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Pandabeer wrote:
Sightless helm will be quite nice on a Lord Discordant with Baleflamer... he doesn't care about his BS and it makes ALL of his weapons -1 AP better. AP -3 Baleflamer, AP -3 spear, AP -3 Helstalker legs and AP-5 Technovirus Injector

When I get around to running a Supreme Command detachment of three of these (or a Battalion perhaps) I plan on equipping one with the Helm, one with the Mechatendrils from the Vigilus detachment, and one with the Intoxicating Elixir. Expensive CP wise but those three will maul almost anything they touch! After that, it's a matter of deciding which one gets the halving damage Warlord Trait from Black Legion

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
Sightless helm will be quite nice on a Lord Discordant with Baleflamer... he doesn't care about his BS and it makes ALL of his weapons -1 AP better. AP -3 Baleflamer, AP -3 spear, AP -3 Helstalker legs and AP-5 Technovirus Injector

That wouldn't be a bad idea.

I'm personally leaning towards the Brazen Beasts Fleshplate. The additional movement is nice, but the 2+ it confers is pretty important to me.

Lord of discordant is already 2+ though, if I remember correctly. I like sightless helm on a LOD. There are so many good relics now to explore. Like that raptorial host jump pack lord with black legion chain axe. Chaos lord can take a combi bolter with thunderhamer a well right? Because that black legion combi bolter is a pretty fierce weapon. And if you are going raptorial host jumpack lord, might as well take one more. Combine the shooting damage from that relic bolter wth thunder hammer and you will do a ton of dmg in both the shooting and the close combat phase. Just need one more mini warlord nearby who has that warlord trait to allow people within 6 inches to charge after they have fallen back, and you can keep doing this all the time.

I am toying with giving a secondary terminator sorcerer that warlord trait (veteran raider I think its called) with council of traitors. and it will have diabolic strength. He drops in together with the raptorial host jump pack lords. He casts diabolic strength on the Ghorisvix's teeth lord and prescience on another lord with Thunderhammer. So, that guy will now have 8 attacks, -3AP, D2, STR 6 and causing mortal wounds on 6s. And another jumppack lord can have that relic combi bolter and thunder hammer. 4 shots of D3 on imperium, followed by a thunder hammer attacks also doing D3, (with presciece allowing him to strike on 2s and DTTFE with a thunder hamer). That's 8 attacks on D3 at least and he hasn't even used any strategem yet. And the jump pack lords will be able to fall back, shoot and charge again all day because of the Sorceror raid leader trait.

Alternatively, make the sorceror a jump pack sorceror as well so that he can charge into combat too along with the rest of the raptorial host. lol Melee sorcerors aren't that scary though. Not sure whats the best way to make a scary melee sorceror. I would put the relic on the sorceror but is he is BS 3+, so a lord is better. Maybe intoxicating elixir with the Sorceror's force sword.

Alpha legion gunline could be superb. Chuck a load of Havoks and some oblits in a castle shielded by cultists and a battalion of Red Corsairs space marines. Give them the devestation battery detachment and a dark apostle in the casting the minus 1 to hit power and you've got a very deadly gunline that can sit and pump out fire very safely as the new power provides a minus 1 to hit aura.
Coupled with the devestation battery detachment which lets units fire in the enemies first movement phase before even being fired upon themselves! It's one of the less complex ideas but I really fancy giving it a go.

So guys say you were gonna run 20 marines for red corsair strat fun how would you now do it?

I'm thinking with 2 chain cannons and mark or slaanesh
DA support with -1 to hit them prayer
Sorcerer casting delightful agonies for 5+fnp and prescience.
Voltlw and double tap strat them then bring em back on when they taking a beating

With beta bolter and everything going to plan that's 72 bolter shots likely hitting on 2s wounding t4 on a 3 or most tanks on a 4 and 32 chain cannon shots

So many pts and cp though hmmm

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
Sightless helm will be quite nice on a Lord Discordant with Baleflamer... he doesn't care about his BS and it makes ALL of his weapons -1 AP better. AP -3 Baleflamer, AP -3 spear, AP -3 Helstalker legs and AP-5 Technovirus Injector

That wouldn't be a bad idea.

I'm personally leaning towards the Brazen Beasts Fleshplate. The additional movement is nice, but the 2+ it confers is pretty important to me.

Lord Discordant is 2+ baseline.

Brazen Beasts plate is a pretty easy "this goes on a daemon prince" item. Otherwise, if you run MoK on the Discordant, the Talisman of Burning Blood is a not-bad idea. 12+d6 move, shoot baleflamer, charge with reroll. yey.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Alpha legion gunline could be superb. Chuck a load of Havoks and some oblits in a castle shielded by cultists and a battalion of Red Corsairs space marines. Give them the devestation battery detachment and a dark apostle in the casting the minus 1 to hit power and you've got a very deadly gunline that can sit and pump out fire very safely as the new power provides a minus 1 to hit aura.
Coupled with the devestation battery detachment which lets units fire in the enemies first movement phase before even being fired upon themselves! It's one of the less complex ideas but I really fancy giving it a go.

Point of order - the -1 to be hit prayer affects a single unit, it is not an aura.

 Zid wrote:
Soooooo The Purge Obliterators.... yep.

3 of them, nurgle, in an epidemus list killed: relic scorpius, around 16 scouts, smash captain, and a few sternguard and veterans w Stormshields, essentially pinning a girlyman list. End of game i had lost 1, they charged into telion + 2 remianjng scouts, but they survived (he made all his saves). But they saved my bacon.

I was running an Epidemus centered list using PBCs, oblits, and defilers. Defilers still meh... 2 charged the smash captain, one after another, and the damn smash captain killed both eveb using demonforge to reroll everything. He kept making his saves :/

Yea but that's not really defy's fault lol. That happens sometimes with shield captains and it is very frustrating.

 Latro_ wrote:
So guys say you were gonna run 20 marines for red corsair strat fun how would you now do it?

I'm thinking with 2 chain cannons and mark or slaanesh
DA support with -1 to hit them prayer
Sorcerer casting delightful agonies for 5+fnp and prescience.
Voltlw and double tap strat them then bring em back on when they taking a beating

VotLW isn’t available to Red Corsairs since they’re Renegades, does it?

Invul wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
So guys say you were gonna run 20 marines for red corsair strat fun how would you now do it?

I'm thinking with 2 chain cannons and mark or slaanesh
DA support with -1 to hit them prayer
Sorcerer casting delightful agonies for 5+fnp and prescience.
Voltlw and double tap strat them then bring em back on when they taking a beating

VotLW isn’t available to Red Corsairs since they’re Renegades, does it?

Ayy Votwl, then again maybee more multitooled with 2 PG's and a PP aswell as some psyker support and a DA?

I'm suprised there's not more noise being made about the council of traitors stratigium. it is soimewhat build specific, but the ability to get 3 warlords traits just seems o have some pretty good options.

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm suprised there's not more noise being made about the council of traitors stratigium. it is soimewhat build specific, but the ability to get 3 warlords traits just seems o have some pretty good options.

I've been thinking about it. This coupled with Black Legion's nice relics could open up the potential to run a lot of really nasty characters. How about a list that focuses on character screening and getting characters in to do the heavy lifting? Abaddon can already wreck knights, for example. Character heavy lists fear vindicares of course, but that's why you run a bunch of them and have terminators, daemon princes, and bikers.

So I'm finding the new Havoc trait pretty horrible. An inability tot take extra models is pretty horrible - means that any sort of damage the unit takes is pretty much a game over (T5 isn't really very helpful when you've an armour save of 3+ and 1 wound).

I don't think I've won a game against my enemies Tau in something like 6 or 7 games or something. It's genuinely humiliating at this point. The only way to keep myself on the table is to take the Alpha Legion trait (if GW changes it to a cover save it becomes hot garbage). Anyone know any good tactics (presumably ones that don't involve buying an extensive amount of Forge World drop pods or drills).

 blood reaper wrote:
So I'm finding the new Havoc trait pretty horrible. An inability tot take extra models is pretty horrible - means that any sort of damage the unit takes is pretty much a game over (T5 isn't really very helpful when you've an armour save of 3+ and 1 wound).

I don't think I've won a game against my enemies Tau in something like 6 or 7 games or something. It's genuinely humiliating at this point. The only way to keep myself on the table is to take the Alpha Legion trait (if GW changes it to a cover save it becomes hot garbage). Anyone know any good tactics (presumably ones that don't involve buying an extensive amount of Forge World drop pods or drills).

More terrain?

 blood reaper wrote:
So I'm finding the new Havoc trait pretty horrible. An inability tot take extra models is pretty horrible - means that any sort of damage the unit takes is pretty much a game over (T5 isn't really very helpful when you've an armour save of 3+ and 1 wound).

I don't think I've won a game against my enemies Tau in something like 6 or 7 games or something. It's genuinely humiliating at this point. The only way to keep myself on the table is to take the Alpha Legion trait (if GW changes it to a cover save it becomes hot garbage). Anyone know any good tactics (presumably ones that don't involve buying an extensive amount of Forge World drop pods or drills).

Nah, new Havocs actually make more sense.

A Flawless Host Daemon Prince with the Ultimate Confidence-Trait and either relic that adds +1 A and dual talons has 8 attacks that with Prescience triggers 4 additional attacks against the Imperium or 3 additional attacks against non-Imperium on 5+.

Potentially 40 attacks, with a very respectable 18,67 attacks on average against <Imperium> and 16 attacks against non-<Imperium>.

Flawless Host in general has some great synergy with the Slaanesh-Icon, Prescience and their stratagem.

Started painting up my CSM as iron warriors but will be using black legion rules, hopefully people wouldn't mind that if they are totally clear.

I ran the numbers on missile launchers too as people were talking about it over at the B&C. I've compared both missile types to the autocannon and lascannon.



The Krak Missile vs Lascannon is a straightforward comparison. In the best case scenario of re-rolling 1's to hit and wound, the Krak about breaks even in efficiency per point vs Rhinos, but fails against tougher armor (the stuff that really matters.) It also beats the autocannon in the case of all 3 vehicle types, but the efficiency isn't actually that far ahead. The gap between autocannon and missile launcher is smaller than the gap between missiles and lascannons vs the tougher tanks.

Does the frag missile profile make up for the difference in performance between the krak and the lascannon? That's going to be situational of course. Theoretically you could encounter a situation where there are no good targets for a lascannon/krak missile. But is that actually going to happen in the current meta? Green Tide exists, but I don't think it's that common an issue. And let's note that the Lascannon is actually more efficient against Space Marines and Multi-Wound infantry than either Frag or Krak missiles. The Frag only has a role vs horde infantry.

So how about the comparison with the autocannon? Both the missile Launcher and Autocannon serve a similar role as flexible weaponry. One by having 2 profiles, and the other by having a middle ground profile and being cheap. As mentioned before, the autocannon is a bit behind vs high toughness vehicles. It pulls even against light vehicles, especially ones with poor armor saves. Its more efficient against space marines than either Frag or Krak, about equal against multi-wound heavy infantry, and better against multi-wound infantry with lesser armor save. And surprisingly, even beats out Frag Missiles vs both boyz and Guard, the main place we'd expect frag missiles to excel (and where the autocannons D2 is wasted). And it has the advantage of just being a cheaper squad overall!

So now we have numbers to put to my initial instinct that missile launchers weren't good and have no real role because Autocannons do it better. If you don't want lascannons because you aren't sure you'll have enough targets for them, you should be using autocannons. Or perhaps a mix of autocannons and missile launchers to shift away from infantry and towards anti-armor, and so you can use Flakk Missile strat.

I'll also point out that the reason the missile launcher doesn't compete isn't because of krak missiles, it's because frag missiles are bad. And frag missiles are bad for 2 reasons:
1) Because all formerly small blast weapons are bad. 1d6 shots is not a proper translation of what a small blast could achieve. It should have been 3+d3, in which case the frag missile would beat the autocannon vs hordes, as it ought to.
2) Because all of these Marine former str4 ap5 weapons became str4 ap0, which is also why regular bolters aren't that good. Other faction's Str4 ap5 weapons became Str4 ap-1 or equivalent special mechanics (Necrons and Eldar), or got significant mechanics to help them out (orks.)

So the Frag missile is a victim of a double whammy of system changes without its stats being adjusted to make up for it. If these issues got fixed, it'd be good at its current cost and have a role again. If it got cheaper in points, the frag missile would re-gain its role vs the autocannon, but then krak missiles would steal the role of lascannons. Which is why it's better to fix its stats than to just make it cheaper.

 MinscS2 wrote:
A Flawless Host Daemon Prince with the Ultimate Confidence-Trait and either relic that adds +1 A and dual talons has 8 attacks that with Prescience triggers 4 additional attacks against the Imperium or 3 additional attacks against non-Imperium on 5+.

Potentially 40 attacks, with a very respectable 18,67 attacks on average against <Imperium> and 16 attacks against non-<Imperium>.

Flawless Host in general has some great synergy with the Slaanesh-Icon, Prescience and their stratagem.

Amazing blender-prince potential there. Throw in VOTLW to ensure translation of those hits into wounds and it will kill whatever you point it at

^ can a MONSTER use VOTLW?

 NurglesR0T wrote:


Amazing blender-prince potential there. Throw in VOTLW to ensure translation of those hits into wounds and it will kill whatever you point it at

Flawless Host can’t use VotLW

Renegade chapters like the Flawless Host, cannot.

 MinscS2 wrote:
A Flawless Host Daemon Prince with the Ultimate Confidence-Trait and either relic that adds +1 A and dual talons has 8 attacks that with Prescience triggers 4 additional attacks against the Imperium or 3 additional attacks against non-Imperium on 5+.

Potentially 40 attacks, with a very respectable 18,67 attacks on average against <Imperium> and 16 attacks against non-<Imperium>.

Flawless Host in general has some great synergy with the Slaanesh-Icon, Prescience and their stratagem.

Slight correction, I forgot to take the misses (and following re-rolls) into the equation, and my math was slightly off to begin with.

In total, a Flawless Host DP with 8 attacks (from either Intoxicating Elixir or Flawless Cloak) would on average get:
17,11 attacks against non-imperium.
20,22 attacks against imperium.

 NurglesR0T wrote:


Amazing blender-prince potential there. Throw in VOTLW to ensure translation of those hits into wounds and it will kill whatever you point it at

As already pointed out, Flawless Host can't use the VotLW-stratagem due to being renegades.

However, with Intoxicating Elixir, the DP will go from S7 to S8, and so essentially gets +1 to wound against the things that truly matter: T4, T7 and T8.

Add demonic strength power for an additional attack and +2 strength to really bring home the pain....

Invul wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:


Amazing blender-prince potential there. Throw in VOTLW to ensure translation of those hits into wounds and it will kill whatever you point it at

Flawless Host can’t use VotLW

Ah ok, thanks for pointing that out

I wonder, can anyone with the new codex confirm whether Huron has had his fixed Warlord Trait changed to the Red Corsairs one please?

Not seen it mentioned anywhere, but, unsure if anyone has thought to check.

Kdash wrote:
I wonder, can anyone with the new codex confirm whether Huron has had his fixed Warlord Trait changed to the Red Corsairs one please?

Not seen it mentioned anywhere, but, unsure if anyone has thought to check.

Huron as off vigilus ablaze always has to take the Red corsair trait in Vigilus ablaze if he is Warlord.
I don't know about codex 2.0 because i am stubbornly resisting to buy it, since they themselves stated that i wouldn't need to buy it.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Kdash wrote:
I wonder, can anyone with the new codex confirm whether Huron has had his fixed Warlord Trait changed to the Red Corsairs one please?

Not seen it mentioned anywhere, but, unsure if anyone has thought to check.

Huron as off vigilus ablaze always has to take the Red corsair trait in Vigilus ablaze if he is Warlord.
I don't know about codex 2.0 because i am stubbornly resisting to buy it, since they themselves stated that i wouldn't need to buy it.

Oh cool, thanks. I was hoping it was the case, but i wasn't putting it past GW to make him keep the old fixed trait.

Kdash wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Kdash wrote:
I wonder, can anyone with the new codex confirm whether Huron has had his fixed Warlord Trait changed to the Red Corsairs one please?

Not seen it mentioned anywhere, but, unsure if anyone has thought to check.

Huron as off vigilus ablaze always has to take the Red corsair trait in Vigilus ablaze if he is Warlord.
I don't know about codex 2.0 because i am stubbornly resisting to buy it, since they themselves stated that i wouldn't need to buy it.

Oh cool, thanks. I was hoping it was the case, but i wasn't putting it past GW to make him keep the old fixed trait.

Look at it from a positive angle, you always get a free malestromsbite on top of a regular Relic due to it.

 lindsay40k wrote:
^ can a MONSTER use VOTLW?

no only infantry and bickes