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Azuza001 wrote:
I think the trick with all this new stuff is going to be finding the perfect balance between taking what we need to win, taking what we want to play with, and figuring out what units can cover both areas well.

Myself its going to be large squads of black legion marines, a red corsair detachment, and what mix of deamon engines / deamon support hq's we can fit into 2000 pts which seems like its going to be pretty hard to pull off. As much as i love the new endless waves of chaos marines with red corsairs i dont see that becoming a real thing in my lists simply because i like my large 20 man black legion blob with abby, do not underestimate 20 bolters in rapid fire rerolling all hits, with vets of the long war and double shooting. Is it the premier option for all those cp? Hell no. But it can catch your opponent off guard when these guys suddenly fire 80 shots and wipe the chaff from the field in front of them

I need to ask about your experience, since you tried him out like that.

In your experience, did Abby do enough footslogging up? Did you move advance him first turn, maybe even second ?
Also, you did the 20 man CSM but without any other weapons on them. So that 20 man blob was underestimated? Wouldn't they have been even more effective at clearing screens if you equipped that blob with 2 chain cannons (since you have Abby there to give them rerolls to hit anyways)? You didn't even give the champ a combi bolter. Not enough points? Or you really wanted the 20 man blob to look harmless.

I noticed your list put 2 plasma on the other two squads instead. Why? And was it a subtle way to try and make the other two squads a bigger target than your 20 man blob? Did it work? Did you overcharge them often, since you had Abby around? Were they targeted?

I actually really really love your list. It has a LOS in it, and Abby in it as well. And its a total black legion list too. (which mine is painted is as well). How cool is that!


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Azuza001 wrote:
I like the idea of the dark apostle putting out a 5++ to protect predators and rhinos t1. Also regular marines (or anything without an invunerable honestly like just cultists) can be very good with a 5++ from him then a sorcerer popping weaver to boost it to a 4++ save squad wide. Bikers that don't need to move fast and can work as a mobile, tough, gun line? Yeah, thats cool.

Hmmm, I think only models within the 6 inches of the DA's aura would get the 5++ based on how I read that prayer. Its still doable, but it kinda restricts how much you can cram around him because it says models, not units. lol Why Rhinos and predators? Would you expect to move your predators in tight proximity to him? Same for any squad or unit that you want to benefit from his 5++ aura.

Have a question here to shooting as well. Say we have a squad of 10 CSM, but only 2 models are in this priest's 5++ bubble. Opponent shoots at this squad with a plasma gun. Can we opt to take the plasma hits on the 2 models in the squad which have the 5++ ?

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
I think the trick with all this new stuff is going to be finding the perfect balance between taking what we need to win, taking what we want to play with, and figuring out what units can cover both areas well.

Myself its going to be large squads of black legion marines, a red corsair detachment, and what mix of deamon engines / deamon support hq's we can fit into 2000 pts which seems like its going to be pretty hard to pull off. As much as i love the new endless waves of chaos marines with red corsairs i dont see that becoming a real thing in my lists simply because i like my large 20 man black legion blob with abby, do not underestimate 20 bolters in rapid fire rerolling all hits, with vets of the long war and double shooting. Is it the premier option for all those cp? Hell no. But it can catch your opponent off guard when these guys suddenly fire 80 shots and wipe the chaff from the field in front of them

I need to ask about your experience, since you tried him out like that.

In your experience, did Abby do enough footslogging up? Did you move advance him first turn, maybe even second ?
Also, you did the 20 man CSM but without any other weapons on them. So that 20 man blob was underestimated? Wouldn't they have been even more effective at clearing screens if you equipped that blob with 2 chain cannons (since you have Abby there to give them rerolls to hit anyways)? You didn't even give the champ a combi bolter. Not enough points? Or you really wanted the 20 man blob to look harmless.

I noticed your list put 2 plasma on the other two squads instead. Why? And was it a subtle way to try and make the other two squads a bigger target than your 20 man blob? Did it work? Did you overcharge them often, since you had Abby around? Were they targeted?

I actually really really love your list. It has a LOS in it, and Abby in it as well. And its a total black legion list too. (which mine is painted is as well). How cool is that!

Belive it or not things worked really well on my list. The thought process was i really wanted the 20 guys to look harmless but also look like a pain in the ass to deal with so people would ignore them. I cast delightful agonies onto them so they had the 5+++ on top of the 3+. Turn 1 everyone advanced, both 10 man, the 20 man blob, the term sorc and abby. The goal was to get into that sweet spot 24" range t1 as quick as possible. If needed i could warp time them as well giving them an average of 20" movement t1. I made sure to keep them within 12" for the fearless bubble but didnt care about the rerolls.

This led to my opponents focusing on the 2 squads of plasma all my games. Most games they killed 1 off and would bring the other down to 3 or 4 guys. Just as planned! So t2 i had a 20 man bolter team completely unharmed sitting there within 24" of the chaff. Abby and the others go to one flank side (but still stay within 12") to work with the defilers keeping them with rerolls and the bolter marines unload.

1cp for let the galaxy burn (full rerolls, yes please), 1cp for vets of the long war, and 2cp for endless canophy. That was 80 shots hitting on 3's, full rerolls, wounding most things on 4's or 3's (t6 you say? How cute), and not giving any crap about invulnerable saves because ap0. They wiped things dead. By the time my opponents realized their mistakes it was too late. Continue to focus on the lord of skulls rampaging with a dark apostle? Or try and wittle the 20 man blob of bolter fire thats able to put out so much pain? Also abby is there so if they try and move in for cc he would also move to cut them off with any defilers left (normally 1 died by this point, but they were a distraction at best in my games).

I love infantry, and i find in this edition shooting is more effective than cc (though a cc scalpel can do more damage than a sledge hammer approach) as well as mobility wins games.

I do plan on putting together some 5 man red corsair teams with the gattling cannons to go with my black legion. I think they will be a very good value for their cost. I would love to do 2 5 man and a 20 man red corsair to go with my two 10 man / one 20 man black legion and 30 cultists. So many bodies.... hide deamon princes and abby behind all that and you have one scarry bolter line that has cc that will jump out t2/3 to crush anything the bolters cant.

Now keep in mind I am just a local gamer with a local meta to deal with. I dont go to lvo or anything like that. But its working very good here so far. If the 5++ invulnerable save apostle prayer wasnt models within 6" of him i would look at that, but at this point its not worth trying to get a large blob in there. But if you use the -1 to hit on the cultists, put the 5+++ on the squad of black legion, and then let the red corsairs get shot because they will just come back.... awesome...


Edit

I think you should be able to get at least 2 predators wholy within 6" of him. Preds have an issue of getting shot off the table before they can do anything in my meta. But a 2+/5++ pred squad... thats probably not going anywhere t1 before you get a chance to use them.

Cool, thanks for sharing your experiences and your thinking!

I would consider using the Noctilith Crown if I really wanted to buff stuff like Predator tanks. Because these don't usually move much anyway. The Noctilith crown is huge so you can spread out more. You could probably easily fit 2 to 3 shooty hellbrutes, 3 predator tanks all around the Crown. And the crown is the same cost as a DA lol. Its an impressive fortification too.

Ok, I don't understand this. I was flipping the new codex idly and I noticed that Alpha legions operatives is back to its original form. Where they go into concealment before the 1st battle round starts and are then revealed 9 inches away from the enemy. At this point, they have so many FAQ about coming in within 9 inches away from opponent on the first turn I really don't even know what is what anymore. I was under the impression that forward operatives is now a scout move forward per the latest FAQ. So, is it still a scout move forward, or is it what I am reading in the new codex right now again? (confused).

Forward ops still sucks. It's just left intact for non matched play purposes.

Model's don't need to be "wholly within" 6" of the DA to get a 5++, only "within" 6", so it's the same as with most other auras.

The new DA and how he works/picks his prayers is so similar to a Sorcerer and psychic powers (except his powers can't get denied, and he can't deny in turn) and that's how I'll view him.

A good pick in most lists, but far from an auto-include.
Giving -1 to get hit on a unit seems amazing, but you're also paying 100 pts for the privilege. It might not always be worth it.

Yeah, but if you have a squad with only one or two models out of ten which are within 6 inches of the DA. Then what happens when only 2 models in your army have the 5++ ? Can you "choose" to take wounds on those two with the 5++ instead of others?

On forward operatives. They took a cool strategem and changed it so much with faq, and then now they put in the same words again as the original, until I honestly don't know how it should be played anymore. And this is a pity because if you are playing Alpha legion, its your legion specific strategem. Nobody likes to say their legion specific strategem has been overriden by so many faqs and rules they fear to even play it anymore.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Yeah, but if you have a squad with only one or two models out of ten which are within 6 inches of the DA. Then what happens when only 2 models in your army have the 5++ ? Can you "choose" to take wounds on those two with the 5++ instead of others?

The squad is considered to be "within" 6", so the entire squad would have a 5++.

If you remove those 2 who are within 6" as casualties however, the remaining squadmembers will loose the 5++ due to no longer being within 6".

So don't do that.

 MinscS2 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Yeah, but if you have a squad with only one or two models out of ten which are within 6 inches of the DA. Then what happens when only 2 models in your army have the 5++ ? Can you "choose" to take wounds on those two with the 5++ instead of others?

The squad is considered to be "within" 6", so the entire squad would have a 5++.

If you remove those 2 who are within 6" as casualties however, the remaining squadmembers will loose the 5++ due to no longer being within 6".

So don't do that.

Huh, is that the way it works? I think the model having a 5++ (as per the prayer wording) is very different from the whole unit getting a 5++ just because one of its models happens to be within 6 inches of the Priest. If they meant for it to be unit, they would have used the word unit, rather than model.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
On forward operatives. They took a cool strategem and changed it so much with faq, and then now they put in the same words again as the original, until I honestly don't know how it should be played anymore. And this is a pity because if you are playing Alpha legion, its your legion specific strategem. Nobody likes to say their legion specific strategem has been overriden by so many faqs and rules they fear to even play it anymore.

Agreed. And worse they removed the cool factor for units that needed it to be internally competitive. Now it's mostly for screens and assaults. If your opponent doesn't counter it with something like scouts.. pretty lame.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Yeah, but if you have a squad with only one or two models out of ten which are within 6 inches of the DA. Then what happens when only 2 models in your army have the 5++ ? Can you "choose" to take wounds on those two with the 5++ instead of others?

The squad is considered to be "within" 6", so the entire squad would have a 5++.

If you remove those 2 who are within 6" as casualties however, the remaining squadmembers will loose the 5++ due to no longer being within 6".

So don't do that.

Huh, is that the way it works? I think the model having a 5++ (as per the prayer wording) is very different from the whole unit getting a 5++ just because one of its models happens to be within 6 inches of the Priest. If they meant for it to be unit, they would have used the word unit, rather than model.

Huh, you're right.
I'm so used to 8th Ed. auras using "units within" that I overlooked that it actually says "models within".

Strange, especially given how the +1 to hit and +1 to wound-prayers work (they affect units within, not models).

Typo or brainfart from GW? Neither would surprise me at this stage.

I guess the correct way to play it currently is that if you want to use the 5++ on a unit that's partially within, every failed IV would result in a dead model from those within 6", since they have different saves than the others.
It's basically the same as using units with mixed saves, i.e. Space Marine Veterans where a handful have Stormshields. If you use the 3++ and fail, then obviously a Stormshield dies and not a non-stormshield.

Suddenly that prayer got alot less interesting.
It's still decent for handing out 5++ to stuff like non-daemonic Vehicles (Helbrutes, Rhinos, Land Raiders, Predators and Vindicators), but it's appeal in a infantry-focused list more or less vanished.

Actually, for powerful auras, they have done this before. I believe that Dark Angels Azreal also provides a 4++ invul bubble, and its also worded similar to this. The protection is based on models within that bubble, not units.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Cool, thanks for sharing your experiences and your thinking!

I would consider using the Noctilith Crown if I really wanted to buff stuff like Predator tanks. Because these don't usually move much anyway. The Noctilith crown is huge so you can spread out more. You could probably easily fit 2 to 3 shooty hellbrutes, 3 predator tanks all around the Crown. And the crown is the same cost as a DA lol. Its an impressive fortification too.

Ok, I don't understand this. I was flipping the new codex idly and I noticed that Alpha legions operatives is back to its original form. Where they go into concealment before the 1st battle round starts and are then revealed 9 inches away from the enemy. At this point, they have so many FAQ about coming in within 9 inches away from opponent on the first turn I really don't even know what is what anymore. I was under the impression that forward operatives is now a scout move forward per the latest FAQ. So, is it still a scout move forward, or is it what I am reading in the new codex right now again? (confused).

No need to be confused.

The alpha stratagem is NOT "back to its original form" as it was, in fact, never changed.
It only changed in BETA RULES, as part of the strategic reserve change.
When and if stratagic reserves beta rules turn official (possibly next week as there is an FAQ coming)-then the alpha stratagem may (or may not) change to the scout move version.

Azuza001 wrote:
But that squad of 3+/5++/5+++ -1 to hit can be black legion....

I am assuming possessed w/ mark of slaanesh, a sorcerer casting delightful agonies, and an apostle praying for -1 to hit? And abby gives them reroll failed hits.

But, when I’ve got Huron and run them as Red Corsairs, I get re-roll 1’s and an additional 4CP and relic. Plus, I can then bring the squad back after it gets targeted.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hey, 50 damage looks like overkill. lol We can reduce the number of thunder hammers to lower the cost if we want to. lol. Maybe swop them for other stuff.

I just did a test for Abby. I don't think Abby will reliably kill a knight in one turn. But he would probably heavily hurt it. I haven't run the numbers, but its possible that WE can do this without needing prescience. Just have Kharn and exalted champ and VOTLW, which they tend to run with anyway. ok, heck lets do this:

22 hammer attacks = 11 hits + 5.86 hits (due to Kharn reroll) = 16.86 hits.
16.86 hits becomes 11.24 wounds + 3.74 (due to exalted champ reroll) = 14.99 wounds. (lets just take it as 15).
15 wounds, lets be generous and let the knight save 3, so left 12, which will each do 3 damage. So, yup, 36 damage goes through and smashes the knights to bits.

Cool, World Eaters can do this with just Kharn, and exalted lending their aura, and VOTLW. Don't even need prescience from a sorceror.

(I also just realised chosen come with bolters standard, so on their way to smashing a knight to bits, they can unleash a whole bunch of bolter shots before that too. Just don't bother shooting the knight, let the hammers deal with it!)

By the way, the new Abby has a huge base. Its like 65 mm in diameter or around 2.5 inches. This means that if you were to disembark him from a LR, you disembark up to 3 inch, his base diameter then stretches him out another 2.5 inches, and then he moves 6 inches. That means that he has a reach of 11.5 inches away from his LR before he even rolls his 2d6 charge... (average 7 inch). So, he has an average reach out from his LR of 18.5 inches. That's pretty far...


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NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Is there any way to "buy" additional Warlord Traits across legions? I really want to be able to give some casting buffs to a Sorcerer for Warp Time in my Flawless Host, while also having Confidence for the Prince.

You can use field commander strategem to make a hero in your specialist detachment have that specialist warlord trait. But its specific to that specialist detachment. So, for example, host raptorial affects all jump pack dudes in a detachment. So, you can then use field commander to make a jump pack sorceror in that detachment have warlord trait, but it has to be the host raptorial warlord trait (the one that gives you +2 charge).

Only black legion can give additional warlord traits to one DA and one sorceror using the strategem "council of traitors". But if I am not wrong, the DA and Sorceror should be within black legion.
.

Don't you need to place a model wholly within 3" when disembarking from a transport? Or am I horribly mistaken about that? Would be pretty good if he got a free 2.5" extra movement out if that, might give my Land Raider a new purpose because it's been collecting dust for far too long

What’s really making me doubt spending 100pts on a DA that can’t even use my WB Relic any more, nor fulfil his previous niche of riding with Berzerkers and giving them an aura buff as he disembarks (and, because it’s 8ed, them leaving a channel for him to charge through, and also a conga line in case he trips over his shoelaces on his charge), is the fact that he only gets one special prayer. And can’t even Familiar in a different one. He effectively gets mono-tasked with no versatility beyond choosing one specific buff or his old one. And you can forget his old front line brawling buff, because that’s just asking for pileins and pick-a-target spells to kill or separate his cheering section.

In the Space Wolves Index, Rune Priests get one psychic power and can cast one psychic power. Until the Codex came out, the only SW psyker I ever saw was Njal, because he knew and could cast more than one spell. I think a lot of the excitement over DA’s is new toy syndrome, and would not be surprised if Chaplains get rewritten to function like a DA but with far more versatility that will leave ours feeling distinctly underwhelming.

Don’t get me wrong, I like DA’s. I wanna use them. A backline-to-midfield role of praying that a single plane or horde or metal box doesn’t get shot really isn’t feeling appealing to me, whether or not it is efficient or reliable by current standards. The fact that only a third or so of the new prayers are even being discussed, for pretty restrictive purposes, feels sad. I can see myself using one to shroud a Possessed deathstar then giving them rerolls to hit when they make contact. I just know that, when he gets separated from his two handlers and then I have to consider spending my last CP rerolling a 2 to pray with a 33% chance of failing again, it’s going to feel like my old reliable zealot has been hamstrung by a load of clumsy moving parts - and paid 34pts for it. And that’s if, having been obliged to start the game on the board and patiently walk towards the enemy, he doesn’t get Vindicare’d on the first turn.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hey, 50 damage looks like overkill. lol We can reduce the number of thunder hammers to lower the cost if we want to. lol. Maybe swop them for other stuff.

I just did a test for Abby. I don't think Abby will reliably kill a knight in one turn. But he would probably heavily hurt it. I haven't run the numbers, but its possible that WE can do this without needing prescience. Just have Kharn and exalted champ and VOTLW, which they tend to run with anyway. ok, heck lets do this:

22 hammer attacks = 11 hits + 5.86 hits (due to Kharn reroll) = 16.86 hits.
16.86 hits becomes 11.24 wounds + 3.74 (due to exalted champ reroll) = 14.99 wounds. (lets just take it as 15).
15 wounds, lets be generous and let the knight save 3, so left 12, which will each do 3 damage. So, yup, 36 damage goes through and smashes the knights to bits.

Cool, World Eaters can do this with just Kharn, and exalted lending their aura, and VOTLW. Don't even need prescience from a sorceror.

Not that I want to rain on this particular parade, but how does the whole thing work out if half of the Chosen die to overwatch (I'm assuming they'll be the first unit to charge because re-roll + embarassment of characters dying to overwatch)? Doesn't a Castellan put out an ungodly amount of shots? Even twin heavy flamers could spoil your day if you're unlucky...

Snugiraffe wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hey, 50 damage looks like overkill. lol We can reduce the number of thunder hammers to lower the cost if we want to. lol. Maybe swop them for other stuff.

I just did a test for Abby. I don't think Abby will reliably kill a knight in one turn. But he would probably heavily hurt it. I haven't run the numbers, but its possible that WE can do this without needing prescience. Just have Kharn and exalted champ and VOTLW, which they tend to run with anyway. ok, heck lets do this:

22 hammer attacks = 11 hits + 5.86 hits (due to Kharn reroll) = 16.86 hits.
16.86 hits becomes 11.24 wounds + 3.74 (due to exalted champ reroll) = 14.99 wounds. (lets just take it as 15).
15 wounds, lets be generous and let the knight save 3, so left 12, which will each do 3 damage. So, yup, 36 damage goes through and smashes the knights to bits.

Cool, World Eaters can do this with just Kharn, and exalted lending their aura, and VOTLW. Don't even need prescience from a sorceror.

Not that I want to rain on this particular parade, but how does the whole thing work out if half of the Chosen die to overwatch (I'm assuming they'll be the first unit to charge because re-roll + embarassment of characters dying to overwatch)? Doesn't a Castellan put out an ungodly amount of shots? Even twin heavy flamers could spoil your day if you're unlucky...

If only we had like, 3 bikers for 70 points or something...

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Spoiler:

Snugiraffe wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hey, 50 damage looks like overkill. lol We can reduce the number of thunder hammers to lower the cost if we want to. lol. Maybe swop them for other stuff.

I just did a test for Abby. I don't think Abby will reliably kill a knight in one turn. But he would probably heavily hurt it. I haven't run the numbers, but its possible that WE can do this without needing prescience. Just have Kharn and exalted champ and VOTLW, which they tend to run with anyway. ok, heck lets do this:

22 hammer attacks = 11 hits + 5.86 hits (due to Kharn reroll) = 16.86 hits.
16.86 hits becomes 11.24 wounds + 3.74 (due to exalted champ reroll) = 14.99 wounds. (lets just take it as 15).
15 wounds, lets be generous and let the knight save 3, so left 12, which will each do 3 damage. So, yup, 36 damage goes through and smashes the knights to bits.

Cool, World Eaters can do this with just Kharn, and exalted lending their aura, and VOTLW. Don't even need prescience from a sorceror.

Not that I want to rain on this particular parade, but how does the whole thing work out if half of the Chosen die to overwatch (I'm assuming they'll be the first unit to charge because re-roll + embarassment of characters dying to overwatch)? Doesn't a Castellan put out an ungodly amount of shots? Even twin heavy flamers could spoil your day if you're unlucky...

If only we had like, 3 bikers for 70 points or something...

Touché! The point still remains that we're looking at the whole scenario in a bit of a vacuum.
All that aside, I like the idea a lot. But I'm not going to find the time to model 7 Chosen with thunder hammers in the near future.


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Am I reading it right that you get the specialist detachment relic for every specialist detachment in addition to the Chaos Codex artefact entirely for free, without having to use the Gifts of Chaos strat?
Edit: No. I am reading that wrong. Nothing to see here, folks.

@Pandabear, It doesn't say "wholly". That word is not there. So, I assume as long as a part of your base is within 3 inches, then that's fine? Someone correct me if I am wrong. Ordinarily, it wouldn't make much of a difference because infantry bases aren't very big anyway. But Abaddon has a huge base, so it does make a difference. In any case, a LR is hideously expensive. So, if Abaddon gets some clear reach benefits from disembarking from it, I wouldn't mind. That LR is nearly 300 points. Using it as a glorified transport simply because Abby cannot ride in a Rhino is still a bit much... (Of course, after Abby disembarks, it can then hang around and start shooting stuff up... but until then)... Honestly, if not for it being so much more resilient than a Rhino, and the fact that Abby cannot ride in one, I would never consider the LR... lol

And on the point about the Chosen facing overcharge. Yup, overcharge from a Castellan would be dangerous. So, charge it with the Rhino they just conveniently disembarked from, which can move 12 inches and charge the Castellan bravely, absorbing any overwatch. And the Chosen can follow in after that.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

And on the point about the Chosen facing overcharge. Yup, overcharge from a Castellan would be dangerous. So, charge it with the Rhino they just conveniently disembarked from, which can move 12 inches and charge the Castellan bravely, absorbing any overwatch. And the Chosen can follow in after that.

Nice! And shows me that I shouldn't get involved in these discussions when I've only slept four hours the night before.
*rubs eyes sleepily* "Wha? Where did that Rhino come from all of a sudden??"

Azuza001 wrote:
I like the idea of the dark apostle putting out a 5++ to protect predators and rhinos t1. Also regular marines (or anything without an invunerable honestly like just cultists) can be very good with a 5++ from him then a sorcerer popping weaver to boost it to a 4++ save squad wide. Bikers that don't need to move fast and can work as a mobile, tough, gun line? Yeah, thats cool.

The noctolith crown is the exact same price (less factoring disciples) and does exactly that already. You need a spare detachment, but that generally is not that big a deal for us.


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Abby having a new larger base is such a low key buff. It not only makes his threat range for assault bigger in all directions, but it also extends his aura.

I understand the crown is the same cost. But its also immobile. It cant move or do anything else. Its also targetable, which could come up. Finally its also not an hq as you mentioned its a fortification. I find i use all 3 detachments in my list currently (2 csm and 1 deamon) so i dont have a 4th one lying around.

I am not saying you couldnt use the crown, its more reliable for sure for the same cost. But once again its a new model, some people dont have it yet but already have a dark apostle. So there is that to consider as well.

Azuza001 wrote:
I understand the crown is the same cost. But its also immobile. It cant move or do anything else. Its also targetable, which could come up. Finally its also not an hq as you mentioned its a fortification. I find i use all 3 detachments in my list currently (2 csm and 1 deamon) so i dont have a 4th one lying around.

I am not saying you couldnt use the crown, its more reliable for sure for the same cost. But once again its a new model, some people dont have it yet but already have a dark apostle. So there is that to consider as well.

It is a good Psyker annoyance though, which the DA isn't, that said, there is also the option to get a R&H coven which is even better at denying Psy.

Sure I wasn't trying to convince you to use it, just pointing out that it's another tool for the same task.

It also has a much larger footprint, I think a single apostle will struggle to maintain the buff over much stuff since it's fully within, but at least he is mobile.

There is also the deredeo with hellfire veil. Ultimately it depends on your access to the models and what style list your using.

BTW I wouldn't consider the crown being target-able a disadvantage, if they want to try to kill it I'd be happy.

I just figured out that Abaddon makes tzaangors immune to morale. This could be huge for hth chaos armies.

Currently theory-crafting. Thoughts on using a Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch & Master of Possessions to ride along with Tzeentch-aligned Daemon Engines?

Sorcerer on Disc, MoP, Lord Discordant, and Defiler (could also use a Maulerfiend). Sorcerer gets Warptime and Weaver of Fates, MoP gets Cursed Earth and Infernal Power/Sacrifice (second power is not so important).
From being on a Disc, the Sorcerer gains the DAEMON keyword (and is therefore affected by the MoP's spells), a 12" move to keep up with Daemon Engines, and a 5++, and loses the INFANTRY keyword (relevant for Vindicares, and HERETIC ASTARTES INFANTRY stratagems, but you were never going to use VotLW on a Sorcerer, let's be honest).
Advance the MoP, move everything else up to be within 6" for Cursed Earth - the Defiler only needs to be within 3" of the Sorc, since Warptime shenanigans will take it out of the Cursed Earth aura anyway. Pop Cursed Earth for a 4++ on everything but the MoP, then Weaver of Fates the Lord Discordant (or Defiler if you like) for a 3++, then Warptime the Defiler to sling it at their faces.
Bonus points for using the Soulforged Pack detachment - this would let you advance the Defiler twice (movement phase and Warptime) for extra distance, and then pop the detachment stratagem to allow it to charge T1.
Downsides being:
- The Lord Discordant's aura isn't utilised by the Defiler until he also gets into combat, but I've started thinking of him as just another Daemon Engine as opposed to an actual HQ choice.
- This would have to take up an HQ/Heavy slot from a second detachment (Supreme Command can't take Heavy choices, other detachments can only take 2 HQ choices)

With the load-out I'm planning (MoP, minimal Sorcerer on Disc, Baleflamer on the Lord Discordant, melee Defiler with a combi-bolter too because why not) the cost only comes out at 555, which leaves plenty of space for the rest of an army. You could use a variation of this to pack a melee threat into a ranged army or double down on Daemon Engines. More Daemon engines would get more out of the MoP and Lord Discordant, help with target saturation, and provide you with the opportunities to keep Warptiming Daemon Engines to hit enemy units far and wide every turn - might even be worth running some Greater Possessed in that case.

 MinscS2 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Yeah, but if you have a squad with only one or two models out of ten which are within 6 inches of the DA. Then what happens when only 2 models in your army have the 5++ ? Can you "choose" to take wounds on those two with the 5++ instead of others?

The squad is considered to be "within" 6", so the entire squad would have a 5++.

If you remove those 2 who are within 6" as casualties however, the remaining squadmembers will loose the 5++ due to no longer being within 6".

So don't do that.

Huh, is that the way it works? I think the model having a 5++ (as per the prayer wording) is very different from the whole unit getting a 5++ just because one of its models happens to be within 6 inches of the Priest. If they meant for it to be unit, they would have used the word unit, rather than model.

Huh, you're right.
I'm so used to 8th Ed. auras using "units within" that I overlooked that it actually says "models within".

Strange, especially given how the +1 to hit and +1 to wound-prayers work (they affect units within, not models).

Typo or brainfart from GW? Neither would surprise me at this stage.

I guess the correct way to play it currently is that if you want to use the 5++ on a unit that's partially within, every failed IV would result in a dead model from those within 6", since they have different saves than the others.
It's basically the same as using units with mixed saves, i.e. Space Marine Veterans where a handful have Stormshields. If you use the 3++ and fail, then obviously a Stormshield dies and not a non-stormshield.

Suddenly that prayer got alot less interesting.
It's still decent for handing out 5++ to stuff like non-daemonic Vehicles (Helbrutes, Rhinos, Land Raiders, Predators and Vindicators), but it's appeal in a infantry-focused list more or less vanished.

that prayer works fine with small units, with large blobs isn't so efficient. Forget 100 cultists with a 5++ save, anyway also with a 5++ save with their D 5 they are pretty sensitive to battle shock, now you can play just 30, without abbadon i doubt they last long, 17 dead and whole unit melt, IG, Eldar, some marines builds can easily remove so many models in 1 single turn, regardless 5++, that stratagem can be useful with chaos marines or veichles.

 Total wrote:
Currently theory-crafting. Thoughts on using a Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch & Master of Possessions to ride along with Tzeentch-aligned Daemon Engines?

Sorcerer on Disc, MoP, Lord Discordant, and Defiler (could also use a Maulerfiend). ....
Bonus points for using the Soulforged Pack detachment - this would let you advance the Defiler twice (movement phase and Warptime) for extra distance, and then pop the detachment stratagem to allow it to charge T1.
Downsides being:
- The Lord Discordant's aura isn't utilised by the Defiler until he also gets into combat, but I've started thinking of him as just another Daemon Engine as opposed to an actual HQ choice.
- This would have to take up an HQ/Heavy slot from a second detachment (Supreme Command can't take Heavy choices, other detachments can only take 2 HQ choices)

To accomplish the last part of the plan (flinging the Defiler into assault after it has advanced) you'll have to Soulforge the detachment you draw the Defiler from (presumably a Battalion). And probably may as well Soulforge the Supreme Command detachment as well? -- to increase the threat range of the Lord Discordant.
edit: nope, can't have either the sorcerer or the MoP in a Soulforged detachment. So, stash the Lord Discordant in with a clutch of daemon engines for the Heavy detachment, and craft a battalion with your sorcerer on disk and your MoP as hq elements, and fill in with cultists as troops (sacrificing when necessary to nourish your daemon engines as they take wounds).
In which case, Mwuhahaha indeed. Might as well pack that second detachment with daemon engines - which of course makes it work even better (threat saturation; maximization of your buffing auras, etc.).

I am thinking a Venom Crawler would be good in a soulforged detachment too. Its guns are str 8 and assault 2d3. So, the Venomcrawler is one of the few Daemon Engines that can actually move advance and still fire all its guns. Also, its ws and bs doesn't degrade as it takes damage. Its only 10 wounds, but its the cheapest Daemon Engines as well. But Defilers are so good simply because they are so tanky for their points.

Hey, so I mostly play guard, but I've got some chaos stuff I want to expand, and I'm curious why the ritualist detachment isn't getting more love?
Black Legion with strats, buffs and daemon allies could get possessed to S8, Ad3+2 if they outnumber the enemy, MWs on 6s to wound, 3++/5+++, -2 to be hit, healing 2d3 wounds a turn.

Is it just that it's a huge point sink? Still seems like a squad of 20 could push up the midfield pretty imperviously and wipe whatever it hits