Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

That's why I am wondering why on earth anyone would complain about stuff being generic. Imagine Night Lords ONLY getting the one previewed with them, they'd be just totally trash. Now, we just have a trash detachment, which doesn't matter as long as you aren't too invested in Raptors or Warp Talons..

.And if you were, well, you're already a masochist enough, maybe this detachment is just what you need to add to your army.

Hmm. Some possible interactions:

- Can we use Incursion (Malefic spell 1) to Summon after moving?

- Can we use Daemonic Pact (CD Strat) to Summon twice with Incursion?

- If so, is it with 4D6?

 lindsay40k wrote:
Hmm. Some possible interactions:

- Can we use Incursion (Malefic spell 1) to Summon after moving?

- Can we use Daemonic Pact (CD Strat) to Summon twice with Incursion?

- If so, is it with 4D6?

I'd imagine that's the entire point of the psychic power, otherwise it wouldn't be a whooping 7 casting charge.

Probably not. It's not Daemonic Ritual, it's just summoning.

See above.

Posssessed in that new formation along with a greater possessed and a daemon herald can get +3 str. Their strength becomes str 8 ... Let that sink in for a moment. And we don't even know if there might be some prayer that lets them hit harder too.

Those things are going to be punching up knights with the proper buffs and strategems ... lol

Delivery and resilience are their biggest issues though.

 Eldarain wrote:
Delivery and resilience are their biggest issues though.

Take Alpha legion. scout move them 9 inch up with forward operatives. Their basic move is 7 inches. So, now they are 16 inches up the board on the first turn (not even counting warptime). You have cursed earth from master of possession giving them 4++ They are stock 2 wounds each. You can cast delightful agonies and other possible psychics on them. Bottom line, these things can be gotten round. Its how much you want to invest into getting around them.

Definitely worth trying I agree. We also haven't seen everything and with the lack of legion locking there should be some more options.

 vaklor4 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Hmm. Some possible interactions:

- Can we use Incursion (Malefic spell 1) to Summon after moving?

- Can we use Daemonic Pact (CD Strat) to Summon twice with Incursion?

- If so, is it with 4D6?

I'd imagine that's the entire point of the psychic power, otherwise it wouldn't be a whooping 7 casting charge.

Probably not. It's not Daemonic Ritual, it's just summoning.

See above.

Incursion does specifically say ‘immediately attempt to summon a unit of DAEMONS to the battlefield using the Daemonic Ritual ability’



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Delivery and resilience are their biggest issues though.

Take Alpha legion. scout move them 9 inch up with forward operatives. Their basic move is 7 inches. So, now they are 16 inches up the board on the first turn (not even counting warptime). You have cursed earth from master of possession giving them 4++ They are stock 2 wounds each. You can cast delightful agonies and other possible psychics on them. Bottom line, these things can be gotten round. Its how much you want to invest into getting around them.

Take a Gnarlmaw or Daemons of Slaanesh detachment. Both enable charging after advancing and Warptime advancing.

Gnarlmaw could make itself useful by hanging out with some Nurgle Oblits and giving them a 2+ save against anything with less AP than a Lascannon. Also can afford the Possessed cover on the first turn.

Back to the Possessed - there’s a third limiting factor on their efficacy: impact. S8 AP-2 is all well and good, but D1? That’s not going to bench a Knight. Double virulence Nurgle makes 5’s to Wound inflict 2D, 6’s inflict 3. VOTLW pips that to fours and fives. Locus of Grace and Crimson Crown can give them extra hits. Fiends can make them into a stabby tarpit.

I do worry that it's throwing good points after bad but it is awesome we have such a deep toolchest to try things.

As far as Incursion/Pact. I would say yes you can after moving and pact would be legal but I don't think you get the 4D6 Immune to doubles etc on the Pact summon.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Delivery and resilience are their biggest issues though.

Take Alpha legion. scout move them 9 inch up with forward operatives. Their basic move is 7 inches. So, now they are 16 inches up the board on the first turn (not even counting warptime). You have cursed earth from master of possession giving them 4++ They are stock 2 wounds each. You can cast delightful agonies and other possible psychics on them. Bottom line, these things can be gotten round. Its how much you want to invest into getting around them.

Red Corsairs would be a legit option as you get even a bonus CP for the detachment being pure Corsairs.

It's important to remember how awesome Delightful Agonies is in general but also on a 2W model like Possessed. Firstly, the formula for FnP-like abilities is 1/(1-FnP%), not 1+FnP% so DA actually reduces damage taken by 50%. But on a 2W model it also makes you much more resilient to 2D weapons, because there's a 55% chance that each model requires more than 1 shot to kill it, so your opponent "wastes" 2 2D shots (theoretically 4W) to kill a 2W model.

Now obviously this relies on a psychic power going off which is problematic if you don't get first turn + it can be denied. Given you want to be in melee range you will pretty much always be in deny range after T1.

However, I think this detachment may be what we need to run Possessed effectively. The tricky bit will be figuring out which HQs/supporting characters to bring along but we have options. I think it's important to realise though that Possessed are never going to be destroying Knights unless we get a way to buff the damage of their attacks. They should be used as a hard-to-kill light/heavy infantry killing machine. They're probably never going to be as devastating as Berzerkers or Bloodletters but they'll be harder to remove.

Hmm, while I want possessed to work, they're going to require a big commitment, and there's a lot of contingency on other units and casts there too.

Gotta say, if we're delivering the unit by transport, I'd much prefer zerkers. Less resource intensive, 6 (or 8 for WE) S10 attacks in each squad, good chaff clearing, and 100pts can get you the best 5-man team load out available. They also do pretty well against knights, no S buffs needed. Crucially, you get that power fist option in each squad, whilst possessed are stuck on D1.

If we're talking about hoofing across the board then yeah, buffed possessed are preferable.

I think the main benefit (if there is one) of Possessed is that they're not necessarily <Khorne>. Zerkers are probably going to be more efficient, but there are factions that can't take Khorne units. Right now the factions that's true for don't give enough to justify giving up the benefits of being Undivided, but we're about to get 3 god-specific chapters so that could very well change.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Hmm. Some possible interactions:

- Can we use Incursion (Malefic spell 1) to Summon after moving?

Yes.

Incursion
If manifested, the psyker can immediately summon attempt to summon a unit of DAEMONS to the battlefield using the Daemonic Ritual ability as if it were the Movement phase. When doing so, roll up to 4 dice instead of up to 3. The psyker will not suffer any mortal wounds as a result of doubles or triples being rolled for this Daemonic Ritual.

- Can we use Daemonic Pact (CD Strat) to Summon twice with Incursion?

Yes. Its used after a character has performed a daemonic ritual to summon a unit.


- If so, is it with 4D6?

Yes.

Chaos Daemon stratagems only work on units with <Daemon> as a *faction* keyword. So no, a MoP cannot use it.

Hmmm... I never knew how scary a Dark Apostle can be... But with some of those new stuff we are getting...

Make a Dark Apostle world eaters and mark of Khorne. Then gives it black mace. Then make it part of Demonkin Ritualist detachment. Then, when you suddenly feel the need to do so, activate the following on your dark apostle:

1. Cast prayer Omen of Potency, to give +3A and -4 AP.
2. Use strategem vessls of the neverborn to give +1 A, +1 Str.
3. Use Fury of Khorne to attack twice...

So now, your Dark Apostle is suddenly doing 8 attacks (base 3 + WE 1 + strategem 1 + prayer 3). And these 8 attacks are at Str 8 (black mace + strategem). and damage 2, and -4 AP.

And then you get to fight twice...

So, 16 str 8 attacks at -4 AP for damage flat 2 each. And dark apostle is WS 2+ This does not even factor in death to the false emperor triggering or possible warlord traits... lol

So... I think we now have our own CSM version of the smash captain now..

(Oh yes, you can add the psychic diabolic strength to this dark apostle too). Actually, if you use diabolic Str, you now have a Str 10 9 attack Dark Apostle. But if you are willing to do this, then you might as well go world bearers and use cursed Crozius instead). So now you will have Str 9 weapon that can reroll to wounds AND its a flat 3 damage. Truly smash captain epicness). lol

Nah, Smash Captains have actual mobility is the difference.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nah, Smash Captains have actual mobility is the difference.

Yes, but a Dark Apostle is only 76 points... lol I think it would be truly epic if a 76 point world bearers Dark Apostle went hulk with his Cused Crozius and smashed an imperial knight into bits and pieces... lol And given that knights don't have invul saves in cc. Statistically, with a 2+ WS and reroll to wound, this Dark Apostle has a pretty good chance of success. lol

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nah, Smash Captains have actual mobility is the difference.

They also have 4 attacks rather than 8 and unless they're space puppies, hit on 3+

 small_gods wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nah, Smash Captains have actual mobility is the difference.

They also have 4 attacks rather than 8 and unless they're space puppies, hit on 3+

They have a Strategem to attack twice too ya know...

Yeah but it's exponential. Hulk Apostle could be legit... especially as you can take a few...

 grouchoben wrote:
Yeah but it's exponential. Hulk Apostle could be legit... especially as you can take a few...

Unfortunately, you can only take one Cursed Crozius. How ever, you can run two Dark Apostles. One with Black Mace and the other with Cursed Crozius... The key thing is that its cheap. 76 points for one Dark Apostle. Only when you need to go "HULK", then you blow your CP on the strategems and such. And your Dark Apostle is likely accompanied by a bunch of cultists, or berserkers or possessed, or CSM, etc etc. So it benefits from the character rules and can't be targeted by shooting. So, its like this hidden time bomb that suddenly goes off and Hulk Smash when the opportunity presents itself.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nah, Smash Captains have actual mobility is the difference.

They also have 4 attacks rather than 8 and unless they're space puppies, hit on 3+

They have a Strategem to attack twice too ya know...

I know but the prayer going off on 2+ (with the apostles little mates) would be a flat 6. World eaters 7 etc etc.

And don't forget death to the false emperor! With so many hits, I would say there should be one or three 6s in them...

With the release of the Eliminators and the buff to the Vindicare, there are now more than just a few options for imperial commanders to safely exterminate any dangerous characters from half-a-mile away.

So right now, i'm not all that happy about another slow stompy dude with a really big axe that will certainly make the long walk towards the enemy lines and just as certainly save the day by smashing anything in sight. Having these ideas about Dark Apostles and the new Master of Executions is really cool, and for some people, that's alright and i don't want to ruin the fun for them. But for me, i like to win every once in a while. People in my club are just giddy whenever i bring my World Eaters with me, because it's fun to beat them. I would've liked some options here. Anything, really. But instead it just looks like we get some new tasty things for people to kill and feel good about.

And if that's the dedicated role of chaos in the meta - well, that's just something that i'll have to accept. I can always tell my opponents to take it easy on me. That's not at all pathetic.

As i said, i looked forward to maybe see some new ways of deployment. Something to give us - melee-oriented chaos players - an edge to pressure shooty armies. Maybe even make it into the enemy lines once in a blue moon. But there is just nothing. No specialist detachment. No stratagem to turbo-charge our Rhinos. Nothing. Just a dude with a big axe and some Bloodletters throwing overpriced skulls. :(

Who needs snipers to eliminate enemy Characters when you can do it the good old-fashioned way – with an axe to the neck?

I know lines like this are meant to sound cool, but to me, they just sound like cruel mockery. "Who needs to shoot people when you can hit them with a stick instead?" Yeah, let's just pretend that we have some magical way of somehow ever making it even close towards those enemies and there is no way we'll get torn to shreds by mortar fire on the way there. Chaos is a god damn joke.



Thank you, i'm finished.

So run Daemon Princes and that new Lord of Discordant. I am pretty sure the Lord of Discordant is going to be T7 and be under category Daemon Engine rather than infantry. Good luck trying to snipe that guy to death. I will welcome all snipers to try.

BTW, from the world eater focus, that axe of dismemberment that the Master of Executioner wields. It is X2 strength and does not have any -1 when hitting stuff. So... the Master of Executioner will have the full benefit of death to the false emperor when wielding his weapon, and it is d3 damage. So, it is strictly better than a power fist in every way. And based on X2 strength, should be hitting at at least str 8. (If he is base str 5, its going to be str 10!)

Realizing with the new Red Corsairs trait if you take a battalion with the required CSM troops and Huron as your warlord you are getting 9 CP from that single detachment.

I like single battalion builds anyway so this really helps the low CP normally experienced.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hmmm... I never knew how scary a Dark Apostle can be... But with some of those new stuff we are getting...

You forgot Diabolic Strength, Strength 10, 9 attacks.

As has been pointed out though, delivery is the issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lindsay40k wrote:
- Can we use Incursion (Malefic spell 1) to Summon after moving?

Yes.

 lindsay40k wrote:
- Can we use Daemonic Pact (CD Strat) to Summon twice with Incursion?

Yes, assuming you didn't move or only moved with Warptime, but not with the Incursion bonus.

 lindsay40k wrote:
- If so, is it with 4D6?

No.

However, you can use the Word Bearers strat to boost the second summoning roll.

Yeah. I mean the axe guy looks cool and all, but chaos does not lack for the profile of: character who will demolish you once he gets into melee, but can't because he has a 6" move.

Like, to be good (and I mean actually good, not just decent), melee has to either reach bad targets (like screens) turn one and/or things you want to hit turn 2. That is the unfortunate math of this edition, because they will all just die otherwise. Melee, for as fun as it is, demands either nutty levels of durability or 10-14 inch moves.

I would trade nearly any new thing we got for the following strategem: 1 CP: Assault Vehicles: Choose and Chaos Rhino or Chaos Land Raider; units embarked on that model may move and charge after the Rhino or Land Raider has moved.

Like would that make it good? No; your vehicle is still likely to get shot off the board and land raiders still need to be cheaper than they are right now to be decent. But, it would give you an option and manipulate your enemy's target priority. And it would make all of these things like possessed, the executioner, the MoP make so much more sense. Like, hitting hard alone is just not enough.

If that dark apostate gets a 3" bonus move aura though? That would be different, because at that point, you'll actually be well positioned with a lot of bodies for a 2nd turn charge. Again, that isn't amazing, but it would be a major boost. Warptime is an amazing spell, but it's pretty much anti-synergy; all of these overlapping auras and small unit characters don't mean anything if your only tool for getting units places mandates sending them well outside of aura range (which charging itself does often enough even without warptime).

drakerocket wrote:
Yeah. I mean the axe guy looks cool and all, but chaos does not lack for the profile of: character who will demolish you once he gets into melee, but can't because he has a 6" move.

Like, to be good (and I mean actually good, not just decent), melee has to either reach bad targets (like screens) turn one and/or things you want to hit turn 2. That is the unfortunate math of this edition, because they will all just die otherwise. Melee, for as fun as it is, demands either nutty levels of durability or 10-14 inch moves.

I would trade nearly any new thing we got for the following strategem: 1 CP: Assault Vehicles: Choose and Chaos Rhino or Chaos Land Raider; units embarked on that model may move and charge after the Rhino or Land Raider has moved.

Like would that make it good? No; your vehicle is still likely to get shot off the board and land raiders still need to be cheaper than they are right now to be decent. But, it would give you an option and manipulate your enemy's target priority. And it would make all of these things like possessed, the executioner, the MoP make so much more sense. Like, hitting hard alone is just not enough.

If that dark apostate gets a 3" bonus move aura though? That would be different, because at that point, you'll actually be well positioned with a lot of bodies for a 2nd turn charge. Again, that isn't amazing, but it would be a major boost. Warptime is an amazing spell, but it's pretty much anti-synergy; all of these overlapping auras and small unit characters don't mean anything if your only tool for getting units places mandates sending them well outside of aura range (which charging itself does often enough even without warptime).

There's always forward operatives. It seems to have been forgotten since the nerf but even a model with a 6" move will have a charge threat range of 16-24" if you depoly on the line.