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So at 115 per oblit they clock in at 345 for 3 - assuming you VOTLW and Presicence them (Standard practice) and refire thats going to be 36 shots for 345 poitns as opposed to the 24 shots we woudl get previously for refiring oblits at 200 poitns plus the extra 200 poitns for the second oblit squad to bring the shots to 36... So at 345 its a bit of a discount but is more of a glass cannon with less woudns etc.?

It's funny because people still haven't realized that Daemon spells work on Oblits. Flikering Flames and VotLW gets you wounding on 2s, Boon of Change can increase their Melee damage or add a T, 3++ save on a 12 wound T5 unit means even the best weapons need to be shot at BS 2+ and you still probably wont kill all of them. Tzeench oblits will be hitting on 2s rerolling, wounding on 2s rerolling, have 3 re-rolls (GoF, MI, and CP reroll) for fleshmetal guns.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
It's funny because people still haven't realized that Daemon spells work on Oblits. Flikering Flames and VotLW gets you wounding on 2s, Boon of Change can increase their Melee damage or add a T, 3++ save on a 12 wound T5 unit means even the best weapons need to be shot at BS 2+ and you still probably wont kill all of them. Tzeench oblits will be hitting on 2s rerolling, wounding on 2s rerolling, have 3 re-rolls (GoF, MI, and CP reroll) for fleshmetal guns.

Fine and dandy, just leads to further emphasis why soup overall will damae the capabilities of armies played mono.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
It's funny because people still haven't realized that Daemon spells work on Oblits. Flikering Flames and VotLW gets you wounding on 2s, Boon of Change can increase their Melee damage or add a T, 3++ save on a 12 wound T5 unit means even the best weapons need to be shot at BS 2+ and you still probably wont kill all of them. Tzeench oblits will be hitting on 2s rerolling, wounding on 2s rerolling, have 3 re-rolls (GoF, MI, and CP reroll) for fleshmetal guns.

How do you get 3++ on obliterators?

People do not at all forget that. You've listed 4 psychic powers required to support them, that is 2 casters worth at best; so factor in another 150+ points. Further, nearly all of it relies on teeznch, which then precludes Endless Cacophony; a poor choice since that is pretty much the only thing which comes close to making them worthwhile.

So we'll follow your example and give them tzeench, a fate caster for flickering, and an MoP for fleshmetal guns and a 4++. So now they cost more than a double gat knight; a bit more firepower (outside of heavy flamer range at least), no where near as much durability, range, board presence or melee threat. Further, on average at least one of those powers fail to go off. Also you don't have your 4++ first turn so you either have to deep strike, losing a turn of shooting, or pray you go first.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
It's funny because people still haven't realized that Daemon spells work on Oblits. Flikering Flames and VotLW gets you wounding on 2s, Boon of Change can increase their Melee damage or add a T, 3++ save on a 12 wound T5 unit means even the best weapons need to be shot at BS 2+ and you still probably wont kill all of them. Tzeench oblits will be hitting on 2s rerolling, wounding on 2s rerolling, have 3 re-rolls (GoF, MI, and CP reroll) for fleshmetal guns.

How do you get 3++ on obliterators?

Weaver of Fates from Dark Hereticus discipline for 4++
Cursed Earth from Malefic discipline for 3++

The more and more I look at it, the more and more I want the MoP to be spiffy but don't think he is. I love his spells, but he really needed to be 12" fly; he is even clearly flying on both the mini and in the fluff!

His poor movement means you want him to stand in back and aura-buff. The problem is that he has no good targets for that; Forgefiends suck, oblits are probably fairly lackluster now and are often going to deepstrike, decimaters are just worse than contemptors; not much worse, but enough that this guy is not going to push them over given his cost. Defiler...maybe? But it seems better to just take one and daemon forge it.

If he could move quickly, he could buff his best targets; bash bros (if he's allowed to get those keywords), daemon princes and Kytans. Maaaybe maulerfiends, though they aren't great.

We really need a relic for them that is like eldar faucho's wing.

drakerocket wrote:
The more and more I look at it, the more and more I want the MoP to be spiffy but don't think he is. I love his spells, but he really needed to be 12" fly; he is even clearly flying on both the mini and in the fluff!

His poor movement means you want him to stand in back and aura-buff. The problem is that he has no good targets for that; Forgefiends suck, oblits are probably fairly lackluster now and are often going to deepstrike, decimaters are just worse than contemptors; not much worse, but enough that this guy is not going to push them over given his cost. Defiler...maybe? But it seems better to just take one and daemon forge it.

If he could move quickly, he could buff his best targets; bash bros (if he's allowed to get those keywords), daemon princes and Kytans. Maaaybe maulerfiends, though they aren't great.

We really need a relic for them that is like eldar faucho's wing.

Just model him with a jumppack!

oohh wait.

I think there is potential for a massive forst turn with oblits and master of possession (albeit an expensive one). If you know you're going first, as you generally do with new CA missions.

1. Start oblits and MoP on the line
2. Forward operatives them both 9" move
3. Move 4", advance if needed
4. Pile on infernal power, mutated invigoration, prescience, VotLW and EC.
5. 36 fairl reliable, hard hitting shots with a 37-43" threat range.

Don't know if it's worth the points, talking 500 plus if you unclude MoP and a second sorcerer but that's goimg to take a lot of points off the board early.

Or you could just use warp time to move advance a unit of 3 obliterators twice on the first turn. That's a 8 inch plus double advance 2d6. Should bring them into stuff worth shooting at. Their weapons can be shot after advancing anyway.

Just use prescience. I would bypass this 1+ reroll. a 2+ BS is almost the same as a 1+ reroll and at some point, you are stacking just too many buffs on a unit. The marginal benefit isn't worth stacking so many hit or wound buffs. Prescience and veterans are more than enough really I feel. Maybe one more psychic from the MOP to allow for reroll of the d3 to save CP, cursed earth, and then delightful agonies. Then cacophony them to shoot twice.

Using so many psychic just to buff one unit better be worthwhile. As one poster above said. We are using two sorceror's worth of psychic plus strategems. Are you going to be able to one shot a knight even despite blowing all that?

Well if shining spears are anything to go by piling as many stratergems and psychic powers on one unit as possible is the way to go.

In terms of one shotting a knight it depends on a lot of things, although MoP, gaze of fate command reroll can make random weapons more reliable.

If we presume that you can get str 8 AP -1/-2 dmg 2 with all those buffs and adverage shooting twice.

You'll get 35 hits, 29 wounds, if knight has 4++ that's, 29 damage, 3++ 19 wounds. So would definately put a dent in and likely kill a knight.

Long time XIV member planning to expand into the XX this weekend. Would just like to say thanks for all the pointers above - it's all been really helpful to get to grasp with where heretic astartes are at.

Really looking forward to going romper stomper with the new daemonkin!

So as far as making a Daemonkin themed army, what legion(s) fare the best? I'm thinking Word Bearers or Black Legion given the fact that they can take multiple different marks of chaos.

I play World Eaters and Khorne Daemons and while I'm excited for some of the new rules and models, I'm kinda bummed that we can't benefit from the new Master of Possession or the new Malefic discipline (including the new summoning ability). I'm really hoping Khorne gets something special, even if it's an 8th ed Blood Tithe table or something.

I'm ordering the new shadow spear set tomorrow and I'm thinking of doing an iron warriors force with a few Daemon engines oblits and termies.

Played against chaos last 2 weeks at my local club with my Primaris Deathwatch and tabled then both times, my opponent had a few big squads of marines with Daemonettes and a load of chosen in rhinos and land raiders, the codex send really underpowered from the outside looking in?!

drakerocket wrote:
What allows you to get out of the claw after it moved and move and charge in the same turn? Am I forgetting something?

The pod moves in T1.

The dudes get out in T2 and make their move/advance/charge.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
It's funny because people still haven't realized that Daemon spells work on Oblits. Flikering Flames and VotLW gets you wounding on 2s, Boon of Change can increase their Melee damage or add a T, 3++ save on a 12 wound T5 unit means even the best weapons need to be shot at BS 2+ and you still probably wont kill all of them. Tzeench oblits will be hitting on 2s rerolling, wounding on 2s rerolling, have 3 re-rolls (GoF, MI, and CP reroll) for fleshmetal guns.

Fine and dandy, just leads to further emphasis why soup overall will damae the capabilities of armies played mono.

With that many points invested into it...is it really saying allies are broken?

Btw have you seen the new article? https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/21/21st-jan-introducing-better-beta-boltersgw-homepage-post-4/

Have they even read the Bolter beta rule?

because this was stated:

Your 10-man squads of Chaos Space Marines are great for holding objectives and offering fire support while the rest of your fast-moving, melee-focussed army speeds towards the foe to engage them in combat. Alternatively, you can use them to follow up your first wave of daemonically possessed gribblies and put the new beta Bolter Discipline rules to good use at close range.

whilest also linking the beta bolter rule.....
IN THE SAME SENTENCE!

It's funny that the cypher and fallen don't benefit from the beta bolter rule. I know they aren't used much at the moment, but if this rule becomes a thing it basically removes them from the game.

(Chosen are the same points and are a fraction more flexible in options, plus interact with more available stratagems).

I did a little quick math.
With average weapon rolls:
Against T7 3+
Newblits: 0,023 Wounds per point
Oldblits: 0,027 Wounds per point

Against T4 3+
Newblits: 0,030 Wounds per point
Oldblits: 0,036 Wounds per point

What the Newblits does better than Oldblits is stacking buffs on lots of shots, which means that each buff you put on them is more effective (in the same way you would prefer putting Endless Cacophany and VotlW on a full unit rather than a damaged one).
The ability to be buffed to put around 30-40 Wounds out per round onto a T7 3+/5++ target might be enough to make them worth taking.

I honestly think our best comparison is a broadside. Same cost, same toughness same armor. Broadside fires 8 str 7 ap -1 d3 weapons then 8 strength 5 ap 0 1 damage weapons at BS 4 (...which will probably never be bs 4 because tau, but we'll stick to no buffs). So 50% more wounds, and marginally superior fire power against some targets, solidly more against others. Oblits maybe pull ahead vs t8. No invulnerability on the broadside. I'd say 50% more wounds is probably a but better. They are also realistically much more survivable due to shield drones which trump any defense spells we could provide. Also better range on the broadside. Kind of seems to just completely win out =/

drakerocket wrote:
I honestly think our best comparison is a broadside. Same cost, same toughness same armor. Broadside fires 8 str 7 ap -1 d3 weapons then 8 strength 5 ap 0 1 damage weapons at BS 4 (...which will probably never be bs 4 because tau, but we'll stick to no buffs). So 50% more wounds, and marginally superior fire power against some targets, solidly more against others. Oblits maybe pull ahead vs t8. No invulnerability on the broadside. I'd say 50% more wounds is probably a but better. They are also realistically much more survivable due to shield drones which trump any defense spells we could provide. Also better range on the broadside. Kind of seems to just completely win out =/

I think the difference between bs4 and bs3 is fairly huge. Especially with so many minus to hit modifiers flying around. Plus no endless Cacophony, deepstriking or invul or close combat weapons is all fairly significant.

Not saying that broadsides aren't good but they aren't just better imo.

 small_gods wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
I honestly think our best comparison is a broadside. Same cost, same toughness same armor. Broadside fires 8 str 7 ap -1 d3 weapons then 8 strength 5 ap 0 1 damage weapons at BS 4 (...which will probably never be bs 4 because tau, but we'll stick to no buffs). So 50% more wounds, and marginally superior fire power against some targets, solidly more against others. Oblits maybe pull ahead vs t8. No invulnerability on the broadside. I'd say 50% more wounds is probably a but better. They are also realistically much more survivable due to shield drones which trump any defense spells we could provide. Also better range on the broadside. Kind of seems to just completely win out =/

I think the difference between bs4 and bs3 is fairly huge. Especially with so many minus to hit modifiers flying around. Plus no endless Cacophony, deepstriking or invul or close combat weapons is all fairly significant.

Not saying that broadsides aren't good but they aren't just better imo.

How often do you see a broadside with bs 4+ ?

drakerocket wrote:
I honestly think our best comparison is a broadside. Same cost, same toughness same armor. Broadside fires 8 str 7 ap -1 d3 weapons then 8 strength 5 ap 0 1 damage weapons at BS 4 (...which will probably never be bs 4 because tau, but we'll stick to no buffs). So 50% more wounds, and marginally superior fire power against some targets, solidly more against others. Oblits maybe pull ahead vs t8. No invulnerability on the broadside. I'd say 50% more wounds is probably a but better. They are also realistically much more survivable due to shield drones which trump any defense spells we could provide. Also better range on the broadside. Kind of seems to just completely win out =/

Im getting 2.444 wounds per round against tanks and 3,1 against MEQ.
Newblits are doing 3.5 against tanks and 4.4 against MEQ.
Which are the targets where Broadsides are doing more damage? They shoot 2 more shots at the lowest power setting for Newblits and 8 shots which are good for crowd clearing, so i guess they might be better against Guardsmen?

Edit: Even with BS3 Broadsides are 0.25 wounds behind Newblits against tanks, at BS2 they get better, but when you are having that amount of buffing you should start looking at how often you shoot Oblits without buffs

I think comparing stratergems, buffs etc is quite difficult. They both have ways of buffing hit rates, adding to wound etc but shooting twice for 2 CP makes oblits something worth consodering when you're stacking biffs on them.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
I honestly think our best comparison is a broadside. Same cost, same toughness same armor. Broadside fires 8 str 7 ap -1 d3 weapons then 8 strength 5 ap 0 1 damage weapons at BS 4 (...which will probably never be bs 4 because tau, but we'll stick to no buffs). So 50% more wounds, and marginally superior fire power against some targets, solidly more against others. Oblits maybe pull ahead vs t8. No invulnerability on the broadside. I'd say 50% more wounds is probably a but better. They are also realistically much more survivable due to shield drones which trump any defense spells we could provide. Also better range on the broadside. Kind of seems to just completely win out =/

I think the difference between bs4 and bs3 is fairly huge. Especially with so many minus to hit modifiers flying around. Plus no endless Cacophony, deepstriking or invul or close combat weapons is all fairly significant.

Not saying that broadsides aren't good but they aren't just better imo.

How often do you see a broadside with bs 4+ ?

Then you should incorporate the cost of the Markerlight until there. We can always just assume a Lord or Abigail rerolls if you want to do that equivalent.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
I honestly think our best comparison is a broadside. Same cost, same toughness same armor. Broadside fires 8 str 7 ap -1 d3 weapons then 8 strength 5 ap 0 1 damage weapons at BS 4 (...which will probably never be bs 4 because tau, but we'll stick to no buffs). So 50% more wounds, and marginally superior fire power against some targets, solidly more against others. Oblits maybe pull ahead vs t8. No invulnerability on the broadside. I'd say 50% more wounds is probably a but better. They are also realistically much more survivable due to shield drones which trump any defense spells we could provide. Also better range on the broadside. Kind of seems to just completely win out =/

I think the difference between bs4 and bs3 is fairly huge. Especially with so many minus to hit modifiers flying around. Plus no endless Cacophony, deepstriking or invul or close combat weapons is all fairly significant.

Not saying that broadsides aren't good but they aren't just better imo.

How often do you see a broadside with bs 4+ ?

Then you should incorporate the cost of the Markerlight until there. We can always just assume a Lord or Abigail rerolls if you want to do that equivalent.

Sure let's in corporate the cost of abbadon and marker lights, i bet you can field more abbys and Oblits then broadsides with markerlights.... /S

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
I honestly think our best comparison is a broadside. Same cost, same toughness same armor. Broadside fires 8 str 7 ap -1 d3 weapons then 8 strength 5 ap 0 1 damage weapons at BS 4 (...which will probably never be bs 4 because tau, but we'll stick to no buffs). So 50% more wounds, and marginally superior fire power against some targets, solidly more against others. Oblits maybe pull ahead vs t8. No invulnerability on the broadside. I'd say 50% more wounds is probably a but better. They are also realistically much more survivable due to shield drones which trump any defense spells we could provide. Also better range on the broadside. Kind of seems to just completely win out =/

I think the difference between bs4 and bs3 is fairly huge. Especially with so many minus to hit modifiers flying around. Plus no endless Cacophony, deepstriking or invul or close combat weapons is all fairly significant.

Not saying that broadsides aren't good but they aren't just better imo.

How often do you see a broadside with bs 4+ ?

Then you should incorporate the cost of the Markerlight until there. We can always just assume a Lord or Abigail rerolls if you want to do that equivalent.

Sure let's in corporate the cost of abbadon and marker lights, i bet you can field more abbys and Oblits then broadsides with markerlights.... /S

Tbf you can't easily compare points for buffing characters, psychic powers and stratergems. Oblits can have far more piled on them. Plus Abbadon is much more useful outside of buffing units than a cadre fireblade or a firesight marksman!

The problem, as many have pointed out, is that I'm guessing you're doing your math with averages; unfortunately, the inconsistency of the obliterator profile must also be weighted. Everyone would rather those be str 8 -2 ap 2 damage guns. But they aren't, so using that as your baseline math is problematic. There isn't a good way to solve that, but it is a considerable downside. Broadsides can send all of their strength 5 ap 0 shots at appropriate targets, and then do the same with the strength 7s. Oblits can't pick correct targets because you don't know what their profile will be.

Even if, on the average, oblits pull slightly ahead ignoring buffs (more are available to oblits, yes, but marker lights benefit tau more broadly beyond that single unit), broadsides benefit from better range and durability (and comparatively easy ways of actually surviving to turn 2), both of which make them far more functional.

drakerocket wrote:
The problem, as many have pointed out, is that I'm guessing you're doing your math with averages; unfortunately, the inconsistency of the obliterator profile must also be weighted. Everyone would rather those be str 8 -2 ap 2 damage guns. But they aren't, so using that as your baseline math is problematic. There isn't a good way to solve that, but it is a considerable downside. Broadsides can send all of their strength 5 ap 0 shots at appropriate targets, and then do the same with the strength 7s. Oblits can't pick correct targets because you don't know what their profile will be.

Even if, on the average, oblits pull slightly ahead ignoring buffs (more are available to oblits, yes, but marker lights benefit tau more broadly beyond that single unit), broadsides benefit from better range and durability (and comparatively easy ways of actually surviving to turn 2), both of which make them far more functional.

Also the pricetag on csm buffs is quite hefty, especially stuff like abbadon. Markerlights comparativly are cheap.

Thematically, a daemon engine or daemonkin army sounds really cool though. That master of possession psychic cursed earth that gives a +1 invul bubble is really good. The one that gives him another aura to reroll 1 to hit and wound is amazing too.

And I can see how a warpsmith in a heavy Daemon Engine army would be not only fluffy but also will definitely be put to good use because all the priority targets would be the engines in that case.

Have a warpsmith and MOP and a Daemon Prince as the core surrounded by Daemon Engines. Maybe two Defilers, a Forgefiend. If you go spearhead, you can stack on even more Daemon Engines.

You can slowly walk up the board while firing, since all your engines are now 4++ with cursed earth. Use Blasphemous machines so that one of your engines can walk and shoot heavy weapons without suffering a minus to BS.

Two turns in, you are at 12 inches or more down the board (if your warp smith and MOP advanced). Thats when you also deep strike in oblitierators into a mid table cover 6 inches from your MOP and let loose with a hail of fleshmetal gun shots. You now have daemon engines threatening his lines and at mid table where they also have the option to stand there and pour our heavy fire. They are also in a position to protect your oblits and your heroes.

Not sure how competitive it will be but its definitely thematic, fluffy and sounds fun.


For a more "competitive" version of this. Run MOP with three Kytan Ravagers up one side of the board. Then have Abbadon and cultists running up the centre of the board. Then whatever points you have left, take an Oblit or maybe a squad of mutilators lol. You will own the middle of the board because your whole army will be there. And other than the cultists who are immune to morale cos Abbadon and have tide of traitors, the rest of the army (the 3 Kytans) will be 4++ save because cursed earth. The 3 Kytans will be be shooting out 24 shots per turn plus rerolls. And well, Kytans are nasty in close combat too. And you have Abbadon ready to own the centre of the board and he will gut anyone who dares to try and get close to your MOP. And you got a ton of CP to spend on strategems. Best of all, you get to play with the new MOP model, and the new Abaddon model coming out as well. lol