Sooo... does this mean a Red Corsairs CSM blob that I bring back to the table with the 'More where they came from' strat can no longer advance and charge because it loses the legion trait?
Q: If a unit is added to my Battle-forged army during the battle,
is it ever considered to be part of a Detachment?
A: No, units that are added to your army during the battle
are never part of any Detachment (this means they will
never benefit from any Detachment abilities).
Concerning units that are removed and then set up again elsewhere: Note that points 5-8 do not apply to any unit set up via the[...] More Where They
Came From (see Imperium Nihilus: Vigilus Ablaze), [...]. These Stratagems represent new units joining the fight, rather than the existing units
being repositioned on the battlefield.
Concerns tactical restraint but addresses distinctions between reinforcements and added units: “no part of (tactical reserves) applies to units that are added to your army during the battle (such as those that require reinforcement points to be added); these units cannot be set up anywhere (on the battlefield or otherwise) during deployment because they do not exist until the point where the rule that ‘creates’ them is used, and that point is always after deployment has finished.”
115 points for Oblits
Renegades are locked to specific gods.
For those that have been playing their oblits at 115? Do you still feel like they're worth the investment?
Where did you find that renegades are locked to specific gods? I can't find the errata for vigilus ablaze, which I imagine would be the right one.
In the vigilus ablaze FAQ. For me, it's the first one amongst 40kFAQs on the Warhammer community website.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The way I understand the CSMFAQ, legion traits now apply to "Characters", so Lord Discordants benefit from them.
With a built in +1 to-hit, I'm really tempted by a flawless host supreme command.
Anyone who didn't know oblits were a typo and were going to be 115 was pretty dumb. That being said it's obvious the 115 points was written prior to CA 2018 and was waaaaayyyy overpriced.
And i'm still not seeing anywhere about locking renegades chapters into one god. I just triple checked. There isn't even a Vigilus ablaze FAQ on the FAQ site, the first one in the list is shadowspear. The Chaos FAQ only locks world eaters and Emperors Children into a specific god.
Lastly, yeah i believe Lord Discordants now get legion traits. My Corsairs LD is happy to be able to advance and charge...too bad demon engines still don't get it. I guess we can't all be Eldar/IG and asking for some rules consistency is too much.
Thank you. For some reason it's not listed on the FAQ page, unless you switch to a language other than english, then it's there.
Removed - BrookM
In their own commentary they've stated that the legion/renegade traits "allow you to play your own chapter, just pick whichever trait feels fit's your custom chapter closest" this has always been the case. No other army, not a single one, outside chaos has restrictions put on which chapter/faction/legion/ect trait you can pick. Once again chaos getting the shaft. Seriously what harm would there be in letting people play whichever trait they want in an army for their own chapter? Every single army in the game is built that way so that you can homebrew your own fluff and paint your dudes however you see fit, then just pick the trait which best fits your fluff as long as you follow the rules of the trait.
You can paint your dudes however you want. You aren't getting shafted. You do, however, have play the rules as GW writes them and not benefit from things they didn't intend. The flawless host has been in the fluff for a while now. They have been a Slaanesh dedicated warband the entire time. You can paint your guys however you and and use them as Flawless host- they just have to be Slaanesh. Just like Emperor's Children have to be Slaanesh marked.
Nobody is getting shafted. To think you could just cherry pick units, strats, etc and use a god dedicated warbands rules is what is/was ridiculous.
This is a great move by GW. Keeps the game aligned with the fluff.
Snugiraffe wrote: Sooo... does this mean a Red Corsairs CSM blob that I bring back to the table with the 'More where they came from' strat can no longer advance and charge because it loses the legion trait?
Q: If a unit is added to my Battle-forged army during the battle,
is it ever considered to be part of a Detachment?
A: No, units that are added to your army during the battle
are never part of any Detachment (this means they will
never benefit from any Detachment abilities).
Concerning units that are removed and then set up again elsewhere: Note that points 5-8 do not apply to any unit set up via the[...] More Where They
Came From (see Imperium Nihilus: Vigilus Ablaze), [...]. These Stratagems represent new units joining the fight, rather than the existing units
being repositioned on the battlefield.
Concerns tactical restraint but addresses distinctions between reinforcements and added units: “no part of (tactical reserves) applies to units that are added to your army during the battle (such as those that require reinforcement points to be added); these units cannot be set up anywhere (on the battlefield or otherwise) during deployment because they do not exist until the point where the rule that ‘creates’ them is used, and that point is always after deployment has finished.”
Colour me confused...
Debatable certainly.
Whilst they "represent" new units. They aren't reinforcements, so wouldn't immediately assume that rules for reinforcements apply. You aren't adding a new unit to your army explicitly.
Ok so I'm a little behind on things (haven't done anything in 40k since a while before the first vigilus book), and I was just wondering if anything had been shaken up with regards to Raptors and Warp Talons (who were both garbage and unusable back then, unfortunately, as I like them as fluffy units).
The main issue being neither were able to reliably get into combat, and neither had enough killiness to really do much. I think plasma-raptors were the only vaguely useful option at the time?
But after Ablaze and todays' de-nerfing, there's been some changes it seems...
For a start, today (i think it was today) they removed the nerf that prevented FLY units from being able to move over other models, so they can now get to the back lines etc just as they used to which is nice.
Also in Ablaze I noticed a couple useful Warlord Traits -
Cult of the Damned - reroll charges within 6"
Raptorial - +2 to charge rolls
Either of these would seem to help out Talons especially, and removed the points tax of having to take a daemon detachment for the khorne locus (freeing up a bunch of points for other things). Means jumping your warlord in with the talons though, but I mean... you're chaos, if you're not biting people's faces off you're doing it wrong!
Not sure it's anywhere near enough to make Talons/Raptors usable, but thought I'd reopen the discussion. I read back a few pages and I hadn't seen anything much mentioned lately
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nightlord1987 wrote: Where is the updated Cultist datasheet (and legion trait nerf) for us with the old codex?
I thought this would make it into the FAQs.
Cultists were changed? Havent seen any referance to this anywhere. And the Legion Trait nerf? Only thing I saw is it now gives a trait to Lords Discordant, which would seem to be a buff? What else have I missed lol.
Snugiraffe wrote: Sooo... does this mean a Red Corsairs CSM blob that I bring back to the table with the 'More where they came from' strat can no longer advance and charge because it loses the legion trait?
Q: If a unit is added to my Battle-forged army during the battle,
is it ever considered to be part of a Detachment?
A: No, units that are added to your army during the battle
are never part of any Detachment (this means they will
never benefit from any Detachment abilities).
Concerning units that are removed and then set up again elsewhere: Note that points 5-8 do not apply to any unit set up via the[...] More Where They
Came From (see Imperium Nihilus: Vigilus Ablaze), [...]. These Stratagems represent new units joining the fight, rather than the existing units
being repositioned on the battlefield.
Concerns tactical restraint but addresses distinctions between reinforcements and added units: “no part of (tactical reserves) applies to units that are added to your army during the battle (such as those that require reinforcement points to be added); these units cannot be set up anywhere (on the battlefield or otherwise) during deployment because they do not exist until the point where the rule that ‘creates’ them is used, and that point is always after deployment has finished.”
Colour me confused...
Debatable certainly.
Whilst they "represent" new units. They aren't reinforcements, so wouldn't immediately assume that rules for reinforcements apply. You aren't adding a new unit to your army explicitly.
I was wondering the same thing. From C:CSM:
"If your army is Battle-forged, all Daemon Prince, Infantry, Bikers and Helbrute units in Chaos Space Marine Detachments gain a Legion Trait so long as every unit in that Detachment is from the same Legion."
The way I read it was, we have a rule about Legion traits that applies to very specifically to detachments. This rule does not apply to any unit that is not in a detachment.
Another funny one, for Despoilers of the Galaxy: "If your army is battle-forged, all Troops units in Chaos Space Marine Detachments gain this ability."
So it looks like we can now take Twin-Linked Lascannons on Hellforged Contemptors, and can also take big guns on both arms for them now. And can add a havoc launcher without replacing anything. Does this make this unit worthwhile?
Chaos Decimator with dual Butcher cannons is 140. Contemptor with dual Butcher cannons is 166. The decimator has 1 more attack, heals, and has the Daemon keyword. The Contemptor has an extra WS and BS, but they both degrade, and so does its movement. It can heal from melee kills and has a better invul in melee. And it can get Legion traits, meaning as alpha legion they are pretty nasty.
EDIT: Missed that the Contemptor went down in cost. It's 138, not 166.
New Chaos Space Marine codex errata. Page 1, bottom right column.
Well gak.
Probably final nail in the Oblits as is.
Oblits are just fine at 115 points. It makes their weapons profile balanced as compared to havocs and combi-plasma terminators, and their survivability per point. And then they gain huge benefits from strat and buff synergy. They could be 130pts and still be worth using.
If you play a legion that can mark slaanesh, yes. If you play anything other than slaanesh, they're massively overcosted. Which shows the balance issues when you determine point costs based on strategems, especially stratagems that are faction locked. If it was a general strategem any chaos player could use it might be a different story. Same issue with eh LD being great....but only if you play black legion, otherwise it's half as survivable.
Either of these would seem to help out Talons especially, and removed the points tax of having to take a daemon detachment for the khorne locus (freeing up a bunch of points for other things). Means jumping your warlord in with the talons though, but I mean... you're chaos, if you're not biting people's faces off you're doing it wrong!
Not sure it's anywhere near enough to make Talons/Raptors usable, but thought I'd reopen the discussion. I read back a few pages and I hadn't seen anything much mentioned lately
Cultists were changed? Havent seen any referance to this anywhere. And the Legion Trait nerf? Only thing I saw is it now gives a trait to Lords Discordant, which would seem to be a buff? What else have I missed lol.
Jumping in a Lord with Warp Talons will allow the WTs to take the edge of any overwatch fire for the Lord. There's some nice builds available now, especially the Black Legion chainlord.
Cultists now get the 'Mere Mortals' rule, stating they do not benefit from legion traits. Which is absolutely in line with the fluff. Sadly, you still get to pay 5 pts/model for them.
Legion traits for Lords Discordant is hilarious. I'm finding it hard to believe that that was intentional. But I can't think of any other reason to change the wording for whom legion traits apply to.
@techsoldaten: Nice catch with the ObSec It's like the recycled CSM are just a bunch of renegades who turned up to the fight by accident and don't have orders or battlefield intel. Like partycrashers or something. You just can't have a decent barbecue anywhere near the Maelstrom these days...
115 points for Oblits
Renegades are locked to specific gods.
For those that have been playing their oblits at 115? Do you still feel like they're worth the investment?
Where did you find that renegades are locked to specific gods? I can't find the errata for vigilus ablaze, which I imagine would be the right one.
In the vigilus ablaze FAQ. For me, it's the first one amongst 40kFAQs on the Warhammer community website.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The way I understand the CSMFAQ, legion traits now apply to "Characters", so Lord Discordants benefit from them.
With a built in +1 to-hit, I'm really tempted by a flawless host supreme command.
Anyone who didn't know oblits were a typo and were going to be 115 was pretty dumb. That being said it's obvious the 115 points was written prior to CA 2018 and was waaaaayyyy overpriced.
And i'm still not seeing anywhere about locking renegades chapters into one god. I just triple checked. There isn't even a Vigilus ablaze FAQ on the FAQ site, the first one in the list is shadowspear. The Chaos FAQ only locks world eaters and Emperors Children into a specific god.
Lastly, yeah i believe Lord Discordants now get legion traits. My Corsairs LD is happy to be able to advance and charge...too bad demon engines still don't get it. I guess we can't all be Eldar/IG and asking for some rules consistency is too much.
Thank you. For some reason it's not listed on the FAQ page, unless you switch to a language other than english, then it's there.
Removed - BrookM
In their own commentary they've stated that the legion/renegade traits "allow you to play your own chapter, just pick whichever trait feels fit's your custom chapter closest" this has always been the case. No other army, not a single one, outside chaos has restrictions put on which chapter/faction/legion/ect trait you can pick. Once again chaos getting the shaft. Seriously what harm would there be in letting people play whichever trait they want in an army for their own chapter? Every single army in the game is built that way so that you can homebrew your own fluff and paint your dudes however you see fit, then just pick the trait which best fits your fluff as long as you follow the rules of the trait.
You can paint your dudes however you want. You aren't getting shafted. You do, however, have play the rules as GW writes them and not benefit from things they didn't intend. The flawless host has been in the fluff for a while now. They have been a Slaanesh dedicated warband the entire time. You can paint your guys however you and and use them as Flawless host- they just have to be Slaanesh. Just like Emperor's Children have to be Slaanesh marked.
Nobody is getting shafted. To think you could just cherry pick units, strats, etc and use a god dedicated warbands rules is what is/was ridiculous.
This is a great move by GW. Keeps the game aligned with the fluff.
everything you said is incorrect. Either you didn't read, didn't understand, or didn't bother.
No one is advocating cherry picking unis, strats, ect. Nowhere did i say or even imply that you should be able to pick emperors children trait, brazen bull strategems, and relics from red corsairs. Simply that you should be able to use all of a legion/chapters rules exactly as written, without being locked in to that specific chapters lore, as GW themselves even stated you could. Or did you miss the part where GW has in every release stated that those chapters/factions/cults ect aren't meant to represent only those but to represent a style of play, so if you play your own chapter you can pick any of the current trait sets to represent them.
Tell me, are bad moon orks restricted to only shootey units? that's fluffy, they should be by your logic.
No it's not a great move, it kills personalized warbands/chapters/ect. You sound like one of those guys who thinks every army must be painted exactly how their pictured on the GW box art and throws a fit if a guy shows up with an army painted orange with his own chapter lore and uses the salamanders rules. "BUT THEY"RE NOT GREEN! THAT"S NOT FLUFF!!!" People like you wreck the hobby.
Nothing about not forcing a god choice is cherry picking or breaks the game in any way. So what, you can't play your own renegade legion? you can't play any legion other than those listed, not for rules reasons but because you're hung up on the name just like whatever unthinking fool at GW made this rule? To think that creating an arbitrary restriction that only applies to chaos armies with no purpose and that kills players ability to lore up their own chapter for their dudes is ridiculous. Or are you advocating they go change all the other armies to remove all ability to customize how you play? "oh can't use aberrents in pauper prince factions because in the story pauper princes don't have aberrents." and crap like that?
There's no valid reason i shouldn't be able to play with all the emperors children rules but paint my dudes gold and call them the Sphincter Surfers of Aguilon 12, using the EC rules to represent how they're so eager they always fight first. Nothing about that is doing anything that breaks rules or manipulates rules to get an advantage. And that's what you seem to be failing to seperate, you seem to be under the impression that not following these asinine fluff rules get's some advantage, it doesn't, it's mearly to help foster people to create their own attachment to their armies. But now GW is setting a precedent that they haven't done with literraly any other army, where they're writing rules to disallow creating your own lore. Again something they've not done with any other army in the game.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Where is the updated Cultist datasheet (and legion trait nerf) for us with the old codex?
I thought this would make it into the FAQs.
Cultists were changed? Havent seen any referance to this anywhere. And the Legion Trait nerf? Only thing I saw is it now gives a trait to Lords Discordant, which would seem to be a buff? What else have I missed lol.
Vigilus Ablaze and the updated CSM Codex have a rule that Cultists don't benefit from Legion Traits as well as lowering the max number of Cultists in a unit. Not sure why Nightlord thought they would make it into the FAQ, though.
New Chaos Space Marine codex errata. Page 1, bottom right column.
Well gak.
Probably final nail in the Oblits as is.
Oblits are just fine at 115 points. It makes their weapons profile balanced as compared to havocs and combi-plasma terminators, and their survivability per point. And then they gain huge benefits from strat and buff synergy. They could be 130pts and still be worth using.
If you play a legion that can mark slaanesh, yes. If you play anything other than slaanesh, they're massively overcosted. Which shows the balance issues when you determine point costs based on strategems, especially stratagems that are faction locked. If it was a general strategem any chaos player could use it might be a different story. Same issue with eh LD being great....but only if you play black legion, otherwise it's half as survivable.
No. Even without strats being factored in, they are almost exactly internally balanced against other similar unit options at 115pts. I say they would be worthwhile at 130 due to strats, but they don't need strats to be worthwhile at 115. Unless you want to claim that ALL of Chaos's heavy options are bad. Which may well be true, but I'm not convinced.
New Chaos Space Marine codex errata. Page 1, bottom right column.
Well gak.
Probably final nail in the Oblits as is.
Oblits are just fine at 115 points. It makes their weapons profile balanced as compared to havocs and combi-plasma terminators, and their survivability per point. And then they gain huge benefits from strat and buff synergy. They could be 130pts and still be worth using.
If you play a legion that can mark slaanesh, yes. If you play anything other than slaanesh, they're massively overcosted. Which shows the balance issues when you determine point costs based on strategems, especially stratagems that are faction locked. If it was a general strategem any chaos player could use it might be a different story. Same issue with eh LD being great....but only if you play black legion, otherwise it's half as survivable.
No. Even without strats being factored in, they are almost exactly internally balanced against other similar unit options at 115pts. I say they would be worthwhile at 130 due to strats, but they don't need strats to be worthwhile at 115. Unless you want to claim that ALL of Chaos's heavy options are bad. Which may well be true, but I'm not convinced.
just compare the points vs output of oblits vs havocs, or oblits vs broadsides, or oblits vs well...literally almost any heavy shooting oriented unit. I'm not saying they should be 65, that was stupidly too cheap, to the point that anyone using 65 points was not the kind of person worth playing against as it was obviously a typo. But 115 is also too expensive. somewhere around 95 points seems to be a general consensus of where they should be.
New Chaos Space Marine codex errata. Page 1, bottom right column.
Well gak.
Probably final nail in the Oblits as is.
Oblits are just fine at 115 points. It makes their weapons profile balanced as compared to havocs and combi-plasma terminators, and their survivability per point. And then they gain huge benefits from strat and buff synergy. They could be 130pts and still be worth using.
If you play a legion that can mark slaanesh, yes. If you play anything other than slaanesh, they're massively overcosted. Which shows the balance issues when you determine point costs based on strategems, especially stratagems that are faction locked. If it was a general strategem any chaos player could use it might be a different story. Same issue with eh LD being great....but only if you play black legion, otherwise it's half as survivable.
No. Even without strats being factored in, they are almost exactly internally balanced against other similar unit options at 115pts. I say they would be worthwhile at 130 due to strats, but they don't need strats to be worthwhile at 115. Unless you want to claim that ALL of Chaos's heavy options are bad. Which may well be true, but I'm not convinced.
just compare the points vs output of oblits vs havocs, or oblits vs broadsides, or oblits vs well...literally almost any heavy shooting oriented unit. I'm not saying they should be 65, that was stupidly too cheap, to the point that anyone using 65 points was not the kind of person worth playing against as it was obviously a typo. But 115 is also too expensive. somewhere around 95 points seems to be a general consensus of where they should be.
Nah man I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. I literally ran those numbers, along with a lot of other ones, about 20 pages back in this thread. And what was found is that Oblits measure up almost exactly to havocs and combi-plasma terminators, point for point, in both firepower and durability while at 115. Havocs have slightly more firepower depending on their weapon, but slightly less durability. Combi-plas terminators have a bit more firepower and durability, but less range. They all line up really appropriately with slightly different strengths/weaknesses, but all of them averaging out about the same. If oblits are any cheaper, then they are flat out better. And that's BEFORE you account for all the buffs they can get due to having <Daemon>, and before you account for stratagems.
One big change that does somewhat hurt Oblits is that they have to roll new stats for their guns every time they shoot, so no rolling god numbers and then using Endless Cacophony to shoot again with the same stats. Same thing happened to Ork Lootas (they have to roll for number of shots each time they shoot, including with Showin' Off).
rayphoton wrote: What is the build for this "Black Legion Chain Lord" I keep seeing pop up?
BL chaos lord with ghorisvex teeth relic chainsword from vigilus ablaze and flames of spite WLT, mark of khorne. You can use him on a bike, or with JP. Use VOTLW on him, and the dark apostle prayer soultearer portent for +2 to wound. You get 6 attacks hitting on 2+, re-rolling 1s. Any 4+ to wound will do 2 MW, in addition to normal damage. Use the khorne fight again stratagem to get more attacks. Possible variation is on juggernaut of khorne, you lose VOTLW, but you gain more attacks from the mount. Cast diabolic strength on him for another attack, replace his bolt pistol for another chainsword, for another attack, which only does 1 MW on a 4+ to wound.
115 points for Oblits
Renegades are locked to specific gods.
For those that have been playing their oblits at 115? Do you still feel like they're worth the investment?
Where did you find that renegades are locked to specific gods? I can't find the errata for vigilus ablaze, which I imagine would be the right one.
In the vigilus ablaze FAQ. For me, it's the first one amongst 40kFAQs on the Warhammer community website.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The way I understand the CSMFAQ, legion traits now apply to "Characters", so Lord Discordants benefit from them.
With a built in +1 to-hit, I'm really tempted by a flawless host supreme command.
Anyone who didn't know oblits were a typo and were going to be 115 was pretty dumb. That being said it's obvious the 115 points was written prior to CA 2018 and was waaaaayyyy overpriced.
And i'm still not seeing anywhere about locking renegades chapters into one god. I just triple checked. There isn't even a Vigilus ablaze FAQ on the FAQ site, the first one in the list is shadowspear. The Chaos FAQ only locks world eaters and Emperors Children into a specific god.
Lastly, yeah i believe Lord Discordants now get legion traits. My Corsairs LD is happy to be able to advance and charge...too bad demon engines still don't get it. I guess we can't all be Eldar/IG and asking for some rules consistency is too much.
Thank you. For some reason it's not listed on the FAQ page, unless you switch to a language other than english, then it's there.
Removed - BrookM
In their own commentary they've stated that the legion/renegade traits "allow you to play your own chapter, just pick whichever trait feels fit's your custom chapter closest" this has always been the case. No other army, not a single one, outside chaos has restrictions put on which chapter/faction/legion/ect trait you can pick. Once again chaos getting the shaft. Seriously what harm would there be in letting people play whichever trait they want in an army for their own chapter? Every single army in the game is built that way so that you can homebrew your own fluff and paint your dudes however you see fit, then just pick the trait which best fits your fluff as long as you follow the rules of the trait.
You can paint your dudes however you want. You aren't getting shafted. You do, however, have play the rules as GW writes them and not benefit from things they didn't intend. The flawless host has been in the fluff for a while now. They have been a Slaanesh dedicated warband the entire time. You can paint your guys however you and and use them as Flawless host- they just have to be Slaanesh. Just like Emperor's Children have to be Slaanesh marked.
Nobody is getting shafted. To think you could just cherry pick units, strats, etc and use a god dedicated warbands rules is what is/was ridiculous.
This is a great move by GW. Keeps the game aligned with the fluff.
everything you said is incorrect. Either you didn't read, didn't understand, or didn't bother.
No one is advocating cherry picking unis, strats, ect. Nowhere did i say or even imply that you should be able to pick emperors children trait, brazen bull strategems, and relics from red corsairs. Simply that you should be able to use all of a legion/chapters rules exactly as written, without being locked in to that specific chapters lore, as GW themselves even stated you could. Or did you miss the part where GW has in every release stated that those chapters/factions/cults ect aren't meant to represent only those but to represent a style of play, so if you play your own chapter you can pick any of the current trait sets to represent them.
Tell me, are bad moon orks restricted to only shootey units? that's fluffy, they should be by your logic.
No it's not a great move, it kills personalized warbands/chapters/ect. You sound like one of those guys who thinks every army must be painted exactly how their pictured on the GW box art and throws a fit if a guy shows up with an army painted orange with his own chapter lore and uses the salamanders rules. "BUT THEY"RE NOT GREEN! THAT"S NOT FLUFF!!!" People like you wreck the hobby.
Nothing about not forcing a god choice is cherry picking or breaks the game in any way. So what, you can't play your own renegade legion? you can't play any legion other than those listed, not for rules reasons but because you're hung up on the name just like whatever unthinking fool at GW made this rule? To think that creating an arbitrary restriction that only applies to chaos armies with no purpose and that kills players ability to lore up their own chapter for their dudes is ridiculous. Or are you advocating they go change all the other armies to remove all ability to customize how you play? "oh can't use aberrents in pauper prince factions because in the story pauper princes don't have aberrents." and crap like that?
There's no valid reason i shouldn't be able to play with all the emperors children rules but paint my dudes gold and call them the Sphincter Surfers of Aguilon 12, using the EC rules to represent how they're so eager they always fight first. Nothing about that is doing anything that breaks rules or manipulates rules to get an advantage. And that's what you seem to be failing to seperate, you seem to be under the impression that not following these asinine fluff rules get's some advantage, it doesn't, it's mearly to help foster people to create their own attachment to their armies. But now GW is setting a precedent that they haven't done with literraly any other army, where they're writing rules to disallow creating your own lore. Again something they've not done with any other army in the game.
Are you for real dude? Seriously?
Nobody is saying you have to paint your guys a certain way. I never said anything like that if you would actually look at what was posted. Paint schemes don't matter. Picking a warbands because you like the rules to represent your own warband is great! Do it! However, certain warbands and legions, in fluff, are dedicated to a single god. You gotta take that into account.
What I am saying is that you want to play Flawless host, a slaanesh marked warband, you should have to mark them of slaanesh. Maybe I didn't explain it. Same as emperor's children have to marked of slaanesh. You can't come up with your own lore, bio's for the commanders, unit markings, paint scheme, etc. But if you want to use the rules of a certain chapter, legion, warband, etc, you have to mark them appropriately.
How is that a big deal?
Its not.
Nobody is saying you have to paint your guys in a codex approved manner or can't come up with your own lore. Get a grip.
Nobody is talking about the big nerf that Castellans received? Raise ion shields can now no longer buff invul save to better than a 4++. And Castellans are now 100 points more expensive. We may see less Castellans now in lists, and even those with them have 100 points less to play with, and the Castellans are slightly easier to destroy now.
This increases the viability of vehicles a lot more now. So, conversely, a daemon engine theme list just got stronger now because one of its biggest "counters" just got nerfed.
Combine this with legion traits applying to Characters now, so LD also got a buff. Daemon Engine lists are looking more and more interesting.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Nobody is talking about the big nerf that Castellans received? Raise ion shields can now no longer buff invul save to better than a 4++. And Castellans are now 100 points more expensive. We may see less Castellans now in lists, and even those with them have 100 points less to play with, and the Castellans are slightly easier to destroy now.
This increases the viability of vehicles a lot more now. So, conversely, a daemon engine theme list just got stronger now because one of its biggest "counters" just got nerfed.
Combine this with legion traits applying to Characters now, so LD also got a buff. Daemon Engine lists are looking more and more interesting.
And the Plague Hulk now has Legion, so it can be taken in CSM detachments! I'm not sure it's worth it of course. It's like 50% more expensive than the defiler, but it's got t8, 5+++, and nice weapons.
Huge buff to the Lord Dischordant to get access to Legion traits. Flawless Host will have him triggering Death to the Imperfect on a 5+ even without any other boosts. The Flawless Host Prince we discussed earlier will actually get outperformed by such a Lord.
LD has the same weaknesses as before. Yes he got buffed, but I think he will always be balanced by the fact that he is a 12W T6 character that can be targeted.
You probably won't win the game just with spamming 3 LDs. But as part of a daemon engine theme list, that has possibilities. And it would be because of the entire lists effort, not just the LDs on their own.
I don't think anyone was surprised by the Oblits points FAQ. It was obviously a printing error. They are reasonably priced within lists built in a certain way. You have to build around them if you bring Oblits, and they are priced based on a unit of 3 can do with strategems and support added on. Let's not forget that Castellans got nerfed. Again, the meta may change into one where Oblits get to shine more compared with previously.
I am curious if LD can actually be competitive. Not as in "the absolute best thing ever" but as in "can be featured in competitive lists as part of chaos soup and be genuinely helpful". That -1 ALLD really does seem like in a trio he could be really good.
I am very excited about that new Slaanesh Mirror as well, splashing advance+charge onto them from an allied detachment. I think I am pretty heavily leaning into a supreme command alpha legion with 3 LDs, a cheap daemons slaanesh bat with a mirror and a DP and then either the standard TS Ahriman + 2 DPs or a CP red corsairs group.
Pretty much universally good changes for Chaos here. Oblit changes were always going to happen and as pointed out they are still really good.
A few huge meta things that favour us imo:
1. Castellan nerf, helping our daemon engines and dreadnoughts survive, while improving our shooting across the board vis a vis the Knight.
2. Flyer nerf means it's harder to control the board with those oppressive 5+ flyer lists. Especially good for daemon engines but also useful for melee infantry.
3. Eldar + Ynnari nerf. DE no longer can benefit from the awesome CWE powers and Ynnari got kicked in the nuts.
4. Flying units can now charge across screens. This one means more Smash Captains to deal with but at the same time makes our own DPs, Jump Lords and Raptors/Talons better.
Could summoning actually be good now that a MoP can move + summon? I don't know. There's still a problem of a 9" charge. It could be good with a blob of 30 PBs or Horrors for board control / shooting respectively. Bloodletters you still definitely want in a detachment with the icon strat but maybe if you just want to bring a Greater Daemon it could work out (if you have the buffs to get the roll).
Eldenfirefly wrote: Nobody is talking about the big nerf that Castellans received? Raise ion shields can now no longer buff invul save to better than a 4++. And Castellans are now 100 points more expensive. We may see less Castellans now in lists, and even those with them have 100 points less to play with, and the Castellans are slightly easier to destroy now.
This increases the viability of vehicles a lot more now. So, conversely, a daemon engine theme list just got stronger now because one of its biggest "counters" just got nerfed.
Combine this with legion traits applying to Characters now, so LD also got a buff. Daemon Engine lists are looking more and more interesting.
And the Plague Hulk now has Legion, so it can be taken in CSM detachments! I'm not sure it's worth it of course. It's like 50% more expensive than the defiler, but it's got t8, 5+++, and nice weapons.
.defiler does seem better. The Plague hulk does have the advantage that it can be summoned, with might have some synergy with MoP/ greater possessed.
Also I just realised that a MoP can summon and then occupy a Skull Altar. 16" +1 attack aura for <KHORNE DAEMON> units worth it? Could be hilarious with a unit of Possessed.
everything you said is incorrect. Either you didn't read, didn't understand, or didn't bother.
No one is advocating cherry picking unis, strats, ect. Nowhere did i say or even imply that you should be able to pick emperors children trait, brazen bull strategems, and relics from red corsairs. Simply that you should be able to use all of a legion/chapters rules exactly as written, without being locked in to that specific chapters lore, as GW themselves even stated you could. Or did you miss the part where GW has in every release stated that those chapters/factions/cults ect aren't meant to represent only those but to represent a style of play, so if you play your own chapter you can pick any of the current trait sets to represent them.
Tell me, are bad moon orks restricted to only shootey units? that's fluffy, they should be by your logic.
No it's not a great move, it kills personalized warbands/chapters/ect. You sound like one of those guys who thinks every army must be painted exactly how their pictured on the GW box art and throws a fit if a guy shows up with an army painted orange with his own chapter lore and uses the salamanders rules. "BUT THEY"RE NOT GREEN! THAT"S NOT FLUFF!!!" People like you wreck the hobby.
Nothing about not forcing a god choice is cherry picking or breaks the game in any way. So what, you can't play your own renegade legion? you can't play any legion other than those listed, not for rules reasons but because you're hung up on the name just like whatever unthinking fool at GW made this rule? To think that creating an arbitrary restriction that only applies to chaos armies with no purpose and that kills players ability to lore up their own chapter for their dudes is ridiculous. Or are you advocating they go change all the other armies to remove all ability to customize how you play? "oh can't use aberrents in pauper prince factions because in the story pauper princes don't have aberrents." and crap like that?
There's no valid reason i shouldn't be able to play with all the emperors children rules but paint my dudes gold and call them the Sphincter Surfers of Aguilon 12, using the EC rules to represent how they're so eager they always fight first. Nothing about that is doing anything that breaks rules or manipulates rules to get an advantage. And that's what you seem to be failing to seperate, you seem to be under the impression that not following these asinine fluff rules get's some advantage, it doesn't, it's mearly to help foster people to create their own attachment to their armies. But now GW is setting a precedent that they haven't done with literraly any other army, where they're writing rules to disallow creating your own lore. Again something they've not done with any other army in the game.
I get both sides of the problem here - I've always loved that Chaos has so many flavours you end up spoilt for choice and when putting together your own theme or even a full bio for your army, nothing gets you as much freedom as playing Chaos.
But the problem with the legion traits – especially the new ones (I'm looking at you The Purge) – is how they will interact with other god-specific abilities we can get. Let's take The Purge as an example. Before the god-lock, you could get:
Slaaneshi Oblits – light up an enemy target for the full to hit re-rolls and then use EC to blast the target (any target, likely) into dust. Oh, and give the Oblits delightful agonies to improve your chances to rinse and repeat next turn. Yeah, I was looking forward to this one.
The Purge Zerkers – light up a target for the full re-rolls to hit and, again, you're getting double-tap for a nice increase in damage output.
I bet people here can come up with more examples of buff-stacking (Flawless Host Berzerkers + prescience, anybody?), but I suppose you get the drift. All that said, nobody is stopping you from creating your own lore at all. And if you want certain units in your army to behave a certain way, you can still go for multiple detachments. Even more so if the lore is your primary reason to play – don't forget that narrative play exists where you're not limited by the rule of three.
I don't get what the deal is. Of the 13 legion/renegade options to choose from, only 6 of them are locked to a specific god. There are plenty of list building options for those who want to build a custom warband.
GW will have balanced the 4 new renegade traits around the fact that they were intended to be god-locked. This is not some balance patch that came out a year after release, this is in the first FAQ.
saint_red wrote: I don't get what the deal is. Of the 13 legion/renegade options to choose from, only 6 of them are locked to a specific god. There are plenty of list building options for those who want to build a custom warband.
GW will have balanced the 4 new renegade traits around the fact that they were intended to be god-locked. This is not some balance patch that came out a year after release, this is in the first FAQ.
I'd hazard the issue boils down to some people wanting to stack the most advantageous traits with god specific units/strats that are now prohibited due to a mark lockdown. They wanted flawless host zerkers or w/e but that is no longer an option.
Whilst I don't think the change is unreasonable at all, people losing options after having had them for a month is always going to leave a bitter taste, especially if they were players who didn't read into the fluff to see this coming.
To be fair, it was a rather obvious oversight, and anyone who went on and actually bought/built anything for that sole purpose without even waiting for the FAQ (who is, as a rule, about 2-4 weeks after book drops these days) was a dumbass.
I mean, I wanted to have Tzeentch Purge oblits to combo up with my TS, but I had the basic wisdom (or decency) to understand its probably not intended and wait for the FAQ.
With all the different legion/renegade option, its hardly as if core CSM are lacking options even if a few are god-locked.
I see Black Legion and Renegade Characters get the battleforged trait (from the Vigilus FAQ) but couldn't spot the same in the CSM codex. Have I just missed it?
lare2 wrote: I see Black Legion and Renegade Characters get the battleforged trait (from the Vigilus FAQ) but couldn't spot the same in the CSM codex. Have I just missed it?
It's in the CSM errata but not in magenta. I think GW got confused by its own formatting guidelines. Probably because their own publication style guides are nowadays scattered between 21 different documents and versions
lare2 wrote: I see Black Legion and Renegade Characters get the battleforged trait (from the Vigilus FAQ) but couldn't spot the same in the CSM codex. Have I just missed it?
It's in the CSM errata but not in magenta. I think GW got confused by its own formatting guidelines. Probably because their own publication style guides are nowadays scattered between 21 different documents and versions
saint_red wrote: Also I just realised that a MoP can summon and then occupy a Skull Altar. 16" +1 attack aura for <KHORNE DAEMON> units worth it? Could be hilarious with a unit of Possessed.
Sorry, this only applies if the Summoner is a Daemon - Skulltaker or a Bloodmaster, in other words.
ZergSmasher wrote: One big change that does somewhat hurt Oblits is that they have to roll new stats for their guns every time they shoot, so no rolling god numbers and then using Endless Cacophony to shoot again with the same stats. Same thing happened to Ork Lootas (they have to roll for number of shots each time they shoot, including with Showin' Off).
Am I reading right that you also roll the stats one by one? The way I’d play that is:
- Roll D3 + 6 Str.
- - Rolled less than you wanted? Decide now if you want to CRR or Mutated Invigoration it; you can’t wait until you know what rolls you get for AP and Damage. If AP & Damage are really important right now, think carefully. Okay, decision made, one way or the other, time to...
- Roll -D3 AP.
- - Rolled less than you wanted? Decide now if you want to CRR or Mutated Invigoration it; you can’t wait until you know what roll you get for Damage. If Damage is really important right now, think carefully. Used up your only reroll on Strength? Tough luck. Okay, decision made, one way or the other, time to...
- Roll D3 Damage.
- - Rolled less than you wanted? Decide now if you want to CRR or Mutated Invigoration it; you can’t wait until you know what rolls you get for AP and Damage. Used up your reroll/s on Strength and AP? Tough luck. Accepted poor rolls on Strength and AP because Damage is really important right now, and now rolled a natural 3? Tough luck, no going back.
This feels like a significant step back from how I played it before of rolling all three then picking what to reroll (was that even the right way to play it? Eh, it’s done). Buuut also an ok boost to MoP.
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saint_red wrote: MoP is a Daemon though right? Unless there's some thing about it being a Faction keyword?
Eldenfirefly wrote: Nobody is talking about the big nerf that Castellans received? Raise ion shields can now no longer buff invul save to better than a 4++. And Castellans are now 100 points more expensive. We may see less Castellans now in lists, and even those with them have 100 points less to play with, and the Castellans are slightly easier to destroy now.
This increases the viability of vehicles a lot more now. So, conversely, a daemon engine theme list just got stronger now because one of its biggest "counters" just got nerfed.
Combine this with legion traits applying to Characters now, so LD also got a buff. Daemon Engine lists are looking more and more interesting.
And the Plague Hulk now has Legion, so it can be taken in CSM detachments! I'm not sure it's worth it of course. It's like 50% more expensive than the defiler, but it's got t8, 5+++, and nice weapons.
.defiler does seem better. The Plague hulk does have the advantage that it can be summoned, with might have some synergy with MoP/ greater possessed.
Given that it’s so slow and unreliable in output, I can see arguments to advance MoP, be a Word Bearer or near a Gnarlmaw, and drop it in the enemy’s face. Proximity raises its threat level to be a functional Distraction Carnifex. (Assuming you survived going first with a couple of hundred points of distraction not yet existing)
Has anyone tried out the MoP to summon after moving? I am wondering if it could be an option for the new Keeper of Secrets, as if you deploy her/him/it on the board T1 it's toast.
Depends on the PL you need to roll to summon the good thing.
Also you need to be slaanesh and or unaligned MoP wise.
It’s fairly reliable if you’re a Word Bearer. Again, this does entail starting with a load of points not yet existing.
I'm more daemon player but started looking more into daemon engines now and daemonkin (to me it's still fluffy to mix them up but not with regular CSM) as well.
Yesterday having some practice game I started to think, is there any way (CP, spell, ability) to make vehicles explosion more possible? For example instead of it exploding on 6+ making it explode on 4+ for CP?
Sorry if someone has already asked for this and I'm bringing it up again.
Only if you’re Death Guard. I’ve used it to ok effect!
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buddha wrote: Wow legion traits applying to lord discordants is huge. AL versions become much more survivable. Red corsairs can yolo and advance and charge (even better in a soulforged detachment).
Word Bearers represent! None of my LDs gonna fail Morale now
Emperor’s Children Lords on Steeds with Murder Sword or Black Mace look a little interesting now. Especially if you can hug the victim with Fiends.
Ah he has a 5++ from "Daemonkin" but does not in fact have the Daemon keyword. Thanks for picking that up! The Greater Possesed does have the Daemon keyword and would be able to summon it , but I feel like none of the buffs are really worth it unless you are planning on summoning a lot more Khorne daemons, and they really want someone with the Locus hanging around.
saint_red wrote: Ah he has a 5++ from "Daemonkin" but does not in fact have the Daemon keyword. Thanks for picking that up! The Greater Possesed does have the Daemon keyword and would be able to summon it , but I feel like none of the buffs are really worth it unless you are planning on summoning a lot more Khorne daemons, and they really want someone with the Locus hanging around.
Don’t forget that KHORNE DAEMON includes a lot of HA units. If a Bloodmaster runs forwards/is summoned T1 then drops an altar T2, this can benefit:
- a cavalcade of stompy Daemon Engines that moved up T1;
- a wing of Warp Talons dropping in T2;
- a Skullreaver Prince. (Not HA, but if you’re already including one Daemon HQ...)
Some nice combos to be had with Crimson Crown, as well. Especially with a LD, Prescience, Warp-Sight Plea... can near enough double a LoS or Kytan’s firepower.
ZergSmasher wrote: One big change that does somewhat hurt Oblits is that they have to roll new stats for their guns every time they shoot, so no rolling god numbers and then using Endless Cacophony to shoot again with the same stats. Same thing happened to Ork Lootas (they have to roll for number of shots each time they shoot, including with Showin' Off).
Am I reading right that you also roll the stats one by one? The way I’d play that is:
- Roll D3 + 6 Str.
- - Rolled less than you wanted? Decide now if you want to CRR or Mutated Invigoration it; you can’t wait until you know what rolls you get for AP and Damage. If AP & Damage are really important right now, think carefully. Okay, decision made, one way or the other, time to...
- Roll -D3 AP.
- - Rolled less than you wanted? Decide now if you want to CRR or Mutated Invigoration it; you can’t wait until you know what roll you get for Damage. If Damage is really important right now, think carefully. Used up your only reroll on Strength? Tough luck. Okay, decision made, one way or the other, time to...
- Roll D3 Damage.
- - Rolled less than you wanted? Decide now if you want to CRR or Mutated Invigoration it; you can’t wait until you know what rolls you get for AP and Damage. Used up your reroll/s on Strength and AP? Tough luck. Accepted poor rolls on Strength and AP because Damage is really important right now, and now rolled a natural 3? Tough luck, no going back.
This feels like a significant step back from how I played it before of rolling all three then picking what to reroll (was that even the right way to play it? Eh, it’s done). Buuut also an ok boost to MoP.
This has always been the case. In fact, the codex explicitly instructs you (as it did before) as to which order you're rolling the dice - S first, then AP, then damage.
saint_red wrote: Ah he has a 5++ from "Daemonkin" but does not in fact have the Daemon keyword. Thanks for picking that up! The Greater Possesed does have the Daemon keyword and would be able to summon it , but I feel like none of the buffs are really worth it unless you are planning on summoning a lot more Khorne daemons, and they really want someone with the Locus hanging around.
Don’t forget that KHORNE DAEMON includes a lot of HA units. If a Bloodmaster runs forwards/is summoned T1 then drops an altar T2, this can benefit:
- a cavalcade of stompy Daemon Engines that moved up T1;
- a wing of Warp Talons dropping in T2;
- a Skullreaver Prince. (Not HA, but if you’re already including one Daemon HQ...)
Some nice combos to be had with Crimson Crown, as well. Especially with a LD, Prescience, Warp-Sight Plea... can near enough double a LoS or Kytan’s firepower.
I really want to make it work but I'm not sure the 100 points for the Altar + the points for the Altar-sitter is worth it. I love the image of it though, so I might have to get one to test it out. A BL bomb would definitely provide the most mileage from the +1A buff so that might be an option to look at.
While not hyper competitive I actually think summoning with WBs is kinda viable now. We have the option for a 4 dice summon with Incursion and of course the rerolls from the stratagem. The MoP with Possessed is a genuinely useful character anyway so you don't need to build your entire list around the concept either.
My main gripe with the god-locking of renegades is that the Brazen Beasts, the ones who specialize in using Daemon Engines, cannot take a MoP. What is so terrifying floof wise about an unsigned psyker helping make/maintain them? You know, the primary unit for buffing daemon engines? FFS I'm tired of having to repaint my engines.
rayphoton wrote: What is the build for this "Black Legion Chain Lord" I keep seeing pop up?
BL chaos lord with ghorisvex teeth relic chainsword from vigilus ablaze and flames of spite WLT, mark of khorne. You can use him on a bike, or with JP. Use VOTLW on him, and the dark apostle prayer soultearer portent for +2 to wound. You get 6 attacks hitting on 2+, re-rolling 1s. Any 4+ to wound will do 2 MW, in addition to normal damage. Use the khorne fight again stratagem to get more attacks. Possible variation is on juggernaut of khorne, you lose VOTLW, but you gain more attacks from the mount. Cast diabolic strength on him for another attack, replace his bolt pistol for another chainsword, for another attack, which only does 1 MW on a 4+ to wound.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Where is the updated Cultist datasheet (and legion trait nerf) for us with the old codex?
I thought this would make it into the FAQs.
Cultists were changed? Havent seen any referance to this anywhere. And the Legion Trait nerf? Only thing I saw is it now gives a trait to Lords Discordant, which would seem to be a buff? What else have I missed lol.
Vigilus Ablaze and the updated CSM Codex have a rule that Cultists don't benefit from Legion Traits as well as lowering the max number of Cultists in a unit. Not sure why Nightlord thought they would make it into the FAQ, though.
Well, for one, GW said buying v2 of the codex wasnt necessary , so how would I even know about Mere Mortals or the cap on unit size to 30 models? I have Vigilus Ablaze, but mere mortals is only referenced to the Black Legion Detachment.
Much like they gave the new Greater Posessed and updated Obliterators datasheets online, I had assumed the new Cultist datasheet would have been released also.
Regarding shooting, with the cost increase of castellans and the slight nerf to Imperial Knights, would a double-avenger renegade become more viable in our lists?
It's somewhat less likely to be completely disrespected by a castellan or equivalent porphyrion....or is the lack of traits/stratagems still too much?
necrotekkie wrote: Regarding shooting, with the cost increase of castellans and the slight nerf to Imperial Knights, would a double-avenger renegade become more viable in our lists?
It's somewhat less likely to be completely disrespected by a castellan or equivalent porphyrion....or is the lack of traits/stratagems still too much?
Someone offered to sell me 2 Castellans this morning for $90 total. Small sign of the sentiment towards this unit.
In theory, Renegade Knights improved relative to the points cost of their betters. Personally, I think Vigilus Ablaze did more for them, Soulforged Packs and Devastation Batteries mean RKs are not the only big threat on the table.
So I'd say they are more viable, but a lot depends on the list.
I would buy 2 castellens for 90$, even with the nerfs lol. But i think your right techsoldaten, it depends on your list to whats viable and feasible in your meta.
Azuza001 wrote: I would buy 2 castellens for 90$, even with the nerfs lol. But i think your right techsoldaten, it depends on your list to whats viable and feasible in your meta.
No, doubt rules change on a whim, but models are forever. Next FAQ they might be right back to being OP.
Did anyone see that Noise Marines got a nerf? If you die in combat they can no longer shoot out of it, pistols only now. Sad...
Azuza001 wrote: I would buy 2 castellens for 90$, even with the nerfs lol. But i think your right techsoldaten, it depends on your list to whats viable and feasible in your meta.
No, doubt rules change on a whim, but models are forever. Next FAQ they might be right back to being OP.
Did anyone see that Noise Marines got a nerf? If you die in combat they can no longer shoot out of it, pistols only now. Sad...
Yes, models are forever. Eventually consuming all closet space, available storage, and patience of the significant other...
As delighted as I am to get some new, expensive models cheap, there's a part of me questioning what must go for them to have shelf space.
With the Noise Marines - how many times do they actually get into close combat? I'm okay with the nerf from the standpoint of "no one should be firing rifles in close combat, much less sniping other units."
I am really loving the change allowing legion traits to work on the LoD. He will be good with Alpha Legion for survivable, or Flawless Host, Red Corsairs, or World Eaters for CC stomping people. Purged might also be good (especially with the Nurgle healing). The only thing that sucks is he is not very useful against Aircraft, which I think will be even more present after this FAQ, (as they are the top list that took the least nerfs) but I guess you just use him to chew up everything else to prevent scoring as now you can at least move under Aircraft. I think you will see at least two of these guys in most competitive Chaos lists.
Love my Noise Marines. Perfectly happy for them to have a streamlined rule. Perfectly happy that their heavy gunners don’t become snipers whenever they get punched in the face.
lindsay40k wrote: Love my Noise Marines. Perfectly happy for them to have a streamlined rule. Perfectly happy that their heavy gunners don’t become snipers whenever they get punched in the face.
Azuza001 wrote: I would buy 2 castellens for 90$, even with the nerfs lol. But i think your right techsoldaten, it depends on your list to whats viable and feasible in your meta.
No, doubt rules change on a whim, but models are forever. Next FAQ they might be right back to being OP.
Did anyone see that Noise Marines got a nerf? If you die in combat they can no longer shoot out of it, pistols only now. Sad...
Yes, models are forever. Eventually consuming all closet space, available storage, and patience of the significant other...
As delighted as I am to get some new, expensive models cheap, there's a part of me questioning what must go for them to have shelf space.
With the Noise Marines - how many times do they actually get into close combat? I'm okay with the nerf from the standpoint of "no one should be firing rifles in close combat, much less sniping other units."
I probably will get 1, a drill, a saw and a lot of cables and daemon bits to finaly make my cable daemon project happen
Sokhar wrote: Huge buff to the Lord Dischordant to get access to Legion traits. Flawless Host will have him triggering Death to the Imperfect on a 5+ even without any other boosts. The Flawless Host Prince we discussed earlier will actually get outperformed by such a Lord.
If he reaches CC. He's 12W and therefore targetable by anything all the time. I personally prefer my "tank" build: Black Legion LD with Indomitable and Mark of Nurgle/ Slaanesh for Miasma or Delightful Agonies. Use Sightless Helm to give him more bite in a scrap. More than enough punch while being resilient enough to actually have a chance to survive a turn. Leave the glass cannon builds for Daemon Princes and Smashlords who have the sub-10W character protection.
Abaddon303 wrote: CSM don't have a lieutenant equivalent unfortunately. The only other wound rerol at distance I can think of is daemonforge on a shooting Daemon engine
Sokhar wrote: Huge buff to the Lord Dischordant to get access to Legion traits. Flawless Host will have him triggering Death to the Imperfect on a 5+ even without any other boosts. The Flawless Host Prince we discussed earlier will actually get outperformed by such a Lord.
If he reaches CC. He's 12W and therefore targetable by anything all the time. I personally prefer my "tank" build: Black Legion LD with Indomitable and Mark of Nurgle/ Slaanesh for Miasma or Delightful Agonies. Use Sightless Helm to give him more bite in a scrap. More than enough punch while being resilient enough to actually have a chance to survive a turn. Leave the glass cannon builds for Daemon Princes and Smashlords who have the sub-10W character protection.
Exactly. Thats how i run mine. Works perfectly fine.
I do Indomitable and Nurgle for miasma + papa nurgles special strat for healing an additional d3 wounds when it does get hurt. Sorcerers are more than capable of keeping up with this guy as needed, either a bike build which i prefer (not infantry, suck it vindicar) or jump pack. That leaves misasma to drop onto something else annoying like a defiler or giant blob of marines (i still find black legion marines to be quite useful in a squad of 20. They can advance and shoot if needed, can be warp timed if even more speed is needed, and once in cover its a huge pain to remove 20 2+/5+++ single wound marines all while unloading using vets of the long war to actually do some work).
Abaddon303 wrote: CSM don't have a lieutenant equivalent unfortunately. The only other wound rerol at distance I can think of is daemonforge on a shooting Daemon engine
Ah, I did forget about that. Thank you.
Devastation Battery specialist detachment lets you give a CL or WS a 6” reroll 1’s to wound vehicles aura
Pretty tasty when it’s a CL babysitting some Lascannon Havocs and Oblits. 2CP paywall though, if you want another Warlord; that kind of suggests adding a few more units to the detachment
Well, nothing stopping you from turning you main detachment into the devestation battery.
And given that you are likely to pack a CL and/or WS in there anyway, there is basically no cost besided the 2CP. (and the opportunity cost of not taking another specialist I guess?)
Question is, if your list is built to take advantage of it.
Well, I like Daemonkin lists with stompy death robots.
If I’m going Nurgle, I take a Gnarlmaw for turn one Advance, Warptime, shoot, charge, and Epidemius for Force multiplying and scarecrowing on a home objective. That right there invites some Oblits to benefit from 0+ saves, and some Havocs to soften up targets for the mechs to finish. The threat of their punishing volley looks good, especially if it’s rerolling wounds.
If I’m going Slaanesh, I’m more likely to make my gunners Noise Marines, and have my Oblits teleport in. They’re not rooted (oho) to a Gnarlmaw, so leveraging their deep strike makes up for their mediocre range.
If I’m going Khorne, I’m probably going to give the Altar a try. I made some smexy Warp Talons, and I mean to use them.
If I’m going Tzeentch, I’m looking at a mass of Horrors for screen clearance, plus a TSDP or two.
So, I guess my gunline Marshall CL may as well get a Nurgle paint job
I get both sides of the problem here - I've always loved that Chaos has so many flavours you end up spoilt for choice and when putting together your own theme or even a full bio for your army, nothing gets you as much freedom as playing Chaos.
But the problem with the legion traits – especially the new ones (I'm looking at you The Purge) – is how they will interact with other god-specific abilities we can get. Let's take The Purge as an example. Before the god-lock, you could get:
Slaaneshi Oblits – light up an enemy target for the full to hit re-rolls and then use EC to blast the target (any target, likely) into dust. Oh, and give the Oblits delightful agonies to improve your chances to rinse and repeat next turn. Yeah, I was looking forward to this one.
The Purge Zerkers – light up a target for the full re-rolls to hit and, again, you're getting double-tap for a nice increase in damage output.
I bet people here can come up with more examples of buff-stacking (Flawless Host Berzerkers + prescience, anybody?), but I suppose you get the drift. All that said, nobody is stopping you from creating your own lore at all. And if you want certain units in your army to behave a certain way, you can still go for multiple detachments. Even more so if the lore is your primary reason to play – don't forget that narrative play exists where you're not limited by the rule of three.
Oh I do agree that if you really get dirty you could probably come up with a couple cool combos. But that's one of the issues with how GW seems to write each codex in a complete vacuum from one another. Those kinds of combos would be the norm in over half the other armies. Chaos is the only army that has so many things locked into your faction choice. For example my other army is GSC, the few combos that chaos can do pale in comparison to what i can do with my GSC army and the absurd amount of combos I have access to. So it's as if allowing any combos at all for chaos is seen as too powerful, but for other armies it's not. Like the writers of the codecies don't have an agreed upon design concept. I don't know if comobos are inherently overpowered, because in some armies they're treated as intended and in other armies taboo.
I'm also not really a tourny player, so i'm more concerned with how this limits coming up with your own warband and creating a story for your army. Yeah i'm that guy who has names for his HQ units and little backstories. Whoever wrote the Chaos update seems to not know that that's a thing in some parts of the community, a thing that in the past GW has fostered, and even has written that that's an intended function of the factions/chapters/ect.
TLDR, most other armies wouldn't even bat an eye at those combos, they're the norm. So would it really be a problem if chaos had a few good combos?
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saint_red wrote: I don't get what the deal is. Of the 13 legion/renegade options to choose from, only 6 of them are locked to a specific god. There are plenty of list building options for those who want to build a custom warband.
GW will have balanced the 4 new renegade traits around the fact that they were intended to be god-locked. This is not some balance patch that came out a year after release, this is in the first FAQ.
lol, i'm sorry but the notion that GW actually balanced them in any way, or even thought about balance is funny.
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StarHunter25 wrote: My main gripe with the god-locking of renegades is that the Brazen Beasts, the ones who specialize in using Daemon Engines, cannot take a MoP. What is so terrifying floof wise about an unsigned psyker helping make/maintain them? You know, the primary unit for buffing daemon engines? FFS I'm tired of having to repaint my engines.
agreed. Though personally i'd take that a step further and say the whole blocking world eaters and khorne in general from a MoP is silly. It's a hold over from waaaayyy back when psychers in 40k were more so 'magic.' and khorne hates 'magic.'
But let's think about this Khorne is a being of pure warp, all his demons are pure warp...yet he refuses to use the warp? it makes zero sense. So who summons all his demons if he doesn't allow use of the warp? What do his cultists do if they're not allowed to weaken the barrier between reality and the warp? who binds his demon engines if he doesn't allow use of the warp. The entire "khorne doens't like the warp" thing falls apart if you look at it at all. Especially with the MoP who looks exactly like the brutal metal shaman that i would picture a khorne sorcerer to look like. It's an instance of the fluff being extremely nonsensical. And from a rules perspective, what other armies limit you from taking models because 'that faction probably wouldn't have them?" the only one i can think of is black templars.
FWIW, every World Eaters character is perfectly capable of Summoning most Khorne Daemons. They don’t get a deity Daemon Stratagem like DG & TS, but stand on a Skull Altar near a Venomcrawler and a BT is feasible.
agreed. Though personally i'd take that a step further and say the whole blocking world eaters and khorne in general from a MoP is silly. It's a hold over from waaaayyy back when psychers in 40k were more so 'magic.' and khorne hates 'magic.'
But let's think about this Khorne is a being of pure warp, all his demons are pure warp...yet he refuses to use the warp? it makes zero sense. So who summons all his demons if he doesn't allow use of the warp? What do his cultists do if they're not allowed to weaken the barrier between reality and the warp? who binds his demon engines if he doesn't allow use of the warp. The entire "khorne doens't like the warp" thing falls apart if you look at it at all. Especially with the MoP who looks exactly like the brutal metal shaman that i would picture a khorne sorcerer to look like. It's an instance of the fluff being extremely nonsensical. And from a rules perspective, what other armies limit you from taking models because 'that faction probably wouldn't have them?" the only one i can think of is black templars.
Yeah, I think the whole thing was originally cooked up to show that Khorne only likes the loonies that go in and chop their opponents to bits with axes and despises those who chuck lightning bolts from a distance. It definitely reeks strongly of having been ported over from a fantasy environment.
It also becomes even more nonsensical when you find out that, waaay back when, Khorne was the only Chaos God who actually had any daemon engines at all!
Oh I do agree that if you really get dirty you could probably come up with a couple cool combos. But that's one of the issues with how GW seems to write each codex in a complete vacuum from one another. Those kinds of combos would be the norm in over half the other armies. Chaos is the only army that has so many things locked into your faction choice. For example my other army is GSC, the few combos that chaos can do pale in comparison to what i can do with my GSC army and the absurd amount of combos I have access to. So it's as if allowing any combos at all for chaos is seen as too powerful, but for other armies it's not. Like the writers of the codecies don't have an agreed upon design concept. I don't know if comobos are inherently overpowered, because in some armies they're treated as intended and in other armies taboo.
I'm also not really a tourny player, so i'm more concerned with how this limits coming up with your own warband and creating a story for your army. Yeah i'm that guy who has names for his HQ units and little backstories. Whoever wrote the Chaos update seems to not know that that's a thing in some parts of the community, a thing that in the past GW has fostered, and even has written that that's an intended function of the factions/chapters/ect.
TLDR, most other armies wouldn't even bat an eye at those combos, they're the norm. So would it really be a problem if chaos had a few good combos?
How the hell does this stop you from naming your own characters and creating your own warband? Just pick the legion rules that you like most. God-locking has nothing to do with it. These rules have only been out for 4 weeks!
If you want to run Purge rules with your Slaanesh warband in matched play well tough luck. Purge rules are themed for Nurgle units and warbands. If you only play casually then discuss with your opponent if you can run Purge rules.
saint_red wrote: I don't get what the deal is. Of the 13 legion/renegade options to choose from, only 6 of them are locked to a specific god. There are plenty of list building options for those who want to build a custom warband.
GW will have balanced the 4 new renegade traits around the fact that they were intended to be god-locked. This is not some balance patch that came out a year after release, this is in the first FAQ.
lol, i'm sorry but the notion that GW actually balanced them in any way, or even thought about balance is funny.
I am toying with the idea of a shooty Daemon Engine army.
The key driver behind this is MOP and LD. But to make it worthwhile to have a LD sitting in the backline for his aura instead of charging forward, I figured the LD and MOP would have to buff a ton of points of daemon engines. I arrived at 2 lascannon / havoc launcher defilers and one Lord of skulls. These combined would over 900 points worth of daemon engines. And the LOS is a great unit to use the strategem daemonforge on.
Defilers with havoc launchers and lascannons and their battle cannon would be able to sit at 48 inches. The LOS can also uses sit at 48 inches with his Hades gratling cannon. The LD makes the LOS 2+ BS, it makes the Defiler 3+ BS. MOP's cursed earth and infernal power makes them reroll 1s to hit and wound, and gives them all 4++. That is by itself a pretty shooty castle which can countercharge and give any closing melee units a bad day. (Nobody wants to be counter charged by a LD, a LOS and 2 defilers lol).
The second best shooty daemon engine I arrived at wasn't the venomcrawler, or the Forgefiend. It was actually the Plague Burst Crawler. These are so efficient in points, and they are so resilient. And they don't need line of sight. Stick a lord to give them reroll 1s, and they will be another great mini castle.
So I envision a list with 7 Daemon engines (1 LOS, 1 LD. 2 defilers and 3 PBC). All of which will stand far back and shoot the heck out of the opponent. The beauty of the list is that it can actually do quite well in melee too. So unlike other shooty lists which fold once dedicated melee get into the back lines, this kind of shooty list can hit back and take on all but the hardest of melee units in a counter charge.
I didn't do the hard math, but I did some trial dice rolls and the long ranged firepower has a pretty decent chance at destroying a Castellan even through its max 4++ save if I get the first turn. So, it passes the "Castellan" test.
Hey my dudes, you guys have been a great help so far, so thanks to ya'll.
I've got 345pts to play with for my Terminator squad, and I'm torn as to how to equip them. Not sure if I should just max out plasma, or go more versatile. They'll be marked Slanesh, have a Sorcerer casting Divine Agonies and Prescience, adding VotLW and EC. I know the combi-flamer isn't exactly ideal for deep striking, but I'm hesitant to put a plasma on the champ, I wont mind overcharging so much on a normal guy, and I have a few spare points.
No. GW has explicitly stated that Death Guard and Thousand Sons are not valid keywords to replace <Legion> with, therefore they cannot take the LD (or any other CSM codex entries for that matter).
No. GW has explicitly stated that Death Guard and Thousand Sons are not valid keywords to replace <Legion> with, therefore they cannot take the LD (or any other CSM codex entries for that matter).
My idea is to bring the 3 PBC as a separate Deathguard spearhead detachment. I didn't say the LD was there to buff the deathguard.
the_Jakman wrote: Hey my dudes, you guys have been a great help so far, so thanks to ya'll.
I've got 345pts to play with for my Terminator squad, and I'm torn as to how to equip them. Not sure if I should just max out plasma, or go more versatile. They'll be marked Slanesh, have a Sorcerer casting Divine Agonies and Prescience, adding VotLW and EC. I know the combi-flamer isn't exactly ideal for deep striking, but I'm hesitant to put a plasma on the champ, I wont mind overcharging so much on a normal guy, and I have a few spare points.
Option 2 Champ w/ combi-flamer, power fist 1x combi-plasma, chain axe 2x autocannon, power fist 6x combi-bolter, chain axe
Cheers for the help again guys.
Honestly, I'd run 5 with plasma and chain axes for 190pts, and spend 155 on something else - that's exactly the price of a squad of Dakka havocs, for example. Drop your buffs on them turn one, they'l be dead by turn 2, when you bring in your termies, who become your favoured buff boys.
Anyway, with Brazen Beasts being psyker-banned, I'll probably run black legion like so. It's actually better though I'm sad I lose my moral wound stratagem meme, but it means I'm going to have to actually learn BLs stratagems .
Pretty obvious what the plan is. Get one of the foot heralds near the bulk enemy, be master builder, give all the engines extra attacks+ such and go to town. Kytan is both a fire magnet and doom broom, 2+ to hit with rerolls from MoP. Too bad I can't really find points for a 3rd venomcrawler. Might see if 2 mauler/3venom better idea.
Are people having any luck running the new devastation battery detach? It seems like the havocs are squishy, as referenced above they likely will die by turn 2, but to get the full benefit looks like a 2CP premium so worthwhile to take more than just 1 or 2 units of qualifying heavy support(?)
I'm currently thinking of a list of 2 alpha legion max chaincannon havoc squads with 1 max lascannon to use the alpha legion to close the distance/ensure they are in cover. With the mandated chaos lord in tow.
Prior math hammer suggest obliterators (max squad refire) are superior and they are also I believe more durable (for example with delightful agonies)...
Danny slag wrote: TLDR, most other armies wouldn't even bat an eye at those combos, they're the norm. So would it really be a problem if chaos had a few good combos?
Danny slag wrote: TLDR, most other armies wouldn't even bat an eye at those combos, they're the norm. So would it really be a problem if chaos had a few good combos?
Removed, Rule #1 please - BrookM
Have to agree. The new CSM codex + vigilus has given chaos quite an amazing depth actually. The different amount of unique and different lists you can field are staggering.
Starting to see the impact of the recent FAQ on pure Imperial Knights lists.
A player at my FLGS was forced to downgrade a Castellan to a Crusader in order to make points. Played him, more lascannon shots getting through, big models going down sooner. It was a very different game.
Most of my Chaos lists have been optimized to kill Knights in a single turn. I've been using MSUCSM spam to force them to waste shots. While it's still early to say, this might be changing...
techsoldaten wrote: Starting to see the impact of the recent FAQ on pure Imperial Knights lists.
A player at my FLGS was forced to downgrade a Castellan to a Crusader in order to make points. Played him, more lascannon shots getting through, big models going down sooner. It was a very different game.
Most of my Chaos lists have been optimized to kill Knights in a single turn. I've been using MSUCSM spam to force them to waste shots. While it's still early to say, this might be changing...
I rekon Medium tanks might make a return, stuff like leman russes, predators maybee, etc might now after the meta has settled and people bring less AT might make a return?
p5freak wrote: No, preds still suck. (Hellforged) contemptor dreads are better in almost every way.
To be fair, when making any chaos list almost any unit you add makes you think "yeah but a contemptor could do this better for less points." They're so damn good.
I'm about to try triple venomcrawlers though.
3 venomcrawlers
Not outstanding, but the only demon engine that can shoot without getting -1 to hit, i wanted to try take advantage of that. They can do damage at range and still mix it up in close combat, pretty versatile.
They're not dead weight in the turns they're moving up the board, or if they need to chill and hold an objective.
MoP with cursed earth and infernal power. Warp Lord warlord trait
Both powers are cool in that they're aura's instead of 'choose one unit.' Because those powers are a pretty big deal for this setup warp lord just makes them a bit more reliable, even if it's not flashy.
Greater Possessed
Obviously for the +1 str, and more damage when they get near the enemy.
Karnak
From a khorne demon detachment i also have, so he has the loci power giving the bunch, except the MoP rerolls to charge. Also gives the group more psychic protection.
It feels like what i'm used to with deathguard, a ball of stuff moving up the board that isn't full on rush and hope to get to melee, or sit back and shoot, but in between. It can contribute damage as it moves up, 4+ saves across the non-characters. And if it get's to the enemy in addition to whatever venomcrawlers are there to charge, the greater possesed and karnak can run up and rip face too.
I realize it's not optimized, basically a trio of contemptor dreadnoughts could do all the same thing, probably better, with less character support or barely more cost. But I'm going to try it anyway because i really like the venomcrawler models.
p5freak wrote: No, preds still suck. (Hellforged) contemptor dreads are better in almost every way.
To be fair, when making any chaos list almost any unit you add makes you think "yeah but a contemptor could do this better for less points." They're so damn good.
I'm about to try triple venomcrawlers though.
3 venomcrawlers
Not outstanding, but the only demon engine that can shoot without getting -1 to hit, i wanted to try take advantage of that. They can do damage at range and still mix it up in close combat, pretty versatile.
They're not dead weight in the turns they're moving up the board, or if they need to chill and hold an objective.
MoP with cursed earth and infernal power. Warp Lord warlord trait
Both powers are cool in that they're aura's instead of 'choose one unit.' Because those powers are a pretty big deal for this setup warp lord just makes them a bit more reliable, even if it's not flashy.
Greater Possessed
Obviously for the +1 str, and more damage when they get near the enemy.
Karnak
From a khorne demon detachment i also have, so he has the loci power giving the bunch, except the MoP rerolls to charge. Also gives the group more psychic protection.
It feels like what i'm used to with deathguard, a ball of stuff moving up the board that isn't full on rush and hope to get to melee, or sit back and shoot, but in between. It can contribute damage as it moves up, 4+ saves across the non-characters. And if it get's to the enemy in addition to whatever venomcrawlers are there to charge, the greater possesed and karnak can run up and rip face too.
I realize it's not optimized, basically a trio of contemptor dreadnoughts could do all the same thing, probably better, with less character support or barely more cost. But I'm going to try it anyway because i really like the venomcrawler models.
I'll be interested to hear how this does. I too love the Venomcrawler and would love a reason to take mine out for a spin. Too bad you can only use Daemonforge once per turn. I also wonder if a Lord Discordant would be worth having for something like this.
What would an all daemon engine list look like in the meta these days? Do most people bring primarily anti-vehicle lists? Are all those anti-Castellean lists suitable for taking on multiple foes that want to punch them in the face?
Gordon Shumway wrote: What would an all daemon engine list look like in the meta these days? Do most people bring primarily anti-vehicle lists? Are all those anti-Castellean lists suitable for taking on multiple foes that want to punch them in the face?
Castellan is no more meta with +100 pts. and max 4+ inv.
Yeah, but the lists take a while to readjust. They will still be there till someone knocks them down. You really think the VC is that good? I would almost be tempted to take a 2nd Slaughter detatchment.
The VC can advance and charge because of the herald of slaanesh, and they get +2 move from the LoDoH WLT. Turn 1 charge is possible. The two LoDoH now get legion traits, so they can also charge after advancing. The blood slaughterers cant charge after advancing. One can, with the stratagem. But i would use that on the kytan.
p5freak wrote: No, preds still suck. (Hellforged) contemptor dreads are better in almost every way.
To be fair, when making any chaos list almost any unit you add makes you think "yeah but a contemptor could do this better for less points." They're so damn good.
I agree with this, and it really pleases me since the models are so darn cool.
The only time I don't think they do it better is vs. lascannon havocs, and that's only because of EC if you -really- needed it. But, on average, I think the contemptor with 4 2+ las shots is better.
I think the 2x Kheres cannon will also be more consistent than a unit of chaincannon havocs excepting in specific niche scenarios. I'd still take the havocs just to double up and have bodies. No reason we can't do both!
mrtomski wrote: What's the best load out for a contemptor? I'm thinking they could actually get into position for a cheap shoot twice with the hellbrute strat.
Can't do that per a FAQ, I believe. Only codex helbrutes, AFAIK.
mrtomski wrote: What's the best load out for a contemptor? I'm thinking they could actually get into position for a cheap shoot twice with the hellbrute strat.
Can't do that per a FAQ, I believe. Only codex helbrutes, AFAIK.
Correct. It is the Helbrute Unit that can use the strat, not the Helbrute keyword.
mrtomski wrote: What's the best load out for a contemptor? I'm thinking they could actually get into position for a cheap shoot twice with the hellbrute strat.
Q: Can a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought, Hellforged Deredeo Dreadnought or a Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought use the Fire Frenzy Stratagem from e.g. Codex: Chaos Space Marines?A: No
pag4 FW forces of chaos FAQ
mrtomski wrote: What's the best load out for a contemptor? I'm thinking they could actually get into position for a cheap shoot twice with the hellbrute strat.
Q: Can a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought, Hellforged Deredeo Dreadnought or a Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought use the Fire Frenzy Stratagem from e.g. Codex: Chaos Space Marines?A: No
pag4 FW forces of chaos FAQ
mrtomski wrote: What's the best load out for a contemptor? I'm thinking they could actually get into position for a cheap shoot twice with the hellbrute strat.
Dont know about the best but I am now testing out twin C-beamer and greater havoc, it is quite good at clearing out the chaff from what ive seen so far, can also bring the hurt to vehicles and high toughness stuff if its far enough away.
So for a normal hellbrute then, whats the best loadout? I'm thinking the twin heavy bolter might be pretty good for the sheer number of shots it can put out with thbe strat
BrianDavion wrote: So for a normal hellbrute then, whats the best loadout? I'm thinking the twin heavy bolter might be pretty good for the sheer number of shots it can put out with thbe strat
For cheap, yeah its good, but my las missile dread has yet to fail me with how cheap it is
mrtomski wrote: What's the best load out for a contemptor? I'm thinking they could actually get into position for a cheap shoot twice with the hellbrute strat.
Dont know about the best but I am now testing out twin C-beamer and greater havoc, it is quite good at clearing out the chaff from what ive seen so far, can also bring the hurt to vehicles and high toughness stuff if its far enough away.
Can contemptors take a Greater Havoc launcher? I thought that was only Deredeos.
BrianDavion wrote: So for a normal hellbrute then, whats the best loadout? I'm thinking the twin heavy bolter might be pretty good for the sheer number of shots it can put out with thbe strat
I really like the las missle hellbrute. 120 so cheap and with strat it can do some real damage
mrtomski wrote: What's the best load out for a contemptor? I'm thinking they could actually get into position for a cheap shoot twice with the hellbrute strat.
Dont know about the best but I am now testing out twin C-beamer and greater havoc, it is quite good at clearing out the chaff from what ive seen so far, can also bring the hurt to vehicles and high toughness stuff if its far enough away.
Can contemptors take a Greater Havoc launcher? I thought that was only Deredeos.
mrtomski wrote: What's the best load out for a contemptor? I'm thinking they could actually get into position for a cheap shoot twice with the hellbrute strat.
Dont know about the best but I am now testing out twin C-beamer and greater havoc, it is quite good at clearing out the chaff from what ive seen so far, can also bring the hurt to vehicles and high toughness stuff if its far enough away.
Can contemptors take a Greater Havoc launcher? I thought that was only Deredeos.
This week’s FAQ updated them to allow it
Pretty sure the FAQ only added Havoc Launcher, not Greater Havoc Launcher?
slave.entity wrote: I'm thinking about running a single indomitable warlord Lord Discordant alongside 3x butcher decimators and a butcher leviathan.
Anyone come up with any fun strategies for running a discolord?
I thought about an count as Darkmech Army:
Heavy support detachment
2Discolords: (320 pts)
3 Dakka defiler (reaper +havoc) (408)
Batallion
2 x Warpsmith (110 pts)
3x10 Cultists (150 pts)
Battalion
1 lord (74 pts)
1 DA -1 to hit prayer. (100pts)
3x 10 Cultists (105 pts)
Which nets me sofar at 1312 pts.
For the lord discordants i thought about unholy fortitude for +1 W and 6+++ i belive. Would pick spitefull altough unsure of it if it applies to the hellstalker aswell or not.
mrtomski wrote: What's the best load out for a contemptor? I'm thinking they could actually get into position for a cheap shoot twice with the hellbrute strat.
Dont know about the best but I am now testing out twin C-beamer and greater havoc, it is quite good at clearing out the chaff from what ive seen so far, can also bring the hurt to vehicles and high toughness stuff if its far enough away.
contemptor cant have the greater havoc launcher only the normal one
slave.entity wrote: I'm thinking about running a single indomitable warlord Lord Discordant alongside 3x butcher decimators and a butcher leviathan.
Anyone come up with any fun strategies for running a discolord?
Four of those are DAEMON units, so a detachment of Daemons could bring some tasty perks:
- Khorne rerolling charges isn’t much use, but Crimson Crown can give more dakka;
- Changeling could give them all a 6+++, and a Daemonspark casting Flickering Flames isn’t bad;
- Nurgle provides extra damage on a 6 to wound, and access to a healing spell;
- Slaanesh’s fast stabbiness isn’t really relevant at all
mrtomski wrote: What's the best load out for a contemptor? I'm thinking they could actually get into position for a cheap shoot twice with the hellbrute strat.
Dont know about the best but I am now testing out twin C-beamer and greater havoc, it is quite good at clearing out the chaff from what ive seen so far, can also bring the hurt to vehicles and high toughness stuff if its far enough away.
Can contemptors take a Greater Havoc launcher? I thought that was only Deredeos.
This week’s FAQ updated them to allow it
Pretty sure the FAQ only added Havoc Launcher, not Greater Havoc Launcher?
yeah it did, was talking to a mate about the doredeo and got the names mixed up.
Hmm. A unit of unmarked BL Oblits could potentially stack VotLW with Flickering Flames and Crimson Crown and Locus of Virulence for a spectacular Endless Cacophony. It’d take a BL detachment (any kind), a Nurgle Daemons detachment (probably a Battalion), and a mixed Daemons detachment (probably Supreme Command with Skullreaver, or perhaps a Battalion with Horrors and a Bletterbomb (and possibly a Skullreaver)).
slave.entity wrote: I'm thinking about running a single indomitable warlord Lord Discordant alongside 3x butcher decimators and a butcher leviathan.
Anyone come up with any fun strategies for running a discolord?
Four of those are DAEMON units, so a detachment of Daemons could bring some tasty perks:
- Khorne rerolling charges isn’t much use, but Crimson Crown can give more dakka;
- Changeling could give them all a 6+++, and a Daemonspark casting Flickering Flames isn’t bad;
- Nurgle provides extra damage on a 6 to wound, and access to a healing spell;
- Slaanesh’s fast stabbiness isn’t really relevant at all
I totally didn't realize the Crimson Crown worked with shooting. That sounds like a worthwhile skullreaver alternative. More value out of butcher shots is always a good thing.
Here's what I've been messing with:
1999pts 9CP
Black Legion Battalion
Abaddon
Lord Discordant, Indomitable, Khorne
3x30 Cultists
Butcher Leviathan
Black Legion Vanguard
Master of Possessions, Cursed Earth, Infernal Power
3x Butcher Decimators, Khorne
Khorne Patrol
DP, Crimson Crown
20x Bloodletters, Banner of Blood
Might try swapping the Khorne patrol with other flavors of support units. Ahriman or Nurgle seem like good picks.
I really think with the prevalence of strong characters and the new slaanesh release, we should be looking towards running our armies like how Ynnari used to run. Use the epitome with cultist or daemon blobs and fiends to lock people in combat, and thunderlords and daemon princes to follow behind and do the heavy lifting. We won't even have to tri tip people anymore to lock them in combat. Is bonkers.
So played my Red Corsairs demon engine list against eldar flyer spam today and got roasted. Was teched for horde and midfield control but eldar flyers (yes, we used the new FAQ) are the rock to my scissors so to speak.
Other than a smash lord, any good anti-flyer units? I can draw Anything from chaos (demons, legions, etc.) but I'm running a bit short on effective ideas. Would love thoughts on solving this problem.
buddha wrote: So played my Red Corsairs demon engine list against eldar flyer spam today and got roasted. Was teched for horde and midfield control but eldar flyers (yes, we used the new FAQ) are the rock to my scissors so to speak.
Other than a smash lord, any good anti-flyer units? I can draw Anything from chaos (demons, legions, etc.) but I'm running a bit short on effective ideas. Would love thoughts on solving this problem.
What were the two lists?
Either way, I'll never not tell you to take a deredeo with butcher array, twin HB and greater havoc launcher. Them and contemptors will make short work of fliers.
There’s shenanigans to be had with Skarbrand and the new Epitome. Buuut if your opponent knows what they’re doing, it’s unreliable gimmickry. Filling the sky with massed medium-high firepower is the old-fashioned solution and probably the best.
buddha wrote: So played my Red Corsairs demon engine list against eldar flyer spam today and got roasted. Was teched for horde and midfield control but eldar flyers (yes, we used the new FAQ) are the rock to my scissors so to speak.
Other than a smash lord, any good anti-flyer units? I can draw Anything from chaos (demons, legions, etc.) but I'm running a bit short on effective ideas. Would love thoughts on solving this problem.
We had a little bit of discussion on this the other day, which lead me to play a test game with double DPoK one with skullreaver and one with the relic 3D sword. They both did massive work and can reliably kill Eldar fliers in 1 round of combat. You need to be smart with your positioning and be careful of leaving your Princes exposed after they've taken out the fliers (because your screens will likely be left behind) but it worked well for me. These DPoK are also just insanely strong in general so they'll do massive work against non-flyer armies too. Together they average about 38 wounds against a Castellan equivalent for 360 points and 2 relics.
I'd say as long as you have 2-3 fast flying combat threats and some decent 2+ BS / anti-flyer shooting (contempor, levi, deredeo) then you have the tools to deal with flyers. I also always bring a ML in one of my CSM squads for the stratagem.
lindsay40k wrote: There’s shenanigans to be had with Skarbrand and the new Epitome. Buuut if your opponent knows what they’re doing, it’s unreliable gimmickry. Filling the sky with massed medium-high firepower is the old-fashioned solution and probably the best.
I don't think it is any less reliable than other options we have. Chaos has plenty of ways to get units up the board and you only need one locked unit to protect your characters. If you run a vanguard of fiends and epitomes, something, somewhere won't be able to get out of combat.
Then, we have some absolutely savage characters. Chainlord, skullreaver prince, the new slaanesh prince / herald, thunderlords, etc. The change to fly in the charge phase will prevent a lot of the tarpitting slowing lists down. The epitome isn't bad, either, when ten str 6 attacks.
This is purely from the perspective of someone who almost exclusively plays ITC, tho
buddha wrote: So played my Red Corsairs demon engine list against eldar flyer spam today and got roasted. Was teched for horde and midfield control but eldar flyers (yes, we used the new FAQ) are the rock to my scissors so to speak.
Other than a smash lord, any good anti-flyer units? I can draw Anything from chaos (demons, legions, etc.) but I'm running a bit short on effective ideas. Would love thoughts on solving this problem.
deredeos are a good answer - the +1 helical targeting array and if you cruise through this thread somehow they are (i think) the best points per model for dakka for the dreads. You may also want to consider a vigilus detach for the rerolls 1s to vechs for wound rolls and bringign some havocs and/or oblits... Or ahriman and friends for smite control with bubble wrap. Hellblades are also a niche use here - dan used these for his LVO list the past year when flyers were super meta.
This is the problem if you were trying to run daemon engines as competitive, there is almost no answer to this type of list with the tools you have.
buddha wrote: So played my Red Corsairs demon engine list against eldar flyer spam today and got roasted. Was teched for horde and midfield control but eldar flyers (yes, we used the new FAQ) are the rock to my scissors so to speak.
Other than a smash lord, any good anti-flyer units? I can draw Anything from chaos (demons, legions, etc.) but I'm running a bit short on effective ideas. Would love thoughts on solving this problem.
deredeos are a good answer - the +1 helical targeting array and if you cruise through this thread somehow they are (i think) the best points per model for dakka for the dreads. You may also want to consider a vigilus detach for the rerolls 1s to vechs for wound rolls and bringign some havocs and/or oblits... Or ahriman and friends for smite control with bubble wrap. Hellblades are also a niche use here - dan used these for his LVO list the past year when flyers were super meta.
This is the problem if you were trying to run daemon engines as competitive, there is almost no answer to this type of list with the tools you have.
Prescience on a bunch of autohavocs? it should do decent enough to bring one thing down atleast.
Alternatively get some hydras in a seperate detachment, they aren't that expensive anymore.
buddha wrote: So played my Red Corsairs demon engine list against eldar flyer spam today and got roasted. Was teched for horde and midfield control but eldar flyers (yes, we used the new FAQ) are the rock to my scissors so to speak.
Other than a smash lord, any good anti-flyer units? I can draw Anything from chaos (demons, legions, etc.) but I'm running a bit short on effective ideas. Would love thoughts on solving this problem.
Chaos Xiphon Interceptor with prescience. It will hit other flyers on 2+ with +1 to hit. Havocs/CSM with RL and prescience and flakk missile. The shooting model gets +2 to hit, and does D3 MW, when it hits. Chainlord with ghorisvex teeth, flames of spite, JP, VOTLW, soultearer portent. 6 attacks, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, +2 to wound, 2MW in addition to normal damage for each 4+ roll to wound. Flawless host DP with dual malefic talons, wings, intoxicating elixir, ultimate confidence, prescience, warpsight plea, 7 attacks, hitting on 2+, rerolling 1s, generating 3 additional attacks for each 4+ to hit.
buddha wrote: So played my Red Corsairs demon engine list against eldar flyer spam today and got roasted. Was teched for horde and midfield control but eldar flyers (yes, we used the new FAQ) are the rock to my scissors so to speak.
Other than a smash lord, any good anti-flyer units? I can draw Anything from chaos (demons, legions, etc.) but I'm running a bit short on effective ideas. Would love thoughts on solving this problem.
Flying Daemon Princes, and Deredeo Dreadnoughts spring to mind.
The Foul Blightspawn (Death Guard unit) is also a tried-and-true Chaos response to flyers. At Strength 2d6, AP-3, and flat 3 damage with the Plague Weapon rule it can easily swat most flyers out of the sky.
lindsay40k wrote: There’s shenanigans to be had with Skarbrand and the new Epitome. Buuut if your opponent knows what they’re doing, it’s unreliable gimmickry. Filling the sky with massed medium-high firepower is the old-fashioned solution and probably the best.
I don't think it is any less reliable than other options we have. Chaos has plenty of ways to get units up the board and you only need one locked unit to protect your characters. If you run a vanguard of fiends and epitomes, something, somewhere won't be able to get out of combat.
Then, we have some absolutely savage characters. Chainlord, skullreaver prince, the new slaanesh prince / herald, thunderlords, etc. The change to fly in the charge phase will prevent a lot of the tarpitting slowing lists down. The epitome isn't bad, either, when ten str 6 attacks.
This is purely from the perspective of someone who almost exclusively plays ITC, tho
I like this a lot better than forgeworld, so thank you! I dislike that 90% of the answers to any 'what should i take" is always forgeworld. They are significantly undercosted and overpowered, so finding solutions in codex always makes me happy. I'll try the skullreaver prince for anti-flyer and see how it do.
Thinking about building an Iron warrior army with warpsmiths and havocs and such. Wanted a Chaos Bastion for fluff and to try out fortifications for the first time. What do ya'll think, are they decent for sitting near an objective and having the havocs sit inside?
x2 Warpsmiths
x3 MSU squads of chaos space marines with plasma
Havocs
obliterators
ect
Forgeworld dreads aren't undercosted or overpowered. You just don't have better options for shooting when you play chaos, mostly. I ran them for a while and any lists built around them were smoked by nurgle plaguebearers lists, pre-nerf Ynnari lists, and knights lists.
I then switched to thousand sons and daemons, and used tzaangor bombs and line of sight to protect characters as I brought them up the board, and it worked a lot better. Not an easy army to play, tho, and not much room for surviving bad dice luck.
It seems like now I can build a list that did what my t sons list did, only better and more easily.
Anyone have a sense for what unit would be the best candidate for tip of the spear? Since it can only be used T1 units like Obliterators etc. that are "typically" deep struck seem ruled out unless in a unique build - even then with a 4 inch move and 24 inch threat range the odds of shooting a juicy target would be low... What are the top candidates for this strat? I've been toying with possessed in a storm eagle but the dakka on the storm eagle is somewhat mediocre...
At the same time - units like leviathan dreads etc. that do decent dakka make strong use of a CL aura already and don't stand out as best tip of the spear candidates - or as clearly better to be alpha legion.
orkswubwub wrote: Anyone have a sense for what unit would be the best candidate for tip of the spear? Since it can only be used T1 units like Obliterators etc. that are "typically" deep struck seem ruled out unless in a unique build - even then with a 4 inch move and 24 inch threat range the odds of shooting a juicy target would be low... What are the top candidates for this strat? I've been toying with possessed in a storm eagle but the dakka on the storm eagle is somewhat mediocre...
At the same time - units like leviathan dreads etc. that do decent dakka make strong use of a CL aura already and don't stand out as best tip of the spear candidates - or as clearly better to be alpha legion.
"Best" candidate for a Stratagem that only works on the unit closest to an enemy unit... shouldn't that usually be the one with the most movement?
Like you said, everyone would love to put it on Obliterators but it's not realistic. Is anyone really going to want a strong shooting unit out front of the rest of the army?
I could see it benefitting a biker squad, a Heldrake, a large Cultist blob, or maybe a Helbrute. They're going to be up-front anyways.
Well premium candidate for me is Fire raptor. Start it next to Apostle and give it -1 to be hit, -1 from Nurgle sorcerer and in your 1st shooting phase reroll all hits.
orkswubwub wrote: Anyone have a sense for what unit would be the best candidate for tip of the spear? Since it can only be used T1 units like Obliterators etc. that are "typically" deep struck seem ruled out unless in a unique build - even then with a 4 inch move and 24 inch threat range the odds of shooting a juicy target would be low... What are the top candidates for this strat? I've been toying with possessed in a storm eagle but the dakka on the storm eagle is somewhat mediocre...
At the same time - units like leviathan dreads etc. that do decent dakka make strong use of a CL aura already and don't stand out as best tip of the spear candidates - or as clearly better to be alpha legion.
"Best" candidate for a Stratagem that only works on the unit closest to an enemy unit... shouldn't that usually be the one with the most movement?
Like you said, everyone would love to put it on Obliterators but it's not realistic. Is anyone really going to want a strong shooting unit out front of the rest of the army?
I could see it benefitting a biker squad, a Heldrake, a large Cultist blob, or maybe a Helbrute. They're going to be up-front anyways.
Well i guess the point is it is possible to control what closest unit we put next to the enemy - and further we don't have to shoot the closest enemy unit - i think the storm eagle gunship is a reasonable example... and its limited to black legion so if you wanted to run your bikers etc. as alpha legion the black legion trait still applies so really good for soup options which is standard in competitive... just looking for other good alternatives..
orkswubwub wrote: Well i guess the point is it is possible to control what closest unit we put next to the enemy - and further we don't have to shoot the closest enemy unit - i think the storm eagle gunship is a reasonable example... and its limited to black legion so if you wanted to run your bikers etc. as alpha legion the black legion trait still applies so really good for soup options which is standard in competitive... just looking for other good alternatives..
Understood.
All I was saying is I question how practical it is to control this aspect of the game. To me, the Stratagem reads as a way to get rerolls for a unit outside Abaddon's aura range. It felt more like something you use when the opportunity comes up rather than a way to choose your forces.
If you wanted to optimize your list around a unit getting rerolls to hit on first turn, a Fire Raptor might be the "best" unit in terms of shot output. A Spartan might be the best in terms of anti-tank, you could split the 8 lascannon shots over 2 vehicles. A Sicaran Venator might be a good unit to look at for killing a Knight or something.
Each of these units has at least 10" movement to get them in front of your main army and would give you plenty of punch. The tanks, however, do have at least 36" range on their guns. It might make more sense to have them just stand near Abaddon.
Anyone have the mathhammer on berzerkers vs possessed? I'm struggling with determining when / where one is better than the other with all the new legion traits and vigilus goodies.
orkswubwub wrote: Anyone have the mathhammer on berzerkers vs possessed? I'm struggling with determining when / where one is better than the other with all the new legion traits and vigilus goodies.
necrotekkie wrote: A lot of my wargame experience has me building my lists in modules.
I've been thinking on what those might be in chaos (minus adding in daemons).
What do you guys think are our strongest combos for specific situations?
Or is our strength in the individual units + stratagems instead of combos of units that get work done?
Since Vigilus Ablaze, I've been building lists for friendly games in a modular fashion. Taking two or three optimized detachments and seeing which one excels.
The ones that have worked best in the widest number of situations for my Black Legion army are:
- Legion of Skulls: 2 units of 30 Bloodletters, a Bloodmaster and Skulltaker. Use Denizens of the Warp to drop them in. Far and away the best in terms of offense, Red Tide is useful when you absolutely need to make that charge.
- Devastation Battery: A Chainlord with Ghorivex's Teeth and 2 units of 2 Obliterators. I only spend CP on the detachment if the Oblits are not deep striking. The Oblits hit so hard, and the Chainlord becomes this huge distraction the moment he starts dishing extra mortal wounds. Takes the heat off Obliterators.
- Soulforged Pack: 3 Maulerfiends and a Lord Dischordant. Infernal Engines and Daemonforge for a massive, terrible strike.
- Abaddon and his shooty Marines: 6 MSU squads of CSM with lascannons + Abaddon. They are there to take out tanks from a distance with full rerolls to hit, then close in on objectives on my side of the board.
- Renegade Knight: Renegade Knight with twin AVCs. Opponents ignore it at their peril, other units on my side take less fire.
So one of my friends is a competitive space wolf player (yes they exist). His latest idea is based on loads of bike characters with storm shields and thunder hammers. The idea being to scout deploy some units into los blocking cover to protect them T1.
Now I'm working on an all comers lost, but I'm wondering how to counter something like this. Best idea I have is hang back and counter charge, but then you give away board control. Is this a situation where a unit like a helldrake might actually be useful?
mrtomski wrote: So one of my friends is a competitive space wolf player (yes they exist). His latest idea is based on loads of bike characters with storm shields and thunder hammers. The idea being to scout deploy some units into los blocking cover to protect them T1.
Now I'm working on an all comers lost, but I'm wondering how to counter something like this. Best idea I have is hang back and counter charge, but then you give away board control. Is this a situation where a unit like a helldrake might actually be useful?
How are SW biker characters supposed to scout deploy?
mrtomski wrote: So one of my friends is a competitive space wolf player (yes they exist). His latest idea is based on loads of bike characters with storm shields and thunder hammers. The idea being to scout deploy some units into los blocking cover to protect them T1.
Now I'm working on an all comers lost, but I'm wondering how to counter something like this. Best idea I have is hang back and counter charge, but then you give away board control. Is this a situation where a unit like a helldrake might actually be useful?
How are SW biker characters supposed to scout deploy?
He's scout deploying the new SM units from vigilus ablaze, the ones which deny DS within 12". He moves the bikes up as normal for a T2 charge
mrtomski wrote: So one of my friends is a competitive space wolf player (yes they exist). His latest idea is based on loads of bike characters with storm shields and thunder hammers. The idea being to scout deploy some units into los blocking cover to protect them T1.
Now I'm working on an all comers lost, but I'm wondering how to counter something like this. Best idea I have is hang back and counter charge, but then you give away board control. Is this a situation where a unit like a helldrake might actually be useful?
How are SW biker characters supposed to scout deploy?
He's scout deploying the new SM units from vigilus ablaze, the ones which deny DS within 12". He moves the bikes up as normal for a T2 charge
Decent sized screens?
Cultists still exist, one or 2 fearless blobs ought to do the trick.
Alternatively one of the renegade chapter traits allows Overwatch on 5+
.
mrtomski wrote: Yeah I'm thinking a big or couple of cultists blobs might be a goo idea. What ways do we have to make them fearless apart from abbadon?
Iron warriors,
Alternative make a R&H detachment, field the blobs with an enforcer that will keep the blob in line but not be as cheesy.
orkswubwub wrote: Anyone have the mathhammer on berzerkers vs possessed? I'm struggling with determining when / where one is better than the other with all the new legion traits and vigilus goodies.
From playing both I agree zerks are typically more preferable. Zerks hit harder as an autonomous unit. Cheaper and more reliable damage.
Possessed can potentially be more productive but they are so cp hungry and very swingy even with reroll number of attacks. They require support and prefer larger unit sizes. And then no S10 fist. The best builds I believe come from flawless host detachment. But again too much support makes them dominate list design. Zerks for me. I will say that possessed are more durable especially to annoying overwatch. Zerks are overall much more efficient and blendy and can eat up enemy cp sometimes for not much gain.
Have you all seen the new teaser video from warhammer community? Seems like Chaos knights are on the way!!! Are we going to get a full renegade/chaos knights codex? Maybe we can get marked knights!!
I'm hopeful for another round of chaos releases. We still havent seen a pretty obvious rumor engine model. Could be renegade knight upgrade kit, sorcerer, and blackstone fortreas renegade guardsmen and rogue psykers.
Or a dark mechanicus with renegade knights rolled in, but that's a long shot
I'm interested to see if we get marks of the gods on the chaos knights. If we do, then there could be some interesting buff synergy. And if there's a way to get Daemon on them, it'll get crazy.
30pts more than a flying DP for more abilities including an absolute bucketload of attacks? Yeah, that’s viable. Likewise 195 for the Contorted Epitome - a 12” moving super frontline support unit. Slaanesh is definitely good right now.
Apsolutly worth it at 210 pts. Thing is a monster that will crush anything it hits while being a terrific support chr as well. Add in some chaos marine stuff like maulerfiends running with it and you have a crazy smash castle that will demand attention.
I can see supporting a MoS demon engine list with a slaanesh demon supreme command of the new combo DP, mirror, and base herald. Super useful all around giving everything in their range advance and charge and they are buffing machines. Very flexible.
So the option to take thunder hammers on bike lords or juggerlords has been removed from battlescribe. What is people's take on taking index codex wargear on index datasheets? If it's a no then can we also not take relics etc on index datasheets?
Abaddon303 wrote: So the option to take thunder hammers on bike lords or juggerlords has been removed from battlescribe. What is people's take on taking index codex wargear on index datasheets? If it's a no then can we also not take relics etc on index datasheets?
I'm sure I'm completely reading things wrong, but my understanding was that if you want to use a model with no Codex entry, you use the Index entry and use any options available. I thought the only time one could mix the Codex and Index was when you wanted to take an Index option that doesn't exist in the Codex (like twin autocannons on a SM Dreadnought) at which point you paid Index pricing.
That being said, I wouldn't have an issue with a Juggerlord holding a Thunder Hammer, I really can't see it being game breaking. Rule of cool etc.
buddha wrote: So played my Red Corsairs demon engine list against eldar flyer spam today and got roasted. Was teched for horde and midfield control but eldar flyers (yes, we used the new FAQ) are the rock to my scissors so to speak.
Other than a smash lord, any good anti-flyer units? I can draw Anything from chaos (demons, legions, etc.) but I'm running a bit short on effective ideas. Would love thoughts on solving this problem.
Others has already made good suggestions.
I've found massed HB Rapier does fine work to wear down flyers.
Abaddon303 wrote: So the option to take thunder hammers on bike lords or juggerlords has been removed from battlescribe. What is people's take on taking index codex wargear on index datasheets? If it's a no then can we also not take relics etc on index datasheets?
I'm sure I'm completely reading things wrong, but my understanding was that if you want to use a model with no Codex entry, you use the Index entry and use any options available. I thought the only time one could mix the Codex and Index was when you wanted to take an Index option that doesn't exist in the Codex (like twin autocannons on a SM Dreadnought) at which point you paid Index pricing.
That being said, I wouldn't have an issue with a Juggerlord holding a Thunder Hammer, I really can't see it being game breaking. Rule of cool etc.
Point of order - a unitbtaken from a Codex can take a loadout permitted in its Index entry, and if the options have a different points cost in the Codex then you pay that price for them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My Juggerlord’s taking twin autocannons and that’s that
Tactics for (how to use) & against (how to counter?)
Cheers!
He's pretty much a glass hammer. He is good because he can warptime himself with pretty much close to 100% success rate if he wants. This lets him move 32" + charge on turn 1. He can also dish out a decent amount of mortal wounds before coming in. When he charges, he has enough punch to open up most anything (will statistically do 18-20 wounds on a castellan just by swinging his weapon). He becomes exceedingly good if you get first turn, due to the absurd amount of buffs that a Thousand Sons army can give him (can give him -1 to be hit, bring his invul save to 3++, give him +2 str and +1 attack, can buff his weapon's ap, give him reroll charges etc).
He is extremely good at killing big tough targets, because of his ability to push a lot of mortal wounds and also swinging with a potential of 8 attacks, str 20, ap -5 and 3 flat damage at ws 2+ rerolling 1's. So, yeah.
He is bad at dealing with hordes because his glaive does not have a sweeping attack profile, like Morty does. He is very bad if your opponent plays first, because he is very frail and will die if the opponent looks at him. He has no way to protect himself if the opponent plays first. No stratagem, no ability, no deepstrike. He just sits and takes the punishment, and he is not very good at it. Anything that could kill 1.5 Hive Tyrant can and will kill Magnus.
So how to play with him? Roll a coin flip. If you win (aka play first), you get to buff your beatstick and stick it to the enemy's face and chop one of his big things, which means you probably win the game. If you lose (aka play second), Magnus will probably die and you will have to play the game with 450 pts less, therefore probably lose.
Abaddon303 wrote: So the option to take thunder hammers on bike lords or juggerlords has been removed from battlescribe. What is people's take on taking index codex wargear on index datasheets? If it's a no then can we also not take relics etc on index datasheets?
Should still be permissible. It's not like the index entry lists every possible bit of wargear the Bike Lord can take, it references you to the charts of what's available. Said chart was updated to include Thunder Hammers.
Abaddon303 wrote: So the option to take thunder hammers on bike lords or juggerlords has been removed from battlescribe. What is people's take on taking index codex wargear on index datasheets? If it's a no then can we also not take relics etc on index datasheets?
Should still be permissible. It's not like the index entry lists every possible bit of wargear the Bike Lord can take, it references you to the charts of what's available. Said chart was updated to include Thunder Hammers.
Its a very important distinction to how some unit entries were written with specific options. Its been clearly stated several times through out the different FAQ, so Thunder Hammers are permissible on the index units unless they have a unit specific list of available options.
Thats how i would read it but for some reason battlescribe doesn't seem to agree anymore. Kind of frustrating because i've just put a thunderhammer on my juggernaut lord and magnetised a thunderhammer arm for my biker lord... O_o
Not saying I agree with it, but maybe they are saying that the codex entries can take weapons allowed under codex weapons. Different codex allows for different weapons...again, not saying I agree with it.
How are we rating our Warlord Traits? My thoughts...
Good
Flames of Spite - 6+ to wound in melee causes 1MW (solid with VotLW or blender DP)
Cold and Bitter (IW) - 6” fearless aura (build a list around this)
Voice of Lorgar (WB) - +3” on innate auras (excellent on backfield Lords, though Armourbane is better if there’s vehicles to shoot at. Aggressive DPs leading DEITY soup rush can make good use of it)
Warp Lord (DK) - reroll 1’s to cast (saves a CRR in almost 2/3 of your turns)
Armourbane* - 6” DB rerolls 1’s to wound vehicle’s aura (excellent synergies with DevBat units, wasted against armies without vehicles)
Master of the Soulforges* - 6” SPDEs +2M aura (probably best on a Warpsmith who’s not eating Lascannons on T1)
Indomitable (BL) - halve incoming damage (your LD can now survive the first turn)
Trusted War-Leader (BL) - refund a strat’s CP on a 5+ (IMO you should always use Council of Traitors to put this on a DA/WS - and Warp Lord on a Sorcerer/MoP)
Ultimate Confidence (FH) - triples the extra attacks from Death to the False Everyone (WOW, take your pick, pull off Prescience and this can be incredible, possibly even a metagame gatekeeper. Someone please do a batrep where a LD with mechaserpents Warptimes into a horde army alongside some Fiends and tables it on the first turn)
Situational
Unholy Fortitude - +1W, 6+++ (ok on a fragile and important support character in smaller games, especially psykers at risk of self owning)
I Am Alpharius (AL) - random CSMWT, pass Warlord to another AL character upon death (pretty cool in Maelstrom, denies Warlord kill, but unreliable buffs that could be utterly useless)
First Among Traitors (BL) - 6” 5+ DttFE aura (good enough against its matchup to be useful when it comes up)
Slaughterborn (WE) - +1S&A each time you kill a character, monster, or titan (it’s not brilliant but it’s not difficult to accommodate)
Devourer of Magic (DK) - +1 DTW, heal 1W on successful DTW (VERY situational, a DP could troll with it though)
The Tip of the Claw* - 6” +2” HR charge aura (pretty high buy-in, but Warp Talons are a hard counter to brutal OW again)
Chosen of the Warmaster* (BL) - 6” BoD Terminators reroll 1’s to hit aura, full rerolls if Lord (best used in huge games where you can have an Abby castle and a deep insertion force)
Veteran Raider (BL) - 6” fall back & charge aura (you can build an outriders around this)
Black-Clad Brute (BL) - inflict D3MW on a 4” when charging (someone had an idea for using this as part of a MW spam list? Sounds gimmicky to me though)
Soul-Eater (BL) - heal D3W whenever you destroy a unit (not as good as Indomitable in most matchups but worth bearing in mind against MSU lists relying on weight of 1W fire)
Reaver Lord (RC) - +1A for each character killed, +1Relic for a RC character (would be borderline bad were not for the RC relic being great in its own right and having tripartite synergy with this and their chapter trait. Would be good were not for it competing with other WTs and RC having a mountain of CP to just buy the relic)
Shattering Truth (Scourged) - an enemy unit within 3” cannot fight until after all other units, or loses first striking ability (can enable pile-ons against glass cannons)
Carve the Runes (BB) - +2S&A each time you kill a character (see WE trait)
Blessed Mission (TP) - reroll 1’s to wound and any damage rolls (Hatred Incarnate, improved by solid synergy with Nurgle relic, plus fringe gimmick of being potentially able to fire a combi-melta into combat and reroll the damage it does, which requires using a strat better used on one of the many Purge gunner units you’ve also taken)
Bad
Eternal Vendetta - reroll wounds against Adeptus Astartes in fight phase (few matchups where this is really good)
Hatred Incarnate - reroll 1’s to Wound (there’s probably some specialist builds that can work this)
Lord of Terror - 6” enemy morale aura (too many hard counters)
Exalted Champion - +1A (just no)
Stimulated by Pain (EC) - +1A per lost wound, caps at 3 (there’s better traits for a warlord than can really leverage this)
Night Haunter’s Curse (NL) - one limited reroll for your Warlord (just budget a CP for it)
Daemonbound Power (DK) - +1S, reroll Force weapon damage (why would you want to rush down with a sorcerer?)
Reader of Fate (DK) - reroll one cast or DTW per game, roll a 6 after casting a power to generate +1CP (far too unreliable to be useful)
Arch-Sorcerer (DK) - know +1 spell (a DP & Sorc give you three anyway)
Infernal Gaze (DK) - +6” Smite (just take some TSons)
Exultant Preacher* - CotD units reroll charges (they’re post-nerf Cultists)
Shepherd of the True Faith* - DR units inflict MW on unmodified 6 to wound in melee (DR have high Str & decent AP anyway, and VotLW won’t boost this)
Agent of Discord*1 - Cypher generates a ‘no CP generation’ aura (Only likely useful against Guilliman lists, and even then you need to bring a load of Fallen and spend a CP and hope they didn’t bring snipers)
Maelstrom of Torment (CS) - 6” -1Ld aura, 9” -2 if you kill a model (Ld attack is easily countered, and having to put your Warlord in the middle of a load of units to leverage it just compounds risk with the gimmickry. MAYBE interesting with Night Lord allies and Butcher brutes and please not Tyranids please not Orks please not IW etc)
* accessible alongside other traits via Field Commander strat
1 it’s near enough to a WT to earn inclusion
Nice Breakdown. It lacks the Renegade warlord traits though. How would you rate them? The Purged WT (re-roll wound rolls of 1, reroll damage of your weapon) is not great overall, but it has nice synergy with the puscleaver-artefact which would be the artefact for a nurgle character anyway.
Since my CSM are/were Nurgle Renegades until the 2.0 codex my go-to choice was unholy fortitude. On a biker-lord, or sorcerer on palanquin or DP it even saves a wound every now and then. It wasn't very impressive, though.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Nice Breakdown. It lacks the Renegade warlord traits though. How would you rate them? The Purged WT (re-roll wound rolls of 1, reroll damage of your weapon) is not great overall, but it has nice synergy with the puscleaver-artefact which would be the artefact for a nurgle character anyway.
Since my CSM are/were Nurgle Renegades until the 2.0 codex my go-to choice was unholy fortitude. On a biker-lord, or sorcerer on palanquin or DP it even saves a wound every now and then. It wasn't very impressive, though.
lindsay40k wrote: How are we rating our Warlord Traits? My thoughts...
Ultimate Confidence (FH) - triples the extra attacks from Death to the False Everyone (WOW, take your pick, pull off Prescience and VotLW and this is incredible, possibly even a metagame gatekeeper. Someone please do a batrep where a LD with mechaserpents Warptimes into a horde army alongside some Fiends and tables it on the first turn)
You've got a typo. Renagade WL traits can't benefit from VotLW unfortunately.
I was underwhelmed by Voice of Lorgar until they changed the way Dark Apostles work to have the prayers, extending the range on them seems pretty useful. I've yet to try it out however...
Abaddon303 wrote: So the option to take thunder hammers on bike lords or juggerlords has been removed from battlescribe. What is people's take on taking index codex wargear on index datasheets? If it's a no then can we also not take relics etc on index datasheets?
Should still be permissible. It's not like the index entry lists every possible bit of wargear the Bike Lord can take, it references you to the charts of what's available. Said chart was updated to include Thunder Hammers.
Its a very important distinction to how some unit entries were written with specific options. Its been clearly stated several times through out the different FAQ, so Thunder Hammers are permissible on the index units unless they have a unit specific list of available options.
Bad call by battlescribe.
I get the logic , but the codex wargear lists replace the index.
Of course persuading them of that once they've made up thier minds is gonna be hard.. bleh
Hold on to your hats people! They just announced at warhammer fest that Chaos are getting a complete chaos knights codex! along with new knight kits,etc. So, new strategems, relics, warlords traits, the works! Chaos armies are going to get even more interesting and have more options now!
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hold on to your hats people! They just announced at warhammer fest that Chaos are getting a complete chaos knights codex! along with new knight kits,etc. So, new strategems, relics, warlords traits, the works! Chaos armies are going to get even more interesting and have more options now!
Honest opinion, i like the models of knights but frankly i would've rather seen a non mirror army for chaos instead....
topaxygouroun i wrote: He has no way to protect himself if the opponent plays first. No stratagem, no ability, no deepstrike. He just sits and takes the punishment, and he is not very good at it. Anything that could kill 1.5 Hive Tyrant can and will kill Magnus.
I basically agree with your assessment, but he is not Titanic and benefits from Prepared Positions, it's not much, really almost nothing since he will generally get shot with AT weapons, but we are nothing if not pedantic on these boards.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hold on to your hats people! They just announced at warhammer fest that Chaos are getting a complete chaos knights codex! along with new knight kits,etc. So, new strategems, relics, warlords traits, the works! Chaos armies are going to get even more interesting and have more options now!
Honest opinion, i like the models of knights but frankly i would've rather seen a non mirror army for chaos instead....
And yet you want renegade Guard, which is basically a chaos mirror of guard. I, for one am personally very excited about the new chaos knights. My own knights are painted in black legion colors even though renegade knights were so much more meh compared to IK when they first came out. I love that now they will be getting a full codex and I absolutely want to get 1 more because I want all those spikes and the new weapons they are gonna have.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hold on to your hats people! They just announced at warhammer fest that Chaos are getting a complete chaos knights codex! along with new knight kits,etc. So, new strategems, relics, warlords traits, the works! Chaos armies are going to get even more interesting and have more options now!
Honest opinion, i like the models of knights but frankly i would've rather seen a non mirror army for chaos instead....
And yet you want renegade Guard, which is basically a chaos mirror of guard. I, for one am personally very excited about the new chaos knights. My own knights are painted in black legion colors even though renegade knights were so much more meh compared to IK when they first came out. I love that now they will be getting a full codex and I absolutely want to get 1 more because I want all those spikes and the new weapons they are gonna have.
If you feel like R&H is just Traitor guard then the only thing i say to this, read the list propperly and be silent. Nothing to add to that, except that i feel older lists regardless of where should have priority above new stuff, especialy because KNights due to their nature are always skew lists and often rather unhealthy for the game overall.
But then again for you R&H = traitor guard so what would you know.
Had anyone figured out a good list for Abbadon yet? He feels so forced in any list I make as having to build around him yet not finding any really good synergy. Thoughts?
buddha wrote: Had anyone figured out a good list for Abbadon yet? He feels so forced in any list I make as having to build around him yet not finding any really good synergy. Thoughts?
Take my inexperienced opinion for what it is, but I feel like Abbadon, however good he is personally, is brought down by the models we have to include to make him worth his points. I really like MSUCSM with chaincannons, and he definitely makes them neat. We could potentially run 3 units of 10 with 2 cannons each, and he can deal with the morale problems that would come up.
But I don't think that's enough. I'd like to see havocs in that detachment as well, which means we might as well make it a devastation battery.
Maybe butcher cannon leviathans/contemptors with him for reliable shooting? Seems ok, but I'd rather have those be Alpha Legion. Also, if I'm bringing a lot of troops, I'd prefer them be Red Corsairs for the CP....
I dont find abaddon a forced unit. He gives extra cp, he himself is a beast in cc, he makes cultists fearless, and he can give rerolls to whatever you put him near. Put a sorcerer next to him to give cultists 5+++ (which they desperately need), give the sorcerer in term armor a warlord trait as well as the angelsbane (that gun is soooo good), and a dark apostle to make the cultists -1 to hit and you have a board control unit that is hard to remove and can be bought back once it does get down on numbers. Yeah, its just over 600 pts for this loadout but once you have it you can do whatever you want for the rest of the army and be fine.
So I've got a pretty general Black Legion army going now with the new releases. I don't want to make my own chaincannons and I don't feel good about buying 4 Havoc boxes or 4 Terminator boxes to get 4 chaincannons/4 chain axes. Should I just go ahead and build my 2 boxes of Havocs with 4 las and 4 auto?
Or would getting 4 boxes of havocs for the chaincannons really be that great?
So how are thunderhammer jump pack captains working out for everyone? World Eaters TH captains seem to be the best. And raptorial host allows them to deepstrike in and still make the charge (with luck).
Anyone tried out a world eaters main army with such a raptorial host of TH captains?
I love berserkers can honestly, I keep trying to make them work in a WE army even though so far, all signs point to such an army not quite being truly competitive. I am starting to feel that the Dark Apostle is overcosted. Its 100 points minimum, 110 if you include the 2 cultists. And basically, we use the dark apostle for its prayer. So you are paying 110 points for one prayer a turn. That's a ton of points to be paying to one buff per turn. To be worth it, the buff has to be amazing, and a quick rule of thumb is that the prayer has to at least buff 3X the number of points. That means the prayer has to buff at least 330 points of stuff.
Furthermore, if you consider warpsight prayer (+1 to hit for a unit). A psyker can cast prescience for the exactg same effect. A standard CSM psyker can cast 2 spells per turn, so the points spent per spell is a lot cheaper than compared to a prayer. For me, the only two prayers that are maybe worth it are the one that gives 5+ invul to all within 6 inches and the one that gives a -1 to hit. And the -1 to hit has to be given to something expensive, like a Kytan Ravager or a Lord of skulls for it to be worth it. Giving it to anything that is just 100 or even 200 points is an inefficient use of points because you are using 110 points to buff just 200.
Even the 5++ aura is iffy. You need to have over 330 points of stuff buffed by that aura to make it worthwhile. 2 squads of Lascannon Havocs or 3 squds of Havocs ass a bare minimum. And it would result in such a huge bunchup around the said dark Apostle. And perhaps the biggest issue with the Dark Apostle is the Vindicare assassin. Its such a good target for those.
The original reroll to hit melee buff is still great, but it was better as a permanent aura. Now, a Dark Apostle cannot get out of a Rhino and then cast a prayer. And that was almost the standard way in how that buff was delivered to the berserkers , who were also in Rhinos. Once the whole thing becomes a footslog army, then the dark apostle suffers because when you come down to it, it only has a movement of 6.
All these constraints leave only very specific circumstances where a Dark Apostle would be "competitive". In a casual environment, I think they are fluffy and fine. But in a competitive environment where every unit has to pull its weight, they are overcosted.
DA are overcosted. They need to be able to do two prayers for 100/110 pts. Another downside is they can't pray while in a transport, or after deepstriking/disembarking.
p5freak wrote: DA are overcosted. They need to be able to do two prayers for 100/110 pts. Another downside is they can't pray while in a transport, or after deepstriking/disembarking.
You pay for the higher reliablity, simple as that.
It is unblockable, always happens atleast at 3+.
Depending on the formation you also don't necessarily need the disciples, a bunch of cultists can do the same.
No way. If I'm paying 100pt points for a single -1 to hit buff @ 3+, I'm sure as hell going to pay an extra 10pts to make it hugely more reliable. Without the disciples, the Dank Apostle is just a CP sink.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So is 110pts worth it? I think it's niche, and only wroth throwing on a Kytan, Fire Raptor, Storm Eagle, Spartan, etc. I like it because it makes these units viable again. I hate it because it's so over-costed.
grouchoben wrote: No way. If I'm paying 100pt points for a single -1 to hit buff @ 3+, I'm sure as hell going to pay an extra 10pts to make it hugely more reliable. Without the disciples, the Dank Apostle is just a CP sink.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So is 110pts worth it? I think it's niche, and only wroth throwing on a Kytan, Fire Raptor, Storm Eagle, Spartan, etc. I like it because it makes these units viable again. I hate it because it's so over-costed.
It’s certainly a hard sell compared to, say, a distraction helbrute.
My medium-term plans include a Nurgle Daemonkin list that will try to use one on some buffed Gnarlmaw Oblits. Lack of EC will probably make it pretty gimmicky, though
grouchoben wrote: No way. If I'm paying 100pt points for a single -1 to hit buff @ 3+, I'm sure as hell going to pay an extra 10pts to make it hugely more reliable. Without the disciples, the Dank Apostle is just a CP sink.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So is 110pts worth it? I think it's niche, and only wroth throwing on a Kytan, Fire Raptor, Storm Eagle, Spartan, etc. I like it because it makes these units viable again. I hate it because it's so over-costed.
Think he's alright. Planning to run one in my 1k Alpha Legion force. Having -2 on my shooty Helbrute should keep him alive a lot longer.
grouchoben wrote: No way. If I'm paying 100pt points for a single -1 to hit buff @ 3+, I'm sure as hell going to pay an extra 10pts to make it hugely more reliable. Without the disciples, the Dank Apostle is just a CP sink.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So is 110pts worth it? I think it's niche, and only wroth throwing on a Kytan, Fire Raptor, Storm Eagle, Spartan, etc. I like it because it makes these units viable again. I hate it because it's so over-costed.
You could also use the special detachment instead and get a cheap battalion with cultists in, so you would get a double use out of it, 2+ (1+ if disciples get involved ) and CP through a battalion with slightly better mAybee even use RC and get a free inferno foliant.
grouchoben wrote: No way. If I'm paying 100pt points for a single -1 to hit buff @ 3+, I'm sure as hell going to pay an extra 10pts to make it hugely more reliable. Without the disciples, the Dank Apostle is just a CP sink.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So is 110pts worth it? I think it's niche, and only wroth throwing on a Kytan, Fire Raptor, Storm Eagle, Spartan, etc. I like it because it makes these units viable again. I hate it because it's so over-costed.
Think he's alright. Planning to run one in my 1k Alpha Legion force. Having -2 on my shooty Helbrute should keep him alive a lot longer.
Right, so that's a good example. Just take a second Hellbrute.
grouchoben wrote: No way. If I'm paying 100pt points for a single -1 to hit buff @ 3+, I'm sure as hell going to pay an extra 10pts to make it hugely more reliable. Without the disciples, the Dank Apostle is just a CP sink.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So is 110pts worth it? I think it's niche, and only wroth throwing on a Kytan, Fire Raptor, Storm Eagle, Spartan, etc. I like it because it makes these units viable again. I hate it because it's so over-costed.
Think he's alright. Planning to run one in my 1k Alpha Legion force. Having -2 on my shooty Helbrute should keep him alive a lot longer.
Right, so that's a good example. Just take a second Hellbrute.
But then I'd need to take another HQ and with the new Helbrute I wouldn't have the points. To fit in that 2nd Helbrute I'd pretty much have to rejig the whole list. As I said though, I think he'll do alright. It'll be good fun.
Eldenfirefly wrote: So how are thunderhammer jump pack captains working out for everyone? World Eaters TH captains seem to be the best. And raptorial host allows them to deepstrike in and still make the charge (with luck).
Anyone tried out a world eaters main army with such a raptorial host of TH captains?
I love berserkers can honestly, I keep trying to make them work in a WE army even though so far, all signs point to such an army not quite being truly competitive. I am starting to feel that the Dark Apostle is overcosted. Its 100 points minimum, 110 if you include the 2 cultists. And basically, we use the dark apostle for its prayer. So you are paying 110 points for one prayer a turn. That's a ton of points to be paying to one buff per turn. To be worth it, the buff has to be amazing, and a quick rule of thumb is that the prayer has to at least buff 3X the number of points. That means the prayer has to buff at least 330 points of stuff.
Furthermore, if you consider warpsight prayer (+1 to hit for a unit). A psyker can cast prescience for the exactg same effect. A standard CSM psyker can cast 2 spells per turn, so the points spent per spell is a lot cheaper than compared to a prayer. For me, the only two prayers that are maybe worth it are the one that gives 5+ invul to all within 6 inches and the one that gives a -1 to hit. And the -1 to hit has to be given to something expensive, like a Kytan Ravager or a Lord of skulls for it to be worth it. Giving it to anything that is just 100 or even 200 points is an inefficient use of points because you are using 110 points to buff just 200.
Even the 5++ aura is iffy. You need to have over 330 points of stuff buffed by that aura to make it worthwhile. 2 squads of Lascannon Havocs or 3 squds of Havocs ass a bare minimum. And it would result in such a huge bunchup around the said dark Apostle. And perhaps the biggest issue with the Dark Apostle is the Vindicare assassin. Its such a good target for those.
The original reroll to hit melee buff is still great, but it was better as a permanent aura. Now, a Dark Apostle cannot get out of a Rhino and then cast a prayer. And that was almost the standard way in how that buff was delivered to the berserkers , who were also in Rhinos. Once the whole thing becomes a footslog army, then the dark apostle suffers because when you come down to it, it only has a movement of 6.
All these constraints leave only very specific circumstances where a Dark Apostle would be "competitive". In a casual environment, I think they are fluffy and fine. But in a competitive environment where every unit has to pull its weight, they are overcosted.
I get the same feeling with bezerkers, they're amazing when the make their charge into something decent but people know what they do and are good at killing off rhinos, screening them away from units they want to protect etc.
I have tried TH lord and 20x warptalons in a WE host raptorial. Honestly they do everything bezerkers do but better. They don't take overwatch, their weapons are more reliable to wound and to bypass armour saves and they are protected from turn 1 shooting. The TH captain is ok not brilliant. Don't think they're a replacement for DP with 2 claws but if you need a jump pack lord they are ok.
Think if you run them with some long range anti infantry to bypass screen they have lots of potential.
Dark apostles are totally worth it, the prayer starts at the start of the battleround. They are a defensive unit. If your going second they are what let your key unit survive your opponents first round of shooting before you can get the rest of your defensive stuff off.
I always take 1, its well worth its points to the black legion. Be it protecting oblits that you want to start on the table t1, or a lord discordant, or that cultist blob you have completly covering the entire front line, they can be key. You just need to have a real use for it.
I've been thinking about using a Dark Apostle in a Flawless Host detachment. Give him the flawless cloak artefact and benediction of darkness. Turn 1 you use benediction to add a bit of protection to, say, a Rhino with some Possessed. The Rhino and your FH blender prince then move off towards the enemy with the DA running along behind. Turn 2, you use 9" dark zealotry to help your Possessed and your DP get those juicy 6s (or 5s for the DP 'cause it really, really likes prescience).
Of course, this assumes you pull off a charge with the DP and his cronies. And that the DA doesn't stumble on his advance. What else could be fun in that Rhino? Add a GP, maybe.
The whole setup is probably a bit on the expensive side, I guess. Could be fun, though.
Could be a lot of fun. Gives me some ideas, i have a bud playing chaos that just got into it that could run that. Little fine tuning that could be an interesting setup....
Snugiraffe wrote: I've been thinking about using a Dark Apostle in a Flawless Host detachment. Give him the flawless cloak artefact and benediction of darkness. Turn 1 you use benediction to add a bit of protection to, say, a Rhino with some Possessed. The Rhino and your FH blender prince then move off towards the enemy with the DA running along behind. Turn 2, you use 9" dark zealotry to help your Possessed and your DP get those juicy 6s (or 5s for the DP 'cause it really, really likes prescience).
Of course, this assumes you pull off a charge with the DP and his cronies. And that the DA doesn't stumble on his advance. What else could be fun in that Rhino? Add a GP, maybe.
The whole setup is probably a bit on the expensive side, I guess. Could be fun, though.
Dark Zealotry is redundant on the DP and doesn’t do that much to Possessed that are also near the DP
Really want some actual Chaos soave marines in my list and have been toying with using 2 or 3 X 6 man squads with rotor cannon and the champion having a standard combi bolter. Ok they are relatively expensive for what you get but having them huddle round abandon and pump out shots re rolling hits isn't too bad. Will also have a blob of cultists out withe them too.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Really want some actual Chaos soave marines in my list and have been toying with using 2 or 3 X 6 man squads with rotor cannon and the champion having a standard combi bolter. Ok they are relatively expensive for what you get but having them huddle round abandon and pump out shots re rolling hits isn't too bad. Will also have a blob of cultists out withe them too.
I have used 2 five man CSM with Reaper Chain cannons and for the points they are pretty great. They are not removing units from the board with ease, like say Oblits, but the extra firepower they add to the rest of your shooting is noticeable. I really like them and will probably bring two in most of my lists.
I'm kind of defaulting to chain msg CSM for my troops now, especially with AL trait. I tend to stick a Combi on the aspiring champ too, for 18 shots in total when static. These guys want to set up early, so I even use the AL Strat occassionally on a pair of them, to start them off in range, in cover, depending on the opponent. Finally, weight of dice means they're still okays on the move. I don't know how I'd feel about them in any other legion though.
grouchoben wrote: I'm kind of defaulting to chain msg CSM for my troops now, especially with AL trait. I tend to stick a Combi on the aspiring champ too, for 18 shots in total when static. These guys want to set up early, so I even use the AL Strat occassionally on a pair of them, to start them off in range, in cover, depending on the opponent. Finally, weight of dice means they're still okays on the move. I don't know how I'd feel about them in any other legion though.
Well AL or RC are the obvious candidates for fielding csm.
RC just has the added recycling shenanigans as a possibility.
Snugiraffe wrote: I've been thinking about using a Dark Apostle in a Flawless Host detachment. Give him the flawless cloak artefact and benediction of darkness. Turn 1 you use benediction to add a bit of protection to, say, a Rhino with some Possessed. The Rhino and your FH blender prince then move off towards the enemy with the DA running along behind. Turn 2, you use 9" dark zealotry to help your Possessed and your DP get those juicy 6s (or 5s for the DP 'cause it really, really likes prescience).
Of course, this assumes you pull off a charge with the DP and his cronies. And that the DA doesn't stumble on his advance. What else could be fun in that Rhino? Add a GP, maybe.
The whole setup is probably a bit on the expensive side, I guess. Could be fun, though.
Dark Zealotry is redundant on the DP and doesn’t do that much to Possessed that are also near the DP
It's not redundant. I don't want it for getting re-rolls just so I can hit - I want the full re-rolls to help me get the 6s (or 5s with prescience) that generate 3 additional attacks. It's redundant for the additional attacks, granted.
I'll also grant you that dark zealotry can easily be substituted with the FH strat if you're looking at the DP alone. It only gets to be decent once there are other units also in the bubble, at which point it can save you 1CP as an added bonus.
Perhaps the Possessed aren't the best choice as cronies for the DP. Perhaps just stuff the Rhino with GPs and some regular CSM (the latter can act as screens or bring a chaincannon or a flamer or something to clear a path to better targets?). Perhaps bring a CC helbrute or two?
Anyone had any success with 10-man warp talon unit in a host raptoris, with a few smash lords along? They offer some pretty unique abilities, although they chew up your CPs something chronic.
grouchoben wrote: Anyone had any success with 10-man warp talon unit in a host raptoris, with a few smash lords along? They offer some pretty unique abilities, although they chew up your CPs something chronic.
They’re not bad. Best used in an army where your gunners are doing the business with auras alone - you can’t really soup them up and also throw around Fire Frenzies & Endless Cacophonies. I prefer to keep them small and use them in conjunction with other units; especially effective as World Eaters with Daemons providing charge reroll auras - which has double synergy, as they can save CP-efficient 20-strong Bloodletter bombs from falling below critical mass to overwatch; makes T’au firebases cry.
Potential synergy with the ability of Skarbrand and various Slaanesh Daemon trickery to prevent enemies falling back.
If you want to deliver them as a death machine with a mass of moving parts, the Skull Altar can make things get really wacky.
What do people think about the hellforge scorpios? 217 points I think, but really nice shooting profile and can target units out of line of sight. If it was 50 points cheaper it take it immediately..
grouchoben wrote: Anyone had any success with 10-man warp talon unit in a host raptoris, with a few smash lords along? They offer some pretty unique abilities, although they chew up your CPs something chronic.
It should be good. You will absolutely smash newbies who don't know how to screen. Against experienced players who know to screen though, then you are going to need stuff that clears screens too. I have found that screen clearing isn't just having lots of s4 or s5 guns. The issue is what if your opponent hides the screens out of line of sight? No point having 80 S4 shots if none of them can see the screens hiding out of line of sight...
grouchoben wrote: Anyone had any success with 10-man warp talon unit in a host raptoris, with a few smash lords along? They offer some pretty unique abilities, although they chew up your CPs something chronic.
It should be good. You will absolutely smash newbies who don't know how to screen. Against experienced players who know to screen though, then you are going to need stuff that clears screens too. I have found that screen clearing isn't just having lots of s4 or s5 guns. The issue is what if your opponent hides the screens out of line of sight? No point having 80 S4 shots if none of them can see the screens hiding out of line of sight...
1) Use your own scouts and hope that you can grab and hold enough area if you know your opponent is too canny to let you deep strike in at the back. This means you need to dip into Nurgle to get Nurgling swarms (which are the only scout type units CSM can have access to).
2) Use guns which can shoot at out of line of sight units. Again, this means you need to dip into deathguard to get say Plague Burst Crawlers because within the CSM codex, such guns don't exist.
3). Have a heavy board control segment of your army. You moveup , take objectives and the midfield, and threaten his entire army line. He has to move up to meet you or risk losing in objectives or allowing you to dictate the flow. If he is forced to move up to meet you, he inevitably is forced to leave gaps behind. If he doesn't, you will control the midfield and you can then have the space to deep strike there even if you don't deep strike at the back. The only problem is that in order to have such a heavy midfield board control army, you need a lot of points devoted into it. You can't just chuck 30 cultists into the midfield and call it a day.
On the positive side. You need to have quite experienced opponents who have suffered from the pain of deepstrike before. Newbies and even players with some games under their belt probably won't be able to screen so intelligently and well.
2) Use guns which can shoot at out of line of sight units. Again, this means you need to dip into deathguard to get say Plague Burst Crawlers because within the CSM codex, such guns don't exist.
Or don't dip into Death Guard by using a Hellforged Deredeo with Greater Havoc Launcher or a Hellforged Scorpius.
2) Use guns which can shoot at out of line of sight units. Again, this means you need to dip into deathguard to get say Plague Burst Crawlers because within the CSM codex, such guns don't exist.
Or don't dip into Death Guard by using a Hellforged Deredeo with Greater Havoc Launcher or a Hellforged Scorpius.
Scorpius, R&H mortar squads (yes they are good enough to actally justify) , or don't field talons because even with the higher charge range and boost through host raptorial they still are overpriced for what they do. Sadly.
Hm hellforge deredeo is armed to the teeth but only has 3d3 s6 -1 1d shots that dont need LOS.
Very comparable in points to the scorpius which can fire twice, but has less wounds, no invun but since it's only weapon doesn't need LOS can probably be hidden all game.
mrtomski wrote: Hm hellforge deredeo is armed to the teeth but only has 3d3 s6 -1 1d shots that dont need LOS.
Very comparable in points to the scorpius which can fire twice, but has less wounds, no invun but since it's only weapon doesn't need LOS can probably be hidden all game.
Anyone have experience of these units?
Scorpious is probably the best CSM tank there is from FW, Deredo is one of the best in turns of Dreds we get.
I think I'm leaning towards the scorpius, despite its lower survivability and BS, the for more non LOS shots and -2 2d given it's mostly going to be shooting stuff in cover, and 2d deals with primaris which I think will only get more popular.
A bit of a shame as I do prefer dreads aesthetically, and with the hellbute key word could have alpha legion for -1hit to make it last even longer.
Without accounting for indirect fire the dreads of all descriptions are better than the Scorpius. Unfortunately it's shooting profile is only really good against 2W infantry. Compare it to Butcher Cannons which are highly versatile and great against pretty much anything.
My question is has anybody run DA with 5++ aura and triple Helbrutes or tanks? I was thinking about which auras could benefit most from Voice of Lorgar and was thinking along the lines of 1x shoot Helbrute, 2x CC Helbrutes and they march up the field with a 5++ and go break stuff. Shooty Helbrute can use Blasphemous Machines where necessary and can get in a good position for Fire Frenzy.
saint_red wrote: Without accounting for indirect fire the dreads of all descriptions are better than the Scorpius. Unfortunately it's shooting profile is only really good against 2W infantry. Compare it to Butcher Cannons which are highly versatile and great against pretty much anything.
My question is has anybody run DA with 5++ aura and triple Helbrutes or tanks? I was thinking about which auras could benefit most from Voice of Lorgar and was thinking along the lines of 1x shoot Helbrute, 2x CC Helbrutes and they march up the field with a 5++ and go break stuff. Shooty Helbrute can use Blasphemous Machines where necessary and can get in a good position for Fire Frenzy.
i guess you would eliminate one of the main weaknesses CSM vehicles have with the 5++ however the "fully within 6" around the DA might become an issue.
Also there's the other prayers which often offer better effects in better units, especially the -1 to hit can be very good on a key unit.
Also the DA is 100 pts.
The DA is cute but really only works to buff one huge thing. I really wish they had given him choice of prayers. I.e. he technically gets 3 (base + God + chosen); if they had let you pick 3 instead I think he would feel good. As it is, he's hard to justify without a kytan or maaaaybe a full unit of oblits
saint_red wrote: Without accounting for indirect fire the dreads of all descriptions are better than the Scorpius. Unfortunately it's shooting profile is only really good against 2W infantry. Compare it to Butcher Cannons which are highly versatile and great against pretty much anything.
My question is has anybody run DA with 5++ aura and triple Helbrutes or tanks? I was thinking about which auras could benefit most from Voice of Lorgar and was thinking along the lines of 1x shoot Helbrute, 2x CC Helbrutes and they march up the field with a 5++ and go break stuff. Shooty Helbrute can use Blasphemous Machines where necessary and can get in a good position for Fire Frenzy.
Butcher cannons are nice for the easy wound roll, but I'm thinking -2ap is going to very useful to counter units in cover. Honestly s6 -2 2d I think is a great weapon.
If you can keep it hidden I cant see it not making its points back most games. When it comes to direct attack I'll personally be mostly relying on getting into cc.
Right now I'm trying to have something in my list which can counter hidden units protecting characters as I know I'll be up against that.
saint_red wrote: Without accounting for indirect fire the dreads of all descriptions are better than the Scorpius. Unfortunately it's shooting profile is only really good against 2W infantry. Compare it to Butcher Cannons which are highly versatile and great against pretty much anything.
My question is has anybody run DA with 5++ aura and triple Helbrutes or tanks? I was thinking about which auras could benefit most from Voice of Lorgar and was thinking along the lines of 1x shoot Helbrute, 2x CC Helbrutes and they march up the field with a 5++ and go break stuff. Shooty Helbrute can use Blasphemous Machines where necessary and can get in a good position for Fire Frenzy.
i guess you would eliminate one of the main weaknesses CSM vehicles have with the 5++ however the "fully within 6" around the DA might become an issue.
Also there's the other prayers which often offer better effects in better units, especially the -1 to hit can be very good on a key unit.
Also the DA is 100 pts.
Well with Voice of Lorgar you are extending that to a 9" bubble which is more than enough coverage. Remember that because of how circle area works you double the buff effect area as you go from 6 - > 9. Then once you get your Helbrutes a bit closer you also have the option of using the re-roll hits buff instead. There's probably an argument to be made that you could just spend the points on something else though. Maybe for triple predators so you can help ensure killshot goes off.
saint_red wrote: Without accounting for indirect fire the dreads of all descriptions are better than the Scorpius. Unfortunately it's shooting profile is only really good against 2W infantry. Compare it to Butcher Cannons which are highly versatile and great against pretty much anything.
My question is has anybody run DA with 5++ aura and triple Helbrutes or tanks? I was thinking about which auras could benefit most from Voice of Lorgar and was thinking along the lines of 1x shoot Helbrute, 2x CC Helbrutes and they march up the field with a 5++ and go break stuff. Shooty Helbrute can use Blasphemous Machines where necessary and can get in a good position for Fire Frenzy.
i guess you would eliminate one of the main weaknesses CSM vehicles have with the 5++ however the "fully within 6" around the DA might become an issue.
Also there's the other prayers which often offer better effects in better units, especially the -1 to hit can be very good on a key unit.
Also the DA is 100 pts.
Well with Voice of Lorgar you are extending that to a 9" bubble which is more than enough coverage. Remember that because of how circle area works you double the buff effect area as you go from 6 - > 9. Then once you get your Helbrutes a bit closer you also have the option of using the re-roll hits buff instead. There's probably an argument to be made that you could just spend the points on something else though. Maybe for triple predators so you can help ensure killshot goes off.
Nope, because voice of lorgar is a waste twofold, a you need to run WB, and B spitefull flames and other wl traits are just so much better.
Literally no idea how to build up my Black legion to 2000 points to build on the shadowspear stuff. Bought 10 cultists for a third cheap troop choice but I don't know what direction I want to go in really to get it to 2000.
The things I want are....
Abby
Terminators
Maybe a forgeworld dread like the leviathan??
Generally thinking of 2 X 6 man CSM squads with chain cannon
Couple of cultist blobs and maybe a dread. Then the hard hitters would be some deep striking termies and oblits??
Rogerio134134 wrote: Literally no idea how to build up my Black legion to 2000 points to build on the shadowspear stuff. Bought 10 cultists for a third cheap troop choice but I don't know what direction I want to go in really to get it to 2000.
The things I want are....
Abby
Terminators
Maybe a forgeworld dread like the leviathan??
Generally thinking of 2 X 6 man CSM squads with chain cannon
Couple of cultist blobs and maybe a dread. Then the hard hitters would be some deep striking termies and oblits??
I myself am working on building up my first 40k army as a result of buying the Shadowspear box. The route I'm taking to filling out a 2000 points list includes converting the included Primaris Marines into Possessed and a unit of ten terminators with an accompanying Terminator Lord. Maybe that's something to consider for you aswell?
Rogerio134134 wrote: Literally no idea how to build up my Black legion to 2000 points to build on the shadowspear stuff. Bought 10 cultists for a third cheap troop choice but I don't know what direction I want to go in really to get it to 2000.
The things I want are....
Abby
Terminators
Maybe a forgeworld dread like the leviathan??
Generally thinking of 2 X 6 man CSM squads with chain cannon
Couple of cultist blobs and maybe a dread. Then the hard hitters would be some deep striking termies and oblits??
So you got a MoP, 2 greater Possessed, 2 Oblits, 5melee marines 5 dakka marines with an AC and a venomcrawler.
That is :
98 pts hq,
65 melee marines
75 dakka marines
230 for Oblits.
Venomcrawler is 130 pts.
598pts.
Ok first things first i'd suggest to build a battalion, in this case we add Abigail for 240 pts and the cultist blob for another 150 pts.
We would be at 988 pts.
I'd replace the melee csm from shadowspear with bolter ones, probably add an AC first cheap allround dakka or a reaper (in this exemple let's go with an AC again so 998pts.
10 combi plas terminators with Chainaxes for that alpha strike shenanigans and for Abby rerolls would cost another 380 pts total so far 1388 pts.
I would suggest maybee a Trio of Lord discordants for 480 pts so now you get a big beatstick so to speak and fire soakers aswell as more use for the MoP, total 1868.
Maybee add another big cultist squad.
Maybee cut the termites down to size and instead bring some decimators to combine with Lord discordants, the one or other defiler might be interesting.
Also since you are not averse to FW consider R&H battalion for CP instead and for fodder, making space and points for your elite csm units.
Generally with Abigail as warlord a battalion and bf you get 10 cp which is not bad. Of course this is just a suggestion alternate takes would probably include the Bl chainsword Lord with jumppack with frontline commander uses to give him spitefull flames aswell as the bl relic chainsword, dp's can also be a nice thing, maybee you go full daemon engine, i don't know but if you prefer the run off the Mill csm then RC is a must have instead.
You could also consider fielding all cult marines once as elite choices for some wierd shenanigans altough not recommended.
Speaking of my own attempts at an atleast somewhat prudent armylist I was wondering if you guys could help me out with some equipment choices:
For my 10 man strong unit of Terminators of Slaanesh I originally thought of going Power Axe and Combi-plasma but since then I've been starting to reconsider if it wouldn't be better to try and save up some points to put into something else. At first I thought that I'd only swap out the Power Axes for Chainaxes but lately I've been wondering if I shouldn't replace the combi-plasmas with combi-bolters aswell. While the combi-plasmas would definitely mean a much more hardhitting squad (especially with a Terminator Lord nearby to reroll all 1s) picking combibolters would save me 90 points.
The other question I had was about the Troop Choice CSM. After reading some of the pages in this thread it's apparent that people like taking Reaper Chaincannons on them. Is this a better weapon option than going plasma gun + combi-plasma for units of 5 models?
I'm going to be using three units of CSM to fill out my Battalion Troop tax.For this purpose I've come up with three different ways to go about them: My first plan was to go with three units of 5 models armed with combi-plasma and plasma gun with a Chaos Lord for the reroll. However, I'm also considering going two plasma units of 5 models and one unit of 10 models with two Reaper Chaincannons and a combi-bolter or possibly 3 units of 5 models armed with combi-bolter and Reaper Chaincannon. No matter what special equipment I decide on the rest of the models will have boltguns.
Good advice cheers chaps, I have converted the csm with closer combat weapons to carry boltguns already. Think my next purchase is going to be some terminators definitely.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Good advice cheers chaps, I have converted the csm with closer combat weapons to carry boltguns already. Think my next purchase is going to be some terminators definitely.
I would consider looking and asking around for combi plas parts then.
Edit also there is only one chainaxe in the box, i just took some khorne Berzerkers ones and modified the power fists with some regular csm chainswords for count as Chainaxes, but that also works because my bunch is a happy go lucky merry Band of Pirates so the chainsword cutlasses make sense.
For those talking about termies and combi weapons, I have had great success with dropping in 10 termies with a lord in termie armor all equipped with combi-plasmas. Mark Slannesh for endless cacophony and drop veterans and watch as you take out 2 major threats in 1 shooting phase.I back them up with berzerkers in a land raider and rhino (depending on the points size, last few games we played 2500) which are a huge threat as well.
If you have abby then cultist blobs are probably better than marines. My list is World Eaters and Alpha Legion and my World eaters rock 2 battalions each with a unit of berzerkers and 2 10 man units of cultists, then a battalion of Alpha where I use space marines (who back up the cultists). I mostly keep the cultist unit small due to moral and they are really just fodder anyway. The Marines do back up the cultist well but marines are mostly just objective holders due to being fairly durable (-1 to hit 12" away b/c Alpha Legion helps with that) and I run them in 3 squads of 6.
I've still got a 10 man unit of old termis with combi-plasma and power axes. They were so much fun to use before the deeps trike and warptime nerfs but now against anybody who knows how to screen it's just not worth it :(
If you are going to take them then you imo a sorcerer is mandatory for Delightful Agonies and Prescience. If you're BL then you can use their strat for re-roll 1s as well. Night Lords are actually a good option here because of the -1 to hit you can get through their stratagem but none of this addresses the problem of 12" optimal range on a slow unit that comes in T2 at the earliest.
here's a thought, if you're running Abby and gonna toss a cultist blob with him, should you go with autoguns, or Auto-Pistols+CCW? I mean guns over knives is useally the better choice but if you're running them in front of an HQ you wanna get into combat anyway....
Autoguns, always. Rapid firing autoguns re-rolling all hits is extremely deadly to chaff in rapid fire range, while still being reasonably effective at 24". Meanwhile, close combat is extremely lethal to cultists (since they get swung at on your turn and the enemy turn, literally taking double damage) so it is never worth it to deal damage that way.
Better to rapid fire the enemy, stay out of combat on your turn, and then get charged by the enemy on the following turn and keep them busy for a while. If you have to rely on charging your cultists to do damage, then half or all of them could die before your turn even ends. Not a good tradeoff.
On the terminator readout, I spent a long time thinking about what was best. In the end I play people who screen so I've dropped them from my list, but I'd argue that if you are thinking combi bolter you should think about bikes instead.
I personally had good results with the cheapest possible terminator squad, ( 4 combi bolters and a reaper autocannon aswell as Chainaxes). I use them actually more as a anti infantry Tool and fire magnet.
The Lifting i leave for other parts of my list.
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slave.entity wrote: Autoguns, always. Rapid firing autoguns re-rolling all hits is extremely deadly to chaff in rapid fire range, while still being reasonably effective at 24". Meanwhile, close combat is extremely lethal to cultists (since they get swung at on your turn and the enemy turn, literally taking double damage) so it is never worth it to deal damage that way.
Better to rapid fire the enemy, stay out of combat on your turn, and then get charged by the enemy on the following turn and keep them busy for a while. If you have to rely on charging your cultists in to do damage, then half or all of them could die before your turn even ends. Not a good tradeoff.
Guns are the way to go for csm cultists indeed, they also make good targets for prescience or other buffs due to the volume of buffed shots.
Sorry for not getting back sooner to the responses, I appreciate them all. Looking over the rules, I think that the Vrosh Tattersoul/Aspiring Champion model is within the rules of CSM, and aesthetically fits well with the new models. I wish there were rules for his knife, not just his axe, but hey, that's life.
As to my CSM army, at the moment, I'm thinking of doing one battalion of Death Guard, one of World Eaters, and one of bloodletters which I intend to deepstrike. With my WE, I'm going be having one unit of berzerkers using mostly unconverted AoS models; just today, I ordered the Aspiring Deathbringer, and will also be getting an Aspiring Deathbringer with Goreaxe and Skullhammer (I'll remove the hammer and replace it with the DG fist bit), the one with the Bloodbite Axe, and some Blood Warriors and possibly some Skullreapers. The Slaughterpriest with the Hackblade is also an option. I don't like the look of the current berzerkers (minus Kharn), and I've heard that not having guns is good for berzerkers as it makes their charges more effective, and charges are is where berzerkers shine.
Regarding Terminators: Death Guard Blightlords pay +8PPM for T5, 4++, 5+++, access to beefier melee weapons, and if you’re buying them Plasma their Legion trait that gives it an 18” double tap. They appeared in competitive lists before the Terminator price cuts, that reach is nicely disruptive to screening plays that assume a 12” threat radius, and their endurance & melee clout makes them a formidable speedbump.
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ArcaneHorror wrote: Sorry for not getting back sooner to the responses, I appreciate them all. Looking over the rules, I think that the Vrosh Tattersoul/Aspiring Champion model is within the rules of CSM, and aesthetically fits well with the new models. I wish there were rules for his knife, not just his axe, but hey, that's life.
As to my CSM army, at the moment, I'm thinking of doing one battalion of Death Guard, one of World Eaters, and one of bloodletters which I intend to deepstrike. With my WE, I'm going be having one unit of berzerkers using mostly unconverted AoS models; just today, I ordered the Aspiring Deathbringer, and will also be getting an Aspiring Deathbringer with Goreaxe and Skullhammer (I'll remove the hammer and replace it with the DG fist bit), the one with the Bloodbite Axe, and some Blood Warriors and possibly some Skullreapers. The Slaughterpriest with the Hackblade is also an option. I don't like the look of the current berzerkers (minus Kharn), and I've heard that not having guns is good for berzerkers as it makes their charges more effective, and charges are is where berzerkers shine.
Spot on, the only ranged attack berserkers should be using is a cheeky frag grenade
Damned shame they dropped the extra chaos backpacks pack. It was perfect for AoS kitbashing :(
Spot on, the only ranged attack berserkers should be using is a cheeky frag grenade
Damned shame they dropped the extra chaos backpacks pack. It was perfect for AoS kitbashing :(
Yeah, that does suck. I was thinking of using possessed backpacks, but to be honest, I personally feel that putting any backpacks on the AoS models might look a bit wonky.
mrtomski wrote: Quick modelling question, are there combi bolters in the new CSM box? Ideally want to get two combi bolter aspiring champs out of each box.
If not... how do people do combi bolters?
There are not. While everything in the kit is beautifully sculpted, it's pathetic how few options it includes.
I made combi-bolters for mine by cutting up two bolt pistols, filing down the sides, gluing them side by side, then re-centering the handle to be in the middle of them. They look closer to a storm bolter than they do a combi-bolter, but i don't think anyone can complain considering there's not even a single combi weapon in the kit.
mrtomski wrote: Quick modelling question, are there combi bolters in the new CSM box? Ideally want to get two combi bolter aspiring champs out of each box.
If not... how do people do combi bolters?
It comes with 5 combi bolters and like 10 unique melee weapons. One of the combi bolters can be a combi plasma or melta. Plus I think It comes with a HF and an auto cannon. I didn't build ether HW though so I am not sure.
mrtomski wrote: Quick modelling question, are there combi bolters in the new CSM box? Ideally want to get two combi bolter aspiring champs out of each box.
If not... how do people do combi bolters?
There are not. While everything in the kit is beautifully sculpted, it's pathetic how few options it includes.
I made combi-bolters for mine by cutting up two bolt pistols, filing down the sides, gluing them side by side, then re-centering the handle to be in the middle of them. They look closer to a storm bolter than they do a combi-bolter, but i don't think anyone can complain considering there's not even a single combi weapon in the kit.
Ineed the models look great but not a lot of options. A lot like the 10 man CSM squad - great models with no options or poseability.
mrtomski wrote: Quick modelling question, are there combi bolters in the new CSM box? Ideally want to get two combi bolter aspiring champs out of each box.
If not... how do people do combi bolters?
There are not. While everything in the kit is beautifully sculpted, it's pathetic how few options it includes.
I made combi-bolters for mine by cutting up two bolt pistols, filing down the sides, gluing them side by side, then re-centering the handle to be in the middle of them. They look closer to a storm bolter than they do a combi-bolter, but i don't think anyone can complain considering there's not even a single combi weapon in the kit.
yeah I've mostly been using stormbolters from a old sternguard set of mine. mildly annoying there's no combi bolters. we could REALLY use a CSM chosen kit
mrtomski wrote: Quick modelling question, are there combi bolters in the new CSM box? Ideally want to get two combi bolter aspiring champs out of each box.
If not... how do people do combi bolters?
There’s a number of approaches I’ve taken:
- converting Terminators into Oblits and retaining the spares
- buying & bartering spare storm bolters from Dark Angels & Space Wolves collectors who’ve built HF, AC, and melee Terminators
- building melee, HF, and reaper Cataphractii & Tartaros Terminators and retaining the spares
- building headswapped Berzerkers dual-wielding bolt pistols and switching the weapons out for bolters (easier with HH or old Heretac bolters that don’t have sculpted hands on the grips), not a wildly popular kit but I love them - and they come with sheathed Swords for WYSIWYG Chosen and look pretty badass running & gunning like Frank Castle
once that happens I might order me some and do up some chosen.
edit: ohh dfouble plus he's in canada so no over the top euro prices yay
If you haven't seen his stuff yet, check it out. I've used his rhino trim kits and they are amazing. Here is his actual website http://thedarkworks.bigcartel.com
once that happens I might order me some and do up some chosen.
edit: ohh dfouble plus he's in canada so no over the top euro prices yay
If you haven't seen his stuff yet, check it out. I've used his rhino trim kits and they are amazing. Here is his actual website http://thedarkworks.bigcartel.com
ohh yeah thats amazing for traitor rhinos! If I wanted to buy anything I'd need to get a paypal account but yeah might be worth figuring it out for this
Hi Guys, in the late months I'm having an horrible time playing against Orks.
I play Black Legion (or Death Guard): different lists but basically possessed, land rider, havocs and obliterators, sometimes berzerkes.
My opponent plays a Big Mek with the relic shokk gun, with which basically he oneshots a unit everytime he shoots, be a land rider, obliterators, PBC and so on... and he shoots twice... and being a character I can't kill him. He plays the index Bike Warboss, with the 4D KillKlaw, attacking again when he dies means that he can easily kill a Knight in a turn with a 99 point model; he plays the bonebreakers which are basically broken and everytime they explode dealing d6 MWs ; and he plays 2x30 boyz which always come back, meaning basically 90 Boyz, which he teleports everywhere with a psyker so full of bonus he cannot fail the cast, and the 9 rerollable charge seldom fails. Adding to all this nonsense, with deathskull he has 6++ everywhere and rerolls a lot of dices, which increase the damage enormously.
I'm one of the best players in my group, I tabled a lot of opponents in the past tournaments, I can easily play against every army... but Orks my God, I have no course of action against them.
kick out the Landraider, the oblits, and the possesed and mix it up with with big cultists screens ( you play BL you will likely field abbadon) consider a Sorc or two for denying, (MoP)
I run my black legion with 30 cultists and 30 chaos marines (a squad of 20 pure bolters and a squad of 10 maxed on plasma) and it works well as my solid center core, so take my advice with a grain of salt...
Having said that vs orks there are 2 ways to deal with them.
1. Out shoot them and make their lives miserable at range, which as you have found can be hard to do at times but is possible with proper screening.
2. Turn their goals into weaknesses. By that i mean use their playstyle against them. Orks for the most part want to be in cc. You know what else wants to be in cc? Beserkers. Possessed. Deamon princes. Cc dreads with scourges. Chaos spawns. We have access to a lot of things that love cc but cant get there, so let the orks da jump in and charge, let them kill a sacrificial lamb of 5 beserkers or possessed or whatever. The other 4 squads of 5 beserkers will looooove it.
Keep in mind the following. 5 beserkers cost 80 pts and get 32 attacks when they charge due to the fight twice rules. Hitting on 3's thats 24 hits, 12 wounds, 10 dead orks for 80 pts? Thats assuming no shinanigans or rerolls. Thats pretty effective. And now they are locked in cc with you, with your support stuff sitting there waiting to get in on the fun.
Thank you for the answers. Unfortunately screening is almost impossible, 30 shoota boyz shoot 60 s4 hits and deal more than 90 attacks in CC... cultist have no chance, and with pile in and consolidate is still easy to engage shooters.
Thank you Azuza, Berzerkers and maybe Possessed seems the only choice, but still the major problem remains: even if I manage to survive and kill 90+ wounds of orks and 32+ wounds of bonebreakers (all with 6++) I'm still massacred by shooting (which I have no way to counter) and stuck in my deployment zone, which means I have no way of winning with objectives.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But still... I know that Orks are not a tournament winning army, nor the meta shakers everybody thought they would have been. So there has to be something that I am missing
Screening still works because it means he has to drop outside of 9" of the screen, rather than the shooting units. Sure, your cultists are going to go poof pretty much immediately when shot, but he has to drop the Boyz in prior to the shooting phase. This means, given proper screen placement, that he's stuck more like 11" or 12" (ideally outside 12" of course) away from your shooters, which is unlikely to be successful even with 'Ere We Go!.
If you're willing to ally in Daemons you could run a Letterbomb or some Horrors to counter-deep strike his Boyz once they've spent themselves on your screen. Or you could summon the Horrors in turn 1 if that's more your cup of tea; they should easily be in range of the enemy given proper placement of the model doing the summoning.
You could go after characters. Both the chain lord and master of execution would be great here. Chain lord lets you jump screens and get to his characters. MoE is a character hunter, but would need to get through any screens. Sounds like that wont be a problem though.
You could also run nurglings. Get them out and be an early screen/deepstrike blockers. He can charge the nurglings and apend his time killing them while you get the counter charge next turn. Or once the nurglings die, shoot the orks off the board
30 shoota boys getting 60 shots is only 20 hits, they hit on 5's. Those 20 shots generate 10 more shots, so maybe 4 extra hits. Then they havs to wound, even if they got above average wounds that is still only like 9 dead, and if you pull from the front it can make their charge distance harder. Finally even if the cultists do die with proper screening the orks that da jumped cant get a charge off now. They still cant charge from outside 12".
If you don't want to use cultists marines are also more effective at survival in this situation.
60 shots at 10 marines = 24 hits. Str 4 vs t4 = 12 wounds. 3+ save means you lose like 6 marines.
Its kinda like that ork super gun you mentioned (cant remember its name atm), i have only ever seen that thing do something amazing once in a game, and i have faced it over a dozen times. That was at a tournament where the owner rolled incredibly well (str rolled was 11, shots rolled was 10, and got 5 hits hitting on 5's) and it one shotted a swarm lord. Normally the gun is crap because it has to roll above str 10 to potentially do mortals and then it actually has to hit to do them. For orks hitting on 5's its not likely.
If your really worried about something put a dark apostle in there with the -1 prayer. There ya go, orks hitting on 6's and are now half as good at shooting.
Azuza once again you are right, I ran the numbers on the Big Mek with relic and he should just be able to kill a rhino, but on practice he did 12 MWs on a PBC once, one shotted a land rider and so on... also -1 to hit is useless cause he pops dakka dakka on 5+. Maybe he's just incredibly lucky and I should try again...
Sure, screens can still be useful, if it just happens to have the 1st turn I'll get more space moving and denying
Are berzerkers worth taking in a non world eater army, where they won't get the +1 attack.
Despite only failure in all my games so far i'm still trying to make my Khorne demonkin army work. I'm using black legion (hounds of abbadon) because their indomitable warlord trait seems to be the only way for a lord discordant to not die first turn. But i'd like to splash in a rhino with berzerkers in addition to all my demon engines and bloodletter bomb.
I think beserkers are better not in world eaters. I would rather get -1 to hit and run them up or advance and charge over that 1 extra attack per guy.
As for popping the strat to hit on 5's with the orks, thats a win if he is going to do that on those units. He can only pop it once per phase and 1 squad of boys (or the big gun) getting it is definitely preferable to what it should be popped on (lootas).
CSM have chain cannons now, a weapon designed to delete orks. An endless cacophony havoc squad with a chaos lord for rerolls kills 33 orks on average and costs 150pts and 2cps. If you want to delete two blobs go votlw and split fire, and you'll kill 44, with the remaining 16 fleeing (can't say I blame them).
As long as you can properly screen and protect them, that one squad will take care of your Boyz problem. Just to reiterate, that's 150pts of easy-to-hide marines killing 420pts of orks in one round of shooting.
Azuza001 wrote: I think beserkers are better not in world eaters. I would rather get -1 to hit and run them up or advance and charge over that 1 extra attack per guy.
As for popping the strat to hit on 5's with the orks, thats a win if he is going to do that on those units. He can only pop it once per phase and 1 squad of boys (or the big gun) getting it is definitely preferable to what it should be popped on (lootas).
Has anyone actually ever considered, Brazen Beasts Berzerkers?
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grouchoben wrote: CSM have chain cannons now, a weapon designed to delete orks. An endless cacophony havoc squad with a chaos lord for rerolls kills 33 orks on average and costs 150pts and 2cps. If you want to delete two blobs go votlw and split fire, and you'll kill 44, with the remaining 16 fleeing (can't say I blame them).
As long as you can properly screen and protect them, that one squad will take care of your Boyz problem. Just to reiterate, that's 150pts of easy-to-hide marines killing 420pts of orks in one round of shooting.
Azuza001 wrote: I think beserkers are better not in world eaters. I would rather get -1 to hit and run them up or advance and charge over that 1 extra attack per guy.
As for popping the strat to hit on 5's with the orks, thats a win if he is going to do that on those units. He can only pop it once per phase and 1 squad of boys (or the big gun) getting it is definitely preferable to what it should be popped on (lootas).
Has anyone actually ever considered, Brazen Beasts Berzerkers?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: CSM have chain cannons now, a weapon designed to delete orks. An endless cacophony havoc squad with a chaos lord for rerolls kills 33 orks on average and costs 150pts and 2cps. If you want to delete two blobs go votlw and split fire, and you'll kill 44, with the remaining 16 fleeing (can't say I blame them).
As long as you can properly screen and protect them, that one squad will take care of your Boyz problem. Just to reiterate, that's 150pts of easy-to-hide marines killing 420pts of orks in one round of shooting.
222pts * the Lord has a price Tag.
although presumably you'll be taking a Lord anyway.
IMHOCSMs, and Black Legion in specific seems highly designed to enchourage a herohammer approuch to list building
True but the REROLL still has a pricetag don't ignore that just because " oh you'll anyway field them" because babysitting squads means that you can0t babysitt others. (depdening on aura size, etc but you get the point'.)
grouchoben you absolutely right, against such broken armies I should use every weapon at my disposal... ofc Deathskull have a *** 6++ so I would kill less
I think berzerkers are quite solid even outside WE, you can buff them with psychic and normally they always overkill, so that attack less is just fine, what they need is mobility via warptime and protection via apostle
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyway I cant ask you to speak in general any longer, let's try to put all together:
Obliterators [18 PL, 345pts]: No Chaos Mark, 3x Obliterator
Automatically Appended Next Post: ofc everything is Slaanesh
I got 5 havocs and 5 Berz in a rhino each, so they are protected and Havocs get that little more mobility I think is needed with Chain cannos... otherwise I could just have them in a ruin, what do you think?
The Indomitable Prince is a beast, with warptime I can go Character hunting and do not worry much about retaliation since he s so protected
Finally the Oblitarator combo is still vital, I need to one shot Battlewagons as soon as possible, since they deal to much damage... the only question is: if I have the SECOND TURN should I DS them or field them? Keep in mind that orks have the mobility to engage them even when screened and the shooting to kill them all in a turn (if I have no 5+++)
it could help me with the autocannon, but with just 24 range chaincannons won't have nothing to to shoot at. Remember that bonebreakers have 12+ 4d6 charge and boyz can get teleported everywhere
Havocs and msu zerkers sharing a rhino is awesome! Drop the havocs, giving them a huge move to get to a good position, then speed forward with 5 nutters in the back. Only problem is how temptimg a target that rhino is if you don't get 1st turn. Best in pairs for redundancy.
And non-WE zerkers are fine imo too. As you say they tend to overkill as it is.
Yes, the Bonebreaker has that absurd combo, sry if I don't explain everything, I just assume you are all knowing pros! Oblits will make short work of them, but my adversary could keep them out of range and destroy my Oblits in a turn, and if I DS I have to wait a turn, which if I have the second might be a huge issue. What should I do if I get second?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah MSU berzerk is interesting, but maybe they dont have much of damage, I'll try to have 9 on them in a rhino and 5x2 chain havocs in the other. That's right, rhino are juicy target, but I have the Apostle with 5++ aura, the possibility to hide them and pop smokes in my turn
Just a suggestion, I know it is not new or sexy, but you can get 3 bikes with 2 flamers and 1 combi-flamer for only 89 points. That is 3d6 flamer shots, 12 combi-bolter shots as well. While you are not bring down the entire mob of orks with that, it seems that these could be used to get the numbers down to something more reasonable, and they are cheap, and easy to hide. Plus any shots wasted on the bikes are shots not going into your better units. Just a thought.
The problem i see with Brazen Beasts is that they're a chapter supposedly built around demon engines, yet in GWs stupidity they FAQed it so you can't take a MoP with them, which seems vital to overcoming the flaws with demon engines. And it's not balanced out by anything because again GW decided CSM legion traits should apply only to infantry, unlike almost every other army except loyalist marines.
That was originally the army i was building until the FAQ, so i switched to Hounds of Abaddon so I could have MoP and the warlord trait that seems to be the only way to keep a Discordant alive. I can't see him living past turn 1 any other way.
For just a bunch of berzerkers though, and if you leave the demon engines at home, that trait does seem pretty cool. Whoever mentioned Red Corsairs though, that advance and charge is an interesting idea, could you get away with not having a rhino for each berzerker squad that way you think?
DarklyDreaming wrote: Yes, the Bonebreaker has that absurd combo, sry if I don't explain everything, I just assume you are all knowing pros! Oblits will make short work of them, but my adversary could keep them out of range and destroy my Oblits in a turn, and if I DS I have to wait a turn, which if I have the second might be a huge issue. What should I do if I get second?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah MSU berzerk is interesting, but maybe they dont have much of damage, I'll try to have 9 on them in a rhino and 5x2 chain havocs in the other. That's right, rhino are juicy target, but I have the Apostle with 5++ aura, the possibility to hide them and pop smokes in my turn
Honestly brother forget the DA. Its mostly a trap unit and theres not much in that list to get return on investment particularly at 1.5k. Same with the rhinos. IMO those are more for 2k. Right now I feel that latest list is short on units/bodies and could use some changes to the firebase.. for example the mixed weaponry and lack of meaningful ranged attacks if you go first. I think that list plays into the ork players strengths more than ours.
Do you play ITC rules and does your group use forgeworld?
Karnij wrote: The problem i see with Brazen Beasts is that they're a chapter supposedly built around demon engines, yet in GWs stupidity they FAQed it so you can't take a MoP with them, which seems vital to overcoming the flaws with demon engines. And it's not balanced out by anything because again GW decided CSM legion traits should apply only to infantry, unlike almost every other army except loyalist marines.
That was originally the army i was building until the FAQ, so i switched to Hounds of Abaddon so I could have MoP and the warlord trait that seems to be the only way to keep a Discordant alive. I can't see him living past turn 1 any other way.
For just a bunch of berzerkers though, and if you leave the demon engines at home, that trait does seem pretty cool. Whoever mentioned Red Corsairs though, that advance and charge is an interesting idea, could you get away with not having a rhino for each berzerker squad that way you think?
I mean the Lord discordant still exists but it makes neither lore wise sense (you need a Psyker for possesion and or daemonforging) nor gamewise. Best case would've been a exception to the MoP instead of this no psykers at all rule but i guess the daemonkin and daemonforge army can't field psykers.
or they secure their deamon engines from the dark mechanicus instead of making their own or they simply use other ways, masters of posession are more focused on making possessed etc, it's warp smiths billed as the deamon engine crafters
BrianDavion wrote: or they secure their deamon engines from the dark mechanicus instead of making their own or they simply use other ways, masters of posession are more focused on making possessed etc, it's warp smiths billed as the deamon engine crafters
Problem is they are supposed to be a daemonkin and daemonengine army, 1 of which can be bought only for a price.
I'm wondering if there's a way to take additional warlord traits that i'm missing. I know field commander, but with that you have to take warlord traits specific to specialist detachments right? Or Council of Traitors, but that's just lord/sorc/apostle?
I'm attempting to find a way to take a warlord trait on my newly build chainlord, flames of spite obviously, while still being able to keep indomitable on my lord discordant. I'm pretty sure there's no way to do this, but with so much content spread across a few books i'm not sure if i missed something.
Greetings everyone. Long time lurker, first time poster on this thread. Looking for advice on my list. I have a grudge vs a Knight player because I have yet to beat him. We are going to do an ITC game. LGS meta has everything. I prefer TAC lists. I feel my list has a good core to win. The question is what kind of detachment do i add for the 3rd, and what to use the final points on. Im open to anything chaos has access to. Right now i have a renegade knight, a lot of death guard and many more 1ksons. 1. Spend 5 CP at the battle start to deep strike all khrone into his face.2. Plaguebearers protect the rest of the army. 3. ???? 4. Profit.
Ahriman on Disc of Tzeentch [9 PL, 166pts]: Death Hex, Temporal Manipulation, Weaver of Fates
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [9 PL, 183pts]: Diabolic Strength, Malefic talon [10pts], Warp bolter [3pts], Warptime, Wings [1 PL, 24pts]
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [9 PL, 183pts]: Glamour of Tzeentch, Helm of the Third Eye, Malefic talon [10pts], Treason of Tzeentch, Warp bolter [3pts], Wings [1 PL, 24pts]
And non-WE zerkers are fine imo too. As you say they tend to overkill as it is.
Red Corsair zerkers are bonkers. The advance + charge more than makes up for the lost attacks.
Turn one charges are quite doable with Warptime and a couple of CP reserved to maximising Advances.
Could deploy a full squad of 20 in a FW transport for an extra 3” reach. If it’s a Spartan, a DA giving it -1 to be hit could make it an interesting fire magnet; opponent assumes you’re going to WT it T1 for a T2 disembark & charge, assumes their screens are out of reach T1 and that knocking it down a few tiers of movement is doable enough to aim for. Even if they kill it, the zerks still gain 3” as they climb out.
Could be especially nice with Slaaneshi Daemon support; throw some Fiends in there and all it takes is for a single one of them to tag-team with a single Berzerker and they’re immune to almost all shooting in the enemy turn. If the enemy don’t charge them with a beatstick unit, counter-offensive could really pile up the skulls.
Go lascannon heavy? Seems like such a unit would definitely get fire focused though. But we can't choose to bring a havoc unit with say 2 lascannons and 2 bolters because you have to bring heavy weapons.
Equipping a Havoc with a heavy bolter to make it abalative wound seems ... less efficient. So I really can't decide how I want to equip my Havocs. Just go all out reaper cannons? lascannons for max efficiency or have some heavy bolters or autocannons to increase the :abalative wounds" on a Havoc unit.
This kinda assumes I am running Abaddon of course. Because I feel that Abaddon goes really well with Havocs since they can move and shoot.
Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: 5. Trusted War-leader, Bolt pistol, Council of Traitors, Delightful Agonies, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh, Prescience
+ Heavy Support +
Havocs [7 PL, 153pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
4x Havoc w/ reaper chaincannon: 4x Reaper chaincannon
Havocs [7 PL, 153pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
4x Havoc w/ reaper chaincannon: 4x Reaper chaincannon
Obliterators [18 PL, 345pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator
DA is ok imho, his defensive buffs can really help, and unlike psykers you are sure the power s gonna come off. I know other lasers could help, but LR and Predators will be tied up or destroyed in a turn... what should I take in, what should I take out?
On my suggestion my game group plays CA and I strictly forbid FW
Go lascannon heavy? Seems like such a unit would definitely get fire focused though. But we can't choose to bring a havoc unit with say 2 lascannons and 2 bolters because you have to bring heavy weapons.
Equipping a Havoc with a heavy bolter to make it abalative wound seems ... less efficient. So I really can't decide how I want to equip my Havocs. Just go all out reaper cannons? lascannons for max efficiency or have some heavy bolters or autocannons to increase the :abalative wounds" on a Havoc unit.
This kinda assumes I am running Abaddon of course. Because I feel that Abaddon goes really well with Havocs since they can move and shoot.
I mean it depends massively, the thing is, the only ablative wound we can get for Havocs is the champion. (for some reason...... Thank you GW)
Lascannon heavy is something you can always consider, you don't lose through moving the unit out of cover or LoS blocking terrain and with abigail in the mix granting you full rerolls to hit it is frankly a goot anti tank unit.
Point is, if you have enough anti infantry or Anti tank, that kinda dictates what you equip them.
(or you go middle way give out AC's and profit from stratagems)
ChaosPriest1939 wrote: Greetings everyone. Long time lurker, first time poster on this thread. Looking for advice on my list. I have a grudge vs a Knight player because I have yet to beat him. We are going to do an ITC game. LGS meta has everything. I prefer TAC lists. I feel my list has a good core to win. The question is what kind of detachment do i add for the 3rd, and what to use the final points on. Im open to anything chaos has access to. Right now i have a renegade knight, a lot of death guard and many more 1ksons. 1. Spend 5 CP at the battle start to deep strike all khrone into his face.2. Plaguebearers protect the rest of the army. 3. ???? 4. Profit.
Knights weaknesses are melee and psychic powers. Get a chainlord (search this thread), use a flawless host daemon prince with intoxicating elixir (search this thread), more tsons psykers for smite spam, remove their inv with death hex, use treason of tzeentch (which only works with LD debuffs). Use 30 cultists with +2 to wound and +1 to hit (with a chaos lord to re-roll 1s) to shoot the knight with mass autogun fire. Use 30 pink horrors with flickering flames, herald of tzeentch and boon of change to shoot the knight. A tzeentch daemon prince lets them re-roll 1s. And the daemonspark WLT lets them re-roll 1s to wound.
Or ignore the knights and play for points. Use lots of models with obsec to control the board, and deny your opponent objective markers. Kill his obsec infantry.
Thank you very much p5freakMade, I appreciate it. I will check out that video. Thankfully ive been lurking here since the start of 8th and I am familiar with those units. Time to go to the local game store!
Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: 5. Trusted War-leader, Bolt pistol, Council of Traitors, Delightful Agonies, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh, Prescience
+ Heavy Support +
Havocs [7 PL, 153pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
4x Havoc w/ reaper chaincannon: 4x Reaper chaincannon
Havocs [7 PL, 153pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
4x Havoc w/ reaper chaincannon: 4x Reaper chaincannon
Obliterators [18 PL, 345pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator
DA is ok imho, his defensive buffs can really help, and unlike psykers you are sure the power s gonna come off. I know other lasers could help, but LR and Predators will be tied up or destroyed in a turn... what should I take in, what should I take out?
On my suggestion my game group plays CA and I strictly forbid FW
Sorry man not my intent. Orks are strong at lower levels is maybe what I should have said. Getting ready for a trip so I'll just post some quick thoughts in the abstract..
Idk what your local meta is but if its hordes then reaper cc is the obvious choice. IMO most TAC lists want a mix of targets for cacophony so you can plan for going 1st or 2nd and reach key targets. This to me says reaper cc havocs, las havocs, oblits. I wouldn't look to handle orks in assault. Rather shoot, screen, shoot counter assault. If orks were giving me problems I'd look to a few counters like these and just off the top of my head:
Screens/anti-assault:
alpha legion- fwd ops- one large unit for board control to push back early assaults. Cultists target gretchin to reduce grot shield impact..
death guard- nurglings- if you don't want to dip into AL. foul BS.
anti horde:
CSM- chain havocs: prescience/votlw/chaos lord.. guaranteed one dead boyz a round maybe two list depending. BC arrays (deredeo, leviathan).
death guard- supporating plate.
xeen wrote: Just a suggestion, I know it is not new or sexy, but you can get 3 bikes with 2 flamers and 1 combi-flamer for only 89 points. That is 3d6 flamer shots, 12 combi-bolter shots as well. While you are not bring down the entire mob of orks with that, it seems that these could be used to get the numbers down to something more reasonable, and they are cheap, and easy to hide. Plus any shots wasted on the bikes are shots not going into your better units. Just a thought.
I'm actually quite liking this for alpha legion, I know you have to get within 8" for cooking, but seems like a nice harassment unit.
Karnij wrote: The problem i see with Brazen Beasts is that they're a chapter supposedly built around demon engines, yet in GWs stupidity they FAQed it so you can't take a MoP with them, which seems vital to overcoming the flaws with demon engines. And it's not balanced out by anything because again GW decided CSM legion traits should apply only to infantry, unlike almost every other army except loyalist marines.
That was originally the army i was building until the FAQ, so i switched to Hounds of Abaddon so I could have MoP and the warlord trait that seems to be the only way to keep a Discordant alive. I can't see him living past turn 1 any other way.
For just a bunch of berzerkers though, and if you leave the demon engines at home, that trait does seem pretty cool. Whoever mentioned Red Corsairs though, that advance and charge is an interesting idea, could you get away with not having a rhino for each berzerker squad that way you think?
I mean the Lord discordant still exists but it makes neither lore wise sense (you need a Psyker for possesion and or daemonforging) nor gamewise. Best case would've been a exception to the MoP instead of this no psykers at all rule but i guess the daemonkin and daemonforge army can't field psykers.
True that.
What doesn't make lore sense is that a being of pure warp apparently 'hates the warp.' Who's building all those khorne demon engines and binding the demons to them then?
The whole "khorne hates warp" is some of the dumbest lore in the game and seems to be a holdover from 'psychers shoot fireballs and khorne likes to hit things." They really should have made an exception to the MoP for khorne armies. That model even looks very Khornish.
You're right the DIscordant is a little awkward. From a gameplay standpoint i really wish he had 8-9 wounds.
What doesn't make lore sense is that a being of pure warp apparently 'hates the warp.' Who's building all those khorne demon engines and binding the demons to them then?
The whole "khorne hates warp" is some of the dumbest lore in the game and seems to be a holdover from 'psychers shoot fireballs and khorne likes to hit things." They really should have made an exception to the MoP for khorne armies. That model even looks very Khornish.
You're right the DIscordant is a little awkward. From a gameplay standpoint i really wish he had 8-9 wounds.
I mean khorne hates sorcery not warp.
As for the LoD, it is a great unit tbh, going great with a slew of legions and renegade warbands, is fast, deadly and comparatively cheap for what it offers. Problem is that you need 2-3 to force the enemy to split up fire and that is about 10-25% off a 2000 pts list. (Not that it is a terrible ammount of points spent, but you still need CP and some screens imo) Also for a propper daemonlist, the regular Codex does not really give us a small enough daemon engine to get the numbers necessary (Decimators though with LoD support)
It also does not help that Dreds and other regular CSM vehicles suffer when around the dude.
For a single lord discordant running it with the indomitable trait is really, really good.
Run it as Slaanesh with intoxicating elixir to boost its attacks to S8/S9 and watch it just eat up bullets. Mine ate like 3 volcano lances, got charged by a gallant, and soaked up a bunch of other heavy weapons fire the first time I ran it. It's too deadly and fast to ignore and it's really hard to kill efficiently with the trait. Great unit.
slave.entity wrote: For a single lord discordant running it with the indomitable trait is really, really good.
Run it as Slaanesh with intoxicating elixir to boost its attacks to S8/S9 and watch it just eat up bullets. Mine ate like 3 volcano lances, got charged by a gallant, and soaked up a bunch of other heavy weapons fire the first time I ran it. It's too deadly and fast to ignore and it's really hard to kill efficiently with the trait. Great unit.
i at one point was tempted to run a AL lord discordant with the trait that improves W and grants a 6+++, mostly for annoying people.
Had few games at 1k this weekend. With my chaos going 4-0-0. played against eldar, dark angels and a 2v2 against IK+DA vs. Orks+My chaos. "friendly" games with Castellan in one list, teleporting Gorkanauts, Eldar list with 2 ravagers dizzy cannons, two squads of harlequin jetpikes with haywire and a hemlock going all over the place and DA plasma castle.
My takes so far from "newish chaos". Havocs are glasscannon and should be treated such, hide them in deployment. T5 without ablatives are just crap. But in one game I single shotted the castellan T1 with two twin las helbrutes and las havocs squad with endless cacophony, even with rotated shields. Although after EC I threw 6,6,5 on the damage roll. Castellan also died horribly against orks, when his screening failed and Gorkanaut teleported and charged it T1. Recycling the red corsair chaos marines squad with two reaper chaincannons was fun and effective. At 1,5k I think I'll pull two 15-20 man squads with two RCC and three plasma in the other blob. RC advance and charge proved great to have in all of the games. Lord discordant was supprisingly survival in melee and minor shooting, but none can withstand a overcharged, weapons of the dark age plasma cannon devastator volley. Anyways I'm still excited and chaos is fun to play. I think I used endless cacophony more times on my reaper chaos marine squad two throw 32 heavy bolter shots rather than on my havocs. *I hate eldar stratagem denial, totally forgot it in one game and deployed for punishing volley.. to just getting suprised my pants down."
If interested, this friendly all-comers list I used:
Spoiler:
1000 points - 11 CP total Red corsairs batallion - devastation battery (-1cp)
mrtomski wrote: Hi guys, I'm buying up my army now, happy with my unit selections more or less. But one thing I'm still stuck on before I start painting everything.
Black legion or Alpha Legion?
Please help...
Bl got some good toys, allround decent, abbadon, and some nice equipement.
AL got also some nice equipment, profits from -1 to hit >12" away, making them 1/6th more durable at these ranges (in combination with the new bolter beta rule something nice)
(has also some hillarious stackable capacity f.e. when you throw down a miasma spell for an additional -1 to hit, hillariously also for the i am alpharius trait
EDIT: the most annoying durable PA unit is in AL , considering you can field plague marines as an elite choice.)
We would also need to see your unit selection as to determine which trait would be fitting better.
AL is a better gunline army. A better small-squad army. Better at fielding a strong centre-piece dread like a Lev (can get to -3 to hit, meaning if you keep him out of melee he'll be alive til the end of the game). They have the best havocs and dreads. They play like a SM legion, good troops that are fairly tough. If you can leverage the minus to hit, and stack it on key units, then they are the most competitive CSM faction, probably.
BL is a better hero-hammer army, with insane access to multiple traits and unique relics. BL is a better horde army, with large units getting multiple buffs, and fearless. BL is a more accurate army, with Abby's top-shelf rerolls. They have the best lord discordants and chaos lords and cultist blobs, and the warmaster himseld, who is one of those rare units that combines an amazing model, amazing rules, amazing fluff and an affordable price point. If you don't like him, don't go BL, basically.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "AL got also some nice equipment, profits from -1 to hit >12" away, making them 1/6th more durable at these ranges"
- Oh yeah, and this isn't true. -1 to hit against guard is not at all 1/6 reduction in damage, it's 1/3.
12 shots at 4+ gives 6 hits, 12 at 5+ gives 4. The difference between taking 6 and 4 hits is 33.3%, not 16.6%.
Similarly, the big thing about this is its combination with other negatives. Dark apostle and nurgle buffs can turn any of your key infantry or dreads -3. At that point your unit can't really be hurt efficiently enough to bother with.
Sorry man not my intent. Orks are strong at lower levels is maybe what I should have said. Getting ready for a trip so I'll just post some quick thoughts in the abstract..
Idk what your local meta is but if its hordes then reaper cc is the obvious choice. IMO most TAC lists want a mix of targets for cacophony so you can plan for going 1st or 2nd and reach key targets. This to me says reaper cc havocs, las havocs, oblits. I wouldn't look to handle orks in assault. Rather shoot, screen, shoot counter assault. If orks were giving me problems I'd look to a few counters like these and just off the top of my head:
Screens/anti-assault:
alpha legion- fwd ops- one large unit for board control to push back early assaults. Cultists target gretchin to reduce grot shield impact..
death guard- nurglings- if you don't want to dip into AL. foul BS.
anti horde:
CSM- chain havocs: prescience/votlw/chaos lord.. guaranteed one dead boyz a round maybe two list depending. BC arrays (deredeo, leviathan).
death guard- supporating plate.
counter assault:
CSM- msu zerks, chain lord, DP.
I'll check back later. GL
Great advice, that is basically what I am aiming for: having the cultist and rhino to buy me time, then to use havocs and berzerkers as hammer; Second round the Oblits will basically oneshot 2 vehicles and then as final resource I got the Prince who is really though... my feeling is that I am still missing a lot of units, I got so few wounds compared to Orks, but I find no way to optimize further. I got a game against orks again on Tuesday, fingers crossed.
xeen wrote: Just a suggestion, I know it is not new or sexy, but you can get 3 bikes with 2 flamers and 1 combi-flamer for only 89 points. That is 3d6 flamer shots, 12 combi-bolter shots as well. While you are not bring down the entire mob of orks with that, it seems that these could be used to get the numbers down to something more reasonable, and they are cheap, and easy to hide. Plus any shots wasted on the bikes are shots not going into your better units. Just a thought.
Just to add to this, bikes are one of the most annoying movement blocking units around. They auto advance for a 20" move. 3 of these spaced 2" apart is more then enough to pen in a bonecrusha. Don't forget screening isn't always something you do passively with chaf. I see so many players that gloss over the movement phase. It's the phase that comes first every turn, and like every other edition of 40k, you can exploit the crap out of that against certain armies.
xeen wrote: Just a suggestion, I know it is not new or sexy, but you can get 3 bikes with 2 flamers and 1 combi-flamer for only 89 points. That is 3d6 flamer shots, 12 combi-bolter shots as well. While you are not bring down the entire mob of orks with that, it seems that these could be used to get the numbers down to something more reasonable, and they are cheap, and easy to hide. Plus any shots wasted on the bikes are shots not going into your better units. Just a thought.
Just to add to this, bikes are one of the most annoying movement blocking units around. They auto advance for a 20" move. 3 of these spaced 2" apart is more then enough to pen in a bonecrusha. Don't forget screening isn't always something you do passively with chaf. I see so many players that gloss over the movement phase. It's the phase that comes first every turn, and like every other edition of 40k, you can exploit the crap out of that against certain armies.
Sadly melee bikers aren't all that hot and the models are meh.
Altough i am a firm beliver in a Khorne berzerker on a bike.
You dont have to charge to block. Actually you won't want to.
Move up 1" away then stop. During their movement phase they have to go around as movement happens before shooting. This can effectively stop an entire flanks advancement up the board. I did something like this in a tournament game a few months ago, using a few rhinos to block a defiler and the 20 cultists around it into a corner. Took them 2 turns to kill the rhinos and then turn 3 finally start moving, but by then it didnt matter because of what happened during those 2 turns.
Is there any place where I can find the 40K rules and point value for the Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut? It's such an awesome model, yet it has nothing in the new CSM codex and the Chaos Index seems to be out of print.
xeen wrote: Just a suggestion, I know it is not new or sexy, but you can get 3 bikes with 2 flamers and 1 combi-flamer for only 89 points. That is 3d6 flamer shots, 12 combi-bolter shots as well. While you are not bring down the entire mob of orks with that, it seems that these could be used to get the numbers down to something more reasonable, and they are cheap, and easy to hide. Plus any shots wasted on the bikes are shots not going into your better units. Just a thought.
Just to add to this, bikes are one of the most annoying movement blocking units around. They auto advance for a 20" move. 3 of these spaced 2" apart is more then enough to pen in a bonecrusha. Don't forget screening isn't always something you do passively with chaf. I see so many players that gloss over the movement phase. It's the phase that comes first every turn, and like every other edition of 40k, you can exploit the crap out of that against certain armies.
Sadly melee bikers aren't all that hot and the models are meh.
Altough i am a firm beliver in a Khorne berzerker on a bike.
Who said anything about melee? You can literally just park 1.1" away and absolutely bone their next turns movement.
xeen wrote: Just a suggestion, I know it is not new or sexy, but you can get 3 bikes with 2 flamers and 1 combi-flamer for only 89 points. That is 3d6 flamer shots, 12 combi-bolter shots as well. While you are not bring down the entire mob of orks with that, it seems that these could be used to get the numbers down to something more reasonable, and they are cheap, and easy to hide. Plus any shots wasted on the bikes are shots not going into your better units. Just a thought.
Just to add to this, bikes are one of the most annoying movement blocking units around. They auto advance for a 20" move. 3 of these spaced 2" apart is more then enough to pen in a bonecrusha. Don't forget screening isn't always something you do passively with chaf. I see so many players that gloss over the movement phase. It's the phase that comes first every turn, and like every other edition of 40k, you can exploit the crap out of that against certain armies.
Sadly melee bikers aren't all that hot and the models are meh.
Altough i am a firm beliver in a Khorne berzerker on a bike.
Who said anything about melee? You can literally just park 1.1" away and absolutely bone their next turns movement.
Thank you, i know that, point was to point out that it is just sad that they suck so hard in melee for a unit that kinda is supposed to be there.
It's like the recycled 
