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I still like the allied Daemons battalion of 2 Heralds (for me it's usually a Slaanesh one and a Poxbringer) and 3 min units of Nurglings. Nurglings are a great little pest unit that can disrupt infiltrating units and are surprisingly tough to kill.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I'm floating over the order button for a Kytan as I think he and 3x Lord Discordant are undeniable threats that will draw all fire, while the other 1000pts of army is likely relatively unmolested.

Am I right in thinking the only way to get Kytan in the Daemon Engine special formation is via Supreme Command, as someone mentioned earlier? What Legion would be best for that detachment?

Technically, you could field a super heavy detachment and nominate it. I mean, you’d get no HQ or HE slots, but it’s there. SC is the only way to get HQ & LoW. ...SC does have an Elite slot as well, if you’re got a Decimator.

As for the Legion: Iron Warriors. You can spend a CP to give the Kytan a 6+++. LoW’s are about the only units on which it’s a good, efficient Stratagem.

Honourable mention to World Eaters; access to a 4+ DTW can really infuriate Magnus when he casts Smite on a 14.

It’s the DE formation that unlocks a +2” Warlord Trait, right? Or am I thinking of Black Legion?

That and you need it for the run+charge strategem.

Instead of spending CP to run & charge with one unit, I like to bring a Slaaneshi Daemons Vanguard. DPs and Heralds on Steeds provide Advance + Charge auras and accuracy or strength buffs, the Fiends have perfect synergy with punchy Daemon Engines. Get them to tag a unit and it’s got to stay in melee and get stomped in the enemy turn. Engage early with a few unfleeable Maulerfiends or Defilers and you can dictate the flow of battle


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am liking Devastation battery with two Havoc squads and Nurgle Oblits by a tree. If an enemy unit moves forwards in the first turn, an eighteen shot punishing volley is going to sting.

Shame the tree requires a detachment.

I am giving some very serious consideration to running something like:

Alpha Legion
Jump Lord with hydra sword (battery bonus warlord)
Lord discordant (Nurgle)
3x 5 csm combibolter/chaingun
2 Oblitsx3 (nurgle)

Chaos Daemons (nurgle)
Epididimus
Herald
(possibly one of the other support HQs)
2x 30 PB
1x Nurglings

Fortification:
Tree


Should come out right around 1900-1950. Contemplate some HQ upgrades from there.

The oblits will probably never die with -1 (potentially stacking to -2) to be hit and a 0+ armor save. Even las leaves them with 4+ saves. Sure, no endless, but having both of them for the with rerolls to hit and wound will be sufficient I think. Excellent target for the nurgle healing spell/strategem as well of course. I think I can also get the lord into the 0+ aura, making him pretty viable to live first turn as well for that delish first turn charge if he wants it. Demon prince with wings would also be fine in his spot, and I would also consider trading out the jump pack lord for a sorc given how quickly the oblits will get reroll 1s from epi.

It's been forever since I looked, what are the deployment rules for the tree?

I still think cultists are better, simply because they are meat shields. They bubble wrap and protect what marines really aren't able to for their cost. You wouldn't put your unit of 5 marines in a position to just get charged, but you would gladly do it for cultists. It's just raw wounds, you aren't expecting them to actually deal their damage back. You just want their CP and wound total to make their cost back.

Anyone tried the new Abbadon rules in a game yet?

 lindsay40k wrote:
I am liking Devastation battery with two Havoc squads and Nurgle Oblits by a tree. If an enemy unit moves forwards in the first turn, an eighteen shot punishing volley is going to sting.

By tree, are you talking about a Fectulant Gnarlmaw?

If so, what is it doing with that combination of units beside giving the Oblits +2 cover?

New to DG and Deamons so completely curious if I am missing something else on top of that.

 Marius Xerxes wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
I am liking Devastation battery with two Havoc squads and Nurgle Oblits by a tree. If an enemy unit moves forwards in the first turn, an eighteen shot punishing volley is going to sting.

By tree, are you talking about a Fectulant Gnarlmaw?

If so, what is it doing with that combination of units beside giving the Oblits +2 cover?

New to DG and Deamons so completely curious if I am missing something else on top of that.

Nothing much else. The havocs need to be Nurgle so they don't get killed by the tree. If someone tried to melee them it'd have a bad day because the tree will mortal wound them, and the units can fallback and still shoot and charge.

Having oblits with 3+ armor save vs overcharged plasma is pretty damn nice.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Nothing much else. The havocs need to be Nurgle so they don't get killed by the tree. If someone tried to melee them it'd have a bad day because the tree will mortal wound them, and the units can fallback and still shoot and charge.

Having oblits with 3+ armor save vs overcharged plasma is pretty damn nice.

Thanks!

I ran the numbers on some havoc heavy weapons and included a column adjusted for points.



EDIT: I had copied a cell wrong and originally calculated the lascannons as 34pts instead of 39. Fixed now. Doesn't change much.

As expected, the Reaper Chain Cannon is very good. And with access to re-rolls, it gets an even bigger lead due to the number of shots. However, the other weapons may be worth considering when you consider range. Even if you are willing to forward deploy your havocs, the chain cannons can get outmaneuvered or just be on the wrong area of the board. Longer range weapons have this problem less.

Without rerolls, Autocannons only compete vs Rhinos. Once re-roll 1's to hit is included, they compete vs vehicles and multi-wound models, especially with their range taken into account. Once re-roll 1's to wound comes in, the reaper pulls ahead on a bunch of targets, but the autocannon is still okay. It's probably worth it for the extra 24" of range if you want tank killers.

Heavy Bolters are basically the same profile and only a bit more range. They are about half as efficient most of the time, and only gain 12" range for it. Basically never gonna be worth it.

Lascannons are about even on multiwound models, and of course are solidly ahead vs vehicles and behind vs infantry. With re-rolls, the Chain Cannon narrows the gap a fair amount.

This is by model, so the champion isn't included here. Does he have to take a special weapon? Can he take a cheap combi-bolter? If he does have to take a special, then he's just a big points tax on the longer range weapons, but still can contribute with a plasma gun in the Chain Cannon squad.

I didn't bother included missile launchers because who even takes those.

My overall conclusion is that there's still a solid role for lascannons and autocannons. The las is nice for double shoot stratagem, and the shoot in your opponents turn if they went first strat. (assuming chain cannons aren't in range, or need to hide in a transport turn 1.) Autocannons are nice as maybe a third squad, or for cheaper units overall. You could put the Chain Cannons on your CSM squads and let the havocs be cheaper and longer ranged antivehicle.

So basically i am restarting one of my CSM warbands again:

I have a few key pieces i want to use and Cannonfodder is provided by my Soup forces.
Basically i want to go around with a decentish small ammount off marines and am now trying to think about how many marines i want to field:



I am now, since it is a pirate warband, considering useing the red corsair trait and stratagems,

and either decididing to buy 3x the csm Box to fill the troops with 2 5 man squads and a 20 man one for the Corsair tide shenanigans.

2 CSM boxes, split in 3x5 CSM and another squad of chosen or Havocs.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
I ran the numbers on some havoc heavy weapons and included a column adjusted for points.



As expected, the Reaper Chain Cannon is very good. And with access to re-rolls, it gets an even bigger lead due to the number of shots. However, the other weapons may be worth considering when you consider range. Even if you are willing to forward deploy your havocs, the chain cannons can get outmaneuvered or just be on the wrong area of the board. Longer range weapons have this problem less.

Without rerolls, Autocannons only compete vs Rhinos. Once re-roll 1's to hit is included, they compete vs vehicles and multi-wound models, especially with their range taken into account. Once re-roll 1's to wound comes in, the reaper pulls ahead on a bunch of targets, but the autocannon is still okay. It's probably worth it for the extra 24" of range if you want tank killers.

Heavy Bolters are basically the same profile and only a bit more range. They are about half as efficient most of the time, and only gain 12" range for it. Basically never gonna be worth it.

Lascannons are about even on multiwound models, and of course are solidly ahead vs vehicles and behind vs infantry. With re-rolls, the Chain Cannon narrows the gap a fair amount.

This is by model, so the champion isn't included here. Does he have to take a special weapon? Can he take a cheap combi-bolter? If he does have to take a special, then he's just a big points tax on the longer range weapons, but still can contribute with a plasma gun in the Chain Cannon squad.

I didn't bother included missile launchers because who even takes those.

My overall conclusion is that there's still a solid role for lascannons and autocannons. The las is nice for double shoot stratagem, and the shoot in your opponents turn if they went first strat. (assuming chain cannons aren't in range, or need to hide in a transport turn 1.) Autocannons are nice as maybe a third squad, or for cheaper units overall. You could put the Chain Cannons on your CSM squads and let the havocs be cheaper and longer ranged antivehicle.

Thanks for the great mathhammer!

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Marius Xerxes wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
I am liking Devastation battery with two Havoc squads and Nurgle Oblits by a tree. If an enemy unit moves forwards in the first turn, an eighteen shot punishing volley is going to sting.

By tree, are you talking about a Fectulant Gnarlmaw?

If so, what is it doing with that combination of units beside giving the Oblits +2 cover?

New to DG and Deamons so completely curious if I am missing something else on top of that.

Nothing much else. The havocs need to be Nurgle so they don't get killed by the tree. If someone tried to melee them it'd have a bad day because the tree will mortal wound them, and the units can fallback and still shoot and charge.

Having oblits with 3+ armor save vs overcharged plasma is pretty damn nice.

Nothing else in the detachment benefits, but accompanying Daemon Engines all get to Advance and shoot (and charge) for the entire of the first turn. With a LD, that’s Defilers advancing and hitting on 3’s. With Soulflrged WT, that’s Maulerfiends charging without Warptime. With Warptime, that’s a Defiler joining them.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
I ran the numbers on some havoc heavy weapons and included a column adjusted for points.



As expected, the Reaper Chain Cannon is very good. And with access to re-rolls, it gets an even bigger lead due to the number of shots. However, the other weapons may be worth considering when you consider range. Even if you are willing to forward deploy your havocs, the chain cannons can get outmaneuvered or just be on the wrong area of the board. Longer range weapons have this problem less.

Without rerolls, Autocannons only compete vs Rhinos. Once re-roll 1's to hit is included, they compete vs vehicles and multi-wound models, especially with their range taken into account. Once re-roll 1's to wound comes in, the reaper pulls ahead on a bunch of targets, but the autocannon is still okay. It's probably worth it for the extra 24" of range if you want tank killers.

Heavy Bolters are basically the same profile and only a bit more range. They are about half as efficient most of the time, and only gain 12" range for it. Basically never gonna be worth it.

Lascannons are about even on multiwound models, and of course are solidly ahead vs vehicles and behind vs infantry. With re-rolls, the Chain Cannon narrows the gap a fair amount.

This is by model, so the champion isn't included here. Does he have to take a special weapon? Can he take a cheap combi-bolter? If he does have to take a special, then he's just a big points tax on the longer range weapons, but still can contribute with a plasma gun in the Chain Cannon squad.

I didn't bother included missile launchers because who even takes those.

My overall conclusion is that there's still a solid role for lascannons and autocannons. The las is nice for double shoot stratagem, and the shoot in your opponents turn if they went first strat. (assuming chain cannons aren't in range, or need to hide in a transport turn 1.) Autocannons are nice as maybe a third squad, or for cheaper units overall. You could put the Chain Cannons on your CSM squads and let the havocs be cheaper and longer ranged antivehicle.

One thing to keep in mind about Lascannons is they pay a lot for AP, which is often a value ignored on tough models.

In regard to missile launchers, I take 1-2 for flakk missile strat. Hitting anything with fly keyword on a 2+ from 48" away and dealing d3 mortals is very good and often over looked. If you EC that unit you can dish out 2d3 in a pinch.

comes in handy vs armies like deathwatch that hug terrain and spam storm shields etc. That Vanguard vet gives the unit fly

 Red Corsair wrote:
In regard to missile launchers, I take 1-2 for flakk missile strat. Hitting anything with fly keyword on a 2+ from 48" away and dealing d3 mortals is very good and often over looked. If you EC that unit you can dish out 2d3 in a pinch.

comes in handy vs armies like deathwatch that hug terrain and spam storm shields etc. That Vanguard vet gives the unit fly

No they don't. They simply can fall back and shoot as though they fly.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/29/heretic-astartes-tactica-chaos-terminators/

Terminator Tactica is up. Probably not at all competitive but it does make me think about fielding a squad of lightning claw dudes. Relatively cheap, can threaten anything from Guardsmen to Predators and with the Brutal Subjugation stratagem can be turned into a real horde blender (well, as long as they aren't immune to morale). Can also be further upgunned with VotLW and the Black Legion stratagem to get extra attacks and actually stands a decent chance to make the charge from deep strike. But primarily because I've always wanted to field a squad of LC termies because it looks so damn cool but never did because it was too weak even for a casual game Now it looks at least usable there.

Pandabeer wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/29/heretic-astartes-tactica-chaos-terminators/

Terminator Tactica is up. Probably not at all competitive but it does make me think about fielding a squad of lightning claw dudes. Relatively cheap, can threaten anything from Guardsmen to Predators and with the Brutal Subjugation stratagem can be turned into a real horde blender (well, as long as they aren't immune to morale). Can also be further upgunned with VotLW and the Black Legion stratagem to get extra attacks and actually stands a decent chance to make the charge from deep strike. But primarily because I've always wanted to field a squad of LC termies because it looks so damn cool but never did because it was too weak even for a casual game Now it looks at least usable there.

The main problem is if they don't make that first charge they are screwed. Maybe if we could still warp time deep strikers this might be viable, but with no shooting attack they are all about that first charge.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
In regard to missile launchers, I take 1-2 for flakk missile strat. Hitting anything with fly keyword on a 2+ from 48" away and dealing d3 mortals is very good and often over looked. If you EC that unit you can dish out 2d3 in a pinch.

comes in handy vs armies like deathwatch that hug terrain and spam storm shields etc. That Vanguard vet gives the unit fly

No they don't. They simply can fall back and shoot as though they fly.

The unit still has a model with the fly keyword.

I may go the opposite way and bring 5 Plasma-nators with chainaxes for minimal investment in melee wargear. 200 points for some beefy 10 plasma shots sounds like fun, although Chosen are probably still better for that role despite being more fragile.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
In regard to missile launchers, I take 1-2 for flakk missile strat. Hitting anything with fly keyword on a 2+ from 48" away and dealing d3 mortals is very good and often over looked. If you EC that unit you can dish out 2d3 in a pinch.

comes in handy vs armies like deathwatch that hug terrain and spam storm shields etc. That Vanguard vet gives the unit fly

No they don't. They simply can fall back and shoot as though they fly.

The unit still has a model with the fly keyword.

No they don't. They just act like they do for Falling Back, and the model itself can move as if it had FLY.

 Red Corsair wrote:

The unit still has a model with the fly keyword.

No it doesnt. Its the same reason Bikes and Terminators in Veteran squads arent affected by the Beta Bolter rule at all times.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
In regard to missile launchers, I take 1-2 for flakk missile strat. Hitting anything with fly keyword on a 2+ from 48" away and dealing d3 mortals is very good and often over looked. If you EC that unit you can dish out 2d3 in a pinch.

comes in handy vs armies like deathwatch that hug terrain and spam storm shields etc. That Vanguard vet gives the unit fly

No they don't. They simply can fall back and shoot as though they fly.

The unit still has a model with the fly keyword.

I'm pretty sure the unit doesn't gain the Fly keyword. I'll recheck my codex after work, but I think the unit merely counts the model as having a jump pack for transport purposes. Same way they don't gain the Biker keyword with a Biker, which is why those Bikers in particular don't benefit from Beta Bolter while moving.

Crazy, I know.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
In regard to missile launchers, I take 1-2 for flakk missile strat. Hitting anything with fly keyword on a 2+ from 48" away and dealing d3 mortals is very good and often over looked. If you EC that unit you can dish out 2d3 in a pinch.

comes in handy vs armies like deathwatch that hug terrain and spam storm shields etc. That Vanguard vet gives the unit fly

No they don't. They simply can fall back and shoot as though they fly.

The unit still has a model with the fly keyword.

I'm pretty sure the unit doesn't gain the Fly keyword. I'll recheck my codex after work, but I think the unit merely counts the model as having a jump pack for transport purposes. Same way they don't gain the Biker keyword with a Biker, which is why those Bikers in particular don't benefit from Beta Bolter while moving.

Crazy, I know.

Crap, well that takes an arrow out of my quiver

Man deaathwatch are annoying at the moment lol Sorry for the hick up fellas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, silly errors aside I still like the utility of having a couple flakk missile options in a list if I can sprinkle them in since they at least work well on a lot of eldar units and things like custodes bikes etc.

My chaos space marine army will be quite gunline oriented I think. Couple of CSM squads with auto cannons then a couple of cultist blobs to screen them with the crux of the forge being 2 X 3 oblits and a havoc squad.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Man deaathwatch are annoying at the moment lol Sorry for the hick up fellas.

S'all good. DW rules are absurdly specific, and there's more than one quirk like that that has significant play implications.

Kinda like they can add +1 to wound almost anything. Anything but a troop transport........ bwa hahahaha. Rhinos are harder to hurt than predators. :p

So is it just me or is Brazen Beasts like...REALLY nice as a legion choice?

 vaklor4 wrote:
So is it just me or is Brazen Beasts like...REALLY nice as a legion choice?

It's better than World Eaters at least.

Really wanted to do either iron warriors or red corsairs but the combos are pressing me towards alpha legion. I've never really been a big fan of them though and can't be bothered to paint them up in alpha legion colours. Very much leaning towards red corsairs.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Really wanted to do either iron warriors or red corsairs but the combos are pressing me towards alpha legion. I've never really been a big fan of them though and can't be bothered to paint them up in alpha legion colours. Very much leaning towards red corsairs.

Well look at it from a positive angle, red Corsairs can field csm regulars and not feel bad about it, also more CP for Oblits, Havocs etc so whilest nurgle alpha legion might be now the King of durability in the book i say red Corsairs will be the most versatile due to cp.