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Tbh, we don't know the other powers yet so we should wait before complaining.

In addition, these 2 acolytes will help against snipers.

So I guess now we can give a unit of possessed another +1 strength and attack from a strategem. So now they get 5 base, +1 herald, +1 strategeum, +1 g. possessed.

So like, now they are all strength 8 O.o;; I feel like all of this kind of misses the point in some ways; their issues are mobility and durability, neither of which are getting fixed.

So with all buffs they are what....reroll 1s to hit and wound, 2-4 attacks per round with a reroll (so let's say average 3.5), strength 8, ap -2, 1 damage, inflict a mortal wound on wounds of 6s. They'll also probably get either the slaanesh or the nurgle locus, so another bonus wound on 6s or advance/charge.

I dunno, I'm starting to think that maybe they are almost worth it? Pair it with a tree so they get 1+ saves round one? I dunno, probably still wishful thinking, but they are really pumping up those stats >.>

Really not getting the nerf complaints. It's not like the Dark Apostle was useful in its prior state, giving him more versatility can only help.

Consider: What if one of the Prayers increases his movement speed?

For all we know he may have a reroll all shooting aura prayer, and become instantly more useful than he was before, or a reroll all wounds prayer so you can pair him up with Abbadon to replicate the Guiliman aura.

We have only seen 2 of his 6 powers so far, i'd wait and see what else he has to offer.

I mean, the bonus attack prayer is hilarious. Give him the black mace and he hits harder than a demon prince for 76 points. 7 ws 2+ Str 7 ap -4 damage 2 attacks.

I dunno if it's good, per say, but it is hilarious.

If he has even a gakky move or shoot oriented prayer, like +3" or reroll wounds of 1 while shooting, I'd say he'd be pretty decent for the flexibility.

Word on the street is that the Dark Apostle isn't losing his old rule, and all Dark Zealotry does is ramp it up to a Cawl aura. So nothing but a buff.

 VyRa wrote:
So the DA is getting another nerf-in-disguise. Seems to be the theme of this dex. Really not all that happy about this as a World Eaters player. Loyalist chaplains get that combat reroll for free without a roll and now we only have 66% chance to have our rerolls. Also expecting the DA to get a higher price tag, now that he has some "new and advanced" options.

I don’t think there’s any disguise about it

Dark Apostles, pre-Vigilus: 6” reroll CCQ hit Dice aura in your phase and enemy phase

Dark Apostles, post-Vigilus: roll a 3+ (adding one if a specific squishy human unit is nearby and still alive) to generate a 6” reroll for the rest of the battle round

In half of the games you play, you’ll not be able to have the aura active half the turns, which massively impacts on ‘stabby tarpit’ plays

The other undivided prayer looks good on a Cursed Crozius, however on a unit with a 6” move that’s pretty marginal

Hopefully those Disciples won’t just be a pair of freely targetable T3 6+ wounds

New Possessed strat could be pretty tasty, with GP & Herald that’s base S8

If you didn't see any use for the DA before, that's fine. I did. Now, with him taking up three slots in a transport and the added benefit of not bringing his rerolls to a fight, a chaos lord might be the better option. So, i'm disappointed. And i might also be a tad emotional right now, so please don't take me too serious. Let's wait and see what other prayers we'll get.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Word on the street is that the Dark Apostle isn't losing his old rule, and all Dark Zealotry does is ramp it up to a Cawl aura. So nothing but a buff.

Dark Zealotry is literally the exact same as their previous always-on aura, copied & pasted.

 lindsay40k wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Word on the street is that the Dark Apostle isn't losing his old rule, and all Dark Zealotry does is ramp it up to a Cawl aura. So nothing but a buff.

Dark Zealotry is literally the exact same as their previous always-on aura, copied & pasted.

No it isn't.

Original Dark Apostle wrote:Dark Zealotry: You can re-roll failed hit rolls in the Fight phase

New Dark Apostle wrote:Dark Zealotry: You can re-roll hit rolls in the Fight phase

A pretty key operative word is missing in the new ability. The new one is worded like Cawl's aura, and lets you reroll any hit roll you choose (meaning, you can reroll hits that missed because of a penalty to hit and such).

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Word on the street is that the Dark Apostle isn't losing his old rule, and all Dark Zealotry does is ramp it up to a Cawl aura. So nothing but a buff.

Dark Zealotry is literally the exact same as their previous always-on aura, copied & pasted.

No it isn't.

Original Dark Apostle wrote:Dark Zealotry: You can re-roll failed hit rolls in the Fight phase

New Dark Apostle wrote:Dark Zealotry: You can re-roll hit rolls in the Fight phase

A pretty key operative word is missing in the new ability. The new one is worded like Cawl's aura, and lets you reroll any hit roll you choose (meaning, you can reroll hits that missed because of a penalty to hit and such).

Which are a lot less common than shooting penalties...

It's a minor buff, but not worth being inactive 1/3rd the time.

Someone on the other thread said that the Facebook page indicated the Dark Apostle still gets the old Dark Zealotry and the new one just upgrades it, but now that I'm scanning through their posts myself I can't find it.

I'm not too concerned about it, really. As I said before the old Dark Apostle was pretty bad, if the new one gets good alternative options (like, say, a movement speed boost) then I'm a lot more interested in fielding him.

Oh, wait, this new ability is used at the start of battle rounds. So, it does apply for your turn and theirs.

BUT to be reliable, you need to keep those squishy-looking clerks within 2”, meaning if you get the DA into a fight to use the new prayer then his vassals will have to get within slapping distance of whoever he’d rucking with.

Unless they’re characters, I can’t see how they’re anything other than a high priority, low hanging fruit, ripe with delicious kill points

Even if they are characters, they’re human and arriving after everyone paints their new sniper units

I'm assuming/hoping that the Disciples work like Celestine's girls and are a part of the DA's unit. They aren't targetable separately, can eat his wounds if you want them to.

I like how the fethed over WB somehow even more by ruining ther signature unit

So BL is okay:

IW, NL,WB are meh

Renegades: Ok there is a buff there

left are AL, EC, WE.

so we got now 3 bad 1 meh and 1 good out of 8.

I love how few people are actually capable of reading lol

The only factions that have had their faction-specific rules previewed are Black Legion and the Renegade Chapters. The Iron Warriors stuff was Chaos Space Marines. The Night Lords stuff was Chaos Space Marines. The Word Bearers stuff was Chaos Space Marines. Each of those articles previewed detachments that any CSM army can use but happen to be particularly flavorful for the faction in question.

I personally disagree with WHC's decision to run the previews like this, but the fact is that we have no idea what the IW, NL, and WB benefits look like.

Hopefully the prayer does just upgrade his static aura, since chanting occurring at the start of the battle round means the Khorne Party Bus (TM) definitely won't get rerolls to hit the turn they jump out of the rhino.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I like how the fethed over WB somehow even more by ruining ther signature unit

So BL is okay:

IW, NL,WB are meh

Renegades: Ok there is a buff there

left are AL, EC, WE.

so we got now 3 bad 1 meh and 1 good out of 8.

I was pretty happy with the IW one to be honest. I'd say, IW/Renegades was good, BL was ok, and NL/WB are meh, but YMMV.

I'm more happy with the updates and changes to existing units. I always disliked that the Dark Apostle was the 'cheaper Chaos Lord', I like that he's got a unique role in the army now.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I love how few people are actually capable of reading lol

The only factions that have had their faction-specific rules previewed are Black Legion and the Renegade Chapters. The Iron Warriors stuff was Chaos Space Marines. The Night Lords stuff was Chaos Space Marines. The Word Bearers stuff was Chaos Space Marines. Each of those articles previewed detachments that any CSM army can use but happen to be particularly flavorful for the faction in question.

I personally disagree with WHC's decision to run the previews like this, but the fact is that we have no idea what the IW, NL, and WB benefits look like.

Do you really think the legions will get individual benefits? If they do, and GW decided to not preview them with the legion articles, that is full of stupid. Odds are the legions won't be getting anything new specific to them.

drakerocket wrote:
So I guess now we can give a unit of possessed another +1 strength and attack from a strategem. So now they get 5 base, +1 herald, +1 strategeum, +1 g. possessed.

So like, now they are all strength 8 O.o;; I feel like all of this kind of misses the point in some ways; their issues are mobility and durability, neither of which are getting fixed.

So with all buffs they are what....reroll 1s to hit and wound, 2-4 attacks per round with a reroll (so let's say average 3.5), strength 8, ap -2, 1 damage, inflict a mortal wound on wounds of 6s. They'll also probably get either the slaanesh or the nurgle locus, so another bonus wound on 6s or advance/charge.

I dunno, I'm starting to think that maybe they are almost worth it? Pair it with a tree so they get 1+ saves round one? I dunno, probably still wishful thinking, but they are really pumping up those stats >.>

For a little simpler method: Put 9 possessed with mark + icon of Khorne and a MoP in a Rhino, rush up the field, pop smoke. T2 disembark, buff up Possessed with MoP power, charge, pop strategy at the start of the fight phase and enjoy. Only problem is getting the possessed within 6" for the charge because otherwise they lose the benefit of some powers and you can't pop the strategy.

This isn't as powerful as buffing them up with literally everything that's available but it'll paint a significantly smaller target in your Rhino and leaves you with enough points to put other stuff in your list.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I love how few people are actually capable of reading lol

The only factions that have had their faction-specific rules previewed are Black Legion and the Renegade Chapters. The Iron Warriors stuff was Chaos Space Marines. The Night Lords stuff was Chaos Space Marines. The Word Bearers stuff was Chaos Space Marines. Each of those articles previewed detachments that any CSM army can use but happen to be particularly flavorful for the faction in question.

I personally disagree with WHC's decision to run the previews like this, but the fact is that we have no idea what the IW, NL, and WB benefits look like.

Do you really think the legions will get individual benefits? If they do, and GW decided to not preview them with the legion articles, that is full of stupid. Odds are the legions won't be getting anything new specific to them.

Considering the fact that almost all of the main loyalist chapters got their own specialist detachments in the first Vigilus book, yeah, that's what I'm assuming. Do you really think that only Black Legion and the Fallen will get their own specialist detachments?

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I love how few people are actually capable of reading lol

The only factions that have had their faction-specific rules previewed are Black Legion and the Renegade Chapters. The Iron Warriors stuff was Chaos Space Marines. The Night Lords stuff was Chaos Space Marines. The Word Bearers stuff was Chaos Space Marines. Each of those articles previewed detachments that any CSM army can use but happen to be particularly flavorful for the faction in question.

I personally disagree with WHC's decision to run the previews like this, but the fact is that we have no idea what the IW, NL, and WB benefits look like.

Do you really think the legions will get individual benefits? If they do, and GW decided to not preview them with the legion articles, that is full of stupid. Odds are the legions won't be getting anything new specific to them.

Considering the fact that almost all of the main loyalist chapters got their own specialist detachments in the first Vigilus book, yeah, that's what I'm assuming. Do you really think that only Black Legion and the Fallen will get their own specialist detachments?

Well, sort of. In the BL focus article they said that BL got bespoke rules because they were "the stars of the show in Vigilus Ablaze". I'm guessing the Fallen get theirs just to fix the whole "we forgot to bring our rides" problem they had with the codex. I hope you are right, but I somehow doubt it based on what we have seen already with the Legion focus articles.

If Fallen end up being troops that would be amazing.

Hang on

So Prayers have effects listed in their table, yeah

If that table’s not on the Dark Apostle datasheet, then I believe it won’t be affected by Voice of Lorgar without a reversal of existing FAQ?

 lindsay40k wrote:
Hang on

So Prayers have effects listed in their table, yeah

If that table’s not on the Dark Apostle datasheet, then I believe it won’t be affected by Voice of Lorgar without a reversal of existing FAQ?

Not all of the Prayer effects are even auras, so yeah, this is probably how it's supposed to work. Obviously it's undesirable for the Word Bearers warlord trait to not function with the Dark Apostle's key feature so this is probably something worth emailing the team about to try and make sure it gets into the post-release FAQ.

I do wish every Legion got their own specific Specialist Detachment like Black Legion got, but then again I really do wonder why would they not show these on spoilers?

It's most likely that other legions are just getting these generic Specialist Detachments just like they previewed, while the main baddies of Black Legion get all the good stuff. However doing legion specific previews because of mere generic Specialist Detachments, like Raptorial Host for NL, is a bit annoying especially when this Raptorial Host is pretty mediocre. Morale is still so conditional and situational instead of universal and significant amount of units on table are immune to morale to begin with. Vicious Descent stratagem on the other hand has been pretty much neutered by the fact that it's tied to Jump Pack units (both Raptors and Warp Talons are mediocre at best). They should have just made Viscious Descent to allow deep striking outside 6" or something to make charging more certain. Or is someone here going to commit 2-3 CPs to make sure Deep Striking Warp Talons get 55% chance (or how high re-rolled 2D6 to get 9 is) to make it to melee after entering battlefield. This just isn't a good deal.

EDIT: And I might add Warp Talons are not even that good in melee, throw them at anything with Toughness 5 or higher and good save and watch how they maybe chip off 1-2 wounds of the model/unit while Emperor laughs on his beard.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I love how few people are actually capable of reading lol

The only factions that have had their faction-specific rules previewed are Black Legion and the Renegade Chapters. The Iron Warriors stuff was Chaos Space Marines. The Night Lords stuff was Chaos Space Marines. The Word Bearers stuff was Chaos Space Marines. Each of those articles previewed detachments that any CSM army can use but happen to be particularly flavorful for the faction in question.

I personally disagree with WHC's decision to run the previews like this, but the fact is that we have no idea what the IW, NL, and WB benefits look like.

Do you really think the legions will get individual benefits? If they do, and GW decided to not preview them with the legion articles, that is full of stupid. Odds are the legions won't be getting anything new specific to them.

Considering the fact that almost all of the main loyalist chapters got their own specialist detachments in the first Vigilus book, yeah, that's what I'm assuming. Do you really think that only Black Legion and the Fallen will get their own specialist detachments?

You are going to be very disappointed, because it's pretty obvious that the various Traitor Legions are not getting their own detachments. GW has said as much on FB.

While Word Bearers have indisputably the worst trait in the game it's almost worse how fitting but bad all the Night Lord's rules are.

A big part of the horde vs elite power divide is how awful the morale system is and how easily horde armies ignore/mitigate it and how much more the losses hurt elite armies.

They would have a valuable place in a game where morale was any kind of threat to hordes.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
You are going to be very disappointed, because it's pretty obvious that the various Traitor Legions are not getting their own detachments. GW has said as much on FB.

Funny, I was looking at it the opposite way, Loyalists got hosed because their specialist detachments are Chapter locked, Heretics, outside of the meh BL detachment can be applied to any Legion, which is kind of amazing.

This is true. Everyone being able to use them means we only need 1-3 that are worth a damn to make out ok on this. GW is usually good for 1-3 obviously better options.