about Butcher Cannons on Decimators. Not that the Butcher Cannons aren't good, but I'd rather have them on a Contemptor or Deredeo than a Decimator.
But then those wouldn't benefit from the MoP and unlike the Decimator start getting worse the more wounded they are.
Sidenote, the Decimator has BS3+, so i see no reason to not support it, especially since i love mine.
That said, still a rather expensive model pts wise, (especially since the claws always need to pay for a Hellflamer...... )
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also Over in rumors, Oblits seem to be 115 pts / oblit.
Not Online!!! wrote: Time to Dust mine off then, albeit i have only one with a Butcher and siegeclaw.
I'm a bit unsure about Butcher Cannons on Decimators. Not that the Butcher Cannons aren't good, but I'd rather have them on a Contemptor or Deredeo than a Decimator.
But then those wouldn't benefit from the MoP and unlike the Decimator start getting worse the more wounded they are.
Sidenote, the Decimator has BS3+, so i see no reason to not support it, especially since i love mine.
That said, still a rather expensive model pts wise, (especially since the claws always need to pay for a Hellflamer...... )
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also Over in rumors, Oblits seem to be 115 pts / oblit.
Yeah, the Decimator is one of the best Daemon Engines you can take. The expensive claws would be better if they could burn people inside transports like they used to in previous editions.
Anyway, I need to find something new to use my 3d printed Chaos Ogryn Rockers as, since Obliterator isn't on the table anymore.
Not Online!!! wrote: Time to Dust mine off then, albeit i have only one with a Butcher and siegeclaw.
I'm a bit unsure about Butcher Cannons on Decimators. Not that the Butcher Cannons aren't good, but I'd rather have them on a Contemptor or Deredeo than a Decimator.
But then those wouldn't benefit from the MoP and unlike the Decimator start getting worse the more wounded they are.
Sidenote, the Decimator has BS3+, so i see no reason to not support it, especially since i love mine.
That said, still a rather expensive model pts wise, (especially since the claws always need to pay for a Hellflamer...... )
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also Over in rumors, Oblits seem to be 115 pts / oblit.
Yeah, the Decimator is one of the best Daemon Engines you can take. The expensive claws would be better if they could burn people inside transports like they used to in previous editions.
Anyway, I need to find something new to use my 3d printed Chaos Ogryn Rockers as, since Obliterator isn't on the table anymore.
Ogryn Berserkers + Valkyires make a good alpha strike that hurts.
Anyway, I need to find something new to use my 3d printed Chaos Ogryn Rockers as, since Obliterator isn't on the table anymore.
Hold out for a CULT OF DESTRUCTION/Mutilator formation/stratagem with the rest of the Vigilus stuff.
Mutilators are so damn close to being good right now.
Did you know you can jam 9 Renegades Mutilators + an Exalted Champ into a Dreadclaw? Neither did I until recently.
Get a big scary distraction-Thirster to tank your opponents AV so you can start the pod on the table and you can send those bad boys 15"+advance on T1, followed by 3" disembark into 4"+advance move into charge.
A good formation/strat will send them over the top.
Just to throw something else into the discussion. I know people are disappointed about the points. Heck I am too. However, I suddenly thought of something.
At 115 points per Oblit, and these can be taken as a unit of 1, AND they are decent at close combat now...
So, this means we can take a unit of 1 Oblit. Now this 1 Oblit is 115 points, and it can deep strike very very easily (because of its small footprint). Plus, the turn it comes down, it spits out 6 shots, and then it can immediately perform a charge. Make that 9 inch charge and you can now either tie up a shooty tank or beat down some backline objective troop which are probably kinda weak.
The tactical use of an Oblit has now increased due to us being able to take just 1. You got 95 points to spare. Take a unit of 1 Oblit. Suddenly its something opponent cannot ignore. Heck it can even be that crucial unit that gets you line breaker if you deep strike it in the back and your opponent just couldn't get rid of it (or didn't bother to). And at 115 points, its cheap enough you wouldn't exactly cry if you lost it. The old termicide used to be the same points. You can't even get a squad of chaos terminators these days as a throwaway termincide anymore because you have to take 5.
So, Oblits at 115 points a pop... I wish it could be less expensive, but I would definitely still give them a go.
(sorry, zzzz. I don't know why I had 95 points in my mind when I wrote this. Still a massive disappointment but well, just wanted to throw something new into the discussion). And yes, this still applies even at a price point of 115 points for one Oblit...
Eldenfirefly wrote: Just to throw something else into the discussion. I know people are disappointed about the points. Heck I am too. However, I suddenly thought of something.
At 95 points per Oblit, and these can be taken as a unit of 1, AND they are decent at close combat now...
So, this means we can take a unit of 1 Oblit. Now this 1 Oblit is 95 points, and it can deep strike very very easily (because of its small footprint). Plus, the turn it comes down, it spits out 6 shots, and then it can immediately perform a charge. Make that 9 inch charge and you can now either tie up a shooty tank or beat down some backline objective troop which are probably kinda weak.
The tactical use of an Oblit has now increased due to us being able to take just 1. You got 95 points to spare. Take a unit of 1 Oblit. Suddenly its something opponent cannot ignore. Heck it can even be that crucial unit that gets you line breaker if you deep strike it in the back and your opponent just couldn't get rid of it (or didn't bother to). And at 95 points, its cheap enough you wouldn't exactly cry if you lost it. The old termicide used to be the same points. You can't even get a squad of chaos terminators these days as a throwaway termincide anymore because you have to take 5.
So, Oblits at 95 points a pop... I wish it could be less expensive, but I would definitely still give them a go.
115 pts per oblit.
Considering that about 90% of csm combos come from stratagems that scale better with bigger units this seems a bit meh.
Anyway, I need to find something new to use my 3d printed Chaos Ogryn Rockers as, since Obliterator isn't on the table anymore.
Hold out for a CULT OF DESTRUCTION/Mutilator formation/stratagem with the rest of the Vigilus stuff.
Mutilators are so damn close to being good right now.
Did you know you can jam 9 Renegades Mutilators + an Exalted Champ into a Dreadclaw? Neither did I until recently.
Get a big scary distraction-Thirster to tank your opponents AV so you can start the pod on the table and you can send those bad boys 15"+advance on T1, followed by 3" disembark into 4"+advance move into charge.
A good formation/strat will send them over the top.
And a good showing in a tournament using this loophole by obvious error of omission will wake up whoever has write permissions on the Index: Forces of Chaos FAQ
Brilliant win button today if you’ve already bought nine Muties, if you haven’t then save disappointment by putting the buy-in into a GW stockholder syndicate
So at 115 per oblit they clock in at 345 for 3 - assuming you VOTLW and Presicence them (Standard practice) and refire thats going to be 36 shots for 345 poitns as opposed to the 24 shots we woudl get previously for refiring oblits at 200 poitns plus the extra 200 poitns for the second oblit squad to bring the shots to 36... So at 345 its a bit of a discount but is more of a glass cannon with less woudns etc.?
It's funny because people still haven't realized that Daemon spells work on Oblits. Flikering Flames and VotLW gets you wounding on 2s, Boon of Change can increase their Melee damage or add a T, 3++ save on a 12 wound T5 unit means even the best weapons need to be shot at BS 2+ and you still probably wont kill all of them. Tzeench oblits will be hitting on 2s rerolling, wounding on 2s rerolling, have 3 re-rolls (GoF, MI, and CP reroll) for fleshmetal guns.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: It's funny because people still haven't realized that Daemon spells work on Oblits. Flikering Flames and VotLW gets you wounding on 2s, Boon of Change can increase their Melee damage or add a T, 3++ save on a 12 wound T5 unit means even the best weapons need to be shot at BS 2+ and you still probably wont kill all of them. Tzeench oblits will be hitting on 2s rerolling, wounding on 2s rerolling, have 3 re-rolls (GoF, MI, and CP reroll) for fleshmetal guns.
Fine and dandy, just leads to further emphasis why soup overall will damae the capabilities of armies played mono.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: It's funny because people still haven't realized that Daemon spells work on Oblits. Flikering Flames and VotLW gets you wounding on 2s, Boon of Change can increase their Melee damage or add a T, 3++ save on a 12 wound T5 unit means even the best weapons need to be shot at BS 2+ and you still probably wont kill all of them. Tzeench oblits will be hitting on 2s rerolling, wounding on 2s rerolling, have 3 re-rolls (GoF, MI, and CP reroll) for fleshmetal guns.
People do not at all forget that. You've listed 4 psychic powers required to support them, that is 2 casters worth at best; so factor in another 150+ points. Further, nearly all of it relies on teeznch, which then precludes Endless Cacophony; a poor choice since that is pretty much the only thing which comes close to making them worthwhile.
So we'll follow your example and give them tzeench, a fate caster for flickering, and an MoP for fleshmetal guns and a 4++. So now they cost more than a double gat knight; a bit more firepower (outside of heavy flamer range at least), no where near as much durability, range, board presence or melee threat. Further, on average at least one of those powers fail to go off. Also you don't have your 4++ first turn so you either have to deep strike, losing a turn of shooting, or pray you go first.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: It's funny because people still haven't realized that Daemon spells work on Oblits. Flikering Flames and VotLW gets you wounding on 2s, Boon of Change can increase their Melee damage or add a T, 3++ save on a 12 wound T5 unit means even the best weapons need to be shot at BS 2+ and you still probably wont kill all of them. Tzeench oblits will be hitting on 2s rerolling, wounding on 2s rerolling, have 3 re-rolls (GoF, MI, and CP reroll) for fleshmetal guns.
How do you get 3++ on obliterators?
Weaver of Fates from Dark Hereticus discipline for 4++
Cursed Earth from Malefic discipline for 3++
The more and more I look at it, the more and more I want the MoP to be spiffy but don't think he is. I love his spells, but he really needed to be 12" fly; he is even clearly flying on both the mini and in the fluff!
His poor movement means you want him to stand in back and aura-buff. The problem is that he has no good targets for that; Forgefiends suck, oblits are probably fairly lackluster now and are often going to deepstrike, decimaters are just worse than contemptors; not much worse, but enough that this guy is not going to push them over given his cost. Defiler...maybe? But it seems better to just take one and daemon forge it.
If he could move quickly, he could buff his best targets; bash bros (if he's allowed to get those keywords), daemon princes and Kytans. Maaaybe maulerfiends, though they aren't great.
We really need a relic for them that is like eldar faucho's wing.
drakerocket wrote: The more and more I look at it, the more and more I want the MoP to be spiffy but don't think he is. I love his spells, but he really needed to be 12" fly; he is even clearly flying on both the mini and in the fluff!
His poor movement means you want him to stand in back and aura-buff. The problem is that he has no good targets for that; Forgefiends suck, oblits are probably fairly lackluster now and are often going to deepstrike, decimaters are just worse than contemptors; not much worse, but enough that this guy is not going to push them over given his cost. Defiler...maybe? But it seems better to just take one and daemon forge it.
If he could move quickly, he could buff his best targets; bash bros (if he's allowed to get those keywords), daemon princes and Kytans. Maaaybe maulerfiends, though they aren't great.
We really need a relic for them that is like eldar faucho's wing.
I think there is potential for a massive forst turn with oblits and master of possession (albeit an expensive one). If you know you're going first, as you generally do with new CA missions.
1. Start oblits and MoP on the line
2. Forward operatives them both 9" move
3. Move 4", advance if needed
4. Pile on infernal power, mutated invigoration, prescience, VotLW and EC.
5. 36 fairl reliable, hard hitting shots with a 37-43" threat range.
Don't know if it's worth the points, talking 500 plus if you unclude MoP and a second sorcerer but that's goimg to take a lot of points off the board early.
Or you could just use warp time to move advance a unit of 3 obliterators twice on the first turn. That's a 8 inch plus double advance 2d6. Should bring them into stuff worth shooting at. Their weapons can be shot after advancing anyway.
Just use prescience. I would bypass this 1+ reroll. a 2+ BS is almost the same as a 1+ reroll and at some point, you are stacking just too many buffs on a unit. The marginal benefit isn't worth stacking so many hit or wound buffs. Prescience and veterans are more than enough really I feel. Maybe one more psychic from the MOP to allow for reroll of the d3 to save CP, cursed earth, and then delightful agonies. Then cacophony them to shoot twice.
Using so many psychic just to buff one unit better be worthwhile. As one poster above said. We are using two sorceror's worth of psychic plus strategems. Are you going to be able to one shot a knight even despite blowing all that?
Long time XIV member planning to expand into the XX this weekend. Would just like to say thanks for all the pointers above - it's all been really helpful to get to grasp with where heretic astartes are at.
Really looking forward to going romper stomper with the new daemonkin!
So as far as making a Daemonkin themed army, what legion(s) fare the best? I'm thinking Word Bearers or Black Legion given the fact that they can take multiple different marks of chaos.
I play World Eaters and Khorne Daemons and while I'm excited for some of the new rules and models, I'm kinda bummed that we can't benefit from the new Master of Possession or the new Malefic discipline (including the new summoning ability). I'm really hoping Khorne gets something special, even if it's an 8th ed Blood Tithe table or something.
I'm ordering the new shadow spear set tomorrow and I'm thinking of doing an iron warriors force with a few Daemon engines oblits and termies.
Played against chaos last 2 weeks at my local club with my Primaris Deathwatch and tabled then both times, my opponent had a few big squads of marines with Daemonettes and a load of chosen in rhinos and land raiders, the codex send really underpowered from the outside looking in?!
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: It's funny because people still haven't realized that Daemon spells work on Oblits. Flikering Flames and VotLW gets you wounding on 2s, Boon of Change can increase their Melee damage or add a T, 3++ save on a 12 wound T5 unit means even the best weapons need to be shot at BS 2+ and you still probably wont kill all of them. Tzeench oblits will be hitting on 2s rerolling, wounding on 2s rerolling, have 3 re-rolls (GoF, MI, and CP reroll) for fleshmetal guns.
Fine and dandy, just leads to further emphasis why soup overall will damae the capabilities of armies played mono.
With that many points invested into it...is it really saying allies are broken?
Your 10-man squads of Chaos Space Marines are great for holding objectives and offering fire support while the rest of your fast-moving, melee-focussed army speeds towards the foe to engage them in combat. Alternatively, you can use them to follow up your first wave of daemonically possessed gribblies and put the new beta Bolter Discipline rules to good use at close range.
whilest also linking the beta bolter rule.....
IN THE SAME SENTENCE!
It's funny that the cypher and fallen don't benefit from the beta bolter rule. I know they aren't used much at the moment, but if this rule becomes a thing it basically removes them from the game.
(Chosen are the same points and are a fraction more flexible in options, plus interact with more available stratagems).
I did a little quick math.
With average weapon rolls:
Against T7 3+
Newblits: 0,023 Wounds per point
Oldblits: 0,027 Wounds per point
Against T4 3+
Newblits: 0,030 Wounds per point
Oldblits: 0,036 Wounds per point
What the Newblits does better than Oldblits is stacking buffs on lots of shots, which means that each buff you put on them is more effective (in the same way you would prefer putting Endless Cacophany and VotlW on a full unit rather than a damaged one).
The ability to be buffed to put around 30-40 Wounds out per round onto a T7 3+/5++ target might be enough to make them worth taking.
I honestly think our best comparison is a broadside. Same cost, same toughness same armor. Broadside fires 8 str 7 ap -1 d3 weapons then 8 strength 5 ap 0 1 damage weapons at BS 4 (...which will probably never be bs 4 because tau, but we'll stick to no buffs). So 50% more wounds, and marginally superior fire power against some targets, solidly more against others. Oblits maybe pull ahead vs t8. No invulnerability on the broadside. I'd say 50% more wounds is probably a but better. They are also realistically much more survivable due to shield drones which trump any defense spells we could provide. Also better range on the broadside. Kind of seems to just completely win out =/
drakerocket wrote: I honestly think our best comparison is a broadside. Same cost, same toughness same armor. Broadside fires 8 str 7 ap -1 d3 weapons then 8 strength 5 ap 0 1 damage weapons at BS 4 (...which will probably never be bs 4 because tau, but we'll stick to no buffs). So 50% more wounds, and marginally superior fire power against some targets, solidly more against others. Oblits maybe pull ahead vs t8. No invulnerability on the broadside. I'd say 50% more wounds is probably a but better. They are also realistically much more survivable due to shield drones which trump any defense spells we could provide. Also better range on the broadside. Kind of seems to just completely win out =/
I think the difference between bs4 and bs3 is fairly huge. Especially with so many minus to hit modifiers flying around. Plus no endless Cacophony, deepstriking or invul or close combat weapons is all fairly significant.
Not saying that broadsides aren't good but they aren't just better imo.
drakerocket wrote: I honestly think our best comparison is a broadside. Same cost, same toughness same armor. Broadside fires 8 str 7 ap -1 d3 weapons then 8 strength 5 ap 0 1 damage weapons at BS 4 (...which will probably never be bs 4 because tau, but we'll stick to no buffs). So 50% more wounds, and marginally superior fire power against some targets, solidly more against others. Oblits maybe pull ahead vs t8. No invulnerability on the broadside. I'd say 50% more wounds is probably a but better. They are also realistically much more survivable due to shield drones which trump any defense spells we could provide. Also better range on the broadside. Kind of seems to just completely win out =/
I think the difference between bs4 and bs3 is fairly huge. Especially with so many minus to hit modifiers flying around. Plus no endless Cacophony, deepstriking or invul or close combat weapons is all fairly significant.
Not saying that broadsides aren't good but they aren't just better imo.
drakerocket wrote: I honestly think our best comparison is a broadside. Same cost, same toughness same armor. Broadside fires 8 str 7 ap -1 d3 weapons then 8 strength 5 ap 0 1 damage weapons at BS 4 (...which will probably never be bs 4 because tau, but we'll stick to no buffs). So 50% more wounds, and marginally superior fire power against some targets, solidly more against others. Oblits maybe pull ahead vs t8. No invulnerability on the broadside. I'd say 50% more wounds is probably a but better. They are also realistically much more survivable due to shield drones which trump any defense spells we could provide. Also better range on the broadside. Kind of seems to just completely win out =/
Im getting 2.444 wounds per round against tanks and 3,1 against MEQ.
Newblits are doing 3.5 against tanks and 4.4 against MEQ.
Which are the targets where Broadsides are doing more damage? They shoot 2 more shots at the lowest power setting for Newblits and 8 shots which are good for crowd clearing, so i guess they might be better against Guardsmen?
Edit: Even with BS3 Broadsides are 0.25 wounds behind Newblits against tanks, at BS2 they get better, but when you are having that amount of buffing you should start looking at how often you shoot Oblits without buffs
I think comparing stratergems, buffs etc is quite difficult. They both have ways of buffing hit rates, adding to wound etc but shooting twice for 2 CP makes oblits something worth consodering when you're stacking biffs on them.
drakerocket wrote: I honestly think our best comparison is a broadside. Same cost, same toughness same armor. Broadside fires 8 str 7 ap -1 d3 weapons then 8 strength 5 ap 0 1 damage weapons at BS 4 (...which will probably never be bs 4 because tau, but we'll stick to no buffs). So 50% more wounds, and marginally superior fire power against some targets, solidly more against others. Oblits maybe pull ahead vs t8. No invulnerability on the broadside. I'd say 50% more wounds is probably a but better. They are also realistically much more survivable due to shield drones which trump any defense spells we could provide. Also better range on the broadside. Kind of seems to just completely win out =/
I think the difference between bs4 and bs3 is fairly huge. Especially with so many minus to hit modifiers flying around. Plus no endless Cacophony, deepstriking or invul or close combat weapons is all fairly significant.
Not saying that broadsides aren't good but they aren't just better imo.
How often do you see a broadside with bs 4+ ?
Then you should incorporate the cost of the Markerlight until there. We can always just assume a Lord or Abigail rerolls if you want to do that equivalent.
drakerocket wrote: I honestly think our best comparison is a broadside. Same cost, same toughness same armor. Broadside fires 8 str 7 ap -1 d3 weapons then 8 strength 5 ap 0 1 damage weapons at BS 4 (...which will probably never be bs 4 because tau, but we'll stick to no buffs). So 50% more wounds, and marginally superior fire power against some targets, solidly more against others. Oblits maybe pull ahead vs t8. No invulnerability on the broadside. I'd say 50% more wounds is probably a but better. They are also realistically much more survivable due to shield drones which trump any defense spells we could provide. Also better range on the broadside. Kind of seems to just completely win out =/
I think the difference between bs4 and bs3 is fairly huge. Especially with so many minus to hit modifiers flying around. Plus no endless Cacophony, deepstriking or invul or close combat weapons is all fairly significant.
Not saying that broadsides aren't good but they aren't just better imo.
How often do you see a broadside with bs 4+ ?
Then you should incorporate the cost of the Markerlight until there. We can always just assume a Lord or Abigail rerolls if you want to do that equivalent.
Sure let's in corporate the cost of abbadon and marker lights, i bet you can field more abbys and Oblits then broadsides with markerlights.... /S
drakerocket wrote: I honestly think our best comparison is a broadside. Same cost, same toughness same armor. Broadside fires 8 str 7 ap -1 d3 weapons then 8 strength 5 ap 0 1 damage weapons at BS 4 (...which will probably never be bs 4 because tau, but we'll stick to no buffs). So 50% more wounds, and marginally superior fire power against some targets, solidly more against others. Oblits maybe pull ahead vs t8. No invulnerability on the broadside. I'd say 50% more wounds is probably a but better. They are also realistically much more survivable due to shield drones which trump any defense spells we could provide. Also better range on the broadside. Kind of seems to just completely win out =/
I think the difference between bs4 and bs3 is fairly huge. Especially with so many minus to hit modifiers flying around. Plus no endless Cacophony, deepstriking or invul or close combat weapons is all fairly significant.
Not saying that broadsides aren't good but they aren't just better imo.
How often do you see a broadside with bs 4+ ?
Then you should incorporate the cost of the Markerlight until there. We can always just assume a Lord or Abigail rerolls if you want to do that equivalent.
Sure let's in corporate the cost of abbadon and marker lights, i bet you can field more abbys and Oblits then broadsides with markerlights.... /S
Tbf you can't easily compare points for buffing characters, psychic powers and stratergems. Oblits can have far more piled on them. Plus Abbadon is much more useful outside of buffing units than a cadre fireblade or a firesight marksman!
The problem, as many have pointed out, is that I'm guessing you're doing your math with averages; unfortunately, the inconsistency of the obliterator profile must also be weighted. Everyone would rather those be str 8 -2 ap 2 damage guns. But they aren't, so using that as your baseline math is problematic. There isn't a good way to solve that, but it is a considerable downside. Broadsides can send all of their strength 5 ap 0 shots at appropriate targets, and then do the same with the strength 7s. Oblits can't pick correct targets because you don't know what their profile will be.
Even if, on the average, oblits pull slightly ahead ignoring buffs (more are available to oblits, yes, but marker lights benefit tau more broadly beyond that single unit), broadsides benefit from better range and durability (and comparatively easy ways of actually surviving to turn 2), both of which make them far more functional.
drakerocket wrote: The problem, as many have pointed out, is that I'm guessing you're doing your math with averages; unfortunately, the inconsistency of the obliterator profile must also be weighted. Everyone would rather those be str 8 -2 ap 2 damage guns. But they aren't, so using that as your baseline math is problematic. There isn't a good way to solve that, but it is a considerable downside. Broadsides can send all of their strength 5 ap 0 shots at appropriate targets, and then do the same with the strength 7s. Oblits can't pick correct targets because you don't know what their profile will be.
Even if, on the average, oblits pull slightly ahead ignoring buffs (more are available to oblits, yes, but marker lights benefit tau more broadly beyond that single unit), broadsides benefit from better range and durability (and comparatively easy ways of actually surviving to turn 2), both of which make them far more functional.
Also the pricetag on csm buffs is quite hefty, especially stuff like abbadon. Markerlights comparativly are cheap.
Thematically, a daemon engine or daemonkin army sounds really cool though. That master of possession psychic cursed earth that gives a +1 invul bubble is really good. The one that gives him another aura to reroll 1 to hit and wound is amazing too.
And I can see how a warpsmith in a heavy Daemon Engine army would be not only fluffy but also will definitely be put to good use because all the priority targets would be the engines in that case.
Have a warpsmith and MOP and a Daemon Prince as the core surrounded by Daemon Engines. Maybe two Defilers, a Forgefiend. If you go spearhead, you can stack on even more Daemon Engines.
You can slowly walk up the board while firing, since all your engines are now 4++ with cursed earth. Use Blasphemous machines so that one of your engines can walk and shoot heavy weapons without suffering a minus to BS.
Two turns in, you are at 12 inches or more down the board (if your warp smith and MOP advanced). Thats when you also deep strike in oblitierators into a mid table cover 6 inches from your MOP and let loose with a hail of fleshmetal gun shots. You now have daemon engines threatening his lines and at mid table where they also have the option to stand there and pour our heavy fire. They are also in a position to protect your oblits and your heroes.
Not sure how competitive it will be but its definitely thematic, fluffy and sounds fun.
For a more "competitive" version of this. Run MOP with three Kytan Ravagers up one side of the board. Then have Abbadon and cultists running up the centre of the board. Then whatever points you have left, take an Oblit or maybe a squad of mutilators lol. You will own the middle of the board because your whole army will be there. And other than the cultists who are immune to morale cos Abbadon and have tide of traitors, the rest of the army (the 3 Kytans) will be 4++ save because cursed earth. The 3 Kytans will be be shooting out 24 shots per turn plus rerolls. And well, Kytans are nasty in close combat too. And you have Abbadon ready to own the centre of the board and he will gut anyone who dares to try and get close to your MOP. And you got a ton of CP to spend on strategems. Best of all, you get to play with the new MOP model, and the new Abaddon model coming out as well. lol
drakerocket wrote: The problem, as many have pointed out, is that I'm guessing you're doing your math with averages; unfortunately, the inconsistency of the obliterator profile must also be weighted. Everyone would rather those be str 8 -2 ap 2 damage guns. But they aren't, so using that as your baseline math is problematic. There isn't a good way to solve that, but it is a considerable downside.
People now have access to 2 re-rolls concerning the shooting, 3 if their Tzeench players with GoF. That's pretty good way to solve that problem.
drakerocket wrote: Broadsides can send all of their strength 5 ap 0 shots at appropriate targets, and then do the same with the strength 7s. Oblits can't pick correct targets because you don't know what their profile will be.
Oblits roll for S, AP, and D BEFORE choosing their targets. So they can send their shots at whatever best suits their weapons.
drakerocket wrote: Even if, on the average, oblits pull slightly ahead ignoring buffs (more are available to oblits, yes, but marker lights benefit tau more broadly beyond that single unit).
Oblits have WS 3+ with AP -1 and D3 melee weapons. They also have a 3+ BS compared to the 4+ Broadesides have.
drakerocket wrote: broadsides benefit from better range and durability (and comparatively easy ways of actually surviving to turn 2), both of which make them far more functional.
Broadsides can't DS, having to start on the table on Turn 1. They have 1 additional wound at the same T, and no Invul save.
Oblits out of the gate are better. They have two main abilities which make them better. Deepstrike which allows you to drop them where and when you need them, and 6 Assualt shots. These two in conjunction make Oblits more mobile.
Oh wow. I just realised that possessed can be taken in squads of 20! So, you can have two squads of 20 possessed, 2 greater possessed, Abaddon, MOP, then run a Daemon patrol for a herald (choose whichever mark you fancy).
So, that's 40 possessed with the MOP giving them a 4++ save running up the board. The greater possessed and the daemon herald will give them +2 str making them Str 7. And Abaddon makes them immune to morale and also gives them reroll to hit.
80 wounds at 4++ to chew through. And when they hit they will hit like a truck!
Does Chaos Daemon Loci affect CSM daemon units? (I think they do). A Khorne loci gives an aura of reroll to charge. A Slanaash Loci gives an aura of advance and charge...
Three rerolls consumes more resources. None of those are free; they're just an extra tax to make the unit do what other units just have in a more stable fashion. One eats up your CP and your only CP reroll in the shooting phase, the other two require casts (themselves rolls) and of course the units which cast them.
And no, they can't pick very well. Because they don't know their ideal target before they fire, they might not be within 24", because 24" is pretty gakky heavy support fire range; I'd feel *much* different if they had 36".
Broadsides have 2 more wounds not 1 more; i.e. they have 50% more wounds. And while yes, the invuln is nice, it's also...not going to come up that often. These are 2+ save infantry models; particularly in the case of the broadside with its range, cover will be common; 1+ save means very few things would make a 5++ relevant, and even outside of cover -4 ap is uncommon.
Endless cacophony is probably the single saving grace and the only real advantage oblits have to off-set the advantages in toughness, range and ease of use of broadsides. But if your argument to counter their poor range and to save them from being obliterated turn 1 is that they'll deep strike, then all that endless cacophony does is make up for the turn of shooting you have to give up in order to deep strike. And if you're suggesting a heavily supported build, you're going to be very limited in where you can deepstrike while remaining in auras and psychic power range.
More to the point, Broadsides aren't really top of the meta anyway. I would really feel very differently about oblits if they had 36" range. Plug them into alpha legion, in some ruins to lay down fire while guarded with a -1 to hit 1+/5++? That would be legit. As it is though, for 115 points...the 20 point upgrade to contemptor seems like a no-brainer.
drakerocket wrote: Three rerolls consumes more resources. None of those are free; they're just an extra tax to make the unit do what other units just have in a more stable fashion. One eats up your CP and your only CP reroll in the shooting phase, the other two require casts (themselves rolls) and of course the units which cast them.
Sure it does if you use all 3. Most of the time you might need 2, probably only 1. It wont be eating up your CP unless you roll poorly every turn.
drakerocket wrote: And no, they can't pick very well. Because they don't know their ideal target before they fire, they might not be within 24", because 24" is pretty gakky heavy support fire range; I'd feel *much* different if they had 36".
Yes they do, read their profile it says "When you select this unit to shoot roll..." so before you pick the targets of your shooting you roll to see what you will be shooting. You know you have a 24" range and variable weapon stats and don't plan for it that is on you not the unit.
drakerocket wrote: Broadsides have 2 more wounds not 1 more; i.e. they have 50% more wounds. And while yes, the invuln is nice, it's also...not going to come up that often. These are 2+ save infantry models; particularly in the case of the broadside with its range, cover will be common; 1+ save means very few things would make a 5++ relevant, and even outside of cover -4 ap is uncommon.
Yes, and you can set them in one spot and anything in range will die very quickly, but that's the rub you have to sit in 1 spot using your BS 4+ to kill things. They are good at area denial but bad at killing things, because they cant move around.
drakerocket wrote: Endless cacophony is probably the single saving grace and the only real advantage oblits have to off-set the advantages in toughness, range and ease of use of broadsides. But if your argument to counter their poor range and to save them from being obliterated turn 1 is that they'll deep strike, then all that endless cacophony does is make up for the turn of shooting you have to give up in order to deep strike. And if you're suggesting a heavily supported build, you're going to be very limited in where you can deepstrike while remaining in auras and psychic power range.
Your only limited in so far as the movement of units and with warp time your movement should be pretty good.
drakerocket wrote: More to the point, Broadsides aren't really top of the meta anyway. I would really feel very differently about oblits if they had 36" range. Plug them into alpha legion, in some ruins to lay down fire while guarded with a -1 to hit 1+/5++? That would be legit. As it is though, for 115 points...the 20 point upgrade to contemptor seems like a no-brainer.
But they don't have 36" range they have a 24" range. They can be buffed to have a 3++ for Tzeench players. They can shoot twice a turn and have a 5+ FnP for Slaanesh. Nurgle Oblits can have -1 to being hit and have models added and be healed to full.
drakerocket wrote: Three rerolls consumes more resources. None of those are free; they're just an extra tax to make the unit do what other units just have in a more stable fashion. One eats up your CP and your only CP reroll in the shooting phase, the other two require casts (themselves rolls) and of course the units which cast them.
Sure it does if you use all 3. Most of the time you might need 2, probably only 1. It wont be eating up your CP unless you roll poorly every turn.
drakerocket wrote: And no, they can't pick very well. Because they don't know their ideal target before they fire, they might not be within 24", because 24" is pretty gakky heavy support fire range; I'd feel *much* different if they had 36".
Yes they do, read their profile it says "When you select this unit to shoot roll..." so before you pick the targets of your shooting you roll to see what you will be shooting. You know you have a 24" range and variable weapon stats and don't plan for it that is on you not the unit.
drakerocket wrote: Broadsides have 2 more wounds not 1 more; i.e. they have 50% more wounds. And while yes, the invuln is nice, it's also...not going to come up that often. These are 2+ save infantry models; particularly in the case of the broadside with its range, cover will be common; 1+ save means very few things would make a 5++ relevant, and even outside of cover -4 ap is uncommon.
Yes, and you can set them in one spot and anything in range will die very quickly, but that's the rub you have to sit in 1 spot using your BS 4+ to kill things. They are good at area denial but bad at killing things, because they cant move around.
drakerocket wrote: Endless cacophony is probably the single saving grace and the only real advantage oblits have to off-set the advantages in toughness, range and ease of use of broadsides. But if your argument to counter their poor range and to save them from being obliterated turn 1 is that they'll deep strike, then all that endless cacophony does is make up for the turn of shooting you have to give up in order to deep strike. And if you're suggesting a heavily supported build, you're going to be very limited in where you can deepstrike while remaining in auras and psychic power range.
Your only limited in so far as the movement of units and with warp time your movement should be pretty good.
drakerocket wrote: More to the point, Broadsides aren't really top of the meta anyway. I would really feel very differently about oblits if they had 36" range. Plug them into alpha legion, in some ruins to lay down fire while guarded with a -1 to hit 1+/5++? That would be legit. As it is though, for 115 points...the 20 point upgrade to contemptor seems like a no-brainer.
But they don't have 36" range they have a 24" range. They can be buffed to have a 3++ for Tzeench players. They can shoot twice a turn and have a 5+ FnP for Slaanesh. Nurgle Oblits can have -1 to being hit and have models added and be healed to full.
Nope: You need to factor in cost, in this case, a Broadside is cheaper, even with marker light then a Oblit squad with MoP support.
Secondly: Again, no fixed Weapons profile = Bad and no You will not have access to that ammount of rerolls you so ardently preach BECAUSE THE MOP HAS NO MOBILITY.
Thirdly: Another Power for Warptiming adds ONE more sorcerer so now we ar no more talking about 345 +90 but +another 90 pts + equipment. FOR the chance, that warptime goes off, on top of the other Psy powers. that is unreliable and expensive point wise. SO not only do you have to consider CP for rerolls for the weapon but also for the Psy to get Rerolls without the need to use CP. Also if you want to add even more buffs, there comes a point where you will need even more Psykers which means even more points sunk into a unit.
Fourth: "Send them into a good spot". You seem to play on rather empty terrain there if this is your counterpoint.
Eldenfirefly wrote: zzz... really? I don't see the merits of debating Broadsides vs Obliterators. Its not like a CSM player can take Broadsides...
The point is, that not even cheaper broadsides are considered much to be played even though they are cheaper and not a huge ressouce sink. Basically Oblits are more expensive and bigger ressources Sinks, see the problem now?
We use the tools we do have. CSM cannot use Broadsides so I don't care about Broadsides. We can use Oblits however. Now, the points leak is not confirmed. (At least not until the actual stuff drops and we know for sure).
So, we might as well make the best out of it and see what are the possible ways we can put these expensive Oblits to use.
Eldenfirefly wrote: zzz... really? I don't see the merits of debating Broadsides vs Obliterators. Its not like a CSM player can take Broadsides...
The point is, that not even cheaper broadsides are considered much to be played even though they are cheaper and not a huge ressouce sink. Basically Oblits are more expensive and bigger ressources Sinks, see the problem now?
Broadsides are played in all the top tau lists, they're a staple along with riptides.
Oblits cover a massive weakness for CSM and that's decent anti armour. We have lots of units good against chaff and TEQ. Apart from bringing a sub par castellan or maybe butcher cannon leviathans, it's sparse for killing knights etc.
I think you coild build a list around daemonkin, oblits, maulerfiends, kytan, MoP etc and have most bases covered.
Eldenfirefly wrote: zzz... really? I don't see the merits of debating Broadsides vs Obliterators. Its not like a CSM player can take Broadsides...
The point is, that not even cheaper broadsides are considered much to be played even though they are cheaper and not a huge ressouce sink. Basically Oblits are more expensive and bigger ressources Sinks, see the problem now?
Broadsides are played in all the top tau lists, they're a staple along with riptides.
Oblits cover a massive weakness for CSM and that's decent anti armour. We have lots of units good against chaff and TEQ. Apart from bringing a sub par castellan or maybe butcher cannon leviathans, it's sparse for killing knights etc.
I think you coild build a list around daemonkin, oblits, maulerfiends, kytan, MoP etc and have most bases covered.
I usually run 2x daemon battalion with brims and nuglings and plaguebearers. But you can get a bat for about 200 points if you want. You can run almost any list with 14 CP.
Your 10-man squads of Chaos Space Marines are great for holding objectives and offering fire support while the rest of your fast-moving, melee-focussed army speeds towards the foe to engage them in combat. Alternatively, you can use them to follow up your first wave of daemonically possessed gribblies and put the new beta Bolter Discipline rules to good use at close range.
whilest also linking the beta bolter rule.....
IN THE SAME SENTENCE!
13"-24" is close range. Especially when it was posted in direct contrast to the tactic that immediately preceded it, which was sitting them backfield holding objectives and taking potshots with their long ranged squad members.
So a Broadside was used because it is probably the closest thing which exists to the new obliterator, as not many other mini-dreads exist. But I guess if you'd prefer something chaos, cool; A contemptor dread has a 36 inch range, 8 heavy 8 ap -1 dam2 shots with a morale penalty; so two average rolls, one below average roll on an oblit's weapon profile with a -2 morale penalty; roughly evens out to an average oblit roll, and *also* has 25% more shots. It is a 2+ BS (sure, it degrades, but by the time it even degrades once, the oblit would be dead). It's move is twice that of an oblit, +6 wounds, +2 T, -1 armor save for +20 points.
So you pay around 15% more points for: +35%~ more firepower, probably doubled survivability and enough range to actually hit your targets without moving.
So even points, save 69 (since it's 23 points) on 3; so enough to buy a herald of tzeench who will buy you your reroll something like 60-70% of the time, okay sure.
Let's say you get a 9 strength -2 ap and 2 damage roll on your oblits with your reroll.
Vs T7 3+ you expect: right around 10.5 wounds for the oblits and 13.1 for the contemptors. If you *also* shell out CP for VoTLW you get to about 13.1, but of course now you're spending CP just to match up.
Ahhh, but endless cacophony will save the day! Eh...maybe? But it's not very practical. 24" makes it hard to acquire an ideal first turn target, and oblit's low suitability vs points/threat. To use it, you're probably deepstriking. And if you're deepstriking, you've now lost a turn of shooting vs the contemptors who can shoot much further; so you still end up being behind.
So oblits end up comparing *really* not well vs another chaos unit (and as I recall doredos have been shown to be even more efficient than contemptors).
drakerocket wrote: So a Broadside was used because it is probably the closest thing which exists to the new obliterator, as not many other mini-dreads exist. But I guess if you'd prefer something chaos, cool; A contemptor dread has a 36 inch range, 8 heavy 8 ap -1 dam2 shots with a morale penalty; so two average rolls, one below average roll on an oblit's weapon profile with a -2 morale penalty; roughly evens out to an average oblit roll, and *also* has 25% more shots. It is a 2+ BS (sure, it degrades, but by the time it even degrades once, the oblit would be dead). It's move is twice that of an oblit, +6 wounds, +2 T, -1 armor save for +20 points.
So you pay around 15% more points for: +35%~ more firepower, probably doubled survivability and enough range to actually hit your targets without moving.
So even points, save 69 (since it's 23 points) on 3; so enough to buy a herald of tzeench who will buy you your reroll something like 60-70% of the time, okay sure.
Let's say you get a 9 strength -2 ap and 2 damage roll on your oblits with your reroll.
Vs T7 3+ you expect: right around 10.5 wounds for the oblits and 13.1 for the contemptors. If you *also* shell out CP for VoTLW you get to about 13.1, but of course now you're spending CP just to match up.
Ahhh, but endless cacophony will save the day! Eh...maybe? But it's not very practical. 24" makes it hard to acquire an ideal first turn target, and oblit's low suitability vs points/threat. To use it, you're probably deepstriking. And if you're deepstriking, you've now lost a turn of shooting vs the contemptors who can shoot much further; so you still end up being behind.
So oblits end up comparing *really* not well vs another chaos unit (and as I recall doredos have been shown to be even more efficient than contemptors).
This is what i'm getting as damage per point for Blits, Havocs and Contemptors (Which are the best choices, per point for raw damage that I have found). They are really close, except for the Oldblits who are a bit higher than the rest.
Unit Wound per point against T7 3+
Oldblits 0,036467236467
Autocan Contemptor 0,032206119163
Lascannon Havocs 0,031425364759
Newblits 0,030917874396
Seems like they compare really OK with other similar stuff. At least from a damage per point perspective.
From what I can tell,Blits are getting nerfed, because before they were the hands down best choice by about 15-20%, which was enhanced by how much you could buff them.
I have not done the math for Deredeos, but i don't think they are more efficient than Contemptors, They are 39 points more expensive, and for that you are getting 6 Heavy Bolter shots. It might have an edge against FLY with negative hit modifiers, but other than that i doubt they are better.
drakerocket wrote: So a Broadside was used because it is probably the closest thing which exists to the new obliterator, as not many other mini-dreads exist. But I guess if you'd prefer something chaos, cool; A contemptor dread has a 36 inch range, 8 heavy 8 ap -1 dam2 shots with a morale penalty; so two average rolls, one below average roll on an oblit's weapon profile with a -2 morale penalty; roughly evens out to an average oblit roll, and *also* has 25% more shots. It is a 2+ BS (sure, it degrades, but by the time it even degrades once, the oblit would be dead). It's move is twice that of an oblit, +6 wounds, +2 T, -1 armor save for +20 points.
So you pay around 15% more points for: +35%~ more firepower, probably doubled survivability and enough range to actually hit your targets without moving.
So even points, save 69 (since it's 23 points) on 3; so enough to buy a herald of tzeench who will buy you your reroll something like 60-70% of the time, okay sure.
Let's say you get a 9 strength -2 ap and 2 damage roll on your oblits with your reroll.
Vs T7 3+ you expect: right around 10.5 wounds for the oblits and 13.1 for the contemptors. If you *also* shell out CP for VoTLW you get to about 13.1, but of course now you're spending CP just to match up.
Ahhh, but endless cacophony will save the day! Eh...maybe? But it's not very practical. 24" makes it hard to acquire an ideal first turn target, and oblit's low suitability vs points/threat. To use it, you're probably deepstriking. And if you're deepstriking, you've now lost a turn of shooting vs the contemptors who can shoot much further; so you still end up being behind.
So oblits end up comparing *really* not well vs another chaos unit (and as I recall doredos have been shown to be even more efficient than contemptors).
I mean you've used those 69 points really badly there. For a start you've rerolled the only stat that makes no difference to your t7 3+ target, not sure why. And a support character that does nothing to help their shooting attacks.
If you use a chaos lord. You get 12.4 wounds. If you take a master of possession casting one of his two powers, say infernal power. You get 14.5. Double shooting that's 2 predators killed rather than 1 predator down to one wound, for 2CP and an extra 29 points.
Plus it's knights I'm most worried about as there are soooooo many out there at the moment. VotLW really helps with that.
So, being on-par in shooting per point but being far worse for durability per point is the big downside here. And it also ignores range. Range is a very big deal.
So if the random dice roll of three ended up on AP in the previous example instead of strength then you'd go to about 13 wounds (assuming you didn't bump into a 5+ invuln save). If the damage ended up the 3 then it'd be 15.5. The average between the three possible combinations of 2 "2" rolls and 1 "3" ends up a bit lower than the contemptor as well. But if you ever roll a 1 on the damage, nothing will save that mediocrity. As to inefficient buffing, Gaze of Fate rerolls keep being brought up and nothing else can be afforded on the budget point difference between 3 Contemptors and 3 oblits. But even if you gave them a MoP instead, problems occur; if your argument is that you're deep striking, you won't get in range of Infernal Power so instead you get Mutated Invigoration (still make a little dicey by deepstriking but 18" is okay). 50% chance that power goes off, so roughly equal to 1.5 re-rolls on your dice. Not amazing and not going to dramatically shift the math.
And...again...even if oblits shot 30% more efficiently, which they don't, they are much more fragile and much shorter ranged. Even vs lascannons (the most favorable possible profile since it takes away any advantage of t7 vs t5) they're still only half as survivable as a contemptor. They won't survive a first turn on the field, probably won't have range to fire at what they want to turn one; deep striking loses you a whole turn of firing; that's a very big deal.
I think your best case scenario probably is against a knight. At which point loading up 3 deep striking oblits with VotL, EC, Prescience, and 2 rerolls (gaze and command) ends up getting you a dead rotate ion shields castelian if you got the death hex off (can't assume much, but if you guarantee at least 9 st / 2 damage or 8 st/3 damage it'll do the job). If you get str 9 3 damage you almost manage it without death hex. That's 3 successful psychic powers, 5 CP and around 560 points...but it is a dead knight, which is certainly useful. It's also a hell of a suicide run, really contingent on a small number of rolls and can't work turn 1 =/
I dunno. I don't really think they're good. I think they aren't junk and you more or less have to build around them because of how much support they require. Reserving 345 points of anti-tank until round 2 is a rough bag. They are going to die after 1 round of shooting because of how close they have to be and their poor durability profile.
If they were 95 points, I'd think they were solidly good. If they had 36" inch range, I'd think the same. If they were instead introduced as "Greater Obliterators" and were like Greater Possessed with the character keyword? More expensive but with some kind of oblit buff? That would have been amazing. As it is, I think they are mediocre in most scenarios, good for 1 thing and risky even at that one thing.
Your 10-man squads of Chaos Space Marines are great for holding objectives and offering fire support while the rest of your fast-moving, melee-focussed army speeds towards the foe to engage them in combat. Alternatively, you can use them to follow up your first wave of daemonically possessed gribblies and put the new beta Bolter Discipline rules to good use at close range.
whilest also linking the beta bolter rule.....
IN THE SAME SENTENCE!
13"-24" is close range. Especially when it was posted in direct contrast to the tactic that immediately preceded it, which was sitting them backfield holding objectives and taking potshots with their long ranged squad members.
The point is you don't get use out of the bolter beta rule if you move! Except Bikes and termis.
drakerocket wrote: So, being on-par in shooting per point but being far worse for durability per point is the big downside here. And it also ignores range. Range is a very big deal.
Oblits are glass cannons, even though contemptors will last longer, oblits will hit much harder when you take into account psychic powers and stratergems.
Psychic powers and stratagems that can be denied/failed?
You can't put a bad unit into a list on the hope of propping it up with stratagems because when you run into an army that can deny those stratagems, you're just left with a bad unit. It's bad list-building.
Psychic powers are a bit more reasonable to expect to go off, but you still need to factor the opportunity costs of saving CP re-rolls/building in Gaze of Fate etc, and the fact that you can fail them, and they can be denied.
If there's a chance you could run into Aeldari/GSC, you can't use Oblits. It's really that simple. They cost far too much to be dead weight in those matchups.
Honestly? It’s a fair bit of swings and roundabouts.
Contemptor has better range but is more vulnerable if you lose first turn. If there’s LOS-blocking terrain, or corner-hugging going on, it might not get an optimum target. Havocs are similar, and cannot be fairly assessed for DPP based on a unit of five, because you’re probably going to take some redshirts to take the first few wounds. There’s no point spending points on a unit that, after the first failed 3+, gives your opponent a Lascannon kill every subsequent fail.
Newblits can land in terrain for 1+ saves (or hug a tree for 0+ saves and fall back & shoot), can pick a drop zone to peek around an inconvenient building (or hide behind a convenient one), cannot be killed before they take their first shot (except by strats like Auspex Scan), and if they get charged by a minor screening unit have a better chance than before of swatting away the tarpit.
A niche twist on the latter - if you’re rolling Slaanesh Daemonkin and your Newblits start the turn entangled with something and Smite isn’t a viable exit strategy, Hysterical Frenzy could enable them to kick the pests away before the shooting phase.
drakerocket wrote: So, being on-par in shooting per point but being far worse for durability per point is the big downside here. And it also ignores range. Range is a very big deal.
Oblits are glass cannons, even though contemptors will last longer, oblits will hit much harder when you take into account psychic powers and stratergems.
Oblits will last longer, they are more durable to small arms fire (S4 and below) and they wont get blasted off the table by turn 2.
Not to mention the simple fact that they can drop in and blast a Knight off the table in one turn.
2 CP, 3 spells, and 345 points for a good chance at killing a Knight on 1 turn is a price I'll pay.
Eldenfirefly wrote: zzz... really? I don't see the merits of debating Broadsides vs Obliterators. Its not like a CSM player can take Broadsides...
The point is, that not even cheaper broadsides are considered much to be played even though they are cheaper and not a huge ressouce sink. Basically Oblits are more expensive and bigger ressources Sinks, see the problem now?
Did you seriously just say broadsides are not considered to be played?
Incredibly uninformed comment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
drakerocket wrote: So a Broadside was used because it is probably the closest thing which exists to the new obliterator, as not many other mini-dreads exist.
There is more similarity between Necorn destroyers and the new obliterators. Similar guns, cost, range and durability.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Oh wow. I just realised that possessed can be taken in squads of 20! So, you can have two squads of 20 possessed, 2 greater possessed, Abaddon, MOP, then run a Daemon patrol for a herald (choose whichever mark you fancy).
So, that's 40 possessed with the MOP giving them a 4++ save running up the board. The greater possessed and the daemon herald will give them +2 str making them Str 7. And Abaddon makes them immune to morale and also gives them reroll to hit.
80 wounds at 4++ to chew through. And when they hit they will hit like a truck!
Does Chaos Daemon Loci affect CSM daemon units? (I think they do). A Khorne loci gives an aura of reroll to charge. A Slanaash Loci gives an aura of advance and charge...
I think when comparing to other Chaos shooty units, we also need to consider how capable they are of taking out rival shooty units. Like a poster above said. 3 Oblits backed by psychic and strategems can drop down and have a pretty good chance of killing one knight in that turn. And if they aren't killed, they can continue to put out that kind of hurt each turn.
If we put down a leviathan, or two comtemptors, or two squads of havocs. Can these kill a knight in turn 1?
At least Oblits dropping down can kill something and try and make back their points in turn 2. Everything after that is bonus. My Leviathan, comtemptor, havocs could get shot off the board turn 1 and then they didn't make back their points at all...
Not saying Oblits are godly. They are too expensive to be godly. But at least they can make back their points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw, I just saw a battle report of the greater possessed in action. That thing is mean in combat! It occurs to me now that CSM can get a brigade without having too many slots wasted now.
3HQs (not hard). fast attack use 3 chaos spawn or 3 min squads of bikes, heavy support - no lack of options, 3 elites - 3 greater possessed are very good for running up the board along with your 6 troop choices.
The problem comes with the troop choices. 6 troop choices are rough when your basic troop choice is CSM. Maybe world eaters troops with greater possessed running up alongside? They can make Maulerfiends better too.
drakerocket wrote: Destroyers are 50 points and move 10 with 3+ armor? I mean, I guess you could compare them, but broadsides seem more similar.
I actually do think nurgle might be the way to go. A 0+ save will be hard to break and nurgle can revive whole oblits
2 destroyers are not only similar in price but have almost identical shooting and are used the same way. Broadsides are long ranged castle units, BTW they aren't infantry which is one of the biggest things your overlooking.
But I think comparing oblits to anything from a xenos book is ultimately worthless. Apples and hand grenades.
I think I am ok with new obliterators. A set of three clocks in at 345, two sets of oldblits were 390. With EC and buffs, three outperform six old obliterators. If you get vected, you lose six shots but you still have 18 shots hitting on 2s, wounding with +1, which isn't too far off from what you get with 24 shots, but only half buffed.
So, GW decided that I can't take those sweet new models with my Death Guard for some reason. Which means I have to use Black Legion or maybe generic CSM to use them.
Which brings me to my question:
How do you run troop CSM? I know Cultists are the meta but I want to use actual CSM in my army. Small 5 man squads with 2 special weapons?
Causalis wrote: So, GW decided that I can't take those sweet new models with my Death Guard for some reason. Which means I have to use Black Legion or maybe generic CSM to use them.
Which brings me to my question:
How do you run troop CSM? I know Cultists are the meta but I want to use actual CSM in my army. Small 5 man squads with 2 special weapons?
That or the Cheaper heavy weaponry like autocannons.
Beyond that 5 man squads still cost you without equipment allready 65 pts. So cultists still have them beat.
5 man squads with Plasma or some heavy when they're sitting on objectives / in cover. Missile launcher gives you the ability for Flak stratagem, which is nice.
Causalis wrote: So, GW decided that I can't take those sweet new models with my Death Guard for some reason. Which means I have to use Black Legion or maybe generic CSM to use them.
Which brings me to my question:
How do you run troop CSM? I know Cultists are the meta but I want to use actual CSM in my army. Small 5 man squads with 2 special weapons?
The only way I feel they work is with plasma, combi plasma on a 5 man unit. I run them alpha legion so they're a little more survivable and they have enough punch to deal out a little damage.
Beta bolter makes them a little more useful for holding back field objectives.
I also bought some Putrid Blightlords from AoS to convert into Nurgle Chosen. I'll run them with Plasma guns and maybe some Power Claws. Should I go for 10 guys to have ablative wounds for the special weapons? Or just stick with 5?
I run a single 20 man team in my black legion. Make them mark of slaanesh and give them 5+ feel no pain, on top of 1 cp to reroll all failed hits if not near abby, and warptime if i want them to move faster, and vets of the long war plus endless canophy for a double hit, they can get work done while looking fluffy on the table. Not a popular setup, but i find that 2 squads of 40 cultists and 20 csm with abby and a sorcerer and you can pretty much cover the board, not worry about losing infantry to moral (between the strat and abbys fearless bubble) and put out some damage to anything that gets within 24".
On a completely different note, something i have not seen brought up yet....
The Lord Of Skulls is a demon that can be in the same detachment as a master of possession.....
A supreme command deatchment of
Master of possession
Sorcerer
Warpsmith
Lord of skulls
Is looking incredibly nasty to me if i am not missing anything.
Yup. A lot of synergies. And its quite fluffy too. Because surely the Lord of skulls is the biggest daemon Engine we have. Its not as OP as a Castellan in terms of shooting, but its far more fluffy than one. It probably makes sense to fit in other Daemon engines in the list as well though, if possible. Because otherwise, you are using a lot of points worth of HQ just to buff one Lord of Skulls.
Especially warpsmith. Having a warpsmith just screams going daemon engine as a theme.
If you’re going to run a block of 20 Possessed with Herald, you could use a MoN herald. And cast Virulent. And use VotLW. And possibly do 3-4 damage per hit.
So I'm gonna buy some Contemptors with Butcher Cannons. However, I'll have to mash the decimator butchers onto Contemptor arms, which means I'll have to buy some of those as well and magnetise them.
What is the 2nd best weapon option for Chaos Contemptors?
And alternatively, does anyone have a better solution than what I'm thinking?
Is Abby becoming a Lord of War? Cuz...that would be great...not for over-powered-ness, but just cuz I'd love to put him in a formation w/ Mortarion, Magnus and my Kytan...
Elric Greywolf wrote: So I'm gonna buy some Contemptors with Butcher Cannons. However, I'll have to mash the decimator butchers onto Contemptor arms, which means I'll have to buy some of those as well and magnetise them.
What is the 2nd best weapon option for Chaos Contemptors?
And alternatively, does anyone have a better solution than what I'm thinking?
Just use the Contemptor Autocannon arms? They're basically the same weapon.
Elric Greywolf wrote: So I'm gonna buy some Contemptors with Butcher Cannons. However, I'll have to mash the decimator butchers onto Contemptor arms, which means I'll have to buy some of those as well and magnetise them.
What is the 2nd best weapon option for Chaos Contemptors?
And alternatively, does anyone have a better solution than what I'm thinking?
You could always add a blade to the contemptor autocannon to give it a chaos feel. Looking in my bitz box there's some decent ones from the bloodcrusher kit.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Yup. A lot of synergies. And its quite fluffy too. Because surely the Lord of skulls is the biggest daemon Engine we have. Its not as OP as a Castellan in terms of shooting, but its far more fluffy than one. It probably makes sense to fit in other Daemon engines in the list as well though, if possible. Because otherwise, you are using a lot of points worth of HQ just to buff one Lord of Skulls.
Especially warpsmith. Having a warpsmith just screams going daemon engine as a theme.
Another approach to the same-Legion army - which could bring in a Daemons detachment and a DG, TS, or RaH detachment - could be a Possessed unit. Turn one charges are easily doable if they’re Slaaneshi. Or Noise Marines. Or Berzerkers in a rhino.
Xirax wrote: Hmm, it seems that zerker boxes on tracks must make room for a greater possessed each
Not sure why you'd want a Greater Possessed with Berzerkers. Their buff works on Daemons, and Berzerkers aren't. Now, if you are running Maulerfiends alongside your Zerker boxes, or maybe some Possessed with them (in which case why not just take more Zerkers), maybe they'd be useful.
Possessed might actually have a small niche in Emperor's Children armies, where no Berzerkers can be taken. Slaanesh Possessed have access to a lot of good buffs including Delightful Agonies, Greater Possessed, Masters of Possession, allied Heralds/Infernal Enrapturesses, and any of the existing CSM characters (Lords, Dark Apostles, etc.). Of course, EC are hardly competitive right now, and I'd still rather have Noise Marines in any case.
Xirax wrote: Hmm, it seems that zerker boxes on tracks must make room for a greater possessed each
Not sure why you'd want a Greater Possessed with Berzerkers. Their buff works on Daemons, and Berzerkers aren't. Now, if you are running Maulerfiends alongside your Zerker boxes, or maybe some Possessed with them (in which case why not just take more Zerkers), maybe they'd be useful.
Possessed might actually have a small niche in Emperor's Children armies, where no Berzerkers can be taken. Slaanesh Possessed have access to a lot of good buffs including Delightful Agonies, Greater Possessed, Masters of Possession, allied Heralds/Infernal Enrapturesses, and any of the existing CSM characters (Lords, Dark Apostles, etc.). Of course, EC are hardly competitive right now, and I'd still rather have Noise Marines in any case.
Xirax wrote: Hmm, it seems that zerker boxes on tracks must make room for a greater possessed each
Not sure why you'd want a Greater Possessed with Berzerkers. Their buff works on Daemons, and Berzerkers aren't. Now, if you are running Maulerfiends alongside your Zerker boxes, or maybe some Possessed with them (in which case why not just take more Zerkers), maybe they'd be useful.
Possessed might actually have a small niche in Emperor's Children armies, where no Berzerkers can be taken. Slaanesh Possessed have access to a lot of good buffs including Delightful Agonies, Greater Possessed, Masters of Possession, allied Heralds/Infernal Enrapturesses, and any of the existing CSM characters (Lords, Dark Apostles, etc.). Of course, EC are hardly competitive right now, and I'd still rather have Noise Marines in any case.
You don't need the Greater Possessed to actually do any buffing with the Berserker Marines. They're seeming like decent attackers on their own as a somewhat cheap supplement to throw into a Rhino with other stuff.
Berserkers work well in a termite. That leaves room for two 5 man squads plus a greater posessed and apostle. Take a second like me and just switch the DA for an exalted champion. Makes for one terrifying away team lol. I will probably run maulers/defilers along side them as well. Those greater posessed are blenders in their own right.
Greater possessed are 70p a pop. In the Daemonkin mini-codex only autocannon, plasmagun, plasma pistol, chainaxe and force stave increase base cost of the new models. Same points as before.
MoP is 90
Oblits 115
Venomcrawler 130
Btw,
Do you think Greater possessed would go nicely with a big unit of bloodletters? Tag along the new MoP and cast the infernal power.
Xirax wrote: Greater possessed are 70p a pop. In the Daemonkin mini-codex only autocannon, plasmagun, plasma pistol, chainaxe and force stave increase base cost of the new models. Same points as before.
MoP is 90
Oblits 115
Venomcrawler 130
Btw,
Do you think Greater possessed would go nicely with a big unit of bloodletters? Tag along the new MoP and cast the infernal power.
They don't do anything to Letters. GP's only buff units with all of the following keywords: LEGION, MARK OF CHAOS, DAEMON
I'm really pumped about this guy, I've been waiting for a proper daemon engine HQ for so long.
Size wise, he's definitely smaller than a mauler, so I sure hope he's sub 10wounds.
Bumping venom crawlers up to BS3 while they can move and shoot their assault guns makes them a lot more appealing as moving fire-support. They also explode easier, which is fun for cramming them into combat!
Defilers are still better point-for-point, but their guns are mostly afterthoughts. I'll take both though.
McGibs wrote: I'm really pumped about this guy, I've been waiting for a proper daemon engine HQ for so long.
Size wise, he's definitely smaller than a mauler, so I sure hope he's sub 10wounds.
Bumping venom crawlers up to BS3 while they can move and shoot their assault guns makes them a lot more appealing as moving fire-support. They also explode easier, which is fun for cramming them into combat!
Defilers are still better point-for-point, but their guns are mostly afterthoughts. I'll take both though.
Maybee the WB trait will become the new daemon engine trait?
Double that aura and you can cover a big radious for them.
I’m quite excited to try a new variation on a dark mechanicus with all these options. Its been a favorite theme of mine for chaos armies for a while. The new HQ in particular has caught my interest, as it seems to have the sort of abilities lists are built around, though if it crosses the 10 wound threshold it’ll likely end up sitting in my shelf.
Obliterators are also now reaching the point I don’t feel as if they underperform compared to terminator deepstrikes, and I’m curious if anyone will use the single oblit option this edition, given the reasons for doing so in the last have largely been eliminated.
I am also unsure what the Venomcrawler offers that other daemon engines don’t. The ability to shoot and move with taking an Accuracy hit I suppose, but maulerfiends seem to simply be better once they get in melee, which is where you seem want both to eventually end up. Depends on the pricing for the total package I suppose, if some of the rumored costs include the price of both guns I can definitely see way more uses, but I’ve yet to actually see a source on those.
All the online reviews seem to indicate that the crawlers are 130pts, weapons included.
I think they'll hit a good middleground between mauler and forgefiend. Everything is a bit of a tradeoff between all the engines:
Defilers: Durable as hell, and hits like a truck, but lackluster shooting (also expensive by an inch)
Maulers: Good anti-horde/elite, and speed, but degrades in pretty terrible ways (speed and strength). Can easily get caught out of position with nothing to do.
Forgefiends: Decent shooting (now, with some buffs) but not mobile or choppy.
Heldrakes: Fast as hell, but weak damage output.
Venom Crawler: Smack dab in the middleground. It's fast, it's choppy and shooty enough (and can move and shoot accuratly), it's still got decent durability (more than dreads), and it's got some extra special gimicks (summoning, better exploding, extra healing).
Comparitivly, I think the crawler is a nice jack of all trades soldier. It's not a specialist, but it's also not any more expensive, and it's damage output seems perfectly capable of tackling most targets (unlike something like a heldrake).
Not Online!!! wrote: I don't know defilers hitting on 3+ and maulers seem very nice.
To bad dakka versions didn't get anything out of it.
Am I reading this wrong? The +1 to hit rolls counts for shooting as well, doesn't it?
Looks like.
The new guy is probably pointed for combat so hanging back will be unappetizing.. but could get an enhanced round of shooting off.
If his CC stats are decent he'll make a good counter charge unit if somebody tries to get close and tie up your engines in close combat.
Daemon Engine shooting could actually be good now. Daemonforge + the buff from this guy will be very nice. Don't have my book in front of me but can a Slaanesh-marked Daemon Engine use Endless Cacophony, or is that infantry and bikes only?
Maybe, if this guy has 9 wounds and not 10... Otherwise he'll get targeted first and the whole "daemon engines" list concept once again crumbles...
He'll have an Invul and if we are that concerned, there's Slaanesh + Agonies.
It'll be about threat saturation though. I posted this in the rumors thread, but I'm thinking:
1. Alpha Battalion with this new dude, Biker Lord, and 3 Maulerfiends and/or Blood Slaughterers
2. Spearhead with either just Abigail or one of the new guys + a Lord (or still Abigail) backing up 3 Forgefiends and/or Decimators
Not Online!!! wrote: I don't know defilers hitting on 3+ and maulers seem very nice.
To bad dakka versions didn't get anything out of it.
Am I reading this wrong? The +1 to hit rolls counts for shooting as well, doesn't it?
Looks like.
The new guy is probably pointed for combat so hanging back will be unappetizing.. but could get an enhanced round of shooting off.
If his CC stats are decent he'll make a good counter charge unit if somebody tries to get close and tie up your engines in close combat.
Daemon Engine shooting could actually be good now. Daemonforge + the buff from this guy will be very nice. Don't have my book in front of me but can a Slaanesh-marked Daemon Engine use Endless Cacophony, or is that infantry and bikes only?
Infantry only
The viability of the new guy is completely dependent on his wounds count. Under ten, and he’s great. Ten or more, he’s pointless.
He's fine at over 10 wounds depending on cost and his durability. It's silly to say otherwise. Plenty of things in my army are amazing and can be targeted.
If he is under 10 wounds he's going to questionable stats. That's a 5 wounds HQ on a DE back, so you guys think that DE is a 4 wound model? Besides there is already a winged demon prince for that.
I personally think it's plain lazy design and silly seeing monstrous or vehicle classed models that can not be targeted. I'd be fine with a more durable model.
None of his auras are that amazing so far, so if he has a decent invuln and probably regenerates then I honestly don't care if he attracts fire. They have to shoot something, sometimes it's better saturating them with targets.
It's hard to see this dude replacing a DA and Exalted champ for buffing combat engines anyway. Honestly his +1 to hit is kind of meh. Butcher canon contemptors are already cheaper then decimators lol, why would you spend even more to make a decimator shoot like an already cheaper contemptor? It's even worse on a forge fiend who at this point needs a total rewrite. Hades auto canons had better bump up to heavy 6 in the next codex because that thing is a mess.
The model he has the most synergy with is the new venom crawler, which shouldn't be a surprise.
Well I don't play forgeworld so I don't have certain daemon engine options. I do have a forgefiend I havent used for the longest time and I would love it if it could be usable again.
The aura makes a forgefiend 3+ BS and that is great. i don't see how it doesn't help a forgefiend.
Red Corsair wrote: He's fine at over 10 wounds depending on cost and his durability. It's silly to say otherwise. Plenty of things in my army are amazing and can be targeted.
If he is under 10 wounds he's going to questionable stats. That's a 5 wounds HQ on a DE back, so you guys think that DE is a 4 wound model? Besides there is already a winged demon prince for that.
I personally think it's plain lazy design and silly seeing monstrous or vehicle classed models that can not be targeted. I'd be fine with a more durable model.
None of his auras are that amazing so far, so if he has a decent invuln and probably regenerates then I honestly don't care if he attracts fire. They have to shoot something, sometimes it's better saturating them with targets.
It's hard to see this dude replacing a DA and Exalted champ for buffing combat engines anyway. Honestly his +1 to hit is kind of meh. Butcher canon contemptors are already cheaper then decimators lol, why would you spend even more to make a decimator shoot like an already cheaper contemptor? It's even worse on a forge fiend who at this point needs a total rewrite. Hades auto canons had better bump up to heavy 6 in the next codex because that thing is a mess.
The model he has the most synergy with is the new venom crawler, which shouldn't be a surprise.
Two things to keep in mind:
1. His aura is strictly better than the Lord's, so the two in tandem makes sense
2. Dark Apostles and Champs can't actually keep up with the melee Engines, and obviously they're useless for the shooting ones.
The base of that new Lord of Discordant looks quite large. We could fit a fair number of daemon engines within a 6 inch bubble due to its large base if you ask me. It even comes with a possibility of using an autocannon if you plan to sit it with ranged shooting daemon engines.
Combine it with a master of possession and a warp smith, and you get a HQ centre giving out potentially:
1) Reroll 1 to hit and to wound (MOP psychic)
2) 4+ invul (MOP psychic cursed earth)
3) warp smith can can repair. (and a psychic from MOP can heal 3 at the cost of 1 hp to the warpsmith)
4) The Lord of DIscordant giving +1 to hit
So shooty daemon Engines (non forgeworld) include lascannon Defiler with havoc launchers, forgefiend and lord of skulls.
So, put surround that HQ core with 3 forgefiends in front, 3 defilers at the back, and a lord of skulls. It won't be the shootiest army out there, but it will shoot enough. More importantly, its a pretty resilient army, and if anything gets injured, you have the warpsmith and infernal regeneration and even that psychic to heal in a pinch.
And stuff that tries to get into melee with this mass shooty daemon engine death ball won't have a very good time... not just because the lord of discordant looks to be swinging a mean weapon. But three defilers, and a lord of skulls are enough to give even a knight gallant problems.
Eldenfirefly wrote: The base of that new Lord of Discordant looks quite large. We could fit a fair number of daemon engines within a 6 inch bubble due to its large base if you ask me. It even comes with a possibility of using an autocannon if you plan to sit it with ranged shooting daemon engines.
Combine it with a master of possession and a warp smith, and you get a HQ centre giving out potentially:
1) Reroll 1 to hit and to wound (MOP psychic)
2) 4+ invul (MOP psychic cursed earth)
3) warp smith can can repair. (and a psychic from MOP can heal 3 at the cost of 1 hp to the warpsmith)
4) The Lord of DIscordant giving +1 to hit
So shooty daemon Engines (non forgeworld) include lascannon Defiler with havoc launchers, forgefiend and lord of skulls.
So, put surround that HQ core with 3 forgefiends in front, 3 defilers at the back, and a lord of skulls. It won't be the shootiest army out there, but it will shoot enough. More importantly, its a pretty resilient army, and if anything gets injured, you have the warpsmith and infernal regeneration and even that psychic to heal in a pinch.
And stuff that tries to get into melee with this mass shooty daemon engine death ball won't have a very good time... not just because the lord of discordant looks to be swinging a mean weapon. But three defilers, and a lord of skulls are enough to give even a knight gallant problems.
i'd personally replace the Warpsmith with a regular lord in case you roll badly on the MoP, but yes that could work.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Warpsmiths are super cheap though. You can probably manage to squeeze one in without losing anything.
also true and potentially feed from him for the heal power, for double heals.
That said hitting on 3's and rerolling 1's makes this quite a fun little deathball.
IF the price is right for the new spiderrider
Red Corsair wrote: He's fine at over 10 wounds depending on cost and his durability. It's silly to say otherwise. Plenty of things in my army are amazing and can be targeted.
If he is under 10 wounds he's going to questionable stats. That's a 5 wounds HQ on a DE back, so you guys think that DE is a 4 wound model? Besides there is already a winged demon prince for that.
I personally think it's plain lazy design and silly seeing monstrous or vehicle classed models that can not be targeted. I'd be fine with a more durable model.
None of his auras are that amazing so far, so if he has a decent invuln and probably regenerates then I honestly don't care if he attracts fire. They have to shoot something, sometimes it's better saturating them with targets.
It's hard to see this dude replacing a DA and Exalted champ for buffing combat engines anyway. Honestly his +1 to hit is kind of meh. Butcher canon contemptors are already cheaper then decimators lol, why would you spend even more to make a decimator shoot like an already cheaper contemptor? It's even worse on a forge fiend who at this point needs a total rewrite. Hades auto canons had better bump up to heavy 6 in the next codex because that thing is a mess.
The model he has the most synergy with is the new venom crawler, which shouldn't be a surprise.
Two things to keep in mind:
1. His aura is strictly better than the Lord's, so the two in tandem makes sense
2. Dark Apostles and Champs can't actually keep up with the melee Engines, and obviously they're useless for the shooting ones.
1. Sure, but that's a shed load of points to fix shooters, which was my point. He wants to move forward, so he should be with those engines. I just don't see the point in taking garbage ranged DE's over a cheaper contemptor when you need this guy to baby sit as well.
2. I still like DA and exalted champ better, I am having fun with termites though, so I understand why it's harder if your not, but it still isn't impossible. Start them nearly level and advance with them, the 6" range and massive length of the DE's base makes up a lot of difference, won't help if your using warp time on a mauler, but I think the whole point of this guy is to move up in unison anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote: The base of that new Lord of Discordant looks quite large. We could fit a fair number of daemon engines within a 6 inch bubble due to its large base if you ask me. It even comes with a possibility of using an autocannon if you plan to sit it with ranged shooting daemon engines.
Combine it with a master of possession and a warp smith, and you get a HQ centre giving out potentially:
1) Reroll 1 to hit and to wound (MOP psychic)
2) 4+ invul (MOP psychic cursed earth)
3) warp smith can can repair. (and a psychic from MOP can heal 3 at the cost of 1 hp to the warpsmith)
4) The Lord of DIscordant giving +1 to hit
So shooty daemon Engines (non forgeworld) include lascannon Defiler with havoc launchers, forgefiend and lord of skulls.
So, put surround that HQ core with 3 forgefiends in front, 3 defilers at the back, and a lord of skulls. It won't be the shootiest army out there, but it will shoot enough. More importantly, its a pretty resilient army, and if anything gets injured, you have the warpsmith and infernal regeneration and even that psychic to heal in a pinch.
And stuff that tries to get into melee with this mass shooty daemon engine death ball won't have a very good time... not just because the lord of discordant looks to be swinging a mean weapon. But three defilers, and a lord of skulls are enough to give even a knight gallant problems.
You would be using a 90pt psycher + this new guys (x)pts to try to band aid patch a 148pt forge fiend.
A contemptor with twin butcher canons is 138 and already hits on 2's and a 70pt lord gets him reroll 1's.
I love my forge fiend conversions but they need a rewrite because even with their current cost they just don't really cut it.
GW broke my heart with the Khorne mower price hike lol. That dude needed to go down not up. He doesn't fit around terrain so sadly you use his shooting more then combat and he just doesn't compete with knights in that department.
Red Corsair wrote: He's fine at over 10 wounds depending on cost and his durability. It's silly to say otherwise. Plenty of things in my army are amazing and can be targeted.
If he is under 10 wounds he's going to questionable stats. That's a 5 wounds HQ on a DE back, so you guys think that DE is a 4 wound model? Besides there is already a winged demon prince for that.
I personally think it's plain lazy design and silly seeing monstrous or vehicle classed models that can not be targeted. I'd be fine with a more durable model.
None of his auras are that amazing so far, so if he has a decent invuln and probably regenerates then I honestly don't care if he attracts fire. They have to shoot something, sometimes it's better saturating them with targets.
It's hard to see this dude replacing a DA and Exalted champ for buffing combat engines anyway. Honestly his +1 to hit is kind of meh. Butcher canon contemptors are already cheaper then decimators lol, why would you spend even more to make a decimator shoot like an already cheaper contemptor? It's even worse on a forge fiend who at this point needs a total rewrite. Hades auto canons had better bump up to heavy 6 in the next codex because that thing is a mess.
The model he has the most synergy with is the new venom crawler, which shouldn't be a surprise.
Two things to keep in mind:
1. His aura is strictly better than the Lord's, so the two in tandem makes sense
2. Dark Apostles and Champs can't actually keep up with the melee Engines, and obviously they're useless for the shooting ones.
1. Sure, but that's a shed load of points to fix shooters, which was my point. He wants to move forward, so he should be with those engines. I just don't see the point in taking garbage ranged DE's over a cheaper contemptor when you need this guy to baby sit as well.
2. I still like DA and exalted champ better, I am having fun with termites though, so I understand why it's harder if your not, but it still isn't impossible. Start them nearly level and advance with them, the 6" range and massive length of the DE's base makes up a lot of difference, won't help if your using warp time on a mauler, but I think the whole point of this guy is to move up in unison anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote: The base of that new Lord of Discordant looks quite large. We could fit a fair number of daemon engines within a 6 inch bubble due to its large base if you ask me. It even comes with a possibility of using an autocannon if you plan to sit it with ranged shooting daemon engines.
Combine it with a master of possession and a warp smith, and you get a HQ centre giving out potentially:
1) Reroll 1 to hit and to wound (MOP psychic)
2) 4+ invul (MOP psychic cursed earth)
3) warp smith can can repair. (and a psychic from MOP can heal 3 at the cost of 1 hp to the warpsmith)
4) The Lord of DIscordant giving +1 to hit
So shooty daemon Engines (non forgeworld) include lascannon Defiler with havoc launchers, forgefiend and lord of skulls.
So, put surround that HQ core with 3 forgefiends in front, 3 defilers at the back, and a lord of skulls. It won't be the shootiest army out there, but it will shoot enough. More importantly, its a pretty resilient army, and if anything gets injured, you have the warpsmith and infernal regeneration and even that psychic to heal in a pinch.
And stuff that tries to get into melee with this mass shooty daemon engine death ball won't have a very good time... not just because the lord of discordant looks to be swinging a mean weapon. But three defilers, and a lord of skulls are enough to give even a knight gallant problems.
You would be using a 90pt psycher + this new guys (x)pts to try to band aid patch a 148pt forge fiend.
A contemptor with twin butcher canons is 138 and already hits on 2's and a 70pt lord gets him reroll 1's.
I love my forge fiend conversions but they need a rewrite because even with their current cost they just don't really cut it.
GW broke my heart with the Khorne mower price hike lol. That dude needed to go down not up. He doesn't fit around terrain so sadly you use his shooting more then combat and he just doesn't compete with knights in that department.
You're really suggesting using a 140 point model to transport those though, so that's more points on top of what's already an expensive list. Of course you can load it up with extra stuff, but at that point it isn't focused and it'll be relatively easy to take out. Meanwhile, the new dude and Biker Lord don't need any additional help.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Warpsmiths are super cheap though. You can probably manage to squeeze one in without losing anything.
also true and potentially feed from him for the heal power, for double heals.
That said hitting on 3's and rerolling 1's makes this quite a fun little deathball.
IF the price is right for the new spiderrider
Hmm, combo Iron Warriors relic to heal those taken off wounds?
Then Warlord Trait for Abigail-lite?
I actually would've taken WB for the trait, that would give a 12 inche aura for spiderrider if he is indeed 9 w.
That said an Abi lite with rechargable w is a great idea for a daemon dakka Castle and if you also field a cultist blob you get a surprise last Minute ob Grab.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'd do Word Bearers if I were doing the summoning castle instead.
Well nothing stopping you in such a Castle to summon, considering that you will field a MoP and a warpsmith plus this one, i'd imagine you could summon one or the other Daemon no?
Also daemon engines do have marks right?
I like the Warlord trait don't get me wrong, but it still stings we can't get full rerolls like Black Templars can. It'll cost them a bunch of CP, but they make an effective castle.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I like the Warlord trait don't get me wrong, but it still stings we can't get full rerolls like Black Templars can. It'll cost them a bunch of CP, but they make an effective castle.
I would fully recommend IW though if GW pulls their Fingers out where the Sun don't shine and spread the traits/ give us traits for vehicles.
Some things that a MoP can choose to put the Sacrifice MW onto, at least until it gets FAQ’d:
- Itself (if his Cultist screen is swept)
- the unit it’s healing (if his Cultist screen is swept and there’s snipers around making self-damage dangerous, effectively this means heal D3-1W)
- an enemy MODEL he’s in melee with, or is just outside of melee range from (you pick it. Goodbye, enemy sergeant, melts gunner, ect. Even against multi-Wound model units, this can commit your opponent to putting subsequent wounds on the same model.
lindsay40k wrote: - the unit it’s healing (if his Cultist screen is swept and there’s snipers around, effectively this means heal D3-1W)
Hm... So if GW is sloppy and the new Lord has both the Warpsmith and Daemon Engine tags you could heal him a flat 2 by targeting him with both sides of Sacrifice?
That's a neat thought.
And the suggestion in general to sacrifice the healed unit is a smart backup plan to keep in mind.
lindsay40k wrote: - the unit it’s healing (if his Cultist screen is swept and there’s snipers around, effectively this means heal D3-1W)
Hm... So if GW is sloppy and the new Lord has both the Warpsmith and Daemon Engine tags you could heal him a flat 2 by targeting him with both sides of Sacrifice?
That's a neat thought.
And the suggestion in general to sacrifice the healed unit is a smart backup plan to keep in mind.
So here is a problem i am trying to find a solution to. Deathwatch squads of vets with storm shields, storm bolters, and frag cannons. I am thinking mass small arms fire. I did 18 wounds to a tank commander last night from 40 cultists (and 6 cp spent), but thats a 1 trick pony, its not going to work more than 1 time a game max. Any ideas?
You know, the more I think about it, the more I feel there are good tactical merits to deep striking lone Oblits deep behind enemy lines.
It is kinda similar to the Termicide concept we used to have. Back then, it was 3 melta termis for slightly over 100 points. Now we have a lone Oblit which costs 115 but has 6 shots. And with the new improvements to its melee, you can deep strike it down, shoot something, and then try and make the 9 inch charge into something else.
The previous iteration of Oblit has weapons with ap 0, so close combat was distinctly bad for them. They could hang in there given their inherent 2+ save, but it would be easy to tarpit them with any average unit. But now, their melee is actually quite decent at taking out most things - even a vehicle!
And while it makes the most sense to stack stuff like cacophony, prescience, veterans of the long war on a unit of three. There is nothing to say that If you are running just two single obilts, you can still choose to use vets or cacophony on just one Oblit. Its not as efficient, but 12 shots from one Oblit is the equivalent of one of the old squad of three oblit squad firing.
Consider the opponent has an artillery tank and carelessly left two characters open to shooting from the backfield. You deep strike in one lone Oblit. Shoot and kill one character with 6 shots, cacophony and kill another character with shooting. Then you make a 9 inche charge into the artillery tank. You just negated three separate units within one turn, and he still has to get rid of your oblit too, which given its increased toughness and hp now, is not that simple. You really need to unload heavy weapons into an Oblit to do it.
And if you managed to land into or charge into terrain. Then your Oblit now has a 1+ save against shooting too.
Putting 3 Oblits into one squad maximises the efficiency of course. But its so obvious and its all or nothing. Your opponent knows you have a huge hammer coming down and you are planning to stack all sorts of nasty strategems on it when it does.
Also, is it easier to neutralise a unit of 3 oblits or two seperate units of one single Oblit each deep struck far away from each other? I would say the first is far easier to neutralise the unit of three.
Maybe the opponent has smash captains in the midfield or the equivalent. Regardless, a unit of 3 oblits is too juicy a target not to counter charge with one of his good melee units. On the other hand, if its a lone Oblit treated like termicide deep struck deep behind enemy lines. Would he want to pull his smash captain all the way back to kill one Oblit? Now it becomes a far trickier question.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote: So here is a problem i am trying to find a solution to. Deathwatch squads of vets with storm shields, storm bolters, and frag cannons. I am thinking mass small arms fire. I did 18 wounds to a tank commander last night from 40 cultists (and 6 cp spent), but thats a 1 trick pony, its not going to work more than 1 time a game max. Any ideas?
Well, death hex works too, because it takes away their Invul.
^^ Death Hex isn’t a solution to high invuln mid range gunners IMO. Too unreliable, outside of expensive TS casters, and too short ranged. What it is is a scarecrow that makes Thunderwolves and Wulfen and suchlike falter and not run pell-mell at you without DTW coverage, whilst your Death Hexer smites.
As for taking out units like the frag cannon squad - think our best bet is VOTLW & EC on a unit with a high rate of small arms fire. Bikers, Cultist hordes, also honourable mention for allied Pink Horrors with Daemonspark. The former can even play keep away to be fairly sure of getting the first blow.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Smite spam could work, if the unit’s not screened.
So, taking a bit and hoping the new lord is not somehow ridiculously 10+ wounds, I think he's the right clincher for a legit force of daemon engines.
I tend to think this is going to be best composed of a baseline of the lord with a defiler (our best non-kytan candidate for daemonforge), along with a daemon prince (all will have comparable moves). Then it becomes the question of the new tick (which will have a much better firing profile moving forward going from a 4+ to a 3+) or mauler fiends. In either case, I think a pair would be good, though...honestly maybe even one of each.
Beyond that, I actually think the best bet is to pair it up with a pure slaanesh detachment. Likely a cheap brigade.. Weirdly enough, I like a herald on seeker chariot for this; I think they will be worth it for their own profile, the +1 strength to all of those units and even hysterical frenzy or symphony of pain. The big reason though is granting advance+charge to all of those units, as well as the potential for the bonus attack on wound rolls of 6 strategem. I think a KoS would also be a-okay going along with this group since it ends up with a very similar profile defense-wise to the rest of them. 3 daemonette units as a chaff then also works well.
lindsay40k wrote: ^^ Death Hex isn’t a solution to high invuln mid range gunners IMO. Too unreliable, outside of expensive TS casters, and too short ranged. What it is is a scarecrow that makes Thunderwolves and Wulfen and suchlike falter and not run pell-mell at you without DTW coverage, whilst your Death Hexer smites.
As for taking out units like the frag cannon squad - think our best bet is VOTLW & EC on a unit with a high rate of small arms fire. Bikers, Cultist hordes, also honourable mention for allied Pink Horrors with Daemonspark. The former can even play keep away to be fairly sure of getting the first blow.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Smite spam could work, if the unit’s not screened.
Death watch vets almost always have a vanguard with jump pack so they can fall back and shoot. So a flack missile + demon shell from else where + any flavor of psychic powers ends them easily. Last thing a chaos player should use is massed shooting. They can easily grab cover or use the terminator to tank shots, with two wounds and a cp reroll your looking a ~48 wounds prior to saves just to down that A hole first.
The 1st answer to DW vets with shields is and always will be mortal wounds. Chaos can do that numerous ways.
Red Corsair wrote: He's fine at over 10 wounds depending on cost and his durability. It's silly to say otherwise. Plenty of things in my army are amazing and can be targeted.
If he is under 10 wounds he's going to questionable stats. That's a 5 wounds HQ on a DE back, so you guys think that DE is a 4 wound model? Besides there is already a winged demon prince for that.
I personally think it's plain lazy design and silly seeing monstrous or vehicle classed models that can not be targeted. I'd be fine with a more durable model.
None of his auras are that amazing so far, so if he has a decent invuln and probably regenerates then I honestly don't care if he attracts fire. They have to shoot something, sometimes it's better saturating them with targets.
It's hard to see this dude replacing a DA and Exalted champ for buffing combat engines anyway. Honestly his +1 to hit is kind of meh. Butcher canon contemptors are already cheaper then decimators lol, why would you spend even more to make a decimator shoot like an already cheaper contemptor? It's even worse on a forge fiend who at this point needs a total rewrite. Hades auto canons had better bump up to heavy 6 in the next codex because that thing is a mess.
The model he has the most synergy with is the new venom crawler, which shouldn't be a surprise.
Two things to keep in mind:
1. His aura is strictly better than the Lord's, so the two in tandem makes sense
2. Dark Apostles and Champs can't actually keep up with the melee Engines, and obviously they're useless for the shooting ones.
1. Sure, but that's a shed load of points to fix shooters, which was my point. He wants to move forward, so he should be with those engines. I just don't see the point in taking garbage ranged DE's over a cheaper contemptor when you need this guy to baby sit as well.
2. I still like DA and exalted champ better, I am having fun with termites though, so I understand why it's harder if your not, but it still isn't impossible. Start them nearly level and advance with them, the 6" range and massive length of the DE's base makes up a lot of difference, won't help if your using warp time on a mauler, but I think the whole point of this guy is to move up in unison anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote: The base of that new Lord of Discordant looks quite large. We could fit a fair number of daemon engines within a 6 inch bubble due to its large base if you ask me. It even comes with a possibility of using an autocannon if you plan to sit it with ranged shooting daemon engines.
Combine it with a master of possession and a warp smith, and you get a HQ centre giving out potentially:
1) Reroll 1 to hit and to wound (MOP psychic)
2) 4+ invul (MOP psychic cursed earth)
3) warp smith can can repair. (and a psychic from MOP can heal 3 at the cost of 1 hp to the warpsmith)
4) The Lord of DIscordant giving +1 to hit
So shooty daemon Engines (non forgeworld) include lascannon Defiler with havoc launchers, forgefiend and lord of skulls.
So, put surround that HQ core with 3 forgefiends in front, 3 defilers at the back, and a lord of skulls. It won't be the shootiest army out there, but it will shoot enough. More importantly, its a pretty resilient army, and if anything gets injured, you have the warpsmith and infernal regeneration and even that psychic to heal in a pinch.
And stuff that tries to get into melee with this mass shooty daemon engine death ball won't have a very good time... not just because the lord of discordant looks to be swinging a mean weapon. But three defilers, and a lord of skulls are enough to give even a knight gallant problems.
You would be using a 90pt psycher + this new guys (x)pts to try to band aid patch a 148pt forge fiend.
A contemptor with twin butcher canons is 138 and already hits on 2's and a 70pt lord gets him reroll 1's.
I love my forge fiend conversions but they need a rewrite because even with their current cost they just don't really cut it.
GW broke my heart with the Khorne mower price hike lol. That dude needed to go down not up. He doesn't fit around terrain so sadly you use his shooting more then combat and he just doesn't compete with knights in that department.
You're really suggesting using a 140 point model to transport those though, so that's more points on top of what's already an expensive list. Of course you can load it up with extra stuff, but at that point it isn't focused and it'll be relatively easy to take out. Meanwhile, the new dude and Biker Lord don't need any additional help.
Obviously you fill them though, I mean the idea is to overload them with threats rushing at them. Literally none of the demon engines kill through horde well. So to me the obvious answer are berserkers + characters. It's 134, but its also more then that, it's T8 with solid combat punch on its own as well as the fire power. The name of the game game is target saturation. So why not go a bit further is my angle.
That said, why not both? You could easily have a DE spear baring down on them with the new guy in the fold AND have various characters and berserkers spilling out of death drills lol.
lindsay40k wrote: ^^ Death Hex isn’t a solution to high invuln mid range gunners IMO. Too unreliable, outside of expensive TS casters, and too short ranged. What it is is a scarecrow that makes Thunderwolves and Wulfen and suchlike falter and not run pell-mell at you without DTW coverage, whilst your Death Hexer smites.
As for taking out units like the frag cannon squad - think our best bet is VOTLW & EC on a unit with a high rate of small arms fire. Bikers, Cultist hordes, also honourable mention for allied Pink Horrors with Daemonspark. The former can even play keep away to be fairly sure of getting the first blow.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Smite spam could work, if the unit’s not screened.
Death watch vets almost always have a vanguard with jump pack so they can fall back and shoot. So a flack missile + demon shell from else where + any flavor of psychic powers ends them easily. Last thing a chaos player should use is massed shooting. They can easily grab cover or use the terminator to tank shots, with two wounds and a cp reroll your looking a ~48 wounds prior to saves just to down that A hole first.
The 1st answer to DW vets with shields is and always will be mortal wounds. Chaos can do that numerous ways.
What you really want is HRoF with low AP. I bet the new Rotor Cannons will help fulfill that need.
Forgefiends would help with that if they could hit the broad side of a barn. One with the new dude and Daemonforge only kills 2.3 of them. Someone made mention of them flying away from melee, but you don't have to worry about that if you hurt enough of them.
Tomorrow I'll face some Orks in a 2000p match. I'll bring along the contents of the Shadowspear box (yes, even the Marines), some Chosen, a Defiler, a Maulerfiend, a Warpsmith and some Death Guard.
Plan is to rush the Daemon Engines up the field, supported by the MoP, Warpsmith and Greater Posessed. MoP will cast the re-roll power and Cursed Earth, Warpsmith will heal (he also has dual Flamers to deter charges). I also have a second Sorcerer with Warptime and Prescience to sling something up the board and likely buff the Oblits.
I'll give you a recap of how the new stuff performed tomorrow.
lindsay40k wrote: ^^ Death Hex isn’t a solution to high invuln mid range gunners IMO. Too unreliable, outside of expensive TS casters, and too short ranged. What it is is a scarecrow that makes Thunderwolves and Wulfen and suchlike falter and not run pell-mell at you without DTW coverage, whilst your Death Hexer smites.
As for taking out units like the frag cannon squad - think our best bet is VOTLW & EC on a unit with a high rate of small arms fire. Bikers, Cultist hordes, also honourable mention for allied Pink Horrors with Daemonspark. The former can even play keep away to be fairly sure of getting the first blow.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Smite spam could work, if the unit’s not screened.
I think this is why it is almost mandatory to take Ahriman in a chaos soup list. Cabalistic focus plus his native +1 mean death hex is reliable and much more efficient in taking down 3++ targets than even doom and jinx (if you have some decent AP weapons).
KiloFiX wrote: If you’re going to run a block of 20 Possessed with Herald, you could use a MoN herald. And cast Virulent. And use VotLW. And possibly do 3-4 damage per hit.
I only seem to be able to work out possessed getting 3 damage on 4+ (3+ if Death Guard).
Virulent Blessing adds 1 to wound rolls made for that unit in the Fight phase. Furthermore, wound rolls of 7+ made for that unit in the Fight phase inflict double damage. Then Locus of Virulence means each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for a NURGLE DAEMON unit within 6" of any friendly model with the Locus of Virulence, that attack inflicts 1 additional damage... so 2+1.
VoTLW + 1 to wound
Plaguebringer +1 strength
*If Death Guard Blades of Putrefaction means +1 wound too so activates on 3+ instead of 4+
I'm definetly making Possessed the focus of my next lists as i have 20 Nurgle themed Gal Vorbak I painstakingly converted and I'm now converting up some Nurgle Greater Possessed using all my Nurlge bits I have left over... the decision I have is do I run Death Guard Possessed and go with Blades + Vets or do I run with 20 man units using Renegades to move, adavance + charge and get access to Warptime from a Sorcerer and add in those juicy Greater Possessed? With a Plaguebringer and Greater Possessed my Possessed can be S7 but then they don't get access to Blades + Vets. If I go with Death Guard my gut says not to run them on foot as they're too slow at just M7 but I can put 2 x 9 man units in 2 Dreadclaws and rag them up, Dreadclaws are amazing in DG lists as after they drop the Possessed off they can cause real problems and then when they die you pop them with Putrid Detonation to do multiple mortal wounds.
Anyone got any advice or input? GW put me in a real tough position here as I do really want to run Greater Possessed...
@Kuklops - do you have a blog with those Nurgle Gal Vorbak?Sounds awesome
On the topic of Nurgle Possessed and buffs... I think the CSM+LoP option might be competing with a DG contingent.
Access to improved Advances (pretty sweet if a third detachment brings a Warptimer) has great synergy with M7 & a Gnarlmaw (T1 charges are easily doable). A Plaguecaster can give them Blades of Putrefaction for *another* +1 to wound, and Putrescent Vitality stacks with Poxbringer to give them S7 T5. Add a Tallyman to reroll hits and recoup some of your VOTLWCPs and they fill out a Vanguard.
After that, you can throw in some Blighthaulers to keep them in cover and provide decent tough firepower, and give the CSM detachment some Oblits to enjoy the Gnarlmaw or Blighthaulers, and Epidemius to feed with all this investment in Nurgle Daemon units...
Only problem is this entails four detachments (ND, DG, CSM, Forts), which isn’t ideal in a tourney setting.
lindsay40k wrote: @Kuklops - do you have a blog with those Nurgle Gal Vorbak?Sounds awesome
On the topic of Nurgle Possessed and buffs... I think the CSM+LoP option might be competing with a DG contingent.
Access to improved Advances (pretty sweet if a third detachment brings a Warptimer) has great synergy with M7 & a Gnarlmaw (T1 charges are easily doable). A Plaguecaster can give them Blades of Putrefaction for *another* +1 to wound, and Putrescent Vitality stacks with Poxbringer to give them S7 T5. Add a Tallyman to reroll hits and recoup some of your VOTLWCPs and they fill out a Vanguard.
After that, you can throw in some Blighthaulers to keep them in cover and provide decent tough firepower, and give the CSM detachment some Oblits to enjoy the Gnarlmaw or Blighthaulers, and Epidemius to feed with all this investment in Nurgle Daemon units...
Only problem is this entails four detachments (ND, DG, CSM, Forts), which isn’t ideal in a tourney setting.
I don't have pics of them up yet as they're still unpainted and a few have various conversions I'm half way through (adding ball bearings to some of the armour to make them more Nurgly for example), my hobby time has reduced drastically recently but they are next on my table to get done, along with some of my other Death Guard stuff. I'm painting them in DG colours to keep all my models uniform, then I can use them as DG, Renegades, AL or whatever. I will get pics up on here by the summer though as I'm very happy with how they're looking.
Back to Possessed. I don't want to take 4 detachments, my friends and I usually play 1250-1500 point games to keep games quick and so we can all play multiple games in an afternoon/evening, when I play tournaments in England they tend to be 2000 points but limit you to 3 detachments and in doubles tournaments they make you take a 1k list first that you build on for 2k... so all of those things mean I really need to limit my army design to 2 or 3 detachments. I've used Possessed several times in 8th and not been too impressed, the problem they have is getting into melee, once they're there they're not Berserkers but they're pretty good at killing most things so long as you don't roll a 1 for their attacks (thanks GW).
Now, starting with a base of units at around <1250 points I'm thinking about the DG bonus for being Battle Forged, do I really care? In this list no, sure the Greater Possessed +1S won't buff the Possessed (lol, DG Possessed are obv not real Daemons) but they're there as mini Lords to Heroic Invervention into stuff they can beat up, in fact I'd say they're better than Lords as they're expendable units, I can always get +1S from the Plaguebringers and +1 to wound from Blades, +1 wound from Virulent Blessing, & +1 wound from VoTLW is better against high T units anyway.
I need a Nurgle Daemons detachment because the Gnarlmaw needs the possibility to Deep Strike using Denziens of the Warp if I'm expecting to get charged and need to fall back and charge myself (say againt GSC or Orks), it can be deployed in deployment when playing gunlines and the move/advance/charge (Warptime) is more useful.
Nurgle detachment (aprox 840pts)
Malignant Plaguecaster
Master of Possession/Sorcerer (is Malefic better than Heretic... depends on need for Warptime/Death Hex I guess)
Possessed x 20
Tallyman x 1
Greater Possessed x 2
Daemons Detachment (377pts)
Plaguebringer
Plaguebringer
Nurglings x 3
Nurglings x 3
Nurglings x 3
Gnarlmaw x 1
Tallyman + Blades + VoTLW + Virulent Blessing + Locus mean the Possessed should be re-rolling hits and wounding T8 on 2+ with wounds of 3+ doing D3. Greater Possessed should be doing Dd3+1 so potentially 4 damage from them too. Relic will prob be Corruption on a Plaguebringer as they're not too shabby in melee too... or maybe I should run Epidemius?
The only issue I have is that the Plaguebringers, Greater Possessed, Talyman can get left behind if Warptime throws the Possessed up the board... Solutions?... Conga line?
So this is half tactics half painting, but fakk it, I'M A MAN.
Firstly, is Abby essential for a black legion army? Is it basically like not running Ahriman in T-sons, where it basically just makes no sense not to?
Secondly, would a red/gold paint scheme be fine when running a black legion army? I really don't want to repaint my army, but World Eaters has gotten stale to me (only so many times I can play rhino rush), Renegades lose out on WAY too many important things to play, and Word Bearers are...Well, useless, compared to the better legions like BL and AL.
vaklor4 wrote: So this is half tactics half painting, but fakk it, I'M A MAN.
Firstly, is Abby essential for a black legion army? Is it basically like not running Ahriman in T-sons, where it basically just makes no sense not to?
Secondly, would a red/gold paint scheme be fine when running a black legion army? I really don't want to repaint my army, but World Eaters has gotten stale to me (only so many times I can play rhino rush), Renegades lose out on WAY too many important things to play, and Word Bearers are...Well, useless, compared to the better legions like BL and AL.
If you are worried just paint one shoulder pads black and call it a day. Even most tournaments I attend have armies that are count as with zero issue.
vaklor4 wrote: So this is half tactics half painting, but fakk it, I'M A MAN.
Firstly, is Abby essential for a black legion army? Is it basically like not running Ahriman in T-sons, where it basically just makes no sense not to?
Secondly, would a red/gold paint scheme be fine when running a black legion army? I really don't want to repaint my army, but World Eaters has gotten stale to me (only so many times I can play rhino rush), Renegades lose out on WAY too many important things to play, and Word Bearers are...Well, useless, compared to the better legions like BL and AL.
Abigail is like the main reason the Black Legion trait is so bad. It was written under the assumption you're always taking him and making use of his auras.
vaklor4 wrote: So this is half tactics half painting, but fakk it, I'M A MAN.
Firstly, is Abby essential for a black legion army? Is it basically like not running Ahriman in T-sons, where it basically just makes no sense not to?
Secondly, would a red/gold paint scheme be fine when running a black legion army? I really don't want to repaint my army, but World Eaters has gotten stale to me (only so many times I can play rhino rush), Renegades lose out on WAY too many important things to play, and Word Bearers are...Well, useless, compared to the better legions like BL and AL.
Abigail is like the main reason the Black Legion trait is so bad. It was written under the assumption you're always taking him and making use of his auras.
This is a fine theory but it doesn't really hold up, Calgar and Gullimun both have similar auras and smurfs still have one of the best traits. Black legion trait sucks, but at least they have Abby, poor word bearers totally got the shaft. I think for your theory to hold water Games workshop would need to actually write consistent rules sets
To answer the question though, you don't need to take abbadon, but he is really strong in certain lists when you build around him and it really depends on the size of the game.
As for painting, I'd play some games as is before changing your armies look on impulse. World eaters may get some new ways to play in the next book after all.
I would enjoy new toys for world eaters, but tbh it's the lack of psykers that kills it for me. I love playing Khorne still, but it makes the game EXTREMELY mono-strategy. If I don't go melee rush, im wasting World Eaters, so theres little room for change.
vaklor4 wrote: So this is half tactics half painting, but fakk it, I'M A MAN.
Firstly, is Abby essential for a black legion army? Is it basically like not running Ahriman in T-sons, where it basically just makes no sense not to?
Secondly, would a red/gold paint scheme be fine when running a black legion army? I really don't want to repaint my army, but World Eaters has gotten stale to me (only so many times I can play rhino rush), Renegades lose out on WAY too many important things to play, and Word Bearers are...Well, useless, compared to the better legions like BL and AL.
Abigail is like the main reason the Black Legion trait is so bad. It was written under the assumption you're always taking him and making use of his auras.
This is a fine theory but it doesn't really hold up, Calgar and Gullimun both have similar auras and smurfs still have one of the best traits. Black legion trait sucks, but at least they have Abby, poor word bearers totally got the shaft. I think for your theory to hold water Games workshop would need to actually write consistent rules sets
To answer the question though, you don't need to take abbadon, but he is really strong in certain lists when you build around him and it really depends on the size of the game.
As for painting, I'd play some games as is before changing your armies look on impulse. World eaters may get some new ways to play in the next book after all.
And if you'll notice, Word Bearers have one of THE best Warlord traits and Relics. Strategem requires a lot of building around though, which is why I'm playing with how to tackle a summoning castle and make it Word Bearers and not suck.
This is mostly a consistency though when it comes to the main Heroes. I'd argue how lame Sautekh is as a Dynasty because you have the Stormlord to use. Goffs have Ghazzy and their trait is easily the worst. Abigail was already talked about.
Pretty sure emperor's children have the worst legion trait, it is really situational vs some armies it basically does nothing. Though they do get the added bonus of getting noise marine troops.
Rydria wrote: Pretty sure emperor's children have the worst legion trait, it is really situational vs some armies it basically does nothing. Though they do get the added bonus of getting noise marine troops.
We should just agree those first Marine codices weren't exactly handled well in general.
And from what it seems, they won't be fixing them at all come the new updated codex. Just new datasheets and cleaned up points. (which is nice, ill admit.)
Rydria wrote: Pretty sure emperor's children have the worst legion trait, it is really situational vs some armies it basically does nothing. Though they do get the added bonus of getting noise marine troops.
We should just agree those first Marine codices weren't exactly handled well in general.
Yeah I can agree to this, we did however come out of this with some great stratagems like votlw, and the slaanesh shot twice stratagem.
So world eaters, emperor's children deathguard and thousand sons where the only legions to not get a example colour scheme with the new chaos space marine kit, the later two already have codexes, so for those of you who play EC or WE what will you do when/if they get their own codexes and they lose access to some of the older models ?
I'm personally going to make my own renegade chapter and have my models that can no longer be apart of my legion be apart of that new army.
Rydria wrote: Pretty sure emperor's children have the worst legion trait, it is really situational vs some armies it basically does nothing. Though they do get the added bonus of getting noise marine troops.
We should just agree those first Marine codices weren't exactly handled well in general.
Yeah I can agree to this, we did however come out of this with some great stratagems like votlw, and the slaanesh shot twice stratagem.
So world eaters, emperor's children deathguard and thousand sons where the only legions to not get a example colour scheme with the new chaos space marine kit, the later two already have codexes, so for those of you who play EC or WE what will you do when/if they get their own codexes and they lose access to some of the older models ?
I'm personally going to make my own renegade chapter and have my models that can no longer be apart of my legion be apart of that new army.
Would you actually go renegade legion, or just take a legion and call it a custom legion? I can't justify Renegade Chapters when you lose VotLW, a relic, a stratagem and a warlord trait.
Rydria wrote: Pretty sure emperor's children have the worst legion trait, it is really situational vs some armies it basically does nothing. Though they do get the added bonus of getting noise marine troops.
We should just agree those first Marine codices weren't exactly handled well in general.
Yeah I can agree to this, we did however come out of this with some great stratagems like votlw, and the slaanesh shot twice stratagem.
So world eaters, emperor's children deathguard and thousand sons where the only legions to not get a example colour scheme with the new chaos space marine kit, the later two already have codexes, so for those of you who play EC or WE what will you do when/if they get their own codexes and they lose access to some of the older models ?
I'm personally going to make my own renegade chapter and have my models that can no longer be apart of my legion be apart of that new army.
Would you actually go renegade legion, or just take a legion and call it a custom legion? I can't justify Renegade Chapters when you lose VotLW, a relic, a stratagem and a warlord trait.
supposedly renegades are getting some new shiney things in vigilus, but I would go renegades, VOTLW is amazing but I always wanted to try the renegade chapter tactic with my bikers anyway.
Rydria wrote: for those of you who play EC or WE what will you do when/if they get their own codexes and they lose access to some of the older models?
My CSM/World Eaters will become fully fledged World Eaters and whatever model's/units that isn't included in the World Eater-codex will be banished to the void, also known as the closet.
Already happened to my Thousand Sons. That army used to contain plenty of units that was removed the new codex (mostly older MoTz-stuff like Terminators, CSM, Possessed, Raptors etc.), and they either forcefully joined my CSM/World Eaters or got stuffed away.
Thinking about it, I have a ton of old CSM-model's in the closet that I don't use because I either can't (Thousand Sons) or don't want/need to add to my World Eaters.
Perhaps I'll turn them into another Chaos army one day, or I'll just sell them...or they'll stay in the closet for another 5 years.
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