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 p5freak wrote:
Black legion chaos lord (with JP/on bike) with ghorisvex's teeth and WLT flames of spite. Mark of khorne. Play Votlw on him, and the soultearer portent prayer from a dark apostle for +2 to wound rolls. Thats 6 attacks hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s. Every wound roll of 4+ is 2 MW in addition to normal damage. Pick a second chainsword for one more attack. Cast diabolic strength on him for one more attack, and S+2. Pick a second chainsword for one more attack. Spend 3CP and fight again. Any more ideas how to improve him ?

Skip the second Chainsword and use a Bolt Pistol and use the Daemon Shells Strat instead.

 Roknar wrote:
Hold on, does the Black legion stratagem persist across multiple units? It effects "the unit that is closest to the enemy", but if they incompletely destroy their target, the closest unit changes and may not have shot yet.

IMO it’s very loosely worded, open to several interpretations, and clarification won’t make the first FAQ

Been out of the CSM game for awhile, came now that all the nice new stuff is out.

I still have like 18 DV Chosen that I never built. Thinking of finally converting them to all have plasma guns. That's 3 units of 6-man Chosen squads all with plasmaguns. What else should I bring to support them? Based on glancing through the codex, I was thinking making them Slaneesh for Endless Cacophony and sticking a sorcerer with prescience near them, maybe also a Dark Apostle near them. But then I'm worried about putting all my eggs in that basket, thats almost half my army in a 2000 game..

Chosen aren't bad at all imo. But that many might be too much of a skew. A lot of armies bring minuses to hit, so 18 plasma guns can be a real hinderance in that common situation. I'd model one squad with combi-bolters & chain axes for sure, a cheap and solid kit choice: shoot chaff, axe meq's.

Their big weakness is no obsec and no 5cp battalion contribution.

Where our chosen can't take storm shields like loyalist vets, spending too much on their wargear can be a trap as they die easily. It's worth taking at least a couple of ablative wounds in the squad. I'm trying to decide whether to give them all chainswords or chainaxes. Can't decide what I'll get the most use out of

I go for combibolters and chainswords on mine. The melee weapon is nothing but a nice fall back if they get charged in my experience or if they wanna clean up a nearly dead unit, and 3 sword attacks each is usually enough. Their best role in my past games was a super cheap source of massed bolter shots without bringing loads of bodies

Guys, HELP!
The only unit that allowed my roster to be competitive got nerfed to all hell. The Obliterator drop is no more! Those guys who removed 'any unit in 1 phase' are gone.

sushi2001 wrote:
Guys, HELP!
The only unit that allowed my roster to be competitive got nerfed to all hell. The Obliterator drop is no more! Those guys who removed 'any unit in 1 phase' are gone.

Erm, wait what?

Btw, can I give a regular CSM relic like intoxicating elixir to a named renegade character like Huron Blackheart?

Xirax wrote:
Btw, can I give a regular CSM relic like intoxicating elixir to a named renegade character like Huron Blackheart?

Erm so long he has the right mark.?

Obliterators are still there, @sushi2001, they just cost a bit more per shot (or rather, they will when an FAQ corrects the hilarious ‘still 65pts’ obvious typo), and in turn gain:
- more efficient defence against 1W and 3W weapons (though less efficient against 2W);
- ability to have an 18 shot unit that benefits even more from Prescience, VOTLW, EC, ect;
- ability to have a single model unit that can teleport into small gaps and shoot a character in the back;
- a Specialist Detachment that makes deploying them at the start viable, especially if they are of Nurgle;
- new support options that can pile on excellent buffs;
- new Renegade Chapters that can supercharge their Overwatch - or, exploit friendly tarpits & troll enemy tarpits.

They can’t be used and built around exactly as they were before, but their new incarnation has a hell of a lot more versatility.

Ok, so no. Darn.. hard to think of a target for second relic as red corsairs, there's only thst maelstorm' bite curiosity for the DV exalted champion model.. Huron doesn't have any mark..

It doesnt matter if huron had a mark or not. Named chrs can not take relics.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Xirax wrote:
Btw, can I give a regular CSM relic like intoxicating elixir to a named renegade character like Huron Blackheart?

Erm so long he has the right mark.?

Well, Relics can’t be given to any named characters at all.

Scanning through rules, though, this does raise an issue. If you’re using the Renegades rules from Codex CSM, then you have access to the non-LEGION Relics with any Renegade unnamed character. BUT:

Vigilus Ablaze p196 wrote:If your army is led by a Chaos Space Marine Warlord, you may give the appropriate Renegade Artefact from page 200 to a RED CORSAIRS, CRIMSON SLAUGHTER, PURGE, SCOURGED, BRAZEN BEASTS or FLAWLESS HOST CHARACTER from your army, instead of those presented in Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

That’s actually kind of sloppy grammar. A rules lawyer could make a case that you can’t take Codex CSM Relics on the above Renegade Chapters.

Probably an idea to inbox FAQs before the initial document goes live.

No, it really can't be lawyered that way.
May is premmisionary, not mandatory.

Oh, I wouldn’t agree with them, but it’s entirely plausible that a TFG could focus on ‘instead of’ and refuse to budge on that. Like I say, worth dropping a line to FAQs and asking for clarification.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Black legion chaos lord (with JP/on bike) with ghorisvex's teeth and WLT flames of spite. Mark of khorne. Play Votlw on him, and the soultearer portent prayer from a dark apostle for +2 to wound rolls. Thats 6 attacks hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s. Every wound roll of 4+ is 2 MW in addition to normal damage. Pick a second chainsword for one more attack. Cast diabolic strength on him for one more attack, and S+2. Pick a second chainsword for one more attack. Spend 3CP and fight again. Any more ideas how to improve him ?

Skip the second Chainsword and use a Bolt Pistol and use the Daemon Shells Strat instead.

prescience is still good in case you go up against marines. That's 4+ to generate DttfE as well. won't always come into play but devastating when it does, and still fights various -1 to hit debuffs. This does reauire concil of traitors though.
Also means I'm not convinced by the JP/bike as you'd need to stay close to two other characters and the DA is slow.
In terms of potential buffs there is also the chaos boon for +1 attack. at least in theory.
My concern is with requiring a dark apostle, it still bothers me more than it should that they don't have any mobility options beyond getting in a transport.

He doesn't require anyone though. People are just listing all the synergy but that doesn't mean you need to use them all for it to be good. Just by himself in a raptoral detachment charging from DS he is solid. With VotLW and flames of spit using mark of khorne to swing twice if needed he will punch well above his own weight.

Personally I find his biggest short coming is requiring him as your warlord in order to use flames of spite, because he is almost certainly dead the turn after he arrives.

I am personally glad the DA cannot take a jump pack, not for fluff reasons which would be cool but because of balance. The tool box is big enough, no reason why it should be brainless to put it all together.

 Red Corsair wrote:
He doesn't require anyone though. People are just listing all the synergy but that doesn't mean you need to use them all for it to be good. Just by himself in a raptoral detachment charging from DS he is solid. With VotLW and flames of spit using mark of khorne to swing twice if needed he will punch well above his own weight.

Personally I find his biggest short coming is requiring him as your warlord in order to use flames of spite, because he is almost certainly dead the turn after he arrives.

I am personally glad the DA cannot take a jump pack, not for fluff reasons which would be cool but because of balance. The tool box is big enough, no reason why it should be brainless to put it all together.

True, but the sword becomes much less powerful without the DA going from a 4+ for two wounds to a 5+. It does feel like a wasted opportunity.
As for the DA mobility, he is basically a a mortal herald of the gods, if anybody should get mounts it's them. And according to GW biker/jumppack/mounted lords/sorc are no longer a thing.
Those are only a thing due to their sisters of battle status of eternal Limbo. Although, that actually also enables the current DA to still take a bolter/combi as they can use the wargear options from the index with the new datasheet.

What do we reckon to Haarken World-Claimer? If he’s in an Outriders full of Warp Talons, his aura buff’s not getting used. If he’s dropping in with plasma Raptors, his aura buff’s not getting used. Raptors are so weak in melee, his aura buff’s actual effect is not very powerful. He can’t take the Raptorial Host WT. BUT if he’s in such a formation with a regular CL who does, he’s a pretty decent thumper. His 18” debuff could play well with Butcher dreads against high Ld armies that don’t think they need to take Morale precautions.

I'm genuinely thinking of doing abbadon with 30 terminators in a bringers of despair detachment backed up by a battalion of normal black legion dudes 2 X 5 CSM and a cultist blob with some oblits. Deepstriking 30 terminators and Abby would be hilarious re rolling all to hit would just anihilate enemy infantry then basically Wade into the enemy with the terminator blob of doom and let Abby take on vehicles.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
I'm genuinely thinking of doing abbadon with 30 terminators in a bringers of despair detachment backed up by a battalion of normal black legion dudes 2 X 5 CSM and a cultist blob with some oblits. Deepstriking 30 terminators and Abby would be hilarious re rolling all to hit would just anihilate enemy infantry then basically Wade into the enemy with the terminator blob of doom and let Abby take on vehicles.

That sounds awesome and paints such a beautiful tableau of death and destruction, it brings a tear to my eye.
But which part of the tabletop is going to hold enough space to let you drop 30 Terminators? Most likely they'll all land in your deployment zone. Especially if you're going second, as the enemy will have most likely killed most of what was there already.

So it hasn't been brought up yet, and I'd hesitate to think it was "good" but anyone have any thoughts on putting 3 oblits and a sorc or MoP into a landraider? >.>

I ask because we've pretty much agreed that a tree + dark apostate is probably worth it to protect a unit of on-field oblits. That's already 185 points. I'd probably say the land raider protects them better turn 1, allows them and their most important support piece (the sorc or MoP, I think it's a wash between the two which helps more) to be placed 3 inches better (this can be an issue with their 24 inch range). Adding to that, the landraider's firepower probably is worth the difference in points between the tree + apostate. I'm aware most lists can toast a landraider, but it's still not trivial to do so T1 and they probably can't then also toast the oblits.

Snugiraffe wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
I'm genuinely thinking of doing abbadon with 30 terminators in a bringers of despair detachment backed up by a battalion of normal black legion dudes 2 X 5 CSM and a cultist blob with some oblits. Deepstriking 30 terminators and Abby would be hilarious re rolling all to hit would just anihilate enemy infantry then basically Wade into the enemy with the terminator blob of doom and let Abby take on vehicles.

That sounds awesome and paints such a beautiful tableau of death and destruction, it brings a tear to my eye.
But which part of the tabletop is going to hold enough space to let you drop 30 Terminators? Most likely they'll all land in your deployment zone. Especially if you're going second, as the enemy will have most likely killed most of what was there already.

I'm honestly not sure but it just seems awesome, 120 bolter shots re roll to hit

Are raptors decent? I love the models and want to run two units of 5 each with 3 meltas for DS anti-tank.

They're alright as deep-strike special weapon delivery-system.
Just don't expect them to actually kill something in close combat.

 MinscS2 wrote:
They're alright as deep-strike special weapon delivery-system.
Just don't expect them to actually kill something in close combat.

Pretty much. Only with Brazen Beasts and that's honestly not even that good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
They're alright as deep-strike special weapon delivery-system.
Just don't expect them to actually kill something in close combat.

Pretty much. Only with Brazen Beasts and that's honestly not even that good.

*

With the BL stratagem they're 3 attacks each so long as you outnumber the target unit. They might be able to shift some msu ObSec unit camping somewhere or some ranged support, but even then, you're still spending a CP to do it.

On the mass terminators thingy : I think that with the points drop now, there is merit in trying it out. But I would consider having a whole army of termi armor.

The main thing dropping down would be Oblits and maybe Abby (depending on the situation). The rest of the army will be full terminators marking up the board. I actually think Alpha legion would better for such an army.

Start the terminators with the 9 inch scout move up. Abby gets warptimed move advance up to keep up. The whole mass then just moves forward and keeps firing. Then turn 2, when most of the chaff have been cleared, multiple Oblits drop in and take out all of the enemy heavy support.

All their small arms fire are basically useless against such an army, and the Alpha legion trait makes plasma weapons a two edged sword against them.

Its kinda cool. Its like a CSM version of the dark angels 1st company. Not sure how competitive it will be. But if you have mass terminators... its definitely worth a go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

drakerocket wrote:
So it hasn't been brought up yet, and I'd hesitate to think it was "good" but anyone have any thoughts on putting 3 oblits and a sorc or MoP into a landraider? >.>

I ask because we've pretty much agreed that a tree + dark apostate is probably worth it to protect a unit of on-field oblits. That's already 185 points. I'd probably say the land raider protects them better turn 1, allows them and their most important support piece (the sorc or MoP, I think it's a wash between the two which helps more) to be placed 3 inches better (this can be an issue with their 24 inch range). Adding to that, the landraider's firepower probably is worth the difference in points between the tree + apostate. I'm aware most lists can toast a landraider, but it's still not trivial to do so T1 and they probably can't then also toast the oblits.

A LR is almost 300 points. Its not a small thing.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Oh, I wouldn’t agree with them, but it’s entirely plausible that a TFG could focus on ‘instead of’ and refuse to budge on that. Like I say, worth dropping a line to FAQs and asking for clarification.

...

Have you actually played anyone like that...like...ever? I never have.