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I forget they are str 5 sometimes, sorry. My point still stands, better in my favor even. I was doing quick / dirty math. Sorry about that.

Still, thats what i would do.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Berserkers are S5.

That's 32 swings, 21.33 hits (not 24 like you said), 14.22 wounds, and about 12 dead Orks.

Add Chainaxes for 5 points to make that over 14 dead.

....

How you get 21.33 hits? Two thirds of 32 is 24.

That’s 3/4ths.

 JNAProductions wrote:
That’s 3/4ths.

Lmao, you are quite right. I guess math at midnight is not for me!!

My apologies!

No worries. It’s easy to make minor goofs.

Yep thats what i did too lol.

Thank you for the answers. Unfortunately screening is almost impossible, 30 shoota boyz shoot 60 s4 hits and deal more than 90 attacks in CC... cultist have no chance, and with pile in and consolidate is still easy to engage shooters.
Thank you Azuza, Berzerkers and maybe Possessed seems the only choice, but still the major problem remains: even if I manage to survive and kill 90+ wounds of orks and 32+ wounds of bonebreakers (all with 6++) I'm still massacred by shooting (which I have no way to counter) and stuck in my deployment zone, which means I have no way of winning with objectives.


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But still... I know that Orks are not a tournament winning army, nor the meta shakers everybody thought they would have been. So there has to be something that I am missing

Screening still works because it means he has to drop outside of 9" of the screen, rather than the shooting units. Sure, your cultists are going to go poof pretty much immediately when shot, but he has to drop the Boyz in prior to the shooting phase. This means, given proper screen placement, that he's stuck more like 11" or 12" (ideally outside 12" of course) away from your shooters, which is unlikely to be successful even with 'Ere We Go!.

If you're willing to ally in Daemons you could run a Letterbomb or some Horrors to counter-deep strike his Boyz once they've spent themselves on your screen. Or you could summon the Horrors in turn 1 if that's more your cup of tea; they should easily be in range of the enemy given proper placement of the model doing the summoning.

You could go after characters. Both the chain lord and master of execution would be great here. Chain lord lets you jump screens and get to his characters. MoE is a character hunter, but would need to get through any screens. Sounds like that wont be a problem though.

You could also run nurglings. Get them out and be an early screen/deepstrike blockers. He can charge the nurglings and apend his time killing them while you get the counter charge next turn. Or once the nurglings die, shoot the orks off the board

30 shoota boys getting 60 shots is only 20 hits, they hit on 5's. Those 20 shots generate 10 more shots, so maybe 4 extra hits. Then they havs to wound, even if they got above average wounds that is still only like 9 dead, and if you pull from the front it can make their charge distance harder. Finally even if the cultists do die with proper screening the orks that da jumped cant get a charge off now. They still cant charge from outside 12".

If you don't want to use cultists marines are also more effective at survival in this situation.

60 shots at 10 marines = 24 hits. Str 4 vs t4 = 12 wounds. 3+ save means you lose like 6 marines.

Its kinda like that ork super gun you mentioned (cant remember its name atm), i have only ever seen that thing do something amazing once in a game, and i have faced it over a dozen times. That was at a tournament where the owner rolled incredibly well (str rolled was 11, shots rolled was 10, and got 5 hits hitting on 5's) and it one shotted a swarm lord. Normally the gun is crap because it has to roll above str 10 to potentially do mortals and then it actually has to hit to do them. For orks hitting on 5's its not likely.

If your really worried about something put a dark apostle in there with the -1 prayer. There ya go, orks hitting on 6's and are now half as good at shooting.

Don't get discouraged bud, you can do it.

Azuza once again you are right, I ran the numbers on the Big Mek with relic and he should just be able to kill a rhino, but on practice he did 12 MWs on a PBC once, one shotted a land rider and so on... also -1 to hit is useless cause he pops dakka dakka on 5+. Maybe he's just incredibly lucky and I should try again...

Sure, screens can still be useful, if it just happens to have the 1st turn I'll get more space moving and denying

Are berzerkers worth taking in a non world eater army, where they won't get the +1 attack.
Despite only failure in all my games so far i'm still trying to make my Khorne demonkin army work. I'm using black legion (hounds of abbadon) because their indomitable warlord trait seems to be the only way for a lord discordant to not die first turn. But i'd like to splash in a rhino with berzerkers in addition to all my demon engines and bloodletter bomb.

I think beserkers are better not in world eaters. I would rather get -1 to hit and run them up or advance and charge over that 1 extra attack per guy.

As for popping the strat to hit on 5's with the orks, thats a win if he is going to do that on those units. He can only pop it once per phase and 1 squad of boys (or the big gun) getting it is definitely preferable to what it should be popped on (lootas).

CSM have chain cannons now, a weapon designed to delete orks. An endless cacophony havoc squad with a chaos lord for rerolls kills 33 orks on average and costs 150pts and 2cps. If you want to delete two blobs go votlw and split fire, and you'll kill 44, with the remaining 16 fleeing (can't say I blame them).

As long as you can properly screen and protect them, that one squad will take care of your Boyz problem. Just to reiterate, that's 150pts of easy-to-hide marines killing 420pts of orks in one round of shooting.

Azuza001 wrote:
I think beserkers are better not in world eaters. I would rather get -1 to hit and run them up or advance and charge over that 1 extra attack per guy.

As for popping the strat to hit on 5's with the orks, thats a win if he is going to do that on those units. He can only pop it once per phase and 1 squad of boys (or the big gun) getting it is definitely preferable to what it should be popped on (lootas).

Has anyone actually ever considered, Brazen Beasts Berzerkers?


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 grouchoben wrote:
CSM have chain cannons now, a weapon designed to delete orks. An endless cacophony havoc squad with a chaos lord for rerolls kills 33 orks on average and costs 150pts and 2cps. If you want to delete two blobs go votlw and split fire, and you'll kill 44, with the remaining 16 fleeing (can't say I blame them).

As long as you can properly screen and protect them, that one squad will take care of your Boyz problem. Just to reiterate, that's 150pts of easy-to-hide marines killing 420pts of orks in one round of shooting.

222pts * the Lord has a price Tag.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
I think beserkers are better not in world eaters. I would rather get -1 to hit and run them up or advance and charge over that 1 extra attack per guy.

As for popping the strat to hit on 5's with the orks, thats a win if he is going to do that on those units. He can only pop it once per phase and 1 squad of boys (or the big gun) getting it is definitely preferable to what it should be popped on (lootas).

Has anyone actually ever considered, Brazen Beasts Berzerkers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:
CSM have chain cannons now, a weapon designed to delete orks. An endless cacophony havoc squad with a chaos lord for rerolls kills 33 orks on average and costs 150pts and 2cps. If you want to delete two blobs go votlw and split fire, and you'll kill 44, with the remaining 16 fleeing (can't say I blame them).

As long as you can properly screen and protect them, that one squad will take care of your Boyz problem. Just to reiterate, that's 150pts of easy-to-hide marines killing 420pts of orks in one round of shooting.

222pts * the Lord has a price Tag.

although presumably you'll be taking a Lord anyway.

IMHO CSMs, and Black Legion in specific seems highly designed to enchourage a herohammer approuch to list building

True but the REROLL still has a pricetag don't ignore that just because " oh you'll anyway field them" because babysitting squads means that you can0t babysitt others. (depdening on aura size, etc but you get the point'.)

grouchoben you absolutely right, against such broken armies I should use every weapon at my disposal... ofc Deathskull have a *** 6++ so I would kill less

I think berzerkers are quite solid even outside WE, you can buff them with psychic and normally they always overkill, so that attack less is just fine, what they need is mobility via warptime and protection via apostle


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Anyway I cant ask you to speak in general any longer, let's try to put all together:


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [42 PL, -1CP, 797pts] ++
Rules: Daemonic Ritual, The Warmaster's Legion (Black Legion)

Council of Traitors [-1CP]

Dark Disciples [1 PL, 10pts]: 2x Dark Disciple

Legion: Black Legion

+ HQ +

Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 183pts]: 2. Indomitable, Hellforged sword, Intoxicating Elixir, Warlord, Warp bolter, Warptime, Wings
Slaanesh

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 100pts]: 1. Veteran Raider, Council of Traitors, Illusory Supplication, No Chaos Mark

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: No Chaos Mark
9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: No Chaos Mark
9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: No Chaos Mark
9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
Cultist Champion: Autogun

+ Elites +

Khorne Berzerkers [5 PL, 103pts]: Icon of Wrath
Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
4x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 4x Chainaxe

Khorne Berzerkers [5 PL, 103pts]: Icon of Wrath
Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
4x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 4x Chainaxe

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 74pts]: Combi-bolter, Combi-bolter, No Chaos Mark

Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 74pts]: Combi-bolter, Combi-bolter, No Chaos Mark

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [38 PL, 703pts] ++
Rules: Daemonic Ritual, The Warmaster's Legion (Black Legion)

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: Black Legion

+ HQ +

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: 5. Trusted War-leader, Bolt pistol, Council of Traitors, Delightful Agonies, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh, Warptime

+ Heavy Support +

Havocs [7 PL, 130pts]: No Chaos Mark
Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Chainsword
2x Havoc w/ autocannon: 2x Autocannon
2x Havoc w/ reaper chaincannon: 2x Reaper chaincannon

Havocs [7 PL, 130pts]: No Chaos Mark
Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Chainsword
2x Havoc w/ autocannon: 2x Autocannon
2x Havoc w/ reaper chaincannon: 2x Reaper chaincannon

Obliterators [18 PL, 345pts]: No Chaos Mark, 3x Obliterator




Automatically Appended Next Post:
ofc everything is Slaanesh

I got 5 havocs and 5 Berz in a rhino each, so they are protected and Havocs get that little more mobility I think is needed with Chain cannos... otherwise I could just have them in a ruin, what do you think?

The Indomitable Prince is a beast, with warptime I can go Character hunting and do not worry much about retaliation since he s so protected

Finally the Oblitarator combo is still vital, I need to one shot Battlewagons as soon as possible, since they deal to much damage... the only question is: if I have the SECOND TURN should I DS them or field them? Keep in mind that orks have the mobility to engage them even when screened and the shooting to kill them all in a turn (if I have no 5+++)

would make the havocs homogenous and in the detachment that allows to shoot once out of turn in the enemy movement phase instead.

it could help me with the autocannon, but with just 24 range chaincannons won't have nothing to to shoot at. Remember that bonebreakers have 12+ 4d6 charge and boyz can get teleported everywhere

How does it have 4d6 charge? And its just a cc truck, you should be able to nuke that with the oblits easy.

Azuza001 wrote:
How does it have 4d6 charge? And its just a cc truck, you should be able to nuke that with the oblits easy.

1d6 advance, 3d6 charge.

How is it getting 3d6 charge? The strat raming speed ok, but how can it advance and charge?

Havocs and msu zerkers sharing a rhino is awesome! Drop the havocs, giving them a huge move to get to a good position, then speed forward with 5 nutters in the back. Only problem is how temptimg a target that rhino is if you don't get 1st turn. Best in pairs for redundancy.

And non-WE zerkers are fine imo too. As you say they tend to overkill as it is.

Azuza001 wrote:
How is it getting 3d6 charge? The strat raming speed ok, but how can it advance and charge?

Defkilla Wartrike.

 grouchoben wrote:

And non-WE zerkers are fine imo too. As you say they tend to overkill as it is.

Red Corsair zerkers are bonkers. The advance + charge more than makes up for the lost attacks.

Yes, the Bonebreaker has that absurd combo, sry if I don't explain everything, I just assume you are all knowing pros! Oblits will make short work of them, but my adversary could keep them out of range and destroy my Oblits in a turn, and if I DS I have to wait a turn, which if I have the second might be a huge issue. What should I do if I get second?


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Yeah MSU berzerk is interesting, but maybe they dont have much of damage, I'll try to have 9 on them in a rhino and 5x2 chain havocs in the other. That's right, rhino are juicy target, but I have the Apostle with 5++ aura, the possibility to hide them and pop smokes in my turn

Just a suggestion, I know it is not new or sexy, but you can get 3 bikes with 2 flamers and 1 combi-flamer for only 89 points. That is 3d6 flamer shots, 12 combi-bolter shots as well. While you are not bring down the entire mob of orks with that, it seems that these could be used to get the numbers down to something more reasonable, and they are cheap, and easy to hide. Plus any shots wasted on the bikes are shots not going into your better units. Just a thought.

The problem i see with Brazen Beasts is that they're a chapter supposedly built around demon engines, yet in GWs stupidity they FAQed it so you can't take a MoP with them, which seems vital to overcoming the flaws with demon engines. And it's not balanced out by anything because again GW decided CSM legion traits should apply only to infantry, unlike almost every other army except loyalist marines.

That was originally the army i was building until the FAQ, so i switched to Hounds of Abaddon so I could have MoP and the warlord trait that seems to be the only way to keep a Discordant alive. I can't see him living past turn 1 any other way.

For just a bunch of berzerkers though, and if you leave the demon engines at home, that trait does seem pretty cool. Whoever mentioned Red Corsairs though, that advance and charge is an interesting idea, could you get away with not having a rhino for each berzerker squad that way you think?

 DarklyDreaming wrote:
Yes, the Bonebreaker has that absurd combo, sry if I don't explain everything, I just assume you are all knowing pros! Oblits will make short work of them, but my adversary could keep them out of range and destroy my Oblits in a turn, and if I DS I have to wait a turn, which if I have the second might be a huge issue. What should I do if I get second?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah MSU berzerk is interesting, but maybe they dont have much of damage, I'll try to have 9 on them in a rhino and 5x2 chain havocs in the other. That's right, rhino are juicy target, but I have the Apostle with 5++ aura, the possibility to hide them and pop smokes in my turn

Honestly brother forget the DA. Its mostly a trap unit and theres not much in that list to get return on investment particularly at 1.5k. Same with the rhinos. IMO those are more for 2k. Right now I feel that latest list is short on units/bodies and could use some changes to the firebase.. for example the mixed weaponry and lack of meaningful ranged attacks if you go first. I think that list plays into the ork players strengths more than ours.

Do you play ITC rules and does your group use forgeworld?