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It's amazing that Crimson Slaughter end up doing Word Bearers representation better once again. If you want large units, they're now a go-to.

Red Corsairs are the same except with more CP shenanagins. If you were already using it, you lost nothing and gained more.

 small_gods wrote:

Waaaghbert wrote:
3*5 corsairs CSM give 8 CP thats kinda usefull

With Huron as your warlord that's 9 CP for that battalion. Could be the CSM version of loyal 32.... the unloyal 32

well, i mean, a Red corsair battalion now generates 8 cp, 2 would therefore generate 16cp +3 from battleforged. that would be 21, without even fielding huron.

3 Warpsmiths for 165 pts, a sorcerer for 90 pts

390 pts for csm.

630 pts for 21 CP.


NOW that is a decent CP generation to points rate.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also isn't it a tad ironic that the Renegades allready outperform their older more experienced brethern?

 small_gods wrote:

Waaaghbert wrote:
3*5 corsairs CSM give 8 CP thats kinda usefull

With Huron as your warlord that's 9 CP for that battalion. Could be the CSM version of loyal 32.... the unloyal 32

More like the Traitorous 17

Wow, Red Corsair Battalion is absolutely full fat goodness. They keep the already pretty nice advance+charge, and get CPs out the wazoo. This is much more like it, I'm pretty relieved to see a rule that isn't afraid to give CSMs something different and decent.

Also isn't it a tad ironic that the Renegades allready outperform their older more experienced brethern?

...

Boys screw the legions, renegades is where it's at.

Theoretically there may be a specialist detachment for Red Corsairs, which could potentially allow for Huron and Abaddon to both be Warlords. So in theory you could be putting up 24 CP. Or you do a Vanguard specialist detachment with Abaddon, make Huron your main Warlord, plus another Battalion and get 20 CP pretty easily. Hard to say what the actual force composition looks like and you'd be fielding Terminators, but the potential is definitely there.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

Waaaghbert wrote:
3*5 corsairs CSM give 8 CP thats kinda usefull

With Huron as your warlord that's 9 CP for that battalion. Could be the CSM version of loyal 32.... the unloyal 32

well, i mean, a Red corsair battalion now generates 8 cp, 2 would therefore generate 16cp +3 from battleforged. that would be 21, without even fielding huron.

3 Warpsmiths for 165 pts, a sorcerer for 90 pts

390 pts for csm.

630 pts for 21 CP.


NOW that is a decent CP generation to points rate.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also isn't it a tad ironic that the Renegades allready outperform their older more experienced brethern?

You're confusing outperform with more organized. Which a recently turned Chapter would likely be.

This is why I was for separating the Legions from Renegades entirely and letting the Vanilla codex handle them, and let Legions actually feel like a real deadly fighting force of elites. Why else you think I shove my idea of Chosen as the base troops?

Red Corsairs, the gods of logistics and command

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You're confusing outperform with more organized. Which a recently turned Chapter would likely be.

This is why I was for separating the Legions from Renegades entirely and letting the Vanilla codex handle them, and let Legions actually feel like a real deadly fighting force of elites. Why else you think I shove my idea of Chosen as the base troops?

Except Red Corsairs are a hodgepodge of traitors, and GW's gone out of its way to establish how quickly many of the renegades fall... Not that I wouldn't welcome some sort of hybrid representation of recent renegades (that don't switch bizarrely to chaos wargear when they turn), but the current fluff does actually mostly support renegade CSM being closer to CSM than Marines.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You're confusing outperform with more organized. Which a recently turned Chapter would likely be.

This is why I was for separating the Legions from Renegades entirely and letting the Vanilla codex handle them, and let Legions actually feel like a real deadly fighting force of elites. Why else you think I shove my idea of Chosen as the base troops?

Except Red Corsairs are a hodgepodge of traitors, and GW's gone out of its way to establish how quickly many of the renegades fall... Not that I wouldn't welcome some sort of hybrid representation of recent renegades (that don't switch bizarrely to chaos wargear when they turn), but the current fluff does actually mostly support renegade CSM being closer to CSM than Marines.

Whilest this is true, Huron undoubtitly is a immensily capable leader and he has his logistics nailed down.
But still i stand by my point.

But that's represented by his rules. I don't see why the warband trait does the same. Unless I'm mistaken, there's never been a claim that RC commanders are anything special or organized. I haven't read all their fiction, but the two pieces that did include them described how barbarous they were and how quickly they'd fallen.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You're confusing outperform with more organized. Which a recently turned Chapter would likely be.

This is why I was for separating the Legions from Renegades entirely and letting the Vanilla codex handle them, and let Legions actually feel like a real deadly fighting force of elites. Why else you think I shove my idea of Chosen as the base troops?

Except Red Corsairs are a hodgepodge of traitors, and GW's gone out of its way to establish how quickly many of the renegades fall... Not that I wouldn't welcome some sort of hybrid representation of recent renegades (that don't switch bizarrely to chaos wargear when they turn), but the current fluff does actually mostly support renegade CSM being closer to CSM than Marines.

Whilest this is true, Huron undoubtitly is a immensily capable leader and he has his logistics nailed down.
But still i stand by my point.

I see what you mean by outperform. We will see what happens. I'm personally hoping Huron gets an updated sheet with a Chapter Master aura because he deserves it, dammit. It won't happen though.

What might be a good idea too is Abigail with his morale bubble advancing with large squads of Red Corsairs. I haven't worked out army composition at all though.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
But that's represented by his rules. I don't see why the warband trait does the same. Unless I'm mistaken, there's never been a claim that RC commanders are anything special or organized. I haven't read all their fiction, but the two pieces that did include them described how barbarous they were and how quickly they'd fallen.

Actually they are better then your average CSM commander, mostly due to the fact they actually have enough ships and logistical planning else Huron couldn't maintain his relative vast pirate empire.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm personally hoping Huron gets an updated sheet with a Chapter Master aura because he deserves it, dammit. It won't happen though.

Seriously, this, including the "dammit" bit! I've gotten over him having worse stats than his Badab days since he did get blown up, but I really don't get why he downgraded to the basic captain/lord buff. Deranged pirate half-robot or no, he's always been defined as a strong leader.

It's been argued that Huron is the most effective CSM commander outside Abigail himself. The way he held out in the Badab War speaks for itself I think.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm personally hoping Huron gets an updated sheet with a Chapter Master aura because he deserves it, dammit. It won't happen though.

Seriously, this, including the "dammit" bit! I've gotten over him having worse stats than his Badab days since he did get blown up, but I really don't get why he downgraded to the basic captain/lord buff. Deranged pirate half-robot or no, he's always been defined as a strong leader.

If anything the fether should get even better, or maybee because he got Hamadrya?

But considering he is not available atm, i'd say we have high chances to maybee get him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's been argued that Huron is the most effective CSM commander outside Abigail himself. The way he held out in the Badab War speaks for itself I think.

That and he forced Abbigal to the negotiating table to get some blackstone fortresses for his loyality.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm personally hoping Huron gets an updated sheet with a Chapter Master aura because he deserves it, dammit. It won't happen though.

Seriously, this, including the "dammit" bit! I've gotten over him having worse stats than his Badab days since he did get blown up, but I really don't get why he downgraded to the basic captain/lord buff. Deranged pirate half-robot or no, he's always been defined as a strong leader.

If anything the fether should get even better, or maybee because he got Hamadrya?

Well, he does get two psychic powers now...

Load of minor Renegade rules dropped, CP galore for some and Fallen can take Rhinos and Sorcerers now

Not Online!!! wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
But that's represented by his rules. I don't see why the warband trait does the same. Unless I'm mistaken, there's never been a claim that RC commanders are anything special or organized. I haven't read all their fiction, but the two pieces that did include them described how barbarous they were and how quickly they'd fallen.

Actually they are better then your average CSM commander, mostly due to the fact they actually have enough ships and logistical planning else Huron couldn't maintain his relative vast pirate empire.

He's possibly the only marine other than Abby that has equal respect from other war bands and legions, enough to strike equal deals with the black legion with forces numbering heresy legion size. So being numerous and organised is a fair stab at their shtick.

Regardless of his status though his model is puny at best, even his 25mm drowns him a little.

Dudeface wrote:
Regardless of his status though his model is puny at best, even his 25mm drowns him a little.

Working on it:

The renegade stuff is pretty fantastic, lot of neat stuff there tbh.

 Zid wrote:
The renegade stuff is pretty fantastic, lot of neat stuff there tbh.

Yeah, I played Red Corsairs a lot back in 2nd edition, little bit in 8th early on, but these new rules have definitely put the shine on that jalopy.

I guess we now have a CP farm. Seems like GW's trying pretty hard to get us to stop playing Legions.

I think the piratical 17 is probably going to be a pretty legit semi-competitive or even competitive choice. CSM being worth 75% more command points than cultists/guard is actually a really solid way to make them desirable as troops. One I hadn't really thought about to be honest.

I think Huron was probably in that close-to-usable state before this and I see no reason not to include him. 2 psychic powers, a solid melee profile, heavy flamer and a lord aura, along with a bonus CP if you make him a warlord (...which isn't going to always be what you want to do, but there will be times where you want to). That's great for 7 points over a vanilla sorc and competitive lists do see the occasional vanila sorc pop up. 3x5 vanilla CSM and you're up to 300 points.


I think what you do from there is a bit more of a question. I see several options; if you want to go cheap as possible, a warpsmith works; between him and luscious they would make a decent melee punch (not great, but not bad); further, if you give him that relic combimelta he's looking something like 10~ wounds on T7/3+ vehicles within 12 inches. Sure that won't come up all the time, but it will definitely come up. For 75 points, that's not bad. Otherwise, the tried and true slaanesh elixir prince wouldn't mind the ability to advance + charge.

Further, adv + charge was already one of our better traits for certain things; bikes or melee brutes, neither of which are amazing but neither of which are total trash after beta bolters/ points drops.

The other question is what do you do with the CSMs. I think giving them two combi-bolters is pretty sane; combi bolters with the beta bolters rule I feel are really worth it. It might even be worth shelling out for a heavy weapon per squad; 4 ablative wounds might make it worth it.

Let's make a kind/ideal comparison for their utility (3 x 5 squads with two combi); 24 inches with reroll ones, something that is pretty universally easy for chaos to get. So comparing their firepower at 24 inches to 60 guardsman, they fire 42 bs 3+ st 4 shots. Roughly 15 dead guardsman; 60 guardsman firing at 24 inches is 10 dead. Yes that is an ideal situation for the marines and a bad situation for the guard, but it does show that they aren't exactly worthless. If you assume FRSRF for 4 of the six groups (from two double-order commanders) then it matches pretty close. Sure, within 12 inches the math changes, but much more of the game is played at 24 inches than at 12.


Two loyal 32 bats is worth 10 cp and costs 372. One Piratical 17 bat costs 375 and generates 8/9. The firepower against infantry is in the same realm with an edge to the loyal 32. The durability favors the loyal 32 x 2. The CP slightly favors them. The melee and anti-vehicle capacity certainly favors the Piratical 17, and they get two psychic powers. They also only eat up one detachment slot. I think I am ready to say they are comparable and if the loyal 32 has an edge, it's not a big one. Keeping in mind that the loyal 32 is quite literally meta-defining, I think this is actually a pretty darn good win for chaos.

So all the joking about Red Corsairs being master tacticians aside, I think I really have to strike an optimistic note here. GW has made a legit improvement to competitive and semi-competitive Heratic Astares/chaos and they have done so in a way which makes you actively want to take marine bodies in most of your arrmies. It could always be better, of course, but I call that a legit win. Good job GE, sincerely.

Also, now that the Fallen have their own detachment that means I can tag Cypher as a Warlord, which means I should be able to put an Imperial Assassin on the field with reinforcement points.

That's interesting.

Red corsairs battalion with Two sorcs with 3 5 man Marine squads with rotor cannons is about 400pts and provides 8cp, backfield support, and 4 psychic powers. Not a bad little set up that could be plugged into most any chaos list from demons, to DG or renegade Knights.

 buddha wrote:
Red corsairs battalion with Two sorcs with 3 5 man Marine squads with rotor cannons is about 400pts and provides 8cp, backfield support, and 4 psychic powers. Not a bad little set up that could be plugged into most any chaos list from demons, to DG or renegade Knights.

Why not one sorc and Huron? He casts one and deny one power plus his re-rolls plus 1 CP plus his melee capabilities plus his Heavy Flamer. Though i dont know how hamadryas profile works...

What is the opinion on Crimson Slaughter trait? I really wanna play it, and will probably play it regardless of outside opinion, but do other people think it could work pretty well in a World Eaters-esque rushdown list? Berzerkers (and potentially cultists) getting auto-morale is pretty nice, and CP farming is handy as heck, all be it no where NEAR red corsairs good.

 avedominusnox wrote:
Why not one sorc and Huron? He casts one and deny one power plus his re-rolls plus 1 CP plus his melee capabilities plus his Heavy Flamer. Though i dont know how hamadryas profile works...

From a plug and play standpoint I think he has a point. However, if Red Corsairs get a specialist detachment or you want to make Huron your main Warlord I would tend to agree there's not much point in going with a Sorcerer over Huron.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vaklor4 wrote:
What is the opinion on Crimson Slaughter trait? I really wanna play it, and will probably play it regardless of outside opinion, but do other people think it could work pretty well in a World Eaters-esque rushdown list? Berzerkers (and potentially cultists) getting auto-morale is pretty nice, and CP farming is handy as heck, all be it no where NEAR red corsairs good.

I think it's not bad, I also think I'd play a lot of games where it triggered rarely or not at all, it would annoy me, I'd imagine flipping the table, then shelve them after the game for several months.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 avedominusnox wrote:
Why not one sorc and Huron? He casts one and deny one power plus his re-rolls plus 1 CP plus his melee capabilities plus his Heavy Flamer. Though i dont know how hamadryas profile works...

From a plug and play standpoint I think he has a point. However, if Red Corsairs get a specialist detachment or you want to make Huron your main Warlord I would tend to agree there's not much point in going with a Sorcerer over Huron.

And only for 105 pts..