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grouchoben wrote: No way. If I'm paying 100pt points for a single -1 to hit buff @ 3+, I'm sure as hell going to pay an extra 10pts to make it hugely more reliable. Without the disciples, the Dank Apostle is just a CP sink.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So is 110pts worth it? I think it's niche, and only wroth throwing on a Kytan, Fire Raptor, Storm Eagle, Spartan, etc. I like it because it makes these units viable again. I hate it because it's so over-costed.
You could also use the special detachment instead and get a cheap battalion with cultists in, so you would get a double use out of it, 2+ (1+ if disciples get involved ) and CP through a battalion with slightly better mAybee even use RC and get a free inferno foliant.
(question, is the inferno foliant even worth it?)
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
grouchoben wrote: No way. If I'm paying 100pt points for a single -1 to hit buff @ 3+, I'm sure as hell going to pay an extra 10pts to make it hugely more reliable. Without the disciples, the Dank Apostle is just a CP sink.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So is 110pts worth it? I think it's niche, and only wroth throwing on a Kytan, Fire Raptor, Storm Eagle, Spartan, etc. I like it because it makes these units viable again. I hate it because it's so over-costed.
Think he's alright. Planning to run one in my 1k Alpha Legion force. Having -2 on my shooty Helbrute should keep him alive a lot longer.
Right, so that's a good example. Just take a second Hellbrute.
grouchoben wrote: No way. If I'm paying 100pt points for a single -1 to hit buff @ 3+, I'm sure as hell going to pay an extra 10pts to make it hugely more reliable. Without the disciples, the Dank Apostle is just a CP sink.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So is 110pts worth it? I think it's niche, and only wroth throwing on a Kytan, Fire Raptor, Storm Eagle, Spartan, etc. I like it because it makes these units viable again. I hate it because it's so over-costed.
Think he's alright. Planning to run one in my 1k Alpha Legion force. Having -2 on my shooty Helbrute should keep him alive a lot longer.
Right, so that's a good example. Just take a second Hellbrute.
But then I'd need to take another HQ and with the new Helbrute I wouldn't have the points. To fit in that 2nd Helbrute I'd pretty much have to rejig the whole list. As I said though, I think he'll do alright. It'll be good fun.
Eldenfirefly wrote: So how are thunderhammer jump pack captains working out for everyone? World Eaters TH captains seem to be the best. And raptorial host allows them to deepstrike in and still make the charge (with luck).
Anyone tried out a world eaters main army with such a raptorial host of TH captains?
I love berserkers can honestly, I keep trying to make them work in a WE army even though so far, all signs point to such an army not quite being truly competitive. I am starting to feel that the Dark Apostle is overcosted. Its 100 points minimum, 110 if you include the 2 cultists. And basically, we use the dark apostle for its prayer. So you are paying 110 points for one prayer a turn. That's a ton of points to be paying to one buff per turn. To be worth it, the buff has to be amazing, and a quick rule of thumb is that the prayer has to at least buff 3X the number of points. That means the prayer has to buff at least 330 points of stuff.
Furthermore, if you consider warpsight prayer (+1 to hit for a unit). A psyker can cast prescience for the exactg same effect. A standard CSM psyker can cast 2 spells per turn, so the points spent per spell is a lot cheaper than compared to a prayer. For me, the only two prayers that are maybe worth it are the one that gives 5+ invul to all within 6 inches and the one that gives a -1 to hit. And the -1 to hit has to be given to something expensive, like a Kytan Ravager or a Lord of skulls for it to be worth it. Giving it to anything that is just 100 or even 200 points is an inefficient use of points because you are using 110 points to buff just 200.
Even the 5++ aura is iffy. You need to have over 330 points of stuff buffed by that aura to make it worthwhile. 2 squads of Lascannon Havocs or 3 squds of Havocs ass a bare minimum. And it would result in such a huge bunchup around the said dark Apostle. And perhaps the biggest issue with the Dark Apostle is the Vindicare assassin. Its such a good target for those.
The original reroll to hit melee buff is still great, but it was better as a permanent aura. Now, a Dark Apostle cannot get out of a Rhino and then cast a prayer. And that was almost the standard way in how that buff was delivered to the berserkers , who were also in Rhinos. Once the whole thing becomes a footslog army, then the dark apostle suffers because when you come down to it, it only has a movement of 6.
All these constraints leave only very specific circumstances where a Dark Apostle would be "competitive". In a casual environment, I think they are fluffy and fine. But in a competitive environment where every unit has to pull its weight, they are overcosted.
I get the same feeling with bezerkers, they're amazing when the make their charge into something decent but people know what they do and are good at killing off rhinos, screening them away from units they want to protect etc.
I have tried TH lord and 20x warptalons in a WE host raptorial. Honestly they do everything bezerkers do but better. They don't take overwatch, their weapons are more reliable to wound and to bypass armour saves and they are protected from turn 1 shooting. The TH captain is ok not brilliant. Don't think they're a replacement for DP with 2 claws but if you need a jump pack lord they are ok.
Think if you run them with some long range anti infantry to bypass screen they have lots of potential.
Dark apostles are totally worth it, the prayer starts at the start of the battleround. They are a defensive unit. If your going second they are what let your key unit survive your opponents first round of shooting before you can get the rest of your defensive stuff off.
I always take 1, its well worth its points to the black legion. Be it protecting oblits that you want to start on the table t1, or a lord discordant, or that cultist blob you have completly covering the entire front line, they can be key. You just need to have a real use for it.
I've been thinking about using a Dark Apostle in a Flawless Host detachment. Give him the flawless cloak artefact and benediction of darkness. Turn 1 you use benediction to add a bit of protection to, say, a Rhino with some Possessed. The Rhino and your FH blender prince then move off towards the enemy with the DA running along behind. Turn 2, you use 9" dark zealotry to help your Possessed and your DP get those juicy 6s (or 5s for the DP 'cause it really, really likes prescience).
Of course, this assumes you pull off a charge with the DP and his cronies. And that the DA doesn't stumble on his advance. What else could be fun in that Rhino? Add a GP, maybe.
The whole setup is probably a bit on the expensive side, I guess. Could be fun, though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/15 15:28:16
Bharring wrote: At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
Could be a lot of fun. Gives me some ideas, i have a bud playing chaos that just got into it that could run that. Little fine tuning that could be an interesting setup....
Snugiraffe wrote: I've been thinking about using a Dark Apostle in a Flawless Host detachment. Give him the flawless cloak artefact and benediction of darkness. Turn 1 you use benediction to add a bit of protection to, say, a Rhino with some Possessed. The Rhino and your FH blender prince then move off towards the enemy with the DA running along behind. Turn 2, you use 9" dark zealotry to help your Possessed and your DP get those juicy 6s (or 5s for the DP 'cause it really, really likes prescience).
Of course, this assumes you pull off a charge with the DP and his cronies. And that the DA doesn't stumble on his advance. What else could be fun in that Rhino? Add a GP, maybe.
The whole setup is probably a bit on the expensive side, I guess. Could be fun, though.
Dark Zealotry is redundant on the DP and doesn’t do that much to Possessed that are also near the DP
Really want some actual Chaos soave marines in my list and have been toying with using 2 or 3 X 6 man squads with rotor cannon and the champion having a standard combi bolter. Ok they are relatively expensive for what you get but having them huddle round abandon and pump out shots re rolling hits isn't too bad. Will also have a blob of cultists out withe them too.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Really want some actual Chaos soave marines in my list and have been toying with using 2 or 3 X 6 man squads with rotor cannon and the champion having a standard combi bolter. Ok they are relatively expensive for what you get but having them huddle round abandon and pump out shots re rolling hits isn't too bad. Will also have a blob of cultists out withe them too.
I have used 2 five man CSM with Reaper Chain cannons and for the points they are pretty great. They are not removing units from the board with ease, like say Oblits, but the extra firepower they add to the rest of your shooting is noticeable. I really like them and will probably bring two in most of my lists.
I'm kind of defaulting to chain msg CSM for my troops now, especially with AL trait. I tend to stick a Combi on the aspiring champ too, for 18 shots in total when static. These guys want to set up early, so I even use the AL Strat occassionally on a pair of them, to start them off in range, in cover, depending on the opponent. Finally, weight of dice means they're still okays on the move. I don't know how I'd feel about them in any other legion though.
grouchoben wrote: I'm kind of defaulting to chain msg CSM for my troops now, especially with AL trait. I tend to stick a Combi on the aspiring champ too, for 18 shots in total when static. These guys want to set up early, so I even use the AL Strat occassionally on a pair of them, to start them off in range, in cover, depending on the opponent. Finally, weight of dice means they're still okays on the move. I don't know how I'd feel about them in any other legion though.
Well AL or RC are the obvious candidates for fielding csm.
RC just has the added recycling shenanigans as a possibility.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Snugiraffe wrote: I've been thinking about using a Dark Apostle in a Flawless Host detachment. Give him the flawless cloak artefact and benediction of darkness. Turn 1 you use benediction to add a bit of protection to, say, a Rhino with some Possessed. The Rhino and your FH blender prince then move off towards the enemy with the DA running along behind. Turn 2, you use 9" dark zealotry to help your Possessed and your DP get those juicy 6s (or 5s for the DP 'cause it really, really likes prescience).
Of course, this assumes you pull off a charge with the DP and his cronies. And that the DA doesn't stumble on his advance. What else could be fun in that Rhino? Add a GP, maybe.
The whole setup is probably a bit on the expensive side, I guess. Could be fun, though.
Dark Zealotry is redundant on the DP and doesn’t do that much to Possessed that are also near the DP
It's not redundant. I don't want it for getting re-rolls just so I can hit - I want the full re-rolls to help me get the 6s (or 5s with prescience) that generate 3 additional attacks. It's redundant for the additional attacks, granted.
I'll also grant you that dark zealotry can easily be substituted with the FH strat if you're looking at the DP alone. It only gets to be decent once there are other units also in the bubble, at which point it can save you 1CP as an added bonus.
Perhaps the Possessed aren't the best choice as cronies for the DP. Perhaps just stuff the Rhino with GPs and some regular CSM (the latter can act as screens or bring a chaincannon or a flamer or something to clear a path to better targets?). Perhaps bring a CC helbrute or two?
Bharring wrote: At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
Anyone had any success with 10-man warp talon unit in a host raptoris, with a few smash lords along? They offer some pretty unique abilities, although they chew up your CPs something chronic.
grouchoben wrote: Anyone had any success with 10-man warp talon unit in a host raptoris, with a few smash lords along? They offer some pretty unique abilities, although they chew up your CPs something chronic.
They’re not bad. Best used in an army where your gunners are doing the business with auras alone - you can’t really soup them up and also throw around Fire Frenzies & Endless Cacophonies. I prefer to keep them small and use them in conjunction with other units; especially effective as World Eaters with Daemons providing charge reroll auras - which has double synergy, as they can save CP-efficient 20-strong Bloodletter bombs from falling below critical mass to overwatch; makes T’au firebases cry.
Potential synergy with the ability of Skarbrand and various Slaanesh Daemon trickery to prevent enemies falling back.
If you want to deliver them as a death machine with a mass of moving parts, the Skull Altar can make things get really wacky.
What do people think about the hellforge scorpios? 217 points I think, but really nice shooting profile and can target units out of line of sight. If it was 50 points cheaper it take it immediately..
grouchoben wrote: Anyone had any success with 10-man warp talon unit in a host raptoris, with a few smash lords along? They offer some pretty unique abilities, although they chew up your CPs something chronic.
It should be good. You will absolutely smash newbies who don't know how to screen. Against experienced players who know to screen though, then you are going to need stuff that clears screens too. I have found that screen clearing isn't just having lots of s4 or s5 guns. The issue is what if your opponent hides the screens out of line of sight? No point having 80 S4 shots if none of them can see the screens hiding out of line of sight...
grouchoben wrote: Anyone had any success with 10-man warp talon unit in a host raptoris, with a few smash lords along? They offer some pretty unique abilities, although they chew up your CPs something chronic.
It should be good. You will absolutely smash newbies who don't know how to screen. Against experienced players who know to screen though, then you are going to need stuff that clears screens too. I have found that screen clearing isn't just having lots of s4 or s5 guns. The issue is what if your opponent hides the screens out of line of sight? No point having 80 S4 shots if none of them can see the screens hiding out of line of sight...
1) Use your own scouts and hope that you can grab and hold enough area if you know your opponent is too canny to let you deep strike in at the back. This means you need to dip into Nurgle to get Nurgling swarms (which are the only scout type units CSM can have access to).
2) Use guns which can shoot at out of line of sight units. Again, this means you need to dip into deathguard to get say Plague Burst Crawlers because within the CSM codex, such guns don't exist.
3). Have a heavy board control segment of your army. You moveup , take objectives and the midfield, and threaten his entire army line. He has to move up to meet you or risk losing in objectives or allowing you to dictate the flow. If he is forced to move up to meet you, he inevitably is forced to leave gaps behind. If he doesn't, you will control the midfield and you can then have the space to deep strike there even if you don't deep strike at the back. The only problem is that in order to have such a heavy midfield board control army, you need a lot of points devoted into it. You can't just chuck 30 cultists into the midfield and call it a day.
On the positive side. You need to have quite experienced opponents who have suffered from the pain of deepstrike before. Newbies and even players with some games under their belt probably won't be able to screen so intelligently and well.
2) Use guns which can shoot at out of line of sight units. Again, this means you need to dip into deathguard to get say Plague Burst Crawlers because within the CSM codex, such guns don't exist.
Or don't dip into Death Guard by using a Hellforged Deredeo with Greater Havoc Launcher or a Hellforged Scorpius.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/18 04:23:01
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2) Use guns which can shoot at out of line of sight units. Again, this means you need to dip into deathguard to get say Plague Burst Crawlers because within the CSM codex, such guns don't exist.
Or don't dip into Death Guard by using a Hellforged Deredeo with Greater Havoc Launcher or a Hellforged Scorpius.
Scorpius, R&H mortar squads (yes they are good enough to actally justify) , or don't field talons because even with the higher charge range and boost through host raptorial they still are overpriced for what they do. Sadly.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Hm hellforge deredeo is armed to the teeth but only has 3d3 s6 -1 1d shots that dont need LOS.
Very comparable in points to the scorpius which can fire twice, but has less wounds, no invun but since it's only weapon doesn't need LOS can probably be hidden all game.
mrtomski wrote: Hm hellforge deredeo is armed to the teeth but only has 3d3 s6 -1 1d shots that dont need LOS.
Very comparable in points to the scorpius which can fire twice, but has less wounds, no invun but since it's only weapon doesn't need LOS can probably be hidden all game.
Anyone have experience of these units?
Scorpious is probably the best CSM tank there is from FW, Deredo is one of the best in turns of Dreds we get.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/18 08:57:44
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I think I'm leaning towards the scorpius, despite its lower survivability and BS, the for more non LOS shots and -2 2d given it's mostly going to be shooting stuff in cover, and 2d deals with primaris which I think will only get more popular.
A bit of a shame as I do prefer dreads aesthetically, and with the hellbute key word could have alpha legion for -1hit to make it last even longer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/18 10:00:43
Without accounting for indirect fire the dreads of all descriptions are better than the Scorpius. Unfortunately it's shooting profile is only really good against 2W infantry. Compare it to Butcher Cannons which are highly versatile and great against pretty much anything.
My question is has anybody run DA with 5++ aura and triple Helbrutes or tanks? I was thinking about which auras could benefit most from Voice of Lorgar and was thinking along the lines of 1x shoot Helbrute, 2x CC Helbrutes and they march up the field with a 5++ and go break stuff. Shooty Helbrute can use Blasphemous Machines where necessary and can get in a good position for Fire Frenzy.
saint_red wrote: Without accounting for indirect fire the dreads of all descriptions are better than the Scorpius. Unfortunately it's shooting profile is only really good against 2W infantry. Compare it to Butcher Cannons which are highly versatile and great against pretty much anything.
My question is has anybody run DA with 5++ aura and triple Helbrutes or tanks? I was thinking about which auras could benefit most from Voice of Lorgar and was thinking along the lines of 1x shoot Helbrute, 2x CC Helbrutes and they march up the field with a 5++ and go break stuff. Shooty Helbrute can use Blasphemous Machines where necessary and can get in a good position for Fire Frenzy.
i guess you would eliminate one of the main weaknesses CSM vehicles have with the 5++ however the "fully within 6" around the DA might become an issue.
Also there's the other prayers which often offer better effects in better units, especially the -1 to hit can be very good on a key unit.
Also the DA is 100 pts.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
The DA is cute but really only works to buff one huge thing. I really wish they had given him choice of prayers. I.e. he technically gets 3 (base + God + chosen); if they had let you pick 3 instead I think he would feel good. As it is, he's hard to justify without a kytan or maaaaybe a full unit of oblits
saint_red wrote: Without accounting for indirect fire the dreads of all descriptions are better than the Scorpius. Unfortunately it's shooting profile is only really good against 2W infantry. Compare it to Butcher Cannons which are highly versatile and great against pretty much anything.
My question is has anybody run DA with 5++ aura and triple Helbrutes or tanks? I was thinking about which auras could benefit most from Voice of Lorgar and was thinking along the lines of 1x shoot Helbrute, 2x CC Helbrutes and they march up the field with a 5++ and go break stuff. Shooty Helbrute can use Blasphemous Machines where necessary and can get in a good position for Fire Frenzy.
Butcher cannons are nice for the easy wound roll, but I'm thinking -2ap is going to very useful to counter units in cover. Honestly s6 -2 2d I think is a great weapon.
If you can keep it hidden I cant see it not making its points back most games. When it comes to direct attack I'll personally be mostly relying on getting into cc.
Right now I'm trying to have something in my list which can counter hidden units protecting characters as I know I'll be up against that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/18 15:41:12
saint_red wrote: Without accounting for indirect fire the dreads of all descriptions are better than the Scorpius. Unfortunately it's shooting profile is only really good against 2W infantry. Compare it to Butcher Cannons which are highly versatile and great against pretty much anything.
My question is has anybody run DA with 5++ aura and triple Helbrutes or tanks? I was thinking about which auras could benefit most from Voice of Lorgar and was thinking along the lines of 1x shoot Helbrute, 2x CC Helbrutes and they march up the field with a 5++ and go break stuff. Shooty Helbrute can use Blasphemous Machines where necessary and can get in a good position for Fire Frenzy.
i guess you would eliminate one of the main weaknesses CSM vehicles have with the 5++ however the "fully within 6" around the DA might become an issue.
Also there's the other prayers which often offer better effects in better units, especially the -1 to hit can be very good on a key unit.
Also the DA is 100 pts.
Well with Voice of Lorgar you are extending that to a 9" bubble which is more than enough coverage. Remember that because of how circle area works you double the buff effect area as you go from 6 - > 9. Then once you get your Helbrutes a bit closer you also have the option of using the re-roll hits buff instead. There's probably an argument to be made that you could just spend the points on something else though. Maybe for triple predators so you can help ensure killshot goes off.
saint_red wrote: Without accounting for indirect fire the dreads of all descriptions are better than the Scorpius. Unfortunately it's shooting profile is only really good against 2W infantry. Compare it to Butcher Cannons which are highly versatile and great against pretty much anything.
My question is has anybody run DA with 5++ aura and triple Helbrutes or tanks? I was thinking about which auras could benefit most from Voice of Lorgar and was thinking along the lines of 1x shoot Helbrute, 2x CC Helbrutes and they march up the field with a 5++ and go break stuff. Shooty Helbrute can use Blasphemous Machines where necessary and can get in a good position for Fire Frenzy.
i guess you would eliminate one of the main weaknesses CSM vehicles have with the 5++ however the "fully within 6" around the DA might become an issue.
Also there's the other prayers which often offer better effects in better units, especially the -1 to hit can be very good on a key unit.
Also the DA is 100 pts.
Well with Voice of Lorgar you are extending that to a 9" bubble which is more than enough coverage. Remember that because of how circle area works you double the buff effect area as you go from 6 - > 9. Then once you get your Helbrutes a bit closer you also have the option of using the re-roll hits buff instead. There's probably an argument to be made that you could just spend the points on something else though. Maybe for triple predators so you can help ensure killshot goes off.
Nope, because voice of lorgar is a waste twofold, a you need to run WB, and B spitefull flames and other wl traits are just so much better.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
