Red Corsair wrote: I wouldn't say chosen are better then bikes personally.
71pts gets you 3 bikes with a double combi champ, thats 6 T5 wounds moving 14" and firing 16 shots full effect out to 24".
80pts for 5 chosen with combis only gets you 4 more shots if your standing still or within 12" otherwise they drop off to 6 less shots. The 3 bikes also have one more wound, and with each wound they take they lose less firepower.
The bikes can also take specials and retain their combi bolter.
Also true, forgot for a second the pricedrop they recived.
Red Corsair wrote: There is a reason why you don't want to only focus on the points per damage of a unit. Mobility and durability are at least as important and often more important. Terminators are actually solid. Depends more on the list and your play style.
Can you elobrate on the terminators being solid and supporting list / playstyle?
I'm not a hugely experienced player but I tend to try to have a balanced list (shooting / cc) and try to move up fast to put pressure on with CC. Not really a fan of gunlines, although never leave home without some kind of backfield objective camper.
Red Corsair wrote: There is a reason why you don't want to only focus on the points per damage of a unit. Mobility and durability are at least as important and often more important. Terminators are actually solid. Depends more on the list and your play style.
Can you elobrate on the terminators being solid and supporting list / playstyle?
I'm not a hugely experienced player but I tend to try to have a balanced list (shooting / cc) and try to move up fast to put pressure on with CC. Not really a fan of gunlines, although never leave home without some kind of backfield objective camper.
Basically he states that the inante capability of terminators to deepstrike is valuable in certain lists beyond Dmg output per pts.
It's difficult to meassure the effect on the gameplay due to the enemy needing to either play around the terminators or ignoring them (granted CSm termis with combiplas and mark of slaanesh are dangerous enough to need to be played around)
Topic came up on a Facebook group... but how do you Warlords see using the Fallen? With the expanded rules for them that give you a way to build out a detachment, some people are talking about building armies around them. They have a lot of overlap with chosen, so it seems to me as similar to building a Black Legion chosen heavy army... just requiring separate detachments to get all the other basic CSM units you'd want.
aka_mythos wrote: Topic came up on a Facebook group... but how do you Warlords see using the Fallen? With the expanded rules for them that give you a way to build out a detachment, some people are talking about building armies around them. They have a lot of overlap with chosen, so it seems to me as similar to building a Black Legion chosen heavy army... just requiring separate detachments to get all the other basic CSM units you'd want.
I am not sure they are so much better its worth making a separate detachment of them just to have them. If you like them from a narrative point of view, then yeah, by all means. They can even take Rhinos now. But they aren't that different from chosen really. Except with some slight additional rules. Their morale thingy, if you run small squads of chosen it will rarely ever come up anyway. The reroll to hit on 1 is something cypher also gives them anyway, and well, in a normal CSM detachment, you can also take a chaos lord to do the same thing. Its really not a massive advantage over chosen. Chosen get legion traits, strategems, psychic, buffs, etc etc. Overall, I wouldn't bring them over chosen unless I really loved Fallen and wanted an army of fallen in the first place.
You could walk up an army of black legion chosen with Abby in the middle and you would have chosen that reroll all hits, and are immune to morale. And that would beat a cypher army with chosen by a mile.
Red Corsair wrote: There is a reason why you don't want to only focus on the points per damage of a unit. Mobility and durability are at least as important and often more important. Terminators are actually solid. Depends more on the list and your play style.
Can you elobrate on the terminators being solid and supporting list / playstyle?
I'm not a hugely experienced player but I tend to try to have a balanced list (shooting / cc) and try to move up fast to put pressure on with CC. Not really a fan of gunlines, although never leave home without some kind of backfield objective camper.
Basically he states that the inante capability of terminators to deepstrike is valuable in certain lists beyond Dmg output per pts.
It's difficult to meassure the effect on the gameplay due to the enemy needing to either play around the terminators or ignoring them (granted CSm termis with combiplas and mark of slaanesh are dangerous enough to need to be played around)
This. Online speaks the truth!
If you are playing not so experienced players who don't know the value of screening. Your terminators will be super good. Especially since now they are cheaper. If you are playing experienced players who know how deadly a plasma terminator deep strike is, They will try their very best to screen. Of course, its also the rest of your list. Because nowadays, we have the chain cannon, which is awesome at clearing screens. If you are good, you might be able to clear away all of this screens turn 1, so that he can't really do much to screen against you on turn 2 when you deep strike in.
If you are marching them up the board, it becomes a bit more iffy. Even terminator armour can be shoot off the board. And they are slow in movement. They may struggle to get into range to do something important.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rogerio134134 wrote: Any decent builds for abaddon black legion?? Thinking of Abaddon and 10 terminators with some oblits, havocs etc.
Either make Abaddon the centerpiece of your shooty units and march him up the board, or deep strike him in with a bunch of terminators and/or oblits. The problem isn't that he and his company won't wreck face when they come in. They will for sure. The problem is he is 240 points, and 10 termis and oblit are going to cost another truckload of points. So, the question is, are you going to be able to handle facing your opponent with only half your army on turn 1. (And clear enough screens so that Abby and company can come down properly and have good targets). If you can, then go for it! I think it all lies in how you build your list, and how you handle it versus your opponent. If you play such a list well, Abby and his friends will be devastating. Abby and Plasma terminators are already devastating. Abby plus Plasma termis plus oblits are probably going to clear away a huge part of his board if they can all deep strike into where they want to.
It seems odd but I'm tempted to try footslogging Abby up the board surrounded by a couple of units of bikes. 142pts for T5 and 2 wounds each that's a 12 wound bodyguard unit that is putting out 32 rerolled bolter shots per turn. You can advance Abby while the bikes can keep up easily without having to pick up that -1 to hit.
I don't see chosen or terminators fulfilling that role better.
aka_mythos wrote: Topic came up on a Facebook group... but how do you Warlords see using the Fallen? With the expanded rules for them that give you a way to build out a detachment, some people are talking about building armies around them. They have a lot of overlap with chosen, so it seems to me as similar to building a Black Legion chosen heavy army... just requiring separate detachments to get all the other basic CSM units you'd want.
I’ve been trying to figure something out, myself.
None of my regular opponents have CP generators, so Cypher’s extra ability is wasted on me.
Fallen Sorcerers can only cast buffs on themselves or their Rhino. It makes sense that they don’t have access to Interromancy, but this seriously limits them. Their relic’s synergy with their melee Stratagem is unlikely to be worth a CP.
How Fallen squads differ from Chosen:
- much more restrictive loadouts
- built-in rerolls on shooting when stationary, but with no more than one >24” gun
- morale resistance second only to Tyranids, but unable to take as a horde
- access to -1 to be hit Stratagem, but can’t compound with sorcerer or DA buffs
- units with more attacks can get the melee re-rolls from an EC without needing a specific matchup, against which they face a much better strat (DttHA exploding on 4+)
Fallen gunners riding up in Rhinos don’t benefit from their defacto Legion trait until T3.
A fireteam with a chaingun can move up T1. As long as two survive the enemy firestorm, you will definitely still have a chaingun using rerolls on T2. That’s not terrible. But if three of them were Heretacs, they’d contribute four more CP, bring HQs that synergies with LEGION units, and be cheaper. HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, whilst Huron-Come-Lately has so many chaingunning Heretacs he can go full Chenkov with them, not a single one of the Fallen grabbed a rotor cannon before bouncing
A Fallen melee unit is... well, it’s a counter to a tough, low damage output unit that relies on heavy Morale debuffs to sweep (of which there are very few). And as long as it has not got an escort unit that can sweep Marines (of which there are an entire galaxy).
I guess the way to use them is lots of combi-bolters and chainguns, Cypher giving them rerolls as they walk up into midfield positions, then Cypher trolling your opponent’s CP generator as he moves up with a plasma squad. If said CP generator is a backfield supporter, you’ll need half an army of Fallen to actually annoy them. If it’s a rushdown character, you’ll either scarecrow it or deny your opponent a CP or two.
I wish they’d let Fallen take the Plasma Cannon they published art of them wielding, and supplied with my DVDA squad. That would give them a legit unique niche.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh oh oh! Fallen currently give you access to a Vindicare, via semantic reading of a White Dwarf article. (Wouldn’t buy the models to do this, future FAQs will have it in their sights.)
A fireteam with a chaingun can move up T1. As long as two survive the enemy firestorm, you will definitely still have a chaingun using rerolls on T2. That’s not terrible. But if three of them were Heretacs, they’d contribute four more CP, bring HQs that synergies with LEGION units, and be cheaper.
Is there any way for a Hellforged Comteptor Dread to be viable with the New Codex. Lacking the demon word they are unable to get a lot of the buffs. They do not have the Deamon, or Deamon Engine key word so the Lord Discordant cannot buff them either. I have a contemptor unassembled and was wondering if it were worth building and converting?
Red Corsairs can let the melee ones run and charge. That's still really good.
Otherwise shooting ones are still aight for Alpha Legion or Iron Warriors.
Klone12 wrote: So in 8th you can move after disembarking.
Can't you move out of a kharibdys ?
I think the kharibdyss being in 9" and you being able to disembark 6" from the enemy and charge with rerolls is enough, but you never know.
Even if you can't, you don't have to start the kharybdis in reserve.
it has a 15 inch move so you could warptime and then charge to your hearts content.
Next turn you disembark with relative freedom of what to assault.... or not, it can be quite the nuisance and ghetto sniper assuming I didn't miss any nerf to its pistols and if they kill it, whatever it was carrying can then do its thing.
It's not exacly easy to surround and you don't need to stay 9 inch away when disembarking normally as opposed to the drop pod assault disembark.
And without warptime you could still advance I guess, putting you at about 18 inch and disembarking next turn for another 8 and a half, harder to assault from but could be possible with good rolls.
Contemptor/deredeo/leviathan are all good standalone units. Give them reroll ones from a cheap chaos lord and butcher cannons, and place them in your backfield. Alpha legion for durability is the most competetive setup imho.
stormcraft wrote: Contemptor/deredeo/leviathan are all good standalone units. Give them reroll ones from a cheap chaos lord and butcher cannons, and place them in your backfield. Alpha legion for durability is the most competetive setup imho.
or IW for that ignoring of cover.
maybee BL tough if you want to babysitt with abbydab.
stormcraft wrote: Contemptor/deredeo/leviathan are all good standalone units. Give them reroll ones from a cheap chaos lord and butcher cannons, and place them in your backfield. Alpha legion for durability is the most competetive setup imho.
or IW for that ignoring of cover.
maybee BL tough if you want to babysitt with abbydab.
I dont feel like you get a lot of mileage from Abigail in that situation because everyone has Bs2+ naturally. By the time they go to BS4+ an opponent would likely commit to killing.
stormcraft wrote: Contemptor/deredeo/leviathan are all good standalone units. Give them reroll ones from a cheap chaos lord and butcher cannons, and place them in your backfield. Alpha legion for durability is the most competetive setup imho.
or IW for that ignoring of cover.
maybee BL tough if you want to babysitt with abbydab.
I dont feel like you get a lot of mileage from Abigail in that situation because everyone has Bs2+ naturally. By the time they go to BS4+ an opponent would likely commit to killing.
Granted Abby is probably the ultimate deepstrike deterrent.
lindsay40k wrote: Fallen Sorcerers can only cast buffs on themselves or their Rhino. It makes sense that they don’t have access to Interromancy, but this seriously limits them. Their relic’s synergy with their melee Stratagem is unlikely to be worth a CP.
Actually, they can't even do that since the specialist detachment removes the Heretic Astartes keyword from the Sorcerers.
Gah. If anyone wants me, I’ll be flipping a table again.
...Speaking of synergy-destroying keyword absences, I’m half way through building a Greater Possessed specifically to Possess a SM character into and now notice that they don’t spawn with a LEGION.
Well, so much for playing as a force of assimilationist corrupters.
To be fair, the Lord Discordant is a beat stick to end all beat sticks, havocs are GOOD, and they very specficailyl called out Red Corsairs, and fair play they are the best way to play CSM at the moment, especially for CP.
The Noctolith crown however? Lord no. And narry a mention of any demon princes either, even though they are the end all be all best unit in ANY chaos codex IMO.
Black legion chaos lord (with JP/on bike) with ghorisvex's teeth and WLT flames of spite. Mark of khorne. Play Votlw on him, and the soultearer portent prayer from a dark apostle for +2 to wound rolls. Thats 6 attacks hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s. Every wound roll of 4+ is 2 MW in addition to normal damage. Pick a second chainsword for one more attack. Cast diabolic strength on him for one more attack, and S+2. Pick a second chainsword for one more attack. Spend 3CP and fight again. Any more ideas how to improve him ?
So I wanted the reaper autocannon termi’s to be playable, but no one ever brings it up, even though plasma termi’s with Mark of slaanesh and deepstrike for 20 plasma shots has come up before. Is the reaper just too limited in targets worth shooting due to the mid-high strength, low damage?
Hold on, does the Black legion stratagem "Tip of the Spear" persist across multiple units? It effects "the unit that is closest to the enemy", but if they incompletely destroy their target, the closest unit changes and may not have shot yet.
macluvin wrote: So I wanted the reaper autocannon termi’s to be playable, but no one ever brings it up, even though plasma termi’s with Mark of slaanesh and deepstrike for 20 plasma shots has come up before. Is the reaper just too limited in targets worth shooting due to the mid-high strength, low damage?
macluvin wrote: Awesome. I’m assuming chainaxe and combiplas is the way to go?
Weeellll still terminators so unlike you have developped a fetish for them hold back a bit, but combiplas + reaper or reaper + combibolter and Chainaxes gives you a decent "cheapish" dakka Termi squad i guess.
p5freak wrote: Black legion chaos lord (with JP/on bike) with ghorisvex's teeth and WLT flames of spite. Mark of khorne. Play Votlw on him, and the soultearer portent prayer from a dark apostle for +2 to wound rolls. Thats 6 attacks hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s. Every wound roll of 4+ is 2 MW in addition to normal damage. Pick a second chainsword for one more attack. Cast diabolic strength on him for one more attack, and S+2. Pick a second chainsword for one more attack. Spend 3CP and fight again. Any more ideas how to improve him ?
Skip the second Chainsword and use a Bolt Pistol and use the Daemon Shells Strat instead.
Roknar wrote: Hold on, does the Black legion stratagem persist across multiple units? It effects "the unit that is closest to the enemy", but if they incompletely destroy their target, the closest unit changes and may not have shot yet.
IMO it’s very loosely worded, open to several interpretations, and clarification won’t make the first FAQ
Been out of the CSM game for awhile, came now that all the nice new stuff is out.
I still have like 18 DV Chosen that I never built. Thinking of finally converting them to all have plasma guns. That's 3 units of 6-man Chosen squads all with plasmaguns. What else should I bring to support them? Based on glancing through the codex, I was thinking making them Slaneesh for Endless Cacophony and sticking a sorcerer with prescience near them, maybe also a Dark Apostle near them. But then I'm worried about putting all my eggs in that basket, thats almost half my army in a 2000 game..
Chosen aren't bad at all imo. But that many might be too much of a skew. A lot of armies bring minuses to hit, so 18 plasma guns can be a real hinderance in that common situation. I'd model one squad with combi-bolters & chain axes for sure, a cheap and solid kit choice: shoot chaff, axe meq's.
Their big weakness is no obsec and no 5cp battalion contribution.
Where our chosen can't take storm shields like loyalist vets, spending too much on their wargear can be a trap as they die easily. It's worth taking at least a couple of ablative wounds in the squad. I'm trying to decide whether to give them all chainswords or chainaxes. Can't decide what I'll get the most use out of
I go for combibolters and chainswords on mine. The melee weapon is nothing but a nice fall back if they get charged in my experience or if they wanna clean up a nearly dead unit, and 3 sword attacks each is usually enough. Their best role in my past games was a super cheap source of massed bolter shots without bringing loads of bodies
Guys, HELP!
The only unit that allowed my roster to be competitive got nerfed to all hell. The Obliterator drop is no more! Those guys who removed 'any unit in 1 phase' are gone.
sushi2001 wrote: Guys, HELP!
The only unit that allowed my roster to be competitive got nerfed to all hell. The Obliterator drop is no more! Those guys who removed 'any unit in 1 phase' are gone.
Obliterators are still there, @sushi2001, they just cost a bit more per shot (or rather, they will when an FAQ corrects the hilarious ‘still 65pts’ obvious typo), and in turn gain:
- more efficient defence against 1W and 3W weapons (though less efficient against 2W);
- ability to have an 18 shot unit that benefits even more from Prescience, VOTLW, EC, ect;
- ability to have a single model unit that can teleport into small gaps and shoot a character in the back;
- a Specialist Detachment that makes deploying them at the start viable, especially if they are of Nurgle;
- new support options that can pile on excellent buffs;
- new Renegade Chapters that can supercharge their Overwatch - or, exploit friendly tarpits & troll enemy tarpits.
They can’t be used and built around exactly as they were before, but their new incarnation has a hell of a lot more versatility.
Ok, so no. Darn.. hard to think of a target for second relic as red corsairs, there's only thst maelstorm' bite curiosity for the DV exalted champion model.. Huron doesn't have any mark..
Xirax wrote: Btw, can I give a regular CSM relic like intoxicating elixir to a named renegade character like Huron Blackheart?
Erm so long he has the right mark.?
Well, Relics can’t be given to any named characters at all.
Scanning through rules, though, this does raise an issue. If you’re using the Renegades rules from Codex CSM, then you have access to the non-LEGION Relics with any Renegade unnamed character. BUT:
Vigilus Ablaze p196 wrote:If your army is led by a Chaos Space Marine Warlord, you may give the appropriate Renegade Artefact from page 200 to a RED CORSAIRS, CRIMSON SLAUGHTER, PURGE, SCOURGED, BRAZEN BEASTS or FLAWLESS HOST CHARACTER from your army, instead of those presented in Codex: Chaos Space Marines.
That’s actually kind of sloppy grammar. A rules lawyer could make a case that you can’t take Codex CSM Relics on the above Renegade Chapters.
Probably an idea to inbox FAQs before the initial document goes live.
Oh, I wouldn’t agree with them, but it’s entirely plausible that a TFG could focus on ‘instead of’ and refuse to budge on that. Like I say, worth dropping a line to FAQs and asking for clarification.
p5freak wrote: Black legion chaos lord (with JP/on bike) with ghorisvex's teeth and WLT flames of spite. Mark of khorne. Play Votlw on him, and the soultearer portent prayer from a dark apostle for +2 to wound rolls. Thats 6 attacks hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s. Every wound roll of 4+ is 2 MW in addition to normal damage. Pick a second chainsword for one more attack. Cast diabolic strength on him for one more attack, and S+2. Pick a second chainsword for one more attack. Spend 3CP and fight again. Any more ideas how to improve him ?
Skip the second Chainsword and use a Bolt Pistol and use the Daemon Shells Strat instead.
prescience is still good in case you go up against marines. That's 4+ to generate DttfE as well. won't always come into play but devastating when it does, and still fights various -1 to hit debuffs. This does reauire concil of traitors though.
Also means I'm not convinced by the JP/bike as you'd need to stay close to two other characters and the DA is slow.
In terms of potential buffs there is also the chaos boon for +1 attack. at least in theory.
My concern is with requiring a dark apostle, it still bothers me more than it should that they don't have any mobility options beyond getting in a transport.
He doesn't require anyone though. People are just listing all the synergy but that doesn't mean you need to use them all for it to be good. Just by himself in a raptoral detachment charging from DS he is solid. With VotLW and flames of spit using mark of khorne to swing twice if needed he will punch well above his own weight.
Personally I find his biggest short coming is requiring him as your warlord in order to use flames of spite, because he is almost certainly dead the turn after he arrives.
I am personally glad the DA cannot take a jump pack, not for fluff reasons which would be cool but because of balance. The tool box is big enough, no reason why it should be brainless to put it all together.
Red Corsair wrote: He doesn't require anyone though. People are just listing all the synergy but that doesn't mean you need to use them all for it to be good. Just by himself in a raptoral detachment charging from DS he is solid. With VotLW and flames of spit using mark of khorne to swing twice if needed he will punch well above his own weight.
Personally I find his biggest short coming is requiring him as your warlord in order to use flames of spite, because he is almost certainly dead the turn after he arrives.
I am personally glad the DA cannot take a jump pack, not for fluff reasons which would be cool but because of balance. The tool box is big enough, no reason why it should be brainless to put it all together.
True, but the sword becomes much less powerful without the DA going from a 4+ for two wounds to a 5+. It does feel like a wasted opportunity.
As for the DA mobility, he is basically a a mortal herald of the gods, if anybody should get mounts it's them. And according to GW biker/jumppack/mounted lords/sorc are no longer a thing.
Those are only a thing due to their sisters of battle status of eternal Limbo. Although, that actually also enables the current DA to still take a bolter/combi as they can use the wargear options from the index with the new datasheet.
What do we reckon to Haarken World-Claimer? If he’s in an Outriders full of Warp Talons, his aura buff’s not getting used. If he’s dropping in with plasma Raptors, his aura buff’s not getting used. Raptors are so weak in melee, his aura buff’s actual effect is not very powerful. He can’t take the Raptorial Host WT. BUT if he’s in such a formation with a regular CL who does, he’s a pretty decent thumper. His 18” debuff could play well with Butcher dreads against high Ld armies that don’t think they need to take Morale precautions.
I'm genuinely thinking of doing abbadon with 30 terminators in a bringers of despair detachment backed up by a battalion of normal black legion dudes 2 X 5 CSM and a cultist blob with some oblits. Deepstriking 30 terminators and Abby would be hilarious re rolling all to hit would just anihilate enemy infantry then basically Wade into the enemy with the terminator blob of doom and let Abby take on vehicles.
Rogerio134134 wrote: I'm genuinely thinking of doing abbadon with 30 terminators in a bringers of despair detachment backed up by a battalion of normal black legion dudes 2 X 5 CSM and a cultist blob with some oblits. Deepstriking 30 terminators and Abby would be hilarious re rolling all to hit would just anihilate enemy infantry then basically Wade into the enemy with the terminator blob of doom and let Abby take on vehicles.
That sounds awesome and paints such a beautiful tableau of death and destruction, it brings a tear to my eye.
But which part of the tabletop is going to hold enough space to let you drop 30 Terminators? Most likely they'll all land in your deployment zone. Especially if you're going second, as the enemy will have most likely killed most of what was there already.
So it hasn't been brought up yet, and I'd hesitate to think it was "good" but anyone have any thoughts on putting 3 oblits and a sorc or MoP into a landraider? >.>
I ask because we've pretty much agreed that a tree + dark apostate is probably worth it to protect a unit of on-field oblits. That's already 185 points. I'd probably say the land raider protects them better turn 1, allows them and their most important support piece (the sorc or MoP, I think it's a wash between the two which helps more) to be placed 3 inches better (this can be an issue with their 24 inch range). Adding to that, the landraider's firepower probably is worth the difference in points between the tree + apostate. I'm aware most lists can toast a landraider, but it's still not trivial to do so T1 and they probably can't then also toast the oblits.
Rogerio134134 wrote: I'm genuinely thinking of doing abbadon with 30 terminators in a bringers of despair detachment backed up by a battalion of normal black legion dudes 2 X 5 CSM and a cultist blob with some oblits. Deepstriking 30 terminators and Abby would be hilarious re rolling all to hit would just anihilate enemy infantry then basically Wade into the enemy with the terminator blob of doom and let Abby take on vehicles.
That sounds awesome and paints such a beautiful tableau of death and destruction, it brings a tear to my eye.
But which part of the tabletop is going to hold enough space to let you drop 30 Terminators? Most likely they'll all land in your deployment zone. Especially if you're going second, as the enemy will have most likely killed most of what was there already.
I'm honestly not sure but it just seems awesome, 120 bolter shots re roll to hit
MinscS2 wrote: They're alright as deep-strike special weapon delivery-system.
Just don't expect them to actually kill something in close combat.
Pretty much. Only with Brazen Beasts and that's honestly not even that good.
*
With the BL stratagem they're 3 attacks each so long as you outnumber the target unit. They might be able to shift some msu ObSec unit camping somewhere or some ranged support, but even then, you're still spending a CP to do it.
On the mass terminators thingy : I think that with the points drop now, there is merit in trying it out. But I would consider having a whole army of termi armor.
The main thing dropping down would be Oblits and maybe Abby (depending on the situation). The rest of the army will be full terminators marking up the board. I actually think Alpha legion would better for such an army.
Start the terminators with the 9 inch scout move up. Abby gets warptimed move advance up to keep up. The whole mass then just moves forward and keeps firing. Then turn 2, when most of the chaff have been cleared, multiple Oblits drop in and take out all of the enemy heavy support.
All their small arms fire are basically useless against such an army, and the Alpha legion trait makes plasma weapons a two edged sword against them.
Its kinda cool. Its like a CSM version of the dark angels 1st company. Not sure how competitive it will be. But if you have mass terminators... its definitely worth a go.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
drakerocket wrote: So it hasn't been brought up yet, and I'd hesitate to think it was "good" but anyone have any thoughts on putting 3 oblits and a sorc or MoP into a landraider? >.>
I ask because we've pretty much agreed that a tree + dark apostate is probably worth it to protect a unit of on-field oblits. That's already 185 points. I'd probably say the land raider protects them better turn 1, allows them and their most important support piece (the sorc or MoP, I think it's a wash between the two which helps more) to be placed 3 inches better (this can be an issue with their 24 inch range). Adding to that, the landraider's firepower probably is worth the difference in points between the tree + apostate. I'm aware most lists can toast a landraider, but it's still not trivial to do so T1 and they probably can't then also toast the oblits.
lindsay40k wrote: Oh, I wouldn’t agree with them, but it’s entirely plausible that a TFG could focus on ‘instead of’ and refuse to budge on that. Like I say, worth dropping a line to FAQs and asking for clarification.
...
Have you actually played anyone like that...like...ever? I never have.
Plas termites are nice, but you'll need to get some more chainaxes for budget build.
Termi lord is questionable, but you really want one if you go plasma heavy.
Plasma Termies with CL is viable. I prefer the CL to have a jump pack over TDA, though - makes it more likely you’ll get to use his formidable melee capability in turns after deep strike arrival. Though the Termie Lord does have access to a special Warlord Trait, which could be good if you intend to build a significant Terminator force.
If you’re not put off by the old sculpts (I personally still love them, especially when mixed up with a box of HH Mk 4), a box of Berzerkers will give you all the Chainaxes you need to make them cheap, and three plasma pistols to adapt the combi-weapons.
As for the leftovers, I’ve found that a Berzerker kitbashed to hold two bolters with a sheathed sword and generic helmet makes a good-looking Chosen with combi-bolter & chainsword, which is a nicely priced horde shooter.
Am i right in thinking that a MoP can use sacrifice on a LoDoH, choose the LoDoH to get 1 MW, then the MoP chooses the same LoDoH as the target for healing and he gets 3 wounds back, because he is both a DAEMON ENGINE and a WARPSMITH ?
I just checked, they're only 2 axes in the kit. That's pretty bad since the codex states that axes are the default weaponary.
Thanks for the tip, I will probably get the Berserker kit.
Wyswyg is just insane...even more though I totally fall for it.
Do we actually know if something else is coming for this release? Since possessed look super outdated and you can not play the new oblits in competetive size without purchasing 2 shadowspear boxes.
p5freak wrote: Am i right in thinking that a MoP can use sacrifice on a LoDoH, choose the LoDoH to get 1 MW, then the MoP chooses the same LoDoH as the target for healing and he gets 3 wounds back, because he is both a DAEMON ENGINE and a WARPSMITH ?
Until such time as an FAQ amends this, yes.
If one has cast Delightful Agonies on him, it may even become a full three wounds of healing
JohnnyRotten wrote: I just checked, they're only 2 axes in the kit. That's pretty bad since the codex states that axes are the default weaponary.
Thanks for the tip, I will probably get the Berserker kit.
Wyswyg is just insane...even more though I totally fall for it.
Do we actually know if something else is coming for this release? Since possessed look super outdated and you can not play the new oblits in competetive size without purchasing 2 shadowspear boxes.
I would wet myself if they brought out new Possessed in the style of the GP. Though knowing GW, and how they’ve shafted us on the havoc and terminator boxes, they’d only have one claw in the box. You’d need 9 boxes to make a unit that’s wysiwyg.
If you're doing plasma terminator drop with black legion you don't actually need the lord to babysit over charged plasma. You can use the BL strat to reroll 1s
vipoid wrote: I heard somewhere that Chaos Sorcerers can take Jump Packs in the new codex (as in, they don't need to use the Index rules for that anymore).
Is that true?
That's not new, the old codex already allowed that. Might you be thinking of taking a Disc of Tzeentch? You still need to fall back on the index (or Thousand Sons codex) for that.
p5freak wrote: Am i right in thinking that a MoP can use sacrifice on a LoDoH, choose the LoDoH to get 1 MW, then the MoP chooses the same LoDoH as the target for healing and he gets 3 wounds back, because he is both a DAEMON ENGINE and a WARPSMITH ?
Until such time as an FAQ amends this, yes.
If one has cast Delightful Agonies on him, it may even become a full three wounds of healing
Remember he auto heals `1 on his own, so it should be 3 anyway, so if you did have delightful agonies up it is possible he jumps 4 wounds and is still viable to repair with another WS for a further D3 It's why the black legion WLT to halve damage has my eye. It sounds like a funny idea to make a super durable one of these fellas. Realistically you would be better off spending the other characters points on a second or third LDoH though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nature's Minister wrote: How about chainlord on juggernaut of khorne near something holding crimson crown
It's OK, Jugger lords still suck over all IMHO though. They don't get a trait still, are not very fast and lack fly which is the most crucial flaw, meaning even if you somehow did manage to get one to be an efficient blender, he gets wrecked by chaf screens and walls. Thats always been his biggest problem IMO, he just struggles to get to the things he wants to hit in time to matter. I suppose you could bully mid field a bit, but that is a sad way to use a jugger lord The Lord Discordant was the replacement for biker and cavalry lords more or less.
Going over the math, the other relics don't really compare much to Ghorisvex's Teeth.
The murder sword pulls ahead in some cases but not by much and the theeth don't care bout what you are attacking.
The thunderhammer comes close against targets with no invuln but falls behind dramatically when considering a 3++. Against the teeth, having an invulnerable still helps but whatever is being targeted is most likely still going to die and then some.
Having the extra strength on weapon doesn't make much of a difference either when assuming VotLW and a DA. I guess you could keep a deathhex handy to counter that though, would also be nice for other legions.
A lord discordant does similar damage but can be shot out from a crowd. On the flipside, they need less support to get into melee in the first place.
The only thing that has the potential to hit even harder is the master of executions since he has essentially the same weapon as the teeth, minus the extra attacks but it allows him to take a different relic and he could end up with 3 damage which gets pretty ridiculous.
On top of that he is not locked behind the black legion, so a flawless host executioner is an absolute blender.
That said I haven't accounted for the crimson crown yet, which only the BL lord can benefit from via juggerlord (assuming teeth).
Then again, that has its own drawbacks.
Nature's Minister wrote: How about chainlord on juggernaut of khorne near something holding crimson crown
It has its ups and downs. He gets additional attacks from his mount, loses VotlW, can be healed by a MoP with sacrifice, and he can get a 3+ inv from the MoPs cursed earth psychic power.
Nature's Minister wrote: How about chainlord on juggernaut of khorne near something holding crimson crown
It has its ups and downs. He gets additional attacks from his mount, loses VotlW, can be healed by a MoP with sacrifice, and he can get a 3+ inv from the MoPs cursed earth psychic power.
Can't be put in a transport either, and he's not a rocket at an 8 inch move.
You also lose fury of khorne and a bunch of other stratgems.
vipoid wrote: I heard somewhere that Chaos Sorcerers can take Jump Packs in the new codex (as in, they don't need to use the Index rules for that anymore).
Is that true?
That's not new, the old codex already allowed that. Might you be thinking of taking a Disc of Tzeentch? You still need to fall back on the index (or Thousand Sons codex) for that.
Really? I could have sworn that Jump Packs had become Index-only in the last codex.
Nope, you could always take the jump pack. Demonic Cavalry and Bikes were removed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Red corsair chaos lords all on bikes with thunder hammers might be worth looking at. Auto advancing 6" means they would move 20" before assaulting. Could be great for disruption.
Nature's Minister wrote: How about chainlord on juggernaut of khorne near something holding crimson crown
It has its ups and downs. He gets additional attacks from his mount, loses VotlW, can be healed by a MoP with sacrifice, and he can get a 3+ inv from the MoPs cursed earth psychic power.
Can't be put in a transport either, and he's not a rocket at an 8 inch move.
You also lose fury of khorne and a bunch of other stratgems.
For really no good reason either. Why Calvary wasn't fixed I have no idea.
Nature's Minister wrote: How about chainlord on juggernaut of khorne near something holding crimson crown
It has its ups and downs. He gets additional attacks from his mount, loses VotlW, can be healed by a MoP with sacrifice, and he can get a 3+ inv from the MoPs cursed earth psychic power.
Can't be put in a transport either, and he's not a rocket at an 8 inch move.
You also lose fury of khorne and a bunch of other stratgems.
For really no good reason either. Why Calvary wasn't fixed I have no idea.
Gw, we can regard ourselves as lucky that we get a balance Patch all 6 months so to speak but also pay for that.
why play a juggerlord when you can play a jump pack lord with thunder hammer+relic chainsword, leave him unmarked and use the stratagem gives him all the marks, so you can give him (if you want invest points in sorcerer) +1 inv and/or 5+++ FNP, diabolic strengt and make him attack again with Korne stratagem, with votlw, a blender for 114pts
Nature's Minister wrote: How about chainlord on juggernaut of khorne near something holding crimson crown
It has its ups and downs. He gets additional attacks from his mount, loses VotlW, can be healed by a MoP with sacrifice, and he can get a 3+ inv from the MoPs cursed earth psychic power.
Can't be put in a transport either, and he's not a rocket at an 8 inch move.
You also lose fury of khorne and a bunch of other stratgems.
Crimson crown is a daemon relic. You can't exactly have a chaos lord on juggernaut with that.The closest to that would be a khorne herald on a juggernaut. I think they are called slaughtermaster or something like that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It occurs to me that if we run three sorcerors of Nurgle, Tzeentch and Slanaash, we can buff three squads of terminators as follows:
Squad 1 of 10 terminators. Nurgle - DA use -1 to hit prayer, Nurgle soreror cast miasma of pestilence. so -2 to hit in combat.
Squad 2 of 10 terminators. Tzeentch. Sorceror cast weaver of fates. for a +1++, Squad becomes 4++ invul save.
Squad 3 of 10 terminators. Slanaash sorceror cast delightful agonies. Terminator squad now has 5+ FNP.
So, you can have 30 very difficult to kill terminators on the field at the same time. lAlly in death guard and throw in another 10 blightlords... lol. Then have Abby make every single model fearless.
Nature's Minister wrote: How about chainlord on juggernaut of khorne near something holding crimson crown
It has its ups and downs. He gets additional attacks from his mount, loses VotlW, can be healed by a MoP with sacrifice, and he can get a 3+ inv from the MoPs cursed earth psychic power.
Can't be put in a transport either, and he's not a rocket at an 8 inch move.
You also lose fury of khorne and a bunch of other stratgems.
Crimson crown is a daemon relic. You can't exactly have a chaos lord on juggernaut with that.The closest to that would be a khorne herald on a juggernaut. I think they are called slaughtermaster or something like that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It occurs to me that if we run three sorcerors of Nurgle, Tzeentch and Slanaash, we can buff three squads of terminators as follows:
Squad 1 of 10 terminators. Nurgle - DA use -1 to hit prayer, Nurgle soreror cast miasma of pestilence. so -2 to hit in combat.
Squad 2 of 10 terminators. Tzeentch. Sorceror cast weaver of fates. for a +1++, Squad becomes 4++ invul save.
Squad 3 of 10 terminators. Slanaash sorceror cast delightful agonies. Terminator squad now has 5+ FNP.
So, you can have 30 very difficult to kill terminators on the field at the same time. lAlly in death guard and throw in another 10 blightlords... lol. Then have Abby make every single model fearless.
We can have a juggernaut via the chaos index. It makes the lord a daemon and gives you some extra attacks and movement.
The bad part is that it also removes infantry and turns it into cavalry which really messes with the main codex strats because GW doesn't consider them a thing and we have no other cavalry in the dex.
They're like sisters in that they still exist but are completely unsupported.
At least if you take a palanquin, you can still benefit from the nurgle pychic power to replace votlw, but it means having yet another character as support.
You're not getting into melee anytime soon mind you.
Given that they exist only in the index, I don't see GW touching them at all. Worse, if they re-introduce them via EC / WE we would loose them completely, not that they will but yea.
So one thing I was thinking about it taking a rhino and packing with a couple of nasty combat characters and beserkers.
One character I like the look of is a exalted champion with the murder sword.
With world eaters he has 5 attacks on the charge hitting on 2s, so a good chance to kill a 5 wound character without breaking a sweat, all in a nice cheap model which can support the beserkers.
I see a lot of debate about the black legion lord 2 mortal wound on a 6+ setup, but what worries me about that is the investment in CP and warlord..
mrtomski wrote: So one thing I was thinking about it taking a rhino and packing with a couple of nasty combat characters and beserkers.
One character I like the look of is a exalted champion with the murder sword.
With world eaters he has 5 attacks on the charge hitting on 2s, so a good chance to kill a 5 wound character without breaking a sweat, all in a nice cheap model which can support the beserkers.
I see a lot of debate about the black legion lord 2 mortal wound on a 6+ setup, but what worries me about that is the investment in CP and warlord..
I personally would pick the greater possed due to the better ammount of attacks and price over him but preference.
mrtomski wrote: So one thing I was thinking about it taking a rhino and packing with a couple of nasty combat characters and beserkers.
One character I like the look of is a exalted champion with the murder sword.
With world eaters he has 5 attacks on the charge hitting on 2s, so a good chance to kill a 5 wound character without breaking a sweat, all in a nice cheap model which can support the beserkers.
I see a lot of debate about the black legion lord 2 mortal wound on a 6+ setup, but what worries me about that is the investment in CP and warlord..
I personally would pick the greater possed due to the better ammount of attacks and price over him but preference.
Can we put a greater possessed in a rhino? And how many places does he occupy?
So kick ass melee are you gonna run 3lord D's 3EXE's or greater possessed?
or some supreme command combo?
Im thinking 3 lord D's with 1-2 exe and elite slot of some greater possessed should be able to eat most things on a table and still leave plenty of points for competitive options!
mrtomski wrote: So one thing I was thinking about it taking a rhino and packing with a couple of nasty combat characters and beserkers.
One character I like the look of is a exalted champion with the murder sword.
With world eaters he has 5 attacks on the charge hitting on 2s, so a good chance to kill a 5 wound character without breaking a sweat, all in a nice cheap model which can support the beserkers.
I see a lot of debate about the black legion lord 2 mortal wound on a 6+ setup, but what worries me about that is the investment in CP and warlord..
I personally would pick the greater possed due to the better ammount of attacks and price over him but preference.
I believe the point was to buff the zerkers, the GP only affects darmons.that and he can,t really take any relics
mrtomski wrote: So one thing I was thinking about it taking a rhino and packing with a couple of nasty combat characters and beserkers.
One character I like the look of is a exalted champion with the murder sword.
With world eaters he has 5 attacks on the charge hitting on 2s, so a good chance to kill a 5 wound character without breaking a sweat, all in a nice cheap model which can support the beserkers.
I see a lot of debate about the black legion lord 2 mortal wound on a 6+ setup, but what worries me about that is the investment in CP and warlord..
I personally would pick the greater possed due to the better ammount of attacks and price over him but preference.
I believe the point was to buff the zerkers, the GP only affects darmons.that and he can,t really take any relics
Great possessed is interesting...
He's tougher for sure, but the WE exalted champion can reroll against characters with ws2 and basically put out 5 mortal wounds reliably against a char, (possibly more more against imperium with some 6s to hit). In addition he's granting everyone near him full wound rerolls in combat. Since beserkers s6 they are going to threaten anything in that scenario. With the guys I play with i see a lot of storm shields so I'd love a way to bypass them.
He is 4w and no invun, but also only 74 points. I'd probably already have a lord with him, so I guess it really comes down to is the wound reroll worth compromising survivability?
mrtomski wrote: So one thing I was thinking about it taking a rhino and packing with a couple of nasty combat characters and beserkers.
One character I like the look of is a exalted champion with the murder sword.
With world eaters he has 5 attacks on the charge hitting on 2s, so a good chance to kill a 5 wound character without breaking a sweat, all in a nice cheap model which can support the beserkers.
I see a lot of debate about the black legion lord 2 mortal wound on a 6+ setup, but what worries me about that is the investment in CP and warlord..
I personally would pick the greater possed due to the better ammount of attacks and price over him but preference.
I believe the point was to buff the zerkers, the GP only affects darmons.that and he can,t really take any relics
Great possessed is interesting...
He's tougher for sure, but the WE exalted champion can reroll against characters with ws2 and basically put out 5 mortal wounds reliably against a char, (possibly more more against imperium with some 6s to hit). In addition he's granting everyone near him full wound rerolls in combat. Since beserkers s6 they are going to threaten anything in that scenario. With the guys I play with i see a lot of storm shields so I'd love a way to bypass them.
He is 4w and no invun, but also only 74 points. I'd probably already have a lord with him, so I guess it really comes down to is the wound reroll worth compromising survivability?
1, 1, 8? That would work immo,
Is it worth it, depends on what you catch.
Is there anything competitive with Alpha Legion for a devastation battery? Red Corsairs is great for feeding the CP-hungry detachment but it seems like you really want the units in this detachment to have access to Vets. Don't think the other legions have anything that would be particularly relevant to Havocs/Oblits.
Flawless Host Chaos Lord with Jumppack and Murder Sword - clocks in at 97 pts.
Give him the FH Warlord Trait and +1 to hit and he will on average get 9,33 attacks against imperium and 8 attacks against non-imperium.
These attacks will on average result in 9,07 / 7,78 Mortal Wounds on their allotted target, depending on if they're imperium or not.
The Flawless Host Daemon Prince is a better blender, but this lord is almost half the price and is still decent at munching trough regular RnF with his (on average) 9,33 / 8 S5 AP4 attacks.
Flawless Host Chaos Lord with Jumppack and Murder Sword - clocks in at 97 pts.
Give him the FH Warlord Trait and +1 to hit and he will on average get 9,33 attacks against imperium and 8 attacks against non-imperium.
These attacks will on average result in 9,07 / 7,78 Mortal Wounds on their allotted target, depending on if they're imperium or not.
The Flawless Host Daemon Prince is a better blender, but this lord is almost half the price and is still decent at munching trough regular RnF with his (on average) 9,33 / 8 S5 AP4 attacks.
Nice, 8 mortal wounds is no joke, banking on rolling at least 1 5 or 6 though.
I guess then the question is, is 3 mortal wounds in combat worth your WL trait?
Interesting point that most people will make thier lead knight a character, so fight twice to almost kill it?
Is there even more synergy to be had with host raptorial? 7" charge to help him get there..
I guess then the question is, is 3 mortal wounds in combat worth your WL trait?
The Flawless Host WL-trait is amazing. It's incredibly bursty/spiky though.
Roll poorly (i.e. not a single 5+ on 4 dice) and the damage output is severely hampered (4 mortal wounds on average still isn't bad.)
Roll slightly above average though, and instead of averaging 8 mortal wounds, you'll get 12 or even 16.
I guess then the question is, is 3 mortal wounds in combat worth your WL trait?
The Flawless Host WL-trait is amazing. It's incredibly bursty/spiky though.
Roll poorly (i.e. not a single 5+ on 4 dice) and the damage output is severely hampered (4 mortal wounds on average still isn't bad.)
Roll slightly above average though, and instead of averaging 8 mortal wounds, you'll get 12 or even 16.
Hmm now I'm thinking about my prince. I'm guessing flawless host is going to make the craziest cc prince? I'd be interested to know what setups people are using.
I guess my only concern is relying on the +1 to hit is that I'd like to use that on plasma terminators or other shooting units.
I guess then the question is, is 3 mortal wounds in combat worth your WL trait?
The Flawless Host WL-trait is amazing. It's incredibly bursty/spiky though.
Roll poorly (i.e. not a single 5+ on 4 dice) and the damage output is severely hampered (4 mortal wounds on average still isn't bad.)
Roll slightly above average though, and instead of averaging 8 mortal wounds, you'll get 12 or even 16.
You could do something similar to this with the black legion in the old book verse imperium. Chaos lord with first among traitors and prescience with the murder sword gets extra attacks on a 4+ but the best part is he doesn't need to be the one with the warlord trait, just in range, meaning he can be used without necessarily giving up STW. So you could use the field commander from a raptoral host and do it from the drop fairly reliably. Add in a demon shell and that should be more then enough. The Flawless host does pretty much guarantee the kill though but I don't like the idea of trading him away. I suppose you could use him as a deterrent though since he is so cheap. Even Abbadon would think twice about getting near that guy if he is murder marked by the sword.
I guess then the question is, is 3 mortal wounds in combat worth your WL trait?
The Flawless Host WL-trait is amazing. It's incredibly bursty/spiky though.
Roll poorly (i.e. not a single 5+ on 4 dice) and the damage output is severely hampered (4 mortal wounds on average still isn't bad.)
Roll slightly above average though, and instead of averaging 8 mortal wounds, you'll get 12 or even 16.
Hmm now I'm thinking about my prince. I'm guessing flawless host is going to make the craziest cc prince? I'd be interested to know what setups people are using.
I guess my only concern is relying on the +1 to hit is that I'd like to use that on plasma terminators or other shooting units.
It's not something you cast on him every turn though.
I am just not comfortable exposing my warlord to such danger. Because most likely he will be charging the biggest baddest stuff around with that kind of build. I am also not sure what else to use flawless host on. Host Raptorial? Their trait is meant for melee.
Hmm now I'm thinking about my prince. I'm guessing flawless host is going to make the craziest cc prince? I'd be interested to know what setups people are using.
I guess my only concern is relying on the +1 to hit is that I'd like to use that on plasma terminators or other shooting units.
I did the math earlier in this thread, and a Flawless Host "Blender Prince" with dual talons, intoxicating elixir (why not) and prescience averages 20 S8 AP2 D2 attacks against imperium and 17 against non-imperium.
And as Red Corsair stated, you don't have to give him Prescience all the time, just when he's about to charge something you want dead.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am just not comfortable exposing my warlord to such danger. Because most likely he will be charging the biggest baddest stuff around with that kind of build. I am also not sure what else to use flawless host on. Host Raptorial? Their trait is meant for melee.
Orkz do it all the time, why not take a page out of their book.
When running a bare bones detachment of Red Corsairs CSM - competitive ITC - what is the best HQ choices? Warpsmith clocks in dirt cheap but is essentially vindicare fodder and adds nothing to most lists as can only repair 'Red Corsairs' vehcs - sorcerers can help the remainder of the army but have a similar problem with being instagibed - DP maybe but even with advance and charge seems a step down from a TSons DP where the points may be better spent. Chaos lord with jump pack and thunder hammers - also dies to vindicare spam?
At the moment i'm leaning towards the warpsmith even though it adds nothing to most comp lists aside from the CP farm.
I'm tempted to put a Chaingun on the CSM squads as it isn't terribly more expensive but realizing these will die instantly in 1 turn against a competent army looks like it makes it a waste of points.
P.S. status of Ahriman in the meta now? Was an auto-include in nearly every list before - and while he is not 'infantry' on a disc he still eats wounds on a 3+ and will die on average to one vindicare shot / refire (85 point unit instakilling 166 core unit is not ideal) - or does he go on foot / in a rhino now and dare the castellan to pop it?
buddha wrote: Ahriman in an otherwise all demon list just won a decent tournament so I'd say still very competitive.
Do you know which tournament / share additional details around the list? If this is adepticon - bear in mind assassinorum was not in play and ITC ruleset was not used I believe.
Since daemon engines are now a bit for viable with the new lord discordant and the new formation
anyone thought about maxing them out with a bit of nurgle daemons old epidemus can deal deal them out some serious buffs if you can get some unit killing momentum.
I like Epidemius, but an issue with him is that he's "Win More."
What I mean by that is that, chances are if you get tally real high, you'd've won without him anyway. If you can nom on some chaff units or something, you can get some nice bonuses, but I'm not sure he'd be fully competitive.
I've seen success in my local meta with him, but I run a more Daemon-heavy list (though I do include a Maulerfiend often) and honestly, my local meta ain't the most competitive.
I think I've just about optimized the Lord Discordant megameme.
You need:
Lord Discordant with Mecha-serpents relic
Dark Apostle with Soultearer Portent
Master of Possession with Cursed Earth & Infernal Power
Bloodmaster with Crimson Crown
Skull Altar
As many enemies to charge as possible.
How about run a Feculent Gnarlmaw tree.
Stick renegade commanders and command squads around it and hope they die to increase the tally? XD
Infact pay the pts for them and make them under strength units as per the rules. take loads of different cheap units like renegade cmd (know you can only take one of each type) one model strong.
you'll be up the tally in no time XD
deciple squad (under stength to 1 model) -> 30pts
command squad (under stength to 1 mdel) -> 24pts
maurader squad (under stength to 1 model) -> 30pts
brimstorne horrors (under stength to 1 model) -> 30pts
stick all 3 by the tree roll for all three each turn on a 4+ ye going up the tally lol
Latro_ wrote: How about run a Feculent Gnarlmaw tree.
Stick renegade commanders and command squads around it and hope they die to increase the tally? XD
Infact pay the pts for them and make them under strength units as per the rules. take loads of different cheap units like renegade cmd (know you can only take one of each type) one model strong.
you'll be up the tally in no time XD
deciple squad (under stength to 1 model) -> 30pts
command squad (under stength to 1 mdel) -> 24pts
maurader squad (under stength to 1 model) -> 30pts
stick all 3 by the tree roll for all three each turn on a 4+ ye going up the tally lol
Deliciously trolly, tho in latest matched play rules understrength take up an aux detachment each.
was also thinking you can double this up with a cheap caster doing:
Nurgle’s Rot has a warp charge value of 7. If manifested, roll a D6 for every unit (excluding NURGLE units) within
7" of the psyker. On a 4+ the unit being rolled for suffers
D3 mortal wounds
XD
Was also thinking powerise on a lord discordant strick virulent blessing on him:
+1 to wound 7+ to wound causes double damage
stick VOTLW on him now ye triggering this on 5's
DA soultear its 4's
orkswubwub wrote: When running a bare bones detachment of Red Corsairs CSM - competitive ITC - what is the best HQ choices?
.............
I'm tempted to put a Chaingun on the CSM squads as it isn't terribly more expensive but realizing these will die instantly in 1 turn against a competent army looks like it makes it a waste of points.
I think that if you are going red corsairs for CP, I would squeeze Huron in there and maybe even make him warlord for extra CP. 105p chaos lord with psychic power and can cast smite aswell after prescience or some such.
At 1k RCC's have been good with csm too, but now playing 1,5k game, swapped them to AC for longer range and price. Although I play full RC so my 3rd csm unit is a bigger blob which still has a single RCC along with plasmas to enter hopefully enemy territory with the there's more where they came from strat.. If your enemy is shooting your csm, it's less heat off from your 4x RCC and 4x LC havocs..
buddha wrote: Ahriman in an otherwise all demon list just won a decent tournament so I'd say still very competitive.
Do you know which tournament / share additional details around the list? If this is adepticon - bear in mind assassinorum was not in play and ITC ruleset was not used I believe.
He was used in the list that won at Adeptacon a week ago.
Snipers really aren't that scary. If your opponent is rocking 3 vindicare just hide him behind a wall and cast buffing spells that game. He then wasted his shots on daemon princes and the like.
buddha wrote: Ahriman in an otherwise all demon list just won a decent tournament so I'd say still very competitive.
Do you know which tournament / share additional details around the list? If this is adepticon - bear in mind assassinorum was not in play and ITC ruleset was not used I believe.
He was used in the list that won at Adeptacon a week ago.
Snipers really aren't that scary. If your opponent is rocking 3 vindicare just hide him behind a wall and cast buffing spells that game. He then wasted his shots on daemon princes and the like.
9/10 games snipers aren't a worry.
The new Primaris ones beg to differ, especially with their ignore LoS. I lost three characters to them over two tunrs this past weekend.
Huh, could this work? Think of it as a sort of 40k moritat.
Jump pack Black legion lord with black clad brute: 4+ on a charge to deal d3 mortal wounds.(and extra strength but who cares)
Chiropteran Wings: 4+ in the movement and charge phase when moving over stuff, d3 mortal wounds.
Pistol for daemon shells, d3 mortal wounds
Maybe add a thunderhammer for good measure, or a plasma pistol for obvious reasons
Manoevring in such a way that you can actually shoot the character might be luck, but charging/ flying past it should be much more manageable.
That alone could generate 3d3 MW, which would be an average of 6 wounds with no saves regardless of toughness.
Enough to kill most characters in a very cheap package. And you can fall back +charge again for another 2d3 MW due to the BL stratagem, though I doubt that need would come up.
And it doesn't rely on other characters being around.
So I just realized that since the Noctilith Crown applies to all Chaos, it can give a 5++ to Renegade Russes or even a baneblade (although they'd be hard to fit wholly within). You could do a Crown + Renegades battalion + CSM battalion and do some nice Iron Warriors or something. Normally Renegade Russes aren't worth it because they can't get the traits and buffs that Guard can. But 5++ gives them a solid edge on durability.
buddha wrote: Ahriman in an otherwise all demon list just won a decent tournament so I'd say still very competitive.
Do you know which tournament / share additional details around the list? If this is adepticon - bear in mind assassinorum was not in play and ITC ruleset was not used I believe.
He was used in the list that won at Adeptacon a week ago.
Snipers really aren't that scary. If your opponent is rocking 3 vindicare just hide him behind a wall and cast buffing spells that game. He then wasted his shots on daemon princes and the like.
9/10 games snipers aren't a worry.
The new Primaris ones beg to differ, especially with their ignore LoS. I lost three characters to them over two tunrs this past weekend.
How many were they running?? They're heavy 1 4str -1ap 1 dmg. That's 24 shots to down Ahriman on adverage.
Anyone else feel that sonic blasters should go down to 1/2pts from 4pts ? They felt fine before the bolter drill, but now they just feel awfully over costed.
Rydria wrote: Anyone else feel that sonic blasters should go down to 1/2pts from 4pts ? They felt fine before the bolter drill, but now they just feel awfully over costed.
Well, they are still assault, and ignore cover....er...nope. They're no longer worth 4 pts. If you could take them on Terminators or Chosen instead Comb-bolters? They either need to come down to 2 pts. Or they need something: +1S, or AP-1. Maybe AP-4 on a 6+ to wound.
Rydria wrote: Anyone else feel that sonic blasters should go down to 1/2pts from 4pts ? They felt fine before the bolter drill, but now they just feel awfully over costed.
2 pts gives you a combi-bolter with 2/4 shots at 24", depending on if you moved. Sonic blaster is 3 shots at 24" regardless of if you moved and ignore cover, and can advance and shoot (like anybody ever does!). So 2-3 points is about right compared to the combi-bolter. But that makes an SB noise marine ~17 pts instead of the current 19. They aren't worth using at 19, and they still won't be worth using at 17. This is because the problem isn't so much the cost of the weapon, it's the cost of the overall unit for what it does. 16pt combi-bolter chosen aren't worth using either.
There are two problems:
1) Bolters and similar weapons are bad because they went from Str4 ap5 to Str4 ap0. Most other factions Str4 ap5 weapons got a special rule or point of AP or something (shuriken, gauss, etc). Bolter just got flat out nerfed for no reason going into 8th. 3 str4 ap 0 shots doesn't kill anything. You could have the sonic blaster be free, and they still aren't worth using because you're still paying 15pts for the noise marine. Maybe for 10pts 3 s4ap0 shots would be worth considering.
2) Marines themselves aren't good. You're paying 15pts for relatively bad durability, and a bunch of that is going to a second attack that doesn't help much as it's not enough to kill much, and also not enough to stand up to real CC units (unlike in the past.)
Marines need to get more durable, and bolters and equivalent weapons need to get better. If Sonic Blaster was ap-1 it'd be nearly worth using. if it was ap-1 and marines had 2 wounds or 2+ armor or ignored a point of AP or something, then suddenly the sonic blaster noise marine is decent like it was in 5th. And if that happens, it'll probably be decent even at its current cost.
Rydria wrote: Anyone else feel that sonic blasters should go down to 1/2pts from 4pts ? They felt fine before the bolter drill, but now they just feel awfully over costed.
I don't know if half price is needed but yes they just dont seem to be worth what they were before. One could argue you dont need to upgrade them to noise blasters and they can keep bolters but thats not really a slaanesh thing to do.
Rydria wrote: Anyone else feel that sonic blasters should go down to 1/2pts from 4pts ? They felt fine before the bolter drill, but now they just feel awfully over costed.
2 pts gives you a combi-bolter with 2/4 shots at 24", depending on if you moved. Sonic blaster is 3 shots at 24" regardless of if you moved and ignore cover, and can advance and shoot (like anybody ever does!). So 2-3 points is about right compared to the combi-bolter. But that makes an SB noise marine ~17 pts instead of the current 19. They aren't worth using at 19, and they still won't be worth using at 17. This is because the problem isn't so much the cost of the weapon, it's the cost of the overall unit for what it does. 16pt combi-bolter chosen aren't worth using either.
There are two problems:
1) Bolters and similar weapons are bad because they went from Str4 ap5 to Str4 ap0. Most other factions Str4 ap5 weapons got a special rule or point of AP or something (shuriken, gauss, etc). Bolter just got flat out nerfed for no reason going into 8th. 3 str4 ap 0 shots doesn't kill anything. You could have the sonic blaster be free, and they still aren't worth using because you're still paying 15pts for the noise marine. Maybe for 10pts 3 s4ap0 shots would be worth considering.
2) Marines themselves aren't good. You're paying 15pts for relatively bad durability, and a bunch of that is going to a second attack that doesn't help much as it's not enough to kill much, and also not enough to stand up to real CC units (unlike in the past.)
Marines need to get more durable, and bolters and equivalent weapons need to get better. If Sonic Blaster was ap-1 it'd be nearly worth using. if it was ap-1 and marines had 2 wounds or 2+ armor or ignored a point of AP or something, then suddenly the sonic blaster noise marine is decent like it was in 5th. And if that happens, it'll probably be decent even at its current cost.
This is all true but its not something likely to be addressed this edition. Unless, Emperor's Children actually get a codex in the 8th the best we can really hope for is a price drop in Chapter Approved. But, I would happily field Noise Marines armed with Sonic Blasters for 16 pts; as that would still save 30 pts per ten man squad.
Rydria wrote: Anyone else feel that sonic blasters should go down to 1/2pts from 4pts ? They felt fine before the bolter drill, but now they just feel awfully over costed.
2 pts gives you a combi-bolter with 2/4 shots at 24", depending on if you moved. Sonic blaster is 3 shots at 24" regardless of if you moved and ignore cover, and can advance and shoot (like anybody ever does!). So 2-3 points is about right compared to the combi-bolter. But that makes an SB noise marine ~17 pts instead of the current 19. They aren't worth using at 19, and they still won't be worth using at 17. This is because the problem isn't so much the cost of the weapon, it's the cost of the overall unit for what it does. 16pt combi-bolter chosen aren't worth using either.
There are two problems:
1) Bolters and similar weapons are bad because they went from Str4 ap5 to Str4 ap0. Most other factions Str4 ap5 weapons got a special rule or point of AP or something (shuriken, gauss, etc). Bolter just got flat out nerfed for no reason going into 8th. 3 str4 ap 0 shots doesn't kill anything. You could have the sonic blaster be free, and they still aren't worth using because you're still paying 15pts for the noise marine. Maybe for 10pts 3 s4ap0 shots would be worth considering.
2) Marines themselves aren't good. You're paying 15pts for relatively bad durability, and a bunch of that is going to a second attack that doesn't help much as it's not enough to kill much, and also not enough to stand up to real CC units (unlike in the past.)
Marines need to get more durable, and bolters and equivalent weapons need to get better. If Sonic Blaster was ap-1 it'd be nearly worth using. if it was ap-1 and marines had 2 wounds or 2+ armor or ignored a point of AP or something, then suddenly the sonic blaster noise marine is decent like it was in 5th. And if that happens, it'll probably be decent even at its current cost.
This is all true but its not something likely to be addressed this edition. Unless, Emperor's Children actually get a codex in the 8th the best we can really hope for is a price drop in Chapter Approved. But, I would happily field Noise Marines armed with Sonic Blasters for 16 pts; as that would still save 30 pts per ten man squad.
I think the Beta Bolter rule shows that GW realizes there's a problem with standard marine infantry. I think if we push them hard enough we may also get a Beta Power Armor rule, and perhaps a beta chainsword rule! Although I will totally take points drops, as it's better than nothing. But it's not really the proper solution. GW needs to realize that a large portion of their range isn't selling because of rules issues that can be fixed with a few lines of text and let their desire for money handle the rest.
(Note that I'm not asking for marine infantry to be overpowered, just usable. Kind of like it was in 5th. You were forced to use tacs/csm then, and they weren't always optimal. But they were decent, useful units that could achieve things. That's what I'd like to see again.)
I dont know, my marines have been doing pretty good the last month or so that i have been playing them in mass. I have found if you keep them hugging cover as much as possible, popping out into the open only when they are forced to deal with an incoming threat, they are pretty good.
The biggest issue is there has been an unintended unit swap from previous editions to this one. Back in 4th a marine player didnt have to be exactly smart in their tactical maneuvers, your armor would protect you. But if you were someone like guard or eldar you couldn't afford to just throw your units away with a bad tactical plan.
Flip the script now and marines need to be more cautious while guard dont care because their units are so cheap vs ours. I love dropping 40 marines down on the table, but ita 262 pts for my squad of 20 and 163 for my 2 squads of 10 the way i run them. For that cost as a guard player i could almost have an entire brigade!
So yeah, cost is still a major factor in keeping marines down.
Azuza001 wrote: I dont know, my marines have been doing pretty good the last month or so that i have been playing them in mass. I have found if you keep them hugging cover as much as possible, popping out into the open only when they are forced to deal with an incoming threat, they are pretty good.
The biggest issue is there has been an unintended unit swap from previous editions to this one. Back in 4th a marine player didnt have to be exactly smart in their tactical maneuvers, your armor would protect you. But if you were someone like guard or eldar you couldn't afford to just throw your units away with a bad tactical plan.
Flip the script now and marines need to be more cautious while guard dont care because their units are so cheap vs ours. I love dropping 40 marines down on the table, but ita 262 pts for my squad of 20 and 163 for my 2 squads of 10 the way i run them. For that cost as a guard player i could almost have an entire brigade!
So yeah, cost is still a major factor in keeping marines down.
Yup. You have to play more carefully because the unit is not as efficient for its points. If the guard player also plays very carefully, you'll be in big trouble! Making marines cheaper does fix this of course. 10pt tacs or CSM would be good. But then they wouldn't feel like marines anymore. So I'd much rather see them get buffed up instead.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am just not comfortable exposing my warlord to such danger. Because most likely he will be charging the biggest baddest stuff around with that kind of build. I am also not sure what else to use flawless host on. Host Raptorial? Their trait is meant for melee.
Worth noting that Host Raptorial can have your Warlord in it with the Chapter trait, and also another Chaos Lord in the same Host can Field Commander to give your killer a pretty good shot at ramming the Murder Sword right down some prey’s throat
Azuza001 wrote: I dont know, my marines have been doing pretty good the last month or so that i have been playing them in mass. I have found if you keep them hugging cover as much as possible, popping out into the open only when they are forced to deal with an incoming threat, they are pretty good.
The biggest issue is there has been an unintended unit swap from previous editions to this one. Back in 4th a marine player didnt have to be exactly smart in their tactical maneuvers, your armor would protect you. But if you were someone like guard or eldar you couldn't afford to just throw your units away with a bad tactical plan.
Flip the script now and marines need to be more cautious while guard dont care because their units are so cheap vs ours. I love dropping 40 marines down on the table, but ita 262 pts for my squad of 20 and 163 for my 2 squads of 10 the way i run them. For that cost as a guard player i could almost have an entire brigade!
So yeah, cost is still a major factor in keeping marines down.
Yup. You have to play more carefully because the unit is not as efficient for its points. If the guard player also plays very carefully, you'll be in big trouble! Making marines cheaper does fix this of course. 10pt tacs or CSM would be good. But then they wouldn't feel like marines anymore. So I'd much rather see them get buffed up instead.
I can’t help but feel like Marines should have got 2W and Primaris, Terminators, and Possessed should have got 3W. Though this would (1) make Primaris feel nowhere near as new and shiny, and (2) probably require tanks and knights have significantly more Wounds themselves to feel tough and survive the Autocannon-rich environment it would encourage
I am kinda surprised that up till now, there hasn't been much discussion on world eaters or berserkers. I mean, zerkers are still our best melee unit. Chaos soup with zerkers or WE probably got better. Even pure WE got better too, given all the new stuff we have been given.
30coins wrote: looking to ask list-builders here.
any chance to make a 60 man (3x20) horde of possessed workable?
Make them alpha legion so they all get -1 to hit. Then make them part of daemonkin ritualist specialist detachment. Throw in one to three greater possessed to buff their strength, throw in a master of possession to cast cursed earth and stuff.
Then give all 3 horde different marks (one slanaash, one nurgle and one tzeenth). Now bring 3 sorcerors. One will cast delightful agonies, one will cast miasma of pestilence, one will cast weaver of fates. So now, your nurgle possessed is -2 to hit, 4++, your tzeenth possessed are -1 to hit, 3++, your slanaash possessed is -1 tp hit, 4++, 5+ FNP.
Run up the board with these 60 possessed, tank everything the opponent can throw at you, and then charge into glorious combat to maim, kill and burn!
(By the way, if you want to burn through all your command points. use forward operatives on all 3 horde and your master of possession and your greater possessed. Then your whole army is essentially in your opponent's face turn 1.).
Sample sort of list:
Red corsairs batallion:
HQ: 1 nurgle sorceror, 1 slanaash sorceror
Troops: 3 min squads of CSM. (hold back objectives, protect your sorcerors).
Scanning through rules, though, this does raise an issue. If you’re using the Renegades rules from Codex CSM, then you have access to the non-LEGION Relics with any Renegade unnamed character. BUT:
Vigilus Ablaze p196 wrote:If your army is led by a Chaos Space Marine Warlord, you may give the appropriate Renegade Artefact from page 200 to a RED CORSAIRS, CRIMSON SLAUGHTER, PURGE, SCOURGED, BRAZEN BEASTS or FLAWLESS HOST CHARACTER from your army, instead of those presented in Codex: Chaos Space Marines.
That’s actually kind of sloppy grammar. A rules lawyer could make a case that you can’t take Codex CSM Relics on the above Renegade Chapters.
Probably an idea to inbox FAQs before the initial document goes live.
Just noticed that this is how BattleScribe treats it at the moment I'm trying out ideas and wanted a Flawless Host Slaanesh GP with intoxicating elixir and ultimate confidence as my warlord, but BattleScribe won't let me give him (it?) the relic. I was thinking of sticking 2xGP and a Sorc (Diabolic Strength + Prescience) in a Rhino with some Noise Marines to make a kind of party bus.
The GP Warlord would end up (if things work out) at 7A S8 AP-2 D3 damage with every 5+ generating 3 extra attacks. For 1 CP you get to re-roll all attack rolls that are 4 or lower. On average against non-Imperium T7 3+ you're looking at something like 12 unsaved wounds (the math wizards could work it out in greater detail, I'm guestimating).
And of course, this doesn't take into account the Noise Marines' sonic blasters and melee attacks, the other GP or the Sorc.
Of course, the whole party eats up around 450 or so points...
Hmmm, if you are using a party bus, I think slanaash chosen are probably better than noise marines. since you are probably going to get out of the Rhino into rapid fire range. 4 shots from combi bolters will be better than 3 from sonic weapons. Also, chosen probably fight better than Noise marines with sonic weapons. You can equip some of the chosen with chain axes for just 1 point and now they suddenly have +1 str and -1 AP.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmmm, if you are using a party bus, I think slanaash chosen are probably better than noise marines. since you are probably going to get out of the Rhino into rapid fire range. 4 shots from combi bolters will be better than 3 from sonic weapons. Also, chosen probably fight better than Noise marines with sonic weapons. You can equip some of the chosen with chain axes for just 1 point and now they suddenly have +1 str and -1 AP.
Oh yeah! I still had the Noise Marines in there because my previous idea was to use Red Corsairs for the advance+charge, a setup I'll be using in a tournament this weekend (1000pts Patrol only, I want the CP).
I still need to model those combi-bolter Chosen...
Might have missed it somewhere, but how about a WE Jump Lord in a Host Raptorial with the warlord trait and a Thunder Hammer? Between the Legion Trait, VotLW and the fight twice stratagem that's 10 attacks with a +1 to wound Thunder Hammer. Talisman of Burning Blood gives you rerolls to charge as well. We'll call him Slamgron.
If you feel like putting even more eggs in your angry basket, you could run a second Jump Pack Lord and have him have the Host Raptorial trait, deep strike both the Lords near each other and have Slamgron take Hatred Incarnate instead to get wound rerolls on 1s as well.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Might have missed it somewhere, but how about a WE Jump Lord in a Host Raptorial with the warlord trait and a Thunder Hammer? Between the Legion Trait, VotLW and the fight twice stratagem that's 10 attacks with a +1 to wound Thunder Hammer. Talisman of Burning Blood gives you rerolls to charge as well. We'll call him Slamgron.
If you feel like putting even more eggs in your angry basket, you could run a second Jump Pack Lord and have him have the Host Raptorial trait, deep strike both the Lords near each other and have Slamgron take Hatred Incarnate instead to get wound rerolls on 1s as well.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmmm, if you are using a party bus, I think slanaash chosen are probably better than noise marines. since you are probably going to get out of the Rhino into rapid fire range. 4 shots from combi bolters will be better than 3 from sonic weapons. Also, chosen probably fight better than Noise marines with sonic weapons. You can equip some of the chosen with chain axes for just 1 point and now they suddenly have +1 str and -1 AP.
I think I might even throw fluff out of the window and put some Zerkers in the bus. Flawless Host + Berzerkers sounds like a marriage made in heaventhe Eye of Terror.
I'm actually liking the new executioner with the MoS and intoxicating elixir giving him 6 str.10 attacks hitting on 2s. Need a second cheap HQ after Huron and it can go with berserkers in a rhino for a nasty unit.
There might be things to be said for taking the Soulforged Pack WT on a Warpsmith. Snipers notwithstanding, that guarantees that your Maulerfiend rush gets +2M on the first turn. If you’ve got a Gnarlmaw or Slaaneshi Daemons, they’re advancing and charging. One of them rolls high for Advance, they’re going to charge anything set up on the line, and Warptime can get the other one in. If the Warpsmith rolls high on an Advance, they could enable an Advance on the WT as well.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Might have missed it somewhere, but how about a WE Jump Lord in a Host Raptorial with the warlord trait and a Thunder Hammer? Between the Legion Trait, VotLW and the fight twice stratagem that's 10 attacks with a +1 to wound Thunder Hammer. Talisman of Burning Blood gives you rerolls to charge as well. We'll call him Slamgron.
If you feel like putting even more eggs in your angry basket, you could run a second Jump Pack Lord and have him have the Host Raptorial trait, deep strike both the Lords near each other and have Slamgron take Hatred Incarnate instead to get wound rerolls on 1s as well.
lol talking of beta bolter rules, if you take the Fallen detachment thing from vigilis they can't use it as it removes their heretic astates keyword XD
Listen, when it comes to fallen Gw should just admit their rules are all sorts of raw broken. First it was no vehicle transport. Then it was the sorcerer loses heritc astarties so half his spells are worthless. Now this. Lol.
Just play fallen as choosen and make your life easier is what i say.
Azuza001 wrote: Listen, when it comes to fallen Gw should just admit their rules are all sorts of raw broken. First it was no vehicle transport. Then it was the sorcerer loses heritc astarties so half his spells are worthless. Now this. Lol.
Just play fallen as choosen and make your life easier is what i say.
lindsay40k wrote: There might be things to be said for taking the Soulforged Pack WT on a Warpsmith. Snipers notwithstanding, that guarantees that your Maulerfiend rush gets +2M on the first turn. If you’ve got a Gnarlmaw or Slaaneshi Daemons, they’re advancing and charging. One of them rolls high for Advance, they’re going to charge anything set up on the line, and Warptime can get the other one in. If the Warpsmith rolls high on an Advance, they could enable an Advance on the WT as well.
It’s a safer basket for it than a LD.
Are you suggesting him in addition to a LD or in place of entirely? If your taking him in addition (I would assume) then I see no problem with it, although it really depends on points available, because if I can get a second LD I will rather then taking a normal WS.
lindsay40k wrote: There might be things to be said for taking the Soulforged Pack WT on a Warpsmith. Snipers notwithstanding, that guarantees that your Maulerfiend rush gets +2M on the first turn. If you’ve got a Gnarlmaw or Slaaneshi Daemons, they’re advancing and charging. One of them rolls high for Advance, they’re going to charge anything set up on the line, and Warptime can get the other one in. If the Warpsmith rolls high on an Advance, they could enable an Advance on the WT as well.
It’s a safer basket for it than a LD.
Are you suggesting him in addition to a LD or in place of entirely? If your taking him in addition (I would assume) then I see no problem with it, although it really depends on points available, because if I can get a second LD I will rather then taking a normal WS.
In addition to! He’s an option for a safe pair of hands. In a large game, there’s even things to be said for taking him and a few Lords Discordant - even if the LDs all get nuked on T1 by an army built to take out 28 T8 wounds behind a 4++,, a Daemon Engine jamboree can still all get extra movement.
I for one like the idea of adding a Lord Discordant to my Daemons. I already run a double Bloodthirster list with a Keeper of Secrets thrown in to boot, so having yet more target saturation for big guns while giving me the option to get rotor cannon Havocs to clear chaff sounds great. Sure, he's not protected by Character status, but he's plenty tanky for his points, especially when there's three other big nasties and a party bus of Berzerkers coming down the field.
It's not competetive, but it works perfectly fine in a more relaxed setting.
Anyone have thoughts on this Engine Rush list? My biggest hesitation is the Defilers....is the S16 (for killing Knights) worth taking them? I'm also considering fitting a Sorcerer in, who sit back and put Miasma on the Levi, for a -2 with the Apostle's prayer.
Since no one can take advantage of legion traits (no infantry!), I made the Leviathan Purge so he can still shoot at things that get tied up. Everyone else is World Eaters bc I think the strat is useful and the Discordant's aura only affects the same legion.
Decimators have some chaff-clearing guns to rush forward and remove some screens before the big boys get there.
EVERYTHING in this list (except for the Levi) will benefit from Epidemius's tally. I really thought about making a DP fit in there, but decided I don't need it bc after the second kill, everyone gets reroll 1's anyhow. My thought is to shoot each butcher array at separate Cultist/Guard units, kill 6-8 of them, and then finish off each unit with a Decimator each, getting me those two easy kills on T1.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I for one like the idea of adding a Lord Discordant to my Daemons. I already run a double Bloodthirster list with a Keeper of Secrets thrown in to boot, so having yet more target saturation for big guns while giving me the option to get rotor cannon Havocs to clear chaff sounds great. Sure, he's not protected by Character status, but he's plenty tanky for his points, especially when there's three other big nasties and a party bus of Berzerkers coming down the field.
It's not competetive, but it works perfectly fine in a more relaxed setting.
I think if you run a list with big mele threats and deepstrike threats then you get the best of both worlds as your opponent will want to spread out to deny deepstrike but also want to ball up in a coner to prevent being bum rushed by bezerkers and lord discordants.
I think some bloodletter bombs/warp talons with a soulforged pack of lord discordants and defilers/maulerfields wouod be hard to play against.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Elric Greywolf wrote: Anyone have thoughts on this Engine Rush list? My biggest hesitation is the Defilers....is the S16 (for killing Knights) worth taking them?
I'm also considering swapping the Hellwright for a Sorcerer, who sit back and put Miasma on the Levi.
Since no one can take advantage of legion traits (no infantry!), I made the Leviathan Purge so he can still shoot at things that get tied up. Hellwright has the +3" aura so any of my engines in 9" get an extra attack. He also has a smaller base than the Discordant, so thought he'd need the extra a bit more.
Everyone else is Word Bearers bc I think the trait and strat are both very useful and the Discordant's aura only affects the same legion.
Decimators have some chaff-clearing guns so that
EVERYTHING in this list (except for the Levi) will benefit from Epidemius's tally. I really thought about making a DP fit in there, but decided I don't need it bc after the second kill, everyone gets reroll 1's anyhow.
My thought is to shoot each butcher array at separate Cultist/Guard units, kill 6-8 of them, and then finish off each unit with a Decimator each, getting me those two easy kills on T1.
I like it, lots of different threats and nice synergy. I'd try to fit in a tree in the list too. It's just too useful to get free advance and charge. Maybe just trim to on 30 man blob of plaguebearers to make it fit?
I suspect PURGE gunner units are going to become special and perhaps something of a gatekeeper. The utility they add to our tarpits - and remove from enemy ones - is really growing on me. Fiends of Slaanesh clamping their Land Raider? Put the boot in. Termagants enveloping your Contemptor? Hose them. Screening unit holding your Murder SwLord on Steed away from his prey? Sweep them away. Bloodletter bomb prevented from charging by their last surviving victim spending 2CP to not run away? Finish them. A spearhead with Chainhacovs, Lashavocs, and Oblits could work wonders. Maybe even make it a Devbat.
Roknar wrote: Huh, could this work? Think of it as a sort of 40k moritat.
Jump pack Black legion lord with black clad brute: 4+ on a charge to deal d3 mortal wounds.(and extra strength but who cares)
Chiropteran Wings: 4+ in the movement and charge phase when moving over stuff, d3 mortal wounds.
Pistol for daemon shells, d3 mortal wounds
Maybe add a thunderhammer for good measure, or a plasma pistol for obvious reasons
Maneuvering in such a way that you can actually shoot the character might be luck, but charging/ flying past it should be much more manageable.
That alone could generate 3d3 MW, which would be an average of 6 wounds with no saves regardless of toughness.
Enough to kill most characters in a very cheap package. And you can fall back +charge again for another 2d3 MW due to the BL stratagem, though I doubt that need would come up.
And it doesn't rely on other characters being around.
Coming back to this, this would be better on a sorcerer, now you can smite and infernal gaze for an additional 2d3 mortal wounds, potentially 6 d3 mortal wounds
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I for one like the idea of adding a Lord Discordant to my Daemons. I already run a double Bloodthirster list with a Keeper of Secrets thrown in to boot, so having yet more target saturation for big guns while giving me the option to get rotor cannon Havocs to clear chaff sounds great. Sure, he's not protected by Character status, but he's plenty tanky for his points, especially when there's three other big nasties and a party bus of Berzerkers coming down the field.
It's not competetive, but it works perfectly fine in a more relaxed setting.
I think if you run a list with big mele threats and deepstrike threats then you get the best of both worlds as your opponent will want to spread out to deny deepstrike but also want to ball up in a coner to prevent being bum rushed by bezerkers and lord discordants.
I think some bloodletter bombs/warp talons with a soulforged pack of lord discordants and defilers/maulerfields wouod be hard to play against.
I'm running Khorne/Slaanesh Daemons allied to World Eaters, so I've got a bunch of Daemonettes running across the board as well, so there's a lot of stuff that has to die very quickly. Granted, Daemonettes die like slime, but they're buying time anyway.
Roknar wrote: Huh, could this work? Think of it as a sort of 40k moritat.
Jump pack Black legion lord with black clad brute: 4+ on a charge to deal d3 mortal wounds.(and extra strength but who cares)
Chiropteran Wings: 4+ in the movement and charge phase when moving over stuff, d3 mortal wounds.
Pistol for daemon shells, d3 mortal wounds
Maybe add a thunderhammer for good measure, or a plasma pistol for obvious reasons
Maneuvering in such a way that you can actually shoot the character might be luck, but charging/ flying past it should be much more manageable.
That alone could generate 3d3 MW, which would be an average of 6 wounds with no saves regardless of toughness.
Enough to kill most characters in a very cheap package. And you can fall back +charge again for another 2d3 MW due to the BL stratagem, though I doubt that need would come up.
And it doesn't rely on other characters being around.
Coming back to this, this would be better on a sorcerer, now you can smite and infernal gaze for an additional 2d3 mortal wounds, potentially 6 d3 mortal wounds
This doesn’t sound bad at all if the Sorcerer is given BCB via Council of Traitors. Elsewhere, your CL/DP/AtD Warlord is not dying, and a Dark Apostle is laying down a defensive buff and using Trusted War leader to offset the CP investment in your disposable guided MW missile.
What spells to give this fiendish flyboy? Infernal Gaze and Gift of Chaos might be unusually viable, here.
I'm running Khorne/Slaanesh Daemons allied to World Eaters, so I've got a bunch of Daemonettes running across the board as well, so there's a lot of stuff that has to die very quickly. Granted, Daemonettes die like slime, but they're buying time anyway.
If they're shooting at your deamonettes then theyre not shooting at your party buses!
I've been trying out world eater zerker rush with warp talons and khorne daemons. Seems to work well enough!
I'm not sure I've caught it, where are Chiropteran Wings from?
Also, do we yet know the specifics of the Lord Discordant base size? I'm trying to test out the viability of converting a heldrake near the ground to serve as a kitbashed mount ^.^
drakerocket wrote: I'm not sure I've caught it, where are Chiropteran Wings from?
Also, do we yet know the specifics of the Lord Discordant base size? I'm trying to test out the viability of converting a heldrake near the ground to serve as a kitbashed mount ^.^
Btw,
If you had the spare points and needed a footslogging distraction.. would you take as red corsairs.. a unit of chosen with chain axes and combi-bolters with power axe on the champ or a unit of khorne berzerkers with chain axes and sword with power axe on champ and a icon of wrath? Zerkers are for sure better in melee for fight twice, but chosen with combi-bolters will contribute also in the shooting phase. Both are glasscannon units without a ride.. RC chapter tactics is nice for both.. Wondering here which to distraction to build. I think you can make nice looking zerkers from the new CSM box..
Xirax wrote: Btw,
If you had the spare points and needed a footslogging distraction.. would you take as red corsairs.. a unit of chosen with chain axes and combi-bolters with power axe on the champ or a unit of khorne berzerkers with chain axes and sword with power axe on champ and a icon of wrath? Zerkers are for sure better in melee for fight twice, but chosen with combi-bolters will contribute also in the shooting phase. Both are glasscannon units without a ride.. RC chapter tactics is nice for both.. Wondering here which to distraction to build. I think you can make nice looking zerkers from the new CSM box..
The Chosen cost less, and whilst they’re footslogging they can kick out 10-20 shots - which yields some extra value back, and also makes them a nuisance that brings pressure to bear and provokes return fire before they get within close range. The Berzerkers can be ignored until they get close, and have to brave Overwatch to be a menace worth worrying about.
The difference between the Chosen and the Berzerkers is close to the difference between the Berzerkers and an Obliterator. Or a Havoc squad with autocannons or heavy bolters.
Three bikers could also come in at the Chosen’s price point. Their mobility gives them a very different ability to draw aggro?
Xirax wrote: Btw,
If you had the spare points and needed a footslogging distraction.. would you take as red corsairs.. a unit of chosen with chain axes and combi-bolters with power axe on the champ or a unit of khorne berzerkers with chain axes and sword with power axe on champ and a icon of wrath? Zerkers are for sure better in melee for fight twice, but chosen with combi-bolters will contribute also in the shooting phase. Both are glasscannon units without a ride.. RC chapter tactics is nice for both.. Wondering here which to distraction to build. I think you can make nice looking zerkers from the new CSM box..
The Chosen cost less, and whilst they’re footslogging they can kick out 10-20 shots - which yields some extra value back, and also makes them a nuisance that brings pressure to bear and provokes return fire before they get within close range. The Berzerkers can be ignored until they get close, and have to brave Overwatch to be a menace worth worrying about.
The difference between the Chosen and the Berzerkers is close to the difference between the Berzerkers and an Obliterator. Or a Havoc squad with autocannons or heavy bolters.
Three bikers could also come in at the Chosen’s price point. Their mobility gives them a very different ability to draw aggro?
Terminators do this better. Double the cost, but ~4x the durability (aka double the durability per point vs most weapons), less worry about morale issues, deepstrike, and all your shots at 24". The Chosen do get more bolter shots per point, but bolters are really inefficient, so they are easy to ignore. The terminators can throw in a couple combi-plasmas and be a serious thread if they close in, and provide more durable character shields.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Terminators do this better. Double the cost, but ~4x the durability (aka double the durability per point vs most weapons), less worry about morale issues, deepstrike, and all your shots at 24". The Chosen do get more bolter shots per point, but bolters are really inefficient, so they are easy to ignore. The terminators can throw in a couple combi-plasmas and be a serious thread if they close in, and provide more durable character shields.
Not saying this is optimal, but Chosen can now take 4 Thunderhammers per squad. Terminators cannot.
Thinking some whacked out Khorne list is seeking this unit.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Terminators do this better. Double the cost, but ~4x the durability (aka double the durability per point vs most weapons), less worry about morale issues, deepstrike, and all your shots at 24". The Chosen do get more bolter shots per point, but bolters are really inefficient, so they are easy to ignore. The terminators can throw in a couple combi-plasmas and be a serious thread if they close in, and provide more durable character shields.
Not saying this is optimal, but Chosen can now take 4 Thunderhammers per squad. Terminators cannot.
Thinking some whacked out Khorne list is seeking this unit.
If Marine statline was good, sure. But berzerkers are probably better still. Or just taking an equivalent number of points of daemon princes or, well, anything with D2. MeQs just die way too easily. Berzerkers are at least decently cheap.
Elric Greywolf wrote: Anyone have thoughts on this Engine Rush list? My biggest hesitation is the Defilers....is the S16 (for killing Knights) worth taking them?
I'm also considering fitting a Sorcerer in, who sit back and put Miasma on the Levi, for a -2 with the Apostle's prayer.
Since no one can take advantage of legion traits (no infantry!), I made the Leviathan Purge so he can still shoot at things that get tied up.
Everyone else is World Eaters bc I think the strat is useful and the Discordant's aura only affects the same legion.
Decimators have some chaff-clearing guns to rush forward and remove some screens before the big boys get there.
EVERYTHING in this list (except for the Levi) will benefit from Epidemius's tally. I really thought about making a DP fit in there, but decided I don't need it bc after the second kill, everyone gets reroll 1's anyhow.
My thought is to shoot each butcher array at separate Cultist/Guard units, kill 6-8 of them, and then finish off each unit with a Decimator each, getting me those two easy kills on T1.
Pretty sure world eaters are required to take the mark of khorne.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Terminators do this better. Double the cost, but ~4x the durability (aka double the durability per point vs most weapons), less worry about morale issues, deepstrike, and all your shots at 24". The Chosen do get more bolter shots per point, but bolters are really inefficient, so they are easy to ignore. The terminators can throw in a couple combi-plasmas and be a serious thread if they close in, and provide more durable character shields.
Not saying this is optimal, but Chosen can now take 4 Thunderhammers per squad. Terminators cannot.
Thinking some whacked out Khorne list is seeking this unit.
The sad thing is a single khorne berserker champion with PF is almost as threatening as all 4 of those TH chosen. Especially if he's world eaters. Thunder hammer chosen just seem like a trap. They cost what, 34 a pop? So a min unit is 150, for 10 more points I get our shiny new lord discordant. I like the new wargear option, but I still wince at the idea of putting such gear on 1 wound marines.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Terminators do this better. Double the cost, but ~4x the durability (aka double the durability per point vs most weapons), less worry about morale issues, deepstrike, and all your shots at 24". The Chosen do get more bolter shots per point, but bolters are really inefficient, so they are easy to ignore. The terminators can throw in a couple combi-plasmas and be a serious thread if they close in, and provide more durable character shields.
Not saying this is optimal, but Chosen can now take 4 Thunderhammers per squad. Terminators cannot.
Thinking some whacked out Khorne list is seeking this unit.
If Marine statline was good, sure. But berzerkers are probably better still. Or just taking an equivalent number of points of daemon princes or, well, anything with D2. MeQs just die way too easily. Berzerkers are at least decently cheap.
there's a scary thought, put a thunderhammer on the bezekrer champion
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Terminators do this better. Double the cost, but ~4x the durability (aka double the durability per point vs most weapons), less worry about morale issues, deepstrike, and all your shots at 24". The Chosen do get more bolter shots per point, but bolters are really inefficient, so they are easy to ignore. The terminators can throw in a couple combi-plasmas and be a serious thread if they close in, and provide more durable character shields.
Not saying this is optimal, but Chosen can now take 4 Thunderhammers per squad. Terminators cannot.
Thinking some whacked out Khorne list is seeking this unit.
If Marine statline was good, sure. But berzerkers are probably better still. Or just taking an equivalent number of points of daemon princes or, well, anything with D2. MeQs just die way too easily. Berzerkers are at least decently cheap.
there's a scary thought, put a thunderhammer on the bezekrer champion
I wish we could, however - like the Terminators - his power weapons come from a list other than the melee weapons list. Basically, only Chosen and (some) actual characters may take a TH.
Well, world eaters chosen get 3 attacks a model on their thunderhammer... And the champion gets 4 attacks on the thunderhammer. Its not bad. And actually, the whole squad including the champion can take thunder hammers, not just 4. I remember I did some calculations a few pages back. A WE chosen squad with thunder hammers with some support from Kharn and an exaled champion can take down a castellan or a knight in one turn. Basically smash it into pieces before it can interrupt and strike back.
I think a berserker squad would have problems doing the same thing, even with Kharn and an exalted champion as support. I didn't do the math on the berserker squad, but I have actually tried this before. Usually opponent spends the 2 CP, interrupts and mashes my zerkers into pulp before they even get to attack a second time, unless there are multiple charges going off everywhere. Even then, I haven't actually ever managed to bring a full HP knight down with a zerker attack yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You know, there was a lot of compliants about the Havocs new kit only having just one chain cannon. But after making a lot of different lists, I ended up not having a havocs squad with 4 chain cannon guns most of the time.
The reason is that in the end, its still just 5 models with 1W each. And given how dangerous chain cannons are against chaff, any good opponent will shoot everything he has against that havoc squad if it is in the field. You can't always assume you are going first. And a good opponent who goes second can counter deploy against you, put his chaff out of line of sight or out of range on turn 1, and then kill off your havocs.
I instead end up making lists where I have one or maybe two chain cannons in a huge squad of 20 CSM. So, yeah, you want to kill that chain cannon guy, you kill off 18 or 19 normal CSM first. (which is no trival feat).
If I really wanted to have havoc squads, I end up making havoc squads with 4 autocannons or even 4 heavy bolters. Because of that strategem punishing volley (it lets you shoot once after your enemy has moved in the first turn if you don't get to go first). Chain cannons are too short range to gaurantee good targets when you use that strategem. But autocannons and even heavy bolters will likely gaurantee you some good targets.
If I really wanted to have 3 havoc squads. I honestly would consider putting just 1 chain cannon, and then fill the other three with autocannons or heavy bolters or a mix. So, its super cheap, and again, if they want to get at the chain cannon guy, they at least have to go through 4 havoc guys first.
So what about you guys? Are you all still firmly in the 4 chain cannon havoc squad camp?
Not much mention of Alpha Legion yet since the new drops. But chain havocs are a perfect benefactor of their play style, especially since now even slaaneshi units can get to -2.
I like chain cannons hidden in tac squads, but then again I like auto cannons and even lascannons done the same. But none of them compare to the concentrated fire of havocs. 64 shots buffed to high hell isn't really comparable to the annoyance that one represents in a tac squad. So yeah, I'm still firmly in the chain havoc camp.
grouchoben wrote: Not much mention of Alpha Legion yet since the new drops. But chain havocs are a perfect benefactor of their play style, especially since now even slaaneshi units can get to -2.
May i ask how the -2 slaanesh AL Havocs is achieved? Thanks
avedominusnox wrote: He mentioned even slaaneshi units and i was curious about that..
I took that to mean previously it was only possible with Nurgle via their spell but now being able to do it on the far shootier Slaanesh version is powerful.
avedominusnox wrote: He mentioned even slaaneshi units and i was curious about that..
I took that to mean previously it was only possible with Nurgle via their spell but now being able to do it on the far shootier Slaanesh version is powerful.
What spell? Miasma is only for daemon units. But I get your point sure. I will soon tryout using the noctilith.. I think it will be quite useful with 3x10 CSM with double lascannons and 3x5 reaper havocs. Red Corsair CSM and AL havocs. Or maybe all AL for maximum penalties?
avedominusnox wrote: He mentioned even slaaneshi units and i was curious about that..
I took that to mean previously it was only possible with Nurgle via their spell but now being able to do it on the far shootier Slaanesh version is powerful.
What spell? Miasma is only for daemon units. But I get your point sure. I will soon tryout using the noctilith.. I think it will be quite useful with 3x10 CSM with double lascannons and 3x5 reaper havocs. Red Corsair CSM and AL havocs. Or maybe all AL for maximum penalties?
10 CSM with 2 lascannons are more expensive than a predator with 4 lascannons. Just saying.
avedominusnox wrote: He mentioned even slaaneshi units and i was curious about that..
I took that to mean previously it was only possible with Nurgle via their spell but now being able to do it on the far shootier Slaanesh version is powerful.
What spell? Miasma is only for daemon units. But I get your point sure. I will soon tryout using the noctilith.. I think it will be quite useful with 3x10 CSM with double lascannons and 3x5 reaper havocs. Red Corsair CSM and AL havocs. Or maybe all AL for maximum penalties?
10 CSM with 2 lascannons are more expensive than a predator with 4 lascannons. Just saying.
True. But you have to take 3 troop choices in a battalion anyway. So might as well make those troop choices useful. Especially now since you can bring them back at 3CP for red corsairs. And a predator tank doesn't come with 16 bolter shots at 24 inches (bolter discipline).
avedominusnox wrote: He mentioned even slaaneshi units and i was curious about that..
I took that to mean previously it was only possible with Nurgle via their spell but now being able to do it on the far shootier Slaanesh version is powerful.
What spell? Miasma is only for daemon units. But I get your point sure. I will soon tryout using the noctilith.. I think it will be quite useful with 3x10 CSM with double lascannons and 3x5 reaper havocs. Red Corsair CSM and AL havocs. Or maybe all AL for maximum penalties?
10 CSM with 2 lascannons are more expensive than a predator with 4 lascannons. Just saying.
It’s not the straight cost of 10 with LC compared to a las predator. It’s the battalion giving CPs Filled with Red corsair CSM.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, world eaters chosen get 3 attacks a model on their thunderhammer... And the champion gets 4 attacks on the thunderhammer. Its not bad. And actually, the whole squad including the champion can take thunder hammers, not just 4. I remember I did some calculations a few pages back. A WE chosen squad with thunder hammers with some support from Kharn and an exaled champion can take down a castellan or a knight in one turn. Basically smash it into pieces before it can interrupt and strike back.
Thunderhammers appear on the melee weapons list.
Unless something changed in the new Codex, the Chosen Champion does not have access to the melee weapons list. So only 4 Chosen would be able to take Thunderhammers.
You can give all of them a plasma pistol. That's a pretty nice unit for ~160 points, considering they are infantry and have the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword. Most Stratagems and psychic powers would apply.
Eh, its a point sink for a unit that would need serious protection buffs to make it survive long enough to get into combat. If your looking for a cc answer to a knight the flawless host dp is a better and cheaper answer.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, world eaters chosen get 3 attacks a model on their thunderhammer... And the champion gets 4 attacks on the thunderhammer. Its not bad. And actually, the whole squad including the champion can take thunder hammers, not just 4. I remember I did some calculations a few pages back. A WE chosen squad with thunder hammers with some support from Kharn and an exaled champion can take down a castellan or a knight in one turn. Basically smash it into pieces before it can interrupt and strike back.
Thunderhammers appear on the melee weapons list.
Unless something changed in the new Codex, the Chosen Champion does not have access to the melee weapons list. So only 4 Chosen would be able to take Thunderhammers.
You can give all of them a plasma pistol. That's a pretty nice unit for ~160 points, considering they are infantry and have the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword. Most Stratagems and psychic powers would apply.
The Champion can choose to either take a Melee Weapon, *or* up to two Champion Equipment.
So, it’s thunder hammer & boltgun & bolt pistol, or any other power/chain weapon & any pistol or combi-weapon.
Weirdly restrictive. Can’t take a plasma pistol or combi weapon with a thunder hammer. I guess only commanders can afford both
Edit: but four of the squad members can take PP+TH. Or, for some reason, LC+CS.
Still trying to get oblits to fit into a list i like... but at 345 theyre so expensive. They play like Blightlords (minus the melee and large footprint) and can control a table quarter solo. But i have a hard time finding what else to bring. Anyone cracked this nut yet?
Zid wrote: Still trying to get oblits to fit into a list i like... but at 345 theyre so expensive. They play like Blightlords (minus the melee and large footprint) and can control a table quarter solo. But i have a hard time finding what else to bring. Anyone cracked this nut yet?
Bring the nurgle daemon tree. Now your guys have an armor save of 0+. They save lascannon shots on 3+. They save all other stuff on 2+.
Zid wrote: Still trying to get oblits to fit into a list i like... but at 345 theyre so expensive. They play like Blightlords (minus the melee and large footprint) and can control a table quarter solo. But i have a hard time finding what else to bring. Anyone cracked this nut yet?
I've had similar list making problems. I could go all in and combine a unit of three with a jump pack sorcerer to cast prescience on the oblits and death hex on my target. That whole combo when buffed with VotLW and endless cacophony will make any big target in one round. But, as obvious, it is likely only go be useful against one target before it gets destroyed itself.
Other than a deathball drop they are just too pricey at 115 to bring a few as toolbox units.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, world eaters chosen get 3 attacks a model on their thunderhammer... And the champion gets 4 attacks on the thunderhammer. Its not bad. And actually, the whole squad including the champion can take thunder hammers, not just 4. I remember I did some calculations a few pages back. A WE chosen squad with thunder hammers with some support from Kharn and an exaled champion can take down a castellan or a knight in one turn. Basically smash it into pieces before it can interrupt and strike back.
Thunderhammers appear on the melee weapons list.
Unless something changed in the new Codex, the Chosen Champion does not have access to the melee weapons list. So only 4 Chosen would be able to take Thunderhammers.
You can give all of them a plasma pistol. That's a pretty nice unit for ~160 points, considering they are infantry and have the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword. Most Stratagems and psychic powers would apply.
The Champion can choose to either take a Melee Weapon, *or* up to two Champion Equipment.
So, it’s thunder hammer & boltgun & bolt pistol, or any other power/chain weapon & any pistol or combi-weapon.
Weirdly restrictive. Can’t take a plasma pistol or combi weapon with a thunder hammer. I guess only commanders can afford both
Edit: but four of the squad members can take PP+TH. Or, for some reason, LC+CS.
Interesting. I am looking at the original 8th edition Codex. Did this change in v II, or was it from a FAQ, or was it from something else?
The book I have says it would be legal to have a Thunderhammer and plasma pistol on the Chosen, and the Champ could take a combi-weapon and any melee weapon (except the hammer.)
Zid wrote: Still trying to get oblits to fit into a list i like... but at 345 theyre so expensive. They play like Blightlords (minus the melee and large footprint) and can control a table quarter solo. But i have a hard time finding what else to bring. Anyone cracked this nut yet?
3 oblits with the gnarls tree, Mark Of Nurgle, Alpha Legion, With a Nurgle Sorcerer for Miasma and your oblits have an amazing save, and -2 to be hit. Throw a DA inthere for another -1 to be hit and they are set against anything out of close combat.
And so you do not feel like you are wasting points, you can put a unit of Havocs next to the tree as well. Adding more protection. Even a Contemptor Dread for extra shooting.
Thunder Hammer Chosen just won't be worth it. I play Thunder Hammer Command Squads with my Black Templars, and they die like slime despite the 3++ from the Storm Shield and my 5++ FNP stratagem, and I've got better offense than Chosen as well.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, world eaters chosen get 3 attacks a model on their thunderhammer... And the champion gets 4 attacks on the thunderhammer. Its not bad. And actually, the whole squad including the champion can take thunder hammers, not just 4. I remember I did some calculations a few pages back. A WE chosen squad with thunder hammers with some support from Kharn and an exaled champion can take down a castellan or a knight in one turn. Basically smash it into pieces before it can interrupt and strike back.
Thunderhammers appear on the melee weapons list.
Unless something changed in the new Codex, the Chosen Champion does not have access to the melee weapons list. So only 4 Chosen would be able to take Thunderhammers.
You can give all of them a plasma pistol. That's a pretty nice unit for ~160 points, considering they are infantry and have the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword. Most Stratagems and psychic powers would apply.
The Champion can choose to either take a Melee Weapon, *or* up to two Champion Equipment.
So, it’s thunder hammer & boltgun & bolt pistol, or any other power/chain weapon & any pistol or combi-weapon.
Weirdly restrictive. Can’t take a plasma pistol or combi weapon with a thunder hammer. I guess only commanders can afford both
Edit: but four of the squad members can take PP+TH. Or, for some reason, LC+CS.
Interesting. I am looking at the original 8th edition Codex. Did this change in v II, or was it from a FAQ, or was it from something else?
The book I have says it would be legal to have a Thunderhammer and plasma pistol on the Chosen, and the Champ could take a combi-weapon and any melee weapon (except the hammer.)
The melee weapon entry is separate from the otheroptions, it specifally says that any chosen can take one item from the melee weapons list. This was indeed changed.
So you can have a unit of 10 thunderhammers, which is still cheaper than the knight they are going to down without needing support. enough to fit in a transport even.
They WILL kill a knight a turn, they also WILL die to a man right after.
of course even with a transport, getting them into combat with said knight is hardly reliable. Hilarious if they do though lol At least assuming WE or Black legion who both get 3 attacks each.
But then, what are our other options of killing a knight. There isn't much that can reliably kill a knight a turn, you always rely on stuff that can fail or be interupted, like deathhex.
In theory you could warptime a sorcerer into range for death hex turn one and acerberus landraider could then oneshot a knight...not gonna happen.
To people suggesting nurgle obits - they only put out 18 shots, for around 400pts investment. Compare that to the 24 shots oldblits put out with cacophony for 195pts. You're suggesting paying twice the amount for 2/3 of the output, that doesn't make sense.
The way they're priced, they're feasible as slaaneshi or not at all, as far as I can see.
I have had quite a bit of success running new oblits as nurgle w/ the tree. The major difference between them and slaanesh variation is deployment and useage. Going nurgle with the tree means you can start on the table and are hard to kill between the tree putting them at 0+ save and the option to heal wounds using the nurgle strat.
Slaanesh however is drop in, blast away, then in turn get shot off the table. They are a very effective tool when your opponent shows up with a squad of hellblasters in a repulser.
Personally i like the survival over the nuke crew.
If your CP battery is a Nurgle Daemons battalion, then Nurgle Oblits easily gain +1 damage on a 6 to wound, plus either a heal spell or Miasma without a Sorcerer.
If they’re part of an Epidemius list, then their contribution against hard targets easily approaches the old EC business.
On the topic of Epidemius - he’s been characterised as a ‘win amplifier’ who works when you army’s winning anyway. I don’t agree with that - he brings a couple of tricks:
- formidable scarecrow; most deep striking units will want to be pretty clear of him
- with just two boosts, he effectively gives you army-wide Daemon Prince coverage, enabling your DPs to do risky and suicidal attacks after helping your Killy gunners to get those early kills in the bank
- can draw a lot of aggro; your opponent knows that he provides a scaling buff and may well prioritise a risky decapitation
Azuza001 wrote: I have had quite a bit of success running new oblits as nurgle w/ the tree. The major difference between them and slaanesh variation is deployment and useage. Going nurgle with the tree means you can start on the table and are hard to kill between the tree putting them at 0+ save and the option to heal wounds using the nurgle strat.
Slaanesh however is drop in, blast away, then in turn get shot off the table. They are a very effective tool when your opponent shows up with a squad of hellblasters in a repulser.
Personally i like the survival over the nuke crew.
See this is pretty valid overall, and makes me kinda sold on starting them on the field versus deep strike. But you also have the option to DS the tree with them, and you arent forced to fuel them with Cacophony. However, you are eating a detachment to make it happen, which means the two detachments have to function well enough; which is my issue.
Being as i want to run them with either prescience, or they need to be purge, to be self sufficient for the most part. If i want prescience i feel like 1k sons would be wanted, to guarentee i can get it off when needed. If you go the tree route, you cut a lot from their killing power, and alpha legion doesnt lend itself well to some other stuff i might want to run in the detachment. Also, there are many things that can circumvent the -1 hit in many ways. Also, with FNP from a slaanesh sorcerer they are functionally more survivable in cover with that, and you could still do alpha legion and not eat a detachment.
I dont know, its really hard, i have three and i have played them a few games and really enjoy them, im just having trouble finding a list that clicks with them. Also, i feel like i would want black legion to cut back on how many CP these guys can eat.
On the topic of killing knights though, what are the opinions on a kharybdis?
You're likely going to have a sorcerer either way and if you warptime it, it could assault turn one and take a sizeable chunk out of a knight while still using its pistol nova, which is great vs just about anything for no other reason than sheer amount of hits..
I don't see any restriction to flying over stuff during a charge to bypass any screening units.
And then fill it with whatever you like for turn 2, even empty it will do some work if it's still alive.
**Edit**
You could also mark it nurgle and start an apostle on the board to give it a -2 to hit (at least -1 even on the enemy turn), that should definitely keep it alive, although I dislike putting an apostle into vehicles as you lose his buff for at least 2 rounds.
I have the new havocs and they indeed are on 40mm bases. They are about the same height as the new CSMs but they are noticably beefier and their weapons are huge.
I could see a list being good focused around multiple nurgle alpha legion oblit squads, buffed to the 9s with a tree to focus around. +1 damage on 6s, getting -2 to hit on all 3 squads with strategems, a priest, and psychic powers and a 0+ armor save with plague bearers to hide behind. Another Priest for +1 to hit, and cheap reroll 1s lord in the blob, or a master of possession with buffs could make the ~1000 points of oblits worth it. 54 buffed oblit shots would be nothing to sneeze at with like 60-90 plague bearers performing all of your board control. I haven't exactly pointed it out, but I feel like it could be done.
Unless you come across Imperial Fist Hellblasters, then you would just disappear.
I am new to Chaos and not a real experienced 8th edition player so I am hoping you can help me out with some questions on building a list. With the release of new models I just want to build a semi competitive force with the models I like.
So question, do you just need 1 keyword to use a stratagem or ability? For instance, Raptors are Infantry (along with Jump Pack) as well as Greater Possessed (along with daemon) so does that mean they benefit from Legion Traits? Ie Renegade Chapters Advance and Charge?
Chaos Marks don't explicitly give you anything anymore correct? Like if you mark a unit of chaos space marines with nurgle, they dont get +1 toughness, it just allows them to make sure of stratagems or spells that have the nurgle key word?
It seems very complicated trying to mix and match all your units to different marks/chapters etc. So with all that in mind, these are my initial models/thoughts-
Spearhead Detachment- Make them a Soulforged Pack. I wont be using either Lord Discordant as a Warlord as they are going to die too easy, however, I can still make use of the Infernal Engines Stratagem. I have no idea what mark to give these guys as I dont know what would benefit them.
2 Lord Discordant
2 Venom Crawlers
1 Soul Grinder
As far as the rest, I was thinking Red Corsairs with
3x 5 CSM with rotor cannon- I was thinking of bumping one unit to 15 and having 2 smaller squads of 5
1 unit of havocs with lascannons
1 unit of 3 oblits
2 Greater Possessed. I really like these guys running alongside the daemon engines as they can buff the venom crawlers (and their weapons would make use of the +1 str) I was thinking I would add maybe 2 more.
Then I am kind stuck, I was thinking of adding in a jump pack lord (or sorcerer) and a few units of raptors equipped with plasmaguns.
So can you take a battalion, then use units within that battalion to make a devastation battery? Or are the units that form the devastation battery inclusive?
For that matter, can you take 2 specialist detachments, ie can I have my Soulforged Pack and a Devastation Batter? How many total detachments can you have in an army, including your specialist detachments at 2k?
urzaplanewalker wrote: I could see a list being good focused around multiple nurgle alpha legion oblit squads, buffed to the 9s with a tree to focus around. +1 damage on 6s, getting -2 to hit on all 3 squads with strategems, a priest, and psychic powers and a 0+ armor save with plague bearers to hide behind. Another Priest for +1 to hit, and cheap reroll 1s lord in the blob, or a master of possession with buffs could make the ~1000 points of oblits worth it. 54 buffed oblit shots would be nothing to sneeze at with like 60-90 plague bearers performing all of your board control. I haven't exactly pointed it out, but I feel like it could be done.
Unless you come across Imperial Fist Hellblasters, then you would just disappear.
You can fit 8 oblits (presuming that you're counting them as 115 points). 52 plaguebearers, MOP, sorcerer, 3x5 csm, herald, bilepiper, tree and 3x nurglings in a 2000 point list.
Would be difficult to know where to position the tree though. 24" from near a centre is not bad (especially moving 7" out. But if you get second turn and opponent drops 30 boyz round tree it's going to be hard work!
I am new to Chaos and not a real experienced 8th edition player so I am hoping you can help me out with some questions on building a list. With the release of new models I just want to build a semi competitive force with the models I like.
Spoiler:
So question, do you just need 1 keyword to use a stratagem or ability? For instance, Raptors are Infantry (along with Jump Pack) as well as Greater Possessed (along with daemon) so does that mean they benefit from Legion Traits? Ie Renegade Chapters Advance and Charge?
Chaos Marks don't explicitly give you anything anymore correct? Like if you mark a unit of chaos space marines with nurgle, they dont get +1 toughness, it just allows them to make sure of stratagems or spells that have the nurgle key word?
It seems very complicated trying to mix and match all your units to different marks/chapters etc. So with all that in mind, these are my initial models/thoughts-
Spearhead Detachment- Make them a Soulforged Pack. I wont be using either Lord Discordant as a Warlord as they are going to die too easy, however, I can still make use of the Infernal Engines Stratagem. I have no idea what mark to give these guys as I dont know what would benefit them.
2 Lord Discordant
2 Venom Crawlers
1 Soul Grinder
As far as the rest, I was thinking Red Corsairs with
3x 5 CSM with rotor cannon- I was thinking of bumping one unit to 15 and having 2 smaller squads of 5
1 unit of havocs with lascannons
1 unit of 3 oblits
2 Greater Possessed. I really like these guys running alongside the daemon engines as they can buff the venom crawlers (and their weapons would make use of the +1 str) I was thinking I would add maybe 2 more.
Then I am kind stuck, I was thinking of adding in a jump pack lord (or sorcerer) and a few units of raptors equipped with plasmaguns.
So can you take a battalion, then use units within that battalion to make a devastation battery? Or are the units that form the devastation battery inclusive?
For that matter, can you take 2 specialist detachments, ie can I have my Soulforged Pack and a Devastation Batter? How many total detachments can you have in an army, including your specialist detachments at 2k?
Any advice is appreciated.
First off, welcome to the darkness. It only costs your soul (no refunds!).
It can get complicated, yes. But if you were able to keep abreast of the rules in previous editions, you'll find it hasn't really become more difficult.
For the stratagems, yes simply having the keywords required by the stratagem is enough.
Your spearhead detachment as is looks fun, but it doesn't meet the matched play requirements - you need all units to share a faction keyword but CHAOS alone doesn't count. It needs to be HERETIC ASTARTES or DAEMONS. Perhaps you can swap the Soul Grinder for a Defiler?
Your Red Corsairs would already make a battalion detachment as is, provided you add two HQ choices. Together with your spearhead, you'd get 12 command points, which is pretty decent. As to HQs, a Daemon Prince or a Chaos Lord with jump pack to run with the daemon engines for those re-roll 1s would be good and maybe a Sorcerer for some buffs?
Specialist detachments aren't a separate thing. You pick one of your army's detachments, spend 1 CP and turn that detachment into specialists. For example, your spearhead could be turned into a Soulforged Pack for 1 CP to give all the DAEMON ENGINE units the keyword SOULFORGED PACK. That way, you can use the corresponding strategems on them (but I guess, you understood that already). But you can't also make the detachment a different kind of specialists - you choose one type and that's what that detachment becomes. If you want more specialists, you need to spend 1 CP on a different detachment.
The Greater Possessed are sweet, I totally love them. Remember though that they need to share the same <LEGION> and <MARK OF CHAOS> keywords with the daemons you want them to buff.
Snugiraffe wrote: Your spearhead detachment as is looks fun, but it doesn't meet the matched play requirements - you need all units to share a faction keyword but CHAOS alone doesn't count. It needs to be HERETIC ASTARTES or DAEMONS. Perhaps you can swap the Soul Grinder for a Defiler?
Just a quick note on something I was misunderstanding until a couple of days ago too.
If you give all the csm units the same mark of chaos as the soulgrunder you could field them in a Khorne, Nurgle, Slanesh or Tzeentch detachment.
Snugiraffe,
Thanks for the info, I'm sorry, I meant Defiler not Soul Grinder, so that detachment should be fine.
What do you think of raptors?
I imagine those 5 demon engines, jump pack lord and Greater Possessed running at an opponent and supporting them with the Oblits, Havocs, and Raptors. Meanwhile the marines take the objectives and the 15 man blob makes for centerfield and double taps their bolters.
Would Black Legion be better than Red Corsairs? Also if I am going with Red Corsairs how is Huron? What do folks think of the Lord of Skulls?
Finally, a question on Daemonic Ritual. Lets say I want to summon a unit of bloodletters. Their power rating is 4. I roll 3 dice- the odds are VERY good that I roll over a 4. Do I need to pay for these bloodletters when I make my 2k army list? I assume yes because it seems like all 5 of my characters could summon every turn and although some may end up taking mortal wounds the amount of daemons you could put on the board would outweight the cost of the characters. Could someone please clarify how this works?
Thanks
Just a quick note on something I was misunderstanding until a couple of days ago too.
If you give all the csm units the same mark of chaos as the soulgrunder you could field them in a Khorne, Nurgle, Slanesh or Tzeentch detachment.
Well, blow me down! 'Tis true, by the Dark Gods! So, if I have a detachment without units that benefit from any legion trait - like a spearhead full of daemon engines or tanks - I can just stick a Greater Daemon in there as my HQ!! Damn and blast! And here's me goofin' around with an added daemons detachment or summoning nonsense to get those big boys into my armies
sturguard wrote: Snugiraffe,
Thanks for the info, I'm sorry, I meant Defiler not Soul Grinder, so that detachment should be fine.
What do you think of raptors?
I imagine those 5 demon engines, jump pack lord and Greater Possessed running at an opponent and supporting them with the Oblits, Havocs, and Raptors. Meanwhile the marines take the objectives and the 15 man blob makes for centerfield and double taps their bolters.
Would Black Legion be better than Red Corsairs? Also if I am going with Red Corsairs how is Huron? What do folks think of the Lord of Skulls?
Finally, a question on Daemonic Ritual. Lets say I want to summon a unit of bloodletters. Their power rating is 4. I roll 3 dice- the odds are VERY good that I roll over a 4. Do I need to pay for these bloodletters when I make my 2k army list? I assume yes because it seems like all 5 of my characters could summon every turn and although some may end up taking mortal wounds the amount of daemons you could put on the board would outweight the cost of the characters. Could someone please clarify how this works?
Thanks
Raptors aren't very good this edition. They're simply too expensive for a unit which will drop in and then die. People often screen pretty well this edition, so getting a perfect target is hard.
The main issue you'll run into with GP running with daemon engines is that he'll get left behind. He is considerably slower than all of them. Some have viable paths to a first turn charge, while he has to plod along. I think you're probably better off smooshing your jump pack lord and GP into a daemon prince with wings who is not only one of our best units, but can also keep up.
Black legion is good, but has to use a lot of its complexity to be legit. So you need to know their various elements quite well and build around them. Huron I think it's generally agreed is a very solid way to go if you're running RC. Lord of Skulls is sort of a mixed result. A lot of people like him, so he's decent but not amazing. He also needs to be built around. I think the kytan is probably the stronger pick.
You reserve points for summoning at the start of the game. So if you want 100 points of daemons, you need to make a list which is 1900 points. You pick what you summon at the time of summoning, however so you could summon blood letters or horrors or plaguebearers or whatever else as you like.
I think that's pretty solid tbh.
I wouldn't really spring for the terminator armor on the sorc. I'd probably take huron over that. He can sit back then and babysit your oblits, havocs and maybe CSM.
You might go then something like Red Corsairs for your big group, put the oblits and havocs in a devastation battery. Make sure they're all marked slaanesh so they can use Endless Cacophony. Use the Dark apostle to give -1 to hit to your oblits.
If you have the points, I might even do an aux detachment for a cheap mounted herald of slaanesh; mark up your daemon engine group as slaanesh or chariot; she'll keep up and give them +1 strength, while being able to keep up and provide another psychic power.
What's the cheapest I could do an auxiliary detachment as you suggest? I could save points by dropping DP for Lord with JP and dropping term armor from sorcerer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And with their short range, don't I want to deep strike the Oblits in? That is why I was taking the sorcerer with termie armor
Just a quick note on something I was misunderstanding until a couple of days ago too.
If you give all the csm units the same mark of chaos as the soulgrunder you could field them in a Khorne, Nurgle, Slanesh or Tzeentch detachment.
Well, blow me down! 'Tis true, by the Dark Gods! So, if I have a detachment without units that benefit from any legion trait - like a spearhead full of daemon engines or tanks - I can just stick a Greater Daemon in there as my HQ!! Damn and blast! And here's me goofin' around with an added daemons detachment or summoning nonsense to get those big boys into my armies
What's that you say, 2 bloodthirsters and 3 lord discordants in one supreme command detachment? Bwahahah
You can also mix and match the legions so you can get access to all the stratergems. Especially looking at the crimson slaughter, -1 to hit on all units with 3" of a piece of terrain!
Any ideas on how to make a lord discordant viable? Looking at his stats I think he's going to get shot off the table in a single turn by most armies...
Also what should he be buffing and attacking?
Love the look of the model but so far cant find a place for him in the lists I'm coming up with.
mrtomski wrote: Any ideas on how to make a lord discordant viable? Looking at his stats I think he's going to get shot off the table in a single turn by most armies...
Also what should he be buffing and attacking?
Love the look of the model but so far cant find a place for him in the lists I'm coming up with.
I think he's cheap enough that you could just throw him in a list with a couple other engines and treat him like you would any other walker. 40pts more than a mauler or 20pts more than a defiler is fine. If he dies, he dies.
If you're gearing him up to be the lynchpin of your army, then yeah, he'll have a huge target on his squishy back. You'll need extreme target saturation (like 5+ big scary walkers). If you dont get first turn, for sure pop the cover strat, which will give him a 4+ save against stuff like lascannons and the like. If you DO get first turn, then with the combo of warptime, +movement WL trait, and advance/charge shinnanigins, he\ll have done his job and it doesnt really matter so much if he dies after that. You'll already be in combat mulching stuff.
I think the "get shot off the board" thing is probably overstated. Provide other targets which will attract fire more and run multiples. I think a supreme command of 2 lords discord, 1 sorc and 1 kytan will be a lovely blender.
So I would say rerolls+prescience+endless cacophony+VotLW is the strongest realistic shooting set up. 1 demon prince or huron is all that's required. I think you probably want to have multiple units who would benefit because any one could be targeted and destroyed.
Best candidates: Chain Cannon Havocs, Lascannon Havocs, Oblits. Honorable mention goes to the plausible red corsair 15-20 man CSM squad.
Survivability-wise...probably alpha legion + dark apostate for a single target is the strongest on turn one. Not much is worth this kind of protection in my mind though; it costs 100 points. After turn one, you can of course add in nurgle -1 to hit or slaanesh 5+ fnp. But I have a really hard time relying on things which aren't active turn one.
There are a lot of combos which are solid that include "if you give it a warlord trait and a relic". Like, the lord discordant with the half damage BL trait and either a slaanesh elixir or the mechatendrils is pretty damn scary. I've seen several chaos lord variants wandering around. I'm curious which one we settle on as best: I tend to think it will have to be one who doesn't too heavily rely on being in an otherwise difficult to use legion. Like, the flawless host DP and/or lord is scary, but what else are you going to put in your flawless host detachment exactly?
I'm kinda feeling weirdly nice feelings about a pretty plain biker lord with thunder hammer and the elixir as my second HQ for Red Corsairs. Sure, he'll die horribly, but not before he shoots off advance+charge and smashes something unexpectedly to bits.
drakerocket wrote: Like, the flawless host DP and/or lord is scary, but what else are you going to put in your flawless host detachment exactly?
Quite revoltingly, the best thing to add to a Flawless Host force would actually be Berzerkers, wouldn't it? Or those thunderhammer Chosen in a Rhino, although that's a bit of a suicide unit.
In fact, you could make your FH detachment a Soulforged Pack and cram it full of daemon engines - that way, the FH trait and strat are just icing, really. If you're going to run daemon engines anyway, the legion is almost neglectible.
Thunder hammer chosen would have -1 to hit so their trait would be wasted as flawless host. You would need to add a further buff.
Thunder hammer chosen are cool, but not even remotely competitive because you need to stack way too many moving parts together on a unit with literally one focus, which happens to be in the hardest phase lol.
Yeah...that is one way to go, but the BL warlord trait on a discordant is such a game changer for him. And I actually quite like the Brazen beasts strategem.
So, I think the issue I'm finding with the daemon engine list is detachments. I really want some daemons with them; a cheap group of slaanesh daemons is a big boon, granting them advance+charge and +1 strength from a mounted herald/chariot. And I'm feeling a red corsairs detachment is almost mandatory. It narrows me to only one other detachment, which makes choosing hard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for berserkers, like, sure, they're fine in flawless host, but I think both alpha legion (for survival), red corsairs and world eaters all do better for them.
Red Corsair wrote: Thunder hammer chosen would have -1 to hit so their trait would be wasted as flawless host. You would need to add a further buff.
Thunder hammer chosen are cool, but not even remotely competitive because you need to stack way too many moving parts together on a unit with literally one focus, which happens to be in the hardest phase lol.
How so? with 10 guys armed with the melee weapon of your choice all you gotta do is put them in a transport.
They will kill just about anything in terms of infantry with lightning claws, or more affordably, power axes.
They will be 1 point cheaper than possessed, minus the invulnerable, which is kind of a big deal but then they also still have bolt guns and bolt pistols.
And in combat, given the amount of wounds they cause on average, you really won't be needing a second activation.
Of course, berzerkers come very close, cost less and the addition of a gun really doesn't matter if you're transporting them, and they DO still get that second activation.
All I'm saying is that they're not really hard to use in that sense. It's just that there are more efficient solutions. And they still can't go up against elite units unless you buff them as well, which then becomes trickier and again, there are easier ways.
If only they could still be taken as troops.
**edit**
Though in order to kill a knight you'd pretty much need to deepstrike them in a dreadclaw, which requires forgeworld and the knight can simply bugger off and you're stranded without warptime . Or warptime turn 1 and charge it.
On the plus side, that sorcerer can also hitch a ride, but still.
So I run World Eaters and Alpha Legion. Alpha for access to Psykers and the -1 to hit. World Eaters are for a fun party bus of bezerkers with dark apostle and exhalted to add more fun with rerolls
I go up against mostly imperial gaurd, loyalist scum and eldar.
One thing I am considering doing is adding in some Death Gaurd. Anyone have any opinions if DG would work well with my set up?
Gangland wrote: So I run World Eaters and Alpha Legion. Alpha for access to Psykers and the -1 to hit. World Eaters are for a fun party bus of bezerkers with dark apostle and exhalted to add more fun with rerolls
I go up against mostly imperial gaurd, loyalist scum and eldar.
One thing I am considering doing is adding in some Death Gaurd. Anyone have any opinions if DG would work well with my set up?
Just a quick note on something I was misunderstanding until a couple of days ago too.
If you give all the csm units the same mark of chaos as the soulgrunder you could field them in a Khorne, Nurgle, Slanesh or Tzeentch detachment.
Well, blow me down! 'Tis true, by the Dark Gods! So, if I have a detachment without units that benefit from any legion trait - like a spearhead full of daemon engines or tanks - I can just stick a Greater Daemon in there as my HQ!! Damn and blast! And here's me goofin' around with an added daemons detachment or summoning nonsense to get those big boys into my armies
This is fine as long as you weren’t wanting your GD to unlock Daemon Stratagems (Possession is a really nasty secret weapon), or to benefit from their deity’s Locus (Khorne Daemon Engines tend to like the aura of re-rolling charges).
Here’s an interesting thing about DEITY detachments: three units of WE Berzerkers led by Karanak and a Bloodthirster counts as a Battalion. No LEGION trait, as it’s not a ‘pure’ CSM detachment, but being World Eaters is all it takes to make zerks into troops.
Replace the Daemons with, say, Abaddon and a Word Bearers Master of Possession, and the detachment is a CSM one, and unlocks CSM Stratagems. Which, for instance, enables Tide of Traitors to be used on some friendly Death Guard Cultists.
8ed’s solution to soup exploitation has built a lot of weird facets.
I'm not a hardcore CSM player, previously just an Alpha Legion fanboy. The latest expansion gave me an excuse to play my Huron model I've had forever and expand a bit. I just played a game using a 20-man Red Corsairs with pistol/chainswords, Havocs in a Spearhead that became a Cult of Destruction, and a 30-man cultist blob for the Cult of the Damned. My takeaways:
1. The Red Corsairs bump to CP is so nice! Advancing and charging a 20-man squad is great, and the only thing better is the Stratagem to bring them back again. I recycled the blob when they got whittled down and had them smash a Demon Prince to pieces.
2. The stratagem to shoot at the end of the first turn is phenomenal. If you have a variety of weapons (I took a Lascannon crew, a Missile crew, and a Chaincannon crew), the flexibility to hit what needs to be hit is great.
3. Reaper Chaincannons are ridiculously good; in other news, water is wet.
4. Paying CP for the Apostle's prayers in the Cult of the Damned sucks; take the Disciples for the extra points.
It has just occurred to me that a chaincannon havoc squad with Punishing Volley is horrific against fast close combat units like kraken genestealers and shining spears, these units rely very heavily on first turn charge and having them come to us effectively negates the short range issue that chaincannons have.
Continuity wrote: It has just occurred to me that a chaincannon havoc squad with Punishing Volley is horrific against fast close combat units like kraken genestealers and shining spears, these units rely very heavily on first turn charge and having them come to us effectively negates the short range issue that chaincannons have.
If we had the same meta saturation as Imperium, I suspect they’d become a minor gatekeeper. Not as much as Castellan, but close. Has anyone else got a strat like this? As the first 2.0 Codex, I wouldn’t be surprised if we see similar cropping up in other factions. Maybe minor Chapters, like Raptors and that.
That said, it’s from a Specialist Detachment. And relies on a new, somewhat extraordinary weapon. Hmm. We live in interesting times...
The Greater Possessed are sweet, I totally love them. Remember though that they need to share the same <LEGION> and <MARK OF CHAOS> keywords with the daemons you want them to buff.
Question on that i've been stumped on. what if something shares the legion keyword with the possessed, but doesn't have any mark? I get that if it has a mark it needs to match, but what if you have non? Coming from admech, and GSC the chaos keywords seem like a convoluted mess to me.
The Greater Possessed are sweet, I totally love them. Remember though that they need to share the same <LEGION> and <MARK OF CHAOS> keywords with the daemons you want them to buff.
Question on that i've been stumped on. what if something shares the legion keyword with the possessed, but doesn't have any mark? I get that if it has a mark it needs to match, but what if you have non? Coming from admech, and GSC the chaos keywords seem like a convoluted mess to me.
Greater Possessed need to share both deity and legion and empyrean connections to buff units. I agree, it’s a tight restriction and it stands in janky contrast to the ability of Daemon Princes and Heralds to share their auras between Legions and species. I’ve not taken them, much - I like a fast Daemon Engine rushdown and they feel like a footslogging ball & chain. Gonna try them out with a Possessed deathstar, though.
Danny slag wrote: Question on that i've been stumped on. what if something shares the legion keyword with the possessed, but doesn't have any mark? I get that if it has a mark it needs to match, but what if you have non?
If you don't give them a mark, then the keyword sort of disappears into thin air. And if you don't have the keyword, the GP won't buff you.
lindsay40k wrote: Greater Possessed need to share both deity and legion and empyrean connections to buff units. I agree, it’s a tight restriction and it stands in janky contrast to the ability of Daemon Princes and Heralds to share their auras between Legions and species. I’ve not taken them, much - I like a fast Daemon Engine rushdown and they feel like a footslogging ball & chain. Gonna try them out with a Possessed deathstar, though.
So far, I've used a GP to buff a Venomcrawler's shooting in the first turn. Which is only worth it if you're firing at T8. Otherwise, I've not worried about the buff at all. At 70 points, the buff (while still giving the model itself S6) is just a bonus. A GP is an awesome melee unit and can be annoyingly tough to kill if the dice like you. You need a Rhino, though, and another unit to screen it (or them, I run two, because more blood).
I'm going to try out an RC GP warlord with unholy vigour and the elixir this weekend. It's a 1000pts game limited to a patrol detachment, I expect I'll have some fun with it at least.
Had a thought, but again because chaos keywords are wonky I'm not sure if this works. I have Karnak from the wrath and rapture box. I'm thinking since he's a character, cheap, and fast, he could keep up with my rushing daemon engine list, and with his loci give them all re-rolls to their charges. Does that work?
Danny slag wrote: Had a thought, but again because chaos keywords are wonky I'm not sure if this works. I have Karnak from the wrath and rapture box. I'm thinking since he's a character, cheap, and fast, he could keep up with my rushing daemon engine list, and with his loci give them all re-rolls to their charges. Does that work?
Karanak is very good at this niche, and also provides useful DTW coverage. The only other unit that can perform this niche is a flying DP - who is faster, doesn’t care about obstacles, laughs at most snipers, and can carry a relic axe so powerful it scares Castellans.
Danny slag wrote: Had a thought, but again because chaos keywords are wonky I'm not sure if this works. I have Karnak from the wrath and rapture box. I'm thinking since he's a character, cheap, and fast, he could keep up with my rushing daemon engine list, and with his loci give them all re-rolls to their charges. Does that work?
Karanak is very good at this niche, and also provides useful DTW coverage. The only other unit that can perform this niche is a flying DP - who is faster, doesn’t care about obstacles, laughs at most snipers, and can carry a relic axe so powerful it scares Castellans.
But he is from the chaos daemon codex, so you would need to add a aux support detachment for -1 CP, if your battalion is CSM, right ?
Danny slag wrote: Had a thought, but again because chaos keywords are wonky I'm not sure if this works. I have Karnak from the wrath and rapture box. I'm thinking since he's a character, cheap, and fast, he could keep up with my rushing daemon engine list, and with his loci give them all re-rolls to their charges. Does that work?
Karanak is very good at this niche, and also provides useful DTW coverage. The only other unit that can perform this niche is a flying DP - who is faster, doesn’t care about obstacles, laughs at most snipers, and can carry a relic axe so powerful it scares Castellans.
But he is from the chaos daemon codex, so you would need to add a aux support detachment for -1 CP, if your battalion is CSM, right ?
You would need some sort of Chaos Daemons detachment, yes. And it’d have to be all Khorne for Karanak/DP to gain the aura. This could be aux support HQ (-1CP, does not unlock CD Stratagems - such as the excellent trap card, Possession, and the Rewards of Chaos that could give the DP the relic weapon), Patrol (adding a unit of Bloodletters, who for 2-3CP become a brutal deep strike attack unit), or something bigger (Karanak, DP, and 40-50 Bloodletters is a very strong Battalion).
lindsay40k wrote: Karanak is very good at this niche, and also provides useful DTW coverage. The only other unit that can perform this niche is a flying DP - who is faster, doesn’t care about obstacles, laughs at most snipers, and can carry a relic axe so powerful it scares Castellans.
He would be a very solid 2nd HQ choice for a Khorne Daemons Battalion Legion of Skulls, especially with Rage Incarnate and the Crimson Crown, could be quite magical. The DP is nice, but doesn't provide the psychic protection, which has some real value in moving that package upfield. Also, 70pts is solid, to paraphrase Napoleon, 'cheap has a quality all its own'.
Edit: nm on the warlord, forgot he's locked to a specific trait.
lindsay40k wrote: Karanak is very good at this niche, and also provides useful DTW coverage. The only other unit that can perform this niche is a flying DP - who is faster, doesn’t care about obstacles, laughs at most snipers, and can carry a relic axe so powerful it scares Castellans.
He would be a very solid 2nd HQ choice for a Khorne Daemons Battalion Legion of Skulls, especially with Rage Incarnate and the Crimson Crown, could be quite magical. The DP is nice, but doesn't provide the psychic protection, which has some real value in moving that package upfield. Also, 70pts is solid, to paraphrase Napoleon, 'cheap has a quality all its own'.
Edit: nm on the warlord, forgot he's locked to a specific trait.
I got your point, but I believe the quote your thinking of was from Stalin who said "Quantity is a quality all it's own."
Any thoughts on the Storm Eagle making a comeback? Its unique virtues of 16w, decent guns, and 20 transport slots makes it a very flexible transport, and the DA can unlock that magical -2 to hit on T1. Yes, it's 300+pts, but we're one of the few factions that has CC troops worth delivering in such a vehicle. Big Possessed blob or triple msu PFist zerkers with support is significant.
grouchoben wrote: Any thoughts on the Storm Eagle making a comeback? Its unique virtues of 16w, decent guns, and 20 transport slots makes it a very flexible transport, and the DA can unlock that magical -2 to hit on T1. Yes, it's 300+pts, but we're one of the few factions that has CC troops worth delivering in such a vehicle. Big Possessed blob or triple msu PFist zerkers with support is significant.
I have 2 Storm Eagles, and was planning to do something like this. I was using it prior to the DA changes and it was often very good (it was also occasionally blown up when I lost initiative and useless). Throwing 18 Berzerkers, Exalted Champion, and either a Chaos Lord or DA inside I think is very solid, especially now that you can dial it up to -2 to hit, or even -3 if you throw Mark of Nurgle on it also.
Also, amusingly, storm eagles aren't a bad way to keep your oblits safe; you can toss three of them in there, hidden behind a -2 to be hit vehicle; still have room for 2 berserker squads and a character to help them out. They can hop out turn 1 then!
Danny slag wrote: Had a thought, but again because chaos keywords are wonky I'm not sure if this works. I have Karnak from the wrath and rapture box. I'm thinking since he's a character, cheap, and fast, he could keep up with my rushing daemon engine list, and with his loci give them all re-rolls to their charges. Does that work?
Karanak is very good at this niche, and also provides useful DTW coverage. The only other unit that can perform this niche is a flying DP - who is faster, doesn’t care about obstacles, laughs at most snipers, and can carry a relic axe so powerful it scares Castellans.
Thank you. My plan was to use him in a patrol detachment along with a mini bloodletter bomb of 20.
Run up the field with a mob of daemon engines + karnak. Drop the bloodletters in. And I've got a khorne themed gallant Knight to join. I know going mono khorne isn't ideal, but blood for the blood god and all that.
I was also planning on using a MoP to give all the engines a +1 to their invuln saves, but he can't really keep up with them as he has no jetpack option.
Basically I'm trying to make a khorne daemonkin army work.
So I'm mulling over a Nurgle Daemon engine blob consisting of the following:
- Nurgle Daemon Prince from the Daemon book
- Nurgle LD - Decimators
- Defilers
We get the following benefits on our daemon engines:
- +1 damage on 6s (including guns) due to locus
- Reroll 1 to hit due to prince
- +1 to hit with LD - Potentially +2 move and charge if you take the Soulforged specialist WLT
Continuity wrote: So I'm mulling over a Nurgle Daemon engine blob consisting of the following:
- Nurgle Daemon Prince from the Daemon book
- Nurgle LD - Decimators
- Defilers
We get the following benefits on our daemon engines:
- +1 damage on 6s (including guns) due to locus
- Reroll 1 to hit due to prince
- +1 to hit with LD - Potentially +2 move and charge if you take the Soulforged specialist WLT
What do you guys think?
You dont get locus in a mixed nurgle detachment, has to be a nurgle chaos demons detachment. Likewise you can't give it the soulforged pack as it needs to be a chaos space marines detachment to do so.
Gangland wrote: So I run World Eaters and Alpha Legion. Alpha for access to Psykers and the -1 to hit. World Eaters are for a fun party bus of bezerkers with dark apostle and exhalted to add more fun with rerolls
I go up against mostly imperial gaurd, loyalist scum and eldar.
One thing I am considering doing is adding in some Death Gaurd. Anyone have any opinions if DG would work well with my set up?
Would depend on your al part, no?
Typically I run terminators, obliterators, predators, sorcerers, and everything I don’t intend to be in close combat as Alpha. Cultists, bezerkers, Dark apostle, and exalted champs are all world eaters
I always find world eaters to be overkill myself (and i have a world eaters army). They just do so good in cc that those extra attacks were never worth it. I ended up running them as renegades for the advance and charge which i always found to be more useful. The only reason i ever find myself looking back at world eaters is karn, that guy is just too cool not to use. Want to scare your opponent? Put kharn down next to 2 forgefiends. Now put a herald of khorne with the blood crown near them. Thats 16 str 8 ap-1 2d shots that wound rolls of 6 generate additonal attacks and you get to reroll all failed hits. Plus you get the added bonus that no one will want to charge that while kharn is sitting there and if someone does charge kharn isnt likely to hurt a forgefiend much if/when a swing goes wild.
I have used that setup quite effectively vs a dark angel player locally, with the beta bolter rules he went hard into raven wing. He was using a large 8 man squad of bolters and speed of the raven strat to boost and get the 4++ and still shoot and 2 black knight bike squads boosting firing their assault plasma. That stopped him dead. Does a number on terms with storm shields too.
Continuity wrote: So I'm mulling over a Nurgle Daemon engine blob consisting of the following:
- Nurgle Daemon Prince from the Daemon book
- Nurgle LD - Decimators
- Defilers
We get the following benefits on our daemon engines:
- +1 damage on 6s (including guns) due to locus
- Reroll 1 to hit due to prince
- +1 to hit with LD - Potentially +2 move and charge if you take the Soulforged specialist WLT
What do you guys think?
You dont get locus in a mixed nurgle detachment, has to be a nurgle chaos demons detachment. Likewise you can't give it the soulforged pack as it needs to be a chaos space marines detachment to do so.
They won't be in a single detachment
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ph34r wrote: That does not seem very different than those same units but not Nurgle, tbh. Extra would on a 6 is not enormous.
+1 damage applying to shooting attack is pretty significant IMO, hence why I included defilers and decimators since they can maximize the locus buffs
I think that nurgle and khorne synergise the best with LD and daemon engines. Herald would also work well for extra strengthe an buffing spells but you'd have to deepstrike turn 2 to keep up with prince and engine. This is where I think khorne has a slight advantage as skullmaster has better chance keeping up and works with kytans.
You might want to add the tree so you can advance/fallback and charge.
I find World Eaters's only two benefits /really/ are Kharn the Betrayer (who is one of the best baby sitters for shooting units, which just drips with irony) and the fact Berzerkers are troops. It allows you to not have to worry about taking as much cultist tax in your army if you don't want to, or going double battalion without overloading on chaff.
And as stated above, i've had a lot of success with using Khorne Heralds with units like Maulerfiends and Lord of Skulls. The Herald on a Juggernaut is probably the best bet, only because it can more or less match the pace of whatever its buffing. (if you start almost equal distance, the Herald's 6" buff aura will still be in reach even with losing 2 inches a turn on the Demon Engines)
The Nurgle Daemon Engine group works just fine. If you’re already sorted for a Hereticus caster and want the Nurgle re-roll aura, a Daemons DP effectively has more wounds and access to a useful support spell. Yes, it needs a separate detachment, but just put it in a Battalion with two Nurgling squads to plant objective flags and screen, a Plaguebearer squad to camp a home objective or be a massive robust horde, and either a Poxbringer to cast support spells or Epidemius to scarecrow deep strikers and make the re-roll 1’s global & independent from the DP once it does a suicide run to assassinate a key target or score a juicy tactical objective.
Add a Gnarlmaw and you can laugh in near unkillable Obliterators, double advance then charge with a Warptimed Maulerfiend, and all your Defilers & Lords Discordant can fire whilst advancing. If your opponent saw Nurgle and thought slugs, they’re in for a rude awakening.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vaklor4 wrote: I find World Eaters's only two benefits /really/ are Kharn the Betrayer (who is one of the best baby sitters for shooting units, which just drips with irony) and the fact Berzerkers are troops. It allows you to not have to worry about taking as much cultist tax in your army if you don't want to, or going double battalion without overloading on chaff.
And as stated above, i've had a lot of success with using Khorne Heralds with units like Maulerfiends and Lord of Skulls. The Herald on a Juggernaut is probably the best bet, only because it can more or less match the pace of whatever its buffing. (if you start almost equal distance, the Herald's 6" buff aura will still be in reach even with losing 2 inches a turn on the Demon Engines)
I’ve seen a pretty scary WE Warp Talons bomb:
- run a Herald forwards T1
- T2, Summon a Throne and jump on it
- Drop Warp Talons Raptorial Host with RH WT - blend
The Khorne Stratagem multiplies the WE Trait for a product of twenty attacks on top of the bucketload from the throne. Throw in Crimson Crown and VOTLW and, assuming effective screen clearance, this could get ugly
So as someone who is thinking about coming back to actually play 40k after the awesome new models, I have some rather noobish questions:
It seems plasma got pretty buffed this edition especially the pistols, so are meltaguns still useful or should I equip my cc marines with a plasma pistol and a plasma gun?
I'm not that fond of the keyword system so far, it sounds like I have to pick a mark, but as I'm playing Word Bearers ( ) I would like to avoid that. Is it possible to pick no mark or an undivided one and will this gut me to no end (I suppose so...)?
I would like to go CSM daemon heavy, is there a possibility to get daemon on helbrutes and are there some nice unit combos you can recommend?
If you use the Chaos Boon start. is there any reason why, if you roll spawndom you cannot use the 1CP re-roll strat, to re-roll the result (apart from if you have already used the re-roll this fight phase...)?
lindsay40k wrote: The Nurgle Daemon Engine group works just fine. If you’re already sorted for a Hereticus caster and want the Nurgle re-roll aura, a Daemons DP effectively has more wounds and access to a useful support spell. Yes, it needs a separate detachment, but just put it in a Battalion with two Nurgling squads to plant objective flags and screen, a Plaguebearer squad to camp a home objective or be a massive robust horde, and either a Poxbringer to cast support spells or Epidemius to scarecrow deep strikers and make the re-roll 1’s global & independent from the DP once it does a suicide run to assassinate a key target or score a juicy tactical objective.
Add a Gnarlmaw and you can laugh in near unkillable Obliterators, double advance then charge with a Warptimed Maulerfiend, and all your Defilers & Lords Discordant can fire whilst advancing. If your opponent saw Nurgle and thought slugs, they’re in for a rude awakening.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vaklor4 wrote: I find World Eaters's only two benefits /really/ are Kharn the Betrayer (who is one of the best baby sitters for shooting units, which just drips with irony) and the fact Berzerkers are troops. It allows you to not have to worry about taking as much cultist tax in your army if you don't want to, or going double battalion without overloading on chaff.
And as stated above, i've had a lot of success with using Khorne Heralds with units like Maulerfiends and Lord of Skulls. The Herald on a Juggernaut is probably the best bet, only because it can more or less match the pace of whatever its buffing. (if you start almost equal distance, the Herald's 6" buff aura will still be in reach even with losing 2 inches a turn on the Demon Engines)
I’ve seen a pretty scary WE Warp Talons bomb:
- run a Herald forwards T1
- T2, Summon a Throne and jump on it
- Drop Warp Talons Raptorial Host with RH WT - blend
The Khorne Stratagem multiplies the WE Trait for a product of twenty attacks on top of the bucketload from the throne. Throw in Crimson Crown and VOTLW and, assuming effective screen clearance, this could get ugly
I've just played a game with Khorne daemons, herald on juggernaut and crimson crown. With WE warp talons and alpha legion khorne oblits. Worked really well.
WE warp talons seem really strong and the oblits were getting 8 hits each with prescience and crimson crown. Not needing to spend 2 CP per turn on Cacophony was great.
Are people playing their oblits at 115 or 65? At 115 they seem over priced when a venom crawler is 15 pts more, but 65 they are stupid good. I have been using mine at 115 because i dont want to cause an issue with my gaming group.
Come on gw, at least give us THAT answer, why are you making us wait for the big FAQ for this?!?
Shadox wrote: So as someone who is thinking about coming back to actually play 40k after the awesome new models, I have some rather noobish questions:
It seems plasma got pretty buffed this edition especially the pistols, so are meltaguns still useful or should I equip my cc marines with a plasma pistol and a plasma gun?
I'm not that fond of the keyword system so far, it sounds like I have to pick a mark, but as I'm playing Word Bearers ( ) I would like to avoid that. Is it possible to pick no mark or an undivided one and will this gut me to no end (I suppose so...)?
I would like to go CSM daemon heavy, is there a possibility to get daemon on helbrutes and are there some nice unit combos you can recommend?
Plasma guns are great. Especially with Prescience, Lord/Prince rerolls, Veterans of the Long War, Endless Cacophony.
Plasma pistols are weird. I tried them early on and they just don’t seem to gel in this edition. Either go for the full rifle and get the double tap, or focus on melee. To use a pistol’s ability to shoot point blank, you need to start your own turn in melee; that’s a really narrow niche for a weapon you have to pay for.
Melta is odd. At 6-12”, overcharged Plasma is more effective. Within 6” isn’t especially relevant, since close range gunner units generally opt to deep strike in, and that’s not going to happen.
Word Bearers sans mortal DEITY units is possible. In fact, every WB-available Codex unit except for Daemon Princes, Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines, Rubrics, and Lords of Skulls is by default unmarked, and there is a (sadly, near useless) Stratagem specifically for unmarked units.
I’ve come to quite like my WBNMs & zerks, but mostly my heavy hitters are things like Possessed, Obliterators, and Daemon Engines - all of which are quite easy to reconcile with Lorgarian polytheism, because it’s not us picking a deity, it’s a Daemon picking us. Allow your vessels for the sacred ones to accept the gifts conferred upon them by their bodily guests, and go full Gal Vorbak on the corpse-worshippers.
Helbrutes are strictly mortal units, buuut there’s the Forge World Decimator Daemon Engine that’s got a similar profile and role to a HB. Get creative with Daemonic aesthetics, and I’m sure a Possessed Helbrute counting as a Decimator will pass muster for WYSIWYG. This may be superfluous, though, because Obliterators, Defilers, Maulerfiends, Possessed, Lord Discordant, Daemon Prince and Master of Possession are all quite capable of forming a solid Daemonkin army with powerful synergies and no need for convoluted conversions or this-counts-as. I’m personally a fan of the Heldrake as an early game griefer and occasional assassin, but I seem to be a minority on this as it’s commonly considered overcosted.
If you’re made of money or have access to good discounts or are in it for the long-term hobbycraft, fours detachments of units possessed by a single deity’s Daemons, supported by some unmarked mortal Dark Apostles and Masters of Possession and Cultists, and accomplained by a detachment of each Daemon, is a great looking Word Bearers army to build towards - and about as effective as our weak Legion Trait and Stratagem will allow. (Our Warlord Trait is pretty good, though. Definitely useful on a Chaos Lord or Daemon Prince. And our Relic is decent; it was great, back when a Dark Apostle could take it - this may be FAQ’d back.)
Azuza001 wrote: I always find world eaters to be overkill myself (and i have a world eaters army). They just do so good in cc that those extra attacks were never worth it. I ended up running them as renegades for the advance and charge which i always found to be more useful. The only reason i ever find myself looking back at world eaters is karn, that guy is just too cool not to use. Want to scare your opponent? Put kharn down next to 2 forgefiends. Now put a herald of khorne with the blood crown near them. Thats 16 str 8 ap-1 2d shots that wound rolls of 6 generate additonal attacks and you get to reroll all failed hits. Plus you get the added bonus that no one will want to charge that while kharn is sitting there and if someone does charge kharn isnt likely to hurt a forgefiend much if/when a swing goes wild.
I have used that setup quite effectively vs a dark angel player locally, with the beta bolter rules he went hard into raven wing. He was using a large 8 man squad of bolters and speed of the raven strat to boost and get the 4++ and still shoot and 2 black knight bike squads boosting firing their assault plasma. That stopped him dead. Does a number on terms with storm shields too.
Very cool. I may steal. I just need 1 more forgefiend and Kharn. I usually go with the Champions for the rerolls due to cost. I will say that yes the extra attacks do seem like overkill by man does every opponent I face fear that rhino or landraider with those bezerkers. I was able to take out a land raider and rhino on 1 charge against a Dark Angels player and he rolled horribly on his disembark. He has never forgotten that and sends EVERYTHING at them now.
Azuza001 wrote: I always find world eaters to be overkill myself (and i have a world eaters army). They just do so good in cc that those extra attacks were never worth it. I ended up running them as renegades for the advance and charge which i always found to be more useful. The only reason i ever find myself looking back at world eaters is karn, that guy is just too cool not to use. Want to scare your opponent? Put kharn down next to 2 forgefiends. Now put a herald of khorne with the blood crown near them. Thats 16 str 8 ap-1 2d shots that wound rolls of 6 generate additonal attacks and you get to reroll all failed hits. Plus you get the added bonus that no one will want to charge that while kharn is sitting there and if someone does charge kharn isnt likely to hurt a forgefiend much if/when a swing goes wild.
I have used that setup quite effectively vs a dark angel player locally, with the beta bolter rules he went hard into raven wing. He was using a large 8 man squad of bolters and speed of the raven strat to boost and get the 4++ and still shoot and 2 black knight bike squads boosting firing their assault plasma. That stopped him dead. Does a number on terms with storm shields too.
Very cool. I may steal. I just need 1 more forgefiend and Kharn. I usually go with the Champions for the rerolls due to cost. I will say that yes the extra attacks do seem like overkill by man does every opponent I face fear that rhino or landraider with those bezerkers. I was able to take out a land raider and rhino on 1 charge against a Dark Angels player and he rolled horribly on his disembark. He has never forgotten that and sends EVERYTHING at them now.
A Rhino full of bezerkers is 240 points and I've seen it draw fire over Magnus and 3 newblits. People are really scared of them which is great as a distraction from juicier targets!
Azuza001 wrote: Are people playing their oblits at 115 or 65? At 115 they seem over priced when a venom crawler is 15 pts more, but 65 they are stupid good. I have been using mine at 115 because i dont want to cause an issue with my gaming group.
Come on gw, at least give us THAT answer, why are you making us wait for the big FAQ for this?!?
Maybe they are waiting for some info to see what they should ultimately be priced at?
Tried out 3 thunderhammer jump pack captain in a Host Raptorial detachment. They were good! But I think jump pack captain with relic would be not bad too. Both have pros and cons. I tried out norlilith crown too. Not bad. I got to field a few predators and hellbrutes in my army. Not very mobile though. Abby was utterly amazing at fighting and tanks good damage too. Really really need to get into combat with him so that he doesn't waste his points. My Abby helped me go toe to toe with 3 custodes bike and 3 thunderhammer captains!
Can we talk MSUCSMs for a minute? With cultists getting hit with the nerf (thunder)hammer, we are in the uncomfortable position of not having a competitive troops choice anymore. CSM probably come closest now, paying 15pts for markedly better stats.
To that end, what's your favoured squad composition? All said and done, I'll probably be running 68pt squads an awful lot (combi+chainaxe for the Champ), but there are a few other stand-out possibilities. Autocannon, Lascannon and 2 plasma, each clocking in at 75, 90 & 87pts, assuming no champ upgrades.
Of the three more expensive options, they each have a role to play. Auto is cheap as chips, and you won't mind the occasional -1 to hit from moving with the squad, because you weren't expecting it to do too much anyway.
Lascannon is a proper consideration now imo, as our havocs are rocking their new toy, and can't take the ablative wounds you generally want for lascannon infantry. Moving is a waste though, and you probably want rerolls if possible. Static but capable choice.
Double plas has the advantage of being able to move and shoot with no penalty, and can threaten a lot of units within 12". But they desperately need baby-sitting, and as soon as they are in optima range, are liable to be locked in CC.
Finally, it looks like Alpha Legion are still top dogs for our troops, conferring much-needed survivability, and a 9" extra deployment, so you can start a team in optimal position/range.
Anyone got any thoughts or suggestions they can add?
grouchoben wrote: Can we talk MSUCSMs for a minute? With cultists getting hit with the nerf (thunder)hammer, we are in the uncomfortable position of not having a competitive troops choice anymore. CSM probably come closest now, paying 15pts for markedly better stats.
To that end, what's your favoured squad composition? All said and done, I'll probably be running 68pt squads an awful lot (combi+chainaxe for the Champ), but there are a few other stand-out possibilities. Autocannon, Lascannon and 2 plasma, each clocking in at 75, 90 & 87pts, assuming no champ upgrades.
Of the three more expensive options, they each have a role to play. Auto is cheap as chips, and you won't mind the occasional -1 to hit from moving with the squad, because you weren't expecting it to do too much anyway.
Lascannon is a proper consideration now imo, as our havocs are rocking their new toy, and can't take the ablative wounds you generally want for lascannon infantry. Moving is a waste though, and you probably want rerolls if possible. Static but capable choice.
Double plas has the advantage of being able to move and shoot with no penalty, and can threaten a lot of units within 12". But they desperately need baby-sitting, and as soon as they are in optima range, are liable to be locked in CC.
Finally, it looks like Alpha Legion are still top dogs for our troops, conferring much-needed survivability, and a 9" extra deployment, so you can start a team in optimal position/range.
Anyone got any thoughts or suggestions they can add?
I'm also thinking about this, I think auto cannons might be the answer, 10 points a pop and if you have say 4-5 min squads those shots will add up. I was also wondering about missile launchers, flexible weapon, but double the cost.
Personally I'll take a min bat for red corsair and then alpha for the rest, currently trying to figure out the list.
grouchoben wrote: Can we talk MSUCSMs for a minute? With cultists getting hit with the nerf (thunder)hammer, we are in the uncomfortable position of not having a competitive troops choice anymore. CSM probably come closest now, paying 15pts for markedly better stats.
To that end, what's your favoured squad composition? All said and done, I'll probably be running 68pt squads an awful lot (combi+chainaxe for the Champ), but there are a few other stand-out possibilities. Autocannon, Lascannon and 2 plasma, each clocking in at 75, 90 & 87pts, assuming no champ upgrades.
Of the three more expensive options, they each have a role to play. Auto is cheap as chips, and you won't mind the occasional -1 to hit from moving with the squad, because you weren't expecting it to do too much anyway.
Lascannon is a proper consideration now imo, as our havocs are rocking their new toy, and can't take the ablative wounds you generally want for lascannon infantry. Moving is a waste though, and you probably want rerolls if possible. Static but capable choice.
Double plas has the advantage of being able to move and shoot with no penalty, and can threaten a lot of units within 12". But they desperately need baby-sitting, and as soon as they are in optima range, are liable to be locked in CC.
Finally, it looks like Alpha Legion are still top dogs for our troops, conferring much-needed survivability, and a 9" extra deployment, so you can start a team in optimal position/range.
Anyone got any thoughts or suggestions they can add?
Yes, I have a few thoughts to add. A MSUCSM army that emphasizes heavy weapons might be viable.
I've been testing a Black Legion list, a scaled down version of the gunline I've been running most of 8th edition. It has 6x 5-man CSM squads with a lascannon plus 3 Havoc squads with 2 lascannons each along with Abaddon for rerolls. This part of the list clocks in around 1200 points, still trying to settle on the rest.
In general, what I've observed is:
- MSU screws with split fire. Creates issues with overkill for opponents, lots of wasted shots.
- MSU screws with target priority. Opponents prioritize things like Helbrutes, Hellforged Predators, etc over troops even when troops carry better guns.
- MSU screws with charges. I think more about defense against multi-charges and consolidation. There's a 'speedbump' aspect to movement when units are close to each other, it's a little different than screening. You're not trying to cover an area with a string of troops, you're presenting a target positioned to prevent other units from getting locked in combat.
- MSU makes you think about auras more, since you don't see as much benefit from Stratagems and psychic powers. I'm looking at beatsticks that can buff other units to maximize their effectiveness. Master of Executions, Dark Apostles probably have places in this list.
I appreciate an army that fights from range. The 2 factions that have been roasting me lately are Imperial Knights and Dark Eldar, so I've been testing against them.
- Against Imperial Knights - giving them too many units to target reduces their impact on the game. Sure, they can blow away a unit of two each turn, but you still have a lot of stuff that can hurt them from a distance spread out across multiple units. Facing a list with 2 of them plus a Guard detachment, I was able to kill one the second turn and one the third turn. Ultimately lost the game to infantry and mortars, but could see what to do different next time (Bloodletter Bomb would have fixed it.)
- Against Dark Eldar - Disintegrator cannons are great against Predators, they are not so great against CSM squads. Again, the number of units reduces what your opponent can do with Raiders and Venoms, there was a lot of overkill especially from these units. There was a Cronos unit that charged one CSM squad and killed it before the rest of my army pounded them with lascannons. Won the game, but this was against I've lost to before (so I kind of knew what to expect.)
So my early impressions can be summed up as: MSUCSM succeed by reducing the impact of high-power, high-volume weapons common to 8th edition. While individual units suffer from the frailties of power armor in 8th, collectively, they can present an effective response to high-order threats in the game (especially at range.)
grouchoben wrote: Can we talk MSUCSMs for a minute? With cultists getting hit with the nerf (thunder)hammer, we are in the uncomfortable position of not having a competitive troops choice anymore. CSM probably come closest now, paying 15pts for markedly better stats.
To that end, what's your favoured squad composition? All said and done, I'll probably be running 68pt squads an awful lot (combi+chainaxe for the Champ), but there are a few other stand-out possibilities. Autocannon, Lascannon and 2 plasma, each clocking in at 75, 90 & 87pts, assuming no champ upgrades.
Of the three more expensive options, they each have a role to play. Auto is cheap as chips, and you won't mind the occasional -1 to hit from moving with the squad, because you weren't expecting it to do too much anyway.
Lascannon is a proper consideration now imo, as our havocs are rocking their new toy, and can't take the ablative wounds you generally want for lascannon infantry. Moving is a waste though, and you probably want rerolls if possible. Static but capable choice.
Double plas has the advantage of being able to move and shoot with no penalty, and can threaten a lot of units within 12". But they desperately need baby-sitting, and as soon as they are in optima range, are liable to be locked in CC.
Finally, it looks like Alpha Legion are still top dogs for our troops, conferring much-needed survivability, and a 9" extra deployment, so you can start a team in optimal position/range.
Anyone got any thoughts or suggestions they can add?
I'm also thinking about this, I think auto cannons might be the answer, 10 points a pop and if you have say 4-5 min squads those shots will add up. I was also wondering about missile launchers, flexible weapon, but double the cost.
Personally I'll take a min bat for red corsair and then alpha for the rest, currently trying to figure out the list.
In my ast match 1250 pts i did run the following MSU and a 10 man squad aswell due to beein Red corsair.
For 75 pts with a AC you get a squad that throws out 10 (12 if you also give out a combibolter for 77pts) with 3+ on 24" range.
The Autocannon as a multitool works better then the reaper for me, but that could just be because my opponent a lot of DE transports.
They also get ignored or overkilled.
CP is also a big thing and why not generate CP and have a swiss army knive unit aswell.
Auto canon is OK because it's cheap but it is not an impressive weapon overall, wh9ich is fine only because it's cheap. The reaper is 4 times the shots for double the cost. Since the army needs early game screen removal for the heavy hitting things like deep strikers and advancing demon engines, it's pretty clear what the optimal weapon is. The autocanon has the range advantage, but it isn't as ideal as you would think. With beta bolter discipline your aiming to get within 24" range anyway.
But this as always brings up a bigger point. If you have 1-2 units designated to zone denial and objective squatting in your backfield, take a cheap auto canon or a las canon, save points on the champ by keeping him stock. If your taking out screens and pressing the midfield objectives, take the reaper chain canon. Plenty of opportunity for both. Not taking the chain canons at all is a huge missed opportunity though.
Btw as a long time DE player myself I can tell you I could care less about the chain canon or autocanons vs my vehicles. Both are terribly inefficient for that job. One is easily outranged and the other is way to low volume and low damage to matter. You want to down DE vehicles quickly you assault them. They have no hit mods (barring an expensive strat) or invulns in assault. Or you can also use mortal wounds from things like smite.
Great reply techsoldaten, and interesting feedback.
You're spot on with a lot of what you say about MSU play style. We don't have access to many auras, and the new detachment ones are all locked to havocs, obits and daemonforged, so that's a problem. This play style also points to multiple cheap chaos lords, to provide auras and counter assault, so blade of the hydra and black mace spring to mind, as do a few of the new relics.
I was thinking of going double battalion too, but 4 lascannon, 2x2 plasma. Keep las in the backfield, one or two maybe deployed with the AL Strat in cover, and 2 plasma moving up with a lord. That or all auto cannon, depending on the rest of my list...
I tihnk MSU units of CSM are good. But I would like to say that even a reduced cap of strength of cap, a blob of 30 cultists can really spread out over a large area. If you are running Abby, they are really good because Abby makes them fearless plus gives them a very big operating range. The key thing is to cast delightful agonies on them to give them 5+ FNP. I did that to my 30 cultists, they weathered the combined firepower of 3 custodes bike lords with hurricane bolters. Later when I brought them back with tide of traitors, my opponent charged all 3 custodes into the blob. In a previous game where he did this to my blob of 20 corsairs, I didn't cast delightful agonies and he killed the whole blob. This time, with delightful agonies on, he failed to kill the whole blob despite all the hurricane bolter shots, plus all the awesome close combat attacks that 3 custodes bike lords can bring upon a unit. And to add insult to injury, the blob didn't run away because one model was within 12 inches of Abby.
Actually, the problem I now have is a slightly different one. My gaming group plays that the first floor of terrain like ruins cannot be seen through at all. This means that any unit can easily hide out of line of sight amongst the various terrain (doesn't matter if you are on second floor or an elavated view, if they are within the first floor of a ruin or building, you can't see them. This causes serious problems to CSM shooting as all of our ranged need line of sight. And this means that things like scouts can deploy into midfield easily without fear of being shot off the board by my shooting as long as they hide out of line of sight. And they protect an exposed custodes bike lord too because as long as the scouts are nearer to me, I can't target the custodes, nevermind I can't even see the scouts.
Chain cannon is really the way to go for MSUCSM squads. The autocannon is nice and cheap and points efficient for what it does, but it doesn't actually do that much. Autocannons make sense on Havocs due to the range. But the CSM need to get closer anyway. The Chaincannon is one of the most efficient weapons in the game for its cost, and in many ways is better in a CSM squad than on havocs due to the ablative wounds.
If you go back a few pages you can find my spreadsheets on the mathematical comparisons of all the heavy weapons. But to summarize:
- Chain Cannon is incredible and one of the best weapons in the game
- Chain cannon outperforms every other heavy weapon by a considerable amount, except for lascannons vs heavy tanks.
- Lascannon havocs are worthwhile if you're fighting heavy tanks despite their price.
- Autocannons are really efficient due to the cost and range. They are decent vs any target except landraiders.
- Missile launchers are terrible because frag missiles are really weak. Autocannons are a better all-around weapon. Could be worth taking 1 over an autocannon for flakkk missile strat. Not worth dropping a lascannon for.
- Heavy bolters are not very good. Their firepower is poor compared to the Chain cannon, even when you account for their points cost. And their range isn't enough. If you need serious anti-infantry, stick to chain cannons. If you need a general allrounder, go with autocannons instead. AC doesn't come in that far behind heavy bolter against hordes due to str7.
So MSUcsm should be Chain Cannon, and then a combi-bolter on the champ. Maybe a combi-plasma if you are going to have a re-roll 1's aura nearby. Any other heavy weapon is a poor return on points. The one exception being The Scourged trait might go well for Las+plas.
Great summary, @Drudge Dreadnought. Let’s also not forget that Havocs give Chaincannons access to Punishing Volley (perhaps going to become a gatekeeper for rushdown loists), and highly efficient Prescience, VOTLW, & EC.
Both chaincannon havocs as well as chaincannon MSU units will also benefit massively from The Purge's legion trait. Scratch some paint off an enemy unit and suddenly even the regular CSMs' chaincannons are getting a decent hit rate on the move. You lose out on VotLW, but the trait will apply when firing at any unit you manage to dent first. And re-rolling -all- hit rolls means moving and firing isn't so much of an issue anymore for the troops.
I’ve been musing about adding a Purge detachment, and the more I think about it the more it sprawls. It’s such a marvellously scaling trait, especially if you have a LEGION detachment that can light up target.
Soulforged pack of Blood Slaughterers, strikes me as a fun variation of that detachment. I really want to pair that with Termites of Berzerkers. Good, bad, or ugly?
Slaughterers dont need much help from Lord Discordants, but the advance/charge strat helps a tonne for their auto 6" advance. Berserkers in a termite has been a staple of my lsits for a while, and it always performs awesomely. Just start it on the table, otherwise deepstriking+charging can leave them out of the fight for way too long.
lindsay40k wrote: I’ve been musing about adding a Purge detachment, and the more I think about it the more it sprawls. It’s such a marvellously scaling trait, especially if you have a LEGION detachment that can light up target.
Omg they’re like Tau
Happy to see someone else considering the purge. I really do like the idea of a spearhead or devastation battery of purge havocs/oblits near a chaos lord. They have a huge volume of shots and if you have to use the strat to shoot into cc, you can reroll your 1s so you don’t hit your boys. Plus unless it gets FAQ’d, you have have mark of slaanesh on these guys to EC and double up. Losing VOTLW hurts, but this trait could be better with good target priority. Just deciding the rest of what I’d want to do is difficult. Rly like the idea of a tarpit unit locking my opp in CC and then shooting the hell out of them, what a super cool strat and a great trait
Having a good amount of psychic in the rest of the list is a consideration too. Getting off smites to light up a target seems great, though due to smite’s targetting restrictions probably just shooting your purge units last would be better.
lindsay40k wrote: I’ve been musing about adding a Purge detachment, and the more I think about it the more it sprawls. It’s such a marvellously scaling trait, especially if you have a LEGION detachment that can light up target.
Omg they’re like Tau
Happy to see someone else considering the purge. I really do like the idea of a spearhead or devastation battery of purge havocs/oblits near a chaos lord. They have a huge volume of shots and if you have to use the strat to shoot into cc, you can reroll your 1s so you don’t hit your boys. Plus unless it gets FAQ’d, you have have mark of slaanesh on these guys to EC and double up. Losing VOTLW hurts, but this trait could be better with good target priority. Just deciding the rest of what I’d want to do is difficult. Rly like the idea of a tarpit unit locking my opp in CC and then shooting the hell out of them, what a super cool strat and a great trait
Having a good amount of psychic in the rest of the list is a consideration too. Getting off smites to light up a target seems great, though due to smite’s targetting restrictions probably just shooting your purge units last would be better.
Would be worth us all doing some brainstorming on the best complements to the Purge. What units are best for marking targets? Psykers as you have mentioned. But other units that are good are ones with decent firepower that can reliably cause a wound, but have their own source of re-rolls or don't need them. Perhaps worth considering adding bolters to Daemon princes or other units that will be up close anyway?
lindsay40k wrote: I’ve been musing about adding a Purge detachment, and the more I think about it the more it sprawls. It’s such a marvellously scaling trait, especially if you have a LEGION detachment that can light up target.
Omg they’re like Tau
Happy to see someone else considering the purge. I really do like the idea of a spearhead or devastation battery of purge havocs/oblits near a chaos lord. They have a huge volume of shots and if you have to use the strat to shoot into cc, you can reroll your 1s so you don’t hit your boys. Plus unless it gets FAQ’d, you have have mark of slaanesh on these guys to EC and double up. Losing VOTLW hurts, but this trait could be better with good target priority. Just deciding the rest of what I’d want to do is difficult. Rly like the idea of a tarpit unit locking my opp in CC and then shooting the hell out of them, what a super cool strat and a great trait
Having a good amount of psychic in the rest of the list is a consideration too. Getting off smites to light up a target seems great, though due to smite’s targetting restrictions probably just shooting your purge units last would be better.
Would be worth us all doing some brainstorming on the best complements to the Purge. What units are best for marking targets? Psykers as you have mentioned. But other units that are good are ones with decent firepower that can reliably cause a wound, but have their own source of re-rolls or don't need them. Perhaps worth considering adding bolters to Daemon princes or other units that will be up close anyway?
Yeah Warp Bolters seem like they could be a good buy since Daemon Princes nearly never miss. Flamers were the first thing that came to mind for me due to being able to auto hit. Gonna have a read through the codex tomorrow see what I can come up with.
Would like to seek more views on how best to use Abby.
Let's get this out of the way first. Abby is a monster in melee. If you aren't looking to get him into combat. You are wasting 240 points of awesomeness. You might as well use the Purge renegade chapter in that case as a good substitute for Abby. And even within black legion, there are ways to get full rerolls. And going MSU generally means morale isn't an issue.
So, the issue with getting Abby into combat is that a LR is hideously expensive. Also, Abby in a LR wastes his buff aura until he can get out of the LR (at best turn 2 onwards).
Deep striking him in is another valid option. But! He is already 240 points, and to make it worthwhile, you need to deep strike him in with at least another 300 points or more worth of units so that his aura can buff those. And ultimately, he needs people deep striking in with him. No matter how good in cc he is, there is no way to gaurantee he will get the charge in after deepstrike. So, now the issue is that are you comfortable playing turn 1 with at least 500 or more points in deep strike reserve. Not to mention you need to be able to clear enough space so that Abby can deep strike in properly and him and his company can have good targets (whether for shooting or to charge). I think certain lists might work, but personally, I think against good lists or experienced opponents, this will be a problem. There is just too much risk of being shot off the board or counter charged after deep strike.
Abby marching up the board so far has been the best option. He gets to use all his auras. He makes all units near him better, and all units within 12 inches fearless is awesome, so you can run big blobs. But! The issue here is, his movement is 6, and short of warptiming him, you can't make it better. He works best in concert with a whole host of other units around him, that can all keep up.
I am coming to the conclusion that Abby works best when we move advance him and all of his units around him. That way, the entire sheebang can keep up, and he will get into combat that much faster. At the most, within 2 turns of move advance, Abby should be well into the midboard and in range to really threaten a great deal.
Here's the thing. Black legion trait is actually good for this. But only for rapid fire weapons. So, chain cannons are not so hot, and all heavy weapons aren't that great either. We could just risk it, but if Abby rolls well on advance, by turn 2, he will be leaving other units that only move 6 (like havocs) in the dust. This means, bolters, plasma guns. combi bolters. Or unless we are running some short of shooty daemon engine list. (Most daemon engines can move at least 8 inches or even more).
Anyway, more ideas would be great. Thats why I am asking how you guys are trying to make use of his awesome melee abilities. And lets face it, he is such a beautiful awesome model. I just can't bear to not use him.
Would be worth us all doing some brainstorming on the best complements to the Purge. What units are best for marking targets? Psykers as you have mentioned. But other units that are good are ones with decent firepower that can reliably cause a wound, but have their own source of re-rolls or don't need them. Perhaps worth considering adding bolters to Daemon princes or other units that will be up close anyway?
Baleflamer heldrakes could really help get the trait to kick in on your first turn. Also, Slaaneshi Havocs (perhaps with Prescience?) can light up their own target for a second volley using EC.
It should be noted, too, that the trait also applies in close combat. Couple that with the strat to fire into CC and you're giving your units that are already locked a leg up. Or light up a target and ignore it for the rest of the shooting phase if you're in decent charge range with a strong melee unit like a daemon engine. Or that warp bolter daemon prince. Hell, the more I think about it the stronger the trait seems to be!
How about Bikers with meltas and a power fist champ? A Rhino full of Zerkers with a sorcerer to throw a smite at the charge target? Zerkers with full re-rolls? Yes, please!
Would be worth us all doing some brainstorming on the best complements to the Purge. What units are best for marking targets? Psykers as you have mentioned. But other units that are good are ones with decent firepower that can reliably cause a wound, but have their own source of re-rolls or don't need them. Perhaps worth considering adding bolters to Daemon princes or other units that will be up close anyway?
Baleflamer heldrakes could really help get the trait to kick in on your first turn. Also, Slaaneshi Havocs (perhaps with Prescience?) can light up their own target for a second volley using EC.
It should be noted, too, that the trait also applies in close combat. Couple that with the strat to fire into CC and you're giving your units that are already locked a leg up. Or light up a target and ignore it for the rest of the shooting phase if you're in decent charge range with a strong melee unit like a daemon engine. Or that warp bolter daemon prince. Hell, the more I think about it the stronger the trait seems to be!
How about Bikers with meltas and a power fist champ? A Rhino full of Zerkers with a sorcerer to throw a smite at the charge target? Zerkers with full re-rolls? Yes, please!
Edit: mucked up my quote tags.
Alternativly, allied IW would perfectly synergize.
IW warlord and fearless cultists infront.
Not to mention the purge stratagem.
Purge Oblits or hellbrutes, IW havocs with high firerate or strength weaponry.
making someone other then Abaddon your warlord though DOOOES loose you those free yummy extra CPs, but might be worth it if you don't NEED CPs. IMHO Abaddon would be AMAZING if CSMs could take a chainsword AND bolt gun. charge up firing and then move into close combat fast. I'm actually wondering if even without the extra attacks from chainswords, it might be worth just rushing Black Legion CSMs into CC with Abaddon or even running a mix of boltguns and chainswords. use the bolt gun guys as meat sheilds for the CCW delivery..
BrianDavion wrote: making someone other then Abaddon your warlord though DOOOES loose you those free yummy extra CPs, but might be worth it if you don't NEED CPs. IMHO Abaddon would be AMAZING if CSMs could take a chainsword AND bolt gun. charge up firing and then move into close combat fast. I'm actually wondering if even without the extra attacks from chainswords, it might be worth just rushing Black Legion CSMs into CC with Abaddon or even running a mix of boltguns and chainswords. use the bolt gun guys as meat sheilds for the CCW delivery..
You could run BL Chosen. They get the chainsword AND boltgun and have +1A (and +1Ld but who cares because Abby) to boot. For only +1pt/model, too. No obsec, of course, and they'll take up elite slots. But if you're not going to worry about CPs anyway, the whole lot could be a vanguard detachment. Abby plus 15 ablative wounds, with every survivor adding +3 S4 attacks in CC for under 500 points. Issue is, can you get the whole lot to where you want it? 15 Chosen will die to a man if your opponent asks them politely. 10-man squads perhaps?
I haven't tried it yet because I'm still building them but I've also been thinking about how to get better use of Abaddon and get him into combat. The idea I've come up with troubles me aesthetically but I think it can work.
I plan to advance him in a huddle of bikers. I know the idea of him running alongside a bunch of motorbikes seems silly but it means no matter what his advance roll is, you will be able to keep up with him and keep him covered. The bikes don't have to advance so they will be shooting at full BS. And Ab can shoot his talon after advancing on 3+ too. Am I right in presuming he only gets 2 shots if he advances?
I decided to compare chosen to bikes:
A squad of 5 bikes, two with plasma, and a champ with combi plasma is 148pts
For 151pts you get 8 chosen, 3 with plasma 2 with combi bolters 3 with bolters
The bikes are putting out 20 bolter shots compared to 7 from the chosen. Both have 3 plasma shots but because the bikes aren't advancing you can double tap the plasma if a target presents itself and you can even risk overcharging because there's no -1.
The bikes have 10 T5 wounds, the chosen have only 8 T4 wounds.
Footslogging Abaddon up with this you're getting full rerolls on a lot of shots, you could go bigger with the bike unit or go for two units if you want more plasma.
And while the bikes aren't much of a melee threat you can have a rhino full of berserkers or something to rendezvous with Abaddon once he arrives in your opponents lines and peel the bikes off to go catch objectives or cause a nuisance.
I'm looking forward to trying it out. I think with the beta bolter rules bikes are really great now. 23pts for 2 T5 wounds and 4 bolter shots is really a bargain that I don't think terminators or chosen can compete with and the crazy move distance is just icing on the cake
I did a stupid and I now have a squad of Ghal Vorbak and the dude with blade-slaves coming my way for "Word Bearers" (rules-wise their keyword is yet to be decided).
What do I do with those guys?! It's not just about effectiveness of different choices - I'm already taking sub-optimal loadouts on other squads because they're bigger, badder remakes of models I did in my early teens - but even what to run them as is stumping me a bit. If I run them as 5/7 possessed the Shadowspear GP won't actually deserve that name anymore. 9 GP seem a tad too much, though I could build even bigger Greater Possessed and use all the others as a 9 man squad of Possessed, but then *those* GP would start to be Mutilator-sized or be confused with small Demon Princes. I could run the blade-slaves and Ghal Vorbak as a load of spawns, but they're still a bit on the tame side for spawns. Giant Chosen could be an option that works, but why some big guys in mutated armour give buffs to demons and others stand back and shoot combi-bolters would still be a head-scratcher, even with the right guns on the resin dudes.
I think it all lies in how you build your list, and how you handle it versus your opponent. If you play such a list well, Abby and his friends will be devastating. Abby and Plasma terminators are already devastating. Abby plus Plasma termis plus oblits are probably going to clear away a huge part of his board if they can all deep strike into where they want to.
) I would like to avoid that. Is it possible to pick no mark or an undivided one and will this gut me to no end (I suppose so...)?
I got to field a few predators and hellbrutes in my army. Not very mobile though. Abby was utterly amazing at fighting and tanks good damage too. Really really need to get into combat with him so that he doesn't waste his points. My Abby helped me go toe to toe with 3 custodes bike and 3 thunderhammer captains!