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Eldenfirefly wrote:


No 2: Obliterators. They will be FAQed to cost 115 per model. But while they are 65 points, they are ridiculous. Of course, I would say that even at 115 points, they are worth it. They are an all purpose unit that can hold their own in melee now. And even at 115 points per model, the key thing is that you can stack buffs on them to make them absolutely disgusting. 3 Oblits shoot out 18 heavy shot, and you can cacophony that into 36 shots. Stack on stuff like VOTLW, etc etc, and you have a unit that can delete almost anything you point it at. And it is not easy to kill. Its a very tough unit that can hold its own against shooting and melee alike.

11. Even our terminators got better. because we can now take chainaxe and combi bolter terminators at just 29 points per model. 10 terminators marching up the board are shooting out 40 shots each turn and cost only 290 points.

Personally, I wouldn't let anyone take the new Oblits at 65pts/model. I'm certainly not going to field them at 65pts/model, and CSM is the only army I play. Their new points cost is listed quite correctly in the Shadowspear mini-dex. Anybody trying to sell me the 65-pts cost is bending the rules beyond good sportsmanship and, though I wouldn't be able to prove it, I'd assume they were lying if they said they didn't know.

And with the Termies - have I missed something? How are they only 29 points? Did their base cost go down to 26? I can't read the cost in the leaked images...

Snugiraffe wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:


No 2: Obliterators. They will be FAQed to cost 115 per model. But while they are 65 points, they are ridiculous. Of course, I would say that even at 115 points, they are worth it. They are an all purpose unit that can hold their own in melee now. And even at 115 points per model, the key thing is that you can stack buffs on them to make them absolutely disgusting. 3 Oblits shoot out 18 heavy shot, and you can cacophony that into 36 shots. Stack on stuff like VOTLW, etc etc, and you have a unit that can delete almost anything you point it at. And it is not easy to kill. Its a very tough unit that can hold its own against shooting and melee alike.

11. Even our terminators got better. because we can now take chainaxe and combi bolter terminators at just 29 points per model. 10 terminators marching up the board are shooting out 40 shots each turn and cost only 290 points.

Personally, I wouldn't let anyone take the new Oblits at 65pts/model. I'm certainly not going to field them at 65pts/model, and CSM is the only army I play. Their new points cost is listed quite correctly in the Shadowspear mini-dex. Anybody trying to sell me the 65-pts cost is bending the rules beyond good sportsmanship and, though I wouldn't be able to prove it, I'd assume they were lying if they said they didn't know.

And with the Termies - have I missed something? How are they only 29 points? Did their base cost go down to 26? I can't read the cost in the leaked images...

Didn't it allready get verfied that this is a typo?

well, we will know for sure when its out. But I thought some of the drop in points was because they can take chain axes rather than power axes or power swords stock.

every day that passes I am more convinced that chaincannons are meant to go to 5-man CSM squads rather than havoks.

5 CSM with a chaincannon and a combi bolter on the champ parks in a midfield objective and has 10 str 4 shots and 8 str 5 shots for 87 pts. It's also a troop and can get you 8CP with the obvious red corsair trait. I can get upt to 4 losses in that squad before I lose my chaincannon and the range of the cannon matches the bolter range nicely.

On the other hand, a havoc chainreaper unit is 150ish points. It does have much bigger damage output and slightly longer range, but it costs a heavy slot, double the price and you start losing efficiency from the second wound.

I will be keeping my autohavoks, which now for 5 more points per unit get +1 toughness and are able to hide out of LoS on turn 1 and still shoot later, I will call this a win and I will be putting the chaincannons on the CSM squads.

Having reaper chain cannons on basic CSM works perfectly fine too. Nothing wrong with that. Its just that 4 on a havoc squad allows for stacking of buffs to make it really efficient. I doubt if you want to use cacophony on a 5 man CSM squad. Anyway, its a tradeoff of durability vs concentration of firepower. Either way is fine really. I can see the merits of spreading out your chain reaper cannons across your CSM squads too.

Something to chew on; I did some rough maths for Abaddon and worked out that if he's the Warlord (for the 5+ Death to the False Emperor) plus you pop Veterans of the Long War and the Khorne fight twice stratagem, he should destroy a Knight Castellan in one round of combat on average rolls. Of course, getting him there, spending lots of Command Points and all that...but how freaking cool is it that the Warmaster can tear a Knight Dominus to shreds in one round? That's just with the Talon too!

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but did Havocs get a price increase to go with their T5 and ignore movement penalty for heavy weapons? Also, are Autocannons still a decent choice for them, or is it going to be Chaincannons or nothing? I ask because I have a bunch of Autocannon Havocs sitting around and I'd love an excuse to get them out and play them.

Havocs are going up from 13 to 14 so now they're in line with Chosen. I'd say Autocannons are still a solid choice at 10 points a pop - S7 is still important for wounding light armour, D2 is nice for popping 2W models, and 48 inch range lets you stay at a comfortable distance while now being able to re-position without penalty if something escapes your line of sight. With the new detachment & associated stratagem (which allows you to shoot with a <Detachment> unit at the end of your opponent's first movement phase if you didn't go first) the range is even nicer than before, giving Auto-Havocs or Las-Havocs (depending on which you're running and what targets are available) a chance to pop an enemy unit before they get a chance to fire. The new Chaincannons are obviously good, but at 20 points a gun with 24 inch range I'd rather have them pop up in a Termite Assault Drill to ruin someone's day than start them vulnerable on the board.

It is cool! But like you said, getting him there is the problem. lol

For all who love Daemon Engines. If my math is somehow correct and no bigger changes in points in the new codex. For 800p give and take 20p you can get.

LoS with the cheaper canon
MoP to buff invul and sacrifice for repair
Warpsmith for more repairs and taking wounds for sacrifice.
Dark apostle for -1hit prey.

Now you have a castle moving up for 2 turns healing so the rest 1200p can do their stuff. A LoS can’t really be ignored but if you take other big or threatening stuff you give your opponent a hard choice.

On another note.
Lord of discordant and the thing he rides. Anyone think they will release only the Daemon Engine as a new unit?

So i'm trying to play catch-up and can't figure out why suddenly people are high on Kytan? What has changed with these new releases that makes him so much better? Won't he just be deleted by a Castellan like all our Renegade Knights?

Havocs’ talons should have also gained the old Wobbly Model Syndrome rule. Blu-Tac them to the side of a building and let rip

Hey guys,

Is there an "Heretical 17" CP farm that is already agreed upon as the cheapest/most efficient?

It obviously goes along the lines of :
Red Corsairs batallion 8CP
3x5 Naked CSM

But then I'm not sure which 2 HQ to take.
I would like them to be all Khorne Marked for fluff reason, so no sorcerer..
Are 2 Dark Apostle the way to go?

Klone12 wrote:
Hey guys,

Is there an "Heretical 17" CP farm that is already agreed upon as the cheapest/most efficient?

It obviously goes along the lines of :
Red Corsairs batallion 8CP
3x5 Naked CSM

But then I'm not sure which 2 HQ to take.
I would like them to be all Khorne Marked for fluff reason, so no sorcerer..
Are 2 Dark Apostle the way to go?

2 Apostles cost 10 missile launchers.

Take a look at the warpsmith instead.

The Kytan, after its 100pt drop, became viable right there. But with the new stuff it has gained an awful lot imo. Here's the key buffs:

Dank Apostle can give it -1 to hit, and it triggers at the start of the movement phase, so the buff is live before your opponent can shoot at it. Great stuff.

Master of Possession can give it 4++ too. these two combined are right up there with 3++, and you've spent 0cps.

It still has daefmonforge Strat, which was alway what made it amazing in CC, and surprisingly dangerous with its gun. Now, a Lord Discordant alongside it will make it hit on a 2+.

Finally, the specialist detachment: Soulforged Pack. This unlock two great Strats for it. First, 1cp means your number of wounds remaining are doubled for the purposes of damage table. Nice. But much more importantly, Infernal Engines lets it charge after advancing. The Kytan has a 2d6 advance range, meaning your warptime cast can go on something else, and now you have two horrible CC threats to ram down your opponent's throat turn 1. Finally, the detachment's warlord gives +2 to its movement. He's fast as hell, hard to hit, and rivals the gallant for CC potency, but has a big gun strapped to him and regens.

If I can spring for it, I'm seriously considering running 3 lord discordants and a Kytan in a supreme Soulforged detachment.

 grouchoben wrote:
The Kytan, after its 100pt drop, became viable right there. But with the new stuff it has gained an awful lot imo. Here's the key buffs:

Dank Apostle can give it -1 to hit, and it triggers at the start of the movement phase, so the buff is live before your opponent can shoot at it. Great stuff.

Master of Possession can give it 4++ too. these two combined are right up there with 3++, and you've spent 0cps.

It still has daefmonforge Strat, which was alway what made it amazing in CC, and surprisingly dangerous with its gun. Now, a Lord Discordant alongside it will make it hit on a 2+.

Finally, the specialist detachment: Soulforged Pack. This unlock two great Strats for it. First, 1cp means your number of wounds remaining are doubled for the purposes of damage table. Nice. But much more importantly, Infernal Engines lets it charge after advancing. The Kytan has a 2d6 advance range, meaning your warptime cast can go on something else, and now you have two horrible CC threats to ram down your opponent's throat turn 1. Finally, the detachment's warlord gives +2 to its movement. He's fast as hell, hard to hit, and rivals the gallant for CC potency, but has a big gun strapped to him and regens.

If I can spring for it, I'm seriously considering running 3 lord discordants and a Kytan in a supreme Soulforged detachment.

Now that would be Amusing to see.

I think the ability of Sorcerers to cast useful spells on other Legions, and DPs to give and receive aura buffs to Daemons, and the potential use of the new RC relic & strat, and the firepower of a chaincannon, disrupt the notion of points-efficient CP batteries

Five minimum squads? Do you invest in making each one a mini midfield firebase? Do you make one of them a big, recyclable firemagnet?

Two cheap characters? Do you spend a bit more on them and cast Prescience & (Deity spell) on another detachment’s deathstar? Do you advance & charge an intoxicated DP? Do you drive around firing ten shots? Do you accompany a load of LDs & Defilers and give them rerolls?

I’m looking at my backlog of thirty CSMs I built and then put them at the back of the paint queue, and feel spoiled for choice. Not ideal that they’re Legion-locked, but well played, GW

I am not such a purist I need my CSM to be painted in exactly the right kind of colors. Black legion welcomes all warbands under its banner anyway. So, Mine are all painted black legion, and I go with whatever legion or renegade side I want to try out. I will just say that they just agreed to fight under black legion colors, but their traits and such are pretty much their prior legion or renegade chapter. I am not going to have multiple legions just because I want to try out everything under chaos. lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lindsay40k wrote:
I think the ability of Sorcerers to cast useful spells on other Legions, and DPs to give and receive aura buffs to Daemons, and the potential use of the new RC relic & strat, and the firepower of a chaincannon, disrupt the notion of points-efficient CP batteries

Five minimum squads? Do you invest in making each one a mini midfield firebase? Do you make one of them a big, recyclable firemagnet?

Two cheap characters? Do you spend a bit more on them and cast Prescience & (Deity spell) on another detachment’s deathstar? Do you advance & charge an intoxicated DP? Do you drive around firing ten shots? Do you accompany a load of LDs & Defilers and give them rerolls?

I’m looking at my backlog of thirty CSMs I built and then put them at the back of the paint queue, and feel spoiled for choice. Not ideal that they’re Legion-locked, but well played, GW

Honestly, just one spiky 17, along with two vanguard/outrider/supreme command (which ever your need) is plenty of CP. That's 5+3+3+1+1 = 13. 14 if you take Huron. Honestly, that is a luxury I have never ever had. 14 CP seems like a dream already. And it sounds just about right for whatever you want to do. If you blow 4 to 5 cp per round, thats good for 3 rounds. The battle is usually decided by end of round 3. If I wanted even more, I would go with a red cosair batallion and a normal non-red cosair batallion. (probably black legion) because black legion has a ton of stuff, warlord traits, etc that are pretty thematic and I need the characters to place those warlord traits on. Unless I really just forgo VOTLW and use red corsairs all the way for CP galore.

Even 1 red corsair batallion and 1 legion battalion would give me 5+5+3+3 = 16 CP. that's ridiculous already. With huron, it would be 17. lol.

I mean, you want places to spend those CP on. Black legion lets you spend a CP to give a sorceror or a DA a warlord trait. And then you can make one or two more heroes their specialist detachment warlords for another 1 cp each. And then another 2 CP to make two specialist detachments. That's 5 cp spent before the battle even started. Spend 1 more to get 1 more relic. that's 6. lol So, we can definitely spend lots of CP if we wanted to. Some of those warlord traits are so good, and to be able to have 4 warlords in your army... (Huron, a sorceror or DA, and two more specialist detachment warlords). Its just amazing. I would totally make a backfield sorceror trusted warleader. The first time I roll a 5+ when I spend a strategem it will pay for itself. And if I had 15 or more CP to spend... lol Its definitely a net gain.

And think of the CP spam.

1. To be able to use fury of khorne to have berserkers fight 3 times for a few rounds.
2. To be able to use cacophony for a few rounds.
3. To be able to use VOTLW during shooting AND fighting phases each round.
4. To be able to spam blasphemous machines and daemonforge every round (if you have daemon engines).
5. To be able to spend kill shot and fire frenzy every round (if you have predators and hellbrutes).
6. To be able to spend 2 CP to heal your Abbadon or your nurgle DP, or your nurgle greater possessed every round (because you can!).

Doesn't even count the CP we can want to spend on our special detachment strategems ... who says we can't use up all those CPs. lol I haven't even added in reroll CPs, which we inevitably use as well.

 grouchoben wrote:
The Kytan, after its 100pt drop, became viable right there. But with the new stuff it has gained an awful lot imo. Here's the key buffs:

Dank Apostle can give it -1 to hit, and it triggers at the start of the movement phase, so the buff is live before your opponent can shoot at it. Great stuff.

Master of Possession can give it 4++ too. these two combined are right up there with 3++, and you've spent 0cps.

It still has daefmonforge Strat, which was alway what made it amazing in CC, and surprisingly dangerous with its gun. Now, a Lord Discordant alongside it will make it hit on a 2+.

Finally, the specialist detachment: Soulforged Pack. This unlock two great Strats for it. First, 1cp means your number of wounds remaining are doubled for the purposes of damage table. Nice. But much more importantly, Infernal Engines lets it charge after advancing. The Kytan has a 2d6 advance range, meaning your warptime cast can go on something else, and now you have two horrible CC threats to ram down your opponent's throat turn 1. Finally, the detachment's warlord gives +2 to its movement. He's fast as hell, hard to hit, and rivals the gallant for CC potency, but has a big gun strapped to him and regens.

If I can spring for it, I'm seriously considering running 3 lord discordants and a Kytan in a supreme Soulforged detachment.

To put it into a Soulforged pack you need a detachement with both LOW and HQ choice and those don't exist yet? Aren't LOW in their separate detachement anyway?

Weird question, but is Dark Apostles prayer legion locked? Can Magnus benefit from it?

Klone12 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
The Kytan, after its 100pt drop, became viable right there. But with the new stuff it has gained an awful lot imo. Here's the key buffs:

If I can spring for it, I'm seriously considering running 3 lord discordants and a Kytan in a supreme Soulforged detachment.

To put it into a Soulforged pack you need a detachement with both LOW and HQ choice and those don't exist yet? Aren't LOW in their separate detachement anyway?

You can use supreme command detachment. That detachment requires you to bring at least 3 HQ. But it also allows you to bring a super heavy in it.

Can even fit in one decimator in elites..

 BoomWolf wrote:
My problem with the chaincannons is the sheer costs.

It costs like 2 HBs, and shoots like 2 HBs-but at lower range.

So yea, when you take the body into account, you pump up offensive efficiency by a lot-but also dump your defensive efficiency by quite a lot, and the loss of range doubles down on lost defense as well as the lost reach.


So...are they really THAT good?
Sure, lots of firepower-but low durability per cost.
A chaincannon havoc, compared to a HB havoc has x2 the firepower at x1.42 times the cost. that's about 40% increase in relative offensive ability.
But than again, its about a 30% loss of relative durability toa HB dude.
And HB are generally received as bad.
Is a 40% increase in firepower but a loss of 30% endurace plus the loss of most range really turn a bad gun to a great one?

I fear the chaincannon might be a bit overrated.

They will absolutely require a form of transportation to not die T1. Durability per points, the Rhino isn't bad but simply doesn't contribute much to the battle overall. Termites are at a much higher cost (points and money), but they would offer damage and the ability to deliver the goods anywhere. Claws would carry ×3 squads + any characters, but then you got all your eggs in one basket.

It's really a tough call.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Total wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but did Havocs get a price increase to go with their T5 and ignore movement penalty for heavy weapons? Also, are Autocannons still a decent choice for them, or is it going to be Chaincannons or nothing? I ask because I have a bunch of Autocannon Havocs sitting around and I'd love an excuse to get them out and play them.

Havocs are going up from 13 to 14 so now they're in line with Chosen. I'd say Autocannons are still a solid choice at 10 points a pop - S7 is still important for wounding light armour, D2 is nice for popping 2W models, and 48 inch range lets you stay at a comfortable distance while now being able to re-position without penalty if something escapes your line of sight. With the new detachment & associated stratagem (which allows you to shoot with a <Detachment> unit at the end of your opponent's first movement phase if you didn't go first) the range is even nicer than before, giving Auto-Havocs or Las-Havocs (depending on which you're running and what targets are available) a chance to pop an enemy unit before they get a chance to fire. The new Chaincannons are obviously good, but at 20 points a gun with 24 inch range I'd rather have them pop up in a Termite Assault Drill to ruin someone's day than start them vulnerable on the board.

I think for "cheap" Havoks like we were usually doing this is the way to go. 24 points isn't a terrible deal.

One squad of a suicide Rotors will be almost mandatory though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
My problem with the chaincannons is the sheer costs.

It costs like 2 HBs, and shoots like 2 HBs-but at lower range.

So yea, when you take the body into account, you pump up offensive efficiency by a lot-but also dump your defensive efficiency by quite a lot, and the loss of range doubles down on lost defense as well as the lost reach.


So...are they really THAT good?
Sure, lots of firepower-but low durability per cost.
A chaincannon havoc, compared to a HB havoc has x2 the firepower at x1.42 times the cost. that's about 40% increase in relative offensive ability.
But than again, its about a 30% loss of relative durability toa HB dude.
And HB are generally received as bad.
Is a 40% increase in firepower but a loss of 30% endurace plus the loss of most range really turn a bad gun to a great one?

I fear the chaincannon might be a bit overrated.

They will absolutely require a form of transportation to not die T1. Durability per points, the Rhino isn't bad but simply doesn't contribute much to the battle overall. Termites are at a much higher cost (points and money), but they would offer damage and the ability to deliver the goods anywhere. Claws would carry ×3 squads + any characters, but then you got all your eggs in one basket.

It's really a tough call.

Khahbriss maybee? Or one of the flyers made out of bananaresin?

DS'ing your havocs' transports makes them a bit pointless - they're for clearing chaff, and T2 is getting late for that, with the tools chaos has now to make T1 charges. Rhino is smallest and cheapest, I think it wins unfortunately. But if your opponent can afford to shoot your rhino, you didn't being enough horrifying prospects imo.

Well, if that's really a very important issue. Can also consider taking Alpha legion and use forward operatives? 9 inch scout forward, plus 6 inch move + 24 inch range. There should be lots of fodder and chaff within 39 inches from your deployment zone...

 grouchoben wrote:
DS'ing your havocs' transports makes them a bit pointless - they're for clearing chaff, and T2 is getting late for that, with the tools chaos has now to make T1 charges. Rhino is smallest and cheapest, I think it wins unfortunately. But if your opponent can afford to shoot your rhino, you didn't being enough horrifying prospects imo.

Point in case, then again if a gunline knows your havocs are in there, it will not live simply for annoying you.

Oh, hey, Abaddon has the CHAOS LORD keyword, if that doesn’t change then he should be able to be Warlord and enable the extra Warlords strat?

 lindsay40k wrote:
Oh, hey, Abaddon has the CHAOS LORD keyword, if that doesn’t change then he should be able to be Warlord and enable the extra Warlords strat?

You mean council of traitors? Yes, any black legion chaos lord as a warlord can enable that strategem to be used. You can then give a warlord trait to a sorceror or a DA.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Weird question, but is Dark Apostles prayer legion locked? Can Magnus benefit from it?

As far as I can tell, every Prayer’s effect specifies LEGION, so no ultra kaiju primarch shenanigans. Well, unless we get someone else.

I like Kytans better than LoS because of the speed, improved melee profile and reduced cost. I don't find LoS's guns to be particularly impressive; I do find them to be hideously expensive. That move from 5-4 attacks is actually pretty big to me and the points raise is nothing to sneeze at; if you're putting a LoW in, you're already devoting a lot. The cheaper they can be the better. The biggest thing I like more about the LoS is the superior wounds, but I don't think that trade is worth it.

I think the Black Legion Lord Discord (1/2 damage and probably elixir), DA and then either a second lord d (+2 move), or a sorc + a kytan is going to be a pretty legit thing. The Kytan gets a warptime, lord D gets advance and charge (or vice versa) and you've got two highly murdery entities up in the enemy front. I'd probably want to pair it with an ahirman/2xDP supreme command and then a CP battery Red Corsairs.