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Razerous wrote:
Can I get the low down on Magnus the Red.

Why is he good

What is he good at?

How tough is he to kill?

Tactics for (how to use) & against (how to counter?)

Cheers!

He's pretty much a glass hammer. He is good because he can warptime himself with pretty much close to 100% success rate if he wants. This lets him move 32" + charge on turn 1. He can also dish out a decent amount of mortal wounds before coming in. When he charges, he has enough punch to open up most anything (will statistically do 18-20 wounds on a castellan just by swinging his weapon). He becomes exceedingly good if you get first turn, due to the absurd amount of buffs that a Thousand Sons army can give him (can give him -1 to be hit, bring his invul save to 3++, give him +2 str and +1 attack, can buff his weapon's ap, give him reroll charges etc).

He is extremely good at killing big tough targets, because of his ability to push a lot of mortal wounds and also swinging with a potential of 8 attacks, str 20, ap -5 and 3 flat damage at ws 2+ rerolling 1's. So, yeah.

He is bad at dealing with hordes because his glaive does not have a sweeping attack profile, like Morty does. He is very bad if your opponent plays first, because he is very frail and will die if the opponent looks at him. He has no way to protect himself if the opponent plays first. No stratagem, no ability, no deepstrike. He just sits and takes the punishment, and he is not very good at it. Anything that could kill 1.5 Hive Tyrant can and will kill Magnus.

So how to play with him? Roll a coin flip. If you win (aka play first), you get to buff your beatstick and stick it to the enemy's face and chop one of his big things, which means you probably win the game. If you lose (aka play second), Magnus will probably die and you will have to play the game with 450 pts less, therefore probably lose.

 lindsay40k wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My Juggerlord’s taking twin autocannons and that’s that

I think I missed something here

Abaddon303 wrote:
So the option to take thunder hammers on bike lords or juggerlords has been removed from battlescribe. What is people's take on taking index codex wargear on index datasheets? If it's a no then can we also not take relics etc on index datasheets?

Should still be permissible. It's not like the index entry lists every possible bit of wargear the Bike Lord can take, it references you to the charts of what's available. Said chart was updated to include Thunder Hammers.

Sokhar wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
So the option to take thunder hammers on bike lords or juggerlords has been removed from battlescribe. What is people's take on taking index codex wargear on index datasheets? If it's a no then can we also not take relics etc on index datasheets?

Should still be permissible. It's not like the index entry lists every possible bit of wargear the Bike Lord can take, it references you to the charts of what's available. Said chart was updated to include Thunder Hammers.

Its a very important distinction to how some unit entries were written with specific options. Its been clearly stated several times through out the different FAQ, so Thunder Hammers are permissible on the index units unless they have a unit specific list of available options.

Thats how i would read it but for some reason battlescribe doesn't seem to agree anymore. Kind of frustrating because i've just put a thunderhammer on my juggernaut lord and magnetised a thunderhammer arm for my biker lord... O_o

Not saying I agree with it, but maybe they are saying that the codex entries can take weapons allowed under codex weapons. Different codex allows for different weapons...again, not saying I agree with it.

How are we rating our Warlord Traits? My thoughts...

Good
Flames of Spite - 6+ to wound in melee causes 1MW (solid with VotLW or blender DP)
Cold and Bitter (IW) - 6” fearless aura (build a list around this)
Voice of Lorgar (WB) - +3” on innate auras (excellent on backfield Lords, though Armourbane is better if there’s vehicles to shoot at. Aggressive DPs leading DEITY soup rush can make good use of it)
Warp Lord (DK) - reroll 1’s to cast (saves a CRR in almost 2/3 of your turns)
Armourbane* - 6” DB rerolls 1’s to wound vehicle’s aura (excellent synergies with DevBat units, wasted against armies without vehicles)
Master of the Soulforges* - 6” SP DEs +2M aura (probably best on a Warpsmith who’s not eating Lascannons on T1)
Indomitable (BL) - halve incoming damage (your LD can now survive the first turn)
Trusted War-Leader (BL) - refund a strat’s CP on a 5+ (IMO you should always use Council of Traitors to put this on a DA/WS - and Warp Lord on a Sorcerer/MoP)
Ultimate Confidence (FH) - triples the extra attacks from Death to the False Everyone (WOW, take your pick, pull off Prescience and this can be incredible, possibly even a metagame gatekeeper. Someone please do a batrep where a LD with mechaserpents Warptimes into a horde army alongside some Fiends and tables it on the first turn)

Situational
Unholy Fortitude - +1W, 6+++ (ok on a fragile and important support character in smaller games, especially psykers at risk of self owning)
I Am Alpharius (AL) - random CSM WT, pass Warlord to another AL character upon death (pretty cool in Maelstrom, denies Warlord kill, but unreliable buffs that could be utterly useless)
First Among Traitors (BL) - 6” 5+ DttFE aura (good enough against its matchup to be useful when it comes up)
Slaughterborn (WE) - +1S&A each time you kill a character, monster, or titan (it’s not brilliant but it’s not difficult to accommodate)
Devourer of Magic (DK) - +1 DTW, heal 1W on successful DTW (VERY situational, a DP could troll with it though)
The Tip of the Claw* - 6” +2” HR charge aura (pretty high buy-in, but Warp Talons are a hard counter to brutal OW again)
Chosen of the Warmaster* (BL) - 6” BoD Terminators reroll 1’s to hit aura, full rerolls if Lord (best used in huge games where you can have an Abby castle and a deep insertion force)
Veteran Raider (BL) - 6” fall back & charge aura (you can build an outriders around this)
Black-Clad Brute (BL) - inflict D3MW on a 4” when charging (someone had an idea for using this as part of a MW spam list? Sounds gimmicky to me though)
Soul-Eater (BL) - heal D3W whenever you destroy a unit (not as good as Indomitable in most matchups but worth bearing in mind against MSU lists relying on weight of 1W fire)
Reaver Lord (RC) - +1A for each character killed, +1Relic for a RC character (would be borderline bad were not for the RC relic being great in its own right and having tripartite synergy with this and their chapter trait. Would be good were not for it competing with other WTs and RC having a mountain of CP to just buy the relic)
Shattering Truth (Scourged) - an enemy unit within 3” cannot fight until after all other units, or loses first striking ability (can enable pile-ons against glass cannons)
Carve the Runes (BB) - +2S&A each time you kill a character (see WE trait)
Blessed Mission (TP) - reroll 1’s to wound and any damage rolls (Hatred Incarnate, improved by solid synergy with Nurgle relic, plus fringe gimmick of being potentially able to fire a combi-melta into combat and reroll the damage it does, which requires using a strat better used on one of the many Purge gunner units you’ve also taken)

Bad
Eternal Vendetta - reroll wounds against Adeptus Astartes in fight phase (few matchups where this is really good)
Hatred Incarnate - reroll 1’s to Wound (there’s probably some specialist builds that can work this)
Lord of Terror - 6” enemy morale aura (too many hard counters)
Exalted Champion - +1A (just no)
Stimulated by Pain (EC) - +1A per lost wound, caps at 3 (there’s better traits for a warlord than can really leverage this)
Night Haunter’s Curse (NL) - one limited reroll for your Warlord (just budget a CP for it)
Daemonbound Power (DK) - +1S, reroll Force weapon damage (why would you want to rush down with a sorcerer?)
Reader of Fate (DK) - reroll one cast or DTW per game, roll a 6 after casting a power to generate +1CP (far too unreliable to be useful)
Arch-Sorcerer (DK) - know +1 spell (a DP & Sorc give you three anyway)
Infernal Gaze (DK) - +6” Smite (just take some TSons)
Exultant Preacher* - CotD units reroll charges (they’re post-nerf Cultists)
Shepherd of the True Faith* - DR units inflict MW on unmodified 6 to wound in melee (DR have high Str & decent AP anyway, and VotLW won’t boost this)
Agent of Discord*1 - Cypher generates a ‘no CP generation’ aura (Only likely useful against Guilliman lists, and even then you need to bring a load of Fallen and spend a CP and hope they didn’t bring snipers)
Maelstrom of Torment (CS) - 6” -1Ld aura, 9” -2 if you kill a model (Ld attack is easily countered, and having to put your Warlord in the middle of a load of units to leverage it just compounds risk with the gimmickry. MAYBE interesting with Night Lord allies and Butcher brutes and please not Tyranids please not Orks please not IW etc)

* accessible alongside other traits via Field Commander strat
1 it’s near enough to a WT to earn inclusion

Nice Breakdown. It lacks the Renegade warlord traits though. How would you rate them? The Purged WT (re-roll wound rolls of 1, reroll damage of your weapon) is not great overall, but it has nice synergy with the puscleaver-artefact which would be the artefact for a nurgle character anyway.

Since my CSM are/were Nurgle Renegades until the 2.0 codex my go-to choice was unholy fortitude. On a biker-lord, or sorcerer on palanquin or DP it even saves a wound every now and then. It wasn't very impressive, though.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Nice Breakdown. It lacks the Renegade warlord traits though. How would you rate them? The Purged WT (re-roll wound rolls of 1, reroll damage of your weapon) is not great overall, but it has nice synergy with the puscleaver-artefact which would be the artefact for a nurgle character anyway.

Since my CSM are/were Nurgle Renegades until the 2.0 codex my go-to choice was unholy fortitude. On a biker-lord, or sorcerer on palanquin or DP it even saves a wound every now and then. It wasn't very impressive, though.

Will add Renegades presently, good catch


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Done

 lindsay40k wrote:
How are we rating our Warlord Traits? My thoughts...

Ultimate Confidence (FH) - triples the extra attacks from Death to the False Everyone (WOW, take your pick, pull off Prescience and VotLW and this is incredible, possibly even a metagame gatekeeper. Someone please do a batrep where a LD with mechaserpents Warptimes into a horde army alongside some Fiends and tables it on the first turn)

You've got a typo. Renagade WL traits can't benefit from VotLW unfortunately.

Also important, all non RC traits are stuck with a certain mark, that can be rather unfortunate for stratagems....

I was underwhelmed by Voice of Lorgar until they changed the way Dark Apostles work to have the prayers, extending the range on them seems pretty useful. I've yet to try it out however...

 aka_mythos wrote:

Sokhar wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
So the option to take thunder hammers on bike lords or juggerlords has been removed from battlescribe. What is people's take on taking index codex wargear on index datasheets? If it's a no then can we also not take relics etc on index datasheets?

Should still be permissible. It's not like the index entry lists every possible bit of wargear the Bike Lord can take, it references you to the charts of what's available. Said chart was updated to include Thunder Hammers.

Its a very important distinction to how some unit entries were written with specific options. Its been clearly stated several times through out the different FAQ, so Thunder Hammers are permissible on the index units unless they have a unit specific list of available options.

Bad call by battlescribe.
I get the logic , but the codex wargear lists replace the index.
Of course persuading them of that once they've made up thier minds is gonna be hard.. bleh

Hold on to your hats people! They just announced at warhammer fest that Chaos are getting a complete chaos knights codex! along with new knight kits,etc. So, new strategems, relics, warlords traits, the works! Chaos armies are going to get even more interesting and have more options now!

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hold on to your hats people! They just announced at warhammer fest that Chaos are getting a complete chaos knights codex! along with new knight kits,etc. So, new strategems, relics, warlords traits, the works! Chaos armies are going to get even more interesting and have more options now!

Honest opinion, i like the models of knights but frankly i would've rather seen a non mirror army for chaos instead....

topaxygouroun i wrote:
He has no way to protect himself if the opponent plays first. No stratagem, no ability, no deepstrike. He just sits and takes the punishment, and he is not very good at it. Anything that could kill 1.5 Hive Tyrant can and will kill Magnus.

I basically agree with your assessment, but he is not Titanic and benefits from Prepared Positions, it's not much, really almost nothing since he will generally get shot with AT weapons, but we are nothing if not pedantic on these boards.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hold on to your hats people! They just announced at warhammer fest that Chaos are getting a complete chaos knights codex! along with new knight kits,etc. So, new strategems, relics, warlords traits, the works! Chaos armies are going to get even more interesting and have more options now!

Honest opinion, i like the models of knights but frankly i would've rather seen a non mirror army for chaos instead....

And yet you want renegade Guard, which is basically a chaos mirror of guard. I, for one am personally very excited about the new chaos knights. My own knights are painted in black legion colors even though renegade knights were so much more meh compared to IK when they first came out. I love that now they will be getting a full codex and I absolutely want to get 1 more because I want all those spikes and the new weapons they are gonna have.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hold on to your hats people! They just announced at warhammer fest that Chaos are getting a complete chaos knights codex! along with new knight kits,etc. So, new strategems, relics, warlords traits, the works! Chaos armies are going to get even more interesting and have more options now!

Honest opinion, i like the models of knights but frankly i would've rather seen a non mirror army for chaos instead....

And yet you want renegade Guard, which is basically a chaos mirror of guard. I, for one am personally very excited about the new chaos knights. My own knights are painted in black legion colors even though renegade knights were so much more meh compared to IK when they first came out. I love that now they will be getting a full codex and I absolutely want to get 1 more because I want all those spikes and the new weapons they are gonna have.

If you feel like R&H is just Traitor guard then the only thing i say to this, read the list propperly and be silent. Nothing to add to that, except that i feel older lists regardless of where should have priority above new stuff, especialy because KNights due to their nature are always skew lists and often rather unhealthy for the game overall.
But then again for you R&H = traitor guard so what would you know.

Had anyone figured out a good list for Abbadon yet? He feels so forced in any list I make as having to build around him yet not finding any really good synergy. Thoughts?

 buddha wrote:
Had anyone figured out a good list for Abbadon yet? He feels so forced in any list I make as having to build around him yet not finding any really good synergy. Thoughts?

Take my inexperienced opinion for what it is, but I feel like Abbadon, however good he is personally, is brought down by the models we have to include to make him worth his points. I really like MSU CSM with chaincannons, and he definitely makes them neat. We could potentially run 3 units of 10 with 2 cannons each, and he can deal with the morale problems that would come up.

But I don't think that's enough. I'd like to see havocs in that detachment as well, which means we might as well make it a devastation battery.

Maybe butcher cannon leviathans/contemptors with him for reliable shooting? Seems ok, but I'd rather have those be Alpha Legion. Also, if I'm bringing a lot of troops, I'd prefer them be Red Corsairs for the CP....

So I dunno.

I dont find abaddon a forced unit. He gives extra cp, he himself is a beast in cc, he makes cultists fearless, and he can give rerolls to whatever you put him near. Put a sorcerer next to him to give cultists 5+++ (which they desperately need), give the sorcerer in term armor a warlord trait as well as the angelsbane (that gun is soooo good), and a dark apostle to make the cultists -1 to hit and you have a board control unit that is hard to remove and can be bought back once it does get down on numbers. Yeah, its just over 600 pts for this loadout but once you have it you can do whatever you want for the rest of the army and be fine.

So I've got a pretty general Black Legion army going now with the new releases. I don't want to make my own chaincannons and I don't feel good about buying 4 Havoc boxes or 4 Terminator boxes to get 4 chaincannons/4 chain axes. Should I just go ahead and build my 2 boxes of Havocs with 4 las and 4 auto?

Or would getting 4 boxes of havocs for the chaincannons really be that great?

I find chain cannons best in 5 man chaos space marine squads. Cheap and can be super effective.

In havocs its either las or autocannons imho. I prefer auto, but that's more of a fluff personal choice and not a tactical one.

So how are thunderhammer jump pack captains working out for everyone? World Eaters TH captains seem to be the best. And raptorial host allows them to deepstrike in and still make the charge (with luck).

Anyone tried out a world eaters main army with such a raptorial host of TH captains?

I love berserkers can honestly, I keep trying to make them work in a WE army even though so far, all signs point to such an army not quite being truly competitive. I am starting to feel that the Dark Apostle is overcosted. Its 100 points minimum, 110 if you include the 2 cultists. And basically, we use the dark apostle for its prayer. So you are paying 110 points for one prayer a turn. That's a ton of points to be paying to one buff per turn. To be worth it, the buff has to be amazing, and a quick rule of thumb is that the prayer has to at least buff 3X the number of points. That means the prayer has to buff at least 330 points of stuff.

Furthermore, if you consider warpsight prayer (+1 to hit for a unit). A psyker can cast prescience for the exactg same effect. A standard CSM psyker can cast 2 spells per turn, so the points spent per spell is a lot cheaper than compared to a prayer. For me, the only two prayers that are maybe worth it are the one that gives 5+ invul to all within 6 inches and the one that gives a -1 to hit. And the -1 to hit has to be given to something expensive, like a Kytan Ravager or a Lord of skulls for it to be worth it. Giving it to anything that is just 100 or even 200 points is an inefficient use of points because you are using 110 points to buff just 200.

Even the 5++ aura is iffy. You need to have over 330 points of stuff buffed by that aura to make it worthwhile. 2 squads of Lascannon Havocs or 3 squds of Havocs ass a bare minimum. And it would result in such a huge bunchup around the said dark Apostle. And perhaps the biggest issue with the Dark Apostle is the Vindicare assassin. Its such a good target for those.

The original reroll to hit melee buff is still great, but it was better as a permanent aura. Now, a Dark Apostle cannot get out of a Rhino and then cast a prayer. And that was almost the standard way in how that buff was delivered to the berserkers , who were also in Rhinos. Once the whole thing becomes a footslog army, then the dark apostle suffers because when you come down to it, it only has a movement of 6.

All these constraints leave only very specific circumstances where a Dark Apostle would be "competitive". In a casual environment, I think they are fluffy and fine. But in a competitive environment where every unit has to pull its weight, they are overcosted.

I really wish they had given DAs two of the new prayers. That being said oblits arent a bad target. Alpha legion + DA makes them very tough to crack.

DA are overcosted. They need to be able to do two prayers for 100/110 pts. Another downside is they can't pray while in a transport, or after deepstriking/disembarking.

 p5freak wrote:
DA are overcosted. They need to be able to do two prayers for 100/110 pts. Another downside is they can't pray while in a transport, or after deepstriking/disembarking.

You pay for the higher reliablity, simple as that.
It is unblockable, always happens atleast at 3+.
Depending on the formation you also don't necessarily need the disciples, a bunch of cultists can do the same.

No way. If I'm paying 100pt points for a single -1 to hit buff @ 3+, I'm sure as hell going to pay an extra 10pts to make it hugely more reliable. Without the disciples, the Dank Apostle is just a CP sink.


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So is 110pts worth it? I think it's niche, and only wroth throwing on a Kytan, Fire Raptor, Storm Eagle, Spartan, etc. I like it because it makes these units viable again. I hate it because it's so over-costed.

 grouchoben wrote:
No way. If I'm paying 100pt points for a single -1 to hit buff @ 3+, I'm sure as hell going to pay an extra 10pts to make it hugely more reliable. Without the disciples, the Dank Apostle is just a CP sink.


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So is 110pts worth it? I think it's niche, and only wroth throwing on a Kytan, Fire Raptor, Storm Eagle, Spartan, etc. I like it because it makes these units viable again. I hate it because it's so over-costed.

It’s certainly a hard sell compared to, say, a distraction helbrute.

My medium-term plans include a Nurgle Daemonkin list that will try to use one on some buffed Gnarlmaw Oblits. Lack of EC will probably make it pretty gimmicky, though

 grouchoben wrote:
No way. If I'm paying 100pt points for a single -1 to hit buff @ 3+, I'm sure as hell going to pay an extra 10pts to make it hugely more reliable. Without the disciples, the Dank Apostle is just a CP sink.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So is 110pts worth it? I think it's niche, and only wroth throwing on a Kytan, Fire Raptor, Storm Eagle, Spartan, etc. I like it because it makes these units viable again. I hate it because it's so over-costed.

Think he's alright. Planning to run one in my 1k Alpha Legion force. Having -2 on my shooty Helbrute should keep him alive a lot longer.