Also i feel like -3 is still quite insane, i do hope they rein that in personally, i don't want to see another nerf for AL.
I feel like the nerf was more about denying a big alpha strike. If they're going to start nerfing -to hit modifiers they need to start with Aliatoc flyers that are -2 with no psychic or stratergems!
also true.
In the news they stated that Oblits retain their old codex price, i personally fully expect that to be a typo considering shadowspear, but if true, that would be huge.
Also cultists now lose traits, supposedly, well i mean now they are inferior to any human type troop, which feels bad i will be honest.
Discordant also got verfied as T6 12W , talk about a priority target.
We could always reach -2 by taking Alpha legion and casting Miasma. The problem was that there wasn't any infantry unit worth protecting to such a degree. Usually Nurgle CSM players had horde plague bearers. Even if they went a squad of 20 plague marines, then by this point you might as well go full Death Guard.
Now though, with the dark apostle given such a prayer, and possessed and obliterators buffed and can be part of special detachments, things are different. What's the point of protecting 20 marines? But protecting a unit of 3 oblits who can pump out 18 heavy shots per turn, or a big squad of possessed that can now be buffed to str 7 or even 8, where they can even start cutting up vehicles... now that changes everything !!
Oh wow, I just saw a video that had a quick run through of the new chaos codex. The new Havocs... @@ wow... They are toughness 5, and they can move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty. Also, they have a new Rotary chain cannon that shoots out 8 shots of str 5, AP -1, D1 at range 24 inches. That thing will murder chaff like nothing! 32 shots str 5 from a havoc squad packing 4. Cacophony to shoot twice for 64 str 5 shots at AP -1 !!!!
Yeah, new Havocs being locked at units of 5 is a bummer but it also means that investing in ways to protect them for a turn before they jump out and pump the field is an alternative to taking those 5 extra bodies. Ignoring the heavy weapon penalty means you could just plonk them in a transport and hop them out when needed. Toughness 5 helps a bit with keeping them safe. Between the Crown, prayers and psychic powers, there's a lot of means to protect them anyway.
Speaking of prayers, the new prayers from the Dark Apostle are amazing, have yet to see points on anything but the -1 to be hit prayer and the +1 to hit in shooting prayer are both fantastic. Also curious how Chaos gaining access to Thunder Hammers will impact character creation...
drakerocket wrote: So quick scenario: 20 strong alpha legion possessed unit, starts off the game with a nurgle tree by them. 40 wounds guarded by -1 to hit 1+ saves. Even if you lose first turn that will be hard to shift. Starting on your turn give them another -1 to be hit from a nurgle spell, -1 to be hit from dark apostate....now they are immune to 4+ shooting and 3+ shooting hits them on 6s....
So now you have what makes all of the rest of it make sense: a walking wall of nearly invincible meat. Now you can foot slog all of those support characters behind them.
Well you can also spend some cp to move them up, get yourself also warptime and try to explain to your opponent wtf is going on.
then you face dark reapers and poof ur unit regardless -3 to be hit, vaporize and you invested zillions of points to do nothing
Chaos Terminators dropped 2 points per model (so still 2 PPM more than Loyalist Terminators) BUT they can now take Chainaxes for a super cheap melee weapon. Running sub-30 point Terminators is now an option!
Dark Apostle's points got jacked up a lot, and as expected his Disciples add a little bit on top of that; when running the Disciples, it totals up to a nearly 50% increase in cost. I think it's still worth it given how amazing the prayers are.
Seems like the ideal way to run the Lord Discordant is just with the Autocannon and Techno-virus Injector, both the Baleflamer and the Magma Cutter add a lot to his price.
Noctilith Crown is on the expensive side unfortunately.
Yeah, massive buff for terminators. its like 29 points for one with combi bolter and chain axe. It might actually be interesting to consider starting a squad on the board as a cheap distraction carnefix. Put a shooty reaper cannon on one guy along with the rest having combi bolters. Its a tough unit that only heavy or special weapons can bring down. It will laugh at ordinary bullets.
Caederes wrote: Chaos Terminators dropped 2 points per model (so still 2 PPM more than Loyalist Terminators) BUT they can now take Chainaxes for a super cheap melee weapon. Running sub-30 point Terminators is now an option!
Dark Apostle's points got jacked up a lot, and as expected his Disciples add a little bit on top of that; when running the Disciples, it totals up to a nearly 50% increase in cost. I think it's still worth it given how amazing the prayers are.
Seems like the ideal way to run the Lord Discordant is just with the Autocannon and Techno-virus Injector, both the Baleflamer and the Magma Cutter add a lot to his price.
Noctilith Crown is on the expensive side unfortunately.
drakerocket wrote: So quick scenario: 20 strong alpha legion possessed unit, starts off the game with a nurgle tree by them. 40 wounds guarded by -1 to hit 1+ saves. Even if you lose first turn that will be hard to shift. Starting on your turn give them another -1 to be hit from a nurgle spell, -1 to be hit from dark apostate....now they are immune to 4+ shooting and 3+ shooting hits them on 6s....
So now you have what makes all of the rest of it make sense: a walking wall of nearly invincible meat. Now you can foot slog all of those support characters behind them.
Well you can also spend some cp to move them up, get yourself also warptime and try to explain to your opponent wtf is going on.
then you face dark reapers and poof ur unit regardless -3 to be hit, vaporize and you invested zillions of points to do nothing
yup, chain axe terminators are a thing now in CSM. Cheap as chips. Also, thunderhammer has appeared in our chaos armory. Maybe we will finally really get our own version of flying jump pack chaos lords wielding thunder hammers. I would love to see how my friends love being on the receiving end of their own smash captain shenenigans.
Renegade chapters are pretty great, most of the specialist detachments are OK to meh. Black legion got a lot of stuff, but i hate how GW keeps pushing all these morale buffs...
Stolen from another poster on Chaos forum, heres a rundown of vigilus (poor formatting sorry):
I summarised most of the new Vigilus Ablaze stuff.... Long post incoming:
Chaos temrinators can now take chain axes.
T5 havocs that can move and shoot heavy weps with no pentalty (still 14pts base per model)Havocs can only be taken in squads of 5. No more ablative wounds with bolter guys.
Chaos lords and chosen can take thunder hammers.
Abaddon got no point increase or change to his abilities, just the statline and Drachnyen is now 3dmg flat.
Lord Discordant is 12 wounds, T6, 160pts at its lowest cost with an autocannon. 2+ save, gains a wound back each turn and he can heal himself because hes a warpsmith. 12 inch movement.(edited)
Noctilith Crown (stargate) has 24inch bubble, turns doubles rolls into perils for enemy psykers. 6 inch aura of 5++ (models in 6inches) and psykers reroll psychic tests. For turns 2 and 3 the aura range increases by 3 inches. Has a str 7 pistol at 6 inches.
Skull Altar- increases invulns for khorne daemon characters by 1 (max of 3++) gives +1 attack to khorne daemon infantry within 6, increases a characters locus ability to 12 inches and also applies a negative to enemy psychic tests. It can be summoned apparently.
Master of Executions-3.5 Missile launchers in pts, new Dark Apostle 5 Missile Launchers in pts.
Black Legion relic- Foe cleaver axe +3 str, d3 dmg, +1 to hit against imperium units(edited)
Chosen of the warmaster- turns a terminator champion into a "mini abbaddon" (take that how you will)
Chosen Enforcers Stratagem-1CP- autopass morale at 18inches on a unit of "Bringers of Despair"
Devastation Battery detachment- Obliterators, havocs, lord, warpsmiths. Armour bane ability (as previewed), Relic: Daemons eye, gives a unit in the detachment ignore cover once per turn.
punishing volley Stratagem- 1CP-End of your opponents first movement phase, if you didnt get first turn you get to shoot with a unit from this detachment
Cult of the Damned detachment-apostles, disciples, cultists. Warlord trait- reroll failed charges for detachment units within 6inches of him and you get a flamer book that deals d3 damage. 1cp stratagem that makes cultists immune to morale for the rest of the game if they kill a model in melee. Chorus of the true faith-1CP-gives +1 to prayer roll on apostle if cultists nearby (so you can get auto prayer if hes next to his disciples and you use this strat)
Daemonkin Ritualists detachment- Master of possession, apostles, disciples, greater possessed and possessed units. Warlord trait- 6inch aura of 6's to wound deal an additional mortal wound. Vessels of the neverborn-1CP-+1 str to a detachment unit within 6 of a Master of possession. 1CP- slay a posssessed model to gain d3 mortal wounds back to a character Relic- force staff-end of each fight phase, pick a unit withing 1 inch and they suffer a mortal wound.
god theres so much.....
Soulforged pack detachment- warpsmiths and daemon engine units. Warlord trait- +2 to movement of daemon engines within 6 of the warlord. Relic-special mechatendrils- 1 attack for each enemy within 1 inch of the bearer instead of just +2 attacks. 1CP- doubles wounds characteristic of daemon engine 1CP- Allows a daemon wngine to advance and charge
Host Raptoral- ALL Jump pack dudes. Warlord trait, add 2 to charge rolls made for friendly detachment units within 6 inches of the warlord. 1CP- reroll hits in melee for a unit 1CP- more leadership shenanigans (as previewed) Relic: Jump pack (I think?) on a 4+ any unit that is moved over in the movement or charge phases suffers d3 mortal wounds
Fallen Angels detachment-take as a vanguard detachment for Fallen. You can also take rhinos and chaos sorcerers in the detachment. - 1 CP- -1 to hit a unit -1CP-Ancient Emnity- anti-dark angel strat (no other info) Relic- Force Sword- normal stats but a 6 to wound becomes d6 damage.
Legion of Skulls- Only affects Blood Letters (both HQ and Troops). Warlord Trait- +1A base and +1A more if theres an enemy character within 6inches. Relic- Goreplate- Regains d3 wounds on a 4+ if you slay any enemy models (+2 to the roll if he slew a character) 1CP-Deals mortal wounds to something (details werent clear) 2CP- If you successfully charge a unit, then other units get +2 to their charge rolls on the same target
Mere mortals-Chaos Cultists cannot benefit from legion traits.
Black Legion- No real changes to their rules
1CP- Gives an unaligned unit all the chaos marks for a turn. 3CP- Garuntees control of an objective if a Black Legion unit is in range. Regardless of Obsec. 1CP- If a Black Legion outnumbers an enemy unit in CC, +1 attack in cc 1CP- +1Ld to non-Black Legion units within 6 inches of any Black Legion unit 1 CP- If you have a lord, daemon prince or abaddon as warlord, you can gives a warlord trait to a sorceror and apostle. Extra Relic stratagem. Relics: Chainsword- str user, -3AP, 2dmg, +2A. 6+ to wound deal an additional mortal wound. Helmet- -1 BS, +1AP Angelsbane- combi-bolter as previewed Cloak that gives +1A, +1STR, +1LD for each character you slay (stacking for the rest of the game) Leadership shenanigans trophy- +1LD to friendly BL units, -1 LD to enemy units within 6inches Power Sword- +1 STR, -3AP, 1dmg, +d6 attacks Warlord traits: -Fall back and charge -Take half damage from attacks -+1 STR and on a 4+ a charged unit takes d3 mortal wounds -D3 mortal wounds when you destroy a unit. -5+ to get a command point back when you use a stratagem -DTTFE procs on a 5 on him.
Renegade traits: (Preivewed ones ommitted) The Purge- Reroll to hit rolls against units that have lost 1 or more wounds this turn. The Scourge- Reroll 1s to hit in shooting or fighting + overwatch on 5+ Brazen Beasts- any wound roll of 6+ in melee when they have charged, been charged or HI'd gets -4AP Flawless Host- 6+ to hit in the fight phase gets another attack (stacks with DTTFE)
Renegade Warlord Traits: Red Corsairs-free relic and any time your warlord kills a character they get +1 Attack Crimson Slaughter- -1 Leadership to enemies in 6, increases to -2LD in 9 inches if he kills a character. The Purge-Rerolls 1s t wound and rerolls damage rolls. The Scourged-3inches makes units always fight last (like armor of russ) Brazen Beasts- +2 Str and Attacks every time you kill a character. Flawless Host-Gets 3 extra attacks when you roll a 6+ to hit.
Renegade Stratagems: (previewed ones omitted) Red Corsairs- 3CP-At the end of your movement phase, you can remove a red corsairs chaos space marine unit from the battlefield and place it wholly within 6inches of the edge of the battlefield, more than 9inches form enemy units at full strength. (Tide of traitors for chaos marines....No limit on number of times you can use it) Brazen Beasts-1CP-At the end of the fight phase pick an enemy unit within 1 inch of a brazen beasts daemon engine, roll a d6, on 2-4 it summons d3 mortal wounds, on a 5 or 6 it suffers 3 mortal wounds. Crimson Slaughter- At the start of the enemy shooting phase, when they shoot at one f your units pick a terrain piece and any enemy units within 3 inches of it get -1 to hit till the end of the phase. Flawless Host-1CP-Reroll failed hit rolls for a unit in melee for the phase.
Renegade Relics: Red Corsairs-special combi melta (str 9 meltagun) Crimson Slaughter- Power sword-+1 str, -3AP. If a model is slain in the fight phase then for the rest of the battle, it auto-wounds everything. The Purge- grenade- thrown 8 inches at a point. Roll a d6 for each unit within d6 inches of that points (subtracting 2 vs vehicles). on a 4+ that unit suffers d3 mortal wounds. The Scourged- Any time an enemy psyker manifests a power within 18inches, on a 5+ they suffer a mortal wound. Daemonflesh Plate- 2+ armour save, +1 movement and +1 attack. Flawless host- Cloak that gives +1Attack, increases aura range by 3 inches.
Regarding the Lord Discordant I shared this in N&R and wanted to post it here as well
1 lord discordant can be a real bitch to deal with given these leaks. You can spend 1 CP to give him every mark, so he can then get all three god specific powers caston him, have an apostle give him a further -1 to hit, have a MOP give him +1 invuln save. He heals himself D3+1 and can have a MOP heal him a further 3 (2 if he uses the discordant for the sacrifice wound) using the multi mark strat he can then use the nurgle strat for a FURTHER D3 regen meaning the dink can regen 10 wounds a turn in theory. All while being -3 to hit if alpha legion, Having a 3+ invuln anda 5+++ (using the multi mark ability and powers )
I feel like the amount of stacking combos in this sand box are reaching power levels of 9000+
Red Corsair wrote: Regarding the Lord Discordant I shared this in N&R and wanted to post it here as well
1 lord discordant can be a real bitch to deal with given these leaks. You can spend 1 CP to give him every mark, so he can then get all three god specific powers caston him, have an apostle give him a further -1 to hit, have a MOP give him +1 invuln save. He heals himself D3+1 and can have a MOP heal him a further 3 (2 if he uses the discordant for the sacrifice wound) using the multi mark strat he can then use the nurgle strat for a FURTHER D3 regen meaning the dink can regen 10 wounds a turn in theory. All while being -3 to hit if alpha legion, Having a 3+ invuln anda 5+++ (using the multi mark ability and powers )
I feel like the amount of stacking combos in this sand box are reaching power levels of 9000+
Its not all marks. I believe its pick a single mark and it gains it until end of turn. I watched a video... kinda hard to remember. But yeah, if that is how the strat works, would be pretty silly lol
Not Online!!! wrote: Tiding 20 man blobs of CSM, i am spooked.
How many marines excactly did Huron get under his command!?!
In the lore he's described as having a force around the size of a pre-Heresy Legion (the smallest of which was 10,000, the largest of which was 250,000).
btw, flawless host trait is amazing. They get double death to the false emperor. Apply that to flawless host possessed and you suddenly have a unit that hits at up to str 7 or 8 with certain buffs and the double DTTFE are going to give them a ton of additional hits. Oh, and flawless host possessed can take icon of excess because they are slanaash. So, that makes their DTTFE trigger on a 5+ ...
Also, their strategem allows them to reroll hits in close combat... So, even more DTTFFE rolls... lol
Not Online!!! wrote: Tiding 20 man blobs of CSM, i am spooked.
How many marines excactly did Huron get under his command!?!
In the lore he's described as having a force around the size of a pre-Heresy Legion (the smallest of which was 10,000, the largest of which was 250,000).
Huron kills abadon (abadoff after it) and claims to be the Warmaster!
You heard it here first.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just for maths sake, you pick a regular Red corsair battalion, as cheap as possible so 110 pts in HQ 2x 5 man squads of CSM and 1 20 man squad.
390 +110 = 500 pts.
you can recycle with the ammount of CP you generated the 20 man blob 2 times, that means around 180 pts each time if you try to be carefull.
that would technically mean you expanded your 500 pts battalion with free 360 pts. so to speak.
Not with Abaddon's stat line he won't. Abaddon is a beast. And his relic weapon deals a flat 3 damage now. He will murder anything below a primarch.
That Nortlith Crown is for people who want to play gunline CSM. Its a huge terrain piece. Now, suddenly, your shooty hellbrutes get a invul save. Now all your ne new havocs also get an invul save. Their psykers may perils if they want to get close, while your psykers get better. And the aura it projects grows each turn too. So, erm yeah, its a good centre piece for shooty gunline CSM.
Flawless host does look pretty insane, one strat i saw:
Slaanesh flawless host demon prince, intoxicating elixir, warlord with the bonus 3 attacks trait. 8 attacks at str 8, generating 3 attacks on 6s or 4 attacks against imperium.
Zid wrote: Flawless host does look pretty insane, one strat i saw:
Slaanesh flawless host demon prince, intoxicating elixir, warlord with the bonus 3 attacks trait. 8 attacks at str 8, generating 3 attacks on 6s or 4 attacks against imperium.
I'm really trying to like the Scourged benefits but... eh. 5+ overwatch is pretty good, but won't be relevant in a lot of matchups and the other half of the trait is just worse than having a chaos lord around.
Arachnofiend wrote: I'm really trying to like the Scourged benefits but... eh. 5+ overwatch is pretty good, but won't be relevant in a lot of matchups and the other half of the trait is just worse than having a chaos lord around.
Would have been cool to get a pseudo greater good. Like one unit within 6" overwatches with you
There are so many renegade factions to choose from. Plus all the new special detachments, and black legion gained a whole bunch of new warlord traits, strategems and relics too. So, if you are playing soup, just pick what works for your army.
I think almost every theme has cool combos now. Even that raptoral host. Because it has a warlord trait that +2 to charge roll to all raptorial host units within 6 inches of the warlord. Suddenly, everything looks different when you just need a 7 inch charge rather than a 9 ... And raptors can take icon of wrath to reroll charge...
I think they are trying to get CSM to take big beefy units of 20 rather than MSU units of 5. With all the new possible prayer, strategems, psychic buffs... You get so much more bang for your buck if you use them on a big beefy unit of 20 rather than on a MSU unit of 5 (unless its 3 obliterators). Which then brings it back to black legion because black legion has the most ways for you to get raise or get immunity to morale, which would be a huge thing with a big expensive unit of 20.
It kinda fits the fluff too. Chaos CSM are kinda still like the legions of old. So, when chaos fights, it goes big! So, chunky big units of 20, with buffs from strategems, auras, prayers, etc all stacked on.
Am I reading right that the Disciples are T3, 1W, 6+Sv, two models, not Characters? Because that’s just going to get deleted by a mortar on the first round. In smaller games, a 1pow Elite choice could pay a Vanguard tax and hide in a ruin to hug an objective and deny deepstriking.
EDIT: aha, they can huddle up to the DA to hide. Does this make them sniper fodder? They don’t take up a slot, so this makes them a de facto DA points hike that fills transport capacity, not detachment requirements
Havocs are... acceptable. I guess. It’s nice to have something distinct from Devastators, and hiding on the first turn is probably better than buying meatshields. I get the impression it’s just heavy weapons for them now? Can we get the champion dual-wielding?
Hmm. Punishing Volley. Shoot in opponent’s movement phase if you lost first turn. Character targeting restrictions apply in the shooting phase. Have we just accidentally acquired a packet of four single-use Lascannon Sniper scopes?
Edit: no, you shoot as if it were your shooting phase, so targeting restrictions do apply. (I’m expecting this to be editing into music of the apocalypse when some blastmasters snipe a character in the fight phase in some big event)
Really, really not feeling it on the Discordant. So if a BL one gets first turn, they can hog all the endurance psychic powers. That’s going to require three Sorcerers or Daemon Princes, and it’s not going to do much good if you get second turn, and it’s no help for the other Legions. Even with all those spells working, it’s effectively 18W 4++ -1 to be hit (-2 if you buy him a DA), which is not an overwhelming hill for any Knight-ready list to level.
Do I read right that DAs not only have a 33% chance of having an asthma attack instead of preaching, they also cost 28 more pts? Ability to double up on Prescience is interesting, but that’s a hell of a hike.
I am in love with the Crimson Slaughter relic. +1 STR power sword, after killing any enemy model, all wound rolls with the sword are auto-succeed. Giggle in your enemy's face as you dish out 4-5 wounds on a knight with your 74 point chaos lord.
Are we the first faction to get a Terminators power level cut to match their points reduction? Because that’s going to matter for lists that deploy a lot of stuff off the table
lindsay40k wrote: Am I reading right that the Disciples are T3, 1W, 6+Sv, two models, not Characters? Because that’s just going to get deleted by a mortar on the first round. In smaller games, a 1pow Elite choice could pay a Vanguard tax and hide in a ruin to hug an objective and deny deepstriking.
Havocs are... acceptable. I guess. It’s nice to have something distinct from Devastators, and hiding on the first turn is probably better than buying meatshields. I get the impression it’s just heavy weapons for them now? Can we get the champion dual-wielding?
Hmm. Punishing Volley. Shoot in opponent’s movement phase if you lost first turn. Character targeting restrictions apply in the shooting phase. Have we just accidentally acquired a packet of four single-use Lascannon Sniper scopes?
Really, really not feeling it on the Discordant. So if a BL one gets first turn, they can hog all the endurance psychic powers. That’s going to require three Sorcerers or Daemon Princes, and it’s not going to do much good if you get second turn, and it’s no help for the other Legions. Even with all those spells working, it’s effectively 18W 4++ -1 to be hit (-2 if you buy him a DA), which is not an overwhelming hill for any Knight-ready list to level.
Do I read right that DAs not only have a 33% chance of having an asthma attack instead of preaching, they also cost 28 more pts? Ability to double up on Prescience is interesting, but that’s a hell of a hike.
Cheaper Terminators sound damn good to me.
1. I think disciples can't be targeted unless they are the closest to an enemy. Sort of like character targeting rules.
2. Havocs can move and shoot heavy weapons now. So, there is really nothing to stop you from hiding out of line of sight, and then moving out to shoot.
3. Yeah, punishing volley is cool. You get first turn, but I still get to shoot you with one of my units first lol. And someone pointed out that strategems like raise ion shields don't apply at the end of movement phase?
4. The Lord of discordant is a Lord. There is a black legion warlord trait that halves all damage you receive (like Abaddon). Suddenly, his 12 W becomes the equivalent of 24W with that trait. And that's before stacking on anything else. You could plink him to death, but with a 2+ save and T6, I don't think small arms will do much to him. 5. Dark Apostles got a points hike yes, but the new prayers are very interesting, and look a few pages back where I gave an example of how a dark apostle can suddenly go hulk at suddenly throw out 16 str 8 ot 9 attacks with the right prayer. And that -1 to hit, if you stack it on alpha legion and add miasma... yeah -3 to hit...
6. Yeah CSM terminators are really interesting now. Each combi chainaxe termi is just 29 points. Its cheap!!
It really annoys me that Dark Apostles are stuck with the old ability as a pre-defined prayer, to be honest... I think a lot of the things you would want to do with him, you wouldn't want re-rolls in the fight phase.
I love how everyone was crying that the new Apostle is bad and nerfed because he now has to roll for his aura ability instead of getting it automatically.
And now that we have more information people are backpedaling hard and saying how amazing he is.
Gosh I hate the internet. It's almost as if whining about stuff without having the full picture is a sport around here.
Arachnofiend wrote: It really annoys me that Dark Apostles are stuck with the old ability as a pre-defined prayer, to be honest... I think a lot of the things you would want to do with him, you wouldn't want re-rolls in the fight phase.
Well.. he has always been a close combat kinda of hero.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am going to try and make Lord of discordant work somehow, if only because I just love the idea of a daemon engine theme, and he looks awesome. Actually, given his huge movement (he moves 12), I think there will be ways to make him competitive.
Abaddon is actually kinda harder because he moves only 6, and he waste all his awesome melee if you just make him buff a gunline. Plus Chaos CSM was never that great as a gun line army in the first place. (Although who knows, with all the new stuff, maybe someone will come out with an absolutely wicked gunline list for CSM).
lindsay40k wrote: Am I reading right that the Disciples are T3, 1W, 6+Sv, two models, not Characters? Because that’s just going to get deleted by a mortar on the first round. In smaller games, a 1pow Elite choice could pay a Vanguard tax and hide in a ruin to hug an objective and deny deepstriking.
Havocs are... acceptable. I guess. It’s nice to have something distinct from Devastators, and hiding on the first turn is probably better than buying meatshields. I get the impression it’s just heavy weapons for them now? Can we get the champion dual-wielding?
Hmm. Punishing Volley. Shoot in opponent’s movement phase if you lost first turn. Character targeting restrictions apply in the shooting phase. Have we just accidentally acquired a packet of four single-use Lascannon Sniper scopes?
Really, really not feeling it on the Discordant. So if a BL one gets first turn, they can hog all the endurance psychic powers. That’s going to require three Sorcerers or Daemon Princes, and it’s not going to do much good if you get second turn, and it’s no help for the other Legions. Even with all those spells working, it’s effectively 18W 4++ -1 to be hit (-2 if you buy him a DA), which is not an overwhelming hill for any Knight-ready list to level.
Do I read right that DAs not only have a 33% chance of having an asthma attack instead of preaching, they also cost 28 more pts? Ability to double up on Prescience is interesting, but that’s a hell of a hike.
Cheaper Terminators sound damn good to me.
1. I think disciples can't be targeted unless they are the closest to an enemy. Sort of like character targeting rules.
2. Havocs can move and shoot heavy weapons now. So, there is really nothing to stop you from hiding out of line of sight, and then moving out to shoot.
3. Yeah, punishing volley is cool. You get first turn, but I still get to shoot you with one of my units first lol. And someone pointed out that strategems like raise ion shields don't apply at the end of movement phase?
4. The Lord of discordant is a Lord. There is a black legion warlord trait that halves all damage you receive (like Abaddon). Suddenly, his 12 W becomes the equivalent of 24W with that trait. And that's before stacking on anything else. You could plink him to death, but with a 2+ save and T6, I don't think small arms will do much to him. 5. Dark Apostles got a points hike yes, but the new prayers are very interesting, and look a few pages back where I gave an example of how a dark apostle can suddenly go hulk at suddenly throw out 16 str 8 ot 9 attacks with the right prayer. And that -1 to hit, if you stack it on alpha legion and add miasma... yeah -3 to hit...
6. Yeah CSM terminators are really interesting now. Each combi chainaxe termi is just 29 points. Its cheap!!
Re Ion shields: given that the shooting is done ‘as if it were your shooting phase’, I guess a rules lawyer could make a case that defensive strats could be used? Even then, it’s inefficient - you usually want that to apply when you’re being shot at by an army, not four infantry models, so sure, burn 2CP to deflect one of the extra hits I generated for 1CP
Re BL Warlord Trait on Discordant: that is cool and makes it viable for one of the Legions, but I’m not going to rush to add one to my Word Bearers
Re DA hulking out: not sure how useful that is for a foot-slogger manacled to a pair of foot-sloggers, who take up space in a transport (reducing his ability to hide after rapid redeployment) and make his prayer worryingly unreliable if he Warptimes away from them
lindsay40k wrote: Mecha-Serpents make 1A for each enemy model within 1” but do not restrict how you allocate those attacks
If you get swarmed by Grots, you can pick them all up and throw them at a Warboss
lol that sounds so cool! And also, LOD counts as a daemon Engine too. So, for just 1 CP, you can make the LOD reroll all hits and wounds with Daemonforge. That's scary for a guy who has so many attacks lol
So... at the risk of sounding overenthusiastic, reading the new rules in Vigilus Ablaze is deeply satisfying.
Dark Eldar / Orks / Imperial Knights releases made it hard to consistently win with Chaos. I've been experimenting with new list styles and finding so many limitations in the original Codex. There are answers to most of the big challenges in these new rules.
With the exception Land Raiders, Vindicators and Predators, every unit appears to have improved.
Most excited about the Skull Altar. If it can actually be summoned, I could see Khorne Daemon detachments complete with Bloodthirsters becoming competitive.
Even Predators can be semi decent now. Put them next to the new Chaos terrain piece Nilith Crown, that gives them a 5++ invul save. That terrain is quite big, and its aura expands. I can see fitting 3 shooty hellbrutes and 3 predators around that Crown and they will all get a 5++
Then you can actually use fire frenzy and kill shot.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Even Predators can be semi decent now. Put them next to the new Chaos terrain piece Nilith Crown, that gives them a 5++ invul save. That terrain is quite big, and its aura expands. I can see fitting 3 shooty hellbrutes and 3 predators around that Crown and they will all get a 5++
Then you can actually use fire frenzy and kill shot.
Yes. And have Abaddon standing there for full re-rolls to hit, and a Cultist screen to make it hard to charge them. I've been playing a Black Legion gunline since the start of 8th edition, anything that increases the survivability or armor is a big deal.
However, Chaos just got a lot stronger as a mid-range army through all the new detachments and combos. Chaos armor is still outgunned by Dark Eldar (and sometimes Tau), Imperial Knights still have ways to wipe them out in a single round, and Ork hordes are nearly impossible to chew through quickly enough to avoid the charge.
Would have loved to see a detachment for Chaos armor that gives them more tactical depth. Looking at the Lord Dischordant and thinking what he can do to hordes. Looking at the Skull Altar and thinking about what a Bloodletter Bomb is now going to mean. Looking at the Daemonkin Ritualists and thinking what they are going to do to Dark Eldar.
Feels like these detachments are so points efficient, there's not going to be a reason for gunlines.
Zealotry is on the DA’s new Datasheet, so it doesn’t lose synergy with Voice of Lorgar, which is something
Unit-specific prayers are a more reliable Prescience or Miasma that can provide redundancy or even stack, but need the target to be in play at the start of the battle round. That’s actually a somewhat complicated moving part:
- if your unit is arriving by reserve or disembarking, you can’t use the mini-Prescience or -1 to be hit on them that turn
- if you got first turn, you can’t give a unit -1 to be hit between moving it and your opponent’s turn, which could be annoying if you need to redeploy things
- if you lose first turn, you can give a unit -1 to be hit before the enemy shoots
The invuln aura, on the other hand, can be used the same as any other aura
Incidentally, if they’d added a re-roll on prayer attempts to the WB trait, it’d be fluffy and viable
Have you heard about the new Rotor chain cannon that our havocs can now take, Techsodalton? Its 8 shots of str 5, AP -1, D1. A havoc squad with 4 of those will be shooting 32 str 5 shots. Bring 3 havocs squads with those chain cannons and you could probably thin out just any horde out there.
The new Dark Apostle can give +1 to wound to a unit. Add on veterans of the long war, and even str 5 shots will be wounding an imperial knight at 3+.
lindsay40k wrote: The Noctolith Crown’s only Faction Keyword is CHAOS
You can’t take a CHAOS detachment in a Battle forged army
Edit: also, the Skull Altar has special rules that apply when it is summoned with Daemonic Ritual, but it lacks the Daemonic Ritual ability
I mean, your not wrong, but Jesus it's a simple oversight among all these rules. It's going to be fixed with the FAQ in 2 weeks if they are made aware of it. Just politely point it out to them. No need to thumb your nose at it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lindsay40k wrote: Mecha-Serpents make 1A for each enemy model within 1” but do not restrict how you allocate those attacks
If you get swarmed by Grots, you can pick them all up and throw them at a Warboss
That is funny
I don't often meet warbosses hanging with grots, but when I do, I throw them in his face to show him the error in his ways.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Even Predators can be semi decent now. Put them next to the new Chaos terrain piece Nilith Crown, that gives them a 5++ invul save. That terrain is quite big, and its aura expands. I can see fitting 3 shooty hellbrutes and 3 predators around that Crown and they will all get a 5++
Then you can actually use fire frenzy and kill shot.
Yes. And have Abaddon standing there for full re-rolls to hit, and a Cultist screen to make it hard to charge them. I've been playing a Black Legion gunline since the start of 8th edition, anything that increases the survivability or armor is a big deal.
However, Chaos just got a lot stronger as a mid-range army through all the new detachments and combos. Chaos armor is still outgunned by Dark Eldar (and sometimes Tau), Imperial Knights still have ways to wipe them out in a single round, and Ork hordes are nearly impossible to chew through quickly enough to avoid the charge.
Would have loved to see a detachment for Chaos armor that gives them more tactical depth. Looking at the Lord Dischordant and thinking what he can do to hordes. Looking at the Skull Altar and thinking about what a Bloodletter Bomb is now going to mean. Looking at the Daemonkin Ritualists and thinking what they are going to do to Dark Eldar.
Feels like these detachments are so points efficient, there's not going to be a reason for gunlines.
If I ever came across this castle with my triple doomscythe necrons I would blow my load immediately though 1CP to money shot your entire army for 3d3 mortal wounds would be such a niche hard counter
You know, that new red corsair strategem. Bring Abaddon and a batallion of red corsair. 2 MSU of 5 CSM and 1 max 20 man squad. Advance the 20 man squad up the field firing bolters along with Abaddon giving it immunity to morale. Then when it has been whittled down to low model count, bring it all back again, preferably in your opponent's back line ...
I mean... a 40 man cultist squad is 200 points, for 60 more points, you have a full squad of 20 CSM. And I bet 20 CSM will be a lot more resilient than 40 cultists!
techsoldaten wrote: Yes. And have Abaddon standing there for full re-rolls to hit, and a Cultist screen to make it hard to charge them. I've been playing a Black Legion gunline since the start of 8th edition, anything that increases the survivability or armor is a big deal.
However, Chaos just got a lot stronger as a mid-range army through all the new detachments and combos. Chaos armor is still outgunned by Dark Eldar (and sometimes Tau), Imperial Knights still have ways to wipe them out in a single round, and Ork hordes are nearly impossible to chew through quickly enough to avoid the charge.
Would have loved to see a detachment for Chaos armor that gives them more tactical depth. Looking at the Lord Dischordant and thinking what he can do to hordes. Looking at the Skull Altar and thinking about what a Bloodletter Bomb is now going to mean. Looking at the Daemonkin Ritualists and thinking what they are going to do to Dark Eldar.
Feels like these detachments are so points efficient, there's not going to be a reason for gunlines.
If I ever came across this castle with my triple doomscythe necrons I would blow my load immediately though 1CP to money shot your entire army for 3d3 mortal wounds would be such a niche hard counter
That would be an interesting matchup, the confidence of Necron players is delightful.
I wonder how those Doomscythes would fare against the response, 23 lascannons with full rerolls to hit? 3D3 typically will not kill a unit.
lindsay40k wrote: The Noctolith Crown’s only Faction Keyword is CHAOS
You can’t take a CHAOS detachment in a Battle forged army
I mean, your not wrong, but Jesus it's a simple oversight among all these rules. It's going to be fixed with the FAQ in 2 weeks if they are made aware of it. Just politely point it out to them. No need to thumb your nose at it.
The battle brothers rule doesn't apply to fortification detachments. No problem here
Automatically Appended Next Post: "1CP- doubles wounds characteristic of daemon engine"
Is that a real thing ?
Cos my scorpion would love that. .
lindsay40k wrote: The Noctolith Crown’s only Faction Keyword is CHAOS
You can’t take a CHAOS detachment in a Battle forged army
I mean, your not wrong, but Jesus it's a simple oversight among all these rules. It's going to be fixed with the FAQ in 2 weeks if they are made aware of it. Just politely point it out to them. No need to thumb your nose at it.
The battle brothers rule doesn't apply to fortification detachments. No problem here
Automatically Appended Next Post: "1CP- doubles wounds characteristic of daemon engine"
Is that a real thing ?
Cos my scorpion would love that. .
Probably to avoid stuff on the damage chart. Still a good Strategem though.
I think you're viewing the Lord Discordant incorrectly. He isn't a support HQ, he is an improved maulerfiend. 2+ vs 3+ is actually quite a big deal; he is fast, hits on 1+ (he is a daemon engine after all) so even his autocannon hits on a 2+ when he's moved, as well as hitting DtTFE on 5+. He is an excellent choice for an elixir, making tons of his attacks hit strength 9; if run as black legion giving him the half damage WL trait is an excellent use.
I would not bother with extensive single target survival buffs; he's 170 points and decently tough for that point total; he punches way about that weight class. He also absorbs daemonic loci; running him next to a chariot herald of slaanesh will give him advance and charge and +1 strength; easily executes first turn charges.
Yeah...I actually think you either run 1 black legion one with the half damage or you run 3. "Distraction carnifexes" as it were; they will butcher hordes (who will plink off of their 2+ armor and T6) and vehicles alike.
I'm not going to call him meta, but he doesn't need to be able to endure fire which would kill a knight to be useful. He is fast and hits very hard.
techsoldaten wrote: Yes. And have Abaddon standing there for full re-rolls to hit, and a Cultist screen to make it hard to charge them. I've been playing a Black Legion gunline since the start of 8th edition, anything that increases the survivability or armor is a big deal.
However, Chaos just got a lot stronger as a mid-range army through all the new detachments and combos. Chaos armor is still outgunned by Dark Eldar (and sometimes Tau), Imperial Knights still have ways to wipe them out in a single round, and Ork hordes are nearly impossible to chew through quickly enough to avoid the charge.
Would have loved to see a detachment for Chaos armor that gives them more tactical depth. Looking at the Lord Dischordant and thinking what he can do to hordes. Looking at the Skull Altar and thinking about what a Bloodletter Bomb is now going to mean. Looking at the Daemonkin Ritualists and thinking what they are going to do to Dark Eldar.
Feels like these detachments are so points efficient, there's not going to be a reason for gunlines.
If I ever came across this castle with my triple doomscythe necrons I would blow my load immediately though 1CP to money shot your entire army for 3d3 mortal wounds would be such a niche hard counter
That would be an interesting matchup, the confidence of Necron players is delightful.
I wonder how those Doomscythes would fare against the response, 23 lascannons with full rerolls to hit? 3D3 typically will not kill a unit.
If your somehow packing 23 las canons around abbadon and that things aura then I'm definietly going to buy you a more accurate tape measuring device and or slap the scotch out of your hands
All kidding aside I wouldn't expect them to survive if 23 las canons were still there. It's 3d3 mortals to every unit within 3" range of any point they pick, not 3d3 total It's also only 450 points facing down basically an entire army in that scenario. I think the best shot that castle would have is by using that new crippling fire strat and trying to down one of the fliers before they could pop the strat. I just thought it would be a very unusual and funny situation.
Against most armies, Lord Discordant should do alright surviving first turn with the black legion half damage trait (if that's actually true, personally it sounds too busted to be true), -1 to hit from DA prayer, and prepared position. And if you're facing something with overwhelming firepower like IG or a Raven Castellan then hiding behind LOS blocking terrain first turn is also a viable option, keeping in mind that he moves extremely fast so he should have no problem gaining lost ground. Then against if a Raven Castellan spends an entire turn plus 3CP shooting a 160pt model then that's a win as well
I think CSM's biggest issue right now is reliable chaff clearing on turn 1, we've got plenty on turn 2 now with chaingun havocs and chainaxe terminators but not turn 1. We have all these amazing combat units that want to hit those expensive units in the back but almost all of them get stopped by having 20 guardsmen parked in front of them, which means close combat at the earliest is turn 3 a lot of times. Turn 1 Tzaangor bomb might be the most reliable chaff clearing option we have as it also puts pressure on the opponent from the get-go, but 8'' re-rollable charge is still not the best odd IMO.
So it will take a while to process, but it feels like the winners here are....
Havocs. You'll want alpha legion I think, -1 to hit is too juicy to pass up unless you go full abadon gunline, which I think might end up legit, but the alpha legion move strategem is also going to be something you might like to get them into an ideal range: 24 inches on that new gun will be much nicer if you can jog forward a little. I know it is heresy, but I think the might even be worth putting two squads in a rhino for the first turn protection and superior movement. I also frankly think a full lascannon squad might be worth it with the new shoot-on-your-enemy's-first-turn strategem. They are just so capable of absorbing buffs; they are a good target for endless, prescience, veterans, rerolls...and that new gun in particular is so.
Red Corsairs: I think tide of marines and the bonus command points is really solid. The rotary cannon is boost for MSUs. I see a lot of army building starting with 20 CSM, 2x5, Huron and some other HQ.
Dark Apostate: I think I want to reserve judgement. When those prayers first came out they sounded amazing. But if he only knows the reroll hits and 1 other (plus a mark one) that's much less impressive. You need to find a unit that absorbs that buff well enough to be worth 100 points. Oblits getting an extra -1 first turn might be worth it, same for a kytan or lord of skulls. But it probably has to be a 300+ point unit to afford that tax. I actually think the walking possessed unit might be the ticket because it's one of the few that wants both options and will stay nearby the priest. I actually think the 5+ invuln save without having to spend a detachment on the gate might also have some viability if you desperately want to run shootbrutes and preds. But I think those are both outclassed by other units now.
Possessed: So....this is tough. I think there might be something to an alpha legion possessed line walking forward. MoP, Great Possessed, a summoned or allied herald, a dark apostate for the -1 to hit will actually probably get you to melee. You're going to be investing about 600~ points into this. But in exchange you have a 40 wound -3 to be hit, t4 3+ 4++ wall of meat that will hit at strength 8 with 80 attacks on average (this assumes the nurgle spell, but the slaanesh one is also fine). It is a ton to invest, but it will provide some good board control and will be nearly impossible to kill with shooting. I don't think it's a meta thing, but I do think it is a "doesn't totally suck" thing. I think it'd synergize pretty well with a pair of full strength units of plaguebearers and their typical support groups.
As described above I think the lord discordant is also a winner; he is quite frightening on his own and not trivial to kill relative to his points. He'll need to be coupled with other threats, but I think lists could make very scary uses of him.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Continuity wrote: Against most armies, Lord Discordant should do alright surviving first turn with the black legion half damage trait (if that's actually true, personally it sounds too busted to be true), -1 to hit from DA prayer, and prepared position. And if you're facing something with overwhelming firepower like IG or a Raven Castellan then hiding behind LOS blocking terrain first turn is also a viable option, keeping in mind that he moves extremely fast so he should have no problem gaining lost ground. Then against if a Raven Castellan spends an entire turn plus 3CP shooting a 160pt model then that's a win as well
I think CSM's biggest issue right now is reliable chaff clearing on turn 1, we've got plenty on turn 2 now with chaingun havocs and chainaxe terminators but not turn 1. We have all these amazing combat units that want to hit those expensive units in the back but almost all of them get stopped by having 20 guardsmen parked in front of them, which means close combat at the earliest is turn 3 a lot of times. Turn 1 Tzaangor bomb might be the most reliable chaff clearing option we have as it also puts pressure on the opponent from the get-go, but 8'' re-rollable charge is still not the best odd IMO.
I think havocs are the answer there. Start in a rhino, pop two units out. That is 64 s5 ap -1 shots before endless or any other support. Byebye screen.
A 10 man chainaxe/combi bolter slaanesh squad of alpha legion termy boyos sounds pretty meaty. Walk them forward (warptime if you need more movement/stratagem) and shoot 40 shots with veterans active. Then fire again. Throw in any number of other buffs like +1 to hit and a lord for 2+ re-rolling 1s to hit at s4 with +1 to wound. Throw in a 5+++ an an easy -2 to hit and you have a really angry unit that is going to obliterate any chaff and even threaten harder target through pure weight of fire. They are all in one easy package to buff and protect all the while being terminators and not terrible in melee.
So out of all of this stuff i still don't see an answer to 3 vindicares just shooting our buff units dead and the army falling back to like its always been. Anyone find an answer to the 3 amigos and their chr / -2 to hit while in cover bs?
Azuza001 wrote: So out of all of this stuff i still don't see an answer to 3 vindicares just shooting our buff units dead and the army falling back to like its always been. Anyone find an answer to the 3 amigos and their chr / -2 to hit while in cover bs?
Deepstriking bloodletters/warp talons to chop them to pieces. Hiding characters behing terrain or a rhino.
Psychic powers that can target characters such as infernal gaze.
Taking big characters on the back of daemon engines/saemon princes that generally don't worry about their str 5 weapons.
There's no real answer to 3 vindicares in CSM that I can think of, assuming your opponent knows how to set up their army. That's a particular shame for the dank apostle, as his prayer triggers at the beginning of movement, so he can't even hide in a transport, jump out and at least have one good round. Unfortunately I think Daemon princes are a pretty good answer to vindicares, as their toughness and lack of infantry keyword means they can be relatively blasé about them.
Azuza001 wrote: So out of all of this stuff i still don't see an answer to 3 vindicares just shooting our buff units dead and the army falling back to like its always been. Anyone find an answer to the 3 amigos and their chr / -2 to hit while in cover bs?
Deepstriking bloodletters/warp talons to chop them to pieces. Hiding characters behing terrain or a rhino.
Psychic powers that can target characters such as infernal gaze.
Taking big characters on the back of daemon engines/saemon princes that generally don't worry about their str 5 weapons.
They're a pain in the arse but not unplayable.
Deep strike units of 3x flamers, 3d6 -1 ap flamer hits should do it. And its super cheap!
Only competition for horde killing might be heavy bolter rapier battery. you can have 2 for the exact same 152 pts.
It's giving you 24 shots rather than 32 but you have 8 T5 wounds and the range will keep you safer.
No endless cacophony/votlw etc on the rapier...
Azuza001 wrote: So out of all of this stuff i still don't see an answer to 3 vindicares just shooting our buff units dead and the army falling back to like its always been. Anyone find an answer to the 3 amigos and their chr / -2 to hit while in cover bs?
Deepstriking bloodletters/warp talons to chop them to pieces. Hiding characters behing terrain or a rhino.
Psychic powers that can target characters such as infernal gaze.
Taking big characters on the back of daemon engines/saemon princes that generally don't worry about their str 5 weapons.
They're a pain in the arse but not unplayable.
Deep strike units of 3x flamers, 3d6 -1 ap flamer hits should do it. And its super cheap!
This is why I think that summoning has such potential, leave a few points off the table and bring what you need!
Azuza001 wrote: So out of all of this stuff i still don't see an answer to 3 vindicares just shooting our buff units dead and the army falling back to like its always been. Anyone find an answer to the 3 amigos and their chr / -2 to hit while in cover bs?
Deepstriking bloodletters/warp talons to chop them to pieces. Hiding characters behing terrain or a rhino.
Psychic powers that can target characters such as infernal gaze.
Taking big characters on the back of daemon engines/saemon princes that generally don't worry about their str 5 weapons.
They're a pain in the arse but not unplayable.
Deep strike units of 3x flamers, 3d6 -1 ap flamer hits should do it. And its super cheap!
This is why I think that summoning has such potential, leave a few points off the table and bring what you need!
You can’t Summon bloodletters with the banner of 3D6 charge
Flamers would be interesting if we had a mobile summoner. MoP has to walk up to the Vindicares on foot, and everyone else has to stand still for a turn. Neither are particularly appealing.
lindsay40k wrote: You can’t Summon bloodletters with the banner of 3D6 charge
Flamers would be interesting if we had a mobile summoner. MoP has to walk up to the Vindicares on foot, and everyone else has to stand still for a turn. Neither are particularly appealing.
You only have to get him within 24" if you stick him in a rhino, use warptime, forward operatives etc it should be easily possible to get him there unscathed.
I think fiends, horrors, exalted flaners and plaguebearers would all find their uses too in a summoning list. You could even drop a soul grinder in someone's face if you needed a big distraction!
If the vindies are just sitting there with no wrap, then there's plenty of things that could toast them. I mean, even warp talons could do it, with their new 7" charge! But I don't know how many times you're going to see that in competitive play.
for my Emperors children im now tempted to split my force
1 battalion - EC fill with my oblits, havocs and others stuff
small detachment of flawless host- Daemon prince with wings and all the toys as warlord, with a party bus rhino next to him full of either CC kitted chosen or Possessed and greater possessed, master of possession might hitch a ride aswell. really goofy party bus 5 possessed-2 greater possessed-master of possession-1 priest+1 very uncomfortable disciple surrounded by monsters.
I also think possibly just sticking 5 havocs in a rhino + 5 basic marines might be good for first turn defence, rhino goes up and dumps out havocs turn one who can go do their thing then drives off to put the 5 marines on an objective somewhere to sit and chill using bolter discipline.
So, with Terminators being considerably cheaper and able to equip chainaxes (for presumably 1pt), how are you planing to run yours and for what purpose? Termicide?
Darkseid wrote: So, with Terminators being considerably cheaper and able to equip chainaxes (for presumably 1pt), how are you planing to run yours and for what purpose? Termicide?
Regardless of how competitive (or not) it might be, I like the idea of deploying 10 with just Chainaxes and Combi-Bolters in Alpha Legion colours, using the stratagem to give them a free 9" pre-game move if necessary, and just going to town on enemy chaff while my real melee threats move in for the kill. The Bolter Discipline rule ensures I get the full 40 shots at 24", they can defend themselves decently in a melee, and for less than 300 points that unit is pretty darned hard to shift. Having the utility to Deep Strike depending on the match-up is the icing on the cake; if I've got no other good targets for Veterans of the Long War, they'll really start to dish out the punishment with that chucked on. With all the anti-tank and high AP firepower I'll have elsewhere in my list, I'm not sure if taking upgraded combi-weapons or any of the heavy options will be necessary.
The new codex, the stuff in Shadowspear (particularly the Master of Possessions) and Vigilus Ablaze gives Chaos Marines a ridiculous amount of worthwhile new options, I'm sure that the "meta-list" will eventually come out but at the very least I can run all the new stuff - even basic Chaos Marines! - in an army list and expect to have decent results if I build towards some of the crazy synergies on offer. The big question is how many Lords Discordant I'm willing to buy, and whether I want to spring for Baleflamers on them
Azuza001 wrote: So out of all of this stuff i still don't see an answer to 3 vindicares just shooting our buff units dead and the army falling back to like its always been. Anyone find an answer to the 3 amigos and their chr / -2 to hit while in cover bs?
Deepstriking bloodletters/warp talons to chop them to pieces. Hiding characters behing terrain or a rhino.
Psychic powers that can target characters such as infernal gaze.
Taking big characters on the back of daemon engines/saemon princes that generally don't worry about their str 5 weapons.
They're a pain in the arse but not unplayable.
Yep. They are a pain. But we can also use line of sight. Vindicare cannot shoot what it can't see. I mentioned also that the Lord of Skulls is suitably big and blocky such that you can hide a character or two behind its huge bulk as it is making its way up the board. And daemon princes and that new Lord of DIscordant have T6, so its going to be tough for a vindicare to wound them.
Darkseid wrote: So, with Terminators being considerably cheaper and able to equip chainaxes (for presumably 1pt), how are you planing to run yours and for what purpose? Termicide?
Regardless of how competitive (or not) it might be, I like the idea of deploying 10 with just Chainaxes and Combi-Bolters in Alpha Legion colours, using the stratagem to give them a free 9" pre-game move if necessary, and just going to town on enemy chaff while my real melee threats move in for the kill. The Bolter Discipline rule ensures I get the full 40 shots at 24", they can defend themselves decently in a melee, and for less than 300 points that unit is pretty darned hard to shift. Having the utility to Deep Strike depending on the match-up is the icing on the cake; if I've got no other good targets for Veterans of the Long War, they'll really start to dish out the punishment with that chucked on. With all the anti-tank and high AP firepower I'll have elsewhere in my list, I'm not sure if taking upgraded combi-weapons or any of the heavy options will be necessary.
The new codex, the stuff in Shadowspear (particularly the Master of Possessions) and Vigilus Ablaze gives Chaos Marines a ridiculous amount of worthwhile new options, I'm sure that the "meta-list" will eventually come out but at the very least I can run all the new stuff - even basic Chaos Marines! - in an army list and expect to have decent results if I build towards some of the crazy synergies on offer. The big question is how many Lords Discordant I'm willing to buy, and whether I want to spring for Baleflamers on them
This! I love your way of thinking. Black legion can get a lot of milege out of terminators and I think being able to bring chainaxes really makes a huge difference now. You can go 4 with chainaxe and 1 with a powerfist and the whole squad is probably just as good in melee as when it was previously all power axes. And going combi bolters with the new bolter discipline is good. And they are cheap enough bulking out on a 10 man unit makes an interesting distraction carnefix, although if you go that route, then you definitely should buff it somewhat.
Even deep striking two 5 man termi units offer a great way to pressure the opponent now. The key thing is that now, we have an amazingly efficient gun to sweep chaff aside. Namely that reaper chain cannon. So, obliterating all the chaff in the way is now a very distinct possibility. With no chaff left to bubble wrap, small cheap terminator squads deep striking down at key points to apply pressure is very cool and thematic. Its like my terminators are teleporting in to deliver that decisive killing blow as the noose closes on my opponent.
As an aside, you know, we have all been fixated on that lord of discordant. But a flying BL daemon prince that takes that warlord trait that halves all damage is pretty scary too. It is screened while flying up the board, and even when it is loose amongst enemy ranks, it has effectively 16W.
Another thing I just thought of. Host raptorial special detachment applies to all jump pack units. Our lords can take thunder hammers now I believe. Take a supreme command detachment with 3 jump pack lords with thunderhammers. When they deep strike in, they now all have a 7 inch charge with that host raptorial warlord trait? hmmm... tasty. We may not even need raptors or warptalons at this stage if we can have our very own version of chaos smash face. lol
All these different combos and such are making me realise one thing. We need command points, a lot of them. So the spiky 17 is going to be a must take in competitive environments I believe. I am not sure about taking a max squad of 20 at this stage though. It really sounds cool, but honestly at this stage, I think a CSM list gunning for competitive is going to have too many scary combo threats for your opponent to worry about trying to eliminate a 20 man squad of CSM. He has to worry about those 3 squads of havocs with reaper chain cannons, he has to worry about that lord of discordant and maybe friends charging his lines, then he has to worry about potential deep strikes in by raptorial hosts, or terminators, or even chaos smash captains. Or that buffed posssessed charging up the field, or even berserkers in Rhinos. (because the chaff is all gone). The last thing he will be thinking about is to kill off that 20 man CSM squad, which can be brought back with 3 CP anyway.
BTW, can a normal CSM squad take that reaper chain cannon? someone confirm? If so, that means 3 MSU squads of CSM can take 3. that's pretty efficient too.
So I mean, I think the honest answer is that pretty much no army has an easy way to deal with vindicares. They are probably going to be as douchey a thing as castelians are. Castelians warp the meta such that most vehicles aren't worthwhile, not only due to their own antiarmor but also the level of antiarmor the rest of the world then needs to bring. Likewise, if triple vindicare becomes meta, it will eliminate yet another fun thing; character lynchpins. This probably hurts eldar the most....sucks because whether or not you like eldar, they're just about the only thing which beats imperial soup.
For chaos? Meh. I think dark apostates will be an option, but I really don't think they'll be critical; 100 points to give a unit -1 to hit really requires a very good unit. Lords don't get run a lot. Sorcs are vulnerable, but probably not as vital for us because we have tough psyker options. I'd say run lords discordant, abby and daemon princes in HQs...all things you'd want to do anyways...and be kosher. The bigger pain in the butt is actually him shooting the daemon support characters, particularly the nurgle ones.
I do hope triple vindicare does not become meta. Narrowing pool of viable army builds is bad planning.
So has it been stated yet that there was literally an FAQ saying that says buildings don't count against the rules for keywords? It's perfectly fine to bring a detachment for the new building, just like how the bastion can be brought. This is nothing new, this was an FAQ from like, a year ago.
Was something changed with the vindicare that I missed? Dude's been around since the index days and I've never seen him as a serious problem. He was always the best sniper but being the best of a bad bunch doesn't make the cut for a list.
Arachnofiend wrote: Was something changed with the vindicare that I missed? Dude's been around since the index days and I've never seen him as a serious problem. He was always the best sniper but being the best of a bad bunch doesn't make the cut for a list.
You must have missed where Assassins got a huge boost in power from a White Dwarf index. They all got strats and everything, and Imperial players can just leave 85 points out of their list and spend a CP to choose which Assassin they want at the beginning of the game (after they see the opponent's list). Vindicare might be the best one.
I'm finding it really hard to decide what HQs to go with. Dark Apostles, Masters of Possession, Sorcerers, Chaos Lords, Daemon Princes, Lords Discordant all seem like must-takes for different reasons now. Having so much choice now means you've really got to figure out what list theme you're going for. I almost don't even want to run cheap HQs like the Greater Possessed or Master of Executions just to fill that slot in detachments because the other ones all provide so much synergy, especially with the specialist detachments. Going Black Legion with Abaddon is also a very alluring prospect. Decisions, decisions!
Arachnofiend wrote: Was something changed with the vindicare that I missed? Dude's been around since the index days and I've never seen him as a serious problem. He was always the best sniper but being the best of a bad bunch doesn't make the cut for a list.
Yeah, they are op now. One Vindicare, if lucky can snipe and kill a 4W hero in one turn. The problem is if players bring three of those things. That's when they can even bring down any hero, regardless of stats within one or two turns. One is still ok to face. But when you have three... that's when things start to break down. They are also hard countered by knight lists. I mean, good luck sniping 24W T8 knights to death... lol
The problem is they change the way you play. Characters are forced into hiding behind line of sight, so they cannot provide their aura buffs. Trying to take out a Vindicare often requires a commitment of higher than the 85 points that the Vindicare is. Yet, if you ignore the Vindicare, over 5 or 6 turns, it can make more than its points back if it kills two characters. And three Vindicare ... may end up killing all of your characters. BTW, trying to shoot a Vindicare to death is kinda a futile exercise. It has character rules anyway, so its unlikely to be that exposed in front. That sniper rifle has range of 72 inches after all...
Competitive 40k is just ... not fun. People bring lists which are not fun to play against. Oh well, We can bring cypher and have our own Vindicares. I suppose it might be interesting to have a Vindicare vs Vindicare war against such people and see how they like having a taste of their own medicine. lol I just thought of another relatively simple way to sort of counter Vindicare. Have your heroes in Rhinos. They can't shoot stuff in Rhinos. And if you come out of the Rhinos and are in combat already, then they can't shoot you either because you are in combat. The other way is to take Raptorial host and have your heroes all in jump packs. Deep strike in, charge the Vindicares on a 7 inch charge and kill them though the old fashioned way. (I am assuming raptorial host really works on all jump pack units including jump pack heroes.). Of course, this requires that you kill off whatever possible bubble wrap that the imperium player might have before you deep strike in. The vindicare has a 1 in 6 chance of hitting you on overwatch. If he fails that overwatch, and you make the charge, your jump pack lord will probably paste him in close combat. (probably). Of course, the problem is if you are facing 3 VIndicare, and opponent is not dumb enough to put them all in one place, but spreads them out apart. Your warlord trait from raptorial host can only affect one area...
Sigh, this bring me back to my original point. One Vindicare can be handled. Three Vindicares will involve so much changing of your list and playing in a very specific way. If done right, opponent has wasted 255 points bringing his 3 Vindicare which did nothing. Yet, if you ignore that and just play a normal list, there is a very high chance those 3 vindicares kill far more than their 255 points in characters.
@Eldenfirefly : that's why you should always bring a skewed list in competitive play. Lord Discordant (Autocannon) with 3 Defilers and Renegade knight as backfield, 2 Lord Discordant (Baleflamer) with 2 Maulerfiends and 2 Venomcrawler won't care about these Vindicare. Not sayin' this is competitive, but at least it's a gatekeeper.
I think even single Vindicare will become meta anyway because of that stupidly cheap Shoot again strat, so we have to take them in consideration when list building.
Nym wrote: @Eldenfirefly : that's why you should always bring a skewed list in competitive play. Lord Discordant (Autocannon) with 3 Defilers and Renegade knight as backfield, 2 Lord Discordant (Baleflamer) with 2 Maulerfiends and 2 Venomcrawler won't care about these Vindicare. Not sayin' this is competitive, but at least it's a gatekeeper.
I think even single Vindicare will become meta anyway because of that stupidly cheap Shoot again strat, so we have to take them in consideration when list building.
I feel like the whole summon vindicare for 1 Cp will gatekeep alot of armies that relied on charachters before.
Nym wrote: @Eldenfirefly : that's why you should always bring a skewed list in competitive play. Lord Discordant (Autocannon) with 3 Defilers and Renegade knight as backfield, 2 Lord Discordant (Baleflamer) with 2 Maulerfiends and 2 Venomcrawler won't care about these Vindicare. Not sayin' this is competitive, but at least it's a gatekeeper.
I think even single Vindicare will become meta anyway because of that stupidly cheap Shoot again strat, so we have to take them in consideration when list building.
I feel like the whole summon vindicare for 1 Cp will gatekeep alot of armies that relied on charachters before.
Lots of armies rely on characters. Its built into the detachment system. Just about any detachment requires a character. The only armies that don't rely on characters are knight armies, and that's because their knights ARE the characters. We will see, if they are too strong, at some point they will get nerfed by GW. Even imperium soup is vulnerable to triple vindicare. I mean, look at all the 3W, 4W characters they run.
Nym wrote: @Eldenfirefly : that's why you should always bring a skewed list in competitive play. Lord Discordant (Autocannon) with 3 Defilers and Renegade knight as backfield, 2 Lord Discordant (Baleflamer) with 2 Maulerfiends and 2 Venomcrawler won't care about these Vindicare. Not sayin' this is competitive, but at least it's a gatekeeper.
I think even single Vindicare will become meta anyway because of that stupidly cheap Shoot again strat, so we have to take them in consideration when list building.
I feel like the whole summon vindicare for 1 Cp will gatekeep alot of armies that relied on charachters before.
Lots of armies rely on characters. Its built into the detachment system. Just about any detachment requires a character. The only armies that don't rely on characters are knight armies, and that's because their knights ARE the characters. We will see, if they are too strong, at some point they will get nerfed by GW. Even imperium soup is vulnerable to triple vindicare. I mean, look at all the 3W, 4W characters they run.
With rely i mean actively rely, not just fielding as a tax.
That said hopefully they wont be as devastating.
techsoldaten wrote: Yes. And have Abaddon standing there for full re-rolls to hit, and a Cultist screen to make it hard to charge them. I've been playing a Black Legion gunline since the start of 8th edition, anything that increases the survivability or armor is a big deal.
However, Chaos just got a lot stronger as a mid-range army through all the new detachments and combos. Chaos armor is still outgunned by Dark Eldar (and sometimes Tau), Imperial Knights still have ways to wipe them out in a single round, and Ork hordes are nearly impossible to chew through quickly enough to avoid the charge.
Would have loved to see a detachment for Chaos armor that gives them more tactical depth. Looking at the Lord Dischordant and thinking what he can do to hordes. Looking at the Skull Altar and thinking about what a Bloodletter Bomb is now going to mean. Looking at the Daemonkin Ritualists and thinking what they are going to do to Dark Eldar.
Feels like these detachments are so points efficient, there's not going to be a reason for gunlines.
If I ever came across this castle with my triple doomscythe necrons I would blow my load immediately though 1CP to money shot your entire army for 3d3 mortal wounds would be such a niche hard counter
That would be an interesting matchup, the confidence of Necron players is delightful.
I wonder how those Doomscythes would fare against the response, 23 lascannons with full rerolls to hit? 3D3 typically will not kill a unit.
If your somehow packing 23 las canons around abbadon and that things aura then I'm definietly going to buy you a more accurate tape measuring device and or slap the scotch out of your hands
All kidding aside I wouldn't expect them to survive if 23 las canons were still there. It's 3d3 mortals to every unit within 3" range of any point they pick, not 3d3 total It's also only 450 points facing down basically an entire army in that scenario. I think the best shot that castle would have is by using that new crippling fire strat and trying to down one of the fliers before they could pop the strat. I just thought it would be a very unusual and funny situation.
Hehe... you would not be the first to do that. But it's not hard to deploy so that Abaddon's aura affects 30x CSMs, 2x Helbrutes, 3x Predators, 30x Cultists, a Heldrake and a DP (maxed out on lascannons.) And it leads to many funny games.
Dark Eldar, Imperial Knights and Orks pretty much ruined the Black Legion gunline I've been playing since the start of 8th edition. While I see a few things in the new releases that could make it viable again, I've been exploring mid-range lists for a while now and see more potential in the new detachments.
The Host Raptoral, Daemonkin Ritualists, Soulforged Pack and Legion of Skulls detachments all appeal to me. It's all still new and I'm working out the various combinations that can be fielded. Going to need to see points before I know which way I'm going.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anyone thought about the fact the Fallen have the Imperial keyword?
Wondering if this is a backdoor to allowing us to take Assassins.
I tried to buff my Oblits as best I could. So I made them Nurgle, brought a Gnarlmaw along (thus giving them +2 cover save, effectively ignoring the first 2 points of AP of any weapon). I parked a cheap Lord with them and had my MoP cast Cursed Earth and Infernal Power on them. A second Sorcerer cast Prescience on them.
They now had a 0+/4++, hit on 2s, re-rolling 1s to hit and wound as well as being able to fall back and still shoot/charge. They destroyed a unit each round! First turn they took out a Ravager, second turn they destroyed his Voidraven, third turn they destroyed a Raider.
Yes that is a lot of points sunken into this unit. But all of those parts also do something for the rest of my army. The MoP also buffed by Daemon Engines. The Chaos Lord also helped out my Plague Marines that were nearby. The Sorcerer also had Warp Time as a second power and used it to sling my Defiler across the board etc.
I have to say that it was very fun to play them that way and surprisingly viable. They have their old point costs in the new Codex. That has to be a typo. But if it isn't the Newblits are probably too stronk.
Has anyone thought about the fact the Fallen have the Imperial keyword?
Wondering if this is a backdoor to allowing us to take Assassins.
It was discussed 6(?) pages back. The consensus was that GW would faq that it couldn't be done. It's a pretty nice option though, but if it does get faq'd it'll be an annoying waste of time and money!
Please don’t pin y’all hopes - and base y’all near-future purchases - on this shaky loophole. If you’ve already got Fallen and a Vindicare, knock yourself out. But don’t drop a hundred quid on this
> a lucky Vindicare can kill a support character
Luck don’t come into it. Budget a command reroll and killing a 4w cheerleader is his default - and the CP will usually get reimbursed by the Vindicare Stratagem.
‘Lucky’ to a Vindicare is killing a support character AND a smash Lord in the same turn and then breaking even on CP.
So with cultists losing legion traits and apparently going down to max squads of 30, is their price also going back down to 4? Because I feel like theyre gutting our one good troop choice just to internally make the other choice seem better.
Hmmm, I got a question. Can the same chaos lord be nominated for more than one specialist detachment? It just means he gains two keywords right?
Like, can I nominate a chao lord to be part of Devastation Battery detachment, and then I nominate him again to be part of say raptorial host detachment? So, he gains two keywords right? I don't need to have two separate lords for this right?
vaklor4 wrote: So with cultists losing legion traits and apparently going down to max squads of 30, is their price also going back down to 4? Because I feel like theyre gutting our one good troop choice just to internally make the other choice seem better.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmmm, I got a question. Can the same chaos lord be nominated for more than one specialist detachment? It just means he gains two keywords right?
Like, can I nominate a chao lord to be part of Devastation Battery detachment, and then I nominate him again to be part of say raptorial host detachment? So, he gains two keywords right? I don't need to have two separate lords for this right?
No, you dont nominate units you nominate detachments. And a unit cant be part of 2 detachments
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmmm, I got a question. Can the same chaos lord be nominated for more than one specialist detachment? It just means he gains two keywords right?
Like, can I nominate a chao lord to be part of Devastation Battery detachment, and then I nominate him again to be part of say raptorial host detachment? So, he gains two keywords right? I don't need to have two separate lords for this right?
No, you dont nominate units you nominate detachments. And a unit cant be part of 2 detachments
I think the substance of the question put is ‘can a detachment, and thereby all the units in it, be given two Specialist Detachment upgrades?’
It’s an interesting one, I’ve been ruminating on trying to get a Brigade up and running again - and that could quite conceivably have Warp Talons and Havocs and Obliterators in it
techsoldaten wrote: Yes. And have Abaddon standing there for full re-rolls to hit, and a Cultist screen to make it hard to charge them. I've been playing a Black Legion gunline since the start of 8th edition, anything that increases the survivability or armor is a big deal.
However, Chaos just got a lot stronger as a mid-range army through all the new detachments and combos. Chaos armor is still outgunned by Dark Eldar (and sometimes Tau), Imperial Knights still have ways to wipe them out in a single round, and Ork hordes are nearly impossible to chew through quickly enough to avoid the charge.
Would have loved to see a detachment for Chaos armor that gives them more tactical depth. Looking at the Lord Dischordant and thinking what he can do to hordes. Looking at the Skull Altar and thinking about what a Bloodletter Bomb is now going to mean. Looking at the Daemonkin Ritualists and thinking what they are going to do to Dark Eldar.
Feels like these detachments are so points efficient, there's not going to be a reason for gunlines.
If I ever came across this castle with my triple doomscythe necrons I would blow my load immediately though 1CP to money shot your entire army for 3d3 mortal wounds would be such a niche hard counter
That would be an interesting matchup, the confidence of Necron players is delightful.
I wonder how those Doomscythes would fare against the response, 23 lascannons with full rerolls to hit? 3D3 typically will not kill a unit.
If your somehow packing 23 las canons around abbadon and that things aura then I'm definietly going to buy you a more accurate tape measuring device and or slap the scotch out of your hands
All kidding aside I wouldn't expect them to survive if 23 las canons were still there. It's 3d3 mortals to every unit within 3" range of any point they pick, not 3d3 total It's also only 450 points facing down basically an entire army in that scenario. I think the best shot that castle would have is by using that new crippling fire strat and trying to down one of the fliers before they could pop the strat. I just thought it would be a very unusual and funny situation.
Hehe... you would not be the first to do that. But it's not hard to deploy so that Abaddon's aura affects 30x CSMs, 2x Helbrutes, 3x Predators, 30x Cultists, a Heldrake and a DP (maxed out on lascannons.) And it leads to many funny games.
Dark Eldar, Imperial Knights and Orks pretty much ruined the Black Legion gunline I've been playing since the start of 8th edition. While I see a few things in the new releases that could make it viable again, I've been exploring mid-range lists for a while now and see more potential in the new detachments.
The Host Raptoral, Daemonkin Ritualists, Soulforged Pack and Legion of Skulls detachments all appeal to me. It's all still new and I'm working out the various combinations that can be fielded. Going to need to see points before I know which way I'm going.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anyone thought about the fact the Fallen have the Imperial keyword?
Wondering if this is a backdoor to allowing us to take Assassins.
Hey man I play black legion too, I have about 15K points worth lol. I know you can pack tons around abby, I just meant it would start to get hard to also pack everyone around the Nocktalith crown because that was what was being discussed before Thats one basket packed with a lot of bread
In regard to assassins, GW failed miserably again when they didn't make each assassin unique. But I am optimistic they might make that very alteration for matched play. It's rare seeing any assassins, it's unicorn rare seeing an execution force with one of each. Your almost more likely to see the Emperor himself then seeing triple of any of the assassins. That said, they will be annoying regardless, but you just need to accept it. The game is constantly throwing wrenches at everyone with each release. Put your character behind a tank or terrain. If you play in a meta with bad terrain try bringing a bastion with you, it's more appealing now that the crown is also available and the Red-17 can get CP's easily from less detachments.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Was it mentioned if Apostles have to pick a prayer in their sheet, or do they just know all of them and pick for the battle round? (excluding god specific of course)
So at this point, I think I may start relying on my demons from my demon codex to be the brunt of my 'troop choices'. 3 blocks of 10 cultists for battalion, maybe a pink or bloodletter bomb, but hell if im ever playing big squads of cultists or CSM in any capacity at this point. I'm astounded by how much Cultists are getting nerfed left and right considering they weren't even a big issue anymore.
vaklor4 wrote: So at this point, I think I may start relying on my demons from my demon codex to be the brunt of my 'troop choices'. 3 blocks of 10 cultists for battalion, maybe a pink or bloodletter bomb, but hell if im ever playing big squads of cultists or CSM in any capacity at this point. I'm astounded by how much Cultists are getting nerfed left and right considering they weren't even a big issue anymore.
Yeah, the age of the cultist blob has come to an end. It's a shame.
detachment 3- Flawless host
Daemon prince- 2 talons, wings, elixer, warlord + the 3 attacks on 6s trait and prescience
chaos lord jump pack- thunderhammer //// (eidolon model)
5 Basic terminators with icon
5 chosen with icon + all lightning claws
1 greater possessed
Rhino
at the moment list is 2019 on battlescribe but with the discounts to termies should be fine.
/// are things I might drop or swap out as needed to adjust for points.
plan is prince and the chosen party bus ride up one side, depending on match up ill deploy oblits on the board and just use defensive positions + the return fire command point if im going second. The prince + chosen and greater possessed party bomb will be quite mean if it gets into CC.
vaklor4 wrote: So at this point, I think I may start relying on my demons from my demon codex to be the brunt of my 'troop choices'. 3 blocks of 10 cultists for battalion, maybe a pink or bloodletter bomb, but hell if im ever playing big squads of cultists or CSM in any capacity at this point. I'm astounded by how much Cultists are getting nerfed left and right considering they weren't even a big issue anymore.
Yeah, the age of the cultist blob has come to an end. It's a shame.
We still have Renegades and Heretics. They still have a Commisar equivalent I think so it isn't like they're gonna just run away.
I think the substance of the question put is ‘can a detachment, and thereby all the units in it, be given two Specialist Detachment upgrades?’
It’s an interesting one, I’ve been ruminating on trying to get a Brigade up and running again - and that could quite conceivably have Warp Talons and Havocs and Obliterators in it
No, you can only apply the Specialist Detachment strat once to any given detachment; see here: link to leaked image.
On a side note, the reaper chaincannon is included in the heavy weapons list. So CSM units have access to it, too. A nice little add-on if you are going to run the heretic 17.
detachment 3- Flawless host
Daemon prince- 2 talons, wings, elixer, warlord + the 3 attacks on 6s trait and prescience
chaos lord jump pack- thunderhammer //// (eidolon model)
5 Basic terminators with icon
5 chosen with icon + all lightning claws
1 greater possessed
Rhino
at the moment list is 2019 on battlescribe but with the discounts to termies should be fine.
/// are things I might drop or swap out as needed to adjust for points.
plan is prince and the chosen party bus ride up one side, depending on match up ill deploy oblits on the board and just use defensive positions + the return fire command point if im going second. The prince + chosen and greater possessed party bomb will be quite mean if it gets into CC.
Love the list. Just a quick thought as I've been confronted similarly that it might be safer to mix the gattling gun havoks and the lascannon havocs to prevent an opponent from targeting down the bigger threat. Since everything has split fire in 8th so might be better.
detachment 3- Flawless host
Daemon prince- 2 talons, wings, elixer, warlord + the 3 attacks on 6s trait and prescience
chaos lord jump pack- thunderhammer //// (eidolon model)
5 Basic terminators with icon
5 chosen with icon + all lightning claws
1 greater possessed
Rhino
at the moment list is 2019 on battlescribe but with the discounts to termies should be fine.
/// are things I might drop or swap out as needed to adjust for points.
plan is prince and the chosen party bus ride up one side, depending on match up ill deploy oblits on the board and just use defensive positions + the return fire command point if im going second. The prince + chosen and greater possessed party bomb will be quite mean if it gets into CC.
Might be worth swapping out the Chosen for 2 more Greater Possessed. They still fit in the party bus, you lose 6 attacks and re-rolling to wound in CC but you hit better (especially with the DP around), improve S and considerably improve any damage caused by hits that get through. You also gain 5 wounds and everyone gets 5++. Those GPs kick ass.
As to Havocs with mixed loadouts - I think I'd prefer to be able to focus the Punishing Volley strat on one type of unit instead of splitting fire to account for the different weapon types.
Azuza001 wrote: So out of all of this stuff i still don't see an answer to 3 vindicares just shooting our buff units dead and the army falling back to like its always been. Anyone find an answer to the 3 amigos and their chr / -2 to hit while in cover bs?
Deepstriking bloodletters/warp talons to chop them to pieces. Hiding characters behing terrain or a rhino.
Psychic powers that can target characters such as infernal gaze.
Taking big characters on the back of daemon engines/saemon princes that generally don't worry about their str 5 weapons.
They're a pain in the arse but not unplayable.
Deep strike units of 3x flamers, 3d6 -1 ap flamer hits should do it. And its super cheap!
hardly can happen, average 9 hits about 4 wound and vindicare save at 4++ so more of less couple of wounds, then flamers are erased
Azuza001 wrote: So out of all of this stuff i still don't see an answer to 3 vindicares just shooting our buff units dead and the army falling back to like its always been. Anyone find an answer to the 3 amigos and their chr / -2 to hit while in cover bs?
Deepstriking bloodletters/warp talons to chop them to pieces. Hiding characters behing terrain or a rhino.
Psychic powers that can target characters such as infernal gaze.
Taking big characters on the back of daemon engines/saemon princes that generally don't worry about their str 5 weapons.
They're a pain in the arse but not unplayable.
Deep strike units of 3x flamers, 3d6 -1 ap flamer hits should do it. And its super cheap!
hardly can happen, average 9 hits about 4 wound and vindicare save at 4++ so more of less couple of wounds, then flamers are erased
10.5 hits
Anywhere from 5.25 to 8.75 wounds (from S4 at worst, to S5 +1 Wound at best)
So that's 2.625 at worst, 4.375 at best.
Edit: Imma go to Anydice. Assuming 10 hits, you have the following odds of killing him:
7.81% chance of killing him at S4
21.31% chance of killing him at S5 or +1 Wound
40.92% chance of killing him at S5 and +1 Wound
blood reaper wrote: Do we have any idea if the Alpha Legion have lost the -1 to hit at over 12 inches? (And thus been designated to the trash can of the meta).
Shouldn't think so - the other legions have all kept their traits so far. Chaos Cultists no longer qualify for the legion traits, though, as far as we know.
Since lords can take thunderhammers now I'm wondering if we can make a smash captain of our own. Flawless host had potential and even just a Khorne Lord with the fight twice Strategem is a good bet. Thoughts?
Please don’t pin y’all hopes - and base y’all near-future purchases - on this shaky loophole. If you’ve already got Fallen and a Vindicare, knock yourself out. But don’t drop a hundred quid on this
> a lucky Vindicare can kill a support character
Luck don’t come into it. Budget a command reroll and killing a 4w cheerleader is his default - and the CP will usually get reimbursed by the Vindicare Stratagem.
‘Lucky’ to a Vindicare is killing a support character AND a smash Lord in the same turn and then breaking even on CP.
I think the maths is seriously off here. I've played against new vindicares a few times and they're not that scary.
If they're shooting at a sorcerer/MOP/DA, not in cover, they're only wounding just over half (.57) of the time. Doing on adverage 3.06 wounds when they do. 1.74 wounds on adverage when they're in the open, 1.4 when in cover and 0 when you're out of line of sight. Obviously a reroll works both ways but you it would only add a little extra extra potency.
I think culexus is much more threatening, especially to a psyker heavy list. Especially with the fight last strat.
Azuza001 wrote: So out of all of this stuff i still don't see an answer to 3 vindicares just shooting our buff units dead and the army falling back to like its always been. Anyone find an answer to the 3 amigos and their chr / -2 to hit while in cover bs?
Deepstriking bloodletters/warp talons to chop them to pieces. Hiding characters behing terrain or a rhino.
Psychic powers that can target characters such as infernal gaze.
Taking big characters on the back of daemon engines/saemon princes that generally don't worry about their str 5 weapons.
They're a pain in the arse but not unplayable.
Deep strike units of 3x flamers, 3d6 -1 ap flamer hits should do it. And its super cheap!
hardly can happen, average 9 hits about 4 wound and vindicare save at 4++ so more of less couple of wounds, then flamers are erased
10.5 hits
Anywhere from 5.25 to 8.75 wounds (from S4 at worst, to S5 +1 Wound at best)
So that's 2.625 at worst, 4.375 at best.
Edit: Imma go to Anydice. Assuming 10 hits, you have the following odds of killing him:
7.81% chance of killing him at S4
21.31% chance of killing him at S5 or +1 Wound
40.92% chance of killing him at S5 and +1 Wound
if you plan to drop also a changecaster you invest lot of point ( and perhaps dont kill anyway the assassin) and im pretty sure against an opponent with opposable thumbs you get nowhere, they aren't good to kill character b4 i dont see any reason why they should kill a character now.
Please don’t pin y’all hopes - and base y’all near-future purchases - on this shaky loophole. If you’ve already got Fallen and a Vindicare, knock yourself out. But don’t drop a hundred quid on this
> a lucky Vindicare can kill a support character
Luck don’t come into it. Budget a command reroll and killing a 4w cheerleader is his default - and the CP will usually get reimbursed by the Vindicare Stratagem.
‘Lucky’ to a Vindicare is killing a support character AND a smash Lord in the same turn and then breaking even on CP.
I think the maths is seriously off here. I've played against new vindicares a few times and they're not that scary.
If they're shooting at a sorcerer/MOP/DA, not in cover, they're only wounding just over half (.57) of the time. Doing on adverage 3.06 wounds when they do. 1.74 wounds on adverage when they're in the open, 1.4 when in cover and 0 when you're out of line of sight. Obviously a reroll works both ways but you it would only add a little extra extra potency.
I think culexus is much more threatening, especially to a psyker heavy list. Especially with the fight last strat.
vindicare dont care of cover he just ignores, so matter nothing, it hits at 2+ regardless modifiers, wound infantry at 2+ with ap -3 with, no inv saves allowed, wonder how he can wound only half times a sorcerer/mop (INFANTRY) model, about wounds can happen he rolls 1's but more than often you pay 1cp to reroll then is all about his luck with head shot rolls, you can do nothing to avoid it unless you have FNP or a way to ignore/save mortal wounds
JNAProductions wrote: At least get your math right. I won't say it's a GOOD way of handling Vindicares, but there's no reason to fudge the math to make them look worse.
did you never heard of screens? how do you ever think you can drop inside 12" bubble of a vindicare?he can sit in a corner with just a small unit screening him, then you will drop too far away to ever have a chance to shoot, is not math is called, skilled opponent. I play too often Ds demons and often my opponent can prevent me to drop where i would like.
Forgot about the cover thing but seriously, I have played a few games and Ahriman on disc has never been killed. Most games I loose one nurgle infantary character after 2-3 rounds of shooting.
JNAProductions wrote: At least get your math right. I won't say it's a GOOD way of handling Vindicares, but there's no reason to fudge the math to make them look worse.
did you never heard of screens? how do you ever think you can drop inside 12" bubble of a vindicare?he can sit in a corner with just a small unit screening him, then you will drop too far away to ever have a chance to shoot, is not math is called, skilled opponent. I play too often Ds demons and often my opponent can prevent me to drop where i would like.
Again-I didn't say it was a good way of handling Vindicares.
I really do hate to be an optimist, but I'm starting to think that CSM squads with a combi bolter and the rotor cannon might be....no longer hot trash? Like, not great, but now middle of the road?
Being kind and giving them reroll 1st (which, yes, do bump the cost, but are super common in our army and will splash to everything else...so not fair to charge them the full price)
At 24 inches they kill 7 boys (49 points), 5 fire warriors (50 points), a little bit less than 7 guard (28 points, bleh). Those aren't actually terrible numbers for an 85 point unit. Very few things kill guard efficiently. We used to say 40 cultists with VotLW, Abadon and Endless was pretty good?
Within 12 (not the easiest thing) that's 52 dead guard, 26 outside of 12, 50 boys, 25 outside of 12, 39 fire warriors, 19 outside of 12.
A unit of 10 CSM with double the above with let's say prescience and reroll 1s (so let's say from huron, a much cheaper alternative to abadon), votlw and endless costs about the same. 42 dead guard at 24 inches, 46 boys at 24 inches, 33 dead fire warriors. So they end up falling about 15-20% behind what was considered one of our better things in terms of casualties, but can manage it at twice the range. This does assume they didn't move, but getting 40 cultists within 12 inches of a target isn't the easiest feat either.
Durability-wise, it's hard to measure because of the types of guns are much more varied. Probably in favor of the cultists, but it is worth noting that if the cultists lost 20 men, they're half strength for shooting. If the marines lose 5, they're at more like 75% strength.
I dunno, I think between that reaper cannon and bolter discipline, marines might not be trash tier anymore, particularly for red corsairs, black legion or alpha legion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also the more I look at the dark apostate, the more I gnash my teeth in frustration. I would really *really* have loved to be able to pick two from the prayers list (excluding the explicitly inferior got mark ones). But it feels like unless you make use of the rerolling hits prayer, which I think is hard to do in many builds, he's really not worth it; 100 points to give -1 to hit or +1 to hit is just not useful outside of a very small number of units (kytans, oblits. LoS) and I'm not sure it is justified even there. If his disciples let him get a 3rd prayer or even if there was a strategem to rotate prayers I might like him...I really loved him when I thought he got all of the prayers.
1) As others are saying, Red Corsairs battalions with MSU 5x csm with combi-bolter+rotor cannon will be very common.
2) The Legions worth using in general will be Black Legion because they have so many toys, and Alpha Legion because, well, you know.
3) Our major competitive lists will likely be: A) Daemon-engine-zilla with support characters, B) gunlines based around havocs and oblits with support characters, C) Death star+nasty characters, and D) mass cheap infantry (csm+cheap terminators) with support characters.
4) Triple vindicare will wreck type B and C lists, but fail against A and D.
5) Obvious death star ideas:
a) 10 nurgle combi plasma terminators with -1 to be hit power and prayer. Probably alpha legion, or black legion with 1CP strat to give them all marks (then pile on slaanesh 5+++ and double shoot strat.) To be extra annoying, add a detachment of death guards with blight lords and cloud of flies. 20 combi plasma terminators that are basically unshootable!
b) 20 possessed with buffs and specialist detachment. Alpha legion for infiltrate, or flawless host to maximize choppiness. Just warptime them in turn 1 after screen clearing with rotor cannons. They can be extremely hard to kill with a prayer/power or two.
c) Lord of Skulls or Kytan with DA prayers and/or MoP powers. How do you deal with a melee superheavy with 4++, -1 to be hit, and that first turn charges with warptime?
d) Red corsairs melee CSM swarm getting fearless from Abaddon. Just throw 3 squads of 20 at them. They aren't super killy, but they will get all over you. Almost nobody has the tools to deal with getting tarpitted by power armor right now. And you can respawn 1 per round with the strat. May as well also throw in a 30 cultists squad with Tide of Traitors.
6) Black Legion gets a ton of nice relics and ways to hand out more relics and warlord traits. How about a character-centric build where you bring a bunch of CSM to be chaff and rely on souped of characters to murder everything? This will go well with Red Corsairs because they also get bonus relic, and will provide the CP.
7) Guessing we'll see a lot of lists that are 2x Red Corsair batallions and 1x Black Legion or Alpha legion to get VotLW on havocs or oblits.
drakerocket wrote: I really do hate to be an optimist, but I'm starting to think that CSM squads with a combi bolter and the rotor cannon might be....no longer hot trash? Like, not great, but now middle of the road?
Being kind and giving them reroll 1st (which, yes, do bump the cost, but are super common in our army and will splash to everything else...so not fair to charge them the full price)
At 24 inches they kill 7 boys (49 points), 5 fire warriors (50 points), a little bit less than 7 guard (28 points, bleh). Those aren't actually terrible numbers for an 85 point unit. Very few things kill guard efficiently. We used to say 40 cultists with VotLW, Abadon and Endless was pretty good?
Within 12 (not the easiest thing) that's 52 dead guard, 26 outside of 12, 50 boys, 25 outside of 12, 39 fire warriors, 19 outside of 12.
A unit of 10 CSM with double the above with let's say prescience and reroll 1s (so let's say from huron, a much cheaper alternative to abadon), votlw and endless costs about the same. 42 dead guard at 24 inches, 46 boys at 24 inches, 33 dead fire warriors. So they end up falling about 15-20% behind what was considered one of our better things in terms of casualties, but can manage it at twice the range. This does assume they didn't move, but getting 40 cultists within 12 inches of a target isn't the easiest feat either.
Durability-wise, it's hard to measure because of the types of guns are much more varied. Probably in favor of the cultists, but it is worth noting that if the cultists lost 20 men, they're half strength for shooting. If the marines lose 5, they're at more like 75% strength.
I dunno, I think between that reaper cannon and bolter discipline, marines might not be trash tier anymore, particularly for red corsairs, black legion or alpha legion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also the more I look at the dark apostate, the more I gnash my teeth in frustration. I would really *really* have loved to be able to pick two from the prayers list (excluding the explicitly inferior got mark ones). But it feels like unless you make use of the rerolling hits prayer, which I think is hard to do in many builds, he's really not worth it; 100 points to give -1 to hit or +1 to hit is just not useful outside of a very small number of units (kytans, oblits. LoS) and I'm not sure it is justified even there. If his disciples let him get a 3rd prayer or even if there was a strategem to rotate prayers I might like him...I really loved him when I thought he got all of the prayers.
honestly with bolter discipline just basic CSM squads will likely earn back their points, unlikely they will be high priority targets turn 1 anyway, just sit on objectives and put out half decent shots I dont expect much crazy earning back 3x their points that other squads can but they will do the job you need.
The dark apostle is annoying mostly because the re roll hits in fight phase isnt really hard to come by in CSM armies, you are often running a lord or daemon prince near CC units for the re roll 1s in fight, so him having it on that is pretty meh so you are kinda just paying 100 for the lord back up+ 1 prayer but you cant really tailor him fully. For my lists id prefer to take the illusory supplication for the invuln+warp sight or darkness if I was using him in gun line support, or omen of potency + soul tearer + god specific if I was kitting him for fighting himself(priest with omen and flawless host might actually be pretty killy) I wouldnt have even minded if the helpers were 10 points and gave +1 to casting and +1 prayer known
I think 6 MSU squads with a chain cannon and a combi bolter in each squad will kick the ass of 6 to 8 infantry squads any day of the week. And that's even with mortar support. The question is ... is it overkill. Because it just makes sense to have at least 1 squad of Havocs with chain cannons. And 1 squad of those chain cannon havocs alone, stacked with prescience, VOTLW. Cacophony will decimate chaff already. (64 shots).
There are other types of lists out there. Like knights. A knight will probably take out a whole MSU squad per fight phase with its stompy feet. Also, those 6 infantry squads only cost the imperium player 240 points. He has got a lot of points outside of that to spend on all sorts of nasties.
What I love about the 4 chain cannon havoc squad is that its super efficient and almost a throw away and yet it can clear so much chaff. Its under 150 points, and after you have shot your load of 64 shots, even if the opponent focus all the attention on it and kill it. Its probably killed more than its points in chaff. The thing is, the opponent that focus on killing it is sort of wasting his resources to kill it because it has already done its job the first time it got a alpha strike of 64 shots in. Of course, leaving it alone so that it can get a second 64 shots in isn't a very idea either so he will probably be forced to kill it. lol
vaklor4 wrote: Bonus points on that LoS strategy if you use your other MoP power to heal it for 4 a turn between its own heal and Sacrifice from a warpsmith!
Well, bear in mind you need it to be within 6 inches of your MOP to get the +1 invul. And a warp smith has to be near to repair too. Its gonna be hard for the warpsmith or the MOP to keep up if you warp time your LOS forward lol.
Well, if you start the master of possession near the front of the LoS, and advance him, that's about 9-10 inches of movement, and given how long the LoS's tonka truck booty is, it will still be poking the hind of the LoS with his buff about 4-ish inches back (could be 5, cant remember),
so on average you're able to at least keep the LoS within range at 14 inches from the back of it, so the LoS would be at most 18-19 inches forward...So to keep him within range, you wouldn't have to sacrifice THAT much movement, with the right positioning.
I don't actually see much synergy between the MoP and the LoS or kytan. They both want to move way faster than he does and get into melee. I do think the apostate might be worth it because protecting 400+ point models with a -1 might be good enough to warrant it. The other thing to note is that they are daemon engines; which mean Lords Discordant give them +1 WS and BS, which is actually nutters good on those models.
I think a black legion supreme command of a kytan, Lord Discordant with the half damage trait, a dark apostate and a sorc might well be pretty brutal set up with the new specialist detachment may be potent enough to do some real work. Even castelians despise -1 to hit (more than doubles their plasma overloads, reduces their output by something like 20%). The kytan easily survives a castlian volley with (depending on what was used) 12-8 or so wounds remaining. Then he gets healed 1 from himself, d3 more from the lord discordant, he could well survive a second volley. And he can operate at full strength with the specialist strategem.
Also worth noting there is an advance and charge stategem and he advances 2d6; average 19 inch move So...you turn that up a bit with a friendly ahriman on disk who can toss warptime on him, plus prescience...and actually can clear a path through the chaff to the knight? He doesn't have terrible odds of killing the castelian in melee in a single round. I dunno, like, it's quite a bit to stack up, but nothing we're talking about isn't stuff we'd already consider taking anyways. And you have a lot of army left still after this.
small_gods wrote: Forgot about the cover thing but seriously, I have played a few games and Ahriman on disc has never been killed. Most games I loose one nurgle infantary character after 2-3 rounds of shooting.
Okay. Ahriman is CAVALRY - if you’re riding a bike or a beast, then you’re protected from the Vindicare’s anti-INFANTRY capability. More power to you if he’s tanked a fair few Exitus rounds with his disc, but I’m still very much worried about my footsloggers.
Furthermore, Vindicare can quite happily use a shoot twice strat every turn, and on average reimburse the CP it if it gets any kills. It’s effective damage output is at least twice what appears; more, if they throw a reroll at it - which isn’t a bad idea if, say, it takes down a 5++ aura or rerolls aura.
New Raptors detachment has piqued my interest. Warp Talons remain painfully expensive, buuuut having an Overwatch denial unit isn’t bad. Plasma paratroopers who can drop in, pop six shots, reliably flock around some gunner unit and then hop away again and shoot if the victim didn’t fall back? That’s not bad at all.
small_gods wrote: Forgot about the cover thing but seriously, I have played a few games and Ahriman on disc has never been killed. Most games I loose one nurgle infantary character after 2-3 rounds of shooting.
Okay. Ahriman is CAVALRY - if you’re riding a bike or a beast, then you’re protected from the Vindicare’s anti-INFANTRY capability. More power to you if he’s tanked a fair few Exitus rounds with his disc, but I’m still very much worried about my footsloggers.
Furthermore, Vindicare can quite happily use a shoot twice strat every turn, and on average reimburse the CP it if it gets any kills. It’s effective damage output is at least twice what appears; more, if they throw a reroll at it - which isn’t a bad idea if, say, it takes down a 5++ aura or rerolls aura.
New Raptors detachment has piqued my interest. Warp Talons remain painfully expensive, buuuut having an Overwatch denial unit isn’t bad. Plasma paratroopers who can drop in, pop six shots, reliably flock around some gunner unit and then hop away again and shoot if the victim didn’t fall back? That’s not bad at all.
His Shoot Twice has to target someone else though, right? So it's not THAT reliable at popping one character.
you right you need to choose someone else
@small god: of course Ahrimann might survive as was explained above he is cavarly, he is wounded on 3+ and of corse Nurgle character stand a chance to survive, they have FNP to ignore first damage (and deny head shot) then they can save head shot mortal wounds, many other infantry character cant so they fall prey of vindicare.
blackmage wrote: you right you need to choose someone else
@small god: of course Ahrimann might survive as was explained above he is cavarly, he is wounded on 3+ and of corse Nurgle character stand a chance to survive, they have FNP to ignore first damage (and deny head shot) then they can save head shot mortal wounds, many other infantry character cant so they fall prey of vindicare.
He's still wounded on a 3+ it's hardly a massive obstacle for vindicare. And nurgle characters are 4W, with no save against him. I think it is a case of the rules seeming more deadly than they actually are. See maths on previous post, adverage damage to a 3+ character 1.74 wounds per turn. Sure he can pop off a couple of characters but he'll take 3 turns on adverage to down a 4W 3+ model.
It probably is viable but they jury is out on what would make it viable. Used to be he ran with giant squads of cultists. It's less clear now what he should do.
blackmage wrote: you right you need to choose someone else
@small god: of course Ahrimann might survive as was explained above he is cavarly, he is wounded on 3+ and of corse Nurgle character stand a chance to survive, they have FNP to ignore first damage (and deny head shot) then they can save head shot mortal wounds, many other infantry character cant so they fall prey of vindicare.
He's still wounded on a 3+ it's hardly a massive obstacle for vindicare. And nurgle characters are 4W, with no save against him. I think it is a case of the rules seeming more deadly than they actually are. See maths on previous post, adverage damage to a 3+ character 1.74 wounds per turn. Sure he can pop off a couple of characters but he'll take 3 turns on adverage to down a 4W 3+ model.
That seems slow mostly, but it is good to keep in mind you have a dice reroll available (which should bump that to 2 wounds) and the Turbo Strategem is a good way to earn several points back per wound.
blackmage wrote: you right you need to choose someone else
@small god: of course Ahrimann might survive as was explained above he is cavarly, he is wounded on 3+ and of corse Nurgle character stand a chance to survive, they have FNP to ignore first damage (and deny head shot) then they can save head shot mortal wounds, many other infantry character cant so they fall prey of vindicare.
He's still wounded on a 3+ it's hardly a massive obstacle for vindicare. And nurgle characters are 4W, with no save against him. I think it is a case of the rules seeming more deadly than they actually are. See maths on previous post, adverage damage to a 3+ character 1.74 wounds per turn. Sure he can pop off a couple of characters but he'll take 3 turns on adverage to down a 4W 3+ model.
Nurgle has FNP so they can save anytime, dont do lot of math, try play some matches that teach you a lot, lot more than do maths , vindicare get 1 single shot and wound at 3+ is quite different than wound on 2+, same for FNP, 5+++ is a decent way to deny 1 shot 1 dead. U have 33% chance to escape the starting damage so then NO head shot, and another 33% against every further head shots, i play nurgle since months and i know how strong FNP can be. Im testing for ETC finals in april, and vindicare is annoying but nothing Nurgle characters cant handle, again less math more play imho.
Hmmm, the scourged is actually pretty good as a spearhead detachement. Its a shooting legion trait.
The legion trait lets 1 model in a unit reroll 1 hit roll each time it shoots or fights. Plus it overwatchs on a 5+ The scourged strategem lets it shoot at a unit that deep strikes down within 12 inches (with no penalty!).
So, its actually really good if you run a spearhead of 2 units of 1 oblit each and then 1 unit of havocs with lascannons.
The obilts benefit the most from the trait. Its amazing when applied to a 1 model Oblit. And they will overwatch on a 5+. Then the lascannon havoc you set up in the back field also benefits well from the trait because lascannons are single shot, and anything that deep strikes within 12 inches will get 4 lascannons inthe face. Oblits and lascannon haocs don't care that much about losing VOTLW either.
While everyone is trying to find some crazy comboes with our new rules, I think some things fly under the radar...
What's your opponion on this unit :
- 5 Raptors, 2 Plasmaguns and 1 Combi-plasma, 108pts. For 2CP (special detachment and strat), you can drop these guys anywhere, fire 6 re-rollable OC plasma shots. Bring 2 squads and do that on turn 2 and turn 3.
blackmage wrote: you right you need to choose someone else
@small god: of course Ahrimann might survive as was explained above he is cavarly, he is wounded on 3+ and of corse Nurgle character stand a chance to survive, they have FNP to ignore first damage (and deny head shot) then they can save head shot mortal wounds, many other infantry character cant so they fall prey of vindicare.
He's still wounded on a 3+ it's hardly a massive obstacle for vindicare. And nurgle characters are 4W, with no save against him. I think it is a case of the rules seeming more deadly than they actually are. See maths on previous post, adverage damage to a 3+ character 1.74 wounds per turn. Sure he can pop off a couple of characters but he'll take 3 turns on adverage to down a 4W 3+ model.
Nurgle has FNP so they can save anytime, dont do lot of math, try play some matches that teach you a lot, lot more than do maths , vindicare get 1 single shot and wound at 3+ is quite different than wound on 2+, same for FNP, 5+++ is a decent way to deny 1 shot 1 dead. U have 33% chance to escape the starting damage so then NO head shot, and another 33% against every further head shots, i play nurgle since months and i know how strong FNP can be. Im testing for ETC finals in april, and vindicare is annoying but nothing Nurgle characters cant handle, again less math more play imho.
I mean I was literally just talking about how I've played 3-4 games against vindicares. I'm playing in an ETC major this weekend I think the maths is very important in a game that is litterally defined by x/6 in thousands of different combinations
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmmm, the scourged is actually pretty good as a spearhead detachement. Its a shooting legion trait.
The legion trait lets 1 model in a unit reroll 1 hit roll each time it shoots or fights. Plus it overwatchs on a 5+ The scourged strategem lets it shoot at a unit that deep strikes down within 12 inches (with no penalty!).
So, its actually really good if you run a spearhead of 2 units of 1 oblit each and then 1 unit of havocs with lascannons.
The obilts benefit the most from the trait. Its amazing when applied to a 1 model Oblit. And they will overwatch on a 5+. Then the lascannon havoc you set up in the back field also benefits well from the trait because lascannons are single shot, and anything that deep strikes within 12 inches will get 4 lascannons inthe face. Oblits and lascannon haocs don't care that much about losing VOTLW either.
I'm still trying to decide if I should paint up my half of Shadowpear Sourged or Alpha Legion (which is what I'm currently running).
The relic to make someone fight last also seems useful of you can stick it on a daemon prince in the centre of a gunline (would need some careful positioning). What is their warlord trait?
Nym wrote: 5 Alpha Legion havocs, 4 Reaper autocannons, 110pts. That's 16 shots at 36", S7 AP-1 D1 on a T5 3+ -1 to hit unit. Getting a 2+ save is easy enough, and they'll kill hordes and light vehicles easily while being safer (and cheaper) than Rotor cannon havocs.
As it stands, havocs can't take reaper autocannons (unless they've added it as an option in the updated codex?), only regular autocannons. Half the shots but twice the damage still makes them a fairly effective choice against light armour, but they are somewhat wasted on horde infantry.
Nym wrote: While everyone is trying to find some crazy comboes with our new rules, I think some things fly under the radar...
What's your opponion on these units :
- 5 Alpha Legion havocs, 4 Reaper autocannons, 110pts. That's 16 shots at 36", S7 AP-1 D1 on a T5 3+ -1 to hit unit. Getting a 2+ save is easy enough, and they'll kill hordes and light vehicles easily while being safer (and cheaper) than Rotor cannon havocs.
- 5 Raptors, 2 Plasmaguns and 1 Combi-plasma, 108pts. For 2CP (special detachment and strat), you can drop these guys anywhere, fire 6 re-rollable OC plasma shots. Bring 2 squads and do that on turn 2 and turn 3.
Havocs can take RAC now?
Automatically Appended Next Post: WRT Havocs: everyone’s ready to snip off the HB barrels and replace with some tubes from a model trains shop, or an Assault Cannon barrel, yeah? (Honestly surprised the chaingun isn’t a HB variant build, they are so similar in design)
Havocs cannot take Reaper Autocannons, I'm assuming people are seeing "Reaper" in the Heavy Weapons section and missing that the second word in that name is "Chaincannon" Regular Autocannons for days! Terminators still get the Reaper variant, of course.
Make your characters alpha legion. Now vindicare needs 3's to hit in the first place. If you face that many vindicares, put them on a disc. They're now no longe infantry, so 3+ to hit and 3+ to wound. Even if he makes it with his single dice, you then get your 6+ save. That should be more than 50% to ignore the wound. If you get wound eventually, temporal manipulation next time through your T.Sons supreme detachment to bring your guy back up.
3 vindicares ARE scary. At that point, simply hide your characters out of LoS. No harm done whatsoever, and assasins ain't cheap. If they spent one of their 3 detachments and 255 pts on the assasins and they get to do nothing all game long, I call that even.
That's my plan if I face that kind of army. My characters are either able to buff stuff out of sight (Masters of Possession mostly) or could care less about being shot at by a Vindicare (Lord Discordant). My group always plays on boards with a good amount of terrain to counter skew lists of that type, it alleviates a lot of issues competitive or casual 40K can otherwise have.
Speaking of the Lord Discordant, I'm thinking of running a pair of them in that Soul-forged pack or whatever it is called from Vigilus Ablaze; the relic Mechatendrils alone can easily murder half a Primaris squad, and the other Lord will take the Intoxicating Elixir to really buff up its attacks (none of its melee weapons have fixed Strength stats; the bonus attack will only affect the Chainglaive, but buffing most of his attacks up to Strength 8 or 9 is so juicy). They're self contained beat-sticks as long as you have Command Points handy for Daemonforge (pop it on whichever one needs it most or, perhaps more accurately, actually survives to make a combat )
I haven't done the maths but I have a feeling a Lord Discordant with the Intoxicating Elixir (does anything stop him from taking it?) and Daemonforge activated on his top bracket will nearly pop a Knight in one round of combat. Very rough maths, but seems like you'd average 6-8 unsaved damage from the Chainglaive, 4-6 unsaved damage from the Bladed Limbs and Tail, and between 2-6 (including the mortal wounds) unsaved damage from the Techno-Virus Injector. Close but not quite, but for a unit that costs less than half of a Questoris Knight, and nearly a quarter of a Dominus Knight, that's pretty darned good. Very easily capable of turn one charges too, though obviously you'd have to clear the screens first (which the new Chaos are really darned good at doing, mind) and a smartly positioned Knight plus screen will ensure you can't make it to the Knight turn one without a super long charge roll regardless.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Make your characters alpha legion. Now vindicare needs 3's to hit in the first place. If you face that many vindicares, put them on a disc. They're now no longe infantry, so 3+ to hit and 3+ to wound. Even if he makes it with his single dice, you then get your 6+ save. That should be more than 50% to ignore the wound. If you get wound eventually, temporal manipulation next time through your T.Sons supreme detachment to bring your guy back up.
3 vindicares ARE scary. At that point, simply hide your characters out of LoS. No harm done whatsoever, and assasins ain't cheap. If they spent one of their 3 detachments and 255 pts on the assasins and they get to do nothing all game long, I call that even.
Point of clarity: If a Vindicare remains stationary, it hits on 2+ regardless of modifiers. So Alpha Legion does jack-all against it. But making them bikes works well, as the Vindie will go from wounding on 2+ to wounding on 4+ (no longer Infantry and T5)
topaxygouroun i wrote: Make your characters alpha legion. Now vindicare needs 3's to hit in the first place. If you face that many vindicares, put them on a disc. They're now no longe infantry, so 3+ to hit and 3+ to wound. Even if he makes it with his single dice, you then get your 6+ save. That should be more than 50% to ignore the wound. If you get wound eventually, temporal manipulation next time through your T.Sons supreme detachment to bring your guy back up.
3 vindicares ARE scary. At that point, simply hide your characters out of LoS. No harm done whatsoever, and assasins ain't cheap. If they spent one of their 3 detachments and 255 pts on the assasins and they get to do nothing all game long, I call that even.
Point of clarity: If a Vindicare remains stationary, it hits on 2+ regardless of modifiers. So Alpha Legion does jack-all against it. But making them bikes works well, as the Vindie will go from wounding on 2+ to wounding on 4+ (no longer Infantry and T5)
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Biker sorcerers it is, then! Cool models too. I would so much rather have my exalted sorcerers ride bikes instead of discs. Improvise.Adapt.Overcome!
How would you guys rate a detachment with some greater possessed moving up with their little brothers in a renegade detachment? Maybe run em as red corsairs and have that big block of CSM run up behind them as well being able to replace them with the strategem Support them with a master of posession and sorc? If nothing else it seems it has a lot of synergy.
So, im thinking about the Idea of Running a Lord Discordant with some Decimators in a Soulforged Hunting Pack, but im rather worried about his surviability. 12w T6 2+/5++ will die to anti tank weapons very very quickly, so whats the best way to survive turn 1? Black Legion Half DMG trait sounds pretty great but then you loose the +2move trait, alternatively you could stack AL -1 with a DA -1 prayer to -2 to hit?
Im afraid he will be quite a fire magnet....
stormcraft wrote: So, im thinking about the Idea of Running a Lord Discordant with some Decimators in a Soulforged Hunting Pack, but im rather worried about his surviability. 12w T6 2+/5++ will die to anti tank weapons very very quickly, so whats the best way to survive turn 1? Black Legion Half DMG trait sounds pretty great but then you loose the +2move trait, alternatively you could stack AL -1 with a DA -1 prayer to -2 to hit?
Im afraid he will be quite a fire magnet....
Play two. They're basically the new maulerfiends. Replace your maulerfiends with these new guys and you're good to go. Bring a couple of other big targets along.
Heck, bring all of them. Two lord discordants or three, two maulerfiends, a defiler with scourge, two decimators. Maybe two new-spider-things if they're Elite. Add a MoP for that double healing and 4++ saves. Make the whole thing Alpha legion.
I can never understand the argument "it's going to die turn 1" This applies to anything in the game. anything will die turn 1 if the opponent devotes 2000 pts of shooting at it.So what, does that mean you won't be bringing any army at all?
My bad, they can't. That's what happens when you do not double-check things you read on the internet... Reaper Autocannon Havocs would have been too good I guess... :(
5 man CSM units with a reaper chaincannon clock at 85 pts per unit. Fill a troop slot, hang on an objective, have 8 str 5 shots and 6 str 4 shots with the new bolter drill. Doesn't sound half bad. Make them into the new hotness (red corsairs), add two chaos smash lords to fill in the battalion. Pow. 2 smash lords, lots of anti ifantry shooting, ObSec and 8 CP for sub 500 pts.
Unless I am mistaken, the Lord Discordant isn't going to get a legion benefit, unless I am reading it wrong?
But yeah, in general people are too caught up focusing on him as a character. He's not a character, he's a daemon engine.
If someone said "Hey look, we're more or less doubling the offensive output of maulerfiends and raising them by 20 points" people would think that was amazing. They did that and people worry about it being shot off the board.
Also worth noting a lot of anti-tank weapons are actually not ap -4. Sure, las cannons are, but dissie cannons aren't, many tau weapons aren't, lootas aren't, autocannon aren't, etc. Anything like that is going to be on a better save because 2+ actually matters a good bit. Further, he's going to be pretty capable of turn 1 charges in most builds. And if you lose turn 1, then your army is going to be a pretty good candidate for fortified positions; at that point he is a 1+ save, meaning all of the AP -3 weapons are going to be against a 4+ save. And they really do have to kill him; his capacity to heal is not inconsiderable.
topaxygouroun i wrote: 5 man CSM units with a reaper chaincannon clock at 85 pts per unit. Fill a troop slot, hang on an objective, have 8 str 5 shots and 6 str 4 shots with the new bolter drill. Doesn't sound half bad. Make them into the new hotness (red corsairs), add two chaos smash lords to fill in the battalion. Pow. 2 smash lords, lots of anti ifantry shooting, ObSec and 8 CP for sub 500 pts.
I'm still not convinced with smash lords as a competitive thing. We already have a fast dangerous and tough beatstick in daemon princes. The Blood Angels smash captains work so well because of the ammount of shenanigans their stratergems allow. At the minute they're 100+ points for 4 attacks hitting on 3+.
Although 3x5 red cosair csm with a reaper chaincannin is definately going to be more useful than whag we had 6 months ago.
topaxygouroun i wrote: 5 man CSM units with a reaper chaincannon clock at 85 pts per unit. Fill a troop slot, hang on an objective, have 8 str 5 shots and 6 str 4 shots with the new bolter drill. Doesn't sound half bad. Make them into the new hotness (red corsairs), add two chaos smash lords to fill in the battalion. Pow. 2 smash lords, lots of anti ifantry shooting, ObSec and 8 CP for sub 500 pts.
I'm still not convinced with smash lords as a competitive thing. We already have a fast dangerous and tough beatstick in daemon princes. The Blood Angels smash captains work so well because of the ammount of shenanigans their stratergems allow. At the minute they're 100+ points for 4 attacks hitting on 3+.
Although 3x5 red cosair csm with a reaper chaincannin is definately going to be more useful than whag we had 6 months ago.
I posted this question a page back. With the Khorne fight twice Strategem, exalted champion warlord traits you can make a pretty good smash captain. Flawless host has a lot of potential as well against imperium getting a bananas amount of attacks potentially.
I think the big thing our smash captains lack are stormshields. 3++ to 4++ is a pretty big difference. Also, they have to compete with an elixir/diabolic strength prince, not very easy to do. How do you get a chaos smash captain to anything like 9 strength 10 ap -2 2 damage attacks?
drakerocket wrote: I think the big thing our smash captains lack are stormshields. 3++ to 4++ is a pretty big difference. Also, they have to compete with an elixir/diabolic strength prince, not very easy to do. How do you get a chaos smash captain to anything like 9 strength 10 ap -2 2 damage attacks?
By being 80 pts cheaper. Essentially by taking two of them for every DP you field.
Is it perfect? Nope. Is it way better than any other use of chaos lords we had before? You betcha. I mean, you don't even have to play them as smash captains. You can have them as normal lords buffing your units around like it's just Tuesday, until the point where you get the option to jump 12" ahead and punch something in the face.
But don't forget, this is chaos. Don't enjoy your smash lords? Play sorcerers! Or dark apostles with the new sweet prayers. Or warpsmiths and keep healing stuff! the world is your oyster!
Alpha Legion still have the old standby Blade of the Hydra Lord. 4+d3 attacks on a 93-point model is no joke. He won't be killing Imperial Knights or anything like that by himself, but he'll do some damage against other similar characters. He's a lot cheaper than the Thunderhammer guy is why I mention him.
ZergSmasher wrote: Alpha Legion still have the old standby Blade of the Hydra Lord. 4+d3 attacks on a 93-point model is no joke. He won't be killing Imperial Knights or anything like that by himself, but he'll do some damage against other similar characters. He's a lot cheaper than the Thunderhammer guy is why I mention him.
I have been playing an exalted sorc on disc with seer's bane before. A smash lord will be about 30-40 pts cheaper. Won't have access to spells, but will be equally efficient in close combat against a larger assortment of targets.
Nym wrote: While everyone is trying to find some crazy comboes with our new rules, I think some things fly under the radar...
What's your opponion on this unit :
- 5 Raptors, 2 Plasmaguns and 1 Combi-plasma, 108pts. For 2CP (special detachment and strat), you can drop these guys anywhere, fire 6 re-rollable OC plasma shots. Bring 2 squads and do that on turn 2 and turn 3.
my opinion is that really... you should just take the lord with jump pack (that is reallllly good!) and just drop him at the same time as the raptors, thus saving you 2 CP? I mean it was already possible to do what you're describing, and even with prescience, reroll and whatnot, it wasn't that OP. Just.... okay.
Now, having a bunch of warp talon dropping turn 2 with +2 to their charge, preventing overwatch on the rest of your army, seems pretty good. It's not cheap, but it will really shine against eldar, AM and Tau unit. You could almost make a case for possessed to be good with that!
Comes in at 1734, leaving 266 for the Fortification in a 2000 point game. Thoughts?
I think this is a typo, should only be able to do double plasma on 5 mans.
It seems alright, but very invested in a castle which falls short against certain things. Not sure I really am sold on the new terrain feature. Folks seem to want to use it to fix things like predators and hellbrutes, but those things are only just barely viable if even at all with their current price and chaining them to a 100 point piece of terrain just seems like a step to the side rather then a leap forward like they need.
A bit of food for thought regarding the Lord Discordand:
If you give him the "Soul Eater" WT (yes, the "Indomitable" trait that halves dmg is better, I know) he would regain D3 wound every time he kills a unit. If he kills a vehicle he would thus regain 2D3 wounds.
And after he killed that vehicle, you can use Chaos Boon. All of the results (except Daemonhood or Spawndom ofc) are a good benefit for him. +3" makes him really fast, +1S makes him and his mount S8 on the charge, +1A is always good, +1 to ALL saving throws would give him essentially a 1+/4++, +1T would take him to T7 (which isn't that great since most AT weapons still wound him on 3s) and +1W just makes him even beefier.
A warpsmith isn't bad though. The ability to repair is cool but I actually like him more for his offense at his cheap price point. In your list he could take the relic combi melta and just go on offense.
Comes in at 1734, leaving 266 for the Fortification in a 2000 point game. Thoughts?
I think this is a typo, should only be able to do double plasma on 5 mans.
It seems alright, but very invested in a castle which falls short against certain things. Not sure I really am sold on the new terrain feature. Folks seem to want to use it to fix things like predators and hellbrutes, but those things are only just barely viable if even at all with their current price and chaining them to a 100 point piece of terrain just seems like a step to the side rather then a leap forward like they need.
Did they say exactly how much the Noctilith (sp?) Crown ends up being? I'd say fill in the remaining points with cultists, so Abby can make them fearless chaff and use Tide of Traitors if they get low. Once, but still.
Causalis wrote: A bit of food for thought regarding the Lord Discordand:
If you give him the "Soul Eater" WT (yes, the "Indomitable" trait that halves dmg is better, I know) he would regain D3 wound every time he kills a unit. If he kills a vehicle he would thus regain 2D3 wounds.
And after he killed that vehicle, you can use Chaos Boon. All of the results (except Daemonhood or Spawndom ofc) are a good benefit for him. +3" makes him really fast, +1S makes him and his mount S8 on the charge, +1A is always good, +1 to ALL saving throws would give him essentially a 1+/4++, +1T would take him to T7 (which isn't that great since most AT weapons still wound him on 3s) and +1W just makes him even beefier.
I think I would be hesitant to run him as my WL to begin with. He's awesome and well worth taking, which means he is going to draw attention, not sure I want to reward my opponent further when he expires. Which is why odds are if I did run hm as my WL, it would be with the halving damage trait IF I am even running black legion. Otherwise he's going to just be a field commander so I can use the +2" move aura trait, but not be my actual WL.
Comes in at 1734, leaving 266 for the Fortification in a 2000 point game. Thoughts?
I think this is a typo, should only be able to do double plasma on 5 mans.
It seems alright, but very invested in a castle which falls short against certain things. Not sure I really am sold on the new terrain feature. Folks seem to want to use it to fix things like predators and hellbrutes, but those things are only just barely viable if even at all with their current price and chaining them to a 100 point piece of terrain just seems like a step to the side rather then a leap forward like they need.
Did they say exactly how much the Noctilith (sp?) Crown ends up being? I'd say fill in the remaining points with cultists, so Abby can make them fearless chaff and use Tide of Traitors if they get low. Once, but still.
I believe it was said to cost 100 points. Which isn't enough to be bad by any means, but definitely something to make me hesitate a bit. I just don't like that it encourages a static play style, Your at the will of your deployment at that point.
You could take cultists, you could also flesh out a second marine unit and just tide them after you do it on the other. I'll be honest though, your list lacks AI in a pretty big way.
I dont see taking the structure worth it unless you plan on the dark apostle to already be using his boost as well. Otherwise there are some tricksy things you can do.
Like take a land raider. Apostle puts it to 5++ with his prayer. Use the tzeentch spell weaver of fates. This puts your land raider at a 4++. Enjoy the looks.
So I am looking at the fact that CSms can come in 20-man squads...
and I am looking at the fearless aura from the priest as well as the +1 to hit/5+ invuln/-1 to hit prayer depending what you need...
and I'm looking at that 3CP Red Corsair stratagem...
Did GW just make a space marine unit worth fielding even at 13PPM?
Take 3 miniguns (or 1 plasma 2 miniguns if you can't do 3 heavy weapons in 20 I don't remember) and a combi-bolter on the sarge, make them mark of slaanesh just in case you wind up in a good position for a double shoot.
300+ points of models that just pops back up like daisies when they get shot up seems pretty hilarious.
Red Corsair wrote: I believe it was said to cost 100 points. Which isn't enough to be bad by any means, but definitely something to make me hesitate a bit. I just don't like that it encourages a static play style, Your at the will of your deployment at that point.
You could take cultists, you could also flesh out a second marine unit and just tide them after you do it on the other. I'll be honest though, your list lacks AI in a pretty big way.
Well, if it's only 100 points, that leaves enough points to get a 20-man Cultist unit. Give them autoguns, and that's something. Also, swap the plasma on the CSMs for the new rotor cannons. They don't really need the plasma anyway, with the Lascannon backfield. Also, the Helbrutes' Missile Launchers can be directed to fire frag missiles, if there's no good vehicle or monster targets.
Rydria wrote: How do noise marine (troops) compare to the new buffed chaos space marines ?
What the heck do you mean buffed? Nothing buffed space marines. They just got adjacent buffs that every other unit in the codex can basically take, aside from a couple Red Corsairs things.
Noise Marines are fantastic, however I think they contend too much with Combi-Bolter chosen at this point. But they still pack a punch, and are a great Endless Cacophony target if you take a squad of 10 or more.
Red Corsair wrote: I believe it was said to cost 100 points. Which isn't enough to be bad by any means, but definitely something to make me hesitate a bit. I just don't like that it encourages a static play style, Your at the will of your deployment at that point.
You could take cultists, you could also flesh out a second marine unit and just tide them after you do it on the other. I'll be honest though, your list lacks AI in a pretty big way.
Well, if it's only 100 points, that leaves enough points to get a 20-man Cultist unit. Give them autoguns, and that's something. Also, swap the plasma on the CSMs for the new rotor cannons. They don't really need the plasma anyway, with the Lascannon backfield. Also, the Helbrutes' Missile Launchers can be directed to fire frag missiles, if there's no good vehicle or monster targets.
Comes out to 2000 even. Added a little bit of anti-infantry, got a few good tricks, not a TAC list, but still fun!
How do we think that daemon engines measure up in shooting vs Predators/helbrutes now? They come with the 5++, so you can save the Noctilith crown and run another DA, Sorc, or MoP instead. Swap out a helbrute for a Lord Discordant for +1 to hit. You could have a blob with the MoP giving them a 4++ from his power.
Rydria wrote: How do noise marine (troops) compare to the new buffed chaos space marines ?
What the heck do you mean buffed? Nothing buffed space marines. They just got adjacent buffs that every other unit in the codex can basically take, aside from a couple Red Corsairs things.
Noise Marines are fantastic, however I think they contend too much with Combi-Bolter chosen at this point. But they still pack a punch, and are a great Endless Cacophony target if you take a squad of 10 or more.
I was under the impression that the beta bolter rule became official (though noise marines can benefit from this also) and the chaincannon now exists.
Another question for you folks could a brass scorpion work with a lord of discordant? Is the new red corsair csm detachment actually worth running for the cp poinrs in such a list?
Rydria wrote: How do noise marine (troops) compare to the new buffed chaos space marines ?
What the heck do you mean buffed? Nothing buffed space marines. They just got adjacent buffs that every other unit in the codex can basically take, aside from a couple Red Corsairs things.
Noise Marines are fantastic, however I think they contend too much with Combi-Bolter chosen at this point. But they still pack a punch, and are a great Endless Cacophony target if you take a squad of 10 or more.
I was under the impression that the beta bolter rule became official (though noise marines can benefit from this also) and the chaincannon now exists.
Did I say it's the best unit in the book? No. I said it's a good pick. Don't be one of those guys who assumes the 99% is terrible.
Rydria wrote: How do noise marine (troops) compare to the new buffed chaos space marines ?
What the heck do you mean buffed? Nothing buffed space marines. They just got adjacent buffs that every other unit in the codex can basically take, aside from a couple Red Corsairs things.
Noise Marines are fantastic, however I think they contend too much with Combi-Bolter chosen at this point. But they still pack a punch, and are a great Endless Cacophony target if you take a squad of 10 or more.
I was under the impression that the beta bolter rule became official (though noise marines can benefit from this also) and the chaincannon now exists.
Did I say it's the best unit in the book? No. I said it's a good pick. Don't be one of those guys who assumes the 99% is terrible.
I think he was responding to your initial question about what buffed marines. In other words he was doing the opposite of assuming they were terrible.
Rydria wrote: How do noise marine (troops) compare to the new buffed chaos space marines ?
What the heck do you mean buffed? Nothing buffed space marines. They just got adjacent buffs that every other unit in the codex can basically take, aside from a couple Red Corsairs things.
Noise Marines are fantastic, however I think they contend too much with Combi-Bolter chosen at this point. But they still pack a punch, and are a great Endless Cacophony target if you take a squad of 10 or more.
I was under the impression that the beta bolter rule became official (though noise marines can benefit from this also) and the chaincannon now exists.
Did I say it's the best unit in the book? No. I said it's a good pick. Don't be one of those guys who assumes the 99% is terrible.
I think he was responding to your initial question about what buffed marines. In other words he was doing the opposite of assuming they were terrible.
Aaah, yeah sorry, I didn't even think of that top part. But even with bolter rules, it doesn't stop CSM from being sub par. It's still better at this point IMO to bring 10 man cultist squads for your CP, and just bring Chosen and Havocs for anything you want your CSM to do.
So i am currently running a deamon engine list in a local 2k tournament, played 2 games already. My list is pretty silly, i took a stupid list idea to a competitive tournament but have gone 1 and 1 so eh?
Anyways basic list idea is
Abaddon
Sorc in term armor, mos Master of pos, mos Warpsmith
3x 5 man csm
2 defilers w/ scourges and reaper auto cannons, mok 3 man oblit squad w/ mos
Lord of skulls
Blood throne w/ crimson crown
First game vs wolf player with 2 of the flying fun busses and a 10 man hellblaster squad plus other stuff he target the lord of skulls hard. Fired all his anti tank (and even large amounts of small arms fire) at it. It barely survived with 4 wounds. Then my mop did his thing, the warpsmith did his thing, and it healed itself a bit to bring it to 9 wounds.
However i started the 3 oblits on the board since my opponent had a large area of denial with all those omni scramblers from thr new set out and about. He was so focused on killing the los my oblits walked up 4", stood near abby, and rolled +3 str, -3ap, and 3 dmg flat. They then killed 1 of the repulsers (did 33 wounds to it total) and used endless canophy to fire again and blew the hellblasters off the table. That took the wind out of his sails, realizing his mistake he tried to kill the oblits but t5, 4w, 2+/4++/5+++ (mop got his aura off and sorc put delightful agonies on them) with what he had left in range (the other repulser) did not work, he only managed to get 3 wounds through on one. Lord of skulls healed another 6 wounds then ran out and preceded to kill everything it came near. Oblits finished the other repulser.
What i learned was what others have also said on here, trying to run a deamon force where these big things run around and get all these buffs isnt going to happen. By t3 nothing was in range of the master of possessions 6" bubble, or the warpsmiths repair range, and the defilers got the most out of the blood throne's crown trick (6's to wound are additional attacks with same weapon) and abby, but even then they just didnt kill that much. They were more of an annoyance to my opponent, nothing like the oblits or lord of skulls.
2nd game went much like the 1st, except my opponent (genestealer cults) focused on a defiler t1 and used 9 biovores to make my life miserable. Also i lost so yeah lol. To be honest i knew i was in trouble that game, I didn't have nearly enough swarm control to make it work lol. That and mind control is a dick move, such a pain to deal with.
Titanicus wrote: Another question for you folks could a brass scorpion work with a lord of discordant? Is the new red corsair csm detachment actually worth running for the cp poinrs in such a list?
I don’t see why not, especially if a Legion trait’s giving the LD some staying power. Shame it can’t be Warptimed, though - LoS is more tempting to me for that reason
I think initial conversation on RC minimum Battalion reached a broad consensus that it approaches IG efficiency, and with them being able to double tap at 24” and take an eight shot heavy weapon the Heretacs are moderately useful
With Cultists taking a further kick in the gribblies, it certainly looks like a viable CP battery
Another combo I am really thinking about trying. Start a 5 or 10 man terminator squad on the board. (keep them cheap, chain axe and combi bolters). Make them bringers of despair. March them up the board alongside your 20 man corsar CSM. They will be firing 4 shots per terminator every turn. Plus, they can help kick the ass of any hard hitting unit that wants to threaten your red corsairs CSM unit. The CSM unit is the bubble wrap, but it will have guns too. Then if it gets whittled down and needs to take a morale test. Your terminator unit can use the new bringers of despair strategem which autopass morale for a unit within 18 inches of it. And then after you autopass morale, you spend 3cp to bring back the CSM unit to full strength in your opponent's backfield. lol
And well, 20 CSM and 10 terminators are pretty good for contesting mid board control. Have a question about specialist detachments though. Can they be taken across the whole army? Or are they limited to a specific detachment. Because if I have a superheavy daemon engine (like Brass scorpian or LOS), and I want to bring the soulforged detachment. Do I have to nominate it twice if I have daemon engines in my spearhead detachment AND my super heavy detachment?
The same question would apply if say I have jump pack chaos lords in two detachments. If I make all jump pack dudes raptorial host, does this only apply to one detachment?
Titanicus wrote: Another question for you folks could a brass scorpion work with a lord of discordant? Is the new red corsair csm detachment actually worth running for the cp poinrs in such a list?
I don’t see why not, especially if a Legion trait’s giving the LD some staying power. Shame it can’t be Warptimed, though - LoS is more tempting to me for that reason
I think initial conversation on RC minimum Battalion reached a broad consensus that it approaches IG efficiency, and with them being able to double tap at 24” and take an eight shot heavy weapon the Heretacs are moderately useful
With Cultists taking a further kick in the gribblies, it certainly looks like a viable CP battery
CSM has a lot less reason to run cultists now. Cultists are now max 30 man. It is far easier to gun down 30 cultists than it is to gun down 20 CSM and I can do the new tide of traitors on my 20 CSM squad as well. I suppose if I am going to use them as cheap bubble wrap then cultists still have a place.
Just as bad as before on CSM is not accurate. A 5 man squad can get a 20 point upgrade that over doubles their firepower. 20 man CSM squads can now tide of traitors. Red corsair ones can now gen 75% more CP than cultist counterparts.
No one is saying they are suddenly amazing or that you want them to be your main punch, but they are now decent instead of hot garbage.
You know, its actually even possible to run a fluffy list of 30 bikes now. Chaos warlord on a bike can take that new veteran raider warlord trait. All black legion units within 6 inches can fall back and declare a charge. bikes have a huge foot print. Its quite easy to fall back bikes to within 6 inches of your warlord and then charge again. Bikes are quite cheap now...
In fact, it doesn't even have to be your primary warlord. You can use council of traitors and give a sorceror a wwarlord trait. So, you can give your sorceror on a bike that warlord trait veteran raider. And a sorceror on bike is pretty good too.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You'll likely never fall back though, it'll be the opponent doing it.
For the same reason, White Scars sounds incredibly useful but is bad.
If they fall back, I get to shoot them and then charge them anyway. Either way they are in a bad spot lol.
But if you fall back you'll only charge. Chances are that, between the two rounds of combat and your previous shooting phase, the need to fall back and charge won't happen so often it's worth using a Warlord Trait on.
See my post above. You don't need to waste a warlord on it. For 1 CP, you can make a sorceror a secondary warlord. Make a bike sorceror your secondary warlord. It is not just bikes, its ALL black legion units. All of your infantry, berserkers, your fly key word jump pack units can all fall back to within 6 inches of that secondary sorceror bike lord and then charge again.
Not to mention you can make a sorceror on a bike pretty fighty (just give him a nice melee relic). Your sorceror lord himself can also fall back 14 inches, and then charge something again. Consider that one minute you are in combat in the midfield, so you can't be targeted and then you fall back (forward) 14 inches, and then charge. Next minute you could be in his back field already. And think about how this might combo with a raptorial host you have waiting to come in on turn 2. After you get charges off on your raptorial host, they can fall back to within 6 inches of your sorceror bike lord and then charge again! lol
And your raptorial host warlord can also be a secondary warlord (use field commander strategem). And he gives all raptorial units within 6 inches +2 inch on the charge. Those 2 secondary warlords together are going to combo so well...
Raptors who can shoot plasma shots, charge +2 inches with reroll to charge (icon of wrath), then fall back and shoot, then charge again at +2 charge with rerolls, are suddenly a very interesting unit now. And I just remember the tip of the spear strategem. If you are running this, it would make sense to have at least one big unit of 10 bikes (with possibly 3 plasma guns in it). First turn, rock up the board and unload all the combi bolters and plasma guns while using tip of the spear. And if you equip your raptorial host jump pack lord with the Angelsbane relic. Now he will be rocking a relic that gives him rapid fire 2, S5, AP-2, 2 damage per shot, which becomes 3 damage against imperium, and he combos with the Sorceror lord, so he ALWAYS gets to fall back, shoot that relic, and then charge into combat again... lol.
And nope, you do NOT need to waste a warlord on either one of them. hehe. In fact, your sorceror bike lord does not even need to be in the same detachment as your raptorial host detachment. He can be in a separate detachment.
Its 1 CP, it sounds absolutely fun !!! And it makes raptorial host sound sooo tasty!
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW, I think bike chaos lords and sorceror lords are going to become meta for CSM. A bike lord is T5. and is bike, not infantry. This makes a huge difference when being targeted by a Vindicare assassin.
CKO wrote: What are the top 5 units in this codex? Also are there any honorable mentions?
Nope, the good thing is that with combos, strategems and traits, all units become viable and thematic now. Its all in how your combo them.
But game changing standout would be the new reaper chain cannon. which can be taken on CSM squads, chosen, and havocs. Its 8 shots, str 5 and AP -1. Its a game changer for CSM. Suddenly we have something which can clear away chaff. Once we have that, every other archtype and theme becomes possible (melee, daemon engine, deep strike, big heroes, you name it).
CKO wrote: What are the top 5 units in this codex? Also are there any honorable mentions?
Nope, the good thing is that with combos, strategems and traits, all units become viable and thematic now. Its all in how your combo them.
But game changing standout would be the new reaper chain cannon. which can be taken on CSM squads, chosen, and havocs. Its 8 shots, str 5 and AP -1. Its a game changer for CSM. Suddenly we have something which can clear away chaff. Once we have that, every other archtype and theme becomes possible (melee, daemon engine, deep strike, big heroes, you name it).
Thanks for the quick response, I agree but you can still rank units in your opinion? Like what is the best unit, 2nd best 3rd best and so forth, and explain why they are the best choices.
No 1. Havos with that new reaper chain cannon. Because Havocs can now move and shoot heavy weapons with no penalty. Suddenly, those reaper chain cannons have an effective range of 30 inches. A havoc squad with 4 chain cannons shoot out 32 shots of str 5, and if you cacophony it, its 64 shots. The only other chaff clearing unit I can think of that comes close, is a 20 man noise marine squad with sonic blastors (cacophony it for 120 shots). But the noise marine squad costs 400 points, while the havoc squad costs 145 points... you just can't beat that kind of efficiency.
No 2: Obliterators. They will be FAQed to cost 115 per model. But while they are 65 points, they are ridiculous. Of course, I would say that even at 115 points, they are worth it. They are an all purpose unit that can hold their own in melee now. And even at 115 points per model, the key thing is that you can stack buffs on them to make them absolutely disgusting. 3 Oblits shoot out 18 heavy shot, and you can cacophony that into 36 shots. Stack on stuff like VOTLW, etc etc, and you have a unit that can delete almost anything you point it at. And it is not easy to kill. Its a very tough unit that can hold its own against shooting and melee alike.
3. Lord of Discordant. You probably need to build a theme around it to get best benefit out of it. But even if you don't, its a 12 W daemon engine character that can do even more damage than a Maulerfiend. The thing has a movement of 12 inches. And if you take the soul forged detachment warlord trait. Then it moves 14 inches (as does all daemon engines around it). And there is a strategem to allow Daemon engine to advance and charge. There is also a black legion warlord trai that halves damage on a warlord. Taking that on a lord of discordant suddenly gives it an effective 24W. By itself, its efficient in points. And it just makes all melee daemon engines better. The key thing is that previously, CSM didn't clear chaff that well. Now that we can use the chain cannon to clear chaff, our melee daemon engines becomes so much more deadly now. They get to charge into the juicy stuff and wreck face. Another key thing is that its points efficient. For 750 points, you can bring 2 lord of discordant and 3 maulerfiends. Or for less, you can bring 2 Lord of discordant and 3 venomcrawlers. And these will go up and wreck face. Sure, expect that some of them will die. But at 150 or less each, its not a big loss if one dies. Enough will get through to wreck face as long as all the chaff is cleared by your chain cannons. If you have the money, some people are suggesting just ditch mauler fiends, take a command detachment and go full out Lord of discordants.
4. The basic CSM squad. which can now take reaper chain cannons. Go red corsairs and take 3 squads for +3 CP. CSM can now have lots of CP to use. Imagine that. And red corsairs has a strategem that lets you tide of traitors your CSM into the back field at full strength (with no limit to use) for 3 CP. Loyalists have their loyal 32, we have our spiky 17 as a CP battery.
Just about every other unit can have combos to make it work well.
5. Greater possessed and possessed. Have you seen a 20 man squad of possessed that has a -3 to hit and a 4++ invul save, and hits for up to str 8? You can have such a squad now. You just need a sorceror, a Dark Apostle and a greater possessed to buff it.
6. Predator tanks and hellbrutes with a 5++ invul. Take the new terrain piece and build your own personal shooty castle.
7. Raptors and warp talons. Go raptorial host. See my post above on the sorceror bike lord and raptorial host. You can have two secondary warlords, one that gives +2 charge movement, another that allows units to fall back and charge again. Bikes benefit from the fall back and charge too.
8. Flawless Host Daemon Prince warlord with Malefic claws and intoxicating elixir relic. This DP hits 8 attacks at str 8. But the key thing is that on 6s, he adds 4 attacks... Just think about that. 4 attacks. Roll 2 6s and you add 8 attacks to that base 8. Roll 4 6s and you add 16 attacks... lol If you don't care about fuff, make your flawless host DP mark of khorne. Now you can fury of khorne to make it fight a second time for double the chances to trigger 6s. You thought smash captains were scary... you haven't seen this guy in action yet... lol. If you are the kind of person that loves to roll 6s. This thing is for you. BTW, if you go with this, you should consider flawless host supreme command. You can either go multiple flawless host DPs, or you can go one warlord DP as in this para, and then multiple lord of discordants in a soulforged detachment. Daemon engines don't benefit from legion traits anyway, so they won't care. A good way to squeeze in a red corsiars detachment for +3cp, a black legion detachment, and a flawless host supreme command detachment for multiple themes. (Squeezing in everything you want to for just 2000 points might be just a bit of a challenge though lol).
9. Daemon engines. well all the new soulforge detachment trait, strategem, plus the MOP to buff invul save by 1 and another spell to give it 1 to reroll hit and wound. And taking LOD to further buff them. All daemon engines were buffed, its a matter of degree. Melee daemon engines were buffed more. I would still skip the forgefiends, too much effort needed to buff them just to make them decent...
10. The sourged deachment for shooting, and black legion and maybe brazen beasts and flawless host for melee. Everything got better at fighting. Black legion has strategem that gives +1 attack if you outnumber the enemy. Flawless host infantry are rocking out more hits because of their trait. Brazen beasts trait makes all 6s to wound become genestealers equivalent.
11. Even our terminators got better. because we can now take chainaxe and combi bolter terminators at just 29 points per model. 10 terminators marching up the board are shooting out 40 shots each turn and cost only 290 points.
12. We can take thunderhammers now. So, we have our own chaos smash captains. They only have a 4++ save. But make them mark of khorne and they will be rocking out double attacks as well because they can fight twice. They are cheaper than the loyalist smash captains because they can't buy a storm shield. Instead, they get to take relic combi bolters like angelsbane that is S5, AP-1, Damage 2, that becomes damage 3 on imperium unit... lol. Red corsairs have a combi melta that is rapid fire 3, so 6 shots at AP -1, D2, and a melta that is str 9. Don't forget, we can do raptorial host and raid leader shenanigens now. So,deep strike down, unload with your relic bolter, charge in at +2M, smash face with your thunder hammer, then fall back to the raid leader, shoot with your relic combi, and then charge in again to smash face a second target. Sounds... tasty. lol.
13. I forgot about my favourite unit. the Lord of skulls. MOP can buff its invul to 4++, a dark Apostle can give it -1 to hit. Run it with a Lord of discordant as part of soulforged supreme command detachment and it can +2 movement. and it can use the strategem to advance and charge. So you have a 12 inch movement LOS who can potentially advance and charge. Its a waste of its good guns actually. So, use the advance and charge strategem on the lord of discordant instead. you warp time this LOS up. So, turn one, you can potentially get a double charge off with a LOD and a LOS, and the LOS gets to shoot with its guns before it charges into combat too. If you use this strategy though, your MOP or DA won't be able to keep up though. Again, this strategy got so much better now because you can actually shoot away the chaff efficiently now whereas before this, it wasn't easy. BTW, run at least 2 LOD and the LOS in your soulforged detachment. You can make one LOD warlord which halves damage on him (giving effective 24W), the other LOD is the one that has the +2 movement warlord trait, and your LOS which you warptime up. He now has to choose between 2 priority targets (a 28w LOS or a 24W effective LOD) or the LOD which gives +2 movement. lol. Give your LOD baleflamers. More expensive, but they are range 18 inches assault weapons that autohit and you are advancing with your LOD anyway. So, you will have at least 2 bale flamers and the LOS heavy shooting going off before you charge into combat. Wanna go daemon engine, lets go big! lol And abuse daemonforge. 1cp to give your big daemon engine reroll to hit and wound. Who needs VOTLW when you can abuse this instead. lol
14. See? lol just about everything is good and can be combo into a theme now. There are only a few things which didn't quite get buffed much. The landraider is still bad, so is the helldrake, and forgefiend takes too much effort to be decent. And cultists are worse. Thats about everything I believe. lol. Even Rhinos are "better" if only because with the meta now also including those pesky Vindicare assasins, keeping characters in Rhinos is a way to save them from dying to headshots. Or you could also use those metal boxes to screen your character out of line of sight. Just make sure your characters are short.. lol. (And berserkers in rhinos have always been excellent anyway).
If y’all taking a Red Corsairs Detachment, consider:
- Huron yields +1CP if he’s your Warlord for 31pts more (is that changing?) than a nekkid CL (though he has a terrible Warlord Trait (is that changing?))
- That 31pts also buys you a DH spell and a Smite
- He can take a hit from an Exitus Rifle or like a Volcano Cannon and just kick his pet in the way
It’s an eclectic package, but I have to admit, not too shabby. Even if his detachment’s a throwaway CP battery, he’s going to be useful.
In fact, he’s just five points more than an actual Sorcerer, is a threat to deep insertion units, and can cast a buff spell on the EC Oblits or WE Possessed he’s fuelling
lindsay40k wrote: If y’all taking a Red Corsairs Detachment, consider:
- Huron yields +1CP if he’s your Warlord for 31pts more (is that changing?) than a nekkid CL (though he has a terrible Warlord Trait (is that changing?))
- That 31pts also buys you a DH spell and a Smite
- He can take a hit from an Exitus Rifle or like a Volcano Cannon and just kick his pet in the way
It’s an eclectic package, but I have to admit, not too shabby. Even if his detachment’s a throwaway CP battery, he’s going to be useful.
In fact, he’s just five points more than an actual Sorcerer, is a threat to deep insertion units, and can cast a buff spell on the EC Oblits or WE Possessed he’s fuelling
I really want to. I even have a Huron model. But the other black legion warlord trait trusted warleader. you get back 1 CP on a 5+ for every strategem you use. And we now have potentially lots of CPs to use strategems on... I am considering using council of traitors to give it to a sorceror or a DA .. lol If it triggers just once, it pays for itself. And if it triggers more than once in your whole game, you are up ahead. I suppose we can go with both Huron and a trusted warleader. Lol, CSM is becoming characer spam... lol And don't forget, the halves wound warlord trait on a Lord of discordant is so tasty.
Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but did Havocs get a price increase to go with their T5 and ignore movement penalty for heavy weapons? Also, are Autocannons still a decent choice for them, or is it going to be Chaincannons or nothing? I ask because I have a bunch of Autocannon Havocs sitting around and I'd love an excuse to get them out and play them.
ZergSmasher wrote: Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but did Havocs get a price increase to go with their T5 and ignore movement penalty for heavy weapons? Also, are Autocannons still a decent choice for them, or is it going to be Chaincannons or nothing? I ask because I have a bunch of Autocannon Havocs sitting around and I'd love an excuse to get them out and play them.
They still the 14 points I believe. You can always run a batch of 3 havocs if you want to put the autocannon havocs in play. I think at least 1 if not 2 squads of reaper chain cannons are important. Your third havoc squad can have whatever you want them to have. Three reaper chain cannon squads are probably a bit of an overkill. That's 128 str 5 shots with cacophony ... lol
Just a though. With the new price reductions of termis, arent they encroaching on the pricepoint of equivalent geared chosen in a transport? If so it might be worth starting to run termis again, even without taking the new detachment bonuses in consideration.
ZergSmasher wrote: Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but did Havocs get a price increase to go with their T5 and ignore movement penalty for heavy weapons? Also, are Autocannons still a decent choice for them, or is it going to be Chaincannons or nothing? I ask because I have a bunch of Autocannon Havocs sitting around and I'd love an excuse to get them out and play them.
They still the 14 points I believe. You can always run a batch of 3 havocs if you want to put the autocannon havocs in play. I think at least 1 if not 2 squads of reaper chain cannons are important. Your third havoc squad can have whatever you want them to have. Three reaper chain cannon squads are probably a bit of an overkill. That's 128 str 5 shots with cacophony ... lol
Slaneesh chaincannon havocs are one of those scary on paper type of units. In a practical game they will be blown off the board turn 1 as a priority (turn 2 if you hide them and then move them out)
they are still marines and die like marines, T5 only does so much.
My problem with the chaincannons is the sheer costs.
It costs like 2 HBs, and shoots like 2 HBs-but at lower range.
So yea, when you take the body into account, you pump up offensive efficiency by a lot-but also dump your defensive efficiency by quite a lot, and the loss of range doubles down on lost defense as well as the lost reach.
So...are they really THAT good?
Sure, lots of firepower-but low durability per cost.
A chaincannon havoc, compared to a HB havoc has x2 the firepower at x1.42 times the cost. that's about 40% increase in relative offensive ability.
But than again, its about a 30% loss of relative durability toa HB dude.
And HB are generally received as bad.
Is a 40% increase in firepower but a loss of 30% endurace plus the loss of most range really turn a bad gun to a great one?
ZergSmasher wrote: Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but did Havocs get a price increase to go with their T5 and ignore movement penalty for heavy weapons? Also, are Autocannons still a decent choice for them, or is it going to be Chaincannons or nothing? I ask because I have a bunch of Autocannon Havocs sitting around and I'd love an excuse to get them out and play them.
They still the 14 points I believe. You can always run a batch of 3 havocs if you want to put the autocannon havocs in play. I think at least 1 if not 2 squads of reaper chain cannons are important. Your third havoc squad can have whatever you want them to have. Three reaper chain cannon squads are probably a bit of an overkill. That's 128 str 5 shots with cacophony ... lol
Slaneesh chaincannon havocs are one of those scary on paper type of units. In a practical game they will be blown off the board turn 1 as a priority (turn 2 if you hide them and then move them out)
they are still marines and die like marines, T5 only does so much.
Correct. That's why you treat them almost like they are one shot. They will get just one turn once they expose themselves but that one turn is enough. Turn 1. move 6 inches, shoot 24 inches. Any bubble wrap or chaff within 30 inches dies. Now turn 2, they get focused on and die, but they have already done their job. All the chaff and bubble wrap are dead. Now the rest of your army is free to do whatever it wants. Plasma Terminators can deep strike within 24 inches because the bubble wrap is dead. Raptorial host can deep strike within 9 inches and charge because the bubble wrap is dead. Daemon engines, berserkers, posssesed can now charge his juicy stuff, because all the chaff are dead. One squad with 4 reaper chain cannons is only 145 points. Are you seriously going to mind if it dies? Especially after it has already done its job? If any survive to shoot turn 2 or more, its a bonus. They are expected to do their job already the turn they move forward and shoot. Whether they survive after that is actually a bit irrelevant. Bonus is they do, but still not a big deal. I honestly don't see any basis of comparision between autocannon vs heavy bolter vs chain cannon havocs. They are all equally tough. If enemy wants them dead, they are dead. But output of fire wise, chain cannon is leaps ahead. Its the equivalent of close to 3 heavy bolters. And when you apply cacophony, that's when the math becomes even more skewed towards the chain cannon havocs.
A cacoponied heavy bolter havoc squad only puts out 24 shots. A cacophonied chain cannon squad puts out 64 shots...
And about the range. Yes, an opponent can take that into account. But that means he has to take into account the movement 6 as well. So... your opponent is determined to deploy everything, bubble wrap, chaff, all his army beyond 30 inches of your havocs. So, now your havocs have created a 30 inch no go zone he does not dare to approach with his chaff and fodder. While you are advancing up the board with your CSM squads, capturing objectives, etc etc. If he wants to play like that, he is already behind in the objective game. I don't know how many armies specialise in fighting at beyond 30 inches anyway. Imperium soup doesn't (because infantry squads only shoot 24, and they are terrible if they do that). CSM doesn't, chaos doesn't. orcs doesn't. Tyranids definitely don't. seriously, are there a lot of armies out there that actually stand at over 30 inches and blast you to bits ?
The chain cannon gives us a lot. But I think if we are trying to play "outshoot" our opponent, we are losing a lot of what makes CSM good. CSM isn't about being the absolute best at shooting. (At least it has never been known to be the best at shooting from my understanding).
No 2: Obliterators. They will be FAQed to cost 115 per model. But while they are 65 points, they are ridiculous. Of course, I would say that even at 115 points, they are worth it. They are an all purpose unit that can hold their own in melee now. And even at 115 points per model, the key thing is that you can stack buffs on them to make them absolutely disgusting. 3 Oblits shoot out 18 heavy shot, and you can cacophony that into 36 shots. Stack on stuff like VOTLW, etc etc, and you have a unit that can delete almost anything you point it at. And it is not easy to kill. Its a very tough unit that can hold its own against shooting and melee alike.
11. Even our terminators got better. because we can now take chainaxe and combi bolter terminators at just 29 points per model. 10 terminators marching up the board are shooting out 40 shots each turn and cost only 290 points.
Personally, I wouldn't let anyone take the new Oblits at 65pts/model. I'm certainly not going to field them at 65pts/model, and CSM is the only army I play. Their new points cost is listed quite correctly in the Shadowspear mini-dex. Anybody trying to sell me the 65-pts cost is bending the rules beyond good sportsmanship and, though I wouldn't be able to prove it, I'd assume they were lying if they said they didn't know.
And with the Termies - have I missed something? How are they only 29 points? Did their base cost go down to 26? I can't read the cost in the leaked images...
No 2: Obliterators. They will be FAQed to cost 115 per model. But while they are 65 points, they are ridiculous. Of course, I would say that even at 115 points, they are worth it. They are an all purpose unit that can hold their own in melee now. And even at 115 points per model, the key thing is that you can stack buffs on them to make them absolutely disgusting. 3 Oblits shoot out 18 heavy shot, and you can cacophony that into 36 shots. Stack on stuff like VOTLW, etc etc, and you have a unit that can delete almost anything you point it at. And it is not easy to kill. Its a very tough unit that can hold its own against shooting and melee alike.
11. Even our terminators got better. because we can now take chainaxe and combi bolter terminators at just 29 points per model. 10 terminators marching up the board are shooting out 40 shots each turn and cost only 290 points.
Personally, I wouldn't let anyone take the new Oblits at 65pts/model. I'm certainly not going to field them at 65pts/model, and CSM is the only army I play. Their new points cost is listed quite correctly in the Shadowspear mini-dex. Anybody trying to sell me the 65-pts cost is bending the rules beyond good sportsmanship and, though I wouldn't be able to prove it, I'd assume they were lying if they said they didn't know.
And with the Termies - have I missed something? How are they only 29 points? Did their base cost go down to 26? I can't read the cost in the leaked images...
Didn't it allready get verfied that this is a typo?
well, we will know for sure when its out. But I thought some of the drop in points was because they can take chain axes rather than power axes or power swords stock.
every day that passes I am more convinced that chaincannons are meant to go to 5-man CSM squads rather than havoks.
5 CSM with a chaincannon and a combi bolter on the champ parks in a midfield objective and has 10 str 4 shots and 8 str 5 shots for 87 pts. It's also a troop and can get you 8CP with the obvious red corsair trait. I can get upt to 4 losses in that squad before I lose my chaincannon and the range of the cannon matches the bolter range nicely.
On the other hand, a havoc chainreaper unit is 150ish points. It does have much bigger damage output and slightly longer range, but it costs a heavy slot, double the price and you start losing efficiency from the second wound.
I will be keeping my autohavoks, which now for 5 more points per unit get +1 toughness and are able to hide out of LoS on turn 1 and still shoot later, I will call this a win and I will be putting the chaincannons on the CSM squads.
Having reaper chain cannons on basic CSM works perfectly fine too. Nothing wrong with that. Its just that 4 on a havoc squad allows for stacking of buffs to make it really efficient. I doubt if you want to use cacophony on a 5 man CSM squad. Anyway, its a tradeoff of durability vs concentration of firepower. Either way is fine really. I can see the merits of spreading out your chain reaper cannons across your CSM squads too.
Something to chew on; I did some rough maths for Abaddon and worked out that if he's the Warlord (for the 5+ Death to the False Emperor) plus you pop Veterans of the Long War and the Khorne fight twice stratagem, he should destroy a Knight Castellan in one round of combat on average rolls. Of course, getting him there, spending lots of Command Points and all that...but how freaking cool is it that the Warmaster can tear a Knight Dominus to shreds in one round? That's just with the Talon too!
ZergSmasher wrote: Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but did Havocs get a price increase to go with their T5 and ignore movement penalty for heavy weapons? Also, are Autocannons still a decent choice for them, or is it going to be Chaincannons or nothing? I ask because I have a bunch of Autocannon Havocs sitting around and I'd love an excuse to get them out and play them.
Havocs are going up from 13 to 14 so now they're in line with Chosen. I'd say Autocannons are still a solid choice at 10 points a pop - S7 is still important for wounding light armour, D2 is nice for popping 2W models, and 48 inch range lets you stay at a comfortable distance while now being able to re-position without penalty if something escapes your line of sight. With the new detachment & associated stratagem (which allows you to shoot with a <Detachment> unit at the end of your opponent's first movement phase if you didn't go first) the range is even nicer than before, giving Auto-Havocs or Las-Havocs (depending on which you're running and what targets are available) a chance to pop an enemy unit before they get a chance to fire. The new Chaincannons are obviously good, but at 20 points a gun with 24 inch range I'd rather have them pop up in a Termite Assault Drill to ruin someone's day than start them vulnerable on the board.
For all who love Daemon Engines. If my math is somehow correct and no bigger changes in points in the new codex. For 800p give and take 20p you can get.
LoS with the cheaper canon
MoP to buff invul and sacrifice for repair
Warpsmith for more repairs and taking wounds for sacrifice.
Dark apostle for -1hit prey.
Now you have a castle moving up for 2 turns healing so the rest 1200p can do their stuff. A LoS can’t really be ignored but if you take other big or threatening stuff you give your opponent a hard choice.
On another note.
Lord of discordant and the thing he rides. Anyone think they will release only the Daemon Engine as a new unit?
So i'm trying to play catch-up and can't figure out why suddenly people are high on Kytan? What has changed with these new releases that makes him so much better? Won't he just be deleted by a Castellan like all our Renegade Knights?
Is there an "Heretical 17" CP farm that is already agreed upon as the cheapest/most efficient?
It obviously goes along the lines of :
Red Corsairs batallion 8CP
3x5 Naked CSM
But then I'm not sure which 2 HQ to take.
I would like them to be all Khorne Marked for fluff reason, so no sorcerer..
Are 2 Dark Apostle the way to go?
Is there an "Heretical 17" CP farm that is already agreed upon as the cheapest/most efficient?
It obviously goes along the lines of :
Red Corsairs batallion 8CP
3x5 Naked CSM
But then I'm not sure which 2 HQ to take.
I would like them to be all Khorne Marked for fluff reason, so no sorcerer..
Are 2 Dark Apostle the way to go?
The Kytan, after its 100pt drop, became viable right there. But with the new stuff it has gained an awful lot imo. Here's the key buffs:
Dank Apostle can give it -1 to hit, and it triggers at the start of the movement phase, so the buff is live before your opponent can shoot at it. Great stuff.
Master of Possession can give it 4++ too. these two combined are right up there with 3++, and you've spent 0cps.
It still has daefmonforge Strat, which was alway what made it amazing in CC, and surprisingly dangerous with its gun. Now, a Lord Discordant alongside it will make it hit on a 2+.
Finally, the specialist detachment: Soulforged Pack. This unlock two great Strats for it. First, 1cp means your number of wounds remaining are doubled for the purposes of damage table. Nice. But much more importantly, Infernal Engines lets it charge after advancing. The Kytan has a 2d6 advance range, meaning your warptime cast can go on something else, and now you have two horrible CC threats to ram down your opponent's throat turn 1. Finally, the detachment's warlord gives +2 to its movement. He's fast as hell, hard to hit, and rivals the gallant for CC potency, but has a big gun strapped to him and regens.
If I can spring for it, I'm seriously considering running 3 lord discordants and a Kytan in a supreme Soulforged detachment.
grouchoben wrote: The Kytan, after its 100pt drop, became viable right there. But with the new stuff it has gained an awful lot imo. Here's the key buffs:
Dank Apostle can give it -1 to hit, and it triggers at the start of the movement phase, so the buff is live before your opponent can shoot at it. Great stuff.
Master of Possession can give it 4++ too. these two combined are right up there with 3++, and you've spent 0cps.
It still has daefmonforge Strat, which was alway what made it amazing in CC, and surprisingly dangerous with its gun. Now, a Lord Discordant alongside it will make it hit on a 2+.
Finally, the specialist detachment: Soulforged Pack. This unlock two great Strats for it. First, 1cp means your number of wounds remaining are doubled for the purposes of damage table. Nice. But much more importantly, Infernal Engines lets it charge after advancing. The Kytan has a 2d6 advance range, meaning your warptime cast can go on something else, and now you have two horrible CC threats to ram down your opponent's throat turn 1. Finally, the detachment's warlord gives +2 to its movement. He's fast as hell, hard to hit, and rivals the gallant for CC potency, but has a big gun strapped to him and regens.
If I can spring for it, I'm seriously considering running 3 lord discordants and a Kytan in a supreme Soulforged detachment.
I think the ability of Sorcerers to cast useful spells on other Legions, and DPs to give and receive aura buffs to Daemons, and the potential use of the new RC relic & strat, and the firepower of a chaincannon, disrupt the notion of points-efficient CP batteries
Five minimum squads? Do you invest in making each one a mini midfield firebase? Do you make one of them a big, recyclable firemagnet?
Two cheap characters? Do you spend a bit more on them and cast Prescience & (Deity spell) on another detachment’s deathstar? Do you advance & charge an intoxicated DP? Do you drive around firing ten shots? Do you accompany a load of LDs & Defilers and give them rerolls?
I’m looking at my backlog of thirty CSMs I built and then put them at the back of the paint queue, and feel spoiled for choice. Not ideal that they’re Legion-locked, but well played, GW
I am not such a purist I need my CSM to be painted in exactly the right kind of colors. Black legion welcomes all warbands under its banner anyway. So, Mine are all painted black legion, and I go with whatever legion or renegade side I want to try out. I will just say that they just agreed to fight under black legion colors, but their traits and such are pretty much their prior legion or renegade chapter. I am not going to have multiple legions just because I want to try out everything under chaos. lol
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lindsay40k wrote: I think the ability of Sorcerers to cast useful spells on other Legions, and DPs to give and receive aura buffs to Daemons, and the potential use of the new RC relic & strat, and the firepower of a chaincannon, disrupt the notion of points-efficient CP batteries
Five minimum squads? Do you invest in making each one a mini midfield firebase? Do you make one of them a big, recyclable firemagnet?
Two cheap characters? Do you spend a bit more on them and cast Prescience & (Deity spell) on another detachment’s deathstar? Do you advance & charge an intoxicated DP? Do you drive around firing ten shots? Do you accompany a load of LDs & Defilers and give them rerolls?
I’m looking at my backlog of thirty CSMs I built and then put them at the back of the paint queue, and feel spoiled for choice. Not ideal that they’re Legion-locked, but well played, GW
Honestly, just one spiky 17, along with two vanguard/outrider/supreme command (which ever your need) is plenty of CP. That's 5+3+3+1+1 = 13. 14 if you take Huron. Honestly, that is a luxury I have never ever had. 14 CP seems like a dream already. And it sounds just about right for whatever you want to do. If you blow 4 to 5 cp per round, thats good for 3 rounds. The battle is usually decided by end of round 3. If I wanted even more, I would go with a red cosair batallion and a normal non-red cosair batallion. (probably black legion) because black legion has a ton of stuff, warlord traits, etc that are pretty thematic and I need the characters to place those warlord traits on. Unless I really just forgo VOTLW and use red corsairs all the way for CP galore.
Even 1 red corsair batallion and 1 legion battalion would give me 5+5+3+3 = 16 CP. that's ridiculous already. With huron, it would be 17. lol.
I mean, you want places to spend those CP on. Black legion lets you spend a CP to give a sorceror or a DA a warlord trait. And then you can make one or two more heroes their specialist detachment warlords for another 1 cp each. And then another 2 CP to make two specialist detachments. That's 5 cp spent before the battle even started. Spend 1 more to get 1 more relic. that's 6. lol So, we can definitely spend lots of CP if we wanted to. Some of those warlord traits are so good, and to be able to have 4 warlords in your army... (Huron, a sorceror or DA, and two more specialist detachment warlords). Its just amazing. I would totally make a backfield sorceror trusted warleader. The first time I roll a 5+ when I spend a strategem it will pay for itself. And if I had 15 or more CP to spend... lol Its definitely a net gain.
And think of the CP spam.
1. To be able to use fury of khorne to have berserkers fight 3 times for a few rounds.
2. To be able to use cacophony for a few rounds.
3. To be able to use VOTLW during shooting AND fighting phases each round.
4. To be able to spam blasphemous machines and daemonforge every round (if you have daemon engines).
5. To be able to spend kill shot and fire frenzy every round (if you have predators and hellbrutes).
6. To be able to spend 2 CP to heal your Abbadon or your nurgle DP, or your nurgle greater possessed every round (because you can!).
Doesn't even count the CP we can want to spend on our special detachment strategems ... who says we can't use up all those CPs. lol I haven't even added in reroll CPs, which we inevitably use as well.
grouchoben wrote: The Kytan, after its 100pt drop, became viable right there. But with the new stuff it has gained an awful lot imo. Here's the key buffs:
Dank Apostle can give it -1 to hit, and it triggers at the start of the movement phase, so the buff is live before your opponent can shoot at it. Great stuff.
Master of Possession can give it 4++ too. these two combined are right up there with 3++, and you've spent 0cps.
It still has daefmonforge Strat, which was alway what made it amazing in CC, and surprisingly dangerous with its gun. Now, a Lord Discordant alongside it will make it hit on a 2+.
Finally, the specialist detachment: Soulforged Pack. This unlock two great Strats for it. First, 1cp means your number of wounds remaining are doubled for the purposes of damage table. Nice. But much more importantly, Infernal Engines lets it charge after advancing. The Kytan has a 2d6 advance range, meaning your warptime cast can go on something else, and now you have two horrible CC threats to ram down your opponent's throat turn 1. Finally, the detachment's warlord gives +2 to its movement. He's fast as hell, hard to hit, and rivals the gallant for CC potency, but has a big gun strapped to him and regens.
If I can spring for it, I'm seriously considering running 3 lord discordants and a Kytan in a supreme Soulforged detachment.
To put it into a Soulforged pack you need a detachement with both LOW and HQ choice and those don't exist yet? Aren't LOW in their separate detachement anyway?
grouchoben wrote: The Kytan, after its 100pt drop, became viable right there. But with the new stuff it has gained an awful lot imo. Here's the key buffs:
If I can spring for it, I'm seriously considering running 3 lord discordants and a Kytan in a supreme Soulforged detachment.
To put it into a Soulforged pack you need a detachement with both LOW and HQ choice and those don't exist yet? Aren't LOW in their separate detachement anyway?
You can use supreme command detachment. That detachment requires you to bring at least 3 HQ. But it also allows you to bring a super heavy in it.
BoomWolf wrote: My problem with the chaincannons is the sheer costs.
It costs like 2 HBs, and shoots like 2 HBs-but at lower range.
So yea, when you take the body into account, you pump up offensive efficiency by a lot-but also dump your defensive efficiency by quite a lot, and the loss of range doubles down on lost defense as well as the lost reach.
So...are they really THAT good?
Sure, lots of firepower-but low durability per cost.
A chaincannon havoc, compared to a HB havoc has x2 the firepower at x1.42 times the cost. that's about 40% increase in relative offensive ability.
But than again, its about a 30% loss of relative durability toa HB dude.
And HB are generally received as bad.
Is a 40% increase in firepower but a loss of 30% endurace plus the loss of most range really turn a bad gun to a great one?
I fear the chaincannon might be a bit overrated.
They will absolutely require a form of transportation to not die T1. Durability per points, the Rhino isn't bad but simply doesn't contribute much to the battle overall. Termites are at a much higher cost (points and money), but they would offer damage and the ability to deliver the goods anywhere. Claws would carry ×3 squads + any characters, but then you got all your eggs in one basket.
ZergSmasher wrote: Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but did Havocs get a price increase to go with their T5 and ignore movement penalty for heavy weapons? Also, are Autocannons still a decent choice for them, or is it going to be Chaincannons or nothing? I ask because I have a bunch of Autocannon Havocs sitting around and I'd love an excuse to get them out and play them.
Havocs are going up from 13 to 14 so now they're in line with Chosen. I'd say Autocannons are still a solid choice at 10 points a pop - S7 is still important for wounding light armour, D2 is nice for popping 2W models, and 48 inch range lets you stay at a comfortable distance while now being able to re-position without penalty if something escapes your line of sight. With the new detachment & associated stratagem (which allows you to shoot with a <Detachment> unit at the end of your opponent's first movement phase if you didn't go first) the range is even nicer than before, giving Auto-Havocs or Las-Havocs (depending on which you're running and what targets are available) a chance to pop an enemy unit before they get a chance to fire. The new Chaincannons are obviously good, but at 20 points a gun with 24 inch range I'd rather have them pop up in a Termite Assault Drill to ruin someone's day than start them vulnerable on the board.
I think for "cheap" Havoks like we were usually doing this is the way to go. 24 points isn't a terrible deal.
One squad of a suicide Rotors will be almost mandatory though.
BoomWolf wrote: My problem with the chaincannons is the sheer costs.
It costs like 2 HBs, and shoots like 2 HBs-but at lower range.
So yea, when you take the body into account, you pump up offensive efficiency by a lot-but also dump your defensive efficiency by quite a lot, and the loss of range doubles down on lost defense as well as the lost reach.
So...are they really THAT good?
Sure, lots of firepower-but low durability per cost.
A chaincannon havoc, compared to a HB havoc has x2 the firepower at x1.42 times the cost. that's about 40% increase in relative offensive ability.
But than again, its about a 30% loss of relative durability toa HB dude.
And HB are generally received as bad.
Is a 40% increase in firepower but a loss of 30% endurace plus the loss of most range really turn a bad gun to a great one?
I fear the chaincannon might be a bit overrated.
They will absolutely require a form of transportation to not die T1. Durability per points, the Rhino isn't bad but simply doesn't contribute much to the battle overall. Termites are at a much higher cost (points and money), but they would offer damage and the ability to deliver the goods anywhere. Claws would carry ×3 squads + any characters, but then you got all your eggs in one basket.
It's really a tough call.
Khahbriss maybee? Or one of the flyers made out of bananaresin?
DS'ing your havocs' transports makes them a bit pointless - they're for clearing chaff, and T2 is getting late for that, with the tools chaos has now to make T1 charges. Rhino is smallest and cheapest, I think it wins unfortunately. But if your opponent can afford to shoot your rhino, you didn't being enough horrifying prospects imo.
Well, if that's really a very important issue. Can also consider taking Alpha legion and use forward operatives? 9 inch scout forward, plus 6 inch move + 24 inch range. There should be lots of fodder and chaff within 39 inches from your deployment zone...
grouchoben wrote: DS'ing your havocs' transports makes them a bit pointless - they're for clearing chaff, and T2 is getting late for that, with the tools chaos has now to make T1 charges. Rhino is smallest and cheapest, I think it wins unfortunately. But if your opponent can afford to shoot your rhino, you didn't being enough horrifying prospects imo.
Point in case, then again if a gunline knows your havocs are in there, it will not live simply for annoying you.
lindsay40k wrote: Oh, hey, Abaddon has the CHAOS LORD keyword, if that doesn’t change then he should be able to be Warlord and enable the extra Warlords strat?
You mean council of traitors? Yes, any black legion chaos lord as a warlord can enable that strategem to be used. You can then give a warlord trait to a sorceror or a DA.
I like Kytans better than LoS because of the speed, improved melee profile and reduced cost. I don't find LoS's guns to be particularly impressive; I do find them to be hideously expensive. That move from 5-4 attacks is actually pretty big to me and the points raise is nothing to sneeze at; if you're putting a LoW in, you're already devoting a lot. The cheaper they can be the better. The biggest thing I like more about the LoS is the superior wounds, but I don't think that trade is worth it.
I think the Black Legion Lord Discord (1/2 damage and probably elixir), DA and then either a second lord d (+2 move), or a sorc + a kytan is going to be a pretty legit thing. The Kytan gets a warptime, lord D gets advance and charge (or vice versa) and you've got two highly murdery entities up in the enemy front. I'd probably want to pair it with an ahirman/2xDP supreme command and then a CP battery Red Corsairs.
The problem with the Kytan is still the same: if you don't get first turn, it will die and you will be left with a lord discordant and a few support characters that won't do much.
grouchoben wrote: DS'ing your havocs' transports makes them a bit pointless - they're for clearing chaff, and T2 is getting late for that, with the tools chaos has now to make T1 charges. Rhino is smallest and cheapest, I think it wins unfortunately. But if your opponent can afford to shoot your rhino, you didn't being enough horrifying prospects imo.
A unit of Chain-Havocs for clearing chaff would be incredibly useful, yes, but having one deepstrike in T2 to, say, remove an enemy unit from an objective is nice. And they're useful for more than clearing chaff - 4 chaincannons and a combi-bolter without HQ support can do ~11 wounds to a Leman Russ Battle Tank with VotlW & Cacophony if necessary. I'll admit that's 3CP spent on a unit that would rather fire at infantry, but it shows they have the potential for versatility - I'd happily spend CP to make a unit that's already good at one task capable of dealing with a different kind of threat.
Bear in mind a Termite can fit another 5-man squad and 2 HQs/a 6-man Chosen squad and 1 HQ in alongside them, giving buffs to damage output and/or resilience depending on whether you go for a Lord, Sorc, or both - the Termite can hold its own, too.
It’s a good point that the chaingun’s ROF has got enough punch behind it to come through in a pinch. It’s a rare opponent who provides every one of our units with a perfect target.
Only it will not die. Not with -1 to hit. A castelan does not kill a kytan with -1 to hit; takes off closer to 12~ wounds. Because they get to ignore the -1 to hit, double shooting dark reapers who get doom off do better, but still only get 18 wounds or so. And the doom is going to be hardly a sure thing; you'll be in deny range. And, even if they do get it off, if they are using Yvraine a farseer and dark reapers, that is almost 600 points to kill 415 points. I mean, sure that is decent, but only decent given that the kytan is likely to live and get to act at full strength.
drakerocket wrote: Only it will not die. Not with -1 to hit. A castelan does not kill a kytan with -1 to hit; takes off closer to 12~ wounds. Because they get to ignore the -1 to hit, double shooting dark reapers who get doom off do better, but still only get 18 wounds or so. And the doom is going to be hardly a sure thing; you'll be in deny range. And, even if they do get it off, if they are using Yvraine a farseer and dark reapers, that is almost 600 points to kill 415 points. I mean, sure that is decent, but only decent given that the kytan is likely to live and get to act at full strength.
Sorry if I missed something, but how do you get the -1 to hit if you go 2nd?
drakerocket wrote: Only it will not die. Not with -1 to hit. A castelan does not kill a kytan with -1 to hit; takes off closer to 12~ wounds. Because they get to ignore the -1 to hit, double shooting dark reapers who get doom off do better, but still only get 18 wounds or so. And the doom is going to be hardly a sure thing; you'll be in deny range. And, even if they do get it off, if they are using Yvraine a farseer and dark reapers, that is almost 600 points to kill 415 points. I mean, sure that is decent, but only decent given that the kytan is likely to live and get to act at full strength.
Sorry if I missed something, but how do you get the -1 to hit if you go 2nd?
drakerocket wrote: Only it will not die. Not with -1 to hit. A castelan does not kill a kytan with -1 to hit; takes off closer to 12~ wounds. Because they get to ignore the -1 to hit, double shooting dark reapers who get doom off do better, but still only get 18 wounds or so. And the doom is going to be hardly a sure thing; you'll be in deny range. And, even if they do get it off, if they are using Yvraine a farseer and dark reapers, that is almost 600 points to kill 415 points. I mean, sure that is decent, but only decent given that the kytan is likely to live and get to act at full strength.
Sorry if I missed something, but how do you get the -1 to hit if you go 2nd?
drakerocket wrote: Only it will not die. Not with -1 to hit. A castelan does not kill a kytan with -1 to hit; takes off closer to 12~ wounds. Because they get to ignore the -1 to hit, double shooting dark reapers who get doom off do better, but still only get 18 wounds or so. And the doom is going to be hardly a sure thing; you'll be in deny range. And, even if they do get it off, if they are using Yvraine a farseer and dark reapers, that is almost 600 points to kill 415 points. I mean, sure that is decent, but only decent given that the kytan is likely to live and get to act at full strength.
Sorry if I missed something, but how do you get the -1 to hit if you go 2nd?
The dark apostle ^^
To clarify, the Dark Apostle's Prayers happen at the START OF THE BATTLE ROUND-so that's player one turn one, even if you're not that player.
I feel like the idea of a Havok Squad being given Chainguns starts to look better alongside the 'Punishing Volley' strat:
'Punishing Volley (1 CP): Use at the end of your opponents first movement phase if you did not go first. Pick a DEVASTATION BATTERY unit from your army. That unit may shoot as if it were the shooting phase.'
I don't know that it's worth planning around, but there's a certain appeal to the psychological effect on an opponent that knows this may be coming - they'd have to make very different decisions in their movement phase potentially.
You aren't having to feel the unit was a complete waste if it get's shot to pieces in the first turn (and it may not, if everything has moved to hide from it to avoid the strat), because it still got to get that first volley out.
I always deepstriked my oblis, but now with all the bew options im seriously thinking abouth starting theem on the board front and center. Make them al and get the da for a safe -2 to hit, if you go second give them cover and uses the awesome awesome volley stratagem to punish something that comes in range. Range might be a problem so i would also have a las/ml havoc squad for volley if the enemy doesn't get in range with anything
Nightlord1987 wrote: I like the idea of taking 3×2 units of Oblits, probably as The Purge with my Death Guard and Nurgle Daemons.
Get stuck in combat with some Nurglings and just blast away indiscriminately at the little lords.
Also, doesnt the Devastation battery (or whatever) seem redundant if you are Iron Warriors?
That's actually a really cool idea. lol
On the devastation battery detachment. Yeah, its the same as Iron warriors, but even on iron warriors that thing about buildings hardly ever get used. Its the other strategem that is good. The one where on 1 cp, if you didn't go first, you get to shoot one unit at the opponent's army after the end of his movement phase.
So "You finished moving and thought you could shoot my lascannon havoc squad off the board before I have the chance to do anything? Here's a strategem that lets me shoot even before you shoot even though you went first! Hah!"
It seems that combi-plasma terminators are now extremely affordable since all these items have come down in price. 26+1+11 = 38 for chain axe+combi plasma now? That's not that high a price considering the firepower they can bring. Alpha Legion ones will be especially durable. Take a squad of 10 slaaneshi ones and deploy it up close with the strat, or just take units of 5 to be high damage mid fielders. Probably put in a chainfist per 5.
Well, Alpha legion trait works only over 12 inches. But with your terminators, if you are using plasma, you kind of want to get within 12 inches, and then the Alpha legion trait doesn't work. :( But yup, deploying a unit of terminators doesn't sound half bad now, with their drop in points. And if you go cheap for the Abalative wounds on your first or second terminator, its just 29 points. Then you won't feel so bad about them dying until maybe the third or fourth terminator. Actually, even combi bolter chain axe terminators aren't really bad. still str 5 -1AP in melee and shoots out 4 shots per turn per model. This is even while moving because of the new bolter discipline.
Alpha legion terminators would work well if you are marching them up the board.
So on average a lord discordant will do 13-14 wounds to knight when he charges and has elixir + daemon forge.
(Note I averaged d3 damage to 2 for my ease, and also have not included mecha tendrils because they are basically pointless)
Spear: 5 attacks * 35/36 (hitting on 2s, rerolling)4.866111 * 8/9 (wounding on 3’s re-rolling) = 4.321 wounds * 2/3 (knight has 5+ armor save) = 2.88 * 2 =
5.71 damage
Mounts claws: 5 attacks * 35/36 (hitting on 2s, rerolling)4.866111 * 3/4 (wounding on 4’s re-trolling) = 3.6458 * 2/3 (knight has 5+ save)= 2.43 * 2 =
4.86 damage
Techno virus injector
1 * 35/36( you know the drill) .97 hits * 8/9 = .864 wounds. Knight get no save so it’s d3 + d3 mortal wounds damage for an average of 4 damage for ,864 * 4 =
3.46 damage (note this damage is more all or nothing then previous averages. You’ll either not wound (thereby doing nothing) or expect and avenge of 4 wounds)
So assuming you hit with the injector, the lord will do a likely 14 wounds to a knight. That’s pretty good for likely 2 CP and a 160 point model with relic. Even assuming the lord fails to killl the knight, his crack back swings are unlikely to be very dangerous (as the knight will likely be degraded, and the lord has his -1 to hit aura.)
I really think running at least two of this guy will become the norm, as the mecha tendral relic is also very good.
The mecha tendril becomes good when you are facing hoards and you take the mecha tendril relic. Instead of just 2 attacks, the number of attacks on your mechatendrisl become the number of all models in base contact with your LOD (and it has a big base!). So if a bunch of orcs or tyranids, or even guardsmen tried to crowd around you and beat you to death, your relic mechatendrils snake out in all directions and do 20 attacks if you have 20 models around you lol.
I have been thinking about the new Dark Apostle. He seems to work best in a foot slogging army. The key thing is that his prayer go off at the start of the turn, so he is actually better with protective prayers rather than offensive ones.
He has the -1 to hit prayer of course. But he has an aura prayer that gives all all legion models within 6 inches a 5++ invul save. So, if you put relatively fragile models within 6 inches of him, they get a 5++ This is not bad. And then at the start of the turn when you know everything on your side is going to charge, you switch to using the default dark zealotry that makes all units within 6 inches of you reroll hits in close combat. And then if everything around you is dead or you need to turn yourself into a fighty hero in a pinch, then you go mark of khorne and cast the prayer that gives +2 strength on yourself. I think combined with your black mace, or cursed cruzius, you are going to be at str 9 lol. You will be able to wound even knights on a 3+ by then. And fury of khorne does let you attack twice. So, yeah, you can suddenly give an unsuspecting knight a big scare. All three prayers can be taken if you go Khornite dark apostle.
And it just happens that berzerkers are the most fragile, but killy things that would love a 5++ invul save too. So, you surround your DA with berserkers. Start of turn, the 5++ aura goes up, and there is nothing the opponent can do about it. Then charge up the field with your Khorne berserkers. Whether you go renegade red corsairs for the advance and charge, or alpha legion so that you can forward operative both the DA and the Berserkers up the field is up to you. And incidentally, Khorne berserkers love that reroll to hit aura as well. (They always have). And to make it fluffy, a DA must have his followers right? So run a screen of cultists in front of your DA and berserkers and take that specialist detachment. The whole mass can charge down one flank screaming crazily... lol
Just make sure you aren't facing Vindicare Assasins... (every strategy has its weakness right? you can't have everything lol).
grouchoben wrote: DS'ing your havocs' transports makes them a bit pointless - they're for clearing chaff, and T2 is getting late for that, with the tools chaos has now to make T1 charges. Rhino is smallest and cheapest, I think it wins unfortunately. But if your opponent can afford to shoot your rhino, you didn't being enough horrifying prospects imo.
I disagree that they are specifically for clearing chaf. Can they? Absolutely! But they also shred almost any hard target as well. A termite with two units of these from a legion marked slaanesh will barf out 96 shots, 64 of which will be +1 to wound with VoTLW. You get them near a reroll like abby or Kharne, or prescience them and use a lord and things just die. It's a bit expensive, but that is something that will really factor into how your opponent plays. because when they arrive they could end the game.
Actually form a devastation battery you can get reroll 1's for both wounding and hitting, meaning the prescience (or DA) + lord combo could be even better.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
StrayIight wrote: I feel like the idea of a Havok Squad being given Chainguns starts to look better alongside the 'Punishing Volley' strat:
'Punishing Volley (1 CP): Use at the end of your opponents first movement phase if you did not go first. Pick a DEVASTATION BATTERY unit from your army. That unit may shoot as if it were the shooting phase.'
I don't know that it's worth planning around, but there's a certain appeal to the psychological effect on an opponent that knows this may be coming - they'd have to make very different decisions in their movement phase potentially.
You aren't having to feel the unit was a complete waste if it get's shot to pieces in the first turn (and it may not, if everything has moved to hide from it to avoid the strat), because it still got to get that first volley out.
Food for thought.
Especially with forward operatives. Move these fellas 9" toward center board and wait for them to make a mistake and move something within range.
I honestly think I'm going to give triple havocs a serious go. 2x chainguns, 1x lascannon. I really like the lascannon with punishing volley.
...And blasphemous as it is to dare say, I think I actually like a rhino for the two chaingun squads. If I lose first turn, the opponent has to carve open my rhino to get at the havocs. Given that the army is now going to be nearly all 3+ (or 2+) and we'll have CP, embanked positions looks very appealing; that will be a lot of 2+ armor saves they'll have to get through to touch them. If I get first turn, means I get to pop them up an extra 3 inches, then move, so 33" threat range. I'll then probably stick two of my CSM squads into the rhino and go drive over to an objective. Rhino gets good mileage out of bolter discipline to boot with it's two combis. This means my VotLW and EC can be focused on anti-vehicle or anti-infantry as needed.
With the DA taking such an extreme swerve to footslogger synergy and effectively taking up three spaces if he does embark, are paired Berzerkers vans now going to slum it with a CL & EC?
...I did ruminate on a way to deliver Berzerkers on T1 that can also enable the DA to ride with them. Pop the prayer at the start of the round, jump in a Rhino, drive up to the enemy, use both barrels of a combi-Plasma and aim to roll low. If you Warptime, this can have you charging from within the enemy DZ on the first turn. Aaaand we did just gain a means to clear screens...
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, Alpha legion trait works only over 12 inches. But with your terminators, if you are using plasma, you kind of want to get within 12 inches, and then the Alpha legion trait doesn't work. :( But yup, deploying a unit of terminators doesn't sound half bad now, with their drop in points. And if you go cheap for the Abalative wounds on your first or second terminator, its just 29 points. Then you won't feel so bad about them dying until maybe the third or fourth terminator. Actually, even combi bolter chain axe terminators aren't really bad. still str 5 -1AP in melee and shoots out 4 shots per turn per model. This is even while moving because of the new bolter discipline.
Alpha legion terminators would work well if you are marching them up the board.
I'm not too worried about the 12" on the trait. They can be 12" from the front line, and still protected from the big guns and knights that are further back. And of course if they move within 12", they're gonna wreck whatever is near them. If the opponent moves within 12" to double tap with their own plasma it'll hurt, but they'll need a LOT of plasma to wipe you. And next turn you'll shoot back and then charge them.
There are very few things that want to be within 12" of combi-plas terminators.
What are people's thoughts on a unit of 5 Chaos Marines with 1 Plasma Gun/ Champion Combi-Plasma with Chain Axe and a unit of 5 Havocs with 4 Chaincannons and a champion with a plasma gun packed into a rhino.
There would be 2 of these in a fast assault based army with Maulerfiends, Lord Discordant, Daemon Prince and 2 Decimators.
Black Legion, for the record.
Should I just skip basic Marines all together and just use 3 units of Cultists and try to pick up 5 Chosen with 5 Plasma Guns?
I'm really looking for the best way to run basic Marines here. I know they aren't the greatest, but I would like them to be able to put some work in.
Or embark a berzerker squad instead. The havocs get out and move off, the berzerkers get on. They can hide out of line of sight behind the Rhino 1st turn as well. Berzerkers love Rhinos, and they are absolutely scary in close combat.
BTW, the venoncrawler is growing on me. It is only 130 points. It can pair up with the Lord of Discordant to move advance up the field while firing its guns (2d3 str 8 shots) being affected. The LOD can give it +2 movement so that its movement 12. And yeah, if you charge it into combat with the advance and charge strategem, and it subsequently blows up, it blows up on a 5+ and causes d3 mortal wounds to everyone within 6 inches.lol
You know what's the challenge so far? Making Abaddon work. Because he is relatively slow (foot slogger). He is either in a long ranged super shooty list or maybe if you deep strike him in together with a bunch of shooty stuff (oblits and terminators). The deep strike thing is ok, except it probably takes up half your army in points, and then you end up facing the opponent with only half your army until Abby and friends show up. And there is also the issue that maybe the opponent can screen you out so that you have no very good places to deep strike into.
I do like Berzerkers, but I'm trying to keep my Black Legion army completely undivided.
Also, I'm trying to make my troop choices work for me. Berzerkers are still Elites are they not?
The Venomcrawler looks ok, but I painted up 2 maulerfiends and 2 Helldrakes back in 6th edition and almost pulled my hair out painting that much gold trim. I'd like to get some use out of them again.
Brutus_Apex wrote: I do like Berzerkers, but I'm trying to keep my Black Legion army completely undivided.
Also, I'm trying to make my troop choices work for me. Berzerkers are still Elites are they not?
The Venomcrawler looks ok, but I painted up 2 maulerfiends and 2 Helldrakes back in 6th edition and almost pulled my hair out painting that much gold trim. I'd like to get some use out of them again.
It looks fine. as long as your chain cannon squad can obliterate the chaff, your daemon engines should be able to go in and wreck face. They will have too much to worry about to target your troops. I mean, when you have chain cannon squads, decimaters, helldrakes, maulerfiends, on the field, somehow, I think a basic squad would be a very low priority. lol
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am starting to think that the most competitive build will have Alpha legion somehow. CSM now seems to work best at mid range. Alpha legion gives our infantry protection in the -1 to hit. And we can forward operatives literally our whole army up if we are willing to blow enough command points.
One unit of reaper chain cannon squad is scary enough as it is. But imagine if you scout move up 3 squads of 20 berzerkers, and two squads of chain cannons, and 1 DA for 6 CP in forward operatives. Your DA uses the prayer to give a chain cannon squad -1 to hit so its -2 to hit. Follow up with a flying Daemon prince or two for warptime and prescience and to give reroll 1 to your chain reaper squads.
First turn your chain cannons obliterate all the chaff, and one 20 man zerker squad gets warptimed into whatever is left. He is now facing 60 berserkers and he has no fodder left... lol And if he placed his heavies further back, then they might be over 12 inches of the berserkers and and then -1 to hit. They can move closer of course, but do you really want to move closer to 60 berserkers and a flying DP or two? lol. Second turn, when all 3 squads of your berserkers and the flying DP is in combat, you use your DA's zealot aura to give all units within 6 inches reroll to hit in melee...
Its sounds really tasty.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The shooty version.
Scout move up 1 unit of 30 cultist fodder, 2 chain cannon squads and 2 Obliterator squads, and 2 DA for 7 CP. The whole shebag moves and then empties all their guns. The DA gave two obliterator squad -1, so both are -2 to hit. (I don;t think prayers are limited to one type of prayer per round, we shall see). You can have two flying daemon princes, one to cast prescience and another to cast miasma of pestilence to make a -2 to hit now a -3! to hit. Everything within 37 to 39 inches of your deployment zone may potentially be wiped out or decimated. His turn, you have your cultists just in front of your shooty units. So unless he can shoot your 2 squads of reaper cannons and 2 squads of oblits off the table. You will get to shoot back yet again.
Brutus_Apex wrote: I do like Berzerkers, but I'm trying to keep my Black Legion army completely undivided.
Also, I'm trying to make my troop choices work for me. Berzerkers are still Elites are they not?
The Venomcrawler looks ok, but I painted up 2 maulerfiends and 2 Helldrakes back in 6th edition and almost pulled my hair out painting that much gold trim. I'd like to get some use out of them again.
It looks fine. as long as your chain cannon squad can obliterate the chaff, your daemon engines should be able to go in and wreck face. They will have too much to worry about to target your troops. I mean, when you have chain cannon squads, decimaters, helldrakes, maulerfiends, on the field, somehow, I think a basic squad would be a very low priority. lol
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am starting to think that the most competitive build will have Alpha legion somehow. CSM now seems to work best at mid range. Alpha legion gives our infantry protection in the -1 to hit. And we can forward operatives literally our whole army up if we are willing to blow enough command points.
One unit of reaper chain cannon squad is scary enough as it is. But imagine if you scout move up 3 squads of 20 berzerkers, and two squads of chain cannons, and 1 DA for 6 CP in forward operatives. Your DA uses the prayer to give a chain cannon squad -1 to hit so its -2 to hit. Follow up with a flying Daemon prince or two for warptime and prescience and to give reroll 1 to your chain reaper squads.
First turn your chain cannons obliterate all the chaff, and one 20 man zerker squad gets warptimed into whatever is left. He is now facing 60 berserkers and he has no fodder left... lol And if he placed his heavies further back, then they might be over 12 inches of the berserkers and and then -1 to hit. They can move closer of course, but do you really want to move closer to 60 berserkers and a flying DP or two? lol. Second turn, when all 3 squads of your berserkers and the flying DP is in combat, you use your DA's zealot aura to give all units within 6 inches reroll to hit in melee...
Its sounds really tasty.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The shooty version.
Scout move up 1 unit of 30 cultist fodder, 2 chain cannon squads and 2 Obliterator squads, and 2 DA for 7 CP. The whole shebag moves and then empties all their guns. The DA gave two obliterator squad -1, so both are -2 to hit. (I don;t think prayers are limited to one type of prayer per round, we shall see). You can have two flying daemon princes, one to cast prescience and another to cast miasma of pestilence to make a -2 to hit now a -3! to hit. Everything within 37 to 39 inches of your deployment zone may potentially be wiped out or decimated. His turn, you have your cultists just in front of your shooty units. So unless he can shoot your 2 squads of reaper cannons and 2 squads of oblits off the table. You will get to shoot back yet again.
Those 60 berzerkers are gonna need something to deal with morale problems. And that something is Abaddon.
Hmmm, maybe we have finally found a use for our dear warmaster.... lol He will need to catch up though. He is not alpha legion, so he cannot be forward operatived. At least his morale immunity aura is 12 inches, so that's quite large.
You know, maybe its possible to combine the two forward operative lists. Just spend even more CP. forward operative everything forward. Oblits, havocs, berserkers, DA. Then shoot AND warptime one squad into combat. He has to decide if he shoots the Oblits, the zerkers, or the chain cannon squad. Turn two, shoot again and charge the zerkers and the DP in. Maybe you can even warp time Abaddon into charge range on turn two .... lol\
You will need alot of CP though. So, good thing we have our spiky 17... lol
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmmm, maybe we have finally found a use for our dear warmaster.... lol He will need to catch up though. He is not alpha legion, so he cannot be forward operatived. At least his morale immunity aura is 12 inches, so that's quite large.
You know, maybe its possible to combine the two forward operative lists. Just spend even more CP. forward operative everything forward. Oblits, havocs, berserkers, DA. Then shoot AND warptime one squad into combat. He has to decide if he shoots the Oblits, the zerkers, or the chain cannon squad. Turn two, shoot again and charge the zerkers and the DP in. Maybe you can even warp time Abaddon into charge range on turn two .... lol\
You will need alot of CP though. So, good thing we have our spiky 17... lol
Yeah there's not really any good option to give forward deployed units fearless on turn 1 if you don't go first. You're relying on the stratagem to hold it together, and relying on them only being able to do catastrophic damage to 1 squad. If you go first, you can warptime Abaddon up to cover them with his aura. He's worth getting in there on his own offensive merits too.
I do like the idea of just forward deploying a huge amount of the list. Probably will need a red corsair battalion to afford it though!
So...let's see
Brazen Beasts with Warp Talons in a Raptorial Host. You're more likely to make the charge, and it'd be easier to get off the AP-4 on the charge thing.
Didn't really see that discussed but I think it does have a small amount of merit. Not sure if it's worth it though.
Well, I tried to make such a list. I can't fit everything into it .. lol. You have to choose if you want to go shooty with cultist line (skip the zerkers) or fighty with zerkers and skip the Oblits.
If you really insist on having all elements. You are probably looking at just 1 zerker squad, 1 or 2 chain cannon squads and 1 Oblit squad.
The chain cannon squad is relatively cheap. But the zerker squad is over 300 points and so is the Oblit squad (based on 115 per model). You simply can't easily spam multiple units of both. lol
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So...let's see
Brazen Beasts with Warp Talons in a Raptorial Host. You're more likely to make the charge, and it'd be easier to get off the AP-4 on the charge thing.
Didn't really see that discussed but I think it does have a small amount of merit. Not sure if it's worth it though.
I think you'd rather be World Eaters than Brazen Beasts, generally. +1A and access to Veterans of the Long War trumps two extra points of AP (on less than half of your attacks).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So...let's see
Brazen Beasts with Warp Talons in a Raptorial Host. You're more likely to make the charge, and it'd be easier to get off the AP-4 on the charge thing.
Didn't really see that discussed but I think it does have a small amount of merit. Not sure if it's worth it though.
I think you'd rather be World Eaters than Brazen Beasts, generally. +1A and access to Veterans of the Long War trumps two extra points of AP (on less than half of your attacks).
Raptors actually benefit more from Brazen Beasts than warp talons do. And Warp Talons only get a minimal advantage from the extra AP against most targets. Raptors aren't as good, but they are a lot cheaper!
Overall though, how does a Host Raptorial bomb compare to just running a daemons bloodletter bomb?
Raptors actually benefit more from Brazen Beasts than warp talons do. And Warp Talons only get a minimal advantage from the extra AP against most targets. Raptors aren't as good, but they are a lot cheaper!
Overall though, how does a Host Raptorial bomb compare to just running a daemons bloodletter bomb?
I think a bloodletter bomb is alot more choppy. But Raptorial bomb (if made up of raptors) is more about being able to bring some plasma pistols or plasma guns, so you can shoot and then charge in. If you really want to kill something, you are probably relying more on the negative morale, kill 1 or 3, and force them to take morale tests so that the rest run away. By themselves, raptors aren't very choppy because their weapons are just chainswords with 0 AP. If its a warptalon bomb, then its alot more choppy, can be as nearly as choppy as a bloodletter bomb, but warp talons are very expensive in points. The only good thing is that you can't overwatch them on the turn they deep strike in.
The key difference in the two bombs is Overwatch immunity and Legion/Deity bonuses. It’s niche, because they’re both charging from outside 9” and thus don’t care about flamers and the like, but WTs can perfectly do the aggressive tanking on things like T’au castles and factions with improved OW hit rolls. If a unit’s guns kills 11 Bletters, it’s done a pretty good job of speedbumping them. WTs never worry about being shot as they tag units.
OTOH, the Bletters can accompany charge re-rolls for Maulers and LDs, which comes with DTW coverage (Karanak) or Knight-killing (Axeprince). And the lovely Possession Stratagem, which can kill a carefully concealed support psyker (marvellous psyop).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So...let's see
Brazen Beasts with Warp Talons in a Raptorial Host. You're more likely to make the charge, and it'd be easier to get off the AP-4 on the charge thing.
Didn't really see that discussed but I think it does have a small amount of merit. Not sure if it's worth it though.
I think you'd rather be World Eaters than Brazen Beasts, generally. +1A and access to Veterans of the Long War trumps two extra points of AP (on less than half of your attacks).
VotLW would never get used on Warp Talons anyway unless the target was T8. Otherwise, the difference in performance is minimal to the point that VotLW is basically always used on a shooting unit.
Also the fact that World Eaters need to make the charge is bad and that's why they're one of the worst Legions, whereas Brazen Beasts are on the first combat round.
The Blood Altar is also interesting, especially since they hinted that it could be summoned. You can use an unaligned MoP, use the strat to give him all the marks for a turn, use Incursion to drop the altar somewhere in the midfield. Combine him with Cursed Earth and you've got 3++ Khornate Daemon Engines. Still debating the best use for this, Lord of Skulls is the fairly obvious one, but he doesn't like to sit still, neither does the Ravager, Decimators with Butcher Cannons are pretty cheap though and are quite happy to camp out.
xeen wrote: Has anyone played a game with running 3 of the new Oblitorators yet?
Yes they're expensive but amazing when you pioe on buffs. Played Alpha Legion and a MOP, dropped in turn 2 killed 2 leman russ with EC, VotLW. They then killed other armour, iirc 2 bastalisks and a Chimera. With cursed earth and AL trait they're reasonably tough, one managed to survive till the end.
Needs more testing but I think they might work even at 115 points.
Also devestation battery lascannon havocks are funny. Shot 9 wounds off a leman russ befire the game had started!
Yep ran a squad this last weekend during a tournament of 3. 345 pts is really expensive but oh my god can they just cut the heart out of an opponent.
First game vs space marines with 2 repulsers and a 10 man hellblaster squad he focused everything on my lord of skulls (which he got down to 4 wounds). The oblits stepped up, cast warptime and delightful agonizes on them to get a bit closer, stood next to abadon, and i rolled 6,6,5 giving them str 9, ap-3, 3d. They did 33 unsaved wounds to the first repulser, then fired again wiping the 10 man hellblaster squad out with kills to spare.
Next turn i rolled 4,3,3 so str 8, ap-2, 2d and i still managed to kill the 2nd repulsar outright leaving just a contemptor dreadnought left to deal with the lord of skulls (which had healed up to 12 wounds left so it was perfectly fine just going on a rampage with little that could hurt it).
2nd game they killed 7 biovores the turn they dropped in, then killed 8 heavy weapons teams in their next shooting phase (wasnt anything left in range that they needed to slaughter so goodbye weapon teams).
I am a huge fan of Possessed and I always field at least one unit of 10 even if they have been not great compared to Berserkers... but the new rules got me thinking.
10 Possessed + Greater Possessed + Herald get S7 base. Add a Master of Possession with Shepherd of the True Faith Warlord Trait and the Daemonkin Ritualist Detachment. Suddenly you can use the Vessels for the Neverborn stratagem and have - potentially - up to S8 AP -2 40 attacks generating mortal wounds on each 6. And that is without additional tricks such as Boon of Change, Mutated Invigoration, etc. Daemon Prince, Exalted Champion and a Dark Apostle could make this bomb devastating on close combat.
ochobits wrote: I am a huge fan of Possessed and I always field at least one unit of 10 even if they have been not great compared to Berserkers... but the new rules got me thinking.
10 Possessed + Greater Possessed + Herald get S7 base. Add a Master of Possession with Shepherd of the True Faith Warlord Trait and the Daemonkin Ritualist Detachment. Suddenly you can use the Vessels for the Neverborn stratagem and have - potentially - up to S8 AP -2 40 attacks generating mortal wounds on each 6. And that is without additional tricks such as Boon of Change, Mutated Invigoration, etc. Daemon Prince, Exalted Champion and a Dark Apostle could make this bomb devastating on close combat.
What are your thoughts on this? Could it work?
20ppm footslogging infantry with nothing but a 5++ to protect them. Outlook not look good.
ochobits wrote: I am a huge fan of Possessed and I always field at least one unit of 10 even if they have been not great compared to Berserkers... but the new rules got me thinking.
10 Possessed + Greater Possessed + Herald get S7 base. Add a Master of Possession with Shepherd of the True Faith Warlord Trait and the Daemonkin Ritualist Detachment. Suddenly you can use the Vessels for the Neverborn stratagem and have - potentially - up to S8 AP -2 40 attacks generating mortal wounds on each 6. And that is without additional tricks such as Boon of Change, Mutated Invigoration, etc. Daemon Prince, Exalted Champion and a Dark Apostle could make this bomb devastating on close combat.
What are your thoughts on this? Could it work?
if you mostly play casual/narrative games yes can work, outside of it it is not.
ochobits wrote: I am a huge fan of Possessed and I always field at least one unit of 10 even if they have been not great compared to Berserkers... but the new rules got me thinking.
10 Possessed + Greater Possessed + Herald get S7 base. Add a Master of Possession with Shepherd of the True Faith Warlord Trait and the Daemonkin Ritualist Detachment. Suddenly you can use the Vessels for the Neverborn stratagem and have - potentially - up to S8 AP -2 40 attacks generating mortal wounds on each 6. And that is without additional tricks such as Boon of Change, Mutated Invigoration, etc. Daemon Prince, Exalted Champion and a Dark Apostle could make this bomb devastating on close combat.
What are your thoughts on this? Could it work?
if you mostly play casual/narrative games yes can work, outside of it it is not.
Yes, that is my case - and I don't think I'm ever playing competitive. But I think I got your point: delivery would be the flaw of that list.
ochobits wrote: I am a huge fan of Possessed and I always field at least one unit of 10 even if they have been not great compared to Berserkers... but the new rules got me thinking.
10 Possessed + Greater Possessed + Herald get S7 base. Add a Master of Possession with Shepherd of the True Faith Warlord Trait and the Daemonkin Ritualist Detachment. Suddenly you can use the Vessels for the Neverborn stratagem and have - potentially - up to S8 AP -2 40 attacks generating mortal wounds on each 6. And that is without additional tricks such as Boon of Change, Mutated Invigoration, etc. Daemon Prince, Exalted Champion and a Dark Apostle could make this bomb devastating on close combat.
What are your thoughts on this? Could it work?
if you mostly play casual/narrative games yes can work, outside of it it is not.
Yes, that is my case - and I don't think I'm ever playing competitive. But I think I got your point: delivery would be the flaw of that list.
Make them Alpha Legion and you get to do 9" move before the battle for 1CP. Then you move 7". Then cast Warp time on them for another 7". That moves you up 23" turn 1 which could plausibly put you within charge range if your opponent isn´t careful. Take a Dark Apostle for when you don´t get first turn to make them an additional -1 to hit.
Now this all depends on spending command points and succeeding with spells and prayers but if you have 20 Possessed lying around you might as well try it. Should be fun.
Ok so for anyone that does have a new book or leak, I wanna run a Deamon Forged list with 3 Lord Discordants. What is the best build for this. Mark/Legion/Relic/WLTrait? And would a Supreme Command Detachment be good or use them in a Battalion? The rest of the list would be Maulerfiends and Venomcrawlers, besides the Basic CSM troops and possibly Oblits and Havocs.
I have heard talk about Marking one Nurgle, with A abilitiy to half damage. Any help iss appreciated.
ochobits wrote: I am a huge fan of Possessed and I always field at least one unit of 10 even if they have been not great compared to Berserkers... but the new rules got me thinking.
10 Possessed + Greater Possessed + Herald get S7 base. Add a Master of Possession with Shepherd of the True Faith Warlord Trait and the Daemonkin Ritualist Detachment. Suddenly you can use the Vessels for the Neverborn stratagem and have - potentially - up to S8 AP -2 40 attacks generating mortal wounds on each 6. And that is without additional tricks such as Boon of Change, Mutated Invigoration, etc. Daemon Prince, Exalted Champion and a Dark Apostle could make this bomb devastating on close combat.
What are your thoughts on this? Could it work?
if you mostly play casual/narrative games yes can work, outside of it it is not.
Yes, that is my case - and I don't think I'm ever playing competitive. But I think I got your point: delivery would be the flaw of that list.
Make them Alpha Legion and you get to do 9" move before the battle for 1CP. Then you move 7". Then cast Warp time on them for another 7". That moves you up 23" turn 1 which could plausibly put you within charge range if your opponent isn´t careful. Take a Dark Apostle for when you don´t get first turn to make them an additional -1 to hit.
Now this all depends on spending command points and succeeding with spells and prayers but if you have 20 Possessed lying around you might as well try it. Should be fun.
Yup. I run Alpha Legion and used that trick the other day. The only problem is that the other units - Greater Possessed, Herald and Daemon Prince - couldn't follow the same pace and got late to the party, so all the Possessed were dead. But it was fun indeed .
Looking at Lightning Claw terminators. Still not much good, right? I mean a single LC plus Combi-bolter is cheaper and will probably do more damage...
Terminator heavy weapons much good?
I’d like to build Abaddon and four Termie squads, one for each deity... can’t think of much to give them variety and theming. I guess plasma Slaaneshi, bolter Nurgle, and gimmicky flamer Tzeentch & Melta Khorne? They won’t be great, but I’d only take twenty terminators in a narrative type game anyway.
I'm floating over the order button for a Kytan as I think he and 3x Lord Discordant are undeniable threats that will draw all fire, while the other 1000pts of army is likely relatively unmolested.
Am I right in thinking the only way to get Kytan in the Daemon Engine special formation is via Supreme Command, as someone mentioned earlier? What Legion would be best for that detachment?
The trick to tau castles is target priority and smart weapons useage.
Tau players keep their drones for tanking big guns aimed at their suits typically. A few things to consiser - target the fire warriors first. Their "help" in overwatch is what really makes tau overwatch so good. They need to die first.
Then target drones properly. If you are firing big guns (las cannon or the like) fire at the suits. But anti infantry weapons can do a number on the drones themselves. Try and kill them 2nd.
Large bike squads with mos, cheap term squads with mos, and oblits with mos can do wonders. Drop that oblit squad in with a sorcerer, cast delightful agonies and prescience on them, and let the dice roll dictate who your going to shoot. With the bikes and terms remember we only want to be 24" away, no closer. This lets us get our full shooting without letting the fire warriors get their double tap stuff.
Mortal wounds generated by psycic powers can not be passed off to a drone. The faq says that shooting and melee attacks are considered attacks for the drone wound pass off. Psycic attacks are neirher of these.
Good luck. Without an idea of what your taking its kinda hard to do more than general advice.
topaxygouroun i wrote: 20ppm footslogging infantry with nothing but a 5++ to protect them. Outlook not look good.
It's sketchy for sure.
However, under the right circumstances, they could be dead hard. Alpha Legion + Prayer to make them -2 to hit if you lose initiative, with a 2+ save for Prepared Positions. In that case the squad is probably in good shape to survive the first turn with a majority of the unit still intact. If you get first turn and they're Khorne you have some interesting options given that you can summon the Altar of Blood. An unaligned MoP can use the strat to get all the marks, summon the Altar, put down Cursed Earth and now that squad is rolling with a 3++.
However, that is a lot of infrastructure built around a single unit. Of course, you can put in a lot of other Khorne-flavored daemonic shenanigans into the army to take advantage of that same infrastructure if you want.
Also, more and more, with the various new prayers and auras and such, Warptime feels like it's losing a little luster, since it feels like I'm taking a buffed unit and launching them out of the buff zone to leave their butt in the wind. The Lord of Skulls is one of the few models I've been comfortable doing this with.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I'm floating over the order button for a Kytan as I think he and 3x Lord Discordant are undeniable threats that will draw all fire, while the other 1000pts of army is likely relatively unmolested.
Am I right in thinking the only way to get Kytan in the Daemon Engine special formation is via Supreme Command, as someone mentioned earlier? What Legion would be best for that detachment?
Technically, you could field a super heavy detachment and nominate it. I mean, you’d get no HQ or HE slots, but it’s there. SC is the only way to get HQ & LoW. ...SC does have an Elite slot as well, if you’re got a Decimator.
As for the Legion: Iron Warriors. You can spend a CP to give the Kytan a 6+++. LoW’s are about the only units on which it’s a good, efficient Stratagem.
Honourable mention to World Eaters; access to a 4+ DTW can really infuriate Magnus when he casts Smite on a 14.
It’s the DE formation that unlocks a +2” Warlord Trait, right? Or am I thinking of Black Legion?
Azuza001 wrote: The trick to tau castles is target priority and smart weapons useage.
Tau players keep their drones for tanking big guns aimed at their suits typically. A few things to consiser - target the fire warriors first. Their "help" in overwatch is what really makes tau overwatch so good. They need to die first.
Then target drones properly. If you are firing big guns (las cannon or the like) fire at the suits. But anti infantry weapons can do a number on the drones themselves. Try and kill them 2nd.
Large bike squads with mos, cheap term squads with mos, and oblits with mos can do wonders. Drop that oblit squad in with a sorcerer, cast delightful agonies and prescience on them, and let the dice roll dictate who your going to shoot. With the bikes and terms remember we only want to be 24" away, no closer. This lets us get our full shooting without letting the fire warriors get their double tap stuff.
Mortal wounds generated by psycic powers can not be passed off to a drone. The faq says that shooting and melee attacks are considered attacks for the drone wound pass off. Psycic attacks are neirher of these.
Good luck. Without an idea of what your taking its kinda hard to do more than general advice.
Thanks for the advice!
My main army is actually GSC, and I tend to lose 50% of it in the first 2 turns due to shooting/overwatch.
I have the beginning of a Chaos army, with some CSM, some Berzerkers, gakloads of IG/neophyte hybrids I could use as Cultists, a unit of 20 Bloodletters, a Khorne DP with Axe and a WoK Bloodthirster.
When I saw the new release of the new CSM, I thought I could invest some money into this army and try to make it work against Tau, but the only thing I could come up with is an Alpha Legion battalion for the -1 to Hit, the new Dark Apostle to stack another -1.
I'm thinking the termies might be a good idea... I don't see Fire warriors dislodging so easily a unit of -2 to Hit termies sitting on an objective...
The new Havocs are also very tempting.
Not sure what to think about the Warp Talons. They seem good on paper with the no overwatch rule and the new detachment for +2" to charge, but I fear they will arrive too late.
Lazaris wrote: Not sure what to think about the Warp Talons. They seem good on paper with the no overwatch rule and the new detachment for +2" to charge, but I fear they will arrive too late.
Warp Talons are interesting against Tau, for sure.
Turn 2 deep strikes against an entrenched gunline are fine so long as you can protect your other units until the assault.
But don't mistake them for a silver bullet. Overwatch immunity only counts the turn the unit arrives, some Crisis Suits can wipe the floor with them, and a proper castle is going to have a great screen that exposes the Warp Talons to shooting turn 3. The fact they have no shooting works against you when you're targeting units with drones, you just have that many more things to fight through once they charge. Plus there's the cost to think about.
My solution would be 60 Bloodletters, split into 2 units, arriving via Denizens of the Warp. Let brute force and numbers achieve what finesse can't accomplish. And I'd be looking at that new Altar for a 4+ invul save on the Bloodletters. Overwatch doesn't mean as much when you ignore 50% of the shots.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I'm floating over the order button for a Kytan as I think he and 3x Lord Discordant are undeniable threats that will draw all fire, while the other 1000pts of army is likely relatively unmolested.
Am I right in thinking the only way to get Kytan in the Daemon Engine special formation is via Supreme Command, as someone mentioned earlier? What Legion would be best for that detachment?
Technically, you could field a super heavy detachment and nominate it. I mean, you’d get no HQ or HE slots, but it’s there. SC is the only way to get HQ & LoW. ...SC does have an Elite slot as well, if you’re got a Decimator.
As for the Legion: Iron Warriors. You can spend a CP to give the Kytan a 6+++. LoW’s are about the only units on which it’s a good, efficient Stratagem.
Honourable mention to World Eaters; access to a 4+ DTW can really infuriate Magnus when he casts Smite on a 14.
It’s the DE formation that unlocks a +2” Warlord Trait, right? Or am I thinking of Black Legion?
That and you need it for the run+charge strategem.
ochobits wrote: I am a huge fan of Possessed and I always field at least one unit of 10 even if they have been not great compared to Berserkers... but the new rules got me thinking.
10 Possessed + Greater Possessed + Herald get S7 base. Add a Master of Possession with Shepherd of the True Faith Warlord Trait and the Daemonkin Ritualist Detachment. Suddenly you can use the Vessels for the Neverborn stratagem and have - potentially - up to S8 AP -2 40 attacks generating mortal wounds on each 6. And that is without additional tricks such as Boon of Change, Mutated Invigoration, etc. Daemon Prince, Exalted Champion and a Dark Apostle could make this bomb devastating on close combat.
What are your thoughts on this? Could it work?
if you mostly play casual/narrative games yes can work, outside of it it is not.
Yes, that is my case - and I don't think I'm ever playing competitive. But I think I got your point: delivery would be the flaw of that list.
Make them Alpha Legion and you get to do 9" move before the battle for 1CP. Then you move 7". Then cast Warp time on them for another 7". That moves you up 23" turn 1 which could plausibly put you within charge range if your opponent isn´t careful. Take a Dark Apostle for when you don´t get first turn to make them an additional -1 to hit.
Now this all depends on spending command points and succeeding with spells and prayers but if you have 20 Possessed lying around you might as well try it. Should be fun.
Yup. I run Alpha Legion and used that trick the other day. The only problem is that the other units - Greater Possessed, Herald and Daemon Prince - couldn't follow the same pace and got late to the party, so all the Possessed were dead. But it was fun indeed .
but you can use an apostole and a master of possession they can follow them, -1 to hit +1 inv save and if you have point to invest a sorcerer with delightful agonies,, they could be hard nut to crack, you need 3cp but if you like play around with a large blob of possessed that can be really interesting
What are people thinking about CSM squads v. cultists in the battalion now? Due to the way CP work, it is basically mandatory to have one battalion. Generally this includes two HQ plus three units of cultists.
However, with the chain-gun you can now get a squad of 5 CSM with a combi-bolter on champ for 8 st 5 -1 d1 shots plus 10 bolter shots for only 35 more points than a squad of 10 cultists with auto rifles and heavy stubber.. So for 105 points you get three of these squads over the cultists. I run a 10 man squad of cultists now and I can count on one hand the number of wounds they have causes over the last 3 or 4 games.
I can only think of one game I have played in all of 8th where they have done more than a wound or two to the enemy. So they basically are campers for objectives, and hopefully they will not be shot at because even with crap weapons they die pretty quick. In contrast, while CSM and bolters are not all that effective, having the chain-gun put out 8 basically heavy bolter shots seems like it would be much more useful, and pretty damaging.
Also, you can use Red Corsairs for an extra 3 CP on that battalion, or you can always leave one cultists squad and save some points.
So is it worth the extra points to use the chain-gun CSM over cultists in people's minds?
The red Corsairs marine battalion is mathemathically about as efficient as a guard battalion at providing cp / point.
Imo, i belive that we will see a red Corsairs battalion replacing cp Generation for Chaos.
That said, i tend to think it will be as cheap as possible to achieve that.
