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I actually kinda like brazen beasts for a hellforge pack weirdly enough. Their strategem for mortal wounds is actually pretty above average.

Well, I tried to make such a list. I can't fit everything into it .. lol. You have to choose if you want to go shooty with cultist line (skip the zerkers) or fighty with zerkers and skip the Oblits.

If you really insist on having all elements. You are probably looking at just 1 zerker squad, 1 or 2 chain cannon squads and 1 Oblit squad.

The chain cannon squad is relatively cheap. But the zerker squad is over 300 points and so is the Oblit squad (based on 115 per model). You simply can't easily spam multiple units of both. lol

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So...let's see
Brazen Beasts with Warp Talons in a Raptorial Host. You're more likely to make the charge, and it'd be easier to get off the AP-4 on the charge thing.

Didn't really see that discussed but I think it does have a small amount of merit. Not sure if it's worth it though.

I think you'd rather be World Eaters than Brazen Beasts, generally. +1A and access to Veterans of the Long War trumps two extra points of AP (on less than half of your attacks).

 MinMax wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So...let's see
Brazen Beasts with Warp Talons in a Raptorial Host. You're more likely to make the charge, and it'd be easier to get off the AP-4 on the charge thing.

Didn't really see that discussed but I think it does have a small amount of merit. Not sure if it's worth it though.

I think you'd rather be World Eaters than Brazen Beasts, generally. +1A and access to Veterans of the Long War trumps two extra points of AP (on less than half of your attacks).

Raptors actually benefit more from Brazen Beasts than warp talons do. And Warp Talons only get a minimal advantage from the extra AP against most targets. Raptors aren't as good, but they are a lot cheaper!

Overall though, how does a Host Raptorial bomb compare to just running a daemons bloodletter bomb?

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 MinMax wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So...let's see
your attacks).

Raptors actually benefit more from Brazen Beasts than warp talons do. And Warp Talons only get a minimal advantage from the extra AP against most targets. Raptors aren't as good, but they are a lot cheaper!

Overall though, how does a Host Raptorial bomb compare to just running a daemons bloodletter bomb?

I think a bloodletter bomb is alot more choppy. But Raptorial bomb (if made up of raptors) is more about being able to bring some plasma pistols or plasma guns, so you can shoot and then charge in. If you really want to kill something, you are probably relying more on the negative morale, kill 1 or 3, and force them to take morale tests so that the rest run away. By themselves, raptors aren't very choppy because their weapons are just chainswords with 0 AP. If its a warptalon bomb, then its alot more choppy, can be as nearly as choppy as a bloodletter bomb, but warp talons are very expensive in points. The only good thing is that you can't overwatch them on the turn they deep strike in.

The key difference in the two bombs is Overwatch immunity and Legion/Deity bonuses. It’s niche, because they’re both charging from outside 9” and thus don’t care about flamers and the like, but WTs can perfectly do the aggressive tanking on things like T’au castles and factions with improved OW hit rolls. If a unit’s guns kills 11 Bletters, it’s done a pretty good job of speedbumping them. WTs never worry about being shot as they tag units.

OTOH, the Bletters can accompany charge re-rolls for Maulers and LDs, which comes with DTW coverage (Karanak) or Knight-killing (Axeprince). And the lovely Possession Stratagem, which can kill a carefully concealed support psyker (marvellous psyop).

 MinMax wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So...let's see
Brazen Beasts with Warp Talons in a Raptorial Host. You're more likely to make the charge, and it'd be easier to get off the AP-4 on the charge thing.

Didn't really see that discussed but I think it does have a small amount of merit. Not sure if it's worth it though.

I think you'd rather be World Eaters than Brazen Beasts, generally. +1A and access to Veterans of the Long War trumps two extra points of AP (on less than half of your attacks).

VotLW would never get used on Warp Talons anyway unless the target was T8. Otherwise, the difference in performance is minimal to the point that VotLW is basically always used on a shooting unit.

Also the fact that World Eaters need to make the charge is bad and that's why they're one of the worst Legions, whereas Brazen Beasts are on the first combat round.

The Blood Altar is also interesting, especially since they hinted that it could be summoned. You can use an unaligned MoP, use the strat to give him all the marks for a turn, use Incursion to drop the altar somewhere in the midfield. Combine him with Cursed Earth and you've got 3++ Khornate Daemon Engines. Still debating the best use for this, Lord of Skulls is the fairly obvious one, but he doesn't like to sit still, neither does the Ravager, Decimators with Butcher Cannons are pretty cheap though and are quite happy to camp out.

Has anyone played a game with running 3 of the new Oblitorators yet?

 xeen wrote:
Has anyone played a game with running 3 of the new Oblitorators yet?

Yes they're expensive but amazing when you pioe on buffs. Played Alpha Legion and a MOP, dropped in turn 2 killed 2 leman russ with EC, VotLW. They then killed other armour, iirc 2 bastalisks and a Chimera. With cursed earth and AL trait they're reasonably tough, one managed to survive till the end.

Needs more testing but I think they might work even at 115 points.

Also devestation battery lascannon havocks are funny. Shot 9 wounds off a leman russ befire the game had started!

Yep ran a squad this last weekend during a tournament of 3. 345 pts is really expensive but oh my god can they just cut the heart out of an opponent.

First game vs space marines with 2 repulsers and a 10 man hellblaster squad he focused everything on my lord of skulls (which he got down to 4 wounds). The oblits stepped up, cast warptime and delightful agonizes on them to get a bit closer, stood next to abadon, and i rolled 6,6,5 giving them str 9, ap-3, 3d. They did 33 unsaved wounds to the first repulser, then fired again wiping the 10 man hellblaster squad out with kills to spare.

Next turn i rolled 4,3,3 so str 8, ap-2, 2d and i still managed to kill the 2nd repulsar outright leaving just a contemptor dreadnought left to deal with the lord of skulls (which had healed up to 12 wounds left so it was perfectly fine just going on a rampage with little that could hurt it).


2nd game they killed 7 biovores the turn they dropped in, then killed 8 heavy weapons teams in their next shooting phase (wasnt anything left in range that they needed to slaughter so goodbye weapon teams).

Oblits are nasty.

I am a huge fan of Possessed and I always field at least one unit of 10 even if they have been not great compared to Berserkers... but the new rules got me thinking.

10 Possessed + Greater Possessed + Herald get S7 base. Add a Master of Possession with Shepherd of the True Faith Warlord Trait and the Daemonkin Ritualist Detachment. Suddenly you can use the Vessels for the Neverborn stratagem and have - potentially - up to S8 AP -2 40 attacks generating mortal wounds on each 6. And that is without additional tricks such as Boon of Change, Mutated Invigoration, etc. Daemon Prince, Exalted Champion and a Dark Apostle could make this bomb devastating on close combat.

What are your thoughts on this? Could it work?

 ochobits wrote:
I am a huge fan of Possessed and I always field at least one unit of 10 even if they have been not great compared to Berserkers... but the new rules got me thinking.

10 Possessed + Greater Possessed + Herald get S7 base. Add a Master of Possession with Shepherd of the True Faith Warlord Trait and the Daemonkin Ritualist Detachment. Suddenly you can use the Vessels for the Neverborn stratagem and have - potentially - up to S8 AP -2 40 attacks generating mortal wounds on each 6. And that is without additional tricks such as Boon of Change, Mutated Invigoration, etc. Daemon Prince, Exalted Champion and a Dark Apostle could make this bomb devastating on close combat.

What are your thoughts on this? Could it work?

20ppm footslogging infantry with nothing but a 5++ to protect them. Outlook not look good.

 ochobits wrote:
I am a huge fan of Possessed and I always field at least one unit of 10 even if they have been not great compared to Berserkers... but the new rules got me thinking.

10 Possessed + Greater Possessed + Herald get S7 base. Add a Master of Possession with Shepherd of the True Faith Warlord Trait and the Daemonkin Ritualist Detachment. Suddenly you can use the Vessels for the Neverborn stratagem and have - potentially - up to S8 AP -2 40 attacks generating mortal wounds on each 6. And that is without additional tricks such as Boon of Change, Mutated Invigoration, etc. Daemon Prince, Exalted Champion and a Dark Apostle could make this bomb devastating on close combat.

What are your thoughts on this? Could it work?

if you mostly play casual/narrative games yes can work, outside of it it is not.

 blackmage wrote:

 ochobits wrote:
I am a huge fan of Possessed and I always field at least one unit of 10 even if they have been not great compared to Berserkers... but the new rules got me thinking.

10 Possessed + Greater Possessed + Herald get S7 base. Add a Master of Possession with Shepherd of the True Faith Warlord Trait and the Daemonkin Ritualist Detachment. Suddenly you can use the Vessels for the Neverborn stratagem and have - potentially - up to S8 AP -2 40 attacks generating mortal wounds on each 6. And that is without additional tricks such as Boon of Change, Mutated Invigoration, etc. Daemon Prince, Exalted Champion and a Dark Apostle could make this bomb devastating on close combat.

What are your thoughts on this? Could it work?

if you mostly play casual/narrative games yes can work, outside of it it is not.

Yes, that is my case - and I don't think I'm ever playing competitive. But I think I got your point: delivery would be the flaw of that list.

 ochobits wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

 ochobits wrote:
I am a huge fan of Possessed and I always field at least one unit of 10 even if they have been not great compared to Berserkers... but the new rules got me thinking.

10 Possessed + Greater Possessed + Herald get S7 base. Add a Master of Possession with Shepherd of the True Faith Warlord Trait and the Daemonkin Ritualist Detachment. Suddenly you can use the Vessels for the Neverborn stratagem and have - potentially - up to S8 AP -2 40 attacks generating mortal wounds on each 6. And that is without additional tricks such as Boon of Change, Mutated Invigoration, etc. Daemon Prince, Exalted Champion and a Dark Apostle could make this bomb devastating on close combat.

What are your thoughts on this? Could it work?

if you mostly play casual/narrative games yes can work, outside of it it is not.

Yes, that is my case - and I don't think I'm ever playing competitive. But I think I got your point: delivery would be the flaw of that list.

Make them Alpha Legion and you get to do 9" move before the battle for 1CP. Then you move 7". Then cast Warp time on them for another 7". That moves you up 23" turn 1 which could plausibly put you within charge range if your opponent isn´t careful. Take a Dark Apostle for when you don´t get first turn to make them an additional -1 to hit.

Now this all depends on spending command points and succeeding with spells and prayers but if you have 20 Possessed lying around you might as well try it. Should be fun.

Ok so for anyone that does have a new book or leak, I wanna run a Deamon Forged list with 3 Lord Discordants. What is the best build for this. Mark/Legion/Relic/WLTrait? And would a Supreme Command Detachment be good or use them in a Battalion? The rest of the list would be Maulerfiends and Venomcrawlers, besides the Basic CSM troops and possibly Oblits and Havocs.

I have heard talk about Marking one Nurgle, with A abilitiy to half damage. Any help iss appreciated.

BigBrown wrote:

 ochobits wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

 ochobits wrote:
I am a huge fan of Possessed and I always field at least one unit of 10 even if they have been not great compared to Berserkers... but the new rules got me thinking.

10 Possessed + Greater Possessed + Herald get S7 base. Add a Master of Possession with Shepherd of the True Faith Warlord Trait and the Daemonkin Ritualist Detachment. Suddenly you can use the Vessels for the Neverborn stratagem and have - potentially - up to S8 AP -2 40 attacks generating mortal wounds on each 6. And that is without additional tricks such as Boon of Change, Mutated Invigoration, etc. Daemon Prince, Exalted Champion and a Dark Apostle could make this bomb devastating on close combat.

What are your thoughts on this? Could it work?

if you mostly play casual/narrative games yes can work, outside of it it is not.

Yes, that is my case - and I don't think I'm ever playing competitive. But I think I got your point: delivery would be the flaw of that list.

Make them Alpha Legion and you get to do 9" move before the battle for 1CP. Then you move 7". Then cast Warp time on them for another 7". That moves you up 23" turn 1 which could plausibly put you within charge range if your opponent isn´t careful. Take a Dark Apostle for when you don´t get first turn to make them an additional -1 to hit.

Now this all depends on spending command points and succeeding with spells and prayers but if you have 20 Possessed lying around you might as well try it. Should be fun.

Yup. I run Alpha Legion and used that trick the other day. The only problem is that the other units - Greater Possessed, Herald and Daemon Prince - couldn't follow the same pace and got late to the party, so all the Possessed were dead. But it was fun indeed .

Looking at Lightning Claw terminators. Still not much good, right? I mean a single LC plus Combi-bolter is cheaper and will probably do more damage...

Terminator heavy weapons much good?

I’d like to build Abaddon and four Termie squads, one for each deity... can’t think of much to give them variety and theming. I guess plasma Slaaneshi, bolter Nurgle, and gimmicky flamer Tzeentch & Melta Khorne? They won’t be great, but I’d only take twenty terminators in a narrative type game anyway.

I'm floating over the order button for a Kytan as I think he and 3x Lord Discordant are undeniable threats that will draw all fire, while the other 1000pts of army is likely relatively unmolested.

Am I right in thinking the only way to get Kytan in the Daemon Engine special formation is via Supreme Command, as someone mentioned earlier? What Legion would be best for that detachment?

Could anyone think of any new tricks to mess with a Tau castle?

Edit: I'm thinking Riptide screen with chaff and Drones to tank wounds.

The trick to tau castles is target priority and smart weapons useage.

Tau players keep their drones for tanking big guns aimed at their suits typically. A few things to consiser - target the fire warriors first. Their "help" in overwatch is what really makes tau overwatch so good. They need to die first.

Then target drones properly. If you are firing big guns (las cannon or the like) fire at the suits. But anti infantry weapons can do a number on the drones themselves. Try and kill them 2nd.

Large bike squads with mos, cheap term squads with mos, and oblits with mos can do wonders. Drop that oblit squad in with a sorcerer, cast delightful agonies and prescience on them, and let the dice roll dictate who your going to shoot. With the bikes and terms remember we only want to be 24" away, no closer. This lets us get our full shooting without letting the fire warriors get their double tap stuff.

Mortal wounds generated by psycic powers can not be passed off to a drone. The faq says that shooting and melee attacks are considered attacks for the drone wound pass off. Psycic attacks are neirher of these.

Good luck. Without an idea of what your taking its kinda hard to do more than general advice.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
20ppm footslogging infantry with nothing but a 5++ to protect them. Outlook not look good.

It's sketchy for sure.

However, under the right circumstances, they could be dead hard. Alpha Legion + Prayer to make them -2 to hit if you lose initiative, with a 2+ save for Prepared Positions. In that case the squad is probably in good shape to survive the first turn with a majority of the unit still intact. If you get first turn and they're Khorne you have some interesting options given that you can summon the Altar of Blood. An unaligned MoP can use the strat to get all the marks, summon the Altar, put down Cursed Earth and now that squad is rolling with a 3++.

However, that is a lot of infrastructure built around a single unit. Of course, you can put in a lot of other Khorne-flavored daemonic shenanigans into the army to take advantage of that same infrastructure if you want.

Also, more and more, with the various new prayers and auras and such, Warptime feels like it's losing a little luster, since it feels like I'm taking a buffed unit and launching them out of the buff zone to leave their butt in the wind. The Lord of Skulls is one of the few models I've been comfortable doing this with.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I'm floating over the order button for a Kytan as I think he and 3x Lord Discordant are undeniable threats that will draw all fire, while the other 1000pts of army is likely relatively unmolested.

Am I right in thinking the only way to get Kytan in the Daemon Engine special formation is via Supreme Command, as someone mentioned earlier? What Legion would be best for that detachment?

Technically, you could field a super heavy detachment and nominate it. I mean, you’d get no HQ or HE slots, but it’s there. SC is the only way to get HQ & LoW. ...SC does have an Elite slot as well, if you’re got a Decimator.

As for the Legion: Iron Warriors. You can spend a CP to give the Kytan a 6+++. LoW’s are about the only units on which it’s a good, efficient Stratagem.

Honourable mention to World Eaters; access to a 4+ DTW can really infuriate Magnus when he casts Smite on a 14.

It’s the DE formation that unlocks a +2” Warlord Trait, right? Or am I thinking of Black Legion?

Azuza001 wrote:
The trick to tau castles is target priority and smart weapons useage.

Tau players keep their drones for tanking big guns aimed at their suits typically. A few things to consiser - target the fire warriors first. Their "help" in overwatch is what really makes tau overwatch so good. They need to die first.

Then target drones properly. If you are firing big guns (las cannon or the like) fire at the suits. But anti infantry weapons can do a number on the drones themselves. Try and kill them 2nd.

Large bike squads with mos, cheap term squads with mos, and oblits with mos can do wonders. Drop that oblit squad in with a sorcerer, cast delightful agonies and prescience on them, and let the dice roll dictate who your going to shoot. With the bikes and terms remember we only want to be 24" away, no closer. This lets us get our full shooting without letting the fire warriors get their double tap stuff.

Mortal wounds generated by psycic powers can not be passed off to a drone. The faq says that shooting and melee attacks are considered attacks for the drone wound pass off. Psycic attacks are neirher of these.

Good luck. Without an idea of what your taking its kinda hard to do more than general advice.

Thanks for the advice!

My main army is actually GSC, and I tend to lose 50% of it in the first 2 turns due to shooting/overwatch.

I have the beginning of a Chaos army, with some CSM, some Berzerkers, gakloads of IG/neophyte hybrids I could use as Cultists, a unit of 20 Bloodletters, a Khorne DP with Axe and a WoK Bloodthirster.

When I saw the new release of the new CSM, I thought I could invest some money into this army and try to make it work against Tau, but the only thing I could come up with is an Alpha Legion battalion for the -1 to Hit, the new Dark Apostle to stack another -1.

I'm thinking the termies might be a good idea... I don't see Fire warriors dislodging so easily a unit of -2 to Hit termies sitting on an objective...
The new Havocs are also very tempting.

Not sure what to think about the Warp Talons. They seem good on paper with the no overwatch rule and the new detachment for +2" to charge, but I fear they will arrive too late.

Lazaris wrote:
Not sure what to think about the Warp Talons. They seem good on paper with the no overwatch rule and the new detachment for +2" to charge, but I fear they will arrive too late.

Warp Talons are interesting against Tau, for sure.

Turn 2 deep strikes against an entrenched gunline are fine so long as you can protect your other units until the assault.

But don't mistake them for a silver bullet. Overwatch immunity only counts the turn the unit arrives, some Crisis Suits can wipe the floor with them, and a proper castle is going to have a great screen that exposes the Warp Talons to shooting turn 3. The fact they have no shooting works against you when you're targeting units with drones, you just have that many more things to fight through once they charge. Plus there's the cost to think about.

My solution would be 60 Bloodletters, split into 2 units, arriving via Denizens of the Warp. Let brute force and numbers achieve what finesse can't accomplish. And I'd be looking at that new Altar for a 4+ invul save on the Bloodletters. Overwatch doesn't mean as much when you ignore 50% of the shots.

 lindsay40k wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I'm floating over the order button for a Kytan as I think he and 3x Lord Discordant are undeniable threats that will draw all fire, while the other 1000pts of army is likely relatively unmolested.

Am I right in thinking the only way to get Kytan in the Daemon Engine special formation is via Supreme Command, as someone mentioned earlier? What Legion would be best for that detachment?

Technically, you could field a super heavy detachment and nominate it. I mean, you’d get no HQ or HE slots, but it’s there. SC is the only way to get HQ & LoW. ...SC does have an Elite slot as well, if you’re got a Decimator.

As for the Legion: Iron Warriors. You can spend a CP to give the Kytan a 6+++. LoW’s are about the only units on which it’s a good, efficient Stratagem.

Honourable mention to World Eaters; access to a 4+ DTW can really infuriate Magnus when he casts Smite on a 14.

It’s the DE formation that unlocks a +2” Warlord Trait, right? Or am I thinking of Black Legion?

That and you need it for the run+charge strategem.

 ochobits wrote:

BigBrown wrote:

 ochobits wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

 ochobits wrote:
I am a huge fan of Possessed and I always field at least one unit of 10 even if they have been not great compared to Berserkers... but the new rules got me thinking.

10 Possessed + Greater Possessed + Herald get S7 base. Add a Master of Possession with Shepherd of the True Faith Warlord Trait and the Daemonkin Ritualist Detachment. Suddenly you can use the Vessels for the Neverborn stratagem and have - potentially - up to S8 AP -2 40 attacks generating mortal wounds on each 6. And that is without additional tricks such as Boon of Change, Mutated Invigoration, etc. Daemon Prince, Exalted Champion and a Dark Apostle could make this bomb devastating on close combat.

What are your thoughts on this? Could it work?

if you mostly play casual/narrative games yes can work, outside of it it is not.

Yes, that is my case - and I don't think I'm ever playing competitive. But I think I got your point: delivery would be the flaw of that list.

Make them Alpha Legion and you get to do 9" move before the battle for 1CP. Then you move 7". Then cast Warp time on them for another 7". That moves you up 23" turn 1 which could plausibly put you within charge range if your opponent isn´t careful. Take a Dark Apostle for when you don´t get first turn to make them an additional -1 to hit.

Now this all depends on spending command points and succeeding with spells and prayers but if you have 20 Possessed lying around you might as well try it. Should be fun.

Yup. I run Alpha Legion and used that trick the other day. The only problem is that the other units - Greater Possessed, Herald and Daemon Prince - couldn't follow the same pace and got late to the party, so all the Possessed were dead. But it was fun indeed .

but you can use an apostole and a master of possession they can follow them, -1 to hit +1 inv save and if you have point to invest a sorcerer with delightful agonies,, they could be hard nut to crack, you need 3cp but if you like play around with a large blob of possessed that can be really interesting

What are people thinking about CSM squads v. cultists in the battalion now? Due to the way CP work, it is basically mandatory to have one battalion. Generally this includes two HQ plus three units of cultists.

However, with the chain-gun you can now get a squad of 5 CSM with a combi-bolter on champ for 8 st 5 -1 d1 shots plus 10 bolter shots for only 35 more points than a squad of 10 cultists with auto rifles and heavy stubber.. So for 105 points you get three of these squads over the cultists. I run a 10 man squad of cultists now and I can count on one hand the number of wounds they have causes over the last 3 or 4 games.

I can only think of one game I have played in all of 8th where they have done more than a wound or two to the enemy. So they basically are campers for objectives, and hopefully they will not be shot at because even with crap weapons they die pretty quick. In contrast, while CSM and bolters are not all that effective, having the chain-gun put out 8 basically heavy bolter shots seems like it would be much more useful, and pretty damaging.

Also, you can use Red Corsairs for an extra 3 CP on that battalion, or you can always leave one cultists squad and save some points.

So is it worth the extra points to use the chain-gun CSM over cultists in people's minds?

The red Corsairs marine battalion is mathemathically about as efficient as a guard battalion at providing cp / point.

Imo, i belive that we will see a red Corsairs battalion replacing cp Generation for Chaos.
That said, i tend to think it will be as cheap as possible to achieve that.