"Mere mortals : Chaos cultists units do not gain the Black Crusaders legion trait."
So, it looks like Cultists will lose access to Legion traits with Vigilus Ablaze. Unfortunately, the trait is still limited to Daemon Prince, Infantry, Helbrute and bikers (you can read it in the blurry picture above). I'm quite disappointed, to say the least...
SHUPPET wrote: Running Black Legion without Abaddon is one of the worst suggestions I've heard for competitive play. Please don't listen to Red Corsair on that one.
I don't play tournaments, period. I play pick up games, and thats about as far as I take the game. I still play proper missions with proper lists, but i'm not facing loyal 32 or castellans every game.
SHUPPET wrote: Running Black Legion without Abaddon is one of the worst suggestions I've heard for competitive play. Please don't listen to Red Corsair on that one.
I'm of the opinion Black Legion would be a better army if CSMs where like Grey Hunters and could have a boltgun AND CCW. it'd synergize with their trait pretty well
Heaven forbid we fix Calvary units to get the Traits. Juggerlords would be just too broken with an extra attack on the charge I guess! Oh and those pesky Steed of Slaanesh Sorcerers striking first in combat!
Hmmm, that new chaos gate thingy terrain piece which gives invul to those near it. Could be a consideration to run alongside a trio of three chaos predator tanks.
Predator tanks have always suffered from being fragile. Now they get an invul from that terrain piece. Its not bad. Further more, a sorceror nearby gets his psychic casting buffed? That's a good candidate for prescience too.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Heaven forbid we fix Calvary units to get the Traits. Juggerlords would be just too broken with an extra attack on the charge I guess! Oh and those pesky Steed of Slaanesh Sorcerers striking first in combat!
Why are you even talking about index options like they care about them? Those are 100% legacy units that will never see updates.
And on the note of Abby, let's all hope he gets a big buff! Like gaining a whole 3 wounds, putting him up to 10! Because GW thinks thats a buff!
SHUPPET wrote: Running Black Legion without Abaddon is one of the worst suggestions I've heard for competitive play. Please don't listen to Red Corsair on that one.
I don't play tournaments, period. I play pick up games, and thats about as far as I take the game. I still play proper missions with proper lists, but i'm not facing loyal 32 or castellans every game.
High level play or not, the answer to the question is still the same.
Have a look at what Black Legion gives you.
First Among Traitors is a match up specific Warlord trait, that isn't worth taking on a generic Lord.
Let The Galaxy Burn is a low-impact stratagem with very niche usage anyway since the army already has re-rolls easily available.
Eye Of Night is a pretty meh relic.
The Legion Trait of run-and-gun is the only semi-useful thing other than Abaddon but still not something that will have much impact on a list each game, and Abaddon's Fearless aura is just better than the LD +1 buff.
If you're taking Black Legion, take Abaddon. Pointless Legion choice without him.
BrianDavion wrote:
SHUPPET wrote: Running Black Legion without Abaddon is one of the worst suggestions I've heard for competitive play. Please don't listen to Red Corsair on that one.
I'm of the opinion Black Legion would be a better army if CSMs where like Grey Hunters and could have a boltgun AND CCW. it'd synergize with their trait pretty well
Honestly though, what IS good as far as legions go for competitive anymore at baseline?
Renegades, Night Lords, Emp. Children, World Eaters, and Word Bearers are all fringe at best, garbage at worst, and the other 3 are ok at best from what it sounds like.
I mean all the Legions are mediocre to okay, it's CSM dex. But you take the best stuff from your Legion and build to it's strengths or else you're even worse than THAT level. Black Legion with no Abaddon may as well be legion-less. With Abaddon it's actually pretty decent.
Okay, I see your point. It's like playing World Eaters with no Berzerkers, or Night Lords with no raptors. Without playing to its strengths, the legion stays mediocre.
As for what is good, I think Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion and Black Legion are the best, and World Eaters and Emperor's Children are decent alternatives if you want to do what they do.
Well, I am not sure if a perfect list exists out there that can destroy any and all lists. Lots of lists have counters. Harder lists are often more specialisted, and counters do exist.
Take the Castellan, imperium soup list. So, we run Abaddon in black legion with tons of lascannon havocs and basic CSM squads with lascannons as well. Add on Ahriman and his castor buddies as a supreme command.
Now, the castellan has zero good targets to shoot at. We have Ahriman to cast death hex at 24 inches on it to remove its invul, and then mass lascannons to take it down to zero health.
Is it a "competitive" list? I am sure there are other lists out there that will stomp such a list for sure. But its an example of a list tailered to fight the Imperium soup Castellan list and its uses Abaddon and black legion to good effect.
As an aside. I just realised that Tzeentch possessed and obliterators can now get a 3++ invul save. Cursed earth from Master of possession and weaver of fates from a Tzeenth sorceror. That's pretty tasty. It might be worth considering for a 3 Obliterator unit. I mean, they are going to attract a lot of attention for their sheer firepower. Even without cacophony, 3 oblits will throw out 18 shots per turn. If they are deep struck into cover and given a 3++ from those two psychic. That's a 1+ normal save along with a 3++ invul save... on a T5 unit. Its gonna take a LOT to whittle that down. Your opponent might even focus so much on trying to kill that unit that he forgets everything else.
SHUPPET wrote: Running Black Legion without Abaddon is one of the worst suggestions I've heard for competitive play. Please don't listen to Red Corsair on that one.
I don't play tournaments, period. I play pick up games, and thats about as far as I take the game. I still play proper missions with proper lists, but i'm not facing loyal 32 or castellans every game.
High level play or not, the answer to the question is still the same.
Have a look at what Black Legion gives you.
First Among Traitors is a match up specific Warlord trait, that isn't worth taking on a generic Lord.
Let The Galaxy Burn is a low-impact stratagem with very niche usage anyway since the army already has re-rolls easily available.
Eye Of Night is a pretty meh relic.
The Legion Trait of run-and-gun is the only semi-useful thing other than Abaddon but still not something that will have much impact on a list each game, and Abaddon's Fearless aura is just better than the LD +1 buff.
If you're taking Black Legion, take Abaddon. Pointless Legion choice without him.
BrianDavion wrote:
SHUPPET wrote: Running Black Legion without Abaddon is one of the worst suggestions I've heard for competitive play. Please don't listen to Red Corsair on that one.
I'm of the opinion Black Legion would be a better army if CSMs where like Grey Hunters and could have a boltgun AND CCW. it'd synergize with their trait pretty well
No doubt.
more to the point I'm convinced whomever designed the legion traits belived they WHERE boltgun and CCW equipped. the trait is great for an army that wants to run up and get in your face quick. Black Legion would proably be the best Legion if their CSMs had the chain sword to be effective in melee combat. run em up the field advancing and then take a turn to get a rapid fire shot off before charging. effective and VERY CSMy
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, I am not sure if a perfect list exists out there that can destroy any and all lists. Lots of lists have counters. Harder lists are often more specialisted, and counters do exist.
Take the Castellan, imperium soup list. So, we run Abaddon in black legion with tons of lascannon havocs and basic CSM squads with lascannons as well. Add on Ahriman and his castor buddies as a supreme command.
Now, the castellan has zero good targets to shoot at. We have Ahriman to cast death hex at 24 inches on it to remove its invul, and then mass lascannons to take it down to zero health.
Is it a "competitive" list? I am sure there are other lists out there that will stomp such a list for sure. But its an example of a list tailered to fight the Imperium soup Castellan list and its uses Abaddon and black legion to good effect.
As an aside. I just realised that Tzeentch possessed and obliterators can now get a 3++ invul save. Cursed earth from Master of possession and weaver of fates from a Tzeenth sorceror. That's pretty tasty. It might be worth considering for a 3 Obliterator unit. I mean, they are going to attract a lot of attention for their sheer firepower. Even without cacophony, 3 oblits will throw out 18 shots per turn. If they are deep struck into cover and given a 3++ from those two psychic. That's a 1+ normal save along with a 3++ invul save... on a T5 unit. Its gonna take a LOT to whittle that down. Your opponent might even focus so much on trying to kill that unit that he forgets everything else.
I too think that's actually a decent way to run Black Legion. Just spamming CSM squads, but maybe with Plasma over Las since it synergises much better with their trait. TSons allies. I saw a list like that in here a little bit ago.
EDIT: Chosen synergise well with this gameplan too.
I've got back into 40k for 8th, used to be a chaos player from 2nd-4th but money issues made me sell my army. I'm looking at a chaos army next (AdMech are my main) and I'm thinking this kind of tactic could be useful, anyone care to tell me if/why I'd be wrong?
Renegade chapter
10berzerkers in rhino, Daemon prince with wings (none Khorne) and warptime.
Get berzerkers out of rhino (3") advance, advance up Daemon prince, warp time zerkers for another advance and can still charge. That's 16-27" then they can still charge. With being able to fight twice that's an easy distraction carnifex in the opponent's face while I can actually do something with the rest of my army.
I'd appreciate someone to CC the strat. I considered the same but a drill but the drill would lose them 7-12" of movement so wasn't sure if it's worth it. (Warp time could negate this but waiting till T2 could hinder the rest of the list having no huge distraction)
Also, can you have a Daemon prince of chaos undivided? Quick reading says no.
laam999 wrote: I've got back into 40k for 8th, used to be a chaos player from 2nd-4th but money issues made me sell my army. I'm looking at a chaos army next (AdMech are my main) and I'm thinking this kind of tactic could be useful, anyone care to tell me if/why I'd be wrong?
Renegade chapter
10berzerkers in rhino, Daemon prince with wings (none Khorne) and warptime.
Get berzerkers out of rhino (3") advance, advance up Daemon prince, warp time zerkers for another advance and can still charge. That's 16-27" then they can still charge. With being able to fight twice that's an easy distraction carnifex in the opponent's face while I can actually do something with the rest of my army.
I'd appreciate someone to CC the strat. I considered the same but a drill but the drill would lose them 7-12" of movement so wasn't sure if it's worth it. (Warp time could negate this but waiting till T2 could hinder the rest of the list having no huge distraction)
Also, can you have a Daemon prince of chaos undivided? Quick reading says no.
Well you would need to get the Berzerkers out of the rhino without disembarking, in order to make an attack move if i am not mistaken.
As for the daemonprince i think not. There is only Belakor that is completely unaligned.
Renegade zerkers can do some pretty nice stuff, for sure. Your big problem is going to be reliability of warptime - a DP has no cast buffs available, can be denied because he's in the middle of the board, and if he fails your 200pts of zerkers and your 72pt rhino are wasted.
Ahriman would synergise well with this plan - he can warptime from 9" away, avoiding denial range. He also has the cabal strat, giving him +3 to cast if accompanied by 2 DPs or 2 minimum squads of Rubrics.
Having said all this, it sounds like a turn-1 bumrush tactic, and those tend to be met with very easy screening counterplay.
It works. You disembark 3", move advance 6+d6. Then warptime them for another 6+d6. So, your zerkers would have moved 15+2d6 up the board. And then the renegade legion trait allows them to advance and charge.
It works for just one unit, but it does work.
If you want a more extreme version of this. Get a bastion. put it on the edge of your deployment line. Stuff 20 zerkers into it. Then use the above stated strategy. You will have potentially 20 zerkers in a first turn charge into his lines. On his part, he will have to blow up your bastion to get at your Zerkers, and that's no mean feat.
they may just get into a screen, but the fact they're there and taking attention away from a lot of the other things in the army is the purpose, not to win the battle alone, but to force the opponent to focus on them.
I use my dragoons for AdMech to fill this role and find that having a fast a powerful threat helps me then focus my fire where its needed.
I'll reread the Ahriman sheet and see if that would work for me.
Pretty annoying that while the long standing "Chaos can't have nice things" has drastically improved on the models front in recent years we keep getting kicked in the ass rules wise.
Got to reign in those OP Cultists. Wouldn't want to get within spitting distance of the balanced Guardsmen dominating tournament play.
To be fair, cultists were supposed to be mainly just cannon fodder for CSM. They weren't supposed to be the key things that win you the battles for CSM.
Eldenfirefly wrote: To be fair, cultists were supposed to be mainly just cannon fodder for CSM. They weren't supposed to be the key things that win you the battles for CSM.
TBF that would require the basic CSM to actually be capable of winning battles in the first place.
As it stands, if this changes goes through and BL isn't the only one that get's shafted that way we have a serious problem. Inbetween the newblits price hike and the further nerfing of the only decent troop choice left the only thing we still have is DP and they are done better by the other CSM legions.
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Eldarain wrote: Pretty annoying that while the long standing "Chaos can't have nice things" has drastically improved on the models front in recent years we keep getting kicked in the ass rules wise.
Got to reign in those OP Cultists. Wouldn't want to get within spitting distance of the balanced Guardsmen dominating tournament play.
Conveniently you forgot the 25% pts budget Knight that get's to gobble all the Cp the guard generates that the guard incidentaly has no good use for.
These days, with imperium soup being so popular. A lot of lists are running lots of dakka in order to handle all those infantry guardsmen and other horde. In that kind of environment, I am really not sure if having cultists who have a 6+ save are really all that wonderful anymore.
Picture an imperium soup list that runs 6 squads of infantry and 6 heavy mortar teams (hidden out of sight of course). Its quite probably that will kill one 40 man cultist squad per turn. You won't even get to use tide of traitors... If you run two such squad. He will just kill it over two turns. One in each turn.
Its great in casual games, and if your opponent is a newbie and isn't expecting tide of traitors. But if you are facing an opponent who has been on the receiving end of mass cultists before. He will know how to handle them.
"6 heavy mortar teams " Nobody runs heavy mortars mate, way to pts expensive.
Secondly all the dakka good against Cultists or guardsmen is even better against PA so huray.
Third: There is a thing called CP, you might heard of it, and how it is conected to cheap Troop choices. You know what troop choice isn't cheap? CSM marines. You know why this is especially important for us CSM players? Because we need more CP then other armies due to our stratagems needing to compensate our lackluster efficency.
Therefore CSM won't get played until they get more efficent at generating CP, cheaper (also more efficent) or get broken rules.
So this atm is just a pure nerf for an codex which is more MEH than good.
Hmmm, I have seen mortar teams quite frequently in lists. So, maybe not heavy mortar, but mortar teams are just as effective against cultists. I am not quite following that all the dakka good against cultists or guardsmen are even better against power armor. The lasgun of a guardsmen wounds a cultist on a 4+, and the cultist is likely to fail the 6+ save. (Its not easy trying to hide 40 cultists in cover). CSM can much more easily setup in cover for a 2+ save. And those lasguns need 5+ to wound a CSM. So, would a storm of lasguns really be better against power armor than against a bunch of cultists with a 6+ save?
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmmm, I have seen mortar teams quite frequently in lists. So, maybe not heavy mortar, but mortar teams are just as effective against cultists. I am not quite following that all the dakka good against cultists or guardsmen are even better against power armor. The lasgun of a guardsmen wounds a cultist on a 4+, and the cultist is likely to fail the 6+ save. (Its not easy trying to hide 40 cultists in cover). CSM can much more easily setup in cover for a 2+ save. And those lasguns need 5+ to wound a CSM. So, would a storm of lasguns really be better against power armor than against a bunch of cultists with a 6+ save?
Marine might have better save yes but also cost more points.
If mortar kills 30 pts marines and 20 pts cultists for example which one it's better directed at?
BTW 9 regular mortars as cadians will kill 7.65 cultists so 40 cultists don't go poof that fast actually. To get 40 you then need 32 more. That's 131 cadian lasgun shots or 66 cadians at FRFSRF long range, 33 at rapid fire range. Or 379 pts + officers. Actually bit more due to sergeant pistols rather than lasgun.
There's reason why cultists are used rather than marines...
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmmm, I have seen mortar teams quite frequently in lists. So, maybe not heavy mortar, but mortar teams are just as effective against cultists. I am not quite following that all the dakka good against cultists or guardsmen are even better against power armor. The lasgun of a guardsmen wounds a cultist on a 4+, and the cultist is likely to fail the 6+ save. (Its not easy trying to hide 40 cultists in cover). CSM can much more easily setup in cover for a 2+ save. And those lasguns need 5+ to wound a CSM. So, would a storm of lasguns really be better against power armor than against a bunch of cultists with a 6+ save?
You were talking about Heavy mortars before: Heavy mortars are 60+ pts without crew and a FW unit. You will see regular mortars, mostly the Cadian or Catachan brand.
There is one key difference between Cultists and Spacemarines: Cultists can be recycled once, space marines can't.
Also a dead cultists is 5 pts lost, a dead space marines is 13. And more importantly you pay 65 pts for a troop slot filling with CSM whilest you pay 15 pts less for a slot filled with cultists. This here is issue one
The 40 man cultists blob is basically a diversion tactic and what is more important, due to the bad scalling of stratagems cultists get way more bang for their buck for a Stratagem use. This is issue two.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmmm, I have seen mortar teams quite frequently in lists. So, maybe not heavy mortar, but mortar teams are just as effective against cultists. I am not quite following that all the dakka good against cultists or guardsmen are even better against power armor. The lasgun of a guardsmen wounds a cultist on a 4+, and the cultist is likely to fail the 6+ save. (Its not easy trying to hide 40 cultists in cover). CSM can much more easily setup in cover for a 2+ save. And those lasguns need 5+ to wound a CSM. So, would a storm of lasguns really be better against power armor than against a bunch of cultists with a 6+ save?
Marine might have better save yes but also cost more points.
If mortar kills 30 pts marines and 20 pts cultists for example which one it's better directed at?
BTW 9 regular mortars as cadians will kill 7.65 cultists so 40 cultists don't go poof that fast actually. To get 40 you then need 32 more. That's 131 cadian lasgun shots or 66 cadians at FRFSRF long range, 33 at rapid fire range. Or 379 pts + officers. Actually bit more due to sergeant pistols rather than lasgun.
There's reason why cultists are used rather than marines...
Also this.
Even Bubbles from lords scale better with Cultists then with CSM.
Well, might as well dive in: I'm getting back into the hobby properly after a few years of not being particularly active, and after trying (and not getting on with) Death Guard, I want to run Black Legion.
With Black Crusaders no longer working on Cultists (not to mention that I don't really want to paint lots of miniatures to start playing), what is the viability of multiple small CSM units, with a plasma gun and combi-plasma each? I mostly play casual, but there is a local tournament scene that friends of mine play in that I'm interested in joining.
Want to get started with the Chaos part of Shadowspear, the new Abaddon and 30 CSM models, to run as either regular CSM or Chosen.
All theoretical at the minute but... thinking of 20 Alpha CSM bolters standing by the new stargate with a CL and CS. 20 bodies, -1 to hit, with an invuln. save should be pretty hard to shift.
With prescience and Endless Cacophony that's 80 (in rapid fire range) S4 hitting on 2+, re-rolling 1s. Against T8, they're wounding on 5s with VotLW.
Is there anything else that can improve their wound roll?
I think we shouldn't be too quick to bang the salt drum about CSMs. Vigilus II is coming, and it looks to be almost completely chaos themed. Specialist detachments can completely transform a unit - for example vet intercessors (really bad news for CSM, actually) or IF Centurions.
Finally, you know the GW way, new models tend to get good new rules. After a little wobble, intercessors are now a decent troop choice. I expect a similar process to occur for the new apple of GW's eye, CSMs. It's just hard to see it this way, because of the years of neglect. But the day is here.
I can see the benefits of going 40 cultists, because like you said, stategems, psychics, and stuff all scale better on a 40 man unit. But let's divide this into a few parts.
If we are saying cultists are cheap, because you can have 3 squads of 10 for 150 points, vs CSM, who need 195 points for 3 squads of 5. Is that 45 points really going to win the game for you? You can't even buy two extra chaos spawn with that. On the flip side though. I think 3 squads of 5 CSM hunkering down in cover on objectives will last a lot longer against small arms fire than 3 squads of 10 cultists. I will be generous and give you 5 more points, so you can have 4 squads of 10 cultists shall we?
A unit of mortars is just 33 points and fires 3d6str 4 shots. 3 units of mortars don't even break 100 points. IG soup lists run them all the time. 3 units of mortars spending turn after turn shelling your 4 squads of 10 cultists in cover (5+ save )vs shelling 3 squads of CSM in cover (2+ save). Which do you think will last longer? My money is on the CSM.
In fact, let's have a mirror matchup. 4 squads of 10 cultists in cover exchanging shots with 3 squads of CSM in cover. I will even let the cultists go first. Everyone is 24 inches apart. The 40 cultists are shooting out 40 shots per turn (initially) with a 4+ to hit, 5+ to wound against a save of 2+ (cover). You kill ... 1 CSM, maybe 2 if you are lucky. Now the 13 or 14 CSM shoot back with bolter discipline at 3+ to hit, 5+ to wound, against a 5+ save (cover). Anyway, 26 shots will work out to 7.7 cultists dead. Morale would probably finish off the remaining 3 in that squad. CSM of 5 per squad don't need to worry about morale. So, one cultists squad dies per turn.
End of 4 turns, the 4 cultist squads are dead, or almost dead. The CSM suffered 1 casualty per turn. They are not even down a squad after 4 rounds of exchanging fire.
So, if I wanted to keep stuff cheap, would I be willing to spend 45 more points so that I can get 3 squads of 5 CSM instead of 4 squads of cultists? From a durability and ability to hunker down and stand on objectives standpoint, I think I would rather take the 3 squads of CSM. Key thing is ... having cultists with their 6+ save gives the imperium soup lists a very obvious target to use all their mortar teams and infantry lasguns... on your cultists! But if you have CSM squads in cover instead, then all those flashlights and mortars are going to be a lot less useful.
But what if they take plasma guns, heavy flamers, etc etc? Well, that's what the rest of your army is for right? 3 squads of CSM are only 195 points. So you have 1805 more points to spend on other much scarier stuff that will draw the attention of their plasma, heavy flamers, lascannons, etc etc. More importantly, now their lasgun and mortars are a lot less effective. If they want to use their heavier weapons to shoot at your basic CSM troop squads rather than the 1805 worth of other nasties you will have, well, I think I wouldn't mind really!
3 or 4 squads of 10 cultists is basically a free gift of points to most armies out there. Anything that even looks at a squad of 10 cultists would probably kill it fairly easily. a bunch of CSM in cover are going to be a lot harder to shift. I just don't see how gifting the opponent 150 worth of cultists to kill is going to be worth the saving of 45 points so that I can buy 2 chaos spawn? I might as well spend 45 more points and make it a lot harder for my opponent to get first strike, and make him take a lot longer to kill those 3 CSM squads.
Cultists get a free refill + teleport. Basically cultists cost 2.5 pts each rather than 5. Can't compete with that. There is no universe where 5 CSM are better than 13 cultists, unfortunately. Add in the tide, and suddenly it's 5CSM against 20 - 25 cultists for the same points.
45 points does win games when the performance of the more expensive unit isn't compensating at all. 45 points is the difference between getting Kharn or a generic equipped Lord for World Eaters. 45 points is 4 Plasma Guns or Autocannons for your Havocs.
The datasheet is not going to change so much that they'll be worth taking, mark my words.
lare2 wrote: All theoretical at the minute but... thinking of 20 Alpha CSM bolters standing by the new stargate with a CL and CS. 20 bodies, -1 to hit, with an invuln. save should be pretty hard to shift.
With prescience and Endless Cacophony that's 80 (in rapid fire range) S4 hitting on 2+, re-rolling 1s. Against T8, they're wounding on 5s with VotLW.
Is there anything else that can improve their wound roll?
If you are using 20 CSM, just set them up in cover and you don't really need that stargate at all. In cover you will have a 2+ save. Even shooting lascannons with ap -3 would still net you a 5+ save. So, why would you even need that stargate. And who is going to shoot lascannons at CSM ? I would put stuff which will attract the attention of heavy weapons beside the stargate if I am going to use it. Like maybe 3 lascannon predator tanks, because those definitely attract lascannon shots or worse.
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topaxygouroun i wrote: Cultists get a free refill + teleport. Basically cultists cost 2.5 pts each rather than 5. Can't compete with that. There is no universe where 5 CSM are better than 13 cultists, unfortunately. Add in the tide, and suddenly it's 5CSM against 20 - 25 cultists for the same points.
Like I said at the start of my long post. Strategems and psychics obviously scale better with 40 people. So there is a place for 40 cultists (and tide of traitors obviously works far better on 40 than on a squad of 10). But if you are taking min squads just to get a batalion for that 5 cp, then I feel that its worth squeezing out 45 more points to take 3 CSM squads of 5 instead of of 3 cultists squads of 10.
BTW, people who have never faced tide of traitors will get cheesed by it. Experienced veterans who have faced it before will try and make sure they wipe out your 40 man cultist squad just so that you never have the chance to use it at all.
lare2 wrote: All theoretical at the minute but... thinking of 20 Alpha CSM bolters standing by the new stargate with a CL and CS. 20 bodies, -1 to hit, with an invuln. save should be pretty hard to shift.
With prescience and Endless Cacophony that's 80 (in rapid fire range) S4 hitting on 2+, re-rolling 1s. Against T8, they're wounding on 5s with VotLW.
Is there anything else that can improve their wound roll?
If you are using 20 CSM, just set them up in cover and you don't really need that stargate at all. In cover you will have a 2+ save. Even shooting lascannons with ap -3 would still net you a 5+ save. So, why would you even need that stargate. And who is going to shoot lascannons at CSM ? I would put stuff which will attract the attention of heavy weapons beside the stargate if I am going to use it. Like maybe 3 lascannon predator tanks, because those definitely attract lascannon shots or worse.
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topaxygouroun i wrote: Cultists get a free refill + teleport. Basically cultists cost 2.5 pts each rather than 5. Can't compete with that. There is no universe where 5 CSM are better than 13 cultists, unfortunately. Add in the tide, and suddenly it's 5CSM against 20 - 25 cultists for the same points.
Like I said at the start of my long post. Strategems and psychics obviously scale better with 40 people. So there is a place for 40 cultists (and tide of traitors obviously works far better on 40 than on a squad of 10). But if you are taking min squads just to get a batalion for that 5 cp, then I feel that its worth squeezing out 45 more points to take 3 CSM squads of 5 instead of of 3 cultists squads of 10.
BTW, people who have never faced tide of traitors will get cheesed by it. Experienced veterans who have faced it before will try and make sure they wipe out your 40 man cultist squad just so that you never have the chance to use it at all.
It's not about getting cheesed or not. You have to go out of your way literally shooting down 40 cultists. Not 30, not 39, all 40. Not all armies have enough anti ifantry shooting to take down 40 wounds in a turn. In fact most armies don't. Which will mean you will have to redirect some of your anti-tank shooting hitting cultists as well. And at that point cultists have done their thing already, tide or no tide. And if there is like 5 of them out of line of sight, that's it.
And CSM can't even benefit from tide. A stratagem so good it had to get nerfed in a faq AND was single handedly responsible for raising the cost of the cultists to 5 pts alltogether.
Even at MSU, cultists are just better every time. Bolter drill is not enough with the bolter being hands down the single most underwhelming weapon in the game, and otherwise the purpose is pretty much the same in both units. only one of them is actually cheaper. Even in thosuand sons, which have ap-2 in their bolters, a free psyker as part of the unit, an in house invul save and All is dust, which practically gives them double cover save bonus (and 4++ also if you need it) changing from cultists to rubrics is not happening.
This is just not the version of the power armor, unfortunately.
Most armies can't handle cultists? I totally disagree. The most common lists now are IG soup with a castellan. They can obliterate a 40 man cultist unit just fine with their 6 to 8 squads of lasguns and mortars in support. Yes, hide those 5 cultist out of line of sight, and so that's why you save the mortars for the last. They don't need line of sight at all.
I watched a game where 4 knights faced off against a horde army of cultists and characters like Abaddon and daemon prince, etc. At the end of the game, the CSM player was tabled.
If you have a competitive list that can handle the very common imperium soup plus castellan out there, then that same list should have no problems killing 40 cultists.
Need to kill them in a single turn though.your lasguns can be out of double tap range. you could give weaver of fates on your cultists, now you need to kill 60 of them in a turn. The imperium + castellan soups have like 32 dudes in there. How are they killing 40 cultists?
Still, no matter all of this. you HAVE to kill them. This is the power of the cultists. Even if you can kill them, you have to do it and do it in a single turn. You will have to make choices in your shooting phase. What choices do the CSM force you to take instead?
I think those with 32 dudes in them are bringing 3 knights. Those are more knight lists. one castellan is barely 600 points thereabouts. That leaves you 1400 points worth of IG you can use. You can easily squeeze a ton of guardsmen into that. A squad of CSM in cover sitting on an objective cannot be easily shot off the board. He then needs to devote either serious enough ranged firepower to do it, or he needs send in his heavy hitting melee to get the job done. Those are tactical choices he has to make too.
I am not saying 40 cultists are bad, don't get me wrong. They are great. But a batallion needs 3 troops and are you really going to bring 120 cultists? You can only use tide of traitors once in the whole game. so, minimum squad of 10 cultists vs min squad of 5 CSM? I actually think the CSM aren't worse off. So, I would rather go with one squad of 40 cultists, and two squad of CSM in my batallion rather than go all cultists for my troop choices.
they run 9 normal mortars and often 2-3 other indirect fire weapons (basilisk or vigilus wyverns), guard can kill tons of cultists each turn if they want, Ig right now is an almost impossible to win matchup for a pure chaos list (i consider Ig player know what he is doing) unless you play the old same well know list (cultist spam+Abbadon), vengeance for Cadia is a nail in the coffin for standard basic chaos list (a clear example of bad rules design), you need allied, until the game will remain what it is, pure chaos need allied or broken rules to compete at high level.
As I announced earlier, here's what I learned from my first game with the new Shadowspear models:
Master of Possession
Nothing special or unexpected. He's a caster and was my warlord with the "Warplord" WT to help him better cast Cursed Earth and Infernal Power. 7/10
Venomcrawler
Since I also ran a Maulerfiend I could compare the two directly. Both were quite good. As always, we need to run at least two Maulerfiends/Venomcrawlers to have some redundancy in case they blow one up on the way to their target. In the end I found that the Venomcrawler is a good all-rounder and surprisingly tough with the buffs from the MoP and a Warpsmith for repairs. That way my Spider of Doom healed D3 + 2 each turn (D3 + 1 on the first turn since it wasn't in CC). The Maulerfiend is the better beatstick in melee thanks to its many attacks. I already ordered a second Crawler since I love the model and I think that for 130p it is reasonably priced and a viable asset to the army. 7/10
Obliterators
Christ, they are EXPENSIVE! I ran a unit of two and sadly almost always rolled a 1 for their DMG (even with CP re-roll). I parked a Lord behind them for re-rolls and a Sorcerer to cast Prescience on them. No surprises here. With all those buffs they still dished out the damage and were even able to bludgeon their way out of CC with support from their Chaos Lord. Small arms fire couldn't really hurt them and since I ran 3 daemon engines (Defi, Maulerfiend, Venomcrawler) my opponent's AT guns had other targets to attend to. They are probably too expensive for tournament level play but in casual games I think they are fine. 6/10
Greater Possessed
Other than the Venomcrawler's guns his aura ability isn't really useful. My Defiler already hits at S8/S16 and the Maulerfiend is also beefy enough. His real value was in being a cheap bodyguard who would intercept chargers and keep them away from my Warlord. He's probably better when taken with Possessed, Warp Talons or Chaos Spawn etc. 6/10
vaklor4 wrote: So this is half tactics half painting, but fakk it, I'M A MAN.
Firstly, is Abby essential for a black legion army? Is it basically like not running Ahriman in T-sons, where it basically just makes no sense not to?
Secondly, would a red/gold paint scheme be fine when running a black legion army? I really don't want to repaint my army, but World Eaters has gotten stale to me (only so many times I can play rhino rush), Renegades lose out on WAY too many important things to play, and Word Bearers are...Well, useless, compared to the better legions like BL and AL.
Abigail is like the main reason the Black Legion trait is so bad. It was written under the assumption you're always taking him and making use of his auras.
This is a fine theory but it doesn't really hold up, Calgar and Gullimun both have similar auras and smurfs still have one of the best traits. Black legion trait sucks, but at least they have Abby, poor word bearers totally got the shaft. I think for your theory to hold water Games workshop would need to actually write consistent rules sets
To answer the question though, you don't need to take abbadon, but he is really strong in certain lists when you build around him and it really depends on the size of the game.
As for painting, I'd play some games as is before changing your armies look on impulse. World eaters may get some new ways to play in the next book after all.
And if you'll notice, Word Bearers have one of THE best Warlord traits and Relics. Strategem requires a lot of building around though, which is why I'm playing with how to tackle a summoning castle and make it Word Bearers and not suck.
This is mostly a consistency though when it comes to the main Heroes. I'd argue how lame Sautekh is as a Dynasty because you have the Stormlord to use. Goffs have Ghazzy and their trait is easily the worst. Abigail was already talked about.
Prophets of flesh have Urien
Cult of Strife have lelith
Ulthwe have Eldrad
For feths sake nearly every Tau special HQ is T'au sept lol Cadia and Catachan also have the best Specials and far and away doctrines
The list goes on too
Your definitely cherry picking for that theory to hold water. I see where your going, but again, your giving way too much credit to GW here. Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence or however it goes.
vaklor4 wrote: So this is half tactics half painting, but fakk it, I'M A MAN.
Firstly, is Abby essential for a black legion army? Is it basically like not running Ahriman in T-sons, where it basically just makes no sense not to?
Secondly, would a red/gold paint scheme be fine when running a black legion army? I really don't want to repaint my army, but World Eaters has gotten stale to me (only so many times I can play rhino rush), Renegades lose out on WAY too many important things to play, and Word Bearers are...Well, useless, compared to the better legions like BL and AL.
Abigail is like the main reason the Black Legion trait is so bad. It was written under the assumption you're always taking him and making use of his auras.
This is a fine theory but it doesn't really hold up, Calgar and Gullimun both have similar auras and smurfs still have one of the best traits. Black legion trait sucks, but at least they have Abby, poor word bearers totally got the shaft. I think for your theory to hold water Games workshop would need to actually write consistent rules sets
To answer the question though, you don't need to take abbadon, but he is really strong in certain lists when you build around him and it really depends on the size of the game.
As for painting, I'd play some games as is before changing your armies look on impulse. World eaters may get some new ways to play in the next book after all.
And if you'll notice, Word Bearers have one of THE best Warlord traits and Relics. Strategem requires a lot of building around though, which is why I'm playing with how to tackle a summoning castle and make it Word Bearers and not suck.
This is mostly a consistency though when it comes to the main Heroes. I'd argue how lame Sautekh is as a Dynasty because you have the Stormlord to use. Goffs have Ghazzy and their trait is easily the worst. Abigail was already talked about.
Prophets of flesh have Urien
Cult of Strife have lelith
Ulthwe have Eldrad
For feths sake nearly every Tau special HQ is T'au sept lol Cadia and Catachan also have the best Specials and far and away doctrines
The list goes on too
Your definitely cherry picking for that theory to hold water. I see where your going, but again, your giving way too much credit to GW here. Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence or however it goes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: Running Black Legion without Abaddon is one of the worst suggestions I've heard for competitive play. Please don't listen to Red Corsair on that one.
He asked a specific question in a none competitive context. He even asked about painting for feths sake. You realize tactics still apply in none hyper competitive formats right? This is CSM we are talking about, there is only so much lemonade you can squeeze from a turd.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: I mean all the Legions are mediocre to okay, it's CSM dex. But you take the best stuff from your Legion and build to it's strengths or else you're even worse than THAT level. Black Legion with no Abaddon may as well be legion-less. With Abaddon it's actually pretty decent.
Some folks paint their models and care how they present on the table (not accusing you of not doing this BTW) So while Abbadon IS clearly the best perk to the black legion in large scale games, he fething sucks in 1000pt or lower games. He's just way to pricey. So for example, unless I play 1500 or more points I don't feel he's necessary.
The best two legion traits are clearly AL and IW. But neither are amazing enough I'd fault someone for playing any of the others. Your making it sound like context isn't a factor when it is. If we are only discussing try hard lists then this entire thread is in trouble lol. CSM is not near the top of the stack, not even close ATM.
Seeing as Cult of Strife is the worst Wych Cult and Ulthwe is middle of the pack at best...how does that help your case?
vaklor4 wrote: So this is half tactics half painting, but fakk it, I'M A MAN.
Firstly, is Abby essential for a black legion army? Is it basically like not running Ahriman in T-sons, where it basically just makes no sense not to?
Secondly, would a red/gold paint scheme be fine when running a black legion army? I really don't want to repaint my army, but World Eaters has gotten stale to me (only so many times I can play rhino rush), Renegades lose out on WAY too many important things to play, and Word Bearers are...Well, useless, compared to the better legions like BL and AL.
Abigail is like the main reason the Black Legion trait is so bad. It was written under the assumption you're always taking him and making use of his auras.
This is a fine theory but it doesn't really hold up, Calgar and Gullimun both have similar auras and smurfs still have one of the best traits. Black legion trait sucks, but at least they have Abby, poor word bearers totally got the shaft. I think for your theory to hold water Games workshop would need to actually write consistent rules sets
To answer the question though, you don't need to take abbadon, but he is really strong in certain lists when you build around him and it really depends on the size of the game.
As for painting, I'd play some games as is before changing your armies look on impulse. World eaters may get some new ways to play in the next book after all.
And if you'll notice, Word Bearers have one of THE best Warlord traits and Relics. Strategem requires a lot of building around though, which is why I'm playing with how to tackle a summoning castle and make it Word Bearers and not suck.
This is mostly a consistency though when it comes to the main Heroes. I'd argue how lame Sautekh is as a Dynasty because you have the Stormlord to use. Goffs have Ghazzy and their trait is easily the worst. Abigail was already talked about.
Prophets of flesh have Urien
Cult of Strife have lelith
Ulthwe have Eldrad
For feths sake nearly every Tau special HQ is T'au sept lol Cadia and Catachan also have the best Specials and far and away doctrines
The list goes on too
Your definitely cherry picking for that theory to hold water. I see where your going, but again, your giving way too much credit to GW here. Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence or however it goes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: Running Black Legion without Abaddon is one of the worst suggestions I've heard for competitive play. Please don't listen to Red Corsair on that one.
He asked a specific question in a none competitive context. He even asked about painting for feths sake. You realize tactics still apply in none hyper competitive formats right? This is CSM we are talking about, there is only so much lemonade you can squeeze from a turd.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: I mean all the Legions are mediocre to okay, it's CSM dex. But you take the best stuff from your Legion and build to it's strengths or else you're even worse than THAT level. Black Legion with no Abaddon may as well be legion-less. With Abaddon it's actually pretty decent.
Some folks paint their models and care how they present on the table (not accusing you of not doing this BTW) So while Abbadon IS clearly the best perk to the black legion in large scale games, he fething sucks in 1000pt or lower games. He's just way to pricey. So for example, unless I play 1500 or more points I don't feel he's necessary.
The best two legion traits are clearly AL and IW. But neither are amazing enough I'd fault someone for playing any of the others. Your making it sound like context isn't a factor when it is. If we are only discussing try hard lists then this entire thread is in trouble lol. CSM is not near the top of the stack, not even close ATM.
Seeing as Cult of Strife is the worst Wych Cult and Ulthwe is middle of the pack at best...how does that help your case?
Cult of strife is not the worst wych obsession. Your talking out your bum now. It's arguably the strongest one. Same with Ulthwe. But then I could also point out you ignoring the other half of the examples a shared.
New previews for black legion are up. I'm really trying to imagine what purpose any of it will serve. That Angelbane bolter is actually really solid in my mind, but what would you really stick it on? Best I can come up with is a sorc on a bike; sure either a lord or a termie lord could use it but...probably you're not likely to have either of those things.
Sorc on bike is probably something that'd be okay to use in a black legion detachment. Because BL has such a crappy bonus, I think you're better off just taking things which wouldn't benefit anyway; i.e. daemon engines and characters.
...Honestly, if they're doing new termies and abadon....would it really kill them to to take a look at something to make a Land Raider more viable? Like an assault vehicle strategy or a points drop / suitability increase? I also wonder if we won't get termies to be pointed like their imperium counterparts instead of randomly much more expensive.
vaklor4 wrote: So this is half tactics half painting, but fakk it, I'M A MAN.
Firstly, is Abby essential for a black legion army? Is it basically like not running Ahriman in T-sons, where it basically just makes no sense not to?
Secondly, would a red/gold paint scheme be fine when running a black legion army? I really don't want to repaint my army, but World Eaters has gotten stale to me (only so many times I can play rhino rush), Renegades lose out on WAY too many important things to play, and Word Bearers are...Well, useless, compared to the better legions like BL and AL.
Abigail is like the main reason the Black Legion trait is so bad. It was written under the assumption you're always taking him and making use of his auras.
This is a fine theory but it doesn't really hold up, Calgar and Gullimun both have similar auras and smurfs still have one of the best traits. Black legion trait sucks, but at least they have Abby, poor word bearers totally got the shaft. I think for your theory to hold water Games workshop would need to actually write consistent rules sets
To answer the question though, you don't need to take abbadon, but he is really strong in certain lists when you build around him and it really depends on the size of the game.
As for painting, I'd play some games as is before changing your armies look on impulse. World eaters may get some new ways to play in the next book after all.
And if you'll notice, Word Bearers have one of THE best Warlord traits and Relics. Strategem requires a lot of building around though, which is why I'm playing with how to tackle a summoning castle and make it Word Bearers and not suck.
This is mostly a consistency though when it comes to the main Heroes. I'd argue how lame Sautekh is as a Dynasty because you have the Stormlord to use. Goffs have Ghazzy and their trait is easily the worst. Abigail was already talked about.
Prophets of flesh have Urien
Cult of Strife have lelith
Ulthwe have Eldrad
For feths sake nearly every Tau special HQ is T'au sept lol Cadia and Catachan also have the best Specials and far and away doctrines
The list goes on too
Your definitely cherry picking for that theory to hold water. I see where your going, but again, your giving way too much credit to GW here. Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence or however it goes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: Running Black Legion without Abaddon is one of the worst suggestions I've heard for competitive play. Please don't listen to Red Corsair on that one.
He asked a specific question in a none competitive context. He even asked about painting for feths sake. You realize tactics still apply in none hyper competitive formats right? This is CSM we are talking about, there is only so much lemonade you can squeeze from a turd.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: I mean all the Legions are mediocre to okay, it's CSM dex. But you take the best stuff from your Legion and build to it's strengths or else you're even worse than THAT level. Black Legion with no Abaddon may as well be legion-less. With Abaddon it's actually pretty decent.
Some folks paint their models and care how they present on the table (not accusing you of not doing this BTW) So while Abbadon IS clearly the best perk to the black legion in large scale games, he fething sucks in 1000pt or lower games. He's just way to pricey. So for example, unless I play 1500 or more points I don't feel he's necessary.
The best two legion traits are clearly AL and IW. But neither are amazing enough I'd fault someone for playing any of the others. Your making it sound like context isn't a factor when it is. If we are only discussing try hard lists then this entire thread is in trouble lol. CSM is not near the top of the stack, not even close ATM.
Seeing as Cult of Strife is the worst Wych Cult and Ulthwe is middle of the pack at best...how does that help your case?
Cult of strife is not the worst wych obsession. Your talking out your bum now. It's arguably the strongest one. Same with Ulthwe. But then I could also point out you ignoring the other half of the examples a shared.
Advancing + Charging and reroll Charges or S4 + morale immunity > an extra attack the first round of combat
Ulthwe is middle of the road because vehicles can already get the same effect for a few points, making them already more effective just like how Iron Hands Ven Dreads are bad, and I can argue for the benefit of Iyanden for Guardian bombs at least.
drakerocket wrote: New previews for black legion are up. I'm really trying to imagine what purpose any of it will serve. That Angelbane bolter is actually really solid in my mind, but what would you really stick it on? Best I can come up with is a sorc on a bike; sure either a lord or a termie lord could use it but...probably you're not likely to have either of those things.
Sorc on bike is probably something that'd be okay to use in a black legion detachment. Because BL has such a crappy bonus, I think you're better off just taking things which wouldn't benefit anyway; i.e. daemon engines and characters.
...Honestly, if they're doing new termies and abadon....would it really kill them to to take a look at something to make a Land Raider more viable? Like an assault vehicle strategy or a points drop / suitability increase? I also wonder if we won't get termies to be pointed like their imperium counterparts instead of randomly much more expensive.
Nothing in the preview offers something as simple but effective as the Indominus Crusade's doubling fire power strat, every BL strat screams "get something nice in this specific scenario and/or position" meanwhile Indominus Crusade's strat is basically "do what your intercessors want to do but at double the efficiency"
I would say the BL strats scale up with large units better, but none of them are as plug-in-and-play as I would like them to be
drakerocket wrote: New previews for black legion are up. I'm really trying to imagine what purpose any of it will serve. That Angelbane bolter is actually really solid in my mind, but what would you really stick it on? Best I can come up with is a sorc on a bike; sure either a lord or a termie lord could use it but...probably you're not likely to have either of those things.
Sorc on bike is probably something that'd be okay to use in a black legion detachment. Because BL has such a crappy bonus, I think you're better off just taking things which wouldn't benefit anyway; i.e. daemon engines and characters.
Sorceror in terminator armour has possibilities. Give him that angelbane bolter, also give him the warlord trait that gives reroll to 1 to bringers of despair 6 inches around him. Then deep strike him along with a bunch of Plasma terminators. He casts prescience on the termis and throws off a smite, shoots his angelbane bolter. Now the plasma terminators are at 2+ to hit with his aura giving them reroll 1 to hit as well. Overcharging is definitely a thing. You can do that all with just one sorceror lord who now even has a good shooting weapon too. Said Sorceror Lord is a lot cheaper than deep striking in Abbadon with the Termis.
So, you can have Abbadon footslogging up, giving fearless and reroll to hit to your battleline, while still having the sorceror lord who can deep strike behind enemy lines with the termis and can do psychic and provide that reroll aura to help the termis. I dunno though... 10 terminators spitting out 40 plasma shots was a thing only at the start of 8th ed. Now, with all the horde armies out there, screening is pretty easy...
At least black legion has more relics to choose from now. I would take the angelbane bolter over the eye of night any day.
That's not a bad use of it, though I'd probably prefer giving them mark of slaanesh and using delightful agonies rather than a smite (also use endless cacophony that way!)
With all these reroll to hit everywhere, black legion is a good candidate for overcharged plasma spam. A bike squad can double tap 6 plasma shots and use the spear tip strategem to reroll. Then Abaddon can move advance with a battle line that includes 40 cultists, two squads of plasma CSM. And maybe backed up by even more plasma wielding Chosen behind. The whole mass move advance and shoots first turn so don't overcharge yet.
Second turn is where the fun really begins, everything should be within good range to really start the overcharged plasma spam. Including the plasma termis that will also deep strike behind enemy lines with the character that also gives them reroll due to the Chosen of the warmaster warlord trait. I wonder how many plasma shots we can actually manage this way... lol
Trying to think of what unit would be best for Tip of the Spear... Some Forgeworld biggies and the KLoS seem like obvious choices but I'm looking for something non-FW and preferably cheaper than the KLoS At this point I really wish we had JP Chosen... although a MSU Bike squad also seems nice. 6 safe overcharged plasma shots and 12 Combi-Bolter shots can be quite nasty for 1CP (I'm assuming it's going to cost 1 CP).
Specialist Detachment also seems nice... Get some Khorne Termies with Icon of Wrath and Chainfists (Or twin LC against hordes) and point at target TEQ. Those guys actually have a realistic chance to reach CC and use the Brutal Subjugation strat.
SHUPPET wrote: Running Black Legion without Abaddon is one of the worst suggestions I've heard for competitive play. Please don't listen to Red Corsair on that one.
He asked a specific question in a none competitive context. He even asked about painting for feths sake. You realize tactics still apply in none hyper competitive formats right? This is CSM we are talking about, there is only so much lemonade you can squeeze from a turd.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: I mean all the Legions are mediocre to okay, it's CSM dex. But you take the best stuff from your Legion and build to it's strengths or else you're even worse than THAT level. Black Legion with no Abaddon may as well be legion-less. With Abaddon it's actually pretty decent.
Some folks paint their models and care how they present on the table (not accusing you of not doing this BTW) So while Abbadon IS clearly the best perk to the black legion in large scale games, he fething sucks in 1000pt or lower games. He's just way to pricey. So for example, unless I play 1500 or more points I don't feel he's necessary.
The best two legion traits are clearly AL and IW. But neither are amazing enough I'd fault someone for playing any of the others. Your making it sound like context isn't a factor when it is. If we are only discussing try hard lists then this entire thread is in trouble lol. CSM is not near the top of the stack, not even close ATM.
I'm sorry but none of what you are saying makes sense. He literally asked "Firstly, is Abby essential for a black legion army? Is it basically like not running Ahriman in T-sons, where it basically just makes no sense not to?"
The answer to that question is unmistakably yes. That's exactly what it's like. Hell it's even worse, because TSons offers other strong units and strats other than Ahriman. Black Legion really don't give you anything at all without Abaddon. Saying "well it's CSM and you can't polish a turd" doesn't make sense. He was talking about what makes sense when you run the faction. You're basically saying that either way it sucks, okay, that doesn't answer the question though.
Are YOU aware that tactics are still relevant in casual games? He's asking for help on what makes sense and what's good, saying that Black Legion doesn't need to have Abaddon is just flat wrong in context of his question. As I said, the answer remains the same either way whether or not you are playing at high level - can you still run the faction without Abby, and basically just play Black Legion without the one thing that makes them good? Sure, and I'm sure you're aware you can do this with every Legion. He asked about what makes sense for Black Legion, and as you can see by his response:
vaklor4 wrote: Okay, I see your point. It's like playing World Eaters with no Berzerkers, or Night Lords with no raptors. Without playing to its strengths, the legion stays mediocre.
My answer was correct, as this is exactly what BL without Abaddon was, and clearly what he was asking about. In fact's, it's actually worse than the example he gave here, because at least World Eaters have a decent Legion trait and relic, and Nightlords have a good stratagem.
Although it was bundled up with them in the Index for some reason, they are just Khorne specific. Not WE.
This. Actually, you can run a Khorne Lord of skulls with any chaos army if you take it as a super heavy auxiliary detachment. Its like how you can run other CSM detachments to get sorcerors in a world eaters army. And you can make your Khorne lord of skulls belong to any legion except for those that can't take mark of Khorne.
Is it just me or is the greater possessed a more expensive and worse in every way Bloodmaster.
Take a bloodmaster, make it's signature ability only effect heretic astartes daemons, instead of all daemons, in an army that GW apparently forgot they wrote in such a way that taking daemons in your detachments breaks them and they don't have the heretic astartes keyword. (so it's only going to effect a small handful of units, most of which don't really even benefit from the +1 str much)
now take away it's 2nd ability to allow for re-rolling charges.
then increase it's points by 14
and you have a greater possessed. Worse in every way, effects less units, and costs more. GW, you ever read your own rules?
I dug my old khorne daemonkin out after seeing shadowspear, but unfortunately in a book called "daemonkin" GW seems to have forgotten to make daemonkin armies actually work again by fixing keywords and allowing synergies. Oh well, maybe in 9e.
Danny slag wrote: Is it just me or is the greater possessed a more expensive and worse in every way Bloodmaster.
Take a bloodmaster, make it's signature ability only effect heretic astartes daemons, instead of all daemons, in an army that GW apparently forgot they wrote in such a way that taking daemons in your detachments breaks them and they don't have the heretic astartes keyword. (so it's only going to effect a small handful of units, most of which don't really even benefit from the +1 str much)
now take away it's 2nd ability to allow for re-rolling charges.
then increase it's points by 14
and you have a greater possessed. Worse in every way, effects less units, and costs more. GW, you ever read your own rules?
I dug my old khorne daemonkin out after seeing shadowspear, but unfortunately in a book called "daemonkin" GW seems to have forgotten to make daemonkin armies actually work again by fixing keywords and allowing synergies. Oh well, maybe in 9e.
Bloodmasters only let you reroll charges in a Khorne detachment. Greater Possessed will also benefit from Legion Traits, which is the same sort of rule.
Furthermore, Greater Possessed were meant to synergize with daemon engines, the cult of destruction, and possessed - not with daemons. Indeed, Greater Possessed and the Malefic psychic discipline don't even work with Thousand Sons or Death Guard. This isn't an oversight. It's by design.
Do also note that a Greater Possessed has +1 M, +1 T, +1 W, and +2 A over a Bloodmaster, in addition to a 3+ Save. So it's not as if the Bloodmaster is strictly better.
Danny slag wrote: Is it just me or is the greater possessed a more expensive and worse in every way Bloodmaster.
Take a bloodmaster, make it's signature ability only effect heretic astartes daemons, instead of all daemons, in an army that GW apparently forgot they wrote in such a way that taking daemons in your detachments breaks them and they don't have the heretic astartes keyword. (so it's only going to effect a small handful of units, most of which don't really even benefit from the +1 str much)
now take away it's 2nd ability to allow for re-rolling charges.
then increase it's points by 14
and you have a greater possessed. Worse in every way, effects less units, and costs more. GW, you ever read your own rules?
I dug my old khorne daemonkin out after seeing shadowspear, but unfortunately in a book called "daemonkin" GW seems to have forgotten to make daemonkin armies actually work again by fixing keywords and allowing synergies. Oh well, maybe in 9e.
Bloodmasters only let you reroll charges in a Khorne detachment. Greater Possessed will also benefit from Legion Traits, which is the same sort of rule.
Furthermore, Greater Possessed were meant to synergize with daemon engines, the cult of destruction, and possessed - not with daemons. Indeed, Greater Possessed and the Malefic psychic discipline don't even work with Thousand Sons or Death Guard. This isn't an oversight. It's by design.
Do also note that a Greater Possessed has +1 M, +1 T, +1 W, and +2 A over a Bloodmaster, in addition to a 3+ Save. So it's not as if the Bloodmaster is strictly better.
I wasn't talking about them working with death guard or thousand sons, I was saying that unit in DAEMONKIN should probably effect daemons, and an army called DAEMONKIN should probably be able to work with daemons. If its by design its really poor design because it doesn't even fit the narrative they're trying to sell.
greater possessed abilities:
+1 str to a very restrictive list of units
Bloodmaster abilities:
+1 str to a less restrictive list of units
re-roll charges
To reroll charges, Possessed have access to the Banner that does it, and everything else has enough movement speed it doesn't matter. Or they shoot so it would be for defensive melee.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: To reroll charges, Possessed have access to the Banner that does it, and everything else has enough movement speed it doesn't matter. Or they shoot so it would be for defensive melee.
You also need to put the Bloodmaster in a <Daemon> detachment if you want it to have the re roll charge Locus. Honestly I think that's a useless comparison to make. Furthermore, 2 Bloodmaster auras do not stack whereas 1 Bloodmaster + 1 GP does.
Where are people on the hype meter for the Lord Discordant? I love me some daemon engines so I'd really like to see him be good and make Maulerfiends good, too. Given that he's a big guy with a big weapon maybe he'll be a decent alternative to the daemon prince for a smashy HQ.
I think people are holding back and waiting to see if he is below 10 wounds or not, and the rest of his stats. He certainly looks cool ! : ) And his aura is not bad, something that daemon engines needed.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I think people are holding back and waiting to see if he is below 10 wounds or not, and the rest of his stats. He certainly looks cool ! : ) And his aura is not bad, something that daemon engines needed.
I have a hard time imagining the mount is enough to push him about 10 wound given that mounts don't tend to add very many wounds (I don't think any mounts give more than the 2 the Juggernaut gives?). If he is over 10 wounds then he'll probably be considered entirely as a warpsmith+daemon engine, putting him more in the 12-14 range than the dreaded 10 wounds.
Arachnofiend wrote: I have a hard time imagining the mount is enough to push him about 10 wound given that mounts don't tend to add very many wounds (I don't think any mounts give more than the 2 the Juggernaut gives?). If he is over 10 wounds then he'll probably be considered entirely as a warpsmith+daemon engine, putting him more in the 12-14 range than the dreaded 10 wounds.
I think around the 8 wounds mark is most likely but although being above 10 wounds would hurt him there's the chance if him being 12 wounds with a 4++ like a chaos lord. With cursed earth, weaver, miasma or delightful agonies. He could be quite survivable still.
The CSM preview continues the tradition of "jump through 10 hoops to do something conditionally that loyalists can do by having a dude standing nearby", you can't even use "muh large unit scaling" as an excuse for this one
Continuity wrote: The CSM preview continues the tradition of "jump through 10 hoops to do something conditionally that loyalists can do by having a dude standing nearby", you can't even use "muh large unit scaling" as an excuse for this one
I don't think that's fair, because everyone knows that Roboute is throwing around a lot of imbalancing into the Loyalist Scum codex, which in turn leaked into most of the other PA armies.
vaklor4 wrote: So this is half tactics half painting, but fakk it, I'M A MAN.
Firstly, is Abby essential for a black legion army? Is it basically like not running Ahriman in T-sons, where it basically just makes no sense not to?
Secondly, would a red/gold paint scheme be fine when running a black legion army? I really don't want to repaint my army, but World Eaters has gotten stale to me (only so many times I can play rhino rush), Renegades lose out on WAY too many important things to play, and Word Bearers are...Well, useless, compared to the better legions like BL and AL.
Abigail is like the main reason the Black Legion trait is so bad. It was written under the assumption you're always taking him and making use of his auras.
This is a fine theory but it doesn't really hold up, Calgar and Gullimun both have similar auras and smurfs still have one of the best traits. Black legion trait sucks, but at least they have Abby, poor word bearers totally got the shaft. I think for your theory to hold water Games workshop would need to actually write consistent rules sets
To answer the question though, you don't need to take abbadon, but he is really strong in certain lists when you build around him and it really depends on the size of the game.
As for painting, I'd play some games as is before changing your armies look on impulse. World eaters may get some new ways to play in the next book after all.
And if you'll notice, Word Bearers have one of THE best Warlord traits and Relics. Strategem requires a lot of building around though, which is why I'm playing with how to tackle a summoning castle and make it Word Bearers and not suck.
This is mostly a consistency though when it comes to the main Heroes. I'd argue how lame Sautekh is as a Dynasty because you have the Stormlord to use. Goffs have Ghazzy and their trait is easily the worst. Abigail was already talked about.
Prophets of flesh have Urien
Cult of Strife have lelith
Ulthwe have Eldrad
For feths sake nearly every Tau special HQ is T'au sept lol Cadia and Catachan also have the best Specials and far and away doctrines
The list goes on too
Your definitely cherry picking for that theory to hold water. I see where your going, but again, your giving way too much credit to GW here. Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence or however it goes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: Running Black Legion without Abaddon is one of the worst suggestions I've heard for competitive play. Please don't listen to Red Corsair on that one.
He asked a specific question in a none competitive context. He even asked about painting for feths sake. You realize tactics still apply in none hyper competitive formats right? This is CSM we are talking about, there is only so much lemonade you can squeeze from a turd.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: I mean all the Legions are mediocre to okay, it's CSM dex. But you take the best stuff from your Legion and build to it's strengths or else you're even worse than THAT level. Black Legion with no Abaddon may as well be legion-less. With Abaddon it's actually pretty decent.
Some folks paint their models and care how they present on the table (not accusing you of not doing this BTW) So while Abbadon IS clearly the best perk to the black legion in large scale games, he fething sucks in 1000pt or lower games. He's just way to pricey. So for example, unless I play 1500 or more points I don't feel he's necessary.
The best two legion traits are clearly AL and IW. But neither are amazing enough I'd fault someone for playing any of the others. Your making it sound like context isn't a factor when it is. If we are only discussing try hard lists then this entire thread is in trouble lol. CSM is not near the top of the stack, not even close ATM.
Seeing as Cult of Strife is the worst Wych Cult and Ulthwe is middle of the pack at best...how does that help your case?
Cult of strife is not the worst wych obsession. Your talking out your bum now. It's arguably the strongest one. Same with Ulthwe. But then I could also point out you ignoring the other half of the examples a shared.
Advancing + Charging and reroll Charges or S4 + morale immunity > an extra attack the first round of combat
Ulthwe is middle of the road because vehicles can already get the same effect for a few points, making them already more effective just like how Iron Hands Ven Dreads are bad, and I can argue for the benefit of Iyanden for Guardian bombs at least.
Your clearly not a Dark Eldar or Eldar player lol. Feel free to post these opinions in the relevant threads if you want to learn more though. Short answer is your very misinformed though.
vaklor4 wrote: So this is half tactics half painting, but fakk it, I'M A MAN.
Firstly, is Abby essential for a black legion army? Is it basically like not running Ahriman in T-sons, where it basically just makes no sense not to?
Secondly, would a red/gold paint scheme be fine when running a black legion army? I really don't want to repaint my army, but World Eaters has gotten stale to me (only so many times I can play rhino rush), Renegades lose out on WAY too many important things to play, and Word Bearers are...Well, useless, compared to the better legions like BL and AL.
Abigail is like the main reason the Black Legion trait is so bad. It was written under the assumption you're always taking him and making use of his auras.
This is a fine theory but it doesn't really hold up, Calgar and Gullimun both have similar auras and smurfs still have one of the best traits. Black legion trait sucks, but at least they have Abby, poor word bearers totally got the shaft. I think for your theory to hold water Games workshop would need to actually write consistent rules sets
To answer the question though, you don't need to take abbadon, but he is really strong in certain lists when you build around him and it really depends on the size of the game.
As for painting, I'd play some games as is before changing your armies look on impulse. World eaters may get some new ways to play in the next book after all.
And if you'll notice, Word Bearers have one of THE best Warlord traits and Relics. Strategem requires a lot of building around though, which is why I'm playing with how to tackle a summoning castle and make it Word Bearers and not suck.
This is mostly a consistency though when it comes to the main Heroes. I'd argue how lame Sautekh is as a Dynasty because you have the Stormlord to use. Goffs have Ghazzy and their trait is easily the worst. Abigail was already talked about.
Prophets of flesh have Urien
Cult of Strife have lelith
Ulthwe have Eldrad
For feths sake nearly every Tau special HQ is T'au sept lol Cadia and Catachan also have the best Specials and far and away doctrines
The list goes on too
Your definitely cherry picking for that theory to hold water. I see where your going, but again, your giving way too much credit to GW here. Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence or however it goes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: Running Black Legion without Abaddon is one of the worst suggestions I've heard for competitive play. Please don't listen to Red Corsair on that one.
He asked a specific question in a none competitive context. He even asked about painting for feths sake. You realize tactics still apply in none hyper competitive formats right? This is CSM we are talking about, there is only so much lemonade you can squeeze from a turd.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: I mean all the Legions are mediocre to okay, it's CSM dex. But you take the best stuff from your Legion and build to it's strengths or else you're even worse than THAT level. Black Legion with no Abaddon may as well be legion-less. With Abaddon it's actually pretty decent.
Some folks paint their models and care how they present on the table (not accusing you of not doing this BTW) So while Abbadon IS clearly the best perk to the black legion in large scale games, he fething sucks in 1000pt or lower games. He's just way to pricey. So for example, unless I play 1500 or more points I don't feel he's necessary.
The best two legion traits are clearly AL and IW. But neither are amazing enough I'd fault someone for playing any of the others. Your making it sound like context isn't a factor when it is. If we are only discussing try hard lists then this entire thread is in trouble lol. CSM is not near the top of the stack, not even close ATM.
Seeing as Cult of Strife is the worst Wych Cult and Ulthwe is middle of the pack at best...how does that help your case?
Cult of strife is not the worst wych obsession. Your talking out your bum now. It's arguably the strongest one. Same with Ulthwe. But then I could also point out you ignoring the other half of the examples a shared.
Advancing + Charging and reroll Charges or S4 + morale immunity > an extra attack the first round of combat
Ulthwe is middle of the road because vehicles can already get the same effect for a few points, making them already more effective just like how Iron Hands Ven Dreads are bad, and I can argue for the benefit of Iyanden for Guardian bombs at least.
Your clearly not a Dark Eldar or Eldar player lol. Feel free to post these opinions in the relevant threads if you want to learn more though. Short answer is your very misinformed though.
vaklor4 wrote: So this is half tactics half painting, but fakk it, I'M A MAN.
Firstly, is Abby essential for a black legion army? Is it basically like not running Ahriman in T-sons, where it basically just makes no sense not to?
Secondly, would a red/gold paint scheme be fine when running a black legion army? I really don't want to repaint my army, but World Eaters has gotten stale to me (only so many times I can play rhino rush), Renegades lose out on WAY too many important things to play, and Word Bearers are...Well, useless, compared to the better legions like BL and AL.
Abigail is like the main reason the Black Legion trait is so bad. It was written under the assumption you're always taking him and making use of his auras.
This is a fine theory but it doesn't really hold up, Calgar and Gullimun both have similar auras and smurfs still have one of the best traits. Black legion trait sucks, but at least they have Abby, poor word bearers totally got the shaft. I think for your theory to hold water Games workshop would need to actually write consistent rules sets
To answer the question though, you don't need to take abbadon, but he is really strong in certain lists when you build around him and it really depends on the size of the game.
As for painting, I'd play some games as is before changing your armies look on impulse. World eaters may get some new ways to play in the next book after all.
And if you'll notice, Word Bearers have one of THE best Warlord traits and Relics. Strategem requires a lot of building around though, which is why I'm playing with how to tackle a summoning castle and make it Word Bearers and not suck.
This is mostly a consistency though when it comes to the main Heroes. I'd argue how lame Sautekh is as a Dynasty because you have the Stormlord to use. Goffs have Ghazzy and their trait is easily the worst. Abigail was already talked about.
Prophets of flesh have Urien
Cult of Strife have lelith
Ulthwe have Eldrad
For feths sake nearly every Tau special HQ is T'au sept lol Cadia and Catachan also have the best Specials and far and away doctrines
The list goes on too
Your definitely cherry picking for that theory to hold water. I see where your going, but again, your giving way too much credit to GW here. Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence or however it goes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: Running Black Legion without Abaddon is one of the worst suggestions I've heard for competitive play. Please don't listen to Red Corsair on that one.
He asked a specific question in a none competitive context. He even asked about painting for feths sake. You realize tactics still apply in none hyper competitive formats right? This is CSM we are talking about, there is only so much lemonade you can squeeze from a turd.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: I mean all the Legions are mediocre to okay, it's CSM dex. But you take the best stuff from your Legion and build to it's strengths or else you're even worse than THAT level. Black Legion with no Abaddon may as well be legion-less. With Abaddon it's actually pretty decent.
Some folks paint their models and care how they present on the table (not accusing you of not doing this BTW) So while Abbadon IS clearly the best perk to the black legion in large scale games, he fething sucks in 1000pt or lower games. He's just way to pricey. So for example, unless I play 1500 or more points I don't feel he's necessary.
The best two legion traits are clearly AL and IW. But neither are amazing enough I'd fault someone for playing any of the others. Your making it sound like context isn't a factor when it is. If we are only discussing try hard lists then this entire thread is in trouble lol. CSM is not near the top of the stack, not even close ATM.
Seeing as Cult of Strife is the worst Wych Cult and Ulthwe is middle of the pack at best...how does that help your case?
Cult of strife is not the worst wych obsession. Your talking out your bum now. It's arguably the strongest one. Same with Ulthwe. But then I could also point out you ignoring the other half of the examples a shared.
Advancing + Charging and reroll Charges or S4 + morale immunity > an extra attack the first round of combat
Ulthwe is middle of the road because vehicles can already get the same effect for a few points, making them already more effective just like how Iron Hands Ven Dreads are bad, and I can argue for the benefit of Iyanden for Guardian bombs at least.
Your clearly not a Dark Eldar or Eldar player lol. Feel free to post these opinions in the relevant threads if you want to learn more though. Short answer is your very misinformed though.
You didn't explain how I was wrong even though I explained how you were wrong. I've popped into the Dark Eldar thread a couple of times already and I have seen nothing implying what you said.
vaklor4 wrote: Im starting to think everything EXCEPT black legion will be like this. One or two little things.
Vigilus Ablaze: The Black Legion beta codex.
I think the funniest part is that nothing in the Iron Warriors preview (other than the legion trait which is unchanged from the original) is actually unique to the Iron Warriors. The Devastation Battery is a Chaos Space Marines detachment, it can be used by anyone other than TS and DG.
Essentially we learned nothing about what tools the Iron Warriors get in the new book with this preview. Presumably they're going to get something exclusive to them but you sure wouldn't know it from the preview page.
So maybee i have gone insane, but hear me out, i'd like to make a full PA company, basically I want exactly 100 Csm, with csm i include havocs.
How would you go about equipping your 100 csm, weaponry wise and especially what charachters would you field to support such an army?
Atm i am Stuck with an idea of three battalions lead by sorcerers Warpsmiths and some lords.
The trait i'd pick would be AL. Ofcourse Slaanesh marks galore.
saint_red wrote: You also need to put the Bloodmaster in a <Daemon> detachment if you want it to have the re roll charge Locus. Honestly I think that's a useless comparison to make. Furthermore, 2 Bloodmaster auras do not stack whereas 1 Bloodmaster + 1 GP does.
So it's useless to compare two units that are supposed to provide nearly identical roles to their respective armies, yet one costs more while doing a worse job of it?
Not Online!!! wrote: So maybee i have gone insane, but hear me out, i'd like to make a full PA company, basically I want exactly 100 Csm, with csm i include havocs.
How would you go about equipping your 100 csm, weaponry wise and especially what charachters would you field to support such an army?
Atm i am Stuck with an idea of three battalions lead by sorcerers Warpsmiths and some lords.
The trait i'd pick would be AL. Ofcourse Slaanesh marks galore.
Are you okay with this army being a cool looking setpiece that will never see the table? Because uh. This ain't gonna win any games.
vaklor4 wrote: Im starting to think everything EXCEPT black legion will be like this. One or two little things.
Vigilus Ablaze: The Black Legion beta codex.
I think the funniest part is that nothing in the Iron Warriors preview (other than the legion trait which is unchanged from the original) is actually unique to the Iron Warriors. The Devastation Battery is a Chaos Space Marines detachment, it can be used by anyone other than TS and DG.
Essentially we learned nothing about what tools the Iron Warriors get in the new book with this preview. Presumably they're going to get something exclusive to them but you sure wouldn't know it from the preview page.
That's because they aren't getting any new tools. GW had an opportunity to fix some of the issues their terrible rules writers put in the first edition of this codex, and instead they aren't fixing a single damn thing, just including the new units and some vagilus detachments.
Not Online!!! wrote: So maybee i have gone insane, but hear me out, i'd like to make a full PA company, basically I want exactly 100 Csm, with csm i include havocs.
How would you go about equipping your 100 csm, weaponry wise and especially what charachters would you field to support such an army?
Atm i am Stuck with an idea of three battalions lead by sorcerers Warpsmiths and some lords.
The trait i'd pick would be AL. Ofcourse Slaanesh marks galore.
Are you okay with this army being a cool looking setpiece that will never see the table? Because uh. This ain't gonna win any games.
It merely is a thought experiment, how would you run it most effectively then, remember technically you have 700 pts left.
Not Online!!! wrote: So maybee i have gone insane, but hear me out, i'd like to make a full PA company, basically I want exactly 100 Csm, with csm i include havocs.
How would you go about equipping your 100 csm, weaponry wise and especially what charachters would you field to support such an army?
Atm i am Stuck with an idea of three battalions lead by sorcerers Warpsmiths and some lords.
The trait i'd pick would be AL. Ofcourse Slaanesh marks galore.
Are you okay with this army being a cool looking setpiece that will never see the table? Because uh. This ain't gonna win any games.
It merely is a thought experiment, how would you run it most effectively then, remember technically you have 700 pts left.
I’m torn between ‘a hundred Havocs’ or ‘fifteen Heretacs and eighty-five Havocs’
Maaaaybe a Raptor plasma squad or two
Automatically Appended Next Post: THAT SAID, do wait and see what all the Legions get, the Word Bearers had a crusaders type detachment in 7ed that did something kind of interesting (but I never built enough stuff to try out before 8ed)
Yeah, who knows, we may end up with a specialist detachment that makes CSM absolute monsters you'll see at top tables. Extremely unlikely, but it's not like there isn't precedent for formations boosting up models that are crap without them.
Probably either black legion with abs and large units or alpha legion with small units. Either way I would take quite a few chosen with combi bolters.
Something like: (Brigade):
Abs
Sorc
Lord (because abs can't touch the whole army)
15 CSM (champ has combi bolter)
15 CSM (champ has combi bolter)
5 CSM (champ has combi bolter)
5 CSM (champ has combi bolter)
5 CSM (champ has combi bolter)
5 CSM (champ has combi bolter)
Chosen (combi bolters) x3
Raptors (plasma x2, combi plasma) x3
Havocs (Autocannon x4) x3
Two big targets for endless cacophony and vets + full rerolls + presence will do...something probably. Better because of bolter discipline. I would walk forward and try to kill every troop you can. With buffs and strategms you'll drop about 100 guardsman a turn, which isn't nothing, or about 70~ boys. Abadon and your lord which some relic will do a fair job of killing most scary things that would come your way in melee (other than orc hordes). Once you've killed all of the enemy troops, go for objectives; you have 55 obsec bodies to work with.
I am wondering if a heavy plasma chosen spam list with Abaddon in it would work. (Trying to make the black legion work here because my army has always been painted black legion). Have Abaddon advance up the centre of the field with two troops of CSM with plasma, along with one 40 man cultist squad, then follow behind this whole lot with plasma wielding chosen. They will move advance and shoot once first turn using the black legion trait. Second turn they should be in range to start double tapping. Have a squad of plasma terminators waiting to deep strike in with a Sorceror Lord with that new warlord trait. Have a triple plasma squad of bikes waiting to charge in ahead to use that speartip strategem. Something along these lines. Just abuse all the rerolls to hit and spam overcharged plasma shots.
Btw, the new iron warriors warlord trait makes IW oblits even more scary than they already are. Plus IW oblits can be mark of slanaash, so can use Cacophony and vets of course.
That's not a IW trait, it's generic. Still better on AL.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That 'preview' was literally:
1) Reprint 2-year old IW trait
2) Show new generic csm detachment that is underwhelming
3) Show new generic csm detachment's trait, which is also underwhelming
4) Reprint 2-year old rules for a Warpsmith
Honestly, I dont think it's an issue that they create universal rules and then frame it to be for x legion. I prefer there being as little legion-restricted rules as possible since it promotes more options when building lists. It being limited to legion trait, warlord trait and an occasional stratagem is fine by me.
Wow, that is...Trash. Rerolling hits is basically just rerolling 2s, since youll always have a mobile lord in tow with these guys, and the -1 LD for a command point is not at all worth the price of admission.
Now that's cool for the Night Lords player in our group, stacking another -1 on top of Night Lords, Nurgle banner and being a raptor is pretty nice.
It will make me sad to see my Plague Marines running
So looking at the practical usage of that first stratagem - you need to destroy 1 unit with the Raptors, but have them finish that kill positioned within 6" of another, non-fearless squad, that you have also put causalities on this turn with your other units, but haven't entirely wiped, and then for the cost of 2 CP, you get to give that specific unit -1 LD during their moral phase. And all this will only last you one turn.
Seems far too niche to be at all useful, and it's not the sort of niche stratagem where it happens like one in 50 games and you can be like "oh, got a stratagem for that", because you have to pay 1 CP in advance on the Detachment before you even know if it will come up. Hell, you have to pay that CP in the list building phase before you even know if you're facing something like Tyranids with full Fearless everywhere.
If it was just a bonus on top of another good stratagem then maybe, but the other one is extremely low impact too. How big do Raptor squads get, like 10 large? and as said, you're already re-rolling 1s?
Hard pass for me. CP is so valuable already in this army.
If this is the kind of love gw is going to give chaos then they can keep it...
Seriously though, while its nice nothing there would make me go "i want to start this army because of this." Vicious decent is ok, but its pretty limited on its use. Unless your going to use it on raptors to help with their shooting its pretty bad. Nothing there would help a warp talon squad charge after deep striking which is their problem. Even with full reroll from a khorne detachment its not the best odds of getting the charge off after deep strike, so they still are just expensive and not very good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If this is the kind of love gw is going to give chaos then they can keep it...
Seriously though, while its nice nothing there would make me go "i want to start this army because of this." Vicious decent is ok, but its pretty limited on its use. Unless your going to use it on raptors to help with their shooting its pretty bad. Nothing there would help a warp talon squad charge after deep striking which is their problem. Even with full reroll from a khorne detachment its not the best odds of getting the charge off after deep strike, so they still are just expensive and not very good.
vaklor4 wrote: Wow, that is...Trash. Rerolling hits is basically just rerolling 2s, since youll always have a mobile lord in tow with these guys, and the -1 LD for a command point is not at all worth the price of admission.
Well, it does remove the need for a Lord (or freeing your Lord up to go somewhere else), allowing for a very cheap overcharged plasma delivery system (75 points + 1CP for 6 shots). Alternatively, this can be pretty nasty on a blob of Warp Talons with a nearby Khorne Herald to give them a realistic chance to make it into CC.
Yeah it's really weird. Why make such beautiful models, trumpet Vigilus II, and then release the most underwhelming rules-previews in this edition's history? Am perplexed.
I doubt the WL traits and Relics will change btw, as the Legion Traits are staying exactly the same.
All this is doing to making me not want to bother picking up Vigilus 2, and is helping to fuel the salt in me today
As I’ve said in other threads and on reddit. This is completely and utterly pointless and useless, and will never see the light of day in semi-competitive play or competitive local metas. Let alone actual competitive play.
So far it looks like Chaos is possibly even getting worse in Vigilus thanks to the Cultist nerf, and that's so hilariously typical of GW concerning CSM that I can't help but just sigh. Right on the heels of Shadowspear removing Obliteraters from competitive play entirely. I don't even play this army and I'm so glad I didn't. GW seems adamant that you guys must be SM -1 at all times and they aren't at all discreet about it or at all good at making it somewhat close. You get cool models so that you look good losing to the loyalists, hoping for more is a pipedream. This is my number 1 complaint about current GW.
SHUPPET wrote: So looking at the practical usage of that first stratagem - you need to destroy 1 unit with the Raptors, but have them finish that kill positioned within 6" of another, non-fearless squad, that you have also put causalities on this turn with your other units, but haven't entirely wiped, and then for the cost of 2 CP, you get to give that specific unit -1 LD during their moral phase. And all this will only last you one turn. [...]
If it makes any difference, the stratagem effects units within 6" of *all* Host Raptorial units, so you could finish off an enemy unit with raptors/talons at one end of the board, and then have a squad of raptors/talons at the other end give -1 LD to a different unit. Not that it suddenly makes it a great stratagem, though.
What do you think of this ? Put 3x2 greater possessed in a terrax pattern assault drill. Add 5 possessed and a MoP. Pick sacrifice and cursed earth for the MoP. Deepstrike, disembark, cast cursed earth, and all greater possessed and possessed within 6" of the MoP have a 4+ inv. If one of them loses wounds cast sacrifice on a greater possessed for 1MW and heal D3 on the wounded model.
With Huron as your warlord that's 9 CP for that battalion. Could be the CSM version of loyal 32.... the unloyal 32
well, i mean, a Red corsair battalion now generates 8 cp, 2 would therefore generate 16cp +3 from battleforged. that would be 21, without even fielding huron.
3 Warpsmiths for 165 pts, a sorcerer for 90 pts
390 pts for csm.
630 pts for 21 CP.
NOW that is a decent CP generation to points rate.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also isn't it a tad ironic that the Renegades allready outperform their older more experienced brethern?
Wow, Red Corsair Battalion is absolutely full fat goodness. They keep the already pretty nice advance+charge, and get CPs out the wazoo. This is much more like it, I'm pretty relieved to see a rule that isn't afraid to give CSMs something different and decent.
Theoretically there may be a specialist detachment for Red Corsairs, which could potentially allow for Huron and Abaddon to both be Warlords. So in theory you could be putting up 24 CP. Or you do a Vanguard specialist detachment with Abaddon, make Huron your main Warlord, plus another Battalion and get 20 CP pretty easily. Hard to say what the actual force composition looks like and you'd be fielding Terminators, but the potential is definitely there.
With Huron as your warlord that's 9 CP for that battalion. Could be the CSM version of loyal 32.... the unloyal 32
well, i mean, a Red corsair battalion now generates 8 cp, 2 would therefore generate 16cp +3 from battleforged. that would be 21, without even fielding huron.
3 Warpsmiths for 165 pts, a sorcerer for 90 pts
390 pts for csm.
630 pts for 21 CP.
NOW that is a decent CP generation to points rate.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also isn't it a tad ironic that the Renegades allready outperform their older more experienced brethern?
You're confusing outperform with more organized. Which a recently turned Chapter would likely be.
This is why I was for separating the Legions from Renegades entirely and letting the Vanilla codex handle them, and let Legions actually feel like a real deadly fighting force of elites. Why else you think I shove my idea of Chosen as the base troops?
You're confusing outperform with more organized. Which a recently turned Chapter would likely be.
This is why I was for separating the Legions from Renegades entirely and letting the Vanilla codex handle them, and let Legions actually feel like a real deadly fighting force of elites. Why else you think I shove my idea of Chosen as the base troops?
Except Red Corsairs are a hodgepodge of traitors, and GW's gone out of its way to establish how quickly many of the renegades fall... Not that I wouldn't welcome some sort of hybrid representation of recent renegades (that don't switch bizarrely to chaos wargear when they turn), but the current fluff does actually mostly support renegade CSM being closer to CSM than Marines.
You're confusing outperform with more organized. Which a recently turned Chapter would likely be.
This is why I was for separating the Legions from Renegades entirely and letting the Vanilla codex handle them, and let Legions actually feel like a real deadly fighting force of elites. Why else you think I shove my idea of Chosen as the base troops?
Except Red Corsairs are a hodgepodge of traitors, and GW's gone out of its way to establish how quickly many of the renegades fall... Not that I wouldn't welcome some sort of hybrid representation of recent renegades (that don't switch bizarrely to chaos wargear when they turn), but the current fluff does actually mostly support renegade CSM being closer to CSM than Marines.
Whilest this is true, Huron undoubtitly is a immensily capable leader and he has his logistics nailed down.
But still i stand by my point.
But that's represented by his rules. I don't see why the warband trait does the same. Unless I'm mistaken, there's never been a claim that RC commanders are anything special or organized. I haven't read all their fiction, but the two pieces that did include them described how barbarous they were and how quickly they'd fallen.
You're confusing outperform with more organized. Which a recently turned Chapter would likely be.
This is why I was for separating the Legions from Renegades entirely and letting the Vanilla codex handle them, and let Legions actually feel like a real deadly fighting force of elites. Why else you think I shove my idea of Chosen as the base troops?
Except Red Corsairs are a hodgepodge of traitors, and GW's gone out of its way to establish how quickly many of the renegades fall... Not that I wouldn't welcome some sort of hybrid representation of recent renegades (that don't switch bizarrely to chaos wargear when they turn), but the current fluff does actually mostly support renegade CSM being closer to CSM than Marines.
Whilest this is true, Huron undoubtitly is a immensily capable leader and he has his logistics nailed down.
But still i stand by my point.
I see what you mean by outperform. We will see what happens. I'm personally hoping Huron gets an updated sheet with a Chapter Master aura because he deserves it, dammit. It won't happen though.
What might be a good idea too is Abigail with his morale bubble advancing with large squads of Red Corsairs. I haven't worked out army composition at all though.
spiralingcadaver wrote: But that's represented by his rules. I don't see why the warband trait does the same. Unless I'm mistaken, there's never been a claim that RC commanders are anything special or organized. I haven't read all their fiction, but the two pieces that did include them described how barbarous they were and how quickly they'd fallen.
Actually they are better then your average CSM commander, mostly due to the fact they actually have enough ships and logistical planning else Huron couldn't maintain his relative vast pirate empire.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm personally hoping Huron gets an updated sheet with a Chapter Master aura because he deserves it, dammit. It won't happen though.
Seriously, this, including the "dammit" bit! I've gotten over him having worse stats than his Badab days since he did get blown up, but I really don't get why he downgraded to the basic captain/lord buff. Deranged pirate half-robot or no, he's always been defined as a strong leader.
It's been argued that Huron is the most effective CSM commander outside Abigail himself. The way he held out in the Badab War speaks for itself I think.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm personally hoping Huron gets an updated sheet with a Chapter Master aura because he deserves it, dammit. It won't happen though.
Seriously, this, including the "dammit" bit! I've gotten over him having worse stats than his Badab days since he did get blown up, but I really don't get why he downgraded to the basic captain/lord buff. Deranged pirate half-robot or no, he's always been defined as a strong leader.
If anything the fether should get even better, or maybee because he got Hamadrya?
But considering he is not available atm, i'd say we have high chances to maybee get him.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's been argued that Huron is the most effective CSM commander outside Abigail himself. The way he held out in the Badab War speaks for itself I think.
That and he forced Abbigal to the negotiating table to get some blackstone fortresses for his loyality.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm personally hoping Huron gets an updated sheet with a Chapter Master aura because he deserves it, dammit. It won't happen though.
Seriously, this, including the "dammit" bit! I've gotten over him having worse stats than his Badab days since he did get blown up, but I really don't get why he downgraded to the basic captain/lord buff. Deranged pirate half-robot or no, he's always been defined as a strong leader.
If anything the fether should get even better, or maybee because he got Hamadrya?
spiralingcadaver wrote: But that's represented by his rules. I don't see why the warband trait does the same. Unless I'm mistaken, there's never been a claim that RC commanders are anything special or organized. I haven't read all their fiction, but the two pieces that did include them described how barbarous they were and how quickly they'd fallen.
Actually they are better then your average CSM commander, mostly due to the fact they actually have enough ships and logistical planning else Huron couldn't maintain his relative vast pirate empire.
He's possibly the only marine other than Abby that has equal respect from other war bands and legions, enough to strike equal deals with the black legion with forces numbering heresy legion size. So being numerous and organised is a fair stab at their shtick.
Regardless of his status though his model is puny at best, even his 25mm drowns him a little.
I think the piratical 17 is probably going to be a pretty legit semi-competitive or even competitive choice. CSM being worth 75% more command points than cultists/guard is actually a really solid way to make them desirable as troops. One I hadn't really thought about to be honest.
I think Huron was probably in that close-to-usable state before this and I see no reason not to include him. 2 psychic powers, a solid melee profile, heavy flamer and a lord aura, along with a bonus CP if you make him a warlord (...which isn't going to always be what you want to do, but there will be times where you want to). That's great for 7 points over a vanilla sorc and competitive lists do see the occasional vanila sorc pop up. 3x5 vanilla CSM and you're up to 300 points.
I think what you do from there is a bit more of a question. I see several options; if you want to go cheap as possible, a warpsmith works; between him and luscious they would make a decent melee punch (not great, but not bad); further, if you give him that relic combimelta he's looking something like 10~ wounds on T7/3+ vehicles within 12 inches. Sure that won't come up all the time, but it will definitely come up. For 75 points, that's not bad. Otherwise, the tried and true slaanesh elixir prince wouldn't mind the ability to advance + charge.
Further, adv + charge was already one of our better traits for certain things; bikes or melee brutes, neither of which are amazing but neither of which are total trash after beta bolters/ points drops.
The other question is what do you do with the CSMs. I think giving them two combi-bolters is pretty sane; combi bolters with the beta bolters rule I feel are really worth it. It might even be worth shelling out for a heavy weapon per squad; 4 ablative wounds might make it worth it.
Let's make a kind/ideal comparison for their utility (3 x 5 squads with two combi); 24 inches with reroll ones, something that is pretty universally easy for chaos to get. So comparing their firepower at 24 inches to 60 guardsman, they fire 42 bs 3+ st 4 shots. Roughly 15 dead guardsman; 60 guardsman firing at 24 inches is 10 dead. Yes that is an ideal situation for the marines and a bad situation for the guard, but it does show that they aren't exactly worthless. If you assume FRSRF for 4 of the six groups (from two double-order commanders) then it matches pretty close. Sure, within 12 inches the math changes, but much more of the game is played at 24 inches than at 12.
Two loyal 32 bats is worth 10 cp and costs 372. One Piratical 17 bat costs 375 and generates 8/9. The firepower against infantry is in the same realm with an edge to the loyal 32. The durability favors the loyal 32 x 2. The CP slightly favors them. The melee and anti-vehicle capacity certainly favors the Piratical 17, and they get two psychic powers. They also only eat up one detachment slot. I think I am ready to say they are comparable and if the loyal 32 has an edge, it's not a big one. Keeping in mind that the loyal 32 is quite literally meta-defining, I think this is actually a pretty darn good win for chaos.
So all the joking about Red Corsairs being master tacticians aside, I think I really have to strike an optimistic note here. GW has made a legit improvement to competitive and semi-competitive Heratic Astares/chaos and they have done so in a way which makes you actively want to take marine bodies in most of your arrmies. It could always be better, of course, but I call that a legit win. Good job GE, sincerely.
Also, now that the Fallen have their own detachment that means I can tag Cypher as a Warlord, which means I should be able to put an Imperial Assassin on the field with reinforcement points.
Red corsairs battalion with Two sorcs with 3 5 man Marine squads with rotor cannons is about 400pts and provides 8cp, backfield support, and 4 psychic powers. Not a bad little set up that could be plugged into most any chaos list from demons, to DG or renegade Knights.
buddha wrote: Red corsairs battalion with Two sorcs with 3 5 man Marine squads with rotor cannons is about 400pts and provides 8cp, backfield support, and 4 psychic powers. Not a bad little set up that could be plugged into most any chaos list from demons, to DG or renegade Knights.
Why not one sorc and Huron? He casts one and deny one power plus his re-rolls plus 1 CP plus his melee capabilities plus his Heavy Flamer. Though i dont know how hamadryas profile works...
What is the opinion on Crimson Slaughter trait? I really wanna play it, and will probably play it regardless of outside opinion, but do other people think it could work pretty well in a World Eaters-esque rushdown list? Berzerkers (and potentially cultists) getting auto-morale is pretty nice, and CP farming is handy as heck, all be it no where NEAR red corsairs good.
avedominusnox wrote: Why not one sorc and Huron? He casts one and deny one power plus his re-rolls plus 1 CP plus his melee capabilities plus his Heavy Flamer. Though i dont know how hamadryas profile works...
From a plug and play standpoint I think he has a point. However, if Red Corsairs get a specialist detachment or you want to make Huron your main Warlord I would tend to agree there's not much point in going with a Sorcerer over Huron.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vaklor4 wrote: What is the opinion on Crimson Slaughter trait? I really wanna play it, and will probably play it regardless of outside opinion, but do other people think it could work pretty well in a World Eaters-esque rushdown list? Berzerkers (and potentially cultists) getting auto-morale is pretty nice, and CP farming is handy as heck, all be it no where NEAR red corsairs good.
I think it's not bad, I also think I'd play a lot of games where it triggered rarely or not at all, it would annoy me, I'd imagine flipping the table, then shelve them after the game for several months.
avedominusnox wrote: Why not one sorc and Huron? He casts one and deny one power plus his re-rolls plus 1 CP plus his melee capabilities plus his Heavy Flamer. Though i dont know how hamadryas profile works...
From a plug and play standpoint I think he has a point. However, if Red Corsairs get a specialist detachment or you want to make Huron your main Warlord I would tend to agree there's not much point in going with a Sorcerer over Huron.
Shame the +3 command points is a Red Corsair only buff, It would have been incredible as a special rule that chaos space marines and tactical marines had to make them worth taking over cheap horde infantry. (In any space marine/chaos space marine force)
vaklor4 wrote: What is the opinion on Crimson Slaughter trait? I really wanna play it, and will probably play it regardless of outside opinion, but do other people think it could work pretty well in a World Eaters-esque rushdown list? Berzerkers (and potentially cultists) getting auto-morale is pretty nice, and CP farming is handy as heck, all be it no where NEAR red corsairs good.
If the units that are killing things are units that get legion traits then it's pretty good; essentially if you can make a good list that doesn't run vehicles and doesn't make any serious investment into cultists then it's about as good as any of the relic/warlord trait stratagem regens. I think it'd depend on what other benefits Crimson Slaughter gets. People are really excited about the Red Corsairs trait, and for good reason, but the trait isn't the only thing you get; people are sleeping on the Scourged getting access to Auspex Scan in a meta where Genestealer Cults are on the rise.
vaklor4 wrote: What is the opinion on Crimson Slaughter trait? I really wanna play it, and will probably play it regardless of outside opinion, but do other people think it could work pretty well in a World Eaters-esque rushdown list? Berzerkers (and potentially cultists) getting auto-morale is pretty nice, and CP farming is handy as heck, all be it no where NEAR red corsairs good.
The morale immunity means they're doing what you would want Word Bearers outside summoning to do, but way better.
vaklor4 wrote: What is the opinion on Crimson Slaughter trait? I really wanna play it, and will probably play it regardless of outside opinion, but do other people think it could work pretty well in a World Eaters-esque rushdown list? Berzerkers (and potentially cultists) getting auto-morale is pretty nice, and CP farming is handy as heck, all be it no where NEAR red corsairs good.
The morale immunity means they're doing what you would want Word Bearers outside summoning to do, but way better.
It's morale only after they kill a unit though, meaning 9 times out of 10, its in your own turn. So its only SUPER useful for melee units IMO.
vaklor4 wrote: What is the opinion on Crimson Slaughter trait? I really wanna play it, and will probably play it regardless of outside opinion, but do other people think it could work pretty well in a World Eaters-esque rushdown list? Berzerkers (and potentially cultists) getting auto-morale is pretty nice, and CP farming is handy as heck, all be it no where NEAR red corsairs good.
The morale immunity means they're doing what you would want Word Bearers outside summoning to do, but way better.
It's morale only after they kill a unit though, meaning 9 times out of 10, its in your own turn. So its only SUPER useful for melee units IMO.
vaklor4 wrote: What is the opinion on Crimson Slaughter trait? I really wanna play it, and will probably play it regardless of outside opinion, but do other people think it could work pretty well in a World Eaters-esque rushdown list? Berzerkers (and potentially cultists) getting auto-morale is pretty nice, and CP farming is handy as heck, all be it no where NEAR red corsairs good.
The morale immunity means they're doing what you would want Word Bearers outside summoning to do, but way better.
It's morale only after they kill a unit though, meaning 9 times out of 10, its in your own turn. So its only SUPER useful for melee units IMO.
Wow I completely misread it.
I'm no longer as enthusiastic about it.
To be fair, this is just a legion trait. The 5+ command points are where the beef of the trait is, the morale passing is just a bit of extra spice to add to your chosen, berzerekrs and CSM...And lord willing, cultists, if rumors are to be false.
SHUPPET wrote: Who is ready for our new Corsair overlords?
Honestly I don't even think we will need the Chaos Marine CP. We now already get a bonus one from the basic Battalion, but think about the specialist detachments! Do I just want Huron and advancing Dreads/Helbrutes? Bam, extra reward still.
At some point you can rake in all the CP you want, but how many places is it going to be spent? At least for sure the relic Combi-Melta is gold, so I'm just awaiting the Warlord Trait and Strategem.
To be fair, Chaos armies can spam CP HARD. Demonforged every turn, deepstriking demons, surge demon saves to +1, CP rerolls, it adds up fast if you be liberal with it.
If you have key Slanaash unit that you want to use cacophony on every turn, and other legion detachments you want to use veterans of the long war on every turn... yeah, those CP can be easily used up super quickly. And that's not even counting anything interesting from the new viligus Ablaze that we might want to use too. (There has to be some strategems in there we would want to use). Melee CSM get to use more fury of Khorne ... amazing.
So, yup, that additional CP from the renegade 17 is amazing and just what CSM needed. In almost every game I played I was out of CP by turn 2. If I could be using CPs as I wanted up to turn 4 or 5...
SHUPPET wrote: Who is ready for our new Corsair overlords?
I feel like I automatically have to say yes here
Kidding aside, I feel this really does make CSM more appealing. Like I posted in the new and rumors section 5 guys with a rotor canon and combi bolter on sarge is very solid if the rumors on the rotor canon prove true. 87pts for a unit that pumps 18 shots out at the 24" mark is solid, especially when you can get that unit in cover. Of course the relic combi melta doesn't hurt either, making a support lord an MSU squad killer himself.
For reference the rumored rotor canon profile was 24" heavy 8 S5 ap -1
Corsair batteries would be nice, but they will probably be far more shining in actual corsair lists with CSM pumping CP and other assault units rush forward to make use of the second part of the trait.
Feels a tiny bit off, Corsairs being the ones bringing the Heretacs up to scratch. Always seen them as the bike raider lot. Though +1CP for a minimal Outriders means they’re still pretty good for it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The 17 Corsairs completely throws off any aspiration of building a viable Bridage, of course:
RC Battalion + Battalion + Vanguard + Outriders + Spearhead = 22CP
RC Brigade = 14CP
That’s for more HQ bringing in 2CP each
In smaller games, it’s also notable that RC Patrols with five Heretacs, an HQ, and some Oblits or whatever yield 1CP. That’s VOTLW, EC, and a re-roll on Prescience.
Wow there is some exciting stuff in the Renegades preview! Both Legion traits shown so far are really cool, with the Crimson Slaughter one being particularly flavourful if not quite as powerful. The WTs and stratagems are also pretty awesome and give us access to stuff we didn't have access to before.
The Brazen Beasts WT is a scary option on a MoKDP w Talisman of Burning Blood. I like the idea of a jump lord with a power fist as well. Definitely not as strong but another fun option to bring along.
In light of our improved bolters, I’m looking again at MSU Fallen. Six of them can take five combi-bolters and a HB. Put them on a rooftop and stay put, and they get rerolls without having to assign a CL.
Sorcerer, I dunno about. Unless they’re gaining an actual Legion trait, he seems redundant? Having Rhinos opens up more mobility, but without access to gun plus sword, they’re not the close range unit Chosen are?
Agent of Discord is... well, it’s very dependent on the opponent, and requires a hell of a lot of buy-in to have a useful range? Without a Trace... was anyone using the similar Night Lords strat?
If they could bring us a PlasCan - like their illustrations depicted in their Cadia relaunch - they’d have a nice niche.
In smaller games, it’s also notable that RC Patrols with five Heretacs, an HQ, and some Oblits or whatever yield 1CP. That’s VOTLW, EC, and a re-roll on Prescience.
In smaller games, it’s also notable that RC Patrols with five Heretacs, an HQ, and some Oblits or whatever yield 1CP. That’s VOTLW, EC, and a re-roll on Prescience.
Red Corsairs can't use VOTLW
You keep saying this. I don't have my book with me at work , but doesn't it just say "heretic astartes infantery or bikes unit"?
I don't keep saying it, its the first time i said it .
the exact wording is:
'Use this Stratagem when a HERETIC ASTARTES
INFANTRY or BIKER unit is selected to attack in a
Shooting or Fight phase (excluding units from Renegade
Chapters). You can add 1 to all wound rolls made for the
unit until the end of the phase.'
you can attempt ro argue that red corsairs are not a 'renegade chapter' as laid out in the legion traits section but its fair to say
1. thats sketychy RAW 2. the actual vigilus book will likely bring them inline with renegade chapters'
3. if it does not then GW will FAQ it within a month
Latro_ wrote: I don't keep saying it, its the first time i said it .
the exact wording is:
'Use this Stratagem when a HERETIC ASTARTES
INFANTRY or BIKER unit is selected to attack in a
Shooting or Fight phase (excluding units from Renegade
Chapters). You can add 1 to all wound rolls made for the
unit until the end of the phase.'
you can attempt ro argue that red corsairs are not a 'renegade chapter' as laid out in the legion traits section but its fair to say
1. thats sketychy RAW 2. the actual vigilus book will likely bring them inline with renegade chapters'
3. if it does not then GW will FAQ it within a month
Oh, my bad . someone kept mentioning it, I thought that that was you.
You are completely right then! Which is good because it would make no sense fluff-wise.
So the DA is getting another nerf-in-disguise. Seems to be the theme of this dex.
Really not all that happy about this as a World Eaters player. Loyalist chaplains get that combat reroll for free without a roll and now we only have 66% chance to have our rerolls.
Also expecting the DA to get a higher price tag, now that he has some new and advanced options.
So I guess now we can give a unit of possessed another +1 strength and attack from a strategem. So now they get 5 base, +1 herald, +1 strategeum, +1 g. possessed.
So like, now they are all strength 8 O.o;; I feel like all of this kind of misses the point in some ways; their issues are mobility and durability, neither of which are getting fixed.
So with all buffs they are what....reroll 1s to hit and wound, 2-4 attacks per round with a reroll (so let's say average 3.5), strength 8, ap -2, 1 damage, inflict a mortal wound on wounds of 6s. They'll also probably get either the slaanesh or the nurgle locus, so another bonus wound on 6s or advance/charge.
I dunno, I'm starting to think that maybe they are almost worth it? Pair it with a tree so they get 1+ saves round one? I dunno, probably still wishful thinking, but they are really pumping up those stats >.>
For all we know he may have a reroll all shooting aura prayer, and become instantly more useful than he was before, or a reroll all wounds prayer so you can pair him up with Abbadon to replicate the Guiliman aura.
We have only seen 2 of his 6 powers so far, i'd wait and see what else he has to offer.
I mean, the bonus attack prayer is hilarious. Give him the black mace and he hits harder than a demon prince for 76 points. 7 ws 2+ Str 7 ap -4 damage 2 attacks.
I dunno if it's good, per say, but it is hilarious.
If he has even a gakky move or shoot oriented prayer, like +3" or reroll wounds of 1 while shooting, I'd say he'd be pretty decent for the flexibility.
VyRa wrote: So the DA is getting another nerf-in-disguise. Seems to be the theme of this dex. Really not all that happy about this as a World Eaters player. Loyalist chaplains get that combat reroll for free without a roll and now we only have 66% chance to have our rerolls. Also expecting the DA to get a higher price tag, now that he has some "new and advanced" options.
I don’t think there’s any disguise about it
Dark Apostles, pre-Vigilus: 6” reroll CCQ hit Dice aura in your phase and enemy phase
Dark Apostles, post-Vigilus: roll a 3+ (adding one if a specific squishy human unit is nearby and still alive) to generate a 6” reroll for the rest of the battle round
In half of the games you play, you’ll not be able to have the aura active half the turns, which massively impacts on ‘stabby tarpit’ plays
The other undivided prayer looks good on a Cursed Crozius, however on a unit with a 6” move that’s pretty marginal
Hopefully those Disciples won’t just be a pair of freely targetable T3 6+ wounds
New Possessed strat could be pretty tasty, with GP & Herald that’s base S8
If you didn't see any use for the DA before, that's fine. I did. Now, with him taking up three slots in a transport and the added benefit of not bringing his rerolls to a fight, a chaos lord might be the better option. So, i'm disappointed. And i might also be a tad emotional right now, so please don't take me too serious. Let's wait and see what other prayers we'll get.
Arachnofiend wrote: Word on the street is that the Dark Apostle isn't losing his old rule, and all Dark Zealotry does is ramp it up to a Cawl aura. So nothing but a buff.
Dark Zealotry is literally the exact same as their previous always-on aura, copied & pasted.
Arachnofiend wrote: Word on the street is that the Dark Apostle isn't losing his old rule, and all Dark Zealotry does is ramp it up to a Cawl aura. So nothing but a buff.
Dark Zealotry is literally the exact same as their previous always-on aura, copied & pasted.
No it isn't.
Original Dark Apostle wrote:Dark Zealotry: You can re-roll failed hit rolls in the Fight phase
New Dark Apostle wrote:Dark Zealotry: You can re-roll hit rolls in the Fight phase
A pretty key operative word is missing in the new ability. The new one is worded like Cawl's aura, and lets you reroll any hit roll you choose (meaning, you can reroll hits that missed because of a penalty to hit and such).
Arachnofiend wrote: Word on the street is that the Dark Apostle isn't losing his old rule, and all Dark Zealotry does is ramp it up to a Cawl aura. So nothing but a buff.
Dark Zealotry is literally the exact same as their previous always-on aura, copied & pasted.
No it isn't.
Original Dark Apostle wrote:Dark Zealotry: You can re-roll failed hit rolls in the Fight phase
New Dark Apostle wrote:Dark Zealotry: You can re-roll hit rolls in the Fight phase
A pretty key operative word is missing in the new ability. The new one is worded like Cawl's aura, and lets you reroll any hit roll you choose (meaning, you can reroll hits that missed because of a penalty to hit and such).
Which are a lot less common than shooting penalties...
It's a minor buff, but not worth being inactive 1/3rd the time.
Someone on the other thread said that the Facebook page indicated the Dark Apostle still gets the old Dark Zealotry and the new one just upgrades it, but now that I'm scanning through their posts myself I can't find it.
I'm not too concerned about it, really. As I said before the old Dark Apostle was pretty bad, if the new one gets good alternative options (like, say, a movement speed boost) then I'm a lot more interested in fielding him.
Oh, wait, this new ability is used at the start of battle rounds. So, it does apply for your turn and theirs.
BUT to be reliable, you need to keep those squishy-looking clerks within 2”, meaning if you get the DA into a fight to use the new prayer then his vassals will have to get within slapping distance of whoever he’d rucking with.
Unless they’re characters, I can’t see how they’re anything other than a high priority, low hanging fruit, ripe with delicious kill points
Even if they are characters, they’re human and arriving after everyone paints their new sniper units
I'm assuming/hoping that the Disciples work like Celestine's girls and are a part of the DA's unit. They aren't targetable separately, can eat his wounds if you want them to.
I love how few people are actually capable of reading lol
The only factions that have had their faction-specific rules previewed are Black Legion and the Renegade Chapters. The Iron Warriors stuff was Chaos Space Marines. The Night Lords stuff was Chaos Space Marines. The Word Bearers stuff was Chaos Space Marines. Each of those articles previewed detachments that any CSM army can use but happen to be particularly flavorful for the faction in question.
I personally disagree with WHC's decision to run the previews like this, but the fact is that we have no idea what the IW, NL, and WB benefits look like.
Hopefully the prayer does just upgrade his static aura, since chanting occurring at the start of the battle round means the Khorne Party Bus (TM) definitely won't get rerolls to hit the turn they jump out of the rhino.
Not Online!!! wrote: I like how the fethed over WB somehow even more by ruining ther signature unit
So BL is okay:
IW, NL,WB are meh
Renegades: Ok there is a buff there
left are AL, EC, WE.
so we got now 3 bad 1 meh and 1 good out of 8.
I was pretty happy with the IW one to be honest. I'd say, IW/Renegades was good, BL was ok, and NL/WB are meh, but YMMV.
I'm more happy with the updates and changes to existing units. I always disliked that the Dark Apostle was the 'cheaper Chaos Lord', I like that he's got a unique role in the army now.
Arachnofiend wrote: I love how few people are actually capable of reading lol
The only factions that have had their faction-specific rules previewed are Black Legion and the Renegade Chapters. The Iron Warriors stuff was Chaos Space Marines. The Night Lords stuff was Chaos Space Marines. The Word Bearers stuff was Chaos Space Marines. Each of those articles previewed detachments that any CSM army can use but happen to be particularly flavorful for the faction in question.
I personally disagree with WHC's decision to run the previews like this, but the fact is that we have no idea what the IW, NL, and WB benefits look like.
Do you really think the legions will get individual benefits? If they do, and GW decided to not preview them with the legion articles, that is full of stupid. Odds are the legions won't be getting anything new specific to them.
drakerocket wrote: So I guess now we can give a unit of possessed another +1 strength and attack from a strategem. So now they get 5 base, +1 herald, +1 strategeum, +1 g. possessed.
So like, now they are all strength 8 O.o;; I feel like all of this kind of misses the point in some ways; their issues are mobility and durability, neither of which are getting fixed.
So with all buffs they are what....reroll 1s to hit and wound, 2-4 attacks per round with a reroll (so let's say average 3.5), strength 8, ap -2, 1 damage, inflict a mortal wound on wounds of 6s. They'll also probably get either the slaanesh or the nurgle locus, so another bonus wound on 6s or advance/charge.
I dunno, I'm starting to think that maybe they are almost worth it? Pair it with a tree so they get 1+ saves round one? I dunno, probably still wishful thinking, but they are really pumping up those stats >.>
For a little simpler method: Put 9 possessed with mark + icon of Khorne and a MoP in a Rhino, rush up the field, pop smoke. T2 disembark, buff up Possessed with MoP power, charge, pop strategy at the start of the fight phase and enjoy. Only problem is getting the possessed within 6" for the charge because otherwise they lose the benefit of some powers and you can't pop the strategy.
This isn't as powerful as buffing them up with literally everything that's available but it'll paint a significantly smaller target in your Rhino and leaves you with enough points to put other stuff in your list.
Arachnofiend wrote: I love how few people are actually capable of reading lol
The only factions that have had their faction-specific rules previewed are Black Legion and the Renegade Chapters. The Iron Warriors stuff was Chaos Space Marines. The Night Lords stuff was Chaos Space Marines. The Word Bearers stuff was Chaos Space Marines. Each of those articles previewed detachments that any CSM army can use but happen to be particularly flavorful for the faction in question.
I personally disagree with WHC's decision to run the previews like this, but the fact is that we have no idea what the IW, NL, and WB benefits look like.
Do you really think the legions will get individual benefits? If they do, and GW decided to not preview them with the legion articles, that is full of stupid. Odds are the legions won't be getting anything new specific to them.
Considering the fact that almost all of the main loyalist chapters got their own specialist detachments in the first Vigilus book, yeah, that's what I'm assuming. Do you really think that only Black Legion and the Fallen will get their own specialist detachments?
Arachnofiend wrote: I love how few people are actually capable of reading lol
The only factions that have had their faction-specific rules previewed are Black Legion and the Renegade Chapters. The Iron Warriors stuff was Chaos Space Marines. The Night Lords stuff was Chaos Space Marines. The Word Bearers stuff was Chaos Space Marines. Each of those articles previewed detachments that any CSM army can use but happen to be particularly flavorful for the faction in question.
I personally disagree with WHC's decision to run the previews like this, but the fact is that we have no idea what the IW, NL, and WB benefits look like.
Do you really think the legions will get individual benefits? If they do, and GW decided to not preview them with the legion articles, that is full of stupid. Odds are the legions won't be getting anything new specific to them.
Considering the fact that almost all of the main loyalist chapters got their own specialist detachments in the first Vigilus book, yeah, that's what I'm assuming. Do you really think that only Black Legion and the Fallen will get their own specialist detachments?
Well, sort of. In the BL focus article they said that BL got bespoke rules because they were "the stars of the show in Vigilus Ablaze". I'm guessing the Fallen get theirs just to fix the whole "we forgot to bring our rides" problem they had with the codex. I hope you are right, but I somehow doubt it based on what we have seen already with the Legion focus articles.
So Prayers have effects listed in their table, yeah
If that table’s not on the Dark Apostle datasheet, then I believe it won’t be affected by Voice of Lorgar without a reversal of existing FAQ?
Not all of the Prayer effects are even auras, so yeah, this is probably how it's supposed to work. Obviously it's undesirable for the Word Bearers warlord trait to not function with the Dark Apostle's key feature so this is probably something worth emailing the team about to try and make sure it gets into the post-release FAQ.
I do wish every Legion got their own specific Specialist Detachment like Black Legion got, but then again I really do wonder why would they not show these on spoilers?
It's most likely that other legions are just getting these generic Specialist Detachments just like they previewed, while the main baddies of Black Legion get all the good stuff. However doing legion specific previews because of mere generic Specialist Detachments, like Raptorial Host for NL, is a bit annoying especially when this Raptorial Host is pretty mediocre. Morale is still so conditional and situational instead of universal and significant amount of units on table are immune to morale to begin with. Vicious Descent stratagem on the other hand has been pretty much neutered by the fact that it's tied to Jump Pack units (both Raptors and Warp Talons are mediocre at best). They should have just made Viscious Descent to allow deep striking outside 6" or something to make charging more certain. Or is someone here going to commit 2-3 CPs to make sure Deep Striking Warp Talons get 55% chance (or how high re-rolled 2D6 to get 9 is) to make it to melee after entering battlefield. This just isn't a good deal.
EDIT: And I might add Warp Talons are not even that good in melee, throw them at anything with Toughness 5 or higher and good save and watch how they maybe chip off 1-2 wounds of the model/unit while Emperor laughs on his beard.
Arachnofiend wrote: I love how few people are actually capable of reading lol
The only factions that have had their faction-specific rules previewed are Black Legion and the Renegade Chapters. The Iron Warriors stuff was Chaos Space Marines. The Night Lords stuff was Chaos Space Marines. The Word Bearers stuff was Chaos Space Marines. Each of those articles previewed detachments that any CSM army can use but happen to be particularly flavorful for the faction in question.
I personally disagree with WHC's decision to run the previews like this, but the fact is that we have no idea what the IW, NL, and WB benefits look like.
Do you really think the legions will get individual benefits? If they do, and GW decided to not preview them with the legion articles, that is full of stupid. Odds are the legions won't be getting anything new specific to them.
Considering the fact that almost all of the main loyalist chapters got their own specialist detachments in the first Vigilus book, yeah, that's what I'm assuming. Do you really think that only Black Legion and the Fallen will get their own specialist detachments?
You are going to be very disappointed, because it's pretty obvious that the various Traitor Legions are not getting their own detachments. GW has said as much on FB.
While Word Bearers have indisputably the worst trait in the game it's almost worse how fitting but bad all the Night Lord's rules are.
A big part of the horde vs elite power divide is how awful the morale system is and how easily horde armies ignore/mitigate it and how much more the losses hurt elite armies.
They would have a valuable place in a game where morale was any kind of threat to hordes.
Marshal Loss wrote: You are going to be very disappointed, because it's pretty obvious that the various Traitor Legions are not getting their own detachments. GW has said as much on FB.
Funny, I was looking at it the opposite way, Loyalists got hosed because their specialist detachments are Chapter locked, Heretics, outside of the meh BL detachment can be applied to any Legion, which is kind of amazing.
This is true. Everyone being able to use them means we only need 1-3 that are worth a damn to make out ok on this. GW is usually good for 1-3 obviously better options.
That's why I am wondering why on earth anyone would complain about stuff being generic. Imagine Night Lords ONLY getting the one previewed with them, they'd be just totally trash. Now, we just have a trash detachment, which doesn't matter as long as you aren't too invested in Raptors or Warp Talons..
.And if you were, well, you're already a masochist enough, maybe this detachment is just what you need to add to your army.
Posssessed in that new formation along with a greater possessed and a daemon herald can get +3 str. Their strength becomes str 8 ... Let that sink in for a moment. And we don't even know if there might be some prayer that lets them hit harder too.
Those things are going to be punching up knights with the proper buffs and strategems ... lol
Eldarain wrote: Delivery and resilience are their biggest issues though.
Take Alpha legion. scout move them 9 inch up with forward operatives. Their basic move is 7 inches. So, now they are 16 inches up the board on the first turn (not even counting warptime). You have cursed earth from master of possession giving them 4++ They are stock 2 wounds each. You can cast delightful agonies and other possible psychics on them. Bottom line, these things can be gotten round. Its how much you want to invest into getting around them.
Eldarain wrote: Delivery and resilience are their biggest issues though.
Take Alpha legion. scout move them 9 inch up with forward operatives. Their basic move is 7 inches. So, now they are 16 inches up the board on the first turn (not even counting warptime). You have cursed earth from master of possession giving them 4++ They are stock 2 wounds each. You can cast delightful agonies and other possible psychics on them. Bottom line, these things can be gotten round. Its how much you want to invest into getting around them.
Take a Gnarlmaw or Daemons of Slaanesh detachment. Both enable charging after advancing and Warptime advancing.
Gnarlmaw could make itself useful by hanging out with some Nurgle Oblits and giving them a 2+ save against anything with less AP than a Lascannon. Also can afford the Possessed cover on the first turn.
Back to the Possessed - there’s a third limiting factor on their efficacy: impact. S8 AP-2 is all well and good, but D1? That’s not going to bench a Knight. Double virulence Nurgle makes 5’s to Wound inflict 2D, 6’s inflict 3. VOTLW pips that to fours and fives. Locus of Grace and Crimson Crown can give them extra hits. Fiends can make them into a stabby tarpit.
I do worry that it's throwing good points after bad but it is awesome we have such a deep toolchest to try things.
As far as Incursion/Pact. I would say yes you can after moving and pact would be legal but I don't think you get the 4D6 Immune to doubles etc on the Pact summon.
Eldarain wrote: Delivery and resilience are their biggest issues though.
Take Alpha legion. scout move them 9 inch up with forward operatives. Their basic move is 7 inches. So, now they are 16 inches up the board on the first turn (not even counting warptime). You have cursed earth from master of possession giving them 4++ They are stock 2 wounds each. You can cast delightful agonies and other possible psychics on them. Bottom line, these things can be gotten round. Its how much you want to invest into getting around them.
Red Corsairs would be a legit option as you get even a bonus CP for the detachment being pure Corsairs.
It's important to remember how awesome Delightful Agonies is in general but also on a 2W model like Possessed. Firstly, the formula for FnP-like abilities is 1/(1-FnP%), not 1+FnP% so DA actually reduces damage taken by 50%. But on a 2W model it also makes you much more resilient to 2D weapons, because there's a 55% chance that each model requires more than 1 shot to kill it, so your opponent "wastes" 2 2D shots (theoretically 4W) to kill a 2W model.
Now obviously this relies on a psychic power going off which is problematic if you don't get first turn + it can be denied. Given you want to be in melee range you will pretty much always be in deny range after T1.
However, I think this detachment may be what we need to run Possessed effectively. The tricky bit will be figuring out which HQs/supporting characters to bring along but we have options. I think it's important to realise though that Possessed are never going to be destroying Knights unless we get a way to buff the damage of their attacks. They should be used as a hard-to-kill light/heavy infantry killing machine. They're probably never going to be as devastating as Berzerkers or Bloodletters but they'll be harder to remove.
Hmm, while I want possessed to work, they're going to require a big commitment, and there's a lot of contingency on other units and casts there too.
Gotta say, if we're delivering the unit by transport, I'd much prefer zerkers. Less resource intensive, 6 (or 8 for WE) S10 attacks in each squad, good chaff clearing, and 100pts can get you the best 5-man team load out available. They also do pretty well against knights, no S buffs needed. Crucially, you get that power fist option in each squad, whilst possessed are stuck on D1.
If we're talking about hoofing across the board then yeah, buffed possessed are preferable.
I think the main benefit (if there is one) of Possessed is that they're not necessarily <Khorne>. Zerkers are probably going to be more efficient, but there are factions that can't take Khorne units. Right now the factions that's true for don't give enough to justify giving up the benefits of being Undivided, but we're about to get 3 god-specific chapters so that could very well change.
- Can we use Incursion (Malefic spell 1) to Summon after moving?
Yes.
Incursion
If manifested, the psyker can immediately summon attempt to summon a unit of DAEMONS to the battlefield using the Daemonic Ritual ability as if it were the Movement phase. When doing so, roll up to 4 dice instead of up to 3. The psyker will not suffer any mortal wounds as a result of doubles or triples being rolled for this Daemonic Ritual.
- Can we use Daemonic Pact (CD Strat) to Summon twice with Incursion?
Yes. Its used after a character has performed a daemonic ritual to summon a unit.
Hmmm... I never knew how scary a Dark Apostle can be... But with some of those new stuff we are getting...
Make a Dark Apostle world eaters and mark of Khorne. Then gives it black mace. Then make it part of Demonkin Ritualist detachment. Then, when you suddenly feel the need to do so, activate the following on your dark apostle:
1. Cast prayer Omen of Potency, to give +3A and -4 AP.
2. Use strategem vessls of the neverborn to give +1 A, +1 Str.
3. Use Fury of Khorne to attack twice...
So now, your Dark Apostle is suddenly doing 8 attacks (base 3 + WE 1 + strategem 1 + prayer 3). And these 8 attacks are at Str 8 (black mace + strategem). and damage 2, and -4 AP.
And then you get to fight twice...
So, 16 str 8 attacks at -4 AP for damage flat 2 each. And dark apostle is WS 2+ This does not even factor in death to the false emperor triggering or possible warlord traits... lol
So... I think we now have our own CSM version of the smash captain now..
(Oh yes, you can add the psychic diabolic strength to this dark apostle too). Actually, if you use diabolic Str, you now have a Str 10 9 attack Dark Apostle. But if you are willing to do this, then you might as well go world bearers and use cursed Crozius instead). So now you will have Str 9 weapon that can reroll to wounds AND its a flat 3 damage. Truly smash captain epicness). lol
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Nah, Smash Captains have actual mobility is the difference.
Yes, but a Dark Apostle is only 76 points... lol I think it would be truly epic if a 76 point world bearers Dark Apostle went hulk with his Cused Crozius and smashed an imperial knight into bits and pieces... lol And given that knights don't have invul saves in cc. Statistically, with a 2+ WS and reroll to wound, this Dark Apostle has a pretty good chance of success. lol
grouchoben wrote: Yeah but it's exponential. Hulk Apostle could be legit... especially as you can take a few...
Unfortunately, you can only take one Cursed Crozius. How ever, you can run two Dark Apostles. One with Black Mace and the other with Cursed Crozius... The key thing is that its cheap. 76 points for one Dark Apostle. Only when you need to go "HULK", then you blow your CP on the strategems and such. And your Dark Apostle is likely accompanied by a bunch of cultists, or berserkers or possessed, or CSM, etc etc. So it benefits from the character rules and can't be targeted by shooting. So, its like this hidden time bomb that suddenly goes off and Hulk Smash when the opportunity presents itself.
With the release of the Eliminators and the buff to the Vindicare, there are now more than just a few options for imperial commanders to safely exterminate any dangerous characters from half-a-mile away.
So right now, i'm not all that happy about another slow stompy dude with a really big axe that will certainly make the long walk towards the enemy lines and just as certainly save the day by smashing anything in sight. Having these ideas about Dark Apostles and the new Master of Executions is really cool, and for some people, that's alright and i don't want to ruin the fun for them. But for me, i like to win every once in a while. People in my club are just giddy whenever i bring my World Eaters with me, because it's fun to beat them. I would've liked some options here. Anything, really. But instead it just looks like we get some new tasty things for people to kill and feel good about.
And if that's the dedicated role of chaos in the meta - well, that's just something that i'll have to accept. I can always tell my opponents to take it easy on me. That's not at all pathetic.
As i said, i looked forward to maybe see some new ways of deployment. Something to give us - melee-oriented chaos players - an edge to pressure shooty armies. Maybe even make it into the enemy lines once in a blue moon. But there is just nothing. No specialist detachment. No stratagem to turbo-charge our Rhinos. Nothing. Just a dude with a big axe and some Bloodletters throwing overpriced skulls. :(
Who needs snipers to eliminate enemy Characters when you can do it the good old-fashioned way – with an axe to the neck?
I know lines like this are meant to sound cool, but to me, they just sound like cruel mockery. "Who needs to shoot people when you can hit them with a stick instead?" Yeah, let's just pretend that we have some magical way of somehow ever making it even close towards those enemies and there is no way we'll get torn to shreds by mortar fire on the way there. Chaos is a god damn joke.
So run Daemon Princes and that new Lord of Discordant. I am pretty sure the Lord of Discordant is going to be T7 and be under category Daemon Engine rather than infantry. Good luck trying to snipe that guy to death. I will welcome all snipers to try.
BTW, from the world eater focus, that axe of dismemberment that the Master of Executioner wields. It is X2 strength and does not have any -1 when hitting stuff. So... the Master of Executioner will have the full benefit of death to the false emperor when wielding his weapon, and it is d3 damage. So, it is strictly better than a power fist in every way. And based on X2 strength, should be hitting at at least str 8. (If he is base str 5, its going to be str 10!)
Realizing with the new Red Corsairs trait if you take a battalion with the required CSM troops and Huron as your warlord you are getting 9 CP from that single detachment.
I like single battalion builds anyway so this really helps the low CP normally experienced.
Yeah. I mean the axe guy looks cool and all, but chaos does not lack for the profile of: character who will demolish you once he gets into melee, but can't because he has a 6" move.
Like, to be good (and I mean actually good, not just decent), melee has to either reach bad targets (like screens) turn one and/or things you want to hit turn 2. That is the unfortunate math of this edition, because they will all just die otherwise. Melee, for as fun as it is, demands either nutty levels of durability or 10-14 inch moves.
I would trade nearly any new thing we got for the following strategem: 1 CP: Assault Vehicles: Choose and Chaos Rhino or Chaos Land Raider; units embarked on that model may move and charge after the Rhino or Land Raider has moved.
Like would that make it good? No; your vehicle is still likely to get shot off the board and land raiders still need to be cheaper than they are right now to be decent. But, it would give you an option and manipulate your enemy's target priority. And it would make all of these things like possessed, the executioner, the MoP make so much more sense. Like, hitting hard alone is just not enough.
If that dark apostate gets a 3" bonus move aura though? That would be different, because at that point, you'll actually be well positioned with a lot of bodies for a 2nd turn charge. Again, that isn't amazing, but it would be a major boost. Warptime is an amazing spell, but it's pretty much anti-synergy; all of these overlapping auras and small unit characters don't mean anything if your only tool for getting units places mandates sending them well outside of aura range (which charging itself does often enough even without warptime).
drakerocket wrote: Yeah. I mean the axe guy looks cool and all, but chaos does not lack for the profile of: character who will demolish you once he gets into melee, but can't because he has a 6" move.
Like, to be good (and I mean actually good, not just decent), melee has to either reach bad targets (like screens) turn one and/or things you want to hit turn 2. That is the unfortunate math of this edition, because they will all just die otherwise. Melee, for as fun as it is, demands either nutty levels of durability or 10-14 inch moves.
I would trade nearly any new thing we got for the following strategem: 1 CP: Assault Vehicles: Choose and Chaos Rhino or Chaos Land Raider; units embarked on that model may move and charge after the Rhino or Land Raider has moved.
Like would that make it good? No; your vehicle is still likely to get shot off the board and land raiders still need to be cheaper than they are right now to be decent. But, it would give you an option and manipulate your enemy's target priority. And it would make all of these things like possessed, the executioner, the MoP make so much more sense. Like, hitting hard alone is just not enough.
If that dark apostate gets a 3" bonus move aura though? That would be different, because at that point, you'll actually be well positioned with a lot of bodies for a 2nd turn charge. Again, that isn't amazing, but it would be a major boost. Warptime is an amazing spell, but it's pretty much anti-synergy; all of these overlapping auras and small unit characters don't mean anything if your only tool for getting units places mandates sending them well outside of aura range (which charging itself does often enough even without warptime).
There's always forward operatives. It seems to have been forgotten since the nerf but even a model with a 6" move will have a charge threat range of 16-24" if you depoly on the line.
small_gods wrote: There's always forward operatives. It seems to have been forgotten since the nerf but even a model with a 6" move will have a charge threat range of 16-24" if you depoly on the line.
Forward Operatives with the new Beta Bolter rules is actually pretty sweet. Allows you to fire pretty deeply into your opponent's front line without moving. Still testing the validity of this though, so I'm not entirely sold on it yet.
Eh, at 1 CP per unit though. Even with a better CP farm, it's hard to justify putting forward a bunch of units and their support staff. A 16-24" range isn't useful; you want at least even odds on a charge if you're going to commit to that.
Thinking about it a bit though, it might be tolerable with the nurgle tree for possessed and their support people. So, 7 inches forward first turn (staying within that bubble) followed by a 11 inch move + advance, means..18 inches in. So even odds on a charge and you get 1+ armor saves turn one with -1 to hit in the event you don't get first turn.
I mean, it's almost certainly still not worth it; giving up a detachment and investing in the terrain feature just to make possessed kinda work is almost certainly not a good idea. But it probably is one of the more effective versions of this I have seen.
saint_red wrote: Chaos Daemon stratagems only work on units with <Daemon> as a *faction* keyword. So no, a MoP cannot use (Daemonic Pact).
The criteria there only applies to CD Stratagems that target a DAEMON unit (specifically, they target a CD and if they generate an aura that affects DAEMON units then non-CD DAEMONS - for instance, Defilers - can benefit from that). DP (and Soul Sacrifice) target a friendly CHAOS CHARACTER and are explicitly an allies synergy thing.
small_gods wrote: There's always forward operatives. It seems to have been forgotten since the nerf but even a model with a 6" move will have a charge threat range of 16-24" if you depoly on the line.
Forward Operatives with the new Beta Bolter rules is actually pretty sweet. Allows you to fire pretty deeply into your opponent's front line without moving. Still testing the validity of this though, so I'm not entirely sold on it yet.
Probably not. Rubric's problem isn't really that they are bad; they're not really all that bad in truth. Rubric's problem is that their gun profile really wants to kill MEQs, which don't exist in the meta. If marines, or anything t3-4 with a 3+ save was good and abundant, they'd see much more use.
drakerocket wrote: Eh, at 1 CP per unit though. Even with a better CP farm, it's hard to justify putting forward a bunch of units and their support staff. A 16-24" range isn't useful; you want at least even odds on a charge if you're going to commit to that.
When you know you're going first it's pretty solid. When you know you're going second, Prepared Positions definitely helps.
drakerocket wrote: Probably not. Rubric's problem isn't really that they are bad; they're not really all that bad in truth. Rubric's problem is that their gun profile really wants to kill MEQs, which don't exist in the meta. If marines, or anything t3-4 with a 3+ save was good and abundant, they'd see much more use.
Generally speaking I think you're right but with VotLW they have a significant threat to things in the T5-7 range. There's a lot of fliers and transports out there with that profile and dropping them to a 5+ from a 3+ doubles your efficiency.
Eldarain wrote: Delivery and resilience are their biggest issues though.
This is what chaos is lacking, all their rules sound neat at first, until you realize that none of them function in practice the way the writer possibly thought they would. Likely because whoever it is doesn't actually play 40k, which is painfully obvious from how laughably bad the rules are written. It's even more obvious that a lot of times what seems to be the intention doesn't work in practice because of the wonky keywords, so i guess the writer of the codex didn't bother to understand how keywords work in the game they're writing rules for. Then GW doesn't even bother fixing it with a new codex, lazy.
Just look at warp talons signature ability, it's basically unusable. Meanwhile my GSC army has dozens of different tricks, combos, and synergies to do what it's supposed to do. They're a blast to play with so many options. It makes chaos look even worse in comparison. What exactly does chaos even do well?
When i saw shadowspear i was all ramped up to completely rebuild my chaos army. I'll pass now because they have no fun or interesting playstyles and the rules are still frustratingly badly written.
Has the synergy between Master of Possession and Decimators already been discussed?
I'm thinking MoP with cursed earth, infernal power and switch smite for prescience hanging out together with a warpsmith and 1-3 decimators with either butcher cannons or soulburners.
It's a bit expensive but it seems pretty durable and pretty killy.
Gidun wrote:Has the synergy between Master of Possession and Decimators already been discussed?
I'm thinking MoP with cursed earth, infernal power and switch smite for prescience hanging out together with a warpsmith and 1-3 decimators with either butcher cannons or soulburners.
It's a bit expensive but it seems pretty durable and pretty killy.
drakerocket wrote:It's cute, but triple contemptors does the same role better.
The real question is then how much should I end up relying on synergy rather than the beef of the unit itself. Contemptors cam be argued to not need any babysitting, which is a point in their favor.
A nice thing Decimators have over Contemptors is Epidemius synergy
Seems a tad bit expensive for my taste for guaranteed reroll 1s and +1T (Gods be willing), but should overall be decent at providing a springboard for tally.
The real question is then how much should I end up relying on synergy rather than the beef of the unit itself. Contemptors cam be argued to not need any babysitting, which is a point in their favor.
Absolutely. However I really like the consistency across the decimator provides over contemptors over the course of the turns, provided it doesn't just get blown up to kingdom come.
Edit: Basically, <6 wounds you're gonna have a worse decimator when playing contemptor, and that's without MoP or Warpsmith. And with Sacrifice being 4WC it seem like something you can reliably use. 4+D3W/Turn for decimator. Sounds to me that people are going to have to put a lot of firepower into a 4++ decimator to kill it when it can basically reset to full wounds every turn. Plus if for whatever reason you feel the need to you can use Daemonforge if you need to hit something at T8+. Is there something I'm missing with my line of thought? Even if you skip the warpsmith it sounds like having a MoP as a babysitter should do pretty good.
Gidun wrote: Well, contemptor has a degrading chart. Has a lower invul save since he won't be affected by the MoP aura, can't get healed by the MoP.
Sure, contemptors have +1BS and 2W on the decimators.But they seem less durable to me in the long run.
Edit: Forgot to mention that they don't get the reroll 1s to hit/wound either.
The degrading profile is a moot point, always has been. Look at the table. by the time a contemptor hits worse then a decimator the decimator would already be dead. It's also ever so slightly cheaper to run the contemptors, 138 compared to 140, who also get their legion trait. Alpha legion contemptor suddenly spike WAY past those decimators even with all the tricks your aiming for. BTW relying on spells is never a good idea. Going second means you start less durable, and a failed cast or a denial will happen.
The rerolling 1's to wound makes the damage average out nearly the same, but again, you relying on a power to go off on a more expensive character. I'll always take passive buffs when I can over random chance ones.
You also get your buffs on everything, not just demon units. Since a backfield is usually populated with none demon fire support I think it's also worth mentioning. I've heard it suggested to use the Lord Discordant to boost BS further, but I think this just makes the problem of cost even worse.
A nice thing Decimators have over Contemptors is Epidemius synergy
Seems a tad bit expensive for my taste for guaranteed reroll 1s and +1T (Gods be willing), but should overall be decent at providing a springboard for tally.
The real question is then how much should I end up relying on synergy rather than the beef of the unit itself. Contemptors cam be argued to not need any babysitting, which is a point in their favor.
Absolutely. However I really like the consistency across the decimator provides over contemptors over the course of the turns, provided it doesn't just get blown up to kingdom come.
Edit: Basically, <6 wounds you're gonna have a worse decimator when playing contemptor, and that's without MoP or Warpsmith. And with Sacrifice being 4WC it seem like something you can reliably use. 4+D3W/Turn for decimator. Sounds to me that people are going to have to put a lot of firepower into a 4++ decimator to kill it when it can basically reset to full wounds every turn. Plus if for whatever reason you feel the need to you can use Daemonforge if you need to hit something at T8+. Is there something I'm missing with my line of thought? Even if you skip the warpsmith it sounds like having a MoP as a babysitter should do pretty good.
Edit2: TLDR: i LiKe DeCiMaToRs hurr durr
Sure, you have some great points there, but in the end it's just a few butchers canons. While butcher canons are solid, they start to lose their polish when you over invest. It's the reason why you didn't see much chatter until points went down. If your putting a MoP and a WS next to your decimators your basically spending ~90-100 points more then three dreads and a chaos lord. Thats not a small chunk of change for the same gun.
EDIT: BTW I also love deci's I own 4 lol. So I do still like the idea, but its an interesting topic. As JNA said, maybe running both in a list would be fun.
I <3 the look of decimators. And, conceptually, I like them more in general. But the reason I say they're just not as good as contemptors is because I wanted them to be and looked at all of this stuff >.> They just end up being worse unfortunately.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mind you, part of this is that contemptors are just very good and fill the same job, particularly alpha legion ones. They'd probably be meta if vanilla chaos was at all meta and for the fact they are just such lovely targets for castelians.
The look of the decimators make up for the little bit of extra umpf the contemptors provide. I like the contemptors too, so I run both. Decimators in the back shooting line with the other shooting engines (deredeo and leviathon), contemptors moving forward with the blood slaughterers. I wish the decimators and contemptors roles were reversed though as the decimator really looks like he wants to punch someone in the face. The Levi might get more of a frontline spot now that havocs have a new pair of shoes.
Hm, the legion trait is a good point that I overlooked. So basically what what I'm getting from this is this:
Decimators
---------------
+Good synergies/stratagem
+Slightly better defensively unless it's a 1 turn KO +Not degrading (which I disagree with you being moot)
-No legion trait
-Slightly worse at shooting
-Every decimator post 1 has a diminishing return
Contemptor
----------------
+Legion traits
+No real drawbacks on having more than 1
+ 2W+
+ Slightly better at shooting
+1 combi bolter more/Contemptor
-Worse regen
-Worse synergies/stratagems
-Degrades
Honestly, I think the difference is so slight that whichever you prefer isn't a major hurdle. I do however concede that it's easy to overinvest in the decimator. One CL/Warpsmith/MoP might be enough for it to be decent enough due to Daemonforge.
1 WS is not slightly worse at shooting, it's a solid downside. They're not better defensively, they lack 2 w and probably -1 to hit. At what point does the degrading matter? If they've both taken 0-5 wounds, the contemptor is better. If they've both taken 6-7 wounds, they're even. If they've both taken 8-9 wounds, the contemptor is better because the decemator is dead.
The regen...eh, that's hard. If things didn't get so alpha-striked in this edition, it might be worthwhile. Unfortunately, healing is a pretty weak mechanic. It doesn't synergize particularly well; sure you can give it rerolls of 1 to hit and wound by casting a 50-50 power, and/or +1 saves (which isn't quite as good as -1 to hit, plus you don't get it if your opponent goes first). To do so you need to probably devote a 90 point model to hanging around them, just to bring them up to par on shooting and toughness (rerolling 1s to hit and wound probably nets something comparable to an additional WS). And there is no guarantee you'll get off both of those spells. Tossing daemonforge on a contemptor anti-synergies with a LoP. Most other daemon synergies are melee oriented.
Like, if your argument is "I <3 this model and it's perfectly decent", your argument is valid. It is decent. But it is just a strictly worse choice. Like, if two models did the exact same thing and one was 100 points and one was 90, the 90 point one would be better. But if I <3'd the model, I might just run the 100 point one anyway.
Contemptors don't get access to Daemonforge. Why I'm saying decimators are slightly worse is because with 8 shots at BS 3 vs 2 the contemptor is gonna get in 1,5ish more shots/turn.
This on the other hand changes in favor of the decimator when you factor in daemonforge which contemptor doesn't have access to.
1CP-Decimator > Contemptor > Decimator offensively. The difference between 1CP-D and Contemptor increases the higher toughness or -hits the target you're aiming at has.
And yes, in a vaccuum the contemptor has a better statline offensively and defensively, but disregarding synergies that the the overall chaos faction can bring (read: Nurgle discipline) brings it down to at the very least equal footing for a not very expensive price.
I'm not a super competetive player, nor am I part of the american meta so it might be a difference between that and where I live, but generally I don't see my 8W+ T7 models with 5++ die all the time in one turn.
It's the "not a competitive player" part. Turn one destroy all the things! really hurts this edition--it's not an American meta thing, it's a rules thing. I get that they wanted it to play faster, but when the game is over in two rounds, I sort of feel cheated out of an actual game.
I would say yes, but that is dependent on a lot of factors. What detatchments are you running to get CP and/or buffs? What leader characters are you running to get auras and buffs? What other units do you want surrounding your deredeo? What, if any, sort of theme or narrative do you want with your army? 8th ed. Is fantastic in some respects (it allows for pretty much whatever sort of army you want to run to run at a low competitive level quite well. It also sucks in that if you are running at a turbocharged level, everything is going to burn out by turn two.
Gidun wrote: Contemptors don't get access to Daemonforge. Why I'm saying decimators are slightly worse is because with 8 shots at BS 3 vs 2 the contemptor is gonna get in 1,5ish more shots/turn.
This on the other hand changes in favor of the decimator when you factor in daemonforge which contemptor doesn't have access to.
1CP-Decimator > Contemptor > Decimator offensively. The difference between 1CP-D and Contemptor increases the higher toughness or -hits the target you're aiming at has.
And yes, in a vaccuum the contemptor has a better statline offensively and defensively, but disregarding synergies that the the overall chaos faction can bring (read: Nurgle discipline) brings it down to at the very least equal footing for a not very expensive price.
I'm not a super competetive player, nor am I part of the american meta so it might be a difference between that and where I live, but generally I don't see my 8W+ T7 models with 5++ die all the time in one turn.
Edit: Added bold
Daemonforge can only be used on one model a time. If you used it on a Maulerfiend earlier, then the Decimator is kinda SOL don't you think? Plus I think it was FAQd that Contemptors can use the Fire Frenzy Strategem right? If not, do disregard that.
Wait, I feel like you kind of deflected my question.
The point I was getting at was that if everything blows up in 1 turn the defensive portion isn't really a factor which in turn means the only relevant part of decimator vs contemptor is the offensive part. And I'm prepared to make the claim that as long as you have the CP to feed your decimator it will by default be better than the contemptor.
Just to reaffirm, as soon as you add another decimator you're better off taking a contemptor due to diminishing returns.
This is all a bit hyperbolic, but I honestly can't agree with the notion that it all takes place in a vaccum which seems to be the argument. If it really was that lethal we'd be better off simply investing in distraction carnifexes instead. And afaik nobody runs 3+ contemptors/decimators to simply get to attack with any of them.
I'd just like to say that I appreciate you making your case, hopefully I'll learn something if nothing else.
Gidun wrote: Contemptors don't get access to Daemonforge. Why I'm saying decimators are slightly worse is because with 8 shots at BS 3 vs 2 the contemptor is gonna get in 1,5ish more shots/turn.
This on the other hand changes in favor of the decimator when you factor in daemonforge which contemptor doesn't have access to.
1CP-Decimator > Contemptor > Decimator offensively. The difference between 1CP-D and Contemptor increases the higher toughness or -hits the target you're aiming at has.
And yes, in a vaccuum the contemptor has a better statline offensively and defensively, but disregarding synergies that the the overall chaos faction can bring (read: Nurgle discipline) brings it down to at the very least equal footing for a not very expensive price.
I'm not a super competetive player, nor am I part of the american meta so it might be a difference between that and where I live, but generally I don't see my 8W+ T7 models with 5++ die all the time in one turn.
Edit: Added bold
Daemonforge can only be used on one model a time. If you used it on a Maulerfiend earlier, then the Decimator is kinda SOL don't you think? Plus I think it was FAQd that Contemptors can use the Fire Frenzy Strategem right? If not, do disregard that.
They did get the HELBRUTE keyword, but fire frenzy is for the unit Helbrute. So basically they gained access to legion traits.
Absolutely, Damonforge is limited, hence why it's a diminishing return on having several decimators. What I'm trying to argue is the merits of having decimator(s) over contemptor. Usually I would try to avoid building a list where it's oversaturated with units having to rely on the same stratagem,
which makes your point a little bit of an outlier.
Edit: Just to illustrate my point and go further down the rabbithole. If you are able to hypothetically fire your butcher cannons at full effect for an entire 7 game turns. Then the hit difference between BS2 and BS3 is 9 hits. Sure, it's the difference of having an additional turn of shooting and hitting everything. But how often does this scenario actually come up? And the second you add in two turns of Daemonforge they even out against MEQ, So on the opposite end of the spectrum, lets pretend you only get 1-2 turns to shoot before kicking the bucket. Then you end up with a difference of 1 hit in favor of the decimator and 3 damage, once again, this difference only increases the higher toughness target you point your cannons at.
So quick scenario: 20 strong alpha legion possessed unit, starts off the game with a nurgle tree by them. 40 wounds guarded by -1 to hit 1+ saves. Even if you lose first turn that will be hard to shift. Starting on your turn give them another -1 to be hit from a nurgle spell, -1 to be hit from dark apostate....now they are immune to 4+ shooting and 3+ shooting hits them on 6s....
So now you have what makes all of the rest of it make sense: a walking wall of nearly invincible meat. Now you can foot slog all of those support characters behind them.
drakerocket wrote: So quick scenario: 20 strong alpha legion possessed unit, starts off the game with a nurgle tree by them. 40 wounds guarded by -1 to hit 1+ saves. Even if you lose first turn that will be hard to shift. Starting on your turn give them another -1 to be hit from a nurgle spell, -1 to be hit from dark apostate....now they are immune to 4+ shooting and 3+ shooting hits them on 6s....
So now you have what makes all of the rest of it make sense: a walking wall of nearly invincible meat. Now you can foot slog all of those support characters behind them.
Well you can also spend some cp to move them up, get yourself also warptime and try to explain to your opponent wtf is going on.
Is this why all the CSM units feel so lackluster on their own? Because the playtesters looked at the theoretical power scaling with all the possible buffs stacked on a single unit and just designed every unit with the assumption that we will be buffing them to oblivion?
"Of course the Forgefiend has BS 4+ and doesn't ignore moving and shooting heavy weapons penalty, who isn't going to cast prescience and daemonforge on them and have abaddon babysitting them at all times?"
Continuity wrote: Is this why all the CSM units feel so lackluster on their own? Because the playtesters looked at the theoretical power scaling with all the possible buffs stacked on a single unit and just designed every unit with the assumption that we will be buffing them to oblivion?
"Of course the Forgefiend has BS 4+ and doesn't ignore moving and shooting heavy weapons penalty, who isn't going to cast prescience and daemonforge on them and have abaddon babysitting them at all times?"
Probably and we are not alone in that, loyalists suffer from the same with gman and callgar.
It's why equipment for us is atleast Partly so expensive.
Continuity wrote: Is this why all the CSM units feel so lackluster on their own? Because the playtesters looked at the theoretical power scaling with all the possible buffs stacked on a single unit and just designed every unit with the assumption that we will be buffing them to oblivion?
"Of course the Forgefiend has BS 4+ and doesn't ignore moving and shooting heavy weapons penalty, who isn't going to cast prescience and daemonforge on them and have abaddon babysitting them at all times?"
Bingo. Most other armies were priced on their own unit merits.
err, why would we even need to soup in a daemon detachment? Misama of pestilence is spell that any Nurgle sorceror can get. And any CSM army can run Dark Apostles. And after facing all the shenanigons that Imperium soup dishes out, souping in daemons would not faze me in the slightest.
Eldenfirefly wrote: err, why would we even need to soup in a daemon detachment? Misama of pestilence is spell that any Nurgle sorceror can get. And any CSM army can run Dark Apostles. And after facing all the shenanigons that Imperium soup dishes out, souping in daemons would not faze me in the slightest.
Mostly because the suggestion before was with the tree.
I am intrigued by your position, not considering Fw but beeing perfectly fine with soup.
Also not any nurgle sorcerer can get the miasma, only sorceres with the correct discipline can get them, MoP can't.
Eldenfirefly wrote: err, why would we even need to soup in a daemon detachment? Misama of pestilence is spell that any Nurgle sorceror can get. And any CSM army can run Dark Apostles. And after facing all the shenanigons that Imperium soup dishes out, souping in daemons would not faze me in the slightest.
Mostly because the suggestion before was with the tree.
I am intrigued by your position, not considering Fw but beeing perfectly fine with soup.
Also not any nurgle sorcerer can get the miasma, only sorceres with the correct discipline can get them, MoP can't.
You should be able to give MoP miasma if you give him mark of nurgle and use chaos familiar strat unless Im missing something
Edit: Just read through the book, you seem to be right. The mark spells doesn't seem to be a part of any discipline even if they exist in other disciplines.
Eldenfirefly wrote: err, why would we even need to soup in a daemon detachment? Misama of pestilence is spell that any Nurgle sorceror can get. And any CSM army can run Dark Apostles. And after facing all the shenanigons that Imperium soup dishes out, souping in daemons would not faze me in the slightest.
Mostly because the suggestion before was with the tree.
I am intrigued by your position, not considering Fw but beeing perfectly fine with soup.
Also not any nurgle sorcerer can get the miasma, only sorceres with the correct discipline can get them, MoP can't.
You should be able to give MoP miasma if you give him mark of nurgle and use chaos familiar strat unless Im missing something
Edit: Just read through the book, you seem to be right. The mark spells doesn't seem to be a part of any discipline even if they exist in other disciplines.
No the mark spells are part of the regular csm discipline, just having an additional condition.
The MoP so far we know has no access to this discipline making it impossible for him to be taken.
Also 1 sorc 1 MoP alone for 1 squad to make it useable is quite the steep requirement imo.
Eldenfirefly wrote: err, why would we even need to soup in a daemon detachment? Misama of pestilence is spell that any Nurgle sorceror can get. And any CSM army can run Dark Apostles. And after facing all the shenanigons that Imperium soup dishes out, souping in daemons would not faze me in the slightest.
Mostly because the suggestion before was with the tree.
I am intrigued by your position, not considering Fw but beeing perfectly fine with soup.
Also not any nurgle sorcerer can get the miasma, only sorceres with the correct discipline can get them, MoP can't.
You should be able to give MoP miasma if you give him mark of nurgle and use chaos familiar strat unless Im missing something
Edit: Just read through the book, you seem to be right. The mark spells doesn't seem to be a part of any discipline even if they exist in other disciplines.
No the mark spells are part of the regular csm discipline, just having an additional condition.
The MoP so far we know has no access to this discipline making it impossible for him to be taken.
Also 1 sorc 1 MoP alone for 1 squad to make it useable is quite the steep requirement imo.
By this manner the MoP absolutely has access to the dark hereticus discipline.
And by the wording of mark of chaos power it doesn't seem to be a part of the dark hereticus discipline, I can't tell if people play it this way though, since I didn't even think they might not be part of the dark hereticus discipline before reading the wording.
Eldenfirefly wrote: err, why would we even need to soup in a daemon detachment? Misama of pestilence is spell that any Nurgle sorceror can get. And any CSM army can run Dark Apostles. And after facing all the shenanigons that Imperium soup dishes out, souping in daemons would not faze me in the slightest.
Mostly because the suggestion before was with the tree.
I am intrigued by your position, not considering Fw but beeing perfectly fine with soup.
Also not any nurgle sorcerer can get the miasma, only sorceres with the correct discipline can get them, MoP can't.
Well, true... But its not like if you bring a MOP and a Sorceror, they are wasted space. they are good for a lot more things than just one psychic each. My position on FW is simply because all the people I do play with don't use forgeworld. And previously, I also discovered that forgeworld likes to use resin while I vastly preferred plastic. That's all really. I could use FW, but why give my friends the excuse to say I won simply because I was using forgeworld while they weren't? Besides, I am not sure even if I did resort to forgeworld models, I would suddenly be able to beat them all the time.
saint_red wrote: Lol where's that bloke who was complaining about DAs being nerfed. Undeniable, first-turn agnostic -1 to hit on friendly units within 6? Yes please.
Only downside is how do I choose which HQs to bring!
Well the pricetag decides imo, and the two dudes also cost probably pts so 2/3rd chance only that said the supreme command detachment does exist.
Eldenfirefly wrote: err, why would we even need to soup in a daemon detachment? Misama of pestilence is spell that any Nurgle sorceror can get. And any CSM army can run Dark Apostles. And after facing all the shenanigons that Imperium soup dishes out, souping in daemons would not faze me in the slightest.
Mostly because the suggestion before was with the tree.
I am intrigued by your position, not considering Fw but beeing perfectly fine with soup.
Also not any nurgle sorcerer can get the miasma, only sorceres with the correct discipline can get them, MoP can't.
Well, true... But its not like if you bring a MOP and a Sorceror, they are wasted space. they are good for a lot more things than just one psychic each. My position on FW is simply because all the people I do play with don't use forgeworld. And previously, I also discovered that forgeworld likes to use resin while I vastly preferred plastic. That's all really. I could use FW, but why give my friends the excuse to say I won simply because I was using forgeworld while they weren't? Besides, I am not sure even if I did resort to forgeworld models, I would suddenly be able to beat them all the time.
You wouldn't fw Chaos stuff beyond some dreads is on the price point effectiveness scale of Meeh rather then neutral.
Eldenfirefly wrote: err, why would we even need to soup in a daemon detachment? Misama of pestilence is spell that any Nurgle sorceror can get. And any CSM army can run Dark Apostles. And after facing all the shenanigons that Imperium soup dishes out, souping in daemons would not faze me in the slightest.
Mostly because the suggestion before was with the tree.
I am intrigued by your position, not considering Fw but beeing perfectly fine with soup.
Also not any nurgle sorcerer can get the miasma, only sorceres with the correct discipline can get them, MoP can't.
You should be able to give MoP miasma if you give him mark of nurgle and use chaos familiar strat unless Im missing something
Edit: Just read through the book, you seem to be right. The mark spells doesn't seem to be a part of any discipline even if they exist in other disciplines.
No the mark spells are part of the regular csm discipline, just having an additional condition.
The MoP so far we know has no access to this discipline making it impossible for him to be taken.
Also 1 sorc 1 MoP alone for 1 squad to make it useable is quite the steep requirement imo.
By this manner the MoP absolutely has access to the dark hereticus discipline.
And by the wording of mark of chaos power it doesn't seem to be a part of the dark hereticus discipline, I can't tell if people play it this way though, since I didn't even think they might not be part of the dark hereticus discipline before reading the wording.
That's a bit roundabout but it looks legal to me. What says you, BCB?
It does... though I am not sure why we want to do this. At this stage, we got so many nice psychic spells I don't see why we wouldn't want to go with a MOP and a sorceror unless we really absolutely have to. I have to admit though, our characters aren't cheap so we could end up spending too much on HQ choices.
BTW, stacking all these nurgle and -1 to hit stuff on Alpha legion Obliterators sound OP as well. The only thing is you sacrifice the chance to use cacophony. If you don't go nurgle and just stick to slanaash. You can still get the following on Obliterators.
1) Alpha legion -1 to hit
2) Dark Apostle prayer (-1 to hit) (Who else says he isn't good now)
3) In cover, +1 to save for a 1+ save.
4) MOP cursed earth for a 4++
5) 5+ FNP (because of delightful agonies)
6) T5 ... lol
And yes, on this you can spam cacophony every turn until they beg for mercy. lol
On the other hand, nurgle strategem can spend 2 CP to heal a nurgle unit d3 HP. Imagine after spending tons of effort to bring a 4W Obliterator down to 1W, and then you use 2 CP to heal it back to full health again... lol At that point, I think your opponent will refuse to play you anymore... lol And now we get to use even more CP! Luckily we can +3 CP from the spiky 17 now.
A little bit unrelated. For those of you fearing snipers and Vindicare. The Lord of skulls is a big model that is very good for blocking line of sight because its quite tall as well and its solid at the bottom too, unlike knights. So you can charge it up the field and have your master of possession follow behind safely tucked out of sight behind the huge bulk of the LOS, but still being able to cast the psychic cursed earth and infernal power. Plus LOS itself also benefits from those two spells.
Eldenfirefly wrote: It does... though I am not sure why we want to do this. At this stage, we got so many nice psychic spells I don't see why we wouldn't want to go with a MOP and a sorceror unless we really absolutely have to. I have to admit though, our characters aren't cheap so we could end up spending too much on HQ choices.
BTW, stacking all these nurgle and -1 to hit stuff on Alpha legion Obliterators sound OP as well. The only thing is you sacrifice the chance to use cacophony. If you don't go nurgle and just stick to slanaash. You can still get the following on Obliterators.
1) Alpha legion -1 to hit
2) Dark Apostle prayer (-1 to hit) (Who else says he isn't good now)
3) In cover, +1 to save for a 1+ save.
4) MOP cursed earth for a 4++
5) 5+ FNP (because of delightful agonies)
6) T5 ... lol
And yes, on this you can spam cacophony every turn until they beg for mercy. lol
On the other hand, nurgle strategem can spend 2 CP to heal a nurgle unit d3 HP. Imagine after spending tons of effort to bring a 4W Obliterator down to 1W, and then you use 2 CP to heal it back to full health again... lol At that point, I think your opponent will refuse to play you anymore... lol And now we get to use even more CP! Luckily we can +3 CP from the spiky 17 now.
A little bit unrelated. For those of you fearing snipers and Vindicare. The Lord of skulls is a big model that is very good for blocking line of sight because its quite tall as well and its solid at the bottom too, unlike knights. So you can charge it up the field and have your master of possession follow behind safely tucked out of sight behind the huge bulk of the LOS, but still being able to cast the psychic cursed earth and infernal power. Plus LOS itself also benefits from those two spells.
You can also stick an infernal enrapturess near them, she can also deep strike, offer psychic protection and has a weapon with the same range that can prey upon the same targets as them. In addition she can also on a 6 revive an Obliterator which would be hilarious.
I really do like all the optimism, but do we actually have any concrete evidence yet? That -1 to hit is nice, sure, but i still haven't found a picture of it anywhere.
Also keep in mind that if GW keeps pricing units based on possible synergy, the price tag for the DA is very unlikely to stay the same.
VyRa wrote: I really do like all the optimism, but do we actually have any concrete evidence yet? That -1 to hit is nice, sure, but i still haven't found a picture of it anywhere.
Also keep in mind that if GW keeps pricing units based on possible synergy, the price tag for the DA is very unlikely to stay the same.
At that point you're reaching Aeldari levels of critical mass "cannot target this unit". Problem with it is that the unit needs to be Nurgle to get all of the bonuses, and I'm not sure if we have a unit worth dumping that much into that isn't Slaaneshi.
You wouldn't fw Chaos stuff beyond some dreads is on the price point effectiveness scale of Meeh rather then neutral.
Exactly! So, why give them the satisfaction. lol
Because you get exclusive Gloating rights if you win with a pure FW index army.
Yes i am petty, (not really, but when you literally pull a victory out of your may or may not mutated backside everytime you win it is rewawrding.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
VyRa wrote: Unfluffy as it may be, Alpha Legion possessed with an DA and MoP are starting to look kinda sexy with this.
Thank you for the hint.
your average marine Squad looks kinda sexy with this, your average Khorne berzerker looks sexy with this. Basically all units that can be taken in big squads look sexy with this.
Also i feel like -3 is still quite insane, i do hope they rein that in personally, i don't want to see another nerf for AL.
Also i feel like -3 is still quite insane, i do hope they rein that in personally, i don't want to see another nerf for AL.
I feel like the nerf was more about denying a big alpha strike. If they're going to start nerfing -to hit modifiers they need to start with Aliatoc flyers that are -2 with no psychic or stratergems!
