Homeskillet wrote: I play Alpha Legion primarily, but want to use Abaddon. The model is too cool. Anyone have tips on how best to use him?
I think he and BL strats work well with big blobs of possessed. Makes them fearless, he makes them more potent and they're all going in the same direction.
It's a trap to hold him back with a gunline as he is a monster and needs to be chopping up loyalists!
If you run him, 40 possessed, a greater possessed and a master of possession. You could run that with half an Alpha legion gunline for a pretty potent list.
Homeskillet wrote: I play Alpha Legion primarily, but want to use Abaddon. The model is too cool. Anyone have tips on how best to use him?
I think he and BL strats work well with big blobs of possessed. Makes them fearless, he makes them more potent and they're all going in the same direction.
It's a trap to hold him back with a gunline as he is a monster and needs to be chopping up loyalists!
If you run him, 40 possessed, a greater possessed and a master of possession. You could run that with half an Alpha legion gunline for a pretty potent list.
Homeskillet wrote: I play Alpha Legion primarily, but want to use Abaddon. The model is too cool. Anyone have tips on how best to use him?
I think he and BL strats work well with big blobs of possessed. Makes them fearless, he makes them more potent and they're all going in the same direction.
It's a trap to hold him back with a gunline as he is a monster and needs to be chopping up loyalists!
If you run him, 40 possessed, a greater possessed and a master of possession. You could run that with half an Alpha legion gunline for a pretty potent list.
Possessed?
Tbh he is also a nice terminator Lord.
Yeah I had wanted to do a big Terminator squad, but they die so easily right now.
I've seen a lot of tactics for Nurgle and Slaanesh listed, but does anyone have any interesting Tzeentch combos/tactics?
The only one i could think of is an allied thousand sons Mutalith Vortex Beast, it's buffs should effect tzeentch marked daemon engines. Add in a tzeentch herald (or psycher of choice) casting flickering flames on your maulerfiend.
I don't know if that's really worthwhile, but it reads like it would work.
Karnij wrote: I've seen a lot of tactics for Nurgle and Slaanesh listed, but does anyone have any interesting Tzeentch combos/tactics?
The only one i could think of is an allied thousand sons Mutalith Vortex Beast, it's buffs should effect tzeentch marked daemon engines. Add in a tzeentch herald (or psycher of choice) casting flickering flames on your maulerfiend.
I don't know if that's really worthwhile, but it reads like it would work.
Any other ideas for a Tzeentch marked CSM army?
Flickering Flames Obliterators (maybe even Daemonspark as well). Throw in VotLW and you can forget about their strength and reserve a reroll (perhaps from Gaze of Fate) for the guns’ AP and Damage.
Boon of Change Possessed
Changeling giving a bunch of Daemon Engines a 6+++. Could also do that with Possessed and Oblits. Possessed are already an interesting candidate for a gimmicky Fabius Bile list, given their modest capacity to absorb MWs; giving them a guaranteed FNP that works in your movement phase can save you one. Throwing Boon at them as well as the Vigilus stuff can make them pretty scary.
If you’re building a list that has a bunch of Ld attacking stuff, Treason of Tzeentch can get nasty. It also means the Ld gimmick actually has a use against fearless armies - three Night Lords units getting stuck in can give you a modest chance of leashing a Swarmlord (and making it run into charge range of your units; you *can* treat it as if it’s one of your units, but RAW you don’t *have* to. Eat your own Tyrant Guard whilst we punch you, Swarmie).
Rubric Marines that arrive via Termite can stay in it the turn they arrive. That’s a possible way to deliver a flamer Squad.
So with disco lords being amazing, a demon engine lord of war is a potential competitive pick now. I'm caught between the brass scorpion and the Lord of skulls. Does anyone have any opinions on either?
buddha wrote: So with disco lords being amazing, a demon engine lord of war is a potential competitive pick now. I'm caught between the brass scorpion and the Lord of skulls. Does anyone have any opinions on either?
Both are strong candidates for a Dark Apostle to give -1 to be hit. Brass Scorpion is pretty good, especially if it spearheads your advance against a psyker-heavy army and you have a Daemons detachment, but LoS can benefit from Warptime and Diabolic Strength to get stuck in T1 and really leverage that reverse-deteriorating A stat, can mow down little stuff, and won’t ever need a negotiation on using FW units.
So, if you’re going pure Khorne, BS brings a useful niche utility, whilst polytheist armies can super-charge the LoS.
On the subject of army synergies: I think both are strong candidates for a Supreme Command Soulforged Pack with a Lord Discordant or two, a Master of the Soulforges Warpsmith, and a Master of Possession to punch some healing out of said Warpsmith. Also, if you’ve got a Decimator, this is good a formation for it.
And, ironically, a Slaanesh Daemons Vanguard to run alongside and get a Fiend into contact with an Infantry unit you’ve piled into.
Hey my dudes, I've been slowly building and tweaking my list over the pas months, and so far you guys have been a great help. Overall I'm pretty solid on my current build, but if you see anything that's obviously terrible or out of place, I'd appreciate the input. I'm trying to straddle the line between being fun and not losing all the time, not intended for tournaments. Cheers.
Red Corsairs Battalion
Huron Blackheart (warlord), death hex or infernal gaze
Terminator Sorcerer w/ relic combi melta, force axe, presience, agonies
3x5 man CSM w/ combi plas, chain axe, chain cannon
2000pts, 17(-1) CP.
Tactics I think are pretty basic. Huron follows CSMs, Lord babysits the hellbrutes and defiler, Sorcerer drops in with the termis and oblits, DP roams where he is needed, cultists for screen. CP spent liberally on VotLW, Cacophony, Fire Frenzy, Demonforge.
If any of this sticks out as being naff, or if you think I should tweak anything, let me know. Cheers dudes.
Not Online!!! wrote: So a bit of a mind experiment, if you were to run a themeatic undead csm force, built on - to hit, how would you go about it?
Are we talking ghosts or zombies or skeletons? I saw a Thousand Sons army on parade that had Nighthaunt stuff haunting the armour, that was cool.
You could build something similar with CSM and go with Alpha Legion, saying that the ghosts conceal them from view and narrate the deployment strat as the mists concealing their movements.
You could do it with Crimson Slaughter, their whole fluff thing is they’re being tormented by ghostly spirits and it’s evoked in their traits and strat, the latter being a pretty good one that inflicts minuses to hit, potentially on multiple units.
Miasma can be narrated as a mist (as can the DA prayer), and if you’re going Nurgle there’s marginal synergy with the Icon of Despair and the (IMO terrible) CS War.otrd Trait. Nurgle also opens the door to a DG force bringing zombies to add to the undead jamboree. Who can benefit from MBH cover aura.
The Oblits/Gnarlmaw combo could work for you as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And on a separate matter: Brigades really are dead, aren’t they? In the early days of no traits, I tried bringing a Chaos Brigade. It yielded the same CP as two Battalions and three of Vanguard, Outriders, and Spearhead, only with 3-5 HQ instead of 7-12. Then, traits came along, and a lot of us built DEITY lists with one or two Legions present. Then, detachments got different CP yields, with the result that taking a soup of five detachments yielded *more* CP than the Brigade. Now, we’ve got specialist detachments that mean that even if you’re going mono-Legion, a single brigade isn’t as good as lots of separate detachments.
I’ve been doing up my Dark Imperium and Shadowspear Loyalists as Novamarines, and they’ll pull off a decent Brigade of Indomitus Crusaders, but my Chaos stuff feels like a big game even as a single Legion is going to want at least two, maybe three or four of our specialist detachments. I...actually feel spoiled for choice, in some ways.
Not Online!!! wrote: So a bit of a mind experiment, if you were to run a themeatic undead csm force, built on - to hit, how would you go about it?
Are we talking ghosts or zombies or skeletons? I saw a Thousand Sons army on parade that had Nighthaunt stuff haunting the armour, that was cool.
You could build something similar with CSM and go with Alpha Legion, saying that the ghosts conceal them from view and narrate the deployment strat as the mists concealing their movements.
You could do it with Crimson Slaughter, their whole fluff thing is they’re being tormented by ghostly spirits and it’s evoked in their traits and strat, the latter being a pretty good one that inflicts minuses to hit, potentially on multiple units.
Miasma can be narrated as a mist (as can the DA prayer), and if you’re going Nurgle there’s marginal synergy with the Icon of Despair and the (IMO terrible) CS War.otrd Trait. Nurgle also opens the door to a DG force bringing zombies to add to the undead jamboree. Who can benefit from MBH cover aura.
The Oblits/Gnarlmaw combo could work for you as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Brigades really are dead, aren’t they? In the early days of no traits, I tried bringing a Chaos Brigade. It yielded the same CP as two Battalions and three of Vanguard, Outriders, and Spearhead, only with 3-5 HQ instead of 7-12. Then, traits came along, and a lot of us built DEITY lists with one or two Legions present. Then, detachments got different CP yields, with the result that taking a soup of five detachments yielded *more* CP the Brigade. Now, we’ve got specialist detachments that mean that even in you’re going mono-Legion, a single brigade isn’t as good as lots of separate detachments.
I’ve been doing up my Dark Imperium and Shadowspear Loyalists as Novamarines, and they’ll pull off a decent Brigade of Indomitus Crusaders, but my Chaos stuff feels like a big game as a single Legion is going to want at least two, maybe three or four of our specialist detachments. I...actually feel spoiled for choice, in some ways.
Ghosts actually, as for brigades a RC brigade nets 15 cp two battalions net 16cp. Without the need to field subpar tax units.
The only place i'd ever run a brigade would be my renegades and heretics and even there a double battalion is the better option.
Well, AL and CS both seem pretty appropriate. CS Trait isn’t as good as RedCor one giving guaranteed CP up front, but it’s explicitly characterful. If the marines are themselves ghosts, then TS or AL (or, perhaps, NL) are slightly more thematic.
lindsay40k wrote: Well, AL and CS both seem pretty appropriate. CS Trait isn’t as good as RedCor one giving guaranteed CP up front, but it’s explicitly characterful. If the marines are themselves ghosts, then TS or AL (or, perhaps, NL) are slightly more thematic.
So far tought of AL, stacking with the -1 to hit from DA.
The DA, well this thing
Spoiler:
Will be Necromancers of some sort:
So far i consider the following:
DA
2x10 CSM each with a missile launcher
20 Cultists (Poxwalker zombie ghosts)
(500) on a hole)
As Elites i toyed around with plague marines, converted out of the AoS ghosts and marines run as plague marines or possesed. (probably better to pick plague marines)
Hi I'm thinking of expanding into death guard just because they have some great looking units. Obviously they will be allied into my black legion force which to be honest is pretty rounded right now.
Does anyone have any recommendations? My thoughts when I was originally contemplating this was going for a DG battalion as their troops are probably superior to CSM although I've been getting much more mileage out of 5 man units with Chaincannons lately.
I really like plague burst crawlers and bloat drones, obviously I'm only really looking at DG exclusive models.
Anybody recommend a simple battalion to ally in and what synergy I can exploit between DG and Black Legion?
The crawlers will give me good long range cover and the majority of the DG infantry are robust and strong at mid range so I'm thinking maybe faster glass cannon BL units might be a good blend. Maybe bikes and berserkers? What synergy can I get going with master of possession and nurgle marked possessed?
Only counter I think is red corsair hordes, but then I can't compete with objectives.. from death guard I could get more resilient units, but the firepower and mobility feels just too overwhelming. And that stupid deny opponent strat is hard on RC, if you get denied three turns a row either RC recycle or endless cacophony.. Any ideas how to approach that particular list?
Only counter I think is red corsair hordes, but then I can't compete with objectives.. from death guard I could get more resilient units, but the firepower and mobility feels just too overwhelming. And that stupid deny opponent strat is hard on RC, if you get denied three turns a row either RC recycle or endless cacophony.. Any ideas how to approach that particular list?
Alternatively i can offer 3 things really if you regard FW as an option:
A: Get yourself a renegade commander and 3 hydra AA tanks, clocks in at 304 pts.
B: Sicarian
C: Hellblade
If not, equipp some CSm squads with Missile launchers for the Flakk missile stratagem, consider a DA with +1?, Use a blob of cultists aswell, so he can't deny all recycling?
Autocannon havocs might help? Might.
Anybody got a picture of the new terminators alongside the old ones? Do they fit in okay if you had a mixed squad or do the new ones tower over the old?
Tempted to pick up a box just because they look great but they're probably not gonna see much table time anyway...
Abaddon303 wrote: Anybody got a picture of the new terminators alongside the old ones? Do they fit in okay if you had a mixed squad or do the new ones tower over the old?
Tempted to pick up a box just because they look great but they're probably not gonna see much table time anyway...
Don't have a picture, but I can tell you they are around roughly the same height but the newer ones are much beefier in terms of mass. I don't think mine look too out of place next to the newer ones but you might have your own opinion.
For my Khornate battalion, should I go with Crimson Slaughter or World Eaters? I'm thinking of running two units of Khorne-marked CSM and a unit of berserkers, with Kharn as one of the HQ's.
ArcaneHorror wrote: For my Khornate battalion, should I go with Crimson Slaughter or World Eaters? I'm thinking of running two units of Khorne-marked CSM and a unit of berserkers, with Kharn as one of the HQ's.
Well, for that to be a CS Battalion, you’d have to drop Kharn and add another Troops unit
What's the best way for building a DP as part of a Red Corsairs List? I've been going for Malefic Talons with Intoxicating Elixir, but in terms of Warlord Trait and Psychic Power I'm not sure what to go for.
blood reaper wrote: What's the best way for building a DP as part of a Red Corsairs List? I've been going for Malefic Talons with Intoxicating Elixir, but in terms of Warlord Trait and Psychic Power I'm not sure what to go for.
Depends on the rest of your list.
If you’ve got plenty of psykers, or are about to tango with a Knight, self-casting Diabolic Strength can be good. If you’re planning to Boromir something with a solid invuln, Death Hex can be good. If you’re low on psykers, Warptime makes a lot of sense.
Exalted Champion and Flames of Spite are both strong and perhaps more dependent on your opponent than your list. If your planned main victim has an odd number of wounds, FoS can pip you over - and it helps bypass invuln. EC is a bit more multi-purpose and reliable. Reaver Lord I can see working in a list containing someone who’ll benefit from the extra Relic (Maelstrom’s Bite, Chiropteran Wings, Murder Sword, and Daemon’s Eye mainly come to mind there), and especially with a Heldrake or two (and perhaps some Daemons of Slaanesh) that join your Warptimed DP to shake some extra attacks out of some unfortunate Lieutenant and survive the backlash.
Really quick note on Treason of Tzeentch from a post further up the page ^
It basically never works in competitive. This is firstly because it specifies the target cannot be the enemy warlord which seriously reduces the available worthy targets. Second, and most importantly, your opponent can just stand potential targets within 1" of a friendly model. As soon as you cast ToT your opponent's friendly model becomes hostile to the target. Since you are within 1" you get locked in combat preventing the target from moving, shooting or charging.
ToT got thrown around as an idea to stop Castellans when they were still tearing through everything but to shut it down it's as simple as keeping a Guardsman within 1". You can be damn sure that Guardsman will quickly turn into a fine pink mist once you cast ToT but there are much easier ways of accomplishing that.
Want to put together a 1000 point World Eaters army, but I need help. I haven't ventured into the realm of Chaos yet which also means that I don't really know how WE play. I'm using a lot of my Dark Vengeance models on an Alpha Legion army I'm putting together slowly, but I guess since you can use Cultists in really any army, this is what I have available:
Chaos Lord
Dark Apostle
Exalted Champion
20 Cultists
12 Berzerkers
That's all I have so far. Anyone be willing to help me get to somewhere near 1000 and fit into how the WE play?
Reaper havocs go into the rhino. Sorcerer for drop invul for shooting. Csm for there is more where they came from to get those objectives and withdraw from unpleasant combat. Helbrutes are backfield sheriffs and distraction.
Dropped venom crawler and lord discordant for more shooting..
ServiceGames wrote: Want to put together a 1000 point World Eaters army, but I need help. I haven't ventured into the realm of Chaos yet which also means that I don't really know how WE play. I'm using a lot of my Dark Vengeance models on an Alpha Legion army I'm putting together slowly, but I guess since you can use Cultists in really any army, this is what I have available:
Chaos Lord Dark Apostle Exalted Champion 20 Cultists 12 Berzerkers
That's all I have so far. Anyone be willing to help me get to somewhere near 1000 and fit into how the WE play?
Thanks
SG
Hmm, difficult you would need more mobility, that is a main drawback for WE.
Probably i would add 10 more cultists since the recycling is alsoa mobility option.
2 Rhinos would be decent. probably another 6 berzerkers?.
You'd need also some Firesupport, and thankfully WE do love AC's so maybee go for the fluffy route with havocs with 4 AC's (it's also comparatively a cheap squad at 110pts)
Gangland wrote: I’d say get a rhino and a Land Raider. Get a few more bezerkers and spread them between the rhino and land raider.
A landraider? Off all things?
Considering he is intending to play WE,meaning allready gimping himself, he should also just waste more then 25% of his list on a easily neutering option?
No, if anything:
HQ Lord Jumpack, 2 Chainswords, Warlord trait of Spitefull flames. (generates atleast 1 MW per fightphase that way) 93 + pts DA: -1 to hit prayer, if you really intend to field it. 100
Gangland wrote: I’d say get a rhino and a Land Raider. Get a few more bezerkers and spread them between the rhino and land raider.
A landraider?
Off all things?
Considering he is intending to play WE,meaning allready gimping himself, he should also just waste more then 25% of his list on a easily neutering option?
No, if anything:
HQ Lord Jumpack, (beatstick of choice) 93 + pts
DA: -1 to hit prayer, if you really intend to field it. 100
This list is good advice, some combat, some shooting and a good amount of bodies.
I'm not sure you can take an inferno combi-bolter on a rhino, I think they are only available for thousand sons. If so that will give you a handful of extra points to play with to equip your lord.
Gangland wrote: I’d say get a rhino and a Land Raider. Get a few more bezerkers and spread them between the rhino and land raider.
A landraider?
Off all things?
Considering he is intending to play WE,meaning allready gimping himself, he should also just waste more then 25% of his list on a easily neutering option?
No, if anything:
HQ Lord Jumpack, (beatstick of choice) 93 + pts
DA: -1 to hit prayer, if you really intend to field it. 100
This list is good advice, some combat, some shooting and a good amount of bodies.
I'm not sure you can take an inferno combi-bolter on a rhino, I think they are only available for thousand sons. If so that will give you a handful of extra points to play with to equip your lord.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So i fixed the list up and added in the beatsticks, 2 chainswords, and gave the lord the warlord trait spitefull flames.
Statistics dictate that you should generate atleast one MW1 per fight.
Hang on. What’s the point in generating +1MW per combat round when most of the actual hits are going to bounce off? I’m pretty sure a power axe is going to do more damage; trades a sixth of a MW for better wound rolls against T4,5,8 and better AP against anything that’s not a storm shield. Or, better yet, a relic weapon. Either way, you can still take an extra Chainsword for a chance of a cheeky bonus MW.
lindsay40k wrote: Hang on. What’s the point in generating +1MW per combat round when most of the actual hits are going to bounce off? I’m pretty sure a power axe is going to do more damage; trades a sixth of a MW for better wound rolls against T4,5,8 and better AP against anything that’s not a storm shield. Or, better yet, a relic weapon. Either way, you can still take an extra Chainsword for a chance of a cheeky bonus MW.
Actually, a chainaxe is fluffy and one point totally forgot that chain axe Chainsword it is then, would also put the List at 1000 pts.
You could just drop the plasma gun off the havocs (often won't be in range anyway) and use the 22 points to take either a pair of lightning claws and 2 dark disciples (best weapons for flames of spite imo) or a thunder hammer (as there is no other good anto tank in the list).
small_gods wrote: You could just drop the plasma gun off the havocs (often won't be in range anyway) and use the 22 points to take either a pair of lightning claws and 2 dark disciples (best weapons for flames of spite imo) or a thunder hammer (as there is no other good anto tank in the list).
At this point that is preference, i personally don't run into that knight/ tank heavy lists all that often.
I also doubt a single Hammerlord would solve an issue a knight is for this list.
However beeing WE atleast he get's access to VotWL which probably would be used rather liberally against a knight.
Also the double fighting stratagem would be rather obsolete 90% of the time since as a WE we talk allready about more then enough attacks.
small_gods wrote: You could just drop the plasma gun off the havocs (often won't be in range anyway) and use the 22 points to take either a pair of lightning claws and 2 dark disciples (best weapons for flames of spite imo) or a thunder hammer (as there is no other good anto tank in the list).
At this point that is preference, i personally don't run into that knight/ tank heavy lists all that often.
I also doubt a single Hammerlord would solve an issue a knight is for this list.
However beeing WE atleast he get's access to VotWL which probably would be used rather liberally against a knight.
Also the double fighting stratagem would be rather obsolete 90% of the time since as a WE we talk allready about more then enough attacks.
Pretty much 50% of tournament lists I run into are knights , tau battle suits, AM tanks etc etc. Suppose it depends on who you're likely to face but 9 thunder hammer attacks with VotLW would be handy if facing arnour or LoW.
For a Demon engine heavy list that wants to use Brazen Beasts, am I missing out on psychic powers hard enough to warrent making a supreme command detachment for them? Things like warptime and most powers on the MoP are freat bonuses for an army like that. Or would it not be that much of a loss as it seems, if I go mono khorne?
vaklor4 wrote: For a Demon engine heavy list that wants to use Brazen Beasts, am I missing out on psychic powers hard enough to warrent making a supreme command detachment for them? Things like warptime and most powers on the MoP are freat bonuses for an army like that. Or would it not be that much of a loss as it seems, if I go mono khorne?
Some daemon relic (Crimson crown ) i belive could help you.
Warpsmiths and LoD can cover some weaknesses.
(you will probably require a lot of CP, so warpsmiths are doubly good in a way for strenghtening durability and beeing cheap HQ tax)
The special formation would be a must imo.
Maybe one or two DA's with +1 to hit?
vaklor4 wrote: For a Demon engine heavy list that wants to use Brazen Beasts, am I missing out on psychic powers hard enough to warrent making a supreme command detachment for them? Things like warptime and most powers on the MoP are freat bonuses for an army like that. Or would it not be that much of a loss as it seems, if I go mono khorne?
There's nothing stoppong you taking a brazen beast sorcerer or master of possession. It might not be super fluffy but you could have a complete mark of slanesh brazen beast army if you wanted. Although as others have said your probably better going for khorne daemon heralds for +1 str and reroll charge aura.
vaklor4 wrote: For a Demon engine heavy list that wants to use Brazen Beasts, am I missing out on psychic powers hard enough to warrent making a supreme command detachment for them? Things like warptime and most powers on the MoP are freat bonuses for an army like that. Or would it not be that much of a loss as it seems, if I go mono khorne?
There's nothing stoppong you taking a brazen beast sorcer or master of possession. It might not be super fluffy but you could have a complete mark of slanesh brazen beast army if you wanted. Although as others have said your probably better going for khorne daemon heralds for +1 str and reroll charge aura.
FAQ from GW says Brazen Beasts have to be Khornate.
vaklor4 wrote: For a Demon engine heavy list that wants to use Brazen Beasts, am I missing out on psychic powers hard enough to warrent making a supreme command detachment for them? Things like warptime and most powers on the MoP are freat bonuses for an army like that. Or would it not be that much of a loss as it seems, if I go mono khorne?
There's nothing stoppong you taking a brazen beast sorcer or master of possession. It might not be super fluffy but you could have a complete mark of slanesh brazen beast army if you wanted. Although as others have said your probably better going for khorne daemon heralds for +1 str and reroll charge aura.
FAQ from GW says Brazen Beasts have to be Khornate.
vaklor4 wrote: For a Demon engine heavy list that wants to use Brazen Beasts, am I missing out on psychic powers hard enough to warrent making a supreme command detachment for them? Things like warptime and most powers on the MoP are freat bonuses for an army like that. Or would it not be that much of a loss as it seems, if I go mono khorne?
There's nothing stoppong you taking a brazen beast sorcer or master of possession. It might not be super fluffy but you could have a complete mark of slanesh brazen beast army if you wanted. Although as others have said your probably better going for khorne daemon heralds for +1 str and reroll charge aura.
There is, Brazen Beasts are not allowed to field psykers.
As is the fact that the new renegades got god locked.
vaklor4 wrote: For a Demon engine heavy list that wants to use Brazen Beasts, am I missing out on psychic powers hard enough to warrent making a supreme command detachment for them? Things like warptime and most powers on the MoP are freat bonuses for an army like that. Or would it not be that much of a loss as it seems, if I go mono khorne?
There's nothing stoppong you taking a brazen beast sorcerer or master of possession. It might not be super fluffy but you could have a complete mark of slanesh brazen beast army if you wanted. Although as others have said your probably better going for khorne daemon heralds for +1 str and reroll charge aura.
I wish that were true. As soon as the codex dropped I went out and got everything and started painting up a brazen beasts army based around daemon engines led by a MoP. Then they nuked it in the faq.
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: 2. Indomitable, Autocannon, Mark of Slaanesh, Mecha-serpents, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, Master of the Soulforges, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Warpsmith [4 PL, 62pts]: Combi-bolter, Flamer, Meltagun, No Chaos Mark, Power axe
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: 2. Indomitable, Autocannon, Mark of Slaanesh, Mecha-serpents, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, Master of the Soulforges, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Warpsmith [4 PL, 62pts]: Combi-bolter, Flamer, Meltagun, No Chaos Mark, Power axe
Hmm, isn't a Warpsmiths markable by Slaanesh, because that is enough dakka imo to justify it.
As someone that has that exact setup of decimator i can't for effectiveness reccomend the siege claw, 2 butchercannons are better.
I am not a huge fan of the flamers on the bikes.
Considering that Combibolters are better average hits and range and price i feel they are unnescessary.
As far as my most recent army list which I'm still putting together (I haven't even assembled all of the models) involves this: One battalion of World Eaters with the Khorne mark including a unit of berserkers, one battalion of Death Guard, and one battalion of Khorne daemons including three units of bloodletters, one or two bloodmasters, and Skulltaker. I plan to deepstrike the daemon battalion as early as possible. To anyone here, does this general concept for an army seem valid? Also, I'm thinking of adding a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought to my army (not sure to which battalion) and I'm up in the air if I want to give it butcher cannons or soul burners. I know that the cannons have great range and firepower, but that in some ways, the soul burners are more powerful. Which one would probably be better, and which CSM battalion do you think I should put it and my Helbrute in?
ArcaneHorror wrote: As far as my most recent army list which I'm still putting together (I haven't even assembled all of the models) involves this: One battalion of World Eaters with the Khorne mark including a unit of berserkers, one battalion of Death Guard, and one battalion of Khorne daemons including three units of bloodletters, one or two bloodmasters, and Skulltaker. I plan to deepstrike the daemon battalion as early as possible. To anyone here, does this general concept for an army seem valid? Also, I'm thinking of adding a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought to my army (not sure to which battalion) and I'm up in the air if I want to give it butcher cannons or soul burners. I know that the cannons have great range and firepower, but that in some ways, the soul burners are more powerful. Which one would probably be better, and which CSM battalion do you think I should put it and my Helbrute in?
1. I mean WE cuts you out from the most powerfull stuff CSM have. It can work, it just needs alot of mobility options. Also a battalion filled out of what?
2.DG are good imo, they will give you the needed durability.
3. How much points, remember that this can make or break your army.
the concept can work, altough i doubt WE would be good for it.
1. I mean WE cuts you out from the most powerfull stuff CSM have. It can work, it just needs alot of mobility options. Also a battalion filled out of what?
Khorne Berzerkers armed only with chain swords and chain axes, a chaos lord or two, either a Helbrute with heavy bolters or lascannons and a powerfist, or a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought with butcher cannons or soul burners (not sure which I want to place with which battalion; Khorne, Tzeentch, or Nurgle), and good ol' Kharn. Instead of the daemons, I think I'll have a Tzeentch battalion with Tzaangors (regular, Enlightened, Skyfires, and a Shaman), possibly a Lord of Change and an exalted sorcerer (converted Gaunt Summoner on foot).
2.DG are good imo, they will give you the needed durability.
I thought they would. Ideally, I would have plague marines, Typhus, a malignant plaguecaster, and a lord of contagion or daemon prince (a regular daemon prince with Nurgle mark and DG allegiance, not the nut sack chin guy).
3. How much points, remember that this can make or break your army.
I haven't calculated them yet, which I know is crucial. I'll probably have to say goodbye to a Tzeentch and/or Nurgle HQ unit (I really want to keep Kharn, Typhus, the sorcerer, and one lord [I'll be converting an AoS Skullgrinder to a WE Chaos Lord armed, with the swinging hammer as a thunder hammer and a plasma pistol on his hip]).
the concept can work, altough i doubt WE would be good for it.
What about with berzerkers as the main troops? They're vicious up close, especially when armed with two chain weapons.
Would this make for a decent armylist for friendly games?
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment Legion: Black Legion
Chaos Lord: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter, Mark of Slaanesh
Dark Apostle:Trusted War-leader, Council of Traitors, Illusory Supplication, Mark of Slaanesh, Dark Disciples
5x Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
5x Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
20x Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 17x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Reaper chaincannon
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Reaper chaincannon
Vanguard Detachment Legion: Black Legion
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour: Black-clad Brute, Combi-melta, Mark of Slaanesh, Power sword, Spineshiver Blade, Warlord
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: Indomitable, Combi-bolter, Council of Traitors, Delightful Agonies, Force stave, Mark of Slaanesh, Prescience
10x Terminators: Mark of Slaanesh, Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
Helbrute: Mark of Slaanesh, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon
Helbrute: Mark of Slaanesh, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon
Helbrute: Mark of Slaanesh, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon
3x Obliterator: Mark of Slaanesh
Total Points: 2000
The Chaos Lord would be used to babysit the Plasma wielding squads of CSM while the Dark Apostle will be used to give the three Helbrutes some added defense.
I'm unsure whether or not I should let the Terminator Sorcerer teleport in with the Terminator Squad and the Terminator Lord or if it would be better to keep him on the table from round one.
The Obliterators are probably going to be teleported into the game, either to hold an objective or to aide the plasma onslaught from the terminators.
The CSM squads will be used to hold down objectives.
The Helbrutes are primarily there to look good and draw fire. If they manage to kill something along the way it would make for a nice bonus.
Does this seem like a prudent use of my army or would it better utilised in some other way and/or with other units in it?
1. I mean WE cuts you out from the most powerfull stuff CSM have. It can work, it just needs alot of mobility options. Also a battalion filled out of what?
Khorne Berzerkers armed only with chain swords and chain axes, a chaos lord or two, either a Helbrute with heavy bolters or lascannons and a powerfist, or a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought with butcher cannons or soul burners (not sure which I want to place with which battalion; Khorne, Tzeentch, or Nurgle), and good ol' Kharn. Instead of the daemons, I think I'll have a Tzeentch battalion with Tzaangors (regular, Enlightened, Skyfires, and a Shaman), possibly a Lord of Change and an exalted sorcerer (converted Gaunt Summoner on foot).
2.DG are good imo, they will give you the needed durability.
I thought they would. Ideally, I would have plague marines, Typhus, a malignant plaguecaster, and a lord of contagion or daemon prince (a regular daemon prince with Nurgle mark and DG allegiance, not the nut sack chin guy).
3. How much points, remember that this can make or break your army.
I haven't calculated them yet, which I know is crucial. I'll probably have to say goodbye to a Tzeentch and/or Nurgle HQ unit (I really want to keep Kharn, Typhus, the sorcerer, and one lord [I'll be converting an AoS Skullgrinder to a WE Chaos Lord armed, with the swinging hammer as a thunder hammer and a plasma pistol on his hip]).
the concept can work, altough i doubt WE would be good for it.
What about with berzerkers as the main troops? They're vicious up close, especially when armed with two chain weapons.
The problem is not that Berzerkers aren't good, the problem is with their Mobility, which is bad. Rhinos might help but that is also more points. If you can cast warptime, the things allready changing but again WE can't have psykers.
Also berzerkers are not particular sturdy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tinidiablo wrote: Would this make for a decent armylist for friendly games?
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment Legion: Black Legion
Chaos Lord: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter, Mark of Slaanesh
Dark Apostle:Trusted War-leader, Council of Traitors, Illusory Supplication, Mark of Slaanesh, Dark Disciples
5x Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
5x Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
20x Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 17x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Reaper chaincannon
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Reaper chaincannon
Vanguard Detachment Legion: Black Legion
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour: Black-clad Brute, Combi-melta, Mark of Slaanesh, Power sword, Spineshiver Blade, Warlord
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: Indomitable, Combi-bolter, Council of Traitors, Delightful Agonies, Force stave, Mark of Slaanesh, Prescience
10x Terminators: Mark of Slaanesh, Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
Helbrute: Mark of Slaanesh, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon
Helbrute: Mark of Slaanesh, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon
Helbrute: Mark of Slaanesh, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon
3x Obliterator: Mark of Slaanesh
Total Points: 2000
The Chaos Lord would be used to babysit the Plasma wielding squads of CSM while the Dark Apostle will be used to give the three Helbrutes some added defense.
I'm unsure whether or not I should let the Terminator Sorcerer teleport in with the Terminator Squad and the Terminator Lord or if it would be better to keep him on the table from round one.
The Obliterators are probably going to be teleported into the game, either to hold an objective or to aide the plasma onslaught from the terminators.
The CSM squads will be used to hold down objectives.
The Helbrutes are primarily there to look good and draw fire. If they manage to kill something along the way it would make for a nice bonus.
Does this seem like a prudent use of my army or would it better utilised in some other way and/or with other units in it?
Correct me if i am wrong, but shouldn't the first battalion be RC?
Else the 20 man blob does not make sense and you'd be better off with more MSU.
Correct me if i am wrong, but shouldn't the first battalion be RC?
Else the 20 man blob does not make sense and you'd be better off with more MSU.
RC is short for Red Corsairs right? If so the reason for me keeping both detachments as Black Legion is just for fluff. I guess Red Corsairs is the better pick for such a large CSM unit due to More Where They Came From.
I was under the impression that it's good to have atleast one unit with some body count to it. That's the main reason why I made it so big. Would it be better to decrease it to 10 models so that I can keep the two Chaincannons or should I just drop it down to 5 models and 1 Chaincannon or just scrap it completely for a third minimum sized plasma squad?
The latter option would give me 202 point left over to spend. Would it be a good idea to put them into a Chaincannon-wielding Havoc unit with a combi-bolter on the champion? The leftover 50 points could then be invested in a pair of Spawns or something more prudent.
Correct me if i am wrong, but shouldn't the first battalion be RC?
Else the 20 man blob does not make sense and you'd be better off with more MSU.
RC is short for Red Corsairs right? If so the reason for me keeping both detachments as Black Legion is just for fluff. I guess Red Corsairs is the better pick for such a large CSM unit due to More Where They Came From.
I was under the impression that it's good to have atleast one unit with some body count to it. That's the main reason why I made it so big. Would it be better to decrease it to 10 models so that I can keep the two Chaincannons or should I just drop it down to 5 models and 1 Chaincannon or just scrap it completely for a third minimum sized plasma squad?
The latter option would give me 202 point left over to spend. Would it be a good idea to put them into a Chaincannon-wielding Havoc unit with a combi-bolter on the champion? The leftover 50 points could then be invested in a pair of Spawns or something more prudent.
No the actual rules favour morale immune blobs (the later the csm of the bl aren't) or msu.
RC can run such units as you said because of the recycling stratagem. That said 10 man squad can work, 5 man still better for csm.
No the actual rules favour morale immune blobs (the later the csm of the bl aren't) or msu.
RC can run such units as you said because of the recycling stratagem. That said 10 man squad can work, 5 man still better for csm.
I see, thanks for putting me straight! I think I'll scrap the large unit in favour of a third minimum sized plasma squad and use the leftover points for a squad of Chaincannon Havocs then.
No the actual rules favour morale immune blobs (the later the csm of the bl aren't) or msu.
RC can run such units as you said because of the recycling stratagem. That said 10 man squad can work, 5 man still better for csm.
I see, thanks for putting me straight! I think I'll scrap the large unit in favour of a third minimum sized plasma squad and use the leftover points for a squad of Chaincannon Havocs then.
That should work.
Friendly list can also however easily run 10 man squads in csm.
So meh, chose to your liking.
I tried out 2 venomcrawlers along with 2 Lord DIsordants in a game yesterday. They look cool, but honestly, they are a little bit too fragile. They are literally Rhinos with a 5++ save. And if you think that is good, I was facing a mixed imperium army of sisters, blood angels and AM and their sisters Rhino had a 4++ save!
It was a full daemon engine list btw, but suffered because the venomcrawlers were too fragile. In the same vein, LDs are too fragile as well. Unless you give them the indomitable warlord trait that halves their damage received.
You might as well compare a full daemon engine list to a full knight list (with some obligatory troop choices for objectives). Its the same thing. And I think while the daemon engine list is really fluffy, the full knight list would do better. Its like a whole army of T8 compared to a whole army of mostly T6 and T7.
And the other list I tried around the Daemon Engine theme worked out much better because it had a Khorne Lord of skulls in it, which was a lot harder to bring down compared to venom crawlers and a lord discordant. ( I basically switched out my LOS for more daemon engines).
BTW, a Khorne Lord of skulls with a Lord Discordant and Master of Possession to buff it is an absolute beast. Hits on a 2+, rerolls 1 to hit and wound (from infernal power) and has a 4++ (from cursed earth). Absolutely rocks. I lost the game I tried him out because I was a bit too late trying to go for the end game objectives, but my opponent was forced to sacrifice literally his entire army to my LOS.
The LOS took down, with some help from other heavy support, 2 Rhinos, 2 Armigers, a Basilisk, Celestine (had to kill her twice!), enemy warlord, troops. And the highlight was when it hacked apart a Crusader knight over 2 rounds of combat with its Great Cleaver of Khorne. My opponent won the game by objectives in the end, but only had two models left standing lol.
No the actual rules favour morale immune blobs (the later the csm of the bl aren't) or msu.
RC can run such units as you said because of the recycling stratagem. That said 10 man squad can work, 5 man still better for csm.
I see, thanks for putting me straight! I think I'll scrap the large unit in favour of a third minimum sized plasma squad and use the leftover points for a squad of Chaincannon Havocs then.
That should work.
Friendly list can also however easily run 10 man squads in csm.
So meh, chose to your liking.
Well, when you put it like that it makes me want to try out the 10 man chaincannon squad. I got some thinking to do. Thanks for your input, buddy!
BTW, a Khorne Lord of skulls with a Lord Discordant and Master of Possession to buff it is an absolute beast. Hits on a 2+, rerolls 1 to hit and wound (from infernal power) and has a 4++ (from cursed earth). Absolutely rocks. I lost the game I tried him out because I was a bit too late trying to go for the end game objectives, but my opponent was forced to sacrifice literally his entire army to my LOS.
Lord of Skulls is so hard to implement.
To keep his cost decent I usually give him gorestorm and Skullhurler, but his effectiveness is ultimately dependent on good number of shots rolls.
I even tried to bring 1k sons DP with Gaze of Fate reroll, but still frequently LOS shots as couple lascannons for 552 points.
And many opponents are just so good at killing him.
I usually win against Imperial Guard tanks, but with LOS it becomes a roulette.
I even considered trying separate supreme command detachment with Iron Warriors legion trait:
LOS, dark apostle, discordant and MoP - just to increase his survivability a little bit.
Yet to fragile. May be with new Chaos Knights codex it will be possible to provide target saturation.
Nice synergy with bloodletter bomb though, several times the bonus shots from Crimson Crown were crucial.
I tried out 2 venomcrawlers along with 2 Lord DIsordants in a game yesterday. They look cool, but honestly, they are a little bit too fragile. They are literally Rhinos with a 5++ save. And if you think that is good, I was facing a mixed imperium army of sisters, blood angels and AM and their sisters Rhino had a 4++ save!
It was a full daemon engine list btw, but suffered because the venomcrawlers were too fragile. In the same vein, LDs are too fragile as well. Unless you give them the indomitable warlord trait that halves their damage received.
You might as well compare a full daemon engine list to a full knight list (with some obligatory troop choices for objectives). Its the same thing. And I think while the daemon engine list is really fluffy, the full knight list would do better. Its like a whole army of T8 compared to a whole army of mostly T6 and T7.
And the other list I tried around the Daemon Engine theme worked out much better because it had a Khorne Lord of skulls in it, which was a lot harder to bring down compared to venom crawlers and a lord discordant. ( I basically switched out my LOS for more daemon engines).
BTW, a Khorne Lord of skulls with a Lord Discordant and Master of Possession to buff it is an absolute beast. Hits on a 2+, rerolls 1 to hit and wound (from infernal power) and has a 4++ (from cursed earth). Absolutely rocks. I lost the game I tried him out because I was a bit too late trying to go for the end game objectives, but my opponent was forced to sacrifice literally his entire army to my LOS.
The LOS took down, with some help from other heavy support, 2 Rhinos, 2 Armigers, a Basilisk, Celestine (had to kill her twice!), enemy warlord, troops. And the highlight was when it hacked apart a Crusader knight over 2 rounds of combat with its Great Cleaver of Khorne. My opponent won the game by objectives in the end, but only had two models left standing lol.
So as suspected venomcrawlers are overpriced rhinos.
?
Mine do well. I have also run full demon engines and you have to be careful where you place models but it does well.
I definitely think your better off running a battalion at least as well though.
Near the lord discordant they are hitting on 3's while on the move and they still have some punch in melee. The fact that they heal in both assault phases and start of turn means they can be surprisingly resilient. They are nothing amazing but they are far from bad as well.
They hit a lot more than a Rhino for sure, but sigh, so fragile. Infernal regen is great, if your opponent spread out his wounds across all your engines. But mine typically focus fire everything on one engine at a time, so it doesn't count for as much.
BTW, a Khorne Lord of skulls with a Lord Discordant and Master of Possession to buff it is an absolute beast. Hits on a 2+, rerolls 1 to hit and wound (from infernal power) and has a 4++ (from cursed earth). Absolutely rocks. I lost the game I tried him out because I was a bit too late trying to go for the end game objectives, but my opponent was forced to sacrifice literally his entire army to my LOS.
Lord of Skulls is so hard to implement.
To keep his cost decent I usually give him gorestorm and Skullhurler, but his effectiveness is ultimately dependent on good number of shots rolls.
I even tried to bring 1k sons DP with Gaze of Fate reroll, but still frequently LOS shots as couple lascannons for 552 points.
And many opponents are just so good at killing him.
I usually win against Imperial Guard tanks, but with LOS it becomes a roulette.
I even considered trying separate supreme command detachment with Iron Warriors legion trait:
LOS, dark apostle, discordant and MoP - just to increase his survivability a little bit.
Yet to fragile. May be with new Chaos Knights codex it will be possible to provide target saturation.
Nice synergy with bloodletter bomb though, several times the bonus shots from Crimson Crown were crucial.
The Hades autocannon is overpriced but the LOS is just so much better with that weapon than with the Ichor Cannon. 12 shots compared to d6 every turn. Yes it breaks your LOS above 600 points but you will be deleting entire units with that gun each round.
Agreed. Also go for the full on lols with this bad boy, a deamon herald of khorne standing behind him with the crown means all 6's to wound pop additional hits. Run him and some khorne venomcrawlers and a forgefiend with hades autocannons and make it a moving khorne castle. Add a master of possession, a dark apostle, and a lord discordant for maximum lols (i run mine as black legion).
I ran a variation of this list at a local tournament just before the discordant came out and it did amazingly well. The trick was to play super aggressive and go right for the enemies speed. Since then adding the discordant in has made it even better. I mean the lord of skulls at -1 to hit sitting on a 4++ save, no one wants to shoot it, but the venom crawlers / forgefiend also have a 4++ so are not better targets really. Add in hitting on 2's rerolling 1's for the lord and his friends (forgefiend hits on 3's but is still super effective here) and you always have demonforge if you need to make sure something hits properly.
And with the master of possession using that poor warpsmith as a wound healer they can keep almost anything alive. Just keep moving forwards, making life miserable for your opponent, and when you finally get within charge range go to town.
Had a blast with reaper chaincannon havocs killing necrons. With VOTLW, prescience, and EC, a chaos lord nearby, they deleted 560 points of infantry. 32*2 shots, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, wounding on 2s with AP-1 is insane My opponent surrendered
Azuza001 wrote: Agreed. Also go for the full on lols with this bad boy, a deamon herald of khorne standing behind him with the crown means all 6's to wound pop additional hits. Run him and some khorne venomcrawlers and a forgefiend with hades autocannons and make it a moving khorne castle. Add a master of possession, a dark apostle, and a lord discordant for maximum lols (i run mine as black legion).
I ran a variation of this list at a local tournament just before the discordant came out and it did amazingly well. The trick was to play super aggressive and go right for the enemies speed. Since then adding the discordant in has made it even better. I mean the lord of skulls at -1 to hit sitting on a 4++ save, no one wants to shoot it, but the venom crawlers / forgefiend also have a 4++ so are not better targets really. Add in hitting on 2's rerolling 1's for the lord and his friends (forgefiend hits on 3's but is still super effective here) and you always have demonforge if you need to make sure something hits properly.
And with the master of possession using that poor warpsmith as a wound healer they can keep almost anything alive. Just keep moving forwards, making life miserable for your opponent, and when you finally get within charge range go to town.
Wow, you do have very good ideas! Now I want to try out your list too! (Its a variant of my list). Venomcrawlers might actually pull their weight in your list because of all the buffs they get from the Blood Throne, Crown, LD, MOP. lol I might go autocannon on my LD instead of baleflamer though. Having the baleflamer roll 1 shot when it cost 20 points more wrecks my heart. I might actually consider putting the -1 to hit on my LD instead of LOS (depending on the matchup). The warlord LD is a favoured target because it "appears" to be the squishiest Daemon engine at T6 and opponent gets warlord point objective if they kill it. Usually, unless you are facing a list that has enough fire power, the LOS will be fine with just a 4++, at least in turn 1. And based on your list, you will have the means to heal it up anyway. Oh, so I asume you don't use infernal power for your psychic but instead, take the one that heals an engine?
Anyway, please post more experiences you have and what you have learnt using daemon engine lists such as the one you posted. I absolutely love the theme, because I love the LOS as a model. And I have all the models you listed in your list too.
Just to share, my list was
Black Legion superheavy detachment.
1 Lord of skulls
Black legion Batallion detachment
1 LD (warlord trait indomitable)
1 MOP.
3 squads of CSM 2 Defilers (lascannon and havoc launchers).
Deathguard Spearhead
1 Chaos Lord with power fist.
3 Plague Burst Crawlers (2 with plague splitters and 1 with entropy cannon loadout).
I built my castle to stand back and shoot, unlike yours. It was only supposed to start moving forward after maybe 2 rounds of shooting. And I didn't buff it up with as much as what you did. But now I would love to try out yours too.
They hit a lot more than a Rhino for sure, but sigh, so fragile. Infernal regen is great, if your opponent spread out his wounds across all your engines. But mine typically focus fire everything on one engine at a time, so it doesn't count for as much.
I mean against any daemon engine, Focus firing is the answer.
Azuza001 wrote: Agreed. Also go for the full on lols with this bad boy, a deamon herald of khorne standing behind him with the crown means all 6's to wound pop additional hits. Run him and some khorne venomcrawlers and a forgefiend with hades autocannons and make it a moving khorne castle. Add a master of possession, a dark apostle, and a lord discordant for maximum lols (i run mine as black legion).
I ran a variation of this list at a local tournament just before the discordant came out and it did amazingly well. The trick was to play super aggressive and go right for the enemies speed. Since then adding the discordant in has made it even better. I mean the lord of skulls at -1 to hit sitting on a 4++ save, no one wants to shoot it, but the venom crawlers / forgefiend also have a 4++ so are not better targets really. Add in hitting on 2's rerolling 1's for the lord and his friends (forgefiend hits on 3's but is still super effective here) and you always have demonforge if you need to make sure something hits properly.
And with the master of possession using that poor warpsmith as a wound healer they can keep almost anything alive. Just keep moving forwards, making life miserable for your opponent, and when you finally get within charge range go to town.
I do not, the warlord trait isnt worth it to me because i plan on using my warpsmith as a sacrificial healer in the games plus the number of cp this list has isnt too great. Spending more for the option to potentially spend more, it doesn't work for me.
Azuza001 wrote: I do not, the warlord trait isnt worth it to me because i plan on using my warpsmith as a sacrificial healer in the games plus the number of cp this list has isnt too great. Spending more for the option to potentially spend more, it doesn't work for me.
His list is designed to shoot first, fight second. Not to say it cannot fight in melee, but it doesn't need to get into melee on round 1. So it doesn't need that +2 movement. If anything, it wants to move together in one huge death ball. The Blood Throne holding the crimson crown, the MOP, the chaos lord that give reroll 1s to hit, these are all moving base 6 inches only. Even with advance, they may not be able to keep up if the daemon engines charge forward too much, so the soulforge pack is kinda unnecessary.
I have to say though, Venomcrawlers who pump out 2d6str 9 shots because they are buffed by the blood throne isn't something I considered. Thats like lascannon strength shooting lol. And the crimson crown's multiplier effect is applied to all with the demon keyword shooting within 6 inches of the blood throne. So, its that entire deathball of shooting, including the Lord Discordant ... Nasty!
I find that Chaos actually have some very cool rules, relics, strategems and such. But half the time, people just straight up forget about them. (Like death to the false emperor!). lol
Tried a Khorne Daemonkin list over the weekend. Karanak, CC Skullmaster, and Bloodreavers DP marching up the field with a Soulforged Pack, Darkness DA, and Cultist screen, with a Raptorial Host of Murder Swlord, 2x5 Warp Talons, and Melta Raptors.
Mission was a CA18 one where three characters on each side have “Intel” that generates VPs and also makes them the sole scoring units for a central objective. Lengthwise deployment.
Facing a Long Fangs firebase with Whirlwind, advancing force of Intercessors screening Bjorn and Phobos Rune Priest with speed bump spell and Relic armour that forces a unit to strike last, with Phobos Infiltrators on one flank and a Gunship carrying Grey Hunters down the other, and a rearguard screen of Wolves.
Lost a Daemon Engine every turn to Long Fangs using an ignore hit modifiers strat. Infiltrators seemed overcosted but totally shut down Warp Talons on their flank. Easily took the objective with my central charge and arriving Talons overwhelming the ability of the priest to shut down a single nasty unit, but I didn’t manage to tripoint anyone and the retaliatory firepower was overwhelming. When the smoke cleared, the only VP generator left on the board was the Wolf Lord hanging with the Long Fangs, and I conceded.
In hindsight, I could have won with more careful piling in, but it was a complicated ruin with a lot of wobbly model syndrome going on and I didn’t want to spend ten minutes on each unit. A better strategy would have been to hold back - way back - and force her to move upfield to get within Las & Plas range and enable my deep strikers to punish a mistake.
Opps, yes my bad. 2d3 shots. Not 2d6 shots Its still great though. You would get 4 shots on average. That's almost like having a squad of Lascannon Havocs already.
Can anybody give me some advice on how to get the best out of a chaos land raider?
I know that they are considered to be a sub-par choice, but I've loved the model ever since it came out and would love to be able to field one in one of my CSM armies without feeling that I'm handicapping myself.
Would the best way to utilise it be to advance for a couple of turns then unleash it's deadly contents?
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Can anybody give me some advice on how to get the best out of a chaos land raider?
I know that they are considered to be a sub-par choice, but I've loved the model ever since it came out and would love to be able to field one in one of my CSM armies without feeling that I'm handicapping myself.
Would the best way to utilise it be to advance for a couple of turns then unleash it's deadly contents?
I wouldn’t want to pay for four Lascannons and then hold off on shooting with them until turn three. I also wouldn’t want to spend two turns covering 20” of ground with a deathstar’s transport whilst Warptime is a thing. Double-drive it forwards, with a mobile source of refills to hit - if you’re not WE, a Slaanesh DP can keep the pace and even join a cheeky opportunity charge with a Slaaneshi Daemon providing aura support.
An endurance spell or prayer could also be welcome. Maybe. A pricey unit can make that kind of thing worth it. Main problem is making sure that it doesn’t get bogged down by chaff and unable to shoot or disembark - I prefer to take my LR as the FW version (it’s a gribbly conversion of unclear origin) so it can overwatch with twin heavy flamers.
A single raider is a hard sell, but it can be protected by an apostle or sorcerer t1 to help it. Get t1? Put -1 to hit from nurgle sorcerer and from the prayer. Move up full speed, advance, pop smoke, bam. Thats -3 to hit and pretty much garunteed to get its cargo to its location safe. Personally i think thats a bit much, you could probably get away with -2 and let it get some shots off.
Dont get the first turn? Still put it -1 to hit, then put it in cover with a 1+ save. It should survive long enough to get the job done.
Personally i had a lot of luck in a game recently with 2 raiders and abaddon vs a guard player. Each raider was at -1 to hit (dark apostle on one sorcerer on the other) and abaddon in between giving them rerolls. The group just walked up the table and was able to nullify the guard player in short order. Remember, you do not have to kill an enemy tank to make it useless, even a cadian tank hitting on 6's rerolling everything but 5's is pretty much nullified. Ran the rest of the army with black legion marines and used them to do what they do best, light anti infanty removal.
Abaddon the Despoiler [12 PL, 2CP, 240pts]: Warlord
Dark Apostle [5 PL, 100pts]: 5. Trusted War-leader, Benediction of Darkness, Council of Traitors, No Chaos Mark
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [7 PL, 112pts]: Angelsbane, Arch-Sorceror, Combi-bolter, Council of Traitors, Death Hex, Force sword, Mark of Nurgle, Miasma of Pestilence, Prescience
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 85pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Reaper chaincannon
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 85pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Reaper chaincannon
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 85pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Reaper chaincannon
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 67pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Combi-bolter
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 67pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Combi-bolter
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 67pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Combi-bolter
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
+ Elites +
Greater Possessed [4 PL, 70pts] . Greater Possessed: No Chaos Mark
Greater Possessed [4 PL, 70pts] . Greater Possessed: No Chaos Mark
Helbrute [6 PL, 100pts]: Helbrute fist, Helbrute fist, Mark of Nurgle
+ Fast Attack +
Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 25pts]: Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark
Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 25pts]: Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark
Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 25pts]: Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark
+ Heavy Support +
Chaos Land Raider [16 PL, 297pts]: No Chaos Mark, Twin heavy bolter, 2x Twin lascannon
Chaos Land Raider [16 PL, 297pts]: No Chaos Mark, Twin heavy bolter, 2x Twin lascannon
Defiler [9 PL, 172pts]: Defiler scourge, Mark of Nurgle, Twin lascannon
Obviously you can change this list however you like to whatever Legion you play. I just like using a baton. The alpha Legion would be incredibly nasty with that trick as well.
I'd recommend going Nurgle for the -1 buff, and dank apostle to stack a further -1 on turn 1. That should buy you enough to live a round. Then a second threat for turn 2, probably obliterators deep striking, allowing you to transfer the apostle's prayer to that unit.
Either that or offer up a juicier target.
Either way CC is the death of a LR, so you have to screen it very well.
You could try buffing the landraider with tons of defensive buffs and then put the nastiest stuff you can think of in it. Like Alpha legion nurgle (cast miasma of pestilence of it) Landraider with a Dark Apostle to give it a further -1.
So now you have a -3 to hit Landraider. Then put in something utterly digusting like 3 thunder hammer chaos lords, 3 exalted champions and 3 executioners. And then your dark apostle cast cast the reroll to hit in melee in the turn you charge out.
Provided you have lots of juicy targets in range, you will wreck face when you charge 9 characters out of that Land Raider. You actually may need to escort such LR with other stuff. Because you absolutely do not want your LR surrounded such that it cannot unload anyone. And with such a deadly cargo in it, you can be sure some opponents will try exactly that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another possibility would be not to go so overboard. Just have some berserkers in it. Maybe do Alpha legion nurgle LR, but build your list as a shooty list. So the berserkers in the LR would serve as a sort of counter charge melee unit if something scary reaches your shooty lines. I mean, the LR is still 4 lascannons and a heavy bolter, with the option to add a havoc launcher too.
Might work well in a Nortilith crown list. Because the crown will give the LR a 5++ save as well. And the Crown tends to encourage building a castle around it anyway. Have Abby, Havocs, the buffed LR, and other possible shooty stuff around a Nortilith Crown. If they get close, Abby and a bunch of berserkers will counter charge them and make them cry.
Buffing a Landraider is absolutely NOT the way to go about it. It is a very inefficient unit offensively and buffing it's defense isn't going to help at all. If you do that then your opponent will just ignore it or tie it up in melee. Spending another 200 points for a Sorceror and DA for a not even guaranteed -2 to hit is absolute madness. Spending 500 points for 4 lascannons is a bad idea.
If you are deadset on using a Landraider then you could try something I've seen work before but it was a while ago. Basically you put 10 Chosen with combi-bolter and chainsword inside and march up the table with Abaddon and gak loads of cultists. Your opponent either shoots the cultists or the LR and any guns built for heavy infantry or light vehicles are useless. Abaddon gives rerolls and your Chosen jump out eventually and start spitting bullets everywhere. The guy I saw run this actually used Noise Marines but now Chosen are better imo. This was before the cultist nerf which will reduce the efficacy of the list. You could run PBs instead but then why bother with Abaddon and a LR.
The main issue is that Landraiders just aren't that tough and there's pretty much nothing valuable enough worth transporting in one vs a Rhino.
Lots of useful ideas for me to think about. I hadn't even considered running two LRs in a 2000 pt list but it's nice to know that it's not beyond the realm of possibility!
Basic idea is screen with your Cultists and CSMs who focus on killing infantry while your Levis and LR sit behind Abaddon and focus on shooting tank type units. Remember Levis have double Hellflamers so they can flame gak that gets into your lines.
Clocks in at a tad under 1650 points. Remember you need to include at least 1 more HQ for the battalion but that'll give you at least another 250 points for whatever else you want to include.
The biggest problem with this list? The Landraider. It does 4.14 wounds average to a T8 4++ unit (inc. Abaddon re-rolls). A single Leviathan does 7.11 wounds average (inc. Abaddon re-rolls) to the same target after moving and it's slightly cheaper! If you keep your Leviathans stationary and use a Lord to babysit them (since 2+ BS you don't need Abaddon) then the Levis come out even further on top. True, the Landraider brings your plasma-toting Chosen into the fray relatively safely, but you can just drop Oblits or plasma Termis for basically the same result.
"Buffing a Landraider is absolutely NOT the way to go about it. It is a very inefficient unit offensively and buffing it's defense isn't going to help at all. If you do that then your opponent will just ignore it or tie it up in melee."
- It is absolutely the way to go, otherwise the damn thing is a piñata. Giving your opponent only one big target to shoot at at a time, and then stacking that target with negatives to hit, is one of the only ways I can think of a LR working. With no buffs it's dead turn 1 every single time. As for CC, I agree, CC is the death of a LR. It needs screening, which means it's best off not delivering assault troops (eg instead protecting havocs from t1 alpha), or delivering troops that are so mean your opponent will have no wish to get near CC (eg zerkers). I think its best role is the former, buffed with minuses to hit, shielding blits or havocs. More likely to stay out of cc that way, and gives you more deployment flex, as you're not focussed on trimming those inches for your assault troops.
grouchoben wrote: "Buffing a Landraider is absolutely NOT the way to go about it. It is a very inefficient unit offensively and buffing it's defense isn't going to help at all. If you do that then your opponent will just ignore it or tie it up in melee."
- It is absolutely the way to go, otherwise the damn thing is a piñata. Giving your opponent only one big target to shoot at at a time, and then stacking that target with negatives to hit, is one of the only ways I can think of a LR working. With no buffs it's dead turn 1 every single time. As for CC, I agree, CC is the death of a LR. It needs screening, which means it's best off not delivering assault troops (eg instead protecting havocs from t1 alpha), or delivering troops that are so mean your opponent will have no wish to get near CC (eg zerkers). I think its best role is the former, buffed with minuses to hit, shielding blits or havocs. More likely to stay out of cc that way, and gives you more deployment flex, as you're not focussed on trimming those inches for your assault troops.
I disagree strongly with this. DA and Nurgle Sorc will cost you 208 points. Nurgle Sorc requires first turn and gives 72% chance to get off his -1 to hit. DA is 83% chance to go off. For another 90 points you can buy another Landraider which is far more points efficient. Or you can spend 200 points on good units like DPs instead of throwing good points after bad.
You transfer the buffs over to a second unit once the first is gone, as I said in my first post.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Agreed on the Sorc though, it is T1 dependent.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd much rather stack buffs on a unit with one already inherent to it (eg AL Lev or Storm Eagle) but hey, it is what it is, and we're talking LRs.
Problem is that you only have a 60% chance of getting both buffs off if you get first turn. Is it worth spending 200 points for those odds on a unit that is not valuable offensively?
For the price of the LR + Sorc + DA you could buy 3 lascannon havoc squads. That's 12 lascannons v 2 twin lascannons (technically worse than 4 lascannons).
I'll admit that you can find other units for the buffs to go on if the LR dies but your opponent doesn't *need* the LR to die. I'd be more than happy for 4 lascannons that are effectively 25% of the enemy army to shoot at me all day long.
In my sample list a couple of posts above the LR kinda works because it acts as a delivery method for the plasma Chosen, it can still use its average offense (it's main point of difference to the FW termite or even dreadclaw) and because of the two accompanying Levis that are T8 you have strong target saturation.
I agree, it's not ideal. But with a CP preroll you're looking pretty good for both buffs: 2+ followed by 6+ on 2 die with a reroll is reliable, if not nailed on.
And yes, the price is extortionate! I'd much rather have the havocs too.
That's my idea too, make the LR do work, but by filling it full of things that simply must die (ideally 2 squads of chain havocs), and then stacking negs to make the cost of killing it high.
Regarding the trio of hammer lords jumping out of a Land Raider: may well be overcosted right now, but there’s an absolutely epic Wrathmongers kitbash in that idea.
lindsay40k wrote: Regarding the trio of hammer lords jumping out of a Land Raider: may well be overcosted right now, but there’s an absolutely epic Wrathmongers kitbash in that idea.
I play more smaller points games... 1000 to 1500 and I find them pretty effective.
Last game I played was 1000 points and got me...
1 Lord on Juggernaught w/ Powerfist and combigun 2x 8xman Squads of Beserkers w/ chainaxe + Chainsword, Champion w/ powerfist and chainsword (don't forget they also have grenades). 2x Rhinos with 1x Combi bolter, 1x Combiflamer, 1x havoc launcher Exalted Champion w/ Murder Sword and combibolter
1 Dark Apostle w/ illusiary supplication 2x Dark apostle support people 1x 20 man squad of cultists 1x 16 man squad of cultists
The powerfists sorted any vehicles out, the rhinos did well soaking up overwatch - maybe the extra guns on it were a bit overkill but it was nice to get tonnes of shots off them. I did come against a squad of hellblasters... they took out a rhino round one and I had to run with one squad of berserkers, but my Lord on Juggernaut took them out next round, so that was pretty points effective. He survived a round of Wulfen attacks with some good rolling, but when killing a couple of them in retaliation he died (a wulfen attack on their own death). It was actually the cultists that won the game as they were mostly ignored (with a 5+ invulnerability save and leadership 9) and they took 3 control points between them and I got line breaker and slay the warlord (with the exalted champion and murder sword). The cultists also just had a massive weight of shots behind them... up to 40 shots in rapid fire range killed a few primaris marines.
Out of interest I've been thinking of fielding even more beserkers especially on something like the vigilus maps where speed is of the essence to get to the backfield... red ones go faster eh? Something like... 3x 8 man squads as above 3x rhinos 1x exalted champion 1x biker lord 3x bikes
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Can anybody give me some advice on how to get the best out of a chaos land raider?
I know that they are considered to be a sub-par choice, but I've loved the model ever since it came out and would love to be able to field one in one of my CSM armies without feeling that I'm handicapping myself.
Would the best way to utilise it be to advance for a couple of turns then unleash it's deadly contents?
Completely understand the urge to use a Land Raider. It's one of my favorite models too.
I only use mine in games at 1250 points and below. Opponents tend to lack massed high strength, long-range firepower in these games, making the LR more survivable.
As has been pointed out, Land Raiders are expensive and inefficient. They have mediocre shooting and the transport capacity doesn't matter as much in low-point games.
What it does extremely well, better than most other units, is getting in the way. It's tall and occupies a lot of space, be careful about positioning and use it to disrupt your opponent. Most commonly, mine gets used for multicharges, providing a mobile shield, and blocking access to objectives. I can think of a few examples where my Land Raider locked several units in combat to shut down a flank while the rest of my army went to town. I can think of a few examples where I parked the Land Raider between my opponent and an objective, forcing him to chew through wounds on the LR with AP- weapons for several rounds. Another tactic which has worked for me is backing the Land Raider up to a building to create an alcove that acts as a shield for shooting units.
You really have to optimize around the rest of your list to use a Land Raider in a low points game. My experience has been fast-moving lists with lots of cheap infantry are the best compliment. Jump-pack Lords and Sorcerers are good for buffing the Land Raider while it's moving (auras for rerolling 1s and prescience make the lascannons a lot more potent.) Chaos Bikers are good for grabbing objectives and forcing your opponent to split his forces. Large cultist blobs are good for board control so long as they have some morale protection. Helrbutes and Chosen can be priced right to fill out the list.
I've also won a few games with purely elite lists. Abaddon, an Exalted Champion, 3 squads of Berzerkers and a Land Raider can be a threat just marching up the board. When the only target your opponent has is the Land Raider and they don't have melta / mass-plasma, you can get them to waste a lot of shots before you clean up in close combat. Keep Abaddon on the board for full rerolls to hit and fire the lascannons at anything that could wound the LR.
Another list I played was a mechanized list with Abaddon, 3 squads of 12 Cultists, a Land Raider, and a pair of Hellforged Scorpius tanks. In one game, I had Abaddon and the Scorpius' firing from behind a building while the LR and the Cultists were spread out. The LR was taking charges while the Cultists grabbed objectives, I just kept falling back strategically with the LR and nuking him with double shooting from the Scorpius. My opponent's Tyranids had no answer for that, he had half his army advancing on the Scorpius' all game and not getting there.
Again, there are better units than a Land Raider. If you really want to use one, keep it out of 2000 point games and play to its strengths as much as possible.
So I have been playing Red Corairs a lot lately and I have to say Huron is a swiss army knife and may be the most entertaining character in the game. He always wins me games.
I always take warp time on him and in every game at some point he ends up running 20" or more before making an assault and killing something vital.
Red Corsairs in general are just so much fun. With a lord discordant from a hellforged pack plus some dreads and some berserkers in a drill (deployed, never DS it), the table coverage you achieve is nightmare fuel for your opponent.
Last night I played my bros dark angels and huron and his pet were the last models I had verse my brothers last 2 inceptors with plasma. Huron was on 2 wounds remaining, he warp timed to within 5" and smote for 3 mortals. I declared my charge and the inceptor got 2 shots overcharged and rolled a 1 and a 6 killing himself and wounding Hruon who failed his sigil. Literally the last model on the table was the Hymadrya. Funniest end to a game I can remember in a long time.
My list isn't hard core but is a ton of fun:
Red Corsairs 1500
Huron (warlord)
Lord Discordant (relic mechatendrals) Hellforged pack WLT
3X5 CSM with a reaper Chain Canon
Helbrute w/ double power scourge
Greater possessed
8 Khorne Berzerkers
I use a LR in some Death Guard lists, since they need all the Las Cannons they can afford, but only in friendly fluff lists with lots of Plague Marines and Infantry. The LR is either ignored most game, and runs out of viable targets, or is charged and locked in combat becoming a paperweight.
Not Online!!! wrote: The problem is not that Berzerkers aren't good, the problem is with their Mobility, which is bad. Rhinos might help but that is also more points. If you can cast warptime, the things allready changing but again WE can't have psykers.
Also berzerkers are not particular sturdy.
What legion/warband might you recommend in lieu of World Eaters? I want to have one with a Khornate allegiance but with fewer restrictions that you mentioned.
I use World Eaters and Alpha Legion together and have had success. Alpha nets me most of what pure WE are lacking plus there is plenty of fluffy explanation even if you paint everything WE colors. (Everyone is just Alpha Legion anyway)
Last game I played Sunday I played 1500pts and had 2 battalions, one of each Legion, and used cultists as troops minus WE who got the tasty bezerkers unit of 8, and threw them in a rhino. They actually took out a full squad of Deathwing termies before they got to do anything. Granted it was me and my friends Death Guard at 1500pts each versus our friends Dark Angels at 3k playing the Vigilus Bold the Gate scenario. Fun game. We held the gate and were able to keep it.
Not Online!!! wrote: The problem is not that Berzerkers aren't good, the problem is with their Mobility, which is bad. Rhinos might help but that is also more points. If you can cast warptime, the things allready changing but again WE can't have psykers.
Also berzerkers are not particular sturdy.
What legion/warband might you recommend in lieu of World Eaters? I want to have one with a Khornate allegiance but with fewer restrictions that you mentioned.
Honestly if you just want to stick in some units, red Corsairs, their trait gives you advance + charge, has no god limit and "more where they came from" generates mobility for regular csm.
Alternativly alpha legion, forward operatives + warptime allows for further reach.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Red Corsair wrote: So I have been playing Red Corairs a lot lately and I have to say Huron is a swiss army knife and may be the most entertaining character in the game. He always wins me games.
I always take warp time on him and in every game at some point he ends up running 20" or more before making an assault and killing something vital.
Red Corsairs in general are just so much fun. With a lord discordant from a hellforged pack plus some dreads and some berserkers in a drill (deployed, never DS it), the table coverage you achieve is nightmare fuel for your opponent.
Last night I played my bros dark angels and huron and his pet were the last models I had verse my brothers last 2 inceptors with plasma. Huron was on 2 wounds remaining, he warp timed to within 5" and smote for 3 mortals. I declared my charge and the inceptor got 2 shots overcharged and rolled a 1 and a 6 killing himself and wounding Hruon who failed his sigil. Literally the last model on the table was the Hymadrya. Funniest end to a game I can remember in a long time.
My list isn't hard core but is a ton of fun:
Red Corsairs 1500
Huron (warlord)
Lord Discordant (relic mechatendrals) Hellforged pack WLT
3X5 CSM with a reaper Chain Canon
Helbrute w/ double power scourge
Greater possessed
8 Khorne Berzerkers
Terrax drill
Venom crawler
Mauler fiend
2 oblits
Has been a blast at 1.5K
Now only the opposite should work, got a list planed, probably not usefull for people who face a lot off armor.
Is anyone having any success with the Red Corsairs giant CSM blobs? I haven't heard anything about them in any big events, but then I could easily have missed it as I don't follow that stuff as closely as I probably should. Reason I ask is that there's a new CSM discount box coming out soon and it includes 3 of the new CSM kits (so 30 marines). I kind of want to get it if that strategy actually works, but I'm just not sure it's worth all the points and CP to get Tide of Traitors: Marines edition. Especially since as renegades Red Corsairs do not get access to Veterans of the Long War.
ZergSmasher wrote: Is anyone having any success with the Red Corsairs giant CSM blobs? I haven't heard anything about them in any big events, but then I could easily have missed it as I don't follow that stuff as closely as I probably should. Reason I ask is that there's a new CSM discount box coming out soon and it includes 3 of the new CSM kits (so 30 marines). I kind of want to get it if that strategy actually works, but I'm just not sure it's worth all the points and CP to get Tide of Traitors: Marines edition. Especially since as renegades Red Corsairs do not get access to Veterans of the Long War.
I tested once a 20 man squad, morale really Starts to hurt there's, also 260 pts baseline price Tag with only 2 slots for equipment.
Overall i found 10 man squads better, they draw less fire, suffer less from morale and still have the same weapon saturarion.
First, is the Maulerfiend and Forgefiend the same box set? I keep looking for a Maulerfiend on Amazon but Forgefiend comes up and it shows pictures of the maulerfiend. Just wanted some confirmation before I order.
Second, what is the Terrax Drill Red Corsair?
Thanks!
First, is the Maulerfiend and Forgefiend the same box set? I keep looking for a Maulerfiend on Amazon but Forgefiend comes up and it shows pictures of the maulerfiend. Just wanted some confirmation before I order.
Second, what is the Terrax Drill Red Corsair?
Thanks!
Yes, Maulerfiend and forgefiend are the same box set. The box allows you to build either one.
The Terrax Drill is a new forgeworld model I think.
First, is the Maulerfiend and Forgefiend the same box set? I keep looking for a Maulerfiend on Amazon but Forgefiend comes up and it shows pictures of the maulerfiend. Just wanted some confirmation before I order.
Second, what is the Terrax Drill Red Corsair?
Thanks!
Yes, Maulerfiend and forgefiend are the same box set. The box allows you to build either one.
The Terrax Drill is a new forgeworld model I think.
d3 meltas, 2 storm bolters, T8, W13, any model that it wounds in CC but doesn't kill takes cascading mortal wounds, on a 2+, 3+, 4+, etc. WS 4+ is its only really weakness.
lindsay40k wrote: Hamadrya as the last thing standing made me shriek with laughter in heretic, well played @Red_Corsair
Yea it was easily the funniest ending to a game we have played in 8th thus far lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: d3 meltas, 2 storm bolters, T8, W13, any model that it wounds in CC but doesn't kill takes cascading mortal wounds, on a 2+, 3+, 4+, etc. WS 4+ is its only really weakness.
It only has 10 wounds unless it was burried in a FAQ somewhere that it has 13. I wish it had 13 the thing gets killed very quickly.
Dumb question; how would a Lord Discordant do while being accompanied by two LOSs and a Kytan? Plus two small units so you get a detachment with the LD. Three big, scary Khorne things. Or throw a Khorne Daemon Prince with two 10-man Letter Bombs.
timetowaste85 wrote: Dumb question; how would a Lord Discordant do while being accompanied by two LOSs and a Kytan? Plus two small units so you get a detachment with the LD. Three big, scary Khorne things. Or throw a Khorne Daemon Prince with two 10-man Letter Bombs.
You actually have two LOS and a Kytan Ravager? lol I have a LOS and consider myself a minority already. I will tell you first that the LD will be focused on and destroyed turn 1 if you bring that. Its such a huge force multiplier for all the lord of war engines and yet it only has T6 and 12 wounds.
You almost have to play it as Black Legion so that you can give your LD the indomitable warlord trait. Even then, it will probably still die first. It will be like a knight army. Opponent will ignore them (as much as he is able) and play objectives. Because not alot of armies bring enough heavy support to be able to take down 3 lord of war engines.
timetowaste85 wrote: Dumb question; how would a Lord Discordant do while being accompanied by two LOSs and a Kytan? Plus two small units so you get a detachment with the LD. Three big, scary Khorne things. Or throw a Khorne Daemon Prince with two 10-man Letter Bombs.
You actually have two LOS and a Kytan Ravager? lol I have a LOS and consider myself a minority already. I will tell you first that the LD will be focused on and destroyed turn 1 if you bring that. Its such a huge force multiplier for all the lord of war engines and yet it only has T6 and 12 wounds.
You almost have to play it as Black Legion so that you can give your LD the indomitable warlord trait. Even then, it will probably still die first. It will be like a knight army. Opponent will ignore them (as much as he is able) and play objectives. Because not alot of armies bring enough heavy support to be able to take down 3 lord of war engines.
This x2. You would have to buff the heck out of the LD to make that work, black legion w/ indomitable, dark apostle w/ -1 to hit prayer, and probably a sorcerer of nurgle to add another-1 to hit in case you go first and get the chance to protect it better. Even then after t1 all those things will probably move out of range for protection t2....
timetowaste85 wrote: Dumb question; how would a Lord Discordant do while being accompanied by two LOSs and a Kytan? Plus two small units so you get a detachment with the LD. Three big, scary Khorne things. Or throw a Khorne Daemon Prince with two 10-man Letter Bombs.
The only thing this list has going for it is offense. Without enough models to cover objectives, your opponent would probably split their forces and pick off your LOWs one at a time.
I'm not sure I agree the LD would be the proper choice for priority target, each LOS still has BS3 S8+ shooting with no penalties for moving and firing. The LD's +1 to hit doesn't matter as much when the Daemon Engine is already so good to begin with. I almost want to say a pair of jump pack Chaos Lords would be more valuable for the reroll auras and immunity from shooting.
While this is not an auto-lose list, wins would likely be few and far between. At the same time, I'm certain it would be fun to play. If you have the models, go for it and post a batrep.
This list brings up an important point. Increasingly, it feels like the proper way to assess the value of a LOW is in comparison with a 30-man Bloodletter Bomb. Each is expected to have a similar impact but the BB has the advantage of price, 'boots on the ground,' and a delivery mechanism to get it right into combat. Unless the LOW can compensate through other advantages, Bloodletters are the more efficient option in most games.
lindsay40k wrote: Wait. Isn’t a single LoS enough to block LoS to LD? This might be really viable. If anything wants buffs in such a lineup, it’s the LoS...
Sure is. It seems pretty obvious if you own the models too. LoS is basically a mobile building lol.
I don't have it, I only have a Kytan. But I WANT a LoS, and was amusing myself with the idea of dropping that kind of insanity on the field. I actually really like the big stuff, and the idea of dropping 3 Khorne LoWs that could potentially make the opponent pee themselves a bit in terror is kind of funny. But yeah, was thinking maybe Khorne Princes next to them for some Letterbomb shenanigans and the Khorne buffs, plus the Knight-killing Khorne axe from the daemon codex...the opponent basically has to decide what is going to make it to them.
Champion of Slaanesh wrote: So now that the shadow spear stuff has been out for a while what's the general thoughts on the units
Overall, preety niche, MoP requires a lot of daemons obviously, and the daemons it requires are either:
A: Possesed (So basically disregard this point 90% of the time)
B: daemon engines.
The oblits are basically a go big or go home unit, as they were before but now even moreso.(maybee a bunch of single drops in under 1000pts matches could work? i am also sure someone is going to meme at a 500 ots game and brings a warpsmith and 3 of these)
The greater possessed are a beatstick and buffer for legion daemons. So basically for daemon engines, if they could keep up, which they don't particulary well.
The venomcrawler is to be described as a overpriced rhino.
the 10 man squad of CSM in the box is well, to put it bluntly ridicoulusly equipped.
My reccomendation, get yourself the new CSM apo box, overall probably a better start for Chaos. The oblits as it used to be , kitbash em or get them from E-bay.
It feels like in the areas where Forgeworld stuff is restricted from tournaments CSMs are under heavy pressure.
More and more players drift towards new rosters with scarabs, while outside of ITC missions I can hardly see their application.
Codex Daemonic engine spam doesn’t hold well against both gun lines and horde armies (especially Defilers suffer against hordes).
My codex favorite unit of noise marines suffers heavily from abundance of IG artillery lists and other alpha strike armies, also Alpha Legion stratagem nerf hit them hard and made very terrain dependent.
How do you guys feel about current CSM place in competitive?
I had high hopes for the daemonkin and vigilus, but new tricks we learned are very expensive points and CP wise.
My last approach to list building ended up with 1k sons and DG detachments with optional daemonbomb.
Cannot find place for any csm units. Even CP generation from red corsairs is too expensive to justify.
What are your thoughts guys? What CSM codex gives to chaos lists, which is unique and competitive?
Fan67 wrote: It feels like in the areas where Forgeworld stuff is restricted from tournaments CSMs are under heavy pressure.
More and more players drift towards new rosters with scarabs, while outside of ITC missions I can hardly see their application.
Codex Daemonic engine spam doesn’t hold well against both gun lines and horde armies (especially Defilers suffer against hordes).
My codex favorite unit of noise marines suffers heavily from abundance of IG artillery lists and other alpha strike armies, also Alpha Legion stratagem nerf hit them hard and made very terrain dependent.
How do you guys feel about current CSM place in competitive?
I had high hopes for the daemonkin and vigilus, but new tricks we learned are very expensive points and CP wise.
My last approach to list building ended up with 1k sons and DG detachments with optional daemonbomb.
Cannot find place for any csm units. Even CP generation from red corsairs is too expensive to justify.
What are your thoughts guys? What CSM codex gives to chaos lists, which is unique and competitive?
The potential to a PA skew list?
Obliterators. (very dependant , can you get enough CP?)
The new chaincannon.
Champion of Slaanesh wrote: So now that the shadow spear stuff has been out for a while what's the general thoughts on the units
Newblits are okay. As a unit to invest buffs into, harder to fit into a list than oldblits. Option to take single model unit is nice - one wrong move and you can potentially delete a support character.
Venomcrawler is overcosted, it’s not in a Defiler’s league but it’s only a handful of points cheaper.
Master of Possession is a decent support character. Not a fan of the double rerolls spell - I’d rather have reliable auras and Stratagems for that. Incursion is a potentially strong gimmick. Sacrifice is great. Mutated Invigoration is a decent accompaniment to a full Newblits squad - especially with Chaos Daemons buffs.
The CSM... eh. Put the heavy gunner in a Havocs squad. Put the other gunner in a Chosen squad. Put the champion in a Berzerker squad. Fill out Heretac or Berzerker squads with the rest.
Greater Possessed are an ok accompaniment to Possessed and to a punchy Daemon Engine jamboree if their chums aren’t going to Warptime and Soulforged Pack away from them. When Venomcrawlers get a price cut, expect to see some lists using them together with heralds.
If you’re going halves with a Space Marine collector, the Oblits and MoP and extra bodies aren’t bad value. Especially with Oldblits now OOP. And a minidex that’s got some interesting new warlord traits. Reroll 1’s to cast is pretty handy.
Anyone got any decent ideas for an iron warriors list that wouldn't be crap? I've got the shadow spear models plus 5 new terminators and 20 cultists to get me started off.
Definitely going to be using at least 10 terminators bare bones in the list as I absolutely love the models and think they are quite good for their points in a squad of 10.
Hmmm, my view is that Vigilenge and Shadowspear and the new Chaos codex all combined together added a lot to Chaos. Before this, Chaos probably really struggled.
In all honesty, unless you are playing some heavily skewed list, a "balanced" Chaos list would probably not be the most competitive thing out there. However!
If you are not facing the filthiest list all the time, or the most competitive players all the time, and you yourself are a competent player who doesn't forget the myraid tons of rules chaos have (like death to the false emperor). Then you would probably have a lot of fun. because
1) Chaos armies are very diverse and look really cool. (since a lot of new plastic models just released).
2) All the rules combined allow you to play very fluffy lists while still being able to field a decent army. (Decent as in as long as your opponent doesn't bring the filthiest of stuff or the most competitive stuff out there, you will have a fighting chance or at the very least a good solid game).
All the rules allow you to play a myraid range of very interesting fluffy armies. You can do heavy Daemon Engine, Heavy Daemon, Have a centerpiece model and buff the heck out of that one big scary model (like Lord of skulls), play Abaddon, black legion and go shooty. There are just tons of choices out there.
Unfortunately, if faced with the most competitive lists out there, I think a lot of the fluffier lists would struggle. If you want to win all the time, then you will find your choices of lists and units a lot more restricted and many of the shadowspear stuff won't be quite as competitive.
Take Obliterators. A group of 3 are great in a fluffy list. But if you don't give careful consideration to where they come down, what they shoot. Then even with endless cacophony, you will have them come down, shoot out two units, and then next turn they WILL die (unless your opponent still don't know how deadly they are after they shot out two units in one turn). And here's the thing, a group of 3 costs over 300 points. Almost the cost of a naked melee renegade knight gallant. If you come down, and those two units you shoot out aren't worth 300 over points at least, then you are behind. Because you just traded your over 300 points for his less than 300 points.
I saw a video battle rep. The chaos player deep stuck down his 3 oblits. OK. Then he used them to shoot out two units of space marine space wolves (with endless C). Next turn, he lost all three oblits. It was such a terrible trade.
I was the one who called venomcrawlers an overpriced Rhino. lol I guess I should be more fair. They are definitely more shooty than one. However, they are not really that durable. They need a lot of support to be "good". Is it an awesome model? I have two painted up and I absolutely low how they look. But I had both dead in smoking ruins by end of turn two as well... shrug. You really need to play them with support to bring out the best in them. Just charging them up with a LD in tow for a possible turn 1 charge is just not going to be enough. (Well at least not against a good list).
MOP is for themed lists with daemon engines or daemons. Else, a Sorceror is better because the chaos psychic list is already good.
Greater possessed are great. But we have no lack of fighty characters. They aren't going to win the whole game for you.
I shared two boxes of shadowspear with my friend for all the chaos stuff in them, and I love how they look visually. My daemon engine army looks amazing to me. But is it top tier competitive... probably not. (Forced to admit it). But would it give me a fun game, that would be a big yes.
By the way, you want to go daemon engine theme, a LD is almost mandatory. So even though that isnt in the shadowspear box. You have to get it. Not that it isn't a visually great model too, but you need that LD support. So, chaos is in a good place right now. If just want a good game, and you don't need an army that will curb stomp every else out there. It allows for probably the widest range of play I can think of.
1. You can go triple jump pack Chaos Lord with thunder hammer (with Vigilence Ablaze raptorial host and strategems, and relics). (but just remember we don't have storm shields).
2). You can go full demon list. use MOP, possessed, greater possessed, and try a melee intensive army. (However, I think space wolves can probably do that better).
3). You could go full khorne world eaters berserkers in rhinos and stuff. But in 8th edition, not a lot of melee armies are that great. Custodes would probably be a better melee army than a berserker army.
4) You could go black legion slanaash full shooty. But there are are lots of other shooty armies out there too. Tau? IG with Castellan? Having Abaddon in a shooty list is like having Bobby G in a ultramarines shooty list. Its not as if we see tons of those around beating down everything.
5). You could go horde. Mass cultists in an alpha legion list. Or even try out space marine horde in a red corsairs list. But cultists are 5 points a model compared to IG infantry at 4. Others can probably horde better than we can. The red corsair horde looks interesting, until you run into an opponent that has the firepower to take out a squad of 20 in one turn at a pop. And trust me, there are lists out there which can do that.
6). You could go hero hammer, lots of heroes (we have great psykers). Hidden and protected behind tons of chaff. But then you run into a cuxulus or two, and your entire pstchic phase gets shut down.
I think you can see where I am going with all this. Chaos now allows for tons of customization and options and great fluffy lists. But no world beating ones I can think of. In fact, the huge range of customization probably means that chaos players spend a lot more money trying out all sorts of strategies and army lists while losing more than winning because we are trying everything and not sticking to learning one theme well enough. We don't have any easy "I win" units or buttons. And we have lots of rules and strategems that are great, but we forget them half the time.
Like even in battle reps online, players always forget death to the false emperor. Even the players who claim they have been playing chaos for years. In a recent game, I cast the psyhic power infernal power (1+ reroll on hit and wound), and then I proceed to forget it on two out of three of the daemon engines that got buffed by it. How many of us remember that Rhinos can be repaired, and that infernal regeneration gives us a wound back at the start of the turn. etc etc.
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Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone got any decent ideas for an iron warriors list that wouldn't be crap? I've got the shadow spear models plus 5 new terminators and 20 cultists to get me started off.
Definitely going to be using at least 10 terminators bare bones in the list as I absolutely love the models and think they are quite good for their points in a squad of 10.
You will probably have to try different loadouts before you find out what works for you. If you want them cheap, 10 termis with combi bolters and chain axes are cheap and yet, have a huge footprint and deal out pretty decent fire power. They almost definitley have to be dealt with if you can find the space to deep strike them into the back field. Its still just bolters though (even with bolter discipline).
If you want dangerous stuff to die. Then Terminators with combi plasma are expensive, but stuff you point those plasma guns at will definitely die. a unit of 10 can pump out 20 plasma shots at 12 inches. You can cocophany strategem it to shoot twice for 40 shots. Its an expensive unit pushing over 400 points. So you really need to take out expensive targets when that unit drops down. It probably absolutely needs to be supported so that you can have rerolls (because plasma killing your own termis is painful). If you are playing newbies, you will have a lot of fun with that, and will probably make newbies cry. Once you start facing people who know how to screen, then you will find the effectiveness of such a unit significant curbed by their screening.
The other issue is that while you put 300 to 500 points off the board in deep strike reserve, will the army you do have on the field be able to stand up your opponent until your deep stirkers arrive. Maybe bring very long range weapons that can shoot 48 inches or more. Stay far back. So that a lot of his shooting is ineffective because out of range. Pound on him from extreme long range in turn 1, wait until your whole army is on the board before you try anything fancy.
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lindsay40k wrote: Wait. Isn’t a single LoS enough to block LoS to LD? This might be really viable. If anything wants buffs in such a lineup, it’s the LoS...
The LOS can block some, but depending on how spread out his army line is, the LOS probably can't totally block off line of sight of everything to the LD. The LD is pretty decent sized after all. And don't forget, not everything needs line of sight in the first place. Imperium has stuff like Basilisks which don't need line of sight.
Nice yeah I will definitely be using them as I love terminators as I say, my plan will probably be exactly what I do with my Deathwatch. Have a shooty castle with havocs, CSM and possibly a chaos Knight when it is released. The Firebase will be covered by screening cultists who will obviously site for the pantheon.
Second part of the force will be 10 terminators with a smash lord and oblits who drop into key areas and destroy the enemy (then quite possibly die instantly) is a tactic I've used loads and I quite enjoy it.
Tempted to add a lord discordant or 2 and some mauler fiends that looks like a nice combo
Rogerio134134 wrote: Nice yeah I will definitely be using them as I love terminators as I say, my plan will probably be exactly what I do with my Deathwatch. Have a shooty castle with havocs, CSM and possibly a chaos Knight when it is released. The Firebase will be covered by screening cultists who will obviously site for the pantheon.
Second part of the force will be 10 terminators with a smash lord and oblits who drop into key areas and destroy the enemy (then quite possibly die instantly) is a tactic I've used loads and I quite enjoy it.
Tempted to add a lord discordant or 2 and some mauler fiends that looks like a nice combo
If you’re doing a Daemon Engine jamboree and aren’t Black Legion, I’d recommend a single LD, and a Warpsmith to be the Soulforged field commander. Could even be worth a DA casting -1 to be hit on the LD - giving them maulers WS3+ makes him such a fire magnet, adding that to his 2+ save can be worth it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What am I saying, BL SoulPack with LD & WS is totally awesome. Put a bunch of endurance buffs on the LD and watch them tank an army’s worth of firepower.
Things to be said for making it a Defiler squadron and starting them all near a Gnarlmaw. Three battlecannons advancing and hitting on 3’s, that’s some scary pressure. If you bring a Nurgle Daemons detachment, Horticulous can drop another one down for them to do it again T2. This will take some practice to get right, though - it’s got a pretty unforgiving landing zone.
NURGLE DAEMON units that are within 7" of any Feculent Gnarlmaws at the start of their turn can shoot and/or charge this turn, even if they Fell Back or Advanced.
lindsay40k wrote: Things to be said for making it a Defiler squadron and starting them all near a Gnarlmaw. Three battlecannons advancing and hitting on 3’s, that’s some scary pressure. If you bring a Nurgle Daemons detachment, Horticulous can drop another one down for them to do it again T2. This will take some practice to get right, though - it’s got a pretty unforgiving landing zone.
Purged Oblits near a Gnarlmaw could also be effective, potentially retooling everything to hit without needing a character, and effectively having a 0+ save. I haven't tried it with newblits so I don't know if it's cost effective.
I run black legion nurgle oblits near a tree and a dark apostle for -1 to hit. No one wants to deal with -1 to hit 0+ save oblits that have 2 different ways to heal (nurgle herald and csm strat). That makes them so powerful and effective at keeping enemies 24" away.
lindsay40k wrote: Things to be said for making it a Defiler squadron and starting them all near a Gnarlmaw. Three battlecannons advancing and hitting on 3’s, that’s some scary pressure. If you bring a Nurgle Daemons detachment, Horticulous can drop another one down for them to do it again T2. This will take some practice to get right, though - it’s got a pretty unforgiving landing zone.
Purged Oblits near a Gnarlmaw could also be effective, potentially retooling everything to hit without needing a character, and effectively having a 0+ save. I haven't tried it with newblits so I don't know if it's cost effective.
Except that you need to have wounded the targeted unit allready. Might be an issue, might not.
Also doubling up the firepower still will be better imo.
So.. I just watched a battlerep on youtube by mini wargaming. The chaos list wasn't even that terrible a list. Its was a relatively fluffy list though. Had a lot of shadowspear stuff.. Had a LD, 2 Venomcrawlers, 1 hellbrute, 3 Rhinos with 30 space marines in them, Abaddon and a dark apostle. Oh, and it had 3 Oblits too.
Wasn't that bad, most stuff are vehicles in turn 1, and Oblits started in cover so they have 1+ save.
It was facing a Tau army ...
Turn 1, Oblits and the LD die to shooting.
Turn 2, Both the Venomcrawlers and the Hellbrutes dies.
Turn 3, (in turn 2, alll 30 space marines piled out and charged into the sacrificial firewarrior line). Anyway, turn 3, all the space marines are killed to a man, and one Rhino.
At this point, they called it, because the CSM only had Abby, the dark apostle and one damaged Rhino left.
Ehhh... talk about a brutal game to watch. :X But it kinda reinforces my point. Oblits are too expensive to throw away, if they die without doing anything, thats over 300 points you just lost. And the venomcrawlers also die so easily, and so does any LD that doesn't have indomitable (which that LD didnt have).
Nurgle vs slaanesh oblits come down to 2 things. Support and survival.
Nurgle oblits with the proper support (tree and a sorcerer/ herald / dark apostle, pick your support options) is very hard to deal with, they become next to impossible to move unless an unusually high level of firepower is poured into them. Nurgblits can start the game on the table and expect to still be around turn 3. The down side is they need to stay near the tree to get its protection. Alternatively you can deep strike them and the tree (use the strat from the deamons codex) t2 to make a 24" radius of fire support anywhere you want on the table. Deep strike a sorcerer with them (jump pack or term armor) and then next turn summon a herald of nurgle if you need to give them extra support. This is a rock setup.
Slaanesh on the other hand is the hammer setup. Very simple and easy to use. Deep strike, fire, pop endlessly canophy on them, nuke 2 things t2. You can also put the 5+++ feel no pain onto them to help keep them alive if you want. However even with that they are going to be a target, 4w t5 and 2+/5++/5+++ is hard to get through but a lot easier than 4w t5 0+/5++ with the ability to heal 2d3 wounds a turn. Also the slaanesh setup does more damage overall which makes it a bigger threat which equals bigger target.
Either way works as far as i can tell. It comes down to what else is in your army and what you need them for, defense or offense.
Eldenfirefly wrote: So.. I just watched a battlerep on youtube by mini wargaming. The chaos list wasn't even that terrible a list. Its was a relatively fluffy list though. Had a lot of shadowspear stuff.. Had a LD, 2 Venomcrawlers, 1 hellbrute, 3 Rhinos with 30 space marines in them, Abaddon and a dark apostle. Oh, and it had 3 Oblits too.
Wasn't that bad, most stuff are vehicles in turn 1, and Oblits started in cover so they have 1+ save.
It was facing a Tau army ...
Turn 1, Oblits and the LD die to shooting.
Turn 2, Both the Venomcrawlers and the Hellbrutes dies.
Turn 3, (in turn 2, alll 30 space marines piled out and charged into the sacrificial firewarrior line). Anyway, turn 3, all the space marines are killed to a man, and one Rhino.
At this point, they called it, because the CSM only had Abby, the dark apostle and one damaged Rhino left.
Ehhh... talk about a brutal game to watch. :X But it kinda reinforces my point. Oblits are too expensive to throw away, if they die without doing anything, thats over 300 points you just lost. And the venomcrawlers also die so easily, and so does any LD that doesn't have indomitable (which that LD didnt have).
I mean the lists fields DA's (meh) The overpriced daemonic Rhinos, (MEEEEHH) 30 non RC marines it seems (I mean yeah sure but why bring aby and his morale immunity and not making use of it ?)
Alone the marine part and the rhinos is over 500 pts, which could've been significantly cut down and added maybe annother LD or DP with wings.
There is also no sorcerer in this list.
I mean all it really shows is that CSM still are MSU only to not be apoint sink, Psy is absolutely necessary, and recycling shenanigans needed.
There's been this debate at my FLGS about what could go into a World Eaters Codex. The topic just keeps coming up, it's something everyone wants to talk about but no one sees how it could work.
Played a friendly game last night as deep-striking World Eaters. Put 4 5-man units of Berzerkers in a Kharybdis Assault Claw to see what they could do. The rest of the list was a Juggerlord, a Terminator Lord, a couple Skullmasters, 2 20-thing Bloodletter bombs, Flesh Hounds, a Deredeo, and a ton of Cultists. My opponent was an Imperial Knights and Astra Militarum force.
The KAC and the Berzerkers did surprisingly well. My opponent was setting up his army to avoid deep-striking Bloodletters, who he saw as the superior threat. This left a gap where the KAC and the Berzekers were able to drop in, charge a Knight, kill it in a single turn, then consolidate into tanks to tie them up. The Bloodletters came in next turn, chewing through infantry while the Berzerkers took care of the armor. By the fourth turn, it was just tanks and Armigers on the board and most of them were in close combat.
Khorne units usually disappoint me in 8th edition, they really do get one great assault at most before they fall apart. Playing them as a massed force like this was different, they were able to cause disruption all over the board and hit each flank in sequence. My opponent didn't really have any choice besides castling, which meant my units were constantly consolidating into close combat and they were rarely exposed to significant shooting.
The KAC, while terribly expensive, was totally worth it for the deep strike. Combined with deep-striking Bloodletters, it really kept my opponent off-balance and unable to effectively respond to all the assaults. Maybe a Terrax Assault Drill could by a cheaper alternative for delivery for the KAC, but the melta cutters were a big part of the assault too. It was dishing out about 9 wounds average each turn it charged.
When KAC hits, it hits hard. But it’s such a massive crapshoot, most of the time it’ll whiff.
Raptorial Host feels like a solid part of a WE army. Rendezvous the Warp Talons with like Karanak or a Skullreaver Prince and they make a mess in their own right and also get to run around tagging key units & preventing OW.
So i maybee getting myself the shadowspear box and make a fluffly little side army, now and wanted to kitbash a small army. 1000 pts.
The idea is to maximize the purge trait via applying MSU units to generate more Rerolls for all other units.
All is purge so all is Nurgle.
Battalion:
HQ Sorcerer or MoP (MoP model)
Lord with Combi plas and chainaxe.
Troops:
5 CSM with AC
5 CSM with Chaincannon
5 CSM with Missile launcher
Fast
3 CSM Biker
Heavy support detachment
HQ Sorcerer Staff Combibolter
Heavy Support
1 Obliterator
1 Obliterator
1 Venomcrawler.
Total pts so far 957.
Now two things are questions which i am undecided yet:
A: Should i hand out Combi weapons for the smaller squads (sadly i only got enough kit for 1 Combiplas)
B: Should i go instead for a jumppack upgrade for the purge relic grenade?
thoughts so far:
MoP seems a bit lackluster in this list, i got 1 Daemon engine, that's it the rest can't profit from him so he will do as a sorc stand in.
Positive, all units except the venom crawler profit from the trait, so i technically got full rerolls available if i focus fire. I also am thinking of running two times miasma of pestilence for more survivability Prescience is not something i need for the list due to the purge trait and the ammount of units capable of "Marking" units.
I also will have enough CP due to not getting access to either Cacophony or Votwl, .
Alternate take:
This list would also work with the scourged trait, this time however rerolling the special equipment ifit fails, would also gain access to the Book of falsehoods, which in conjunction with a MoP baseline ability would make for a Potent screw you for any psyker list. Bonus points due to beeing able to also use CP for more relics.
Also Special detachments:pretty much useless, but might be worth it to get one anyways to get acess to more warlordtraits.
Altough probably not.
lindsay40k wrote: When KAC hits, it hits hard. But it’s such a massive crapshoot, most of the time it’ll whiff.
Raptorial Host feels like a solid part of a WE army. Rendezvous the Warp Talons with like Karanak or a Skullreaver Prince and they make a mess in their own right and also get to run around tagging key units & preventing OW.
True, but it's the charge roll that's inconsistent, not the attacks. The KAC made a 9 inch charge, the melta cutters hit on a 2+ with a single attack at S16 with 2d6 D.
It dropped 4 units of Berzerkers into charge range, 2 of them made it in. This was followed by 2 20-man Bloodletter Bombs, both of which were buffed by a Skullmaster.
Maybe the KAC would have been destroyed if it hadn't made the charge. But the only thing it did was 8 wounds on the Knight. The Berzerkers and Bloodletters may have been enough, I had units on most of the objectives by the time everything was on the table.
Again, offering these thoughts from the perspective of how to make Khorne work. Not competitive but certainly enjoyable.
Oh, yes, if you manage to get a KAC into the enemy, it’s a wrecking ball! I’m quite fond of deploying it, shrouding it, and warptiming it into the densest concentration of victims I can
lindsay40k wrote: When KAC hits, it hits hard. But it’s such a massive crapshoot, most of the time it’ll whiff.
Raptorial Host feels like a solid part of a WE army. Rendezvous the Warp Talons with like Karanak or a Skullreaver Prince and they make a mess in their own right and also get to run around tagging key units & preventing OW.
True, but it's the charge roll that's inconsistent, not the attacks. The KAC made a 9 inch charge, the melta cutters hit on a 2+ with a single attack at S16 with 2d6 D.
It dropped 4 units of Berzerkers into charge range, 2 of them made it in. This was followed by 2 20-man Bloodletter Bombs, both of which were buffed by a Skullmaster.
Maybe the KAC would have been destroyed if it hadn't made the charge. But the only thing it did was 8 wounds on the Knight. The Berzerkers and Bloodletters may have been enough, I had units on most of the objectives by the time everything was on the table.
Again, offering these thoughts from the perspective of how to make Khorne work. Not competitive but certainly enjoyable.
That's interesting. But I think the harder question to ask was ... was your opponent inexperienced and never faced such a melee khorne army before? Was the whole battle won and lost in the deployment phase already.
He was playing AM. By right he should have had an abundance of chaff with which to do screening. If he had deployed correctly, he shouldn't have presented you any opening at all in which to charge into anything important other than chaff. This should have been true in turn 1, as well as in turn 2, when you deep struck in.
If he had any idea how deadly a blood letter bomb was, the screening should have been the priority during his deployment, and first, second turn movement. So, the question is, if you face an opponent who knew to screen his army in such a way that nothing can be charged except chaff, would this army still be able to win despite that?
And the other question is, what happens if your opponent goes first? So he gets a whole round of shooting in before you even get to move. Don't get me wrong, I love your lists, and I want to find out more what you are trying. But there must be a reason why Khorne Berserker lists aren't that popular. So, either they are really hard to play well, or they suffer a significant disadvantage once the opponent gets to go first or screens effectively or something.
lindsay40k wrote: When KAC hits, it hits hard. But it’s such a massive crapshoot, most of the time it’ll whiff.
Raptorial Host feels like a solid part of a WE army. Rendezvous the Warp Talons with like Karanak or a Skullreaver Prince and they make a mess in their own right and also get to run around tagging key units & preventing OW.
True, but it's the charge roll that's inconsistent, not the attacks. The KAC made a 9 inch charge, the melta cutters hit on a 2+ with a single attack at S16 with 2d6 D.
It dropped 4 units of Berzerkers into charge range, 2 of them made it in. This was followed by 2 20-man Bloodletter Bombs, both of which were buffed by a Skullmaster.
Maybe the KAC would have been destroyed if it hadn't made the charge. But the only thing it did was 8 wounds on the Knight. The Berzerkers and Bloodletters may have been enough, I had units on most of the objectives by the time everything was on the table.
Again, offering these thoughts from the perspective of how to make Khorne work. Not competitive but certainly enjoyable.
That's interesting. But I think the harder question to ask was ... was your opponent inexperienced and never faced such a melee khorne army before? Was the whole battle won and lost in the deployment phase already.
He was playing AM. By right he should have had an abundance of chaff with which to do screening. If he had deployed correctly, he shouldn't have presented you any opening at all in which to charge into anything important other than chaff. This should have been true in turn 1, as well as in turn 2, when you deep struck in.
If he had any idea how deadly a blood letter bomb was, the screening should have been the priority during his deployment, and first, second turn movement. So, the question is, if you face an opponent who knew to screen his army in such a way that nothing can be charged except chaff, would this army still be able to win despite that?
And the other question is, what happens if your opponent goes first? So he gets a whole round of shooting in before you even get to move. Don't get me wrong, I love your lists, and I want to find out more what you are trying. But there must be a reason why Khorne Berserker lists aren't that popular. So, either they are really hard to play well, or they suffer a significant disadvantage once the opponent gets to go first or screens effectively or something.
This is a list I've faced several times before with my Black Legion army, played by someone I consider competent.
While I don't have his list in front of me, what I recall is there was a Castellan, 2 Armigers, 2 Basilisks, 2 Hellhounds, a Leman Russ, 3 Mortars, various HQs and something like 8 Infantry squads.
His problem wasn't with screens so much as board control. I had the characters on Juggernauts moving up behind the Cultists so they could buff Bloodletters, he was spreading his troops out to take away good spots to arrive like you're supposed to.
But I think he was too focused on the center of the table, where my HQs were, expecting me to have everything deep strike there. He moved his Castellan up along with most of his Infantry, which created an opportunity for the KAC.
This created some other disadvantages for him. His turn 3, he shot up the Deredeo, the Flesh Hounds, and one of my Skulltakers before charging my remaining HQs with 20 Infantry. This gave me a better spot to drop the Bloodletters, who could the multicharge Infantry / HWTs .
But the units on the left were tied up with Berzerkers, so he had Infantry charging from the right that were previously screening against Bloodletters. So in my turn 3, I brought in both squads of Bloodletters and they were able to multicharge infantry and HWTs. And it went on from there...
To answer your question, Berzerker lists are not that popular because they often only get one charge off and do little damage. It's not that hard to just move away from Berzerkers while the rest of your army shoots them. My opponent did not have that option, he had so many models on the table they were getting in each other's way.
How many cultists did you have? Sounds like you had so many bodies he just couldn't cope. Although, if he had 8 squads of infantry, that's 80 bodies already... lol Must have been one really congested board....
Eldenfirefly wrote: How many cultists did you have? Sounds like you had so many bodies he just couldn't cope. Although, if he had 8 squads of infantry, that's 80 bodies already... lol Must have been one really congested board....
We both brought a lot of models but the board wasn't too congested. At least it didn't stay that way long.
I only had 28 Cultists. Their job was to shield the HQs marching up the board, afterwards they died quickly. Even when the 20 Berzerkers and 40 Bloodletters came on, they were destroying equal numbers of models so it never got too crazy.
The premise of his list is board control, his infantry is supposed to spread out and grab objectives while opponents tangle with his big guns. The drawbacks to having that many Infantry units are that they can't spread out fast enough to avoid multi-charges and bigger models (like tanks) can't move around them. So, yeah, for a turn, his army was just this huge blob covering about a quarter of the table.
If you can picture this in your head, I had Berzerkers on the left, Bloodletters in the middle and on the right, a Juggerlord and Skullmaster in between the Bloodletters, and a KAC moving across his table edge. Turn 3, they destroyed about 50 Guardsmen. By the end of turn 4, he was down to an Infantry squad, a Mortar, an Armiger, a Hellhound, a LR, and the Basilisks, many of which were locked in combat. At the end of turn 5, he was down to a LR and the Basilisks and conceded. I still had about half my Bloodletters, 15 Berzerkers, the Juggerlord, and another 10-man squad of Bloodletters sitting on an objective.
His problem was he couldn't get out of the way fast enough after turn 3, most of his army was in charge range of something. He tried to move back to form a gunline behind the Hellhounds and Infantry squads, but this screwed him because now everything was blobbed up and taking penalties for moving and shooting. I remember thinking he should have been playing Tallarn, he wasted a lot of shots finishing off the KAC.
lindsay40k wrote: Not really much point building quad heavy bolter rapiers, now, eh?
Because of the reaper? I dunno, i guess they still have their place due to the range. This was always on my to do list to kitbash some of these but never got round to it. Not sure i'll bother now.
Hey guys I have read alot about daemon engine builds and how its never going to be top tier- and Im fine with that. I really like the look of the models so I am just trying to build something that can be semi competitive and I want to put on the board. So thus far I have I have this-
Disco Lord
Daemon Prince with wings
Master of Possession
WarpSmith
So I was starting with the old Red Corsairs minimum sized squads for the extra command points. However, I dont think I want to go in that direction, I think I want this to be more a mixture of daemons and daemon engines.
So my question is what are my options for daemons that dont take alot of points that would help the daemon engines, give me the command points I need and allow me to use the models I want to use.
So for Khorne I could use Karanak and 3 min sized squads of hounds? I dont have the daemons book so I dont know what I would need to take and what would help my engines.
I could do a heavy detachment with
Maulerfiend
2xVenomCrawlers
Daemon Prince
But then I am unsure how to get in a few oblits. I was also thinking of adding either another daemon prince or another disco lord. Thoughts?
Thanks!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Are blood thirsters any good?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also could someone explain the loci thing and who has what?
Thanks.
Locis are given by chaos deamon hq's from the deamon codex but the entire detachment has to be dedicated to a single god.
5 obliterators is way too much. They are expensive enough as it is at 115, 5 of them.... thats too much. Max 3 will do a ton of work.
I disagree that deamonforge armies cant be competitive, they have a lot going on for them. They do require some serious thought on the list building end to work well though. Venomcrawlers work really well with heralds / greater possessed backing them up.
Example : a slaanesh deamon herald, a greater possessed slaanesh, and 2 venom crawlers of slaanesh will give the venom crawlers +2 to their strength. The herald also lets them advance and shoot. Finally because they use assault weapons they are still able to put out firepower at bs4.
Switch it to khorne and give the herald the crimson crown and your kill team is slower, not able to advance and charge, but wound rolls of 6 generate additonal shots.
Thats the kind of mixing that makes deamon engine forces work.
Finally lord discordants have 2 successful ways of running them. If you run 1 you make it black legion and make it the warlord. Give it the Indomitable warlord trait and the mark of nurgle. This gives it healing options on top of survivability. Alternatively go 3 of them so when one dies the rest of the deamon engine hoard isnt taking a massive loss.
As for cp, red corsairs is the way to go still. 3 squads of 5 marines, put a rotor chain cannon in each squad, and take 2 sorcerers as your hqs. I suggest them because they are the only support charecter whos abilities (spells) do not care about legion friendly targets, just chaos god and heretic astraties. This lets your main force be whatever you wish with the knowledge that buffs that your units get / give effect everything and everyone except the 3 chain gunning marine squads which you put in cover and let them do their anti infantry thing.
sturguard wrote: Hey guys I have read alot about daemon engine builds and how its never going to be top tier- and Im fine with that. I really like the look of the models so I am just trying to build something that can be semi competitive and I want to put on the board. So thus far I have I have this-
Disco Lord
Daemon Prince with wings
Master of Possession
WarpSmith
So I was starting with the old Red Corsairs minimum sized squads for the extra command points. However, I dont think I want to go in that direction, I think I want this to be more a mixture of daemons and daemon engines.
So my question is what are my options for daemons that dont take alot of points that would help the daemon engines, give me the command points I need and allow me to use the models I want to use.
So for Khorne I could use Karanak and 3 min sized squads of hounds? I dont have the daemons book so I dont know what I would need to take and what would help my engines.
I could do a heavy detachment with
Maulerfiend
2xVenomCrawlers
Daemon Prince
But then I am unsure how to get in a few oblits. I was also thinking of adding either another daemon prince or another disco lord. Thoughts?
Thanks!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Are blood thirsters any good?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also could someone explain the loci thing and who has what?
Thanks.
If you can, replace the venomcrawlers with defilers, for 6 pts more you get a better daemonengine.
I'd also still would go for a battalions worth of csm.
Maybee modify one venomcrawler into another Lord discordant?
sturguard wrote: Hey guys I have read alot about daemon engine builds and how its never going to be top tier- and Im fine with that. I really like the look of the models so I am just trying to build something that can be semi competitive and I want to put on the board. So thus far I have I have this-
Disco Lord
Daemon Prince with wings
Master of Possession
WarpSmith
So I was starting with the old Red Corsairs minimum sized squads for the extra command points. However, I dont think I want to go in that direction, I think I want this to be more a mixture of daemons and daemon engines.
So my question is what are my options for daemons that dont take alot of points that would help the daemon engines, give me the command points I need and allow me to use the models I want to use.
So for Khorne I could use Karanak and 3 min sized squads of hounds? I dont have the daemons book so I dont know what I would need to take and what would help my engines.
I could do a heavy detachment with
Maulerfiend
2xVenomCrawlers
Daemon Prince
But then I am unsure how to get in a few oblits. I was also thinking of adding either another daemon prince or another disco lord. Thoughts?
Thanks!
I collect Word Bearers and mainly field them as a Daemonkin list with a Daemons detachment, a Daemon Engine jamboree with an Oblit or three, and another detachment of either a monotheist Legion or more Word Bearers. My go-to Daemon detachments are:
Poxbringer, Epidemius, Nurglings, Nurglings, Plaguebearers: solid CP battery, gives healing to the Daemons and also enhances their shooting, once you’ve got a few kills they don’t need a DP or CL to provide them rerolls. Epidemius and a PB screen are a solid anchor for the deployment zone that won’t concede an objective without a serious fight. Throw in a Gnarlmaw and there’s a lot of shenanigans to be had with T1 advance-Warptime advance-shoot-charge.
Herald of Slaanesh on Steed, Fiend, Fiend, Fiend, sometimes a DP or KoS: this CP-neutral combo accompanies a Warptimer and a Master of the Soulforges to make multiple T1 charges that the enemy aren’t allowed to fall back from. Hilarious when it works. Replacing the Index stuff with a Contorted Epitome and Infernal Enrapturess is on my to-do list.
Karanak, Bloodmaster with Crimson Crown, DP with Skullreaver, reinforcement points for a Skull Altar: This lot are running on a CP deficit until I get 30-50 Bloodletters bought and built. I use them alongside a Possessed horde and Warp Talons as well as the Daemon engines. The BM runs forward then summons the Altar. Karanak and DP provide charge reroll auras, Knight killing, and DTW coverage.
Changeling, Herald on Disc, 20 Pink Horrors, Blue & Brimstone Horrors: Bit of a wild card, not exactly a perfect fit for a Daemonkin army, but buffed Horrors have some serious firepower and Changeling’s aura can’t be ignored by my usual opponent’s Space Wolf gunline. Sometimes take three brimstone squads and summon the Pinks, to avoid alpha strike.
Azuza and Lindsay,
Thanks for the in depth responses. So I managed to find what the loci do online, it looks like Slaanesh and Khorne are the two that would most benefit what I want to do, not to mention, I think I want to stay away from Nurgle, while they have some very tough units, it seems like they do better the more nurgle units you have.
So it looks like Ill be keeping my 3x5 Red Corsair marines. I was going to do 2x5 man with chaincannon, and then maybe 1x10 with 2 autocannons or even lascannons?
I only listed I had 5 oblits, not that I would use them all. With a price tag of 115 (did that ever get confirmed?) they seem expensive for what they do, however, I really like the models so want to include at least 2 of them.
My plan was to have a two pronged attack, one group of units shooting while the other advanced to assault.
Daemon Prince, Disco Lord, Maulerfiend advance, while the venom crawlers, oblits, master of possession, warpsmith and greater possessed kind of castle in a blob to shoot. The greater possessed will add +1 str to the venom crawlers shots, the MoP casts cursed earth to up their invuls to 4+, and the warpsmith and MoP heal the venom crawlers, up to 7 damage a turn.
However, originally when I was designing a list, I was going to put a KyTan in there or a Lord of Skulls- to me my plan is flawed because if an opponent wants to take out a venomcrawler in a turn, that would be easy enough, by the time it got to my turn there wouldnt be anything to heal. So maybe I dont need the MoP and Warpsmith unless I am using a SuperHeavy. So if I take him out, it seems like I have to protect the venom crawlers by presenting targets that are more dangerous (ie the assault group).
I did go through all the demons, my problem is for this army, I have to like the looks of the models. I have to say, Im not a fan of many base demons. I love the bloodthirster. I like Karanak and the hounds, but thats about it from Khorne line- although the Bloodmaster is fine too. Can I put the crown on a herald thats on a juggernaut and if so, does he have to be the armies warlord?
I really like the new Keeper of Secrets model that is a special character, with the shield and spear.Also like Syll Esske, who I have heard is better than a daemon prince in almost every way. However, Im not really a fan of any of the Slaneesh demon models. I mean I could probably bear having seekers in there or fiends, but they really dont do it for me. If I did seekers, I probably would have to find the old metal ones, I liked them so much better.
Anyways, so any additional thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Can I put the crown on a herald thats on a juggernaut and if so, does he have to be the armies warlord?
Yes, then no. Relics are a bit different to things like Loci, so here’s the rundown:
Your choice of Warlord unlocks a single free Relic, that has to be taken from their Codex*, and can be given to any eligible character. Doesn’t have to be given to your Warlord - indeed, if your Warlord is a unique character (Karanak, Khârn, etc), they’re not allowed to have a Relic at all.
You can spend CP to unlock extra Relics via Stratagems. You need a Detachment** that’s entirely taken from the Codex* you want the Relics from. So far, the standard is pay 1CP to get a single bonus Relic, and pay 3CP to get two.
So, if your Warlord is a Chaos Space Marine, they get a Warlord Trait, and you can give a Chaos Space Marine generic Character of your choice a Relic. If you’ve got a detachment of Daemons, you can spend 1CP to give a generic Daemon character - who can be a Skullmaster (Juggerherald) a Crimson Crown.
*or expansion - Vigilus and that
**not an Auxiliary one, where you get a single unit - a proper full detachment like a Battalion, Spearhead, Patrol, etc
KoS & Syll’eske are doable. Add either three Fiends or another Slaaneshi Daemon HQ and you’ve got a legit detachment. (Expect a single KoS to be a bullet sponge, though - either deep strike it or equip it for defence.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sturguard wrote: So Im just spit balling here, not sure of points, just looking at the models I like and thinking about a battle plan-
Disco Lord
Daemon Prince
3x5 CSM w/chaincannon
Greater Possessed
Defiler
Venom Crawler x 2
Discolord
Maulerfiend
Maulerfiend
2x Oblits
Karanak
3x5 Hounds?
Assuming this is a Khorne Daemonkin list, I’d recommend moving the DP to Karanak’s Detachment, to give it +1A+S and access to Skullreaver and a Locus of rerolling charges. Also, perhaps try to add a Warpsmith; put them in a Spearhead with all the Daemon Engines, make him a Master of the Soulforges, and you’re getting 4” closer to a T2 mass charge. Do you have a particular Legion in mind?
Lindsay,
See that's where I get all confused, with what effects what.
Making a daemon price khorne doesnt seem good, after all you miss out on the sorcerer side of things for +1 attack and warptime seems too good.
What about the keeper with the shield and spear? How much does he cost? I dont see alot of lists with greater daemons, are they kind of subpar? Bloodthirster any good?
On the other hand, I could just go with 3 hellbrutes with lascannons? So you kind of have 3 tiers, Maulerfiend, Daemon Price, Disco Lords, then venom crawlers, and finally hellbrutes- enough target saturation? Are hellbrutes any good- granted they get off my kick of daemons and daemon engines....
So something I just noticed (well I had noticed before, but it had a chance to sink in)-
Lots of folks have been using Red Corsairs because with 3 small units of csm you generate 3 extra command points.
The Black Legion Warlord Trait trusted leader should actually provide me just as many potential command points if I were to use a battalion plus say a vanguard. You start with 9 command points you should get 3 back. Now some games you may get less but other games you might get more. Im not saying Black Legion is better, but they certainly do have access to more stratagems, relics and objectives.
dumb? question... because it seems counter intuitive. The Talon of Horus isn't considered a bolter weapon right? so it doesn't benefit from bolter discipline?
xenoterracide wrote: dumb? question... because it seems counter intuitive. The Talon of Horus isn't considered a bolter weapon right? so it doesn't benefit from bolter discipline?
it is considered a bolter and does benefit. I think when they announced the rule they specifically named it
sturguard wrote: Lindsay,
See that's where I get all confused, with what effects what.
Making a daemon price khorne doesnt seem good, after all you miss out on the sorcerer side of things for +1 attack and warptime seems too good.
What about the keeper with the shield and spear? How much does he cost? I dont see alot of lists with greater daemons, are they kind of subpar? Bloodthirster any good?
On the other hand, I could just go with 3 hellbrutes with lascannons? So you kind of have 3 tiers, Maulerfiend, Daemon Price, Disco Lords, then venom crawlers, and finally hellbrutes- enough target saturation? Are hellbrutes any good- granted they get off my kick of daemons and daemon engines....
Yes, if you’re not going pure Khorne, a Daemon Prince with a spell like Warptime is absolutely a solid choice. Khorne DPs are indeed generally subpar - it’s the Skullreaver Relic from Codex Daemons that makes them viable, they can kill nearly anything with it.
The problem with Greater Daemons is they are too big to hide, and they are so damn scary they attract loads of firepower. A single GD, if specced for survival by the KoS Shield, LoC Impossible Robe, or being a GUO, will soak up a lot of shooting if deployed, but will struggle to reach anything worth hitting and will need to teleport into play to be sure of getting close (which in turn can be shut down with screening). If you want to walk a GD up the table and get stuck in, your choices are either to take a KoS and get first turn, or to take two GDs so that one will survive. They do seem a bit overcosted for competitive, but they can work in casual.
Helbrutes are reasonably costed for what they do, these days. If you’re going for armoured target saturation, they’re an ok source of wounds.
Indomitable and abby's half damage, am I right that these are useless to small arms fire where the damage is only 1 per attack? so if abby is surrounded by 20 guys and they get off 8 damage somehow.... I find myself extra confused when it comes to wounds, allocated wounds (local meta has a fair number of DG), damage ( when models are removed? e.g. after the whole unit has finished attacking), etc.
Yes, damage is rounded up, after halving. So 0,5 becomes 1. If abby is surrounded by 20 guns and they get off 8 damage from boltguns, or any other D1 weapon, he is dead.
xenoterracide wrote: Indomitable and abby's half damage, am I right that these are useless to small arms fire where the damage is only 1 per attack? so if abby is surrounded by 20 guys and they get off 8 damage somehow.... I find myself extra confused when it comes to wounds, allocated wounds (local meta has a fair number of DG), damage, etc, etc.
Yes, half of 1 damage is still 1 damage. But Abby usually doesn't need to worry that much about small arms fire. Firstly, Abby is T5. So, usually small arms fire need a 5 to wound him. Secondly, he is wearing terminator armor giving him a 2+ armor save. And small arms fire usually doesn't have any AP. So, you would need a massive number of shots, doing a massive number of wounds to afffect Abby.
I don't know if I've asked this before (probably have lol), but do you think that the rules for the non-legion Chaos warbands found in Vigilus Ablaze will ever be separated and put somewhere else?
xenoterracide wrote: Indomitable and abby's half damage, am I right that these are useless to small arms fire where the damage is only 1 per attack? so if abby is surrounded by 20 guys and they get off 8 damage somehow.... I find myself extra confused when it comes to wounds, allocated wounds (local meta has a fair number of DG), damage, etc, etc.
Yes, half of 1 damage is still 1 damage. But Abby usually doesn't need to worry that much about small arms fire. Firstly, Abby is T5. So, usually small arms fire need a 5 to wound him. Secondly, he is wearing terminator armor giving him a 2+ armor save. And small arms fire usually doesn't have any AP. So, you would need a massive number of shots, doing a massive number of wounds to afffect Abby.
and if they doi have AP it's almost never more the -1.
Bought a box of terminators for my iron warriors but want to give them chain axes and the champion will have a lightning claw for extra punch against infantry.
Anyone know if it's possible to convert them easily to hold chain axes and where to actually get some? Forgeworld do some great ones but delivery is so much for such a small product
Rogerio134134 wrote: Bought a box of terminators for my iron warriors but want to give them chain axes and the champion will have a lightning claw for extra punch against infantry.
Anyone know if it's possible to convert them easily to hold chain axes and where to actually get some? Forgeworld do some great ones but delivery is so much for such a small product
ArcaneHorror wrote: I don't know if I've asked this before (probably have lol), but do you think that the rules for the non-legion Chaos warbands found in Vigilus Ablaze will ever be separated and put somewhere else?
who knows, I just wish they had put all the rules for these things, and from the minicodex into the v2 CSM codex :/
ArcaneHorror wrote: I don't know if I've asked this before (probably have lol), but do you think that the rules for the non-legion Chaos warbands found in Vigilus Ablaze will ever be separated and put somewhere else?
who knows, I just wish they had put all the rules for these things, and from the minicodex into the v2 CSM codex :/
Me too. I was combing the updated codex looking for them and was more than a bit peeved when I found out that I had to buy a $50 campaign book to get them.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I don't know if I've asked this before (probably have lol), but do you think that the rules for the non-legion Chaos warbands found in Vigilus Ablaze will ever be separated and put somewhere else?
who knows, I just wish they had put all the rules for these things, and from the minicodex into the v2 CSM codex :/
Me too. I was combing the updated codex looking for them and was more than a bit peeved when I found out that I had to buy a $50 campaign book to get them.
Don’t forget to bring your Daemonkin Codex if your warlord’s a sorcerer
Facing off against a gunline-ish Space Wolves army of Primaris, would Plasma bikers, Lord of Skulls and Demon Prince with claws be good options? They all deal 2 damage with some high AP.
On the terminator front I'm thinking of having 5 terminators, 1 with reaper Autocannon and the other 4 with combi plasma and chainaxes. With the mark of Slannesh I could either use them to deep strike in and hit a target hard but then probably die or could have them sit in with my havoc's and CSM delivering mid range fire power in the tree reroll bubble.
Only issue is they are about 190 PTS for 5 models but they do pack a punch and have an invulnerable save at least!
Rogerio134134 wrote: On the terminator front I'm thinking of having 5 terminators, 1 with reaper Autocannon and the other 4 with combi plasma and chainaxes. With the mark of Slannesh I could either use them to deep strike in and hit a target hard but then probably die or could have them sit in with my havoc's and CSM delivering mid range fire power in the tree reroll bubble.
Only issue is they are about 190 PTS for 5 models but they do pack a punch and have an invulnerable save at least!
TBF, the regular Combibolters are good enough for such a 5 man unit.
So I'm rounding out my last, just watched a battle report and saw what votlw can do for bolters and thought to myself I should have a unit which can benefit from it.
(All my csm are red coursairs, and I'm mostly deamon engines)
I'm thinking terminators or bikers. What's the general consensus on which is better? Bikers seem better on paper to me because of the t4, mobility and less points. Can also add some plasma without losing the bolter shots.
vaklor4 wrote: Facing off against a gunline-ish Space Wolves army of Primaris, would Plasma bikers, Lord of Skulls and Demon Prince with claws be good options? They all deal 2 damage with some high AP.
Yeah, they’re pretty good attack units. Main thing against Primaris Wolves is defence - they can outflank a load of Hellblasters and inflict grievous damage, so be prepared to screen valuable stuff that’s near a table edge. Also, try not to rely too much on hit modifiers - they have a strat that lets a unit ignore it. Or deep strikers - if a Rune Priest (librarian) can see their arrival, he can give a nearby unit a free round of shooting at them.
Hello again all, just back after an hiatus to ask whether (what with the CA and Vigilus tweaks since I was last around), there was currently a 'decent' or 'usable' terminator squad setup out there?
I believe last I heard, the only vaguely usable option was either all-cheap combi-bolters, or a squad of combi-plasmas?
Since I am getting no responses in the army list section, I'll leave it to you guys to help provide some clarity. I started building a CSM army from the new kits, then kind of decided my 30k Thousands Sons army doesnt see much use and its almost completely painted. I think I would rather finish this army off, rather than build a 3rd army. Although I am ok adding some non 30k units in, like maybe some cultists etc. I would just like your thoughts on this. I have LOTS of terminators (I actually have a 4th unit I didnt include in here)
So- Ill also be spending a CP on Council of Traitors
Vanguard Detachment- (Bringers of Despair Specialist Detachment)
Chaos Lord with jump pack, combiplasma, Ghorisvexs Teeth- Warlord Trait- First Amongst Traitors
5 terminators, 3 combiplasma, 2 combibolters, 1 powerfist, 1 chainfist, 3 chainaxes MoT 5 terminators, 3 combiplasma, 2 combibolters, 1 powerfist, 1 chainfist, 3 chainaxes MoT 5 terminators 5 combimeltas, 3 chainaxes, 1 powerfist, 1 chainfist MoT (Yeah, some of the terminators are going to be expensive but they should pack a punch given twith the lord within 6 inches they reroll all hits)
Battalion
Sorcerer in terminator armor- MoT, Warp Time, Weaver of Fates - unholy fortitude (from council of traitors)
Dark Apostle- Trusted War- Leader (from council of traitors)
2 Dark Disciples
3 x 5 csm with chainreaper
5 chosen, 3 combiplasma, 1 plasmagun, 1 with pfist
Now the tricky stuff that I dont have points for etc that is still all painted (dont know how to work this in, not familiar enough with the rules)
2x Castellax-Achea Battle-automata with Æther-flame Cannon (I could count these as normal ones)
Thousand Sons Legion Osiron Pattern Contemptor Dreadnought with assault cannon and the blade, the assault cannon is magnetized the ccw is not sadly.
Magnus
2 space marine rapier quad mortars
Again all this is painted and looks good on the table top. First I dont know how much it costs point wise because of the forgeworld and next, I want a cohesive army that works together on the battlefield. I would like to keep the terminators the focus of the army. I am not opposed to adding units to support this- I thought maybe I would add a termite for the chosen so they could pop out and shoot. I also have a Xiphon that is not painted.
So things Im not sure of-
I dont know how to put in forgeworld units into my army.
I dont know how much said FW units cost as I am just used to 30k, not 40k.
What units would be good to add to my terminator core. I just ordered some FW Outrider bikes. I would just run them as normal CSM bikes, what do people think of bikes? I see you can replace 2 of the 3 bikes with combiplasma, do people like that option as the outriders have the bits for that. Any input would be greatly appreciated. I am thinking of adding in a unit of oblits as well as I love the new models, even though they dont match my 30k army look.
sturguard wrote: Since I am getting no responses in the army list section, I'll leave it to you guys to help provide some clarity. I started building a CSM army from the new kits, then kind of decided my 30k Thousands Sons army doesnt see much use and its almost completely painted. I think I would rather finish this army off, rather than build a 3rd army. Although I am ok adding some non 30k units in, like maybe some cultists etc. I would just like your thoughts on this. I have LOTS of terminators (I actually have a 4th unit I didnt include in here)
So- Ill also be spending a CP on Council of Traitors
Vanguard Detachment- (Bringers of Despair Specialist Detachment)
Chaos Lord with jump pack, combiplasma, Ghorisvexs Teeth- Warlord Trait- First Amongst Traitors
5 terminators, 3 combiplasma, 2 combibolters, 1 powerfist, 1 chainfist, 3 chainaxes MoT 5 terminators, 3 combiplasma, 2 combibolters, 1 powerfist, 1 chainfist, 3 chainaxes MoT 5 terminators 5 combimeltas, 3 chainaxes, 1 powerfist, 1 chainfist MoT (Yeah, some of the terminators are going to be expensive but they should pack a punch given twith the lord within 6 inches they reroll all hits)
Battalion
Sorcerer in terminator armor- MoT, Warp Time, Weaver of Fates - unholy fortitude (from council of traitors)
Dark Apostle- Trusted War- Leader (from council of traitors)
2 Dark Disciples
3 x 5 csm with chainreaper
5 chosen, 3 combiplasma, 1 plasmagun, 1 with pfist
Now the tricky stuff that I dont have points for etc that is still all painted (dont know how to work this in, not familiar enough with the rules)
2x Castellax-Achea Battle-automata with Æther-flame Cannon (I could count these as normal ones)
Thousand Sons Legion Osiron Pattern Contemptor Dreadnought with assault cannon and the blade, the assault cannon is magnetized the ccw is not sadly.
Magnus
2 space marine rapier quad mortars
Again all this is painted and looks good on the table top. First I dont know how much it costs point wise because of the forgeworld and next, I want a cohesive army that works together on the battlefield. I would like to keep the terminators the focus of the army. I am not opposed to adding units to support this- I thought maybe I would add a termite for the chosen so they could pop out and shoot. I also have a Xiphon that is not painted.
So things Im not sure of-
I dont know how to put in forgeworld units into my army.
I dont know how much said FW units cost as I am just used to 30k, not 40k.
What units would be good to add to my terminator core. I just ordered some FW Outrider bikes. I would just run them as normal CSM bikes, what do people think of bikes? I see you can replace 2 of the 3 bikes with combiplasma, do people like that option as the outriders have the bits for that. Any input would be greatly appreciated. I am thinking of adding in a unit of oblits as well as I love the new models, even though they dont match my 30k army look.
The best way to test out what points and options FW 30k models can be used as in 40k is to download battlescribe and add in a FW heratic astartes detachment. There you can browse what has rules and their points.
Bikes are ok now with bolter discipline but I wouldn't invest in combi plasma particularly. They're best imo as harassment and objective grabbing units. To keep 24" away and shoot a lot of bolter shots is useful.
Oblits are powerful but expensive, with VotLW, endless Cacophony prescience and the devastation battery lord nearby they'll kill pretty much any vehicle in the game when they drop for about 440 points (if you take a jump pack lord to drop in with them). However they really need to come in turn 2 after some space is made for them and unfortunately that's what your termies will be doing too.
You could run Magnus as a big distraction, especially turn 2 with -1 to hit and 3++ but you generally would take Ahriman and 2 winged daemon princes to support him and blast around psychic powers.
Finally my pick would be 3 Lord discordants to support this list. They'll draw fire they're relatively tough, cheap and killy plus they're my favourite model from the new chaos lineup.
Ok so I found I made some mistakes in my warlord etc so how about this?
Vanguard Detachment- (Bringers of Despair Specialist Detachment)
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor- Chosen of the Warmaster- Foecleaver
5 terminators, 3 combiplasma, 2 combibolters, 1 powerfist, 1 chainfist, 3 chainaxes MoT 5 terminators, 3 combiplasma, 2 combibolters, 1 powerfist, 1 chainfist, 3 chainaxes MoT 5 terminators 5 combimeltas, 3 chainaxes, 1 powerfist, 1 chainfist MoT
So, now at least I have the Bringers of Despair detachment and my lord outfitted correctly.
I get your point about the oblits, and terminators kind of competing but what if I start the terminators on the board? They are fairly durable, they have a range of 30" with their guns (move and shoot) and all 3 squads should be in range to reroll all their shots.I could also keep the sorcerer and dark apostle nearby to buff those units (give them -1 to be hit, and +1 to their invul save). They should attract enough attention to let the normal CSM units do some damage freely as well as the bikes. The oblits can then come in turn 2 and do their thing. So my question is, if I put the terminators on the board to start with my CSM and bikes, what do I need to add that is going to compete with the terminators for attention?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe I put the plasma terminators on the board and keep the melta ones in reserve to drop with the oblits simply because they will never get a chance to use their melta while walking.
I suppose with the black legion trait you could advance and fire with the units on the board and bikes plus them should clear a space for oblits and melta termies.
You need two sorcerers, the powers are just too good to miss, especially death hex. And I would give them mark of slanesh for double shooting.
As I see it you have 2 options depending on points. More Terminators or a lord discordant or two.
How about havocs, would they draw fire from the termies? I was thinking autocannon havocs since they would be cheap and have the range to stay out of most return fire.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or maybe 2 mixed squads of 2 autocannons/2 lascannons?
Automatically Appended Next Post: So i think given I wont have any of the heavy hitters or autoinclude units, Ill need alot of command points so I can constantly ensure the models on the board are rerolling misses or getting to shoot twice. I think I need to get up to around 12 with the additional CPs on 5's that gives me around 15-16. So I guess I need to aim for 2 battlions and the vanguard. I think a cheap battlion doesnt hurt me as I could use the extra HQs anyways. What would be a cheap battlion that would support just lots of csm bodies? I could always go 3x10 cultists and a sorcerer and jump pack lord but I am not sure how much those cultists will help.
Red cosairs are the obvious choice if you're wanting cheap CP, 2x master of executions and 15 csm come in at 355 points, will generally hold their own and give you 8CP so you're at 14 with a spearhead and second battalion. Which should be plenty. You could stick sorcerers in there for a few extra points and they will still work with your black legion stuff.
If you're wanting to keep it black legion you could fill out a brigade fairly easily with 3x3 bikers and 3x autocannon havocs or some obliterators etc.
Havocs work well if you have a decent ammount of LOS blovking terrain because they can move and shoot without penalty, they're pretty squishy in the open.
I see others are interested in terminators too, I think my plan is to use 5 termies with bolters and an autocannon as a mid range firepower unit, just the 5 of them will pump out 16 bolter and 4 Autocannon shots per turn which is a good amount. I play iron warriors so firing into enemies in cover is good for clearing enemies off objectives.
Rogerio134134 wrote: I see others are interested in terminators too, I think my plan is to use 5 termies with bolters and an autocannon as a mid range firepower unit, just the 5 of them will pump out 16 bolter and 4 Autocannon shots per turn which is a good amount. I play iron warriors so firing into enemies in cover is good for clearing enemies off objectives.
I can reccomend that squad, especially if you go with Chainaxes.
The squad is cheap relatively and with you beeing legion you get VotLW and cacophony.
It's an Utility unit first and foremost.
I just played a fun "Monster Mash" list this weekend, thought I'd share. I used: an Alpha Legion Battalion consisting of a Demon Prince of Slaanesh, Biker Sorcerer (Warptime and Miasma of Pestilence), a Lord Discordant, 26 cultists, 2 x 5 CSMs, a Blood Slaughterer of Khorne, and 2 Maulerfiends; I made that a Soulforged Pack. I also took an Alpha Legion Vanguard with a Warpsmith and 3 Helbrutes with Fists/Scourges. Last, I took a patrol of Abaddon and 30 cultists. We played ITC and I think the army doesn't give up kills very easily, and is still very fast to get Objectives. It causes a lot of target priority confusion, since everything is pretty nasty in combat.
I would think for Alpha Legion you'd rather have shooty Helbrutes to sit back and take advantage of the -1 to be hit. For running Zangiefbrutes, I'd rather have World Eaters (+1 attack on charge) or Red Corsairs (Advance + Charge).
Incidentally @Homeskillet, how did that list perform? I think it's a pretty interesting one actually. What did it struggle against (or did it crush all who dared oppose it?)?
Ok so I'm just painting up my alpha legion and wondering the best way to run them.
I'm thinking of some little tricks etc and had a think about chosen, using the alpha legion stratagem you could put a 5 man chosen squad up close to the enemy with 4 meltas or 4 plasma etc and just blast a tough target, obviously they would die straight after but it could work??
Rogerio134134 wrote: Ok so I'm just painting up my alpha legion and wondering the best way to run them.
I'm thinking of some little tricks etc and had a think about chosen, using the alpha legion stratagem you could put a 5 man chosen squad up close to the enemy with 4 meltas or 4 plasma etc and just blast a tough target, obviously they would die straight after but it could work??
The stratagem got nerfed in a faq, it's now just a pregame movement.
Meltas are worse then plasma also for that matter ust points wise.
cultists, whilest fluffy for AL, are not good for AL, ironically. (you could go with R&H and a bunch of marauders for that sniping agent operatives feel)
Homeskillet wrote: I just played a fun "Monster Mash" list this weekend, thought I'd share. I used: an Alpha Legion Battalion consisting of a Demon Prince of Slaanesh, Biker Sorcerer (Warptime and Miasma of Pestilence), a Lord Discordant, 26 cultists, 2 x 5 CSMs, a Blood Slaughterer of Khorne, and 2 Maulerfiends; I made that a Soulforged Pack. I also took an Alpha Legion Vanguard with a Warpsmith and 3 Helbrutes with Fists/Scourges. Last, I took a patrol of Abaddon and 30 cultists. We played ITC and I think the army doesn't give up kills very easily, and is still very fast to get Objectives. It causes a lot of target priority confusion, since everything is pretty nasty in combat.
Hmmm, I don't know about not giving up kills easily. A hellbrute is actually pretty flimsy, even with the -1 to hit alpha legion trait. Two lucky lascannon hits and its likely to be toast. Same goes for an Alpha legion Lord Discodant. Again, once opponent gets past the -1 to hit, he is only T6, 12 W. And I have seen Maulerfiends go down easily too. It all depends on how lucky you are with its 5+ invul saves. Plus this is a melee army. You are closing the distance so you will be within the 12 inch range soon after which the -1 to hit won't help you. Well, it does look like a fun thematic army. Let us know how it goes.
Homeskillet wrote: I just played a fun "Monster Mash" list this weekend, thought I'd share. I used: an Alpha Legion Battalion consisting of a Demon Prince of Slaanesh, Biker Sorcerer (Warptime and Miasma of Pestilence), a Lord Discordant, 26 cultists, 2 x 5 CSMs, a Blood Slaughterer of Khorne, and 2 Maulerfiends; I made that a Soulforged Pack. I also took an Alpha Legion Vanguard with a Warpsmith and 3 Helbrutes with Fists/Scourges. Last, I took a patrol of Abaddon and 30 cultists. We played ITC and I think the army doesn't give up kills very easily, and is still very fast to get Objectives. It causes a lot of target priority confusion, since everything is pretty nasty in combat.
Hmmm, I don't know about not giving up kills easily. A hellbrute is actually pretty flimsy, even with the -1 to hit alpha legion trait. Two lucky lascannon hits and its likely to be toast. Same goes for an Alpha legion Lord Discodant. Again, once opponent gets past the -1 to hit, he is only T6, 12 W. And I have seen Maulerfiends go down easily too. It all depends on how lucky you are with its 5+ invul saves. Plus this is a melee army. You are closing the distance so you will be within the 12 inch range soon after which the -1 to hit won't help you. Well, it does look like a fun thematic army. Let us know how it goes.
grouchoben wrote: Pappa Nurgle, Alaitoc flyboys and the Greater Good say 'hi'!
I guess his point was more that -most- things die easy in 8th, unless you happen to pick one of the few cheesy units/combos that are particularly annoying.
If you play in tournaments, then you need to play cheese vs cheese. But if you play with normal folks who aren't tfg, then a table full of daemon engines and brutes are likely to be fairly nasty I would think. ymmv i suppose.
With renegade knights codex coming out. It looks like a lot of people will be adding renegades knights to chaos soup. They get so many more toys compared to a LOS or a kytan ravager. Even 1 Knight Tyrant (Valiant) is going to be devastating with those new stuff they are going to get in the new codex. And apparently, the twin avenger gatling knight is still going to be there for renegade knights.
LOS or Kytan ravager gets only a few tricks and strategems for chaos while renegade knights have a whole book of tricks and stuff dedicated to buffing a knight. So, its obviously better.
I don't know about that. We will have to see what is up said Knightley sleeves but there are a lot of tricks you can pull with a los. +1 to invulnerable, +1 to hit rolls, wounds of 6 generate additonal hits, reroll charges, -1 to hit, +1 attack and +2 strength in melee, double move... i could go on but i think i have made my point. Its all about setting up that combo when you build the list that determines what your los can do.
ZergSmasher wrote: I would think for Alpha Legion you'd rather have shooty Helbrutes to sit back and take advantage of the -1 to be hit. For running Zangiefbrutes, I'd rather have World Eaters (+1 attack on charge) or Red Corsairs (Advance + Charge).
Incidentally @Homeskillet, how did that list perform? I think it's a pretty interesting one actually. What did it struggle against (or did it crush all who dared oppose it?)?
Yeah I think if you were to min/max, Red Corsair punchy Helbrutes would be awesome. However, I mainly play Alpha Legion when I'm going Chaos, and just sprinkle in a little of another Legion here and there. Despite my thoughts of the Red Corsairs being better, I did give my Helbrutes Mark of Nurgle, so that I could make at least one of them extra hard to hit with Miasma of Pestilence while they bumrushed enemy lines.
The list did really well, faced against Salamanders using a bunch of Melta and (oddly) Grav Guns. I've only played one game with the list so far; it was just a test run using all my newly built stuff. The Helbrutes struggled against a large group of Thunderhammer/Stormshield Terminators, but got relieved from a charging Abaddon and Demon Prince.
Homeskillet wrote: I just played a fun "Monster Mash" list this weekend, thought I'd share. I used: an Alpha Legion Battalion consisting of a Demon Prince of Slaanesh, Biker Sorcerer (Warptime and Miasma of Pestilence), a Lord Discordant, 26 cultists, 2 x 5 CSMs, a Blood Slaughterer of Khorne, and 2 Maulerfiends; I made that a Soulforged Pack. I also took an Alpha Legion Vanguard with a Warpsmith and 3 Helbrutes with Fists/Scourges. Last, I took a patrol of Abaddon and 30 cultists. We played ITC and I think the army doesn't give up kills very easily, and is still very fast to get Objectives. It causes a lot of target priority confusion, since everything is pretty nasty in combat.
Hmmm, I don't know about not giving up kills easily. A hellbrute is actually pretty flimsy, even with the -1 to hit alpha legion trait. Two lucky lascannon hits and its likely to be toast. Same goes for an Alpha legion Lord Discodant. Again, once opponent gets past the -1 to hit, he is only T6, 12 W. And I have seen Maulerfiends go down easily too. It all depends on how lucky you are with its 5+ invul saves. Plus this is a melee army. You are closing the distance so you will be within the 12 inch range soon after which the -1 to hit won't help you. Well, it does look like a fun thematic army. Let us know how it goes.
Actually 2 lucky Lascannon hits by the average won't kill a Helbrute off. And they actually have to hit at the -1, then wound. So, they're surprisingly durable. Plus I Mark of Nurgled them so the Sorcerer could Miasma one, typically whoever gets out in front of the pack to the priority target. I get your point though, and it is definitely valid: nothing in the list (besides Abaddon) is ridiculously tough. However, that's kind of the fun of it; everything is decently tough, and can hit pretty hard in combat. So it creates target priority problems for the opponent. I'm not saying to watch for this at the next GT, I'm just saying it was fun to play!
So I'm back after a long hiatus, with a barebones plan of the models I have / am making, and was wondering if there were any tips on which warband / options I'd be good to look into?
CSM:
Lord Discordant
Maulerfiend
WiP Infernal Flamestorm Predator
- possibly Oblits
- possibly Helbrutes or FW bots like Contemptors
Daemons:
Skullreaver Daemon Prince (Could be soulstealer/corruption)
... I like Exalted Flamers, and Nurglings, but that leads to a fairly mixed detachment.
Figured the new Soulforged Pack rule might be worth working towards, though will need at least one more big gribbly to run with the discordant.
Thinking Alpha Legion (for survivability) or Renegades (Corsairs, for the advance+charge), might be the best available options? (Edit: Flawless Host is also an option, might work well for the Lord Disco in particular, as well as scourge brutes maybe..)
I know it's fairly vague, I'm just trying to get an idea of what to plan for as I go.
Niiru wrote: So I'm back after a long hiatus, with a barebones plan of the models I have / am making, and was wondering if there were any tips on which warband / options I'd be good to look into?
CSM:
Lord Discordant
Maulerfiend
WiP Infernal Flamestorm Predator
- possibly Oblits
- possibly Helbrutes or FW bots like Contemptors
Daemons:
Skullreaver Daemon Prince (Could be soulstealer/corruption)
... I like Exalted Flamers, and Nurglings, but that leads to a fairly mixed detachment.
Figured the new Soulforged Pack rule might be worth working towards, though will need at least one more big gribbly to run with the discordant.
Thinking Alpha Legion (for survivability) or Renegades (Corsairs, for the advance+charge), might be the best available options? (Edit: Flawless Host is also an option, might work well for the Lord Disco in particular, as well as scourge brutes maybe..)
I know it's fairly vague, I'm just trying to get an idea of what to plan for as I go.
Another Lord discordant, mostly because 1 will not survive if you don't go BL with the half damage trait.
Also the traits STILL don't affect Daemonengines beyond the Lord discordant, but imo the lord discroant is the best daemonengine we got.
I'd go for Red corsairs though mostly for beeing able to avoid CP spendin on Lord discordants for the charge aswell as beeing able to just throw down 15 CSM and gaining 8 CP for that aswell.
Niiru wrote: So I'm back after a long hiatus, with a barebones plan of the models I have / am making, and was wondering if there were any tips on which warband / options I'd be good to look into?
CSM:
Lord Discordant
Maulerfiend
WiP Infernal Flamestorm Predator
- possibly Oblits
- possibly Helbrutes or FW bots like Contemptors
Daemons:
Skullreaver Daemon Prince (Could be soulstealer/corruption)
... I like Exalted Flamers, and Nurglings, but that leads to a fairly mixed detachment.
Figured the new Soulforged Pack rule might be worth working towards, though will need at least one more big gribbly to run with the discordant.
Thinking Alpha Legion (for survivability) or Renegades (Corsairs, for the advance+charge), might be the best available options? (Edit: Flawless Host is also an option, might work well for the Lord Disco in particular, as well as scourge brutes maybe..)
I know it's fairly vague, I'm just trying to get an idea of what to plan for as I go.
Another Lord discordant, mostly because 1 will not survive if you don't go BL with the half damage trait.
Also the traits STILL don't affect Daemonengines beyond the Lord discordant, but imo the lord discroant is the best daemonengine we got.
I'd go for Red corsairs though mostly for beeing able to avoid CP spendin on Lord discordants for the charge aswell as beeing able to just throw down 15 CSM and gaining 8 CP for that aswell.
Yeh true, maybe I will convert my maulerfiend into a second lord discordant haha...
We are playing four ways on saturday and I need your help to choose my army. I will be against IK with Castellan, crusader and two helverins.. then a drukhari flyer spam and ad mech gunline.
My initial idea is I want to test what can a rhino filled with lord and reaper chaincannon havocs do, so I came up with this:
Spoiler:
All havocs and marines are Mark of Slaasnes.
Red corsairs batallion
Huron + prescience + WL Sorceror with jump pack + death hex + warp time
Chaos Lord + thunder hammer + plasma pistol + field commander
Havocs + 4x AC Havocs + 4x LC Havocs + 4x RCC
Chaos rhino + 2x combi-bolters
..but then I realised that if I want to give my RCC havocs the reroll 1's I can't give rerolls to my gunline because Huron doesn't buff Alpha legion. Ok, my plan B would be just change the Alpha legion into Red corsairs, but the -1 to hit is tempting. So I'm thinking a plan C already. Would appreciate some help here to choose.
Plan C:
Spoiler:
Red corsairs batallion
Huron
Sorcerer with jump pack
10x marines + 2x RCC
5x marines
5x marines
Helbrute + TLC + fist
Havocs + 4x RCC
Rhino
Alpha legion devastation battery
Chaos lord + hammer + plasma pistol
Havocs + 4x AC Havocs + 4x LC 2x oblits
This would make Huron go with the RCC Havocs and I would lose 2nd helbrute and 2nd RC recycle marine squad.. but I would have both gunlines with reroll 1's.. so any help?
@Xirax - what’s the scenario? Four player games can go a lot of ways. My usual multiplayer games are Maelstrom, we usually get a big table and my usual approach is to take a Raptor Talon, a lot of Nurglings, and a robust gunline based on screen and tough gunners that can shoot on the move. Start the game with a few objectives, hold the home base as long as possible, and do a deep strike attack against a key target of opportunity. But this is way different from holding specific objectives as long as possible, trying to kill as many units as possible, etc.
Whichever way we play, I never try mechanised deathstars. Everyone with an aversion to getting punched by Chaos lord’s and Berzerkers shoots my rhinos up, it’s like fighting three armies at once. Be the quiet one with a well protected sword.
@Lindsay: Sorry for my english, it's three 1v1 sepparate games this time, usually we end on 2v2 or 3v3, but this time we just play round robin. We also play CA19 maelstorm.
Is there any use for a single obliterator? I only ask because I'm thinking of converting up a model (could do 3), but running 3 of them would eat up 345 points which is a sizeable part of my budget.
I'm attempting to come up with a 'zilla list, with lord discordant, prince, maulerfiend, and I'm not yet sure what else.
Was considering using some barebones Terminators for my 'troops', and I can get 10 of those for less than the cost of 3 oblits. But if I get 3xoblits I think I'll be out of points.
Also considering a 'host raptorial' warp talons strike force. Raptors might be better, not too sure on this atm.
(Basically everything in the list is either a monster, or can teleport)
I used to use solo oblits alot back in earlier editions.
Suicide drop is always a good thing to have in your back pocket. Usually just knowing your opponent has a unit able to deepstrike will make you change your deployment options.
I think Purge Oblits could be useful to finish off any already wounded vehicles/units.
Suicide drop is always a good thing to have in your back pocket. Usually just knowing your opponent has a unit able to deepstrike will make you change your deployment options.
I think Purge Oblits could be useful to finish off any already wounded vehicles/units.
Well Purge or scourged imo.
But a purged Mini reroll Monster is nice.
I just started building up a CSM army (I've been collecting the models off and on for years now). With the new dex out and vigilus book I figured I'd take the plunge so I started watching youtube vids about CSM and one of them mentioned a chaos lord on a bike which happens to be a model I have (from back in 6th). I flipped through the book but I don't see that as an option - just jump packs. Where is everyone else seeing a bike as an option?
necron99 wrote: I just started building up a CSM army (I've been collecting the models off and on for years now). With the new dex out and vigilus book I figured I'd take the plunge so I started watching youtube vids about CSM and one of them mentioned a chaos lord on a bike which happens to be a model I have (from back in 6th). I flipped through the book but I don't see that as an option - just jump packs. Where is everyone else seeing a bike as an option?
Homeskillet wrote: I just played a fun "Monster Mash" list this weekend, thought I'd share. I used: an Alpha Legion Battalion consisting of a Demon Prince of Slaanesh, Biker Sorcerer (Warptime and Miasma of Pestilence), a Lord Discordant, 26 cultists, 2 x 5 CSMs, a Blood Slaughterer of Khorne, and 2 Maulerfiends; I made that a Soulforged Pack. I also took an Alpha Legion Vanguard with a Warpsmith and 3 Helbrutes with Fists/Scourges. Last, I took a patrol of Abaddon and 30 cultists. We played ITC and I think the army doesn't give up kills very easily, and is still very fast to get Objectives. It causes a lot of target priority confusion, since everything is pretty nasty in combat.
Hmmm, I don't know about not giving up kills easily. A hellbrute is actually pretty flimsy, even with the -1 to hit alpha legion trait. Two lucky lascannon hits and its likely to be toast. Same goes for an Alpha legion Lord Discodant. Again, once opponent gets past the -1 to hit, he is only T6, 12 W. And I have seen Maulerfiends go down easily too. It all depends on how lucky you are with its 5+ invul saves. Plus this is a melee army. You are closing the distance so you will be within the 12 inch range soon after which the -1 to hit won't help you. Well, it does look like a fun thematic army. Let us know how it goes.
Nightlord1987 wrote:I used to use solo oblits alot back in earlier editions.
Suicide drop is always a good thing to have in your back pocket. Usually just knowing your opponent has a unit able to deepstrike will make you change your deployment options.
I think Purge Oblits could be useful to finish off any already wounded vehicles/units.
Suicide drop is always a good thing to have in your back pocket. Usually just knowing your opponent has a unit able to deepstrike will make you change your deployment options.
I think Purge Oblits could be useful to finish off any already wounded vehicles/units.
Well Purge or scourged imo.
But a purged Mini reroll Monster is nice.
So the consensus seems to be that solo Purge Oblits are not a terrible idea?
The points debate for it would be whether it would be better to have a deepstriking Oblit, vs a Helbrute with Scourge and Autocannon (which works out at basically the same price).
Slightly different jobs I know, but it seems like the helbrute would be a bigger damage sponge, while the oblit is fragile, but the oblit can jump in and torch something while the helbrute might well die before it gets anywhere. Not sure which is the better damage output...
Not really, overall i deem an 90 pts helbrute with missile and reaper cannon a better investment for the purge. But the oblit is a nice ace in your sleeve.
Not Online!!! wrote: Not really, overall i deem an 90 pts helbrute with missile and reaper cannon a better investment for the purge. But the oblit is a nice ace in your sleeve.
I'm not a fan of long-range shooty helbrutes... If I'm parking something to sit still and shoot across the board, Havocs seem to do the job better.
But I generally prefer a more ... mobile army. If I had a helbrute, it would have a scourge, and it would be running into peoples faces.
Not Online!!! wrote: Not really, overall i deem an 90 pts helbrute with missile and reaper cannon a better investment for the purge. But the oblit is a nice ace in your sleeve.
I'm not a fan of long-range shooty helbrutes... If I'm parking something to sit still and shoot across the board, Havocs seem to do the job better.
But I generally prefer a more ... mobile army. If I had a helbrute, it would have a scourge, and it would be running into peoples faces.
Blasphemy i say then, under two scourges per hellbrute!
Not Online!!! wrote: Not really, overall i deem an 90 pts helbrute with missile and reaper cannon a better investment for the purge. But the oblit is a nice ace in your sleeve.
I'm not a fan of long-range shooty helbrutes... If I'm parking something to sit still and shoot across the board, Havocs seem to do the job better.
But I generally prefer a more ... mobile army. If I had a helbrute, it would have a scourge, and it would be running into peoples faces.
Blasphemy i say then, under two scourges per hellbrute!
I would usually go for scourge + fist, or scourge + autocannon if I wanted to go hybrid.
Either way it works out cheaper than a single Obliterator, which is where my dilemma comes in. My conversion would actually probably work either way, a little tweaking on the sizing and it'd be helbrute sized instead of obliterator sized. I guess I just wanted to know which of the two is the most cost-effective and generally good at murdering these days.
3x oblits seem to have the edge mainly because you can spend stratagems on them, which you can't do (effectievly) on a single obliterator or a helbrute...?
Not Online!!! wrote: if you need a flexible unit or two the 1 drop oblits just beat the hellbrute.
If you don't need it and just want a good unit then the hellbrute beats the oblit often.
Also considering a Purge Flamestorm Predator. Helbrute might be more points efficient, but Flamestorm + 2x heavy flamers being fired into a melee combat just feels ... right. Still looking to see if I can do something similar but better with a contemptor/brute/other
I can pretty much pick 2, to go along with my Discordant/Maulerfiend/Daemon Prince (skullreaver) that my army currently consists of. I may also add in some barebones chainaxe/bolter terminators as my 'little guys'. Though Purge Warp Talons also appeals, as they would have rerolls on both hits and wounds.
Edit: Obviously the leviathan is twice the cost of the other things. In theory I could have one leviathan, or instead get multiple of the other things. But the Levi does work as a centrepiece maybe. Unsure.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lindsay40k wrote: That flamestorm combo sounds incredible! Don’t forget to throw in a combi-flamer
Damn. Remembered the reason why I didn't follow through on the Flamestorm Predator back when I first considered it. It's only 8" range. Might still be worth it but it makes me look back on the Contemptor and Leviathan (and even the normal Helbrute) again. They would get rerolling hits from the Purge, which might help offset the lack of flames.
lindsay40k wrote: That flamestorm combo sounds incredible! Don’t forget to throw in a combi-flamer
Damn. Remembered the reason why I didn't follow through on the Flamestorm Predator back when I first considered it. It's only 8" range. Might still be worth it but it makes me look back on the Contemptor and Leviathan (and even the normal Helbrute) again. They would get rerolling hits from the Purge, which might help offset the lack of flames.
That would require more moving parts, as you need to inflict a wound on a unit in the current turn to get the Trait active against it. Which, with a shooting attack, means Smite or similar - which means having a psyker in position to soften up the entangled target unit. Or, some complicated Nurgle shenanigans - and if there’s like a Gnarlmaw or Lord of Contagion in the brawl, it’s probably already going well for you.
I just wish the flamestorm predator was actually decent lol. I could take renegades and have some hellhounds I guess. Alternatively it's Tzeentch flamers and exalteds.
the preds still move 12 inches, right? just advance them up tbe table and pop smoke and theyll be flaming stuff turn 2 for sure. no worse than any other assault focused unit, just instead of charging its flaming.
Back to my list guestion few days back.. I struggled a lot, got maybe biggest defeat in my history, was shot off the table even on super dense table against admech. Their -1 to hit and amount of shooting and buffs.. I seemed to have the softest list from four of us.
Here's the admech list, what do we have against them. I got the first turn, but even with endless cacophony and reroll hit. Rolls of 1 my LC havocs and AC havocs only scraped some paint of onagers and some good targets had -2 to hit so no bother to shoot. In return fire I lost my brutes and havocs.. Dropping oblits and sorc finished one onager, but that was my input in the game. Even with there is more where they came from my 10man 2x RCC squad failed to kill a single ranger from a 5man unit. Rhat was bad dice rollong for sure, but can you blame the dice too much..
Xirax wrote: Back to my list guestion few days back.. I struggled a lot, got maybe biggest defeat in my history, was shot off the table even on super dense table against admech. Their -1 to hit and amount of shooting and buffs.. I seemed to have the softest list from four of us.
Here's the admech list, what do we have against them. I got the first turn, but even with endless cacophony and reroll hit. Rolls of 1 my LC havocs and AC havocs only scraped some paint of onagers and some good targets had -2 to hit so no bother to shoot. In return fire I lost my brutes and havocs.. Dropping oblits and sorc finished one onager, but that was my input in the game. Even with there is more where they came from my 10man 2x RCC squad failed to kill a single ranger from a 5man unit. Rhat was bad dice rollong for sure, but can you blame the dice too much..
Your list isn't optimized to play against -1 and -2 to hit opponents. If you enjoy fluffly lists than you have to accept these type of games. If you want to run this more competitively take a look at Blood of Kittens top CSM lists etc. that hit top 8 - what units are those lists running? Not helbrutes and not 10 man groups of csm to start... I enjoy havocs as a fun to use unit but I don't think I've seen them in competitive with significant success (too squishy as you probably noted)... If you want to run red corsairs you are prob best taking a minimum squad for the CP and than maxing your second squad of alpha (assuming you want to play straight CSM) to at least have -1 to hit and be slightly more robust... Otherwise consider soup as plaguebearers are pretty much amazing in every list for durability.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Maybe I'm missing it, but does Boots on the Ground still prevent Heldrakes from hiding Objectives?
I see the document adding the Aircraft keyword, but not to the Boots on the Ground rule.
Boots on the ground prevents any unit with the flyer battlefield role from holding objectives. And heldrakes don't get the aircraft keyword anyway, because only flyer units with a minimum move distance get that keyword.
So nothing has changed for the heldrake - it can't hold objectives.
This addition costs euros, but maybe I could match against in my meta..
can you drop the CSM? You dont have to go "Forgeworld" just your intrinsic build is bad... The contemps are at least relevant. The hell blades are decent depending on your meta... the csm and havocs as stated before... can you drop them?
What sort of meta would be one in which Hellblades are decent? I have one and I want a squadron but I’m struggling to see the strengths of the unit. +1 to hit some targets that often have an inherent -1 to be hit when you yourself will always have a -1 to hit from moving feels like such a crapshoot. Does the quantity of a bunch of them take on a quality of its own?
They got sort of popular when you could use them to block ground units from moving and stuff like that, but FAQ did away with it. They're still good vs Eldar bikes but of course with Ynnari changes that is less relevant, would still be good vs Eldar flyers and Custodes bikes I guess?
So, chaos knight codex is almost out. And previews abound on youtube. Anyone has any good ideas on how to use them with our CSM armies?
BTW, I tried out Norlitih crown with two whole squads of chaos cultists getting the 5++, and casting delightful agonies on one squad on top of that. They were extremely resilient and irritating to remove.
One of the new stuff in the chaos knight codex is you can spend cp on a strategem to give a 5++ invul to stuff within 6 inches. Not sure if cultists are ideal, maybe other stuff are better. But its worth mentioning.
The knight has to stay still. So its better for a knight that isn't going to be charging stuff. Probably Tyrant (Castellan) type or at least one with battle cannon.
The other question would be... if I still want to use my LOS model, would it be silly to go with an army list that has both a LOS and a chaos renegade knight? lol
Chaos Knights in a vacume are not as good as Imperial. Our warlord traits are worse. Our households consist of 2 options. We can actually hit the 3 datasheet limit.
BUT Chaos Knights when mixed into the rest of chaos vs Imperial Knights mixed into the rest of the imperial options.... oh boy does business pick up...
Lets start with the khorne relic of no invulnerable allowed. Take a gallent with that and then magnus with death hex.... as the enemy what are you going to shoot? Don't want magnus? Fine, arhiman can cover it and you still have 2 ways to shut down a units invunerable at the same time in different locations.
Or lets say you wana go even nastier. Tyrant (Castellen) sitting there with some havocs or deathguard or cultists giving them a 5++ save. 30 cultists all huddled around the tyrant protect it from smash captains, and the tyrant gives them a 5++ making sure they dont die to a swift breeze. Add slaanesh psycic to the mix so your cultists have a 6+/5++/5+++ save.... they wont go anywhere fast but that castle can unload down field no issues all game while sitting on a backfield objective.
Or look at needing a sniper. What chaos unit can target a chr? Well, our friendly tyrant holding that objective can with his Demonic Guidance System. Bye bye azreal. See ya Vindicare. Just having that as an option can help a lot.
Not to mention selecting that missile for the demonic surge ability. 1 shot can do 2-7 dmg wounding most chrs on 2's. Is it economic? Heck no. But its funny.
I hope I see a lot of chaos knights in the future.
lindsay40k wrote: What sort of meta would be one in which Hellblades are decent? I have one and I want a squadron but I’m struggling to see the strengths of the unit. +1 to hit some targets that often have an inherent -1 to be hit when you yourself will always have a -1 to hit from moving feels like such a crapshoot. Does the quantity of a bunch of them take on a quality of its own?
I think Don Hooson ran a Deathguard list with hellblades and deredeos at LVO this past year (going completely from memory I think he went 5-1) - and had some decent showings before - basically if you are expecting a ton of flyers (eldar etc.) for one reason or another... Its also completely tailored to ITC...
I might be crazy but I really fancy a terminator heavy list alpha legion with a knight and some hellbrutes and a sprinkling of havoc's ... Going with like 20 terminators in decent sized squads pumping out alot of dakka keep them more than 12 away and in cover I think that's quite decent. A knight and havoc's for anti vehicle and some hellbrutes to add a bit of firepower.
im start testing a list that here in Italy should perform fine, actually here meta is dominated by hordes and anti horde lists so im planning to play this...
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Slaanesh, Ultimate Confidence, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Slaanesh, Master of the Soulforges, Mecha-serpents
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Renegade Armigers [9 PL, 162pts] . Renegade Armiger: Heavy stubber, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver
Renegade Armigers [9 PL, 162pts] . Renegade Armiger: Heavy stubber, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver
Renegade Knight [25 PL, 465pts]: Heavy stubber
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
++ Total: [107 PL, 1,993pts] ++
no soft targets, anti infantry weapons nullified, heavy CaC and lot of anti horde fire (lot of flamer+gatlings) decent antitank, anything beside cultists have an Inv save, im going to test next week. I could play black legion instead red corsairs, so i get strong BL stratagem (deny obj control) but i lack the chance to move+advance+charge with LoD.
Rogerio134134 wrote: I might be crazy but I really fancy a terminator heavy list alpha legion with a knight and some hellbrutes and a sprinkling of havoc's ... Going with like 20 terminators in decent sized squads pumping out alot of dakka keep them more than 12 away and in cover I think that's quite decent. A knight and havoc's for anti vehicle and some hellbrutes to add a bit of firepower.
Looks loads fun to play and they'll be some good looking models on the table
I think if you keep the Terminators cheap with combi bolters and chain axes. And maybe consider changing helbrutes to contemptor or Daredeo dreads or even for two wardogs with autocannons this will play pretty well. Those termies will be tough to shift and you should pack a punch.
blackmage wrote: im start testing a list that here in Italy should perform fine, actually here meta is dominated by hordes and anti horde lists so im planning to play this...
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Slaanesh, Ultimate Confidence, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Slaanesh, Master of the Soulforges, Mecha-serpents
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Renegade Armigers [9 PL, 162pts] . Renegade Armiger: Heavy stubber, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver
Renegade Armigers [9 PL, 162pts] . Renegade Armiger: Heavy stubber, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver
Renegade Knight [25 PL, 465pts]: Heavy stubber
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
++ Total: [107 PL, 1,993pts] ++
no soft targets, anti infantry weapons nullified, heavy CaC and lot of anti horde fire (lot of flamer+gatlings) decent antitank, anything beside cultists have an Inv save, im going to test next week. I could play black legion instead red corsairs, so i get strong BL stratagem (deny obj control) but i lack the chance to move+advance+charge with LoD.
I seriously don't see the point in the baleflamer compared to the AC.
I also question the choice of venomcrawlers over maulerfiends or defilers.
Rogerio134134 wrote: I might be crazy but I really fancy a terminator heavy list alpha legion with a knight and some hellbrutes and a sprinkling of havoc's ... Going with like 20 terminators in decent sized squads pumping out alot of dakka keep them more than 12 away and in cover I think that's quite decent. A knight and havoc's for anti vehicle and some hellbrutes to add a bit of firepower.
Looks loads fun to play and they'll be some good looking models on the table
I think if you keep the Terminators cheap with combi bolters and chain axes. And maybe consider changing helbrutes to contemptor or Daredeo dreads or even for two wardogs with autocannons this will play pretty well. Those termies will be tough to shift and you should pack a punch.
Maybee 30 Cultists for some clutch cp?
Sorcerer can also help for the 5+ FNP on the termites.
Maybee invest in reaper chaincannons. Bolter chainaxe should be fine for the rest.
Yeah I've got some cultists sat in the box but just finishing up 5 alpha legion terminators and I just love them, so yeah think I'm going to get some more and go terminator heavy and a knight as I've said, just cool looking hard hitting units.
I seriously don't see the point in the baleflamer compared to the AC.
I also question the choice of venomcrawlers over maulerfiends or defilers.
you dont see? you can move+advance (average 17"+18" from baleflamer range and you autohit anything) and still fire baleflamer,you cant with autocannon, in that list almost anything beside Ik move and advance most of time , i can warptime the warlord into melee range (28"+6" average) and still shoot some baleflamer, autocannon has only 2 shots and you need to hit, autocannons aren't a threat.
LoD perform like melee units not like shooting units, you dont need 48" weapon for a model which want get into melee as soon as possible. Agree perhaps defilers/maulerfiends could be better, venomcrawlers are cheaper anyway so i can easily field all 3.
I seriously don't see the point in the baleflamer compared to the AC.
I also question the choice of venomcrawlers over maulerfiends or defilers.
you dont see? you can move+advance (average 17"+18" from baleflamer range and you autohit anything) and still fire baleflamer,you cant with autocannon, in that list almost anything beside Ik move and advance most of time , i can warptime the warlord into melee range (28"+6" average) and still shoot some baleflamer, autocannon has only 2 shots and you need to hit, autocannons aren't a threat.
LoD perform like melee units not like shooting units, you dont need 48" weapon for a model which want get into melee as soon as possible. Agree perhaps defilers/maulerfiends could be better, venomcrawlers are cheaper anyway so i can easily field all 3.
You don't think this list is too squishy for an IG gunline? Most of your units are clocking in sub T8 and with no negative to hit modifiers. I guess it is a meta call but IG and Tau look like would blow this off the table in 2 turns.
Your list looks to pack a punch but may be caught in the scenario similar to morty and magnus lists - really edging on going first. If you are playing CA too the low number of drops is not in your favor.
i think not... most Ig/tau list are set up against hordes, they cant blow out of table a list like this in 2 turns, i played a lot against Ig with my nurgle demons, they pack lot of punishment against infantry based lists lot less against veichles, castellans are less common here now and they was the real veichles nemesis , if a Ig/tau set up with heavy antitank they auto lost against hordes. Now an average Ig here play 9 mortars, couples of wiverns 3 tank commanders 60-70 guardsmen and usually pask on punisher then you can find couple of basilisks, not enough to handle this kind of list. If you face 3 Ik's+Ig can be thougher honestly saying.
About CA.... depend mostly what you face, if your opponent plays lot of light infantry (GSC, Tyr, Demons) you shred out all his infantry and they cant anyway control obiectives (tried a similar list against a Tyr and ended with him almost tabled), if you face heavy infantry he cant have lot of bodies and anyway the large amount of ap-2/-3 attacks pays back. A problem could be Pb's spam cause they are very resilient, in that case you need to take control as soon as possible to table center, Pb's itself struggle to remove T7 multi wound ta 2+/3+ models.
I seriously don't see the point in the baleflamer compared to the AC.
I also question the choice of venomcrawlers over maulerfiends or defilers.
you dont see? you can move+advance (average 17"+18" from baleflamer range and you autohit anything) and still fire baleflamer,you cant with autocannon, in that list almost anything beside Ik move and advance most of time , i can warptime the warlord into melee range (28"+6" average) and still shoot some baleflamer, autocannon has only 2 shots and you need to hit, autocannons aren't a threat.
LoD perform like melee units not like shooting units, you dont need 48" weapon for a model which want get into melee as soon as possible. Agree perhaps defilers/maulerfiends could be better, venomcrawlers are cheaper anyway so i can easily field all 3.
And the price is still an issue, the baleflamer is overpriced.
Why even bother at all with the dakka on the LoD when you throw them anyways in melee. It's just added tax imo.
So i'd go for the cheap AC instead.
can be right but that's a weapon with 0 use i spend 20 more points but im sure at least i will use it, anyway agree baleflamer is overpriced, when i need save points, baleflamers are the 1st thing i delete.
Was hoping for some chaos space marine advice. I'm returning to the game and building an Alpha Legion force. So far, this is what I have:
1 Terminator Lord
1 Master of Possession (also works as a sorcerer imo)
2 Greater Possessed
10 Guardsmen (cultists)
50 Chaos Space Marines (intention to build 10 of them into possessed using spawn bits)
5 Havocs (intention to build them into CSM with heavy weapons)
5 Terminators (unsure, likely going to magnetize arms)
5 Obliterators (love Oblits!)
I also have a venomcrawler that I plan to sell (not big on daemon engines, though I do like this one in particular and the LD, though I doubt I'll buy him). I have x30 Pink Horrors, x50 Blue/Brimstone Horrors, 3 Flamers, 1 Exalted Flamer, 3 Screamers, and a Herald, also ~50 Bloodletters on a variety of 20mm, 32mm, and 25mm square bases.
What's good, what's bad, what works, what doesn't? I played a little bit last summer, but I know some things have changed with all the updates, etc.
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Intoxicating Elixir, Mark of Slaanesh, Ultimate Confidence, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Slaanesh, Master of the Soulforges, Mecha-serpents
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
+ Heavy Support +
Maulerfiend [7 PL, 132pts]: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Slaanesh
Maulerfiend [7 PL, 132pts]: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Slaanesh
Renegade Knight [25 PL, 481pts]: Heavy stubber, Ironstorm Missile Pod
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
++ Total: [106 PL, -2CP, 1,999pts] ++
won 16-4 , had 1st turn
I keep play the Ik for a single reason, with the release of chaos Ik im pretty sure you will play in mechanized list like that, the firepower and distraction it offers let the rest of army pass at least 1 turn almost untouched, ork with 25 lootas aren't able to deal with all those fast targets and in meanwhile i scored 3 point each turn.
Kharneth wrote: Was hoping for some chaos space marine advice. I'm returning to the game and building an Alpha Legion force. So far, this is what I have:
1 Terminator Lord
1 Master of Possession (also works as a sorcerer imo)
2 Greater Possessed
10 Guardsmen (cultists)
50 Chaos Space Marines (intention to build 10 of them into possessed using spawn bits)
5 Havocs (intention to build them into CSM with heavy weapons)
5 Terminators (unsure, likely going to magnetize arms)
5 Obliterators (love Oblits!)
I also have a venomcrawler that I plan to sell (not big on daemon engines, though I do like this one in particular and the LD, though I doubt I'll buy him). I have x30 Pink Horrors, x50 Blue/Brimstone Horrors, 3 Flamers, 1 Exalted Flamer, 3 Screamers, and a Herald, also ~50 Bloodletters on a variety of 20mm, 32mm, and 25mm square bases.
What's good, what's bad, what works, what doesn't? I played a little bit last summer, but I know some things have changed with all the updates, etc.
Looks like a solid base. Terminator Lord lacks the mobility an aura character likes, but dropping in with plasma Terminators makes an impact.
A Heretac horde isn’t efficient, but five plus a Rotor Cannon makes for a viable MSU unit. Five plus an Autocannon is an ok backfield unit - AL are a good trait for such units. Cheap Cultists are ok space fillers, and Guardsmen will pass for them just fine. If your Havocs and CSM are the new plastics, you could build a bunch of Havoc squads, and again AL are a good trait for them.
Possessed are... adequate, *if* they can get into a fight with a suitable target, and not roll one attack. Sadly, they share the Primaris problem - D2 firepower isn’t rare. Delivery is tricky, especially in a mostly infantry force where a Rhino will catch most of the incoming anti-tank. Divesting of your Venomcrawler means they’re the only thing with GP synergy, too. ...I’ve been trying various Daemonkin builds, and a footslogging Nurgle or Slaanesh Possessed horde *might* be good. Haven’t got enough games in with them yet to say for sure. Relies on a bunch of moving parts: Codex Daemons auras, Warptime, Stratagems, endurance spell or Prayer - it’s probably a gimmick. Free move at the start of the game, though... it might work.
Oblits are good, but expensive. You could actually field what you have as a Devastation Battery, and have a trio squad forward deployed within range of enemies, and able to interrupt their first turn with shooting if you go second. MoP and LoC are decent company.
Your Horrors are a cracking Battalion. 30 Pinks, a couple of cheap Brimstone mobs, plus a couple of Heralds makes a solid CP farm and anti-horde firebase. Herald Warlord with Daemonspark can make Tzeentch Oblits nasty. Flamers are a very specialised counter to an infuriating Culexus Assassin but otherwise outperformed by Pinks; best kept in a sideboard, to be Summoned in as a trump card against very particular threats, with some Blue Horrors to hand to usually be used in their stead (you have to pay for splitting out of reinforcement points).
Bloodletters are great, and you’ve got the numbers that make them so. Two small squads to hide in buildings and deny deep strikes, and one massive horde jumping out of the Warp with a Banner of Blood to charge 3D6+1” and kill pretty much anything in the game. A Battalion can be finished with two out of Herald with Crimson Crown to supercharge their stabbing, Karanak for cheap & mobile Deny the Witch & scarecrowing, and a Daemon Prince with Skullreaver to fly at the biggest thing on the battlefield and blend it.
...this is starting to turn into a Daemons list, with special guests the Alpha Legion. Eh. You happen to have some great units
So I'm looking to add some terminators to my army collection. Not yet sure on the best way to field them.
'The Purge', 5x Bolter+Chainaxe - 145pts
Standard, basic, (relatively) cheap. Rerolls to hit built in, so don't need a Lord babysitter. Could have a sorcerer with them instead, and they don't need prescience as much so it frees them up for other buffs.
DG Blightlords, 2x Bolter + 4x BuboticAxe + 1x Flail + 2x Blight Launcher - 224pts
Expensive, but by far the hardest to kill with the 4++5+++. No hit rerolls but they're pretty potent in melee nonetheless.
TS Scarabs, 5x Inferno Bolters, 4x power swords - 189pts
Better bolters, and come with a pocket sorcerer already. No rerolls without powers or a HQ though. Basically vanilla termies with better bolters and a cheap sorcerer (which isn't a bad thing).
Not sure about other legions, I've been liking the Purge stuff and few of the other options really call out to me much. Flawless Host was a temptation, but its completely useless outside of melee so I don't think it'll come up anywhere near as often as the Purge one does. Does mean I lose out on Endless Cacophony though, but even though I'm putting out less shots the shots I'm making are more likely to hit... not sure if that works out much but still.
You can only take a BL gunner for every full five termies, 5 with 2 blight launchers isn’t allowed. Still a good unit, bloody hard to shift and pretty good at surviving D2 firepower.
I like the Purge ones. Self-sufficient termies is a bit unusual. Lets them be effective without babysitting or Strats.
Scarabs intrigue me. Inferno Bolters benefit from the Astartes double tap, right? I’m tempted to try them in a supreme command with Ahriman, TSDP, and unnamed Sorcerer. Definite contenders for endurance spells.
lindsay40k wrote: You can only take a BL gunner for every full five termies, 5 with 2 blight launchers isn’t allowed. Still a good unit, bloody hard to shift and pretty good at surviving D2 firepower.
I like the Purge ones. Self-sufficient termies is a bit unusual. Lets them be effective without babysitting or Strats.
Scarabs intrigue me. Inferno Bolters benefit from the Astartes double tap, right? I’m tempted to try them in a supreme command with Ahriman, TSDP, and unnamed Sorcerer. Definite contenders for endurance spells.
Sorry yes, that was meant to be 1 flail and 1 blight launcher. Had it set up wrong in battlescribe. 216 points then.
Far as I know, Inferno Bolters do work with discipline, so they're pretty not bad. I guess normal termies are for killing troops, while scarabs can also reliably take down elites as well?
Thousand Sons also intrigue me, and the models do look cool. However my army already consists of a lord discordant which I was considering running as Flawless Host for the huge numbers of attacks... Not sure I could fit Flawless and Purge and TSons in one list lol.
As you say, the Purge Termis are pretty much self-sufficient, and giving them a sorcerer is pure buffs. The Scarabs would need an Exalted or Prince to be near them, which is bad as you'd want your prince to be flying fast not crawling at 4" a turn. Prescience is an option, but it's also WC7 so it's less than guaranteed. On the plus side, you get AP-2 bolters and slightly better armour saves against weak weapons.
Hard to pick between them. Even if I took a TSons Prince, I could load him up with Manipulation or Weaver for himself and a Hereticus power for everyone else.
lindsay40k wrote: You can only take a BL gunner for every full five termies, 5 with 2 blight launchers isn’t allowed. Still a good unit, bloody hard to shift and pretty good at surviving D2 firepower.
I like the Purge ones. Self-sufficient termies is a bit unusual. Lets them be effective without babysitting or Strats.
Scarabs intrigue me. Inferno Bolters benefit from the Astartes double tap, right? I’m tempted to try them in a supreme command with Ahriman, TSDP, and unnamed Sorcerer. Definite contenders for endurance spells.
Sorry yes, that was meant to be 1 flail and 1 blight launcher. Had it set up wrong in battlescribe. 216 points then.
Far as I know, Inferno Bolters do work with discipline, so they're pretty not bad. I guess normal termies are for killing troops, while scarabs can also reliably take down elites as well?
Thousand Sons also intrigue me, and the models do look cool. However my army already consists of a lord discordant which I was considering running as Flawless Host for the huge numbers of attacks... Not sure I could fit Flawless and Purge and TSons in one list lol.
As you say, the Purge Termis are pretty much self-sufficient, and giving them a sorcerer is pure buffs. The Scarabs would need an Exalted or Prince to be near them, which is bad as you'd want your prince to be flying fast not crawling at 4" a turn. Prescience is an option, but it's also WC7 so it's less than guaranteed. On the plus side, you get AP-2 bolters and slightly better armour saves against weak weapons.
Hard to pick between them. Even if I took a TSons Prince, I could load him up with Manipulation or Weaver for himself and a Hereticus power for everyone else.
Scarabs are great, because of dark matter crystal and inferno bolters I think they are the best choice of the three. Start them on the board hidden (I generally take 10 with 2 missle racks), use dmc to put them in the thick of the action, preferably in cover. Kill 20-30 guardsmen/orks/firewarriors per turn. I take Ahriman, 2 winged Daemon Princes and 10 scarabs in a supreme command. It's a really solid detachment.
lindsay40k wrote: You can only take a BL gunner for every full five termies, 5 with 2 blight launchers isn’t allowed. Still a good unit, bloody hard to shift and pretty good at surviving D2 firepower.
I like the Purge ones. Self-sufficient termies is a bit unusual. Lets them be effective without babysitting or Strats.
Scarabs intrigue me. Inferno Bolters benefit from the Astartes double tap, right? I’m tempted to try them in a supreme command with Ahriman, TSDP, and unnamed Sorcerer. Definite contenders for endurance spells.
Sorry yes, that was meant to be 1 flail and 1 blight launcher. Had it set up wrong in battlescribe. 216 points then.
Far as I know, Inferno Bolters do work with discipline, so they're pretty not bad. I guess normal termies are for killing troops, while scarabs can also reliably take down elites as well?
Thousand Sons also intrigue me, and the models do look cool. However my army already consists of a lord discordant which I was considering running as Flawless Host for the huge numbers of attacks... Not sure I could fit Flawless and Purge and TSons in one list lol.
As you say, the Purge Termis are pretty much self-sufficient, and giving them a sorcerer is pure buffs. The Scarabs would need an Exalted or Prince to be near them, which is bad as you'd want your prince to be flying fast not crawling at 4" a turn. Prescience is an option, but it's also WC7 so it's less than guaranteed. On the plus side, you get AP-2 bolters and slightly better armour saves against weak weapons.
Hard to pick between them. Even if I took a TSons Prince, I could load him up with Manipulation or Weaver for himself and a Hereticus power for everyone else.
Scarabs are great, because of dark matter crystal and inferno bolters I think they are the best choice of the three. Start them on the board hidden (I generally take 10 with 2 missle racks), use dmc to put them in the thick of the action, preferably in cover. Kill 20-30 guardsmen/orks/firewarriors per turn. I take Ahriman, 2 winged Daemon Princes and 10 scarabs in a supreme command. It's a really solid detachment.
Isn't that a waste of the DMC? You can just do that for free anyway with their teleport. They both have the exact same rules and limitations. Only difference being the termies arrive turn 1 instead of turn 2, but it leaves the DMC to be usable on something else (or a different relic to be used). I guess one extra turn of termie shooting isn't too bad, but would pretty much require a big squad to make the most of it, which would then need lots of expensive buffs to make them worthwhile?
lindsay40k wrote: You can only take a BL gunner for every full five termies, 5 with 2 blight launchers isn’t allowed. Still a good unit, bloody hard to shift and pretty good at surviving D2 firepower.
I like the Purge ones. Self-sufficient termies is a bit unusual. Lets them be effective without babysitting or Strats.
Scarabs intrigue me. Inferno Bolters benefit from the Astartes double tap, right? I’m tempted to try them in a supreme command with Ahriman, TSDP, and unnamed Sorcerer. Definite contenders for endurance spells.
Sorry yes, that was meant to be 1 flail and 1 blight launcher. Had it set up wrong in battlescribe. 216 points then.
Far as I know, Inferno Bolters do work with discipline, so they're pretty not bad. I guess normal termies are for killing troops, while scarabs can also reliably take down elites as well?
Thousand Sons also intrigue me, and the models do look cool. However my army already consists of a lord discordant which I was considering running as Flawless Host for the huge numbers of attacks... Not sure I could fit Flawless and Purge and TSons in one list lol.
As you say, the Purge Termis are pretty much self-sufficient, and giving them a sorcerer is pure buffs. The Scarabs would need an Exalted or Prince to be near them, which is bad as you'd want your prince to be flying fast not crawling at 4" a turn. Prescience is an option, but it's also WC7 so it's less than guaranteed. On the plus side, you get AP-2 bolters and slightly better armour saves against weak weapons.
Hard to pick between them. Even if I took a TSons Prince, I could load him up with Manipulation or Weaver for himself and a Hereticus power for everyone else.
Scarabs are great, because of dark matter crystal and inferno bolters I think they are the best choice of the three. Start them on the board hidden (I generally take 10 with 2 missle racks), use dmc to put them in the thick of the action, preferably in cover. Kill 20-30 guardsmen/orks/firewarriors per turn. I take Ahriman, 2 winged Daemon Princes and 10 scarabs in a supreme command. It's a really solid detachment.
Isn't that a waste of the DMC? You can just do that for free anyway with their teleport. They both have the exact same rules and limitations. Only difference being the termies arrive turn 1 instead of turn 2, but it leaves the DMC to be usable on something else (or a different relic to be used). I guess one extra turn of termie shooting isn't too bad, but would pretty much require a big squad to make the most of it, which would then need lots of expensive buffs to make them worthwhile?
Not really, I find that the more problems you give your opponent simultaneously the better. If you're playing an army with lord discordants then you need clear screen. If you clear screen turn 1 then 1st turn charges can hit something worthwhile (not a difficult feat with warptime and master of the soulforges, advance and charge strat etc).
Plus this gives you board control straight away whilst removing your opponents board control. I generally try to hem in my opponent with plaguebearers and the scarabs make room for that to happen easily.
Not really, I find that the more problems you give your opponent simultaneously the better. If you're playing an army with lord discordants then you need clear screen. If you clear screen turn 1 then 1st turn charges can hit something worthwhile (not a difficult feat with warptime and master of the soulforges, advance and charge strat etc).
Plus this gives you board control straight away whilst removing your opponents board control. I generally try to hem in my opponent with plaguebearers and the scarabs make room for that to happen easily.
Interesting. What power do you give your sorcerer?
So in a meta where we can anticipate chaos knights becoming more mainstream - and with many lists looking to likely run either full melee (3x full knights) or with hybrid (1.5 melee 1.5 shooty), what are chaos best counters (ITC)?
The khorne daemon prince with reaver look appealing...
Mathhammering a double thermal cannon chaos knight doesn't look great (assuming a 4++)...
Oblits look cool but the redface check indicates they will die instantly the turn after they drop in and aren't really good for most other competitive matchups (see orks)...
Levits and deredeos seem ok based upon mathhammer but looking towards NOVA with the L's it looks like melee may have an advantage?
Asking for competitive options... ahriman and friends seems ok as only one chaos knight can get the 5++ to mortals trait but still woefully insufficient. What are some good competitive versatile options to counter melee knight rushdown variants as well as hybrid?
I can see the appeal of spending a Relic using Dark Matter Crystal on a unit that can teleport on its own steam. You’re paying for the DS to happen in T1, and for your opponent to be taken off guard. If the Termies are deployed at one end of the board, and your opponent deploys Autocannons there to counter them, you can then sod off to their other flank and have fun.
It’s a bit convoluted, and can broadcast itself if you check distances from your DMC-runner to your termies during deployment, but still, an interesting trick. Plus, you can decide not to use it, and then your DP has got the option to redeploy - either towards a target or away from a Skarbrand or similar tarpit of FLYers.
Buying models at the moment and just wanted to make sure I haven't missed anything. The Kytan is painted now (love that model) so is the only thing 100pc in the list atm.
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: 2. Indomitable, Autocannon, Mark of Slaanesh, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, Mark of Slaanesh, Master of the Soulforges, Mecha-serpents
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
lindsay40k wrote: I can see the appeal of spending a Relic using Dark Matter Crystal on a unit that can teleport on its own steam. You’re paying for the DS to happen in T1, and for your opponent to be taken off guard. If the Termies are deployed at one end of the board, and your opponent deploys Autocannons there to counter them, you can then sod off to their other flank and have fun.
It’s a bit convoluted, and can broadcast itself if you check distances from your DMC-runner to your termies during deployment, but still, an interesting trick. Plus, you can decide not to use it, and then your DP has got the option to redeploy - either towards a target or away from a Skarbrand or similar tarpit of FLYers.
I just found it gives you useful utility. Because both the DP with dmc and the scarabs can both move beforehand I don't check distances. Often I'll put them some distance away to throw people off.
Also if your opponent has no decent long range shooting I put them out in the open. Generally on the backfield objective to make them look like the worlds most expensive objective holders.
Oh and generally I'll put glamour on the sorcerer to make them more resilient.
DMC Scarabs do seem like a very handy little toolbox to have, though it still seems like it'd work better with a big unit than a small one.
Is there anything good to be said about Flawless Host terminators? I like a lot of the flawless host stuff, but the legion trait seems to be significantly worse than the purge one.
(Much like black legion I guess, which also seems to be really quite bad. Surprised they didn't improve it)
Edit:
Maybe a question to ask would be -
If you were going to field a squad of 5/10 terminators, which legion/god would you pick and how would you field them?
JP Chaos Lord, JP sorcerer with prescience, 10 slaanesh termis with Combiplasma. Deepstrike em, cast prescience, use votlw, unleash 20 overcharged plasma shots, hitting on 2s, reroll 1s, shoot again with endless cacophony, wounding anything on 2s or 3s. Legion whatever you want to, but no renegade chapter. Use stormbolters if plasma is to expensive.
p5freak wrote: JP Chaos Lord, JP sorcerer with prescience, 10 slaanesh termis with Combiplasma. Deepstrike em, cast prescience, use votlw, unleash 20 overcharged plasma shots, hitting on 2s, reroll 1s, shoot again with endless cacophony, wounding anything on 2s or 3s. Legion whatever you want to, but no renegade chapter. Use stormbolters if plasma is to expensive.
I considered this too, but isn't using a lord and a sorcerer overkill? For the huge investment in points, you get very little benefit.
For example, you could either have 5 termies + lord + sorcerer, or you could have 7 termies + sorcerer. You're better off with the 7 (as far as I can tell).
So, I have been playing Imperium for 10 years now. My armies are completed, and I want some changes: no more shooting or vehicles heavy armies. I want some SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONES !!! I'll be back from a deployement with plenty of money in 3 months and I wanted an assault heavy army I could buy, build and paint in one row, and that doesn't need hundreds of models.
However, I am really in an unknown world here. For a World Eater army, what are the base thing I should know ? I guess cultists, bikers, bezerkers in rhino ? I think the Chaos devastators are good, aren't they ? If you had some advices !
I considered this too, but isn't using a lord and a sorcerer overkill? For the huge investment in points, you get very little benefit.
For example, you could either have 5 termies + lord + sorcerer, or you could have 7 termies + sorcerer. You're better off with the 7 (as far as I can tell).
Its expensive, but it will kill everything. You could also run 10 purge terminators with combiplasma without sorcerer and without lord.
I considered this too, but isn't using a lord and a sorcerer overkill? For the huge investment in points, you get very little benefit.
For example, you could either have 5 termies + lord + sorcerer, or you could have 7 termies + sorcerer. You're better off with the 7 (as far as I can tell).
Its expensive, but it will kill everything. You could also run 10 purge terminators with combiplasma without sorcerer and without lord.
Yeh, Purge Termis are looking like the best option, even ahead of Scarabs.
I have to admit, the thought of running a unit of 10 Bringers of Despair, popping Pantheon, and giving them delightful agonies, miasma, and cacophonic choir... appeals. Could even give them fury of khorne, but that would be a lot of CP.
Purge Terminators make no sense imo. They can't use endless Cacophony or VotLW. Yes full rerolls is nice but you need 30 purge termies and something else to wound the target to compete with 10x alpha legion termies with jump pack sorcerer and lord and 3cp (both doing 35 damage to a knight).
And that is a 593 points difference, enough to get a min battalion of red corsair csms and a double butcher leviathan.
small_gods wrote: And that is a 593 points difference, enough to get a min battalion of red corsair csms and a double butcher leviathan.
interesting point. Endless does make for a big force multiplier. But then you need to spend a lot of points on trash in order to have enough CP to run it every turn.
Long as you have at least one good target for cacophony but preferably 2. Doesn't necessarily need to be terminators.
I've had success with all the above you mentioned with my favorites being scarabs probably followed by AL slaanesh with cblas. Their roles are pretty different so I don't really see them competing. It's more about what you plan to do with them. Cacophony cbplas are heavy hitters so you can skimp a bit on anti tank/elites.
Scarabs are anti horde/elites and can be assassins. What I like most is their effectiveness doesn't depend on your opponents screening. That is what really sets them apart from the plas version.
Blightlords and the nilla purge ones are bully units. With BL bringing more anti horde capability due to flails at much higher cost.
I'd pick what you need for your list or rather what you like and adjust elsewhere.
Chaos Lord on Juggernaut of Khorne [7 PL, 148pts]: 3. Unholy Fortitude, Bladed horn on Juggernaut of Khorne, Combi-flamer, Power axe, Talisman of Burning Blood, Warlord
Exalted Champion [5 PL, 91pts]: Bolt pistol, Mark of Khorne, Thunder hammer
Master of Executions [4 PL, 70pts]: Brass Collar of Borghaster, Mark of Khorne
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: Mark of Khorne
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: Mark of Khorne
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon
. Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 142pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainaxe
. 3x Chainaxe and bolt pistol: 3x Chainaxe
. 4x Chainsword and bolt pistol
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 142pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainaxe
. 3x Chainaxe and bolt pistol: 3x Chainaxe
. 4x Chainsword and bolt pistol
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 142pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainaxe
. 3x Chainaxe and bolt pistol: 3x Chainaxe
. 4x Chainsword and bolt pistol
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour [6 PL, 101pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne, Power sword, The Murder Sword
Chaos Lord on Juggernaut of Khorne [7 PL, 140pts]: 3. Unholy Fortitude, Bladed horn on Juggernaut of Khorne, Bolt pistol, Power axe, Talisman of Burning Blood, Warlord
Exalted Champion [5 PL, 91pts]: Bolt pistol, Brass Collar of Borghaster, Mark of Khorne, Thunder hammer
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: Mark of Khorne
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 141pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. 3x Chainaxe and bolt pistol: 3x Chainaxe
. 4x Chainsword and bolt pistol
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 141pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. 3x Chainaxe and bolt pistol: 3x Chainaxe
. 4x Chainsword and bolt pistol
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 141pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. 3x Chainaxe and bolt pistol: 3x Chainaxe
. 4x Chainsword and bolt pistol
+ Fast Attack +
Warp Talons [6 PL, 120pts]: Mark of Khorne
. 4x Warp Talon: 4x Lightning Claw (pair)
. Warp Talon Champion: Lightning Claw (pair)
Warp Talons [6 PL, 120pts]: Mark of Khorne
. 4x Warp Talon: 4x Lightning Claw (pair)
. Warp Talon Champion: Lightning Claw (pair)
+ Heavy Support +
Chaos Land Raider [16 PL, 299pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne, Twin heavy bolter, 2x Twin lascannon
Havocs [7 PL, 170pts]: Mark of Khorne
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Chainsword
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon
Havocs [7 PL, 170pts]: Mark of Khorne
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Chainsword
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon
+ Dedicated Transport +
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne
Has there been much comparison between Spineshiver Blade and Ghorisvex's Teeth?
I know the 'chainlord' builds take the teeth, along with a bunch of other buffs and characters etc etc. But on a standard lord, the Spineshiver seems like a pretty strong option.
In fact, Spineshiver + Thunder Hammer might be formidable, though it removes all his ranged options..
Just curious, as when I google for spineshiver on reddit 40k or on dakka, it never seems to get mentioned, which seemed unusual for what appears to be an above-average relic.
Buying models at the moment and just wanted to make sure I haven't missed anything. The Kytan is painted now (love that model) so is the only thing 100pc in the list atm.
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: 2. Indomitable, Autocannon, Mark of Slaanesh, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, Mark of Slaanesh, Master of the Soulforges, Mecha-serpents
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
I played against almost this exact list 2 weeks ago with my Deathwatch except he had abbadon and some forgefiends and didn't have a second lord discordant.
The guy I played beat me very narrowly on points but I basically wiped his whole army off the board except for abbadon who was hiding. I like the list but you have to really be aggressive with it and get into the enemies face. The guy I played came at me piecemeal and my hellblasters/repulsor/dreads absolutely tore them appart .
It's a scarry list to come up against but needs to be used correctly or it can get be quite easy to shoot up.
Niiru wrote: Has there been much comparison between Spineshiver Blade and Ghorisvex's Teeth?
I know the 'chainlord' builds take the teeth, along with a bunch of other buffs and characters etc etc. But on a standard lord, the Spineshiver seems like a pretty strong option.
In fact, Spineshiver + Thunder Hammer might be formidable, though it removes all his ranged options..
Just curious, as when I google for spineshiver on reddit 40k or on dakka, it never seems to get mentioned, which seemed unusual for what appears to be an above-average relic.
Well it is on energysword Basis. So 4 pts atleast.
It does less damage than either the teeth or the Hydra blade or murdersword.
Is tied to the bad bl trait.
It's not bad certainly and would make for a nice premium varaint blender Lord but that's it.
Niiru wrote: Has there been much comparison between Spineshiver Blade and Ghorisvex's Teeth?
I know the 'chainlord' builds take the teeth, along with a bunch of other buffs and characters etc etc. But on a standard lord, the Spineshiver seems like a pretty strong option.
In fact, Spineshiver + Thunder Hammer might be formidable, though it removes all his ranged options..
Just curious, as when I google for spineshiver on reddit 40k or on dakka, it never seems to get mentioned, which seemed unusual for what appears to be an above-average relic.
Well it is on energysword Basis. So 4 pts atleast.
It does less damage than either the teeth or the Hydra blade or murdersword.
Is tied to the bad bl trait.
It's not bad certainly and would make for a nice premium varaint blender Lord but that's it.
Ahh yes, I didn't notice the D1 vs the D2. I think I also saw it as "6 extra attacks" instead of D6. If it was a fixed 6 attacks it might well be more worth it.
In that case, on a fairly-standard Lord (some psychic buffs, but not the warlordtrait+multiple stratagems version), would you go with the Blade of the Hydra or Ghorisvex's Teeth?
Ignore the Legion Trait for now, as both bL and AL traits are fairly worthless on a melee lord anyway. AL is situationally better of course, but BL gets some other synergies like half-damage.
Without just as a provider of rerolls, i'd go with the blade, chances are you run a Gunline and for that it's the best cheap thing available..
On a jumppacklord ghoshvrex is better obviously, because it is literally the spitefull warlord trait on top of a good weapon.
That^s to say, both sides can be usefull.
However:
If you really intend to go blender lord, you won't have halfdamage, becuase spitefull flames is needed to propperly blend.
So overall the ghovshrex is better.
I was thinking jumppack, thunder hammer and hydra sword. Gives him options to fight hordes without the -1, or vehicles with extra damage. (I think this is legal).
For BL, it would be jumppack and ghorsvxcxx and I dunno, a bolter or something, as the ghors would always be the best option to use because of the mortal wound fishing.
I am hesitant to make this guy my warlord though, as he's extremely likely to die. Which means he won't have flames of spite. This is where I start wondering what works out best.
As I'm also planning to take a unit of terminators (I like them, don't care if theyre terrible lol). And the terminators need rerolls, either from being Purge or from having a lord nearby. might just mean having two lords (or an abaddon)
chain axe Chainsword it is then, would also put the List at 1000 pts.
My opponent surrendered 
Its still great though. You would get 4 shots on average. That's almost like having a squad of Lascannon Havocs already.
