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Literally no idea how to build up my Black legion to 2000 points to build on the shadowspear stuff. Bought 10 cultists for a third cheap troop choice but I don't know what direction I want to go in really to get it to 2000.

The things I want are....

Abby
Terminators
Maybe a forgeworld dread like the leviathan??

Generally thinking of 2 X 6 man CSM squads with chain cannon
Couple of cultist blobs and maybe a dread. Then the hard hitters would be some deep striking termies and oblits??

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Literally no idea how to build up my Black legion to 2000 points to build on the shadowspear stuff. Bought 10 cultists for a third cheap troop choice but I don't know what direction I want to go in really to get it to 2000.

The things I want are....

Abby
Terminators
Maybe a forgeworld dread like the leviathan??

Generally thinking of 2 X 6 man CSM squads with chain cannon
Couple of cultist blobs and maybe a dread. Then the hard hitters would be some deep striking termies and oblits??

I myself am working on building up my first 40k army as a result of buying the Shadowspear box. The route I'm taking to filling out a 2000 points list includes converting the included Primaris Marines into Possessed and a unit of ten terminators with an accompanying Terminator Lord. Maybe that's something to consider for you aswell?

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Literally no idea how to build up my Black legion to 2000 points to build on the shadowspear stuff. Bought 10 cultists for a third cheap troop choice but I don't know what direction I want to go in really to get it to 2000.

The things I want are....

Abby
Terminators
Maybe a forgeworld dread like the leviathan??

Generally thinking of 2 X 6 man CSM squads with chain cannon
Couple of cultist blobs and maybe a dread. Then the hard hitters would be some deep striking termies and oblits??

So you got a MoP, 2 greater Possessed, 2 Oblits, 5melee marines 5 dakka marines with an AC and a venomcrawler.
That is :
98 pts hq,

65 melee marines
75 dakka marines
230 for Oblits.
Venomcrawler is 130 pts.

598pts.


Ok first things first i'd suggest to build a battalion, in this case we add Abigail for 240 pts and the cultist blob for another 150 pts.

We would be at 988 pts.

I'd replace the melee csm from shadowspear with bolter ones, probably add an AC first cheap allround dakka or a reaper (in this exemple let's go with an AC again so 998pts.

10 combi plas terminators with Chainaxes for that alpha strike shenanigans and for Abby rerolls would cost another 380 pts total so far 1388 pts.

I would suggest maybee a Trio of Lord discordants for 480 pts so now you get a big beatstick so to speak and fire soakers aswell as more use for the MoP, total 1868.

Maybee add another big cultist squad.

Maybee cut the termites down to size and instead bring some decimators to combine with Lord discordants, the one or other defiler might be interesting.

Also since you are not averse to FW consider R&H battalion for CP instead and for fodder, making space and points for your elite csm units.

Generally with Abigail as warlord a battalion and bf you get 10 cp which is not bad. Of course this is just a suggestion alternate takes would probably include the Bl chainsword Lord with jumppack with frontline commander uses to give him spitefull flames aswell as the bl relic chainsword, dp's can also be a nice thing, maybee you go full daemon engine, i don't know but if you prefer the run off the Mill csm then RC is a must have instead.

You could also consider fielding all cult marines once as elite choices for some wierd shenanigans altough not recommended.

Speaking of my own attempts at an atleast somewhat prudent armylist I was wondering if you guys could help me out with some equipment choices:
For my 10 man strong unit of Terminators of Slaanesh I originally thought of going Power Axe and Combi-plasma but since then I've been starting to reconsider if it wouldn't be better to try and save up some points to put into something else. At first I thought that I'd only swap out the Power Axes for Chainaxes but lately I've been wondering if I shouldn't replace the combi-plasmas with combi-bolters aswell. While the combi-plasmas would definitely mean a much more hardhitting squad (especially with a Terminator Lord nearby to reroll all 1s) picking combibolters would save me 90 points.

The other question I had was about the Troop Choice CSM. After reading some of the pages in this thread it's apparent that people like taking Reaper Chaincannons on them. Is this a better weapon option than going plasma gun + combi-plasma for units of 5 models?
I'm going to be using three units of CSM to fill out my Battalion Troop tax.For this purpose I've come up with three different ways to go about them: My first plan was to go with three units of 5 models armed with combi-plasma and plasma gun with a Chaos Lord for the reroll. However, I'm also considering going two plasma units of 5 models and one unit of 10 models with two Reaper Chaincannons and a combi-bolter or possibly 3 units of 5 models armed with combi-bolter and Reaper Chaincannon. No matter what special equipment I decide on the rest of the models will have boltguns.

Good advice cheers chaps, I have converted the csm with closer combat weapons to carry boltguns already. Think my next purchase is going to be some terminators definitely.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Good advice cheers chaps, I have converted the csm with closer combat weapons to carry boltguns already. Think my next purchase is going to be some terminators definitely.

I would consider looking and asking around for combi plas parts then.

Edit also there is only one chainaxe in the box, i just took some khorne Berzerkers ones and modified the power fists with some regular csm chainswords for count as Chainaxes, but that also works because my bunch is a happy go lucky merry Band of Pirates so the chainsword cutlasses make sense.

Just to add my 2 cents you can never go wrong with a daemon prince. Double claws with the slannesh relic is killer.

For those talking about termies and combi weapons, I have had great success with dropping in 10 termies with a lord in termie armor all equipped with combi-plasmas. Mark Slannesh for endless cacophony and drop veterans and watch as you take out 2 major threats in 1 shooting phase.I back them up with berzerkers in a land raider and rhino (depending on the points size, last few games we played 2500) which are a huge threat as well.

If you have abby then cultist blobs are probably better than marines. My list is World Eaters and Alpha Legion and my World eaters rock 2 battalions each with a unit of berzerkers and 2 10 man units of cultists, then a battalion of Alpha where I use space marines (who back up the cultists). I mostly keep the cultist unit small due to moral and they are really just fodder anyway. The Marines do back up the cultist well but marines are mostly just objective holders due to being fairly durable (-1 to hit 12" away b/c Alpha Legion helps with that) and I run them in 3 squads of 6.

I've still got a 10 man unit of old termis with combi-plasma and power axes. They were so much fun to use before the deeps trike and warptime nerfs but now against anybody who knows how to screen it's just not worth it :(

If you are going to take them then you imo a sorcerer is mandatory for Delightful Agonies and Prescience. If you're BL then you can use their strat for re-roll 1s as well. Night Lords are actually a good option here because of the -1 to hit you can get through their stratagem but none of this addresses the problem of 12" optimal range on a slow unit that comes in T2 at the earliest.

here's a thought, if you're running Abby and gonna toss a cultist blob with him, should you go with autoguns, or Auto-Pistols+CCW? I mean guns over knives is useally the better choice but if you're running them in front of an HQ you wanna get into combat anyway....

Autoguns, always. Rapid firing autoguns re-rolling all hits is extremely deadly to chaff in rapid fire range, while still being reasonably effective at 24". Meanwhile, close combat is extremely lethal to cultists (since they get swung at on your turn and the enemy turn, literally taking double damage) so it is never worth it to deal damage that way.

Better to rapid fire the enemy, stay out of combat on your turn, and then get charged by the enemy on the following turn and keep them busy for a while. If you have to rely on charging your cultists to do damage, then half or all of them could die before your turn even ends. Not a good tradeoff.

On the terminator readout, I spent a long time thinking about what was best. In the end I play people who screen so I've dropped them from my list, but I'd argue that if you are thinking combi bolter you should think about bikes instead.

I personally had good results with the cheapest possible terminator squad, ( 4 combi bolters and a reaper autocannon aswell as Chainaxes). I use them actually more as a anti infantry Tool and fire magnet.

The Lifting i leave for other parts of my list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 slave.entity wrote:
Autoguns, always. Rapid firing autoguns re-rolling all hits is extremely deadly to chaff in rapid fire range, while still being reasonably effective at 24". Meanwhile, close combat is extremely lethal to cultists (since they get swung at on your turn and the enemy turn, literally taking double damage) so it is never worth it to deal damage that way.

Better to rapid fire the enemy, stay out of combat on your turn, and then get charged by the enemy on the following turn and keep them busy for a while. If you have to rely on charging your cultists in to do damage, then half or all of them could die before your turn even ends. Not a good tradeoff.

Guns are the way to go for csm cultists indeed, they also make good targets for prescience or other buffs due to the volume of buffed shots.

Sorry for not getting back sooner to the responses, I appreciate them all. Looking over the rules, I think that the Vrosh Tattersoul/Aspiring Champion model is within the rules of CSM, and aesthetically fits well with the new models. I wish there were rules for his knife, not just his axe, but hey, that's life.

As to my CSM army, at the moment, I'm thinking of doing one battalion of Death Guard, one of World Eaters, and one of bloodletters which I intend to deepstrike. With my WE, I'm going be having one unit of berzerkers using mostly unconverted AoS models; just today, I ordered the Aspiring Deathbringer, and will also be getting an Aspiring Deathbringer with Goreaxe and Skullhammer (I'll remove the hammer and replace it with the DG fist bit), the one with the Bloodbite Axe, and some Blood Warriors and possibly some Skullreapers. The Slaughterpriest with the Hackblade is also an option. I don't like the look of the current berzerkers (minus Kharn), and I've heard that not having guns is good for berzerkers as it makes their charges more effective, and charges are is where berzerkers shine.

Regarding Terminators: Death Guard Blightlords pay +8PPM for T5, 4++, 5+++, access to beefier melee weapons, and if you’re buying them Plasma their Legion trait that gives it an 18” double tap. They appeared in competitive lists before the Terminator price cuts, that reach is nicely disruptive to screening plays that assume a 12” threat radius, and their endurance & melee clout makes them a formidable speedbump.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Sorry for not getting back sooner to the responses, I appreciate them all. Looking over the rules, I think that the Vrosh Tattersoul/Aspiring Champion model is within the rules of CSM, and aesthetically fits well with the new models. I wish there were rules for his knife, not just his axe, but hey, that's life.

As to my CSM army, at the moment, I'm thinking of doing one battalion of Death Guard, one of World Eaters, and one of bloodletters which I intend to deepstrike. With my WE, I'm going be having one unit of berzerkers using mostly unconverted AoS models; just today, I ordered the Aspiring Deathbringer, and will also be getting an Aspiring Deathbringer with Goreaxe and Skullhammer (I'll remove the hammer and replace it with the DG fist bit), the one with the Bloodbite Axe, and some Blood Warriors and possibly some Skullreapers. The Slaughterpriest with the Hackblade is also an option. I don't like the look of the current berzerkers (minus Kharn), and I've heard that not having guns is good for berzerkers as it makes their charges more effective, and charges are is where berzerkers shine.

Spot on, the only ranged attack berserkers should be using is a cheeky frag grenade

Damned shame they dropped the extra chaos backpacks pack. It was perfect for AoS kitbashing :(

 lindsay40k wrote:

Spot on, the only ranged attack berserkers should be using is a cheeky frag grenade

Damned shame they dropped the extra chaos backpacks pack. It was perfect for AoS kitbashing :(

Yeah, that does suck. I was thinking of using possessed backpacks, but to be honest, I personally feel that putting any backpacks on the AoS models might look a bit wonky.

Quick modelling question, are there combi bolters in the new CSM box? Ideally want to get two combi bolter aspiring champs out of each box.

If not... how do people do combi bolters?

mrtomski wrote:
Quick modelling question, are there combi bolters in the new CSM box? Ideally want to get two combi bolter aspiring champs out of each box.

If not... how do people do combi bolters?

There are not. While everything in the kit is beautifully sculpted, it's pathetic how few options it includes.

I made combi-bolters for mine by cutting up two bolt pistols, filing down the sides, gluing them side by side, then re-centering the handle to be in the middle of them. They look closer to a storm bolter than they do a combi-bolter, but i don't think anyone can complain considering there's not even a single combi weapon in the kit.

mrtomski wrote:
Quick modelling question, are there combi bolters in the new CSM box? Ideally want to get two combi bolter aspiring champs out of each box.

If not... how do people do combi bolters?

It comes with 5 combi bolters and like 10 unique melee weapons. One of the combi bolters can be a combi plasma or melta. Plus I think It comes with a HF and an auto cannon. I didn't build ether HW though so I am not sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Karnij wrote:

mrtomski wrote:
Quick modelling question, are there combi bolters in the new CSM box? Ideally want to get two combi bolter aspiring champs out of each box.

If not... how do people do combi bolters?

There are not. While everything in the kit is beautifully sculpted, it's pathetic how few options it includes.

I made combi-bolters for mine by cutting up two bolt pistols, filing down the sides, gluing them side by side, then re-centering the handle to be in the middle of them. They look closer to a storm bolter than they do a combi-bolter, but i don't think anyone can complain considering there's not even a single combi weapon in the kit.

Ineed the models look great but not a lot of options. A lot like the 10 man CSM squad - great models with no options or poseability.

 Karnij wrote:

mrtomski wrote:
Quick modelling question, are there combi bolters in the new CSM box? Ideally want to get two combi bolter aspiring champs out of each box.

If not... how do people do combi bolters?

There are not. While everything in the kit is beautifully sculpted, it's pathetic how few options it includes.

I made combi-bolters for mine by cutting up two bolt pistols, filing down the sides, gluing them side by side, then re-centering the handle to be in the middle of them. They look closer to a storm bolter than they do a combi-bolter, but i don't think anyone can complain considering there's not even a single combi weapon in the kit.

yeah I've mostly been using stormbolters from a old sternguard set of mine. mildly annoying there's no combi bolters. we could REALLY use a CSM chosen kit

mrtomski wrote:
Quick modelling question, are there combi bolters in the new CSM box? Ideally want to get two combi bolter aspiring champs out of each box.

If not... how do people do combi bolters?

There’s a number of approaches I’ve taken:
- converting Terminators into Oblits and retaining the spares
- buying & bartering spare storm bolters from Dark Angels & Space Wolves collectors who’ve built HF, AC, and melee Terminators
- building melee, HF, and reaper Cataphractii & Tartaros Terminators and retaining the spares
- building headswapped Berzerkers dual-wielding bolt pistols and switching the weapons out for bolters (easier with HH or old Heretac bolters that don’t have sculpted hands on the grips), not a wildly popular kit but I love them - and they come with sheathed Swords for WYSIWYG Chosen and look pretty badass running & gunning like Frank Castle

If you are willing to wait a month or two, Subtle Discord is making some pretty sweet over/under combi weapons. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241839-legion-rising/page-73

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
If you are willing to wait a month or two, Subtle Discord is making some pretty sweet over/under combi weapons. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241839-legion-rising/page-73

once that happens I might order me some and do up some chosen.

edit: ohh dfouble plus he's in canada so no over the top euro prices yay

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
If you are willing to wait a month or two, Subtle Discord is making some pretty sweet over/under combi weapons. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241839-legion-rising/page-73

once that happens I might order me some and do up some chosen.

edit: ohh dfouble plus he's in canada so no over the top euro prices yay

If you haven't seen his stuff yet, check it out. I've used his rhino trim kits and they are amazing. Here is his actual website http://thedarkworks.bigcartel.com

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
If you are willing to wait a month or two, Subtle Discord is making some pretty sweet over/under combi weapons. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241839-legion-rising/page-73

once that happens I might order me some and do up some chosen.

edit: ohh dfouble plus he's in canada so no over the top euro prices yay

If you haven't seen his stuff yet, check it out. I've used his rhino trim kits and they are amazing. Here is his actual website http://thedarkworks.bigcartel.com

ohh yeah thats amazing for traitor rhinos! If I wanted to buy anything I'd need to get a paypal account but yeah might be worth figuring it out for this

Hi Guys, in the late months I'm having an horrible time playing against Orks.

I play Black Legion (or Death Guard): different lists but basically possessed, land rider, havocs and obliterators, sometimes berzerkes.

My opponent plays a Big Mek with the relic shokk gun, with which basically he oneshots a unit everytime he shoots, be a land rider, obliterators, PBC and so on... and he shoots twice... and being a character I can't kill him. He plays the index Bike Warboss, with the 4D KillKlaw, attacking again when he dies means that he can easily kill a Knight in a turn with a 99 point model; he plays the bonebreakers which are basically broken and everytime they explode dealing d6 MWs ; and he plays 2x30 boyz which always come back, meaning basically 90 Boyz, which he teleports everywhere with a psyker so full of bonus he cannot fail the cast, and the 9 rerollable charge seldom fails. Adding to all this nonsense, with deathskull he has 6++ everywhere and rerolls a lot of dices, which increase the damage enormously.

I'm one of the best players in my group, I tabled a lot of opponents in the past tournaments, I can easily play against every army... but Orks my God, I have no course of action against them.

Oh Mighy Lords of Chaos, give me your Wisdom!

kick out the Landraider, the oblits, and the possesed and mix it up with with big cultists screens ( you play BL you will likely field abbadon) consider a Sorc or two for denying, (MoP)

Sad but true. The answer to most tactics questions is "get rid of anything cool and replace all of it with cultists."

I run my black legion with 30 cultists and 30 chaos marines (a squad of 20 pure bolters and a squad of 10 maxed on plasma) and it works well as my solid center core, so take my advice with a grain of salt...

Having said that vs orks there are 2 ways to deal with them.

1. Out shoot them and make their lives miserable at range, which as you have found can be hard to do at times but is possible with proper screening.

2. Turn their goals into weaknesses. By that i mean use their playstyle against them. Orks for the most part want to be in cc. You know what else wants to be in cc? Beserkers. Possessed. Deamon princes. Cc dreads with scourges. Chaos spawns. We have access to a lot of things that love cc but cant get there, so let the orks da jump in and charge, let them kill a sacrificial lamb of 5 beserkers or possessed or whatever. The other 4 squads of 5 beserkers will looooove it.

Keep in mind the following. 5 beserkers cost 80 pts and get 32 attacks when they charge due to the fight twice rules. Hitting on 3's thats 24 hits, 12 wounds, 10 dead orks for 80 pts? Thats assuming no shinanigans or rerolls. Thats pretty effective. And now they are locked in cc with you, with your support stuff sitting there waiting to get in on the fun.

Thats what I would do.

Berserkers are S5.

That's 32 swings, 21.33 hits (not 24 like you said), 14.22 wounds, and about 12 dead Orks.

Add Chainaxes for 5 points to make that over 14 dead.