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 Marius Xerxes wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm suprised there's not more noise being made about the council of traitors stratigium. it is soimewhat build specific, but the ability to get 3 warlords traits just seems o have some pretty good options.

They can have up to four, if I've read everything correctly. In addition to the BL Stratagem, pg 160 has the Field Commander Stratagem that gives one character (not your WL or a named character) in a specialist detachment the WL trait for that specific detachment as well. So you can have three characters plus your actual warlord all with traits.

I think you can use Field Commander multiple times too on separate specialist detachments. So 6 traits total if you have 3 detachments.

Yeah, and I am coming round to raptorial host of smash hammer or superhero jumppack chaos lords to take care of superheavies. you just need two, and I think mathematically, they should be able to bust open a castellan or superheavy. And even if they die after that, its a worthwhile trade off.

Abaddon is really tough to fit into lists. For the points he cost, you absolutely need to build a list around him. And although he moves 6, its still just 6 inches. If you deep strike him in, you don't benefit from him first turn, you need to clear a space for him, and you absolutely need to deep strike him in with buddies so that his aura is isn't wasted. So, this means Oblits or terminators. But over commit to this, and you re facing the opponent with only half an army before they come in because just Abaddon alone is 240 points.

Put Abaddon in a gun line and then he is basically there as a countercharge beatstick. Its probably the best use, but ,,, sigh gun line armies are so boring... And we don't do it quite as good as say Guard, Mechanicus or Tau. I mean, our OP chain gun is only 24 inches. You simply can't play a gunline army using that. The rest of our long range heavy support shooties have been around for ages and you don't see them beating tournaments. A gunline army is also super static. Objectives are going to be tough.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Marius Xerxes wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm suprised there's not more noise being made about the council of traitors stratigium. it is soimewhat build specific, but the ability to get 3 warlords traits just seems o have some pretty good options.

They can have up to four, if I've read everything correctly. In addition to the BL Stratagem, pg 160 has the Field Commander Stratagem that gives one character (not your WL or a named character) in a specialist detachment the WL trait for that specific detachment as well. So you can have three characters plus your actual warlord all with traits.

I think you can use Field Commander multiple times too on separate specialist detachments. So 6 traits total if you have 3 detachments.

True. Suppose it comes down to if there is multiple specialist detachments that can be built to a functional level in 2k points. But true for sure.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Marius Xerxes wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm suprised there's not more noise being made about the council of traitors stratigium. it is soimewhat build specific, but the ability to get 3 warlords traits just seems o have some pretty good options.

They can have up to four, if I've read everything correctly. In addition to the BL Stratagem, pg 160 has the Field Commander Stratagem that gives one character (not your WL or a named character) in a specialist detachment the WL trait for that specific detachment as well. So you can have three characters plus your actual warlord all with traits.

I think you can use Field Commander multiple times too on separate specialist detachments. So 6 traits total if you have 3 detachments.

I don't think there is anything that says we can't have multiple specialist detachments within a batallion. Like say a Batallion has 2 chaos lords. 1 warpsmith, a raptor unit, 2 havocs unit and a Daemon Engine (Defiler). You can take devastation battery (1 lord and 2 havocs), raptorial host (1 jumpack lord and raptor unit) and soulforged detchment (1 warpsmith and the defiler). Correct me if I am wrong here. There is no overlap here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just thought of something unfluffy but totally sneaky. We all know Berserkers scary. But they are flimsy. So, we put them in Rhinos, which are flimsy as well.

But Consider a mark of nurgle Rhino. Stuff 2 squads of 5 zerkers into it. Then at the start of your turn, you have your DA cast the -1 to hit prayer on it. The rhino then move advance 12+d6 inches are pops smoke. Now its -2 to hit. You then have your nurgle sorceror cast Miasma of pestilence on it.

Suddenly, you now have a -3 to hit Rhino with 10 berserkers in it. What is your opponent gonna do. Ignore the Rhino knowing that next turn, those 10 zerkers are going to get out and wreck face? Or try and shoot it at -3 .. lol

You actually only need to keep it up for 1 turn. Turn 2, once your zerkers get off, the Rhino doesn't need the protection anymore. So, your sorceror and DA are now free to go and buff other units. The unfluffy part is that your zerkers are riding in a nurgle Rhino... lol.

Oh well, this works with a DA only too if you want to insist on being fluffy, but you just have to be happy with just a -2 to hit Rhino instead of -3... lol. The thing I love about this is that it forces your opponent to focus precious heavy support guns shooting a 70 point Rhino, which happens to be extremely difficult to kill too! lol.

Actually, you can go herohammer bus with this strategy. Stuff like 6 greater possessed, a master of executioner, a fighty chaos lord and a exalted champion into this unkillable Rhino. Then charge it up the battlefield and pop smoke. He either tries to kill the Rhino, or face an absolute storm of heroes coming out of the Rhino to smash face on turn 2. And wow, actually, I think that contingent could is an absolute wrecking ball.

You can have 2 Rhinos on standby, with the heroes and some zerkers behind them out of line of sight. Then turn 1, decide on which Rhino you want to buff, stuff all the heroes in it, stuff your zerkers in the other one and charge it up with the strategy. So, he would have to destroy 2 empty Rhinos to foil your strategy if he went first... lol I love this simply because imagine how stupid your opponent feels when he goes first and he is forced to shoot his big guns into two empty Rhinos.... lol Because if he doesn't ....one of them is going to become super hard to hit and kill with a can of absolute whoopass in it!!! lol

You can go 2 squads of plasma chosen to sort of hedge your bets. If your Rhino gets blown up, your chosen can still walk up the field and shoot the plasma at 24 inches. (at least they can do something). If you get to go first, then they pile into the Rhino, it charges up the board and becomes -3 to hit turn 1. Turn 2, your plasma chosen can get out 3 inches, move 6, and double tap to death whatever you want. Stack cacophony for more plasma doubletaps. lol.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Marius Xerxes wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm suprised there's not more noise being made about the council of traitors stratigium. it is soimewhat build specific, but the ability to get 3 warlords traits just seems o have some pretty good options.

They can have up to four, if I've read everything correctly. In addition to the BL Stratagem, pg 160 has the Field Commander Stratagem that gives one character (not your WL or a named character) in a specialist detachment the WL trait for that specific detachment as well. So you can have three characters plus your actual warlord all with traits.

I think you can use Field Commander multiple times too on separate specialist detachments. So 6 traits total if you have 3 detachments.

I don't think there is anything that says we can't have multiple specialist detachments within a batallion. Like say a Batallion has 2 chaos lords. 1 warpsmith, a raptor unit, 2 havocs unit and a Daemon Engine (Defiler). You can take devastation battery (1 lord and 2 havocs), raptorial host (1 jumpack lord and raptor unit) and soulforged detchment (1 warpsmith and the defiler). Correct me if I am wrong here. There is no overlap here.

Sorry to rain on your parade :( but page 160 of Vigilus Ablaze says...

A Detachment from your army can only be upgraded to a Specialist Detachment once and thus cannot have multiple Specialist Detachment Stratagems applied to it, even if they affect different units in the Detachment.

Also I'm not sure your opponent would always fall for your hard to hit Rhino trap. It's much easier to just ignore it in that case and focus on your other threats and come up with a solution for the Berserkers after they disembark. If the opponent's only answer for Berserkers is to strand them, then I can see that being a fantastic way to go about it. But they probably should and would have a second gameplan if that fails.

Awww, I am disappointed only 1 specialist detachment per normal detachment. lol Oh well. It would have been too op anyways. because we would have so many warlords running around lol.

Anyway, what I love about the hard to kill Rhino strategy is that its actually very cheap. The DA and sorceror is only used on turn 1. After that, they are free to buff and do other things. The Rhino is only 70 points. 2 squads of 5 zerkers each are under 100 points each squad (even with their powerfist champs). But if he does choose to ignore that Rhino. I am pretty sure that 2 zerker squads with powerfist champs will do damage far beyond their points on turn 2 and onwards.

Theoratically, you can split the miasma and the prayer to two Rhinos so that they each get -2 to hit. I supposed you could conceivably argue for ignoring 1 Rhino. But are you going to ignore 2 Rhinos with 3 squads of berserkers and an exalted champion and Huron in it? I think if you did, you do so at your own peril. I think 3 squads of zerkers with those 2 getting into your opponent lines with the ability to fight twice, (use the khorne strategem to fight again), so one of them fights 3 times... Seriously, they will probably smash any gunline they hit. Just make sure you clear away the chaff with your remaining 1400 points of army.

What I love about this is that we are probably running red corsairs batallion anyway for +3 cp. This allows us to use that batallion to take 3 squads of zerkers, and exalted champion and a Rhino for a strategy that ties in well with red corsairs anyway. So now, when we disembark from the Rhino, we can move, advance and then charge because of the red corsairs trait. The reach of the zerkers will be absolutely phenominal lol.

We can use the other 1400 points for shooting, to clear chaff, etc etc, and for other specialist detachments and stuff but this 600 points of crazed zerkers inside 2 rhinos which are -2 to hit just cannot be ignored. I mean, yes you can ignore it. But I don't know how many armies are ok with 2 Rhinos is the middle of the board on turn 2 with 19 zerkers and an exalted champion, with a melee charge reach of 9+d6+2d6 (That's 19 inches average reach ... lol).

So the real question is if the Lord Discordant counts as a Lord for the purpose of that Strategem. If he does...oh Lordy

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So the real question is if the Lord Discordant counts as a Lord for the purpose of that Strategem. If he does...oh Lordy

?? Which strategem are you talking about? @@ If you mean field commander. He absolutely does. You can use field commander on a character and the Lord of DIscordant counts as a character. But he of course needs to also be allowed to be given the specialist keyword. So, raptorial host and bringers of dispair is out for him (jump packs and termi armor dudes). But soul forged detachment he definitely qualifies because he is a warpsmith keyword too. I think he only applies to devastation battery and soulforged detachment because those allow warpsmiths. He doesn't really fit devastation battery very well, because he doesn't really want to baby sit oblits and havocs. lol. Anyway, this is why you could have a command detachment of 3 LOD, and you can make 1 a warlord with halves all dmg, make another the soul forged detachment warlord to give the +2 Movement. And nominate all 3 LOD. So, now you have 3 LOD moving at 14 inches and 1 of them halve all dmg. lol.

And actually, if you have the points and want to go all out. supreme commande detachment allows for a Lord of war too. So go ahead and fit in a Kytan Ravager or LOS into that detachment and make it part of the soulforge detachment as well. (evil grin)

 Roknar wrote:
Not sure if this has come up, but do we know what weapons a lord discordant can pick?
I don't imagine h's be able to take a poweraxe for the axe relic that adds +1 to hit vs imperium. A warpsmith can take an axe....soooo ?

It wold be more for the lulz, but getting DttfE on a 2 plus would be pretty funny with all buffs with only one of those buffs being cast, everything else would be static.
Still the axe on anything else would allow for 3+ triggers. Does that carry over to mount attacks?

Not sure if already answered, Lord Discordant can't change any weapons, only option is to replace autocannon with a baleflamer and the Helstalker can replace technovirus injector with magma cutter (I would never do that, injector is amazing)

So standard kitout for Lord is Impaler Chainglaive, Bolt Pistol, Frag/Krak Grenades, Mechantendrils and Autocannon or Baleflamer.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
Not sure if this has come up, but do we know what weapons a lord discordant can pick?
I don't imagine h's be able to take a poweraxe for the axe relic that adds +1 to hit vs imperium. A warpsmith can take an axe....soooo ?

It wold be more for the lulz, but getting DttfE on a 2 plus would be pretty funny with all buffs with only one of those buffs being cast, everything else would be static.
Still the axe on anything else would allow for 3+ triggers. Does that carry over to mount attacks?

Not sure if already answered, Lord Discordant can't change any weapons, only option is to replace autocannon with a baleflamer and the Helstalker can replace technovirus injector with magma cutter (I would never do that, injector is amazing)

So standard kitout for Lord is Impaler Chainglaive, Bolt Pistol, Frag/Krak Grenades, Mechantendrils and Autocannon or Baleflamer.

figured as much...lame.

Well the relic of the soulforged pack is pretty good, and its like made for the LOD. It makes his mecantendrils into Str 5, -1 AP, D2 plus it can make 1 one attack for every enemy model within 1 inch of it.

Seriously though, a Lord Discordant with any one of the Intoxicating Elixir, the Sightless Helm or Mecha-Serpents is an absolute wrecking ball, and a tough nut if you put the halving damage Black Legion trait on them; if you run multiple, you gotta use the specialist warlord stratagem to take the Soulforged pack trait for the +2" movement bubble. So stoked that it looks like it's going to be under $120 AUD too. I'm obsessed with this thing if you couldn't tell

A good tip for those wanting to get more chain-cannons; get the Obliterator with the minigun, cut the barrel off, do the same to a Marine wielding an autocannon and swap them. Bam, extra chaincanoon.

Flawless Host Lord of Discordant with its native +1 to hit and Ultimate Confidence looks way better than an FH Daemon Prince with the same trait. 11 attacks triggering on 5s without Presience potentially resulting in 44 attacks on Imperium units is dumb insane. And only dumber with the Mecha-serpents relic, given the size of his base.

Actually just a thought, now with recycling available on marines and Cultists, could we run a horde list based around that?

Invul wrote:
Flawless Host Lord of Discordant with its native +1 to hit and Ultimate Confidence looks way better than an FH Daemon Prince with the same trait. 11 attacks triggering on 5s without Presience potentially resulting in 44 attacks on Imperium units is dumb insane. And only dumber with the Mecha-serpents relic, given the size of his base.

In a way, yes, but, then the Lord will get shot off the table turn 1, whereas the Prince likely won't.

Kdash wrote:

Invul wrote:
Flawless Host Lord of Discordant with its native +1 to hit and Ultimate Confidence looks way better than an FH Daemon Prince with the same trait. 11 attacks triggering on 5s without Presience potentially resulting in 44 attacks on Imperium units is dumb insane. And only dumber with the Mecha-serpents relic, given the size of his base.

In a way, yes, but, then the Lord will get shot off the table turn 1, whereas the Prince likely won't.

Why likely? Size?

Invul wrote:

Kdash wrote:

Invul wrote:
Flawless Host Lord of Discordant with its native +1 to hit and Ultimate Confidence looks way better than an FH Daemon Prince with the same trait. 11 attacks triggering on 5s without Presience potentially resulting in 44 attacks on Imperium units is dumb insane. And only dumber with the Mecha-serpents relic, given the size of his base.

In a way, yes, but, then the Lord will get shot off the table turn 1, whereas the Prince likely won't.

Why likely? Size?

Yeah, he's a character that is above the 8 wound "untargetable" rule. Meaning, if you don't go first, he can be shot without issue.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Actually just a thought, now with recycling available on marines and Cultists, could we run a horde list based around that?

With one cheap brigade and two RC Batallions you could get 60 cultist and 30 CSM. 90 recyclable models with 32 command points to recycle with. So, sure.

Invul wrote:
Flawless Host Lord of Discordant with its native +1 to hit and Ultimate Confidence looks way better than an FH Daemon Prince with the same trait. 11 attacks triggering on 5s without Presience potentially resulting in 44 attacks on Imperium units is dumb insane. And only dumber with the Mecha-serpents relic, given the size of his base.

Lord of Disco actually does not benefit from Ultimate confidence as he does not gain Flawless host Renegade trait (neither infantry, bike, helbrute nor demon prince).

Gorgnoob wrote:

Invul wrote:
Flawless Host Lord of Discordant with its native +1 to hit and Ultimate Confidence looks way better than an FH Daemon Prince with the same trait. 11 attacks triggering on 5s without Presience potentially resulting in 44 attacks on Imperium units is dumb insane. And only dumber with the Mecha-serpents relic, given the size of his base.

Lord of Disco actually does not benefit from Ultimate confidence as he does not gain Flawless host Renegade trait (neither infantry, bike, helbrute nor demon prince).

Crap.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Actually just a thought, now with recycling available on marines and Cultists, could we run a horde list based around that?

With one cheap brigade and two RC Batallions you could get 60 cultist and 30 CSM. 90 recyclable models with 32 command points to recycle with. So, sure.

Its kinda overkill. I think at least one RC battalion and 1 legion Battalion is great already. If you run 3 battalions, one of which is RC, its probably more CP than we can ever imagine having already. How many CPs is the cutoff before you reach a stage where you can't finish using them in a game. lol.

Slaanesh double shooting.

I thought more along a 5, 5, 20. Battalion 2x and a legion one for VotLW shenanigans.

Cacophony only cost 2 CP. And bear in mind, deadly units that see their firepower magnified with that strategem are always given a high priority to being eliminated. Let's put it this way, if your 3 man Oblit was ignored and allowed to use cacophony every turn for the whole game, then I wouldn't be surprised if the opponent lost the game (because his army was obliterated lol).

Having said that. I can imagine easily blowing through 5 or more CP in turn 1 and 2. And if you can keep that up till turn 3 with good units, it would already be a huge advantage.

As an example: consider how cacophony doubles the firepower of a Oblit unit. And there is also VOTLW. So, leaving aside VOLTW, just 4 rounds of Cacophony is just 8 CP, but it effectively means you were able to double an Oblit unit firepower for 4 turns (assuming it comes down on turn 2). That effectively means you were playing with an extra Oblit unit in your army (the equal to 345 points).

Tide of traitors on 30 man cultists. You spend 2 CP, get back 100+ points.

More where they came from on a 20 man CSM RC unit. You get back over 200 points worth. And you can use this more than once per game for 3 CP.

So erm yeah, not even counting the other strategems, if you were allowed to use just the above 3 strategems well in the first 3 turns, you would effectively be playing with at least 700 points more than your opponent.

I belive just theory wise, wouldn't you also use cacophony on the 20/30 squads to maximize dice?

Basically the list i imagine would field 60 Corsairs /30 per battalion and a 3rd legion heavy Support detachment ((AL). In combination with that a lot of mobile sorceres, dp 's and lords.

20 cp, 40 marines for forward recycling and 30 legion cultists aswell.

Hard hitters in Form of Dp 's etc.
Might be worth a try, or atleast as a skew list.

rhino ideal is cool!

funny thing is you could get the DA to bless the rhino then in his movement phase he can actually jump in it XD

can do the same thing with alpha legion plague marines!
20 AL plague marines -3 to hit them and when you do they're T5 with a 5+ FNP.... gooooood luck shifting them

Those rhinos are going to need some kind of distraction carnifex when facing a list that can kill a Castellan


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Right. Maelstrom of War.

Chaos have got unique objectives for: CSM, Daemons, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, and Black Legion.

We also have the capability to have multiple Warlords, only one of whom will dictate our objectives (and free relic).

Would anyone with a soupy list change anything depending on whether or not it was a Maelstrom game?

 Latro_ wrote:
rhino ideal is cool!

funny thing is you could get the DA to bless the rhino then in his movement phase he can actually jump in it XD

can do the same thing with alpha legion plague marines!
20 AL plague marines -3 to hit them and when you do they're T5 with a 5+ FNP.... gooooood luck shifting them

Glad you liked the idea!

 Latro_ wrote:
rhino ideal is cool!

funny thing is you could get the DA to bless the rhino then in his movement phase he can actually jump in it XD

can do the same thing with alpha legion plague marines!
20 AL plague marines -3 to hit them and when you do they're T5 with a 5+ FNP.... gooooood luck shifting them

I guess the spray weapons would work well here for the unit loadout? The only way to effectively clear these is with autohitting weapons - which are usually short ranged - or by hitting them hard in melee?

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So the real question is if the Lord Discordant counts as a Lord for the purpose of that Strategem. If he does...oh Lordy

?? Which strategem are you talking about? @@ If you mean field commander. He absolutely does. You can use field commander on a character and the Lord of DIscordant counts as a character. But he of course needs to also be allowed to be given the specialist keyword. So, raptorial host and bringers of dispair is out for him (jump packs and termi armor dudes). But soul forged detachment he definitely qualifies because he is a warpsmith keyword too. I think he only applies to devastation battery and soulforged detachment because those allow warpsmiths. He doesn't really fit devastation battery very well, because he doesn't really want to baby sit oblits and havocs. lol. Anyway, this is why you could have a command detachment of 3 LOD, and you can make 1 a warlord with halves all dmg, make another the soul forged detachment warlord to give the +2 Movement. And nominate all 3 LOD. So, now you have 3 LOD moving at 14 inches and 1 of them halve all dmg. lol.

And actually, if you have the points and want to go all out. supreme commande detachment allows for a Lord of war too. So go ahead and fit in a Kytan Ravager or LOS into that detachment and make it part of the soulforge detachment as well. (evil grin)

I was talking about Council of Traitors.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So the real question is if the Lord Discordant counts as a Lord for the purpose of that Strategem. If he does...oh Lordy

?? Which strategem are you talking about? @@ If you mean field commander. He absolutely does. You can use field commander on a character and the Lord of DIscordant counts as a character. But he of course needs to also be allowed to be given the specialist keyword. So, raptorial host and bringers of dispair is out for him (jump packs and termi armor dudes). But soul forged detachment he definitely qualifies because he is a warpsmith keyword too. I think he only applies to devastation battery and soulforged detachment because those allow warpsmiths. He doesn't really fit devastation battery very well, because he doesn't really want to baby sit oblits and havocs. lol. Anyway, this is why you could have a command detachment of 3 LOD, and you can make 1 a warlord with halves all dmg, make another the soul forged detachment warlord to give the +2 Movement. And nominate all 3 LOD. So, now you have 3 LOD moving at 14 inches and 1 of them halve all dmg. lol.

And actually, if you have the points and want to go all out. supreme commande detachment allows for a Lord of war too. So go ahead and fit in a Kytan Ravager or LOS into that detachment and make it part of the soulforge detachment as well. (evil grin)

I was talking about Council of Traitors.

The Lord Discordant does not qualify for any of the positions on a Council of Traitors. His only relevant keyword is WARPSMITH.