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TankCmdr wrote:
Hey, so I mostly play guard, but I've got some chaos stuff I want to expand, and I'm curious why the ritualist detachment isn't getting more love?
Black Legion with strats, buffs and daemon allies could get them to S8, Ad3+2 if they outnumber the enemy, MWs on 6s to wound, 3++/5+++, -2 to be hit, healing 2d3 wounds a turn.

Is it just that it's a huge point sink? Still seems like a squad of 20 could push up the midfield pretty imperviously and wipe whatever it hits

It is. This big blob of killer possessed squad supported by all the various buffs was extensively discussed quite a few pages back. And yes, its part of the ritualist detachment.


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drakerocket wrote:
So quick scenario: 20 strong alpha legion possessed unit, starts off the game with a nurgle tree by them. 40 wounds guarded by -1 to hit 1+ saves. Even if you lose first turn that will be hard to shift. Starting on your turn give them another -1 to be hit from a nurgle spell, -1 to be hit from dark apostate....now they are immune to 4+ shooting and 3+ shooting hits them on 6s....

So now you have what makes all of the rest of it make sense: a walking wall of nearly invincible meat. Now you can foot slog all of those support characters behind them.

I found it. Its on page 40. From there on, quite a few posts discussed this possessed concept.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

TankCmdr wrote:
Hey, so I mostly play guard, but I've got some chaos stuff I want to expand, and I'm curious why the ritualist detachment isn't getting more love?
Black Legion with strats, buffs and daemon allies could get them to S8, Ad3+2 if they outnumber the enemy, MWs on 6s to wound, 3++/5+++, -2 to be hit, healing 2d3 wounds a turn.

Is it just that it's a huge point sink? Still seems like a squad of 20 could push up the midfield pretty imperviously and wipe whatever it hits

It is. This big blob of killer possessed squad supported by all the various buffs was extensively discussed quite a few pages back. And yes, its part of the ritualist detachment.


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drakerocket wrote:
So quick scenario: 20 strong alpha legion possessed unit, starts off the game with a nurgle tree by them. 40 wounds guarded by -1 to hit 1+ saves. Even if you lose first turn that will be hard to shift. Starting on your turn give them another -1 to be hit from a nurgle spell, -1 to be hit from dark apostate....now they are immune to 4+ shooting and 3+ shooting hits them on 6s....

So now you have what makes all of the rest of it make sense: a walking wall of nearly invincible meat. Now you can foot slog all of those support characters behind them.

I found it. Its on page 40. From there on, quite a few posts discussed this possessed concept.

Ok, sorry, didn't read that far back, thanks

drakerocket wrote:
So I guess now we can give a unit of possessed another +1 strength and attack from a strategem. So now they get 5 base, +1 herald, +1 strategeum, +1 g. possessed.

So like, now they are all strength 8 O.o;; I feel like all of this kind of misses the point in some ways; their issues are mobility and durability, neither of which are getting fixed.

So with all buffs they are what....reroll 1s to hit and wound, 2-4 attacks per round with a reroll (so let's say average 3.5), strength 8, ap -2, 1 damage, inflict a mortal wound on wounds of 6s. They'll also probably get either the slaanesh or the nurgle locus, so another bonus wound on 6s or advance/charge.

I dunno, I'm starting to think that maybe they are almost worth it? Pair it with a tree so they get 1+ saves round one? I dunno, probably still wishful thinking, but they are really pumping up those stats >.>

Opps, actually, the discussion started on page 37 lol


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This was before we knew about the new prayer that the DA would have that gives a -1 to hit.


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So, the thought was to go Alpha legion with the possessed, use forward operatives to scout move them forward 9 inches. And then stack all the buffs you can on them, including using daemon heralds so that they would be an unkillable monster unit in combat. They are probably the unit that can have the most buffs stacked on.

Reason: they are Legion, daemon, infantry. You can also use the black legion strategem Chosen of the Pantheon to give them all 4 marks until the start of your next turn. This makes it possible to stack all 4 Khorne, slanaash, tzeenth, nurgle herald aura's on them. Plus whatever relics auras on them. You can use all 4 mark strategems on them (from the CSM codex).
the Darmonkin ritualist detachment works for them, the strategem to give them +1 Str, +1 Attack also works on them.

I didn't try and find out what kind of monstrosity level you can buff them to if you use Chosen of the Pantheon and go for the limit. But its probably pretty ridiculous. lol But it would probably require almost your entire army to do it... If you didn't go multi mark herald in your daemon detachment, then your daemon herald can get the Loci. And the aura of that loci will also affect possessed. So, like for example, Khone loci can gives possessed reroll charge, slanaash loci can give possessed advance and charge. I think you can make them -3 to hit, invul save of 3++, then str 8 or higher (depending on how you want to abuse chosen of the pantheon). Can have slanaash cast the psychic on them to fight again while within 1 inch, can use the khorne stragem fury of khorne to fight again also. Mercilous fighers for another +1 attack if they outnumber, the ritualist strategem... etc etc.

It's about 1k if my math is right. 2 sorcs, MoP, DA, bloodmaster with crown, another herald, greater possessed and 20 BL possessed.

40 T4 wounds at 3++/5+++, -2 to be hit, moving 14", hitting on 2s at S8, MWs and exploding attacks on 6s to wound, regaining 2d3 wounds a turn


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Read through the discussion you pointed out and didn't see this idea though... Seems like a solid anchor with enough points left for a Corsairs battalion and some daemons

TankCmdr wrote:
It's about 1k if my math is right. 2 sorcs, MoP, DA, bloodmaster with crown, another herald, greater possessed and 20 BL possessed.

40 T4 wounds at 3++/5+++, -2 to be hit, moving 14", hitting on 2s at S8, MWs and exploding attacks on 6s to wound, regaining 2d3 wounds a turn


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Read through the discussion you pointed out and didn't see this idea though... Seems like a solid anchor with enough points left for a Corsairs battalion and some daemons

936pts? really? for a unit heavily rely on characters (watch out assassins) and psy powers, usually charge some screens then did, no ty, at least for me

 blackmage wrote:

TankCmdr wrote:
It's about 1k if my math is right. 2 sorcs, MoP, DA, bloodmaster with crown, another herald, greater possessed and 20 BL possessed.

40 T4 wounds at 3++/5+++, -2 to be hit, moving 14", hitting on 2s at S8, MWs and exploding attacks on 6s to wound, regaining 2d3 wounds a turn


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Read through the discussion you pointed out and didn't see this idea though... Seems like a solid anchor with enough points left for a Corsairs battalion and some daemons

936pts? really? for a unit heavily rely on characters (watch out assassins) and psy powers, usually charge some screens then did, no ty, at least for me

Yes, there are mitigating factors, no doubt. As I said, I don't normally play chaos and was asking for constructive feedback. I usually play guard, most of my units rely on at least two characters lol. Just thought this looked like a fun combo that could be easily fleshed out into an rc battalion and bl vanguard, with enough left over for some daemons or TS or something

 tinfoil wrote:
To accomplish the last part of the plan (flinging the Defiler into assault after it has advanced) you'll have to Soulforge the detachment you draw the Defiler from (presumably a Battalion). And probably may as well Soulforge the Supreme Command detachment as well? -- to increase the threat range of the Lord Discordant.
edit: nope, can't have either the sorcerer or the MoP in a Soulforged detachment. So, stash the Lord Discordant in with a clutch of daemon engines for the Heavy detachment, and craft a battalion with your sorcerer on disk and your MoP as hq elements, and fill in with cultists as troops (sacrificing when necessary to nourish your daemon engines as they take wounds).

I think you can turn any detachment into the Soulforged Pack Specialist Detachment, its just that only Warpsmiths and Daemon Engines gain the associated keyword.
"Use this Stratagem when choosing your army. Pick a Chaos Space Marine Detachment from your army to be a Soulforged Pack Specialist Detachment. WARPSMITH and DAEMON ENGINE units in that Detachment gain the SOULFORGED PACK keyword."

Either way, I agree the best choice would be the Lord Discordant with all the Daemon Engines for value's sake. I hadn't actually considered taking extra cultists as Sacrifice fodder, it sounds interesting but the only worry I'd have there is making sure the MoP could keep up with anything to use it consistently - only having a 6" move is a bummer for sure.

Ah ha. I think you must be right.

 Total wrote:

 tinfoil wrote:
To accomplish the last part of the plan (flinging the Defiler into assault after it has advanced) you'll have to Soulforge the detachment you draw the Defiler from (presumably a Battalion). And probably may as well Soulforge the Supreme Command detachment as well? -- to increase the threat range of the Lord Discordant.
edit: nope, can't have either the sorcerer or the MoP in a Soulforged detachment. So, stash the Lord Discordant in with a clutch of daemon engines for the Heavy detachment, and craft a battalion with your sorcerer on disk and your MoP as hq elements, and fill in with cultists as troops (sacrificing when necessary to nourish your daemon engines as they take wounds).

I think you can turn any detachment into the Soulforged Pack Specialist Detachment, its just that only Warpsmiths and Daemon Engines gain the associated keyword.
"Use this Stratagem when choosing your army. Pick a Chaos Space Marine Detachment from your army to be a Soulforged Pack Specialist Detachment. WARPSMITH and DAEMON ENGINE units in that Detachment gain the SOULFORGED PACK keyword."

Either way, I agree the best choice would be the Lord Discordant with all the Daemon Engines for value's sake. I hadn't actually considered taking extra cultists as Sacrifice fodder, it sounds interesting but the only worry I'd have there is making sure the MoP could keep up with anything to use it consistently - only having a 6" move is a bummer for sure.

The issue with the MoP keeping up can be somewhat mitigated if you're open to making the detachment Brazen Beasts: give him the relic armour that grants an extra inch of movement and always advance him. You could also give him the Arch-Sorceror WL trait and cast Warptime on himself.

TankCmdr wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

TankCmdr wrote:
It's about 1k if my math is right. 2 sorcs, MoP, DA, bloodmaster with crown, another herald, greater possessed and 20 BL possessed.

40 T4 wounds at 3++/5+++, -2 to be hit, moving 14", hitting on 2s at S8, MWs and exploding attacks on 6s to wound, regaining 2d3 wounds a turn


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Read through the discussion you pointed out and didn't see this idea though... Seems like a solid anchor with enough points left for a Corsairs battalion and some daemons

936pts? really? for a unit heavily rely on characters (watch out assassins) and psy powers, usually charge some screens then did, no ty, at least for me

Yes, there are mitigating factors, no doubt. As I said, I don't normally play chaos and was asking for constructive feedback. I usually play guard, most of my units rely on at least two characters lol. Just thought this looked like a fun combo that could be easily fleshed out into an rc battalion and bl vanguard, with enough left over for some daemons or TS or something

yes the combo could be powerful but rely on too much on powers you can fail or be countered and lot of characters needed, a single vindicare can crush it, then anyway sure is a fun thing to try.

5 more possessed to build...15 done today. Plan on running emperors children possessed, either a giant unit of 20 or two units of 10, along with greater possessed backed up by noise marines and daemons. No idea how it will perform, but I think they'll do nicely in my local meta.

Just beat Ultramarines + Celestine with Slaaneshi Word Bearers + Nurgle Daemons.

Maelstrom, table quarters deployment. Drew some good tactical objectives early, got most of my army killed doing it but it drew a load of units together. After that, Celestine, the Geminae, and two squads were all next to a nearly dead Venerable Dreadnought; I cast Possession with MoP and charged in, popping the Dreadnought and killing loads more. That speedbumped her so much I decided to taunt by throwing a CP at Boon. Rolled a 6 so threw another CP at rerolling the other dice. Didn’t get Apotheosis, but it was an excellent psych out that drew her in to focus on the MoP and not establish board control. Won 14-9

 lindsay40k wrote:
Just beat Ultramarines + Celestine with Slaaneshi Word Bearers + Nurgle Daemons.

Maelstrom, table quarters deployment. Drew some good tactical objectives early, got most of my army killed doing it but it drew a load of units together. After that, Celestine, the Geminae, and two squads were all next to a nearly dead Venerable Dreadnought; I cast Possession with MoP and charged in, popping the Dreadnought and killing loads more. That speedbumped her so much I decided to taunt by throwing a CP at Boon. Rolled a 6 so threw another CP at rerolling the other dice. Didn’t get Apotheosis, but it was an excellent psych out that drew her in to focus on the MoP and not establish board control. Won 14-9

God job! Think you will modify your list in any way?

Oh, totally, this was just stuff that happened to be to hand and easily packed. Epidemius was nothing more than a backfield scarecrow - kept her deepstrikers from planting a flag in my DZ, but for all my criticisms of it a new DA could have done the same and also given the NMs longevity. I took Possession because it’s a campaign game and I’m trying to create spectacles like an Apotheosis, competitively I don’t think I’d even bother with MoP in this list as he had no synergies.

If I’d had a Flying Slaaneshi DP, I’d have took it to replace MoP and my Lord on Steed in a flash, taking Elixir & Voice of Lorgar & Warptime. If Priority Orders come in - easily possible, we nearly got to the bottom of the TO deck - I want my Warlord to be able to get a solid touchdown, and return to the front line if they have to run backwards.

Not sure how budgetable it’d be, but if there were enough points left over I’d probably switch Epidemius for a DP, too. Or go full Slaanesh Daemonkin by replacing the Daemons altogether with KoS, Herald on Steed, and Fiends.

It wasn’t a very big game, so I’d also add some Cultists and Heretac Chaingun teams for CP.

Alpgha Legion posessed are pretty nice all in themselves with nurgle, though - with Sorc, MoP and DA buffs they are -3 to hit, meaning guardsmen can't hit you at all and marines hit you only on sixes. Herald buffs are nice, but the price hikes really fast and really high. May be even toss in Fabius for that extra oomph.

I was thinking of making a squad of 5 chosen with plasma pistol + Lightning claws as I've always loved the loadout in past editions.

Any thoughts on if that would be good though? Semi competitive at best as I want a sneaky little 5 man squad to not look too threatening but have a lot of bite when it arrives.

Nobody would fall to that, and it wouldn't be that deadly either.
Can't recommend.

So in 8th you can move after disembarking.

Can't you move out of a kharibdys ?

I think the kharibdyss being in 9" and you being able to disembark 6" from the enemy and charge with rerolls is enough, but you never know.

Might've been mentioned but the new Battlescribe data has Oblits as 65pts per pop.

I know the new Chaos book had them as this but assumed that was due to a direct cut and paste from the old edition.

I'm not putting any credit into this but it's sparked a faint glimmer of hope that they'll actually be 65pts. Suppose we just have to wait for the FAQ.

 lare2 wrote:
Might've been mentioned but the new Battlescribe data has Oblits as 65pts per pop.

I know the new Chaos book had them as this but assumed that was due to a direct cut and paste from the old edition.

I'm not putting any credit into this but it's sparked a faint glimmer of hope that they'll actually be 65pts. Suppose we just have to wait for the FAQ.

Until the FAQ comes out it is indeed correct to play them as 65 pts per raw.
For the sake of your social standing in your gaming group i would not reccomend it however, mostly due to GW admitting they fethed up there........

Not Online!!! wrote:

 lare2 wrote:
Might've been mentioned but the new Battlescribe data has Oblits as 65pts per pop.

I know the new Chaos book had them as this but assumed that was due to a direct cut and paste from the old edition.

I'm not putting any credit into this but it's sparked a faint glimmer of hope that they'll actually be 65pts. Suppose we just have to wait for the FAQ.

Until the FAQ comes out it is indeed correct to play them as 65 pts per raw.
For the sake of your social standing in your gaming group i would not reccomend it however, mostly due to GW admitting they fethed up there........

Oh aye, there's no way I'd run them as 65pts. Still though... here's hoping they messed up Shadowspear rather than the codex.

 lare2 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 lare2 wrote:
Might've been mentioned but the new Battlescribe data has Oblits as 65pts per pop.

I know the new Chaos book had them as this but assumed that was due to a direct cut and paste from the old edition.

I'm not putting any credit into this but it's sparked a faint glimmer of hope that they'll actually be 65pts. Suppose we just have to wait for the FAQ.

Until the FAQ comes out it is indeed correct to play them as 65 pts per raw.
For the sake of your social standing in your gaming group i would not reccomend it however, mostly due to GW admitting they fethed up there........

Oh aye, there's no way I'd run them as 65pts. Still though... here's hoping they messed up Shadowspear rather than the codex.

Optimistic, they want to sell Havocs first since less players allready have havocs unlike oblits.

Atleast that is how i rationalized it.

Frankly i hope they will be around 100 pts a pop. (probably slightly less but i feel like this would be better)

Hi Guys,

Seeing all the new CSM models has made me want to go back to my original army (from a long long time ago).

I've been playing around with battlescribe and reading so tactica and am almost ready to start buying models... but I'd like to see what people think of the general idea.

I'm thinking Alpha legion at the moment, mainly because I like their colour scheme, bonus and fluff a bit more than emperors children (pink is a bit of a deal breaker).

I definitely want to run a DP, I'd stick the elixir on him and have him as my WL. Possibly with the Aplha WL trait.

Troops CSM min squads with a ML.

I'm liking the idea of having a 10 man termi squad with combi plasma - is this really a good idea? Is this outclassed now by other options?
Termi sorcerer to back them up (12 points more than a regular one seems like a good idea to me)

1-2 squads of Bikers with combi-bolters for moving up the board quickly and screen clearing.

2 havok squads, one with LCs and MLs and another with the chain guns. (possibly using alpha strat to how chain guns back t1)

The trying to figure out the best way of getting beserkers into the list - was looking at having a world eaters Bat with 1-2 squads, and some cultists for screening, and a rhino or 2 to ferry them around. And for hq having a lord and exlt champ with murder sword with them.

That's the plan so far.. not massively keen on the berserker models, but having mained orks I really like a fighty unit which can steamroll through the enemy lines.

Is there anything that I am missing which is an auto include? Or any major mistake? I'm assuming Alpha legion is a decent choice?

TankCmdr wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

TankCmdr wrote:
It's about 1k if my math is right. 2 sorcs, MoP, DA, bloodmaster with crown, another herald, greater possessed and 20 BL possessed.

40 T4 wounds at 3++/5+++, -2 to be hit, moving 14", hitting on 2s at S8, MWs and exploding attacks on 6s to wound, regaining 2d3 wounds a turn


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Read through the discussion you pointed out and didn't see this idea though... Seems like a solid anchor with enough points left for a Corsairs battalion and some daemons

936pts? really? for a unit heavily rely on characters (watch out assassins) and psy powers, usually charge some screens then did, no ty, at least for me

Yes, there are mitigating factors, no doubt. As I said, I don't normally play chaos and was asking for constructive feedback. I usually play guard, most of my units rely on at least two characters lol. Just thought this looked like a fun combo that could be easily fleshed out into an rc battalion and bl vanguard, with enough left over for some daemons or TS or something

Yea but I play guard too and it's not that hard to deconstruct. Guard have bulgryn that can get their saves below zero and have hit mods as well. Thats one of the best combat bombs out there still. It requires less points in buffing characters too.

I think that's the biggest factor here, the buffs are all really nice that we just got, but you can't take all of them without over inflating your investment. At some point it would be better to just take a second unit of possessed and rely on less powers. In a standard game your never getting all those powers off. You will fail a few and they could deny a crucial one, then it's game over. That doesn't require much on their part to counter. Possessed still lack fly and/or ranged attacks, so you can make each one hit like abbadon, I don't care, I'll just movement block you with fliers or some other cheap scout. Any unit that can be completely mitigated by your opponents movement had better not cost you half your armies points.

Hi Guys,

Seeing all the new CSM models has made me want to go back to my original army (from a long long time ago).

I've been playing around with battlescribe and reading so tactica and am almost ready to start buying models... but I'd like to see what people think of the general idea.

I'm thinking Alpha legion at the moment, mainly because I like their colour scheme, bonus and fluff a bit more than emperors children (pink is a bit of a deal breaker).

Whilest pink is a favourite, you don't really need to use just pink but really gaudy combination, see that one event miniature. AL is a good choice though aswell.

I definitely want to run a DP, I'd stick the elixir on him and have him as my WL. Possibly with the Aplha WL trait.

Troops CSM min squads with a ML.

Why not, cultists might be cheaper and more fluffy for AL and Missile launchers are a bit expensive, if you still prefer CSM over cultists though, i'd go with an Autocannon instead.

I'm liking the idea of having a 10 man termi squad with combi plasma - is this really a good idea? Is this outclassed now by other options?
Termi sorcerer to back them up (12 points more than a regular one seems like a good idea to me)

Ok positives first, CSM terminators can take Chainaxes, this makes them Cheaper then other Terminator options, bad news, as stated above, the squad is anything but points efficent still. (I would also pick a Lord over a sorcerer for the reroll 1's aura)

1-2 squads of Bikers with combi-bolters for moving up the board quickly and screen clearing.

Probably better to pick chosen though.

2 havok squads, one with LCs and MLs and another with the chain guns. (possibly using alpha strat to how chain guns back t1)

Again I would prefer AC over Missile launchers due to reasons above especcially in regards to points.

The trying to figure out the best way of getting beserkers into the list - was looking at having a world eaters Bat with 1-2 squads, and some cultists for screening, and a rhino or 2 to ferry them around. And for hq having a lord and exlt champ with murder sword with them.

That's the plan so far.. not massively keen on the berserker models, but having mained orks I really like a fighty unit which can steamroll through the enemy lines.

Is there anything that I am missing which is an auto include? Or any major mistake? I'm assuming Alpha legion is a decent choice?

Berserkers could be made into red corsairs for advance and charge, add a sorcerer with warptime, and another psy power and profit from that .
Frankly if you want to field this list competitively get rid of the terminators.
More DA's, a CP battery of the red corsairs brand and obliterators (jury still not sure about them due to the high cost of buffs)

I wouldn't say chosen are better then bikes personally.

71pts gets you 3 bikes with a double combi champ, thats 6 T5 wounds moving 14" and firing 16 shots full effect out to 24".

80pts for 5 chosen with combis only gets you 4 more shots if your standing still or within 12" otherwise they drop off to 6 less shots. The 3 bikes also have one more wound, and with each wound they take they lose less firepower.

The bikes can also take specials and retain their combi bolter.

Thanks for the quick replies!

I'll try removing the MLs from the list and see what that does for points, I'm definitely a fan of having a heavy weapon in each squad.

The reason I'm not really going for more cultists is that after painting around 200 orks I want to keep the model count somewhat under control(!)

That's a shame about the terminators.. I may still pick them up as I am nostalgic about the models, but I get that it's a huge points investment. I was thinking the investment was mitigated a bit by being able to fire twice, and potentially safely overcharged with the right psychic power.

On the flip side dropping them would free up a lot of points for other models. In terms of dealing with knights, do we have anything comparable that can deliver a reliable sucker punch?

I really like bikes, the 14" move can really get them where you need them, and the beta bolters rules are a decent buff, I think I'd take them in any type of SM list at the moment personally.

There is a reason why you don't want to only focus on the points per damage of a unit. Mobility and durability are at least as important and often more important. Terminators are actually solid. Depends more on the list and your play style.

Klone12 wrote:
So in 8th you can move after disembarking.

Can't you move out of a kharibdys ?

I think the kharibdyss being in 9" and you being able to disembark 6" from the enemy and charge with rerolls is enough, but you never know.

Not sure what you’re asking here, so I’ll provide a few answers -

Kharybdis arrives from orbit carrying passengers: place KAC over 9” away from enemies, then disembark passengers (whether you want to or not - this is specified in KAC Datasheet’s textwall) both within 3” of KAC and also over 9” away from enemies (KAC Datasheet); none of the above can take a move this turn (all of the above is resolved ‘at the end of the movement phase’), be it in the movement phase or via Warptime (CSM FAQ) but all are allowed to attempt charges

Kharybdis starts turn carrying passengers and also within 9” of enemies: passengers choose whether or not to disembark, if they do so then they are placed both within 3” of KAC and also over 1” away from enemies, then make a normal move; KAC may move 15”; all of the above may be Warptimed, charge, ect

Minor note - eligible passengers can board the KAC before or after it moves. There’s some pretty preposterous stuff you can do with fast transports, though I doubt most of it is especially useful


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Further note - DA hit modifier prayer gives a deployed KAC an interesting longevity. Rendezvous with a Warptimer, throw it into the middle of the enemy army full of Berzerkers, flame out, declare charges against EVERYONE, get killed by Overwatch, Berzerkers rev up and go nuts

Omg you could stack two DA’s to give it -1 to be hit and a 5++, if you lose first turn and KAC survives nearly dead they board with disciples and EC and fly over, KAC commits suicide by Overwatch, now you’ve got Berzerkers with 5++ and -1 to be hit right in the enemy’s face

...not impossible to co-ordinate with a Fiends of Slaanesh pincer movement to make the enemy’s screening unit unable to run away from twenty angry Berzerkers and a bunch of beatsticks

Any decent builds for abaddon black legion?? Thinking of Abaddon and 10 terminators with some oblits, havocs etc.