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 Red Corsair wrote:
I wouldn't say chosen are better then bikes personally.

71pts gets you 3 bikes with a double combi champ, thats 6 T5 wounds moving 14" and firing 16 shots full effect out to 24".

80pts for 5 chosen with combis only gets you 4 more shots if your standing still or within 12" otherwise they drop off to 6 less shots. The 3 bikes also have one more wound, and with each wound they take they lose less firepower.

The bikes can also take specials and retain their combi bolter.

Also true, forgot for a second the pricedrop they recived.

 Red Corsair wrote:
There is a reason why you don't want to only focus on the points per damage of a unit. Mobility and durability are at least as important and often more important. Terminators are actually solid. Depends more on the list and your play style.

Can you elobrate on the terminators being solid and supporting list / playstyle?

I'm not a hugely experienced player but I tend to try to have a balanced list (shooting / cc) and try to move up fast to put pressure on with CC. Not really a fan of gunlines, although never leave home without some kind of backfield objective camper.

mrtomski wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
There is a reason why you don't want to only focus on the points per damage of a unit. Mobility and durability are at least as important and often more important. Terminators are actually solid. Depends more on the list and your play style.

Can you elobrate on the terminators being solid and supporting list / playstyle?

I'm not a hugely experienced player but I tend to try to have a balanced list (shooting / cc) and try to move up fast to put pressure on with CC. Not really a fan of gunlines, although never leave home without some kind of backfield objective camper.

Basically he states that the inante capability of terminators to deepstrike is valuable in certain lists beyond Dmg output per pts.

It's difficult to meassure the effect on the gameplay due to the enemy needing to either play around the terminators or ignoring them (granted CSm termis with combiplas and mark of slaanesh are dangerous enough to need to be played around)

Topic came up on a Facebook group... but how do you Warlords see using the Fallen? With the expanded rules for them that give you a way to build out a detachment, some people are talking about building armies around them. They have a lot of overlap with chosen, so it seems to me as similar to building a Black Legion chosen heavy army... just requiring separate detachments to get all the other basic CSM units you'd want.

 aka_mythos wrote:
Topic came up on a Facebook group... but how do you Warlords see using the Fallen? With the expanded rules for them that give you a way to build out a detachment, some people are talking about building armies around them. They have a lot of overlap with chosen, so it seems to me as similar to building a Black Legion chosen heavy army... just requiring separate detachments to get all the other basic CSM units you'd want.

I am not sure they are so much better its worth making a separate detachment of them just to have them. If you like them from a narrative point of view, then yeah, by all means. They can even take Rhinos now. But they aren't that different from chosen really. Except with some slight additional rules. Their morale thingy, if you run small squads of chosen it will rarely ever come up anyway. The reroll to hit on 1 is something cypher also gives them anyway, and well, in a normal CSM detachment, you can also take a chaos lord to do the same thing. Its really not a massive advantage over chosen. Chosen get legion traits, strategems, psychic, buffs, etc etc. Overall, I wouldn't bring them over chosen unless I really loved Fallen and wanted an army of fallen in the first place.

You could walk up an army of black legion chosen with Abby in the middle and you would have chosen that reroll all hits, and are immune to morale. And that would beat a cypher army with chosen by a mile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

mrtomski wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
There is a reason why you don't want to only focus on the points per damage of a unit. Mobility and durability are at least as important and often more important. Terminators are actually solid. Depends more on the list and your play style.

Can you elobrate on the terminators being solid and supporting list / playstyle?

I'm not a hugely experienced player but I tend to try to have a balanced list (shooting / cc) and try to move up fast to put pressure on with CC. Not really a fan of gunlines, although never leave home without some kind of backfield objective camper.

Basically he states that the inante capability of terminators to deepstrike is valuable in certain lists beyond Dmg output per pts.

It's difficult to meassure the effect on the gameplay due to the enemy needing to either play around the terminators or ignoring them (granted CSm termis with combiplas and mark of slaanesh are dangerous enough to need to be played around)

This. Online speaks the truth!

If you are playing not so experienced players who don't know the value of screening. Your terminators will be super good. Especially since now they are cheaper. If you are playing experienced players who know how deadly a plasma terminator deep strike is, They will try their very best to screen. Of course, its also the rest of your list. Because nowadays, we have the chain cannon, which is awesome at clearing screens. If you are good, you might be able to clear away all of this screens turn 1, so that he can't really do much to screen against you on turn 2 when you deep strike in.

If you are marching them up the board, it becomes a bit more iffy. Even terminator armour can be shoot off the board. And they are slow in movement. They may struggle to get into range to do something important.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Any decent builds for abaddon black legion?? Thinking of Abaddon and 10 terminators with some oblits, havocs etc.

Either make Abaddon the centerpiece of your shooty units and march him up the board, or deep strike him in with a bunch of terminators and/or oblits. The problem isn't that he and his company won't wreck face when they come in. They will for sure. The problem is he is 240 points, and 10 termis and oblit are going to cost another truckload of points. So, the question is, are you going to be able to handle facing your opponent with only half your army on turn 1. (And clear enough screens so that Abby and company can come down properly and have good targets). If you can, then go for it! I think it all lies in how you build your list, and how you handle it versus your opponent. If you play such a list well, Abby and his friends will be devastating. Abby and Plasma terminators are already devastating. Abby plus Plasma termis plus oblits are probably going to clear away a huge part of his board if they can all deep strike into where they want to.

It seems odd but I'm tempted to try footslogging Abby up the board surrounded by a couple of units of bikes. 142pts for T5 and 2 wounds each that's a 12 wound bodyguard unit that is putting out 32 rerolled bolter shots per turn. You can advance Abby while the bikes can keep up easily without having to pick up that -1 to hit.
I don't see chosen or terminators fulfilling that role better.

 aka_mythos wrote:
Topic came up on a Facebook group... but how do you Warlords see using the Fallen? With the expanded rules for them that give you a way to build out a detachment, some people are talking about building armies around them. They have a lot of overlap with chosen, so it seems to me as similar to building a Black Legion chosen heavy army... just requiring separate detachments to get all the other basic CSM units you'd want.

I’ve been trying to figure something out, myself.

None of my regular opponents have CP generators, so Cypher’s extra ability is wasted on me.

Fallen Sorcerers can only cast buffs on themselves or their Rhino. It makes sense that they don’t have access to Interromancy, but this seriously limits them. Their relic’s synergy with their melee Stratagem is unlikely to be worth a CP.

How Fallen squads differ from Chosen:
- much more restrictive loadouts
- built-in rerolls on shooting when stationary, but with no more than one >24” gun
- morale resistance second only to Tyranids, but unable to take as a horde
- access to -1 to be hit Stratagem, but can’t compound with sorcerer or DA buffs
- units with more attacks can get the melee re-rolls from an EC without needing a specific matchup, against which they face a much better strat (DttHA exploding on 4+)

Fallen gunners riding up in Rhinos don’t benefit from their defacto Legion trait until T3.

A fireteam with a chaingun can move up T1. As long as two survive the enemy firestorm, you will definitely still have a chaingun using rerolls on T2. That’s not terrible. But if three of them were Heretacs, they’d contribute four more CP, bring HQs that synergies with LEGION units, and be cheaper. HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, whilst Huron-Come-Lately has so many chaingunning Heretacs he can go full Chenkov with them, not a single one of the Fallen grabbed a rotor cannon before bouncing

A Fallen melee unit is... well, it’s a counter to a tough, low damage output unit that relies on heavy Morale debuffs to sweep (of which there are very few). And as long as it has not got an escort unit that can sweep Marines (of which there are an entire galaxy).

I guess the way to use them is lots of combi-bolters and chainguns, Cypher giving them rerolls as they walk up into midfield positions, then Cypher trolling your opponent’s CP generator as he moves up with a plasma squad. If said CP generator is a backfield supporter, you’ll need half an army of Fallen to actually annoy them. If it’s a rushdown character, you’ll either scarecrow it or deny your opponent a CP or two.

I wish they’d let Fallen take the Plasma Cannon they published art of them wielding, and supplied with my DV DA squad. That would give them a legit unique niche.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh oh oh! Fallen currently give you access to a Vindicare, via semantic reading of a White Dwarf article. (Wouldn’t buy the models to do this, future FAQs will have it in their sights.)

A fireteam with a chaingun can move up T1. As long as two survive the enemy firestorm, you will definitely still have a chaingun using rerolls on T2. That’s not terrible. But if three of them were Heretacs, they’d contribute four more CP, bring HQs that synergies with LEGION units, and be cheaper.

Fallen dont have access to chainguns.

Is there any way for a Hellforged Comteptor Dread to be viable with the New Codex. Lacking the demon word they are unable to get a lot of the buffs. They do not have the Deamon, or Deamon Engine key word so the Lord Discordant cannot buff them either. I have a contemptor unassembled and was wondering if it were worth building and converting?

Red Corsairs can let the melee ones run and charge. That's still really good.
Otherwise shooting ones are still aight for Alpha Legion or Iron Warriors.

Contemptor with butcher cannons is a very nice unit that really needs no buffs. Just let it do it's thing. Hits on 2s and good value

Fallen sorcerors can't even buff themselves.. they lose the keyword when they join the detachment...

It's almost as though Fallen were badly implemented to begin with.

Klone12 wrote:
So in 8th you can move after disembarking.

Can't you move out of a kharibdys ?

I think the kharibdyss being in 9" and you being able to disembark 6" from the enemy and charge with rerolls is enough, but you never know.

Even if you can't, you don't have to start the kharybdis in reserve.
it has a 15 inch move so you could warptime and then charge to your hearts content.
Next turn you disembark with relative freedom of what to assault.... or not, it can be quite the nuisance and ghetto sniper assuming I didn't miss any nerf to its pistols and if they kill it, whatever it was carrying can then do its thing.
It's not exacly easy to surround and you don't need to stay 9 inch away when disembarking normally as opposed to the drop pod assault disembark.

And without warptime you could still advance I guess, putting you at about 18 inch and disembarking next turn for another 8 and a half, harder to assault from but could be possible with good rolls.

It's wishlisting but how COOL would it be to have the Assault Claw act line a DE vehicle and everyone shoots out of it?

Shame we don't have anything like that.

Contemptor/deredeo/leviathan are all good standalone units. Give them reroll ones from a cheap chaos lord and butcher cannons, and place them in your backfield. Alpha legion for durability is the most competetive setup imho.

stormcraft wrote:
Contemptor/deredeo/leviathan are all good standalone units. Give them reroll ones from a cheap chaos lord and butcher cannons, and place them in your backfield. Alpha legion for durability is the most competetive setup imho.

or IW for that ignoring of cover.

maybee BL tough if you want to babysitt with abbydab.

Not Online!!! wrote:

stormcraft wrote:
Contemptor/deredeo/leviathan are all good standalone units. Give them reroll ones from a cheap chaos lord and butcher cannons, and place them in your backfield. Alpha legion for durability is the most competetive setup imho.

or IW for that ignoring of cover.

maybee BL tough if you want to babysitt with abbydab.

I dont feel like you get a lot of mileage from Abigail in that situation because everyone has Bs2+ naturally. By the time they go to BS4+ an opponent would likely commit to killing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

stormcraft wrote:
Contemptor/deredeo/leviathan are all good standalone units. Give them reroll ones from a cheap chaos lord and butcher cannons, and place them in your backfield. Alpha legion for durability is the most competetive setup imho.

or IW for that ignoring of cover.

maybee BL tough if you want to babysitt with abbydab.

I dont feel like you get a lot of mileage from Abigail in that situation because everyone has Bs2+ naturally. By the time they go to BS4+ an opponent would likely commit to killing.

Granted Abby is probably the ultimate deepstrike deterrent.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Fallen Sorcerers can only cast buffs on themselves or their Rhino. It makes sense that they don’t have access to Interromancy, but this seriously limits them. Their relic’s synergy with their melee Stratagem is unlikely to be worth a CP.

Actually, they can't even do that since the specialist detachment removes the Heretic Astartes keyword from the Sorcerers.

Gah. If anyone wants me, I’ll be flipping a table again.

...Speaking of synergy-destroying keyword absences, I’m half way through building a Greater Possessed specifically to Possess a SM character into and now notice that they don’t spawn with a LEGION.

Well, so much for playing as a force of assimilationist corrupters.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/04/05/chaos-space-marines-top-5-tactics-for-matched-play/

Oh GW why...?

 The Forgemaster wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/04/05/chaos-space-marines-top-5-tactics-for-matched-play/

Oh GW why...?

Ah, the top five reasons to buy the stuff we just released....

To be fair, the Lord Discordant is a beat stick to end all beat sticks, havocs are GOOD, and they very specficailyl called out Red Corsairs, and fair play they are the best way to play CSM at the moment, especially for CP.

The Noctolith crown however? Lord no. And narry a mention of any demon princes either, even though they are the end all be all best unit in ANY chaos codex IMO.

Black legion chaos lord (with JP/on bike) with ghorisvex's teeth and WLT flames of spite. Mark of khorne. Play Votlw on him, and the soultearer portent prayer from a dark apostle for +2 to wound rolls. Thats 6 attacks hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s. Every wound roll of 4+ is 2 MW in addition to normal damage. Pick a second chainsword for one more attack. Cast diabolic strength on him for one more attack, and S+2. Pick a second chainsword for one more attack. Spend 3CP and fight again. Any more ideas how to improve him ?

So I wanted the reaper autocannon termi’s to be playable, but no one ever brings it up, even though plasma termi’s with Mark of slaanesh and deepstrike for 20 plasma shots has come up before. Is the reaper just too limited in targets worth shooting due to the mid-high strength, low damage?

Hold on, does the Black legion stratagem "Tip of the Spear" persist across multiple units? It effects "the unit that is closest to the enemy", but if they incompletely destroy their target, the closest unit changes and may not have shot yet.

macluvin wrote:
So I wanted the reaper autocannon termi’s to be playable, but no one ever brings it up, even though plasma termi’s with Mark of slaanesh and deepstrike for 20 plasma shots has come up before. Is the reaper just too limited in targets worth shooting due to the mid-high strength, low damage?

Actually the reaper was brought up and is decent.

Awesome. I’m assuming chainaxe and combiplas is the way to go?

macluvin wrote:
Awesome. I’m assuming chainaxe and combiplas is the way to go?

Weeellll still terminators so unlike you have developped a fetish for them hold back a bit, but combiplas + reaper or reaper + combibolter and Chainaxes gives you a decent "cheapish" dakka Termi squad i guess.