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Yeh seems pretty stupid to me too. I was just reporting some rumors. The main concern is that, since they got buffed pretty hard, there has to be a drawback or a HUGE point increase.
So the hypothesis is that there could be some gimmick that stops them from using Endless Cachophony. Just theories tho...

 N0tThatGuy wrote:
People are also saying that they are gonna loose the INFANTRY keyword. This would explain the increase in number of shots.

The only person to know anything is the guy who leaked the pages, who said nothing of the sort. People are speculating that this is maybe why, and now it's getting warped into "this is what's going to happen", just like what people did with things like "-1 to hits are all getting changed into cover saves!" etc.

It may happen, but let's be clear that it's just speculation and not confirmed in the slightest.

Could be that they’re losing INFANTRY to disqualify them from EC & VotLW? That would be a shame (and something of a tacit admission that Stratagems have thrown balanced pricing out the window)

Well, theoretically they could be classified as monsters with thier upped stats, but AFAIK there is no info pointing to this.

Oblits at 115-120ppm are around 20% less damage efficient than their current rules.

Likewise, I haven't run any numbers, but I'd be fairly sure that T5/4W makes them comparatively less survivable per point as well.

https://imgur.com/a/OpJx7yg
They have infantry

stormcraft wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/OpJx7yg
They have infantry

Perfect! All this speculations for nothing ahahah. Now we just have to see how much will they cost!

I am legitimately excited for these units. If they are not absurd in cost, we may actually have competitive units again.

Greater possessed would be a lot better if they gave +1 str to daemons units, tho.

if they are 105-110 they are as good as before, any more and they start looking worse. The 4th wound doesn't really help as much as you would think since they don't ignore damage. So any D2 weapon still two shots one and these are the guns that were hitting them. The T5 is definitely as boost though since overcharged plasma and dissintegrator canons now wound a pip less often. I really hope they aren't 120.

I'd put the cost at around 100. They should be better than their previous iteration, considering what other factions received in the interim.

Chaos part of the update seems quite underwhelming. Marines on the other hand got really powerful scouts. Imperium is gona wreck dem enemy characters hard with those scouts and assassins.

Hmm... truth be told, the most interesting thing about new Oblits is them being able to look after themselves in a fight. I did just play a game where Intercessors managed to charge them, and these specs would have seen them get wiped out for their efforts. ...I’m not sure that I’d prefer to pay nearly twice as much for the unit for that capability, over just taking more Oblits, though...

...they may be no tougher against S6-7 D2, but they will be twice as robust against D3. That’s a fairly popular profile, especially amongst Armiger. ...again, this is not much better than just taking two units!

Speaking of the game I just played - on my first turn, that updated Vindicare took my Prescience Sorcerer’s head clean off. With LOS rules as they are, I’m struggling to keep heads down. What can we do about this thing? 85pts of invuln ignoring, mortal wounding, double tapping mischief.

Sigh, have you seen the csm squad in the box?
What terrible equipment mixed in one squad....

Not Online!!! wrote:
Sigh, have you seen the csm squad in the box?
What terrible equipment mixed in one squad....

That datasheet is only for the unit as it comes in the box, not for CSM in general. No one in their right mind would run them like that except in total soft narrative play. I'm just happy we're finally getting new models!

As for the Oblits, I hope they don't go through the roof in points cost. Vanilla Chaos Marines need to be thrown a bone right now, and this would be a good one. The Venomcrawler looks just as meh as the Dinobots (who admittedly are looking a lot better post-CA2018), so we'll have to wait until we see its point cost before rendering judgment. I'm not getting my hopes up since one of its abilities buffs summoning, which is a pretty weak game mechanic right now. Same with the cool-looking new character.

 Red Corsair wrote:
if they are 105-110 they are as good as before, any more and they start looking worse. The 4th wound doesn't really help as much as you would think since they don't ignore damage. So any D2 weapon still two shots one and these are the guns that were hitting them. The T5 is definitely as boost though since overcharged plasma and dissintegrator canons now wound a pip less often. I really hope they aren't 120.

97-98 points is the break even point for new vs old where damage efficiency is concerned, but if they're 6PL per, that's 101ppm at minimum, best case. 101ppm puts them close to existing damage efficiency, but still marginally behind. 105-110 is encroaching on 10% worse. And that's before looking at the survivability drop between T4/3W@65ppm vs T5/4W@97-120ppm. I haven't run any numbers on the survivability end of things since it's so variable (T5 is better vs S4/S5/S8 and beyond, 4W is better vs 3D weapons, but no better vs 2D, etc), but I'd eyeball that an extra point of toughness and additional wound probably isn't worth 35 or more points per dude.

They might have been feasible if they remained at 195, since their problems are 1) they're a suicide drop 2) random damage requires further buildaround in the form of CP re-rolls and potentially even Gaze of fate if you're running multiple squads, and 3) the mere existence of Vect/GSCVect renders Cacophony alpha strikes impossible.

When you're sinking 200pts into a unit that's not likely to survive the turn beyond the drop, it's unacceptable for it to not make its points back, and right now, they don't make their points back.

At 65, they had a chance at being competitive. At 100+, they're unequivocally worse than the versions we currently have.

Anyone else notice that the master of possession looks like a crappy sorcerer until you realize he is casting from a new set of spells? Whatever the Malefic Disciple is it could make him really good.

He also has a 12' peril-on-doubles bubble as well. Not bad.

Yeah...I feel 100+ points for that is pretty dumb. At that point they are competing with a dual lascannon/ML helbrutes O.o

Not sure if that's a favorable comparison.

There are three ee ways to play obliterators that I know of:

Slaanesh: CP heavy buffs with VotLW and Endless Cacophony
They hardly benefit from Darmon keyword, but get 5+ FNP from Delightful Agonies.

Tzeentch: Low-CP consumption versatile units heavily relied on Daemonic allies for Flickering Flames (poor man’s VotLW), Gaze of Fate Reroll to get better AP/Damage, rerolls of 1 to wound from Daemonspark. Getting Locus also slightly increases their melee survivability as well as +1 to Inv saves from Weaver of Fates. I like these most, cause they usually provide best mileage by sticking around longer.

Khorne: Also low on CP consumption exploiting Crimson Crown relic for extra shoots on “6” to wound rolls. Buff to “Assault 6” gives more reliable bonus shots. And being khornate also synergies well with their new melee weapon. So they can DS, shoot and charge. Locus can give them reroll to charge, but it is usually highly impractical to make Khorne only detachments.
My friend tried to field the current version along the single squad of letters with quite positive results.

These are obliterators I think viable. Nurgle obliterators seem sturdy, especially with -1 to hit from miasma and alpha legion combined, but their damage output is way too unreliable. Although they fit well in Nurgle Heavy lists, which usually have very lackluster shooting phase.
With new stats and melee weapon they can benefit from Virulent Blessing and Fleshy Abundance and cost increase might make them viable for Reverberating Summons, but Nurgle armies usually have better things to buff and GUO is still questionable choice.

Bottom line: while new obliterators are more versatile they mostly buff combos that already good... which isn’t bad thing I guess.
I might continue to field two squads (slaanesh + tzeentch) , but if the point cost is too high will drop the slaaneshy ones, cause I already suffer from severe CP-deficit.

Nature's Minister wrote:
I am legitimately excited for these units. If they are not absurd in cost, we may actually have competitive units again.

Greater possessed would be a lot better if they gave +1 str to daemons units, tho.

I think the idea is to not make hybrid CSM/daemon armies interlock TOO much.

That being said-they work for daemon engines, so there's that.

 Fan67 wrote:

Nurgle obliterators seem sturdy, especially with -1 to hit from miasma and alpha legion combined, but their damage output is way too unreliable. Although they fit well in Nurgle Heavy lists, which usually have very lackluster shooting phase.
With new stats and melee weapon they can benefit from Virulent Blessing and Fleshy Abundance and cost increase might make them viable for Reverberating Summons, but Nurgle armies usually have better things to buff and GUO is still questionable choice.

They do benefit from locus of nurgle for +1D on 6, or on 5 with VotLW, and the fortification thingy can give them a 0+ save. They also help a lot for epidemius.

Also, how do you weaver of fate Tzeench obliterators? Unless the new datasheet allows them to take TS as a legion.

Tzeentch CSM sorcerer gets weaver of fates as the "god spell" option

Infernal enrapturess can also now bring them back if they are slaanesh.


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On the other hand though, it really is some pretty serious firepower. A unit of three with endless, votlw and prescience kills a knight on average give or take a bit. Add in reroll 1s and a gaze of fate or command reroll on the strength, you get something like 20 wounds on a castelan with rotate and ion bulwark.
That is some serious support, but it is also some serious results.

I think the intention from GW was to run those Greater Possessed with a unit of normal Possessed to buff their strength. Too bad Possessed are kind of cabbage right now, playing second fiddle to Khorne Berzerkers. Maybe if you totally double down on your Daemonic CSM units (Possessed, Oblits, Daemon Engines) and run the appropriate HQs from Codex: Daemons (to get the Locus abilities) there might be a workable strategy, but I don't think it would be any better than anything Chaos is already doing.

I am hoping for interesting formation rules or new stratagems to spice up the offerings we are seeing for Chaos now.

The obliterators have already been nerfed enough that I have been working them out of my list prior to this point and I was hoping this release would give them a boost. Like many have mentioned, it is really going to come down to where their point cost falls. I wouldn't mind paying extra for more shooting since that meshes well with existing strats, but it is the cost of the new melee weapon, +1 T, and +1 W that has me worried since I don't really feel like those add a lot to what the obliterator typically does (drop, strats, unload, hope you don't get Vect, unload again, promptly die). Even in that role, you were at the mercy of random rolls for your weapon profile. You could have a re-roll in reserve (or 2 if you play Tzeentch) and this was still a pretty reasonable balancing factor since sometimes you just roll 1's and 2's and it is a lot of sad panda dakka.

The Venom Crawler is another wait and see unit. If it can be pointed out comparable to a dakka brute (so around the 120 mark) then I can see it having some potential. Having assault weapons lets it remain functional while it moves (one of defilers drawbacks) and its shooting strength being based on its strength stat opens up some options that are nice. The 10" move is useful, especially with Slaanesh or renegade advance and charge options, though has anyone seen how many attacks it is going to get? The only pics I can find have that bit cut off. I wonder if the Daemon God Locus will stack with the Locus of Power. Though with all the new sniping tools coming in to play, it is going to be trickier to keep those +1 str bubbles functional, especially from T3 heralds.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I think the intention from GW was to run those Greater Possessed with a unit of normal Possessed to buff their strength. Too bad Possessed are kind of cabbage right now, playing second fiddle to Khorne Berzerkers. Maybe if you totally double down on your Daemonic CSM units (Possessed, Oblits, Daemon Engines) and run the appropriate HQs from Codex: Daemons (to get the Locus abilities) there might be a workable strategy, but I don't think it would be any better than anything Chaos is already doing.

Yeah, the possessed are in a rough place and extra strength doesn't really change that. Their attack output being so swingy is one of their biggest problems. For 20 ppm, d3 attacks doesn't really cut it for an elite melee unit. I wouldn't mind swingy if it was a big risk/reward play, where a high roll put them well above the average of melee centric units, but 3 attacks is pretty standard for melee-centric units as far as I can remember. So at their best they are roughly equivalent to most other melee infantry and you still need to get them up the board somehow to boot.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I think the intention from GW was to run those Greater Possessed with a unit of normal Possessed to buff their strength. Too bad Possessed are kind of cabbage right now, playing second fiddle to Khorne Berzerkers. Maybe if you totally double down on your Daemonic CSM units (Possessed, Oblits, Daemon Engines) and run the appropriate HQs from Codex: Daemons (to get the Locus abilities) there might be a workable strategy, but I don't think it would be any better than anything Chaos is already doing.

Agreed with all this. I love possessed but even at s7 with a herald and a greater possessed, the d3 attacks bites and the berzerker's fight twice ability outshines all the melee infantry. Berzerker's are squishy and I'm still figuring out how to keep them alive, but the possessed 5++ doesn't come into play without Weaver because no one is hitting them with ap -3 weapons.

Sad.

And @Kias, agreed, didn't want to quote all that.

The venom crawler is pretty meh. It's a maulerfiend with more but wimpier attacks. It'll need to be rather cheap to be worth it vs a fist+scourge helbrute. Because its cannons are unreliable on a bs 4+ model and it's summoning gimmick is a bad joke.

The obliterators will heavily depend on their final price, but with PL6 a pop things sound pretty bad. One nice thing I can say is that the new sculpts look better than the old ones. I think. Still look like gak, but the sculpt looks more competent

The greater possessed have potential, but unless the regular possessed have had their stats changed to equal those of their Horus Heresy counterparts, the aura will mostly affect itself, the odd daemon prince and maybe a heldrake.
If they aren't expensive I can see myself playing one or two, though.

For the master of possession - well he's a sorcerer with an invul, a new discipline and a very situational anti-psyker ability. Hopefully we won't pay through the nose and the powers will actually be good. Still can't believe GW actually graced us with a generic HQ.

Chainaxes on regular CSM sounds neat, but not enough to take any over cult marines. But more chainaxe bits means easier conversions for berzerkers!

 McGibs wrote:
He also has a 12' peril-on-doubles bubble as well. Not bad.

Eh not bad... but better then that. With the Daemons strat.

So..this is up for debate in our group and I want to make sure. daemon locus work on CSM with the deamon keyword?

So oblit and possessed etc etc can actually get bonuses from deamon locus abilities?

We thought that they couldn't...

That would make the 3 chaos players we have super happy

 rayphoton wrote:
So..this is up for debate in our group and I want to make sure. daemon locus work on CSM with the deamon keyword?

So oblit and possessed etc etc can actually get bonuses from deamon locus abilities?

We thought that they couldn't...

That would make the 3 chaos players we have super happy

Yes it works so long as they have the Daemon key word and the related mark.

So a WE player that puts a greater possesed and a Herald of Khorne next to a unit of Oblits and give them +2 Str also the Greater Possesed would gain +2 Str, but the Hearled would only get +1 because he does not have the <LEGION> keyword.