Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What is the RC warlord trait? My vigilus book failed to arrive at my FLGS because GW messed up the order

You get an extra relic for your army and your warlord gains +1A for killing enemy characters.

Only problem with that coming with Huron, is you need two more characters to give the relics to. Superbolter good for a bike or termie sorcerer, or maybe a warpsmith for the bs2.

Unrelated, but has anyone figured out the base size of the Lord Discordant yet? He looks pretty small, judging be the scale of the rider. I was hoping to convert one from a maulerfiend, but it's looking to be too big.

No official way to tell but the Lord discordant seems about venomcrawler sized.

So what seems better for a CP battery to you guys? The 170p "heretical 32" ofrom renegades or Red Corsairs with Huron? The Red Corsairs obviously get way more CP, but also costs roughly double.

What are people's thoughts on the scourged Legion trait? Considering using it for my tzeenchIan renegades (I'm aware red corsairs is better but scourged feels very tzeenchy)

Looks like a solid gun-line trait.
Reliable MSU-shooting and a potent overwatch.
Their relic and warlord trait are pretty meh though.

If I didn't already own 2 CSM-armies, I'd seriously consider building renegade Tzeentch-chapter featuring their rules.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
What are people's thoughts on the scourged Legion trait? Considering using it for my tzeenchIan renegades (I'm aware red corsairs is better but scourged feels very tzeenchy)

Red Corsairs really aren't better outside getting more CP.
Personally with Orks and Cults and, well, CSM, I'm thinking the Overwatch bonus is nice and all. Anything gained out of the Salamanders copy-pasta is just a bonus.

Okay, time for Havocs vs Obliterators. This is important for deciding just what you ought to take in your Devastation Battery.
I'm running Oblits at the shadowspear price of 115pts, and their weapon with average rolls. So Str8, ap-2, D2.



The main comparison to make is Oblits vs Reaper Chain Cannons, as those are both 24" range. And funnily enough, we see that point for point, the reaper is more efficient against everything, but especially against horde infantry. This is mainly because of the cost difference. The Oblit is ~3x the cost of the Chain Cannon Havoc.

Autocannons are even cheaper. You get the whole squad of 4x autocannons and 1x champ for 5pts less than a single Oblit! And they also actually meet or beat the Obliterator in efficiency per point in almost every area, although which areas changes a bit with re-roll 1's to hit. With re-roll 1's to hit and wound, they are exactly the same vs the tanks.

The Lascannon is behind on infantry and slightly ahead on the tanks, with the difference increasing once the re-rolls are introduced.

So in pure offensive power, the havocs actually come in ahead for the most part. But of course, this comparison actually has more to it because of how different these units are. On the surface of it, we can notice that for the price of 3 Oblits, we can afford 10 Chain Cannon Havocs. But of course, those would be split into 3 squads, only one of which can benefit from VotLW or Shoot Twice. Oblits have the biggest benefit from strats because they let you concentrate the most shooting power into a single squad.

Also note that I used average, middle of the road rolls for the Oblits. If they rolled worse it would perform worse against some targets, but not necessarily vs all of them. If they had only str7 instead of 8, that wouldn't change anything vs the Guardsmen. And Ap-1 wouldn't change anything vs the Boyz. If they roll D1, they lose out on a lot vs tanks.

And how about Defense? The Oblits are 4 wounds per 115. Chain Cannon havocs are ~3.5, and autocannons are ~5. But the Obliterator has 2+ Armor, which effectively doubles its durability over the havoc vs AP0. And the Invul of 5++ doubles it vs AP-3 (plasma.) They are vulnerable to high Damage weapons, but between the armor and invul, they are still much more durable per point than the Havocs. And that's before you consider that they can get Daemon Keyword defensive buffs, and are easier to benefit with defensive buffs that target a single unit. And they have a nice melee weapon. And Deep Strike.

So overall, Oblits are the superior unit, even at the shadowspear price point. But a lot of that is due to strats and buffs that will be in short supply. So you should fill a full unit of Oblits, but you may want to consider Havocs instead of a second unit of Oblits. After all, you can get 3 squads of Autocannon havocs for the cost of 3 Oblits! And they have the 48" range going for them.

That's why I'm still a big fan of Autocannon Havocs, even moreso with this update.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Red Corsairs really aren't better outside getting more CP.

Apples and Oranges, but overall, I agree.

Red Corsairs have a trait that focuses on offense, mobility and close combat.
The Scourged have a trait that focuses on defense, immobility and shooting.

They shouldn't really be compared in a "what's best way", because they're so different.

Now, if we compare legions/chapters that all focus on offense and close combat, I'd say that Red Corsairs are better than both World Eaters and Brazen Beasts.
Not only because they get CP for doing basically nothing, nor because Huron is pretty good, but because Red Corsairs can easily make turn-1 charges, something World Eaters and Brazen Beasts more or less can't.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's why I'm still a big fan of Autocannon Havocs, even moreso with this update.

Lookng at a spread sheet is misleading though. I'd agree they are great if it wasn't for the rule of 3. I don't really feel like wasting one of my precious 3 havoc slots on auto canons. That efficiency per point only matters in volume, which you can't really get when your restricted. Las Canons look worse, much worse by comparison until you realize how much more damage potential you can pack in.

Again, they were never bad, it is just a matter of them losing out to better things most of the time.

Technically they also can throw 20 man marine blobs into the faces of people, is that good? I mean it's not bad but the cultists bomb still has more use.

 MinscS2 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Red Corsairs really aren't better outside getting more CP.

Apples and Oranges, but overall, I agree.

Red Corsairs have a trait that focuses on offense, mobility and close combat.
The Scourged have a trait that focuses on defense, immobility and shooting.

They shouldn't really be compared in a "what's best way", because they're so different.

Now, if we compare legions/chapters that all focus on offense and close combat, I'd say that Red Corsairs are better than both World Eaters and Brazen Beasts.
Not only because they get CP for doing basically nothing, nor because Huron is pretty good, but because Red Corsairs can easily make turn-1 charges, something World Eaters and Brazen Beasts more or less can't.

I actually think there's some merit to Brazen Beasts when it comes to Berserker Marines and Warp Talons. The increased mobility of Red Corsairs is definitely more appreciated to me though.

Especially if (maybe after a FAQ) they're both locked into Khorne. Gooooodbye warptime!

I played old renegades almost predominantly before VA, and having advance and charge is just SO useful. Chaos has a pretty powerful punch, and there's not much that will outfight you (especially in a shooty meta), and anything that can will want to come to you so you can plan around it. To tackle any other threat, you -need- to be fast. Anything else is worthless if you arent fast.
Things like berzerkers or helbrutes are just slow as tar without it, but it's definitely something you need to build a list around to get the most milage.

IMO, brazen beast zerkers fall into the same trap as world-eater zerkers. Zerkers are plenty killy enough, they dont need MORE damage. Once they hit a target, they'll either blenderzie it completely, or cripple it to the point of being ineffective anyway. Either way, they're a glass cannon, and the more important part is getting them to their targets in the first place.

The only real loss going RC's is veterans of the long war. It's a great stratagem for sure but your focus inside a list is the big factor. If your focusing on assault, I'd say advance and charge is way better overall then +1 to wound on a single unit. As that meme already stated, combat buffs are worthless if you can't get in. Being able to advance and charge is a big deal and should get your models in combat much sooner which compensates for that loss anyway.

I find VoTLW is used much more often in my shooting lists for obvious reasons.

I am waffling right now on playing RC's or Black legion. Ultimately I'll end up using both but right now I can't decide which to try first.

 McGibs wrote:
Especially if (maybe after a FAQ) they're both locked into Khorne. Gooooodbye warptime!

I played old renegades almost predominantly before VA, and having advance and charge is just SO useful. Chaos has a pretty powerful punch, and there's not much that will outfight you (especially in a shooty meta), and anything that can will want to come to you so you can plan around it. To tackle any other threat, you -need- to be fast. Anything else is worthless if you arent fast.
Things like berzerkers or helbrutes are just slow as tar without it, but it's definitely something you need to build a list around to get the most milage.

IMO, brazen beast zerkers fall into the same trap as world-eater zerkers. Zerkers are plenty killy enough, they dont need MORE damage. Once they hit a target, they'll either blenderzie it completely, or cripple it to the point of being ineffective anyway. Either way, they're a glass cannon, and the more important part is getting them to their targets in the first place.

The advantage to the Brazen Beasts over World Eaters though is they don't need to charge. It'll activate the first combat no matter what, which is why I believe in some merit there. It won't cutting edge though that's for sure.

That's also why I'm leaning towards an Outrider Raptorial Host as Brazen Beasts. Raptors will enjoy actually making a charge on a 7" rerollable, and Warp Talons will enjoy the extra AP on bigger targets.

Not sure if this has come up, but do we know what weapons a lord discordant can pick?
I don't imagine h's be able to take a poweraxe for the axe relic that adds +1 to hit vs imperium. A warpsmith can take an axe....soooo ?

It wold be more for the lulz, but getting DttfE on a 2 plus would be pretty funny with all buffs with only one of those buffs being cast, everything else would be static.
Still the axe on anything else would allow for 3+ triggers. Does that carry over to mount attacks?

 Roknar wrote:
Not sure if this has come up, but do we know what weapons a lord discordant can pick?
I don't imagine h's be able to take a poweraxe for the axe relic that adds +1 to hit vs imperium. A warpsmith can take an axe....soooo ?

It wold be more for the lulz, but getting DttfE on a 2 plus would be pretty funny with all buffs with only one of those buffs being cast, everything else would be static.
Still the axe on anything else would allow for 3+ triggers. Does that carry over to mount attacks?

Yes, this guy is a crazy blender. And I would actually give him the relic mechatedrils against none imperium. Most horde out their isn't imperial so they help him keep his attacks up in the crazy numbers.

Anyone else notice the starting wargear for the Havocs in the 2.0 codex? Aspiring champ gets a flamer, and the Havocs either Heavy Bolters or Lascannons.

With the masque you can get the prince triggering on 4s, my question is is there anything else that can add to the hit rolls in the game that I'm missing? I know with possessed you can give them an icon so they're triggering extra hits on 3s but idk of anything more than that

 l0k1 wrote:
Anyone else notice the starting wargear for the Havocs in the 2.0 codex? Aspiring champ gets a flamer, and the Havocs either Heavy Bolters or Lascannons.

The flamer would be the cheapest option and give some overwatch I guess. I'd probably switch to a Combi-Bolter if I could though. Haven't seen the fully updated datasheet yet.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
Anyone else notice the starting wargear for the Havocs in the 2.0 codex? Aspiring champ gets a flamer, and the Havocs either Heavy Bolters or Lascannons.

The flamer would be the cheapest option and give some overwatch I guess. I'd probably switch to a Combi-Bolter if I could though. Haven't seen the fully updated datasheet yet.

"-The Aspiring Champion may replace his flamer with one item from the Champion Equipment or Special Weapons list.
- The Aspiring Champion may replace his chainsword with one item from the Champion Equipment list."

So you can take just a boltgun and chainsword if you want to save the points.
Also note that the plasma gun and combi-plasma cost the same number of points these days, so there's literally no reason to ever take a plasma gun.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
Especially if (maybe after a FAQ) they're both locked into Khorne. Gooooodbye warptime!

I played old renegades almost predominantly before VA, and having advance and charge is just SO useful. Chaos has a pretty powerful punch, and there's not much that will outfight you (especially in a shooty meta), and anything that can will want to come to you so you can plan around it. To tackle any other threat, you -need- to be fast. Anything else is worthless if you arent fast.
Things like berzerkers or helbrutes are just slow as tar without it, but it's definitely something you need to build a list around to get the most milage.

IMO, brazen beast zerkers fall into the same trap as world-eater zerkers. Zerkers are plenty killy enough, they dont need MORE damage. Once they hit a target, they'll either blenderzie it completely, or cripple it to the point of being ineffective anyway. Either way, they're a glass cannon, and the more important part is getting them to their targets in the first place.

The advantage to the Brazen Beasts over World Eaters though is they don't need to charge. It'll activate the first combat no matter what, which is why I believe in some merit there. It won't cutting edge though that's for sure.

That's also why I'm leaning towards an Outrider Raptorial Host as Brazen Beasts. Raptors will enjoy actually making a charge on a 7" rerollable, and Warp Talons will enjoy the extra AP on bigger targets.

If your berserkers are getting charged, they're already dead.
If the enemy is actually ballsy enough to charge a unit of berserkers, it's probably with a unit that with annihilate them before they can fight.

I would agree that Berzerkers don't usually need even more power. They destroy most stuff they charge anyway. And yet, its almost impossible to make them hardy enough if they get targeted by dedicated firepower. This is why last time I argued for the need to even have heroes like exalted champions or dark apostles with them.

Because if you run 2 squads of 5 zerkers in a Rhino, vs 1 squad of 8 and 1 exalted champion. You get more damage out of 2 squads of zerkers, who can go off and charge and destroy 4 targets (fight twice). One exalted champion is never going to equal to melee power of a squad of 5.

On the red corsairs thingy. I would really go red corsairs for at least 1 batallion for the +3CP. Its too good not to pass. And all we need is one legion detachment where we place our big guns like Oblits if we want VOTLW.

Again, we also need to look at our own lists and what we want to run. Not everything needs VOTLW.

Daemon Engines cannot use it. nor can they use traits. So, if you want to run Daemon Engines, that red corsairs batallion which you are already taking is a good choice to take them.

Berserkers may not necessarily need VOTLW. They obliterate anything they touch anyway. And Str 5, str 6 kills most infantry fine, and Str 10 on their powerfist wounds everything on a 3.

Havocs with chainguns ... you will usually be clearing infantry with this, and str 5 is good enough really. But Havocs with autocannons benefit from VOTLW... so, it depends.

Oblits is the one thing that really needs VOTLW, because if you have Oblits, you will jolly well stack every offensive strategem you can on them. And they are usually targeting the biggest baddest stuff in the opponent army. Not to mention VOTLW on a 345 point unit is a lot more bang for buck.

Any 400 point massive unit like 20 possessed, 20 zerkers, 20 noise marines with sonic blastors, deserves VOTLW.

So, you can usually fit all your biggest baddest 300+ to 400+ point unit into just one detachment, be it a 20 man possessed, or a 10 man termi squad. And just make sure that detachment is a legion detachment. The rest can be red Corsairs for the CP.

 McGibs wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
Especially if (maybe after a FAQ) they're both locked into Khorne. Gooooodbye warptime!

I played old renegades almost predominantly before VA, and having advance and charge is just SO useful. Chaos has a pretty powerful punch, and there's not much that will outfight you (especially in a shooty meta), and anything that can will want to come to you so you can plan around it. To tackle any other threat, you -need- to be fast. Anything else is worthless if you arent fast.
Things like berzerkers or helbrutes are just slow as tar without it, but it's definitely something you need to build a list around to get the most milage.

IMO, brazen beast zerkers fall into the same trap as world-eater zerkers. Zerkers are plenty killy enough, they dont need MORE damage. Once they hit a target, they'll either blenderzie it completely, or cripple it to the point of being ineffective anyway. Either way, they're a glass cannon, and the more important part is getting them to their targets in the first place.

The advantage to the Brazen Beasts over World Eaters though is they don't need to charge. It'll activate the first combat no matter what, which is why I believe in some merit there. It won't cutting edge though that's for sure.

That's also why I'm leaning towards an Outrider Raptorial Host as Brazen Beasts. Raptors will enjoy actually making a charge on a 7" rerollable, and Warp Talons will enjoy the extra AP on bigger targets.

If your berserkers are getting charged, they're already dead.
If the enemy is actually ballsy enough to charge a unit of berserkers, it's probably with a unit that with annihilate them before they can fight.

That's probably true as well. That's still an advantage to anyone not dead though.

I'm definitely trying a Raptorial Host though. Can't change my mind on that!

ravenerioli wrote:
With the masque you can get the prince triggering on 4s, my question is is there anything else that can add to the hit rolls in the game that I'm missing? I know with possessed you can give them an icon so they're triggering extra hits on 3s but idk of anything more than that

The problem with the flawless host daemon prince is that it takes up not only a warlord trait, but it has to be flawless host too. So, you have to have a detachment of flawless host and make that DP in it your warlord. Its really powerful, but are you sure you want your warlord to be in the thick of battle? It would have been great if we could take this warlord trait on a secondary hero, but we can't...

And I have problems fitting in flawless host as a detachment too. Want to run too many other stuff. lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sigh, I am too greedy, I want to try and run everything. Daemon engine theme, Oblits, the new havocs, the new chain guns, raptoral host, red corsairs for CP...lol

I am having problems fitting everything in.. lol

I am coming round to the idea that the chain guns are better run on normal CSM squads where you have more bodies and hence more abalative wounds. Havocs can move and shoot now and are T5. A squad of havocs with say 4 autocannons is just 110 points. That's amazing for a T5 unit that can move and shoot 8 shots 48 inches.

I would totally run those plus CSM squads with chain guns. Then my opponent is stumped by a sea of power armor and yet, no very good targets, because everything is relatively cheap, and he has to wield through a ton of normal CSM before he gets to my chain guns.

Eldenfirefly wrote:


I am having problems fitting everything in.. lol

I am coming round to the idea that the chain guns are better run on normal CSM squads where you have more bodies and hence more abalative wounds. Havocs can move and shoot now and are T5. A squad of havocs with say 4 autocannons is just 110 points. That's amazing for a T5 unit that can move and shoot 8 shots 48 inches.

I would totally run those plus CSM squads with chain guns. Then my opponent is stumped by a sea of power armor and yet, no very good targets, because everything is relatively cheap, and he has to wield through a ton of normal CSM before he gets to my chain guns.

That's the conclusion I came to as well after doing the math. This setup seems like it will be nice and efficient, but of course needs to be paired with a good hammer unit to take advantage of strats and kill big stuff like super heavies. From the shooting angle that would be Oblits or plasma terminators. Or from melee, daemon princes and engines. Or perhaps Abaddon.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
but are you sure you want your warlord to be in the thick of battle?

What are you, some loyalist softy? Some meek, fragile space-elf hiding behind his brethren?

We're chaos marines damn it! If your warlord isn't in the thick of battle, turning enemies into shish kebab on his sword and/or talons, you're doing something wrong.

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm suprised there's not more noise being made about the council of traitors stratigium. it is soimewhat build specific, but the ability to get 3 warlords traits just seems o have some pretty good options.

They can have up to four, if I've read everything correctly. In addition to the BL Stratagem, pg 160 has the Field Commander Stratagem that gives one character (not your WL or a named character) in a specialist detachment the WL trait for that specific detachment as well. So you can have three characters plus your actual warlord all with traits.