Gal Vorbak are kind of the second-choice model for possessed, so you'd have to let your opponent know that they're NOT that every game ... I say possessed. Decent unit these days, and very "Word Bearers".
You could distinguish the Greater Possessed with their paintjob. Some powerful OSL coming from their eyes, inside their armour, suggesting that they are vessels for a power far greater than the Possessed. Also, build up their bases so they loom over the rank & file.
Snugiraffe wrote: No obsec, of course, and they'll take up elite slots. But if you're not going to worry about CPs anyway, the whole lot could be a vanguard detachment.
Damnit, the Purge trait is rerolling to hits, which is so much worse than rerolling wounds that I initially thought. Ughhhhhhh.... Probably not worth giving up VOTLW in that case. What a shame, I really did like it when I thought it was rerolling wounds!
gruyere wrote: Damnit, the Purge trait is rerolling to hits, which is so much worse than rerolling wounds that I initially thought. Ughhhhhhh.... Probably not worth giving up VOTLW in that case. What a shame, I really did like it when I thought it was rerolling wounds!
Just ally in IW OR AL, there good to go.
Has the added benefit off some nice other combos.
gruyere wrote: Damnit, the Purge trait is rerolling to hits, which is so much worse than rerolling wounds that I initially thought. Ughhhhhhh.... Probably not worth giving up VOTLW in that case. What a shame, I really did like it when I thought it was rerolling wounds!
You're joking right? The Purge "re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by units with this trait that target enemy units that have lost one or more wounds already this turn" is probably the best of the Renegades, I'd argue that it's going to be the one we see in competitive builds. I ran it in a list with Contemptors and Oblits to try it out and my opponent was shocked at how powerful it was.
If you like re-rolling wounds then Arch-contaminator Death Guard are exactly that, super fun & powerful too IMO and experience.
gruyere wrote: Damnit, the Purge trait is rerolling to hits, which is so much worse than rerolling wounds that I initially thought. Ughhhhhhh.... Probably not worth giving up VOTLW in that case. What a shame, I really did like it when I thought it was rerolling wounds!
You're joking right? The Purge "re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by units with this trait that target enemy units that have lost one or more wounds already this turn" is probably the best of the Renegades, I'd argue that it's going to be the one we see in competitive builds. I ran it in a list with Contemptors and Oblits to try it out and my opponent was shocked at how powerful it was.
If you like re-rolling wounds then Arch-contaminator Death Guard are exactly that, super fun & powerful too IMO and experience.
I mean, sticking them beside a Chaos Lord/DP gives them rerolling 1s, already, so you are basically only getting rerolling 2s on the purge units. This is at the cost of losing VOTLW. I guess it depends on how you run your army and I could very well be wrong, but I think i'd rather stick an HQ near my guns and have access to another legion trait and/or VOTLW. Not to mention you do have to turn on your Legion trait. The Purge is fine, but it is just worse than what I thought is all
Binabik15 wrote: I did a stupid and I now have a squad of Ghal Vorbak and the dude with blade-slaves coming my way for "Word Bearers" (rules-wise their keyword is yet to be decided).
What do I do with those guys?! It's not just about effectiveness of different choices - I'm already taking sub-optimal loadouts on other squads because they're bigger, badder remakes of models I did in my early teens - but even what to run them as is stumping me a bit. If I run them as 5/7 possessed the Shadowspear GP won't actually deserve that name anymore. 9 GP seem a tad too much, though I could build even bigger Greater Possessed and use all the others as a 9 man squad of Possessed, but then *those* GP would start to be Mutilator-sized or be confused with small Demon Princes. I could run the blade-slaves and Ghal Vorbak as a load of spawns, but they're still a bit on the tame side for spawns. Giant Chosen could be an option that works, but why some big guys in mutated armour give buffs to demons and others stand back and shoot combi-bolters would still be a head-scratcher, even with the right guns on the resin dudes.
I have over 20 Gal Vorbak (converted to Nurgle) and use mine as Possessed, for Greater Possessed I have made 2 out of the Gellerpox dude with the big claw as they're a touch bigger than Gal Vorbak and fit the Nurgle theme. Honestly, you have 2 options: 1) run them all as Possessed, a unit of 7 is cool, stick them in a Rhino or Dreadclaw and stuff them down someone's flank with a few GP and a MoP). 2) IMO two of the Gal Vorbak are kinda meh models (the two smaller ones stood still with no mutations to their legs) so I would run them all as Greater Possessed as I think a new Possessed kit is due next year from inferences made from Jes Goodwin.
gruyere wrote: Damnit, the Purge trait is rerolling to hits, which is so much worse than rerolling wounds that I initially thought. Ughhhhhhh.... Probably not worth giving up VOTLW in that case. What a shame, I really did like it when I thought it was rerolling wounds!
You're joking right? The Purge "re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by units with this trait that target enemy units that have lost one or more wounds already this turn" is probably the best of the Renegades, I'd argue that it's going to be the one we see in competitive builds. I ran it in a list with Contemptors and Oblits to try it out and my opponent was shocked at how powerful it was.
If you like re-rolling wounds then Arch-contaminator Death Guard are exactly that, super fun & powerful too IMO and experience.
I mean, sticking them beside a Chaos Lord/DP gives them rerolling 1s, already, so you are basically only getting rerolling 2s on the purge units. This is at the cost of losing VOTLW. I guess it depends on how you run your army and I could very well be wrong, but I think i'd rather stick an HQ near my guns and have access to another legion trait and/or VOTLW. Not to mention you do have to turn on your Legion trait. The Purge is fine, but it is just worse than what I thought is all
The trait gives CSMMSU with heavy weapons and helbrutes extra versatility, because you get to re-roll your 3s as well. It also helps massively versus anything that reduces your to-hit roll even when you're not moving around, like Stormravens. And for Berzerkers it's lovely, as they can use their first attack to activate the trait, then roflstomp with their free extras. But yeah, losing VotLW still makes high-T targets annoyingly difficult to kill without bringing expensive weapons.
gruyere wrote: Damnit, the Purge trait is rerolling to hits, which is so much worse than rerolling wounds that I initially thought. Ughhhhhhh.... Probably not worth giving up VOTLW in that case. What a shame, I really did like it when I thought it was rerolling wounds!
You're joking right? The Purge "re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by units with this trait that target enemy units that have lost one or more wounds already this turn" is probably the best of the Renegades, I'd argue that it's going to be the one we see in competitive builds. I ran it in a list with Contemptors and Oblits to try it out and my opponent was shocked at how powerful it was.
If you like re-rolling wounds then Arch-contaminator Death Guard are exactly that, super fun & powerful too IMO and experience.
I mean, sticking them beside a Chaos Lord/DP gives them rerolling 1s, already, so you are basically only getting rerolling 2s on the purge units. This is at the cost of losing VOTLW. I guess it depends on how you run your army and I could very well be wrong, but I think i'd rather stick an HQ near my guns and have access to another legion trait and/or VOTLW. Not to mention you do have to turn on your Legion trait. The Purge is fine, but it is just worse than what I thought is all
On first read it sounds good sure... but if you really think about it it's bonkers good if you're clever about your shooting and how you put wounds on units. Sure some stuff will be 2+ to hit but most is 3+ or 4+ in Chaos armies so already it doubles the Lord effectiveness, that stuff that has a 2+ probably degrades too as it takes damage and the game goes on... Because Purge helps there too. On the Lord, forget him, you don't need him now and you don't need to worry about keeping units within his 6" bubble either. This is big because now we can take other HQs that buff in other ways. Sure you won't get VOTLW but now you can take a Sorcerer with Death Hex, Warptime, Prescience, etc who also uses Smite to get a wound on a unit that you'll be shooting in the next phase (and re-rolling all hits). Also, as of now the Purge can be Slaanesh, so your Terminators or chaincannon Havocs can possibly shoot twice re-rolling all hits. Slaanesh Purge Terminators with a Terminator Sorcerer could be insanely brutal.
In melee re-roll all hits means you can fish for 5+/6+s to get extra attacks from DTTFE too if needs be.
I think the big draw of the Purge is that you don't need a lord or prince babysitting them. Is that enough? I mean, a lot of my lists do not love an 80 point tax sitting there by shooting units. I'd rather have a sorc in that spot. A prince is good, obviously, but good in no small part because of his melee stats; so I want him babysitting even less.
I think the purge is spiffy. VotLW is very valuable, and you should have people to use it on. But if you already do, in another detachment, then you're not really losing out on it in your purge detachment.
I think the bigger question to ask is "does this outweigh -1 to hit"? I think in certain cases it might, though I find myself always having a difficult time answering "yes" to that question >.>
Have to say that a Red Corsairs 10man csm squad with 2x RCC, bolters and combi-bolter on champion with, MoS is a decent screen/shield drone removal unit with " there's more where they came from" and endless cacocphony strat. Yes it's 4cp total, but at T1 it has proven really valuable. Anyone else have any similar success?
So the purge trait activates on any unit that has lost a wound in any way this turn right? So that includes psychic phase from another detachment? So with a bit of psychic support from Tson you will be sprinkling mortal wounds across the enemy units, handing out free rerolls to your purge detachment
Continuity wrote: So the purge trait activates on any unit that has lost a wound in any way this turn right? So that includes psychic phase from another detachment? So with a bit of psychic support from Tson you will be sprinkling mortal wounds across the enemy units, handing out free rerolls to your purge detachment
Yes exactly. Especially useful if you encounter -1/-2 to hit units. For competitive lists I can see Ahriman and friends in there as per usual.
Thanks, guys, so possessed it is. I was just worried that people might find them to big compared to the new GPs. The Gellerpox Hulks are already planned as Greater Possessed for my Death Guard, so I will build some other flavour of GPs for my Word Bearers. Maybe a Khornate one based on the AoS Warboss.
Binabik15 wrote: Thanks, guys, so possessed it is. I was just worried that people might find them to big compared to the new GPs. The Gellerpox Hulks are already planned as Greater Possessed for my Death Guard, so I will build some other flavour of GPs for my Word Bearers. Maybe a Khornate one based on the AoS Warboss.
It’s my understanding that you can’t take any of the Daemonkin stuff as DG (or, for that matter, TS)
Here is a list I've been working on. Let me know if there are any combos I might be missing. Everything has mark of slannesh to try and be Slannesh mono faction for ITC, and to use the locus of slannesh to run and charge.
Red Corsairs Battalion - Soulforged Pack:
2xLord D's w/ baleflamers (1 w/ Master of Soulforges, 1 w/ Intox Elixer)
3x5xChaos Space Marines
3xMaulerfiends w/ Lashers
Red Corsairs Spearhead - Soulforged Pack:
Lord D w/ Baleflamer
3xVenomcrawlers
Chaos Daemons Supreme Command Detachment:
Daemon Prince of Chaos - Warlord/2xtalons/The Forbidden Gem/Celerity of Slaanesh
2xHeralds on Steeds
This leaves me with 122 points to throw an extra support character in or fiends. What do you guys think? I could put in a chainlord (without a priest or mark of khorne/taking warlord from my slaanesh prince), a sorc w/ Jump pack, or a 3 man squad of fiends to hold stuff in combat, a priest (will be left behind immediately). My only worry is that I currently have no unit to use endless cacophony or veterans of the long war on and so am missing out on 2 of the best CSM strats (Although to be fair I only have 8CP at the start of the game and I might just use them all on re-rolls)
gruyere wrote: Damnit, the Purge trait is rerolling to hits, which is so much worse than rerolling wounds that I initially thought. Ughhhhhhh.... Probably not worth giving up VOTLW in that case. What a shame, I really did like it when I thought it was rerolling wounds!
You're joking right? The Purge "re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by units with this trait that target enemy units that have lost one or more wounds already this turn" is probably the best of the Renegades, I'd argue that it's going to be the one we see in competitive builds. I ran it in a list with Contemptors and Oblits to try it out and my opponent was shocked at how powerful it was.
If you like re-rolling wounds then Arch-contaminator Death Guard are exactly that, super fun & powerful too IMO and experience.
I mean, sticking them beside a Chaos Lord/DP gives them rerolling 1s, already, so you are basically only getting rerolling 2s on the purge units. This is at the cost of losing VOTLW. I guess it depends on how you run your army and I could very well be wrong, but I think i'd rather stick an HQ near my guns and have access to another legion trait and/or VOTLW. Not to mention you do have to turn on your Legion trait. The Purge is fine, but it is just worse than what I thought is all
On first read it sounds good sure... but if you really think about it it's bonkers good if you're clever about your shooting and how you put wounds on units. Sure some stuff will be 2+ to hit but most is 3+ or 4+ in Chaos armies so already it doubles the Lord effectiveness, that stuff that has a 2+ probably degrades too as it takes damage and the game goes on... Because Purge helps there too. On the Lord, forget him, you don't need him now and you don't need to worry about keeping units within his 6" bubble either. This is big because now we can take other HQs that buff in other ways. Sure you won't get VOTLW but now you can take a Sorcerer with Death Hex, Warptime, Prescience, etc who also uses Smite to get a wound on a unit that you'll be shooting in the next phase (and re-rolling all hits). Also, as of now the Purge can be Slaanesh, so your Terminators or chaincannon Havocs can possibly shoot twice re-rolling all hits. Slaanesh Purge Terminators with a Terminator Sorcerer could be insanely brutal.
In melee re-roll all hits means you can fish for 5+/6+s to get extra attacks from DTTFE too if needs be.
gruyere wrote: Damnit, the Purge trait is rerolling to hits, which is so much worse than rerolling wounds that I initially thought. Ughhhhhhh.... Probably not worth giving up VOTLW in that case. What a shame, I really did like it when I thought it was rerolling wounds!
You're joking right? The Purge "re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by units with this trait that target enemy units that have lost one or more wounds already this turn" is probably the best of the Renegades, I'd argue that it's going to be the one we see in competitive builds. I ran it in a list with Contemptors and Oblits to try it out and my opponent was shocked at how powerful it was.
If you like re-rolling wounds then Arch-contaminator Death Guard are exactly that, super fun & powerful too IMO and experience.
I mean, sticking them beside a Chaos Lord/DP gives them rerolling 1s, already, so you are basically only getting rerolling 2s on the purge units. This is at the cost of losing VOTLW. I guess it depends on how you run your army and I could very well be wrong, but I think i'd rather stick an HQ near my guns and have access to another legion trait and/or VOTLW. Not to mention you do have to turn on your Legion trait. The Purge is fine, but it is just worse than what I thought is all
On first read it sounds good sure... but if you really think about it it's bonkers good if you're clever about your shooting and how you put wounds on units. Sure some stuff will be 2+ to hit but most is 3+ or 4+ in Chaos armies so already it doubles the Lord effectiveness, that stuff that has a 2+ probably degrades too as it takes damage and the game goes on... Because Purge helps there too. On the Lord, forget him, you don't need him now and you don't need to worry about keeping units within his 6" bubble either. This is big because now we can take other HQs that buff in other ways. Sure you won't get VOTLW but now you can take a Sorcerer with Death Hex, Warptime, Prescience, etc who also uses Smite to get a wound on a unit that you'll be shooting in the next phase (and re-rolling all hits). Also, as of now the Purge can be Slaanesh, so your Terminators or chaincannon Havocs can possibly shoot twice re-rolling all hits. Slaanesh Purge Terminators with a Terminator Sorcerer could be insanely brutal.
In melee re-roll all hits means you can fish for 5+/6+s to get extra attacks from DTTFE too if needs be.
gruyere wrote: Damnit, the Purge trait is rerolling to hits, which is so much worse than rerolling wounds that I initially thought. Ughhhhhhh.... Probably not worth giving up VOTLW in that case. What a shame, I really did like it when I thought it was rerolling wounds!
You're joking right? The Purge "re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by units with this trait that target enemy units that have lost one or more wounds already this turn" is probably the best of the Renegades, I'd argue that it's going to be the one we see in competitive builds. I ran it in a list with Contemptors and Oblits to try it out and my opponent was shocked at how powerful it was.
If you like re-rolling wounds then Arch-contaminator Death Guard are exactly that, super fun & powerful too IMO and experience.
I mean, sticking them beside a Chaos Lord/DP gives them rerolling 1s, already, so you are basically only getting rerolling 2s on the purge units. This is at the cost of losing VOTLW. I guess it depends on how you run your army and I could very well be wrong, but I think i'd rather stick an HQ near my guns and have access to another legion trait and/or VOTLW. Not to mention you do have to turn on your Legion trait. The Purge is fine, but it is just worse than what I thought is all
On first read it sounds good sure... but if you really think about it it's bonkers good if you're clever about your shooting and how you put wounds on units. Sure some stuff will be 2+ to hit but most is 3+ or 4+ in Chaos armies so already it doubles the Lord effectiveness, that stuff that has a 2+ probably degrades too as it takes damage and the game goes on... Because Purge helps there too. On the Lord, forget him, you don't need him now and you don't need to worry about keeping units within his 6" bubble either. This is big because now we can take other HQs that buff in other ways. Sure you won't get VOTLW but now you can take a Sorcerer with Death Hex, Warptime, Prescience, etc who also uses Smite to get a wound on a unit that you'll be shooting in the next phase (and re-rolling all hits). Also, as of now the Purge can be Slaanesh, so your Terminators or chaincannon Havocs can possibly shoot twice re-rolling all hits. Slaanesh Purge Terminators with a Terminator Sorcerer could be insanely brutal.
In melee re-roll all hits means you can fish for 5+/6+s to get extra attacks from DTTFE too if needs be.
Slaanesh purged? They are a nurgle warband.
And gw did not fix then to a mark, so what.
...Well I'm sure that will be fixed soon. Also, it butchers the narrative...its like having slaanesh thousand sons. Doesn't make sense.
gruyere wrote: Damnit, the Purge trait is rerolling to hits, which is so much worse than rerolling wounds that I initially thought. Ughhhhhhh.... Probably not worth giving up VOTLW in that case. What a shame, I really did like it when I thought it was rerolling wounds!
You're joking right? The Purge "re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by units with this trait that target enemy units that have lost one or more wounds already this turn" is probably the best of the Renegades, I'd argue that it's going to be the one we see in competitive builds. I ran it in a list with Contemptors and Oblits to try it out and my opponent was shocked at how powerful it was.
If you like re-rolling wounds then Arch-contaminator Death Guard are exactly that, super fun & powerful too IMO and experience.
I mean, sticking them beside a Chaos Lord/DP gives them rerolling 1s, already, so you are basically only getting rerolling 2s on the purge units. This is at the cost of losing VOTLW. I guess it depends on how you run your army and I could very well be wrong, but I think i'd rather stick an HQ near my guns and have access to another legion trait and/or VOTLW. Not to mention you do have to turn on your Legion trait. The Purge is fine, but it is just worse than what I thought is all
On first read it sounds good sure... but if you really think about it it's bonkers good if you're clever about your shooting and how you put wounds on units. Sure some stuff will be 2+ to hit but most is 3+ or 4+ in Chaos armies so already it doubles the Lord effectiveness, that stuff that has a 2+ probably degrades too as it takes damage and the game goes on... Because Purge helps there too. On the Lord, forget him, you don't need him now and you don't need to worry about keeping units within his 6" bubble either. This is big because now we can take other HQs that buff in other ways. Sure you won't get VOTLW but now you can take a Sorcerer with Death Hex, Warptime, Prescience, etc who also uses Smite to get a wound on a unit that you'll be shooting in the next phase (and re-rolling all hits). Also, as of now the Purge can be Slaanesh, so your Terminators or chaincannon Havocs can possibly shoot twice re-rolling all hits. Slaanesh Purge Terminators with a Terminator Sorcerer could be insanely brutal.
In melee re-roll all hits means you can fish for 5+/6+s to get extra attacks from DTTFE too if needs be.
Slaanesh purged? They are a nurgle warband.
And gw did not fix then to a mark, so what.
...Well I'm sure that will be fixed soon. Also, it butchers the narrative...its like having slaanesh thousand sons. Doesn't make sense.
So what gw butchered the narrative quite often.
Also like the typo situation, stop making me laugh.
urzaplanewalker wrote: Here is a list I've been working on. Let me know if there are any combos I might be missing. Everything has mark of slannesh to try and be Slannesh mono faction for ITC, and to use the locus of slannesh to run and charge.
Red Corsairs Battalion - Soulforged Pack:
2xLord D's w/ baleflamers (1 w/ Master of Soulforges, 1 w/ Intox Elixer)
3x5xChaos Space Marines
3xMaulerfiends w/ Lashers
Red Corsairs Spearhead - Soulforged Pack:
Lord D w/ Baleflamer
3xVenomcrawlers
Chaos Daemons Supreme Command Detachment:
Daemon Prince of Chaos - Warlord/2xtalons/The Forbidden Gem/Celerity of Slaanesh
2xHeralds on Steeds
This leaves me with 122 points to throw an extra support character in or fiends. What do you guys think? I could put in a chainlord (without a priest or mark of khorne/taking warlord from my slaanesh prince), a sorc w/ Jump pack, or a 3 man squad of fiends to hold stuff in combat, a priest (will be left behind immediately). My only worry is that I currently have no unit to use endless cacophony or veterans of the long war on and so am missing out on 2 of the best CSM strats (Although to be fair I only have 8CP at the start of the game and I might just use them all on re-rolls)
TBH I’d be inclined to drop a Herald and make it a Vanguard with multiple Fiend units. You’ve got a pretty good chance of executing multiple T1 charges, seizing an opportunity to keep something manacled to take more licks (and maybe even a Hysterical Frenzy) perhaps ought not rely on a single unit not rolling badly on its Advance.
I wouldn’t worry about lacking VOTLW, you’re going to get some good Daemonforges in. Lacking Warptime feels like more of a concern. How are you working out 8CP, I see ten? 3+5+1+1+3+1=14, -2 -1 -1 =10
gruyere wrote: Damnit, the Purge trait is rerolling to hits, which is so much worse than rerolling wounds that I initially thought. Ughhhhhhh.... Probably not worth giving up VOTLW in that case. What a shame, I really did like it when I thought it was rerolling wounds!
You're joking right? The Purge "re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by units with this trait that target enemy units that have lost one or more wounds already this turn" is probably the best of the Renegades, I'd argue that it's going to be the one we see in competitive builds. I ran it in a list with Contemptors and Oblits to try it out and my opponent was shocked at how powerful it was.
If you like re-rolling wounds then Arch-contaminator Death Guard are exactly that, super fun & powerful too IMO and experience.
I mean, sticking them beside a Chaos Lord/DP gives them rerolling 1s, already, so you are basically only getting rerolling 2s on the purge units. This is at the cost of losing VOTLW. I guess it depends on how you run your army and I could very well be wrong, but I think i'd rather stick an HQ near my guns and have access to another legion trait and/or VOTLW. Not to mention you do have to turn on your Legion trait. The Purge is fine, but it is just worse than what I thought is all
On first read it sounds good sure... but if you really think about it it's bonkers good if you're clever about your shooting and how you put wounds on units. Sure some stuff will be 2+ to hit but most is 3+ or 4+ in Chaos armies so already it doubles the Lord effectiveness, that stuff that has a 2+ probably degrades too as it takes damage and the game goes on... Because Purge helps there too. On the Lord, forget him, you don't need him now and you don't need to worry about keeping units within his 6" bubble either. This is big because now we can take other HQs that buff in other ways. Sure you won't get VOTLW but now you can take a Sorcerer with Death Hex, Warptime, Prescience, etc who also uses Smite to get a wound on a unit that you'll be shooting in the next phase (and re-rolling all hits). Also, as of now the Purge can be Slaanesh, so your Terminators or chaincannon Havocs can possibly shoot twice re-rolling all hits. Slaanesh Purge Terminators with a Terminator Sorcerer could be insanely brutal.
In melee re-roll all hits means you can fish for 5+/6+s to get extra attacks from DTTFE too if needs be.
Slaanesh purged? They are a nurgle warband.
And gw did not fix then to a mark, so what.
...Well I'm sure that will be fixed soon. Also, it butchers the narrative...its like having slaanesh thousand sons. Doesn't make sense.
So what gw butchered the narrative quite often.
Also like the typo situation, stop making me laugh.
I’d like to strongly advise against ordering a crate of Havocs and painting them lilac & green until we’ve seen the first FAQ. And even then, it’d be risky.
Binabik15 wrote: Thanks, guys, so possessed it is. I was just worried that people might find them to big compared to the new GPs. The Gellerpox Hulks are already planned as Greater Possessed for my Death Guard, so I will build some other flavour of GPs for my Word Bearers. Maybe a Khornate one based on the AoS Warboss.
It’s my understanding that you can’t take any of the Daemonkin stuff as DG (or, for that matter, TS)
This is correct. None of the new stuff can use Death Guard or Thousand Sons to replace <Legion>.
TBH I’d be inclined to drop a Herald and make it a Vanguard with multiple Fiend units. You’ve got a pretty good chance of executing multiple T1 charges, seizing an opportunity to keep something manacled to take more licks (and maybe even a Hysterical Frenzy) perhaps ought not rely on a single unit not rolling badly on its Advance.
I wouldn’t worry about lacking VOTLW, you’re going to get some good Daemonforges in. Lacking Warptime feels like more of a concern. How are you working out 8CP, I see ten? 3+5+1+1+3+1=14, -2 -1 -1 =10
It would actually be 9. Was missing 1 from the spearhead. 3+5+3+1+1=13, -3-1=9
I'm afraid of taking a bunch of small units (T4 4-8W at 5++) for the opponent to get easy kills for ITC scoring. Also, I'd prefer having 2 heralds as assassins are really stepping up and I'd hate to lose by +1 strength bubble to a lucky turn 1 shot. I'd also like to be able to go wide and have multiple locii hanging around. Do you think having 1-2 more fiends is worth all these issues? Have you had a lot of luck with them?
I could take a sorc on jump pack instead for some warp timing/Diabolical strength/Death hex stuff. Do you think that the sorc is worth dropping the fiends?
TBH I’d be inclined to drop a Herald and make it a Vanguard with multiple Fiend units. You’ve got a pretty good chance of executing multiple T1 charges, seizing an opportunity to keep something manacled to take more licks (and maybe even a Hysterical Frenzy) perhaps ought not rely on a single unit not rolling badly on its Advance.
I wouldn’t worry about lacking VOTLW, you’re going to get some good Daemonforges in. Lacking Warptime feels like more of a concern. How are you working out 8CP, I see ten? 3+5+1+1+3+1=14, -2 -1 -1 =10
It would actually be 9. Was missing 1 from the spearhead. 3+5+3+1+1=13, -3-1=9
I'm afraid of taking a bunch of small units (T4 4-8W at 5++) for the opponent to get easy kills for ITC scoring. Also, I'd prefer having 2 heralds as assassins are really stepping up and I'd hate to lose by +1 strength bubble to a lucky turn 1 shot. I'd also like to be able to go wide and have multiple locii hanging around. Do you think having 1-2 more fiends is worth all these issues? Have you had a lot of luck with them?
I could take a sorc on jump pack instead for some warp timing/Diabolical strength/Death hex stuff. Do you think that the sorc is worth dropping the fiends?
Not sure... I’ve been using both together to decent effect. If you budget 2CP to reroll their advance and charge, a single unit can work. Perhaps a Venomcrawler could free up the points for a sorcerer? (If you’re worried about snipers and Index units are allowed, a Steed would have nice Daemonkin synergy and drop the INFANTRY vulnerability)
Speaking of finding two CP, I make your totals:
Turning up +3
Battalion +5
Red Corsairs detachment with three Heretac units +3
Spearhead +1
Red Corsairs detachment with three units +1
Supreme Command +1
Subtotal 14
Soulforged Pack -1
Field Commander -1
Gifts of Chaos -1
Soulforged Pack -1
Total 10
Not sure... I’ve been using both together to decent effect. If you budget 2CP to reroll their advance and charge, a single unit can work. Perhaps a Venomcrawler could free up the points for a sorcerer? (If you’re worried about snipers and Index units are allowed, a Steed would have nice Daemonkin synergy and drop the INFANTRY vulnerability)
Speaking of finding two CP, I make your totals:
Turning up +3
Battalion +5
Red Corsairs detachment with three Heretac units +3
Spearhead +1
Red Corsairs detachment with three units +1
Supreme Command +1
Subtotal 14
Soulforged Pack -1
Field Commander -1
Gifts of Chaos -1
Soulforged Pack -1
Total 10
Red corsair trait says that you get +1 for having 3 units with trait and +3 INSTEAD if you have 3 CSM units, so they don't stack unf.
I'll try it both ways (sorc or fiends / sorc first because I don't have any fiends yet) and mess around with stuff. I'm not sure if I'd be willing to drop a Venomwalker with all the Synergies it has. The steed on the Sorc was an idea, but then he loses Infantry and so is harder to hide in ruins and jump to exactly where I need him, which I would take over making him -1 to wound from a vindicare. The steed also costs significantly more and doesn't fit in 122 points (127).
Not sure... I’ve been using both together to decent effect. If you budget 2CP to reroll their advance and charge, a single unit can work. Perhaps a Venomcrawler could free up the points for a sorcerer? (If you’re worried about snipers and Index units are allowed, a Steed would have nice Daemonkin synergy and drop the INFANTRY vulnerability)
Speaking of finding two CP, I make your totals:
Turning up +3
Battalion +5
Red Corsairs detachment with three Heretac units +3
Spearhead +1
Red Corsairs detachment with three units +1
Supreme Command +1
Subtotal 14
Soulforged Pack -1
Field Commander -1
Gifts of Chaos -1
Soulforged Pack -1
Total 10
Red corsair trait says that you get +1 for having 3 units with trait and +3 INSTEAD if you have 3 CSM units, so they don't stack unf.
Ooooh, it has to be foot troops or bikes or Helbrutes. You’re right, three Venomcrawlers (or Forgefiends) doesn’t qualify. Gah, why did they have to write our abilities backwards from a conclusion of ‘put everyone’s converted cavalry on notice for Squatting’
So I would actually consider changing that red corsairs to black legion and take the half damage warlord trait. Yes, it does expose the warlord, but you're distorting their target priority so hard by luring them to shoot at a lord discordant with twice the endurance. I'd also pick up the mechadentrils on one of them in place of the forbiden gem.
I like the mounted heralds, but I think a decent use of your 122 remaining points would be to boost them up to heralds on chariots; I think they are well worth the not-too-many-more points and handing out a few chain cannons to your msu marines.
I'm actually considering a very similar list, but with keepers of secrets in place of mauler fiends. I really have a soft spot for KoS and I feel they're decently survivable in a list with as much saturation of 'vehicle-like' stats as this one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I think the baleflamers are a trap; I get that you want an assault weapon because you're going to be advancing, but it still feels like a waste of points.
So I just got a my first game in with 3 x lord discordants. Honestly they preformed up to my high expectations, which is a good overall sign for their usefulness. Let me go into specifics
Durability: as expected this is his weakest area. 12 2+ 5++ wounds is enough to protect him from a stiff breeze, but dedicated firepower will wipe out Lord Discordants. I used the +1 wound 6+++ warlord trait on 1 guy as I was running red Corsairs over black legion for the CP, but now I’m seriously considering black legion even though I lose CP.
Offense: the lord discordant hits like a truck. I played knights today and he is certainly up to killing them. Daemon forge re-rolls plus 5+ death to false emporer triggers ensure the lord pumps out tons of attacks that will hit and wound fairly constantly. Even more so with buffs like diabloc strength, virluent touch, and Elixir. Point for point there isn’t anything as Efficient at killing as a lord discordant.
Speed: lord discordants are fast. You already knew this.
So if you get around the lord’s durbitly issues, he is well worth it. I think you’ll always have to run 3, and you’ll want something else to draw fire away from them (primarchs, Kitan, knight/, etc). Overall anyway you can increase the lord discordants ability to survive is a good thing as he wrecks face with only a little help.
gruyere wrote: Damnit, the Purge trait is rerolling to hits, which is so much worse than rerolling wounds that I initially thought. Ughhhhhhh.... Probably not worth giving up VOTLW in that case. What a shame, I really did like it when I thought it was rerolling wounds!
You're joking right? The Purge "re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by units with this trait that target enemy units that have lost one or more wounds already this turn" is probably the best of the Renegades, I'd argue that it's going to be the one we see in competitive builds. I ran it in a list with Contemptors and Oblits to try it out and my opponent was shocked at how powerful it was.
If you like re-rolling wounds then Arch-contaminator Death Guard are exactly that, super fun & powerful too IMO and experience.
I mean, sticking them beside a Chaos Lord/DP gives them rerolling 1s, already, so you are basically only getting rerolling 2s on the purge units. This is at the cost of losing VOTLW. I guess it depends on how you run your army and I could very well be wrong, but I think i'd rather stick an HQ near my guns and have access to another legion trait and/or VOTLW. Not to mention you do have to turn on your Legion trait. The Purge is fine, but it is just worse than what I thought is all
On first read it sounds good sure... but if you really think about it it's bonkers good if you're clever about your shooting and how you put wounds on units. Sure some stuff will be 2+ to hit but most is 3+ or 4+ in Chaos armies so already it doubles the Lord effectiveness, that stuff that has a 2+ probably degrades too as it takes damage and the game goes on... Because Purge helps there too. On the Lord, forget him, you don't need him now and you don't need to worry about keeping units within his 6" bubble either. This is big because now we can take other HQs that buff in other ways. Sure you won't get VOTLW but now you can take a Sorcerer with Death Hex, Warptime, Prescience, etc who also uses Smite to get a wound on a unit that you'll be shooting in the next phase (and re-rolling all hits). Also, as of now the Purge can be Slaanesh, so your Terminators or chaincannon Havocs can possibly shoot twice re-rolling all hits. Slaanesh Purge Terminators with a Terminator Sorcerer could be insanely brutal.
In melee re-roll all hits means you can fish for 5+/6+s to get extra attacks from DTTFE too if needs be.
Slaanesh purged? They are a nurgle warband.
And gw did not fix then to a mark, so what.
...Well I'm sure that will be fixed soon. Also, it butchers the narrative...its like having slaanesh thousand sons. Doesn't make sense.
So what gw butchered the narrative quite often.
Also like the typo situation, stop making me laugh.
Quoted from Vigilus Ablaze: "If your chosen Renegade Chapter does not have an associated Renegade Trait, you can instead pick the trait that you think best represents your army."
To me, this basically means that my Void Reavers CSM have the exact same trait as The Purge without actually being The Purge. Also, Void Reavers host raptorial outrider detachments just so happen to adopt a fighting style almost identical to the Flawless Host. Oh, and the souforged pack spearhead detachments fight just like the Brazen Beasts.
God-specific goes out of the window. I don't think GW is going to 'fix' this. Rather, this our recipe book for making delicious soup.
gruyere wrote: Damnit, the Purge trait is rerolling to hits, which is so much worse than rerolling wounds that I initially thought. Ughhhhhhh.... Probably not worth giving up VOTLW in that case. What a shame, I really did like it when I thought it was rerolling wounds!
You're joking right? The Purge "re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by units with this trait that target enemy units that have lost one or more wounds already this turn" is probably the best of the Renegades, I'd argue that it's going to be the one we see in competitive builds. I ran it in a list with Contemptors and Oblits to try it out and my opponent was shocked at how powerful it was.
If you like re-rolling wounds then Arch-contaminator Death Guard are exactly that, super fun & powerful too IMO and experience.
I mean, sticking them beside a Chaos Lord/DP gives them rerolling 1s, already, so you are basically only getting rerolling 2s on the purge units. This is at the cost of losing VOTLW. I guess it depends on how you run your army and I could very well be wrong, but I think i'd rather stick an HQ near my guns and have access to another legion trait and/or VOTLW. Not to mention you do have to turn on your Legion trait. The Purge is fine, but it is just worse than what I thought is all
On first read it sounds good sure... but if you really think about it it's bonkers good if you're clever about your shooting and how you put wounds on units. Sure some stuff will be 2+ to hit but most is 3+ or 4+ in Chaos armies so already it doubles the Lord effectiveness, that stuff that has a 2+ probably degrades too as it takes damage and the game goes on... Because Purge helps there too. On the Lord, forget him, you don't need him now and you don't need to worry about keeping units within his 6" bubble either. This is big because now we can take other HQs that buff in other ways. Sure you won't get VOTLW but now you can take a Sorcerer with Death Hex, Warptime, Prescience, etc who also uses Smite to get a wound on a unit that you'll be shooting in the next phase (and re-rolling all hits). Also, as of now the Purge can be Slaanesh, so your Terminators or chaincannon Havocs can possibly shoot twice re-rolling all hits. Slaanesh Purge Terminators with a Terminator Sorcerer could be insanely brutal.
In melee re-roll all hits means you can fish for 5+/6+s to get extra attacks from DTTFE too if needs be.
Slaanesh purged? They are a nurgle warband.
And gw did not fix then to a mark, so what.
...Well I'm sure that will be fixed soon. Also, it butchers the narrative...its like having slaanesh thousand sons. Doesn't make sense.
So what gw butchered the narrative quite often.
Also like the typo situation, stop making me laugh.
Quoted from Vigilus Ablaze: "If your chosen Renegade Chapter does not have an associated Renegade Trait, you can instead pick the trait that you think best represents your army."
To me, this basically means that my Void Reavers CSM have the exact same trait as The Purge without actually being The Purge. Also, Void Reavers host raptorial outrider detachments just so happen to adopt a fighting style almost identical to the Flawless Host. Oh, and the souforged pack spearhead detachments fight just like the Brazen Beasts.
God-specific goes out of the window. I don't think GW is going to 'fix' this. Rather, this our recipe book for making delicious soup.
Salt donkey wrote: So I just got a my first game in with 3 x lord discordants. Honestly they preformed up to my high expectations, which is a good overall sign for their usefulness. Let me go into specifics
Durability: as expected this is his weakest area. 12 2+ 5++ wounds is enough to protect him from a stiff breeze, but dedicated firepower will wipe out Lord Discordants. I used the +1 wound 6+++ warlord trait on 1 guy as I was running red Corsairs over black legion for the CP, but now I’m seriously considering black legion even though I lose CP.
Offense: the lord discordant hits like a truck. I played knights today and he is certainly up to killing them. Daemon forge re-rolls plus 5+ death to false emporer triggers ensure the lord pumps out tons of attacks that will hit and wound fairly constantly. Even more so with buffs like diabloc strength, virluent touch, and Elixir. Point for point there isn’t anything as Efficient at killing as a lord discordant.
Speed: lord discordants are fast. You already knew this.
So if you get around the lord’s durbitly issues, he is well worth it. I think you’ll always have to run 3, and you’ll want something else to draw fire away from them (primarchs, Kitan, knight/, etc). Overall anyway you can increase the lord discordants ability to survive is a good thing as he wrecks face with only a little help.
I guess if we want to go with LD and not be BL, the FNPWT or at the very least a -1 to be hit DA prayer is a strong play, especially if we’re not keen on taking loads of the same character
If your budget, hobby pace, or mindset only allow for one LD and you want fast Daemon Engines, give him an endurance WT and a Warpsmith the Soulforged one
If your budget, hobby pace, or mindset only allow for one LD and you want fast Daemon Engines, give him an endurance WT and a Warpsmith the Soulforged one
I'm glad you posted this. I was beginning to get the impression that I was the only one who hadn't found the big bargain basket full of LDs...
Guys I've been tempted to run a Black Legion/ Daemon combined army for super fluffy Aspiring BL Chaos Lord starting to pick up momentum for his own crusade.
Now do the Chaos Daemon Heralds Locus ability (+1 str to daemons with same mark) WORK on the CSM daemon units? (demon engines, daemon units like oblits and warp talons?)
And vise versa do CSM buffs which target something with a specific mark also affect Chaos Daemon units?
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: Guys I've been tempted to run a Black Legion/ Daemon combined army for super fluffy Aspiring BL Chaos Lord starting to pick up momentum for his own crusade.
Now do the Chaos Daemon Heralds Locus ability (+1 str to daemons with same mark) WORK on the CSM daemon units? (demon engines, daemon units like oblits and warp talons?)
And vise versa do CSM buffs which target something with a specific mark also affect Chaos Daemon units?
MARK and DEITY are mostly interchangeable once the game begins. They’re a specific exeption to the ‘you may well give your Craftworld and Coven the same name, but they’re still not on speaking terms’ rule. So:
Chaos Daemons: all aura buffs that affect <MARK/DEITY> DAEMON units can benefit Astartes; Stratagems that create such auras need to be generated by a CD unit (a World Eaters Greater Possessed cannot be the origin of a Locus of Wrath).
CSMDP: aura buff affects all <MARK/DEITY> DAEMON units, regardless of origin
CSM GrPo: aura buff only affects <MARK> <LEGION> DAEMON units; a new variation on buffs that’s going to complicate Daemonkin lists
What is the Flawless Host trait again? I’m considering some FH Daemon Princes with a couple small infantry blocks, so I’m curious.
Found it on 1d4chan. So basically...Magnus, Mortarion, Kytan Ravager, two Flawless Host Daemon Princes and minimum sized Flawless Host Marine squads to be a CP battery. Add in “field commander” to the Flawless Host Princes and watch blended hilarity ensue. Will be about 2k in points, maybe a bit less.
Death to the False Emperor against everything. It also stacks with DttFE so you still do more damage against Imperium.
I'm loving the look of the Lord Discordant but I can't bring myself to run more than 1, and I don't think running 1 on it's own would be effective. I might have to kitbash a Warpsmith for my Soulforged Pack.
timetowaste85 wrote: What is the Flawless Host trait again? I’m considering some FH Daemon Princes with a couple small infantry blocks, so I’m curious.
Found it on 1d4chan. So basically...Magnus, Mortarion, Kytan Ravager, two Flawless Host Daemon Princes and minimum sized Flawless Host Marine squads to be a CP battery. Add in “field commander” to the Flawless Host Princes and watch blended hilarity ensue. Will be about 2k in points, maybe a bit less.
FH trait is generate one additional attack in close combat for every 6+ to hit you roll. This stacks with DttFE. It's extra cool fun on a DP with the FH warlord trait, as the WT turns the one additional attack to three additional attacks. Get your +1s from prescience and the Dark Apostle (if you can get him to keep up) and enjoy the added fun the FH strat gives you (re-roll all hit rolls in CC). Unfortunately, this does mean you need to make the FH DP the warlord. And you can only get the +3 on one model. Not sure it will really stand out much in your Daemon Primarch party.
I like the idea of the FH prince, but I'm beginning to think it's more of a party trick for smaller games.
Binabik15 wrote: Thanks, guys, so possessed it is. I was just worried that people might find them to big compared to the new GPs. The Gellerpox Hulks are already planned as Greater Possessed for my Death Guard, so I will build some other flavour of GPs for my Word Bearers. Maybe a Khornate one based on the AoS Warboss.
It’s my understanding that you can’t take any of the Daemonkin stuff as DG (or, for that matter, TS)
Binabik15 wrote: Thanks, guys, so possessed it is. I was just worried that people might find them to big compared to the new GPs. The Gellerpox Hulks are already planned as Greater Possessed for my Death Guard, so I will build some other flavour of GPs for my Word Bearers. Maybe a Khornate one based on the AoS Warboss.
It’s my understanding that you can’t take any of the Daemonkin stuff as DG (or, for that matter, TS)
This is correct. None of the new stuff can use Death Guard or Thousand Sons to replace <Legion>.
Ok, I meant "the Greater Possessed that are totally not part of the Death Guard but like to hang out with the not-Death Guard bikers and Lord on bike that I made from parts of dozens of kits in a labour of love only to be dropped by GW when DG got a codex, as well as the Terminator sorcerer I used left-over Deathshroud bits on and the havoc fire support squad I'll do with those tasty new missile launchers...and stuff"
My DG are a splinter warband that broke from the Legion, led by a guy who might be a former Deathshroud and the only reason Mortarion hasn't put the boot in so far is the fact that they managed to corrupt some small warbands from IW stock during a campaign and that ticks Perturabo off even more than Mortarion himself is.
Together with their R&H support I don't even know how to build that army anymore. On the flip side I have a chance to ally some monstrous Oblits now and chose between a billion traits for those not-DG guys.
Together with their R&H support I don't even know how to build that army anymore.
By buying the FW astra militarum index, and despairing, until you realise that you can spam your elites and mortar teams.
To get a halfway (actually that is a lie nearly halfway) decent list.
timetowaste85 wrote: What about that field commander ability for 1CP? Use it for both princes and have two field commanders smashing face.
The field commander stratagem only lets you choose warlord traits that are specific to a specialist detachment (like the host raptorial one for a 7" charge for jump pack units, or the 2" movement bonus for daemon engines in the soulforged pack).
No multiple 'true' warlord traits for anyone who isn't Black Legion
gruyere wrote: Damnit, the Purge trait is rerolling to hits, which is so much worse than rerolling wounds that I initially thought. Ughhhhhhh.... Probably not worth giving up VOTLW in that case. What a shame, I really did like it when I thought it was rerolling wounds!
You're joking right? The Purge "re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by units with this trait that target enemy units that have lost one or more wounds already this turn" is probably the best of the Renegades, I'd argue that it's going to be the one we see in competitive builds. I ran it in a list with Contemptors and Oblits to try it out and my opponent was shocked at how powerful it was.
If you like re-rolling wounds then Arch-contaminator Death Guard are exactly that, super fun & powerful too IMO and experience.
I mean, sticking them beside a Chaos Lord/DP gives them rerolling 1s, already, so you are basically only getting rerolling 2s on the purge units. This is at the cost of losing VOTLW. I guess it depends on how you run your army and I could very well be wrong, but I think i'd rather stick an HQ near my guns and have access to another legion trait and/or VOTLW. Not to mention you do have to turn on your Legion trait. The Purge is fine, but it is just worse than what I thought is all
On first read it sounds good sure... but if you really think about it it's bonkers good if you're clever about your shooting and how you put wounds on units. Sure some stuff will be 2+ to hit but most is 3+ or 4+ in Chaos armies so already it doubles the Lord effectiveness, that stuff that has a 2+ probably degrades too as it takes damage and the game goes on... Because Purge helps there too. On the Lord, forget him, you don't need him now and you don't need to worry about keeping units within his 6" bubble either. This is big because now we can take other HQs that buff in other ways. Sure you won't get VOTLW but now you can take a Sorcerer with Death Hex, Warptime, Prescience, etc who also uses Smite to get a wound on a unit that you'll be shooting in the next phase (and re-rolling all hits). Also, as of now the Purge can be Slaanesh, so your Terminators or chaincannon Havocs can possibly shoot twice re-rolling all hits. Slaanesh Purge Terminators with a Terminator Sorcerer could be insanely brutal.
In melee re-roll all hits means you can fish for 5+/6+s to get extra attacks from DTTFE too if needs be.
Slaanesh purged? They are a nurgle warband.
And gw did not fix then to a mark, so what.
...Well I'm sure that will be fixed soon. Also, it butchers the narrative...its like having slaanesh thousand sons. Doesn't make sense.
So what gw butchered the narrative quite often.
Also like the typo situation, stop making me laugh.
The factions are meant to represent styles, not necessarily specific groups (unless you personally want it to for your army.) Hell you could paint your dudes blue, call them The Spank Monkeys and use iron legion rules. This allows people to make their own chapters/warbands ECT. And if that isn't obvious enough it's even written in the rules that you can do that. I would never force someone or play with anyone who thought paint scheme dictated rules.
To me the only good way to run 1 lord discordant is...
Black legion warlord w/ half damage trait
Artifact that decreases its bs by 1 to increase its weapons dmg by 1.
Baleflamer because d6 18" autohitting str 6 3 flat dmg attacks is nasty as gak vs so many different armies....
It becomes an incredibly dangerous and powerful unit with crazy levels of speed and durability. An opponent who doesnt known what it is will learn quickly and if they do they will target it quickly. Give it mark of nurgle, put a sorcerer on bike and a dark apostle near it to give it -1 to hit if you dont go first, -2 if you do, and run it with venom crawlers and defilers. Profit and enjoy.
Hmm. RAW, Flawless Host’s Death to the False Everyone isn’t buffed by Icon of Excess. Given their vanilla allegiance is Slaaneshi, I’d like to ask anyone with the inclination to drop 40kfaqs a line about that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote: To me the only good way to run 1 lord discordant is...
Black legion warlord w/ half damage trait
Artifact that decreases its bs by 1 to increase its weapons dmg by 1.
Baleflamer because d6 18" autohitting str 6 3 flat dmg attacks is nasty as gak vs so many different armies....
It becomes an incredibly dangerous and powerful unit with crazy levels of speed and durability. An opponent who doesnt known what it is will learn quickly and if they do they will target it quickly. Give it mark of nurgle, put a sorcerer on bike and a dark apostle near it to give it -1 to hit if you dont go first, -2 if you do, and run it with venom crawlers and defilers. Profit and enjoy.
Yeah, my army is from a Word Bearers Forge world and I’m getting one, but not expecting it to get much use outside of smaller games where it can conceivably survive a TAC army’s firepower, or Cities of Death games with plenty of LOS blocking terrain.
Anyone fancy running a Lord Discordant with the 2" extra movement warlord trait and Warptiming him into the enemy turn 1? He'd move 14" twice, if you run the run-and-charge relic he can run an additional 3.5" for a 31.5" move before charge rolls turn 1. That's pretty fast for something that ridiculously killy, especially if you add something like an allied Tzaangor bomb.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Anyone fancy running a Lord Discordant with the 2" extra movement warlord trait and Warptiming him into the enemy turn 1? He'd move 14" twice, if you run the run-and-charge relic he can run an additional 3.5" for a 31.5" move before charge rolls turn 1. That's pretty fast for something that ridiculously killy, especially if you add something like an allied Tzaangor bomb.
Moving 12” twice is perfectly fine to get in the enemy’s face, and when doing so I’d prefer to focus on endurance. That means either BLWT to halve damage, or loads of -1’s to be hit, or Fiends of Slaanesh forcing a screen to be your human shields.
The strength of the +2” aura is in getting a cavalcade of giant death robots up the board, and the best multipliers for that will be:
- the aura bearer surviving to T2 so it can give them a total of +4” (easily doable on a Warpsmith who makes use of LOS blocking against snipers and advances on T2 to be wishing shouting distance of the mechs) (also this enables an endurance WTLD to go ahead and trot 28”)
- Gnarlmaw or Daemons of Slaanesh enabling those that roll high on their Advances to charge on T1
- using Warptime on the slower elements of a horde (Defilers, low Advancers) to keep the tsunami hitting as a crushing wave
- using it with Warptime and -1 prayer to launch a Lord of Skulls or Kytan
Also please note the advance + charge thing is a Stratagem, not Relic. If you’re going to Boromir with a LD, give it the serpents
gruyere wrote: Damnit, the Purge trait is rerolling to hits, which is so much worse than rerolling wounds that I initially thought. Ughhhhhhh.... Probably not worth giving up VOTLW in that case. What a shame, I really did like it when I thought it was rerolling wounds!
You're joking right? The Purge "re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by units with this trait that target enemy units that have lost one or more wounds already this turn" is probably the best of the Renegades, I'd argue that it's going to be the one we see in competitive builds. I ran it in a list with Contemptors and Oblits to try it out and my opponent was shocked at how powerful it was.
If you like re-rolling wounds then Arch-contaminator Death Guard are exactly that, super fun & powerful too IMO and experience.
I mean, sticking them beside a Chaos Lord/DP gives them rerolling 1s, already, so you are basically only getting rerolling 2s on the purge units. This is at the cost of losing VOTLW. I guess it depends on how you run your army and I could very well be wrong, but I think i'd rather stick an HQ near my guns and have access to another legion trait and/or VOTLW. Not to mention you do have to turn on your Legion trait. The Purge is fine, but it is just worse than what I thought is all
On first read it sounds good sure... but if you really think about it it's bonkers good if you're clever about your shooting and how you put wounds on units. Sure some stuff will be 2+ to hit but most is 3+ or 4+ in Chaos armies so already it doubles the Lord effectiveness, that stuff that has a 2+ probably degrades too as it takes damage and the game goes on... Because Purge helps there too. On the Lord, forget him, you don't need him now and you don't need to worry about keeping units within his 6" bubble either. This is big because now we can take other HQs that buff in other ways. Sure you won't get VOTLW but now you can take a Sorcerer with Death Hex, Warptime, Prescience, etc who also uses Smite to get a wound on a unit that you'll be shooting in the next phase (and re-rolling all hits). Also, as of now the Purge can be Slaanesh, so your Terminators or chaincannon Havocs can possibly shoot twice re-rolling all hits. Slaanesh Purge Terminators with a Terminator Sorcerer could be insanely brutal.
In melee re-roll all hits means you can fish for 5+/6+s to get extra attacks from DTTFE too if needs be.
Slaanesh purged? They are a nurgle warband.
And gw did not fix then to a mark, so what.
...Well I'm sure that will be fixed soon. Also, it butchers the narrative...its like having slaanesh thousand sons. Doesn't make sense.
So what gw butchered the narrative quite often.
Also like the typo situation, stop making me laugh.
The factions are meant to represent styles, not necessarily specific groups (unless you personally want it to for your army.) Hell you could paint your dudes blue, call them The Spank Monkeys and use iron legion rules. This allows people to make their own chapters/warbands ECT. And if that isn't obvious enough it's even written in the rules that you can do that. I would never force someone or play with anyone who thought paint scheme dictated rules.
Exactly. I really want to run a Possessed melee list for fun casual games, I’ll prob use purge or flawless host rules for them depending on which I fancy. I’m not going to collect a whole new pink/purple Slaanesh army just to try different rules. GW already gets enough of my monthly pay packet as is!
gruyere wrote: Damnit, the Purge trait is rerolling to hits, which is so much worse than rerolling wounds that I initially thought. Ughhhhhhh.... Probably not worth giving up VOTLW in that case. What a shame, I really did like it when I thought it was rerolling wounds!
You're joking right? The Purge "re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by units with this trait that target enemy units that have lost one or more wounds already this turn" is probably the best of the Renegades, I'd argue that it's going to be the one we see in competitive builds. I ran it in a list with Contemptors and Oblits to try it out and my opponent was shocked at how powerful it was.
If you like re-rolling wounds then Arch-contaminator Death Guard are exactly that, super fun & powerful too IMO and experience.
I mean, sticking them beside a Chaos Lord/DP gives them rerolling 1s, already, so you are basically only getting rerolling 2s on the purge units. This is at the cost of losing VOTLW. I guess it depends on how you run your army and I could very well be wrong, but I think i'd rather stick an HQ near my guns and have access to another legion trait and/or VOTLW. Not to mention you do have to turn on your Legion trait. The Purge is fine, but it is just worse than what I thought is all
On first read it sounds good sure... but if you really think about it it's bonkers good if you're clever about your shooting and how you put wounds on units. Sure some stuff will be 2+ to hit but most is 3+ or 4+ in Chaos armies so already it doubles the Lord effectiveness, that stuff that has a 2+ probably degrades too as it takes damage and the game goes on... Because Purge helps there too. On the Lord, forget him, you don't need him now and you don't need to worry about keeping units within his 6" bubble either. This is big because now we can take other HQs that buff in other ways. Sure you won't get VOTLW but now you can take a Sorcerer with Death Hex, Warptime, Prescience, etc who also uses Smite to get a wound on a unit that you'll be shooting in the next phase (and re-rolling all hits). Also, as of now the Purge can be Slaanesh, so your Terminators or chaincannon Havocs can possibly shoot twice re-rolling all hits. Slaanesh Purge Terminators with a Terminator Sorcerer could be insanely brutal.
In melee re-roll all hits means you can fish for 5+/6+s to get extra attacks from DTTFE too if needs be.
Slaanesh purged? They are a nurgle warband.
And gw did not fix then to a mark, so what.
...Well I'm sure that will be fixed soon. Also, it butchers the narrative...its like having slaanesh thousand sons. Doesn't make sense.
So what gw butchered the narrative quite often.
Also like the typo situation, stop making me laugh.
Quoted from Vigilus Ablaze: "If your chosen Renegade Chapter does not have an associated Renegade Trait, you can instead pick the trait that you think best represents your army."
To me, this basically means that my Void Reavers CSM have the exact same trait as The Purge without actually being The Purge. Also, Void Reavers host raptorial outrider detachments just so happen to adopt a fighting style almost identical to the Flawless Host. Oh, and the souforged pack spearhead detachments fight just like the Brazen Beasts.
God-specific goes out of the window. I don't think GW is going to 'fix' this. Rather, this our recipe book for making delicious soup.
You can always choose to use difference chapter tactics- paint scheme doesn't really matter so people with their own paint schemes can play what they want.
However, the flawless host have been a Slaanesh dedicated warband for quite some time. I think when I started in 5 edition they were a slaanesh warband. I don't think having khorne marked flawless host guys is going to last long, and I personally wouldn't do it- even though you could have really cool combos!
Hopefully questions about the new renegade chapter's mark restrictions will be answered soon. Its seems apparent in the fluff that the Flawless Host are Slaanesh. Brazen Beasts are khorne, Scourged are Tzeentch, and the Purged are Nurgle. I think its an oversight that those restrictions aren't in the codex/campaign book.
However, until its fixed (if it is ever fixed), I wouldn't be too bothered by someone having berzerkers in a flawless host list, for example. I'd furrow my brow and keep playing.
lindsay40k wrote: Also please note the advance + charge thing is a Stratagem, not Relic. If you’re going to Boromir with a LD, give it the serpents
There's the Codex Khorne relic that lets you charge after advancing and gives rerolls to charge. The +2" trait can also be taken without making the Lord Discordant your Warlord. It does give him an awful lot of defense though.
Has anyone actually used the Proteus Pattern FW guns on their Havocs yet as stand-in Reapers? I'm a pretty mediocre hobbyist but I worry about their compatibility. That said, Reapers are going for $12-15 a piece on Ebay which is just offensively stupid.
Damnit, the Purge trait is rerolling to hits, which is so much worse than rerolling wounds that I initially thought. Ughhhhhhh.... Probably not worth giving up VOTLW in that case. What a shame, I really did like it when I thought it was rerolling wounds!
You're joking right? The Purge "re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by units with this trait that target enemy units that have lost one or more wounds already this turn" is probably the best of the Renegades, I'd argue that it's going to be the one we see in competitive builds. I ran it in a list with Contemptors and Oblits to try it out and my opponent was shocked at how powerful it was.
If you like re-rolling wounds then Arch-contaminator Death Guard are exactly that, super fun & powerful too IMO and experience.
I mean, sticking them beside a Chaos Lord/DP gives them rerolling 1s, already, so you are basically only getting rerolling 2s on the purge units. This is at the cost of losing VOTLW. I guess it depends on how you run your army and I could very well be wrong, but I think i'd rather stick an HQ near my guns and have access to another legion trait and/or VOTLW. Not to mention you do have to turn on your Legion trait. The Purge is fine, but it is just worse than what I thought is all
On first read it sounds good sure... but if you really think about it it's bonkers good if you're clever about your shooting and how you put wounds on units. Sure some stuff will be 2+ to hit but most is 3+ or 4+ in Chaos armies so already it doubles the Lord effectiveness, that stuff that has a 2+ probably degrades too as it takes damage and the game goes on... Because Purge helps there too. On the Lord, forget him, you don't need him now and you don't need to worry about keeping units within his 6" bubble either. This is big because now we can take other HQs that buff in other ways. Sure you won't get VOTLW but now you can take a Sorcerer with Death Hex, Warptime, Prescience, etc who also uses Smite to get a wound on a unit that you'll be shooting in the next phase (and re-rolling all hits). Also, as of now the Purge can be Slaanesh, so your Terminators or chaincannon Havocs can possibly shoot twice re-rolling all hits. Slaanesh Purge Terminators with a Terminator Sorcerer could be insanely brutal.
In melee re-roll all hits means you can fish for 5+/6+s to get extra attacks from DTTFE too if needs be.
Reroll to hit versus reroll to wound and which is more worthwhile comes down to which part of the shooting phase tends to result in more failed dice rolls.
If you start your shooting with X shots, without any sort of reroll to hit you will lose 1/3 of your shots to misses. With a reroll to hit you gain back 2/3 of that third... or in other words you lose 1/6 of you dice to misses and have 5/6*X to wound rolls.
In the case of having rerolls to wound you have 2/3*X to wound rolls.
Hh = 5/6*X
Hw = 2/3*X
Lets consider the to wound chart, where we have 5 conditions that dictate odds.
A. If 2T >= S then 1/6 of the successful hits cause wounds
B. If T>S<2T then 1/3 of the successful hits cause wounds
C. If T=S then 1/2 of the successful hits cause wounds
D. If S>T<2S then 2/3 of the successful hits cause wounds
E. If 2S>T then 5/6 of the successful hits cause wounds
Spoiler:
Without rerolls we'd generally have these numbers of successful wounds:
A. 1/6 (5/6*X) = 5/36X
B. 1/3 (5/6*X) = 10/36X
C. 1/2 (5/6*X) = 15/36X
D. 2/3 (5/6*X) = 20/36X
E. 5/6 (5/6*X) = 25/36X
Now with rerolls we'd generally have these numbers of successful wounds:
A. (2/3X)*((1/6)+((1/6)*(5/6))) = 2/3X*((6/36)+(5/36)) = 2/3X*(11/36) = 22/108*X
B. (2/3X)*((1/3)+((1/3)*(2/3))) = 2/3X*((12/36)+(8/36)) = 2/3X*(20/36) = 40/108*X
C. (2/3X)*((1/2)+((1/2)*(1/2))) = 2/3X*((18/36)+(9/36)) = 2/3X*(27/36) = 54/108*X
D. (2/3X)*((2/3)+((2/3)*(1/3))) = 2/3X*((24/36)+(8/36)) = 2/3X*(32/36) = 64/108*X
E. (2/3X)*((5/6)+((5/6)*(1/6))) = 2/3X*((30/36)+(5/36)) = 2/3X*(35/36) = 70/108*X
The resulting wounds when you have reroll to hits vs the resulting wounds from when you have reroll to wounds for an equal number of dice to roll to hit:
A. 15/108*X < 22/108*X
B. 30/108*X < 40/108*X
C. 45/108*X < 54/108*X
D. 60/108*X < 64/108*X
E. 75/108*X > 70/108*X
In this way we can see in all but the case where you're shooting with a high strength weapon against a low toughness target a reroll to wound has a bigger positive impact than a reroll to hit. Its simply because there is greater likelihood of losing dice from your starting number of dice when rolling to wound.
McGibs wrote: Slaughterers dont need much help from Lord Discordants, but the advance/charge strat helps a tonne for their auto 6" advance. Berserkers in a termite has been a staple of my lsits for a while, and it always performs awesomely. Just start it on the table, otherwise deepstriking+charging can leave them out of the fight for way too long.
I can back this. In my experience you get the most mileage with renegade aka red corsair for the advance and charge threat. With the 32mm base added to the 3" deployment + the 6+d6" move and then the 2d6" charge with a reroll from the icon you can stifle the entire middle of the table as your opponent will want nothing to do with getting hit by them You essentially create a ~27" threat radius from the termite.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xirax wrote: Have to say that a Red Corsairs 10man csm squad with 2x RCC, bolters and combi-bolter on champion with, MoS is a decent screen/shield drone removal unit with " there's more where they came from" and endless cacocphony strat. Yes it's 4cp total, but at T1 it has proven really valuable. Anyone else have any similar success?
lindsay40k wrote: Also please note the advance + charge thing is a Stratagem, not Relic. If you’re going to Boromir with a LD, give it the serpents
There's the Codex Khorne relic that lets you charge after advancing and gives rerolls to charge. The +2" trait can also be taken without making the Lord Discordant your Warlord. It does give him an awful lot of defense though.
Correct, I played a test game with my 3 LD. (I kitbashed 2 from demon engine parts) One had the talisman of burning blood, another had the +2" movement WLT and used the stratagem to advance and charge and the third one I warp times for double movement. All three made it in turn 1.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Has anyone actually used the Proteus Pattern FW guns on their Havocs yet as stand-in Reapers? I'm a pretty mediocre hobbyist but I worry about their compatibility. That said, Reapers are going for $12-15 a piece on Ebay which is just offensively stupid.
I used two Space Crusade assault cannons plus the old heavy bolter ammo belt. Nobody's complained so far. I stuck them in regular CSM squads.
p5freak wrote: I don't think you can give a relic from one codex to a unit from another codex.
To be more precise, you can only give relics from the codex chaos daemons to units with the daemon faction keyword. Check the codex chaos daemons FAQ.
Xirax wrote: Have to say that a Red Corsairs 10man csm squad with 2x RCC, bolters and combi-bolter on champion with, MoS is a decent screen/shield drone removal unit with " there's more where they came from" and endless cacocphony strat. Yes it's 4cp total, but at T1 it has proven really valuable. Anyone else have any similar success?
That actually eats up 5 CP.
Typo.. but even 5cp can be worth the 36 bolter shots and 32 heavy bolter shots. If you really want 1-2 screens or that Tau shield drones begone.. just something in your toolbox. You don't have to cacocphony if your target dies in the first volley anyhow.
Quick bit of help; can I take two heavy weapons in a squad of ten CSM? Or is it one heavy, one special like regular marines? My copy of the codex is in the room where my wife is sleeping, and I don’t want to wake her up over something this trivial. Trying to see if I can arm the squad I’m building now with two chain guns or if I’m stuck with only one.
timetowaste85 wrote: Quick bit of help; can I take two heavy weapons in a squad of ten CSM? Or is it one heavy, one special like regular marines? My copy of the codex is in the room where my wife is sleeping, and I don’t want to wake her up over something this trivial. Trying to see if I can arm the squad I’m building now with two chain guns or if I’m stuck with only one.
You can go with two chaincannons Both of the two Chaos Space Marines who get the option in a 10-man+ squad can choose either a special or a heavy weapon. Because Chaos is badass.
I’m going Flawless Host (Slaanesh). So Endless Cacophany on a squad with two chain cannons. It ties in with the 2k list I posted; that squad is relatively safe since Mortarion, Magnus, a Kytan and two Daemon Princes are in the face of the enemy right away. The ten man and two five man squads are there to snag objectives and EC any squad they need to. I thought about 4 squads of 5, but felt two 5s and a 10 would be more suitable for the purpose of EC. Unless I have the points to do 3 squads of 5 with no upgrades at all and a squad of 5 havocs (doubtful). If I can squeeze 5 havocs in at 120pts, then I’m golden. Actually, I’m not even sure I can do exactly what I have planned; I might need to drop one of the 5 man squads down to a smaller heavy/special weapon. I gotta consult the book later. I might be a couple points over currently.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay, so I updated my digital codex and I can’t find the renegade stuff at all; where is the Flawless Host info?
So boosting my Daemon Engines for my Iron Warriors. Have a Lord Discordant on the way, 1 maulerfiend and 1 venomcrawler. Thinking of adding 1 more engine to the mix to move up field with a greater possessed tagging along. I don't want another discordant (although I can certainly understand redundancy) so trying to decide between mauler and venom (or possibly defiler). I'm trying to figure out why the venom costs almost the same as a mauler which looks objectively better in every way. Yes, it doesn't have shooting, but if advancing, how good are those VC weapons anyway? Of course, I can grab a VC much cheaper than another mauler but that's not the only consideration.
Any reason why i should take another VC instead of a mauler?
bullyboy wrote: So boosting my Daemon Engines for my Iron Warriors. Have a Lord Discordant on the way, 1 maulerfiend and 1 venomcrawler. Thinking of adding 1 more engine to the mix to move up field with a greater possessed tagging along. I don't want another discordant (although I can certainly understand redundancy) so trying to decide between mauler and venom (or possibly defiler). I'm trying to figure out why the venom costs almost the same as a mauler which looks objectively better in every way. Yes, it doesn't have shooting, but if advancing, how good are those VC weapons anyway? Of course, I can grab a VC much cheaper than another mauler but that's not the only consideration.
Any reason why i should take another VC instead of a mauler?
I would say real world $$$ cost as you can pickup a VC for almost a third of a Mauler on eBay.
That said, dual VCs with a Mauler and lord discordant is flexible and can handle both CC and shooting. If you only take one VC you are so titled towards CC you might as well just run three maulers.
The excruciating cannons are basically 2d3 ranged shots to make up for the loss of 4 tendril attacks. So you get to shoot those the turn you spend moving up, unless you think you're getting a first turn charge (possible, to be sure, but hardly a guarantee). The downside is its main 4 attacks are strength 8 vs strength 14 and it has 2 fewer wounds.
I don't think there is a meaningful difference between the two. I think the defiler is the much harder one to figure out. I tend to think if you're going to try for first turn charges en mass, I like the mauler fiend better. If you're aiming to hit on second turn, I'm bigger on the defiler + venom crawler.
The excruciating cannons are basically 2d3 ranged shots to make up for the loss of 4 tendril attacks. So you get to shoot those the turn you spend moving up, unless you think you're getting a first turn charge (possible, to be sure, but hardly a guarantee). The downside is its main 4 attacks are strength 8 vs strength 14 and it has 2 fewer wounds.
I don't think there is a meaningful difference between the two. I think the defiler is the much harder one to figure out. I tend to think if you're going to try for first turn charges en mass, I like the mauler fiend better. If you're aiming to hit on second turn, I'm bigger on the defiler + venom crawler.
If the rule of 3 didn't exist, I'd take 6 over 3 and 3 maulers. Having all of that extra shooting is pretty huge with a herald nearby.
Venom crawlers are definatly different from maulerfiends. That being said there is something amazing about advancing a maulerfiend up next to a herald of slaanesh on steed and getting those t1 charges. Had a maulerfiend just destroy an enemy redemptor dreadnought t1, freaked my opponent out so his turn he spent everything firing at it and barely killed it.
If you want pure melee its mauler. If you want pure shooting its forge. And if you want a mix you have vemoms or defilers.
It's tougher, slower, better against vehicles because it hits harder and with higher strength. Without good guns it's pretty similar points. I actually think smoke launchers on the cheap version are actually a pretty legit boon.
You can also kit it out to be pretty decent at shooting. Even moving up if it's near a LD you can daemonforge one with double lascannons for some pretty legit anti-vehicle.
Yes it is, and its worth every point. Last time i was at a friendly local tournament i ran it 4 times. First 2 with the skull cannon, second 2 with the gattling. That gattling cannon was crazy good, killing anything i targeted. The skull cannon actually kinda sucked. So yeah its expensive but its worth it.
drakerocket wrote: It's tougher, slower, better against vehicles because it hits harder and with higher strength. Without good guns it's pretty similar points. I actually think smoke launchers on the cheap version are actually a pretty legit boon.
You can also kit it out to be pretty decent at shooting. Even moving up if it's near a LD you can daemonforge one with double lascannons for some pretty legit anti-vehicle.
Though now much better with lord discordants, defilers are... Odd. They arnt as fast as VCs or Maulers and don't shoot as well as forgefiends. They are kitted for both CC and shooting but essentially have to choose 1 at the sacrifice of the other. Perfect example being if you commit to CC and you advance then you can't shoot. If you commit to shooting, you are wasting great CC. You see the problem.
VCs get around this by having assault ranged weapons so can do both which is why I would take them over defilers for mixed roles. You won't auto-lose taking them of course but they exist in a strange space where there is a better generalist choice and better specialist choices.
drakerocket wrote: It's tougher, slower, better against vehicles because it hits harder and with higher strength. Without good guns it's pretty similar points. I actually think smoke launchers on the cheap version are actually a pretty legit boon.
You can also kit it out to be pretty decent at shooting. Even moving up if it's near a LD you can daemonforge one with double lascannons for some pretty legit anti-vehicle.
Though now much better with lord discordants, defilers are... Odd. They arnt as fast as VCs or Maulers and don't shoot as well as forgefiends. They are kitted for both CC and shooting but essentially have to choose 1 at the sacrifice of the other. Perfect example being if you commit to CC and you advance then you can't shoot. If you commit to shooting, you are wasting great CC. You see the problem.
VCs get around this by having assault ranged weapons so can do both when check is why I would take them over defilers for mixed roles.
If you’re taking Nurgle Defilers, and starting them near a Gnarlmaw, they can fire everything whilst Advancing. Sweet synergy with a LD and CD DP. Especially if you’re going Soulforged for the death robots all moving +2”.
drakerocket wrote: I suppose the fact that there is no clear winner among them might be something we call 'balance'....
IMO, the clear winner is blood slaughterers. Better WS, better movement, more attacks. Only downside is it must be <khorne> and is forgeworld, so some might balk at it.
Yeah, the gatling hades cannon is expensive, but always bring that over the skull cannon thingy. I think its needs some sort of reduction in points, a single weapon should never ever cost 184 points. But oh well, we have to live with it.
What about the FW variant, the Kytan? Is it cheaper because it just has the gatling cannon and the cc weapon? Anyone have the cost on it- are the other stats the same?
I think the Kytan including all gear (it doesnt have switch options) is just 410 points. So if points is an issue, Kytan is definately the cheaper choice. This is kinda why I hope chapter approved or the FAQ will lower the points of LOS. Compared to a Castellan as well as a Kytan, which has only 4 less hp than a LOS, the LOS is expensive (relatively).
Kytan has only 8 shots on its gun compared to the LOS's 12 shots, and doesn't have the stomach flamer cannon thingy. But it has a 2d6 advance. It doesn't get more attacks as it degrades like the LOS, but it has less wounds than the LOS 28W and also has a 5++. At top tier, its just as choppy as a LOS in close combat.
A castellan is far more shooty than either one. But not as good in close combat for sure. If you take a renegade Castellan, you don't get the house traits, strategems or IK relics, which are all key to what makes a Castellan so op. I would say for us chaos heretics, better to consider a renegade knight, double gun loadout. or a renegade gallant for choppy.
A renegade knight with double thermal cannons is a good platform for anti tank. Thats 2d6str 9 melta shots at range 36. Not counting carapace weapons. And we can raise ion shields for 1 cp to 4++.
Of course, another point to consider is that a Kytan or LOS is so much fluffier and has better synergy to a chaos army. Because both benefit from the demonforge strategem. And also, you can run a supreme command detachment for 3 HQ and a lord of war. So, you can actually have a supreme command detachment with 3 Lord Discordants and 1 Kytan Raveger / LOS. Its a very nasty daemon engine contingent that would give your opponent pause as it charges up the board. It can form a soul forged pack detachment too. So now one of these daemon engines can advance and charge. There are all sorts of relics that your Lord discordantts can take to buff themselves. Including mecha serpants, intoxicating elixir, etc. You can go black legion for the halve all wounds warlord trait, or Brazen beasts so that you get the burning daemonheart strategem. roll a dice, one unit 1 inch away from your daemon engine either takes 1d3 mortal wounds or 3 mortal woudns depending on the d6 roll.
I think it really all depends on the rest of your army that you are thinking about forming. If you just want a hard to kill anti tank platform, just go renegade knight with double thermal cannons. If you want daemon engine theme, then yeah, LOS or Kytan Ravager is a much better choice.
The Kytan is just flat out better once you factor in the cost. The LOS costs like 50% more points but doesn't offer 50% more. You can take nearly 2 more other daemon engines for the points difference. Having a super heavy on the field that can smash pretty much anything in 1 fight phase changes things a lot. Concentrating even more of your points into it isn't really efficient. And that 2d6 advance is great.
Kytan has 2D6 advance... and, if it’s taken as part of a Supreme Command Soulforged Pack, it can add +2 to that then pop a strat to charge after Advancing... okay, I’m sold
Also, Soulforged enables it to ignore its deteriorating profile. And whilst LOS’s 8A when near dead is fun, 4” move is a lot worse than 8”.
Both are pretty good candidates for Daemonic Strength, Kytan doesn’t necessarily need Warptime for early stomping.
lindsay40k wrote: Kytan has 2D6 advance... and, if it’s taken as part of a Supreme Command Soulforged Pack, it can add +2 to that then pop a strat to charge after Advancing... okay, I’m sold
Also, Soulforged enables it to ignore its deteriorating profile. And whilst LOS’s 8A when near dead is fun, 4” move is a lot worse than 8”.
Both are pretty good candidates for Daemonic Strength, Kytan doesn’t necessarily need Warptime for early stomping.
Ok so just looked up Kytan, and I think it was love at first sight.
I'd like to work this guy into a list with a venom, mauler, and LD. I'd previously drawn up a black legion list with them. The idea being to give black legion WL trait to LD and field commander to a warpsmith for the 2+ move.
My question is what detachment can I use to give them all soulforge?
Also I dont have much experience with khorne, I was planning on slanesh, so anything I can do to add survivability if I'm tied to Khorne keyword?
I'm thinking with the giant threat of the kytan, the ld will get less attention.
Erm, I am not sure if you can get the Kytan Ravager into a soulforged detachment which also has a venomcrawler and a maulerfiend.
Either you go with a batallion or spearhead. Then you can have LD, Venomcrawler, and mauler fiend in them as part of a soulforged pack detachment. But then your Kytan Ravager has to be in a seperate super heavy auxilliary detachment, and will not be part of that soul forged detachment.
Or, you have a supreme command detachment. And you put your LD and Kytan Ravager into that. And they can be in a soulforged detachment. But then, your maulerfiend and your venomcrawler will not be part of that detachment. Because a supreme command detachment cannot have heavy support.
You have to choose I am afraid. You can't have everything in the same detachment because the Kytan ravager is a superheavy while the venom crawler and the maulerfiend are heavy support choices. Actually, I would suggest putting the Kytan Ravager into a seperate superheavy Auxilliary detachment. Just cast warp time on him. That way, you won't waste his guns. Those 8 shots can do a lot of damage. They are str 8 and d2 each. If you use the soulforged pack strategem to make him advance 2d6 and charge, its great, but then you can't shoot your guns because they are heavy, they are not assault. Warptiming a Kytan ravager is probably going to achieve the same exact result (turn 1 charge) plus you still get to use your guns.
Your venomcrawler benefits alot more from the advance and charge strategem because its guns are assault. So, the venomcrawler can move advance, still shoot all its weapons, and then charge into combat. I think both Kytan Ravager and Lord of Skulls have to be Khorne. They are Khorne Daemon Engines, if I am not wrong. In any case, its not like you can use cacophony on them just because they are slanaash. Cacophony strategem can only be used on infantry units.
Honestly, if you want to further buff them, its with stuff like auras, psychic. The key strategem that works on them (regardless of mark) is daemonforge strategem, and that's probably all you will ever need. The only protective strategem I know of is the iron within iron without strategem that the iron warriors legion has. It gives your Kytan ravager or LOS a 6+ FNP when you activate it. Believe me, on a titanic engine that has over 20 wounds, a 6+ FNP can end up saving quite a few wounds if your opponent focus fire on it. It does require you to go Iron warriors though for at least your Kytan Ravager.
Black Legion Spearhead (Soulforged Pack -1CP):
Lord Discordant (Warlord, Mechaserpents)
Maulerfiend
Defiler
Venomcrawler
All of these units benefit from the Warpsmith’s +2M aura, whatever the Legion. The Kytan can pop IW strat for 6+++.
You could even go HERETIC ASTARTES soup. Throw in a World Eater for 4+ defence against Magnus Smiting on a 14. Or make the Warpsmith Alpha Legion to mitigate snipers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: do NOT throw a bucket of money at this build until we see where Chaos soup stands after the next FAQ.
So I was planning on doing this- Lindsay there shouldnt be anything to FAQ correct?
Supreme Command (this will be the Soulforged Pack)
Kytan
Daemon Prince
Lord Discordant
Lord Discordant
Red Corsairs or Flawless Host?
Huron
Master of Possession
2x5 csm with autocannon
10 csm with 2 rotorcannons
1 unit of havocs, 4 lascannons
2 oblits
2 venomcrawlers
sturguard wrote: So I was planning on doing this- Lindsay there shouldnt be anything to FAQ correct?
Supreme Command (this will be the Soulforged Pack)
Kytan
Daemon Prince
Lord Discordant
Lord Discordant
Red Corsairs or Flawless Host?
Huron
Master of Possession
2x5 csm with autocannon
10 csm with 2 rotorcannons
1 unit of havocs, 4 lascannons
2 oblits
2 venomcrawlers
Look good?
There's not any point in having the second detachment be Flawless Host. None of those units benefit from it's trait or strat.
10 CSM isn't a great idea due to morale. Might be better to do 3 units of 5 with chain cannons.
Ah you are right, I thought flawless Host would affect the CSM, Havoc's etc. The daemon prince should be in there for sure. Now I am looking at some helbrutes instead.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok so it would look more like this.
Supreme Command, Soul Forged
Kytan
LD LD
Then a brigade, need to figure out which works the best.
So I'm taking the plunge back into Chaos Marines, starting with a Shadowspear box (ordered for stuff I need for my Black Templars (Suppressors namely)) because the models are starting to finally show the same level of detail I like on the Raptors.
So I'm loving the new stuff, and the detachments look great only I'm the kind of idiot who likes the Word Bearer models. And the kind of idiot who likes matching my paint scheme and rules up. So I won't be using the new Black Legion stuff or straying into mechanically better rules. So, excluding switching the Legion Rules is a good way to take the army from the Shadowspear box?
If it helps, I'm already looking at adding a Lord Discodant because the model is cool and putting daemons in things seems ver Word Bearers to me, but I don't really have a lot of other ideas since Possessed are pants.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Erm, I am not sure if you can get the Kytan Ravager into a soulforged detachment which also has a venomcrawler and a maulerfiend.
Either you go with a batallion or spearhead. Then you can have LD, Venomcrawler, and mauler fiend in them as part of a soulforged pack detachment. But then your Kytan Ravager has to be in a seperate super heavy auxilliary detachment, and will not be part of that soul forged detachment.
Or, you have a supreme command detachment. And you put your LD and Kytan Ravager into that. And they can be in a soulforged detachment. But then, your maulerfiend and your venomcrawler will not be part of that detachment. Because a supreme command detachment cannot have heavy support.
You have to choose I am afraid. You can't have everything in the same detachment because the Kytan ravager is a superheavy while the venom crawler and the maulerfiend are heavy support choices. Actually, I would suggest putting the Kytan Ravager into a seperate superheavy Auxilliary detachment. Just cast warp time on him. That way, you won't waste his guns. Those 8 shots can do a lot of damage. They are str 8 and d2 each. If you use the soulforged pack strategem to make him advance 2d6 and charge, its great, but then you can't shoot your guns because they are heavy, they are not assault. Warptiming a Kytan ravager is probably going to achieve the same exact result (turn 1 charge) plus you still get to use your guns.
Your venomcrawler benefits alot more from the advance and charge strategem because its guns are assault. So, the venomcrawler can move advance, still shoot all its weapons, and then charge into combat. I think both Kytan Ravager and Lord of Skulls have to be Khorne. They are Khorne Daemon Engines, if I am not wrong. In any case, its not like you can use cacophony on them just because they are slanaash. Cacophony strategem can only be used on infantry units.
Honestly, if you want to further buff them, its with stuff like auras, psychic. The key strategem that works on them (regardless of mark) is daemonforge strategem, and that's probably all you will ever need. The only protective strategem I know of is the iron within iron without strategem that the iron warriors legion has. It gives your Kytan ravager or LOS a 6+ FNP when you activate it. Believe me, on a titanic engine that has over 20 wounds, a 6+ FNP can end up saving quite a few wounds if your opponent focus fire on it. It does require you to go Iron warriors though for at least your Kytan Ravager.
It's an extra CP, but run two Detachments as specialist.
How does the takes half damage rule actually work in detail?
Do you work out the damage a unit has inflicted and then halve it or do you halve the damage each failed save lets through?
Really, what I want to know is does the rule have no effect whatsoever on weapons that only cause 1 damage?
Been running 3x quad heavy bolter rapier battery the last few months with great success, battlescribe has it range 36" but the forgeworld index is 48", did I miss an faq change to this maybe in the loyalist version of the weapon? 36" would be more in line with traditional heavy bolters so it might just be battlescribe assuming
Snugiraffe wrote: How does the takes half damage rule actually work in detail?
Do you work out the damage a unit has inflicted and then halve it or do you halve the damage each failed save lets through?
Really, what I want to know is does the rule have no effect whatsoever on weapons that only cause 1 damage?
It halves damage rounding up, so 0.5 becomes 1 dmg So a thunder hammer hit will be 2 dmg (1.5 rounding up).
Unless someone tells me I'm wrong I'd half each attack, so if you got hit by 2 Las cannon hits I'd half each of the damage rolls separately. Which unfortunately is worse than totally the damage and then halving.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I'm thinking about the master of possession as a support for a deamon engine heavy list, he can use sacrifice to heal de wounds at 18 inch range, which would be in addition to regeneration and any heals I can get off from a warpsmith.
In addition to that he can either have the rerolls aura or the + save aura, I'd really like the save aura except once again I'm not sure how he can keep up with my guys running up the board. Thoughts?
If he's just being used for his psychic powers you can advanve him and still cast your power, just move him first so you can plan the rest of your movement around him.
Alternatively, use him to support some ranged Daemon engines instead.
Snugiraffe wrote: How does the takes half damage rule actually work in detail?
Do you work out the damage a unit has inflicted and then halve it or do you halve the damage each failed save lets through?
Really, what I want to know is does the rule have no effect whatsoever on weapons that only cause 1 damage?
It halves damage rounding up, so 0.5 becomes 1 dmg So a thunder hammer hit will be 2 dmg (1.5 rounding up).
Unless someone tells me I'm wrong I'd half each attack, so if you got hit by 2 Las cannon hits I'd half each of the damage rolls separately. Which unfortunately is worse than totally the damage and then halving.
That's accurate.
1 damage does 1 wound.
2 damage does 1 wound.
3 damage does 2 wounds.
Make him mark of nurgle for further fun. Miasma + dark apostle for -2 to hit, grandfathers blessing for d3 wounds healed, you can make the guy an unstoppable force to be reconed with if kitted out properly. Add a few other big toys near him and leave your opponent with no good options to kill
I am really starting to come around to 10 man CSM with two Chain guns and a Storm bolter. Three of these as troops as very strong. 8 wounds before you lose the chainguns. Put them on objectives in cover and let them spray anything that gets within 24. it is still 16 shots plus 18 bolter shots at 24 inches. And can still EC them and it would still be worth it. in a Red Corsairs list for Extra CP. And you can still field Havocs as well. This is a great support list for most armies.
I was also thinking A LD with Indomitable WL Trait and Mecha Tendrils in a soulforged pack mark of Nurgle is very decent, Next to a Second LD field commander with the soulforged WL trait makes them very nasty and really makes target priority difficult if backed up bt more Daemon engines.
Tried out my double lord discordent and triple blood slaughterers list today and suffice to say it wrecks face very easily, damn nasty part of the list.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Erm, I am not sure if you can get the Kytan Ravager into a soulforged detachment which also has a venomcrawler and a maulerfiend.
Either you go with a batallion or spearhead. Then you can have LD, Venomcrawler, and mauler fiend in them as part of a soulforged pack detachment. But then your Kytan Ravager has to be in a seperate super heavy auxilliary detachment, and will not be part of that soul forged detachment.
Or, you have a supreme command detachment. And you put your LD and Kytan Ravager into that. And they can be in a soulforged detachment. But then, your maulerfiend and your venomcrawler will not be part of that detachment. Because a supreme command detachment cannot have heavy support.
You have to choose I am afraid. You can't have everything in the same detachment because the Kytan ravager is a superheavy while the venom crawler and the maulerfiend are heavy support choices. Actually, I would suggest putting the Kytan Ravager into a seperate superheavy Auxilliary detachment. Just cast warp time on him. That way, you won't waste his guns. Those 8 shots can do a lot of damage. They are str 8 and d2 each. If you use the soulforged pack strategem to make him advance 2d6 and charge, its great, but then you can't shoot your guns because they are heavy, they are not assault. Warptiming a Kytan ravager is probably going to achieve the same exact result (turn 1 charge) plus you still get to use your guns.
Your venomcrawler benefits alot more from the advance and charge strategem because its guns are assault. So, the venomcrawler can move advance, still shoot all its weapons, and then charge into combat. I think both Kytan Ravager and Lord of Skulls have to be Khorne. They are Khorne Daemon Engines, if I am not wrong. In any case, its not like you can use cacophony on them just because they are slanaash. Cacophony strategem can only be used on infantry units.
Honestly, if you want to further buff them, its with stuff like auras, psychic. The key strategem that works on them (regardless of mark) is daemonforge strategem, and that's probably all you will ever need. The only protective strategem I know of is the iron within iron without strategem that the iron warriors legion has. It gives your Kytan ravager or LOS a 6+ FNP when you activate it. Believe me, on a titanic engine that has over 20 wounds, a 6+ FNP can end up saving quite a few wounds if your opponent focus fire on it. It does require you to go Iron warriors though for at least your Kytan Ravager.
It's an extra CP, but run two Detachments as specialist.
Unfortunately, you can't run the same specialist detatchment twice. Pg 160 of Vigilus "Each Specialist Detatchment Strategum can only be used once per battle".
Hmm, I am liking the fact that LD has a autocannon with 48 inch range and venom crawler's shooting is not bad too. The defiler battle cannon has a range of 72 inches! And LD improves all the daemon engine's shooting to BS 3+ if they stand still.
Don't get me wrong, it won't be the shootiest army for sure. But its actually a very flexible army. If you run into a melee type army with very little guns, or with short range guns. You have the option to stand back, stand still and rain down fire on the on charging enemy. Then when they are close enough, your daemon engines can launch a charge straight down their throats.
On the other hand, if you face a shootier army. Then by all means, run up the daemon engines, while still firing, but with less accuracy. But now you are in opponent's face as soon as turn 1 to 2.
Its the tactical flexibility that's kinda appealing right now to me. And add one MOP into the mix, and the multiplier effect will be huge because now the MOP's spells will be buffing multiple daemon engines.
The idea of Defilers, Venomcrawlers, LDs all with a 4++ save from cursed earth, and shooting at at least BS 3+ with a reroll of 1 to hit and wound from infernal power is very tasty.
And a defiler with battle cannon, havoc launcher and twin lascannon is actually a pretty shooty platform. And a venomcrawler has 2d3 str 8 shots too. They are actually not bad at shooting really, especially if they are buffed by LD and MOP nearby.
So here is a question. Does the lord discordant buff himself for the +1 to hit? I am pretty sure he does so if you give him the -1 to bs / +1 to ap relic his autocannon still hits on 2's but is 2 shots at str 7 ap-2 2dmg, thats pretty nice.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmm, I am liking the fact that LD has a autocannon with 48 inch range and venom crawler's shooting is not bad too. The defiler battle cannon has a range of 72 inches! And LD improves all the daemon engine's shooting to BS 3+ if they stand still.
Don't get me wrong, it won't be the shootiest army for sure. But its actually a very flexible army. If you run into a melee type army with very little guns, or with short range guns. You have the option to stand back, stand still and rain down fire on the on charging enemy. Then when they are close enough, your daemon engines can launch a charge straight down their throats.
On the other hand, if you face a shootier army. Then by all means, run up the daemon engines, while still firing, but with less accuracy. But now you are in opponent's face as soon as turn 1 to 2.
Its the tactical flexibility that's kinda appealing right now to me. And add one MOP into the mix, and the multiplier effect will be huge because now the MOP's spells will be buffing multiple daemon engines.
The idea of Defilers, Venomcrawlers, LDs all with a 4++ save from cursed earth, and shooting at at least BS 3+ with a reroll of 1 to hit and wound from infernal power is very tasty.
And a defiler with battle cannon, havoc launcher and twin lascannon is actually a pretty shooty platform. And a venomcrawler has 2d3 str 8 shots too. They are actually not bad at shooting really, especially if they are buffed by LD and MOP nearby.
Venomcrawler only has D3 shoots bit still. A Herald or greater possesed and we will wound a Knight on 3+.
Heralds give deamons of the same mark as them +1 str while within 6". If the deamon herald is in a detachment that is mono god then they also produce a loci ability to give to deamons within 6".
Khorne is reroll failed charges
Slaanesh is advance and charge
Nurgle is... something? I dont play nurgle deamons so I don't remember.
Tzeentch is supposed to make them harder to hit in cc, but it does it in such a poor way its useless.
Oh. I see my miss there. Didn’t see they had 2 cannons each.
Nurgle loci is 6” as the other and on a wound roll of 6+ you do 1 additional wound.
Tzeentch is stupid. Roll 2D6, discard the highest and any roll before modifiers is the same it’s a miss. Also only in the fight phase.
When I get my 2 LD and another maulerfiend I will try out a list with slaanesh daemons and some engines for that sweet T1 charges. Also trying too fit in purge legion havocs so I can shoot into a fight.
Tazberry wrote: Oh. I see my miss there. Didn’t see they had 2 cannons each.
Nurgle loci is 6” as the other and on a wound roll of 6+ you do 1 additional wound.
Tzeentch is stupid. Roll 2D6, discard the highest and any roll before modifiers is the same it’s a miss. Also only in the fight phase.
When I get my 2 LD and another maulerfiend I will try out a list with slaanesh daemons and some engines for that sweet T1 charges. Also trying too fit in purge legion havocs so I can shoot into a fight.
1 extra DAMAGE, not additional wound.
So if your Lord DIscordant is by a Poxbringer (the Nurgle Herald) and scores a 6 to-wound with his Autocannon, it's damage 3 for that one shot.
Tazberry wrote: Oh. I see my miss there. Didn’t see they had 2 cannons each.
Nurgle loci is 6” as the other and on a wound roll of 6+ you do 1 additional wound.
Tzeentch is stupid. Roll 2D6, discard the highest and any roll before modifiers is the same it’s a miss. Also only in the fight phase.
When I get my 2 LD and another maulerfiend I will try out a list with slaanesh daemons and some engines for that sweet T1 charges. Also trying too fit in purge legion havocs so I can shoot into a fight.
1 extra DAMAGE, not additional wound.
So if your Lord DIscordant is by a Poxbringer (the Nurgle Herald) and scores a 6 to-wound with his Autocannon, it's damage 3 for that one shot.
True, though a Daemon Prince with wings will do that and be able to keep up with a death robot jamboree. Rerolls are nice, as well - only one of them can Daemon Forge, after all
I only played a single game with 3 lord discordants and two maulers and two venom crawlers. The three LD had 2 in the soulforged pack and one in a battalion with huron with warp time. So I took the talisman of BBlood on one and used the strat to advance and charge on the second while I warp timed the third. All three easily made turn on charges.
I also took baleflamers. If your advancing and charging the auto canon is cheaper but it is also dead points spent. What you learn quickly is these guys are fast, but they still get boned by terrain pretty badly, especially when your running a train of demon engines. I think the baleflamer is too valuable in that it gives them a threat to things in upper levels and ruins. The baleflamer is nasty verse anything with two wounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll add that I think ideally you only want two of these guys, and you want ta pair pf princes rolling in with them. Although they hit on 2's it sucks rolling those 1's and the princes can hide behind them and hit targets in ruins and upper floors. It also opens up critical powers which you cna easily keep up in range with.
Red Corsair wrote: I only played a single game with 3 lord discordants and two maulers and two venom crawlers. The three LD had 2 in the soulforged pack and one in a battalion with huron with warp time. So I took the talisman of BBlood on one and used the strat to advance and charge on the second while I warp timed the third. All three easily made turn on charges.
I also took baleflamers. If your advancing and charging the auto canon is cheaper but it is also dead points spent. What you learn quickly is these guys are fast, but they still get boned by terrain pretty badly, especially when your running a train of demon engines. I think the baleflamer is too valuable in that it gives them a threat to things in upper levels and ruins. The baleflamer is nasty verse anything with two wounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll add that I think ideally you only want two of these guys, and you want ta pair pf princes rolling in with them. Although they hit on 2's it sucks rolling those 1's and the princes can hide behind them and hit targets in ruins and upper floors. It also opens up critical powers which you cna easily keep up in range with.
Thanks for the feedback! This was why I was always kinda iffy about mass daemon engines for the T1 charge. I always felt that terrain would cause lots of bottlenecks everywhere. And its made worse because you keep on wanting to place daemon engines within 6 inches of the LD to get his aura. Opponent just needs to place two throw away units at key bottle necks and you are held up for one turn. He keeps on doing that and until he runs out of throw away units, you will never get past the bottleneck. And all the while the rest of his army is shooting you.
There's two ways I use the AL strat: 1) to get a CSM unit in position early, either to get to an objective turn 1, or to set up their heavy weapon, and 2) to get berserkers as close as possible to face-smash. It's of very little use unless you're playing ITC I think - ground floor LoS means that 9" can do an awful lot.
Red Corsair wrote: I only played a single game with 3 lord discordants and two maulers and two venom crawlers. The three LD had 2 in the soulforged pack and one in a battalion with huron with warp time. So I took the talisman of BBlood on one and used the strat to advance and charge on the second while I warp timed the third. All three easily made turn on charges.
I also took baleflamers. If your advancing and charging the auto canon is cheaper but it is also dead points spent. What you learn quickly is these guys are fast, but they still get boned by terrain pretty badly, especially when your running a train of demon engines. I think the baleflamer is too valuable in that it gives them a threat to things in upper levels and ruins. The baleflamer is nasty verse anything with two wounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll add that I think ideally you only want two of these guys, and you want ta pair pf princes rolling in with them. Although they hit on 2's it sucks rolling those 1's and the princes can hide behind them and hit targets in ruins and upper floors. It also opens up critical powers which you cna easily keep up in range with.
Thanks for the feedback! This was why I was always kinda iffy about mass daemon engines for the T1 charge. I always felt that terrain would cause lots of bottlenecks everywhere. And its made worse because you keep on wanting to place daemon engines within 6 inches of the LD to get his aura. Opponent just needs to place two throw away units at key bottle necks and you are held up for one turn. He keeps on doing that and until he runs out of throw away units, you will never get past the bottleneck. And all the while the rest of his army is shooting you.
I'll also add, you need to be careful with the +2" movement WLT, if you get to hung up on trying to get a lot of engines in range you end up worse off lol. I mean they are all on massive bases so you create this double layered blob in your deployment and then your LD warlord has to move last or he moves out of range of them lol. BTW these guys are blenders but as I said in my last post, bad rolls happen, so when you whiff it sucks a bit. They also kind of suck at hitting vehicles if they don't charge which is funny and unexpected. He is only S6 and the engines limbs s7 so again you can struggle to drop enemy walkers. In my test game my bro took a mess of dark angel dreads to see how hard these things were. I actually lost all 3 by turn 2 because I charged turn 1 and over killed one dread and after an interrupt and poor rolling after degrading failed to kill a second and on his turn he wheeled in with a few more after shooting and he really hammered them lol. I did make mistakes however, I remembered his guys were -1 (didn't effect his crazy rolling) but forgot I explode on 5's. I also should have used demon forge but I didn't think I would need it on one of them. You in fact do lol.
BTW on the subject of venom crawler or mauler. Maulers last longer outside combat and can hit a bit harder, but the venom crawler is overall better because as I said before, ruins and levels make maulers sad all game, but the venom crawler is always a threat. He also heals up to 3 wounds a turn while the mauler is only 1 after you get into assault.
Personally, I’m of the opinion that the best way to run a daemon engines list is just to use 3 LD or 3 LD with defilers. The reasons for this is less deamon engines take up less room, and the only one Deamon engine can be effected by deamon forge per assault phase. Honestly that’s all you need for the LD, as anything I did that on my LD they killed/neutered whatever they came into contact. This is even more true after I applied buffs like virulent touch and/or dibaloc strength.While I was hoping the LD would buff deamon engines to be competitively viable, in reality he simply replaced them.
I’d also a single forge fiend as well, since a deamon forge forgefiend dishes out a fair amount of hurt for its price
grouchoben wrote: "While I was hoping the LD would buff deamon engines to be competitively viable, in reality he simply replaced them." QFT.
It is sad really.
However atleast we get now a close to decent defiler, which is an improvement, considering how good the defiler since it's inception was....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ClockworkZion wrote: My mistake on the Oblit weapons. I huess I'm just showing off my knowledge of outdated rules again.
Back to reading the codex for me then.
Ever since Oblits lost their multiple weapons, they got an assult profile, probably because the writers were to lazy at the time to write an ignore penalty rule..
So, if - and it's a big 'if' - oblits remain 65pts after the FAQ, how worthwhile is dropping them in with a gnarlmaw? The gnarlmaw taking a detachment is my main concern, but I'm considering proxying the tree for a trial game and planting them T2. Alpha legion, maybe DA &Miasma. They'll be hard to hit and hop out of combat with anything that gets close, but is that worth a detachment?
ClockworkZion wrote: My mistake on the Oblit weapons. I huess I'm just showing off my knowledge of outdated rules again.
Back to reading the codex for me then.
Ever since Oblits lost their multiple weapons, they got an assult profile, probably because the writers were to lazy at the time to write an ignore penalty rule..
Yeah, I'm an idiot who forgot the rules from 6th and 7th.
TankCmdr wrote: So, if - and it's a big 'if' - oblits remain 65pts after the FAQ, how worthwhile is dropping them in with a gnarlmaw? The gnarlmaw taking a detachment is my main concern, but I'm considering proxying the tree for a trial game and planting them T2. Alpha legion, maybe DA &Miasma. They'll be hard to hit and hop out of combat with anything that gets close, but is that worth a detachment?
Surely they can't stay 65 points, at that price they're a no brainer. Re Oblits and the Gnarmawl, it's an insanely powerful combo. I did this with 3 Oblits in a smaller 1250pt game, took a Daemons battalion detachment to give synnergy and CPs then used deep strike on it for 1CP and cast Miasma on the Nurgle Oblits, not a single one lost a wound all game. With a 2+ (read 0+ but 1s always fail) against pretty much everything outside of plasma and lascannons and a -1 to hit from Alpha Legion and -1 from Miasma they were untouchable. I screened them with Nurglings who are great at staking the middle of the table you want your Oblits to be in and great at keeping DS at arms length too. It was so good I promised my friend I wouldn't run it again. He was IG with plasma Russes using Relic of Cadia and quit turn 3 fwiw when the Oblits deleted Pask. Ideally you'll want 2 trees, one starting on the board in your deployment to protect you from turn 1 and one to drop in mid table turn 2.
Kuklops wrote: Surely they can't stay 65 points, at that price they're a no brainer. Re Oblits and the Gnarmawl, it's an insanely powerful combo. I did this with 3 Oblits in a smaller 1250pt game, took a Daemons battalion detachment to give synnergy and CPs then used deep strike on it for 1CP and cast Miasma on the Nurgle Oblits, not a single one lost a wound all game. With a 2+ (read 0+ but 1s always fail) against pretty much everything outside of plasma and lascannons and a -1 to hit from Alpha Legion and -1 from Miasma they were untouchable. I screened them with Nurglings who are great at staking the middle of the table you want your Oblits to be in and great at keeping DS at arms length too. It was so good I promised my friend I wouldn't run it again. He was IG with plasma Russes using Relic of Cadia and quit turn 3 fwiw when the Oblits deleted Pask. Ideally you'll want 2 trees, one starting on the board in your deployment to protect you from turn 1 and one to drop in mid table turn 2.
Excellent, thanks for the feedback! Yeah, I'm confident they'll get a price hike, but for now at least I'll give it a try. And if they only get bumped to 80-90pts a pop, I'll probably make room for them anyways
It’s remarkable how the Gnarlmaw’s buffs are so mediocre for pretty much anything they apply to other than Heretic Astartes. Oh, yay, my Plaguebearers have a cover save equal to their invulnerable save, whoopee. My Nurglings can fall back and charge as long as they start their turn within a certain area, meh. My Oblits have a 0+ save and better discipline than Ultramarines, whaaaat
lindsay40k wrote: It’s remarkable how the Gnarlmaw’s buffs are so mediocre for pretty much anything they apply to other than Heretic Astartes. Oh, yay, my Plaguebearers have a cover save equal to their invulnerable save, whoopee. My Nurglings can fall back and charge as long as they start their turn within a certain area, meh. My Oblits have a 0+ save and better discipline than Ultramarines, whaaaat
Actually, they have a base 6+ armor, so they get a 4+ save with the Gnarlmaw. It's not much, and any AP drops them right back to the invuln, but hey.
I know it's not a cheap option, but the Dark Apostle (with Disciples for that 2+ prayer) being able to give out an Invul save might be a decent alternative to the Gnarlmaw (especially if you're also escorting a unit of Cultists to go camp on the mid-board at the same time). Alternatively, giving the Oblits the -1 to be hit by shooting prayer could be good since they're likely to have plasma aimed at them (and it's -2 if they're Alpha Legion being shot outside of 12"). Pair the -1 (or -2) with the Gnarlmaw's protection and you could have a decent camping unit.
It's not perfect, but I feel like it at least does something to try and offer some mobility.
The Lord Discordant I feel is best taken as a Field Commander since he's a big target that says "insert bullets here", but still wants the bonuses that come from having a Warlord trait. That said, I'm not sure if a Supreme Command detachment of three is the best use of our FOC options, unless you are also spamming him for CP as well. Though with the Supreme Command detachment you could also do something silly like take a Lord of Skulls and use the detachment to buff it as well.
I have to say that my personal MVP out all of the new stuff has to be the Master of Possessions. They bring good powers and support to the army, even if you don't plan on tapping into their summoning potential.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I've been mucking around seeing if I could come up with something that's fun and possibly fluffy with the new rules and detachments (since I feel like three of the new detachments fit the Word Bearers almost perfectly):
++Battalion++
++Cult of the Damned: Dark Apostles, Dark Disciples, Chaos Cultists++ -1CP
HQ Dark Apostle 100
+Inferno Tome
Chaos Space Marines (x10)
+Autocannon (x2)
+Icon of Vengence
+Champion: Chainsword
+Champion: Combi-bolter
Chaos Space Marines (x10)
+Autocannon (x2)
+Icon of Vengence
+Champion: Chainsword
+Champion: Combi-bolter
Elites
Dark Disciples (2)
++Vanguard++
++Daemonkin Ritualists: Dark Apostles, Dark Disciples, Masters of Possession, Possesed, and Greater Possesed++ -1CP
HQ Master of Possession
+The Burning Rod (-1CP for extra Artefact)
++Spearhead++
++Soulforged Pack: Warpsmith and Daemon Engine++ -1CP
Lord Discordant on Helstalker
+Baleflamer
+Techno-virus Injector
Heavy Support
Venomcrawler 130
Venomcrawler 130
Obliterators (2) 230
Total: 1998
CP: 10-4= 6CP
Dark Apostle and Master of Possessions deploys with the Obliterators and uses the Cultists as a screen while they move to take the midboard. The Chaos Space Marines cap objectives and act as long range support for the Possessed who move in a wing with the other Master of Possessions and Greater Possessed. Lastly the Lord Discordant acts as a Distraction Carnifex with the two Venomcrawlers as the three of them can get in the opponent's face quickly, aren't too plussed about being shot at for Overwatch and do some damage while taking pressure off the rest of the army.
Power and Prayers are the only things I'm still mulling over at this time to be honest.
Hello, I want to run a sole red-corstairs army led by Huron Blackheart. What units would be best to run to take advantage of the advance and charge trait??
I know I need to take at least 3 units of chaos space marines to get the extra command points but what else should I take??
froper98 wrote: Hello, I want to run a sole red-corstairs army led by Huron Blackheart. What units would be best to run to take advantage of the advance and charge trait??
I know I need to take at least 3 units of chaos space marines to get the extra command points but what else should I take??
I would say the following, in order of goodness:
1) Daemon Princes: These are absolutely the best CC units we have, and Red Corsairs make them even better. I dare say they have the best DPs the CSM codex can field. The only issue is that you have to be careful not to over-extend them, and get them shot. Charge them only after other things have successfully charged to get the most out of the character rule.
2) Helbrutes: A Helbrutes with either double fists or a fist and a scourge are cheap and killy in CC. Red Corsairs help them mitigate their issue of getting shot off the board before they get into CC, but if you take 3 you have a good chance of getting some in, and it's only just over 300 points!
3) Berzerkers: Our best power-armoured CC unit, and great if they can get into combat. Again, Red Corsairs mitigate their chance of getting shot off the board, but M6, foot slogging power armour is a fragile thing, even with advance and charge.
4) Possessed: People are now all brainstorming about Possessed, but I have yet to be convinced. They're not terrible at all any more, but I see the units above as just better. They're in slight competition with Berzerkers, as they're harder to kill, but do significantly less damage.
Besides them the units that 'want' to get into CC are things like chainsword CSM and Chosen, but they're just not up to the task. And Mutilators, but they're a joke of a unit.
And then there are good CC units like Lord Discordants, Maulerfiends, and Defilers, but none of them benefit from the Red Corsair trait. However, certain stratagems, relics, and psychic powers can help them keep up by giving them advance and charge. But there's no harm in having a second wave of CC units slightly behind the first. And given all of these are big hitters, it may be the best way to run them, allowing the first wave to clear out the chaff.
froper98 wrote: Hello, I want to run a sole red-corstairs army led by Huron Blackheart. What units would be best to run to take advantage of the advance and charge trait??
I know I need to take at least 3 units of chaos space marines to get the extra command points but what else should I take??
Surprisingly a big blob of marines, due to the red Corsairs stratagem.
I'd still go with guns though.
Bikes aren't half bad, hellbrutes as above, warptalons and or raptors due to DS + advance + charge nearly always gets you in melee.
Because I need to take 3 chaos space marine squads to get the bonuses, would it be better to go 5 man min squads or 10 man squads and place them in rhinos.
Because I need to take 3 chaos space marine squads to get the bonuses, would it be better to go 5 man min squads or 10 man squads and place them in rhinos.
Two five man squads to grab objectives, one squad as big as you can to really leverage more where they came from
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ClockworkZion wrote:So I've been mucking around seeing if I could come up with something that's fun and possibly fluffy with the new rules and detachments (since I feel like three of the new detachments fit the Word Bearers almost perfectly):
Spoiler:
++Battalion++
++Cult of the Damned: Dark Apostles, Dark Disciples, Chaos Cultists++ -1CP
HQ Dark Apostle 100
+Inferno Tome
Chaos Space Marines (x10)
+Autocannon (x2)
+Icon of Vengence
+Champion: Chainsword
+Champion: Combi-bolter
Chaos Space Marines (x10)
+Autocannon (x2)
+Icon of Vengence
+Champion: Chainsword
+Champion: Combi-bolter
Elites
Dark Disciples (2)
++Vanguard++
++Daemonkin Ritualists: Dark Apostles, Dark Disciples, Masters of Possession, Possesed, and Greater Possesed++ -1CP
HQ Master of Possession
+The Burning Rod (-1CP for extra Artefact)
++Spearhead++
++Soulforged Pack: Warpsmith and Daemon Engine++ -1CP
Lord Discordant on Helstalker
+Baleflamer
+Techno-virus Injector
Heavy Support
Venomcrawler 130
Venomcrawler 130
Obliterators (2) 230
Total: 1998
CP: 10-4= 6CP
Dark Apostle and Master of Possessions deploys with the Obliterators and uses the Cultists as a screen while they move to take the midboard. The Chaos Space Marines cap objectives and act as long range support for the Possessed who move in a wing with the other Master of Possessions and Greater Possessed. Lastly the Lord Discordant acts as a Distraction Carnifex with the two Venomcrawlers as the three of them can get in the opponent's face quickly, aren't too plussed about being shot at for Overwatch and do some damage while taking pressure off the rest of the army.
Power and Prayers are the only things I'm still mulling over at this time to be honest.
Not Online!!! wrote:Cut the marines in half, cut the flamers on the cultists or replace them with the stubber.
Second @Not Online!!!, also if the Possessed are going upfield together consider merging them into one big horde and splitting the GrPo into two units and perhaps use the savings from fewer CSMs to buy a Sorcerer so you have access to Warptime, Prescience, Death Hex and a deity endurance spell
I’m not convinced about the Burning Rod, the bearer has M6 WS3+ A3 and can neither fly nor advance & charge. If I were dropping a MoP out of a dreadclaw or carrying in a Rhino, maybe, but on a footslogger who’ll get two hits it feels like a weak scarecrow.
Ah okay. Can a helbrute take two power scourges as it looks like it can, buti am worried I might be misinterpreting the rules. it has been 3 editions since I played 40k.
So, in my meta, we tend to see a LOT of IG, a fair bit of Custodes, and quite a few Knight lists. Went to the FLGS this Saturday and saw them with layers of Guardsmen backed up by Basiliks/Wyverns and Shield Captains. The other common theme was a Castellan backed up by layers of guard and the same tanks...
In short, do any of the new things we have help crack these waves of cheap dudes? I know the chaincannon is good, but we'll at most get a turn of shooting before a unit is pulled off the table. I'm not super sold on the LD getting more than one round of combat since most of these Imperium lists will just walk away and shoot them off the table after a charge.
If they soup like that feel free to do the same. Arhiman on disk with a well placed death hex can cause a knigjt to cry to oblits.
Mark of slaanesh endlessly canophy from a squad of 10 marines from the red corsairs coming off a flank can ruin guard squads.
Bloodletter bombs also are super effective, being able to tear through a knight or some guardsmen eaily.
Your never going to find a unit that cost - killed will make up for guardsman squads. So you need to also count toughness as well. 3 squads of 3 bikers each is quite cheap and can kill squads of guard easy and still be standing because who wants to target just 3 bikers?
++Battalion+
++Cult of the Damned: Dark Apostles, Dark Disciples, Chaos Cultists++ -1CP
HQ Dark Apostle 100
+Inferno Tome
+Prayers: Benediction of Darkness, Warp-sight plea
Total: 100
Master of Possession 90
+Force Stave 8
+Powers: Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, Smite
+Warlord: Reader of Fate
Total: 98
Chaos Space Marines (x10) 65
+Autocannon 10
+Icon of Vengence 5
+Champion: Chainsword 0
+Champion: Combi-bolter 2
Total: 80
Chaos Space Marines (x10) 65
+Autocannon 10
+Icon of Vengence 5
+Champion: Chainsword 0
+Champion: Combi-bolter 2
Total: 80
Chaos Space Marines (x10) 65
+Autocannon 10
+Icon of Vengence 5
+Champion: Chainsword 0
+Champion: Combi-bolter 2
Total: 80
Chaos Space Marines (x10) 65
+Autocannon 10
+Icon of Vengence 5
+Champion: Chainsword 0
+Champion: Combi-bolter 2
Total: 80
Elites
Dark Disciples (2) 10
++Vanguard++
++Daemonkin Ritualists: Dark Apostles, Dark Disciples, Masters of Possession, Possessed, and Greater Possessed -1CP
HQ Master of Possession 90
+Force Stave 8
+Warptime (-1 CP for Chaos Familiar, replaces Smite or Possession depending on opponent)
+Powers: Mutated Invigoration, Possession, Smite
+Field Commander: Shepherd of the True Faith -1 CP Total: 98
Elite
Greater Possessed 70
Greater Possessed 70
Possessed (x20) 400
+Icon of Wrath 10
Total: 410
++Spearhead++
++Soulforged Pack: Warpsmith and Daemon Engine++ -1CP
HQ Lord Discordant on Helstalker 150
+Baleflamer 30
+Techno-virus Injector 0
+ Field Commander: Master of the Soul Forges -1CP
Total: 180
Heavy Support
Venomcrawler 130
Venomcrawler 130
Obliterators (2) 230
Total: 1996
CP: 10-5= 5CP
Deployment: Chaos Marines take objectives and provide rear support, Cultists screen Dark Apostle, Dark Disciples, Master of Possession Warlord and Obliterators to move up and to hold mid field objectives.
Lord Discordant takes one flank with the Daemon Engines while the other flank is taken by the Possessed Horde and their supporting units.
Your totals on those chaos marines are wrong. 5 marines are 65. +10 for auto cannon, +2 for combi bolter, +5 for icon. From what it looks like to me you have it written as 10 marines for 65 pts.
Azuza001 wrote: Your totals on those chaos marines are wrong. 5 marines are 65. +10 for auto cannon, +2 for combi bolter, +5 for icon. From what it looks like to me you have it written as 10 marines for 65 pts.
Otherwise its not a bad game plan.
You're right. I'm 2 point short on each unit meaning that the list is 8 points shy. Adding those points in puts me 4 over, so drop two of the Stormvolters and it's fixed.
I admit when I first thought of the army (using a detachmrny for each of the detachments that feel fluffy for WB) was a bit silly, but it strangely came together better than I expected. The multiple deathstar like blobs backed by MSUCSM looks like a fun list.
froper98 wrote: Hello, I want to run a sole red-corstairs army led by Huron Blackheart. What units would be best to run to take advantage of the advance and charge trait??
I know I need to take at least 3 units of chaos space marines to get the extra command points but what else should I take??
Hey,
I've been testing out the new Red Corsairs after the Codex&Nihilus release. There's a thread of a build up for my first 1k and then 1,5k list in the army lists section.
Huron, WL, prescience (+1CP)
Chaos Lord on bike (index) - TH, MoS, Intoxicating Elixir relic
5x CSM, bolters, AC, MoS 5x CSM, bolters, AC, MoS 10x CSM, bolters, 2x RCC, MoS
Helbrute, TLC, fist
Helbrute, TLC, scourge
Spearhead (+1CP) - Devastation Battery (-1CP)
Dark Apostle, Field commander (Armour Bane), The Daemon's Eye relic, warpsight plea, 2x Dark Disciples (-1CP)
Havocs, 4x LC, MoS Havocs, 4x RCC, MoS 2x Obliterators (115p/)
Springled with combi-bolters and chainaxes here and there on the champions. Field commander goes nicely with the DA. Big CSM unit uses More Where They Came From -stratagem. Good stratagems so far have also been Endless Cacophony. Also I have been thinking switching the relic on the chaos lord as MoK & talisman, for re-roll charges and 3cp fight twice stratagem, but still doubtful. Punishing volley is also nice. Also the DA's field commander WT to reroll wounds is great with either of the Havocs. You really can hurt stuff if you have a line of sight T1. Huron's re-roll aura, DA's prayer and WT and relic, Endless cacophony is good base for a small gunline, sheriffed by two helbrutes who benefit from the RC advance & still charge.
I'm buying a LD this week to get rid of the only index model in the list, I need to drop those AC's from the CSM squads and one combi-bolter, but then I can fit a LD as my big CC carnifex/distraction. A DP with wings and Death Hex is more intriguing, but I just can't find the points.
I've been using a lot of Mark of Dave's in testing while slowly finishing my new models.. here's few conversion's I made today.
Spoiler:
Some heavy bolter havocs bashed with Kromlech's minigun barrels into RCC's. I only bought two havocs kits so handing those two RCC's to the CSM squad.)
Ordered some 3rd party combi-bolters and for the price they are great quality.
Here's a pic from our gaming board with my recent BA building additions.. Those BA models are actually Red Corsairs Mark of Dave for the win!
This is my working list for my next ITC tournament. The PA Horde.
Am I just the right amount of crazy?
BLACK LEGION +5 CP Abaddon, WL, +2CP, DttFE 5+
Apostle, Disciples, -1 to hit (or 5++ vs DE / high AP armies), Veteran Raider
Exalted, Chainsword, Combibolter, Ghorisvex's Teeth
20 CSM, Chainswords, SLAANESH
19 CSM, Chainswords, SLAANESH
10 Cultists
5 Havocs, Flamer, 4 AC
RED CORSAIRS +8CP Sorcerer, Staff, Warptime, Delightful Agonies
Master of Executions
3x5 CSM, Combi-Bolter, Chaincannon
BLACK LEGION or NIGHT LORDS, HOST RAPTORIAL +1CP Chaos Jump Lord, Thunder Hammer, SLAANESH, Intoxicating Elixirs, Field Commander - Tip of the Claw
3x5 Warp Talons
1995 points.
Starting CP: 19
Extra Relics, Host Raptorial, Extra WL trait, Field Commander = 4CP
There is a large potential for negative leadership by switching to Nurgle icons and their -1 to hit spell as well as Night Lords plus a relic and possibly Haarken if you wanted to trade out the Havocs to fit him in.
This numbers below are not a representation of what WILL happen on the field, but an identifier of how much mileage one can get out.
- 20 CSM, +1A for outnumber, VotLW, 5+ DttFE, reroll hits and wounds (Abaddon & Exalted) - 61 * 1.333 * .888 * .75 * .333 = 18 wounds to any knight
- The exalted gets 6 S4 AP3 D2 attacks with a high chance for extra mortal wounds (and a good secondary target for VotLW).
- The jump lord gets 5 S10 thunderhammer swings and escorts the talons in to block any scary overwatch.
- The Apostle carried the Fallback and Charge trait so I can fallback past the screens and charge deeper in.
Daedalus81 wrote: This is my working list for my next ITC tournament. The PA Horde.
Am I just the right amount of crazy?
BLACK LEGION +5 CP Abaddon, WL, +2CP, DttFE 5+
Apostle, Disciples, -1 to hit (or 5++ vs DE / high AP armies), Veteran Raider
Exalted, Chainsword, Combibolter, Ghorisvex's Teeth
20 CSM, Chainswords, SLAANESH
19 CSM, Chainswords, SLAANESH
10 Cultists
5 Havocs, Flamer, 4 AC
RED CORSAIRS +8CP Sorcerer, Staff, Warptime, Delightful Agonies
Master of Executions
3x5 CSM, Combi-Bolter, Chaincannon
BLACK LEGION or NIGHT LORDS, HOST RAPTORIAL +1CP Chaos Jump Lord, Thunder Hammer, SLAANESH, Intoxicating Elixirs, Field Commander - Tip of the Claw
3x5 Warp Talons
1995 points.
Starting CP: 19
Extra Relics, Host Raptorial, Extra WL trait, Field Commander = 4CP
There is a large potential for negative leadership by switching to Nurgle icons and their -1 to hit spell as well as Night Lords plus a relic and possibly Haarken if you wanted to trade out the Havocs to fit him in.
This numbers below are not a representation of what WILL happen on the field, but an identifier of how much mileage one can get out.
- 20 CSM, +1A for outnumber, VotLW, 5+ DttFE, reroll hits and wounds (Abaddon & Exalted) - 61 * 1.333 * .888 * .75 * .333 = 18 wounds to any knight
- The exalted gets 6 S4 AP3 D2 attacks with a high chance for extra mortal wounds (and a good secondary target for VotLW).
- The jump lord gets 5 S10 thunderhammer swings and escorts the talons in to block any scary overwatch.
- The Apostle carried the Fallback and Charge trait so I can fallback past the screens and charge deeper in.
I like the regen gimmick, but it's really hard for me to pass up on morale immunity, reroll all hits, VotLW, and +1A to outnumber.
Regen plus mobility It's basically secured mobility. Also abbys morale immunity applies to ALL csm units not just bl, it's mainly the rerolls that are only bl in that case but you could always switcharoo the exalted champion maybee?
++Battalion+
++Cult of the Damned: Dark Apostles, Dark Disciples, Chaos Cultists++ -1CP
HQ Dark Apostle 100
+Inferno Tome
+Prayers: Benediction of Darkness, Warp-sight plea
Total: 100
Master of Possession 90
+Force Stave 8
+Powers: Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, Smite
+Warlord: Reader of Fate
Total: 98
Chaos Space Marines (x10) 65
+Autocannon 10
+Icon of Vengence 5
+Champion: Chainsword 0
+Champion: Combi-bolter 2
Total: 80
Chaos Space Marines (x10) 65
+Autocannon 10
+Icon of Vengence 5
+Champion: Chainsword 0
+Champion: Combi-bolter 2
Total: 80
Chaos Space Marines (x10) 65
+Autocannon 10
+Icon of Vengence 5
+Champion: Chainsword 0
+Champion: Combi-bolter 2
Total: 80
Chaos Space Marines (x10) 65
+Autocannon 10
+Icon of Vengence 5
+Champion: Chainsword 0
+Champion: Combi-bolter 2
Total: 80
Elites
Dark Disciples (2) 10
++Vanguard++
++Daemonkin Ritualists: Dark Apostles, Dark Disciples, Masters of Possession, Possessed, and Greater Possessed -1CP
HQ Master of Possession 90
+Force Stave 8
+Warptime (-1 CP for Chaos Familiar, replaces Smite or Possession depending on opponent)
+Powers: Mutated Invigoration, Possession, Smite
+Field Commander: Shepherd of the True Faith -1 CP Total: 98
Elite
Greater Possessed 70
Greater Possessed 70
Possessed (x20) 400
+Icon of Wrath 10
Total: 410
++Spearhead++
++Soulforged Pack: Warpsmith and Daemon Engine++ -1CP
HQ Lord Discordant on Helstalker 150
+Baleflamer 30
+Techno-virus Injector 0
+ Field Commander: Master of the Soul Forges -1CP
Total: 180
Heavy Support
Venomcrawler 130
Venomcrawler 130
Obliterators (2) 230
Total: 1996
CP: 10-5= 5CP
Deployment: Chaos Marines take objectives and provide rear support, Cultists screen Dark Apostle, Dark Disciples, Master of Possession Warlord and Obliterators to move up and to hold mid field objectives.
Lord Discordant takes one flank with the Daemon Engines while the other flank is taken by the Possessed Horde and their supporting units.
You’ve got your DA taking two prayers, neither of which are Dark Zealotry. You’ll have to pick one of +1 to hit or -1 to be hit, I’m afraid. (Surprised we didn’t get strats similar to Chaos Familiar for DA & MoPs.)
I like the regen gimmick, but it's really hard for me to pass up on morale immunity, reroll all hits, VotLW, and +1A to outnumber.
Regen plus mobility It's basically secured mobility. Also abbys morale immunity applies to ALL csm units not just bl, it's mainly the rerolls that are only bl in that case but you could always switcharoo the exalted champion maybee?
Also right ammount of crazy, very much indeed.
Possibly. There are ways to work around deficiencies. An apostle can cover losing VotLW in combat, but the list is more vulnerable to getting sniped that way.
Given that they're running and I have enough CP to reroll advance I'd be ok hoofing it and getting warp time off occasionally. Losing the +1A is probably the biggest thing. I'll have to try it both ways, I guess.
++Battalion+
++Cult of the Damned: Dark Apostles, Dark Disciples, Chaos Cultists++ -1CP
HQ Dark Apostle 100
+Inferno Tome
+Prayers: Benediction of Darkness, Warp-sight plea
Total: 100
Master of Possession 90
+Force Stave 8
+Powers: Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, Smite
+Warlord: Reader of Fate
Total: 98
Chaos Space Marines (x10) 65
+Autocannon 10
+Icon of Vengence 5
+Champion: Chainsword 0
+Champion: Combi-bolter 2
Total: 80
Chaos Space Marines (x10) 65
+Autocannon 10
+Icon of Vengence 5
+Champion: Chainsword 0
+Champion: Combi-bolter 2
Total: 80
Chaos Space Marines (x10) 65
+Autocannon 10
+Icon of Vengence 5
+Champion: Chainsword 0
+Champion: Combi-bolter 2
Total: 80
Chaos Space Marines (x10) 65
+Autocannon 10
+Icon of Vengence 5
+Champion: Chainsword 0
+Champion: Combi-bolter 2
Total: 80
Elites
Dark Disciples (2) 10
++Vanguard++
++Daemonkin Ritualists: Dark Apostles, Dark Disciples, Masters of Possession, Possessed, and Greater Possessed -1CP
HQ Master of Possession 90
+Force Stave 8
+Warptime (-1 CP for Chaos Familiar, replaces Smite or Possession depending on opponent)
+Powers: Mutated Invigoration, Possession, Smite
+Field Commander: Shepherd of the True Faith -1 CP Total: 98
Elite
Greater Possessed 70
Greater Possessed 70
Possessed (x20) 400
+Icon of Wrath 10
Total: 410
++Spearhead++
++Soulforged Pack: Warpsmith and Daemon Engine++ -1CP
HQ Lord Discordant on Helstalker 150
+Baleflamer 30
+Techno-virus Injector 0
+ Field Commander: Master of the Soul Forges -1CP
Total: 180
Heavy Support
Venomcrawler 130
Venomcrawler 130
Obliterators (2) 230
Total: 1996
CP: 10-5= 5CP
Deployment: Chaos Marines take objectives and provide rear support, Cultists screen Dark Apostle, Dark Disciples, Master of Possession Warlord and Obliterators to move up and to hold mid field objectives.
Lord Discordant takes one flank with the Daemon Engines while the other flank is taken by the Possessed Horde and their supporting units.
You’ve got your DA taking two prayers, neither of which are Dark Zealotry. You’ll have to pick one of +1 to hit or -1 to be hit, I’m afraid. (Surprised we didn’t get strats similar to Chaos Familiar for DA & MoPs.)
Daedalus81 wrote: This is my working list for my next ITC tournament. The PA Horde.
Am I just the right amount of crazy?
BLACK LEGION +5 CP Abaddon, WL, +2CP, DttFE 5+
Apostle, Disciples, -1 to hit (or 5++ vs DE / high AP armies), Veteran Raider
Exalted, Chainsword, Combibolter, Ghorisvex's Teeth
20 CSM, Chainswords, SLAANESH
19 CSM, Chainswords, SLAANESH
10 Cultists
5 Havocs, Flamer, 4 AC
RED CORSAIRS +8CP Sorcerer, Staff, Warptime, Delightful Agonies
Master of Executions
3x5 CSM, Combi-Bolter, Chaincannon
BLACK LEGION or NIGHT LORDS, HOST RAPTORIAL +1CP Chaos Jump Lord, Thunder Hammer, SLAANESH, Intoxicating Elixirs, Field Commander - Tip of the Claw
3x5 Warp Talons
1995 points.
Starting CP: 19
Extra Relics, Host Raptorial, Extra WL trait, Field Commander = 4CP
There is a large potential for negative leadership by switching to Nurgle icons and their -1 to hit spell as well as Night Lords plus a relic and possibly Haarken if you wanted to trade out the Havocs to fit him in.
This numbers below are not a representation of what WILL happen on the field, but an identifier of how much mileage one can get out.
- 20 CSM, +1A for outnumber, VotLW, 5+ DttFE, reroll hits and wounds (Abaddon & Exalted) - 61 * 1.333 * .888 * .75 * .333 = 18 wounds to any knight
- The exalted gets 6 S4 AP3 D2 attacks with a high chance for extra mortal wounds (and a good secondary target for VotLW).
- The jump lord gets 5 S10 thunderhammer swings and escorts the talons in to block any scary overwatch.
- The Apostle carried the Fallback and Charge trait so I can fallback past the screens and charge deeper in.
Does this list deal with eldar flyers well? Or with any of the nice ork lists? Similarly - doesn't abaddon die in two turns on average to 3 vindicares worth of fire? So if you go second you will likely get one turn of mileage - if you put him in DS you will lose the morale immunity and aura... Seems like it will be tricky. Also find it interesting you opted against the chain guns on the CSM as via mathhammer they appear somewhat efficient.
Daedalus81 wrote: This is my working list for my next ITC tournament. The PA Horde.
Am I just the right amount of crazy?
Spoiler:
BLACK LEGION +5 CP Abaddon, WL, +2CP, DttFE 5+ Apostle, Disciples, -1 to hit (or 5++ vs DE / high AP armies), Veteran Raider Exalted, Chainsword, Combibolter, Ghorisvex's Teeth 20 CSM, Chainswords, SLAANESH 19 CSM, Chainswords, SLAANESH 10 Cultists 5 Havocs, Flamer, 4 AC
RED CORSAIRS +8CP Sorcerer, Staff, Warptime, Delightful Agonies Master of Executions 3x5 CSM, Combi-Bolter, Chaincannon
BLACK LEGION or NIGHT LORDS, HOST RAPTORIAL +1CP Chaos Jump Lord, Thunder Hammer, SLAANESH, Intoxicating Elixirs, Field Commander - Tip of the Claw 3x5 Warp Talons
1995 points.
Starting CP: 19 Extra Relics, Host Raptorial, Extra WL trait, Field Commander = 4CP
There is a large potential for negative leadership by switching to Nurgle icons and their -1 to hit spell as well as Night Lords plus a relic and possibly Haarken if you wanted to trade out the Havocs to fit him in.
This numbers below are not a representation of what WILL happen on the field, but an identifier of how much mileage one can get out.
- 20 CSM, +1A for outnumber, VotLW, 5+ DttFE, reroll hits and wounds (Abaddon & Exalted) - 61 * 1.333 * .888 * .75 * .333 = 18 wounds to any knight - The exalted gets 6 S4 AP3 D2 attacks with a high chance for extra mortal wounds (and a good secondary target for VotLW). - The jump lord gets 5 S10 thunderhammer swings and escorts the talons in to block any scary overwatch. - The Apostle carried the Fallback and Charge trait so I can fallback past the screens and charge deeper in.
Crazy is a matter of perspective.
A melee jump troop list along with max-sized infantry units. Packs a lot of punch, but you need to get there. With little long-distance shooting, those Warp Talons are going to need to do a lot of work starting Turn 2.
I'd rather see Ghorisvex's Teeth on the Jump Lord along with a Chainsword and the Black Clad Brute Warlord Trait. His punch will increase dramatically. I'm currently running a Chainlord kitted out this way and he's doing an average of about 8 MW each game in addition to normal damage.
The Warp Talons should be the ones escorting him in, given they're the ones who are immune to overwatch the turn they arrive.
The big CSM blobs are what concern me. If you are counting on them to kill Knights, I fear they will get shot up long before they get near. Personally, I'm more a fan of MSUCSMs right now because it screws with split fire and leads to a lot of wasted shots. You might want to consider splitting them up more for this reason.
But no, this is not crazy. Probably wins you 3 out of 5 rounds, minimum.
Does this list deal with eldar flyers well? Or with any of the nice ork lists? Similarly - doesn't abaddon die in two turns on average to 3 vindicares worth of fire? So if you go second you will likely get one turn of mileage - if you put him in DS you will lose the morale immunity and aura... Seems like it will be tricky. Also find it interesting you opted against the chain guns on the CSM as via mathhammer they appear somewhat efficient.
Orks, I think, will be hardest matchup.
Eldar flyers I ignore and go for scoring units and play to draw - talons and jump lord can go for them in a pinch and do fairly well, but if there's a half dozen? Not sure.
3 vindicares vs anything is a mess, but fortunately they don't seem to be popping up around here yet.
The big blobs of CSM are going to be running all the time and points were fairly tight. I have a few CCs with the 3x5 to hold my side of the table down.
A melee jump troop list along with max-sized infantry units. Packs a lot of punch, but you need to get there. With little long-distance shooting, those Warp Talons are going to need to do a lot of work starting Turn 2.
I'd rather see Ghorisvex's Teeth on the Jump Lord along with a Chainsword and the Black Clad Brute Warlord Trait. His punch will increase dramatically. I'm currently running a Chainlord kitted out this way and he's doing an average of about 8 MW each game in addition to normal damage.
The Warp Talons should be the ones escorting him in, given they're the ones who are immune to overwatch the turn they arrive.
The big CSM blobs are what concern me. If you are counting on them to kill Knights, I fear they will get shot up long before they get near. Personally, I'm more a fan of MSUCSMs right now because it screws with split fire and leads to a lot of wasted shots. You might want to consider splitting them up more for this reason.
But no, this is not crazy. Probably wins you 3 out of 5 rounds, minimum.
I'll check that loadout. It does sound tasty. I don't expect 20 CSM to make it to knights, but a bakers dozen plus characters should do well enough. I think it probably seals in Night Lords so that if I get poor run rolls I might be able to force enough guardsmen to flee with the warp talons.
I'll probably wither pretty hard on turn 3 if I don't gain enough ground.
You can take 2 chain cannons in a squad of 10 marines, gives you a lot of firepower in a squad that also can do dmg itself and soak up wounds. You can put them in red corsairs groups so if you lose too many extra wounds you can redeploy and get them back.
Havocs are better with heavy weapons that have massive range, they can walk out of los cover and get at least 1 good turn of shooting on top of using range to protect them.
I'm definitely for chaincannons in MSU chaos marine squads but I don't see how making them more vulnerable to focused fire by adding more bodies is a good idea. Even with some general buffs like red corsairs CSMs are still meh at best. Making them a bigger target does not seem wise.
kaiseric wrote: So reaper chain cannon is better with csm instead of havoc because of short range?
It's just hard to get havocs in range safely, so a single cannon isn't a huge priority for your opponent, but is still effective overall.
Stick 2x5 havocs with chaincannons in a terrax pattern assault drill, add a psyker with prescience, a lord to re-roll 1s, deepstrike, disembark, cast prescience, shoot, use endless cacophony to shoot again with the prescienced unit, 120 shots, 80 of them hitting on 2s
kaiseric wrote: So reaper chain cannon is better with csm instead of havoc because of short range?
It's just hard to get havocs in range safely, so a single cannon isn't a huge priority for your opponent, but is still effective overall.
Stick 2x5 havocs with chaincannons in a terrax pattern assault drill, add a psyker with prescience, a lord to re-roll 1s, deepstrike, disembark, cast prescience, shoot, use endless cacophony to shoot again with the prescienced unit, 120 shots, 80 of them hitting on 2s
Is it worth it to add 134 points to an expensive bomb that will be murdered immediately afterwards?
kaiseric wrote: So reaper chain cannon is better with csm instead of havoc because of short range?
It's just hard to get havocs in range safely, so a single cannon isn't a huge priority for your opponent, but is still effective overall.
Stick 2x5 havocs with chaincannons in a terrax pattern assault drill, add a psyker with prescience, a lord to re-roll 1s, deepstrike, disembark, cast prescience, shoot, use endless cacophony to shoot again with the prescienced unit, 120 shots, 80 of them hitting on 2s
Is it worth it to add 134 points to an expensive bomb that will be murdered immediately afterwards?
If you have the right targets, you're likely killing pretty much their points' worth – taking out roughly 450 points of enemy should be doable. And if your bomb becomes the target of your opponent's wrath afterwards, it's diverting enemy fire away from what's left of the other three quarters of your army (assuming 2000 points here). Failing prescience, or having it denied, will make Heretic Timmy do sad face though, unless your dice like you.
Edit: I just checked out the assault drill. WTF? 134 points with default loadout? If that's not grossly undercosted, I really don't know. T8 3+ that creates a 15" scare zone around it (you don't want that thing in close combat with any of your expensive multi-wound units). I dig it.
kaiseric wrote: So reaper chain cannon is better with csm instead of havoc because of short range?
It's just hard to get havocs in range safely, so a single cannon isn't a huge priority for your opponent, but is still effective overall.
Stick 2x5 havocs with chaincannons in a terrax pattern assault drill, add a psyker with prescience, a lord to re-roll 1s, deepstrike, disembark, cast prescience, shoot, use endless cacophony to shoot again with the prescienced unit, 120 shots, 80 of them hitting on 2s
Is it worth it to add 134 points to an expensive bomb that will be murdered immediately afterwards?
If you have the right targets, you're likely killing pretty much their points' worth – taking out roughly 450 points of enemy should be doable. And if your bomb becomes the target of your opponent's wrath afterwards, it's diverting enemy fire away from what's left of the other three quarters of your army (assuming 2000 points here). Failing prescience, or having it denied, will make Heretic Timmy do sad face though, unless your dice like you.
I follow your logic. So, what are the big targets we're looking for? Guard chaff waves, GSC (would there be enough within range?), Nurglings/plaguebearers. With the 9" restriction on the termite, I'm trying to think of how many a 24" bubble could realistically reach. I can't recall, could you warptime the havocs after disembarking for more range?
the_Jakman wrote: Hey my dudes, quick rules clarification here, is there any reason I can't do the following? This is for a distraction defiler turn 1.
You can do that with the LOD as well, just not with the smoke. And one he is in combat, less likely to get sniped/killed. Of course unless they want to kill him, at which point all the other machines are ready to pounce. It's a trap.
Gordon Shumway wrote: You can do that with the LOD as well, just not with the smoke. And one he is in combat, less likely to get sniped/killed. Of course unless they want to kill him, at which point all the other machines are ready to pounce. It's a trap.
Yea, venomcrawlers are brilliant for this setup since their gun is assault and can still shoot.
Is the Indomitable WL trait for Black Legion only?
Looking to Do a Red Corsairs Soulforged Pack with two LoD, one with the Indomitable WL trait, and the second with the Field Commander to get he soulforged WL trait.
I'm struggling to see why you would want to take 20 csm with chainsaws over beserkers, who just seem to do the job better, for less points, and less Cp needed?
mrtomski wrote: I'm struggling to see why you would want to take 20 csm with chainsaws over beserkers, who just seem to do the job better, for less points, and less Cp needed?
You wouldn't. You can make an okayish version with chosen but again, might as well take berserkers.
With 20 CSM with chain swords, you can lose most of them and then bring the whole unit back again. Something you cannot do with Berserkers. Also you can start them on the table and use the strat to pull them off and put them 9 inches away from your opponent. It is an instant threat that can do some heavy work and cant rightly be ignored.
KnightScion wrote: With 20 CSM with chain swords, you can lose most of them and then bring the whole unit back again. Something you cannot do with Berserkers. Also you can start them on the table and use the strat to pull them off and put them 9 inches away from your opponent. It is an instant threat that can do some heavy work and cant rightly be ignored.
40 S4 AP0 D1 attacks, hitting on a 3+ against most things.
Against...
GEQs-You kill 12
MEQs-4 and a half wounds
TEQs-You kill 1
Rhino-Just under 3 wounds
Leman Russ or IK-1 and a half wounds
The ONLY real threat that unit poses is the ability to tie stuff up.
KnightScion wrote: With 20 CSM with chain swords, you can lose most of them and then bring the whole unit back again. Something you cannot do with Berserkers. Also you can start them on the table and use the strat to pull them off and put them 9 inches away from your opponent. It is an instant threat that can do some heavy work and cant rightly be ignored.
Unless I'm mistaken you are talking about alpha legion strat + red corsair strat, which would be mutually exclusive.
Also you need something to stop moral from destroying them.
Just cant see it being that good, beserkers give you more for less, yes you can't spend 3 cp to bring them back, but you can use those spare points and cp on other things.
Onto another point, I'm looking at the kytan, I think he's overpriced but probably can be buffed to be worth his points.
What do we have which is good at clearing screens t1? I was thinking some bikers, but do we have anything better? (Would need to be able to get in range t1 to make the cut). I cant think of anything which is particularly cheap with loads of shots.
kaiseric wrote: So reaper chain cannon is better with csm instead of havoc because of short range?
It's just hard to get havocs in range safely, so a single cannon isn't a huge priority for your opponent, but is still effective overall.
Stick 2x5 havocs with chaincannons in a terrax pattern assault drill, add a psyker with prescience, a lord to re-roll 1s, deepstrike, disembark, cast prescience, shoot, use endless cacophony to shoot again with the prescienced unit, 120 shots, 80 of them hitting on 2s
Is it worth it to add 134 points to an expensive bomb that will be murdered immediately afterwards?
If you have the right targets, you're likely killing pretty much their points' worth – taking out roughly 450 points of enemy should be doable. And if your bomb becomes the target of your opponent's wrath afterwards, it's diverting enemy fire away from what's left of the other three quarters of your army (assuming 2000 points here). Failing prescience, or having it denied, will make Heretic Timmy do sad face though, unless your dice like you.
I follow your logic. So, what are the big targets we're looking for? Guard chaff waves, GSC (would there be enough within range?), Nurglings/plaguebearers. With the 9" restriction on the termite, I'm trying to think of how many a 24" bubble could realistically reach. I can't recall, could you warptime the havocs after disembarking for more range?
Warptime can’t be used on units on the turn they arrive. The ruling is buried in the Index: Chaos FAQ from a year ago, and the new Codex replicates the old wording of Warptime; I guess we’re going to see a fair number of new CSM collectors finding out their Terminators can’t teleport, move, flame, and charge.
Hope they collate & compile our Index & Codex (and, for that matter, Big) FAQs, because the amount of back-and-forth is getting beyond a joke now.
kaiseric wrote: So reaper chain cannon is better with csm instead of havoc because of short range?
It's just hard to get havocs in range safely, so a single cannon isn't a huge priority for your opponent, but is still effective overall.
Stick 2x5 havocs with chaincannons in a terrax pattern assault drill, add a psyker with prescience, a lord to re-roll 1s, deepstrike, disembark, cast prescience, shoot, use endless cacophony to shoot again with the prescienced unit, 120 shots, 80 of them hitting on 2s
Mmm, they’re not arriving until T2, which could mean the chaff has advanced so far your anti-chaff deepstrikers end up having to deep strike into your own deployment zone. And if you wanted to clear chaff to make room for your own deep strike specialist units, that’s putting their arrival back unit T3 at the earliest.
Chaincannon havocs hiding at the start of the game then popping EC with buffs should be enough to put a dent in most screens.
kaiseric wrote: So reaper chain cannon is better with csm instead of havoc because of short range?
It's just hard to get havocs in range safely, so a single cannon isn't a huge priority for your opponent, but is still effective overall.
Would be probably less of an issue if we could take more then 5 per squad....
Can’t even take five, it’s four Havocs with heavy weapons and a Champion with a special weapon.
RAW, the Champion can have a Plasma Gun and a combi-Plasma. Probably won’t get errata’d this time round, so we can burn points on it for a good six months
I for one welcome our new slaanesh combo herald/daemon prince overlord. I look forward to him/her splashing +1 strength, reroll 1s and move and advance onto our daemon engines.
kaiseric wrote: So reaper chain cannon is better with csm instead of havoc because of short range?
It's just hard to get havocs in range safely, so a single cannon isn't a huge priority for your opponent, but is still effective overall.
Stick 2x5 havocs with chaincannons in a terrax pattern assault drill, add a psyker with prescience, a lord to re-roll 1s, deepstrike, disembark, cast prescience, shoot, use endless cacophony to shoot again with the prescienced unit, 120 shots, 80 of them hitting on 2s
No, your adding 24 shots from nowhere.
It's 96 shots. 64 hitting on 2's.
It requires 5 units at about 600 points. I think it's really swingy. I've already used a drill with one unit and some berzerkers and the double shoot. It can be devastating. it can also be a dud. You can easily butcher the first target and be out of range from anything else. So you need to get close. So smart players will game this hard and force you to deploy as close to their screening unit as possible, at which point they will auspex scan (or the equivalent) and murder your guys. You can always deploy 12.1" away if they are not eldar, but now your making the first issue worse, the one where you shoot the first 32 shots and murder the screen and kill yourself out of range. I think this needs to be in the right list but is definitely viable.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I have been having a lot of fun lately with the following list.
Red Corsair Battalion
Huron (warptime)
Lord Discordant Baleflamer
5 CSM autocanon
5 CSM autocanon
5 CSM lascanon
Red Corsair Spearhead Soulforged pack
Lord Discordant Baleflamer MoK (talisman of burning blood) +2" move WLT Lord Discordant Baleflamer MoS (intoxicating Elixir)
5 CSM lascanon
Maulerfiend Lasher tendrils
Maulerfiend Lasher tendrils
Venom Crawler
Venom Crawler
1499
In the spirit of the drill reapers you could easily scale this up to 2k by adding a drill with 2x5 reaper chain canon havoc squads and switch hurons power prescience since you get the same buff but as a lord and sorcerer all in one. The lord discordants solve to early game screen removal well since they can easily get turn 1 charges off which should force your opponents deployment way back. The drill and 2 havoc squads takes it to1933, so room for tweaking. I also think I would move the elixir to the battalion LD and give the other soulforged LD the mechtendril relic for 1 CP
Particularly cheap? Not really. You could go trip bikes with flamers and advance / shoot. But units good at clearing screens? Those 20 marines you just talked about have some value.
Take them, put 2 chain cannons in there. Use bolters (dont be charging with chaos marines, their bolters will always out perform their fists even with a chainsword) and give them mark of slaanesh. T1 have them redeploy with the red corsair strat into double tap range and unload. Give the champ a combi bolter too. Thats 38 bolter shots and 16 chain cannon shots, that should kill a screen or 2. If needed have them shoot again using endless canophy. Between it all you should kill 8-12 guardsmen with the bolters and another 4-5 from the chainguns. Assuming the 2nd time you shoot its not double tap you should still easily kill 20 guardsmen (yes i know OMG, 300 pts to kill 80 guard). Thats quite a bit of chaff cleared out of the way for that deamon prince that advanced and warp timed himself to charge into something of value. Also buys the rest of your force time to get into position for a turn 2 charge / make a good landing zone for those oblits to drop in next turn. If your opponent does shoot at the marines and kills them then they didnt shoot at all the other good stuff you have, and if they do but just 1 guy manages to live, well, whats another few cp right?
Not the most point effective way to run them, for sure, but sometimes its not just about one unit vs one unit in a vacume, its about army synergy. If 300 pts of marines can buy me time to do what i want with the other 1700, i call that a valid use. And if your opponent does just ignore the marines well, they can just keep on killing more stuff.
What are our options against Flyer spam and -1 to hit lists? I feel like CSM is now in a very strong place but we still match up really poorly against the Eldar Flyer list or any other list that can kite and stay out of melee. While we do have access to decent shooting units, these units don't tend to stack up well against -1 to hit debuffs.
Some of the options I've thought about:
- Jump Lord with thunder hammer / relic
- Winged DPs - Deredeo
- Hellforged Leviathan
- Hellforged Sicaran
Is there anything else I'm missing?
In my most recent game I used a WB Chaos Lord with The Cursed Crozius (although thunder hammer is probably better) and a Khorne Winged DP to good effect. My opponent was using a CHE and Hemlock and my flying duo managed to rip both of them out of the sky with a little assisstance and poor positioning by my opponent. However, I don't think my list has any answers to 3+ (or well positioned) flyers.
drakerocket wrote: I for one welcome our new slaanesh combo herald/daemon prince overlord. I look forward to him/her splashing +1 strength, reroll 1s and move and advance onto our daemon engines.
That new herald/daemon prince is op. If taken in a solely slanaash daemon detachment, he gives 3 auras! +1 str to all slanaash daemons, reroll all 1s to hit, and advance and charge. And his damage... If you thought LD was bad at 12 attacks. If this new guy is within charge range of 2 units, he could do 16 attack (at a minimum, because one of his weapon profiles is actually d3 attacks for each attack). So, one big lot of 8 str 8 attacks at damage 3 and another 8d3 attacks at str 5, AP -1, damage 1... its absolutely bonkers.
And our CSM units with daemon keyword can benefit from all 3 of his auras. We just need to make them mark of slanaash.
drakerocket wrote: I for one welcome our new slaanesh combo herald/daemon prince overlord. I look forward to him/her splashing +1 strength, reroll 1s and move and advance onto our daemon engines.
That new herald/daemon prince is op. If taken in a solely slanaash daemon detachment, he gives 3 auras! +1 str to all slanaash daemons, reroll all 1s to hit, and advance and charge. And his damage... If you thought LD was bad at 12 attacks. If this new guy is within charge range of 2 units, he could do 16 attack (at a minimum, because one of his weapon profiles is actually d3 attacks for each attack). So, one big lot of 8 str 8 attacks at damage 3 and another 8d3 attacks at str 5, AP -1, damage 1... its absolutely bonkers.
And our CSM units with daemon keyword can benefit from all 3 of his auras. We just need to make them mark of slanaash.
I agree, insanely powerful, 9 inch move too so can keep up with deamon engines. Really strong screen clearing with 8d3 s5 -1ap attacks + another 8. An 8 wound character too... got to be around 250 points?
Not sure why, but my gut says the new combo prince will be a bit undercosted at 195 points. That's my guess!
I do think 9 inches is a bit of a snag. If they get the +3" move warlord trait, that will be fabulous. But 9" move to keep up with our 12" or 14" daemon engines won't quite cut it, particularly since your goal is going to be a first turn charge.
So would you guys pick a Venomcrawler over a Defiler as a lone distraction carnifex? The Venom is faster, has an assault weapon with BS that doesn't degrade, regenerates more, explodes on a 5+ and is cheaper. The Defiler has more guns with worse BS, more starting wounds, hits a LOT harder in CC and is 20 pts more expensive (the way I was planning to run it).
Also, according to Battlescribe, the Venomcrawler has no smoke launchers.
I'm torn.
EDIT: Would you go with a Terminator Sorc or a Jump Sorc to support a large squad of Terminators? Is the extra maneuverability worth the sacrifice in durability? Having a HQ with only a 3+ save kinda triggers me.
If it's going alone, go with the defiler. Venomcrawler will get squished much faster. If the sorc. Is just going to hang with the termies, use termie armor. You don't need mobility with him. Really, if he is just going with the termies, you could probably get by with running him naked unless you want him to deepstrike.
I'm team jump pack. He's not getting shot at if you sit him behind the terminators and if your opponent has a Vindicare or similar you just need to cop that. If you are running a termi bomb you mostly need him for the turn he drops down anyway.
Looking to Do a Red Corsairs Soulforged Pack with two LoD, one with the Indomitable WL trait, and the second with the Field Commander to get he soulforged WL trait.
Fellow apostles from the Word Bearers - our relic (Cursed Crozius) in the CSM codex states that it replaces the bearers power mail.
The new Dark Apostle datasheet in Vigilus Ablaze has him holding an "Accursed Crozius". The "Cursed Crozius" is still a slightly better weapon, and I'm assuming this will be FAQ'd, but I'm wondering if anyone with the Second Edition Chaos Codex can confirm if the wording for the Word Bearers relic is different?
Also, I can't find the Master of Possessions rules in Vigilus Ablaze... Everything else is there except him.
Raichase wrote: Fellow apostles from the Word Bearers - our relic (Cursed Crozius) in the CSM codex states that it replaces the bearers power mail.
The new Dark Apostle datasheet in Vigilus Ablaze has him holding an "Accursed Crozius". The "Cursed Crozius" is still a slightly better weapon, and I'm assuming this will be FAQ'd, but I'm wondering if anyone with the Second Edition Chaos Codex can confirm if the wording for the Word Bearers relic is different?
Also, I can't find the Master of Possessions rules in Vigilus Ablaze... Everything else is there except him.
Thanks in advance!
To my knowledge your corzius now can indeed not be replaced by it anymore due to GW's wisdom.
And MoPs rules are in codex 2 and the mini Daemonkin codex not vigilus ablaze
Automatically Appended Next Post: Basically the Daemonkin mini codex that came with shadowspear has all the updated/new rules for stuff in the shadowspear box.
Vigilus ablaze has updated/new datasheets for everything else that is new that wasn't in shadowspear like Havocs and terminators, lord Discordant dark Apostle etc.
Codex 2 has everything from the original codex plus Daemonkin plus vigilus ablaze
However, none of the vigilus ablaze exclusive stuff is in the codex 2. (Specialist detachments and Black legion extra relics and strats)
If you want all the rules you need either
Codex 2 and vigilus ablaze
Or
Codex 1, Daemonkin and vigilus ablaze
It's kind of a pain in the arse tbh. Although I believe you can download the Daemonkin codex to be fair...
It's kind of a pain in the arse tbh. Although I believe you can download the Daemonkin codex to be fair...
You can download the datasheets for the MoP, GPs, Oblits and Venomcrawler. The PDF file includes the psychic powers from the Malefic discipline for the MoP. It does not include any points values, nor does it include the new warlord traits for heretic astartes psykers. The latter are only in the Shadowspear mini-dex. It's quite a mess, really. And once you start using the new Slaaneshi herald/prince and a new KoS, you have even more loose bits of paper/random files to sift through. We'll all end up looking like some Eccesiarchy scribe's lackey every time we show up anywhere for a game...
No, no, wait a minute... I have it here somewhere...
saint_red wrote: What are our options against Flyer spam and -1 to hit lists? I feel like CSM is now in a very strong place but we still match up really poorly against the Eldar Flyer list or any other list that can kite and stay out of melee. While we do have access to decent shooting units, these units don't tend to stack up well against -1 to hit debuffs.
Some of the options I've thought about:
- Jump Lord with thunder hammer / relic
- Winged DPs - Deredeo
- Hellforged Leviathan
- Hellforged Sicaran
Is there anything else I'm missing?
In my most recent game I used a WB Chaos Lord with The Cursed Crozius (although thunder hammer is probably better) and a Khorne Winged DP to good effect. My opponent was using a CHE and Hemlock and my flying duo managed to rip both of them out of the sky with a little assisstance and poor positioning by my opponent. However, I don't think my list has any answers to 3+ (or well positioned) flyers.
We have a few very good options to choose from, its all about figuring out how you want to to about doing it and what your running.
Besides what you have already said, here are a few other ideas.
If your playing black legion then havocs and abadon is an easy answer. The rules changes to abby now mean that you can reroll any dice you want qhen rolling for failed hits so those 3's and 4's that should hit but miss after modifiers can be rerolled. That helps give you some more reliable firepower.
Helldrakes are often laughed at but look at their cost with a bale flamer vs a hemlock. Now keep in mind the helldrake auto hits with the bale flamer and can charge the hemlock.
If anyone else has any ideas i would like to hear them as well.
mrtomski wrote: I'm struggling to see why you would want to take 20 csm with chainsaws over beserkers, who just seem to do the job better, for less points, and less Cp needed?
1) They would be elites if not World Eaters
2) I can't give berzerkers a 5+++ or a -1 to hit through psychic phase
3) With outnumber I get the same number of attacks as a beserker with chainsword
4) For every 13 bezerkers I can get 16 CSM (but I wouldn't need an apostle since they're S5)
5) Innate fight twice is great, but often never comes into play
6) I'd take Abaddon over Kharn all day for rerolls to hit and hitting power
mrtomski wrote: I'm struggling to see why you would want to take 20 csm with chainsaws over beserkers, who just seem to do the job better, for less points, and less Cp needed?
1) They would be elites if not World Eaters
2) I can't give berzerkers a 5+++ or a -1 to hit through psychic phase
3) With outnumber I get the same number of attacks as a beserker with chainsword
4) For every 13 bezerkers I can get 16 CSM (but I wouldn't need an apostle since they're S5)
5) Innate fight twice is great, but often never comes into play
6) I'd take Abaddon over Kharn all day for rerolls to hit and hitting power
And that's testable - you could compare the mathhammer for Berzerkers with fight twice versus Black Legion CSMs with full rerolls from Abaddon + special rules.
I haven't done it yet but suspect CSMs edge out the Berzerkers in many situations. First Amongst Traitors, for instance, is going to spawn a lot of extra hits.
mrtomski wrote: I'm struggling to see why you would want to take 20 csm with chainsaws over beserkers, who just seem to do the job better, for less points, and less Cp needed?
1) They would be elites if not World Eaters
2) I can't give berzerkers a 5+++ or a -1 to hit through psychic phase
3) With outnumber I get the same number of attacks as a beserker with chainsword
4) For every 13 bezerkers I can get 16 CSM (but I wouldn't need an apostle since they're S5)
5) Innate fight twice is great, but often never comes into play
6) I'd take Abaddon over Kharn all day for rerolls to hit and hitting power
1) OK you could argue that that's 65 points saved - but if you are using your CSM, or cultists for other purposes not really such a big deal.
2) True enough, but you can put them in a rhino to protect them and apply those buffs to the rhino if you want (and get to -2)
3) s4 ap 0 attacks, not s6 ap -1 attacks which are much better
5) I don't have much experience here, but if you don't wipe something you are going to swing twice right?
6) adding another 200+ point dependecy isn't really selling the 20 man blog
The issue with the swing twice ability is that berserkers are often hitting something dangerous and hitting it early. Generally that means your opponent has the desire and cp to interrupt
Abaddon303 wrote: The issue with the swing twice ability is that berserkers are often hitting something dangerous and hitting it early. Generally that means your opponent has the desire and cp to interrupt
But that does mean that they used their one interrupt and 2 CP on your Zerkers, and not, say, your Defilers, or Maulerfiends, or Abaddon, or Kharne, or...
Well yes, but that also means they probably wiped your berserkers whereas the defilers, maulerfiend or ab can probably tank a bit more damage.
Regardless, as a straight up comparison, chosen with chainaxes and the outnumber strat are putting out 3 S5 -1 attacks compared to berserkers 2 S6 -1 and 1 S5 0 attacks so they're better against T4,T7 and T8 which are probably your most common targets.
It's definitely food for thought as they come in 2pts per model cheaper than berserkers and also have a free bolter or an option to take combos/specials. Certainly they have more versatility while now being able to hold their own in melee alongside berserkers
Abaddon303 wrote: Well yes, but that also means they probably wiped your berserkers whereas the defilers, maulerfiend or ab can probably tank a bit more damage.
Regardless, as a straight up comparison, chosen with chainaxes and the outnumber strat are putting out 3 S5 -1 attacks compared to berserkers 2 S6 -1 and 1 S5 0 attacks so they're better against T4,T7 and T8 which are probably your most common targets.
It's definitely food for thought as they come in 2pts per model cheaper than berserkers and also have a free bolter or an option to take combos/specials. Certainly they have more versatility while now being able to hold their own in melee alongside berserkers
What's stopping you from using Outnumbered on Berserkers?
(AFB, so they might not be able to-I legitimately do not know.)
I'm sorry, why are we ignoring the fact that the Berzerkers get to fight twice just because your opponent might use a stratagem to interrupt? Like, there is no world where Chosen are even remotely anywhere near as good in melee as Khorne Berzerkers. Fight Twice isn't just the ability to get more attacks, it's the ability to kill something, consolidate and then punch something that was behind what you just killed. Berzerkers are so much better that it's silly.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'm sorry, why are we ignoring the fact that the Berzerkers get to fight twice just because your opponent might use a stratagem to interrupt? Like, there is no world where Chosen are even remotely anywhere near as good in melee as Khorne Berzerkers. Fight Twice isn't just the ability to get more attacks, it's the ability to kill something, consolidate and then punch something that was behind what you just killed. Berzerkers are so much better that it's silly.
It's the ever-present Dakka-Fallacy where your opponent has an infinite amount of CP and will immediately destroy your plans at the worst possible time.
I also do not believe that Berzerkers can be beaten for the cost in this scenario. Also, if they force my opponent to burn 2 cp...well...that's fine with me.
1) OK you could argue that that's 65 points saved - but if you are using your CSM, or cultists for other purposes not really such a big deal.
2) True enough, but you can put them in a rhino to protect them and apply those buffs to the rhino if you want (and get to -2)
3) s4 ap 0 attacks, not s6 ap -1 attacks which are much better
5) I don't have much experience here, but if you don't wipe something you are going to swing twice right?
6) adding another 200+ point dependecy isn't really selling the 20 man blog
With the first two points you've massively expanded the cost of the list. I love rhinos and I'd totally stick beserkers in them if they got a new kit. The down side is that you need 150 in cultists and then 140 in rhinos for 20 guys. That means 630 points for the role of 260 before buffs. Now, granted the rhinos will be super useful to block overwatch and such, but they stick out like a sore thumb in a list with no other vehicles. That's why I opted for the Warp Talons to block.
3 S4s AP0 vs 2 S6 AP1 can be a wash, but not in all scenarios. Fight twice helps a lot for scenarios where the opponent hasn't been overkilled yet.
Would chainaxe beserkers do better than CSM against a knight with the same buffs? Absolutely, but you have to consider the cost of getting them there.
Abaddon I wouldn't call a dependency. He's extremely formidable, blocks all morale, and gives reroll all hits instead of just failed hits with Kharn. He can easily put a lot of hurt on knights now, too.
I see a lot of folks adding Abadon to non-Black-Legion lists... Are you doing that at the expense of their pure Legion bonuses... or making a whole BL detachment w/taxes just to include him?
I think rhinos are actually helped a bit in combination with daemon engines. They have very similar defensive profiles. Sure, everyone likes to say that rhinos will get shot off the board turn one and so will lords discordant.
But if the only things on the board are daemon engines, rhinos and characters? Your opponent isn't going to blow up 8-10 vehicles turn one. Do they choose to blow up your party bus of zerkers, your party bus of havocs or your daemon engines?
drakerocket wrote: I think rhinos are actually helped a bit in combination with daemon engines. They have very similar defensive profiles. Sure, everyone likes to say that rhinos will get shot off the board turn one and so will lords discordant.
But if the only things on the board are daemon engines, rhinos and characters? Your opponent isn't going to blow up 8-10 vehicles turn one. Do they choose to blow up your party bus of zerkers, your party bus of havocs or your daemon engines?
Yes, I can see a path to a very effective monster-mash style list with low CP. That won't be on the table for me until I afford the Discordant (or two). Abaddon always comes first.
I don't even think you need to make it low CP. Red Corsairs can boost you up great and totally are a good spot for zerkers. Take 3 squads of CSM and either put a pair of them in rhino or hide them out of LoS to guard backfield objectives.
Warptime can’t be used on units on the turn they arrive. The ruling is buried in the Index: Chaos FAQ from a year ago, and the new Codex replicates the old wording of Warptime; I guess we’re going to see a fair number of new CSM collectors finding out their Terminators can’t teleport, move, flame, and charge.
Hope they collate & compile our Index & Codex (and, for that matter, Big) FAQs, because the amount of back-and-forth is getting beyond a joke now.
It's almost like GW should stop acting like it's 1985 and just make all the rules living documents in PDF format for free so they can fix and update rules without causing constant messes... And maybe avoid selling everyone a 2.0 codex that's supposed to help with that yet hilariously has incorrect points in it.
Warptime can’t be used on units on the turn they arrive. The ruling is buried in the Index: Chaos FAQ from a year ago, and the new Codex replicates the old wording of Warptime; I guess we’re going to see a fair number of new CSM collectors finding out their Terminators can’t teleport, move, flame, and charge.
Hope they collate & compile our Index & Codex (and, for that matter, Big) FAQs, because the amount of back-and-forth is getting beyond a joke now.
It's almost like GW should stop acting like it's 1985 and just make all the rules living documents in PDF format for free so they can fix and update rules without causing constant messes... And maybe avoid selling everyone a 2.0 codex that's supposed to help with that yet hilariously has incorrect points in it.
No money in that, with the ca they basically they sell us allready a balance Patch and they will continue to do so.
Thanks for the replies guys, I'll head online and get the updated datasheets for the existing models and the new ones not included in Vigilus. If there's no points values then I guess I'll just get those models for free, muhahaha.
Raichase wrote: Fellow apostles from the Word Bearers - our relic (Cursed Crozius) in the CSM codex states that it replaces the bearers power mail.
The new Dark Apostle datasheet in Vigilus Ablaze has him holding an "Accursed Crozius". The "Cursed Crozius" is still a slightly better weapon, and I'm assuming this will be FAQ'd, but I'm wondering if anyone with the Second Edition Chaos Codex can confirm if the wording for the Word Bearers relic is different?
Also, I can't find the Master of Possessions rules in Vigilus Ablaze... Everything else is there except him.
Thanks in advance!
To my knowledge your corzius now can indeed not be replaced by it anymore due to GW's wisdom.
saint_red wrote: What are our options against Flyer spam and -1 to hit lists? I feel like CSM is now in a very strong place but we still match up really poorly against the Eldar Flyer list or any other list that can kite and stay out of melee. While we do have access to decent shooting units, these units don't tend to stack up well against -1 to hit debuffs.
Some of the options I've thought about:
- Jump Lord with thunder hammer / relic
- Winged DPs - Deredeo
- Hellforged Leviathan
- Hellforged Sicaran
Is there anything else I'm missing?
In my most recent game I used a WB Chaos Lord with The Cursed Crozius (although thunder hammer is probably better) and a Khorne Winged DP to good effect. My opponent was using a CHE and Hemlock and my flying duo managed to rip both of them out of the sky with a little assisstance and poor positioning by my opponent. However, I don't think my list has any answers to 3+ (or well positioned) flyers.
We have a few very good options to choose from, its all about figuring out how you want to to about doing it and what your running.
Besides what you have already said, here are a few other ideas.
If your playing black legion then havocs and abadon is an easy answer. The rules changes to abby now mean that you can reroll any dice you want qhen rolling for failed hits so those 3's and 4's that should hit but miss after modifiers can be rerolled. That helps give you some more reliable firepower.
Helldrakes are often laughed at but look at their cost with a bale flamer vs a hemlock. Now keep in mind the helldrake auto hits with the bale flamer and can charge the hemlock.
If anyone else has any ideas i would like to hear them as well.
Great point about the BL havocs, I'll have to mathhammer that when I get home. I don't play BL but for more competitive games I could chuck in a detachment.
I don't think the Helldrake is going to be more points efficient than the other options listed there but I'll investigate that too.
I think at the moment I might look at adding a Deredeo or just more DPs.
Raichase wrote: Fellow apostles from the Word Bearers - our relic (Cursed Crozius) in the CSM codex states that it replaces the bearers power mail.
The new Dark Apostle datasheet in Vigilus Ablaze has him holding an "Accursed Crozius". The "Cursed Crozius" is still a slightly better weapon, and I'm assuming this will be FAQ'd, but I'm wondering if anyone with the Second Edition Chaos Codex can confirm if the wording for the Word Bearers relic is different?
Also, I can't find the Master of Possessions rules in Vigilus Ablaze... Everything else is there except him.
Thanks in advance!
To my knowledge your corzius now can indeed not be replaced by it anymore due to GW's wisdom.
Technically, it’s not under the model’s Wargear Options box. But, gramatically, equipping them with a Power Maul is an option.
Aight except that you always need to pick the most update ruleset and secondly the DA never did have any upgrade options (beyond boltpistol into other pistols or Combiweapons) , so no, you can't get a power maul on a DA due to it simply not beeing a wargear option or him not having access even in the idex for the corect wargear options.
Which sucks for fluffy WB players, especially now that the DA is actually worth his points....
More specifically no flowchart in ETC I think. If you have no codex and your only options are index you are(almost certainly though don't quote me on that) fine.
If you have codex though then any options not covered by that but covered by index are out. So no regular big mek with KFF or warboss with mega armour for orks, for eldars no autarch with missile launcher(I think that was the index option for eldar) etc.
So going back to an earlier conversation on this thread, it seems like the thinking is it is better to spread the chain-guns around in CSM squads, rather than use 4 in a havoc squad? I can see reasons for using both tactics.
xeen wrote: So going back to an earlier conversation on this thread, it seems like the thinking is it is better to spread the chain-guns around in CSM squads, rather than use 4 in a havoc squad? I can see reasons for using both tactics.
I mean a big issue with havoc squads is just the fact that losing wounds on the unit quickly means losing guns, while this isnt the case with the CSM squads. But that being said, havocs being able to move and shoot makes a big difference. I don't think its mutually exclusive, both options are good as long as you are getting chaincannons somewhere in your life
The advantage of CSM squads is that they're Troops as well, so you can have your CP battery dudes actually contribute something other than sitting around.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The advantage of CSM squads is that they're Troops as well, so you can have your CP battery dudes actually contribute something other than sitting around.
I'm planning on testing this heavily. Using them in a devastation battery is part of my plan as an early chaff-clear. The idea is to have so many other scary units to shoot at that they might get passed over. I mean, they're -just- havocs.....
So it is a bit more off-topic from marines specifically, but has anyone given much thought to, of all things, ogryn mutant hound packs?
Like, okay, renegades and heretics garbage generally but....the doggies are 2 wound S 5 T 5 2 attack models for 10 points. Realistically they are probably going to have +1 strength from the khorne covenant, +1 to hit from the goad and +1 attacks from charging.
So in reality, they are S 6 T 5 2W 3A 3+ WS models for 10 points a pop...or without the khorne covenant, which has some strings, still S5. That seems dare I say...pretty good?
The big thing though is that they can be stuffed in a valk with a max unit of 9+the ogryn and first turn charge with no effort. Grav chute into 9 inches, move 6, easy charge. It will eat a guard squad then probably consolidate into another guard squad or a nearby vehicle. It's like, 230~250 or so including the valk? I mean, the enemy has to kill it then, and also the valk (which itself could easily clear out sommore screens and then first turn charge if put in hover).
That seems like a lot of disruption for the price tag.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The advantage of CSM squads is that they're Troops as well, so you can have your CP battery dudes actually contribute something other than sitting around.
Even more than that, it's about the efficiency of the weapon. Bolter marines don't do much for their point. The Chain Cannon does SO MUCH for its points that it makes up for the rest of the squad doing so little. No other heavy weapon will. Other heavy weapons can be decent on havocs because 4/5 of the squad gets them. Autocannons and Lascannons do okay for their points (stay away from missile launchers and heavy bolters), especially with move+shoot and t5 for only 1pt. 5 guys with 4 autocannons is a decent squad. 5 guy with 1 autocannon are irrelevant. That's why CSM need the Chain Cannon.
drakerocket wrote: So it is a bit more off-topic from marines specifically, but has anyone given much thought to, of all things, ogryn mutant hound packs?
Like, okay, renegades and heretics garbage generally but....the doggies are 2 wound S 5 T 5 2 attack models for 10 points. Realistically they are probably going to have +1 strength from the khorne covenant, +1 to hit from the goad and +1 attacks from charging.
So in reality, they are S 6 T 5 2W 3A 3+ WS models for 10 points a pop...or without the khorne covenant, which has some strings, still S5. That seems dare I say...pretty good?
The big thing though is that they can be stuffed in a valk with a max unit of 9+the ogryn and first turn charge with no effort. Grav chute into 9 inches, move 6, easy charge. It will eat a guard squad then probably consolidate into another guard squad or a nearby vehicle. It's like, 230~250 or so including the valk? I mean, the enemy has to kill it then, and also the valk (which itself could easily clear out sommore screens and then first turn charge if put in hover).
That seems like a lot of disruption for the price tag.
yeah, until you realize that the average ogryn berzerker squad is just way better. You will also waste a Warlord trait on a 25pts commander to get the Covenant. Also there is a renegades tactica.
I'm not sure I've ever seen rules for ogryn berzerkers. Where are they located?
Right under,
You get 2 brutes allready for a min mauler pack, but get more strentgh more damage more combat stimms and access to the most broken weapons in the renegades arsenal, the power drill on the berzerkerboss:
S 10 ap-3 Dd3 with 5-8 attacks.
Edit: just realized that you don't have the rules and are using Battlescribe.
Makes sense disregard my statement where to find them.
Ah right! My mistake, I'd forgotten that berserker is the name of the ogryn leader option and not a different unit in and of themselves. I do have the rules, just on my tablet and not my phone >.>
I do agree that they are quite strong. Certainly much better against multi-wound or vehicles. A bit of a wash against 1 wound models vs the hounds (maybe 15-20% better) and certainly fewer wounds (half). The bodies also allow for a broader range of melee shenanigans.
I think I'd favor the hounds for disruption and the ogryn for wrecking big targets.
Still though, I'm surprised you don't see them occasionally. They seems solidly good.
drakerocket wrote: Ah right! My mistake, I'd forgotten that berserker is the name of the ogryn leader option and not a different unit in and of themselves. I do have the rules, just on my tablet and not my phone >.>
I do agree that they are quite strong. Certainly much better against multi-wound or vehicles. A bit of a wash against 1 wound models vs the hounds (maybe 15-20% better) and certainly fewer wounds (half). The bodies also allow for a broader range of melee shenanigans.
I think I'd favor the hounds for disruption and the ogryn for wrecking big targets.
Still though, I'm surprised you don't see them occasionally. They seems solidly good.
Basically the ogryn dart (any variation) is about the best thing beyond the marauder squads in the list.
If you face any R&H army you will see Marauders and or Ogryns, mostlikely a big ammount of these and disciples of any flavour because Renegades and Heretics can't use CP so no reason not to Spam your elite troops since they are actually usefull.
Okay, I was wondering about cultists as people seem to suggest apart from red corstair battalion, they are the bets troop unit for chaos, but I cannot really see the point in them as they lack the ability to actually kill anything in combat or with shooting and they die in easy droves with the rest running away. so how are they supposed to be used???
froper98 wrote: Okay, I was wondering about cultists as people seem to suggest apart from red corstair battalion, they are the bets troop unit for chaos, but I cannot really see the point in them as they lack the ability to actually kill anything in combat or with shooting and they die in easy droves with the rest running away. so how are they supposed to be used???
10 cultists cost 50 pts can sit on a objective just aswell and have more W. Also min cp tax.
30 cultists can be recycled and moved forwards.
Csm suffer from beeing Sm profile bodies and even with the reaper chaincannon beyond RC terrible at generating cp compared to the cheaper option.
froper98 wrote: Okay, I was wondering about cultists as people seem to suggest apart from red corstair battalion, they are the bets troop unit for chaos, but I cannot really see the point in them as they lack the ability to actually kill anything in combat or with shooting and they die in easy droves with the rest running away. so how are they supposed to be used???
They take up more space, which if your opponent has a nasty deep strike unit can buy you a turn. They were a lot better when they cost 4pts, it has to be said, but they’re still 15pts cheaper than a minimum Heretac squad.
froper98 wrote: Okay, I was wondering about cultists as people seem to suggest apart from red corstair battalion, they are the bets troop unit for chaos, but I cannot really see the point in them as they lack the ability to actually kill anything in combat or with shooting and they die in easy droves with the rest running away. so how are they supposed to be used???
They take up more space, which if your opponent has a nasty deep strike unit can buy you a turn. They were a lot better when they cost 4pts, it has to be said, but they’re still 15pts cheaper than a minimum Heretac squad.
Honestly atm the min CSM squad is always nearly carrying a Reaper chaincannon to get it'spts back somewhat and as deterrence.
Stepping into heresy after being a long time IG player. I am really struggling with getting a list i like together. Have not play tested this, working on getting everything painted before it sees the tabletop.
My goal is to go for a minimalist model count army with some real smashy characters and big threats. Trying to stay away from dedicated gunline and have more versatility in the army. I want to stay BL for a consistent paint scheme through the whole army.
2k
10 CP after spending 4
Battalion
BL
CL with jumpack - WL, bolt pistol, chainsword, ghorisvexs teeth, flames of spite. MoS Sorcerer with jumppack-Death hex, warptime, MoT
So, I've always been a fan of armor, so I decided to look over some of the FW options a little harder.
I must say I don't hate the Sicaran Venator with lascannons. But with a 3+, no applicable stratagems, and 14 wounds, is it viable for all the damage it could put out?
The other one I noticed is the Spartan Assault Tank. That's a lot of potential lascannon shots, and that thing can deliver an awful lot of chaincannons fairly safely. I'm sorely tempted.
ph34r wrote: Spartan full of Havocs would be pretty hilarious.
Isn't it something ridiculous like 500 points?
477 if you take the 2 quad lascannons (!) and heavy bolters. The fat bastard has 20 wounds, can pop smoke, has Steel Behemoth, and can hold 25(!) dudes.
You can have, at most, 14 chain cannons inside the spartan...So that's 112 (134 with EC) shots, deleting everything within 24+3+6 inches around the tank.
necrotekkie wrote: You can have, at most, 14 chain cannons inside the spartan...So that's 112 (134 with EC) shots, deleting everything within 24+3+6 inches around the tank.
necrotekkie wrote: You can have, at most, 14 chain cannons inside the spartan...So that's 112 (134 with EC) shots, deleting everything within 24+3+6 inches around the tank.
Sounds pretty tasty.
GUNSHIP MODE.
Also that is how much price for dakka?
About 900pts. :-p That's a terrible competitive investment... but super fun!
I'm thinking of running some Possessed in my World Eater/DG army, and I'm wondering how best this can be done. I do plan to use my Greater Possessed, but beyond that, I'm not sure what I am going to do with them. I am thinking of giving them the Nurgle and Death Guard marks, but would the WE and Khorne marks be better (technically I could run two units if points allowed for it)? I read on 1d4chan that DE Possessed are also significantly helped by a Herald of Nurgle?
ArcaneHorror wrote: I'm thinking of running some Possessed in my World Eater/DG army, and I'm wondering how best this can be done. I do plan to use my Greater Possessed, but beyond that, I'm not sure what I am going to do with them. I am thinking of giving them the Nurgle and Death Guard marks, but would the WE and Khorne marks be better (technically I could run two units if points allowed for it)? I read on 1d4chan that DE Possessed are also significantly helped by a Herald of Nurgle?
Best bet is probably a large unit of Nurgle-marked Alpha Legion Possessed. Buff with Benediction of Darkness, Miasma of Pestilence, and then Warptime them into enemies.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I'm thinking of running some Possessed in my World Eater/DG army, and I'm wondering how best this can be done. I do plan to use my Greater Possessed, but beyond that, I'm not sure what I am going to do with them. I am thinking of giving them the Nurgle and Death Guard marks, but would the WE and Khorne marks be better (technically I could run two units if points allowed for it)? I read on 1d4chan that DE Possessed are also significantly helped by a Herald of Nurgle?
If you run Possessed as Death Guard then the Greater Possessed won’t buff them since DG can’t take Greater Possessed and you’ll be committed to 2 detachments. I’ve run blobs of 20 as Nurgle with Nurgle Daemon Prince support and it’s not great in all honesty. On foot their too slow and if you make them a Death Star with -3 to hit and 4++ people just ignore them and score the objectives. Nurgle does buff them well but so does Slaanesh. Either way you’ll end up investing too many points in them. Better to just throw 7-8 in a Rhino with a Master of Possession and Greater Possessed backed up by other melee threats like Berserkers or Daemon engines. With a MoP they’re not bad as his powers buff them a bit and the stratagem for Daemonkin gives you +1S & +1A.
Edit. To the guy who posted above me, this is exactly what I tried and it doesn’t work well. It’s around 700 points for one unit that can be tar pitted and ignored. Warptime only works on one unit and causes problems leaving the support elements behind to get picked off by deep strikers. I’d strongly advise against going death star with them.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I'm thinking of running some Possessed in my World Eater/DG army, and I'm wondering how best this can be done. I do plan to use my Greater Possessed, but beyond that, I'm not sure what I am going to do with them. I am thinking of giving them the Nurgle and Death Guard marks, but would the WE and Khorne marks be better (technically I could run two units if points allowed for it)? I read on 1d4chan that DE Possessed are also significantly helped by a Herald of Nurgle?
If you run Possessed as Death Guard then the Greater Possessed won’t buff them since DG can’t take Greater Possessed and you’ll be committed to 2 detachments. I’ve run blobs of 20 as Nurgle with Nurgle Daemon Prince support and it’s not great in all honesty. On foot their too slow and if you make them a Death Star with -3 to hit and 4++ people just ignore them and score the objectives. Nurgle does buff them well but so does Slaanesh. Either way you’ll end up investing too many points in them. Better to just throw 7-8 in a Rhino with a Master of Possession and Greater Possessed backed up by other melee threats like Berserkers or Daemon engines. With a MoP they’re not bad as his powers buff them a bit and the stratagem for Daemonkin gives you +1S & +1A.
Edit. To the guy who posted above me, this is exactly what I tried and it doesn’t work well. It’s around 700 points for one unit that can be tar pitted and ignored. Warptime only works on one unit and causes problems leaving the support elements behind to get picked off by deep strikers. I’d strongly advise against going death star with them.
I don't think it's a good build, but it's the best way to run Possessed.
Best way imo is 10 in the specialist detachment with MoP and DA for company. They make a decent target for BD and will do work with the +1A/S stratagem. If they get killed your MoP and DA can buff the rest of your army instead.
World Eaters Possessed:
- can benefit from a Greater Possessed, Dark Apostle, Exalted Champion
- if you take a Daemons detachment, can forget about an Icon of Wrath
- guaranteed 2-4A on the charge, 3-5 if you use Daemonkin strat
- can spend 3CP to fight twice
Death Guard Possessed:
- can benefit from psychic powers (potentially including Warptime, if you take a Sorcerer on Palanguin and you can persuade everyone to follow a certain reading of RAW, otherwise a Purge detachment is amazing anyway), Blightbringer, Tallyman
- can benefit from Gnarlmaw for 1+ save if you lose T1, which also enables T1 advance x 2 via Warptime then charge
- Epidemius synergy (make that T1 charge with Purge Oblits on gunner detail and you can be pretty sure of getting a bunch of charges on him)
- stacking Locus of Virulence with any or all of VotLW, Virulent Blessing, and Blades of Putrefaction significantly upgrades their damage output
Hobby tip if you like both: build 25 Possessed. 15 with gribbly arms lacking pauldrons (Tyranid talons are a good call). Paint them all with white armour. Of the ten with pauldrons, paint five with them blue with WE/khornate symbols and five with them green with DG/nurglitch symbols. Of the others, paint the gribbly arms black and insecty. Splatter all of them with gore. You can now field a max squad of WE or DG Possessed who hulked out during the Horus Rebellion and didn’t repaint their original Legion colours.
Possessed can be buffed to almost infinitely high levels. Use BL possessed, dont give them a mark. Now use the Chosen of the Pantheon stratagem to give them all 4 marks of chaos. Now go with three psykers of slaanesh, tzeentch and nurgle. Use up to three dark apostles to prayer them with Benediction of Darkness for -1 to get hit, and Soultearer portent for +1 to wound, and Infernal Power to re-roll 1s to hit and wound. The three psykers cast Weaver of Fates for +1 inv, Miasma of Pestilence -1 to get hit, Delightful Agonies for a 5+ FNP. A MoP can cast Cursed Earth on them, for another +1 inv. VOTLW gives them another +1 to wound. Use Prescience for +1 to hit.
Now you have a unit which is -2 to hit, has a 3+ inv, 5+ FNP, gets +1 to hit, and gets +2 to wound. And can re-roll 1s to hit and wound. It can fight twice with the khorne fight again stratagem. A greater possessed will give them S+1. A herald of tzeentch, herald of slaanesh, herald of nurgle give them another S+1 for each herald, up to +3.
Just to add, the new Slanaash named daemon prince which is also a combined herald has 3 slanaash auras it can confer onto slanaash possessed and it hits like a truck. (It has even more attacks than the LD).
Slanaash possessed will be getting +1 str, rerolls 1 to hit and advance and charge from the 3 auras that named DP gives. And the guy is on foot, so he really syncs up really well with possessed and greater possessed.
The +1 str auras stack with the one provided by greater possessed too.
I do think there is probably a case to be made for a fun, if not wholly powerful, combo there. Plus you can model daemonette possessed and tick off everyone who h8s the idea of female space marines XD
p5freak wrote: Possessed can be buffed to almost infinitely high levels. Use BL possessed, dont give them a mark. Now use the Chosen of the Pantheon stratagem to give them all 4 marks of chaos. Now go with three psykers of slaanesh, tzeentch and nurgle. Use up to three dark apostles to prayer them with Benediction of Darkness for -1 to get hit, and Soultearer portent for +1 to wound, and Infernal Power to re-roll 1s to hit and wound. The three psykers cast Weaver of Fates for +1 inv, Miasma of Pestilence -1 to get hit, Delightful Agonies for a 5+ FNP. A MoP can cast Cursed Earth on them, for another +1 inv. VOTLW gives them another +1 to wound. Use Prescience for +1 to hit.
Now you have a unit which is -2 to hit, has a 3+ inv, 5+ FNP, gets +1 to hit, and gets +2 to wound. And can re-roll 1s to hit and wound. It can fight twice with the khorne fight again stratagem. A greater possessed will give them S+1. A herald of tzeentch, herald of slaanesh, herald of nurgle give them another S+1 for each herald, up to +3.
I dont recommend doing all of the above, though
and you casually just spen't 4 HQ slots on BL, so about 2 detachments not to mention points and stratagems, i mean i agree the skys' the limit for possesed but the price is also equal as high.
and you casually just spen't 4 HQ slots on BL, so about 2 detachments not to mention points and stratagems, i mean i agree the skys' the limit for possesed but the price is also equal as high.
Thats why you have to cherry pick from all the possibilities. Not all HQ have to be BL. The three slaanesh, nurgle and tzeentch psykers can be from any legion. Their psychic powers work on any HERETIC ASTARTES which has their mark. The MoP and DA have to be from BL, because their buffs only work on units from the same legion.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Just to add, the new Slanaash named daemon prince which is also a combined herald has 3 slanaash auras it can confer onto slanaash possessed and it hits like a truck. (It has even more attacks than the LD).
Slanaash possessed will be getting +1 str, rerolls 1 to hit and advance and charge from the 3 auras that named DP gives. And the guy is on foot, so he really syncs up really well with possessed and greater possessed.
The +1 str auras stack with the one provided by greater possessed too.
The Epitome - two Heralds with a mirror - looks great, too. M12, 8W, Cavalry, near immunity to MW, buffed DTW x 2 - that’s a brilliant escort for Possessed and/or Daemon engines that want to advance & charge against a list rich in psykers & snipers. Definitely making them a high priority. (If only they’d sort out Delightful Agonies.)
I was going to use the epitome with fiends. I was thinking of using a combination of fiends locking people into combat and morale immune cultists to escort heavy hitting characters up the board.
What's the thoughts on venom crawlers?? I think they are quite a decent little unit and want to include a couple in my black legion force alongside a lord discordant. The plan is to have multiple angles of attack in my 2k list.
Want Abby leading a blob of 30 cultists with a couple of small CSM units with chaimcannons and combi bolter champions and maybe even have the oblits tagging along.
At the rear will sit a squad of havoc's with lascannons plinking away at tough targets, maybe 2 squads!
In deepstrike will be 10 terminators all armed with combi bolters and chainaxes.
Then finally a distraction force of 2 X venom crawlers with a lord discordant to just rush the enemy and scare them.
Until castellan knights are nerfed, pretty much all other vehicles, except certain indirect fire models, are unusable and you have to build skew lists just to compete.
Rogerio134134 wrote: What's the thoughts on venom crawlers?? I think they are quite a decent little unit and want to include a couple in my black legion force alongside a lord discordant. The plan is to have multiple angles of attack in my 2k list.
Want Abby leading a blob of 30 cultists with a couple of small CSM units with chaimcannons and combi bolter champions and maybe even have the oblits tagging along.
At the rear will sit a squad of havoc's with lascannons plinking away at tough targets, maybe 2 squads!
In deepstrike will be 10 terminators all armed with combi bolters and chainaxes.
Then finally a distraction force of 2 X venom crawlers with a lord discordant to just rush the enemy and scare them.
Venomcrawlers as a distraction force... let's look at them for a second.
Movement 10, WS 4, 10 wounds, 6 attacks, T 7, 3+ save, 2 D3 shots and S and Movement degrade at 4 wounds.
I'm not sure there's enough there to qualify as scary. The Lord Dischordant, sure, but a Venomcrawler isn't particularly threatening on it's own.
Rogerio134134 wrote: What's the thoughts on venom crawlers?? I think they are quite a decent little unit and want to include a couple in my black legion force alongside a lord discordant. The plan is to have multiple angles of attack in my 2k list.
Want Abby leading a blob of 30 cultists with a couple of small CSM units with chaimcannons and combi bolter champions and maybe even have the oblits tagging along.
At the rear will sit a squad of havoc's with lascannons plinking away at tough targets, maybe 2 squads!
In deepstrike will be 10 terminators all armed with combi bolters and chainaxes.
Then finally a distraction force of 2 X venom crawlers with a lord discordant to just rush the enemy and scare them.
Venomcrawlers as a distraction force... let's look at them for a second.
Movement 10, WS 4, 10 wounds, 6 attacks, T 7, 3+ save, 2 D3 shots and S and Movement degrade at 4 wounds.
I'm not sure there's enough there to qualify as scary. The Lord Dischordant, sure, but a Venomcrawler isn't particularly threatening on it's own.
2 of them with the lord all going fists together will surely get some attention, basically just want them to hopefully take some of the fire for the other units, either that or just take multiple lord ds?
So guys I'm going to build a list around a couple of fw models, kytan and blood slaughterer. Will have a LD with them.
I dont know much about the deamons units, any advice for khorne buffs, tactics? From what I can see these two models dont really need the strength buff, but anything to help mitigate damage or get them into combat faster? (I know the basics, warptime, soulforge strat. Etc.)
drakerocket wrote: So lots of theory for mass daemon engine lists but how have they been working for people?
Pretty well, just did a small tournament today. Not very competitive because it was random doubles (so I played Black Legion together with Sisters of Battle one game ). Especially the Lord Discordant is extremely powerful if played correctly. Mine had the Indomitable Warlord Trait together with the Sightless Helm. Was hilarious in a duel with a twin Talon DP because it only barely managed to scratch my paint. Really, the thing is dead 'ard and an absolute blender in melee. Especially if you buff it with Daemonforge. Baleflamer is also a surprisingly nasty weapon with an actually pretty good range. It also works very well along Venomcrawlers which can keep up with it (gotta remember to apply the aura buff to the Crawler though, I constantly forget about that). I mostly kept my Forgefiend close to my Master of Possession which worked... decently well. Still very swingy performance, one turn it took off 8 wounds of a Knight with a single salvo, next turn it hardly scratches the paint of a bunch of Castelans.
All in all I'm especially impressed with the Lord Discordant but it will need list tailoring. I only had a Master of Possession for psychic powers (I switched out Smite for Warptime twice with Chaos Familiar to get it across the board, worked very nicely) so I couldn't get stuff like Delightful Agonies on the Lord Discordant and in 2k games you will need a Knight or Daemon Primarch to play Distraction Carnifex for it. Also, the MoP really can't keep up with the Discordant and Venomcrawlers, it's much more suited for buffing up Possessed blobs and babysitting Forgefiends. Also, you'll want at least a batallion to run it in because it eats CP like it eats vehicles in melee while Daemonforge'd.
All in all, if I had to make a Daemon Engine list that isn't just 3x Lord Discordant I'd get 1x Lord Discordant (Mark of Slaanesh probably for Delightful Agonies), 3x Venomcrawler, a Castellan or Crusader for fire support and Distraction Carnifex duty, one or two Jump Pack Psykers to cast buffs on the Engines and fill out troop slots with CSM squads with Bolter/ Combibolter/ Chaincannon. If there's any points left after that you can fill it out with whatever toys strike your fancy, I'd probably go for a bunch of Havocs with Chaincannons for additional anti-horde.
Thanks for all the advice. I intend to most likely DS them (Can a Blightbringer be deep struck?) along with my Bloodletters to force my opponent to have to choose between being shot in the front or stabbed from behind. At the moment, I intend to have my Bloodletter force be a battalion of three units of ten, with the HQ's being two Bloodmasters and Skulltaker.
Hobby tip if you like both: build 25 Possessed. 15 with gribbly arms lacking pauldrons (Tyranid talons are a good call). Paint them all with white armour. Of the ten with pauldrons, paint five with them blue with WE/khornate symbols and five with them green with DG/nurglitch symbols. Of the others, paint the gribbly arms black and insecty. Splatter all of them with gore. You can now field a max squad of WE or DG Possessed who hulked out during the Horus Rebellion and didn’t repaint their original Legion colours.
Wow, that's an interesting idea, a may do that with a few of them. For most my WE Possessed, I was thinking of having them being bright red or night black, with possibly a mixture of the two, and maybe some brass thrown in. For my DG Possessed, they'll probably be painted a sickly green (I love the picture in the DG codex), though some also might be painted sickly yellow and/or dripping black to represent bile and black diarrhea respectively. I just love the concept of DG Possessed. Most Plague Marines are already horrific, utterly inhuman and diseased monsters in and of themselves. To have them be possessed by a horrific and diseased daemon has the potential for some truly sick (in both meanings of the word) designs.
Another question that I have is concerning the Aspiring Champion model, the one with the plasma gun, axe and knife. I love the model design as it syncs well with the new CSM designs, but I'm confused as to how it's placed into a larger CSM army. The rules state that each CSM unit has one Aspiring Champion which is armed with one chainaxe, but the AS stand-alone model has a power axe. As I can't find any special rules for this model (I'm guessing that the rules concerning Vrosh Tattersoul are now obsolete), I don't exactly know how this guy could be placed into a larger CSM force.
Maulerfiend is better in melee and a bit better still even if you include the VCs guns. Obviously the VC has better projection and can actually do something on turn 1. They are both very even so pick Mauler for melee focus or VC if you need a bit of extra shooting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anyone tried out the MoP to summon after moving? I am wondering if it could be an option for the new Keeper of Secrets, as if you deploy her/him/it on the board T1 it's toast.
saint_red wrote: Maulerfiend is better in melee and a bit better still even if you include the VCs guns. Obviously the VC has better projection and can actually do something on turn 1. They are both very even so pick Mauler for melee focus or VC if you need a bit of extra shooting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anyone tried out the MoP to summon after moving? I am wondering if it could be an option for the new Keeper of Secrets, as if you deploy her/him/it on the board T1 it's toast.
Thx!! i love maulerfiend but the price for 3 of them is expensive but i think i can invest them. but i hope venomcrawler have a separate box, ithink it will cheaper than maulerfiend.
Has anyone tried out the MoP to summon after moving? I am wondering if it could be an option for the new Keeper of Secrets, as if you deploy her/him/it on the board T1 it's toast.
Depends on the PL you need to roll to summon the good thing.
Also you need to be slaanesh and or unaligned MoP wise.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Another question that I have is concerning the Aspiring Champion model, the one with the plasma gun, axe and knife. I love the model design as it syncs well with the new CSM designs, but I'm confused as to how it's placed into a larger CSM army. The rules state that each CSM unit has one Aspiring Champion which is armed with one chainaxe, but the AS stand-alone model has a power axe. As I can't find any special rules for this model (I'm guessing that the rules concerning Vrosh Tattersoul are now obsolete), I don't exactly know how this guy could be placed into a larger CSM force.
I don't think he's really intended to be a unit champion he's more of a HQ but you can use him for anything you like. I actually kitbashed him into a warpsmith but he'd make a really good base for an exalted champion especially if you were planning to give him the axe of blind fury. Or swap the axe out for a thunder hammer?
You could even keep the axe and run him as the new master of executions. I can't see anyone having an issue with that, you'd just need to fit a different back pack so he's not carrying the melta...
ArcaneHorror wrote: Another question that I have is concerning the Aspiring Champion model, the one with the plasma gun, axe and knife. I love the model design as it syncs well with the new CSM designs, but I'm confused as to how it's placed into a larger CSM army. The rules state that each CSM unit has one Aspiring Champion which is armed with one chainaxe, but the AS stand-alone model has a power axe. As I can't find any special rules for this model (I'm guessing that the rules concerning Vrosh Tattersoul are now obsolete), I don't exactly know how this guy could be placed into a larger CSM force.
I don't think he's really intended to be a unit champion he's more of a HQ but you can use him for anything you like. I actually kitbashed him into a warpsmith but he'd make a really good base for an exalted champion especially if you were planning to give him the axe of blind fury. Or swap the axe out for a thunder hammer?
You could even keep the axe and run him as the new master of executions. I can't see anyone having an issue with that, you'd just need to fit a different back pack so he's not carrying the melta...
I’m not quite clear who we’re talking about, here?
There’s a new AC model in Shadowspear with a Plasma pistol and Chainaxe. A HeretacAC may take two items from the Champion Equipment list, which includes both of these.
There’s many AC options in the new Heretac set, all of which are covered under Champion Equipment, including the plasma pistol and power axe on the studio unit in the photos.
There’s a stand-alone ‘Apiring Champion’, about five years old, with a power axe, bolt pistol, and combi-melta. This model built as-is cannot be used WYSIWYG in 40k (or even Kill Team, for which it was specifically promoted) as an AC. The only ways to make good of it are:
- say the holstered pistol is out of ammo and never use it (be honest, half the time we forget to point-blank when it’s even an option)
- use it as a Chosen that’s swapped their bolter for a combi-weapon and gained a melee weapon (bit expensive);
- just pool the parts into your bits box to build models with useful, legal loadouts (CM isn’t terrible on a midfield Lord who doesn’t want to overheat his Plasma in a meta full of hit modifiers. Especially if he’s on a bike. Oh, hello, RC Relic)
I think we are talking about exalted champion not aspiring.. That EC model for Red Corsairs can have the Maelstorm's Bite relic weapon, which is.. atleast fluffy.
I'm more daemon player but started looking more into daemon engines now and daemonkin (to me it's still fluffy to mix them up but not with regular CSM) as well.
Yesterday having some practice game I started to think, is there any way (CP, spell, ability) to make vehicles explosion more possible? For example instead of it exploding on 6+ making it explode on 4+ for CP?
Sorry if someone has already asked for this and I'm bringing it up again.
I'm not happy with the clarification to butcher's nails at all. It wasn't a great legion trait to begin with and now they completely removed all synergy with berzerkers and Kharn. :(
115 points for Oblits
Renegades are locked to specific gods.
For those that have been playing their oblits at 115? Do you still feel like they're worth the investment?
Where did you find that renegades are locked to specific gods? I can't find the errata for vigilus ablaze, which I imagine would be the right one.
In the vigilus ablaze FAQ. For me, it's the first one amongst 40kFAQs on the Warhammer community website.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The way I understand the CSMFAQ, legion traits now apply to "Characters", so Lord Discordants benefit from them.
With a built in +1 to-hit, I'm really tempted by a flawless host supreme command.
115 points for Oblits
Renegades are locked to specific gods.
For those that have been playing their oblits at 115? Do you still feel like they're worth the investment?
Where did you find that renegades are locked to specific gods? I can't find the errata for vigilus ablaze, which I imagine would be the right one.
In the vigilus ablaze FAQ. For me, it's the first one amongst 40kFAQs on the Warhammer community website.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The way I understand the CSMFAQ, legion traits now apply to "Characters", so Lord Discordants benefit from them.
With a built in +1 to-hit, I'm really tempted by a flawless host supreme command.
Anyone who didn't know oblits were a typo and were going to be 115 was pretty dumb. That being said it's obvious the 115 points was written prior to CA 2018 and was waaaaayyyy overpriced.
And i'm still not seeing anywhere about locking renegades chapters into one god. I just triple checked. There isn't even a Vigilus ablaze FAQ on the FAQ site, the first one in the list is shadowspear. The Chaos FAQ only locks world eaters and Emperors Children into a specific god.
Lastly, yeah i believe Lord Discordants now get legion traits. My Corsairs LD is happy to be able to advance and charge...too bad demon engines still don't get it. I guess we can't all be Eldar/IG and asking for some rules consistency is too much.
115 points for Oblits
Renegades are locked to specific gods.
For those that have been playing their oblits at 115? Do you still feel like they're worth the investment?
Where did you find that renegades are locked to specific gods? I can't find the errata for vigilus ablaze, which I imagine would be the right one.
In the vigilus ablaze FAQ. For me, it's the first one amongst 40kFAQs on the Warhammer community website.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The way I understand the CSMFAQ, legion traits now apply to "Characters", so Lord Discordants benefit from them.
With a built in +1 to-hit, I'm really tempted by a flawless host supreme command.
yeah legion traits now apply to Lord Discordants. that's a nice change
Lord Discordant’s getting legion traits is very nice. I’m already running a red Corsair battalion with triple lord D’s and this a very nice buff for that list. Also alpha legion Lord D’s are extremely good, now there’s a serious consideration for what legion you go for.
now if only juggerlord's hadn't been squated. I know there's the whole 'index flow chart' to do cheeky things, but most tournaments do not allow index anymore now that every army has a codex (except SOB)
Sucks too because i love the juggerlord model i kitbashed. It fits my fluffy khorne army. I honestly don't blame people who don't want to allow index anymore, those should be retired. But GW also should have included that iconic unit in the codex.
115 points for Oblits
Renegades are locked to specific gods.
For those that have been playing their oblits at 115? Do you still feel like they're worth the investment?
Where did you find that renegades are locked to specific gods? I can't find the errata for vigilus ablaze, which I imagine would be the right one.
In the vigilus ablaze FAQ. For me, it's the first one amongst 40kFAQs on the Warhammer community website.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The way I understand the CSMFAQ, legion traits now apply to "Characters", so Lord Discordants benefit from them.
With a built in +1 to-hit, I'm really tempted by a flawless host supreme command.
Anyone who didn't know oblits were a typo and were going to be 115 was pretty dumb. That being said it's obvious the 115 points was written prior to CA 2018 and was waaaaayyyy overpriced.
And i'm still not seeing anywhere about locking renegades chapters into one god. I just triple checked. There isn't even a Vigilus ablaze FAQ on the FAQ site, the first one in the list is shadowspear. The Chaos FAQ only locks world eaters and Emperors Children into a specific god.
Lastly, yeah i believe Lord Discordants now get legion traits. My Corsairs LD is happy to be able to advance and charge...too bad demon engines still don't get it. I guess we can't all be Eldar/IG and asking for some rules consistency is too much.
115 points for Oblits
Renegades are locked to specific gods.
For those that have been playing their oblits at 115? Do you still feel like they're worth the investment?
Where did you find that renegades are locked to specific gods? I can't find the errata for vigilus ablaze, which I imagine would be the right one.
In the vigilus ablaze FAQ. For me, it's the first one amongst 40kFAQs on the Warhammer community website.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The way I understand the CSMFAQ, legion traits now apply to "Characters", so Lord Discordants benefit from them.
With a built in +1 to-hit, I'm really tempted by a flawless host supreme command.
Anyone who didn't know oblits were a typo and were going to be 115 was pretty dumb. That being said it's obvious the 115 points was written prior to CA 2018 and was waaaaayyyy overpriced.
And i'm still not seeing anywhere about locking renegades chapters into one god. I just triple checked. There isn't even a Vigilus ablaze FAQ on the FAQ site, the first one in the list is shadowspear. The Chaos FAQ only locks world eaters and Emperors Children into a specific god.
Lastly, yeah i believe Lord Discordants now get legion traits. My Corsairs LD is happy to be able to advance and charge...too bad demon engines still don't get it. I guess we can't all be Eldar/IG and asking for some rules consistency is too much.
Thank you. For some reason it's not listed on the FAQ page, unless you switch to a language other than english, then it's there.
Removed - BrookM
In their own commentary they've stated that the legion/renegade traits "allow you to play your own chapter, just pick whichever trait feels fit's your custom chapter closest" this has always been the case. No other army, not a single one, outside chaos has restrictions put on which chapter/faction/legion/ect trait you can pick. Once again chaos getting the shaft. Seriously what harm would there be in letting people play whichever trait they want in an army for their own chapter? Every single army in the game is built that way so that you can homebrew your own fluff and paint your dudes however you see fit, then just pick the trait which best fits your fluff as long as you follow the rules of the trait.
“no part of (tactical reserves) applies to units that are added to your army during the battle (such as those that require reinforcement points to be added); these units cannot be set up anywhere (on the battlefield or otherwise) during deployment because they do not exist until the point where the rule that ‘creates’ them is used, and that point is always after deployment has finished.”
Right, well, this seems to resolve some confusion I had. I think we need to have another look at Summoning, since it now enables us to create units in no man’s land on the first turn.
Characters embedded near the front of our lines can effectively drop units just before the halfway line (in most deployment maps).
For Pink Horrors, that’s the difference in not having to Advance to get within hadouken range of a cautiously deployed enemy, and a guarantee of shooting at full unit strength. .
A Bloodmaster can be dropped in on the first turn, ready to Summon a Skull Altar right in the enemy’s face on the second turn, right as a load of Warp Talons come in to play.
A Master of Possession can crank this up by running up the table and casting Incursion. If he starts the game in a Transport and Advances, that’s a minimum of 22” Summoning range - easily enough to drop something as close to the enemy as possible.
That could be a flock of Flamers, blasting away at a melee horde and daring them to charge.
It could be a slow unit; Skull Throne, Horticulous, Plaguebearers, or Beasts of Nurgle, overcoming their poor movement. On that note, if you’re a Word Bearer or near a Gnarlmaw, a GUO isn’t impossible. And speaking of Gnarlmaws, Horticulous could then drop one on the same turn, right in the enemy’s face. If you’ve also Warptimed a Defiler up there, that could get messy.
Might be worth dropping an Enrapturess up close to some armies, especially if you’ve got units in place to prevent her getting blasted.
I suppose these shenanigans would ideally have a Chaos Daemons detachment in play, so as to have various loci and Stratagems available.
New Chaos Space Marine codex errata. Page 1, bottom right column.
Well gak.
Probably final nail in the Oblits as is.
Oblits are just fine at 115 points. It makes their weapons profile balanced as compared to havocs and combi-plasma terminators, and their survivability per point. And then they gain huge benefits from strat and buff synergy. They could be 130pts and still be worth using.
New Chaos Space Marine codex errata. Page 1, bottom right column.
Well gak.
Probably final nail in the Oblits as is.
Oblits are just fine at 115 points. It makes their weapons profile balanced as compared to havocs and combi-plasma terminators, and their survivability per point. And then they gain huge benefits from strat and buff synergy. They could be 130pts and still be worth using.
There worth the single unit now since after buffs and EC they are still extremely efficient. This made it less desirable to spam 3 units, which I would argue is better for the game over all.
Wow legion traits applying to lord discordants is huge. AL versions become much more survivable. Red corsairs can yolo and advance and charge (even better in a soulforged detachment).
Oblits at 115 are just fine, i have been able to find good uses for them with the mark of nurgle and the nurgle tree (0+ save? Thanks, i will take that). My biggest issue with them is the venom crawler, for 15 pts more they are much more tactically viable than oblits.
... I say possessed. Decent unit these days, and very "Word Bearers".
