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drakerocket wrote:
The problem, as many have pointed out, is that I'm guessing you're doing your math with averages; unfortunately, the inconsistency of the obliterator profile must also be weighted. Everyone would rather those be str 8 -2 ap 2 damage guns. But they aren't, so using that as your baseline math is problematic. There isn't a good way to solve that, but it is a considerable downside.

People now have access to 2 re-rolls concerning the shooting, 3 if their Tzeench players with GoF. That's pretty good way to solve that problem.

drakerocket wrote:
Broadsides can send all of their strength 5 ap 0 shots at appropriate targets, and then do the same with the strength 7s. Oblits can't pick correct targets because you don't know what their profile will be.

Oblits roll for S, AP, and D BEFORE choosing their targets. So they can send their shots at whatever best suits their weapons.

drakerocket wrote:
Even if, on the average, oblits pull slightly ahead ignoring buffs (more are available to oblits, yes, but marker lights benefit tau more broadly beyond that single unit).

Oblits have WS 3+ with AP -1 and D3 melee weapons. They also have a 3+ BS compared to the 4+ Broadesides have.

drakerocket wrote:
broadsides benefit from better range and durability (and comparatively easy ways of actually surviving to turn 2), both of which make them far more functional.

Broadsides can't DS, having to start on the table on Turn 1. They have 1 additional wound at the same T, and no Invul save.

Oblits out of the gate are better. They have two main abilities which make them better. Deepstrike which allows you to drop them where and when you need them, and 6 Assualt shots. These two in conjunction make Oblits more mobile.

Oh wow. I just realised that possessed can be taken in squads of 20! So, you can have two squads of 20 possessed, 2 greater possessed, Abaddon, MOP, then run a Daemon patrol for a herald (choose whichever mark you fancy).

So, that's 40 possessed with the MOP giving them a 4++ save running up the board. The greater possessed and the daemon herald will give them +2 str making them Str 7. And Abaddon makes them immune to morale and also gives them reroll to hit.

80 wounds at 4++ to chew through. And when they hit they will hit like a truck!

Does Chaos Daemon Loci affect CSM daemon units? (I think they do). A Khorne loci gives an aura of reroll to charge. A Slanaash Loci gives an aura of advance and charge...

Yes it does. It's still an expensive investment, that'll cost you 820 pts for 40 possessed plus 350ish for those hq

Three rerolls consumes more resources. None of those are free; they're just an extra tax to make the unit do what other units just have in a more stable fashion. One eats up your CP and your only CP reroll in the shooting phase, the other two require casts (themselves rolls) and of course the units which cast them.

And no, they can't pick very well. Because they don't know their ideal target before they fire, they might not be within 24", because 24" is pretty gakky heavy support fire range; I'd feel *much* different if they had 36".

Broadsides have 2 more wounds not 1 more; i.e. they have 50% more wounds. And while yes, the invuln is nice, it's also...not going to come up that often. These are 2+ save infantry models; particularly in the case of the broadside with its range, cover will be common; 1+ save means very few things would make a 5++ relevant, and even outside of cover -4 ap is uncommon.

Endless cacophony is probably the single saving grace and the only real advantage oblits have to off-set the advantages in toughness, range and ease of use of broadsides. But if your argument to counter their poor range and to save them from being obliterated turn 1 is that they'll deep strike, then all that endless cacophony does is make up for the turn of shooting you have to give up in order to deep strike. And if you're suggesting a heavily supported build, you're going to be very limited in where you can deepstrike while remaining in auras and psychic power range.

More to the point, Broadsides aren't really top of the meta anyway. I would really feel very differently about oblits if they had 36" range. Plug them into alpha legion, in some ruins to lay down fire while guarded with a -1 to hit 1+/5++? That would be legit. As it is though, for 115 points...the 20 point upgrade to contemptor seems like a no-brainer.

drakerocket wrote:
Three rerolls consumes more resources. None of those are free; they're just an extra tax to make the unit do what other units just have in a more stable fashion. One eats up your CP and your only CP reroll in the shooting phase, the other two require casts (themselves rolls) and of course the units which cast them.

Sure it does if you use all 3. Most of the time you might need 2, probably only 1. It wont be eating up your CP unless you roll poorly every turn.

drakerocket wrote:
And no, they can't pick very well. Because they don't know their ideal target before they fire, they might not be within 24", because 24" is pretty gakky heavy support fire range; I'd feel *much* different if they had 36".

Yes they do, read their profile it says "When you select this unit to shoot roll..." so before you pick the targets of your shooting you roll to see what you will be shooting. You know you have a 24" range and variable weapon stats and don't plan for it that is on you not the unit.

drakerocket wrote:
Broadsides have 2 more wounds not 1 more; i.e. they have 50% more wounds. And while yes, the invuln is nice, it's also...not going to come up that often. These are 2+ save infantry models; particularly in the case of the broadside with its range, cover will be common; 1+ save means very few things would make a 5++ relevant, and even outside of cover -4 ap is uncommon.

Yes, and you can set them in one spot and anything in range will die very quickly, but that's the rub you have to sit in 1 spot using your BS 4+ to kill things. They are good at area denial but bad at killing things, because they cant move around.

drakerocket wrote:
Endless cacophony is probably the single saving grace and the only real advantage oblits have to off-set the advantages in toughness, range and ease of use of broadsides. But if your argument to counter their poor range and to save them from being obliterated turn 1 is that they'll deep strike, then all that endless cacophony does is make up for the turn of shooting you have to give up in order to deep strike. And if you're suggesting a heavily supported build, you're going to be very limited in where you can deepstrike while remaining in auras and psychic power range.

Your only limited in so far as the movement of units and with warp time your movement should be pretty good.

drakerocket wrote:
More to the point, Broadsides aren't really top of the meta anyway. I would really feel very differently about oblits if they had 36" range. Plug them into alpha legion, in some ruins to lay down fire while guarded with a -1 to hit 1+/5++? That would be legit. As it is though, for 115 points...the 20 point upgrade to contemptor seems like a no-brainer.

But they don't have 36" range they have a 24" range. They can be buffed to have a 3++ for Tzeench players. They can shoot twice a turn and have a 5+ FnP for Slaanesh. Nurgle Oblits can have -1 to being hit and have models added and be healed to full.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
Three rerolls consumes more resources. None of those are free; they're just an extra tax to make the unit do what other units just have in a more stable fashion. One eats up your CP and your only CP reroll in the shooting phase, the other two require casts (themselves rolls) and of course the units which cast them.

Sure it does if you use all 3. Most of the time you might need 2, probably only 1. It wont be eating up your CP unless you roll poorly every turn.

drakerocket wrote:
And no, they can't pick very well. Because they don't know their ideal target before they fire, they might not be within 24", because 24" is pretty gakky heavy support fire range; I'd feel *much* different if they had 36".

Yes they do, read their profile it says "When you select this unit to shoot roll..." so before you pick the targets of your shooting you roll to see what you will be shooting. You know you have a 24" range and variable weapon stats and don't plan for it that is on you not the unit.

drakerocket wrote:
Broadsides have 2 more wounds not 1 more; i.e. they have 50% more wounds. And while yes, the invuln is nice, it's also...not going to come up that often. These are 2+ save infantry models; particularly in the case of the broadside with its range, cover will be common; 1+ save means very few things would make a 5++ relevant, and even outside of cover -4 ap is uncommon.

Yes, and you can set them in one spot and anything in range will die very quickly, but that's the rub you have to sit in 1 spot using your BS 4+ to kill things. They are good at area denial but bad at killing things, because they cant move around.

drakerocket wrote:
Endless cacophony is probably the single saving grace and the only real advantage oblits have to off-set the advantages in toughness, range and ease of use of broadsides. But if your argument to counter their poor range and to save them from being obliterated turn 1 is that they'll deep strike, then all that endless cacophony does is make up for the turn of shooting you have to give up in order to deep strike. And if you're suggesting a heavily supported build, you're going to be very limited in where you can deepstrike while remaining in auras and psychic power range.

Your only limited in so far as the movement of units and with warp time your movement should be pretty good.

drakerocket wrote:
More to the point, Broadsides aren't really top of the meta anyway. I would really feel very differently about oblits if they had 36" range. Plug them into alpha legion, in some ruins to lay down fire while guarded with a -1 to hit 1+/5++? That would be legit. As it is though, for 115 points...the 20 point upgrade to contemptor seems like a no-brainer.

But they don't have 36" range they have a 24" range. They can be buffed to have a 3++ for Tzeench players. They can shoot twice a turn and have a 5+ FnP for Slaanesh. Nurgle Oblits can have -1 to being hit and have models added and be healed to full.

Nope: You need to factor in cost, in this case, a Broadside is cheaper, even with marker light then a Oblit squad with MoP support.

Secondly: Again, no fixed Weapons profile = Bad and no You will not have access to that ammount of rerolls you so ardently preach BECAUSE THE MOP HAS NO MOBILITY.

Thirdly: Another Power for Warptiming adds ONE more sorcerer so now we ar no more talking about 345 +90 but +another 90 pts + equipment. FOR the chance, that warptime goes off, on top of the other Psy powers. that is unreliable and expensive point wise. SO not only do you have to consider CP for rerolls for the weapon but also for the Psy to get Rerolls without the need to use CP. Also if you want to add even more buffs, there comes a point where you will need even more Psykers which means even more points sunk into a unit.

Fourth: "Send them into a good spot". You seem to play on rather empty terrain there if this is your counterpoint.

zzz... really? I don't see the merits of debating Broadsides vs Obliterators. Its not like a CSM player can take Broadsides...

Eldenfirefly wrote:
zzz... really? I don't see the merits of debating Broadsides vs Obliterators. Its not like a CSM player can take Broadsides...

The point is, that not even cheaper broadsides are considered much to be played even though they are cheaper and not a huge ressouce sink. Basically Oblits are more expensive and bigger ressources Sinks, see the problem now?

We use the tools we do have. CSM cannot use Broadsides so I don't care about Broadsides. We can use Oblits however. Now, the points leak is not confirmed. (At least not until the actual stuff drops and we know for sure).

So, we might as well make the best out of it and see what are the possible ways we can put these expensive Oblits to use.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
zzz... really? I don't see the merits of debating Broadsides vs Obliterators. Its not like a CSM player can take Broadsides...

The point is, that not even cheaper broadsides are considered much to be played even though they are cheaper and not a huge ressouce sink. Basically Oblits are more expensive and bigger ressources Sinks, see the problem now?

Broadsides are played in all the top tau lists, they're a staple along with riptides.

Oblits cover a massive weakness for CSM and that's decent anti armour. We have lots of units good against chaff and TEQ. Apart from bringing a sub par castellan or maybe butcher cannon leviathans, it's sparse for killing knights etc.

I think you coild build a list around daemonkin, oblits, maulerfiends, kytan, MoP etc and have most bases covered.

 small_gods wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
zzz... really? I don't see the merits of debating Broadsides vs Obliterators. Its not like a CSM player can take Broadsides...

The point is, that not even cheaper broadsides are considered much to be played even though they are cheaper and not a huge ressouce sink. Basically Oblits are more expensive and bigger ressources Sinks, see the problem now?

Broadsides are played in all the top tau lists, they're a staple along with riptides.

Oblits cover a massive weakness for CSM and that's decent anti armour. We have lots of units good against chaff and TEQ. Apart from bringing a sub par castellan or maybe butcher cannon leviathans, it's sparse for killing knights etc.

I think you coild build a list around daemonkin, oblits, maulerfiends, kytan, MoP etc and have most bases covered.

And how do you intend to fuel that list with cp?

I usually run 2x daemon battalion with brims and nuglings and plaguebearers. But you can get a bat for about 200 points if you want. You can run almost any list with 14 CP.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Btw have you seen the new article? https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/21/21st-jan-introducing-better-beta-boltersgw-homepage-post-4/

Have they even read the Bolter beta rule?

because this was stated:

Your 10-man squads of Chaos Space Marines are great for holding objectives and offering fire support while the rest of your fast-moving, melee-focussed army speeds towards the foe to engage them in combat. Alternatively, you can use them to follow up your first wave of daemonically possessed gribblies and put the new beta Bolter Discipline rules to good use at close range.

whilest also linking the beta bolter rule.....
IN THE SAME SENTENCE!

13"-24" is close range. Especially when it was posted in direct contrast to the tactic that immediately preceded it, which was sitting them backfield holding objectives and taking potshots with their long ranged squad members.

So a Broadside was used because it is probably the closest thing which exists to the new obliterator, as not many other mini-dreads exist. But I guess if you'd prefer something chaos, cool; A contemptor dread has a 36 inch range, 8 heavy 8 ap -1 dam2 shots with a morale penalty; so two average rolls, one below average roll on an oblit's weapon profile with a -2 morale penalty; roughly evens out to an average oblit roll, and *also* has 25% more shots. It is a 2+ BS (sure, it degrades, but by the time it even degrades once, the oblit would be dead). It's move is twice that of an oblit, +6 wounds, +2 T, -1 armor save for +20 points.

So you pay around 15% more points for: +35%~ more firepower, probably doubled survivability and enough range to actually hit your targets without moving.

So even points, save 69 (since it's 23 points) on 3; so enough to buy a herald of tzeench who will buy you your reroll something like 60-70% of the time, okay sure.

Let's say you get a 9 strength -2 ap and 2 damage roll on your oblits with your reroll.

Vs T7 3+ you expect: right around 10.5 wounds for the oblits and 13.1 for the contemptors. If you *also* shell out CP for VoTLW you get to about 13.1, but of course now you're spending CP just to match up.

Ahhh, but endless cacophony will save the day! Eh...maybe? But it's not very practical. 24" makes it hard to acquire an ideal first turn target, and oblit's low suitability vs points/threat. To use it, you're probably deepstriking. And if you're deepstriking, you've now lost a turn of shooting vs the contemptors who can shoot much further; so you still end up being behind.

So oblits end up comparing *really* not well vs another chaos unit (and as I recall doredos have been shown to be even more efficient than contemptors).

This is what i'm getting as damage per point for Blits, Havocs and Contemptors (Which are the best choices, per point for raw damage that I have found). They are really close, except for the Oldblits who are a bit higher than the rest.
Unit Wound per point against T7 3+
Oldblits 0,036467236467
Autocan Contemptor 0,032206119163
Lascannon Havocs 0,031425364759
Newblits 0,030917874396

Seems like they compare really OK with other similar stuff. At least from a damage per point perspective.
From what I can tell,Blits are getting nerfed, because before they were the hands down best choice by about 15-20%, which was enhanced by how much you could buff them.

I have not done the math for Deredeos, but i don't think they are more efficient than Contemptors, They are 39 points more expensive, and for that you are getting 6 Heavy Bolter shots. It might have an edge against FLY with negative hit modifiers, but other than that i doubt they are better.

drakerocket wrote:
So a Broadside was used because it is probably the closest thing which exists to the new obliterator, as not many other mini-dreads exist. But I guess if you'd prefer something chaos, cool; A contemptor dread has a 36 inch range, 8 heavy 8 ap -1 dam2 shots with a morale penalty; so two average rolls, one below average roll on an oblit's weapon profile with a -2 morale penalty; roughly evens out to an average oblit roll, and *also* has 25% more shots. It is a 2+ BS (sure, it degrades, but by the time it even degrades once, the oblit would be dead). It's move is twice that of an oblit, +6 wounds, +2 T, -1 armor save for +20 points.

So you pay around 15% more points for: +35%~ more firepower, probably doubled survivability and enough range to actually hit your targets without moving.

So even points, save 69 (since it's 23 points) on 3; so enough to buy a herald of tzeench who will buy you your reroll something like 60-70% of the time, okay sure.

Let's say you get a 9 strength -2 ap and 2 damage roll on your oblits with your reroll.

Vs T7 3+ you expect: right around 10.5 wounds for the oblits and 13.1 for the contemptors. If you *also* shell out CP for VoTLW you get to about 13.1, but of course now you're spending CP just to match up.

Ahhh, but endless cacophony will save the day! Eh...maybe? But it's not very practical. 24" makes it hard to acquire an ideal first turn target, and oblit's low suitability vs points/threat. To use it, you're probably deepstriking. And if you're deepstriking, you've now lost a turn of shooting vs the contemptors who can shoot much further; so you still end up being behind.

So oblits end up comparing *really* not well vs another chaos unit (and as I recall doredos have been shown to be even more efficient than contemptors).

I mean you've used those 69 points really badly there. For a start you've rerolled the only stat that makes no difference to your t7 3+ target, not sure why. And a support character that does nothing to help their shooting attacks.

If you use a chaos lord. You get 12.4 wounds. If you take a master of possession casting one of his two powers, say infernal power. You get 14.5. Double shooting that's 2 predators killed rather than 1 predator down to one wound, for 2CP and an extra 29 points.

Plus it's knights I'm most worried about as there are soooooo many out there at the moment. VotLW really helps with that.

So, being on-par in shooting per point but being far worse for durability per point is the big downside here. And it also ignores range. Range is a very big deal.

So if the random dice roll of three ended up on AP in the previous example instead of strength then you'd go to about 13 wounds (assuming you didn't bump into a 5+ invuln save). If the damage ended up the 3 then it'd be 15.5. The average between the three possible combinations of 2 "2" rolls and 1 "3" ends up a bit lower than the contemptor as well. But if you ever roll a 1 on the damage, nothing will save that mediocrity. As to inefficient buffing, Gaze of Fate rerolls keep being brought up and nothing else can be afforded on the budget point difference between 3 Contemptors and 3 oblits. But even if you gave them a MoP instead, problems occur; if your argument is that you're deep striking, you won't get in range of Infernal Power so instead you get Mutated Invigoration (still make a little dicey by deepstriking but 18" is okay). 50% chance that power goes off, so roughly equal to 1.5 re-rolls on your dice. Not amazing and not going to dramatically shift the math.

And...again...even if oblits shot 30% more efficiently, which they don't, they are much more fragile and much shorter ranged. Even vs lascannons (the most favorable possible profile since it takes away any advantage of t7 vs t5) they're still only half as survivable as a contemptor. They won't survive a first turn on the field, probably won't have range to fire at what they want to turn one; deep striking loses you a whole turn of firing; that's a very big deal.

I think your best case scenario probably is against a knight. At which point loading up 3 deep striking oblits with VotL, EC, Prescience, and 2 rerolls (gaze and command) ends up getting you a dead rotate ion shields castelian if you got the death hex off (can't assume much, but if you guarantee at least 9 st / 2 damage or 8 st/3 damage it'll do the job). If you get str 9 3 damage you almost manage it without death hex. That's 3 successful psychic powers, 5 CP and around 560 points...but it is a dead knight, which is certainly useful. It's also a hell of a suicide run, really contingent on a small number of rolls and can't work turn 1 =/

I dunno. I don't really think they're good. I think they aren't junk and you more or less have to build around them because of how much support they require. Reserving 345 points of anti-tank until round 2 is a rough bag. They are going to die after 1 round of shooting because of how close they have to be and their poor durability profile.

If they were 95 points, I'd think they were solidly good. If they had 36" inch range, I'd think the same. If they were instead introduced as "Greater Obliterators" and were like Greater Possessed with the character keyword? More expensive but with some kind of oblit buff? That would have been amazing. As it is, I think they are mediocre in most scenarios, good for 1 thing and risky even at that one thing.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Btw have you seen the new article? https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/21/21st-jan-introducing-better-beta-boltersgw-homepage-post-4/

Have they even read the Bolter beta rule?

because this was stated:

Your 10-man squads of Chaos Space Marines are great for holding objectives and offering fire support while the rest of your fast-moving, melee-focussed army speeds towards the foe to engage them in combat. Alternatively, you can use them to follow up your first wave of daemonically possessed gribblies and put the new beta Bolter Discipline rules to good use at close range.

whilest also linking the beta bolter rule.....
IN THE SAME SENTENCE!

13"-24" is close range. Especially when it was posted in direct contrast to the tactic that immediately preceded it, which was sitting them backfield holding objectives and taking potshots with their long ranged squad members.

The point is you don't get use out of the bolter beta rule if you move! Except Bikes and termis.

drakerocket wrote:
So, being on-par in shooting per point but being far worse for durability per point is the big downside here. And it also ignores range. Range is a very big deal.

Oblits are glass cannons, even though contemptors will last longer, oblits will hit much harder when you take into account psychic powers and stratergems.

Psychic powers and stratagems that can be denied/failed?

You can't put a bad unit into a list on the hope of propping it up with stratagems because when you run into an army that can deny those stratagems, you're just left with a bad unit. It's bad list-building.

Psychic powers are a bit more reasonable to expect to go off, but you still need to factor the opportunity costs of saving CP re-rolls/building in Gaze of Fate etc, and the fact that you can fail them, and they can be denied.

If there's a chance you could run into Aeldari/GSC, you can't use Oblits. It's really that simple. They cost far too much to be dead weight in those matchups.

Honestly? It’s a fair bit of swings and roundabouts.

Contemptor has better range but is more vulnerable if you lose first turn. If there’s LOS-blocking terrain, or corner-hugging going on, it might not get an optimum target. Havocs are similar, and cannot be fairly assessed for DPP based on a unit of five, because you’re probably going to take some redshirts to take the first few wounds. There’s no point spending points on a unit that, after the first failed 3+, gives your opponent a Lascannon kill every subsequent fail.

Newblits can land in terrain for 1+ saves (or hug a tree for 0+ saves and fall back & shoot), can pick a drop zone to peek around an inconvenient building (or hide behind a convenient one), cannot be killed before they take their first shot (except by strats like Auspex Scan), and if they get charged by a minor screening unit have a better chance than before of swatting away the tarpit.

A niche twist on the latter - if you’re rolling Slaanesh Daemonkin and your Newblits start the turn entangled with something and Smite isn’t a viable exit strategy, Hysterical Frenzy could enable them to kick the pests away before the shooting phase.

 small_gods wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
So, being on-par in shooting per point but being far worse for durability per point is the big downside here. And it also ignores range. Range is a very big deal.

Oblits are glass cannons, even though contemptors will last longer, oblits will hit much harder when you take into account psychic powers and stratergems.

Oblits will last longer, they are more durable to small arms fire (S4 and below) and they wont get blasted off the table by turn 2.

Not to mention the simple fact that they can drop in and blast a Knight off the table in one turn.

2 CP, 3 spells, and 345 points for a good chance at killing a Knight on 1 turn is a price I'll pay.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
zzz... really? I don't see the merits of debating Broadsides vs Obliterators. Its not like a CSM player can take Broadsides...

The point is, that not even cheaper broadsides are considered much to be played even though they are cheaper and not a huge ressouce sink. Basically Oblits are more expensive and bigger ressources Sinks, see the problem now?

Did you seriously just say broadsides are not considered to be played?

Incredibly uninformed comment.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

drakerocket wrote:
So a Broadside was used because it is probably the closest thing which exists to the new obliterator, as not many other mini-dreads exist.

There is more similarity between Necorn destroyers and the new obliterators. Similar guns, cost, range and durability.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Oh wow. I just realised that possessed can be taken in squads of 20! So, you can have two squads of 20 possessed, 2 greater possessed, Abaddon, MOP, then run a Daemon patrol for a herald (choose whichever mark you fancy).

So, that's 40 possessed with the MOP giving them a 4++ save running up the board. The greater possessed and the daemon herald will give them +2 str making them Str 7. And Abaddon makes them immune to morale and also gives them reroll to hit.

80 wounds at 4++ to chew through. And when they hit they will hit like a truck!

Does Chaos Daemon Loci affect CSM daemon units? (I think they do). A Khorne loci gives an aura of reroll to charge. A Slanaash Loci gives an aura of advance and charge...

40 possessed in a single list...

Because who needs two kidneys?

Destroyers are 50 points and move 10 with 3+ armor? I mean, I guess you could compare them, but broadsides seem more similar.

I actually do think nurgle might be the way to go. A 0+ save will be hard to break and nurgle can revive whole oblits

drakerocket wrote:
Destroyers are 50 points and move 10 with 3+ armor? I mean, I guess you could compare them, but broadsides seem more similar.

I actually do think nurgle might be the way to go. A 0+ save will be hard to break and nurgle can revive whole oblits

And reliably heal them to full in the same turn.

I think when comparing to other Chaos shooty units, we also need to consider how capable they are of taking out rival shooty units. Like a poster above said. 3 Oblits backed by psychic and strategems can drop down and have a pretty good chance of killing one knight in that turn. And if they aren't killed, they can continue to put out that kind of hurt each turn.

If we put down a leviathan, or two comtemptors, or two squads of havocs. Can these kill a knight in turn 1?

At least Oblits dropping down can kill something and try and make back their points in turn 2. Everything after that is bonus. My Leviathan, comtemptor, havocs could get shot off the board turn 1 and then they didn't make back their points at all...

Not saying Oblits are godly. They are too expensive to be godly. But at least they can make back their points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, I just saw a battle report of the greater possessed in action. That thing is mean in combat! It occurs to me now that CSM can get a brigade without having too many slots wasted now.

3HQs (not hard). fast attack use 3 chaos spawn or 3 min squads of bikes, heavy support - no lack of options, 3 elites - 3 greater possessed are very good for running up the board along with your 6 troop choices.

The problem comes with the troop choices. 6 troop choices are rough when your basic troop choice is CSM. Maybe world eaters troops with greater possessed running up alongside? They can make Maulerfiends better too.

drakerocket wrote:
Destroyers are 50 points and move 10 with 3+ armor? I mean, I guess you could compare them, but broadsides seem more similar.

I actually do think nurgle might be the way to go. A 0+ save will be hard to break and nurgle can revive whole oblits

2 destroyers are not only similar in price but have almost identical shooting and are used the same way. Broadsides are long ranged castle units, BTW they aren't infantry which is one of the biggest things your overlooking.

But I think comparing oblits to anything from a xenos book is ultimately worthless. Apples and hand grenades.

I think I am ok with new obliterators. A set of three clocks in at 345, two sets of oldblits were 390. With EC and buffs, three outperform six old obliterators. If you get vected, you lose six shots but you still have 18 shots hitting on 2s, wounding with +1, which isn't too far off from what you get with 24 shots, but only half buffed.

Lose some wounds tho

I used 3 new oblits (new point cost, old models) and they did pretty ok. I dont know how i feel, im posting a video report of it eventually