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Forgeworld dreads aren't undercosted or overpowered. You just don't have better options for shooting when you play chaos, mostly. I ran them for a while and any lists built around them were smoked by nurgle plaguebearers lists, pre-nerf Ynnari lists, and knights lists.

I then switched to thousand sons and daemons, and used tzaangor bombs and line of sight to protect characters as I brought them up the board, and it worked a lot better. Not an easy army to play, tho, and not much room for surviving bad dice luck.

It seems like now I can build a list that did what my t sons list did, only better and more easily.

Anyone have a sense for what unit would be the best candidate for tip of the spear? Since it can only be used T1 units like Obliterators etc. that are "typically" deep struck seem ruled out unless in a unique build - even then with a 4 inch move and 24 inch threat range the odds of shooting a juicy target would be low... What are the top candidates for this strat? I've been toying with possessed in a storm eagle but the dakka on the storm eagle is somewhat mediocre...

At the same time - units like leviathan dreads etc. that do decent dakka make strong use of a CL aura already and don't stand out as best tip of the spear candidates - or as clearly better to be alpha legion.

orkswubwub wrote:
Anyone have a sense for what unit would be the best candidate for tip of the spear? Since it can only be used T1 units like Obliterators etc. that are "typically" deep struck seem ruled out unless in a unique build - even then with a 4 inch move and 24 inch threat range the odds of shooting a juicy target would be low... What are the top candidates for this strat? I've been toying with possessed in a storm eagle but the dakka on the storm eagle is somewhat mediocre...

At the same time - units like leviathan dreads etc. that do decent dakka make strong use of a CL aura already and don't stand out as best tip of the spear candidates - or as clearly better to be alpha legion.

"Best" candidate for a Stratagem that only works on the unit closest to an enemy unit... shouldn't that usually be the one with the most movement?

Like you said, everyone would love to put it on Obliterators but it's not realistic. Is anyone really going to want a strong shooting unit out front of the rest of the army?

I could see it benefitting a biker squad, a Heldrake, a large Cultist blob, or maybe a Helbrute. They're going to be up-front anyways.

Well premium candidate for me is Fire raptor. Start it next to Apostle and give it -1 to be hit, -1 from Nurgle sorcerer and in your 1st shooting phase reroll all hits.

 techsoldaten wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:
Anyone have a sense for what unit would be the best candidate for tip of the spear? Since it can only be used T1 units like Obliterators etc. that are "typically" deep struck seem ruled out unless in a unique build - even then with a 4 inch move and 24 inch threat range the odds of shooting a juicy target would be low... What are the top candidates for this strat? I've been toying with possessed in a storm eagle but the dakka on the storm eagle is somewhat mediocre...

At the same time - units like leviathan dreads etc. that do decent dakka make strong use of a CL aura already and don't stand out as best tip of the spear candidates - or as clearly better to be alpha legion.

"Best" candidate for a Stratagem that only works on the unit closest to an enemy unit... shouldn't that usually be the one with the most movement?

Like you said, everyone would love to put it on Obliterators but it's not realistic. Is anyone really going to want a strong shooting unit out front of the rest of the army?

I could see it benefitting a biker squad, a Heldrake, a large Cultist blob, or maybe a Helbrute. They're going to be up-front anyways.

Well i guess the point is it is possible to control what closest unit we put next to the enemy - and further we don't have to shoot the closest enemy unit - i think the storm eagle gunship is a reasonable example... and its limited to black legion so if you wanted to run your bikers etc. as alpha legion the black legion trait still applies so really good for soup options which is standard in competitive... just looking for other good alternatives..

orkswubwub wrote:
Well i guess the point is it is possible to control what closest unit we put next to the enemy - and further we don't have to shoot the closest enemy unit - i think the storm eagle gunship is a reasonable example... and its limited to black legion so if you wanted to run your bikers etc. as alpha legion the black legion trait still applies so really good for soup options which is standard in competitive... just looking for other good alternatives..

Understood.

All I was saying is I question how practical it is to control this aspect of the game. To me, the Stratagem reads as a way to get rerolls for a unit outside Abaddon's aura range. It felt more like something you use when the opportunity comes up rather than a way to choose your forces.

If you wanted to optimize your list around a unit getting rerolls to hit on first turn, a Fire Raptor might be the "best" unit in terms of shot output. A Spartan might be the best in terms of anti-tank, you could split the 8 lascannon shots over 2 vehicles. A Sicaran Venator might be a good unit to look at for killing a Knight or something.

Each of these units has at least 10" movement to get them in front of your main army and would give you plenty of punch. The tanks, however, do have at least 36" range on their guns. It might make more sense to have them just stand near Abaddon.

A lot of my wargame experience has me building my lists in modules.

I've been thinking on what those might be in chaos (minus adding in daemons).

What do you guys think are our strongest combos for specific situations?

Or is our strength in the individual units + stratagems instead of combos of units that get work done?

Anyone have the mathhammer on berzerkers vs possessed? I'm struggling with determining when / where one is better than the other with all the new legion traits and vigilus goodies.

orkswubwub wrote:
Anyone have the mathhammer on berzerkers vs possessed? I'm struggling with determining when / where one is better than the other with all the new legion traits and vigilus goodies.

Berserkers are pretty much always better.

necrotekkie wrote:
A lot of my wargame experience has me building my lists in modules.

I've been thinking on what those might be in chaos (minus adding in daemons).

What do you guys think are our strongest combos for specific situations?

Or is our strength in the individual units + stratagems instead of combos of units that get work done?

Since Vigilus Ablaze, I've been building lists for friendly games in a modular fashion. Taking two or three optimized detachments and seeing which one excels.

The ones that have worked best in the widest number of situations for my Black Legion army are:

- Legion of Skulls: 2 units of 30 Bloodletters, a Bloodmaster and Skulltaker. Use Denizens of the Warp to drop them in. Far and away the best in terms of offense, Red Tide is useful when you absolutely need to make that charge.

- Devastation Battery: A Chainlord with Ghorivex's Teeth and 2 units of 2 Obliterators. I only spend CP on the detachment if the Oblits are not deep striking. The Oblits hit so hard, and the Chainlord becomes this huge distraction the moment he starts dishing extra mortal wounds. Takes the heat off Obliterators.

- Soulforged Pack: 3 Maulerfiends and a Lord Dischordant. Infernal Engines and Daemonforge for a massive, terrible strike.

- Abaddon and his shooty Marines: 6 MSU squads of CSM with lascannons + Abaddon. They are there to take out tanks from a distance with full rerolls to hit, then close in on objectives on my side of the board.

- Renegade Knight: Renegade Knight with twin AVCs. Opponents ignore it at their peril, other units on my side take less fire.

I can take any 3 of these for about 2000 points.

So one of my friends is a competitive space wolf player (yes they exist). His latest idea is based on loads of bike characters with storm shields and thunder hammers. The idea being to scout deploy some units into los blocking cover to protect them T1.

Now I'm working on an all comers lost, but I'm wondering how to counter something like this. Best idea I have is hang back and counter charge, but then you give away board control. Is this a situation where a unit like a helldrake might actually be useful?

mrtomski wrote:
So one of my friends is a competitive space wolf player (yes they exist). His latest idea is based on loads of bike characters with storm shields and thunder hammers. The idea being to scout deploy some units into los blocking cover to protect them T1.

Now I'm working on an all comers lost, but I'm wondering how to counter something like this. Best idea I have is hang back and counter charge, but then you give away board control. Is this a situation where a unit like a helldrake might actually be useful?

How are SW biker characters supposed to scout deploy?

Pandabeer wrote:

mrtomski wrote:
So one of my friends is a competitive space wolf player (yes they exist). His latest idea is based on loads of bike characters with storm shields and thunder hammers. The idea being to scout deploy some units into los blocking cover to protect them T1.

Now I'm working on an all comers lost, but I'm wondering how to counter something like this. Best idea I have is hang back and counter charge, but then you give away board control. Is this a situation where a unit like a helldrake might actually be useful?

How are SW biker characters supposed to scout deploy?

He's scout deploying the new SM units from vigilus ablaze, the ones which deny DS within 12". He moves the bikes up as normal for a T2 charge

mrtomski wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

mrtomski wrote:
So one of my friends is a competitive space wolf player (yes they exist). His latest idea is based on loads of bike characters with storm shields and thunder hammers. The idea being to scout deploy some units into los blocking cover to protect them T1.

Now I'm working on an all comers lost, but I'm wondering how to counter something like this. Best idea I have is hang back and counter charge, but then you give away board control. Is this a situation where a unit like a helldrake might actually be useful?

How are SW biker characters supposed to scout deploy?

He's scout deploying the new SM units from vigilus ablaze, the ones which deny DS within 12". He moves the bikes up as normal for a T2 charge

Decent sized screens?

Cultists still exist, one or 2 fearless blobs ought to do the trick.
Alternatively one of the renegade chapter traits allows Overwatch on 5+
.

Yeah I'm thinking a big or couple of cultists blobs might be a goo idea. What ways do we have to make them fearless apart from abbadon?

Just stratagem-pass a Morale test if it is critical.

mrtomski wrote:
Yeah I'm thinking a big or couple of cultists blobs might be a goo idea. What ways do we have to make them fearless apart from abbadon?

Iron warriors,

Alternative make a R&H detachment, field the blobs with an enforcer that will keep the blob in line but not be as cheesy.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Just stratagem-pass a Morale test if it is critical.

Jup that also works.

orkswubwub wrote:
Anyone have the mathhammer on berzerkers vs possessed? I'm struggling with determining when / where one is better than the other with all the new legion traits and vigilus goodies.

From playing both I agree zerks are typically more preferable. Zerks hit harder as an autonomous unit. Cheaper and more reliable damage.
Possessed can potentially be more productive but they are so cp hungry and very swingy even with reroll number of attacks. They require support and prefer larger unit sizes. And then no S10 fist. The best builds I believe come from flawless host detachment. But again too much support makes them dominate list design. Zerks for me. I will say that possessed are more durable especially to annoying overwatch. Zerks are overall much more efficient and blendy and can eat up enemy cp sometimes for not much gain.

Have you all seen the new teaser video from warhammer community? Seems like Chaos knights are on the way!!! Are we going to get a full renegade/chaos knights codex? Maybe we can get marked knights!!

I'm hopeful for another round of chaos releases. We still havent seen a pretty obvious rumor engine model. Could be renegade knight upgrade kit, sorcerer, and blackstone fortreas renegade guardsmen and rogue psykers.

Or a dark mechanicus with renegade knights rolled in, but that's a long shot

I'm interested to see if we get marks of the gods on the chaos knights. If we do, then there could be some interesting buff synergy. And if there's a way to get Daemon on them, it'll get crazy.

The new slaanesh daemon prince / herald is 210 points... what do people think of that?

30pts more than a flying DP for more abilities including an absolute bucketload of attacks? Yeah, that’s viable. Likewise 195 for the Contorted Epitome - a 12” moving super frontline support unit. Slaanesh is definitely good right now.

Apsolutly worth it at 210 pts. Thing is a monster that will crush anything it hits while being a terrific support chr as well. Add in some chaos marine stuff like maulerfiends running with it and you have a crazy smash castle that will demand attention.

I can see supporting a MoS demon engine list with a slaanesh demon supreme command of the new combo DP, mirror, and base herald. Super useful all around giving everything in their range advance and charge and they are buffing machines. Very flexible.

Can I get the low down on Magnus the Red.

Why is he good

What is he good at?

How tough is he to kill?

Tactics for (how to use) & against (how to counter?)

Cheers!

So the option to take thunder hammers on bike lords or juggerlords has been removed from battlescribe. What is people's take on taking index codex wargear on index datasheets? If it's a no then can we also not take relics etc on index datasheets?

Abaddon303 wrote:
So the option to take thunder hammers on bike lords or juggerlords has been removed from battlescribe. What is people's take on taking index codex wargear on index datasheets? If it's a no then can we also not take relics etc on index datasheets?

I'm sure I'm completely reading things wrong, but my understanding was that if you want to use a model with no Codex entry, you use the Index entry and use any options available. I thought the only time one could mix the Codex and Index was when you wanted to take an Index option that doesn't exist in the Codex (like twin autocannons on a SM Dreadnought) at which point you paid Index pricing.

That being said, I wouldn't have an issue with a Juggerlord holding a Thunder Hammer, I really can't see it being game breaking. Rule of cool etc.

 buddha wrote:
So played my Red Corsairs demon engine list against eldar flyer spam today and got roasted. Was teched for horde and midfield control but eldar flyers (yes, we used the new FAQ) are the rock to my scissors so to speak.

Other than a smash lord, any good anti-flyer units? I can draw Anything from chaos (demons, legions, etc.) but I'm running a bit short on effective ideas. Would love thoughts on solving this problem.

Others has already made good suggestions.

I've found massed HB Rapier does fine work to wear down flyers.

 Raichase wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
So the option to take thunder hammers on bike lords or juggerlords has been removed from battlescribe. What is people's take on taking index codex wargear on index datasheets? If it's a no then can we also not take relics etc on index datasheets?

I'm sure I'm completely reading things wrong, but my understanding was that if you want to use a model with no Codex entry, you use the Index entry and use any options available. I thought the only time one could mix the Codex and Index was when you wanted to take an Index option that doesn't exist in the Codex (like twin autocannons on a SM Dreadnought) at which point you paid Index pricing.

That being said, I wouldn't have an issue with a Juggerlord holding a Thunder Hammer, I really can't see it being game breaking. Rule of cool etc.

Point of order - a unitbtaken from a Codex can take a loadout permitted in its Index entry, and if the options have a different points cost in the Codex then you pay that price for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My Juggerlord’s taking twin autocannons and that’s that