Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 small_gods wrote:
Thinking which way to take this new vigulus stuff and realised that since Flawless Host don't have to take mark of slanesh. You could take a Khorne host raptorial detachment and use the crimson crown. Say Jump pack lord with flawless cloak and +2 to charge trait, slanesh damemon prince with elixir to cast prescience and however you fancy taking a khorne character with crimson crown.

10 warp talons will drop in, charge on 7+, no 9ver watch, do 3 hits on a 5+ (4 to imperial). That's and adverage of 37 hits. Rerolling wounds, -2ap. For 3CP do it all over again.

Your lord and possibly khorne character following in could make a decent mele bomb that's more resilient that the bloodletters bomb and wounds pretty much anything under t8 reliably.

Its a cool strategy. If I did this though, I would seriously consider taking a Khorne patrol to get a blood master anyway. The blood master with loci of Khorne gives reroll to charge to all khorne daemons and +1 str to all Khorne daemons. So, since we have Khorne DP and Khorne warp talons, these will both get a reroll to charge and a +1 Str. BTW, your DP (whether Khorne or slanaash) will still have to roll a 9 inch to charge... because they are not jump pack, so they cannot be part of host raptorial detachment. And also, I believe crimson crown is a daemon relic. So, yeah. we are getting that blood master after all. lol

My only concern is Flawless Host being locked to Slaanesh with an errata.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 small_gods wrote:
Thinking which way to take this new vigulus stuff and realised that since Flawless Host don't have to take mark of slanesh. You could take a Khorne host raptorial detachment and use the crimson crown. Say Jump pack lord with flawless cloak and +2 to charge trait, slanesh damemon prince with elixir to cast prescience and however you fancy taking a khorne character with crimson crown.

10 warp talons will drop in, charge on 7+, no 9ver watch, do 3 hits on a 5+ (4 to imperial). That's and adverage of 37 hits. Rerolling wounds, -2ap. For 3CP do it all over again.

Your lord and possibly khorne character following in could make a decent mele bomb that's more resilient that the bloodletters bomb and wounds pretty much anything under t8 reliably.

Its a cool strategy. If I did this though, I would seriously consider taking a Khorne patrol to get a blood master anyway. The blood master with loci of Khorne gives reroll to charge to all khorne daemons and +1 str to all Khorne daemons. So, since we have Khorne DP and Khorne warp talons, these will both get a reroll to charge and a +1 Str. BTW, your DP (whether Khorne or slanaash) will still have to roll a 9 inch to charge... because they are not jump pack, so they cannot be part of host raptorial detachment. And also, I believe crimson crown is a daemon relic. So, yeah. we are getting that blood master after all. lol

Also dependant on gw NOT looking the monogod renegades.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 small_gods wrote:
Thinking which way to take this new vigulus stuff and realised that since Flawless Host don't have to take mark of slanesh. You could take a Khorne host raptorial detachment and use the crimson crown. Say Jump pack lord with flawless cloak and +2 to charge trait, slanesh damemon prince with elixir to cast prescience and however you fancy taking a khorne character with crimson crown.

10 warp talons will drop in, charge on 7+, no 9ver watch, do 3 hits on a 5+ (4 to imperial). That's and adverage of 37 hits. Rerolling wounds, -2ap. For 3CP do it all over again.

Your lord and possibly khorne character following in could make a decent mele bomb that's more resilient that the bloodletters bomb and wounds pretty much anything under t8 reliably.

Its a cool strategy. If I did this though, I would seriously consider taking a Khorne patrol to get a blood master anyway. The blood master with loci of Khorne gives reroll to charge to all khorne daemons and +1 str to all Khorne daemons. So, since we have Khorne DP and Khorne warp talons, these will both get a reroll to charge and a +1 Str. BTW, your DP (whether Khorne or slanaash) will still have to roll a 9 inch to charge... because they are not jump pack, so they cannot be part of host raptorial detachment. And also, I believe crimson crown is a daemon relic. So, yeah. we are getting that blood master after all. lol

Hadn't even thought aboit the herald, that would adverage 17 wounds on a knight. And wipe pretty much anything else out.

I already have most of the models anyway so not too worries about GW errata, although it would be a risky purchase for sure.

I don't know if GW will errata something like this. Is it that OP a strategy? I could go black legion Khorne warp talons and use the mercilous fighter strategem to give the entire unit +1 attack (unit of 10 warp talons, good chance I will outnumber the stuff I charge). Or WE warp talons for the same effect rather than worrying about having to roll a 5+ for DTTFE. And they get DTTFE as well. just less additional attacks. the way I see it, a gauranteed +1 attack is probably more reliable anyway. Oh, by the way, CSM DP cannot deep strike in. Only chaos DP can use that strategem to deep strike in. So, if you want the DP to accompany the warp talons, you really do need to ally in daemons and use a daemon DP and that daemon strategem.

Forgot dttfe that's 21 unsaved woinds on a knight!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was just figuring that the DP would fly up the board but could use any psker really. Ahriman and friends etc

I got 10 warptalons I have hardly ever used. So, yes, I would love to try this too. This chaos release has been great! So many new strategies, and every unit looks to be interesting and can be viable.

Is there any way to "buy" additional Warlord Traits across legions? I really want to be able to give some casting buffs to a Sorcerer for Warp Time in my Flawless Host, while also having Confidence for the Prince.

So, the big Thunderhammer blob has, with Kharne, Exalted Champ, VotLW, and Presience...

22 Thunderhammer Attacks
176/9 hits, of which 88/27 give extra attacks from DttFE, for 704/243 extra hits. Total of 5,456/243 hits.
43,648/2,187 wounds
218,240/13,122 unsaved, reduces to 109,120/13,122
327,360/13,122 damage, reduces to 54,560/2,187
Or...
24.95 damage

So, with EVERY SINGLE BUFF in play... They'll barely kill a Questoris, and won't kill a Dominous. If the Questoris is Taranis, they won't even kill them.

I done goofed on the math at the point of striking it out. See my next post for proper math.

can have some fun with the storm eagle transport and fire raptor nugled up flying with a sor an DA -3 to hit also

Not Online!!! wrote:

So these combi-bolters can kill hordes, but we're still looking at a 28pt model averaging 1-1.5 kills per volley vs 4-6pt models.That's solidly in "you will never make your points back" territory. They are about half as efficient at killing Guardsmen as the Chain Cannon havoc, and about the same as autocannon havocs. In melee they are not a ton better.

29 no,? Considering you always need to buy a melee weapon aswell.

Oops, you are right. That's what I get for doing this at 3am. Fixed it.

And I was also wrong about the effectiveness of firing both combiplas profiles as compared to the combi-bolter. Here's the numbers on that:



So the combi-bolter IS just flat at better vs hordes at 24". But it's still not likely to make its points back killing those.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

So these combi-bolters can kill hordes, but we're still looking at a 28pt model averaging 1-1.5 kills per volley vs 4-6pt models.That's solidly in "you will never make your points back" territory. They are about half as efficient at killing Guardsmen as the Chain Cannon havoc, and about the same as autocannon havocs. In melee they are not a ton better.

29 no,? Considering you always need to buy a melee weapon aswell.

Oops, you are right. That's what I get for doing this at 3am. Fixed it.

And I was also wrong about the effectiveness of firing both combiplas profiles as compared to the combi-bolter. Here's the numbers on that:



So the combi-bolter IS just flat at better vs hordes at 24". But it's still not likely to make its points back killing those.

Frankly nothing unexpected, still we got the closest to playable Terminators now i guess?
Also could you run for me through the numbers for a reaper autocannon for terminators? Are they worth it?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I got 10 warptalons I have hardly ever used. So, yes, I would love to try this too. This chaos release has been great! So many new strategies, and every unit looks to be interesting and can be viable.

Raptoralhost and either red corsairs or brass beasts (however they are named, btw in the whole book there is no picture of them )

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, the big Thunderhammer blob has, with Kharne, Exalted Champ, VotLW, and Presience...

22 Thunderhammer Attacks
176/9 hits, of which 88/27 give extra attacks from DttFE, for 704/243 extra hits. Total of 5,456/243 hits.
43,648/2,187 wounds
218,240/13,122 unsaved, reduces to 109,120/13,122
327,360/13,122 damage, reduces to 54,560/2,187
Or...
24.95 damage

So, with EVERY SINGLE BUFF in play... They'll barely kill a Questoris, and won't kill a Dominous. If the Questoris is Taranis, they won't even kill them.

Ok, firstly, 2 attacks assumes only 7 thunderhammer chosen. (I kept one with nothing to make it a cheaper abalative wound). If you are bringing Kharn and exalted champ, then you can have 8 chosen with hammers. Since we are talking Kharn here, means WE. So, if we want to, we can have 8 hammers which would give us (7X3+4) = 25 thunder hammer attacks. I am pretty sure 3 more hammer attacks should push us into Dominus territory.

Also, erm, I would like to double check your calculation. You said 43648/2187 wounds. That means 19.95 wounds. I will round it down and say 19 wounds. The knights only get a 6+ save in close combat because hammers are AP-3 and they get no invul save in melee. so, so, with a 6+ save , say they save 3 wounds out of those 19. I will be generous and let them save 4 wounds. That leaves (19-4) = 15 wounds on a knight. Each hammer deals 3 damage flat. So, your 15 wounds will translate to 15x3 = 45 damage. That is more than enough to smash a knight . Even a knight with 6+ FNP will die ... so, I am don't see how you get 25 wounds at the end...

Ah, I see my mistake. I forgot to halve the denominator in the reduction of the unsaved step.

So, it'd actually be exactly double what I said, for...

109,120/6,561 unsaved, or 16.63 unsaved
49.89 damage

Thank you for pointing out my mistake! Let me edit the post.

I did, however, assume 7 Thunderhammers since that's what the poster recommended. 7 Hammers, and one Chainsword dude.

Hey, 50 damage looks like overkill. lol We can reduce the number of thunder hammers to lower the cost if we want to. lol. Maybe swop them for other stuff.

I just did a test for Abby. I don't think Abby will reliably kill a knight in one turn. But he would probably heavily hurt it. I haven't run the numbers, but its possible that WE can do this without needing prescience. Just have Kharn and exalted champ and VOTLW, which they tend to run with anyway. ok, heck lets do this:

22 hammer attacks = 11 hits + 5.86 hits (due to Kharn reroll) = 16.86 hits.
16.86 hits becomes 11.24 wounds + 3.74 (due to exalted champ reroll) = 14.99 wounds. (lets just take it as 15).
15 wounds, lets be generous and let the knight save 3, so left 12, which will each do 3 damage. So, yup, 36 damage goes through and smashes the knights to bits.

Cool, World Eaters can do this with just Kharn, and exalted lending their aura, and VOTLW. Don't even need prescience from a sorceror.

(I also just realised chosen come with bolters standard, so on their way to smashing a knight to bits, they can unleash a whole bunch of bolter shots before that too. Just don't bother shooting the knight, let the hammers deal with it!)

By the way, the new Abby has a huge base. Its like 65 mm in diameter or around 2.5 inches. This means that if you were to disembark him from a LR, you disembark up to 3 inch, his base diameter then stretches him out another 2.5 inches, and then he moves 6 inches. That means that he has a reach of 11.5 inches away from his LR before he even rolls his 2d6 charge... (average 7 inch). So, he has an average reach out from his LR of 18.5 inches. That's pretty far...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Is there any way to "buy" additional Warlord Traits across legions? I really want to be able to give some casting buffs to a Sorcerer for Warp Time in my Flawless Host, while also having Confidence for the Prince.

You can use field commander strategem to make a hero in your specialist detachment have that specialist warlord trait. But its specific to that specialist detachment. So, for example, host raptorial affects all jump pack dudes in a detachment. So, you can then use field commander to make a jump pack sorceror in that detachment have warlord trait, but it has to be the host raptorial warlord trait (the one that gives you +2 charge).

Only black legion can give additional warlord traits to one DA and one sorceror using the strategem "council of traitors". But if I am not wrong, the DA and Sorceror should be within black legion.
.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Frankly nothing unexpected, still we got the closest to playable Terminators now i guess?
Also could you run for me through the numbers for a reaper autocannon for terminators? Are they worth it?

Here you go!



The big problem with the Reaper of course is that it takes a penalty to move and shoot, so I've included two versions of it. It looks like it actually holds up pretty well.

When moving, it's at about the same efficiency as a combi-bolter vs infantry, and more vs higher toughness models. Stationary it overtakes it by a decent amount. And it beats the single shot overcharge plasma vs hordes of course, even in double tap range. It'd benefit a lot from full rerolls to hit. And the extra range is nice.

I'm not sure if its really worth using overall though. Its more expensive than the combi-bolter, and you don't gain much extra per point for that due to the movement penalty. If Terminators returned to being able to ignore that, it'd be a solid take in squads except for close range combi-plasma. And even a single plasma shot is beating it vs tougher models and especially multi-wound models.

I guess if I was doing a mixed squad I might do like 2 combi-bolters, 1 reaper, and 2 combi-plasma. But I'm not convinced that we're not just better off doing all plasma to benefit more from shoot twice strat. I guess it depends on if you're also running Oblits which are gonna use that up.

Was more a Personal question, because i might consider a footslogging Termi squad with as cheap as possible equipment but with a reaper.


Alpha legion and DA support.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Frankly nothing unexpected, still we got the closest to playable Terminators now i guess?
Also could you run for me through the numbers for a reaper autocannon for terminators? Are they worth it?

Here you go!



The big problem with the Reaper of course is that it takes a penalty to move and shoot, so I've included two versions of it. It looks like it actually holds up pretty well.

When moving, it's at about the same efficiency as a combi-bolter vs infantry, and more vs higher toughness models. Stationary it overtakes it by a decent amount. And it beats the single shot overcharge plasma vs hordes of course, even in double tap range. It'd benefit a lot from full rerolls to hit. And the extra range is nice.

I'm not sure if its really worth using overall though. Its more expensive than the combi-bolter, and you don't gain much extra per point for that due to the movement penalty. If Terminators returned to being able to ignore that, it'd be a solid take in squads except for close range combi-plasma. And even a single plasma shot is beating it vs tougher models and especially multi-wound models.

I guess if I was doing a mixed squad I might do like 2 combi-bolters, 1 reaper, and 2 combi-plasma. But I'm not convinced that we're not just better off doing all plasma to benefit more from shoot twice strat. I guess it depends on if you're also running Oblits which are gonna use that up.

Honestly all Plasma and a Reaper wouldn't be too bad.

Couldn't there technically be made a point for 10 Al nurgle terminators with Reapers, combiplas and Chainaxes, supported by a sorcerer, DA?

I mean that would probably be as skew as it gets and melee would be an issue but hilariously durable.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Spoiler:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Frankly nothing unexpected, still we got the closest to playable Terminators now i guess?
Also could you run for me through the numbers for a reaper autocannon for terminators? Are they worth it?

Here you go!



The big problem with the Reaper of course is that it takes a penalty to move and shoot, so I've included two versions of it. It looks like it actually holds up pretty well.

When moving, it's at about the same efficiency as a combi-bolter vs infantry, and more vs higher toughness models. Stationary it overtakes it by a decent amount. And it beats the single shot overcharge plasma vs hordes of course, even in double tap range. It'd benefit a lot from full rerolls to hit. And the extra range is nice.

I'm not sure if its really worth using overall though. Its more expensive than the combi-bolter, and you don't gain much extra per point for that due to the movement penalty. If Terminators returned to being able to ignore that, it'd be a solid take in squads except for close range combi-plasma. And even a single plasma shot is beating it vs tougher models and especially multi-wound models.

I guess if I was doing a mixed squad I might do like 2 combi-bolters, 1 reaper, and 2 combi-plasma. But I'm not convinced that we're not just better off doing all plasma to benefit more from shoot twice strat. I guess it depends on if you're also running Oblits which are gonna use that up.

would it be feasible to have chart comparing melee options with and without the bringers of despair bonus?
In some way it doubles their damage after all. Not quite but the extra morale damage would go through all saves. It sounds ok on paper but I'm curious about the numbers.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Is there any way to "buy" additional Warlord Traits across legions? I really want to be able to give some casting buffs to a Sorcerer for Warp Time in my Flawless Host, while also having Confidence for the Prince.

Kind of, and not in a way that will help you. You can pay 1CP to give a Specialist Detachment their Warlord Trait, which doesn’t allow the combination you want.

 lindsay40k wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Is there any way to "buy" additional Warlord Traits across legions? I really want to be able to give some casting buffs to a Sorcerer for Warp Time in my Flawless Host, while also having Confidence for the Prince.

Kind of, and not in a way that will help you. You can pay 1CP to give a Specialist Detachment their Warlord Trait, which doesn’t allow the combination you want.

council of traitors would do this, but that's not applicable to the flawless host as I understand.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Couldn't there technically be made a point for 10 Al nurgle terminators with Reapers, combiplas and Chainaxes, supported by a sorcerer, DA?

I mean that would probably be as skew as it gets and melee would be an issue but hilariously durable.

Blightlords would also be durable, at all ranges with no moving parts, probably costing less than the above without relying on proximity to unteleportable DA, and would get to double tap with the plasma at 18” and also chop up most things that try to melee them

It’s not for nothing they were one of the few (only?) Terminator units that were pretty competitive before the price cuts and bolster buffs

 lindsay40k wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Couldn't there technically be made a point for 10 Al nurgle terminators with Reapers, combiplas and Chainaxes, supported by a sorcerer, DA?

I mean that would probably be as skew as it gets and melee would be an issue but hilariously durable.

Blightlords would also be durable, at all ranges with no moving parts, probably costing less than the above without relying on proximity to unteleportable DA, and would get to double tap with the plasma at 18” and also chop up most things that try to melee them


It’s not for nothing they were one of the few (only?) Terminator units that were pretty competitive before the price cuts and bolster buffs

Ah true but -3 to hit still is fairly memeable.
Then again you could just let the sorcerer out, sacrificing 1 -1 but in turn mark the squad Slaanesh for double shooting.

I think the trick with all this new stuff is going to be finding the perfect balance between taking what we need to win, taking what we want to play with, and figuring out what units can cover both areas well.

Myself its going to be large squads of black legion marines, a red corsair detachment, and what mix of deamon engines / deamon support hq's we can fit into 2000 pts which seems like its going to be pretty hard to pull off. As much as i love the new endless waves of chaos marines with red corsairs i dont see that becoming a real thing in my lists simply because i like my large 20 man black legion blob with abby, do not underestimate 20 bolters in rapid fire rerolling all hits, with vets of the long war and double shooting. Is it the premier option for all those cp? Hell no. But it can catch your opponent off guard when these guys suddenly fire 80 shots and wipe the chaff from the field in front of them

I think of all the changes the most solid is a dark apostle. Seems an auto include in most lists now.

 Latro_ wrote:
I think of all the changes the most solid is a dark apostle. Seems an auto include in most lists now.

Honestly i expect him to take another hike in pts due to some of the prayers.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
I think of all the changes the most solid is a dark apostle. Seems an auto include in most lists now.

Honestly i expect him to take another hike in pts due to some of the prayers.

The prayers rely on a roll and usually only have one target. If anything if he were at the original price point I'd be happier.

Yeah I'm not actually feeling him for most lists. 100 points for -1 to hit isn't that amazing. Like, it's good in the right lists, but very much requires the right lists. Without some ability to change out his prayers, I think he's situation.

I like the idea of the dark apostle putting out a 5++ to protect predators and rhinos t1. Also regular marines (or anything without an invunerable honestly like just cultists) can be very good with a 5++ from him then a sorcerer popping weaver to boost it to a 4++ save squad wide. Bikers that don't need to move fast and can work as a mobile, tough, gun line? Yeah, thats cool.