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 Rydria wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
How do noise marine (troops) compare to the new buffed chaos space marines ?

What the heck do you mean buffed? Nothing buffed space marines. They just got adjacent buffs that every other unit in the codex can basically take, aside from a couple Red Corsairs things.

Noise Marines are fantastic, however I think they contend too much with Combi-Bolter chosen at this point. But they still pack a punch, and are a great Endless Cacophony target if you take a squad of 10 or more.

I was under the impression that the beta bolter rule became official (though noise marines can benefit from this also) and the chaincannon now exists.

Did I say it's the best unit in the book? No. I said it's a good pick. Don't be one of those guys who assumes the 99% is terrible.

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
How do noise marine (troops) compare to the new buffed chaos space marines ?

What the heck do you mean buffed? Nothing buffed space marines. They just got adjacent buffs that every other unit in the codex can basically take, aside from a couple Red Corsairs things.

Noise Marines are fantastic, however I think they contend too much with Combi-Bolter chosen at this point. But they still pack a punch, and are a great Endless Cacophony target if you take a squad of 10 or more.

I was under the impression that the beta bolter rule became official (though noise marines can benefit from this also) and the chaincannon now exists.

Did I say it's the best unit in the book? No. I said it's a good pick. Don't be one of those guys who assumes the 99% is terrible.

I think he was responding to your initial question about what buffed marines. In other words he was doing the opposite of assuming they were terrible.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
How do noise marine (troops) compare to the new buffed chaos space marines ?

What the heck do you mean buffed? Nothing buffed space marines. They just got adjacent buffs that every other unit in the codex can basically take, aside from a couple Red Corsairs things.

Noise Marines are fantastic, however I think they contend too much with Combi-Bolter chosen at this point. But they still pack a punch, and are a great Endless Cacophony target if you take a squad of 10 or more.

I was under the impression that the beta bolter rule became official (though noise marines can benefit from this also) and the chaincannon now exists.

Did I say it's the best unit in the book? No. I said it's a good pick. Don't be one of those guys who assumes the 99% is terrible.

I think he was responding to your initial question about what buffed marines. In other words he was doing the opposite of assuming they were terrible.

Aaah, yeah sorry, I didn't even think of that top part. But even with bolter rules, it doesn't stop CSM from being sub par. It's still better at this point IMO to bring 10 man cultist squads for your CP, and just bring Chosen and Havocs for anything you want your CSM to do.

So i am currently running a deamon engine list in a local 2k tournament, played 2 games already. My list is pretty silly, i took a stupid list idea to a competitive tournament but have gone 1 and 1 so eh?

Anyways basic list idea is

Abaddon
Sorc in term armor, mos
Master of pos, mos
Warpsmith

3x 5 man csm

2 defilers w/ scourges and reaper auto cannons, mok
3 man oblit squad w/ mos

Lord of skulls

Blood throne w/ crimson crown



First game vs wolf player with 2 of the flying fun busses and a 10 man hellblaster squad plus other stuff he target the lord of skulls hard. Fired all his anti tank (and even large amounts of small arms fire) at it. It barely survived with 4 wounds. Then my mop did his thing, the warpsmith did his thing, and it healed itself a bit to bring it to 9 wounds.

However i started the 3 oblits on the board since my opponent had a large area of denial with all those omni scramblers from thr new set out and about. He was so focused on killing the los my oblits walked up 4", stood near abby, and rolled +3 str, -3ap, and 3 dmg flat. They then killed 1 of the repulsers (did 33 wounds to it total) and used endless canophy to fire again and blew the hellblasters off the table. That took the wind out of his sails, realizing his mistake he tried to kill the oblits but t5, 4w, 2+/4++/5+++ (mop got his aura off and sorc put delightful agonies on them) with what he had left in range (the other repulser) did not work, he only managed to get 3 wounds through on one. Lord of skulls healed another 6 wounds then ran out and preceded to kill everything it came near. Oblits finished the other repulser.

What i learned was what others have also said on here, trying to run a deamon force where these big things run around and get all these buffs isnt going to happen. By t3 nothing was in range of the master of possessions 6" bubble, or the warpsmiths repair range, and the defilers got the most out of the blood throne's crown trick (6's to wound are additional attacks with same weapon) and abby, but even then they just didnt kill that much. They were more of an annoyance to my opponent, nothing like the oblits or lord of skulls.


2nd game went much like the 1st, except my opponent (genestealer cults) focused on a defiler t1 and used 9 biovores to make my life miserable. Also i lost so yeah lol. To be honest i knew i was in trouble that game, I didn't have nearly enough swarm control to make it work lol. That and mind control is a dick move, such a pain to deal with.

Titanicus wrote:
Another question for you folks could a brass scorpion work with a lord of discordant? Is the new red corsair csm detachment actually worth running for the cp poinrs in such a list?

I don’t see why not, especially if a Legion trait’s giving the LD some staying power. Shame it can’t be Warptimed, though - LoS is more tempting to me for that reason

I think initial conversation on RC minimum Battalion reached a broad consensus that it approaches IG efficiency, and with them being able to double tap at 24” and take an eight shot heavy weapon the Heretacs are moderately useful

With Cultists taking a further kick in the gribblies, it certainly looks like a viable CP battery

Another combo I am really thinking about trying. Start a 5 or 10 man terminator squad on the board. (keep them cheap, chain axe and combi bolters). Make them bringers of despair. March them up the board alongside your 20 man corsar CSM. They will be firing 4 shots per terminator every turn. Plus, they can help kick the ass of any hard hitting unit that wants to threaten your red corsairs CSM unit. The CSM unit is the bubble wrap, but it will have guns too. Then if it gets whittled down and needs to take a morale test. Your terminator unit can use the new bringers of despair strategem which autopass morale for a unit within 18 inches of it. And then after you autopass morale, you spend 3cp to bring back the CSM unit to full strength in your opponent's backfield. lol

And well, 20 CSM and 10 terminators are pretty good for contesting mid board control. Have a question about specialist detachments though. Can they be taken across the whole army? Or are they limited to a specific detachment. Because if I have a superheavy daemon engine (like Brass scorpian or LOS), and I want to bring the soulforged detachment. Do I have to nominate it twice if I have daemon engines in my spearhead detachment AND my super heavy detachment?

The same question would apply if say I have jump pack chaos lords in two detachments. If I make all jump pack dudes raptorial host, does this only apply to one detachment?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lindsay40k wrote:

Titanicus wrote:
Another question for you folks could a brass scorpion work with a lord of discordant? Is the new red corsair csm detachment actually worth running for the cp poinrs in such a list?

I don’t see why not, especially if a Legion trait’s giving the LD some staying power. Shame it can’t be Warptimed, though - LoS is more tempting to me for that reason

I think initial conversation on RC minimum Battalion reached a broad consensus that it approaches IG efficiency, and with them being able to double tap at 24” and take an eight shot heavy weapon the Heretacs are moderately useful

With Cultists taking a further kick in the gribblies, it certainly looks like a viable CP battery

CSM has a lot less reason to run cultists now. Cultists are now max 30 man. It is far easier to gun down 30 cultists than it is to gun down 20 CSM and I can do the new tide of traitors on my 20 CSM squad as well. I suppose if I am going to use them as cheap bubble wrap then cultists still have a place.

Just as bad as before on CSM is not accurate. A 5 man squad can get a 20 point upgrade that over doubles their firepower. 20 man CSM squads can now tide of traitors. Red corsair ones can now gen 75% more CP than cultist counterparts.

No one is saying they are suddenly amazing or that you want them to be your main punch, but they are now decent instead of hot garbage.

You know, its actually even possible to run a fluffy list of 30 bikes now. Chaos warlord on a bike can take that new veteran raider warlord trait. All black legion units within 6 inches can fall back and declare a charge. bikes have a huge foot print. Its quite easy to fall back bikes to within 6 inches of your warlord and then charge again. Bikes are quite cheap now...

In fact, it doesn't even have to be your primary warlord. You can use council of traitors and give a sorceror a wwarlord trait. So, you can give your sorceror on a bike that warlord trait veteran raider. And a sorceror on bike is pretty good too.

You'll likely never fall back though, it'll be the opponent doing it.

For the same reason, White Scars sounds incredibly useful but is bad.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'll likely never fall back though, it'll be the opponent doing it.

For the same reason, White Scars sounds incredibly useful but is bad.

If they fall back, I get to shoot them and then charge them anyway. Either way they are in a bad spot lol.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'll likely never fall back though, it'll be the opponent doing it.

For the same reason, White Scars sounds incredibly useful but is bad.

If they fall back, I get to shoot them and then charge them anyway. Either way they are in a bad spot lol.

But if you fall back you'll only charge. Chances are that, between the two rounds of combat and your previous shooting phase, the need to fall back and charge won't happen so often it's worth using a Warlord Trait on.

See my post above. You don't need to waste a warlord on it. For 1 CP, you can make a sorceror a secondary warlord. Make a bike sorceror your secondary warlord. It is not just bikes, its ALL black legion units. All of your infantry, berserkers, your fly key word jump pack units can all fall back to within 6 inches of that secondary sorceror bike lord and then charge again.

Not to mention you can make a sorceror on a bike pretty fighty (just give him a nice melee relic). Your sorceror lord himself can also fall back 14 inches, and then charge something again. Consider that one minute you are in combat in the midfield, so you can't be targeted and then you fall back (forward) 14 inches, and then charge. Next minute you could be in his back field already. And think about how this might combo with a raptorial host you have waiting to come in on turn 2. After you get charges off on your raptorial host, they can fall back to within 6 inches of your sorceror bike lord and then charge again! lol

And your raptorial host warlord can also be a secondary warlord (use field commander strategem). And he gives all raptorial units within 6 inches +2 inch on the charge. Those 2 secondary warlords together are going to combo so well...

Raptors who can shoot plasma shots, charge +2 inches with reroll to charge (icon of wrath), then fall back and shoot, then charge again at +2 charge with rerolls, are suddenly a very interesting unit now. And I just remember the tip of the spear strategem. If you are running this, it would make sense to have at least one big unit of 10 bikes (with possibly 3 plasma guns in it). First turn, rock up the board and unload all the combi bolters and plasma guns while using tip of the spear. And if you equip your raptorial host jump pack lord with the Angelsbane relic. Now he will be rocking a relic that gives him rapid fire 2, S5, AP-2, 2 damage per shot, which becomes 3 damage against imperium, and he combos with the Sorceror lord, so he ALWAYS gets to fall back, shoot that relic, and then charge into combat again... lol.

And nope, you do NOT need to waste a warlord on either one of them. hehe. In fact, your sorceror bike lord does not even need to be in the same detachment as your raptorial host detachment. He can be in a separate detachment.

I wouldn't even bother using a CP to get it.

Its 1 CP, it sounds absolutely fun !!! And it makes raptorial host sound sooo tasty!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW, I think bike chaos lords and sorceror lords are going to become meta for CSM. A bike lord is T5. and is bike, not infantry. This makes a huge difference when being targeted by a Vindicare assassin.

What are the top 5 units in this codex? (Please include the weapon choice and stratagems that make it good) Also are there any honorable mentions?

 CKO wrote:
What are the top 5 units in this codex? Also are there any honorable mentions?

Nope, the good thing is that with combos, strategems and traits, all units become viable and thematic now. Its all in how your combo them.

But game changing standout would be the new reaper chain cannon. which can be taken on CSM squads, chosen, and havocs. Its 8 shots, str 5 and AP -1. Its a game changer for CSM. Suddenly we have something which can clear away chaff. Once we have that, every other archtype and theme becomes possible (melee, daemon engine, deep strike, big heroes, you name it).

6 Chosen with 5 Combi-Bolters and a Rotor are gonna be a nice focus in my lists from here on out.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 CKO wrote:
What are the top 5 units in this codex? Also are there any honorable mentions?

Nope, the good thing is that with combos, strategems and traits, all units become viable and thematic now. Its all in how your combo them.

But game changing standout would be the new reaper chain cannon. which can be taken on CSM squads, chosen, and havocs. Its 8 shots, str 5 and AP -1. Its a game changer for CSM. Suddenly we have something which can clear away chaff. Once we have that, every other archtype and theme becomes possible (melee, daemon engine, deep strike, big heroes, you name it).

Thanks for the quick response, I agree but you can still rank units in your opinion? Like what is the best unit, 2nd best 3rd best and so forth, and explain why they are the best choices.

This is just my personal rank here.

No 1. Havos with that new reaper chain cannon. Because Havocs can now move and shoot heavy weapons with no penalty. Suddenly, those reaper chain cannons have an effective range of 30 inches. A havoc squad with 4 chain cannons shoot out 32 shots of str 5, and if you cacophony it, its 64 shots. The only other chaff clearing unit I can think of that comes close, is a 20 man noise marine squad with sonic blastors (cacophony it for 120 shots). But the noise marine squad costs 400 points, while the havoc squad costs 145 points... you just can't beat that kind of efficiency.

No 2: Obliterators. They will be FAQed to cost 115 per model. But while they are 65 points, they are ridiculous. Of course, I would say that even at 115 points, they are worth it. They are an all purpose unit that can hold their own in melee now. And even at 115 points per model, the key thing is that you can stack buffs on them to make them absolutely disgusting. 3 Oblits shoot out 18 heavy shot, and you can cacophony that into 36 shots. Stack on stuff like VOTLW, etc etc, and you have a unit that can delete almost anything you point it at. And it is not easy to kill. Its a very tough unit that can hold its own against shooting and melee alike.

3. Lord of Discordant. You probably need to build a theme around it to get best benefit out of it. But even if you don't, its a 12 W daemon engine character that can do even more damage than a Maulerfiend. The thing has a movement of 12 inches. And if you take the soul forged detachment warlord trait. Then it moves 14 inches (as does all daemon engines around it). And there is a strategem to allow Daemon engine to advance and charge. There is also a black legion warlord trai that halves damage on a warlord. Taking that on a lord of discordant suddenly gives it an effective 24W. By itself, its efficient in points. And it just makes all melee daemon engines better. The key thing is that previously, CSM didn't clear chaff that well. Now that we can use the chain cannon to clear chaff, our melee daemon engines becomes so much more deadly now. They get to charge into the juicy stuff and wreck face. Another key thing is that its points efficient. For 750 points, you can bring 2 lord of discordant and 3 maulerfiends. Or for less, you can bring 2 Lord of discordant and 3 venomcrawlers. And these will go up and wreck face. Sure, expect that some of them will die. But at 150 or less each, its not a big loss if one dies. Enough will get through to wreck face as long as all the chaff is cleared by your chain cannons. If you have the money, some people are suggesting just ditch mauler fiends, take a command detachment and go full out Lord of discordants.

4. The basic CSM squad. which can now take reaper chain cannons. Go red corsairs and take 3 squads for +3 CP. CSM can now have lots of CP to use. Imagine that. And red corsairs has a strategem that lets you tide of traitors your CSM into the back field at full strength (with no limit to use) for 3 CP. Loyalists have their loyal 32, we have our spiky 17 as a CP battery.


Just about every other unit can have combos to make it work well.

5. Greater possessed and possessed. Have you seen a 20 man squad of possessed that has a -3 to hit and a 4++ invul save, and hits for up to str 8? You can have such a squad now. You just need a sorceror, a Dark Apostle and a greater possessed to buff it.

6. Predator tanks and hellbrutes with a 5++ invul. Take the new terrain piece and build your own personal shooty castle.

7. Raptors and warp talons. Go raptorial host. See my post above on the sorceror bike lord and raptorial host. You can have two secondary warlords, one that gives +2 charge movement, another that allows units to fall back and charge again. Bikes benefit from the fall back and charge too.

8. Flawless Host Daemon Prince warlord with Malefic claws and intoxicating elixir relic. This DP hits 8 attacks at str 8. But the key thing is that on 6s, he adds 4 attacks... Just think about that. 4 attacks. Roll 2 6s and you add 8 attacks to that base 8. Roll 4 6s and you add 16 attacks... lol If you don't care about fuff, make your flawless host DP mark of khorne. Now you can fury of khorne to make it fight a second time for double the chances to trigger 6s. You thought smash captains were scary... you haven't seen this guy in action yet... lol. If you are the kind of person that loves to roll 6s. This thing is for you. BTW, if you go with this, you should consider flawless host supreme command. You can either go multiple flawless host DPs, or you can go one warlord DP as in this para, and then multiple lord of discordants in a soulforged detachment. Daemon engines don't benefit from legion traits anyway, so they won't care. A good way to squeeze in a red corsiars detachment for +3cp, a black legion detachment, and a flawless host supreme command detachment for multiple themes. (Squeezing in everything you want to for just 2000 points might be just a bit of a challenge though lol).

9. Daemon engines. well all the new soulforge detachment trait, strategem, plus the MOP to buff invul save by 1 and another spell to give it 1 to reroll hit and wound. And taking LOD to further buff them. All daemon engines were buffed, its a matter of degree. Melee daemon engines were buffed more. I would still skip the forgefiends, too much effort needed to buff them just to make them decent...

10. The sourged deachment for shooting, and black legion and maybe brazen beasts and flawless host for melee. Everything got better at fighting. Black legion has strategem that gives +1 attack if you outnumber the enemy. Flawless host infantry are rocking out more hits because of their trait. Brazen beasts trait makes all 6s to wound become genestealers equivalent.

11. Even our terminators got better. because we can now take chainaxe and combi bolter terminators at just 29 points per model. 10 terminators marching up the board are shooting out 40 shots each turn and cost only 290 points.

12. We can take thunderhammers now. So, we have our own chaos smash captains. They only have a 4++ save. But make them mark of khorne and they will be rocking out double attacks as well because they can fight twice. They are cheaper than the loyalist smash captains because they can't buy a storm shield. Instead, they get to take relic combi bolters like angelsbane that is S5, AP-1, Damage 2, that becomes damage 3 on imperium unit... lol. Red corsairs have a combi melta that is rapid fire 3, so 6 shots at AP -1, D2, and a melta that is str 9. Don't forget, we can do raptorial host and raid leader shenanigens now. So,deep strike down, unload with your relic bolter, charge in at +2M, smash face with your thunder hammer, then fall back to the raid leader, shoot with your relic combi, and then charge in again to smash face a second target. Sounds... tasty. lol.

13. I forgot about my favourite unit. the Lord of skulls. MOP can buff its invul to 4++, a dark Apostle can give it -1 to hit. Run it with a Lord of discordant as part of soulforged supreme command detachment and it can +2 movement. and it can use the strategem to advance and charge. So you have a 12 inch movement LOS who can potentially advance and charge. Its a waste of its good guns actually. So, use the advance and charge strategem on the lord of discordant instead. you warp time this LOS up. So, turn one, you can potentially get a double charge off with a LOD and a LOS, and the LOS gets to shoot with its guns before it charges into combat too. If you use this strategy though, your MOP or DA won't be able to keep up though. Again, this strategy got so much better now because you can actually shoot away the chaff efficiently now whereas before this, it wasn't easy. BTW, run at least 2 LOD and the LOS in your soulforged detachment. You can make one LOD warlord which halves damage on him (giving effective 24W), the other LOD is the one that has the +2 movement warlord trait, and your LOS which you warptime up. He now has to choose between 2 priority targets (a 28w LOS or a 24W effective LOD) or the LOD which gives +2 movement. lol. Give your LOD baleflamers. More expensive, but they are range 18 inches assault weapons that autohit and you are advancing with your LOD anyway. So, you will have at least 2 bale flamers and the LOS heavy shooting going off before you charge into combat. Wanna go daemon engine, lets go big! lol And abuse daemonforge. 1cp to give your big daemon engine reroll to hit and wound. Who needs VOTLW when you can abuse this instead. lol

14. See? lol just about everything is good and can be combo into a theme now. There are only a few things which didn't quite get buffed much. The landraider is still bad, so is the helldrake, and forgefiend takes too much effort to be decent. And cultists are worse. Thats about everything I believe. lol. Even Rhinos are "better" if only because with the meta now also including those pesky Vindicare assasins, keeping characters in Rhinos is a way to save them from dying to headshots. Or you could also use those metal boxes to screen your character out of line of sight. Just make sure your characters are short.. lol. (And berserkers in rhinos have always been excellent anyway).

If y’all taking a Red Corsairs Detachment, consider:
- Huron yields +1CP if he’s your Warlord for 31pts more (is that changing?) than a nekkid CL (though he has a terrible Warlord Trait (is that changing?))
- That 31pts also buys you a DH spell and a Smite
- He can take a hit from an Exitus Rifle or like a Volcano Cannon and just kick his pet in the way

It’s an eclectic package, but I have to admit, not too shabby. Even if his detachment’s a throwaway CP battery, he’s going to be useful.

In fact, he’s just five points more than an actual Sorcerer, is a threat to deep insertion units, and can cast a buff spell on the EC Oblits or WE Possessed he’s fuelling

 lindsay40k wrote:
If y’all taking a Red Corsairs Detachment, consider:
- Huron yields +1CP if he’s your Warlord for 31pts more (is that changing?) than a nekkid CL (though he has a terrible Warlord Trait (is that changing?))
- That 31pts also buys you a DH spell and a Smite
- He can take a hit from an Exitus Rifle or like a Volcano Cannon and just kick his pet in the way

It’s an eclectic package, but I have to admit, not too shabby. Even if his detachment’s a throwaway CP battery, he’s going to be useful.

In fact, he’s just five points more than an actual Sorcerer, is a threat to deep insertion units, and can cast a buff spell on the EC Oblits or WE Possessed he’s fuelling

I really want to. I even have a Huron model. But the other black legion warlord trait trusted warleader. you get back 1 CP on a 5+ for every strategem you use. And we now have potentially lots of CPs to use strategems on... I am considering using council of traitors to give it to a sorceror or a DA .. lol If it triggers just once, it pays for itself. And if it triggers more than once in your whole game, you are up ahead. I suppose we can go with both Huron and a trusted warleader. Lol, CSM is becoming characer spam... lol And don't forget, the halves wound warlord trait on a Lord of discordant is so tasty.

Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but did Havocs get a price increase to go with their T5 and ignore movement penalty for heavy weapons? Also, are Autocannons still a decent choice for them, or is it going to be Chaincannons or nothing? I ask because I have a bunch of Autocannon Havocs sitting around and I'd love an excuse to get them out and play them.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but did Havocs get a price increase to go with their T5 and ignore movement penalty for heavy weapons? Also, are Autocannons still a decent choice for them, or is it going to be Chaincannons or nothing? I ask because I have a bunch of Autocannon Havocs sitting around and I'd love an excuse to get them out and play them.

They still the 14 points I believe. You can always run a batch of 3 havocs if you want to put the autocannon havocs in play. I think at least 1 if not 2 squads of reaper chain cannons are important. Your third havoc squad can have whatever you want them to have. Three reaper chain cannon squads are probably a bit of an overkill. That's 128 str 5 shots with cacophony ... lol

Just a though. With the new price reductions of termis, arent they encroaching on the pricepoint of equivalent geared chosen in a transport? If so it might be worth starting to run termis again, even without taking the new detachment bonuses in consideration.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but did Havocs get a price increase to go with their T5 and ignore movement penalty for heavy weapons? Also, are Autocannons still a decent choice for them, or is it going to be Chaincannons or nothing? I ask because I have a bunch of Autocannon Havocs sitting around and I'd love an excuse to get them out and play them.

They still the 14 points I believe. You can always run a batch of 3 havocs if you want to put the autocannon havocs in play. I think at least 1 if not 2 squads of reaper chain cannons are important. Your third havoc squad can have whatever you want them to have. Three reaper chain cannon squads are probably a bit of an overkill. That's 128 str 5 shots with cacophony ... lol

Slaneesh chaincannon havocs are one of those scary on paper type of units. In a practical game they will be blown off the board turn 1 as a priority (turn 2 if you hide them and then move them out)

they are still marines and die like marines, T5 only does so much.

Are Autocannon havocs worth considering? They are cheap, and have range and D2, unlike the chain cannons.

And do we know if the havoc champ has to take a special weapon? Can he take a combi-bolter?

My problem with the chaincannons is the sheer costs.

It costs like 2 HBs, and shoots like 2 HBs-but at lower range.

So yea, when you take the body into account, you pump up offensive efficiency by a lot-but also dump your defensive efficiency by quite a lot, and the loss of range doubles down on lost defense as well as the lost reach.


So...are they really THAT good?
Sure, lots of firepower-but low durability per cost.
A chaincannon havoc, compared to a HB havoc has x2 the firepower at x1.42 times the cost. that's about 40% increase in relative offensive ability.
But than again, its about a 30% loss of relative durability toa HB dude.
And HB are generally received as bad.
Is a 40% increase in firepower but a loss of 30% endurace plus the loss of most range really turn a bad gun to a great one?

I fear the chaincannon might be a bit overrated.

 Rydria wrote:
How do noise marine (troops) compare to the new buffed chaos space marines ?

Still superior to CSM, and now a better choice than cultists as well. Unless you running them as Red Corsairs to CP farm.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but did Havocs get a price increase to go with their T5 and ignore movement penalty for heavy weapons? Also, are Autocannons still a decent choice for them, or is it going to be Chaincannons or nothing? I ask because I have a bunch of Autocannon Havocs sitting around and I'd love an excuse to get them out and play them.

They still the 14 points I believe. You can always run a batch of 3 havocs if you want to put the autocannon havocs in play. I think at least 1 if not 2 squads of reaper chain cannons are important. Your third havoc squad can have whatever you want them to have. Three reaper chain cannon squads are probably a bit of an overkill. That's 128 str 5 shots with cacophony ... lol

Slaneesh chaincannon havocs are one of those scary on paper type of units. In a practical game they will be blown off the board turn 1 as a priority (turn 2 if you hide them and then move them out)

they are still marines and die like marines, T5 only does so much.

Correct. That's why you treat them almost like they are one shot. They will get just one turn once they expose themselves but that one turn is enough. Turn 1. move 6 inches, shoot 24 inches. Any bubble wrap or chaff within 30 inches dies. Now turn 2, they get focused on and die, but they have already done their job. All the chaff and bubble wrap are dead. Now the rest of your army is free to do whatever it wants. Plasma Terminators can deep strike within 24 inches because the bubble wrap is dead. Raptorial host can deep strike within 9 inches and charge because the bubble wrap is dead. Daemon engines, berserkers, posssesed can now charge his juicy stuff, because all the chaff are dead. One squad with 4 reaper chain cannons is only 145 points. Are you seriously going to mind if it dies? Especially after it has already done its job? If any survive to shoot turn 2 or more, its a bonus. They are expected to do their job already the turn they move forward and shoot. Whether they survive after that is actually a bit irrelevant. Bonus is they do, but still not a big deal. I honestly don't see any basis of comparision between autocannon vs heavy bolter vs chain cannon havocs. They are all equally tough. If enemy wants them dead, they are dead. But output of fire wise, chain cannon is leaps ahead. Its the equivalent of close to 3 heavy bolters. And when you apply cacophony, that's when the math becomes even more skewed towards the chain cannon havocs.

A cacoponied heavy bolter havoc squad only puts out 24 shots. A cacophonied chain cannon squad puts out 64 shots...

And about the range. Yes, an opponent can take that into account. But that means he has to take into account the movement 6 as well. So... your opponent is determined to deploy everything, bubble wrap, chaff, all his army beyond 30 inches of your havocs. So, now your havocs have created a 30 inch no go zone he does not dare to approach with his chaff and fodder. While you are advancing up the board with your CSM squads, capturing objectives, etc etc. If he wants to play like that, he is already behind in the objective game. I don't know how many armies specialise in fighting at beyond 30 inches anyway. Imperium soup doesn't (because infantry squads only shoot 24, and they are terrible if they do that). CSM doesn't, chaos doesn't. orcs doesn't. Tyranids definitely don't. seriously, are there a lot of armies out there that actually stand at over 30 inches and blast you to bits ?

The chain cannon gives us a lot. But I think if we are trying to play "outshoot" our opponent, we are losing a lot of what makes CSM good. CSM isn't about being the absolute best at shooting. (At least it has never been known to be the best at shooting from my understanding).

The purge would disagree with you...

I feel like something to guarantee an alpha strike would make chaincannons very scary indeed.