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Unless there are new formations or that new malefic psychic discipline in Vigilus helps, otherwise I still can't figure out how to make Possessed work. They are infantry that has to foot slog up the battlefield that cost 20 points per model.

And I can't really think of why I wouldn't just bring berserkers instead of Possessed if I wanted a melee meatgrinder. Cheaper with far more attacks. Equip the champ with a power fist, and you have a unit in berserkers that can put out tons of attacks plus a fair number of power fist attacks too. Possessed are hardier but thats not saying much. With the lethality of shooting in the army lists these days, they will die if any shooty unit focuses on them as well.

I really want possessed to work. Already intend to get shadowspear box set. But right now, I am just not seeing how they can work. Maybe you guys can tell me how you made them work in 8th edition.

Hey guys I’m considering a new army and was wondering how well a summoning style csm list would fair in itc missions? Setting aside a handful of points to summon in daemons for specific rolls

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Unless there are new formations or that new malefic psychic discipline in Vigilus helps, otherwise I still can't figure out how to make Possessed work. They are infantry that has to foot slog up the battlefield that cost 20 points per model.

And I can't really think of why I wouldn't just bring berserkers instead of Possessed if I wanted a melee meatgrinder. Cheaper with far more attacks. Equip the champ with a power fist, and you have a unit in berserkers that can put out tons of attacks plus a fair number of power fist attacks too. Possessed are hardier but thats not saying much. With the lethality of shooting in the army lists these days, they will die if any shooty unit focuses on them as well.

I really want possessed to work. Already intend to get shadowspear box set. But right now, I am just not seeing how they can work. Maybe you guys can tell me how you made them work in 8th edition.

-Be Alpha Legion
-Bring 10 man squad of possesed.
-Bring Sorc/DP w/warptime.
-Pay 2 CP to move up both Sorc/DP and Possesed
-Move up possesed and Sorc/DP 9".
-Get First Turn.
-Move move up Sorc/DP and Possesed.
-Cast WT on possesed.
-Possesed are now 23" from where you deployed.
-Charge with extreme prejudice.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drdotts wrote:
Hey guys I’m considering a new army and was wondering how well a summoning style csm list would fair in itc missions? Setting aside a handful of points to summon in daemons for specific rolls

6th Seed of LVO was a CSM that did just that I believe.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 rayphoton wrote:
So..this is up for debate in our group and I want to make sure. daemon locus work on CSM with the deamon keyword?

So oblit and possessed etc etc can actually get bonuses from deamon locus abilities?

We thought that they couldn't...

That would make the 3 chaos players we have super happy

Yes it works so long as they have the Daemon key word and the related mark.

So a WE player that puts a greater possesed and a Herald of Khorne next to a unit of Oblits and give them +2 Str also the Greater Possesed would gain +2 Str, but the Hearled would only get +1 because he does not have the <LEGION> keyword.

Or my juggerlord with black mace going to S10 with a herald and greater possessed!

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

-Be Alpha Legion
-Bring 10 man squad of possesed.
-Bring Sorc/DP w/warptime.
-Pay 2 CP to move up both Sorc/DP and Possesed
-Move up possesed and Sorc/DP 9".
-Get First Turn.
-Move move up Sorc/DP and Possesed.
-Cast WT on possesed.
-Possesed are now 23" from where you deployed.
-Charge with extreme prejudice.

Yeah, except you can do the same thing with berzerkers.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Unless there are new formations or that new malefic psychic discipline in Vigilus helps, otherwise I still can't figure out how to make Possessed work. They are infantry that has to foot slog up the battlefield that cost 20 points per model.

And I can't really think of why I wouldn't just bring berserkers instead of Possessed if I wanted a melee meatgrinder. Cheaper with far more attacks. Equip the champ with a power fist, and you have a unit in berserkers that can put out tons of attacks plus a fair number of power fist attacks too. Possessed are hardier but thats not saying much. With the lethality of shooting in the army lists these days, they will die if any shooty unit focuses on them as well.

I really want possessed to work. Already intend to get shadowspear box set. But right now, I am just not seeing how they can work. Maybe you guys can tell me how you made them work in 8th edition.

One - gimmicky - thing that might work would be Slaanesh or Nurgle soup.

Slaanesh Daemon characters and Feculent Gnarlmaws both have an Advance and charge aura.

I’ve had ok results using these alongside Warptime and Fiends to lock units in combat T1 with Defilers and Heldrakes and a DP. They’ve also got twice the resilience against Fabius Bile as 1W infantry, presenting a way to try to give them a permanent 2-4A. Do it in the enemy movement phase, and they can have had Delightful Agonies cast on them for even more resilience.

A lot of moving parts, sure, but 14+2D6” then charge is a distinctive advantage over Berzerkers.

As for the MoP’s 12” aura... meh. If I want to make psykers self-own, I take an Infernal Enrapturess. Malefic better have something that synergises getting close to shock troops and DTW... I’m anticipating DAEMON Astartes buffs and anti-psyker.

im interested to see how many point oblits will cost

Well, its pretty easy to guess the general area as its a unit with fixed gear.

I mean, its about 20 times the PL, meaning that is somehwere around 120 points.
Most likely slightly under, but no way its under 100.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Nature's Minister wrote:
I am legitimately excited for these units. If they are not absurd in cost, we may actually have competitive units again.

Greater possessed would be a lot better if they gave +1 str to daemons units, tho.

I think the idea is to not make hybrid CSM/daemon armies interlock TOO much.

That being said-they work for daemon engines, so there's that.

Running Maulers up with a mobile Lord doesn't sound like a terrible idea in that manner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 inirlan wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

-Be Alpha Legion
-Bring 10 man squad of possesed.
-Bring Sorc/DP w/warptime.
-Pay 2 CP to move up both Sorc/DP and Possesed
-Move up possesed and Sorc/DP 9".
-Get First Turn.
-Move move up Sorc/DP and Possesed.
-Cast WT on possesed.
-Possesed are now 23" from where you deployed.
-Charge with extreme prejudice.

Yeah, except you can do the same thing with berzerkers.

Possessed don't die to a stiff breeze, which can be important.

Almost everything dies to a stiff breeze in 8th.

120pts each not sure if they will be largely played

Nature's Minister wrote:
Almost everything dies to a stiff breeze in 8th.

It's mostly just Marines, due to losing the fight of attrition.

Aside from knights, death guard daemon engines, and a couple dark elder units, what can you really classify as hard to kill?

Hey my dudes, I'm considering a minimum cost CP farm of Renegades and Heretics and was wondering what your thoughts and experiences were with them. I have 2 options that I'm thinking of.

2x Renegade Commanders
3x Mutant Rabble
= 170pts +5CP 32 models

or

2x Renegade Commanders
3x Militia Squads w/ Grenade Launcher, Mortar Team, Vox Caster
= 209pts +5CP 32 models

Option 1 would probably just charge into the teeth of the enemy and eat bullets, or just focus on screening. Option 2 would obviously sit on a deployment zone objective. Do you feel like 170-200pts for 32 models and 5CP is a pretty good deal?

EDIT: I should also point out I'm considering using these guys instead of the usual cultists.

Assuming new oblis are 110 pts, they get ~15% tougher vs bolters. 25% squishier vs plazma, 10% squishier vs asscannons and loose 10% damage. But can be taken solo instead of squads of 3.

New obliz seem to be an unimpressive sidetrade bordering on nerf territory unless there's something else we don't know. Like a strategem that makes them shoot with the best weapon profile or something like this.

the_Jakman wrote:
Hey my dudes, I'm considering a minimum cost CP farm of Renegades and Heretics and was wondering what your thoughts and experiences were with them. I have 2 options that I'm thinking of.

2x Renegade Commanders
3x Mutant Rabble
= 170pts +5CP 32 models

or

2x Renegade Commanders
3x Militia Squads w/ Grenade Launcher, Mortar Team, Vox Caster
= 209pts +5CP 32 models

Option 1 would probably just charge into the teeth of the enemy and eat bullets, or just focus on screening. Option 2 would obviously sit on a deployment zone objective. Do you feel like 170-200pts for 32 models and 5CP is a pretty good deal?

EDIT: I should also point out I'm considering using these guys instead of the usual cultists.

Option one but with militia instead, why? Because militia Champions have sargents statline so they hit gak.

On option 2, why excactly waste points on the gl 's.
If you want to expand this i'd say make a brigade out of it with mortar Hwt squads, or stubbers, add in some single sentinels for Fa slots and command disciples for elites and you would be good to go.

Also on option 2 don't worry about voxes on 10 man militia squads, voxes only really pay off if you also field 2+ command squads with cmd voxes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Assuming new oblis are 110 pts, they get ~15% tougher vs bolters. 25% squishier vs plazma, 10% squishier vs asscannons and loose 10% damage. But can be taken solo instead of squads of 3.

New obliz seem to be an unimpressive sidetrade bordering on nerf territory unless there's something else we don't know. Like a strategem that makes them shoot with the best weapon profile or something like this.

Well you get brigades" cheaper " that's to say you actually don't because havocs exist for hs, and with for 4 ac they are probably a lot more dakka than single Oblits.

Ok, if I want a pure CP farm I'll go for 2x Renegade Commanders with 3x Militia Squads, absolutely barebones. I added the grenade launchers just because they were the cheapest option and it'd allow me to throw more dice downrange, but you don't think they're worth the points?

I looked at the cost for a minimum R&H brigade.

3x Commanders
3x Enforcers
6x Militia Squads
3x Sentinels w/ Multilasers
3x HWT w/ 3x Mortars
= 582pts, +12CP, 78 chump wounds, 24 character wounds, 18 sentinel wounds.

That's a TINY amount of points for an entire brigade and leaves 1418pts for the rest of the army.
Looking at their stats and rules again though, maybe sticking to a battalion with Abby and cultists would be better.

the_Jakman wrote:
Ok, if I want a pure CP farm I'll go for 2x Renegade Commanders with 3x Militia Squads, absolutely barebones. I added the grenade launchers just because they were the cheapest option and it'd allow me to throw more dice downrange, but you don't think they're worth the points?

I looked at the cost for a minimum R&H brigade.

3x Commanders
3x Enforcers
6x Militia Squads
3x Sentinels w/ Multilasers
3x HWT w/ 3x Mortars
= 582pts, +12CP, 78 chump wounds, 24 character wounds, 18 sentinel wounds.

That's a TINY amount of points for an entire brigade and leaves 1418pts for the rest of the army.
Looking at their stats and rules again though, maybe sticking to a battalion with Abby and cultists would be better.

Wrong, enforcers are 30 pts, command squad disciples are 24 for 4 of them.

There are a few gems though in the r&H list, like 6 Hwt/ squad with Mortars, heavy Stubbers for 2 ppm, marauders ( No seriously marauders are a great unit) enforcers are also really good if you decide to field 50 Mutant blobs.

Thanks, I missed that. So swapping out the enforcers for command squads brings it down to 564pts, with 90 chump wounds, 12 character wounds and 18 sentinel wounds.
So do you think it'd be a good idea to add something like this to my main CSM force? This seems like a ridiculous number of models and command points for very cheap.

the_Jakman wrote:
Thanks, I missed that. So swapping out the enforcers for command squads brings it down to 564pts, with 90 chump wounds, 12 character wounds and 18 sentinel wounds.
So do you think it'd be a good idea to add something like this to my main CSM force? This seems like a ridiculous number of models and command points for very cheap.

If you Plan a specific highly cp dependant build that lacks a footprint? Why not, milita is cheap if you points left you can buy them stuff, Sentinels are fairly good also when you need bit more dakka.

A specific highly CP dependent build? Not especially. I plan to mainly use Alpha Legion to infiltrate large squads of Noise Marines and Bezerkers, fly a Sorcerer and a DP forward to support, deep strike Obliterators, and have Abaddon with Cultists as a CP battery and objective taking. So I need the CP for infiltrate, VotLW, Endless Cacophony, etc.

the_Jakman wrote:
A specific highly CP dependent build? Not especially. I plan to mainly use Alpha Legion to infiltrate large squads of Noise Marines and Bezerkers, fly a Sorcerer and a DP forward to support, deep strike Obliterators, and have Abaddon with Cultists as a CP battery and objective taking. So I need the CP for infiltrate, VotLW, Endless Cacophony, etc.

Then the brigade seems right.

Well, two Newblits costs a little more than three Oldblits, have the same firepower, the unit takes 67% as much D2 firepower to delete but also takes 33% more D3 firepower to delete. That’s not terrible.

They also arrive at the same time as a shiny new D2 AP-2 unit that doesn’t care about the T5 boost and is almost impossible to prevent from getting a good round of shots it. That sucks. More so if you play garagehammer with Primaris fans.

They also present the option to increase the unit’s firepower by 50%, for something like a 60-70% price increase? That’s not actually all that bad, on a unit’s already a prime candidate for our three big buffs - Prescience, VotLW, and EC. It hereby becomes even more of a DA candidate, which really throws the D2 vulnerability out the window, and increases the chances of Vect burning off his CP only to see the unit survive with 4+1W into the next turn - leaving it with the same 12 shots we already consider worth using EC with.

On top of that, the unit - that drops in the enemy’s face to reach a choice target - gains the ability to leave a charger or tarpit with a broken nose, and maybe even fight off a screening unit that tries to entangle it.

This isn’t all that bad at all. I think I’m getting pretty stoked for these guys. Shame the gun base strength doesn’t benefit from Herald + GP, that would have really made the price hike (and descaling of all my Terminator kitbashes) easier to swallow.

I assume there is nothing stopping players using the existing obliteraters datasheet after the new sheet is out?

 Ap0k wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
if they are 105-110 they are as good as before, any more and they start looking worse. The 4th wound doesn't really help as much as you would think since they don't ignore damage. So any D2 weapon still two shots one and these are the guns that were hitting them. The T5 is definitely as boost though since overcharged plasma and dissintegrator canons now wound a pip less often. I really hope they aren't 120.

97-98 points is the break even point for new vs old where damage efficiency is concerned, but if they're 6PL per, that's 101ppm at minimum, best case. 101ppm puts them close to existing damage efficiency, but still marginally behind. 105-110 is encroaching on 10% worse. And that's before looking at the survivability drop between T4/3W@65ppm vs T5/4W@97-120ppm. I haven't run any numbers on the survivability end of things since it's so variable (T5 is better vs S4/S5/S8 and beyond, 4W is better vs 3D weapons, but no better vs 2D, etc), but I'd eyeball that an extra point of toughness and additional wound probably isn't worth 35 or more points per dude.

They might have been feasible if they remained at 195, since their problems are 1) they're a suicide drop 2) random damage requires further buildaround in the form of CP re-rolls and potentially even Gaze of fate if you're running multiple squads, and 3) the mere existence of Vect/GSCVect renders Cacophony alpha strikes impossible.

When you're sinking 200pts into a unit that's not likely to survive the turn beyond the drop, it's unacceptable for it to not make its points back, and right now, they don't make their points back.

At 65, they had a chance at being competitive. At 100+, they're unequivocally worse than the versions we currently have.

Your not factoring in the new assault profile. This is not me arguing with you about efficiency, just pointing out the fact you WILL pay for it regardless of opinions. It does have a use, but like a defiler I'd rather have them cheaper and focused on one battlefield task. So worse or not, I think your being a bit optimistic if you think they will be less then 105 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MrPieChee wrote:
I assume there is nothing stopping players using the existing obliteraters datasheet after the new sheet is out?

Normally you need to use the most up to date datasheet. That said, this mini dex is not a replacement, so unless the book specifically calls this out, I would bet you can run 3 units from the old sheet and 3 units from the new slate. I doubt it would last long though, a new codex is on the horizon.

if you send oblits in CaC you are alreday doing something wrong also with the new improved CaC profile

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Ap0k wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
if they are 105-110 they are as good as before, any more and they start looking worse. The 4th wound doesn't really help as much as you would think since they don't ignore damage. So any D2 weapon still two shots one and these are the guns that were hitting them. The T5 is definitely as boost though since overcharged plasma and dissintegrator canons now wound a pip less often. I really hope they aren't 120.

97-98 points is the break even point for new vs old where damage efficiency is concerned, but if they're 6PL per, that's 101ppm at minimum, best case. 101ppm puts them close to existing damage efficiency, but still marginally behind. 105-110 is encroaching on 10% worse. And that's before looking at the survivability drop between T4/3W@65ppm vs T5/4W@97-120ppm. I haven't run any numbers on the survivability end of things since it's so variable (T5 is better vs S4/S5/S8 and beyond, 4W is better vs 3D weapons, but no better vs 2D, etc), but I'd eyeball that an extra point of toughness and additional wound probably isn't worth 35 or more points per dude.

They might have been feasible if they remained at 195, since their problems are 1) they're a suicide drop 2) random damage requires further buildaround in the form of CP re-rolls and potentially even Gaze of fate if you're running multiple squads, and 3) the mere existence of Vect/GSCVect renders Cacophony alpha strikes impossible.

When you're sinking 200pts into a unit that's not likely to survive the turn beyond the drop, it's unacceptable for it to not make its points back, and right now, they don't make their points back.

At 65, they had a chance at being competitive. At 100+, they're unequivocally worse than the versions we currently have.

Your not factoring in the new assault profile. This is not me arguing with you about efficiency, just pointing out the fact you WILL pay for it regardless of opinions. It does have a use, but like a defiler I'd rather have them cheaper and focused on one battlefield task. So worse or not, I think your being a bit optimistic if you think they will be less then 105 points.

You're right on all counts, which is why these guys (at 100-105, best case) are looking virtually unplayable compared to the existing rules, and potentially catastrophically useless (if they go as far as 120).

Leak I saw said 115 per oblit. So yeah, useless.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Leak I saw said 115 per oblit. So yeah, useless.

Yikes, so Oblits are out, so the only thing we still have that performs is dp's right?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Leak I saw said 115 per oblit. So yeah, useless.

Yikes, so Oblits are out, so the only thing we still have that performs is dp's right?

Don't worry, they'll give DP an extra toughness and attack, make it 10 wounds then call it a buff