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The problem with the Kytan is still the same: if you don't get first turn, it will die and you will be left with a lord discordant and a few support characters that won't do much.

Didn’t think you could make multiple Warlords Discordant?

 grouchoben wrote:
DS'ing your havocs' transports makes them a bit pointless - they're for clearing chaff, and T2 is getting late for that, with the tools chaos has now to make T1 charges. Rhino is smallest and cheapest, I think it wins unfortunately. But if your opponent can afford to shoot your rhino, you didn't being enough horrifying prospects imo.

A unit of Chain-Havocs for clearing chaff would be incredibly useful, yes, but having one deepstrike in T2 to, say, remove an enemy unit from an objective is nice. And they're useful for more than clearing chaff - 4 chaincannons and a combi-bolter without HQ support can do ~11 wounds to a Leman Russ Battle Tank with VotlW & Cacophony if necessary. I'll admit that's 3CP spent on a unit that would rather fire at infantry, but it shows they have the potential for versatility - I'd happily spend CP to make a unit that's already good at one task capable of dealing with a different kind of threat.
Bear in mind a Termite can fit another 5-man squad and 2 HQs/a 6-man Chosen squad and 1 HQ in alongside them, giving buffs to damage output and/or resilience depending on whether you go for a Lord, Sorc, or both - the Termite can hold its own, too.

It’s a good point that the chaingun’s ROF has got enough punch behind it to come through in a pinch. It’s a rare opponent who provides every one of our units with a perfect target.

Only it will not die. Not with -1 to hit. A castelan does not kill a kytan with -1 to hit; takes off closer to 12~ wounds. Because they get to ignore the -1 to hit, double shooting dark reapers who get doom off do better, but still only get 18 wounds or so. And the doom is going to be hardly a sure thing; you'll be in deny range. And, even if they do get it off, if they are using Yvraine a farseer and dark reapers, that is almost 600 points to kill 415 points. I mean, sure that is decent, but only decent given that the kytan is likely to live and get to act at full strength.

drakerocket wrote:
Only it will not die. Not with -1 to hit. A castelan does not kill a kytan with -1 to hit; takes off closer to 12~ wounds. Because they get to ignore the -1 to hit, double shooting dark reapers who get doom off do better, but still only get 18 wounds or so. And the doom is going to be hardly a sure thing; you'll be in deny range. And, even if they do get it off, if they are using Yvraine a farseer and dark reapers, that is almost 600 points to kill 415 points. I mean, sure that is decent, but only decent given that the kytan is likely to live and get to act at full strength.

Sorry if I missed something, but how do you get the -1 to hit if you go 2nd?

Lazaris wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
Only it will not die. Not with -1 to hit. A castelan does not kill a kytan with -1 to hit; takes off closer to 12~ wounds. Because they get to ignore the -1 to hit, double shooting dark reapers who get doom off do better, but still only get 18 wounds or so. And the doom is going to be hardly a sure thing; you'll be in deny range. And, even if they do get it off, if they are using Yvraine a farseer and dark reapers, that is almost 600 points to kill 415 points. I mean, sure that is decent, but only decent given that the kytan is likely to live and get to act at full strength.

Sorry if I missed something, but how do you get the -1 to hit if you go 2nd?

Willpower alone

Lazaris wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
Only it will not die. Not with -1 to hit. A castelan does not kill a kytan with -1 to hit; takes off closer to 12~ wounds. Because they get to ignore the -1 to hit, double shooting dark reapers who get doom off do better, but still only get 18 wounds or so. And the doom is going to be hardly a sure thing; you'll be in deny range. And, even if they do get it off, if they are using Yvraine a farseer and dark reapers, that is almost 600 points to kill 415 points. I mean, sure that is decent, but only decent given that the kytan is likely to live and get to act at full strength.

Sorry if I missed something, but how do you get the -1 to hit if you go 2nd?

The dark apostle ^^

taetrius67 wrote:

Lazaris wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
Only it will not die. Not with -1 to hit. A castelan does not kill a kytan with -1 to hit; takes off closer to 12~ wounds. Because they get to ignore the -1 to hit, double shooting dark reapers who get doom off do better, but still only get 18 wounds or so. And the doom is going to be hardly a sure thing; you'll be in deny range. And, even if they do get it off, if they are using Yvraine a farseer and dark reapers, that is almost 600 points to kill 415 points. I mean, sure that is decent, but only decent given that the kytan is likely to live and get to act at full strength.

Sorry if I missed something, but how do you get the -1 to hit if you go 2nd?

The dark apostle ^^

To clarify, the Dark Apostle's Prayers happen at the START OF THE BATTLE ROUND-so that's player one turn one, even if you're not that player.

THAT. IS. AMAZING.

I feel like the idea of a Havok Squad being given Chainguns starts to look better alongside the 'Punishing Volley' strat:

'Punishing Volley (1 CP): Use at the end of your opponents first movement phase if you did not go first. Pick a DEVASTATION BATTERY unit from your army. That unit may shoot as if it were the shooting phase.'

I don't know that it's worth planning around, but there's a certain appeal to the psychological effect on an opponent that knows this may be coming - they'd have to make very different decisions in their movement phase potentially.
You aren't having to feel the unit was a complete waste if it get's shot to pieces in the first turn (and it may not, if everything has moved to hide from it to avoid the strat), because it still got to get that first volley out.

Food for thought.

I like the idea of taking 3×2 units of Oblits, probably as The Purge with my Death Guard and Nurgle Daemons.

Get stuck in combat with some Nurglings and just blast away indiscriminately at the little lords.

Also, doesnt the Devastation battery (or whatever) seem redundant if you are Iron Warriors?

I always deepstriked my oblis, but now with all the bew options im seriously thinking abouth starting theem on the board front and center. Make them al and get the da for a safe -2 to hit, if you go second give them cover and uses the awesome awesome volley stratagem to punish something that comes in range. Range might be a problem so i would also have a las/ml havoc squad for volley if the enemy doesn't get in range with anything

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I like the idea of taking 3×2 units of Oblits, probably as The Purge with my Death Guard and Nurgle Daemons.

Get stuck in combat with some Nurglings and just blast away indiscriminately at the little lords.

Also, doesnt the Devastation battery (or whatever) seem redundant if you are Iron Warriors?

That's actually a really cool idea. lol

On the devastation battery detachment. Yeah, its the same as Iron warriors, but even on iron warriors that thing about buildings hardly ever get used. Its the other strategem that is good. The one where on 1 cp, if you didn't go first, you get to shoot one unit at the opponent's army after the end of his movement phase.

So "You finished moving and thought you could shoot my lascannon havoc squad off the board before I have the chance to do anything? Here's a strategem that lets me shoot even before you shoot even though you went first! Hah!"

It seems that combi-plasma terminators are now extremely affordable since all these items have come down in price. 26+1+11 = 38 for chain axe+combi plasma now? That's not that high a price considering the firepower they can bring. Alpha Legion ones will be especially durable. Take a squad of 10 slaaneshi ones and deploy it up close with the strat, or just take units of 5 to be high damage mid fielders. Probably put in a chainfist per 5.

Well, Alpha legion trait works only over 12 inches. But with your terminators, if you are using plasma, you kind of want to get within 12 inches, and then the Alpha legion trait doesn't work. :( But yup, deploying a unit of terminators doesn't sound half bad now, with their drop in points. And if you go cheap for the Abalative wounds on your first or second terminator, its just 29 points. Then you won't feel so bad about them dying until maybe the third or fourth terminator. Actually, even combi bolter chain axe terminators aren't really bad. still str 5 -1AP in melee and shoots out 4 shots per turn per model. This is even while moving because of the new bolter discipline.

Alpha legion terminators would work well if you are marching them up the board.

So on average a lord discordant will do 13-14 wounds to knight when he charges and has elixir + daemon forge.

(Note I averaged d3 damage to 2 for my ease, and also have not included mecha tendrils because they are basically pointless)

Spear: 5 attacks * 35/36 (hitting on 2s, rerolling)4.866111 * 8/9 (wounding on 3’s re-rolling) = 4.321 wounds * 2/3 (knight has 5+ armor save) = 2.88 * 2 =

5.71 damage

Mounts claws: 5 attacks * 35/36 (hitting on 2s, rerolling)4.866111 * 3/4 (wounding on 4’s re-trolling) = 3.6458 * 2/3 (knight has 5+ save)= 2.43 * 2 =

4.86 damage

Techno virus injector

1 * 35/36( you know the drill) .97 hits * 8/9 = .864 wounds. Knight get no save so it’s d3 + d3 mortal wounds damage for an average of 4 damage for ,864 * 4 =

3.46 damage (note this damage is more all or nothing then previous averages. You’ll either not wound (thereby doing nothing) or expect and avenge of 4 wounds)

So assuming you hit with the injector, the lord will do a likely 14 wounds to a knight. That’s pretty good for likely 2 CP and a 160 point model with relic. Even assuming the lord fails to killl the knight, his crack back swings are unlikely to be very dangerous (as the knight will likely be degraded, and the lord has his -1 to hit aura.)

I really think running at least two of this guy will become the norm, as the mecha tendral relic is also very good.

The mecha tendril becomes good when you are facing hoards and you take the mecha tendril relic. Instead of just 2 attacks, the number of attacks on your mechatendrisl become the number of all models in base contact with your LOD (and it has a big base!). So if a bunch of orcs or tyranids, or even guardsmen tried to crowd around you and beat you to death, your relic mechatendrils snake out in all directions and do 20 attacks if you have 20 models around you lol.

I have been thinking about the new Dark Apostle. He seems to work best in a foot slogging army. The key thing is that his prayer go off at the start of the turn, so he is actually better with protective prayers rather than offensive ones.

He has the -1 to hit prayer of course. But he has an aura prayer that gives all all legion models within 6 inches a 5++ invul save. So, if you put relatively fragile models within 6 inches of him, they get a 5++ This is not bad. And then at the start of the turn when you know everything on your side is going to charge, you switch to using the default dark zealotry that makes all units within 6 inches of you reroll hits in close combat. And then if everything around you is dead or you need to turn yourself into a fighty hero in a pinch, then you go mark of khorne and cast the prayer that gives +2 strength on yourself. I think combined with your black mace, or cursed cruzius, you are going to be at str 9 lol. You will be able to wound even knights on a 3+ by then. And fury of khorne does let you attack twice. So, yeah, you can suddenly give an unsuspecting knight a big scare. All three prayers can be taken if you go Khornite dark apostle.

And it just happens that berzerkers are the most fragile, but killy things that would love a 5++ invul save too. So, you surround your DA with berserkers. Start of turn, the 5++ aura goes up, and there is nothing the opponent can do about it. Then charge up the field with your Khorne berserkers. Whether you go renegade red corsairs for the advance and charge, or alpha legion so that you can forward operative both the DA and the Berserkers up the field is up to you. And incidentally, Khorne berserkers love that reroll to hit aura as well. (They always have). And to make it fluffy, a DA must have his followers right? So run a screen of cultists in front of your DA and berserkers and take that specialist detachment. The whole mass can charge down one flank screaming crazily... lol

Just make sure you aren't facing Vindicare Assasins... (every strategy has its weakness right? you can't have everything lol).

 grouchoben wrote:
DS'ing your havocs' transports makes them a bit pointless - they're for clearing chaff, and T2 is getting late for that, with the tools chaos has now to make T1 charges. Rhino is smallest and cheapest, I think it wins unfortunately. But if your opponent can afford to shoot your rhino, you didn't being enough horrifying prospects imo.

I disagree that they are specifically for clearing chaf. Can they? Absolutely! But they also shred almost any hard target as well. A termite with two units of these from a legion marked slaanesh will barf out 96 shots, 64 of which will be +1 to wound with VoTLW. You get them near a reroll like abby or Kharne, or prescience them and use a lord and things just die. It's a bit expensive, but that is something that will really factor into how your opponent plays. because when they arrive they could end the game.

Actually form a devastation battery you can get reroll 1's for both wounding and hitting, meaning the prescience (or DA) + lord combo could be even better.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

StrayIight wrote:
I feel like the idea of a Havok Squad being given Chainguns starts to look better alongside the 'Punishing Volley' strat:

'Punishing Volley (1 CP): Use at the end of your opponents first movement phase if you did not go first. Pick a DEVASTATION BATTERY unit from your army. That unit may shoot as if it were the shooting phase.'

I don't know that it's worth planning around, but there's a certain appeal to the psychological effect on an opponent that knows this may be coming - they'd have to make very different decisions in their movement phase potentially.
You aren't having to feel the unit was a complete waste if it get's shot to pieces in the first turn (and it may not, if everything has moved to hide from it to avoid the strat), because it still got to get that first volley out.

Food for thought.

Especially with forward operatives. Move these fellas 9" toward center board and wait for them to make a mistake and move something within range.

I honestly think I'm going to give triple havocs a serious go. 2x chainguns, 1x lascannon. I really like the lascannon with punishing volley.

...And blasphemous as it is to dare say, I think I actually like a rhino for the two chaingun squads. If I lose first turn, the opponent has to carve open my rhino to get at the havocs. Given that the army is now going to be nearly all 3+ (or 2+) and we'll have CP, embanked positions looks very appealing; that will be a lot of 2+ armor saves they'll have to get through to touch them. If I get first turn, means I get to pop them up an extra 3 inches, then move, so 33" threat range. I'll then probably stick two of my CSM squads into the rhino and go drive over to an objective. Rhino gets good mileage out of bolter discipline to boot with it's two combis. This means my VotLW and EC can be focused on anti-vehicle or anti-infantry as needed.

With the DA taking such an extreme swerve to footslogger synergy and effectively taking up three spaces if he does embark, are paired Berzerkers vans now going to slum it with a CL & EC?

...I did ruminate on a way to deliver Berzerkers on T1 that can also enable the DA to ride with them. Pop the prayer at the start of the round, jump in a Rhino, drive up to the enemy, use both barrels of a combi-Plasma and aim to roll low. If you Warptime, this can have you charging from within the enemy DZ on the first turn. Aaaand we did just gain a means to clear screens...

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, Alpha legion trait works only over 12 inches. But with your terminators, if you are using plasma, you kind of want to get within 12 inches, and then the Alpha legion trait doesn't work. :( But yup, deploying a unit of terminators doesn't sound half bad now, with their drop in points. And if you go cheap for the Abalative wounds on your first or second terminator, its just 29 points. Then you won't feel so bad about them dying until maybe the third or fourth terminator. Actually, even combi bolter chain axe terminators aren't really bad. still str 5 -1AP in melee and shoots out 4 shots per turn per model. This is even while moving because of the new bolter discipline.

Alpha legion terminators would work well if you are marching them up the board.

I'm not too worried about the 12" on the trait. They can be 12" from the front line, and still protected from the big guns and knights that are further back. And of course if they move within 12", they're gonna wreck whatever is near them. If the opponent moves within 12" to double tap with their own plasma it'll hurt, but they'll need a LOT of plasma to wipe you. And next turn you'll shoot back and then charge them.

There are very few things that want to be within 12" of combi-plas terminators.

What are people's thoughts on a unit of 5 Chaos Marines with 1 Plasma Gun/ Champion Combi-Plasma with Chain Axe and a unit of 5 Havocs with 4 Chaincannons and a champion with a plasma gun packed into a rhino.

There would be 2 of these in a fast assault based army with Maulerfiends, Lord Discordant, Daemon Prince and 2 Decimators.

Black Legion, for the record.

Should I just skip basic Marines all together and just use 3 units of Cultists and try to pick up 5 Chosen with 5 Plasma Guns?

I'm really looking for the best way to run basic Marines here. I know they aren't the greatest, but I would like them to be able to put some work in.

Or embark a berzerker squad instead. The havocs get out and move off, the berzerkers get on. They can hide out of line of sight behind the Rhino 1st turn as well. Berzerkers love Rhinos, and they are absolutely scary in close combat.

BTW, the venoncrawler is growing on me. It is only 130 points. It can pair up with the Lord of Discordant to move advance up the field while firing its guns (2d3 str 8 shots) being affected. The LOD can give it +2 movement so that its movement 12. And yeah, if you charge it into combat with the advance and charge strategem, and it subsequently blows up, it blows up on a 5+ and causes d3 mortal wounds to everyone within 6 inches.lol

You know what's the challenge so far? Making Abaddon work. Because he is relatively slow (foot slogger). He is either in a long ranged super shooty list or maybe if you deep strike him in together with a bunch of shooty stuff (oblits and terminators). The deep strike thing is ok, except it probably takes up half your army in points, and then you end up facing the opponent with only half your army until Abby and friends show up. And there is also the issue that maybe the opponent can screen you out so that you have no very good places to deep strike into.

I do like Berzerkers, but I'm trying to keep my Black Legion army completely undivided.

Also, I'm trying to make my troop choices work for me. Berzerkers are still Elites are they not?

The Venomcrawler looks ok, but I painted up 2 maulerfiends and 2 Helldrakes back in 6th edition and almost pulled my hair out painting that much gold trim. I'd like to get some use out of them again.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I do like Berzerkers, but I'm trying to keep my Black Legion army completely undivided.

Also, I'm trying to make my troop choices work for me. Berzerkers are still Elites are they not?

The Venomcrawler looks ok, but I painted up 2 maulerfiends and 2 Helldrakes back in 6th edition and almost pulled my hair out painting that much gold trim. I'd like to get some use out of them again.

It looks fine. as long as your chain cannon squad can obliterate the chaff, your daemon engines should be able to go in and wreck face. They will have too much to worry about to target your troops. I mean, when you have chain cannon squads, decimaters, helldrakes, maulerfiends, on the field, somehow, I think a basic squad would be a very low priority. lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am starting to think that the most competitive build will have Alpha legion somehow. CSM now seems to work best at mid range. Alpha legion gives our infantry protection in the -1 to hit. And we can forward operatives literally our whole army up if we are willing to blow enough command points.

One unit of reaper chain cannon squad is scary enough as it is. But imagine if you scout move up 3 squads of 20 berzerkers, and two squads of chain cannons, and 1 DA for 6 CP in forward operatives. Your DA uses the prayer to give a chain cannon squad -1 to hit so its -2 to hit. Follow up with a flying Daemon prince or two for warptime and prescience and to give reroll 1 to your chain reaper squads.

First turn your chain cannons obliterate all the chaff, and one 20 man zerker squad gets warptimed into whatever is left. He is now facing 60 berserkers and he has no fodder left... lol And if he placed his heavies further back, then they might be over 12 inches of the berserkers and and then -1 to hit. They can move closer of course, but do you really want to move closer to 60 berserkers and a flying DP or two? lol. Second turn, when all 3 squads of your berserkers and the flying DP is in combat, you use your DA's zealot aura to give all units within 6 inches reroll to hit in melee...

Its sounds really tasty.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The shooty version.

Scout move up 1 unit of 30 cultist fodder, 2 chain cannon squads and 2 Obliterator squads, and 2 DA for 7 CP. The whole shebag moves and then empties all their guns. The DA gave two obliterator squad -1, so both are -2 to hit. (I don;t think prayers are limited to one type of prayer per round, we shall see). You can have two flying daemon princes, one to cast prescience and another to cast miasma of pestilence to make a -2 to hit now a -3! to hit. Everything within 37 to 39 inches of your deployment zone may potentially be wiped out or decimated. His turn, you have your cultists just in front of your shooty units. So unless he can shoot your 2 squads of reaper cannons and 2 squads of oblits off the table. You will get to shoot back yet again.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I do like Berzerkers, but I'm trying to keep my Black Legion army completely undivided.

Also, I'm trying to make my troop choices work for me. Berzerkers are still Elites are they not?

The Venomcrawler looks ok, but I painted up 2 maulerfiends and 2 Helldrakes back in 6th edition and almost pulled my hair out painting that much gold trim. I'd like to get some use out of them again.

It looks fine. as long as your chain cannon squad can obliterate the chaff, your daemon engines should be able to go in and wreck face. They will have too much to worry about to target your troops. I mean, when you have chain cannon squads, decimaters, helldrakes, maulerfiends, on the field, somehow, I think a basic squad would be a very low priority. lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am starting to think that the most competitive build will have Alpha legion somehow. CSM now seems to work best at mid range. Alpha legion gives our infantry protection in the -1 to hit. And we can forward operatives literally our whole army up if we are willing to blow enough command points.

One unit of reaper chain cannon squad is scary enough as it is. But imagine if you scout move up 3 squads of 20 berzerkers, and two squads of chain cannons, and 1 DA for 6 CP in forward operatives. Your DA uses the prayer to give a chain cannon squad -1 to hit so its -2 to hit. Follow up with a flying Daemon prince or two for warptime and prescience and to give reroll 1 to your chain reaper squads.

First turn your chain cannons obliterate all the chaff, and one 20 man zerker squad gets warptimed into whatever is left. He is now facing 60 berserkers and he has no fodder left... lol And if he placed his heavies further back, then they might be over 12 inches of the berserkers and and then -1 to hit. They can move closer of course, but do you really want to move closer to 60 berserkers and a flying DP or two? lol. Second turn, when all 3 squads of your berserkers and the flying DP is in combat, you use your DA's zealot aura to give all units within 6 inches reroll to hit in melee...

Its sounds really tasty.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The shooty version.

Scout move up 1 unit of 30 cultist fodder, 2 chain cannon squads and 2 Obliterator squads, and 2 DA for 7 CP. The whole shebag moves and then empties all their guns. The DA gave two obliterator squad -1, so both are -2 to hit. (I don;t think prayers are limited to one type of prayer per round, we shall see). You can have two flying daemon princes, one to cast prescience and another to cast miasma of pestilence to make a -2 to hit now a -3! to hit. Everything within 37 to 39 inches of your deployment zone may potentially be wiped out or decimated. His turn, you have your cultists just in front of your shooty units. So unless he can shoot your 2 squads of reaper cannons and 2 squads of oblits off the table. You will get to shoot back yet again.

Those 60 berzerkers are gonna need something to deal with morale problems. And that something is Abaddon.

Hmmm, maybe we have finally found a use for our dear warmaster.... lol He will need to catch up though. He is not alpha legion, so he cannot be forward operatived. At least his morale immunity aura is 12 inches, so that's quite large.

You know, maybe its possible to combine the two forward operative lists. Just spend even more CP. forward operative everything forward. Oblits, havocs, berserkers, DA. Then shoot AND warptime one squad into combat. He has to decide if he shoots the Oblits, the zerkers, or the chain cannon squad. Turn two, shoot again and charge the zerkers and the DP in. Maybe you can even warp time Abaddon into charge range on turn two .... lol\

You will need alot of CP though. So, good thing we have our spiky 17... lol

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hmmm, maybe we have finally found a use for our dear warmaster.... lol He will need to catch up though. He is not alpha legion, so he cannot be forward operatived. At least his morale immunity aura is 12 inches, so that's quite large.

You know, maybe its possible to combine the two forward operative lists. Just spend even more CP. forward operative everything forward. Oblits, havocs, berserkers, DA. Then shoot AND warptime one squad into combat. He has to decide if he shoots the Oblits, the zerkers, or the chain cannon squad. Turn two, shoot again and charge the zerkers and the DP in. Maybe you can even warp time Abaddon into charge range on turn two .... lol\

You will need alot of CP though. So, good thing we have our spiky 17... lol

Yeah there's not really any good option to give forward deployed units fearless on turn 1 if you don't go first. You're relying on the stratagem to hold it together, and relying on them only being able to do catastrophic damage to 1 squad. If you go first, you can warptime Abaddon up to cover them with his aura. He's worth getting in there on his own offensive merits too.

I do like the idea of just forward deploying a huge amount of the list. Probably will need a red corsair battalion to afford it though!

So...let's see
Brazen Beasts with Warp Talons in a Raptorial Host. You're more likely to make the charge, and it'd be easier to get off the AP-4 on the charge thing.

Didn't really see that discussed but I think it does have a small amount of merit. Not sure if it's worth it though.