I still like the allied Daemons battalion of 2 Heralds (for me it's usually a Slaanesh one and a Poxbringer) and 3 min units of Nurglings. Nurglings are a great little pest unit that can disrupt infiltrating units and are surprisingly tough to kill.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I'm floating over the order button for a Kytan as I think he and 3x Lord Discordant are undeniable threats that will draw all fire, while the other 1000pts of army is likely relatively unmolested.
Am I right in thinking the only way to get Kytan in the Daemon Engine special formation is via Supreme Command, as someone mentioned earlier? What Legion would be best for that detachment?
Technically, you could field a super heavy detachment and nominate it. I mean, you’d get no HQ or HE slots, but it’s there. SC is the only way to get HQ & LoW. ...SC does have an Elite slot as well, if you’re got a Decimator.
As for the Legion: Iron Warriors. You can spend a CP to give the Kytan a 6+++. LoW’s are about the only units on which it’s a good, efficient Stratagem.
Honourable mention to World Eaters; access to a 4+ DTW can really infuriate Magnus when he casts Smite on a 14.
It’s the DE formation that unlocks a +2” Warlord Trait, right? Or am I thinking of Black Legion?
That and you need it for the run+charge strategem.
Instead of spending CP to run & charge with one unit, I like to bring a Slaaneshi Daemons Vanguard. DPs and Heralds on Steeds provide Advance + Charge auras and accuracy or strength buffs, the Fiends have perfect synergy with punchy Daemon Engines. Get them to tag a unit and it’s got to stay in melee and get stomped in the enemy turn. Engage early with a few unfleeable Maulerfiends or Defilers and you can dictate the flow of battle
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am liking Devastation battery with two Havoc squads and Nurgle Oblits by a tree. If an enemy unit moves forwards in the first turn, an eighteen shot punishing volley is going to sting.
I am giving some very serious consideration to running something like:
Alpha Legion
Jump Lord with hydra sword (battery bonus warlord)
Lord discordant (Nurgle)
3x 5 csm combibolter/chaingun
2 Oblitsx3 (nurgle)
Chaos Daemons (nurgle)
Epididimus
Herald
(possibly one of the other support HQs)
2x 30 PB 1x Nurglings
Fortification:
Tree
Should come out right around 1900-1950. Contemplate some HQ upgrades from there.
The oblits will probably never die with -1 (potentially stacking to -2) to be hit and a 0+ armor save. Even las leaves them with 4+ saves. Sure, no endless, but having both of them for the with rerolls to hit and wound will be sufficient I think. Excellent target for the nurgle healing spell/strategem as well of course. I think I can also get the lord into the 0+ aura, making him pretty viable to live first turn as well for that delish first turn charge if he wants it. Demon prince with wings would also be fine in his spot, and I would also consider trading out the jump pack lord for a sorc given how quickly the oblits will get reroll 1s from epi.
It's been forever since I looked, what are the deployment rules for the tree?
I still think cultists are better, simply because they are meat shields. They bubble wrap and protect what marines really aren't able to for their cost. You wouldn't put your unit of 5 marines in a position to just get charged, but you would gladly do it for cultists. It's just raw wounds, you aren't expecting them to actually deal their damage back. You just want their CP and wound total to make their cost back.
lindsay40k wrote: I am liking Devastation battery with two Havoc squads and Nurgle Oblits by a tree. If an enemy unit moves forwards in the first turn, an eighteen shot punishing volley is going to sting.
By tree, are you talking about a Fectulant Gnarlmaw?
If so, what is it doing with that combination of units beside giving the Oblits +2 cover?
New to DG and Deamons so completely curious if I am missing something else on top of that.
lindsay40k wrote: I am liking Devastation battery with two Havoc squads and Nurgle Oblits by a tree. If an enemy unit moves forwards in the first turn, an eighteen shot punishing volley is going to sting.
By tree, are you talking about a Fectulant Gnarlmaw?
If so, what is it doing with that combination of units beside giving the Oblits +2 cover?
New to DG and Deamons so completely curious if I am missing something else on top of that.
Nothing much else. The havocs need to be Nurgle so they don't get killed by the tree. If someone tried to melee them it'd have a bad day because the tree will mortal wound them, and the units can fallback and still shoot and charge.
Having oblits with 3+ armor save vs overcharged plasma is pretty damn nice.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Nothing much else. The havocs need to be Nurgle so they don't get killed by the tree. If someone tried to melee them it'd have a bad day because the tree will mortal wound them, and the units can fallback and still shoot and charge.
Having oblits with 3+ armor save vs overcharged plasma is pretty damn nice.
I ran the numbers on some havoc heavy weapons and included a column adjusted for points.
EDIT: I had copied a cell wrong and originally calculated the lascannons as 34pts instead of 39. Fixed now. Doesn't change much.
As expected, the Reaper Chain Cannon is very good. And with access to re-rolls, it gets an even bigger lead due to the number of shots. However, the other weapons may be worth considering when you consider range. Even if you are willing to forward deploy your havocs, the chain cannons can get outmaneuvered or just be on the wrong area of the board. Longer range weapons have this problem less.
Without rerolls, Autocannons only compete vs Rhinos. Once re-roll 1's to hit is included, they compete vs vehicles and multi-wound models, especially with their range taken into account. Once re-roll 1's to wound comes in, the reaper pulls ahead on a bunch of targets, but the autocannon is still okay. It's probably worth it for the extra 24" of range if you want tank killers.
Heavy Bolters are basically the same profile and only a bit more range. They are about half as efficient most of the time, and only gain 12" range for it. Basically never gonna be worth it.
Lascannons are about even on multiwound models, and of course are solidly ahead vs vehicles and behind vs infantry. With re-rolls, the Chain Cannon narrows the gap a fair amount.
This is by model, so the champion isn't included here. Does he have to take a special weapon? Can he take a cheap combi-bolter? If he does have to take a special, then he's just a big points tax on the longer range weapons, but still can contribute with a plasma gun in the Chain Cannon squad.
I didn't bother included missile launchers because who even takes those.
My overall conclusion is that there's still a solid role for lascannons and autocannons. The las is nice for double shoot stratagem, and the shoot in your opponents turn if they went first strat. (assuming chain cannons aren't in range, or need to hide in a transport turn 1.) Autocannons are nice as maybe a third squad, or for cheaper units overall. You could put the Chain Cannons on your CSM squads and let the havocs be cheaper and longer ranged antivehicle.
So basically i am restarting one of my CSM warbands again:
I have a few key pieces i want to use and Cannonfodder is provided by my Soup forces.
Basically i want to go around with a decentish small ammount off marines and am now trying to think about how many marines i want to field:
Spoiler:
So far in the army as is,
DP with wings and Daemonaxe. 180pts (Debating between Khorne and doublefighting shenanigans or as a sorcerer with warptime and either prescience or deathhex.)
Lord with Esword and PP, 83
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: I ran the numbers on some havoc heavy weapons and included a column adjusted for points.
As expected, the Reaper Chain Cannon is very good. And with access to re-rolls, it gets an even bigger lead due to the number of shots. However, the other weapons may be worth considering when you consider range. Even if you are willing to forward deploy your havocs, the chain cannons can get outmaneuvered or just be on the wrong area of the board. Longer range weapons have this problem less.
Without rerolls, Autocannons only compete vs Rhinos. Once re-roll 1's to hit is included, they compete vs vehicles and multi-wound models, especially with their range taken into account. Once re-roll 1's to wound comes in, the reaper pulls ahead on a bunch of targets, but the autocannon is still okay. It's probably worth it for the extra 24" of range if you want tank killers.
Heavy Bolters are basically the same profile and only a bit more range. They are about half as efficient most of the time, and only gain 12" range for it. Basically never gonna be worth it.
Lascannons are about even on multiwound models, and of course are solidly ahead vs vehicles and behind vs infantry. With re-rolls, the Chain Cannon narrows the gap a fair amount.
This is by model, so the champion isn't included here. Does he have to take a special weapon? Can he take a cheap combi-bolter? If he does have to take a special, then he's just a big points tax on the longer range weapons, but still can contribute with a plasma gun in the Chain Cannon squad.
I didn't bother included missile launchers because who even takes those.
My overall conclusion is that there's still a solid role for lascannons and autocannons. The las is nice for double shoot stratagem, and the shoot in your opponents turn if they went first strat. (assuming chain cannons aren't in range, or need to hide in a transport turn 1.) Autocannons are nice as maybe a third squad, or for cheaper units overall. You could put the Chain Cannons on your CSM squads and let the havocs be cheaper and longer ranged antivehicle.
lindsay40k wrote: I am liking Devastation battery with two Havoc squads and Nurgle Oblits by a tree. If an enemy unit moves forwards in the first turn, an eighteen shot punishing volley is going to sting.
By tree, are you talking about a Fectulant Gnarlmaw?
If so, what is it doing with that combination of units beside giving the Oblits +2 cover?
New to DG and Deamons so completely curious if I am missing something else on top of that.
Nothing much else. The havocs need to be Nurgle so they don't get killed by the tree. If someone tried to melee them it'd have a bad day because the tree will mortal wound them, and the units can fallback and still shoot and charge.
Having oblits with 3+ armor save vs overcharged plasma is pretty damn nice.
Nothing else in the detachment benefits, but accompanying Daemon Engines all get to Advance and shoot (and charge) for the entire of the first turn. With a LD, that’s Defilers advancing and hitting on 3’s. With Soulflrged WT, that’s Maulerfiends charging without Warptime. With Warptime, that’s a Defiler joining them.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: I ran the numbers on some havoc heavy weapons and included a column adjusted for points.
As expected, the Reaper Chain Cannon is very good. And with access to re-rolls, it gets an even bigger lead due to the number of shots. However, the other weapons may be worth considering when you consider range. Even if you are willing to forward deploy your havocs, the chain cannons can get outmaneuvered or just be on the wrong area of the board. Longer range weapons have this problem less.
Without rerolls, Autocannons only compete vs Rhinos. Once re-roll 1's to hit is included, they compete vs vehicles and multi-wound models, especially with their range taken into account. Once re-roll 1's to wound comes in, the reaper pulls ahead on a bunch of targets, but the autocannon is still okay. It's probably worth it for the extra 24" of range if you want tank killers.
Heavy Bolters are basically the same profile and only a bit more range. They are about half as efficient most of the time, and only gain 12" range for it. Basically never gonna be worth it.
Lascannons are about even on multiwound models, and of course are solidly ahead vs vehicles and behind vs infantry. With re-rolls, the Chain Cannon narrows the gap a fair amount.
This is by model, so the champion isn't included here. Does he have to take a special weapon? Can he take a cheap combi-bolter? If he does have to take a special, then he's just a big points tax on the longer range weapons, but still can contribute with a plasma gun in the Chain Cannon squad.
I didn't bother included missile launchers because who even takes those.
My overall conclusion is that there's still a solid role for lascannons and autocannons. The las is nice for double shoot stratagem, and the shoot in your opponents turn if they went first strat. (assuming chain cannons aren't in range, or need to hide in a transport turn 1.) Autocannons are nice as maybe a third squad, or for cheaper units overall. You could put the Chain Cannons on your CSM squads and let the havocs be cheaper and longer ranged antivehicle.
One thing to keep in mind about Lascannons is they pay a lot for AP, which is often a value ignored on tough models.
In regard to missile launchers, I take 1-2 for flakk missile strat. Hitting anything with fly keyword on a 2+ from 48" away and dealing d3 mortals is very good and often over looked. If you EC that unit you can dish out 2d3 in a pinch.
comes in handy vs armies like deathwatch that hug terrain and spam storm shields etc. That Vanguard vet gives the unit fly
Red Corsair wrote: In regard to missile launchers, I take 1-2 for flakk missile strat. Hitting anything with fly keyword on a 2+ from 48" away and dealing d3 mortals is very good and often over looked. If you EC that unit you can dish out 2d3 in a pinch.
comes in handy vs armies like deathwatch that hug terrain and spam storm shields etc. That Vanguard vet gives the unit fly
No they don't. They simply can fall back and shoot as though they fly.
Terminator Tactica is up. Probably not at all competitive but it does make me think about fielding a squad of lightning claw dudes. Relatively cheap, can threaten anything from Guardsmen to Predators and with the Brutal Subjugation stratagem can be turned into a real horde blender (well, as long as they aren't immune to morale). Can also be further upgunned with VotLW and the Black Legion stratagem to get extra attacks and actually stands a decent chance to make the charge from deep strike. But primarily because I've always wanted to field a squad of LC termies because it looks so damn cool but never did because it was too weak even for a casual game Now it looks at least usable there.
Terminator Tactica is up. Probably not at all competitive but it does make me think about fielding a squad of lightning claw dudes. Relatively cheap, can threaten anything from Guardsmen to Predators and with the Brutal Subjugation stratagem can be turned into a real horde blender (well, as long as they aren't immune to morale). Can also be further upgunned with VotLW and the Black Legion stratagem to get extra attacks and actually stands a decent chance to make the charge from deep strike. But primarily because I've always wanted to field a squad of LC termies because it looks so damn cool but never did because it was too weak even for a casual game Now it looks at least usable there.
The main problem is if they don't make that first charge they are screwed. Maybe if we could still warp time deep strikers this might be viable, but with no shooting attack they are all about that first charge.
Red Corsair wrote: In regard to missile launchers, I take 1-2 for flakk missile strat. Hitting anything with fly keyword on a 2+ from 48" away and dealing d3 mortals is very good and often over looked. If you EC that unit you can dish out 2d3 in a pinch.
comes in handy vs armies like deathwatch that hug terrain and spam storm shields etc. That Vanguard vet gives the unit fly
No they don't. They simply can fall back and shoot as though they fly.
I may go the opposite way and bring 5 Plasma-nators with chainaxes for minimal investment in melee wargear. 200 points for some beefy 10 plasma shots sounds like fun, although Chosen are probably still better for that role despite being more fragile.
Red Corsair wrote: In regard to missile launchers, I take 1-2 for flakk missile strat. Hitting anything with fly keyword on a 2+ from 48" away and dealing d3 mortals is very good and often over looked. If you EC that unit you can dish out 2d3 in a pinch.
comes in handy vs armies like deathwatch that hug terrain and spam storm shields etc. That Vanguard vet gives the unit fly
No they don't. They simply can fall back and shoot as though they fly.
The unit still has a model with the fly keyword.
No they don't. They just act like they do for Falling Back, and the model itself can move as if it had FLY.
Red Corsair wrote: In regard to missile launchers, I take 1-2 for flakk missile strat. Hitting anything with fly keyword on a 2+ from 48" away and dealing d3 mortals is very good and often over looked. If you EC that unit you can dish out 2d3 in a pinch.
comes in handy vs armies like deathwatch that hug terrain and spam storm shields etc. That Vanguard vet gives the unit fly
No they don't. They simply can fall back and shoot as though they fly.
The unit still has a model with the fly keyword.
I'm pretty sure the unit doesn't gain the Fly keyword. I'll recheck my codex after work, but I think the unit merely counts the model as having a jump pack for transport purposes. Same way they don't gain the Biker keyword with a Biker, which is why those Bikers in particular don't benefit from Beta Bolter while moving.
Red Corsair wrote: In regard to missile launchers, I take 1-2 for flakk missile strat. Hitting anything with fly keyword on a 2+ from 48" away and dealing d3 mortals is very good and often over looked. If you EC that unit you can dish out 2d3 in a pinch.
comes in handy vs armies like deathwatch that hug terrain and spam storm shields etc. That Vanguard vet gives the unit fly
No they don't. They simply can fall back and shoot as though they fly.
The unit still has a model with the fly keyword.
I'm pretty sure the unit doesn't gain the Fly keyword. I'll recheck my codex after work, but I think the unit merely counts the model as having a jump pack for transport purposes. Same way they don't gain the Biker keyword with a Biker, which is why those Bikers in particular don't benefit from Beta Bolter while moving.
Crazy, I know.
Crap, well that takes an arrow out of my quiver
Man deaathwatch are annoying at the moment lol Sorry for the hick up fellas.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, silly errors aside I still like the utility of having a couple flakk missile options in a list if I can sprinkle them in since they at least work well on a lot of eldar units and things like custodes bikes etc.
My chaos space marine army will be quite gunline oriented I think. Couple of CSM squads with auto cannons then a couple of cultist blobs to screen them with the crux of the forge being 2 X 3 oblits and a havoc squad.
Really wanted to do either iron warriors or red corsairs but the combos are pressing me towards alpha legion. I've never really been a big fan of them though and can't be bothered to paint them up in alpha legion colours. Very much leaning towards red corsairs.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Really wanted to do either iron warriors or red corsairs but the combos are pressing me towards alpha legion. I've never really been a big fan of them though and can't be bothered to paint them up in alpha legion colours. Very much leaning towards red corsairs.
Well look at it from a positive angle, red Corsairs can field csm regulars and not feel bad about it, also more CP for Oblits, Havocs etc so whilest nurgle alpha legion might be now the King of durability in the book i say red Corsairs will be the most versatile due to cp.
Here is a Reaper Chain Cannon, a Plasma Gun, and a bolter on vanilla CSM.
This assumes 24" and stationary. So at 12" you'll need to double the plasma. If they moved, the Reaper gets worse due to -1 to hit, and the bolter could lose its second shot.
Interesting to note that the bolter is more efficient than the plasma against some infantry, but not once the plasma gets it second shot. And of course the reaper is just incredible. The plasma about breaks even with it against vehicles and multi-wound models, and beats it in those categories when close enough for its second shot of course.
Also in my original image, I had copied a cell wrong and calculated the lascannons a 34 pts instead of 39. I've updated it. It doesn't change anything major, as it was only a few points off.
EDIT: Reposting the Havoc comparison because I'd had a mistake. The Autocannon and Lascannon were done with full re-rolls, not just 1's. Corrected now. So they are slightly worse, but same overall conclusions.
So from what I can see chain cannons might just be the go to weapon to take on every platform almost. It's incredibly versatile and is only really let down by the 24" inch range. Drown the word in gatling cannons.
With havoks, CSM, terminators, obliterators and Dark Apostles getting new resized models, I kinda feel like getting rid of my CSM army. I have about 100 infantry models from the old kits of those. Replacing and repainting those with all of the new models is something I don't really want to go through and now I just feel unsatisfied playing with my old proportioned models, knowing that better ones exist. It's like all the new kits are just discouraging me from playing my CSM army. Anyone else get this feeling?
Assembled the shadowspear chaos Marines and placed them next to my normal "old" chaos Marines and it is just sad. Like, not even just the height but the bulk and detail. I've resigned myself to accepting I'm going to just replace them all now.
Also, in my modeling journey, the age of sigmar blood warriors are beyond perfect berserker substitutes if you just add a backpack. Now everything is gonna be bulky and properly sized now.
Azuza001 wrote: Double for me. My old marines are black legion, and they are fine the way they are. My new marines will be red corsairs. Its just the way it is lol.
Hmm, that gives me an idea. I could use the new marines to make an alpha legion force and keep my old iron warriors. I could reuse the cultists and daemon princes between both armies too, so i'd just need the apostle, 3 obliterators, 10 havoks, and 10 terminators from the new wave. I got so many bald unhelmeted marine heads that I could use.
Is anyone else super annoyed that gw seemed to suggest that if you had the old codex all you would need is the vigulus ablaze for all the updated sheets and rules and then when they got the book today found it to not be true at all.
I mean, look at the cultists situation. I own codex 1, shadowspear chaos codex, and vigulus ablaze and in all of that there is nothing saying that chaos cultists are now max squad size 30. But the new codex says that (i have a friend who did get codex 2 so i verified in that). Only reason i even knew to look was it was leaked that the change was coming.
I hope gw posts an faq up asap to answer some of these "misconceptions" as well as address the oblits point cost issue.
Terminator sprue pictures are up on the New Zealand GW site and it's pretty garbage. Looks like i'm not using the new terminators at all. Shame, since the models look nice.
It's tough because there is a lot of options in the kit, so I can't really fault them for not putting more. But it's a case of a unit that has a huge amount of choices, but only a couple of them are any good.
Anyone know the size comparison between the new terminators and the cataphractii terminators? I might just get the power axe upgrade set from forgeworld and use those as chainaxes on my cataphractii terminators since they look like chainaxes
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Boogles wrote: Anyone know the size comparison between the new terminators and the cataphractii terminators? I might just get the power axe upgrade set from forgeworld and use those as chainaxes on my cataphractii terminators since they look like chainaxes
I looked at the pictures of the website and they look roughly the same height and bulk, so i'm just going to stick with cataphractii armor
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: It's tough because there is a lot of options in the kit, so I can't really fault them for not putting more. But it's a case of a unit that has a huge amount of choices, but only a couple of them are any good.
We'll need to just convert or use 3rd party bitz.
I would agree with you if I hadn't ever assembled wolf guard terminators. Just go look at those sprue pics and tell me they couldn't have done more lol.
vaklor4 wrote: "Your terminators come stock with chainaxes"
ONE CHAINAXE.
What a complete and total farce. Even the old box had more weapons!
the old box also had more ornate shoulders, i like the new box but for the price they are asking, i am very much not liking the new box. Also gloriously stating the new normal equipment will be chain axes and combibolter and then literally not putting enough base equipment in the box is just bad buissness practice.
Anyone else looking at a Flawless Host Daemon Prince? With the Slannesh relic from the book he is ST8, 8 attacks -2ap d2 with claws. Then you give him the Flawless Host warlord trait and each 6 to hit is now 3 hits!! That seems like it will be crazy good.
xeen wrote: Anyone else looking at a Flawless Host Daemon Prince? With the Slannesh relic from the book he is ST8, 8 attacks -2ap d2 with claws. Then you give him the Flawless Host warlord trait and each 6 to hit is now 3 hits!! That seems like it will be crazy good.
Well, each 6 grants an additional attack for death to the false emperor and 3 additional for his WLT/renegade trait. So you still need to roll to hit but yea, the dude is a blender even compared to the old blender prince lol.
Give him diabolic strength and he is S9 with 9 attacks, prescience him and he gets 4 additional attacks on every 5+ to hit verse imperial units. Use veterans of the long war or a DA and he is wounding a knight on 2's. His maximum damage output in that case would be 90 damage lol. His average would be more then enough to one shot a knight.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also saw a review video discussing a chaos lord with jump pack from the raptoral host (not the field commander) with a chainsword from black legion. Give him the relic that is AP-3 2 damage and mortal wounds on a 6 to wound then give him the flames of spite WLT so for every 6 to wound he causes 2 mortal wounds. You can then use the nearby field commander to have a 7" charge on the drop and pop votlw so you cause 2 mortals on a 5+ and you could potentially swing twice if you make him mark of khorne. Thats quite a bit of damage for a 90 point character. You could also do it with night lords (claws of the black hunt) or alpha legion (teeth of the hydra) just as easily. I think dropping in chaos lords sounds viable and fun.
In case there are any hardy Word Bearers fans here, Dark Apostles can no longer take the Cursed Crozius relic, as it replaces a power maul while the new Dark Apostle no longer uses one. Lazy editing as usual.
Marshal Loss wrote:In case there are any hardy Word Bearers fans here, Dark Apostles can no longer take the Cursed Crozius relic, as it replaces a power maul while the new Dark Apostle no longer uses one. Lazy editing as usual.
Eldarain wrote:The Bearers players are so used to gut punches that one more might not register.
Just played a game versus a Craftsworld tourny army with Brazen Beasts and...Dear lord was it brutal. My Berzerkers with the Brazen Beasts -4 AP on a 6 wound turned them into an absolute blender of a unit, and the stratagem to puke out mortal wounds from your demon engines pairs very nicely with a turn 1 charge Heldrake.
Sightless helm will be quite nice on a Lord Discordant with Baleflamer... he doesn't care about his BS and it makes ALL of his weapons -1 AP better. AP -3 Baleflamer, AP -3 spear, AP -3 Helstalker legs and AP-5 Technovirus Injector
AFAICT we’re the first faction to receive a post-8.0-Codex Power Levels revision? This can have consequences for reserve-heavy lists, plus events that use PL for lists (still seems pretty common in shop games evening campaigns).
Pandabeer wrote: Sightless helm will be quite nice on a Lord Discordant with Baleflamer... he doesn't care about his BS and it makes ALL of his weapons -1 AP better. AP -3 Baleflamer, AP -3 spear, AP -3 Helstalker legs and AP-5 Technovirus Injector
That wouldn't be a bad idea.
I'm personally leaning towards the Brazen Beasts Fleshplate. The additional movement is nice, but the 2+ it confers is pretty important to me.
3 of them, nurgle, in an epidemus list killed: relic scorpius, around 16 scouts, smash captain, and a few sternguard and veterans w Stormshields, essentially pinning a girlyman list. End of game i had lost 1, they charged into telion + 2 remianjng scouts, but they survived (he made all his saves). But they saved my bacon.
I was running an Epidemus centered list using PBCs, oblits, and defilers. Defilers still meh... 2 charged the smash captain, one after another, and the damn smash captain killed both eveb using demonforge to reroll everything. He kept making his saves :/
Pandabeer wrote: Sightless helm will be quite nice on a Lord Discordant with Baleflamer... he doesn't care about his BS and it makes ALL of his weapons -1 AP better. AP -3 Baleflamer, AP -3 spear, AP -3 Helstalker legs and AP-5 Technovirus Injector
When I get around to running a Supreme Command detachment of three of these (or a Battalion perhaps) I plan on equipping one with the Helm, one with the Mechatendrils from the Vigilus detachment, and one with the Intoxicating Elixir. Expensive CP wise but those three will maul almost anything they touch! After that, it's a matter of deciding which one gets the halving damage Warlord Trait from Black Legion
Pandabeer wrote: Sightless helm will be quite nice on a Lord Discordant with Baleflamer... he doesn't care about his BS and it makes ALL of his weapons -1 AP better. AP -3 Baleflamer, AP -3 spear, AP -3 Helstalker legs and AP-5 Technovirus Injector
That wouldn't be a bad idea.
I'm personally leaning towards the Brazen Beasts Fleshplate. The additional movement is nice, but the 2+ it confers is pretty important to me.
Lord of discordant is already 2+ though, if I remember correctly. I like sightless helm on a LOD. There are so many good relics now to explore. Like that raptorial host jump pack lord with black legion chain axe. Chaos lord can take a combi bolter with thunderhamer a well right? Because that black legion combi bolter is a pretty fierce weapon. And if you are going raptorial host jumpack lord, might as well take one more. Combine the shooting damage from that relic bolter wth thunder hammer and you will do a ton of dmg in both the shooting and the close combat phase. Just need one more mini warlord nearby who has that warlord trait to allow people within 6 inches to charge after they have fallen back, and you can keep doing this all the time.
I am toying with giving a secondary terminator sorcerer that warlord trait (veteran raider I think its called) with council of traitors. and it will have diabolic strength. He drops in together with the raptorial host jump pack lords. He casts diabolic strength on the Ghorisvix's teeth lord and prescience on another lord with Thunderhammer. So, that guy will now have 8 attacks, -3AP, D2, STR 6 and causing mortal wounds on 6s. And another jumppack lord can have that relic combi bolter and thunder hammer. 4 shots of D3 on imperium, followed by a thunder hammer attacks also doing D3, (with presciece allowing him to strike on 2s and DTTFE with a thunder hamer). That's 8 attacks on D3 at least and he hasn't even used any strategem yet. And the jump pack lords will be able to fall back, shoot and charge again all day because of the Sorceror raid leader trait.
Alternatively, make the sorceror a jump pack sorceror as well so that he can charge into combat too along with the rest of the raptorial host. lol Melee sorcerors aren't that scary though. Not sure whats the best way to make a scary melee sorceror. I would put the relic on the sorceror but is he is BS 3+, so a lord is better. Maybe intoxicating elixir with the Sorceror's force sword.
Alpha legion gunline could be superb. Chuck a load of Havoks and some oblits in a castle shielded by cultists and a battalion of Red Corsairs space marines. Give them the devestation battery detachment and a dark apostle in the casting the minus 1 to hit power and you've got a very deadly gunline that can sit and pump out fire very safely as the new power provides a minus 1 to hit aura.
Coupled with the devestation battery detachment which lets units fire in the enemies first movement phase before even being fired upon themselves! It's one of the less complex ideas but I really fancy giving it a go.
So guys say you were gonna run 20 marines for red corsair strat fun how would you now do it?
I'm thinking with 2 chain cannons and mark or slaanesh
DA support with -1 to hit them prayer
Sorcerer casting delightful agonies for 5+fnp and prescience.
Voltlw and double tap strat them then bring em back on when they taking a beating
With beta bolter and everything going to plan that's 72 bolter shots likely hitting on 2s wounding t4 on a 3 or most tanks on a 4 and 32 chain cannon shots
Pandabeer wrote: Sightless helm will be quite nice on a Lord Discordant with Baleflamer... he doesn't care about his BS and it makes ALL of his weapons -1 AP better. AP -3 Baleflamer, AP -3 spear, AP -3 Helstalker legs and AP-5 Technovirus Injector
That wouldn't be a bad idea.
I'm personally leaning towards the Brazen Beasts Fleshplate. The additional movement is nice, but the 2+ it confers is pretty important to me.
Brazen Beasts plate is a pretty easy "this goes on a daemon prince" item. Otherwise, if you run MoK on the Discordant, the Talisman of Burning Blood is a not-bad idea. 12+d6 move, shoot baleflamer, charge with reroll. yey.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Alpha legion gunline could be superb. Chuck a load of Havoks and some oblits in a castle shielded by cultists and a battalion of Red Corsairs space marines. Give them the devestation battery detachment and a dark apostle in the casting the minus 1 to hit power and you've got a very deadly gunline that can sit and pump out fire very safely as the new power provides a minus 1 to hit aura.
Coupled with the devestation battery detachment which lets units fire in the enemies first movement phase before even being fired upon themselves! It's one of the less complex ideas but I really fancy giving it a go.
Point of order - the -1 to be hit prayer affects a single unit, it is not an aura.
Zid wrote: Soooooo The Purge Obliterators.... yep.
3 of them, nurgle, in an epidemus list killed: relic scorpius, around 16 scouts, smash captain, and a few sternguard and veterans w Stormshields, essentially pinning a girlyman list. End of game i had lost 1, they charged into telion + 2 remianjng scouts, but they survived (he made all his saves). But they saved my bacon.
I was running an Epidemus centered list using PBCs, oblits, and defilers. Defilers still meh... 2 charged the smash captain, one after another, and the damn smash captain killed both eveb using demonforge to reroll everything. He kept making his saves :/
Yea but that's not really defy's fault lol. That happens sometimes with shield captains and it is very frustrating.
Latro_ wrote: So guys say you were gonna run 20 marines for red corsair strat fun how would you now do it?
I'm thinking with 2 chain cannons and mark or slaanesh
DA support with -1 to hit them prayer
Sorcerer casting delightful agonies for 5+fnp and prescience.
Voltlw and double tap strat them then bring em back on when they taking a beating
VotLW isn’t available to Red Corsairs since they’re Renegades, does it?
Latro_ wrote: So guys say you were gonna run 20 marines for red corsair strat fun how would you now do it?
I'm thinking with 2 chain cannons and mark or slaanesh
DA support with -1 to hit them prayer
Sorcerer casting delightful agonies for 5+fnp and prescience.
Voltlw and double tap strat them then bring em back on when they taking a beating
VotLW isn’t available to Red Corsairs since they’re Renegades, does it?
Ayy Votwl, then again maybee more multitooled with 2 PG's and a PP aswell as some psyker support and a DA?
I'm suprised there's not more noise being made about the council of traitors stratigium. it is soimewhat build specific, but the ability to get 3 warlords traits just seems o have some pretty good options.
BrianDavion wrote: I'm suprised there's not more noise being made about the council of traitors stratigium. it is soimewhat build specific, but the ability to get 3 warlords traits just seems o have some pretty good options.
I've been thinking about it. This coupled with Black Legion's nice relics could open up the potential to run a lot of really nasty characters. How about a list that focuses on character screening and getting characters in to do the heavy lifting? Abaddon can already wreck knights, for example. Character heavy lists fear vindicares of course, but that's why you run a bunch of them and have terminators, daemon princes, and bikers.
So I'm finding the new Havoc trait pretty horrible. An inability tot take extra models is pretty horrible - means that any sort of damage the unit takes is pretty much a game over (T5 isn't really very helpful when you've an armour save of 3+ and 1 wound).
I don't think I've won a game against my enemies Tau in something like 6 or 7 games or something. It's genuinely humiliating at this point. The only way to keep myself on the table is to take the Alpha Legion trait (if GW changes it to a cover save it becomes hot garbage). Anyone know any good tactics (presumably ones that don't involve buying an extensive amount of Forge World drop pods or drills).
blood reaper wrote: So I'm finding the new Havoc trait pretty horrible. An inability tot take extra models is pretty horrible - means that any sort of damage the unit takes is pretty much a game over (T5 isn't really very helpful when you've an armour save of 3+ and 1 wound).
I don't think I've won a game against my enemies Tau in something like 6 or 7 games or something. It's genuinely humiliating at this point. The only way to keep myself on the table is to take the Alpha Legion trait (if GW changes it to a cover save it becomes hot garbage). Anyone know any good tactics (presumably ones that don't involve buying an extensive amount of Forge World drop pods or drills).
blood reaper wrote: So I'm finding the new Havoc trait pretty horrible. An inability tot take extra models is pretty horrible - means that any sort of damage the unit takes is pretty much a game over (T5 isn't really very helpful when you've an armour save of 3+ and 1 wound).
I don't think I've won a game against my enemies Tau in something like 6 or 7 games or something. It's genuinely humiliating at this point. The only way to keep myself on the table is to take the Alpha Legion trait (if GW changes it to a cover save it becomes hot garbage). Anyone know any good tactics (presumably ones that don't involve buying an extensive amount of Forge World drop pods or drills).
A Flawless Host Daemon Prince with the Ultimate Confidence-Trait and either relic that adds +1 A and dual talons has 8 attacks that with Prescience triggers 4 additional attacks against the Imperium or 3 additional attacks against non-Imperium on 5+.
Potentially 40 attacks, with a very respectable 18,67 attacks on average against <Imperium> and 16 attacks against non-<Imperium>.
Flawless Host in general has some great synergy with the Slaanesh-Icon, Prescience and their stratagem.
I ran the numbers on missile launchers too as people were talking about it over at the B&C. I've compared both missile types to the autocannon and lascannon.
The Krak Missile vs Lascannon is a straightforward comparison. In the best case scenario of re-rolling 1's to hit and wound, the Krak about breaks even in efficiency per point vs Rhinos, but fails against tougher armor (the stuff that really matters.) It also beats the autocannon in the case of all 3 vehicle types, but the efficiency isn't actually that far ahead. The gap between autocannon and missile launcher is smaller than the gap between missiles and lascannons vs the tougher tanks.
Does the frag missile profile make up for the difference in performance between the krak and the lascannon? That's going to be situational of course. Theoretically you could encounter a situation where there are no good targets for a lascannon/krak missile. But is that actually going to happen in the current meta? Green Tide exists, but I don't think it's that common an issue. And let's note that the Lascannon is actually more efficient against Space Marines and Multi-Wound infantry than either Frag or Krak missiles. The Frag only has a role vs horde infantry.
So how about the comparison with the autocannon? Both the missile Launcher and Autocannon serve a similar role as flexible weaponry. One by having 2 profiles, and the other by having a middle ground profile and being cheap. As mentioned before, the autocannon is a bit behind vs high toughness vehicles. It pulls even against light vehicles, especially ones with poor armor saves. Its more efficient against space marines than either Frag or Krak, about equal against multi-wound heavy infantry, and better against multi-wound infantry with lesser armor save. And surprisingly, even beats out Frag Missiles vs both boyz and Guard, the main place we'd expect frag missiles to excel (and where the autocannons D2 is wasted). And it has the advantage of just being a cheaper squad overall!
So now we have numbers to put to my initial instinct that missile launchers weren't good and have no real role because Autocannons do it better. If you don't want lascannons because you aren't sure you'll have enough targets for them, you should be using autocannons. Or perhaps a mix of autocannons and missile launchers to shift away from infantry and towards anti-armor, and so you can use Flakk Missile strat.
I'll also point out that the reason the missile launcher doesn't compete isn't because of krak missiles, it's because frag missiles are bad. And frag missiles are bad for 2 reasons:
1) Because all formerly small blast weapons are bad. 1d6 shots is not a proper translation of what a small blast could achieve. It should have been 3+d3, in which case the frag missile would beat the autocannon vs hordes, as it ought to.
2) Because all of these Marine former str4 ap5 weapons became str4 ap0, which is also why regular bolters aren't that good. Other faction's Str4 ap5 weapons became Str4 ap-1 or equivalent special mechanics (Necrons and Eldar), or got significant mechanics to help them out (orks.)
So the Frag missile is a victim of a double whammy of system changes without its stats being adjusted to make up for it. If these issues got fixed, it'd be good at its current cost and have a role again. If it got cheaper in points, the frag missile would re-gain its role vs the autocannon, but then krak missiles would steal the role of lascannons. Which is why it's better to fix its stats than to just make it cheaper.
MinscS2 wrote: A Flawless Host Daemon Prince with the Ultimate Confidence-Trait and either relic that adds +1 A and dual talons has 8 attacks that with Prescience triggers 4 additional attacks against the Imperium or 3 additional attacks against non-Imperium on 5+.
Potentially 40 attacks, with a very respectable 18,67 attacks on average against <Imperium> and 16 attacks against non-<Imperium>.
Flawless Host in general has some great synergy with the Slaanesh-Icon, Prescience and their stratagem.
Amazing blender-prince potential there. Throw in VOTLW to ensure translation of those hits into wounds and it will kill whatever you point it at
MinscS2 wrote: A Flawless Host Daemon Prince with the Ultimate Confidence-Trait and either relic that adds +1 A and dual talons has 8 attacks that with Prescience triggers 4 additional attacks against the Imperium or 3 additional attacks against non-Imperium on 5+.
Potentially 40 attacks, with a very respectable 18,67 attacks on average against <Imperium> and 16 attacks against non-<Imperium>.
Flawless Host in general has some great synergy with the Slaanesh-Icon, Prescience and their stratagem.
Slight correction, I forgot to take the misses (and following re-rolls) into the equation, and my math was slightly off to begin with.
In total, a Flawless Host DP with 8 attacks (from either Intoxicating Elixir or Flawless Cloak) would on average get:
17,11 attacks against non-imperium.
20,22 attacks against imperium.
Amazing blender-prince potential there. Throw in VOTLW to ensure translation of those hits into wounds and it will kill whatever you point it at
As already pointed out, Flawless Host can't use the VotLW-stratagem due to being renegades.
However, with Intoxicating Elixir, the DP will go from S7 to S8, and so essentially gets +1 to wound against the things that truly matter: T4, T7 and T8.
Kdash wrote: I wonder, can anyone with the new codex confirm whether Huron has had his fixed Warlord Trait changed to the Red Corsairs one please?
Not seen it mentioned anywhere, but, unsure if anyone has thought to check.
Huron as off vigilus ablaze always has to take the Red corsair trait in Vigilus ablaze if he is Warlord.
I don't know about codex 2.0 because i am stubbornly resisting to buy it, since they themselves stated that i wouldn't need to buy it.
Kdash wrote: I wonder, can anyone with the new codex confirm whether Huron has had his fixed Warlord Trait changed to the Red Corsairs one please?
Not seen it mentioned anywhere, but, unsure if anyone has thought to check.
Huron as off vigilus ablaze always has to take the Red corsair trait in Vigilus ablaze if he is Warlord.
I don't know about codex 2.0 because i am stubbornly resisting to buy it, since they themselves stated that i wouldn't need to buy it.
Oh cool, thanks. I was hoping it was the case, but i wasn't putting it past GW to make him keep the old fixed trait.
Kdash wrote: I wonder, can anyone with the new codex confirm whether Huron has had his fixed Warlord Trait changed to the Red Corsairs one please?
Not seen it mentioned anywhere, but, unsure if anyone has thought to check.
Huron as off vigilus ablaze always has to take the Red corsair trait in Vigilus ablaze if he is Warlord.
I don't know about codex 2.0 because i am stubbornly resisting to buy it, since they themselves stated that i wouldn't need to buy it.
Oh cool, thanks. I was hoping it was the case, but i wasn't putting it past GW to make him keep the old fixed trait.
Look at it from a positive angle, you always get a free malestromsbite on top of a regular Relic due to it.
Only problem with that coming with Huron, is you need two more characters to give the relics to. Superbolter good for a bike or termie sorcerer, or maybe a warpsmith for the bs2.
Unrelated, but has anyone figured out the base size of the Lord Discordant yet? He looks pretty small, judging be the scale of the rider. I was hoping to convert one from a maulerfiend, but it's looking to be too big.
So what seems better for a CP battery to you guys? The 170p "heretical 32" ofrom renegades or Red Corsairs with Huron? The Red Corsairs obviously get way more CP, but also costs roughly double.
What are people's thoughts on the scourged Legion trait? Considering using it for my tzeenchIan renegades (I'm aware red corsairs is better but scourged feels very tzeenchy)
Champion of Slaanesh wrote: What are people's thoughts on the scourged Legion trait? Considering using it for my tzeenchIan renegades (I'm aware red corsairs is better but scourged feels very tzeenchy)
Red Corsairs really aren't better outside getting more CP.
Personally with Orks and Cults and, well, CSM, I'm thinking the Overwatch bonus is nice and all. Anything gained out of the Salamanders copy-pasta is just a bonus.
Okay, time for Havocs vs Obliterators. This is important for deciding just what you ought to take in your Devastation Battery.
I'm running Oblits at the shadowspear price of 115pts, and their weapon with average rolls. So Str8, ap-2, D2.
The main comparison to make is Oblits vs Reaper Chain Cannons, as those are both 24" range. And funnily enough, we see that point for point, the reaper is more efficient against everything, but especially against horde infantry. This is mainly because of the cost difference. The Oblit is ~3x the cost of the Chain Cannon Havoc.
Autocannons are even cheaper. You get the whole squad of 4x autocannons and 1x champ for 5pts less than a single Oblit! And they also actually meet or beat the Obliterator in efficiency per point in almost every area, although which areas changes a bit with re-roll 1's to hit. With re-roll 1's to hit and wound, they are exactly the same vs the tanks.
The Lascannon is behind on infantry and slightly ahead on the tanks, with the difference increasing once the re-rolls are introduced.
So in pure offensive power, the havocs actually come in ahead for the most part. But of course, this comparison actually has more to it because of how different these units are. On the surface of it, we can notice that for the price of 3 Oblits, we can afford 10 Chain Cannon Havocs. But of course, those would be split into 3 squads, only one of which can benefit from VotLW or Shoot Twice. Oblits have the biggest benefit from strats because they let you concentrate the most shooting power into a single squad.
Also note that I used average, middle of the road rolls for the Oblits. If they rolled worse it would perform worse against some targets, but not necessarily vs all of them. If they had only str7 instead of 8, that wouldn't change anything vs the Guardsmen. And Ap-1 wouldn't change anything vs the Boyz. If they roll D1, they lose out on a lot vs tanks.
And how about Defense? The Oblits are 4 wounds per 115. Chain Cannon havocs are ~3.5, and autocannons are ~5. But the Obliterator has 2+ Armor, which effectively doubles its durability over the havoc vs AP0. And the Invul of 5++ doubles it vs AP-3 (plasma.) They are vulnerable to high Damage weapons, but between the armor and invul, they are still much more durable per point than the Havocs. And that's before you consider that they can get Daemon Keyword defensive buffs, and are easier to benefit with defensive buffs that target a single unit. And they have a nice melee weapon. And Deep Strike.
So overall, Oblits are the superior unit, even at the shadowspear price point. But a lot of that is due to strats and buffs that will be in short supply. So you should fill a full unit of Oblits, but you may want to consider Havocs instead of a second unit of Oblits. After all, you can get 3 squads of Autocannon havocs for the cost of 3 Oblits! And they have the 48" range going for them.
Red Corsairs really aren't better outside getting more CP.
Apples and Oranges, but overall, I agree.
Red Corsairs have a trait that focuses on offense, mobility and close combat.
The Scourged have a trait that focuses on defense, immobility and shooting.
They shouldn't really be compared in a "what's best way", because they're so different.
Now, if we compare legions/chapters that all focus on offense and close combat, I'd say that Red Corsairs are better than both World Eaters and Brazen Beasts.
Not only because they get CP for doing basically nothing, nor because Huron is pretty good, but because Red Corsairs can easily make turn-1 charges, something World Eaters and Brazen Beasts more or less can't.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That's why I'm still a big fan of Autocannon Havocs, even moreso with this update.
Lookng at a spread sheet is misleading though. I'd agree they are great if it wasn't for the rule of 3. I don't really feel like wasting one of my precious 3 havoc slots on auto canons. That efficiency per point only matters in volume, which you can't really get when your restricted. Las Canons look worse, much worse by comparison until you realize how much more damage potential you can pack in.
Again, they were never bad, it is just a matter of them losing out to better things most of the time.
Red Corsairs really aren't better outside getting more CP.
Apples and Oranges, but overall, I agree.
Red Corsairs have a trait that focuses on offense, mobility and close combat.
The Scourged have a trait that focuses on defense, immobility and shooting.
They shouldn't really be compared in a "what's best way", because they're so different.
Now, if we compare legions/chapters that all focus on offense and close combat, I'd say that Red Corsairs are better than both World Eaters and Brazen Beasts.
Not only because they get CP for doing basically nothing, nor because Huron is pretty good, but because Red Corsairs can easily make turn-1 charges, something World Eaters and Brazen Beasts more or less can't.
Technically they also can throw 20 man marine blobs into the faces of people, is that good? I mean it's not bad but the cultists bomb still has more use.
Red Corsairs really aren't better outside getting more CP.
Apples and Oranges, but overall, I agree.
Red Corsairs have a trait that focuses on offense, mobility and close combat.
The Scourged have a trait that focuses on defense, immobility and shooting.
They shouldn't really be compared in a "what's best way", because they're so different.
Now, if we compare legions/chapters that all focus on offense and close combat, I'd say that Red Corsairs are better than both World Eaters and Brazen Beasts.
Not only because they get CP for doing basically nothing, nor because Huron is pretty good, but because Red Corsairs can easily make turn-1 charges, something World Eaters and Brazen Beasts more or less can't.
I actually think there's some merit to Brazen Beasts when it comes to Berserker Marines and Warp Talons. The increased mobility of Red Corsairs is definitely more appreciated to me though.
Especially if (maybe after a FAQ) they're both locked into Khorne. Gooooodbye warptime!
I played old renegades almost predominantly before VA, and having advance and charge is just SO useful. Chaos has a pretty powerful punch, and there's not much that will outfight you (especially in a shooty meta), and anything that can will want to come to you so you can plan around it. To tackle any other threat, you -need- to be fast. Anything else is worthless if you arent fast.
Things like berzerkers or helbrutes are just slow as tar without it, but it's definitely something you need to build a list around to get the most milage.
IMO, brazen beast zerkers fall into the same trap as world-eater zerkers. Zerkers are plenty killy enough, they dont need MORE damage. Once they hit a target, they'll either blenderzie it completely, or cripple it to the point of being ineffective anyway. Either way, they're a glass cannon, and the more important part is getting them to their targets in the first place.
The only real loss going RC's is veterans of the long war. It's a great stratagem for sure but your focus inside a list is the big factor. If your focusing on assault, I'd say advance and charge is way better overall then +1 to wound on a single unit. As that meme already stated, combat buffs are worthless if you can't get in. Being able to advance and charge is a big deal and should get your models in combat much sooner which compensates for that loss anyway.
I find VoTLW is used much more often in my shooting lists for obvious reasons.
I am waffling right now on playing RC's or Black legion. Ultimately I'll end up using both but right now I can't decide which to try first.
McGibs wrote: Especially if (maybe after a FAQ) they're both locked into Khorne. Gooooodbye warptime!
I played old renegades almost predominantly before VA, and having advance and charge is just SO useful. Chaos has a pretty powerful punch, and there's not much that will outfight you (especially in a shooty meta), and anything that can will want to come to you so you can plan around it. To tackle any other threat, you -need- to be fast. Anything else is worthless if you arent fast.
Things like berzerkers or helbrutes are just slow as tar without it, but it's definitely something you need to build a list around to get the most milage.
IMO, brazen beast zerkers fall into the same trap as world-eater zerkers. Zerkers are plenty killy enough, they dont need MORE damage. Once they hit a target, they'll either blenderzie it completely, or cripple it to the point of being ineffective anyway. Either way, they're a glass cannon, and the more important part is getting them to their targets in the first place.
The advantage to the Brazen Beasts over World Eaters though is they don't need to charge. It'll activate the first combat no matter what, which is why I believe in some merit there. It won't cutting edge though that's for sure.
That's also why I'm leaning towards an Outrider Raptorial Host as Brazen Beasts. Raptors will enjoy actually making a charge on a 7" rerollable, and Warp Talons will enjoy the extra AP on bigger targets.
Not sure if this has come up, but do we know what weapons a lord discordant can pick?
I don't imagine h's be able to take a poweraxe for the axe relic that adds +1 to hit vs imperium. A warpsmith can take an axe....soooo ?
It wold be more for the lulz, but getting DttfE on a 2 plus would be pretty funny with all buffs with only one of those buffs being cast, everything else would be static.
Still the axe on anything else would allow for 3+ triggers. Does that carry over to mount attacks?
Roknar wrote: Not sure if this has come up, but do we know what weapons a lord discordant can pick?
I don't imagine h's be able to take a poweraxe for the axe relic that adds +1 to hit vs imperium. A warpsmith can take an axe....soooo ?
It wold be more for the lulz, but getting DttfE on a 2 plus would be pretty funny with all buffs with only one of those buffs being cast, everything else would be static.
Still the axe on anything else would allow for 3+ triggers. Does that carry over to mount attacks?
Yes, this guy is a crazy blender. And I would actually give him the relic mechatedrils against none imperium. Most horde out their isn't imperial so they help him keep his attacks up in the crazy numbers.
Anyone else notice the starting wargear for the Havocs in the 2.0 codex? Aspiring champ gets a flamer, and the Havocs either Heavy Bolters or Lascannons.
With the masque you can get the prince triggering on 4s, my question is is there anything else that can add to the hit rolls in the game that I'm missing? I know with possessed you can give them an icon so they're triggering extra hits on 3s but idk of anything more than that
l0k1 wrote: Anyone else notice the starting wargear for the Havocs in the 2.0 codex? Aspiring champ gets a flamer, and the Havocs either Heavy Bolters or Lascannons.
The flamer would be the cheapest option and give some overwatch I guess. I'd probably switch to a Combi-Bolter if I could though. Haven't seen the fully updated datasheet yet.
l0k1 wrote: Anyone else notice the starting wargear for the Havocs in the 2.0 codex? Aspiring champ gets a flamer, and the Havocs either Heavy Bolters or Lascannons.
The flamer would be the cheapest option and give some overwatch I guess. I'd probably switch to a Combi-Bolter if I could though. Haven't seen the fully updated datasheet yet.
"-The Aspiring Champion may replace his flamer with one item from the Champion Equipment or Special Weapons list.
- The Aspiring Champion may replace his chainsword with one item from the Champion Equipment list."
So you can take just a boltgun and chainsword if you want to save the points.
Also note that the plasma gun and combi-plasma cost the same number of points these days, so there's literally no reason to ever take a plasma gun.
McGibs wrote: Especially if (maybe after a FAQ) they're both locked into Khorne. Gooooodbye warptime!
I played old renegades almost predominantly before VA, and having advance and charge is just SO useful. Chaos has a pretty powerful punch, and there's not much that will outfight you (especially in a shooty meta), and anything that can will want to come to you so you can plan around it. To tackle any other threat, you -need- to be fast. Anything else is worthless if you arent fast.
Things like berzerkers or helbrutes are just slow as tar without it, but it's definitely something you need to build a list around to get the most milage.
IMO, brazen beast zerkers fall into the same trap as world-eater zerkers. Zerkers are plenty killy enough, they dont need MORE damage. Once they hit a target, they'll either blenderzie it completely, or cripple it to the point of being ineffective anyway. Either way, they're a glass cannon, and the more important part is getting them to their targets in the first place.
The advantage to the Brazen Beasts over World Eaters though is they don't need to charge. It'll activate the first combat no matter what, which is why I believe in some merit there. It won't cutting edge though that's for sure.
That's also why I'm leaning towards an Outrider Raptorial Host as Brazen Beasts. Raptors will enjoy actually making a charge on a 7" rerollable, and Warp Talons will enjoy the extra AP on bigger targets.
If your berserkers are getting charged, they're already dead.
If the enemy is actually ballsy enough to charge a unit of berserkers, it's probably with a unit that with annihilate them before they can fight.
I would agree that Berzerkers don't usually need even more power. They destroy most stuff they charge anyway. And yet, its almost impossible to make them hardy enough if they get targeted by dedicated firepower. This is why last time I argued for the need to even have heroes like exalted champions or dark apostles with them.
Because if you run 2 squads of 5 zerkers in a Rhino, vs 1 squad of 8 and 1 exalted champion. You get more damage out of 2 squads of zerkers, who can go off and charge and destroy 4 targets (fight twice). One exalted champion is never going to equal to melee power of a squad of 5.
On the red corsairs thingy. I would really go red corsairs for at least 1 batallion for the +3CP. Its too good not to pass. And all we need is one legion detachment where we place our big guns like Oblits if we want VOTLW.
Again, we also need to look at our own lists and what we want to run. Not everything needs VOTLW.
Daemon Engines cannot use it. nor can they use traits. So, if you want to run Daemon Engines, that red corsairs batallion which you are already taking is a good choice to take them.
Berserkers may not necessarily need VOTLW. They obliterate anything they touch anyway. And Str 5, str 6 kills most infantry fine, and Str 10 on their powerfist wounds everything on a 3.
Havocs with chainguns ... you will usually be clearing infantry with this, and str 5 is good enough really. But Havocs with autocannons benefit from VOTLW... so, it depends.
Oblits is the one thing that really needs VOTLW, because if you have Oblits, you will jolly well stack every offensive strategem you can on them. And they are usually targeting the biggest baddest stuff in the opponent army. Not to mention VOTLW on a 345 point unit is a lot more bang for buck.
Any 400 point massive unit like 20 possessed, 20 zerkers, 20 noise marines with sonic blastors, deserves VOTLW.
So, you can usually fit all your biggest baddest 300+ to 400+ point unit into just one detachment, be it a 20 man possessed, or a 10 man termi squad. And just make sure that detachment is a legion detachment. The rest can be red Corsairs for the CP.
McGibs wrote: Especially if (maybe after a FAQ) they're both locked into Khorne. Gooooodbye warptime!
I played old renegades almost predominantly before VA, and having advance and charge is just SO useful. Chaos has a pretty powerful punch, and there's not much that will outfight you (especially in a shooty meta), and anything that can will want to come to you so you can plan around it. To tackle any other threat, you -need- to be fast. Anything else is worthless if you arent fast.
Things like berzerkers or helbrutes are just slow as tar without it, but it's definitely something you need to build a list around to get the most milage.
IMO, brazen beast zerkers fall into the same trap as world-eater zerkers. Zerkers are plenty killy enough, they dont need MORE damage. Once they hit a target, they'll either blenderzie it completely, or cripple it to the point of being ineffective anyway. Either way, they're a glass cannon, and the more important part is getting them to their targets in the first place.
The advantage to the Brazen Beasts over World Eaters though is they don't need to charge. It'll activate the first combat no matter what, which is why I believe in some merit there. It won't cutting edge though that's for sure.
That's also why I'm leaning towards an Outrider Raptorial Host as Brazen Beasts. Raptors will enjoy actually making a charge on a 7" rerollable, and Warp Talons will enjoy the extra AP on bigger targets.
If your berserkers are getting charged, they're already dead.
If the enemy is actually ballsy enough to charge a unit of berserkers, it's probably with a unit that with annihilate them before they can fight.
That's probably true as well. That's still an advantage to anyone not dead though.
I'm definitely trying a Raptorial Host though. Can't change my mind on that!
ravenerioli wrote: With the masque you can get the prince triggering on 4s, my question is is there anything else that can add to the hit rolls in the game that I'm missing? I know with possessed you can give them an icon so they're triggering extra hits on 3s but idk of anything more than that
The problem with the flawless host daemon prince is that it takes up not only a warlord trait, but it has to be flawless host too. So, you have to have a detachment of flawless host and make that DP in it your warlord. Its really powerful, but are you sure you want your warlord to be in the thick of battle? It would have been great if we could take this warlord trait on a secondary hero, but we can't...
And I have problems fitting in flawless host as a detachment too. Want to run too many other stuff. lol
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sigh, I am too greedy, I want to try and run everything. Daemon engine theme, Oblits, the new havocs, the new chain guns, raptoral host, red corsairs for CP...lol
I am having problems fitting everything in.. lol
I am coming round to the idea that the chain guns are better run on normal CSM squads where you have more bodies and hence more abalative wounds. Havocs can move and shoot now and are T5. A squad of havocs with say 4 autocannons is just 110 points. That's amazing for a T5 unit that can move and shoot 8 shots 48 inches.
I would totally run those plus CSM squads with chain guns. Then my opponent is stumped by a sea of power armor and yet, no very good targets, because everything is relatively cheap, and he has to wield through a ton of normal CSM before he gets to my chain guns.
I am coming round to the idea that the chain guns are better run on normal CSM squads where you have more bodies and hence more abalative wounds. Havocs can move and shoot now and are T5. A squad of havocs with say 4 autocannons is just 110 points. That's amazing for a T5 unit that can move and shoot 8 shots 48 inches.
I would totally run those plus CSM squads with chain guns. Then my opponent is stumped by a sea of power armor and yet, no very good targets, because everything is relatively cheap, and he has to wield through a ton of normal CSM before he gets to my chain guns.
That's the conclusion I came to as well after doing the math. This setup seems like it will be nice and efficient, but of course needs to be paired with a good hammer unit to take advantage of strats and kill big stuff like super heavies. From the shooting angle that would be Oblits or plasma terminators. Or from melee, daemon princes and engines. Or perhaps Abaddon.
Eldenfirefly wrote: but are you sure you want your warlord to be in the thick of battle?
What are you, some loyalist softy? Some meek, fragile space-elf hiding behind his brethren?
We're chaos marines damn it! If your warlord isn't in the thick of battle, turning enemies into shish kebab on his sword and/or talons, you're doing something wrong.
BrianDavion wrote: I'm suprised there's not more noise being made about the council of traitors stratigium. it is soimewhat build specific, but the ability to get 3 warlords traits just seems o have some pretty good options.
They can have up to four, if I've read everything correctly. In addition to the BL Stratagem, pg 160 has the Field Commander Stratagem that gives one character (not your WL or a named character) in a specialist detachment the WL trait for that specific detachment as well. So you can have three characters plus your actual warlord all with traits.
BrianDavion wrote: I'm suprised there's not more noise being made about the council of traitors stratigium. it is soimewhat build specific, but the ability to get 3 warlords traits just seems o have some pretty good options.
They can have up to four, if I've read everything correctly. In addition to the BL Stratagem, pg 160 has the Field Commander Stratagem that gives one character (not your WL or a named character) in a specialist detachment the WL trait for that specific detachment as well. So you can have three characters plus your actual warlord all with traits.
I think you can use Field Commander multiple times too on separate specialist detachments. So 6 traits total if you have 3 detachments.
Yeah, and I am coming round to raptorial host of smash hammer or superhero jumppack chaos lords to take care of superheavies. you just need two, and I think mathematically, they should be able to bust open a castellan or superheavy. And even if they die after that, its a worthwhile trade off.
Abaddon is really tough to fit into lists. For the points he cost, you absolutely need to build a list around him. And although he moves 6, its still just 6 inches. If you deep strike him in, you don't benefit from him first turn, you need to clear a space for him, and you absolutely need to deep strike him in with buddies so that his aura is isn't wasted. So, this means Oblits or terminators. But over commit to this, and you re facing the opponent with only half an army before they come in because just Abaddon alone is 240 points.
Put Abaddon in a gun line and then he is basically there as a countercharge beatstick. Its probably the best use, but ,,, sigh gun line armies are so boring... And we don't do it quite as good as say Guard, Mechanicus or Tau. I mean, our OP chain gun is only 24 inches. You simply can't play a gunline army using that. The rest of our long range heavy support shooties have been around for ages and you don't see them beating tournaments. A gunline army is also super static. Objectives are going to be tough.
BrianDavion wrote: I'm suprised there's not more noise being made about the council of traitors stratigium. it is soimewhat build specific, but the ability to get 3 warlords traits just seems o have some pretty good options.
They can have up to four, if I've read everything correctly. In addition to the BL Stratagem, pg 160 has the Field Commander Stratagem that gives one character (not your WL or a named character) in a specialist detachment the WL trait for that specific detachment as well. So you can have three characters plus your actual warlord all with traits.
I think you can use Field Commander multiple times too on separate specialist detachments. So 6 traits total if you have 3 detachments.
True. Suppose it comes down to if there is multiple specialist detachments that can be built to a functional level in 2k points. But true for sure.
BrianDavion wrote: I'm suprised there's not more noise being made about the council of traitors stratigium. it is soimewhat build specific, but the ability to get 3 warlords traits just seems o have some pretty good options.
They can have up to four, if I've read everything correctly. In addition to the BL Stratagem, pg 160 has the Field Commander Stratagem that gives one character (not your WL or a named character) in a specialist detachment the WL trait for that specific detachment as well. So you can have three characters plus your actual warlord all with traits.
I think you can use Field Commander multiple times too on separate specialist detachments. So 6 traits total if you have 3 detachments.
I don't think there is anything that says we can't have multiple specialist detachments within a batallion. Like say a Batallion has 2 chaos lords. 1 warpsmith, a raptor unit, 2 havocs unit and a Daemon Engine (Defiler). You can take devastation battery (1 lord and 2 havocs), raptorial host (1 jumpack lord and raptor unit) and soulforged detchment (1 warpsmith and the defiler). Correct me if I am wrong here. There is no overlap here.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just thought of something unfluffy but totally sneaky. We all know Berserkers scary. But they are flimsy. So, we put them in Rhinos, which are flimsy as well.
But Consider a mark of nurgle Rhino. Stuff 2 squads of 5 zerkers into it. Then at the start of your turn, you have your DA cast the -1 to hit prayer on it. The rhino then move advance 12+d6 inches are pops smoke. Now its -2 to hit. You then have your nurgle sorceror cast Miasma of pestilence on it.
Suddenly, you now have a -3 to hit Rhino with 10 berserkers in it. What is your opponent gonna do. Ignore the Rhino knowing that next turn, those 10 zerkers are going to get out and wreck face? Or try and shoot it at -3 .. lol
You actually only need to keep it up for 1 turn. Turn 2, once your zerkers get off, the Rhino doesn't need the protection anymore. So, your sorceror and DA are now free to go and buff other units. The unfluffy part is that your zerkers are riding in a nurgle Rhino... lol.
Oh well, this works with a DA only too if you want to insist on being fluffy, but you just have to be happy with just a -2 to hit Rhino instead of -3... lol. The thing I love about this is that it forces your opponent to focus precious heavy support guns shooting a 70 point Rhino, which happens to be extremely difficult to kill too! lol.
Actually, you can go herohammer bus with this strategy. Stuff like 6 greater possessed, a master of executioner, a fighty chaos lord and a exalted champion into this unkillable Rhino. Then charge it up the battlefield and pop smoke. He either tries to kill the Rhino, or face an absolute storm of heroes coming out of the Rhino to smash face on turn 2. And wow, actually, I think that contingent could is an absolute wrecking ball.
You can have 2 Rhinos on standby, with the heroes and some zerkers behind them out of line of sight. Then turn 1, decide on which Rhino you want to buff, stuff all the heroes in it, stuff your zerkers in the other one and charge it up with the strategy. So, he would have to destroy 2 empty Rhinos to foil your strategy if he went first... lol I love this simply because imagine how stupid your opponent feels when he goes first and he is forced to shoot his big guns into two empty Rhinos.... lol Because if he doesn't ....one of them is going to become super hard to hit and kill with a can of absolute whoopass in it!!! lol
You can go 2 squads of plasma chosen to sort of hedge your bets. If your Rhino gets blown up, your chosen can still walk up the field and shoot the plasma at 24 inches. (at least they can do something). If you get to go first, then they pile into the Rhino, it charges up the board and becomes -3 to hit turn 1. Turn 2, your plasma chosen can get out 3 inches, move 6, and double tap to death whatever you want. Stack cacophony for more plasma doubletaps. lol.
BrianDavion wrote: I'm suprised there's not more noise being made about the council of traitors stratigium. it is soimewhat build specific, but the ability to get 3 warlords traits just seems o have some pretty good options.
They can have up to four, if I've read everything correctly. In addition to the BL Stratagem, pg 160 has the Field Commander Stratagem that gives one character (not your WL or a named character) in a specialist detachment the WL trait for that specific detachment as well. So you can have three characters plus your actual warlord all with traits.
I think you can use Field Commander multiple times too on separate specialist detachments. So 6 traits total if you have 3 detachments.
I don't think there is anything that says we can't have multiple specialist detachments within a batallion. Like say a Batallion has 2 chaos lords. 1 warpsmith, a raptor unit, 2 havocs unit and a Daemon Engine (Defiler). You can take devastation battery (1 lord and 2 havocs), raptorial host (1 jumpack lord and raptor unit) and soulforged detchment (1 warpsmith and the defiler). Correct me if I am wrong here. There is no overlap here.
Sorry to rain on your parade :( but page 160 of Vigilus Ablaze says...
A Detachment from your army can only be upgraded to a Specialist Detachment once and thus cannot have multiple Specialist Detachment Stratagems applied to it, even if they affect different units in the Detachment.
Also I'm not sure your opponent would always fall for your hard to hit Rhino trap. It's much easier to just ignore it in that case and focus on your other threats and come up with a solution for the Berserkers after they disembark. If the opponent's only answer for Berserkers is to strand them, then I can see that being a fantastic way to go about it. But they probably should and would have a second gameplan if that fails.
Awww, I am disappointed only 1 specialist detachment per normal detachment. lol Oh well. It would have been too op anyways. because we would have so many warlords running around lol.
Anyway, what I love about the hard to kill Rhino strategy is that its actually very cheap. The DA and sorceror is only used on turn 1. After that, they are free to buff and do other things. The Rhino is only 70 points. 2 squads of 5 zerkers each are under 100 points each squad (even with their powerfist champs). But if he does choose to ignore that Rhino. I am pretty sure that 2 zerker squads with powerfist champs will do damage far beyond their points on turn 2 and onwards.
Theoratically, you can split the miasma and the prayer to two Rhinos so that they each get -2 to hit. I supposed you could conceivably argue for ignoring 1 Rhino. But are you going to ignore 2 Rhinos with 3 squads of berserkers and an exalted champion and Huron in it? I think if you did, you do so at your own peril. I think 3 squads of zerkers with those 2 getting into your opponent lines with the ability to fight twice, (use the khorne strategem to fight again), so one of them fights 3 times... Seriously, they will probably smash any gunline they hit. Just make sure you clear away the chaff with your remaining 1400 points of army.
What I love about this is that we are probably running red corsairs batallion anyway for +3 cp. This allows us to use that batallion to take 3 squads of zerkers, and exalted champion and a Rhino for a strategy that ties in well with red corsairs anyway. So now, when we disembark from the Rhino, we can move, advance and then charge because of the red corsairs trait. The reach of the zerkers will be absolutely phenominal lol.
We can use the other 1400 points for shooting, to clear chaff, etc etc, and for other specialist detachments and stuff but this 600 points of crazed zerkers inside 2 rhinos which are -2 to hit just cannot be ignored. I mean, yes you can ignore it. But I don't know how many armies are ok with 2 Rhinos is the middle of the board on turn 2 with 19 zerkers and an exalted champion, with a melee charge reach of 9+d6+2d6 (That's 19 inches average reach ... lol).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So the real question is if the Lord Discordant counts as a Lord for the purpose of that Strategem. If he does...oh Lordy
?? Which strategem are you talking about? @@ If you mean field commander. He absolutely does. You can use field commander on a character and the Lord of DIscordant counts as a character. But he of course needs to also be allowed to be given the specialist keyword. So, raptorial host and bringers of dispair is out for him (jump packs and termi armor dudes). But soul forged detachment he definitely qualifies because he is a warpsmith keyword too. I think he only applies to devastation battery and soulforged detachment because those allow warpsmiths. He doesn't really fit devastation battery very well, because he doesn't really want to baby sit oblits and havocs. lol. Anyway, this is why you could have a command detachment of 3 LOD, and you can make 1 a warlord with halves all dmg, make another the soul forged detachment warlord to give the +2 Movement. And nominate all 3 LOD. So, now you have 3 LOD moving at 14 inches and 1 of them halve all dmg. lol.
And actually, if you have the points and want to go all out. supreme commande detachment allows for a Lord of war too. So go ahead and fit in a Kytan Ravager or LOS into that detachment and make it part of the soulforge detachment as well. (evil grin)
Roknar wrote: Not sure if this has come up, but do we know what weapons a lord discordant can pick?
I don't imagine h's be able to take a poweraxe for the axe relic that adds +1 to hit vs imperium. A warpsmith can take an axe....soooo ?
It wold be more for the lulz, but getting DttfE on a 2 plus would be pretty funny with all buffs with only one of those buffs being cast, everything else would be static.
Still the axe on anything else would allow for 3+ triggers. Does that carry over to mount attacks?
Not sure if already answered, Lord Discordant can't change any weapons, only option is to replace autocannon with a baleflamer and the Helstalker can replace technovirus injector with magma cutter (I would never do that, injector is amazing)
So standard kitout for Lord is Impaler Chainglaive, Bolt Pistol, Frag/Krak Grenades, Mechantendrils and Autocannon or Baleflamer.
Roknar wrote: Not sure if this has come up, but do we know what weapons a lord discordant can pick?
I don't imagine h's be able to take a poweraxe for the axe relic that adds +1 to hit vs imperium. A warpsmith can take an axe....soooo ?
It wold be more for the lulz, but getting DttfE on a 2 plus would be pretty funny with all buffs with only one of those buffs being cast, everything else would be static.
Still the axe on anything else would allow for 3+ triggers. Does that carry over to mount attacks?
Not sure if already answered, Lord Discordant can't change any weapons, only option is to replace autocannon with a baleflamer and the Helstalker can replace technovirus injector with magma cutter (I would never do that, injector is amazing)
So standard kitout for Lord is Impaler Chainglaive, Bolt Pistol, Frag/Krak Grenades, Mechantendrils and Autocannon or Baleflamer.
Well the relic of the soulforged pack is pretty good, and its like made for the LOD. It makes his mecantendrils into Str 5, -1 AP, D2 plus it can make 1 one attack for every enemy model within 1 inch of it.
Seriously though, a Lord Discordant with any one of the Intoxicating Elixir, the Sightless Helm or Mecha-Serpents is an absolute wrecking ball, and a tough nut if you put the halving damage Black Legion trait on them; if you run multiple, you gotta use the specialist warlord stratagem to take the Soulforged pack trait for the +2" movement bubble. So stoked that it looks like it's going to be under $120 AUD too. I'm obsessed with this thing if you couldn't tell
A good tip for those wanting to get more chain-cannons; get the Obliterator with the minigun, cut the barrel off, do the same to a Marine wielding an autocannon and swap them. Bam, extra chaincanoon.
Flawless Host Lord of Discordant with its native +1 to hit and Ultimate Confidence looks way better than an FH Daemon Prince with the same trait. 11 attacks triggering on 5s without Presience potentially resulting in 44 attacks on Imperium units is dumb insane. And only dumber with the Mecha-serpents relic, given the size of his base.
Invul wrote: Flawless Host Lord of Discordant with its native +1 to hit and Ultimate Confidence looks way better than an FH Daemon Prince with the same trait. 11 attacks triggering on 5s without Presience potentially resulting in 44 attacks on Imperium units is dumb insane. And only dumber with the Mecha-serpents relic, given the size of his base.
In a way, yes, but, then the Lord will get shot off the table turn 1, whereas the Prince likely won't.
Invul wrote: Flawless Host Lord of Discordant with its native +1 to hit and Ultimate Confidence looks way better than an FH Daemon Prince with the same trait. 11 attacks triggering on 5s without Presience potentially resulting in 44 attacks on Imperium units is dumb insane. And only dumber with the Mecha-serpents relic, given the size of his base.
In a way, yes, but, then the Lord will get shot off the table turn 1, whereas the Prince likely won't.
Invul wrote: Flawless Host Lord of Discordant with its native +1 to hit and Ultimate Confidence looks way better than an FH Daemon Prince with the same trait. 11 attacks triggering on 5s without Presience potentially resulting in 44 attacks on Imperium units is dumb insane. And only dumber with the Mecha-serpents relic, given the size of his base.
In a way, yes, but, then the Lord will get shot off the table turn 1, whereas the Prince likely won't.
Why likely? Size?
Yeah, he's a character that is above the 8 wound "untargetable" rule. Meaning, if you don't go first, he can be shot without issue.
Not Online!!! wrote: Actually just a thought, now with recycling available on marines and Cultists, could we run a horde list based around that?
With one cheap brigade and two RC Batallions you could get 60 cultist and 30 CSM. 90 recyclable models with 32 command points to recycle with. So, sure.
Invul wrote: Flawless Host Lord of Discordant with its native +1 to hit and Ultimate Confidence looks way better than an FH Daemon Prince with the same trait. 11 attacks triggering on 5s without Presience potentially resulting in 44 attacks on Imperium units is dumb insane. And only dumber with the Mecha-serpents relic, given the size of his base.
Lord of Disco actually does not benefit from Ultimate confidence as he does not gain Flawless host Renegade trait (neither infantry, bike, helbrute nor demon prince).
Invul wrote: Flawless Host Lord of Discordant with its native +1 to hit and Ultimate Confidence looks way better than an FH Daemon Prince with the same trait. 11 attacks triggering on 5s without Presience potentially resulting in 44 attacks on Imperium units is dumb insane. And only dumber with the Mecha-serpents relic, given the size of his base.
Lord of Disco actually does not benefit from Ultimate confidence as he does not gain Flawless host Renegade trait (neither infantry, bike, helbrute nor demon prince).
Not Online!!! wrote: Actually just a thought, now with recycling available on marines and Cultists, could we run a horde list based around that?
With one cheap brigade and two RC Batallions you could get 60 cultist and 30 CSM. 90 recyclable models with 32 command points to recycle with. So, sure.
Its kinda overkill. I think at least one RC battalion and 1 legion Battalion is great already. If you run 3 battalions, one of which is RC, its probably more CP than we can ever imagine having already. How many CPs is the cutoff before you reach a stage where you can't finish using them in a game. lol.
Cacophony only cost 2 CP. And bear in mind, deadly units that see their firepower magnified with that strategem are always given a high priority to being eliminated. Let's put it this way, if your 3 man Oblit was ignored and allowed to use cacophony every turn for the whole game, then I wouldn't be surprised if the opponent lost the game (because his army was obliterated lol).
Having said that. I can imagine easily blowing through 5 or more CP in turn 1 and 2. And if you can keep that up till turn 3 with good units, it would already be a huge advantage.
As an example: consider how cacophony doubles the firepower of a Oblit unit. And there is also VOTLW. So, leaving aside VOLTW, just 4 rounds of Cacophony is just 8 CP, but it effectively means you were able to double an Oblit unit firepower for 4 turns (assuming it comes down on turn 2). That effectively means you were playing with an extra Oblit unit in your army (the equal to 345 points).
Tide of traitors on 30 man cultists. You spend 2 CP, get back 100+ points.
More where they came from on a 20 man CSMRC unit. You get back over 200 points worth. And you can use this more than once per game for 3 CP.
So erm yeah, not even counting the other strategems, if you were allowed to use just the above 3 strategems well in the first 3 turns, you would effectively be playing with at least 700 points more than your opponent.
I belive just theory wise, wouldn't you also use cacophony on the 20/30 squads to maximize dice?
Basically the list i imagine would field 60 Corsairs /30 per battalion and a 3rd legion heavy Support detachment ((AL). In combination with that a lot of mobile sorceres, dp 's and lords.
20 cp, 40 marines for forward recycling and 30 legion cultists aswell.
Hard hitters in Form of Dp 's etc.
Might be worth a try, or atleast as a skew list.
funny thing is you could get the DA to bless the rhino then in his movement phase he can actually jump in it XD
can do the same thing with alpha legion plague marines!
20 AL plague marines -3 to hit them and when you do they're T5 with a 5+ FNP.... gooooood luck shifting them
funny thing is you could get the DA to bless the rhino then in his movement phase he can actually jump in it XD
can do the same thing with alpha legion plague marines!
20 AL plague marines -3 to hit them and when you do they're T5 with a 5+ FNP.... gooooood luck shifting them
funny thing is you could get the DA to bless the rhino then in his movement phase he can actually jump in it XD
can do the same thing with alpha legion plague marines!
20 AL plague marines -3 to hit them and when you do they're T5 with a 5+ FNP.... gooooood luck shifting them
I guess the spray weapons would work well here for the unit loadout? The only way to effectively clear these is with autohitting weapons - which are usually short ranged - or by hitting them hard in melee?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So the real question is if the Lord Discordant counts as a Lord for the purpose of that Strategem. If he does...oh Lordy
?? Which strategem are you talking about? @@ If you mean field commander. He absolutely does. You can use field commander on a character and the Lord of DIscordant counts as a character. But he of course needs to also be allowed to be given the specialist keyword. So, raptorial host and bringers of dispair is out for him (jump packs and termi armor dudes). But soul forged detachment he definitely qualifies because he is a warpsmith keyword too. I think he only applies to devastation battery and soulforged detachment because those allow warpsmiths. He doesn't really fit devastation battery very well, because he doesn't really want to baby sit oblits and havocs. lol. Anyway, this is why you could have a command detachment of 3 LOD, and you can make 1 a warlord with halves all dmg, make another the soul forged detachment warlord to give the +2 Movement. And nominate all 3 LOD. So, now you have 3 LOD moving at 14 inches and 1 of them halve all dmg. lol.
And actually, if you have the points and want to go all out. supreme commande detachment allows for a Lord of war too. So go ahead and fit in a Kytan Ravager or LOS into that detachment and make it part of the soulforge detachment as well. (evil grin)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So the real question is if the Lord Discordant counts as a Lord for the purpose of that Strategem. If he does...oh Lordy
?? Which strategem are you talking about? @@ If you mean field commander. He absolutely does. You can use field commander on a character and the Lord of DIscordant counts as a character. But he of course needs to also be allowed to be given the specialist keyword. So, raptorial host and bringers of dispair is out for him (jump packs and termi armor dudes). But soul forged detachment he definitely qualifies because he is a warpsmith keyword too. I think he only applies to devastation battery and soulforged detachment because those allow warpsmiths. He doesn't really fit devastation battery very well, because he doesn't really want to baby sit oblits and havocs. lol. Anyway, this is why you could have a command detachment of 3 LOD, and you can make 1 a warlord with halves all dmg, make another the soul forged detachment warlord to give the +2 Movement. And nominate all 3 LOD. So, now you have 3 LOD moving at 14 inches and 1 of them halve all dmg. lol.
And actually, if you have the points and want to go all out. supreme commande detachment allows for a Lord of war too. So go ahead and fit in a Kytan Ravager or LOS into that detachment and make it part of the soulforge detachment as well. (evil grin)
I was talking about Council of Traitors.
The Lord Discordant does not qualify for any of the positions on a Council of Traitors. His only relevant keyword is WARPSMITH.
I thought of a way (sort of) for Abaddon to be not quite so static and stuck to a gunline.
Go the max three squads of havocs and have them follow Abaddon as he marches up the table. Havocs can move and shoot their heavy weapons so they won't be affected. Both Abby and the Havocs have a 6 inch move. Also, Abby will be a huge threat to anyone who wants to try and hit the Havocs in melee. He will heroically intervene and pound them into paste!
However, the havocs are going to be an obvious target as they march up the board with Abby. I was thinking one way is to keep them cheap by going full autocannon. So, you will have 3 squads of autocannon havocs. All these havocs will have 48 inch range, and reroll to hit. That's 24 shots each turn and 2 damage per shot. Its not bad really.
Each squad is very cheap. 110 points only. So, you feel the pinch so much if they are targeted and die.
The only issue is that having Abbadon buff only 330 points of stuff with his reroll to hit aura is kinda a bit of a waste. One way is to have other stuff like maybe a Daemon Engine walk behind that moving castle (Defiler?) and cast Blasphemous machines on it every turn. Not the best really. Actually, I think for using this blasphemous machines, best is on a tri las predator, which would be an obvious target though...
We could also have a squad of chosen with combi bolters, or even a squad of combi bolter, chain axe terminators walk in front of Abby. Then Abby's multiplier effect will be higher. I actually think Abby would prefer to move advance each turn since his bolter is good, anyway, he still gets 2 shots with his bolter because of the black legion trait.
If you have a Oblit squad waiting to come down, and Abby is advancing up the board. I think the opponent would also be worried. Turn 2, if the oblits come down mid board and Abby is exactly there as well, you are going to have Oblits which have reroll to hit. That would be nasty with Cacophony. I think Abby can get to mid board quite easily with move advance.
And yes Slayer, Council of traitors wouldn't apply to LOD. It only applies strictly to one DA and sorceror. But at least its 1 CP to give warlord trait to both a DA and a sorceror. So, its pretty nifty. The shadowspear box has a whole bunch of warlord traits for psykers. And black legion has a whole bunch too. So, there is really quite a lot.
If you are thinking of all this, black legion spearhead detachment is absolutely needed though. lol
Are the new relics in the new codex? I would like to be sure before I buy it this weekend? If not anything else that I would need to buy Vigilus Ablaze for?
Lord Blackscale wrote: Are the new relics in the new codex? I would like to be sure before I buy it this weekend? If not anything else that I would need to buy Vigilus Ablaze for?
You need VA for the new Strategic Detachment rules, the expanded Renegades rules, the Black Legion mini-Index.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So the real question is if the Lord Discordant counts as a Lord for the purpose of that Strategem. If he does...oh Lordy
?? Which strategem are you talking about? @@ If you mean field commander. He absolutely does. You can use field commander on a character and the Lord of DIscordant counts as a character. But he of course needs to also be allowed to be given the specialist keyword. So, raptorial host and bringers of dispair is out for him (jump packs and termi armor dudes). But soul forged detachment he definitely qualifies because he is a warpsmith keyword too. I think he only applies to devastation battery and soulforged detachment because those allow warpsmiths. He doesn't really fit devastation battery very well, because he doesn't really want to baby sit oblits and havocs. lol. Anyway, this is why you could have a command detachment of 3 LOD, and you can make 1 a warlord with halves all dmg, make another the soul forged detachment warlord to give the +2 Movement. And nominate all 3 LOD. So, now you have 3 LOD moving at 14 inches and 1 of them halve all dmg. lol.
And actually, if you have the points and want to go all out. supreme commande detachment allows for a Lord of war too. So go ahead and fit in a Kytan Ravager or LOS into that detachment and make it part of the soulforge detachment as well. (evil grin)
I was talking about Council of Traitors.
The Lord Discordant does not qualify for any of the positions on a Council of Traitors. His only relevant keyword is WARPSMITH.
Shame.
So I'm definitely thinking a Spearhead for him, Black Legion halving damage Warlord Trait w/ Sightless Helm or Talisman, with three Maulerfiends all with Tendrils. Seems quick as is to get into the mess of it.
Invul wrote: Flawless Host Lord of Discordant with its native +1 to hit and Ultimate Confidence looks way better than an FH Daemon Prince with the same trait. 11 attacks triggering on 5s without Presience potentially resulting in 44 attacks on Imperium units is dumb insane. And only dumber with the Mecha-serpents relic, given the size of his base.
In a way, yes, but, then the Lord will get shot off the table turn 1, whereas the Prince likely won't.
yes that's is the big difference, prince 90% of time get into close combat, models like LOD not
Ran the following tricks at tournament this last weekend. We allowed the new chaos codex but not vigulus for ease of "people learning the new rules" which considering i was the only chaos player i was ok with.
Dark apostle w/ -1 to hit prayer
Lord of skulls w/ gattling cannon and demagore cannon
2 defilers w/ scourges and autocannons
Herald of khorne w/ blood crown
Not the most powerful list but i won 3 out of 4 games! Only lost to genestealer cults due to mind control of my los and the resulting bloodshed lol. My fault for not having a proper screen set up.
The mvp was that lord of skulls though. He killed 5 of those damn ad mech shooty robots just from shooting (i was hoping for mortal wounds to bounce back and hurt me to anger the lord) and single handedly took out half of the opponents ad mech force by itself (and the dark apostle praying for -1 to hit).
In another game vs dark angels he killed a squad of 8 hellblasters "screeing" for azreal, a leutinant, and a company ancient with his guns then charged in and 1 shotted azreal. Belial teleported in with his terms and tried to save the others. Then the los killed belials terms with his guns and drove in and 1 shottrd belial! It was glorious, the los just standing there in the wreckage of the da lines tearing chrs appart while the rest of the force just spent their time grabbing objectives and doing whatever they felt like.
If your going to use the los, spend the points and give him that gattling and put a herald of khorne with the blood crown in range.
D6 auto hits w/ 6's generating additional hits and 12 str 8 ap-2 2d with again 6's generating additional hits, its very good. Especially on 28 wounds -1 to hit and taking damage makes it stronger.
so Chosen of the Pantheon. Is that just a trap or actually useful?
You could buff the bajesus out of one unit and have it to go on a murder rampage in theory , but the amount of CP and buffs it requires seems a little over the top?
You can't exactly afford to miss any attacks.
The obvious target would be terminators since they still get access to VotLW and bring both good shooting and melee, but the army woulld be basially cultists and a bunch of characters to milk he stratagem to the max.
I mean, if you're not using both the khorne stratagem and slaanesh , why bother? At the same time that would imply throwing all your cp at that one unit to become the mother of all one time trick ponies. (and not really since you can see it coming a mile away)
Maybe with demonic units and heralds but then you kind of still doing the same thing. Stacking them Strength auras on top of the daemon detachment buffs?
That might be somewhat affordable, not so sure about actually getting them all in range though.
Roknar wrote: so Chosen of the Pantheon. Is that just a trap or actually useful?
You could buff the bajesus out of one unit and have it to go on a murder rampage in theory , but the amount of CP and buffs it requires seems a little over the top?
You can't exactly afford to miss any attacks.
The obvious target would be terminators since they still get access to VotLW and bring both good shooting and melee, but the army woulld be basially cultists and a bunch of characters to milk he stratagem to the max.
I mean, if you're not using both the khorne stratagem and slaanesh , why bother? At the same time that would imply throwing all your cp at that one unit to become the mother of all one time trick ponies. (and not really since you can see it coming a mile away)
Maybe with demonic units and heralds but then you kind of still doing the same thing. Stacking them Strength auras on top of the daemon detachment buffs?
That might be somewhat affordable, not so sure about actually getting them all in range though.
It would be cool if we could use it efficiently on oblits to benefit from tree and fire twice. But as they typically start In reserves Its complicated.
Anyone have a size comparison on the old metal Oblits and the new ones? I also have 2 sets of the Wargame Exclusive nurgle Oblits.
So 9 oblits total already, but keeping downsized scale and using bigger bases really irks me... I already have a set of the old Metal Terminators that have never seen a tabletop.
funny thing is you could get the DA to bless the rhino then in his movement phase he can actually jump in it XD
can do the same thing with alpha legion plague marines!
20 AL plague marines -3 to hit them and when you do they're T5 with a 5+ FNP.... gooooood luck shifting them
Glad you liked the idea!
It's a great idea but you are going to need cheap bikes to run escort or something similar. A rhino rushing forward is all fun and games until they charge cheap crap into it and wrap it up. Suddenly you have a tin can full of angry mates that cannot disembark. Heck they could not charge and just run a line in front of the tank. I still think it's a fun trick, but it is actually pretty easily managed while they just shoot over it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote: Ran the following tricks at tournament this last weekend. We allowed the new chaos codex but not vigulus for ease of "people learning the new rules" which considering i was the only chaos player i was ok with.
Dark apostle w/ -1 to hit prayer
Lord of skulls w/ gattling cannon and demagore cannon
2 defilers w/ scourges and autocannons
Herald of khorne w/ blood crown
Not the most powerful list but i won 3 out of 4 games! Only lost to genestealer cults due to mind control of my los and the resulting bloodshed lol. My fault for not having a proper screen set up.
The mvp was that lord of skulls though. He killed 5 of those damn ad mech shooty robots just from shooting (i was hoping for mortal wounds to bounce back and hurt me to anger the lord) and single handedly took out half of the opponents ad mech force by itself (and the dark apostle praying for -1 to hit).
In another game vs dark angels he killed a squad of 8 hellblasters "screeing" for azreal, a leutinant, and a company ancient with his guns then charged in and 1 shotted azreal. Belial teleported in with his terms and tried to save the others. Then the los killed belials terms with his guns and drove in and 1 shottrd belial! It was glorious, the los just standing there in the wreckage of the da lines tearing chrs appart while the rest of the force just spent their time grabbing objectives and doing whatever they felt like.
If your going to use the los, spend the points and give him that gattling and put a herald of khorne with the blood crown in range.
D6 auto hits w/ 6's generating additional hits and 12 str 8 ap-2 2d with again 6's generating additional hits, its very good. Especially on 28 wounds -1 to hit and taking damage makes it stronger.
As a GSC player I'll let you in on a secret. Always keep another model, preferably a scrub within 1" of your LOS. Mind control forces you to make a SINGLE melee attack if a model is within an inch of an enemy (which your models then become) rather then shoot all it's weapons.
PS it also has to shoot all it's guns into one target, not sure if he did or not but a ton of folks play that wrong.
Roknar wrote: so Chosen of the Pantheon. Is that just a trap or actually useful?
You could buff the bajesus out of one unit and have it to go on a murder rampage in theory , but the amount of CP and buffs it requires seems a little over the top?
You can't exactly afford to miss any attacks.
The obvious target would be terminators since they still get access to VotLW and bring both good shooting and melee, but the army woulld be basially cultists and a bunch of characters to milk he stratagem to the max.
I mean, if you're not using both the khorne stratagem and slaanesh , why bother? At the same time that would imply throwing all your cp at that one unit to become the mother of all one time trick ponies. (and not really since you can see it coming a mile away)
Maybe with demonic units and heralds but then you kind of still doing the same thing. Stacking them Strength auras on top of the daemon detachment buffs?
That might be somewhat affordable, not so sure about actually getting them all in range though.
It would be cool if we could use it efficiently on oblits to benefit from tree and fire twice. But as they typically start In reserves Its complicated.
I think the best way to play that stratagem is with passive buffs from demonic allies. Which means your wanting demonic models. Otherwise your just pouring way to much random onto a unit by using a laundry list of psychic powers. I think it has merit for sure, but it's pretty obvious your list is going to lean heavily into making that gimmick work.
Yeah i know about the keeping a guy within 1". Problem with the los specifically is he can shoot out of combat if the units he is in cc with are all infantry. Like i said i played that game wrong and payed the price
Latro_ wrote: did anyone catch d6 evolutions 50+ mortal wound black legion lord with a chainsword?
I don't think its actually 50+ mortal wounds. Its basically using the warlord trait 6+ to wound is a mortal wound and then using flawless host, dttfe, and other stuff to pop additional attacks and mortal wounds. Its not bad but it relys on a lot of different things to work and most of those things become dependent on other things. I don't expect it to become an actual thing you see in tournaments but its interesting.
Latro_ wrote: did anyone catch d6 evolutions 50+ mortal wound black legion lord with a chainsword?
I don't think its actually 50+ mortal wounds. Its basically using the warlord trait 6+ to wound is a mortal wound and then using flawless host, dttfe, and other stuff to pop additional attacks and mortal wounds. Its not bad but it relys on a lot of different things to work and most of those things become dependent on other things. I don't expect it to become an actual thing you see in tournaments but its interesting.
Latro_ wrote: did anyone catch d6 evolutions 50+ mortal wound black legion lord with a chainsword?
I don't think its actually 50+ mortal wounds. Its basically using the warlord trait 6+ to wound is a mortal wound and then using flawless host, dttfe, and other stuff to pop additional attacks and mortal wounds. Its not bad but it relys on a lot of different things to work and most of those things become dependent on other things. I don't expect it to become an actual thing you see in tournaments but its interesting.
Theres some merit to that as a kamikaze missile.
Do we really need another one of those?
Between Oblits, cultistbombs, bloodletters, etc i think we don't need another one.
Do we really need another one of those?
Between Oblits, cultistbombs, bloodletters, etc i think we don't need another one.
What is a cultist bomb?
The cultist shenanigans with tide, VotLW and Slaanesh cacophony, granted we ain't gonna see that that much anymore due to Mere Mortals, 5 ppm and 30 instead of 40.
Latro_ wrote: did anyone catch d6 evolutions 50+ mortal wound black legion lord with a chainsword?
I don't think its actually 50+ mortal wounds. Its basically using the warlord trait 6+ to wound is a mortal wound and then using flawless host, dttfe, and other stuff to pop additional attacks and mortal wounds. Its not bad but it relys on a lot of different things to work and most of those things become dependent on other things. I don't expect it to become an actual thing you see in tournaments but its interesting.
It is a Black Legion Lord, with the chainsword relic and another chainsword, as well as the warlord trait, so he gets 7 attacks that deal 2 mortal wounds on 6+ (5+ with VotLW), most likely with jump pack. It doesn't require much to work as is, and it is pretty strong, since 6 of the attacks are AP -3 and D2. Add in Fury of Khorne if needed. Pretty much a shield captain on steroids.
You can then add stuff on top, like reroll to wounds from an exalted champion, diabolic strength, Dark apostle's +1 to wound, etc. But if you plan on deepstricking it, I don't think you'll really get to use all those buffs.
Latro_ wrote: did anyone catch d6 evolutions 50+ mortal wound black legion lord with a chainsword?
I don't think its actually 50+ mortal wounds. Its basically using the warlord trait 6+ to wound is a mortal wound and then using flawless host, dttfe, and other stuff to pop additional attacks and mortal wounds. Its not bad but it relys on a lot of different things to work and most of those things become dependent on other things. I don't expect it to become an actual thing you see in tournaments but its interesting.
It is a Black Legion Lord, with the chainsword relic and another chainsword, as well as the warlord trait, so he gets 7 attacks that deal 2 mortal wounds on 6+ (5+ with VotLW), most likely with jump pack. It doesn't require much to work as is, and it is pretty strong, since 6 of the attacks are AP -3 and D2. Add in Fury of Khorne if needed. Pretty much a shield captain on steroids.
You can then add stuff on top, like reroll to wounds from an exalted champion, diabolic strength, Dark apostle's +1 to wound, etc. But if you plan on deepstricking it, I don't think you'll really get to use all those buffs.
Switch out the regular Chainsword for a Bolt Pistol and use the D3 Mortal Wounds of course!
dominuschao wrote: I'm really liking scourged personally. Really solid trait and the strat is a deterrent at the least.
Anyone else on scourged or is it mostly RC?
Debating internally atm between scouged, purge for a csm gunline army.
The Purge offers some really nice dice stacking if you run many msu, you can easily improve your rate of wounding alot.
Scourged is better at defending. However r&h have a similiar trait and as amazing as it sounds it's more ehhh then one thinks.
Relic wise i belive there can be a case made for the scourged.
Purged look decent too. I just hate having rules that force or at least effect my decisions like that. Haven't looked at RH in a long time honestly.
What I know I will enjoy is overwatch 5+ from oblits and reaper cc's plus built in reroll on my plasma/las etc. I honestly think this faction is under the radar atm. Plus it has great synergy with rubrics who need it (and maybe some love from the big FUQ). Hmm now that I'm thinking on it more rubrics go well with purged too.
I was pretty stoked about daemonkin ritualists too until I noticed their strat requires a MOP. I'm still bent on trying possessed. Again. But this time with greater posse support.
Edit- on that note greater possessed can benefit from "I am alpharius" which is cool.
dominuschao wrote: I'm really liking scourged personally. Really solid trait and the strat is a deterrent at the least.
Anyone else on scourged or is it mostly RC?
Debating internally atm between scouged, purge for a csm gunline army.
The Purge offers some really nice dice stacking if you run many msu, you can easily improve your rate of wounding alot.
Scourged is better at defending. However r&h have a similiar trait and as amazing as it sounds it's more ehhh then one thinks.
Relic wise i belive there can be a case made for the scourged.
Purged look decent too. I just hate having rules that force or at least effect my decisions like that. Haven't looked at RH in a long time honestly.
What I know I will enjoy is overwatch 5+ from oblits and reaper cc's plus built in reroll on my plasma/las etc. I honestly think this faction is under the radar atm. Plus it has great synergy with rubrics who need it (and maybe some love from the big FUQ). Hmm now that I'm thinking on it more rubrics go well with purged too.
I was pretty stoked about daemonkin ritualists too until I noticed their strat requires a MOP. I'm still bent on trying possessed. Again. But this time with greater posse support.
Edit- on that note greater possessed can benefit from "I am alpharius" which is cool.
Cheap characters that can handle themselves in combat are a perfect candidate for Alpha Legion for that reason. I can't see them doing great overall though.
I am sorely tempted to try out the 28 CP Huron list just to see if having a truckload of CP and being able to recycle CSM squads for what should be the majority of the game can get the job done.
dominuschao wrote: I'm really liking scourged personally. Really solid trait and the strat is a deterrent at the least.
Anyone else on scourged or is it mostly RC?
Debating internally atm between scouged, purge for a csm gunline army.
The Purge offers some really nice dice stacking if you run many msu, you can easily improve your rate of wounding alot.
Scourged is better at defending. However r&h have a similiar trait and as amazing as it sounds it's more ehhh then one thinks.
Relic wise i belive there can be a case made for the scourged.
Purged look decent too. I just hate having rules that force or at least effect my decisions like that. Haven't looked at RH in a long time honestly.
What I know I will enjoy is overwatch 5+ from oblits and reaper cc's plus built in reroll on my plasma/las etc. I honestly think this faction is under the radar atm. Plus it has great synergy with rubrics who need it (and maybe some love from the big FUQ). Hmm now that I'm thinking on it more rubrics go well with purged too.
I was pretty stoked about daemonkin ritualists too until I noticed their strat requires a MOP. I'm still bent on trying possessed. Again. But this time with greater posse support.
Edit- on that note greater possessed can benefit from "I am alpharius" which is cool.
Cheap characters that can handle themselves in combat are a perfect candidate for Alpha Legion for that reason. I can't see them doing great overall though.
Probably not. Flawless host possessed with a shepherd otoh I think is going to be pretty effective. Its the other concept I've been stewing on.. double possessed in rhinos with greater posse attached. Or horde style slogging. Either way they don't fold as easy as zerks if I don't pull off the charge and they will hit like a truck with prescience and ultimate confidence plus shepherds mortal wounds.
Azuza001 wrote: Ran the following tricks at tournament this last weekend. We allowed the new chaos codex but not vigulus for ease of "people learning the new rules" which considering i was the only chaos player i was ok with.
Dark apostle w/ -1 to hit prayer
Lord of skulls w/ gattling cannon and demagore cannon
2 defilers w/ scourges and autocannons
Herald of khorne w/ blood crown
Not the most powerful list but i won 3 out of 4 games! Only lost to genestealer cults due to mind control of my los and the resulting bloodshed lol. My fault for not having a proper screen set up.
The mvp was that lord of skulls though. He killed 5 of those damn ad mech shooty robots just from shooting (i was hoping for mortal wounds to bounce back and hurt me to anger the lord) and single handedly took out half of the opponents ad mech force by itself (and the dark apostle praying for -1 to hit).
In another game vs dark angels he killed a squad of 8 hellblasters "screeing" for azreal, a leutinant, and a company ancient with his guns then charged in and 1 shotted azreal. Belial teleported in with his terms and tried to save the others. Then the los killed belials terms with his guns and drove in and 1 shottrd belial! It was glorious, the los just standing there in the wreckage of the da lines tearing chrs appart while the rest of the force just spent their time grabbing objectives and doing whatever they felt like.
If your going to use the los, spend the points and give him that gattling and put a herald of khorne with the blood crown in range.
D6 auto hits w/ 6's generating additional hits and 12 str 8 ap-2 2d with again 6's generating additional hits, its very good. Especially on 28 wounds -1 to hit and taking damage makes it stronger.
That's wonderful! Thanks for sharing! I love my LOS model. But my friends know what's it capable of and always avoid it, block it, and play missions. Very canny. May I ask, you took the Khorne bloodmaster as an auxiliary support and took a -1 CP for that? And how did you play the crown, just 1 additional shot right? I hope you didn't play that a 6 gives you 12 additional shot from your LOS gatling cannon lol. And how did Abaddon fare? I am still figuring out what's the best way to use him.
btw, if you just want to make your list and LS even better. Just use him as iron warriors legion. Then he gets the iron within iron without strategem that gives him 6+ FNP. You may think that's not much, but when the opponent is trying to focus him down, over the course of his 28 wounds, that 6+ FNP will actually end up saving quite a few wounds!
Latro_ wrote: did anyone catch d6 evolutions 50+ mortal wound black legion lord with a chainsword?
Its not flawless host. He suggested using the jumppack chaos lord with the black legion relic Ghorisvex"s Teeth and with the warlord trait flames of spite. Then you use VOTLW. Ghorisvex's teeth is a relic chainsword that gives 2 additional attacks. And its profile is strength user, AP -3, D2. Plus the relic causes you to do mortal wounds on a 6+. So with VOTLW, you will be doing mortal wounds on a 5+. Flames of spite is similar. So you end up doing mortal wounds galore as long as you roll high when you are trying to wound.
The main issue with that is that you have to make this jump pack chaos lord your warlord to give him flames of spite warlord trait. And we all know that chaos lords aren't exactly the most resilient things around. He will jump in, do his thing, and if he gets exposed to ranged fire, he will die quite easily. Even a counter attack melee from another good melee character has a good chance of killing him since he only has a 4++ save. So, the issue becomes, do you want to risk giving up Slay the warlord by running him, because chances of him dying are quite high.
We could go with Ghorisvex's teeth alone, but it would definitely weaken the build. The biggest benefit about this build is that its amazingly cheap. chain swords don't cost any points, and he can bring double chain swords so that with the relic, he gets +3 attacks. You would have a jump pack warlord who can take down almost anything (because he is causing mortal wounds) for under 100 points.
The problem, like I said, is that you need to make that your warlord, and giving up slay the warlord for him is quite possible.
opps my bad, VOTLW would make it trigger on a 5+, not prescience. You don't need prescience.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: Just checking-the Teeth relic works on HIT-ROLLS, right? Not wound rolls?
Same for Flames of Spite?
Because if not, Prescience does diddly for that.
No, sorry it triggers on wound rolls of 6+, not hit rolls.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: 6+ FNP on a many-wound model averages to a 20% increase in wounds.
So, at 28 wounds, that's an extra 5.6 wounds, if they manage to kill it in one round OR you pop the FNP Strat every round he lives.
Yup. it does. And no other legion trait benefits LOS that much, so might as well make it Iron warriors legion. I just say fluff wise that iron warriors agreed to lend their aid to Abaddon's black crusade and hence we had a iron warrior's LOS tag along in the army.
Oh, I just realised, he is using the new DA to cast the prayer to -1 to hit. This causes problems. I believe the DA's prayer only affects the same legion. So they all need to be in black legion.. Last time I used this for my LOS, the new DA wasn't in play. You would have to take a supreme command detachment and fit the DA into it with your LOS along with 2 other heroes.
The problem with LOS is that its so so expensive, and the damage it puts out can't really be compared to the likes of a Castallan. But I love the model because I spent months painting it. It makes such a great centrepiece. Also, right now, with the new assassins coming into play. This is probably the biggest model we have that can quite easily block line of sight for our footslogging characters from those pesky Vindicare Assassins. They can hide behind its great bulk out of line of sight and still move up the field.
Also, another benefit to the LOS is that the threat of warptime on it is a constant one. You think you know its threat range, but one well timed warptime and it can move up to 20 inches instead of its normal 10.
The LOS also doesn't really benefit as much from being in a soulforged pack detachment. Not unless you are running a Lord Discordant to give it a +1 to hit. Its already BS 3+ and you will definitely use daemon forge on it so that it can reroll hits and wounds. And moving doesn't affect its shooting BS because it is just that cool. And LOS gets more attacks as it takes damage. So, the strategem from the Soulforged pack to double its effective hp on damage table actually means it will reduce the number of attacks if you use that strategem. And all of the LOS guns are heavy (even its big belly flamer). so, you never ever want to advance with the LOS. (Unless in the super niche situation where that d6 makes such a big difference that forgoing all your shooting is worth considering).
How i was running the LOS in its entirety was dark apostle giving it -1 to hit, herald of khorne giving it +1 str and 6's to wound are an additional attack with that weapon (yes this cost 2cp total to just set into motion). I have also ran him with a warpsmith and master of possession, being able to heal him 5-7 wounds a turn can be super nasty. But honestly i have noticed the -1 to hit seems to do more than enough to make your opponent just not want to shoot at it. Then i used demonforge strat on it every turn, its going to do a ton of damage rerolling all failed hits and wounds.
I like iron within / iron without but as others noticed / mentioned we need to keep inside the same legion. I suppose you could go warpsmith, dark apostle, and master of possession with the lord of skulls for a stand alone chaos detachment of crazy.... it would cost 893 pts but...
Dark apostle gives -1 to hit. Warpsmith heals d3 wounds. Los heals 1 wound. Master of possession heals 3 (sacrifice from warpsmith to los) and cursed earth for 4++ save.
Now you have a los putting out 12 str 8 ap-2 d2 shots rerolling failed hits and wounds and d6str 10 ap-2 d3 shots rerolling wounds that can heal 5-7 wounds a turn and is -1 to hit and has a 3+/4++/6+++ save. Put it on a center objective and force your opponent to deal with it, even if you dont charge / get into cc its going to rape vehicles. And they cant even bog it down in cc. Its a nasty beast. And 900 pts....
Azuza001 wrote: How i was running the LOS in its entirety was dark apostle giving it -1 to hit, herald of khorne giving it +1 str and 6's to wound are an additional attack with that weapon (yes this cost 2cp total to just set into motion). I have also ran him with a warpsmith and master of possession, being able to heal him 5-7 wounds a turn can be super nasty. But honestly i have noticed the -1 to hit seems to do more than enough to make your opponent just not want to shoot at it. Then i used demonforge strat on it every turn, its going to do a ton of damage rerolling all failed hits and wounds.
I like iron within / iron without but as others noticed / mentioned we need to keep inside the same legion. I suppose you could go warpsmith, dark apostle, and master of possession with the lord of skulls for a stand alone chaos detachment of crazy.... it would cost 893 pts but...
Dark apostle gives -1 to hit. Warpsmith heals d3 wounds. Los heals 1 wound. Master of possession heals 3 (sacrifice from warpsmith to los) and cursed earth for 4++ save.
Now you have a los putting out 12 str 8 ap-2 d2 shots rerolling failed hits and wounds and d6str 10 ap-2 d3 shots rerolling wounds that can heal 5-7 wounds a turn and is -1 to hit and has a 3+/4++/6+++ save. Put it on a center objective and force your opponent to deal with it, even if you dont charge / get into cc its going to rape vehicles. And they cant even bog it down in cc. Its a nasty beast. And 900 pts....
If I ran a supreme command detachment. I would actually be tempted to put in a unit of possessed. So the HQ would be DA, MOP and a sorceror. Then I could go Iron warriors, and place the sorceror elsewhere (anyway, sorceror can support other legions just fine). The MOP would not only buff the LOS but would also buff the unit of possessed. And after early rounds, when we have reached a stage where nothing is likely to kill the LOS anymore, then the DA would switch from buffing the LOS to buffing the possessed (whether by giving them -1 to hit or making them reroll all hits in melee).
And I might then run Daemonkin Ritualists. Don't need Soulforged pack. Its just that possessed are not cheap also. So, we are going to be looking at a really hefty investment into that supreme command...
Azuza, may I ask how Abaddon did in your lists? Was he worth his points? I love and want to run him too. I am amazed that you managed to squeeze him into your list, which already has the expensive LOS. I would have gone full IW legion and given the warlord cold and bitter trait. It would have the same effect as Abbadon except maybe they shoot slightly less well... A lot of points saved. Given the huge investment that LOS is... And was it difficult to screen? Because your units didn't have alot of units. So, if you faced say a guard list with like tons of cheap infantry units running around, was that an issue?
Has anyone done the math for how one Greater possessed compares with a unit of 5 possessed. It shouldn't be much of a comparision, but I just realised that a greater possessed comes with stat 5 across the board and d3 damage standard. And he (if given mark of Khorne) and the blood master will buff each other. So, he will get +2str for Str 7 and the daemonkin strategem will give him +1str +1 attack. He would be rocking Str 8 attacks, with wound rolls of 6 from the blood crown giving him extra attacks... The blood master, with unstoppable ferocity, his aura, would also be rocking Str 7 attacks which are d3 dmg.
Leaving aside the LOS, the two of them (greater possessed and Bloodmaster) would both be pretty scary in close combat ... Once we reach turn 3 or 4 if we have destroyed anything that can be a threat to the LOS, the Greater possessed, the MOP and the Bloodmaster can be free to split off go off and form their own mini death ball of killy doom. In a way, the LOS is "escorting" these 3 across the board since they can hide behind its huge bulk until they are across the board and juicy targets present themselves.
With these new CSM updates I'm inclined to think GW has doubled down on chaos being intended to be more of a close quarters army. I've never felt I've fully gotten my money's worth out of Abaddon, he is an auto-include for me but I'm not sure he normally makes his points back. His buffing aura is great but you can buy an awful lot for 240pts that the extra hits he provides would surely outweigh.
I need to get him into combat more, I need him more alongside the new melee goodies we have received in the last few weeks. His strength and wounds boost just underlines that. The chaingun and the nerf to cultists means I don't need his morale bubble to babysit cultists anymore either.
What are people's thoughts on best ways to utilise Ab? Deepstrike? Footslog? Is a land raider viable again running up behind daemon engines it's unlikely to get tagged.
I was hoping terminators would get enough of a boost to provide a suitable retinue for Abaddon to deepstrike in with but unfortunately they have simply been made more budget rather than better and the new formation doesn't help if you have Abaddon anyway.
If only we had some kind of honour guard
For the giggles has anyone done a black legion max termi squad drop the all Mark's strat on them and have a da and 3 sorcerers make em -2 to hit with a 4+ inv and 5+ fnp?
Abaddon303 wrote: With these new CSM updates I'm inclined to think GW has doubled down on chaos being intended to be more of a close quarters army. I've never felt I've fully gotten my money's worth out of Abaddon, he is an auto-include for me but I'm not sure he normally makes his points back. His buffing aura is great but you can buy an awful lot for 240pts that the extra hits he provides would surely outweigh.
I need to get him into combat more, I need him more alongside the new melee goodies we have received in the last few weeks. His strength and wounds boost just underlines that. The chaingun and the nerf to cultists means I don't need his morale bubble to babysit cultists anymore either.
What are people's thoughts on best ways to utilise Ab? Deepstrike? Footslog? Is a land raider viable again running up behind daemon engines it's unlikely to get tagged.
I was hoping terminators would get enough of a boost to provide a suitable retinue for Abaddon to deepstrike in with but unfortunately they have simply been made more budget rather than better and the new formation doesn't help if you have Abaddon anyway.
If only we had some kind of honour guard
Terminators might work out okay if you stack the -1 to be hit prayer and a defensive psychic buff (either another -1 to be hit from nurgle, or 5+++ from slaanesh.) This requires an apostle and sorc, so it's a pretty expensive death star. But it is damn hard to kill. If you deploy it on the board and don't get first turn, you can still use the Prayer. You probably won't get into melee until turn 3 either footslogging or deep striking unless you use warp time.
I'm thinking about deepstriking with a mass of combi-plasma terminators after using chain cannons to clear chaff turn 1.
That's kind of where I'm at too. Dropping in turn 2 with lots of plasma I'm not too bothered about getting into combat that turn, my daemon engines should be hitting at that point. Just need to keep them alive until turn three but hopefully there'll be enough threat saturation to keep them alive.
Here's some numbers for terminators. The point here is to give more of an idea of just what you can expect these to be able to kill. The plasma shot is overcharged.
EDIT: Had the combi-bolter+chainaxe terminators at 28 instead of 29. Fixed that. Makes almost no difference because this spreadsheet is only going to 2 decimal places anyway.
With the combi-bolter you can expect to kill about 1 horde unit per terminator, and 1 marine per 2 terminators. Of course its a little better still if you've got full re-rolls to hit from Abaddon.
The melee is actually less efficient than the shooting in most cases since 2 more shots is better than +1str and -1ap. But of course it's a lot easier to get re-roll wounds for Chaos in melee than re-roll shooting. What's interesting to note is that while the power axe is going to kill a bit more stuff, it's not actually more points efficient. It stays about even. So that extra -1 ap apparently is worth the extra 4pts, at least on a terminator.
So these combi-bolters can kill hordes, but we're still looking at a 29pt model averaging 1-1.5 kills per volley vs 4-6pt models.That's solidly in "you will never make your points back" territory. They are about half as efficient at killing Guardsmen as the Chain Cannon havoc, and about the same as autocannon havocs. In melee they are not a ton better. The combi-plasma overcharge has worse numbers against hordes, similar again MeQs, and much better vs multi-wound stuff and tanks. And that's with just the 1 shot at 24". If you get within 12", you'll double that. And now you're getting about the same killing efficiency vs hordes, and 2-6 times more against other models, despite costing ~30% more points. That's a big jump! And of course you can fire on standard profile to save yourself some risk and still get the same results vs guardsmen and eldar.
And this isn't taking into account firing both the bolter and plasma profile. Even with the -1 to hit, that'll easily overtake the combi-bolter, even at 24" vs hordes (and you don't need the overcharge vs them.) So the combi-plasma is just flat out better. And keep in mind that the only reason the combi-bolter was even competing with the single plasma shot at 24" is because of the Beta bolter rule. Without that, it's a flop.
This all isn't really surprising. Plasma is really good this edition. Bolters are bad. Combi-weapons getting to fire both profiles is also super good. As I've said before, if the combi-bolter had even just a little something extra, like -1 AP or something, then it'd have a decent role still. But as things stand, point for point, combi-plasma blows it out of the water at it's own game, and can also kill anything else on the board.
So before we were looking at plasma squads and cheap bolter squads. But given just how poorly the combi-bolter actually does, my suggestion is that even cheap squads should have some combi-plasma. A 2:3 or 3:2 ratio would probably work out okay, and provides ablative wounds.
So these combi-bolters can kill hordes, but we're still looking at a 28pt model averaging 1-1.5 kills per volley vs 4-6pt models.That's solidly in "you will never make your points back" territory. They are about half as efficient at killing Guardsmen as the Chain Cannon havoc, and about the same as autocannon havocs. In melee they are not a ton better.
29 no,? Considering you always need to buy a melee weapon aswell.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: I am sorely tempted to try out the 28 CP Huron list just to see if having a truckload of CP and being able to recycle CSM squads for what should be the majority of the game can get the job done.
I recently played smaller point game (1500) with Huron and a brick of 20 CSM. They still die like nats when they draw attention. I got super lucky though and had the perfect scenario where 19 of the 20 died (rolled hot saves on the final volley) while I had 5 CP left, so I auto passed moral and brought them all back. The most hilarious part was Huron casting warp time on them or himself all game and them moving across half the table grabbing objectives. Reminded me of playing my Guard and using move move move only it felt funny using marines.
dominuschao wrote: I'm really liking scourged personally. Really solid trait and the strat is a deterrent at the least.
Anyone else on scourged or is it mostly RC?
Debating internally atm between scouged, purge for a csm gunline army.
The Purge offers some really nice dice stacking if you run many msu, you can easily improve your rate of wounding alot.
Scourged is better at defending. However r&h have a similiar trait and as amazing as it sounds it's more ehhh then one thinks.
Relic wise i belive there can be a case made for the scourged.
Purged look decent too. I just hate having rules that force or at least effect my decisions like that. Haven't looked at RH in a long time honestly.
What I know I will enjoy is overwatch 5+ from oblits and reaper cc's plus built in reroll on my plasma/las etc. I honestly think this faction is under the radar atm. Plus it has great synergy with rubrics who need it (and maybe some love from the big FUQ). Hmm now that I'm thinking on it more rubrics go well with purged too.
I was pretty stoked about daemonkin ritualists too until I noticed their strat requires a MOP. I'm still bent on trying possessed. Again. But this time with greater posse support.
Edit- on that note greater possessed can benefit from "I am alpharius" which is cool.
Cheap characters that can handle themselves in combat are a perfect candidate for Alpha Legion for that reason. I can't see them doing great overall though.
Probably not. Flawless host possessed with a shepherd otoh I think is going to be pretty effective. Its the other concept I've been stewing on.. double possessed in rhinos with greater posse attached. Or horde style slogging. Either way they don't fold as easy as zerks if I don't pull off the charge and they will hit like a truck with prescience and ultimate confidence plus shepherds mortal wounds.
The trick is finding models I am not embarrassed to put on the table I'm using Ghal Vorbak for my greater possessed, gotta think of a kitbash for possessed that won't break the bank.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: 6+ FNP on a many-wound model averages to a 20% increase in wounds.
So, at 28 wounds, that's an extra 5.6 wounds, if they manage to kill it in one round OR you pop the FNP Strat every round he lives.
If you use it every round the numbers would change since he regains a wound every turn.
Abaddon did not disappoint. He was the linchpin of the 40 chaos marines i took. Against the da player he nominated abbadon as the person who knew where the fallen were (ok, make him stronger...) and then he deep struck a squad of deathwing terms with maces and a flail onto the board and charged him. They managed to do 6 wounds to abby. In response abby wiped the squad without a second thought.
He is tough as nails, gives free rerolls (which helped the defilers) and kept the infantry in line. If your taking blobs then he is a no brainer. Finally the extra two cp is what allowed me to go as far with cp usage as I did.
I’m personally thinking about running Abaddon in a mixed Supreme Command Detachment without any other Black Legion included in the army.
Also, the Dark Disciples cost 10 points, right? Battlescribe seems to have them down as being free – and Huron costing 1CP to be taken as WL, rather than +1CP
I don't see running abandon in a supreme command without other black legion as a worth while investment. He only gives rerolls to other black legion units.
I don't see running abandon in a supreme command without other black legion as a worth while investment. He only gives rerolls to other black legion units.
Assuming you somehow justify his price tag, he DOES have the morale gimmick we can't get otherwise without using up a valuable Warlord trait.
I don't see running abandon in a supreme command without other black legion as a worth while investment. He only gives rerolls to other black legion units.
In a way, but, I see him more for his melee threat and ability to ignore morale on my 3+/5++/5+++ -1 to hit CSM screening unit to help get him up the table.
But that squad of 3+/5++/5+++ -1 to hit can be black legion....
I am assuming possessed w/ mark of slaanesh, a sorcerer casting delightful agonies, and an apostle praying for -1 to hit? And abby gives them reroll failed hits.
Much as I like squads CSM more since the introduction of the chaingun, I'm still not sure about taking anymore than is needed for a battalion. I think I'd rather spend the extra couple of points on chosen with combi bolters personally.
10 acting as a retinue for Abaddon and benefiting from his aura, even advancing you should be landing 15 bolter shots a turn and moving 9/10 inches to try to keep up with your demon engines
I just thought of something new. Not sure if discussed here. Chosen at 14 points per model. They can now use thunderhammers for an additional 16 points each. So 30 points per model. Very fragile. BUT, we can now put them into a Rhino that we can buff to get a -3 to hit. And to get maximum bang for our buck, go world eaters for a +1 attack. So now, our normal chosen gets 3 attacks on the charge while our chosen champion has 4 attacks!
So, if we fill up a Rhino with Kharn, an exalted Champion and 8 chosen ( 7 thunderhammers and 1 chainsword just to make it a bit cheaper). Now, this unit of 8 chosen with icon of wrath only cost 234 points. So, you use the priest to pray -1 to hit, then charge this Rhino up the board, pop smoke, and cast miasma of pestilence on it for the sweet -3.
Turn 2, you get out 3 inches, move 6 inches, and then you have a rerollable charge of 2d6. Even against a T8 knight, your chosen unit will now have 22 thunderhammers attacks. Kharn gives them reroll to hit, exalted champion gives them reroll to wound, and VOTLW means their hammers now wound a knight on a 3+. Have the same sorceror now cast prescience on them, so they can even proc DTTFE. 22 thunderhammer attacks at 3 damage flat each can do a maximum of 66 damage, before even counting DTTFE. They can and WILL smash a full health castellan or knight to many itty bitty pieces lol. (Kharn and the exalted Champ don't need to charge into the knight at all, just let the hammers do all the work). Kharn and the exalted champion are not wasted anyway, because a world eaters army will have tons of berzerkers to go with this anyway.
World Easter have often had problems with armour, and maulerfiends were an imperfect solution. Now we can mix in chosen squads armed with Thunder hammers along with other standard zerker squads and just go about it with a full power armor army. lol
Now, the squad was 234 points. So even if it got shot off the board after killing the knight or castellan, it would have been worth it. Now, if you go in unsupported and just rely on VOTLW. Then a max thunderhammer squad of chosen cost 310 points (including icon of wrath). And with VOTL, but without any support from anyone else, would do 31 thunderhammer attacks. But they would be 4+ to hit, though VOTLW will still give them 3+ to wound. The knight would get only 6s to save in close combat.
I worked it out and a max unit of 10 WE thunderhammer chosen would do (31 x 0.5 x 0.666 x 0.833) x 3 = 25.8 wounds on average. So, on average they would smash a 24W knight to pieces, but not quite a 28W Castellan. So, I would honestly suggest having Kharn and the exalted Champ in the Rhino anyway. It makes sense that if you are going to put (the 8 man chosen 234 points + Kharn 120 points + exalted champ w power axe 75 points) = a total of 429 points into a Rhino and make it -3 to hit, protecting 429 points of stuff is a lot better than protecting just 310 points of stuff.
So... anyone want to try out the Rhino bus of thunderhammer doom? lol I think it would be hilarious if we used a chosen squad to smash an imperial knight into pieces...lol
I don't see running abandon in a supreme command without other black legion as a worth while investment. He only gives rerolls to other black legion units.
Assuming you somehow justify his price tag, he DOES have the morale gimmick we can't get otherwise without using up a valuable Warlord trait.
Just throwing this out here. For morale handling. Other than Abaddon and a Iron Warriors warlord with the cold and bitter warlord trait. You can also do this. Make a bringers of despair detachment. Now, with 1 cp, any bringers of despair detachment can make any Heretic Astartes unit within 18 inches autopass their morale. Its obviously not as good as Abaddon, but 1 cp is still cheaper than 2CP autopass morale strategem. And if you plan to run black legion terminators on the board anyway...
Gorgnoob wrote: I am afraid that WE Chosen have to use WE Rhino...so no Mark of Nurgle for -1 to hit psychic power.
zzz.... well, ok -2 to hit then. Not the best, but if we want to go WE... no choice. :X
Even without prescience, if you only have Kharn's reroll to hit and the exalted champion's reroll to wound, and VOTLW, a big unit of chosen with Thunderhammers should still be able to smash a knight into pieces.
Alternatively, we can use black legion. Then have the berserkers use the 1CP strategem mercilous fighters. The chosen squad will outnumber one lone knight, so they will all get +1 attack, so end up same as WE. The only thing is you have to replace Kharn with a chaos lord for a reroll 1 to hit. But then you still get to have the -3 to hit Rhino.
So, its either full WE for a -2 to hit Rhino or black legion with a -3 to hit Rhino but a chaos lord instead of Kharn.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I don't think Chosen are allowed to take that many melee weapons anyway though are they? I thought it was limited like the Special Weapons.
Either way, I think 6 dudes with Combi-Bolters and a Chaincannon will be my default to them.
I haven't opened the codex in a while though.
They are. I have the new chaos codex in front of me right now. It says any chosen may take one item from the melee weapons list. It also says that the chosen champion can either take one item from the melee weapons list or etc etc.
The melee weapon list is the list that contains thunderhammers. So, based on this, you can literally have any number of chosen in your squad take thunderhammers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok, expanding on this strategy abit. I ... just thought of a way to use a land raider... lol.
So, use black legion, DA, nurgle sorceror and a Land raider with Mark of Nurgle. So, again, -1 to hit prayer, miasma, and the Land raider charges up the board and pops smoke. Flank it with two squads of combi bolter bikes for chaff clearing and so that he cannot use the cheap surround trick to prevent you from disembarking.
So now, turn 1, he needs to kill a 16W, 2+ save Landraider that is -3 to hit. Here is where the difference is. We put Abaddon, an exalted champion, and that squad of 8 chosen with thunderhammers into it.
Turn 2, Abby disembarks 3 inches from the LR, his base is huge, then he moves 6 inches, and he charges something big. (I heard that someone said here Abby can take down a knight on the charge). The chosen and exalted champion go off and kill another knight. Anyway, if they can't finish off something, have the Land raider's 4 lascannons finish the job. lol.
Its a ton of points, but wow... it will hit like a ton of bricks! And most importantly, we get to move Abby up the board and have him charge something in the opponents lines by turn 2!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I don't think Chosen are allowed to take that many melee weapons anyway though are they? I thought it was limited like the Special Weapons.
Either way, I think 6 dudes with Combi-Bolters and a Chaincannon will be my default to them.
I haven't opened the codex in a while though.
In the latest Errata (Jan?) they changed it so that any number of chosen can take item from the melee-weapons list.
(Restriction on combi/special-weapons are still the same as before.)
With that said, while giving a Rhino -2 to being hit is nice and all - if you're investing that many points in a Chosen-unit (and Apostle), I'd go all the way and put them in a Land Raider instead. You can still give it -2 to being hit.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I don't think Chosen are allowed to take that many melee weapons anyway though are they? I thought it was limited like the Special Weapons.
Either way, I think 6 dudes with Combi-Bolters and a Chaincannon will be my default to them.
I haven't opened the codex in a while though.
In the latest Errata (Jan?) they changed it so that any number of chosen can take item from the melee-weapons list.
(Restriction on combi/special-weapons are still the same as before.)
With that said, while giving a Rhino -2 to being hit is nice and all - if you're investing that many points in a Chosen-unit (and Apostle), I'd go all the way and put them in a Land Raider instead. You can still give it -2 to being hit.
I thought the errata was just to strictly give them Chainswords like they had before. My mistake.
Thinking which way to take this new vigulus stuff and realised that since Flawless Host don't have to take mark of slanesh. You could take a Khorne host raptorial detachment and use the crimson crown. Say Jump pack lord with flawless cloak and +2 to charge trait, slanesh damemon prince with elixir to cast prescience and however you fancy taking a khorne character with crimson crown.
10 warp talons will drop in, charge on 7+, no 9ver watch, do 3 hits on a 5+ (4 to imperial). That's and adverage of 37 hits. Rerolling wounds, -2ap. For 3CP do it all over again.
Your lord and possibly khorne character following in could make a decent mele bomb that's more resilient that the bloodletters bomb and wounds pretty much anything under t8 reliably.
small_gods wrote: Thinking which way to take this new vigulus stuff and realised that since Flawless Host don't have to take mark of slanesh. You could take a Khorne host raptorial detachment and use the crimson crown. Say Jump pack lord with flawless cloak and +2 to charge trait, slanesh damemon prince with elixir to cast prescience and however you fancy taking a khorne character with crimson crown.
10 warp talons will drop in, charge on 7+, no 9ver watch, do 3 hits on a 5+ (4 to imperial). That's and adverage of 37 hits. Rerolling wounds, -2ap. For 3CP do it all over again.
Your lord and possibly khorne character following in could make a decent mele bomb that's more resilient that the bloodletters bomb and wounds pretty much anything under t8 reliably.
Its a cool strategy. If I did this though, I would seriously consider taking a Khorne patrol to get a blood master anyway. The blood master with loci of Khorne gives reroll to charge to all khorne daemons and +1 str to all Khorne daemons. So, since we have Khorne DP and Khorne warp talons, these will both get a reroll to charge and a +1 Str. BTW, your DP (whether Khorne or slanaash) will still have to roll a 9 inch to charge... because they are not jump pack, so they cannot be part of host raptorial detachment. And also, I believe crimson crown is a daemon relic. So, yeah. we are getting that blood master after all. lol
small_gods wrote: Thinking which way to take this new vigulus stuff and realised that since Flawless Host don't have to take mark of slanesh. You could take a Khorne host raptorial detachment and use the crimson crown. Say Jump pack lord with flawless cloak and +2 to charge trait, slanesh damemon prince with elixir to cast prescience and however you fancy taking a khorne character with crimson crown.
10 warp talons will drop in, charge on 7+, no 9ver watch, do 3 hits on a 5+ (4 to imperial). That's and adverage of 37 hits. Rerolling wounds, -2ap. For 3CP do it all over again.
Your lord and possibly khorne character following in could make a decent mele bomb that's more resilient that the bloodletters bomb and wounds pretty much anything under t8 reliably.
Its a cool strategy. If I did this though, I would seriously consider taking a Khorne patrol to get a blood master anyway. The blood master with loci of Khorne gives reroll to charge to all khorne daemons and +1 str to all Khorne daemons. So, since we have Khorne DP and Khorne warp talons, these will both get a reroll to charge and a +1 Str. BTW, your DP (whether Khorne or slanaash) will still have to roll a 9 inch to charge... because they are not jump pack, so they cannot be part of host raptorial detachment. And also, I believe crimson crown is a daemon relic. So, yeah. we are getting that blood master after all. lol
Also dependant on gw NOT looking the monogod renegades.
small_gods wrote: Thinking which way to take this new vigulus stuff and realised that since Flawless Host don't have to take mark of slanesh. You could take a Khorne host raptorial detachment and use the crimson crown. Say Jump pack lord with flawless cloak and +2 to charge trait, slanesh damemon prince with elixir to cast prescience and however you fancy taking a khorne character with crimson crown.
10 warp talons will drop in, charge on 7+, no 9ver watch, do 3 hits on a 5+ (4 to imperial). That's and adverage of 37 hits. Rerolling wounds, -2ap. For 3CP do it all over again.
Your lord and possibly khorne character following in could make a decent mele bomb that's more resilient that the bloodletters bomb and wounds pretty much anything under t8 reliably.
Its a cool strategy. If I did this though, I would seriously consider taking a Khorne patrol to get a blood master anyway. The blood master with loci of Khorne gives reroll to charge to all khorne daemons and +1 str to all Khorne daemons. So, since we have Khorne DP and Khorne warp talons, these will both get a reroll to charge and a +1 Str. BTW, your DP (whether Khorne or slanaash) will still have to roll a 9 inch to charge... because they are not jump pack, so they cannot be part of host raptorial detachment. And also, I believe crimson crown is a daemon relic. So, yeah. we are getting that blood master after all. lol
Hadn't even thought aboit the herald, that would adverage 17 wounds on a knight. And wipe pretty much anything else out.
I already have most of the models anyway so not too worries about GW errata, although it would be a risky purchase for sure.
I don't know if GW will errata something like this. Is it that OP a strategy? I could go black legion Khorne warp talons and use the mercilous fighter strategem to give the entire unit +1 attack (unit of 10 warp talons, good chance I will outnumber the stuff I charge). Or WE warp talons for the same effect rather than worrying about having to roll a 5+ for DTTFE. And they get DTTFE as well. just less additional attacks. the way I see it, a gauranteed +1 attack is probably more reliable anyway. Oh, by the way, CSMDP cannot deep strike in. Only chaos DP can use that strategem to deep strike in. So, if you want the DP to accompany the warp talons, you really do need to ally in daemons and use a daemon DP and that daemon strategem.
I got 10 warptalons I have hardly ever used. So, yes, I would love to try this too. This chaos release has been great! So many new strategies, and every unit looks to be interesting and can be viable.
Is there any way to "buy" additional Warlord Traits across legions? I really want to be able to give some casting buffs to a Sorcerer for Warp Time in my Flawless Host, while also having Confidence for the Prince.
So, the big Thunderhammer blob has, with Kharne, Exalted Champ, VotLW, and Presience...
22 Thunderhammer Attacks
176/9 hits, of which 88/27 give extra attacks from DttFE, for 704/243 extra hits. Total of 5,456/243 hits.
43,648/2,187 wounds
218,240/13,122 unsaved, reduces to 109,120/13,122
327,360/13,122 damage, reduces to 54,560/2,187
Or...
24.95 damage
So, with EVERY SINGLE BUFF in play... They'll barely kill a Questoris, and won't kill a Dominous. If the Questoris is Taranis, they won't even kill them.
I done goofed on the math at the point of striking it out. See my next post for proper math.
So these combi-bolters can kill hordes, but we're still looking at a 28pt model averaging 1-1.5 kills per volley vs 4-6pt models.That's solidly in "you will never make your points back" territory. They are about half as efficient at killing Guardsmen as the Chain Cannon havoc, and about the same as autocannon havocs. In melee they are not a ton better.
29 no,? Considering you always need to buy a melee weapon aswell.
Oops, you are right. That's what I get for doing this at 3am. Fixed it.
And I was also wrong about the effectiveness of firing both combiplas profiles as compared to the combi-bolter. Here's the numbers on that:
So the combi-bolter IS just flat at better vs hordes at 24". But it's still not likely to make its points back killing those.
So these combi-bolters can kill hordes, but we're still looking at a 28pt model averaging 1-1.5 kills per volley vs 4-6pt models.That's solidly in "you will never make your points back" territory. They are about half as efficient at killing Guardsmen as the Chain Cannon havoc, and about the same as autocannon havocs. In melee they are not a ton better.
29 no,? Considering you always need to buy a melee weapon aswell.
Oops, you are right. That's what I get for doing this at 3am. Fixed it.
And I was also wrong about the effectiveness of firing both combiplas profiles as compared to the combi-bolter. Here's the numbers on that:
So the combi-bolter IS just flat at better vs hordes at 24". But it's still not likely to make its points back killing those.
Frankly nothing unexpected, still we got the closest to playable Terminators now i guess?
Also could you run for me through the numbers for a reaper autocannon for terminators? Are they worth it?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote: I got 10 warptalons I have hardly ever used. So, yes, I would love to try this too. This chaos release has been great! So many new strategies, and every unit looks to be interesting and can be viable.
Raptoralhost and either red corsairs or brass beasts (however they are named, btw in the whole book there is no picture of them )
JNAProductions wrote: So, the big Thunderhammer blob has, with Kharne, Exalted Champ, VotLW, and Presience...
22 Thunderhammer Attacks
176/9 hits, of which 88/27 give extra attacks from DttFE, for 704/243 extra hits. Total of 5,456/243 hits.
43,648/2,187 wounds
218,240/13,122 unsaved, reduces to 109,120/13,122
327,360/13,122 damage, reduces to 54,560/2,187
Or...
24.95 damage
So, with EVERY SINGLE BUFF in play... They'll barely kill a Questoris, and won't kill a Dominous. If the Questoris is Taranis, they won't even kill them.
Ok, firstly, 2 attacks assumes only 7 thunderhammer chosen. (I kept one with nothing to make it a cheaper abalative wound). If you are bringing Kharn and exalted champ, then you can have 8 chosen with hammers. Since we are talking Kharn here, means WE. So, if we want to, we can have 8 hammers which would give us (7X3+4) = 25 thunder hammer attacks. I am pretty sure 3 more hammer attacks should push us into Dominus territory.
Also, erm, I would like to double check your calculation. You said 43648/2187 wounds. That means 19.95 wounds. I will round it down and say 19 wounds. The knights only get a 6+ save in close combat because hammers are AP-3 and they get no invul save in melee. so, so, with a 6+ save , say they save 3 wounds out of those 19. I will be generous and let them save 4 wounds. That leaves (19-4) = 15 wounds on a knight. Each hammer deals 3 damage flat. So, your 15 wounds will translate to 15x3 = 45 damage. That is more than enough to smash a knight . Even a knight with 6+ FNP will die ... so, I am don't see how you get 25 wounds at the end...
Hey, 50 damage looks like overkill. lol We can reduce the number of thunder hammers to lower the cost if we want to. lol. Maybe swop them for other stuff.
I just did a test for Abby. I don't think Abby will reliably kill a knight in one turn. But he would probably heavily hurt it. I haven't run the numbers, but its possible that WE can do this without needing prescience. Just have Kharn and exalted champ and VOTLW, which they tend to run with anyway. ok, heck lets do this:
22 hammer attacks = 11 hits + 5.86 hits (due to Kharn reroll) = 16.86 hits.
16.86 hits becomes 11.24 wounds + 3.74 (due to exalted champ reroll) = 14.99 wounds. (lets just take it as 15).
15 wounds, lets be generous and let the knight save 3, so left 12, which will each do 3 damage. So, yup, 36 damage goes through and smashes the knights to bits.
Cool, World Eaters can do this with just Kharn, and exalted lending their aura, and VOTLW. Don't even need prescience from a sorceror.
(I also just realised chosen come with bolters standard, so on their way to smashing a knight to bits, they can unleash a whole bunch of bolter shots before that too. Just don't bother shooting the knight, let the hammers deal with it!)
By the way, the new Abby has a huge base. Its like 65 mm in diameter or around 2.5 inches. This means that if you were to disembark him from a LR, you disembark up to 3 inch, his base diameter then stretches him out another 2.5 inches, and then he moves 6 inches. That means that he has a reach of 11.5 inches away from his LR before he even rolls his 2d6 charge... (average 7 inch). So, he has an average reach out from his LR of 18.5 inches. That's pretty far...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Is there any way to "buy" additional Warlord Traits across legions? I really want to be able to give some casting buffs to a Sorcerer for Warp Time in my Flawless Host, while also having Confidence for the Prince.
You can use field commander strategem to make a hero in your specialist detachment have that specialist warlord trait. But its specific to that specialist detachment. So, for example, host raptorial affects all jump pack dudes in a detachment. So, you can then use field commander to make a jump pack sorceror in that detachment have warlord trait, but it has to be the host raptorial warlord trait (the one that gives you +2 charge).
Only black legion can give additional warlord traits to one DA and one sorceror using the strategem "council of traitors". But if I am not wrong, the DA and Sorceror should be within black legion.
.
Frankly nothing unexpected, still we got the closest to playable Terminators now i guess?
Also could you run for me through the numbers for a reaper autocannon for terminators? Are they worth it?
Here you go!
The big problem with the Reaper of course is that it takes a penalty to move and shoot, so I've included two versions of it. It looks like it actually holds up pretty well.
When moving, it's at about the same efficiency as a combi-bolter vs infantry, and more vs higher toughness models. Stationary it overtakes it by a decent amount. And it beats the single shot overcharge plasma vs hordes of course, even in double tap range. It'd benefit a lot from full rerolls to hit. And the extra range is nice.
I'm not sure if its really worth using overall though. Its more expensive than the combi-bolter, and you don't gain much extra per point for that due to the movement penalty. If Terminators returned to being able to ignore that, it'd be a solid take in squads except for close range combi-plasma. And even a single plasma shot is beating it vs tougher models and especially multi-wound models.
I guess if I was doing a mixed squad I might do like 2 combi-bolters, 1 reaper, and 2 combi-plasma. But I'm not convinced that we're not just better off doing all plasma to benefit more from shoot twice strat. I guess it depends on if you're also running Oblits which are gonna use that up.
Frankly nothing unexpected, still we got the closest to playable Terminators now i guess?
Also could you run for me through the numbers for a reaper autocannon for terminators? Are they worth it?
Here you go!
The big problem with the Reaper of course is that it takes a penalty to move and shoot, so I've included two versions of it. It looks like it actually holds up pretty well.
When moving, it's at about the same efficiency as a combi-bolter vs infantry, and more vs higher toughness models. Stationary it overtakes it by a decent amount. And it beats the single shot overcharge plasma vs hordes of course, even in double tap range. It'd benefit a lot from full rerolls to hit. And the extra range is nice.
I'm not sure if its really worth using overall though. Its more expensive than the combi-bolter, and you don't gain much extra per point for that due to the movement penalty. If Terminators returned to being able to ignore that, it'd be a solid take in squads except for close range combi-plasma. And even a single plasma shot is beating it vs tougher models and especially multi-wound models.
I guess if I was doing a mixed squad I might do like 2 combi-bolters, 1 reaper, and 2 combi-plasma. But I'm not convinced that we're not just better off doing all plasma to benefit more from shoot twice strat. I guess it depends on if you're also running Oblits which are gonna use that up.
Honestly all Plasma and a Reaper wouldn't be too bad.
Frankly nothing unexpected, still we got the closest to playable Terminators now i guess?
Also could you run for me through the numbers for a reaper autocannon for terminators? Are they worth it?
Here you go!
The big problem with the Reaper of course is that it takes a penalty to move and shoot, so I've included two versions of it. It looks like it actually holds up pretty well.
When moving, it's at about the same efficiency as a combi-bolter vs infantry, and more vs higher toughness models. Stationary it overtakes it by a decent amount. And it beats the single shot overcharge plasma vs hordes of course, even in double tap range. It'd benefit a lot from full rerolls to hit. And the extra range is nice.
I'm not sure if its really worth using overall though. Its more expensive than the combi-bolter, and you don't gain much extra per point for that due to the movement penalty. If Terminators returned to being able to ignore that, it'd be a solid take in squads except for close range combi-plasma. And even a single plasma shot is beating it vs tougher models and especially multi-wound models.
I guess if I was doing a mixed squad I might do like 2 combi-bolters, 1 reaper, and 2 combi-plasma. But I'm not convinced that we're not just better off doing all plasma to benefit more from shoot twice strat. I guess it depends on if you're also running Oblits which are gonna use that up.
would it be feasible to have chart comparing melee options with and without the bringers of despair bonus?
In some way it doubles their damage after all. Not quite but the extra morale damage would go through all saves. It sounds ok on paper but I'm curious about the numbers.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Is there any way to "buy" additional Warlord Traits across legions? I really want to be able to give some casting buffs to a Sorcerer for Warp Time in my Flawless Host, while also having Confidence for the Prince.
Kind of, and not in a way that will help you. You can pay 1CP to give a Specialist Detachment their Warlord Trait, which doesn’t allow the combination you want.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Is there any way to "buy" additional Warlord Traits across legions? I really want to be able to give some casting buffs to a Sorcerer for Warp Time in my Flawless Host, while also having Confidence for the Prince.
Kind of, and not in a way that will help you. You can pay 1CP to give a Specialist Detachment their Warlord Trait, which doesn’t allow the combination you want.
council of traitors would do this, but that's not applicable to the flawless host as I understand.
Not Online!!! wrote: Couldn't there technically be made a point for 10 Al nurgle terminators with Reapers, combiplas and Chainaxes, supported by a sorcerer, DA?
I mean that would probably be as skew as it gets and melee would be an issue but hilariously durable.
Blightlords would also be durable, at all ranges with no moving parts, probably costing less than the above without relying on proximity to unteleportable DA, and would get to double tap with the plasma at 18” and also chop up most things that try to melee them
It’s not for nothing they were one of the few (only?) Terminator units that were pretty competitive before the price cuts and bolster buffs
Not Online!!! wrote: Couldn't there technically be made a point for 10 Al nurgle terminators with Reapers, combiplas and Chainaxes, supported by a sorcerer, DA?
I mean that would probably be as skew as it gets and melee would be an issue but hilariously durable.
Blightlords would also be durable, at all ranges with no moving parts, probably costing less than the above without relying on proximity to unteleportable DA, and would get to double tap with the plasma at 18” and also chop up most things that try to melee them
It’s not for nothing they were one of the few (only?) Terminator units that were pretty competitive before the price cuts and bolster buffs
Ah true but -3 to hit still is fairly memeable.
Then again you could just let the sorcerer out, sacrificing 1 -1 but in turn mark the squad Slaanesh for double shooting.
I think the trick with all this new stuff is going to be finding the perfect balance between taking what we need to win, taking what we want to play with, and figuring out what units can cover both areas well.
Myself its going to be large squads of black legion marines, a red corsair detachment, and what mix of deamon engines / deamon support hq's we can fit into 2000 pts which seems like its going to be pretty hard to pull off. As much as i love the new endless waves of chaos marines with red corsairs i dont see that becoming a real thing in my lists simply because i like my large 20 man black legion blob with abby, do not underestimate 20 bolters in rapid fire rerolling all hits, with vets of the long war and double shooting. Is it the premier option for all those cp? Hell no. But it can catch your opponent off guard when these guys suddenly fire 80 shots and wipe the chaff from the field in front of them
Yeah I'm not actually feeling him for most lists. 100 points for -1 to hit isn't that amazing. Like, it's good in the right lists, but very much requires the right lists. Without some ability to change out his prayers, I think he's situation.
I like the idea of the dark apostle putting out a 5++ to protect predators and rhinos t1. Also regular marines (or anything without an invunerable honestly like just cultists) can be very good with a 5++ from him then a sorcerer popping weaver to boost it to a 4++ save squad wide. Bikers that don't need to move fast and can work as a mobile, tough, gun line? Yeah, thats cool.
Azuza001 wrote: I think the trick with all this new stuff is going to be finding the perfect balance between taking what we need to win, taking what we want to play with, and figuring out what units can cover both areas well.
Myself its going to be large squads of black legion marines, a red corsair detachment, and what mix of deamon engines / deamon support hq's we can fit into 2000 pts which seems like its going to be pretty hard to pull off. As much as i love the new endless waves of chaos marines with red corsairs i dont see that becoming a real thing in my lists simply because i like my large 20 man black legion blob with abby, do not underestimate 20 bolters in rapid fire rerolling all hits, with vets of the long war and double shooting. Is it the premier option for all those cp? Hell no. But it can catch your opponent off guard when these guys suddenly fire 80 shots and wipe the chaff from the field in front of them
I need to ask about your experience, since you tried him out like that.
In your experience, did Abby do enough footslogging up? Did you move advance him first turn, maybe even second ?
Also, you did the 20 man CSM but without any other weapons on them. So that 20 man blob was underestimated? Wouldn't they have been even more effective at clearing screens if you equipped that blob with 2 chain cannons (since you have Abby there to give them rerolls to hit anyways)? You didn't even give the champ a combi bolter. Not enough points? Or you really wanted the 20 man blob to look harmless.
I noticed your list put 2 plasma on the other two squads instead. Why? And was it a subtle way to try and make the other two squads a bigger target than your 20 man blob? Did it work? Did you overcharge them often, since you had Abby around? Were they targeted?
I actually really really love your list. It has a LOS in it, and Abby in it as well. And its a total black legion list too. (which mine is painted is as well). How cool is that!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote: I like the idea of the dark apostle putting out a 5++ to protect predators and rhinos t1. Also regular marines (or anything without an invunerable honestly like just cultists) can be very good with a 5++ from him then a sorcerer popping weaver to boost it to a 4++ save squad wide. Bikers that don't need to move fast and can work as a mobile, tough, gun line? Yeah, thats cool.
Hmmm, I think only models within the 6 inches of the DA's aura would get the 5++ based on how I read that prayer. Its still doable, but it kinda restricts how much you can cram around him because it says models, not units. lol Why Rhinos and predators? Would you expect to move your predators in tight proximity to him? Same for any squad or unit that you want to benefit from his 5++ aura.
Have a question here to shooting as well. Say we have a squad of 10 CSM, but only 2 models are in this priest's 5++ bubble. Opponent shoots at this squad with a plasma gun. Can we opt to take the plasma hits on the 2 models in the squad which have the 5++ ?
Azuza001 wrote: I think the trick with all this new stuff is going to be finding the perfect balance between taking what we need to win, taking what we want to play with, and figuring out what units can cover both areas well.
Myself its going to be large squads of black legion marines, a red corsair detachment, and what mix of deamon engines / deamon support hq's we can fit into 2000 pts which seems like its going to be pretty hard to pull off. As much as i love the new endless waves of chaos marines with red corsairs i dont see that becoming a real thing in my lists simply because i like my large 20 man black legion blob with abby, do not underestimate 20 bolters in rapid fire rerolling all hits, with vets of the long war and double shooting. Is it the premier option for all those cp? Hell no. But it can catch your opponent off guard when these guys suddenly fire 80 shots and wipe the chaff from the field in front of them
I need to ask about your experience, since you tried him out like that.
In your experience, did Abby do enough footslogging up? Did you move advance him first turn, maybe even second ?
Also, you did the 20 man CSM but without any other weapons on them. So that 20 man blob was underestimated? Wouldn't they have been even more effective at clearing screens if you equipped that blob with 2 chain cannons (since you have Abby there to give them rerolls to hit anyways)? You didn't even give the champ a combi bolter. Not enough points? Or you really wanted the 20 man blob to look harmless.
I noticed your list put 2 plasma on the other two squads instead. Why? And was it a subtle way to try and make the other two squads a bigger target than your 20 man blob? Did it work? Did you overcharge them often, since you had Abby around? Were they targeted?
I actually really really love your list. It has a LOS in it, and Abby in it as well. And its a total black legion list too. (which mine is painted is as well). How cool is that!
Belive it or not things worked really well on my list. The thought process was i really wanted the 20 guys to look harmless but also look like a pain in the ass to deal with so people would ignore them. I cast delightful agonies onto them so they had the 5+++ on top of the 3+. Turn 1 everyone advanced, both 10 man, the 20 man blob, the term sorc and abby. The goal was to get into that sweet spot 24" range t1 as quick as possible. If needed i could warp time them as well giving them an average of 20" movement t1. I made sure to keep them within 12" for the fearless bubble but didnt care about the rerolls.
This led to my opponents focusing on the 2 squads of plasma all my games. Most games they killed 1 off and would bring the other down to 3 or 4 guys. Just as planned! So t2 i had a 20 man bolter team completely unharmed sitting there within 24" of the chaff. Abby and the others go to one flank side (but still stay within 12") to work with the defilers keeping them with rerolls and the bolter marines unload.
1cp for let the galaxy burn (full rerolls, yes please), 1cp for vets of the long war, and 2cp for endless canophy. That was 80 shots hitting on 3's, full rerolls, wounding most things on 4's or 3's (t6 you say? How cute), and not giving any crap about invulnerable saves because ap0. They wiped things dead. By the time my opponents realized their mistakes it was too late. Continue to focus on the lord of skulls rampaging with a dark apostle? Or try and wittle the 20 man blob of bolter fire thats able to put out so much pain? Also abby is there so if they try and move in for cc he would also move to cut them off with any defilers left (normally 1 died by this point, but they were a distraction at best in my games).
I love infantry, and i find in this edition shooting is more effective than cc (though a cc scalpel can do more damage than a sledge hammer approach) as well as mobility wins games.
I do plan on putting together some 5 man red corsair teams with the gattling cannons to go with my black legion. I think they will be a very good value for their cost. I would love to do 2 5 man and a 20 man red corsair to go with my two 10 man / one 20 man black legion and 30 cultists. So many bodies.... hide deamon princes and abby behind all that and you have one scarry bolter line that has cc that will jump out t2/3 to crush anything the bolters cant.
Now keep in mind I am just a local gamer with a local meta to deal with. I dont go to lvo or anything like that. But its working very good here so far. If the 5++ invulnerable save apostle prayer wasnt models within 6" of him i would look at that, but at this point its not worth trying to get a large blob in there. But if you use the -1 to hit on the cultists, put the 5+++ on the squad of black legion, and then let the red corsairs get shot because they will just come back.... awesome...
Edit
I think you should be able to get at least 2 predators wholy within 6" of him. Preds have an issue of getting shot off the table before they can do anything in my meta. But a 2+/5++ pred squad... thats probably not going anywhere t1 before you get a chance to use them.
Cool, thanks for sharing your experiences and your thinking!
I would consider using the Noctilith Crown if I really wanted to buff stuff like Predator tanks. Because these don't usually move much anyway. The Noctilith crown is huge so you can spread out more. You could probably easily fit 2 to 3 shooty hellbrutes, 3 predator tanks all around the Crown. And the crown is the same cost as a DAlol. Its an impressive fortification too.
Ok, I don't understand this. I was flipping the new codex idly and I noticed that Alpha legions operatives is back to its original form. Where they go into concealment before the 1st battle round starts and are then revealed 9 inches away from the enemy. At this point, they have so many FAQ about coming in within 9 inches away from opponent on the first turn I really don't even know what is what anymore. I was under the impression that forward operatives is now a scout move forward per the latest FAQ. So, is it still a scout move forward, or is it what I am reading in the new codex right now again? (confused).
Model's don't need to be "wholly within" 6" of the DA to get a 5++, only "within" 6", so it's the same as with most other auras.
The new DA and how he works/picks his prayers is so similar to a Sorcerer and psychic powers (except his powers can't get denied, and he can't deny in turn) and that's how I'll view him.
A good pick in most lists, but far from an auto-include.
Giving -1 to get hit on a unit seems amazing, but you're also paying 100 pts for the privilege. It might not always be worth it.
Yeah, but if you have a squad with only one or two models out of ten which are within 6 inches of the DA. Then what happens when only 2 models in your army have the 5++ ? Can you "choose" to take wounds on those two with the 5++ instead of others?
On forward operatives. They took a cool strategem and changed it so much with faq, and then now they put in the same words again as the original, until I honestly don't know how it should be played anymore. And this is a pity because if you are playing Alpha legion, its your legion specific strategem. Nobody likes to say their legion specific strategem has been overriden by so many faqs and rules they fear to even play it anymore.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Yeah, but if you have a squad with only one or two models out of ten which are within 6 inches of the DA. Then what happens when only 2 models in your army have the 5++ ? Can you "choose" to take wounds on those two with the 5++ instead of others?
The squad is considered to be "within" 6", so the entire squad would have a 5++.
If you remove those 2 who are within 6" as casualties however, the remaining squadmembers will loose the 5++ due to no longer being within 6".
Eldenfirefly wrote: Yeah, but if you have a squad with only one or two models out of ten which are within 6 inches of the DA. Then what happens when only 2 models in your army have the 5++ ? Can you "choose" to take wounds on those two with the 5++ instead of others?
The squad is considered to be "within" 6", so the entire squad would have a 5++.
If you remove those 2 who are within 6" as casualties however, the remaining squadmembers will loose the 5++ due to no longer being within 6".
So don't do that.
Huh, is that the way it works? I think the model having a 5++ (as per the prayer wording) is very different from the whole unit getting a 5++ just because one of its models happens to be within 6 inches of the Priest. If they meant for it to be unit, they would have used the word unit, rather than model.
Eldenfirefly wrote: On forward operatives. They took a cool strategem and changed it so much with faq, and then now they put in the same words again as the original, until I honestly don't know how it should be played anymore. And this is a pity because if you are playing Alpha legion, its your legion specific strategem. Nobody likes to say their legion specific strategem has been overriden by so many faqs and rules they fear to even play it anymore.
Agreed. And worse they removed the cool factor for units that needed it to be internally competitive. Now it's mostly for screens and assaults. If your opponent doesn't counter it with something like scouts.. pretty lame.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Yeah, but if you have a squad with only one or two models out of ten which are within 6 inches of the DA. Then what happens when only 2 models in your army have the 5++ ? Can you "choose" to take wounds on those two with the 5++ instead of others?
The squad is considered to be "within" 6", so the entire squad would have a 5++.
If you remove those 2 who are within 6" as casualties however, the remaining squadmembers will loose the 5++ due to no longer being within 6".
So don't do that.
Huh, is that the way it works? I think the model having a 5++ (as per the prayer wording) is very different from the whole unit getting a 5++ just because one of its models happens to be within 6 inches of the Priest. If they meant for it to be unit, they would have used the word unit, rather than model.
Huh, you're right.
I'm so used to 8th Ed. auras using "units within" that I overlooked that it actually says "models within".
Strange, especially given how the +1 to hit and +1 to wound-prayers work (they affect units within, not models).
Typo or brainfart from GW? Neither would surprise me at this stage.
I guess the correct way to play it currently is that if you want to use the 5++ on a unit that's partially within, every failed IV would result in a dead model from those within 6", since they have different saves than the others.
It's basically the same as using units with mixed saves, i.e. Space Marine Veterans where a handful have Stormshields. If you use the 3++ and fail, then obviously a Stormshield dies and not a non-stormshield.
Suddenly that prayer got alot less interesting.
It's still decent for handing out 5++ to stuff like non-daemonic Vehicles (Helbrutes, Rhinos, Land Raiders, Predators and Vindicators), but it's appeal in a infantry-focused list more or less vanished.
Actually, for powerful auras, they have done this before. I believe that Dark Angels Azreal also provides a 4++ invul bubble, and its also worded similar to this. The protection is based on models within that bubble, not units.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Cool, thanks for sharing your experiences and your thinking!
I would consider using the Noctilith Crown if I really wanted to buff stuff like Predator tanks. Because these don't usually move much anyway. The Noctilith crown is huge so you can spread out more. You could probably easily fit 2 to 3 shooty hellbrutes, 3 predator tanks all around the Crown. And the crown is the same cost as a DAlol. Its an impressive fortification too.
Ok, I don't understand this. I was flipping the new codex idly and I noticed that Alpha legions operatives is back to its original form. Where they go into concealment before the 1st battle round starts and are then revealed 9 inches away from the enemy. At this point, they have so many FAQ about coming in within 9 inches away from opponent on the first turn I really don't even know what is what anymore. I was under the impression that forward operatives is now a scout move forward per the latest FAQ. So, is it still a scout move forward, or is it what I am reading in the new codex right now again? (confused).
No need to be confused.
The alpha stratagem is NOT "back to its original form" as it was, in fact, never changed.
It only changed in BETA RULES, as part of the strategic reserve change.
When and if stratagic reserves beta rules turn official (possibly next week as there is an FAQ coming)-then the alpha stratagem may (or may not) change to the scout move version.
Azuza001 wrote: But that squad of 3+/5++/5+++ -1 to hit can be black legion....
I am assuming possessed w/ mark of slaanesh, a sorcerer casting delightful agonies, and an apostle praying for -1 to hit? And abby gives them reroll failed hits.
But, when I’ve got Huron and run them as Red Corsairs, I get re-roll 1’s and an additional 4CP and relic. Plus, I can then bring the squad back after it gets targeted.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hey, 50 damage looks like overkill. lol We can reduce the number of thunder hammers to lower the cost if we want to. lol. Maybe swop them for other stuff.
I just did a test for Abby. I don't think Abby will reliably kill a knight in one turn. But he would probably heavily hurt it. I haven't run the numbers, but its possible that WE can do this without needing prescience. Just have Kharn and exalted champ and VOTLW, which they tend to run with anyway. ok, heck lets do this:
22 hammer attacks = 11 hits + 5.86 hits (due to Kharn reroll) = 16.86 hits.
16.86 hits becomes 11.24 wounds + 3.74 (due to exalted champ reroll) = 14.99 wounds. (lets just take it as 15).
15 wounds, lets be generous and let the knight save 3, so left 12, which will each do 3 damage. So, yup, 36 damage goes through and smashes the knights to bits.
Cool, World Eaters can do this with just Kharn, and exalted lending their aura, and VOTLW. Don't even need prescience from a sorceror.
(I also just realised chosen come with bolters standard, so on their way to smashing a knight to bits, they can unleash a whole bunch of bolter shots before that too. Just don't bother shooting the knight, let the hammers deal with it!)
By the way, the new Abby has a huge base. Its like 65 mm in diameter or around 2.5 inches. This means that if you were to disembark him from a LR, you disembark up to 3 inch, his base diameter then stretches him out another 2.5 inches, and then he moves 6 inches. That means that he has a reach of 11.5 inches away from his LR before he even rolls his 2d6 charge... (average 7 inch). So, he has an average reach out from his LR of 18.5 inches. That's pretty far...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Is there any way to "buy" additional Warlord Traits across legions? I really want to be able to give some casting buffs to a Sorcerer for Warp Time in my Flawless Host, while also having Confidence for the Prince.
You can use field commander strategem to make a hero in your specialist detachment have that specialist warlord trait. But its specific to that specialist detachment. So, for example, host raptorial affects all jump pack dudes in a detachment. So, you can then use field commander to make a jump pack sorceror in that detachment have warlord trait, but it has to be the host raptorial warlord trait (the one that gives you +2 charge).
Only black legion can give additional warlord traits to one DA and one sorceror using the strategem "council of traitors". But if I am not wrong, the DA and Sorceror should be within black legion.
.
Don't you need to place a model wholly within 3" when disembarking from a transport? Or am I horribly mistaken about that? Would be pretty good if he got a free 2.5" extra movement out if that, might give my Land Raider a new purpose because it's been collecting dust for far too long
What’s really making me doubt spending 100pts on a DA that can’t even use my WB Relic any more, nor fulfil his previous niche of riding with Berzerkers and giving them an aura buff as he disembarks (and, because it’s 8ed, them leaving a channel for him to charge through, and also a conga line in case he trips over his shoelaces on his charge), is the fact that he only gets one special prayer. And can’t even Familiar in a different one. He effectively gets mono-tasked with no versatility beyond choosing one specific buff or his old one. And you can forget his old front line brawling buff, because that’s just asking for pileins and pick-a-target spells to kill or separate his cheering section.
In the Space Wolves Index, Rune Priests get one psychic power and can cast one psychic power. Until the Codex came out, the only SW psyker I ever saw was Njal, because he knew and could cast more than one spell. I think a lot of the excitement over DA’s is new toy syndrome, and would not be surprised if Chaplains get rewritten to function like a DA but with far more versatility that will leave ours feeling distinctly underwhelming.
Don’t get me wrong, I like DA’s. I wanna use them. A backline-to-midfield role of praying that a single plane or horde or metal box doesn’t get shot really isn’t feeling appealing to me, whether or not it is efficient or reliable by current standards. The fact that only a third or so of the new prayers are even being discussed, for pretty restrictive purposes, feels sad. I can see myself using one to shroud a Possessed deathstar then giving them rerolls to hit when they make contact. I just know that, when he gets separated from his two handlers and then I have to consider spending my last CP rerolling a 2 to pray with a 33% chance of failing again, it’s going to feel like my old reliable zealot has been hamstrung by a load of clumsy moving parts - and paid 34pts for it. And that’s if, having been obliged to start the game on the board and patiently walk towards the enemy, he doesn’t get Vindicare’d on the first turn.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hey, 50 damage looks like overkill. lol We can reduce the number of thunder hammers to lower the cost if we want to. lol. Maybe swop them for other stuff.
I just did a test for Abby. I don't think Abby will reliably kill a knight in one turn. But he would probably heavily hurt it. I haven't run the numbers, but its possible that WE can do this without needing prescience. Just have Kharn and exalted champ and VOTLW, which they tend to run with anyway. ok, heck lets do this:
22 hammer attacks = 11 hits + 5.86 hits (due to Kharn reroll) = 16.86 hits.
16.86 hits becomes 11.24 wounds + 3.74 (due to exalted champ reroll) = 14.99 wounds. (lets just take it as 15).
15 wounds, lets be generous and let the knight save 3, so left 12, which will each do 3 damage. So, yup, 36 damage goes through and smashes the knights to bits.
Cool, World Eaters can do this with just Kharn, and exalted lending their aura, and VOTLW. Don't even need prescience from a sorceror.
Not that I want to rain on this particular parade, but how does the whole thing work out if half of the Chosen die to overwatch (I'm assuming they'll be the first unit to charge because re-roll + embarassment of characters dying to overwatch)? Doesn't a Castellan put out an ungodly amount of shots? Even twin heavy flamers could spoil your day if you're unlucky...
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hey, 50 damage looks like overkill. lol We can reduce the number of thunder hammers to lower the cost if we want to. lol. Maybe swop them for other stuff.
I just did a test for Abby. I don't think Abby will reliably kill a knight in one turn. But he would probably heavily hurt it. I haven't run the numbers, but its possible that WE can do this without needing prescience. Just have Kharn and exalted champ and VOTLW, which they tend to run with anyway. ok, heck lets do this:
22 hammer attacks = 11 hits + 5.86 hits (due to Kharn reroll) = 16.86 hits.
16.86 hits becomes 11.24 wounds + 3.74 (due to exalted champ reroll) = 14.99 wounds. (lets just take it as 15).
15 wounds, lets be generous and let the knight save 3, so left 12, which will each do 3 damage. So, yup, 36 damage goes through and smashes the knights to bits.
Cool, World Eaters can do this with just Kharn, and exalted lending their aura, and VOTLW. Don't even need prescience from a sorceror.
Not that I want to rain on this particular parade, but how does the whole thing work out if half of the Chosen die to overwatch (I'm assuming they'll be the first unit to charge because re-roll + embarassment of characters dying to overwatch)? Doesn't a Castellan put out an ungodly amount of shots? Even twin heavy flamers could spoil your day if you're unlucky...
If only we had like, 3 bikers for 70 points or something...
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hey, 50 damage looks like overkill. lol We can reduce the number of thunder hammers to lower the cost if we want to. lol. Maybe swop them for other stuff.
I just did a test for Abby. I don't think Abby will reliably kill a knight in one turn. But he would probably heavily hurt it. I haven't run the numbers, but its possible that WE can do this without needing prescience. Just have Kharn and exalted champ and VOTLW, which they tend to run with anyway. ok, heck lets do this:
22 hammer attacks = 11 hits + 5.86 hits (due to Kharn reroll) = 16.86 hits.
16.86 hits becomes 11.24 wounds + 3.74 (due to exalted champ reroll) = 14.99 wounds. (lets just take it as 15).
15 wounds, lets be generous and let the knight save 3, so left 12, which will each do 3 damage. So, yup, 36 damage goes through and smashes the knights to bits.
Cool, World Eaters can do this with just Kharn, and exalted lending their aura, and VOTLW. Don't even need prescience from a sorceror.
Not that I want to rain on this particular parade, but how does the whole thing work out if half of the Chosen die to overwatch (I'm assuming they'll be the first unit to charge because re-roll + embarassment of characters dying to overwatch)? Doesn't a Castellan put out an ungodly amount of shots? Even twin heavy flamers could spoil your day if you're unlucky...
If only we had like, 3 bikers for 70 points or something...
Touché! The point still remains that we're looking at the whole scenario in a bit of a vacuum. All that aside, I like the idea a lot. But I'm not going to find the time to model 7 Chosen with thunder hammers in the near future.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Am I reading it right that you get the specialist detachment relic for every specialist detachment in addition to the Chaos Codex artefact entirely for free, without having to use the Gifts of Chaos strat? Edit: No. I am reading that wrong. Nothing to see here, folks.
@Pandabear, It doesn't say "wholly". That word is not there. So, I assume as long as a part of your base is within 3 inches, then that's fine? Someone correct me if I am wrong. Ordinarily, it wouldn't make much of a difference because infantry bases aren't very big anyway. But Abaddon has a huge base, so it does make a difference. In any case, a LR is hideously expensive. So, if Abaddon gets some clear reach benefits from disembarking from it, I wouldn't mind. That LR is nearly 300 points. Using it as a glorified transport simply because Abby cannot ride in a Rhino is still a bit much... (Of course, after Abby disembarks, it can then hang around and start shooting stuff up... but until then)... Honestly, if not for it being so much more resilient than a Rhino, and the fact that Abby cannot ride in one, I would never consider the LR... lol
And on the point about the Chosen facing overcharge. Yup, overcharge from a Castellan would be dangerous. So, charge it with the Rhino they just conveniently disembarked from, which can move 12 inches and charge the Castellan bravely, absorbing any overwatch. And the Chosen can follow in after that.
And on the point about the Chosen facing overcharge. Yup, overcharge from a Castellan would be dangerous. So, charge it with the Rhino they just conveniently disembarked from, which can move 12 inches and charge the Castellan bravely, absorbing any overwatch. And the Chosen can follow in after that.
Nice! And shows me that I shouldn't get involved in these discussions when I've only slept four hours the night before.
*rubs eyes sleepily* "Wha? Where did that Rhino come from all of a sudden??"
Azuza001 wrote: I like the idea of the dark apostle putting out a 5++ to protect predators and rhinos t1. Also regular marines (or anything without an invunerable honestly like just cultists) can be very good with a 5++ from him then a sorcerer popping weaver to boost it to a 4++ save squad wide. Bikers that don't need to move fast and can work as a mobile, tough, gun line? Yeah, thats cool.
The noctolith crown is the exact same price (less factoring disciples) and does exactly that already. You need a spare detachment, but that generally is not that big a deal for us.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Abby having a new larger base is such a low key buff. It not only makes his threat range for assault bigger in all directions, but it also extends his aura.
I understand the crown is the same cost. But its also immobile. It cant move or do anything else. Its also targetable, which could come up. Finally its also not an hq as you mentioned its a fortification. I find i use all 3 detachments in my list currently (2 csm and 1 deamon) so i dont have a 4th one lying around.
I am not saying you couldnt use the crown, its more reliable for sure for the same cost. But once again its a new model, some people dont have it yet but already have a dark apostle. So there is that to consider as well.
Azuza001 wrote: I understand the crown is the same cost. But its also immobile. It cant move or do anything else. Its also targetable, which could come up. Finally its also not an hq as you mentioned its a fortification. I find i use all 3 detachments in my list currently (2 csm and 1 deamon) so i dont have a 4th one lying around.
I am not saying you couldnt use the crown, its more reliable for sure for the same cost. But once again its a new model, some people dont have it yet but already have a dark apostle. So there is that to consider as well.
It is a good Psyker annoyance though, which the DA isn't, that said, there is also the option to get a R&H coven which is even better at denying Psy.
Sure I wasn't trying to convince you to use it, just pointing out that it's another tool for the same task.
It also has a much larger footprint, I think a single apostle will struggle to maintain the buff over much stuff since it's fully within, but at least he is mobile.
There is also the deredeo with hellfire veil. Ultimately it depends on your access to the models and what style list your using.
BTW I wouldn't consider the crown being target-able a disadvantage, if they want to try to kill it I'd be happy.
Currently theory-crafting. Thoughts on using a Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch & Master of Possessions to ride along with Tzeentch-aligned Daemon Engines?
Sorcerer on Disc, MoP, Lord Discordant, and Defiler (could also use a Maulerfiend). Sorcerer gets Warptime and Weaver of Fates, MoP gets Cursed Earth and Infernal Power/Sacrifice (second power is not so important).
From being on a Disc, the Sorcerer gains the DAEMON keyword (and is therefore affected by the MoP's spells), a 12" move to keep up with Daemon Engines, and a 5++, and loses the INFANTRY keyword (relevant for Vindicares, and HERETIC ASTARTES INFANTRY stratagems, but you were never going to use VotLW on a Sorcerer, let's be honest).
Advance the MoP, move everything else up to be within 6" for Cursed Earth - the Defiler only needs to be within 3" of the Sorc, since Warptime shenanigans will take it out of the Cursed Earth aura anyway. Pop Cursed Earth for a 4++ on everything but the MoP, then Weaver of Fates the Lord Discordant (or Defiler if you like) for a 3++, then Warptime the Defiler to sling it at their faces.
Bonus points for using the Soulforged Pack detachment - this would let you advance the Defiler twice (movement phase and Warptime) for extra distance, and then pop the detachment stratagem to allow it to charge T1.
Downsides being:
- The Lord Discordant's aura isn't utilised by the Defiler until he also gets into combat, but I've started thinking of him as just another Daemon Engine as opposed to an actual HQ choice.
- This would have to take up an HQ/Heavy slot from a second detachment (Supreme Command can't take Heavy choices, other detachments can only take 2 HQ choices)
With the load-out I'm planning (MoP, minimal Sorcerer on Disc, Baleflamer on the Lord Discordant, melee Defiler with a combi-bolter too because why not) the cost only comes out at 555, which leaves plenty of space for the rest of an army. You could use a variation of this to pack a melee threat into a ranged army or double down on Daemon Engines. More Daemon engines would get more out of the MoP and Lord Discordant, help with target saturation, and provide you with the opportunities to keep Warptiming Daemon Engines to hit enemy units far and wide every turn - might even be worth running some Greater Possessed in that case.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Yeah, but if you have a squad with only one or two models out of ten which are within 6 inches of the DA. Then what happens when only 2 models in your army have the 5++ ? Can you "choose" to take wounds on those two with the 5++ instead of others?
The squad is considered to be "within" 6", so the entire squad would have a 5++.
If you remove those 2 who are within 6" as casualties however, the remaining squadmembers will loose the 5++ due to no longer being within 6".
So don't do that.
Huh, is that the way it works? I think the model having a 5++ (as per the prayer wording) is very different from the whole unit getting a 5++ just because one of its models happens to be within 6 inches of the Priest. If they meant for it to be unit, they would have used the word unit, rather than model.
Huh, you're right.
I'm so used to 8th Ed. auras using "units within" that I overlooked that it actually says "models within".
Strange, especially given how the +1 to hit and +1 to wound-prayers work (they affect units within, not models).
Typo or brainfart from GW? Neither would surprise me at this stage.
I guess the correct way to play it currently is that if you want to use the 5++ on a unit that's partially within, every failed IV would result in a dead model from those within 6", since they have different saves than the others.
It's basically the same as using units with mixed saves, i.e. Space Marine Veterans where a handful have Stormshields. If you use the 3++ and fail, then obviously a Stormshield dies and not a non-stormshield.
Suddenly that prayer got alot less interesting.
It's still decent for handing out 5++ to stuff like non-daemonic Vehicles (Helbrutes, Rhinos, Land Raiders, Predators and Vindicators), but it's appeal in a infantry-focused list more or less vanished.
that prayer works fine with small units, with large blobs isn't so efficient. Forget 100 cultists with a 5++ save, anyway also with a 5++ save with their D 5 they are pretty sensitive to battle shock, now you can play just 30, without abbadon i doubt they last long, 17 dead and whole unit melt, IG, Eldar, some marines builds can easily remove so many models in 1 single turn, regardless 5++, that stratagem can be useful with chaos marines or veichles.
Total wrote: Currently theory-crafting. Thoughts on using a Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch & Master of Possessions to ride along with Tzeentch-aligned Daemon Engines?
Sorcerer on Disc, MoP, Lord Discordant, and Defiler (could also use a Maulerfiend). ....
Bonus points for using the Soulforged Pack detachment - this would let you advance the Defiler twice (movement phase and Warptime) for extra distance, and then pop the detachment stratagem to allow it to charge T1.
Downsides being:
- The Lord Discordant's aura isn't utilised by the Defiler until he also gets into combat, but I've started thinking of him as just another Daemon Engine as opposed to an actual HQ choice.
- This would have to take up an HQ/Heavy slot from a second detachment (Supreme Command can't take Heavy choices, other detachments can only take 2 HQ choices)
To accomplish the last part of the plan (flinging the Defiler into assault after it has advanced) you'll have to Soulforge the detachment you draw the Defiler from (presumably a Battalion). And probably may as well Soulforge the Supreme Command detachment as well? -- to increase the threat range of the Lord Discordant.
edit: nope, can't have either the sorcerer or the MoP in a Soulforged detachment. So, stash the Lord Discordant in with a clutch of daemon engines for the Heavy detachment, and craft a battalion with your sorcerer on disk and your MoP as hq elements, and fill in with cultists as troops (sacrificing when necessary to nourish your daemon engines as they take wounds).
In which case, Mwuhahaha indeed. Might as well pack that second detachment with daemon engines - which of course makes it work even better (threat saturation; maximization of your buffing auras, etc.).
I am thinking a Venom Crawler would be good in a soulforged detachment too. Its guns are str 8 and assault 2d3. So, the Venomcrawler is one of the few Daemon Engines that can actually move advance and still fire all its guns. Also, its ws and bs doesn't degrade as it takes damage. Its only 10 wounds, but its the cheapest Daemon Engines as well. But Defilers are so good simply because they are so tanky for their points.
Hey, so I mostly play guard, but I've got some chaos stuff I want to expand, and I'm curious why the ritualist detachment isn't getting more love?
Black Legion with strats, buffs and daemon allies could get possessed to S8, Ad3+2 if they outnumber the enemy, MWs on 6s to wound, 3++/5+++, -2 to be hit, healing 2d3 wounds a turn.
Is it just that it's a huge point sink? Still seems like a squad of 20 could push up the midfield pretty imperviously and wipe whatever it hits
TankCmdr wrote: Hey, so I mostly play guard, but I've got some chaos stuff I want to expand, and I'm curious why the ritualist detachment isn't getting more love?
Black Legion with strats, buffs and daemon allies could get them to S8, Ad3+2 if they outnumber the enemy, MWs on 6s to wound, 3++/5+++, -2 to be hit, healing 2d3 wounds a turn.
Is it just that it's a huge point sink? Still seems like a squad of 20 could push up the midfield pretty imperviously and wipe whatever it hits
It is. This big blob of killer possessed squad supported by all the various buffs was extensively discussed quite a few pages back. And yes, its part of the ritualist detachment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
drakerocket wrote: So quick scenario: 20 strong alpha legion possessed unit, starts off the game with a nurgle tree by them. 40 wounds guarded by -1 to hit 1+ saves. Even if you lose first turn that will be hard to shift. Starting on your turn give them another -1 to be hit from a nurgle spell, -1 to be hit from dark apostate....now they are immune to 4+ shooting and 3+ shooting hits them on 6s....
So now you have what makes all of the rest of it make sense: a walking wall of nearly invincible meat. Now you can foot slog all of those support characters behind them.
I found it. Its on page 40. From there on, quite a few posts discussed this possessed concept.
TankCmdr wrote: Hey, so I mostly play guard, but I've got some chaos stuff I want to expand, and I'm curious why the ritualist detachment isn't getting more love?
Black Legion with strats, buffs and daemon allies could get them to S8, Ad3+2 if they outnumber the enemy, MWs on 6s to wound, 3++/5+++, -2 to be hit, healing 2d3 wounds a turn.
Is it just that it's a huge point sink? Still seems like a squad of 20 could push up the midfield pretty imperviously and wipe whatever it hits
It is. This big blob of killer possessed squad supported by all the various buffs was extensively discussed quite a few pages back. And yes, its part of the ritualist detachment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
drakerocket wrote: So quick scenario: 20 strong alpha legion possessed unit, starts off the game with a nurgle tree by them. 40 wounds guarded by -1 to hit 1+ saves. Even if you lose first turn that will be hard to shift. Starting on your turn give them another -1 to be hit from a nurgle spell, -1 to be hit from dark apostate....now they are immune to 4+ shooting and 3+ shooting hits them on 6s....
So now you have what makes all of the rest of it make sense: a walking wall of nearly invincible meat. Now you can foot slog all of those support characters behind them.
I found it. Its on page 40. From there on, quite a few posts discussed this possessed concept.
drakerocket wrote: So I guess now we can give a unit of possessed another +1 strength and attack from a strategem. So now they get 5 base, +1 herald, +1 strategeum, +1 g. possessed.
So like, now they are all strength 8 O.o;; I feel like all of this kind of misses the point in some ways; their issues are mobility and durability, neither of which are getting fixed.
So with all buffs they are what....reroll 1s to hit and wound, 2-4 attacks per round with a reroll (so let's say average 3.5), strength 8, ap -2, 1 damage, inflict a mortal wound on wounds of 6s. They'll also probably get either the slaanesh or the nurgle locus, so another bonus wound on 6s or advance/charge.
I dunno, I'm starting to think that maybe they are almost worth it? Pair it with a tree so they get 1+ saves round one? I dunno, probably still wishful thinking, but they are really pumping up those stats >.>
Opps, actually, the discussion started on page 37 lol
Automatically Appended Next Post: This was before we knew about the new prayer that the DA would have that gives a -1 to hit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, the thought was to go Alpha legion with the possessed, use forward operatives to scout move them forward 9 inches. And then stack all the buffs you can on them, including using daemon heralds so that they would be an unkillable monster unit in combat. They are probably the unit that can have the most buffs stacked on.
Reason: they are Legion, daemon, infantry. You can also use the black legion strategem Chosen of the Pantheon to give them all 4 marks until the start of your next turn. This makes it possible to stack all 4 Khorne, slanaash, tzeenth, nurgle herald aura's on them. Plus whatever relics auras on them. You can use all 4 mark strategems on them (from the CSM codex).
the Darmonkin ritualist detachment works for them, the strategem to give them +1 Str, +1 Attack also works on them.
I didn't try and find out what kind of monstrosity level you can buff them to if you use Chosen of the Pantheon and go for the limit. But its probably pretty ridiculous. lol But it would probably require almost your entire army to do it... If you didn't go multi mark herald in your daemon detachment, then your daemon herald can get the Loci. And the aura of that loci will also affect possessed. So, like for example, Khone loci can gives possessed reroll charge, slanaash loci can give possessed advance and charge. I think you can make them -3 to hit, invul save of 3++, then str 8 or higher (depending on how you want to abuse chosen of the pantheon). Can have slanaash cast the psychic on them to fight again while within 1 inch, can use the khorne stragem fury of khorne to fight again also. Mercilous fighers for another +1 attack if they outnumber, the ritualist strategem... etc etc.
It's about 1k if my math is right. 2 sorcs, MoP, DA, bloodmaster with crown, another herald, greater possessed and 20 BL possessed.
40 T4 wounds at 3++/5+++, -2 to be hit, moving 14", hitting on 2s at S8, MWs and exploding attacks on 6s to wound, regaining 2d3 wounds a turn
Automatically Appended Next Post: Read through the discussion you pointed out and didn't see this idea though... Seems like a solid anchor with enough points left for a Corsairs battalion and some daemons
TankCmdr wrote: It's about 1k if my math is right. 2 sorcs, MoP, DA, bloodmaster with crown, another herald, greater possessed and 20 BL possessed.
40 T4 wounds at 3++/5+++, -2 to be hit, moving 14", hitting on 2s at S8, MWs and exploding attacks on 6s to wound, regaining 2d3 wounds a turn
Automatically Appended Next Post: Read through the discussion you pointed out and didn't see this idea though... Seems like a solid anchor with enough points left for a Corsairs battalion and some daemons
936pts? really? for a unit heavily rely on characters (watch out assassins) and psy powers, usually charge some screens then did, no ty, at least for me
TankCmdr wrote: It's about 1k if my math is right. 2 sorcs, MoP, DA, bloodmaster with crown, another herald, greater possessed and 20 BL possessed.
40 T4 wounds at 3++/5+++, -2 to be hit, moving 14", hitting on 2s at S8, MWs and exploding attacks on 6s to wound, regaining 2d3 wounds a turn
Automatically Appended Next Post: Read through the discussion you pointed out and didn't see this idea though... Seems like a solid anchor with enough points left for a Corsairs battalion and some daemons
936pts? really? for a unit heavily rely on characters (watch out assassins) and psy powers, usually charge some screens then did, no ty, at least for me
Yes, there are mitigating factors, no doubt. As I said, I don't normally play chaos and was asking for constructive feedback. I usually play guard, most of my units rely on at least two characters lol. Just thought this looked like a fun combo that could be easily fleshed out into an rc battalion and bl vanguard, with enough left over for some daemons or TS or something
tinfoil wrote: To accomplish the last part of the plan (flinging the Defiler into assault after it has advanced) you'll have to Soulforge the detachment you draw the Defiler from (presumably a Battalion). And probably may as well Soulforge the Supreme Command detachment as well? -- to increase the threat range of the Lord Discordant.
edit: nope, can't have either the sorcerer or the MoP in a Soulforged detachment. So, stash the Lord Discordant in with a clutch of daemon engines for the Heavy detachment, and craft a battalion with your sorcerer on disk and your MoP as hq elements, and fill in with cultists as troops (sacrificing when necessary to nourish your daemon engines as they take wounds).
I think you can turn any detachment into the Soulforged Pack Specialist Detachment, its just that only Warpsmiths and Daemon Engines gain the associated keyword.
"Use this Stratagem when choosing your army. Pick a Chaos Space Marine Detachment from your army to be a Soulforged Pack Specialist Detachment. WARPSMITH and DAEMON ENGINE units in that Detachment gain the SOULFORGED PACK keyword."
Either way, I agree the best choice would be the Lord Discordant with all the Daemon Engines for value's sake. I hadn't actually considered taking extra cultists as Sacrifice fodder, it sounds interesting but the only worry I'd have there is making sure the MoP could keep up with anything to use it consistently - only having a 6" move is a bummer for sure.
tinfoil wrote: To accomplish the last part of the plan (flinging the Defiler into assault after it has advanced) you'll have to Soulforge the detachment you draw the Defiler from (presumably a Battalion). And probably may as well Soulforge the Supreme Command detachment as well? -- to increase the threat range of the Lord Discordant.
edit: nope, can't have either the sorcerer or the MoP in a Soulforged detachment. So, stash the Lord Discordant in with a clutch of daemon engines for the Heavy detachment, and craft a battalion with your sorcerer on disk and your MoP as hq elements, and fill in with cultists as troops (sacrificing when necessary to nourish your daemon engines as they take wounds).
I think you can turn any detachment into the Soulforged Pack Specialist Detachment, its just that only Warpsmiths and Daemon Engines gain the associated keyword.
"Use this Stratagem when choosing your army. Pick a Chaos Space Marine Detachment from your army to be a Soulforged Pack Specialist Detachment. WARPSMITH and DAEMON ENGINE units in that Detachment gain the SOULFORGED PACK keyword."
Either way, I agree the best choice would be the Lord Discordant with all the Daemon Engines for value's sake. I hadn't actually considered taking extra cultists as Sacrifice fodder, it sounds interesting but the only worry I'd have there is making sure the MoP could keep up with anything to use it consistently - only having a 6" move is a bummer for sure.
The issue with the MoP keeping up can be somewhat mitigated if you're open to making the detachment Brazen Beasts: give him the relic armour that grants an extra inch of movement and always advance him. You could also give him the Arch-Sorceror WL trait and cast Warptime on himself.
TankCmdr wrote: It's about 1k if my math is right. 2 sorcs, MoP, DA, bloodmaster with crown, another herald, greater possessed and 20 BL possessed.
40 T4 wounds at 3++/5+++, -2 to be hit, moving 14", hitting on 2s at S8, MWs and exploding attacks on 6s to wound, regaining 2d3 wounds a turn
Automatically Appended Next Post: Read through the discussion you pointed out and didn't see this idea though... Seems like a solid anchor with enough points left for a Corsairs battalion and some daemons
936pts? really? for a unit heavily rely on characters (watch out assassins) and psy powers, usually charge some screens then did, no ty, at least for me
Yes, there are mitigating factors, no doubt. As I said, I don't normally play chaos and was asking for constructive feedback. I usually play guard, most of my units rely on at least two characters lol. Just thought this looked like a fun combo that could be easily fleshed out into an rc battalion and bl vanguard, with enough left over for some daemons or TS or something
yes the combo could be powerful but rely on too much on powers you can fail or be countered and lot of characters needed, a single vindicare can crush it, then anyway sure is a fun thing to try.
5 more possessed to build...15 done today. Plan on running emperors children possessed, either a giant unit of 20 or two units of 10, along with greater possessed backed up by noise marines and daemons. No idea how it will perform, but I think they'll do nicely in my local meta.
Just beat Ultramarines + Celestine with Slaaneshi Word Bearers + Nurgle Daemons.
Maelstrom, table quarters deployment. Drew some good tactical objectives early, got most of my army killed doing it but it drew a load of units together. After that, Celestine, the Geminae, and two squads were all next to a nearly dead Venerable Dreadnought; I cast Possession with MoP and charged in, popping the Dreadnought and killing loads more. That speedbumped her so much I decided to taunt by throwing a CP at Boon. Rolled a 6 so threw another CP at rerolling the other dice. Didn’t get Apotheosis, but it was an excellent psych out that drew her in to focus on the MoP and not establish board control. Won 14-9
lindsay40k wrote: Just beat Ultramarines + Celestine with Slaaneshi Word Bearers + Nurgle Daemons.
Maelstrom, table quarters deployment. Drew some good tactical objectives early, got most of my army killed doing it but it drew a load of units together. After that, Celestine, the Geminae, and two squads were all next to a nearly dead Venerable Dreadnought; I cast Possession with MoP and charged in, popping the Dreadnought and killing loads more. That speedbumped her so much I decided to taunt by throwing a CP at Boon. Rolled a 6 so threw another CP at rerolling the other dice. Didn’t get Apotheosis, but it was an excellent psych out that drew her in to focus on the MoP and not establish board control. Won 14-9
God job! Think you will modify your list in any way?
Oh, totally, this was just stuff that happened to be to hand and easily packed. Epidemius was nothing more than a backfield scarecrow - kept her deepstrikers from planting a flag in my DZ, but for all my criticisms of it a new DA could have done the same and also given the NMs longevity. I took Possession because it’s a campaign game and I’m trying to create spectacles like an Apotheosis, competitively I don’t think I’d even bother with MoP in this list as he had no synergies.
If I’d had a Flying Slaaneshi DP, I’d have took it to replace MoP and my Lord on Steed in a flash, taking Elixir & Voice of Lorgar & Warptime. If Priority Orders come in - easily possible, we nearly got to the bottom of the TO deck - I want my Warlord to be able to get a solid touchdown, and return to the front line if they have to run backwards.
Not sure how budgetable it’d be, but if there were enough points left over I’d probably switch Epidemius for a DP, too. Or go full Slaanesh Daemonkin by replacing the Daemons altogether with KoS, Herald on Steed, and Fiends.
It wasn’t a very big game, so I’d also add some Cultists and Heretac Chaingun teams for CP.
Alpgha Legion posessed are pretty nice all in themselves with nurgle, though - with Sorc, MoP and DA buffs they are -3 to hit, meaning guardsmen can't hit you at all and marines hit you only on sixes. Herald buffs are nice, but the price hikes really fast and really high. May be even toss in Fabius for that extra oomph.
I was thinking of making a squad of 5 chosen with plasma pistol + Lightning claws as I've always loved the loadout in past editions.
Any thoughts on if that would be good though? Semi competitive at best as I want a sneaky little 5 man squad to not look too threatening but have a lot of bite when it arrives.
Might've been mentioned but the new Battlescribe data has Oblits as 65pts per pop.
I know the new Chaos book had them as this but assumed that was due to a direct cut and paste from the old edition.
I'm not putting any credit into this but it's sparked a faint glimmer of hope that they'll actually be 65pts. Suppose we just have to wait for the FAQ.
lare2 wrote: Might've been mentioned but the new Battlescribe data has Oblits as 65pts per pop.
I know the new Chaos book had them as this but assumed that was due to a direct cut and paste from the old edition.
I'm not putting any credit into this but it's sparked a faint glimmer of hope that they'll actually be 65pts. Suppose we just have to wait for the FAQ.
Until the FAQ comes out it is indeed correct to play them as 65 pts per raw.
For the sake of your social standing in your gaming group i would not reccomend it however, mostly due to GW admitting they fethed up there........
lare2 wrote: Might've been mentioned but the new Battlescribe data has Oblits as 65pts per pop.
I know the new Chaos book had them as this but assumed that was due to a direct cut and paste from the old edition.
I'm not putting any credit into this but it's sparked a faint glimmer of hope that they'll actually be 65pts. Suppose we just have to wait for the FAQ.
Until the FAQ comes out it is indeed correct to play them as 65 pts per raw.
For the sake of your social standing in your gaming group i would not reccomend it however, mostly due to GW admitting they fethed up there........
Oh aye, there's no way I'd run them as 65pts. Still though... here's hoping they messed up Shadowspear rather than the codex.
lare2 wrote: Might've been mentioned but the new Battlescribe data has Oblits as 65pts per pop.
I know the new Chaos book had them as this but assumed that was due to a direct cut and paste from the old edition.
I'm not putting any credit into this but it's sparked a faint glimmer of hope that they'll actually be 65pts. Suppose we just have to wait for the FAQ.
Until the FAQ comes out it is indeed correct to play them as 65 pts per raw.
For the sake of your social standing in your gaming group i would not reccomend it however, mostly due to GW admitting they fethed up there........
Oh aye, there's no way I'd run them as 65pts. Still though... here's hoping they messed up Shadowspear rather than the codex.
Optimistic, they want to sell Havocs first since less players allready have havocs unlike oblits.
Atleast that is how i rationalized it.
Frankly i hope they will be around 100 pts a pop. (probably slightly less but i feel like this would be better)
Seeing all the new CSM models has made me want to go back to my original army (from a long long time ago).
I've been playing around with battlescribe and reading so tactica and am almost ready to start buying models... but I'd like to see what people think of the general idea.
I'm thinking Alpha legion at the moment, mainly because I like their colour scheme, bonus and fluff a bit more than emperors children (pink is a bit of a deal breaker).
I definitely want to run a DP, I'd stick the elixir on him and have him as my WL. Possibly with the Aplha WL trait.
Troops CSM min squads with a ML.
I'm liking the idea of having a 10 man termi squad with combi plasma - is this really a good idea? Is this outclassed now by other options?
Termi sorcerer to back them up (12 points more than a regular one seems like a good idea to me)
1-2 squads of Bikers with combi-bolters for moving up the board quickly and screen clearing.
2 havok squads, one with LCs and MLs and another with the chain guns. (possibly using alpha strat to how chain guns back t1)
The trying to figure out the best way of getting beserkers into the list - was looking at having a world eaters Bat with 1-2 squads, and some cultists for screening, and a rhino or 2 to ferry them around. And for hq having a lord and exlt champ with murder sword with them.
That's the plan so far.. not massively keen on the berserker models, but having mained orks I really like a fighty unit which can steamroll through the enemy lines.
Is there anything that I am missing which is an auto include? Or any major mistake? I'm assuming Alpha legion is a decent choice?
TankCmdr wrote: It's about 1k if my math is right. 2 sorcs, MoP, DA, bloodmaster with crown, another herald, greater possessed and 20 BL possessed.
40 T4 wounds at 3++/5+++, -2 to be hit, moving 14", hitting on 2s at S8, MWs and exploding attacks on 6s to wound, regaining 2d3 wounds a turn
Automatically Appended Next Post: Read through the discussion you pointed out and didn't see this idea though... Seems like a solid anchor with enough points left for a Corsairs battalion and some daemons
936pts? really? for a unit heavily rely on characters (watch out assassins) and psy powers, usually charge some screens then did, no ty, at least for me
Yes, there are mitigating factors, no doubt. As I said, I don't normally play chaos and was asking for constructive feedback. I usually play guard, most of my units rely on at least two characters lol. Just thought this looked like a fun combo that could be easily fleshed out into an rc battalion and bl vanguard, with enough left over for some daemons or TS or something
Yea but I play guard too and it's not that hard to deconstruct. Guard have bulgryn that can get their saves below zero and have hit mods as well. Thats one of the best combat bombs out there still. It requires less points in buffing characters too.
I think that's the biggest factor here, the buffs are all really nice that we just got, but you can't take all of them without over inflating your investment. At some point it would be better to just take a second unit of possessed and rely on less powers. In a standard game your never getting all those powers off. You will fail a few and they could deny a crucial one, then it's game over. That doesn't require much on their part to counter. Possessed still lack fly and/or ranged attacks, so you can make each one hit like abbadon, I don't care, I'll just movement block you with fliers or some other cheap scout. Any unit that can be completely mitigated by your opponents movement had better not cost you half your armies points.
Seeing all the new CSM models has made me want to go back to my original army (from a long long time ago).
I've been playing around with battlescribe and reading so tactica and am almost ready to start buying models... but I'd like to see what people think of the general idea.
I'm thinking Alpha legion at the moment, mainly because I like their colour scheme, bonus and fluff a bit more than emperors children (pink is a bit of a deal breaker).
Whilest pink is a favourite, you don't really need to use just pink but really gaudy combination, see that one event miniature. AL is a good choice though aswell.
I definitely want to run a DP, I'd stick the elixir on him and have him as my WL. Possibly with the Aplha WL trait.
Troops CSM min squads with a ML.
Why not, cultists might be cheaper and more fluffy for AL and Missile launchers are a bit expensive, if you still prefer CSM over cultists though, i'd go with an Autocannon instead.
I'm liking the idea of having a 10 man termi squad with combi plasma - is this really a good idea? Is this outclassed now by other options? Termi sorcerer to back them up (12 points more than a regular one seems like a good idea to me)
Ok positives first, CSM terminators can take Chainaxes, this makes them Cheaper then other Terminator options, bad news, as stated above, the squad is anything but points efficent still. (I would also pick a Lord over a sorcerer for the reroll 1's aura)
1-2 squads of Bikers with combi-bolters for moving up the board quickly and screen clearing.
Probably better to pick chosen though.
2 havok squads, one with LCs and MLs and another with the chain guns. (possibly using alpha strat to how chain guns back t1)
Again I would prefer AC over Missile launchers due to reasons above especcially in regards to points.
The trying to figure out the best way of getting beserkers into the list - was looking at having a world eaters Bat with 1-2 squads, and some cultists for screening, and a rhino or 2 to ferry them around. And for hq having a lord and exlt champ with murder sword with them.
That's the plan so far.. not massively keen on the berserker models, but having mained orks I really like a fighty unit which can steamroll through the enemy lines.
Is there anything that I am missing which is an auto include? Or any major mistake? I'm assuming Alpha legion is a decent choice?
Berserkers could be made into red corsairs for advance and charge, add a sorcerer with warptime, and another psy power and profit from that . Frankly if you want to field this list competitively get rid of the terminators. More DA's, a CP battery of the red corsairs brand and obliterators (jury still not sure about them due to the high cost of buffs)
I wouldn't say chosen are better then bikes personally.
71pts gets you 3 bikes with a double combi champ, thats 6 T5 wounds moving 14" and firing 16 shots full effect out to 24".
80pts for 5 chosen with combis only gets you 4 more shots if your standing still or within 12" otherwise they drop off to 6 less shots. The 3 bikes also have one more wound, and with each wound they take they lose less firepower.
The bikes can also take specials and retain their combi bolter.
I'll try removing the MLs from the list and see what that does for points, I'm definitely a fan of having a heavy weapon in each squad.
The reason I'm not really going for more cultists is that after painting around 200 orks I want to keep the model count somewhat under control(!)
That's a shame about the terminators.. I may still pick them up as I am nostalgic about the models, but I get that it's a huge points investment. I was thinking the investment was mitigated a bit by being able to fire twice, and potentially safely overcharged with the right psychic power.
On the flip side dropping them would free up a lot of points for other models. In terms of dealing with knights, do we have anything comparable that can deliver a reliable sucker punch?
I really like bikes, the 14" move can really get them where you need them, and the beta bolters rules are a decent buff, I think I'd take them in any type of SM list at the moment personally.
There is a reason why you don't want to only focus on the points per damage of a unit. Mobility and durability are at least as important and often more important. Terminators are actually solid. Depends more on the list and your play style.
Klone12 wrote: So in 8th you can move after disembarking.
Can't you move out of a kharibdys ?
I think the kharibdyss being in 9" and you being able to disembark 6" from the enemy and charge with rerolls is enough, but you never know.
Not sure what you’re asking here, so I’ll provide a few answers -
Kharybdis arrives from orbit carrying passengers: place KAC over 9” away from enemies, then disembark passengers (whether you want to or not - this is specified in KAC Datasheet’s textwall) both within 3” of KAC and also over 9” away from enemies (KAC Datasheet); none of the above can take a move this turn (all of the above is resolved ‘at the end of the movement phase’), be it in the movement phase or via Warptime (CSMFAQ) but all are allowed to attempt charges
Kharybdis starts turn carrying passengers and also within 9” of enemies: passengers choose whether or not to disembark, if they do so then they are placed both within 3” of KAC and also over 1” away from enemies, then make a normal move; KAC may move 15”; all of the above may be Warptimed, charge, ect
Minor note - eligible passengers can board the KAC before or after it moves. There’s some pretty preposterous stuff you can do with fast transports, though I doubt most of it is especially useful
Automatically Appended Next Post: Further note - DA hit modifier prayer gives a deployed KAC an interesting longevity. Rendezvous with a Warptimer, throw it into the middle of the enemy army full of Berzerkers, flame out, declare charges against EVERYONE, get killed by Overwatch, Berzerkers rev up and go nuts
Omg you could stack two DA’s to give it -1 to be hit and a 5++, if you lose first turn and KAC survives nearly dead they board with disciples and EC and fly over, KAC commits suicide by Overwatch, now you’ve got Berzerkers with 5++ and -1 to be hit right in the enemy’s face
...not impossible to co-ordinate with a Fiends of Slaanesh pincer movement to make the enemy’s screening unit unable to run away from twenty angry Berzerkers and a bunch of beatsticks
