p5freak wrote: If the chain lord does 20 damage, and 10 MW in addition, he can die, even if he is the warlord. His job is done.
If he manages to do all that in one turn, that would be great. But there would be no CP left for any other strats, no warlord, no buffs for anyone else. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, as you'd still have 1900 points of army left on the table.
Edit: Also you give away victory points, which isn't a totally minor thing#
Edit 2: Also, while it means you have one kamikaze chainlord, might it not be better to have a Flawless-Disco or Flawless-Prince, and just a standard thunderLord? Would seem to be much less CP intensive, more reliable, and still almost as powerful? (This is assuming you're already taking a prince and a lord, so the points are the same. And EVERYONE takes a prince.)
I've decided to start a World Eaters force and was looking for some advice to maximize its effectiveness. Other than Khorne Berzerkers, what units should I be looking to field? I'm thinking maybe fire support? Or perhaps demon engines. I'm also unsure how many berzerkers I ought to field.
Kharneth wrote: I've decided to start a World Eaters force and was looking for some advice to maximize its effectiveness. Other than Khorne Berzerkers, what units should I be looking to field? I'm thinking maybe fire support? Or perhaps demon engines. I'm also unsure how many berzerkers I ought to field.
All of them.
Buy a pile of berzerkers. Paint them. Put them on the table. Does it look like enough? No? Buy some more. Paint them.
Does it look like enough now? Yes?
You're wrong. Buy some more.
If you have enough points for cultists, then you haven't painted enough berzerkers.
Kharneth wrote: I've decided to start a World Eaters force and was looking for some advice to maximize its effectiveness. Other than Khorne Berzerkers, what units should I be looking to field? I'm thinking maybe fire support? Or perhaps demon engines. I'm also unsure how many berzerkers I ought to field.
All of them.
Buy a pile of berzerkers. Paint them. Put them on the table. Does it look like enough? No? Buy some more. Paint them.
Does it look like enough now? Yes?
You're wrong. Buy some more.
If you have enough points for cultists, then you haven't painted enough berzerkers.
More clear advice would be appreciated. For example, put them in rhinos? Take minimal characters? Units of 5 with power axes?
Thanks. It's hard to simply play a game and then buy more since I need an army in order to play a game. How many berzerkers am I looking to buy? I intend to buy them and use them. It makes no sense to just buy a single box and attempt to play with that.
Kharneth wrote: I've decided to start a World Eaters force and was looking for some advice to maximize its effectiveness. Other than Khorne Berzerkers, what units should I be looking to field? I'm thinking maybe fire support? Or perhaps demon engines. I'm also unsure how many berzerkers I ought to field.
All of them.
Buy a pile of berzerkers. Paint them. Put them on the table. Does it look like enough? No? Buy some more. Paint them.
Does it look like enough now? Yes?
You're wrong. Buy some more.
If you have enough points for cultists, then you haven't painted enough berzerkers.
More clear advice would be appreciated. For example, put them in rhinos? Take minimal characters? Units of 5 with power axes?
Thanks. It's hard to simply play a game and then buy more since I need an army in order to play a game. How many berzerkers am I looking to buy? I intend to buy them and use them. It makes no sense to just buy a single box and attempt to play with that.
Sorry, I was giving advice from a more... chaotic point of view. Not necessarily all that helpful, I admit.
You'll need a party bus for those berzerkers. They're offensive troops, they aren't too good footslogging or defending. Other stuff can bubblewrap your backline cheaper. Rhinos are the cheap option. One rhino with 9 zerkers and a Champion would be a pretty decent setup, as the wound rerolls will be helpful. But you'll always want to consider target saturation, cos that rhino will get blown up fast. Two rhinos, each with 9 zerkers, one with a Champion and one with an Apostle, might be a fun option. Lots of damage and buffs to go around. Pretty fluffy too. Probably not worth putting a lord or sorcerer in the rhino, as they can transport themselves, so if you're not using champions or apostles then just fill the rhinos with 'zerkers. Termites and Karybdis Claws are also decent options, and they keep you off the table for a turn which might help with survival. More expensive too though, and they're forgeworld so it depends how you feel about those.
But, if forgeworld is ok, and if you're going all out on the Khorne Party Bus... I'd always recommend a Spartan. Fill it with a full squad of 20 'Zerkers, a champion and an apostle. Maybe even throw a Lord in there, why not. Mark it Nurgle, and chase up with a jetpack sorcerer casting Miasma on it, giving you -2 to hit with smoke launchers. Next turn, you hit with 8 lascannons (which can still shoot even when in melee, and the Spartan can eat people), and then attack with ... 240 melee attacks. Give or take.
I mean it's the definition of overkill, as well as having all your skulls in one basket. But.... you're khorne. So.
Kharneth wrote: I've decided to start a World Eaters force and was looking for some advice to maximize its effectiveness. Other than Khorne Berzerkers, what units should I be looking to field? I'm thinking maybe fire support? Or perhaps demon engines. I'm also unsure how many berzerkers I ought to field.
All of them.
Buy a pile of berzerkers. Paint them. Put them on the table. Does it look like enough? No? Buy some more. Paint them.
Does it look like enough now? Yes?
You're wrong. Buy some more.
If you have enough points for cultists, then you haven't painted enough berzerkers.
More clear advice would be appreciated. For example, put them in rhinos? Take minimal characters? Units of 5 with power axes?
Thanks. It's hard to simply play a game and then buy more since I need an army in order to play a game. How many berzerkers am I looking to buy? I intend to buy them and use them. It makes no sense to just buy a single box and attempt to play with that.
Sorry, I was giving advice from a more... chaotic point of view. Not necessarily all that helpful, I admit.
You'll need a party bus for those berzerkers. Rhinos are the cheap option. One rhino with 9 zerkers and a Champion would be a pretty decent setup, as the wound rerolls will be helpful. But you'll always want to consider target saturation, cos that rhino will get blown up fast. Two rhinos, each with 9 zerkers, one with a Champion and one with an Apostle, might be a fun option. Lots of damage and buffs to go around. Pretty fluffy too. Termites and Karybdis Claws are also decent options, and they keep you off the table for a turn which might help with survival. More expensive too though, and they're forgeworld so it depends how you feel about those.
But, if forgeworld is ok, and if you're going all out on the Khorne Party Bus... I'd always recommend a Spartan. Fill it with a full squad of 20 'Zerkers, a champion and an apostle. Maybe even throw a Lord in there, why not. Mark it Nurgle, and chase up with a jetpack sorcerer casting Miasma on it, giving you -2 to hit with smoke launchers. Next turn, you hit with 8 lascannons (which can still shoot even when in melee, and the Spartan can eat people), and then attack with ... 240 melee attacks. Give or take.
I mean it's the definition of overkill, as well as having all your skulls in one basket. But.... you're khorne. So.
I don't understand your advice. I'm not looking for poor advice "because I'm khorne," because I'm not khorne. I'm looking for advice for a functional and effective world eaters force. I use to use the apostle but I'm thinking against it now since it's only buff now must be cast to be used and can't be cast when it is needed most. I also found the character auras to be more restrictive than beneficial, but of course I will need characters.
I've toyed with the idea of putting 3x8 berzerkers in a spartan plus a champion, but never got around to actually buying one and I'm not entirely sure it's a good idea. My friend advised 5 units in rhinos backed by 3 butcher cannon decimators. Frankly, I like the idea of an ocean of berzerkers and would love it if I could fit 8x8 units of berzerkers.
What about a battalion with 6 units of 8 berzerkers with chainaxes and a power axe lead by an exalted champion and chaos lord, then a patrol detachment with 2 units of 8 berzerkers with chain axes and a power axe lead by another exalted champion, all in rhinos. I'd make them twin battalions but I am short the points for another hero.
Berserkers are great, but they have a few serious problems, the biggest being they tend to do their job too well. I run mine as world eaters because Karn and they are troops..... no other reason needed. Other chapter tactics would be better on them however (red corsairs / generic renegade being a prime example) because they dont need that extra attack that world eaters gives them, they need better mobility.
How to run them its generally agreed give them a chainsword and a chainaxe. This 1pt upgrade loses your pistol (you were not shooting pistols as beserkers anyways) but lets you put out a lot of nasty cc attacks (Thats 27 axe attacks and 10 chainsword attacks per 5 guy squad when you charge! Remember beserkers get to be nominated twice, but the legion trait only gives them 1 additonal attack per model in the fight phase when they charge, the bonus doesnt stack.... but who cares your 5 guys just did 37 attacks for 85 pts! And thats not counting death to the false emporer!).
So how do you get your blenders into cc? 3 options.
The first is Forgeworld which i can not help you with, i don't have any first hand experience with forge world chaos stuff as our local shop doesnt play forgeworld much.
The next is rhinos/land raiders. Between those 2 i go with rhinos, a 72 pt rhino with an 85 pt beserker squad is going to be 157 pts of serious distraction that your opponent will want to kill immediately if they have ever fought against beserkers before. If not they will learn. And the rhino can pull double duty after dropping the cargo off by soaking up overwatch on a charge.
The final is pick a different legion / on foot. It may sound harsh but switching to a different legion loses you taking them as troops (kinda sucks) and you lose 5 attacks with the chain axes (big deal) but you gain so much more. Beserkers that can advance and charge can move much faster than expected. Or how about beserkers getting a free 9" movement t1 and are -1 to hit outside 12" (Alpha legion, how I love you.... your cheap relic, your amazing legion and warlord trait... your the whole package my dear!)? Dont forget casting warp time on them as well as another boost.
I don't understand your advice. I'm not looking for poor advice "because I'm khorne," because I'm not khorne. I'm looking for advice for a functional and effective world eaters force. I use to use the apostle but I'm thinking against it now since it's only buff now must be cast to be used and can't be cast when it is needed most. I also found the character auras to be more restrictive than beneficial, but of course I will need characters.
I've toyed with the idea of putting 3x8 berzerkers in a spartan plus a champion, but never got around to actually buying one and I'm not entirely sure it's a good idea. My friend advised 5 units in rhinos backed by 3 butcher cannon decimators. Frankly, I like the idea of an ocean of berzerkers and would love it if I could fit 8x8 units of berzerkers.
What about a battalion with 6 units of 8 berzerkers with chainaxes and a power axe lead by an exalted champion and chaos lord, then a patrol detachment with 2 units of 8 berzerkers with chain axes and a power axe lead by another exalted champion, all in rhinos. I'd make them twin battalions but I am short the points for another hero.
Sorry, I tend to take a more light hearted view of this game, but i'll admit not everyone feels the same way.
Back to the actual advice - The spartan idea is a fun one, but I agree it's not necessarily the best. It's an expensive basket, and it can be pretty easily killed even though it's extremely powerful. Knights and such are an annoyance, but unfortunately they are played a lot.
5 units in rhinos is a good one, I wasn't sure quite how many you were considering getting which is why I only mentioned having two. You'd want a minimum of 2 or 3 rhinos of berzerkers, but 5 of them would be great. A lot of them would end up getting into the fight.
I'd actually recommend butcher cannon Deredeos instead, they're more point efficient as a gun platform, and you're not using anything that will help with the 'daemon' part of the decimator anyway. If you can swing the points for a HQ, then fielding a Lord + 3x Deredeos in an Alpha Legion spearhead is pretty much the best option you can get. But if you can't afford extra detachments, they'll still do a lot of work for you.
Edit: Also, if you're taking 5 units of 'zerkers, you might as well up it to 6 and make two Battallions out of it. Lots of CP for fight-twice stratagems.
If you want some success with Berserkers, you need to put them in Rhinos because they are fragile and easily killed. And you also need some other stuff that can clear away chaff. If not, against any list that has chaff, you will be charging your zerkers into the chaff, and then having them shot off the board the following turn.
If your zerkers are the chaff clearers, then you have to disembark them and send them out in waves instead of all at once.
Eldenfirefly wrote: If you want some success with Berserkers, you need to put them in Rhinos because they are fragile and easily killed. And you also need some other stuff that can clear away chaff. If not, against any list that has chaff, you will be charging your zerkers into the chaff, and then having them shot off the board the following turn.
If your zerkers are the chaff clearers, then you have to disembark them and send them out in waves instead of all at once.
This is a very good point. 'zerkers are -too good- at killing things. They will charge something, murder it, and then be left in the open with their thumbs up their khorne-holes while everyone around them blows them away. Fitting two MSU 5-man squads into a rhino is probably better for chaff clearing. No morale issues, and enough attacks to do the damage needed. And you can take on two enemies in a turn. I think this is what generally is advised. Depends on your enemy though I guess.
Niiru wrote: This is a very good point. 'zerkers are -too good- at killing things. They will charge something, murder it, and then be left in the open with their thumbs up their khorne-holes while everyone around them blows them away. Fitting two MSU 5-man squads into a rhino is probably better for chaff clearing. No morale issues, and enough attacks to do the damage needed. And you can take on two enemies in a turn. I think this is what generally is advised. Depends on your enemy though I guess.
Yes, thats their fate, kill something and die afterwards. They are glass cannons. I suggest watching some videos about advanced tactics in the charge and fight phase. They are in this playlist.
If he manages to do all that in one turn, that would be great. But there would be no CP left for any other strats, no warlord, no buffs for anyone else. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, as you'd still have 1900 points of army left on the table.
A chainlord isnt really CP hungry. Its one for votlw and maybe three more for fight again. You can use a chaos lord on juggernaut of khorne. This makes him more resilient, and give you more attacks, but you cant play votlw on him.
Buying models at the moment and just wanted to make sure I haven't missed anything. The Kytan is painted now (love that model) so is the only thing 100pc in the list atm.
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: 2. Indomitable, Autocannon, Mark of Slaanesh, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, Mark of Slaanesh, Master of the Soulforges, Mecha-serpents
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
I played against almost this exact list 2 weeks ago with my Deathwatch except he had abbadon and some forgefiends and didn't have a second lord discordant.
The guy I played beat me very narrowly on points but I basically wiped his whole army off the board except for abbadon who was hiding. I like the list but you have to really be aggressive with it and get into the enemies face. The guy I played came at me piecemeal and my hellblasters/repulsor/dreads absolutely tore them appart .
It's a scarry list to come up against but needs to be used correctly or it can get be quite easy to shoot up.
Thanks for the feedback. My plan is absolutely to run up the table and engage as soon as possible in cc.
I'm thinking of trying to get more bikes into that unit as a t1 screen clear.
My general idea is to have a lot of very scary and fast cc killing machines running up the board, with all of that I'm confident of t1/2 charges.
Kharneth wrote: I've decided to start a World Eaters force and was looking for some advice to maximize its effectiveness. Other than Khorne Berzerkers, what units should I be looking to field? I'm thinking maybe fire support? Or perhaps demon engines. I'm also unsure how many berzerkers I ought to field.
First question: are you planning pure WE, or are some Daemon allies an option? Karanak and some Flesh Hounds bring DTW coverage, and a Herald with Crimson Crown makes Obliterators interesting (use VotLW and you’ll get extra shots on 5+ to Wound). All of them give charge rerolls to Daemon Engines, making a Maulerfiend & Defiler jamboree (which has access to +2 movement via Warpsmith or Disco) fun. Khorne Daemon Princes are a LOT better taken from the Daemons Codex than the CSM one - harder hitting, more auras, and access to a knight-killer Relic.
General recommendations:
Helbrutes are an okay source of firepower. The regular Codex ones will die easily, but they’re priced fairly accordingly - and when they are being shot, your Rhinos are not, and vice versa. The FW ones bring more reliable firepower and endurance. Tanks are generally not great, with the possible exception of the FW Scorpius. Spartan and Lord of Skulls are workable, especially now Dark Apostles can give them endurance and accuracy buffs. Khârn and the previously mentioned Herald can also give them uncommon buffs.
Dark Apostles can’t be played as they used to be - riding in a rhino with an exalted champion in another rhino. Their Combat buffs need to be activated before the movement phase, so they need boots on the ground. Chaos Lords or Khârn are your party bus accuracy guarantors.
There’s some frightening Overwatch out there, and Warp Talons are back to ‘really good at countering it’ status. Three squads of five in an Outriders with a jump Lord (thunder hammer is my preference) can form a Raptorial Wing, giving them +2 to charge when they arrive. Very interesting synergy with a Crimson Crown Herald who’s just Summoned an Altar of Skulls. Even if there’s not dangerous Overwatch to deny, it’s still a hard enough hitting arrangement to be worth playtesting with some proxies and an agreeable opponent.
Havocs are plain good in general. You don’t need a Legion Trait synergy to leverage four heavy weapons that can sneak around cover and hijack the first shooting phase. Small Heretac squads with a chaincannon are ok midfielders who can contribute to horde clearance and CP farming. Cultists are in an awkward spot, having been price hiked, lost Legion traits, and downscaled, whilst competing with Heretac cannon squads and WE Zerks. A big unit for early screening then Tide of Traitors is still nice to have and worth considering - especially if you’re considering anchoring your line with an invuln aura off a DA or Noctilith.
Don’t forget your Legion Stratagem when Magnus rolls a 14 to Smite you. 2CP have a 75% chance to deny anything
I don't understand your advice. I'm not looking for poor advice "because I'm khorne," because I'm not khorne. I'm looking for advice for a functional and effective world eaters force. I use to use the apostle but I'm thinking against it now since it's only buff now must be cast to be used and can't be cast when it is needed most. I also found the character auras to be more restrictive than beneficial, but of course I will need characters.
I've toyed with the idea of putting 3x8 berzerkers in a spartan plus a champion, but never got around to actually buying one and I'm not entirely sure it's a good idea. My friend advised 5 units in rhinos backed by 3 butcher cannon decimators. Frankly, I like the idea of an ocean of berzerkers and would love it if I could fit 8x8 units of berzerkers.
What about a battalion with 6 units of 8 berzerkers with chainaxes and a power axe lead by an exalted champion and chaos lord, then a patrol detachment with 2 units of 8 berzerkers with chain axes and a power axe lead by another exalted champion, all in rhinos. I'd make them twin battalions but I am short the points for another hero.
Sorry, I tend to take a more light hearted view of this game, but i'll admit not everyone feels the same way.
Back to the actual advice - The spartan idea is a fun one, but I agree it's not necessarily the best. It's an expensive basket, and it can be pretty easily killed even though it's extremely powerful. Knights and such are an annoyance, but unfortunately they are played a lot.
5 units in rhinos is a good one, I wasn't sure quite how many you were considering getting which is why I only mentioned having two. You'd want a minimum of 2 or 3 rhinos of berzerkers, but 5 of them would be great. A lot of them would end up getting into the fight.
I'd actually recommend butcher cannon Deredeos instead, they're more point efficient as a gun platform, and you're not using anything that will help with the 'daemon' part of the decimator anyway. If you can swing the points for a HQ, then fielding a Lord + 3x Deredeos in an Alpha Legion spearhead is pretty much the best option you can get. But if you can't afford extra detachments, they'll still do a lot of work for you.
Edit: Also, if you're taking 5 units of 'zerkers, you might as well up it to 6 and make two Battallions out of it. Lots of CP for fight-twice stratagems.
You said to literally take as many as possible and the minimum troops for a battalion is 3 so I'll definitely be taking 3. So was that real advice or was it just bs exaggerating about the use of berzerkers? I know that they're good, but copy pasting an army of them is unlikely going to be successful. Berzerkers can't deal with everything. Are there any chaos deredeos? The only ones I see look like they're space marines.
If you want some success with Berserkers, you need to put them in Rhinos because they are fragile and easily killed. And you also need some other stuff that can clear away chaff. If not, against any list that has chaff, you will be charging your zerkers into the chaff, and then having them shot off the board the following turn.
If your zerkers are the chaff clearers, then you have to disembark them and send them out in waves instead of all at once.
5-man units of what? Berzerkers or CSM? I do agree that something to clear chaff is important and I'd also need something to take out flyers with.
Anything is on the table, but last time I played about a year ago I found my berzerkers out performing everything else (demon prince, bloodletters, blood slaughterer, etc) so I'm thinking the only other things I include will be fire support. World Eaters and Demons of Khorne only, no other legions, no other marks, absolutely no sorcerers.
It's 1254 points for 5x8 Berzerkers in rhinos, a lord, and an exalted champion, which leaves me roughly 700 points for fire support or more berzerkers. My options seem to be dreadnoughts of various kinds, is that right?
I don't understand your advice. I'm not looking for poor advice "because I'm khorne," because I'm not khorne. I'm looking for advice for a functional and effective world eaters force. I use to use the apostle but I'm thinking against it now since it's only buff now must be cast to be used and can't be cast when it is needed most. I also found the character auras to be more restrictive than beneficial, but of course I will need characters.
I've toyed with the idea of putting 3x8 berzerkers in a spartan plus a champion, but never got around to actually buying one and I'm not entirely sure it's a good idea. My friend advised 5 units in rhinos backed by 3 butcher cannon decimators. Frankly, I like the idea of an ocean of berzerkers and would love it if I could fit 8x8 units of berzerkers.
What about a battalion with 6 units of 8 berzerkers with chainaxes and a power axe lead by an exalted champion and chaos lord, then a patrol detachment with 2 units of 8 berzerkers with chain axes and a power axe lead by another exalted champion, all in rhinos. I'd make them twin battalions but I am short the points for another hero.
Sorry, I tend to take a more light hearted view of this game, but i'll admit not everyone feels the same way.
Back to the actual advice - The spartan idea is a fun one, but I agree it's not necessarily the best. It's an expensive basket, and it can be pretty easily killed even though it's extremely powerful. Knights and such are an annoyance, but unfortunately they are played a lot.
5 units in rhinos is a good one, I wasn't sure quite how many you were considering getting which is why I only mentioned having two. You'd want a minimum of 2 or 3 rhinos of berzerkers, but 5 of them would be great. A lot of them would end up getting into the fight.
I'd actually recommend butcher cannon Deredeos instead, they're more point efficient as a gun platform, and you're not using anything that will help with the 'daemon' part of the decimator anyway. If you can swing the points for a HQ, then fielding a Lord + 3x Deredeos in an Alpha Legion spearhead is pretty much the best option you can get. But if you can't afford extra detachments, they'll still do a lot of work for you.
Edit: Also, if you're taking 5 units of 'zerkers, you might as well up it to 6 and make two Battallions out of it. Lots of CP for fight-twice stratagems.
You said to literally take as many as possible and the minimum troops for a battalion is 3 so I'll definitely be taking 3. So was that real advice or was it just bs exaggerating about the use of berzerkers? I know that they're good, but copy pasting an army of them is unlikely going to be successful. Berzerkers can't deal with everything. Are there any chaos deredeos? The only ones I see look like they're space marines.
If you want some success with Berserkers, you need to put them in Rhinos because they are fragile and easily killed. And you also need some other stuff that can clear away chaff. If not, against any list that has chaff, you will be charging your zerkers into the chaff, and then having them shot off the board the following turn.
If your zerkers are the chaff clearers, then you have to disembark them and send them out in waves instead of all at once.
5-man units of what? Berzerkers or CSM? I do agree that something to clear chaff is important and I'd also need something to take out flyers with.
Anything is on the table, but last time I played about a year ago I found my berzerkers out performing everything else (demon prince, bloodletters, blood slaughterer, etc) so I'm thinking the only other things I include will be fire support. World Eaters and Demons of Khorne only, no other legions, no other marks, absolutely no sorcerers.
It's 1254 points for 5x8 Berzerkers in rhinos, a lord, and an exalted champion, which leaves me roughly 700 points for fire support or more berzerkers. My options seem to be dreadnoughts of various kinds, is that right?
700 pts is a lot of options. If your looking to stay mono codex and want fire support i would suggest Kharn, 2 forgefiends with gattlings, and a defiler or venom crawler. Have kharn stand back with the forgefiends giving them reroll all failed hits, sit on a back objective, and earn vp. No one will want to charge 2 forgefiends with kharn babysitting. Defiler can use deamonforged strat to reroll failed hits and wounds. And if these guys are not putting enough pressure onto your opponent may i suggest adding a chaos deamon in? Put a single blood throne with the crown artifact next to the forgefiends and laugh as those 6's to hit generate additional hits and 6's to wound generate additional hits. Its magical. Played something like that at a tournament a few months ago, went 2 and 1 (with my only loss coming at the hands of a tyranid player whos hive tyrant survived karn in cc.... tyrant had 1 wound left and needed to make 3 6's to survive and pulled it off. Cant counter dice rolls sometimes lol). The 2 forgefiends i had were wrecking face in all 3 games.
I don't have much of an opinion regarding which codex, the only stipulation is that it must fit within World Eaters or Khorne and must not be against the spirit of a Khorne-themed army. None of that magic stuff...
I really like the idea of Kharn babysitting a shooting force, giving them rerolls to hit, and not murdering my own guys. I feel like that's unfair to Kharn, but perhaps people will still attempt to charge my gunline anyway? Idk.
So, this is what I'm thinking:
Khorne Lord - Power Axe, Brass Collar (can't find a good artifact)
Khorne Champion - Power Axe
Khorne Champion - Power Axe
5x8 Berzerkers - Chainaxes/swords, Power Axe
x5 Rhinos
x3 Deredeo Dreadnoughts - Butchercannons & Heavy Bolters
I was thinking of splitting them into a battalion and a spearhead. I have 130 points left, which is enough for Kharn, but I fear that my tournaments don't allow special characters so I'd like an alternative as well.
I figured the Deredeos can serve the triple purpose of 1) clearing chaff, 2) gunning down flyers, and 3) popping transports. They are indeed far superior to decimators as they have +1 BS, twin heavy bolters, and an anti-flyer special rule all for merely +37 points. And, I imagine I can shoot the heavy bolters at chaff while I shoot the autocannons at vehicles, unless I can only divide model-by-model and not gun-by-gun.
Does this look promising? I know I'll want some berzerkers so I'm not going to regret buying them, but I worry the deredeos will be a waste of $$$ and I always get very worried when purchasing forge world stuff... but I do love autocannons.
Kharn's rerolls is a bit redundant since the dreads hit on a 2+, but he would allow them to retain their rerolls while moving. Instead, I think a Chaos Lord will do fine though I actually think the Lord would do better with the Berzerkers and leave the dreadnoughts to fend for themselves. I also gave my rhinos combi-bolters to help clear chaff.
27 spare points, 40 points of combi-flamers, and 63 points for the greater havoc launchers gives me some room to play with. I have 130 spare points before adding those additions, which would've been Kharn but I'm not sold on his uses. Is there anything else that would be better for those 130 points?
I feel like a havoc launcher and combi bolter for 8 points is better than a combi flamer for the rhinos, it gives you 4 bolter shots at 24", and D6 shots at 48". For 130 points you can get a havoc squad with two ML, HB and AC. Or a chaos predator. Or two units of 5 CSM for holding objective markers.
Lord allows rerolling 1s and Kharn allows all rerolls, but the guys hit on a 2+ so it's effectively the same. Kharn is overpriced for such a job, though he certainly poses a much greater threat for chargers.
I feel like a havoc launcher and combi bolter for 8 points is better than a combi flamer for the rhinos, it gives you 4 bolter shots at 24", and D6 shots at 48". For 130 points you can get a havoc squad with two ML, HB and AC. Or a chaos predator. Or two units of 5 CSM for holding objective markers.
These rhinos will be advancing and therefore will be unable to shoot bolters or heavy weapons.
I could take a havoc squad with 2 chaincannons and 2 heavy bolters, or be really fluffy and just take 4 heavy bolters, but I kinda feel like greater havoc launchers added the deredeos would be better and I don't really need more dakka I don't think. I already have 24 s8 autocannon shots and 18 heavy bolter shots all hitting on 2+.
I could take 2x5 CSM barebones, but that's so boring! Wouldn't cultists be better anyway? More bodies. If I drop the combi-flamers, I can afford a single unit of marines or cultists while keeping the greater havoc launchers, but I should be able to secure any home-team objectives with the deredeos, no? If anyone is threatening to charge me, I've got plenty of berzerkers.
p5freak wrote: What about your rhinos after they delivered the zerkers ? A blob of cultists to screen your deredeos isn't a bad idea.
What about them? There are a lot of things that they can do, but sitting around as an 80 pt turret isn't really the best thing they can do. I don't expect them all to survive the race across the board, but you're talking about the last 2 or 3 turns, depending on when the charging happens. They'll be used to charge units to soak up overwatch for the zerkers or to tie up shooty units that they can access. Havoc launchers might be better guns on paper, but I'd need the shots to happen while the berzerkers are still inside and as they're charging out. After the zerkers leave the rhinos, the chaff needs to already be dead and the havoc launchers won't be able to serve that purpose.
I think dropping the combi-flamers, keeping the greater havoc launchers, and adding a 10-man unit of cultists is the way to go, leaving me with 17 points left. Then, I guess, I could add 3 cultists to that unit... or leave them at 10 since I don't know how I'd get another 3 guardsmen.
I feel like a chaos Lord providing rerolls to the butcher cannons wouldn't be as useful as rerolls for a couple berzerker squads, but I'll have to experiment. I don't think I can build a complete screen with it 10-13 cultists anyhow.
Here is the thing, other than fluff reasons (which if thats why your taking world eaters enough said, ignore the rest of this post) if your not taking Kharn then whats the real point of making the faction world eaters? 5 beserkers lose 5 attacks on the charge if not world eaters (37 vs 32) but are much more survivable or faster in other legions. The only other thing of note is they are troops vs elites, which can be cool do not get me wrong but is it worth the cp vs other advantages?
Besides kharn is one nasty dude. Until the lord discordant came out he was really one of the few ways to make deamon engines reliable. Now i can see kharn and 3 venom crawlers being super nasty moving up the field. Add a herald of khorne in there with the crown and you have a nasty mobile castle.
I don't like Kharn and I don't like using named characters. Also, Kharn confers no benefit to my list that a chaos Lord doesn't. I like world eaters and I like that it allows berzerkers as troops.
What other legion traits are more worth taking? Advancing and charging would only be of benefit sometimes, usually I am close enough that I don't need to advance and the majority of the distance is inside the rhino anyway.
f the chain lord does 20 damage, and 10 MW in addition, he can die, even if he is the warlord. His job is done.
a BL lord? 20 damage? you mean elixr+thunder hammer+ ghovshrex+flame of spite? I prefer a Dp with ultimate confidence+elixir+diabolic strenght, 9 str 10 attacks at 6 dealing 3(4) extra attacks, no mortals but tons of attacks. I guess the main point is Lord is pretty more cheap.
No, I mean a khorne BL lord with two chainswords, ghorisvex teeth, flames of spite, votlw, and soultearer portent. 7 attacks, he hits on 2s, rerolling 1s, any wound roll of 4+ are 2MW in addition to normal damage. And 3cp to fight again. I prefer MW because there is no sv against it. Your 20 attacks, or whatever, can all be saved. My 10MW can't be saved, unless there is an ignore wound ability, which is rare.
p5freak wrote: No, I mean a khorne BL lord with two chainswords, ghorisvex teeth, flames of spite, votlw, and soultearer portent. 7 attacks, he hits on 2s, rerolling 1s, any wound roll of 4+ are 2MW in addition to normal damage. And 3cp to fight again. I prefer MW because there is no sv against it. Your 20 attacks, or whatever, can all be saved. My 10MW can't be saved, unless there is an ignore wound ability, which is rare.
So you casually blow 5 CP?
and more considering you might want another warlord and etc.
p5freak wrote: No, I mean a khorne BL lord with two chainswords, ghorisvex teeth, flames of spite, votlw, and soultearer portent. 7 attacks, he hits on 2s, rerolling 1s, any wound roll of 4+ are 2MW in addition to normal damage. And 3cp to fight again. I prefer MW because there is no sv against it. Your 20 attacks, or whatever, can all be saved. My 10MW can't be saved, unless there is an ignore wound ability, which is rare.
So you casually blow 5 CP?
and more considering you might want another warlord and etc.
Seems a bit off overpooling of ressources.
With respect, do realize that build is taken at the highest levels of competitive play for chaos. Being able to nuke a target is what this and the smash captains are made for.
That build? depending on side show, costs alone 7 cp.
That is literally a whole battery in cost additional to a bl jumppack Lord.
So in other words it is just another anti knight slingshot.
p5freak wrote: No, I mean a khorne BL lord with two chainswords, ghorisvex teeth, flames of spite, votlw, and soultearer portent. 7 attacks, he hits on 2s, rerolling 1s, any wound roll of 4+ are 2MW in addition to normal damage. And 3cp to fight again. I prefer MW because there is no sv against it. Your 20 attacks, or whatever, can all be saved. My 10MW can't be saved, unless there is an ignore wound ability, which is rare.
So you casually blow 5 CP?
and more considering you might want another warlord and etc.
Seems a bit off overpooling of ressources.
Its 4cp, and they aren't casually blown. They are spend for 20 damage and 10MW.
so you need 100 extra point for apostole (plus dark disciples) for that combo? If you dont deliver enough mortal wounds with an ap0 weapon like chainsword (5 of your 7 attacks) your damage output is almost 0, I looked at many ITC/ETC lists no one have units like those two anyway, couple of vindicare (common in many imperial lists here) and your combo wont last just to mention one, i would like to see where all those high competive list feauturing slam lord+apostole are, im not sarcastic i just like to see, im curious.
Personally, I also tend to shy away from using named characters in friendly games... but I'd much prefer to field Abaddon than a fully cheesed out smash captain / chain lord.
On another topic - Legion Trait choices for a Discordant / Prince. My main legion... might be Purge, or it might be Black Legion, I'm honestly not too sure yet. But what I do know, is that it's pointless to run my Disco as either of them, as I gain nothing from it.
Flawless Host is the obvious choice for the few bonus attacks they'll get, but I was wondering if there are other good options. Corsairs for advance and charge seems promising. Also considered the old faithful Alphas... It'll be a waste once the Disco gets into combat, but it might mean he survives a turn or two longer from the long-range anti-tank weapons. And if they move into his 12" bubble, then he can eat them next turn.
Niiru wrote: Personally, I also tend to shy away from using named characters in friendly games... but I'd much prefer to field Abaddon than a fully cheesed out smash captain / chain lord.
On another topic - Legion Trait choices for a Discordant / Prince. My main legion... might be Purge, or it might be Black Legion, I'm honestly not too sure yet. But what I do know, is that it's pointless to run my Disco as either of them, as I gain nothing from it.
Flawless Host is the obvious choice for the few bonus attacks they'll get, but I was wondering if there are other good options. Corsairs for advance and charge seems promising. Also considered the old faithful Alphas... It'll be a waste once the Disco gets into combat, but it might mean he survives a turn or two longer from the long-range anti-tank weapons. And if they move into his 12" bubble, then he can eat them next turn.
Isn't the BL halve damage warlord trait pretty much the best for the Disco?
Niiru wrote: Personally, I also tend to shy away from using named characters in friendly games... but I'd much prefer to field Abaddon than a fully cheesed out smash captain / chain lord.
On another topic - Legion Trait choices for a Discordant / Prince. My main legion... might be Purge, or it might be Black Legion, I'm honestly not too sure yet. But what I do know, is that it's pointless to run my Disco as either of them, as I gain nothing from it.
Flawless Host is the obvious choice for the few bonus attacks they'll get, but I was wondering if there are other good options. Corsairs for advance and charge seems promising. Also considered the old faithful Alphas... It'll be a waste once the Disco gets into combat, but it might mean he survives a turn or two longer from the long-range anti-tank weapons. And if they move into his 12" bubble, then he can eat them next turn.
Isn't the BL halve damage warlord trait pretty much the best for the Disco?
Maybe, that or the Flawless Host one. But my Disco isn't my warlord. I'm talking about Legion Traits, not warlord traits.
Not Online!!! wrote:That build? depending on side show, costs alone 7 cp.
That is literally a whole battery in cost additional to a bl jumppack Lord.
So in other words it is just another anti knight slingshot.
What ?? The (JP) chain lord costs 4CP, 1 for votlw, and 3 to fight again.
blackmage wrote:so you need 100 extra point for apostole (plus dark disciples) for that combo? If you dont deliver enough mortal wounds with an ap0 weapon like chainsword (5 of your 7 attacks) your damage output is almost 0, I looked at many ITC/ETC lists no one have units like those two anyway, couple of vindicare (common in many imperial lists here) and your combo wont last just to mention one, i would like to see where all those high competive list feauturing slam lord+apostole are, im not sarcastic i just like to see, im curious.
Ghorisvex teeth is AP-2, i can choose whatever melee weapon i have for my attacks. I make 6 attacks with ghorisvex teeth and 1 bonus attack with the chainsword.
You guys really should read the rules before posting
I don't understand your advice. I'm not looking for poor advice "because I'm khorne," because I'm not khorne. I'm looking for advice for a functional and effective world eaters force. I use to use the apostle but I'm thinking against it now since it's only buff now must be cast to be used and can't be cast when it is needed most. I also found the character auras to be more restrictive than beneficial, but of course I will need characters.
I've toyed with the idea of putting 3x8 berzerkers in a spartan plus a champion, but never got around to actually buying one and I'm not entirely sure it's a good idea. My friend advised 5 units in rhinos backed by 3 butcher cannon decimators. Frankly, I like the idea of an ocean of berzerkers and would love it if I could fit 8x8 units of berzerkers.
What about a battalion with 6 units of 8 berzerkers with chainaxes and a power axe lead by an exalted champion and chaos lord, then a patrol detachment with 2 units of 8 berzerkers with chain axes and a power axe lead by another exalted champion, all in rhinos. I'd make them twin battalions but I am short the points for another hero.
Sorry, I tend to take a more light hearted view of this game, but i'll admit not everyone feels the same way.
Back to the actual advice - The spartan idea is a fun one, but I agree it's not necessarily the best. It's an expensive basket, and it can be pretty easily killed even though it's extremely powerful. Knights and such are an annoyance, but unfortunately they are played a lot.
5 units in rhinos is a good one, I wasn't sure quite how many you were considering getting which is why I only mentioned having two. You'd want a minimum of 2 or 3 rhinos of berzerkers, but 5 of them would be great. A lot of them would end up getting into the fight.
I'd actually recommend butcher cannon Deredeos instead, they're more point efficient as a gun platform, and you're not using anything that will help with the 'daemon' part of the decimator anyway. If you can swing the points for a HQ, then fielding a Lord + 3x Deredeos in an Alpha Legion spearhead is pretty much the best option you can get. But if you can't afford extra detachments, they'll still do a lot of work for you.
Edit: Also, if you're taking 5 units of 'zerkers, you might as well up it to 6 and make two Battallions out of it. Lots of CP for fight-twice stratagems.
You said to literally take as many as possible and the minimum troops for a battalion is 3 so I'll definitely be taking 3. So was that real advice or was it just bs exaggerating about the use of berzerkers? I know that they're good, but copy pasting an army of them is unlikely going to be successful. Berzerkers can't deal with everything. Are there any chaos deredeos? The only ones I see look like they're space marines.
If you want some success with Berserkers, you need to put them in Rhinos because they are fragile and easily killed. And you also need some other stuff that can clear away chaff. If not, against any list that has chaff, you will be charging your zerkers into the chaff, and then having them shot off the board the following turn.
If your zerkers are the chaff clearers, then you have to disembark them and send them out in waves instead of all at once.
5-man units of what? Berzerkers or CSM? I do agree that something to clear chaff is important and I'd also need something to take out flyers with.
Anything is on the table, but last time I played about a year ago I found my berzerkers out performing everything else (demon prince, bloodletters, blood slaughterer, etc) so I'm thinking the only other things I include will be fire support. World Eaters and Demons of Khorne only, no other legions, no other marks, absolutely no sorcerers.
It's 1254 points for 5x8 Berzerkers in rhinos, a lord, and an exalted champion, which leaves me roughly 700 points for fire support or more berzerkers. My options seem to be dreadnoughts of various kinds, is that right?
700 pts is a lot of options. If your looking to stay mono codex and want fire support i would suggest Kharn, 2 forgefiends with gattlings, and a defiler or venom crawler. Have kharn stand back with the forgefiends giving them reroll all failed hits, sit on a back objective, and earn vp. No one will want to charge 2 forgefiends with kharn babysitting. Defiler can use deamonforged strat to reroll failed hits and wounds. And if these guys are not putting enough pressure onto your opponent may i suggest adding a chaos deamon in? Put a single blood throne with the crown artifact next to the forgefiends and laugh as those 6's to hit generate additional hits and 6's to wound generate additional hits. Its magical. Played something like that at a tournament a few months ago, went 2 and 1 (with my only loss coming at the hands of a tyranid player whos hive tyrant survived karn in cc.... tyrant had 1 wound left and needed to make 3 6's to survive and pulled it off. Cant counter dice rolls sometimes lol). The 2 forgefiends i had were wrecking face in all 3 games.
Sorry can you clarify? What am I missing. The crown is giving you extra hits on wound rolls of 6 but what gives extra hits on hit rolls of 6?
Not Online!!! wrote:That build? depending on side show, costs alone 7 cp.
That is literally a whole battery in cost additional to a bl jumppack Lord.
So in other words it is just another anti knight slingshot.
What ?? The (JP) chain lord costs 4CP, 1 for votlw, and 3 to fight again.
blackmage wrote:so you need 100 extra point for apostole (plus dark disciples) for that combo? If you dont deliver enough mortal wounds with an ap0 weapon like chainsword (5 of your 7 attacks) your damage output is almost 0, I looked at many ITC/ETC lists no one have units like those two anyway, couple of vindicare (common in many imperial lists here) and your combo wont last just to mention one, i would like to see where all those high competive list feauturing slam lord+apostole are, im not sarcastic i just like to see, im curious.
Ghorisvex teeth is AP-2, i can choose whatever melee weapon i have for my attacks. I make 6 attacks with ghorisvex teeth and 1 bonus attack with the chainsword.
You guys really should read the rules before posting
remain the fact NO competitive list ( i looked at about 75 chaos lists ETC/ITC) play that combo, i wont say what happen against an Ik if you dont kill it in 1st wave of attacks, the stratagem is used at END of fight phase, so 1st Ik stomps your Lord (only 4 wound T4) and only if Lord survive, can attack again. Again if you face an imperium list with 2 vindicare bye bye combo (ETC lists feature 2 vindicares when they play assassin). Anyway im sure in moderate competitive level it's a very strong option but at level i play i cant ever think to spend 203pts like that,
@you right was my mistake i forgot about the basic 4+2 attacks with the ghorisvex
Not Online!!! wrote:That build? depending on side show, costs alone 7 cp.
That is literally a whole battery in cost additional to a bl jumppack Lord.
So in other words it is just another anti knight slingshot.
What ?? The (JP) chain lord costs 4CP, 1 for votlw, and 3 to fight again.
blackmage wrote:so you need 100 extra point for apostole (plus dark disciples) for that combo? If you dont deliver enough mortal wounds with an ap0 weapon like chainsword (5 of your 7 attacks) your damage output is almost 0, I looked at many ITC/ETC lists no one have units like those two anyway, couple of vindicare (common in many imperial lists here) and your combo wont last just to mention one, i would like to see where all those high competive list feauturing slam lord+apostole are, im not sarcastic i just like to see, im curious.
Ghorisvex teeth is AP-2, i can choose whatever melee weapon i have for my attacks. I make 6 attacks with ghorisvex teeth and 1 bonus attack with the chainsword.
You guys really should read the rules before posting
remain the fact NO competitive list ( i looked at about 75 chaos lists ETC/ITC) play that combo, i wont say what happen against an Ik if you dont kill it in 1st wave of attacks, the stratagem is used at END of fight phase, so 1st Ik stomps your Lord (only 4 wound T4) and only if Lord survive, can attack again. Again if you face an imperium list with 2 vindicare bye bye combo (ETC lists feature 2 vindicares when they play assassin). Anyway im sure in moderate competitive level it's a very strong option but at level i play i cant ever think to spend 203pts like that,
@you right was my mistake i forgot about the basic 4+2 attacks with the ghorisvex
Gorvex's teeth is ap -3 and a chaos lord has 5 wounds....
But i think it's more of a theory build rather than a really useful one. I've run it without the dark apostle and it'll kill a knight in one turn if he doesn't get stomped on halfway through (depends how lucky you get with your 4++) . It's also a pretty decent way to chop through things like bullgrins and custodes also. But really I'd take a flawless host daemon prince or skullreaver prince over him anyday.
yes mistyped, 5 wounds, in any case make him WL and you gift slay the warlord every match, and if you play maelstrom that can cost you 2-3 points depend by cards your opponent have, assasinate+slay warlord+kingslayer and can cost you 5 Vp. I repeat never seen it played in competitive, some believe they can replicate slam captain but is not the same at all, i wont say is a bad unit at all, just dont see how it can make the cut with a flawless host Dp with elixir and diabolic strenght ultimate confidence more durable tons of attacks (9) and each 6 3 or 4 more, ap-2 only but it can clear almost anything.
Anyway this is a list im going to playtest, still not sure about just 12 marines (bit too light screen)
blackmage wrote: yes mistyped, 5 wounds, in any case make him WL and you gift slay the warlord every match, and if you play maelstrom that can cost you 2-3 points depend by cards your opponent have, assasinate+slay warlord+kingslayer and can cost you 5 Vp. I repeat never seen it played in competitive, some believe they can replicate slam captain but is not the same at all, i wont say is a bad unit at all, just dont see how it can make the cut with a flawless host Dp with elixir and diabolic strenght ultimate confidence more durable tons of attacks (9) and each 6 3 or 4 more, ap-2 only but it can clear almost anything.
Anyway this is a list im going to playtest, still not sure about just 12 marines (bit too light screen)
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, Mark of Khorne
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Sorcerer [6 PL, 100pts]: Combi-bolter, Death Hex, Force stave, Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
++ Total: [109 PL, 1,990pts] ++
I'm in the same boat, not sure if I should stick with usual 60 plaguebearers or use some red cosairs. I've been using red cosairs, Huron, 3 full knights and only 2 LDs with no venomcrawlers. But a similar sort of list. It's done well so far but not faced a mele horde yet like gsc or daemons.
After that I'm going try 60 plaguebearers and 20 bloodletters with 3 knights and see if I miss the cp and lord discordants.
Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 501pts]: Heavy stubber, Infernal Household, Ironstorm Missile Pod
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
War Dogs [9 PL, 172pts] . War Dog: Heavy stubber, Infernal Household, Two War Dog autocannons
War Dogs [9 PL, 172pts] . War Dog: Heavy stubber, Infernal Household, Two War Dog autocannons
he faced IG with 3 tank commander 2 company commanders 60 guardsmen 9 mortars 3 sentinels bullygins and a castellan IK at maelstrom, he tied 10-10 (bad maelstrom card and castellan who wreak havocs)
eldar with reapers 3 flyers waves with troops shining spears mission with 3 obj one in each deply zone and one at center won 16-4
GSC mission where obj moves around the table, i dont know the whole list but sure abberrants patriarch banner and lot of bodies, won 14-6 (plaguebearers and Ik made the difference here)
he finished 3rd, first time he played that list.
yes if i had 3 Ik i would try a list like that, the thing LoD gives is lot of melee power also against hordes, 12 attacks each and you can deliver 24 with korne stratagem, 48 attacks at 2+ isn't a joke, Ik's clean screens and give some extra melee power, with Wow of carnage not hard it gets 18 stomp attacks.
I tend tot think Flawless host, Corsairs/Alpha Legion and even World Eaters are all pretty viable for discos. Probably in about that order. Black legion honorable mention if you're running just one and are willing to make him your warlord.
A flawless host disco lord with intoxicating elixir, ultimate confidence, prescience, and diabolic strength is insane. He has 14 attacks, hitting on 2s, and each 4+ are three additional attacks, thats 21 on average Play daemonforge to re-roll any failed hit and wound rolls, which will be 1s to hit, and 1s and 2s to wound.
I don't think Lord Discos are best when they is one single one souped up to the nines for offense. He's just gonna die. I think the only solo-lord which works well is perhaps a BL one.
You really need 2 or 3 to make them work well and I would spread out relics. Soulforge pack, one gets the elixir, one gets tendrils, one gets the +2 move trait. No obvious target to shoot.
yes is the configuration im planning to play 3 LD in a supreme command elixir, artefact tendrils and +2 mov, red corsair so you can move advance and charge, one of them can be sling shot with warptime for an average threat range of 32"+charge.
Written up a little list which I'm roughly going for its along the lines of...
Alpha legion
Lord with terminator armour and combi plasma and PF
Sorcerer with jump pack mark of nurgle
Dark apostle
2 X 10 cultists
6 csm with Autocannon and plasma
Hellbrute twin las and ML
10 terminators with combi bolters and chainaxe , 2 X Autocannon 2 X powerfists
Havoc's 2 ml 2 lascannons
2 oblits
Rhino
And the rest will be spent on a knight or 2!!
Plan is to drop the terminators and oblits in with the termie lord to cause havoc while the rest sits back and shoots, probably have a shooty knight and a fighty one if I can fit that in 600 points, if not I'll just drop some stuff to fit them in.
Is Alpha Legion still an ok choice for terminators? Mine will end up being fairly brawly mid-short range, but I assume it's still handy to have the -1 to hit against enemies that are a little further away.
What's people's thoughts on Khorne Vs Slaanesh for close combat?
I'm very old-school in feeling that Berzerkers are the CC beasts, and certainly they do seem good, but with the Endless Cacophony strat,being much better than anything World Eaters get for shooting, and Noise Marines having an amped up DTTFE and fighting again when they die, they don't seem bad.
Add in the saucy Flawless Host trait and it seems like a decent prospect. Even other units seem like they'd gain more from Slaanesh than Khorne when looking at marks and banners.
craggy wrote: What's people's thoughts on Khorne Vs Slaanesh for close combat?
I'm very old-school in feeling that Berzerkers are the CC beasts, and certainly they do seem good, but with the Endless Cacophony strat,being much better than anything World Eaters get for shooting, and Noise Marines having an amped up DTTFE and fighting again when they die, they don't seem bad.
Add in the saucy Flawless Host trait and it seems like a decent prospect. Even other units seem like they'd gain more from Slaanesh than Khorne when looking at marks and banners.
Flawless Host has no access to VotLW which imo is required for noise marines.
Also if combat really is the goal, red Corsairs top both due to actually getting Stuck in. Sadly.
Is Alpha Legion still an ok choice for terminators? Mine will end up being fairly brawly mid-short range, but I assume it's still handy to have the -1 to hit against enemies that are a little further away.
Otherwise I'm thinking Purge.
If you intend to deploy the termites from the start it would actually be a great choice.
Purge is nice for that come in and destory something hard
Yeah, in a brawl, World Eaters beat Red Corsairs beat Flawless Host beat Emperor’s Children, and if it’s a loyalist-punching contest then FH beat RC, but WE are also hopelessly outgunned by the others and RC actually get to where the important fighting is
With WE Trait being nerfed, there’s little reason other than fluff and the DTW strat (which can be a lifesaver if you have a Tzeentch-rich meta!) to choose them over a polytheist Legion/Chapter
...on a related note: I like Daemonkin gimmick lists, and I reckon there’s fun to be had with WE Possessed, Soultearer Portent, VotLW, and Crimson Crown
...it’s not going to be as good as a simple Bletterbomb, is it
...on a related note: I like Daemonkin gimmick lists, and I reckon there’s fun to be had with WE Possessed, Soultearer Portent, VotLW, and Crimson Crown
...it’s not going to be as good as a simple Bletterbomb, is it
So Long either Brazen beasts or WE don't allow psykers so Long i feel the lists won't work as intended.
edit: have we actually ever seen the paintscheme of the brazen beasts?
...on a related note: I like Daemonkin gimmick lists, and I reckon there’s fun to be had with WE Possessed, Soultearer Portent, VotLW, and Crimson Crown
...it’s not going to be as good as a simple Bletterbomb, is it
So Long either Brazen beasts or WE don't allow psykers so Long i feel the lists won't work as intended.
edit: have we actually ever seen the paintscheme of the brazen beasts?
...on a related note: I like Daemonkin gimmick lists, and I reckon there’s fun to be had with WE Possessed, Soultearer Portent, VotLW, and Crimson Crown
...it’s not going to be as good as a simple Bletterbomb, is it
So Long either Brazen beasts or WE don't allow psykers so Long i feel the lists won't work as intended.
edit: have we actually ever seen the paintscheme of the brazen beasts?
Yeah, they look rather cool:
Isn't that a World eater?
Sans the we Symbol?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Altough nice sheme it is and they Symbol in actually decent.
...on a related note: I like Daemonkin gimmick lists, and I reckon there’s fun to be had with WE Possessed, Soultearer Portent, VotLW, and Crimson Crown
...it’s not going to be as good as a simple Bletterbomb, is it
So Long either Brazen beasts or WE don't allow psykers so Long i feel the lists won't work as intended.
edit: have we actually ever seen the paintscheme of the brazen beasts?
Yeah, they look rather cool:
Isn't that a World eater?
Sans the we Symbol?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Altough nice sheme it is and they Symbol in actually decent.
That's what I was thinking. The only thing that distinguishes it from a World Eater is the gray/metallic color present on the chest and backpack, but I'm not so sure those parts can't be made gray on a World Eater.
Edit: If you google search Brazen Beast, other images make it clear that there are two reds, a darker red (khorne red) on the body and a lighter red (mephiston red) on the pauldrons.
...on a related note: I like Daemonkin gimmick lists, and I reckon there’s fun to be had with WE Possessed, Soultearer Portent, VotLW, and Crimson Crown
...it’s not going to be as good as a simple Bletterbomb, is it
So Long either Brazen beasts or WE don't allow psykers so Long i feel the lists won't work as intended.
edit: have we actually ever seen the paintscheme of the brazen beasts?
Yeah, they look rather cool:
Isn't that a World eater?
Sans the we Symbol?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Altough nice sheme it is and they Symbol in actually decent.
That's what I was thinking. The only thing that distinguishes it from a World Eater is the gray/metallic color present on the chest and backpack, but I'm not so sure those parts can't be made gray on a World Eater.
Edit: If you google search Brazen Beast, other images make it clear that there are two reds, a darker red (khorne red) on the body and a lighter red (mephiston red) on the pauldrons.
As far as I know the "darker red" is often described as maroon coloured. Which I prefer actually, since there are no other "brownish" Marines around
...on a related note: I like Daemonkin gimmick lists, and I reckon there’s fun to be had with WE Possessed, Soultearer Portent, VotLW, and Crimson Crown
...it’s not going to be as good as a simple Bletterbomb, is it
So Long either Brazen beasts or WE don't allow psykers so Long i feel the lists won't work as intended.
Not going so gimmicky as to leave the sorcerer on the shelf
Got a question about Terminators, specifically within a World Eaters context.
Are terminators generally effective and/or considered competitive? I've heard of the combi-plasma terminators with a lord, but what about the other options? Does anyone use them with heavy weapons? Does anyone use them with power fists or lightning claws? And does anyone mix and match their equipment upgrades or do people generally leave them identical? They're very expensive and I worry about over-equipping them.
Kharneth wrote: Got a question about Terminators, specifically within a World Eaters context.
Are terminators generally effective and/or considered competitive? I've heard of the combi-plasma terminators with a lord, but what about the other options? Does anyone use them with heavy weapons? Does anyone use them with power fists or lightning claws? And does anyone mix and match their equipment upgrades or do people generally leave them identical? They're very expensive and I worry about over-equipping them.
The cheapo loadout is decent.
Problem is, you do kinda need the doubling of dakka, ergo Slaanesh is kinda enforced.
The reaper is a decent choice, worth it's points and a utility weapon.
Melee is too expensive, beyond the chain axe imo.
Although if you go we with them that might even work.
Kharneth wrote: Got a question about Terminators, specifically within a World Eaters context.
Are terminators generally effective and/or considered competitive? I've heard of the combi-plasma terminators with a lord, but what about the other options? Does anyone use them with heavy weapons? Does anyone use them with power fists or lightning claws? And does anyone mix and match their equipment upgrades or do people generally leave them identical? They're very expensive and I worry about over-equipping them.
The cheapo loadout is decent.
Problem is, you do kinda need the doubling of dakka, ergo Slaanesh is kinda enforced.
The reaper is a decent choice, worth it's points and a utility weapon.
Melee is too expensive, beyond the chain axe imo.
Although if you go we with them that might even work.
I struggle to even want to use the terminators with chainaxes seeing as they'd be so much worse than berzerkers. It's annoying how the new terminators don't even give you enough chainaxes to equip them all like that anyway.
Kharneth wrote: Got a question about Terminators, specifically within a World Eaters context.
Are terminators generally effective and/or considered competitive? I've heard of the combi-plasma terminators with a lord, but what about the other options? Does anyone use them with heavy weapons? Does anyone use them with power fists or lightning claws? And does anyone mix and match their equipment upgrades or do people generally leave them identical? They're very expensive and I worry about over-equipping them.
The cheapo loadout is decent.
Problem is, you do kinda need the doubling of dakka, ergo Slaanesh is kinda enforced.
The reaper is a decent choice, worth it's points and a utility weapon.
Melee is too expensive, beyond the chain axe imo.
Although if you go we with them that might even work.
I struggle to even want to use the terminators with chainaxes seeing as they'd be so much worse than berzerkers. It's annoying how the new terminators don't even give you enough chainaxes to equip them all like that anyway.
well you get alot of enegry fist parts, which look like elongated armor plates to defend hands.
Add in a bunch of Chainswords from the new box and well you get a really nice alternative.
Kharneth wrote: Got a question about Terminators, specifically within a World Eaters context.
Are terminators generally effective and/or considered competitive? I've heard of the combi-plasma terminators with a lord, but what about the other options? Does anyone use them with heavy weapons? Does anyone use them with power fists or lightning claws? And does anyone mix and match their equipment upgrades or do people generally leave them identical? They're very expensive and I worry about over-equipping them.
The cheapo loadout is decent.
Problem is, you do kinda need the doubling of dakka, ergo Slaanesh is kinda enforced.
The reaper is a decent choice, worth it's points and a utility weapon.
Melee is too expensive, beyond the chain axe imo.
Although if you go we with them that might even work.
I struggle to even want to use the terminators with chainaxes seeing as they'd be so much worse than berzerkers. It's annoying how the new terminators don't even give you enough chainaxes to equip them all like that anyway.
well you get alot of enegry fist parts, which look like elongated armor plates to defend hands.
Add in a bunch of Chainswords from the new box and well you get a really nice alternative.
I've also been trying to find ways to make terminators good. I dislike the transport tax, so I tend to only field units which have their own transport. Jetpacks and Termis with deepstrike are the ideal. But they just don't tend to be very good at the moment.
I have wondered if Khorne termis + fight twice is ever worth it. Shame it's 3CP instead of 2CP like the shoot twice one is.
Kharneth wrote: Got a question about Terminators, specifically within a World Eaters context.
Are terminators generally effective and/or considered competitive? I've heard of the combi-plasma terminators with a lord, but what about the other options? Does anyone use them with heavy weapons? Does anyone use them with power fists or lightning claws? And does anyone mix and match their equipment upgrades or do people generally leave them identical? They're very expensive and I worry about over-equipping them.
The cheapo loadout is decent.
Problem is, you do kinda need the doubling of dakka, ergo Slaanesh is kinda enforced.
The reaper is a decent choice, worth it's points and a utility weapon.
Melee is too expensive, beyond the chain axe imo.
Although if you go we with them that might even work.
I struggle to even want to use the terminators with chainaxes seeing as they'd be so much worse than berzerkers. It's annoying how the new terminators don't even give you enough chainaxes to equip them all like that anyway.
well you get alot of enegry fist parts, which look like elongated armor plates to defend hands.
Add in a bunch of Chainswords from the new box and well you get a really nice alternative.
I've also been trying to find ways to make terminators good. I dislike the transport tax, so I tend to only field units which have their own transport. Jetpacks and Termis with deepstrike are the ideal. But they just don't tend to be very good at the moment.
I have wondered if Khorne termis + fight twice is ever worth it. Shame it's 3CP instead of 2CP like the shoot twice one is.
Balancing wise the CP cost should've been swapped for these two....
But he it isn't like shooting was superior to melee since 5 editions now?
I generally have had good results with my min 5 squad with axes and CB's and a reaper. The squad is cheap, it still brings a lot of dakka down and has some (albiet iffy) durability to them.
It's a utility unit though, a cheap threat so to speak, if you field it as a legion unit though VotWL and with slaanesh it becomes an oppurtunity threat that needs to be dealt with or ignored. They work best in a list that has multiple of these units, that force a reaction or punish the enemy.
Alternatively AL termites can be deployed from the start and have 24" threat range on their Combibolters.
I don't know if we have reached a tipping point. But I just realised that CSM is now one of the few armies that can literally do turn 1 all out charge now.
Last time, we only had LOS with warptime. But that was just 1 big lord of war.
Then we had Lord Discordant with soulforged pack and advance and charge strategem added. Now we got one more punchy death machine that can quite possibly turn 1 charge.
Now we have chaos knights codex and their strategems and warlord traits and household traits. So, it is certainly quite possible to have 1 melee chaos knight advance and charge with full tilt on turn 1.
And ... we also have helldrakes who can always get a turn 1 charge in because of their ridiculous fly range.
We can also substitute Lord of skulls with Magnus as a warptime target. Same thing. Turn 1 charge with a terrifying lord of war.
So, combine all of this, and we have literally have our whole army charge in turn 1 in an all out do or die. Of course, we still have to deal with chaff and bubble wrap. So, save some points for troop CSM with chain cannons and stuff.
But it kinda sounds like a fun army. And its good against a ranged army that likes to sit back. With such a massive turn 1 charge by multiple biggies. I think a fully ranged army simply won't have enough shooting to handle this type of army before it is right in its gills and wrecking its backline. What do you all think?
Screens, would indeed be a wrench, but inbetween red Corsairs, Lord discordants and Soulforged packs a bunch of helldrakes and other niceties it might, just might, could work?
Eldenfirefly wrote: I don't know if we have reached a tipping point. But I just realised that CSM is now one of the few armies that can literally do turn 1 all out charge now.
Last time, we only had LOS with warptime. But that was just 1 big lord of war.
Then we had Lord Discordant with soulforged pack and advance and charge strategem added. Now we got one more punchy death machine that can quite possibly turn 1 charge.
Now we have chaos knights codex and their strategems and warlord traits and household traits. So, it is certainly quite possible to have 1 melee chaos knight advance and charge with full tilt on turn 1.
And ... we also have helldrakes who can always get a turn 1 charge in because of their ridiculous fly range.
We can also substitute Lord of skulls with Magnus as a warptime target. Same thing. Turn 1 charge with a terrifying lord of war.
So, combine all of this, and we have literally have our whole army charge in turn 1 in an all out do or die. Of course, we still have to deal with chaff and bubble wrap. So, save some points for troop CSM with chain cannons and stuff.
But it kinda sounds like a fun army. And its good against a ranged army that likes to sit back. With such a massive turn 1 charge by multiple biggies. I think a fully ranged army simply won't have enough shooting to handle this type of army before it is right in its gills and wrecking its backline. What do you all think?
Paying CP to advance & charge a single Daemon Engine? Bring a Gnarlmaw or some Slaaneshi Daemons and have a DE jamboree in the enemy DZ on turn one
Extra points for positioning some Fiends of Slaanesh so that enemy units are forced to play punching bag & human shield with the pack of furious Maulers. Please, do rely on short ranged gunners to deal with my shock troops
(On that note, a Host Raptorial of Warp Talons leading a bunch of hammer units are the absolute worst nightmare of armies that rely on short ranged dakka to deal with incursions)
So, putting this idea of a massive turn 1 charge into an actual list. We have below a LOS, a melee despoiler, 2 helldrakes, 1 flying DP, and 1 LD and 3 CSM troops.
It actually packs quite a lot of shots even while charging into that glorious turn 1 charge. Because even while moving up on turn 1 before the charge, you can shoot 3 baleflamers, a demon forged Hades gatling cannon (12 str 8 shots) and Demongore cannon (d6Str 9 shots), a warpbolter, 3 plasma shots and 24 chain cannon shots, and 18 bolter shots (bolter drill). So, can remove some chaff before the turn 1 charge goes in.
And after the shooting, we can then full tilt the despoiler, warptime the LOS, use Infernal Engines on the LD, and have your 6 beasties make that glorious turn 1 charge. lol.
And because its red corsairs, the list actually has 11 CP to play with (for stuff like soul forged pack, full tilt, demonforge, raise ion shields, etc etc. : )
It actually makes sense to deploy the CSM right in front so that they have good range to more chaff to hit, because with up to 6 beasties in your opponents face on turn 1, he doesn't have time to worry about those 15 chaos space marines even if they are not in cover.
PS: it might make more sense to make the LOS iron warriors so that you can use the strategem Iron Within, Iron Without for a 6++ FNP on the LOS since it won't benefit from being red corsairs. But then again, if its red corsair, and the LOS is close enough to the LD, it will become effectively 2+ BS and WS! hehe. I guess its whether you want to go more offense or have some defense.
I was considering running something like this since I have the models for it. Had to cut a baleflamer back to a hades autocannon on one of the heldrakes to make it fit under 2000.. Was considering running bloodslaughterers instead of forgefiends, but not sure exactly how you manage that with battlescribe. Can you not take them as part of a normal CSM batallion?
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, Mark of Slaanesh, Master of the Soulforges, Mecha-serpents, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, Mark of Khorne
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
+ Heavy Support +
Maulerfiend [7 PL, 132pts]: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Slaanesh
Maulerfiend [7 PL, 132pts]: Lasher tendrils, No Chaos Mark
+ Flyer +
Heldrake [9 PL, 157pts]: Hades Autocannon, Heldrake claws, Mark of Khorne
Heldrake [9 PL, 167pts]: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws, Mark of Slaanesh
Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 485pts]: Corrupted Heirloom, Dreadblade, Heavy stubber, Helm of Warpsight, Iconoclast Household, Pacts and Damnations
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
Dracarys wrote: I was considering running something like this since I have the models for it. Had to cut a baleflamer back to a hades autocannon on one of the heldrakes to make it fit under 2000.. Was considering running bloodslaughterers instead of forgefiends, but not sure exactly how you manage that with battlescribe. Can you not take them as part of a normal CSM batallion?
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, Mark of Slaanesh, Master of the Soulforges, Mecha-serpents, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, Mark of Khorne
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
+ Heavy Support +
Maulerfiend [7 PL, 132pts]: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Slaanesh
Maulerfiend [7 PL, 132pts]: Lasher tendrils, No Chaos Mark
+ Flyer +
Heldrake [9 PL, 157pts]: Hades Autocannon, Heldrake claws, Mark of Khorne
Heldrake [9 PL, 167pts]: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws, Mark of Slaanesh
Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 485pts]: Corrupted Heirloom, Dreadblade, Heavy stubber, Helm of Warpsight, Iconoclast Household, Pacts and Damnations
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
I would suggest when asking for list advice to mention what ruleset and what your intent is. The way a list handles in Chapter approved vs NOVA vs ITC is frequently very different. This should be added to the FAQ of this forum and the army list forum. A frequent problem on this forum is lists without context and it becomes challenging to really provide input. For example, the kytan is traditionally not a very competitive unit, nor are heldrakes, yet both are in your list. If you really like the kytan model and the heldrakes - thats great - but then its silly to suggest removing them.
I think this list will suffer on at least two fronts - one against a high flyer list (some have run as many as 9) which will bubble you out - and two hard gunlines (with appropriate screens) will be a tough nut to crack. For example, how exactly does this list deal with some of the top Tau lists that have been out there lately? I'm also not sure you have the tools necessary to deal with most custodes lists that run around on a 3 up invul with rerolls.
For fluff and funsies it looks like it could give an opponent a bad day if they were ill-prepared or running a suboptimal list. Since you have some good components (Lord Disco, Knight etc.) in the list you likely leave most matchups with some impact...
Dracarys wrote: I was considering running something like this since I have the models for it. Had to cut a baleflamer back to a hades autocannon on one of the heldrakes to make it fit under 2000.. Was considering running bloodslaughterers instead of forgefiends, but not sure exactly how you manage that with battlescribe. Can you not take them as part of a normal CSM batallion?
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, Mark of Slaanesh, Master of the Soulforges, Mecha-serpents, Warlord . Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, Mark of Khorne . Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun . 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun . 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun . 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
+ Heavy Support +
Maulerfiend [7 PL, 132pts]: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Slaanesh
Maulerfiend [7 PL, 132pts]: Lasher tendrils, No Chaos Mark
+ Flyer +
Heldrake [9 PL, 157pts]: Hades Autocannon, Heldrake claws, Mark of Khorne
Heldrake [9 PL, 167pts]: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws, Mark of Slaanesh
Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 485pts]: Corrupted Heirloom, Dreadblade, Heavy stubber, Helm of Warpsight, Iconoclast Household, Pacts and Damnations . Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer . Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
I would suggest when asking for list advice to mention what ruleset and what your intent is. The way a list handles in Chapter approved vs NOVA vs ITC is frequently very different. This should be added to the FAQ of this forum and the army list forum. A frequent problem on this forum is lists without context and it becomes challenging to really provide input. For example, the kytan is traditionally not a very competitive unit, nor are heldrakes, yet both are in your list. If you really like the kytan model and the heldrakes - thats great - but then its silly to suggest removing them.
I think this list will suffer on at least two fronts - one against a high flyer list (some have run as many as 9) which will bubble you out - and two hard gunlines (with appropriate screens) will be a tough nut to crack. For example, how exactly does this list deal with some of the top Tau lists that have been out there lately? I'm also not sure you have the tools necessary to deal with most custodes lists that run around on a 3 up invul with rerolls.
For fluff and funsies it looks like it could give an opponent a bad day if they were ill-prepared or running a suboptimal list. Since you have some good components (Lord Disco, Knight etc.) in the list you likely leave most matchups with some impact...
Totally understand. I'm new to competitive 40k (and to 40k generally), so will admit I'm not 100% up to date with the meta (but I'm working towards it). I was looking for some advice for tweaking the list for eventual ITC tournament play. The list was intended to take as many units as possible that would benefit from soul forged pack stratagems (aside from the knight), which may have led to some sub-optimal choices. Thought process behind choices was that the Heldrakes and the dual avenger Chaos Knight would be enough to handle flyers while the Discos, forgefiends and Kytan try to deal with well, everything else. Meanwhile the CP tax chaos marines go for objectives since I don't think they're terribly useful for anything else.
I was thinking about replacing the Drakes and Forgefiends with better long range support, maybe with some hellforged dreadnoughts.
I am also curious about why the Kytan doesn't see much use because looks like it should be good on paper with bonuses to get it into combat, regen, a 3+?5++, and with up to 15 DD3 attacks at strength 10 to deal with infantry or 5 strength 20 D6 for titanic units. It also benefits from Disco buffs. It and the bloodslaughterers seem like they'd be good but perhaps slightly overcosted?
I just played a game over the weekend using what I call my Monster Mash list against a nasty Genestealer Cult/AM list, playing a Relic-variant tournament mission (3 relics). I lost by 1 point, but we had a great game, and the list played very well, so I wanted to share again.
Alpha Legion Battalion
1- Demon Prince of Slaanesh: claws, delightful agonies, intoxicating elixir
1- Sorcerer on bike with axe: warptime, miasma of pestilence
1- Lord Discordant: Mark of nurgle
26- cultists
5- Chaos Marines
5- Chaos Marines
2- Maulerfiends: Lasher tendrils
1- Blood Slaughterer of Khorne: 2 slaughter blades
Alpha Legion Vanguard
1- Warpsmith
3- Helbrutes: fist/scourge; mark of nurgle
Black Legion Patrol
1- Abaddon
30- ccw cultists
I made the Battalion a Soulforged Pack and used Field Commander to give him the Warlord Trait as well. The list gave my opponent some massive target priority confusion, with everything running forward onto objectives and having Maulerfiends and the Blood Slaughterer in his face turn 1. Abaddon and psychic support kept the Cultists alive long enough to score objective holding points. It was a fun list to play and (thanks to the new GW movement trays) fast to play as well.
Dracarys wrote:I was considering running something like this since I have the models for it. Had to cut a baleflamer back to a hades autocannon on one of the heldrakes to make it fit under 2000.. Was considering running bloodslaughterers instead of forgefiends, but not sure exactly how you manage that with battlescribe. Can you not take them as part of a normal CSM batallion?
You need to add chaos - FW heretic astartes to the chaos - chaos space marines. After you created the battalion click edit forces. Now click on the battalion, and click +add. Choose FW heretic astartes and click ok twice. Now you can choose from the FW chaos units.
Dracarys wrote:
I am also curious about why the Kytan doesn't see much use because looks like it should be good on paper with bonuses to get it into combat, regen, a 3+?5++, and with up to 15 DD3 attacks at strength 10 to deal with infantry or 5 strength 20 D6 for titanic units. It also benefits from Disco buffs. It and the bloodslaughterers seem like they'd be good but perhaps slightly overcosted?
A kytan needs support from a disco lord, master of posession/dark apostle, etc. A knight doesnt.
Dracarys wrote:I was considering running something like this since I have the models for it. Had to cut a baleflamer back to a hades autocannon on one of the heldrakes to make it fit under 2000.. Was considering running bloodslaughterers instead of forgefiends, but not sure exactly how you manage that with battlescribe. Can you not take them as part of a normal CSM batallion?
You need to add chaos - FW heretic astartes to the chaos - chaos space marines. After you created the battalion click edit forces. Now click on the battalion, and click +add. Choose FW heretic astartes and click ok twice. Now you can choose from the FW chaos units.
Dracarys wrote:
I am also curious about why the Kytan doesn't see much use because looks like it should be good on paper with bonuses to get it into combat, regen, a 3+?5++, and with up to 15 DD3 attacks at strength 10 to deal with infantry or 5 strength 20 D6 for titanic units. It also benefits from Disco buffs. It and the bloodslaughterers seem like they'd be good but perhaps slightly overcosted?
A kytan needs support from a disco lord, master of posession/dark apostle, etc. A knight doesnt.
A Kytan can operate independently. The only thing it needs is 1CP for infernal engines so it can advance 12+ 2D6 and still charge. After an average 19 move it only needs another 7 to make it 26".
It hasn't been seen much because it's awesome new stratagem is new and the old meta was full of castellan with volcano cannons and lists built to kill a knight.
Not Online!!! wrote:Isn't that the case for, well, basically all daemonengines except the Lord discordant.
Basically yes.
schadenfreude wrote:
A Kytan can operate independently. The only thing it needs is 1CP for infernal engines so it can advance 12+ 2D6 and still charge. After an average 19 move it only needs another 7 to make it 26".
Sure he can operate independently. But its not really a good idea.
To add the Kytan is stuck with a 5++ (I think) whereas the knights typically are on 4++ for 1CP which makes them significantly more durable when being hit with high APd6 weapons at range. Most gunline armies will practically shoot a 4++ knight off the table in one turn so the kytan suffers. Particularly as most lists will now be bringing heavy anti-armor post the Chaos Knight Codex.
orkswubwub wrote: To add the Kytan is stuck with a 5++ (I think) whereas the knights typically are on 4++ for 1CP which makes them significantly more durable when being hit with high APd6 weapons at range. Most gunline armies will practically shoot a 4++ knight off the table in one turn so the kytan suffers. Particularly as most lists will now be bringing heavy anti-armor post the Chaos Knight Codex.
orkswubwub wrote: To add the Kytan is stuck with a 5++ (I think) whereas the knights typically are on 4++ for 1CP which makes them significantly more durable when being hit with high APd6 weapons at range. Most gunline armies will practically shoot a 4++ knight off the table in one turn so the kytan suffers. Particularly as most lists will now be bringing heavy anti-armor post the Chaos Knight Codex.
MoP cursed earth.
That would be another 98 pts though.
Thanks for the reminder. Also requires you to go first to get the psychic ability off which can be damaging (and running a list where a MoP has a place - not seeing many of these guys at the top tables). And while Vect exists, the psychic ability is probably less reliable. In any case, a few reasons why the kytan might not be seeing much competitive play.
Cursed earth can fail, or can be denied. What if you dont get first turn ? No cursed earth. What when the kytan is launched ~26" towards the enemy ? Cursed earth is only 6" aura. A kytan isnt really viable, now that we have chaos knights.
MoP (and a darkness DA) (and a warptimer) will cost more points, of course, but if your army is built to make further use of them that’s not so bad. Cursed Earth is an aura, so it can also benefit Defilers, Fiends, Oblits or Possessed. DA can make Cultists last longer if you’re not doing an Abaddon castle. If you’re not doing Khorne Daemonkin, you’re probably going to do something with Warptime, and if you’ve got a TITANIC HERETIC ASTARTES unit it may as well be that.
Of course, MoP CE being a short ranged aura makes it a bit of a ball-and-chain for a unit that’s going to run 12+2D6”. So really, the darkness DA is about the best option for a Kytan (or LoS) endurance buff.
So I'm kind of interested in a side-by-side comparison of the new FW wardogs and the FW dreads we've been seeing a bunch of.
I'm actually feeling pretty favorable. There is a major anti-infantry gun on there which feels quite worth it. 2x H6 Str 6 ap -2 1 damage with the Tesla rule (2 bonus hits on a roll of 6 to hit). That's right around 12 hits on average, a pretty good target for an infernal gun bump. Kills 10.5 Guardsman on average vs the butcher cannon contemptor which kills 4.5 or the C-beamer which kills about 7.
It'll be better in the anti-horde shooting role than the butcher cannons and probably than even the C-beam. Runs just 10 points more than a contemptor. Much faster 14 vs 9, toughness is probably a wash (knight has +2W, but no melee invuln). Legions traits vs Knight traits...probably favors the knight in anything other than Alpha legion.
We've kind of been craving anti-horde shooting. I feel like two of these guys + a dual thermal knight might be an excellent firebase for us, given that FW dreads were already great. That'd be an excellent way to clear a path for some lord discos to charge through.
So I'm at the point in the game where I'm at kind of an intermediate level. Everyone around me is better or I feel bad picking on n00bs. I figure I have 3 options, try a new faction, try building another CSM list, or quit.
Cursed earth can fail, or can be denied. What if you dont get first turn ? No cursed earth. What when the kytan is launched ~26" towards the enemy ? Cursed earth is only 6" aura. A kytan isnt really viable, now that we have chaos knights.
I just answered the question if the ++save in improvable. It is.
I also agree about the point of Chaos knights doesn't however stop me from wishing that we would have functional as in decent enough daemonengines instead.
xenoterracide wrote: So I'm at the point in the game where I'm at kind of an intermediate level. Everyone around me is better or I feel bad picking on n00bs. I figure I have 3 options, try a new faction, try building another CSM list, or quit.
There's several people running triple LDs at my FLGS. They do okay but get outclassed by Orks and Eldar. Fine to build a list around them, but I wouldn't look at them as a silver bullet. Look at Defilers, Helbrutes and cheap troops to round it out.
Can you talk more about what's going wrong with the recent list? Is there a specific army you're having trouble with, is there a specific point in games where it breaks down, do you just not like the list, or is it something else?
You've got a lot of heavy weapons and 5 HQs. The mid-range units are 60 Cultists and 10 CSMs. I'm guessing most games involve running up the middle with the troops / LD, deep striking Abaddon with the Obliterators, and letting the Havocs hang back and shoot. You're probably losing a lot of Havocs and Cultists first turn, hitting back hard second turn, then trading blows until one side sputters.
My concern is there's not enough priority targets and the majority of your offense is concentrated in a few units. The Havocs, Lord Dischordant and Obliterators - 5 units - are your heavy hitters. You lose a lot of firepower each time one goes down. Once they're gone, you're relying on Cultists, a CSM squad, HQs and a Spawn to beat your opponent mid-range.
If I was going to optimize this list, I'd be focused on spreading out the offense, increasing the total number of wounds, and creating some legitimate close combat threats.
xenoterracide wrote: So I'm at the point in the game where I'm at kind of an intermediate level. Everyone around me is better or I feel bad picking on n00bs. I figure I have 3 options, try a new faction, try building another CSM list, or quit.
Firstly, you play black legion as main trait. That is a problem.
Secondly, Mark the cultists. Slaanesh.
Chance sorcerer to Slaanesh.
Throw out the baleflamer, the AC is cheaper.
Oblits need to be Slaanesh or nurgle with the right soup.
Cut the marines down too 5.
Consider running 10 man cultists squads instead.
xenoterracide wrote: So I'm at the point in the game where I'm at kind of an intermediate level. Everyone around me is better or I feel bad picking on n00bs. I figure I have 3 options, try a new faction, try building another CSM list, or quit.
There's several people running triple LDs at my FLGS. They do okay but get outclassed by Orks and Eldar. Fine to build a list around them, but I wouldn't look at them as a silver bullet. Look at Defilers, Helbrutes and cheap troops to round it out.
Can you talk more about what's going wrong with the recent list? Is there a specific army you're having trouble with, is there a specific point in games where it breaks down, do you just not like the list, or is it something else?
You've got a lot of heavy weapons and 5 HQs. The mid-range units are 60 Cultists and 10 CSMs. I'm guessing most games involve running up the middle with the troops / LD, deep striking Abaddon with the Obliterators, and letting the Havocs hang back and shoot. You're probably losing a lot of Havocs and Cultists first turn, hitting back hard second turn, then trading blows until one side sputters.
My concern is there's not enough priority targets and the majority of your offense is concentrated in a few units. The Havocs, Lord Dischordant and Obliterators - 5 units - are your heavy hitters. You lose a lot of firepower each time one goes down. Once they're gone, you're relying on Cultists, a CSM squad, HQs and a Spawn to beat your opponent mid-range.
If I was going to optimize this list, I'd be focused on spreading out the offense, increasing the total number of wounds, and creating some legitimate close combat threats.
Anyone ever tried using cheap Chosen units? I've been considering taking them with combi-bolters and chainswords (perhaps chain axes) for a cheap elite unit that can dump out a lot of shots and also fight in close combat. The plan was to kit them out like a grey knight unit (but without the over priced power weapon), so perhaps a couple combi-plasmas in there and a champion with a power fist. I'm wondering if they're worth it over Terminators or Bikers who also have access to combi-bolters but are much more expensive.
Kharneth wrote: Anyone ever tried using cheap Chosen units? I've been considering taking them with combi-bolters and chainswords (perhaps chain axes) for a cheap elite unit that can dump out a lot of shots and also fight in close combat. The plan was to kit them out like a grey knight unit (but without the over priced power weapon), so perhaps a couple combi-plasmas in there and a champion with a power fist. I'm wondering if they're worth it over Terminators or Bikers who also have access to combi-bolters but are much more expensive.
I run a 5 man with 5 cb 's.
It's a nice little screen cleaner but not much else.
Might get interesting with VotLW.
Anyone field a shooty alpha legion army?? Trying to think of how to maximise the -1 to hit. Want 3 havoc squads in a devestation battery definitely and some oblits. Thinking of a battalion of mainly cultists and some CSM with a few termies with the rest of the army being a chaos Knights detachment.
There's several people running triple LDs at my FLGS. They do okay but get outclassed by Orks and Eldar. Fine to build a list around them, but I wouldn't look at them as a silver bullet. Look at Defilers, Helbrutes and cheap troops to round it out.
Here I was worried about Tau, because charging Tau is like impossible because of that "everything in 6 inches gets to shoot overwatch". I haven't actually played against eldar yet or ork's yet, we don't have a lot of those in the local meta.
Can you talk more about what's going wrong with the recent list? Is there a specific army you're having trouble with, is there a specific point in games where it breaks down, do you just not like the list, or is it something else?
You've got a lot of heavy weapons and 5 HQs. The mid-range units are 60 Cultists and 10 CSMs. I'm guessing most games involve running up the middle with the troops / LD, deep striking Abaddon with the Obliterators, and letting the Havocs hang back and shoot. You're probably losing a lot of Havocs and Cultists first turn, hitting back hard second turn, then trading blows until one side sputters.
mobility is a big one, I realize I just don't have the movement I need to get objectives playing maelstrom. That's pretty much exactly what happened in a game vs admech, all my havocs were dead at the end of turn 1. I've been running abaddon up the middle with the cultists to keep them in his morale aura. So far abaddon does very little for me (and I don't have the new model, an old conversion, been running this list to figure out if I want the new model), if I get him into combat he seems to die fairly quickly to something that's a lot more pain causing. Maybe I shouldn't be trying to get him into melee and let him simply provide rerolls for shooty things. Usually by turn 4 I'm pretty well shot off the board.
My concern is there's not enough priority targets and the majority of your offense is concentrated in a few units. The Havocs, Lord Dischordant and Obliterators - 5 units - are your heavy hitters. You lose a lot of firepower each time one goes down. Once they're gone, you're relying on Cultists, a CSM squad, HQs and a Spawn to beat your opponent mid-range.
If I was going to optimize this list, I'd be focused on spreading out the offense, increasing the total number of wounds, and creating some legitimate close combat threats.
yeah, I don't disagree, but I feel like (and this isn't my first list, though it is at 2k) that my attempts to build a list all come out wrong, I'll make an attempt later today.
There's several people running triple LDs at my FLGS. They do okay but get outclassed by Orks and Eldar. Fine to build a list around them, but I wouldn't look at them as a silver bullet. Look at Defilers, Helbrutes and cheap troops to round it out.
Here I was worried about Tau, because charging Tau is like impossible because of that "everything in 6 inches gets to shoot overwatch". I haven't actually played against eldar yet or ork's yet, we don't have a lot of those in the local meta.
Well, at least they only get to do it once per unit, so hopefully you've got enough redundancy (or a moderately threatening unit to go in first to take the overwatch) to have multiple charge threats.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone field a shooty alpha legion army?? Trying to think of how to maximise the -1 to hit. Want 3 havoc squads in a devestation battery definitely and some oblits. Thinking of a battalion of mainly cultists and some CSM with a few termies with the rest of the army being a chaos Knights detachment.
I don’t, but I have given it some thought.
Devbat absolutely sounds good. Gatling gun squad can forwards deploy to really put pressure on screens, and punishing volley near guarantees a solid impact in the early game.
Slaaneshi DP with AL trait, Elixir, and Warptime (from self or from help) seems like a solid asset in Maelstrom. If you draw priority orders, it can Boromir without forfeiting many VPs.
Slaaneshi daemon support - especially Epitome - feels good. It lets the above DP advance & charge, does the same for a hypothetical Possessed squad that uses forward ops & Warptime to charge on T1. Throw in some Fiends and you’ve got a potential burning tarpit.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone field a shooty alpha legion army?? Trying to think of how to maximise the -1 to hit. Want 3 havoc squads in a devestation battery definitely and some oblits. Thinking of a battalion of mainly cultists and some CSM with a few termies with the rest of the army being a chaos Knights detachment.
I don’t, but I have given it some thought.
Devbat absolutely sounds good. Gatling gun squad can forwards deploy to really put pressure on screens, and punishing volley near guarantees a solid impact in the early game.
Slaaneshi DP with AL trait, Elixir, and Warptime (from self or from help) seems like a solid asset in Maelstrom. If you draw priority orders, it can Boromir without forfeiting many VPs.
Slaaneshi daemon support - especially Epitome - feels good. It lets the above DP advance & charge, does the same for a hypothetical Possessed squad that uses forward ops & Warptime to charge on T1. Throw in some Fiends and you’ve got a potential burning tarpit.
Nice ideas there, I'm trying to avoid daemons if possible as I absolutely hate the Daemon prince model but they are great on the table.
I also looked at the very popular option of forgeworld dreads but I can literally buy a chaos Knight for the price of a single dread so it seems pointless.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone field a shooty alpha legion army?? Trying to think of how to maximise the -1 to hit. Want 3 havoc squads in a devestation battery definitely and some oblits. Thinking of a battalion of mainly cultists and some CSM with a few termies with the rest of the army being a chaos Knights detachment.
I don’t, but I have given it some thought.
Devbat absolutely sounds good. Gatling gun squad can forwards deploy to really put pressure on screens, and punishing volley near guarantees a solid impact in the early game.
Slaaneshi DP with AL trait, Elixir, and Warptime (from self or from help) seems like a solid asset in Maelstrom. If you draw priority orders, it can Boromir without forfeiting many VPs.
Slaaneshi daemon support - especially Epitome - feels good. It lets the above DP advance & charge, does the same for a hypothetical Possessed squad that uses forward ops & Warptime to charge on T1. Throw in some Fiends and you’ve got a potential burning tarpit.
Nice ideas there, I'm trying to avoid daemons if possible as I absolutely hate the Daemon prince model but they are great on the table.
I also looked at the very popular option of forgeworld dreads but I can literally buy a chaos Knight for the price of a single dread so it seems pointless.
then build a daemonprince!
Quite literally!
Lord discordants also get some use out of beeing AL.
The whole schtick of AL is also Cultists and agents so maybee field cultists as troop options in 10 man squads, i wouldn't necessarrily stack -1 to hits instead would go for slaanesh and the 5+++ you can cast. Sad matter is the DA is too expensive for what he does and mark of nurgle is rather meh for CSM.
Daemons work very well with daemon engines. A fluxmaster will give tzeentch venomcrawlers S+1, and he can buff them with flickering flames/boon of change. Add a tzeentch greater possessed for another S+1. Same with a tzeentch disco lord. A changeling can give all your tzeentch daemon engines within 9" a 6+ FNP. You got 6 daemon engines ? Thats ~60 6+ FNP rolls. A tzeentch daemon prince let them re-roll 1s to hit, and can cast diabolic strength/warptime on them.
p5freak wrote: Daemons work very well with daemon engines. A fluxmaster will give tzeentch venomcrawlers S+1, and he can buff them with flickering flames/boon of change. Add a tzeentch greater possessed for another S+1. Same with a tzeentch disco lord. A changeling can give all your tzeentch daemon engines within 9" a 6+ FNP. You got 6 daemon engines ? Thats ~60 6+ FNP rolls. A tzeentch daemon prince let them re-roll 1s to hit, and can cast diabolic strength/warptime on them.
That would however require the venomcrawler be actually good (or most other daemon engines).
And the venomcrawler is meh at best.
(also 6 pts more and you get a defiler which does everything the venomcrawler does but better.)
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Intoxicating Elixir, Mark of Slaanesh, Reaver Lord Artefact
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Slaanesh, Mecha-serpents, Reaver Lord, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 76pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 76pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 76pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
Well, defilers dont benefit from the alpha legion trait, -1 to get hit. They also dont benefit from +1 to hit from the disco lords, because its not the same legion. I would remove the spearhead and move the defilers to the battalion, and add a third defiler. A master of possession with cursed earth can give all your daemon engines within 6" +1 to inv. and use sacrifice to heal them. Upgrade your aspiring champions with chainaxes and SB, its worth 3 pts. You should have some meatshield to protect your helbrutes from deepstrikers, add more CSM. Prescience on a sorcerer wouldnt be a bad idea to give helbrutes or defilers +1 to hit.
Yeah defilers are great but the models are just tragic I think. I really love all the newer Chaos models though! I am so picky haha I want an Alpha legion army with only the new models. It's a slow grow anyway.
p5freak wrote: Well, defilers dont benefit from the alpha legion trait, -1 to get hit. They also dont benefit from +1 to hit from the disco lords, because its not the same legion. I would remove the spearhead and move the defilers to the battalion, and add a third defiler. A master of possession with cursed earth can give all your daemon engines within 6" +1 to inv. and use sacrifice to heal them. Upgrade your aspiring champions with chainaxes and SB, its worth 3 pts. You should have some meatshield to protect your helbrutes from deepstrikers, add more CSM. Prescience on a sorcerer wouldnt be a bad idea to give helbrutes or defilers +1 to hit.
questions SB? what's that, can't be a storm bolter... won't the master of possession not be able to keep up with the vehicles? Also, would I drop a lord discordant for him? or do I need to restructure further.
Sorry, i meant combi bolter, which is the same rules wise. You drop the obliterators. You already have enough heavy weapons. The MoP would need to advance to keep up with the daemon engines, which doesnt really matter, he has no important guns, and you dont want to charge with him.
p5freak wrote: Sorry, i meant combi bolter, which is the same rules wise. You drop the obliterators. You already have enough heavy weapons. The MoP would need to advance to keep up with the daemon engines, which doesnt really matter, he has no important guns, and you dont want to charge with him.
p5freak wrote: Well, defilers dont benefit from the alpha legion trait, -1 to get hit. They also dont benefit from +1 to hit from the disco lords, because its not the same legion. I would remove the spearhead and move the defilers to the battalion, and add a third defiler. A master of possession with cursed earth can give all your daemon engines within 6" +1 to inv. and use sacrifice to heal them. Upgrade your aspiring champions with chainaxes and SB, its worth 3 pts. You should have some meatshield to protect your helbrutes from deepstrikers, add more CSM. Prescience on a sorcerer wouldnt be a bad idea to give helbrutes or defilers +1 to hit.
questions SB? what's that, can't be a storm bolter... won't the master of possession not be able to keep up with the vehicles? Also, would I drop a lord discordant for him? or do I need to restructure further.
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Intoxicating Elixir, Mark of Slaanesh, Reaver Lord Artefact
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Khorne, Mecha-serpents, Reaver Lord, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 133pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
. 9x Marine w/ Boltgun
Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 92pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 133pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
. 9x Marine w/ Boltgun
p5freak wrote: Sorry, i meant combi bolter, which is the same rules wise. You drop the obliterators. You already have enough heavy weapons. The MoP would need to advance to keep up with the daemon engines, which doesnt really matter, he has no important guns, and you dont want to charge with him.
That would however require the venomcrawler be actually good (or most other daemon engines).
And the venomcrawler is meh at best.
(also 6 pts more and you get a defiler which does everything the venomcrawler does but better.)
Venomcrawlers may not be as good as defilers, but they are far from meh.
How often do you see daemon engines?
Which daemon engine beyond the LoD sees actual play at higher levels?
i rest my case.
Don Hooson took 2 venomcrawlers to the LA GT and came 3rd. I've also seen a few venomcrawlers in local tournaments. They are cheaper, more buffable, move further and have assault weapons olso hit on 3+ after moving unlike the defiler and can advance, shoot and charge with strat.
Definately would take 3 LDs before my 1st venomcrawler but they're definitely not useless.
p5freak wrote: Sorry, i meant combi bolter, which is the same rules wise. You drop the obliterators. You already have enough heavy weapons. The MoP would need to advance to keep up with the daemon engines, which doesnt really matter, he has no important guns, and you dont want to charge with him.
That would however require the venomcrawler be actually good (or most other daemon engines).
And the venomcrawler is meh at best.
(also 6 pts more and you get a defiler which does everything the venomcrawler does but better.)
Venomcrawlers may not be as good as defilers, but they are far from meh.
How often do you see daemon engines?
Which daemon engine beyond the LoD sees actual play at higher levels?
i rest my case.
Don Hooson took 2 venomcrawlers to the LA GT and came 3rd. I've also seen a few venomcrawlers in local tournaments. They are cheaper, more buffable, move further and have assault weapons olso hit on 3+ after moving unlike the defiler and can advance, shoot and charge with strat.
Definately would take 3 LDs before my 1st venomcrawler but they're definitely not useless.
How is a Venomcrawler hitting at 3+? With a lord discordant at his side only.
I do belive that the maulerfiend did get outclassed by the utility and (especially) because of the pricetag (btw can someone explain to me why magmameltas the mauler gets are that expensive?) but the defiler is just as nice a target to be babysitted by a Lord discordant.
Anyways i got a concept idea i wanted to try out:
Spoiler:
The whole list is run as Alpha legion. Marines and Cultists are marked as Slaanesh,except the 20 man blob for melee that is khorne)
Heavy Support Battalion
Sorcerer Staff 98 pts.
Heavy Support:
Venomcrawler 130 pts.
1 Obliterator 115 pts
1 obliterator 115 pts.
Total 1414pts. So far. . (see blog for what allready exists)
Suggestion: Second -Battalion:
3 x Lord Discordant: 480 pts.
2x 10 cultists with Autoguns 100 pts
(the 20 man squad get's moved in here, also the Elite detachment get's consolidated)
the Three sorcerers are basically equipped with Warp time, Death hex, the 5+++ power i also always forget the name off, well the usual suspects.)
I am Alpharius is the warlord trait,(for obvious reasons) i'd imagine a soulforged detachment for the Second suggested battalion with the moved in Venomcrawler and oblits
I am mostly concerned about the second suggested battalion and overall thoughts on the list
p5freak wrote: Well, defilers dont benefit from the alpha legion trait, -1 to get hit. They also dont benefit from +1 to hit from the disco lords, because its not the same legion. I would remove the spearhead and move the defilers to the battalion, and add a third defiler. A master of possession with cursed earth can give all your daemon engines within 6" +1 to inv. and use sacrifice to heal them. Upgrade your aspiring champions with chainaxes and SB, its worth 3 pts. You should have some meatshield to protect your helbrutes from deepstrikers, add more CSM. Prescience on a sorcerer wouldnt be a bad idea to give helbrutes or defilers +1 to hit.
questions SB? what's that, can't be a storm bolter... won't the master of possession not be able to keep up with the vehicles? Also, would I drop a lord discordant for him? or do I need to restructure further.
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark . Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Intoxicating Elixir, Mark of Slaanesh, Reaver Lord Artefact . Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Khorne, Mecha-serpents, Reaver Lord, Warlord . Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 133pts]: No Chaos Mark . Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter . 9x Marine w/ Boltgun
Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 92pts]: No Chaos Mark . Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter . 4x Marine w/ Boltgun . Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 133pts]: No Chaos Mark . Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter . 9x Marine w/ Boltgun
Question: Isn't this list similar to the one you have been running? Big force running up the board, heavy weapons standing in the back?
There's still 5 HQs only now there's fewer guns, the Cultists have been replaced by Daemon Engines, and nothing gets to deep strike. This might be more of a sidegrade than an upgrade.
Here's what concerns me:
- Death Hex on the Sorcerer. Isn't he there to put Prescience on shooty units? Who's invul is he going to be erasing? Warptime might be more effective.
- The lascannons on the Defilers. The Defilers are BS 4 and will probably be moving the entire game. Weapons with more shots work better on these guys than ones with more damage. Heavy Flamers are sometimes the most effective option.
- CSMs without heavy weapons. Blasphemy! Those lascannons would do more in the hands of CSMs.
That said, the LDs and the Defilers are the main thrust of your offense. That's 78 wounds total on 6 models, each of which gets bracketed at 6 wounds. Think about what Mechanicum / Tau / Eldar / IG armies are going to do in the first turn...
The pattern I see is your lists are built around a grand offensive threat with significant vulnerabilities. Each list will work in some games but break against armies that specialize in what you're building around (infantry, vehicles, etc.) There are a lot of points going into HQs - which is not necessarily bad - but that comes at the cost of a more varied and balanced list.
Something to consider is the idea of a one-two punch. For each offensive threat, what's there to diminish your opponent's ability to respond? You don't want to be in situations where the obvious move is to bear down on your main offensive threat with an entire army.
Going back to your original list for a minute, the Havocs would be more resilient if they were part of an Alpha Legion detachment. Swap the autocannons for lascannons / missle launchers, add a Chaos Lord for rerolls on 1s, and now you have something that challenges the soulforged pack in terms of offensive ability. Your opponents will waste a lot of shots trying to take them out, plus they can move without penalty.
Getting rid of the Obliterators was an interesting decision, but ask yourself if 3 Defilers are actually going to outperform them offensively in a game. The fact they can deep strike and do a ton of damage means your opponent can't ignore them, the rest of your army gets a pass the turn they arrive.
The Lord Dischordants are characters with more than 10 wounds, there's no way to shield them with intervening models. Besides cc, they are really there to buff your Defilers. Do you actually need 3 of them? A Daemon Prince is about as good in cc but can't be shot until he's in the open. Do you really want 3 ccHQs that can get bracketed, or do you want something that's more likely to get there and can bring some psychic as well?
I like the way your lists are evolving but would really like to see something with more units and a more varied offense.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Yeah defilers are great but the models are just tragic I think. I really love all the newer Chaos models though! I am so picky haha I want an Alpha legion army with only the new models. It's a slow grow anyway.
A Maulerfiend built with two fists, a hades autocannon, a set of tendrils (or melta cutter if heavy Flamer is your thing) and a Plasma maw with a tube extension on the gun is a pretty WYSIWYG way to make a devils that matches the more modern DE aesthetic
p5freak wrote: Well, defilers dont benefit from the alpha legion trait, -1 to get hit. They also dont benefit from +1 to hit from the disco lords, because its not the same legion. I would remove the spearhead and move the defilers to the battalion, and add a third defiler. A master of possession with cursed earth can give all your daemon engines within 6" +1 to inv. and use sacrifice to heal them. Upgrade your aspiring champions with chainaxes and SB, its worth 3 pts. You should have some meatshield to protect your helbrutes from deepstrikers, add more CSM. Prescience on a sorcerer wouldnt be a bad idea to give helbrutes or defilers +1 to hit.
questions SB? what's that, can't be a storm bolter... won't the master of possession not be able to keep up with the vehicles? Also, would I drop a lord discordant for him? or do I need to restructure further.
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Intoxicating Elixir, Mark of Slaanesh, Reaver Lord Artefact
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Khorne, Mecha-serpents, Reaver Lord, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 133pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
. 9x Marine w/ Boltgun
Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 92pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 133pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
. 9x Marine w/ Boltgun
Question: Isn't this list similar to the one you have been running? Big force running up the board, heavy weapons standing in the back?
There's still 5 HQs only now there's fewer guns, the Cultists have been replaced by Daemon Engines, and nothing gets to deep strike. This might be more of a sidegrade than an upgrade.
Here's what concerns me:
- Death Hex on the Sorcerer. Isn't he there to put Prescience on shooty units? Who's invul is he going to be erasing? Warptime might be more effective.
- The lascannons on the Defilers. The Defilers are BS 4 and will probably be moving the entire game. Weapons with more shots work better on these guys than ones with more damage. Heavy Flamers are sometimes the most effective option.
- CSMs without heavy weapons. Blasphemy! Those lascannons would do more in the hands of CSMs.
That said, the LDs and the Defilers are the main thrust of your offense. That's 78 wounds total on 6 models, each of which gets bracketed at 6 wounds. Think about what Mechanicum / Tau / Eldar / IG armies are going to do in the first turn...
The pattern I see is your lists are built around a grand offensive threat with significant vulnerabilities. Each list will work in some games but break against armies that specialize in what you're building around (infantry, vehicles, etc.) There are a lot of points going into HQs - which is not necessarily bad - but that comes at the cost of a more varied and balanced list.
Something to consider is the idea of a one-two punch. For each offensive threat, what's there to diminish your opponent's ability to respond? You don't want to be in situations where the obvious move is to bear down on your main offensive threat with an entire army.
Going back to your original list for a minute, the Havocs would be more resilient if they were part of an Alpha Legion detachment. Swap the autocannons for lascannons / missle launchers, add a Chaos Lord for rerolls on 1s, and now you have something that challenges the soulforged pack in terms of offensive ability. Your opponents will waste a lot of shots trying to take them out, plus they can move without penalty.
Getting rid of the Obliterators was an interesting decision, but ask yourself if 3 Defilers are actually going to outperform them offensively in a game. The fact they can deep strike and do a ton of damage means your opponent can't ignore them, the rest of your army gets a pass the turn they arrive.
The Lord Dischordants are characters with more than 10 wounds, there's no way to shield them with intervening models. Besides cc, they are really there to buff your Defilers. Do you actually need 3 of them? A Daemon Prince is about as good in cc but can't be shot until he's in the open. Do you really want 3 ccHQs that can get bracketed, or do you want something that's more likely to get there and can bring some psychic as well?
hmm... I wonder if my intermediate list with a couple of tweaks fits what you're suggesting more
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Intoxicating Elixir, Mark of Slaanesh, Reaver Lord Artefact
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Mecha-serpents, No Chaos Mark, Reaver Lord, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 85pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 85pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 85pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher
I've also thought that I could use alpha legion's strategem to set the obliterators up nearer to my enemies first turn, and if need be then use devastation battery to hit them before they can shoot at me.
ran this list tonight playing "The Relic" Eternal war mission. Went 7 rounds before being completely wiped, however those last 3 rounds the relic was highly contested and it was anyone's game.
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Intoxicating Elixir, Mark of Slaanesh, Master of the Soulforges, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Khorne
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Khorne
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 85pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 85pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 85pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher
One question I have, my opponent says alpha legion's -1 to hit doesn't apply within 12 inches. Is that true? where can I reference that rule? I've been told conflicting things about penalties to hit, so I'd like to better understand when they do and do not apply.
So, after seeing the Chaos Apocalypse box, I have started thinking about making a marines/knights army. The knights would be kitted out with thermal cannons, and the marines would fill in objective grabbing/infantry killing.
With that in mind, what would be a good second HQ for the marines? The first one would be a terminator lord or sorcerer from the apocalypse box (probably sorcerer for death hex and shooting mind lasers at people). My FLGS has a clampack lord and the master of executions, so those are the top two. The master of executions seems interesting as a beatstick, especially since it seems like I would not have a whole lot to buff (some marine squads with chaincannons and a couple bike squads).
Any suggestions, tips, etc? I sort of want to get one of the HQ dudes in order to build and paint before I really decide about getting a new army. I am not too worried about being top tier, since I have my Tau for that, this would be more of a fun, cool looking chaos army.
Yaktan wrote: So, after seeing the Chaos Apocalypse box, I have started thinking about making a marines/knights army. The knights would be kitted out with thermal cannons, and the marines would fill in objective grabbing/infantry killing.
With that in mind, what would be a good second HQ for the marines? The first one would be a terminator lord or sorcerer from the apocalypse box (probably sorcerer for death hex and shooting mind lasers at people). My FLGS has a clampack lord and the master of executions, so those are the top two. The master of executions seems interesting as a beatstick, especially since it seems like I would not have a whole lot to buff (some marine squads with chaincannons and a couple bike squads).
Any suggestions, tips, etc? I sort of want to get one of the HQ dudes in order to build and paint before I really decide about getting a new army. I am not too worried about being top tier, since I have my Tau for that, this would be more of a fun, cool looking chaos army.
master of executions can easily turned into count's as khorne DA if you want.
Jokes aside, do you favour any particular lore or unit type?
You could f.e. go for a red corsair flod list. Recyclable marines galore, they also generate decent CP for your knights to use.
Alternate take, get yourself 3 more HQ's and form 2 battalions.
So imma building a Slaanesh Daemonkin list. Should I take daemonettes as battalion troops, or chaos marines/cultists (they'd have to be flawless host)?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Perhaps go dark horse and throw in some renegades and heretics?
Yaktan wrote: So, after seeing the Chaos Apocalypse box, I have started thinking about making a marines/knights army. The knights would be kitted out with thermal cannons, and the marines would fill in objective grabbing/infantry killing.
With that in mind, what would be a good second HQ for the marines? The first one would be a terminator lord or sorcerer from the apocalypse box (probably sorcerer for death hex and shooting mind lasers at people). My FLGS has a clampack lord and the master of executions, so those are the top two. The master of executions seems interesting as a beatstick, especially since it seems like I would not have a whole lot to buff (some marine squads with chaincannons and a couple bike squads).
Any suggestions, tips, etc? I sort of want to get one of the HQ dudes in order to build and paint before I really decide about getting a new army. I am not too worried about being top tier, since I have my Tau for that, this would be more of a fun, cool looking chaos army.
Whilst the Lord costs a bit more than the MoE, if you’re kitting out the Heretacs with a bunch of big guns, the Lord’s aura is likely going to be worth the difference. Or, if you go with the clampack one, you can give him a jump pack and have him smash faces in with his hammer.
What will be the ramifications of this? Will an extra attack open up any new possibilities for us? We have a bunch of units whose lack of attacks is often bemoaned, such as Warp Talons and Possessed. Will this get them out there again?
How about the various Iron Tide mass CSM swarms we were talking about after Vigilus 2 came out? Flawless Host seems like it gains a bunch from this, and of course Red Corsair recycle lists.
How about melee plague marines?
This hasn't addressed our survival issues, so I'm not sure it's really gonna be enough.
Makes melee Plague Marines more appealing as you said, BUT without two base attacks to work with in the first place they'll still be a bad choice to do so.
It also gave World Eaters 6-7th Rage for all intents and purposes.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Makes melee Plague Marines more appealing as you said, BUT without two base attacks to work with in the first place they'll still be a bad choice to do so.
It also gave World Eaters 6-7th Rage for all intents and purposes.
Plague Marines can get a second attack if they take 2 melee weapons already, so this would be a 3rd.
I don't think it really helps berzerkers all that much as that tended to overkill in melee anyway. They needed a defense boost.
What will be the ramifications of this? Will an extra attack open up any new possibilities for us? We have a bunch of units whose lack of attacks is often bemoaned, such as Warp Talons and Possessed. Will this get them out there again?
How about the various Iron Tide mass CSM swarms we were talking about after Vigilus 2 came out? Flawless Host seems like it gains a bunch from this, and of course Red Corsair recycle lists.
How about melee plague marines?
This hasn't addressed our survival issues, so I'm not sure it's really gonna be enough.
I think it helps out mele lords a lot. Smash captains, chain lord etc will be even more viable.
If Terminators get it blightlords with blades of putrifaction and VotLW gets even more silly. A unit of 10 would get 3d3 flail attacks each and 8 mortal wounds, wounding everything on 2s or 3s with their 37 attacks. That's enough to smoke a knight or a unit of deathwatch veterans.
What will be the ramifications of this? Will an extra attack open up any new possibilities for us? We have a bunch of units whose lack of attacks is often bemoaned, such as Warp Talons and Possessed. Will this get them out there again?
How about the various Iron Tide mass CSM swarms we were talking about after Vigilus 2 came out? Flawless Host seems like it gains a bunch from this, and of course Red Corsair recycle lists.
How about melee plague marines?
This hasn't addressed our survival issues, so I'm not sure it's really gonna be enough.
It will make our big beatsticks even beatier.
Altough i seriously doubt they needed it.
However, i can see now a Corsairs blob list relying on this and chainswords and no shortage of Corsairs to Rain on parades in melee.
However i doubt that it be more effective then the dakka variant we could field now but might be enough pressure and restricting that it might work.
Raptors certainly got a bit more interesting, as do warptalons and possesed. Core melee units that were either too unreliable or had just too few attacks.
However the price of these still is making them questionable at best imo soooooo, ehh maybee?
Chosen frankly still do way better as dakka unit but with the added access to chainswords and this they might become a really fancy allrounder? but why field them, they get outperformed in both aspects and are not durable enough to justify thatn
Cultmarines are like their basic marine brethern mostly, the extra attacks help but require mobility. And we can only sling so many units across the board. There are also other, better, units wanting to get slinged soooooo.
Maybee noize Boys and plaguemarines get interesting enough?
Mobility is still an issue though for these.
As for thousand sons, that would be a waste of inferno boltguns. Also pricetags.
Khorne Berzerkers get even more nuts then they were allready.
Chainsword chainaxe is 3 attacks allready without the double fighting inherent to them.
Screens will annoy them still but at that ammount of attacks even knights Beginn to dislike their chances.
Overall though it doesn't really help the problem children legions that just get outperformed, like WB,WE,NL, ETC.
It also only really boost red Corsairs from the Vigilus book and maybee makes Flawless bit more interesting for an melee army but lack of VotLW and access to khorne double fighting makes that only second line improvements.
Overall for all basic marines, imo, the full equipment (bolter,
Boltpistol and chainsword) instead of an further rule would've helped and not just only the offensive, which tbh is questionable behaviour for 13 pts 2 shots at 24" models.
It's better then nothing but i fear overall still pretty rarely used or making Units usefull.
The biggest winner imo are raptors and warptalons aswell as bikers.
For the average csm and or cultmarine that is not a khornate rage Tripper i think nothing really changed.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Makes melee Plague Marines more appealing as you said, BUT without two base attacks to work with in the first place they'll still be a bad choice to do so.
It also gave World Eaters 6-7th Rage for all intents and purposes.
Plague Marines can get a second attack if they take 2 melee weapons already, so this would be a 3rd.
I don't think it really helps berzerkers all that much as that tended to overkill in melee anyway. They needed a defense boost.
Which they give up ALL shooting to do. Even Berserker Marines are more snooty than melee Plague Marines.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Makes melee Plague Marines more appealing as you said, BUT without two base attacks to work with in the first place they'll still be a bad choice to do so.
It also gave World Eaters 6-7th Rage for all intents and purposes.
Plague Marines can get a second attack if they take 2 melee weapons already, so this would be a 3rd.
I don't think it really helps berzerkers all that much as that tended to overkill in melee anyway. They needed a defense boost.
Which they give up ALL shooting to do. Even Berserker Marines are more snooty than melee Plague Marines.
I mean you can go tank Hunting now with Berzerkers but i still feel it's hard to justify getting rid of 24" 2 shots for plaguemarines, especially since they have movement 5 and no chance at doubling any of their phases.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Makes melee Plague Marines more appealing as you said, BUT without two base attacks to work with in the first place they'll still be a bad choice to do so.
It also gave World Eaters 6-7th Rage for all intents and purposes.
Plague Marines can get a second attack if they take 2 melee weapons already, so this would be a 3rd.
I don't think it really helps berzerkers all that much as that tended to overkill in melee anyway. They needed a defense boost.
Which they give up ALL shooting to do. Even Berserker Marines are more snooty than melee Plague Marines.
I mean you can go tank Hunting now with Berzerkers but i still feel it's hard to justify getting rid of 24" 2 shots for plaguemarines, especially since they have movement 5 and no chance at doubling any of their phases.
They were always supposed to be up close and personal and ALWAYS had a way to show an extra attack, whether they had just two melee weapons or True Grit or having Vet stats. GW took all that away.
Wew Chaos melee units like possessed and 'zerkers just got tastier.
It'd certainly be nice to see if this is the boost our fast attack choices needed- raptors & warp talons- to be a stronger disruption/harass unit that can be usable.
This rule would apply to daemon princes too wouldn't it?
That's my guess since Bolter Discipline applied to all HERETIC ASTARTES and Angels of Death is supposedly wrapping that, Shock Assault, and ATSKNF all into one rule.
slave.entity wrote: This rule would apply to daemon princes too wouldn't it?
Hope so, flawless host lords can become even more horrendously killy. I'm really into this giving noise marines essentially 3 attacks base without chainswords, they feel like they're becoming more generalist without losing out on anything.
Non WE possessed getting d3+1 attacks is also big for me. love those guys
WinterLantern wrote: Wew Chaos melee units like possessed and 'zerkers just got tastier.
It'd certainly be nice to see if this is the boost our fast attack choices needed- raptors & warp talons- to be a stronger disruption/harass unit that can be usable.
I wonder if this will affect Daemon princes
I seriously doubt possesed get any better, the pricetag on one of them is still horrendus.
Zerkers on the other hand, especially in legions that can have warptime sorcerers and movement shenanigans.
Raptors might get usefull enough with 3 attacks on a charge now? (WE Raptors now have 4 so i'd add a maybee there)
For termites it's nice but so long the general terminators can't get additional attacks through other weapons i doubt they'd be good enough for melee duty. Also they profit waaaay more from Bolter discipline.
Red Corsair bikers now got a bit more interesting with 3 attacks aswell.
WinterLantern wrote: Wew Chaos melee units like possessed and 'zerkers just got tastier.
It'd certainly be nice to see if this is the boost our fast attack choices needed- raptors & warp talons- to be a stronger disruption/harass unit that can be usable.
I wonder if this will affect Daemon princes
I seriously doubt possesed get any better, the pricetag on one of them is still horrendus.
Zerkers on the other hand, especially in legions that can have warptime sorcerers and movement shenanigans.
Raptors might get usefull enough with 3 attacks on a charge now? (WE Raptors now have 4 so i'd add a maybee there)
For termites it's nice but so long the general terminators can't get additional attacks through other weapons i doubt they'd be good enough for melee duty. Also they profit waaaay more from Bolter discipline.
Red Corsair bikers now got a bit more interesting with 3 attacks aswell.
Stacks with never born for d3+2 attacks each on possessed. Black legion could quad mark them so they fight twice and wracked up nurgle kills for tallying man
WinterLantern wrote: Wew Chaos melee units like possessed and 'zerkers just got tastier.
It'd certainly be nice to see if this is the boost our fast attack choices needed- raptors & warp talons- to be a stronger disruption/harass unit that can be usable.
I wonder if this will affect Daemon princes
I seriously doubt possesed get any better, the pricetag on one of them is still horrendus.
Zerkers on the other hand, especially in legions that can have warptime sorcerers and movement shenanigans.
Raptors might get usefull enough with 3 attacks on a charge now? (WE Raptors now have 4 so i'd add a maybee there)
For termites it's nice but so long the general terminators can't get additional attacks through other weapons i doubt they'd be good enough for melee duty. Also they profit waaaay more from Bolter discipline.
Red Corsair bikers now got a bit more interesting with 3 attacks aswell.
Stacks with never born for d3+2 attacks each on possessed. Black legion could quad mark them so they fight twice and wracked up nurgle kills for tallying man
Which is still overpriced, still annoying unit to field, you are forced into BL which is a bad legion. And the potential buffability comes at a heavy pricetag, especially in regards to oppurtunity cost.
WinterLantern wrote: Wew Chaos melee units like possessed and 'zerkers just got tastier.
It'd certainly be nice to see if this is the boost our fast attack choices needed- raptors & warp talons- to be a stronger disruption/harass unit that can be usable.
I wonder if this will affect Daemon princes
I seriously doubt possesed get any better, the pricetag on one of them is still horrendus.
Zerkers on the other hand, especially in legions that can have warptime sorcerers and movement shenanigans.
Raptors might get usefull enough with 3 attacks on a charge now? (WE Raptors now have 4 so i'd add a maybee there)
For termites it's nice but so long the general terminators can't get additional attacks through other weapons i doubt they'd be good enough for melee duty. Also they profit waaaay more from Bolter discipline.
Red Corsair bikers now got a bit more interesting with 3 attacks aswell.
Stacks with never born for d3+2 attacks each on possessed. Black legion could quad mark them so they fight twice and wracked up nurgle kills for tallying man
Which is still overpriced, still annoying unit to field, you are forced into BL which is a bad legion. And the potential buffability comes at a heavy pricetag, especially in regards to oppurtunity cost.
On further thoughts this might work better with death guard or alpha legion.
Alpha legion just needs to hide them on turn 1 and get a -2 to hit going on.
Death guard can just cloud of flies them and keep them hidden behind plague bearers. Death guard would lose access to never born but could stack buffs with deamons. Virulent blessings blades of putrefaction and veterans long war would hit plenty hard
Our fighty units just got an unequivocal bump. +1A when charging or charged is solid. If your robust (through endurance or numbers) shock unit manages to prevent fallbacks, then any counter charge unit your opponent throws in makes them angrier.
Our Heretac screens just got a little more resilient against being bullied.
Raptors were not leafblowers and this doesn’t change that. But if you’re taking a five-man Raptor gun squad, it can credibly bully modest objective campers. Warptalons were not leafblowers, except maaaybe with a niche Daemonkin list with a lot of moving parts, but if you’re taking them in the Host Raptorial niche, they’re probably going to be effective bullies of whatever unit’s Overwatch you’re shutting down. Possessed were not leafblowers. Now... they could get there, with enough moving parts and ideal victims. A DG horde of them in a Nurgle Daemonkin list could potentially make a right mess.
In our metagames, we’re going to lose models faster to other Astartes. Smash captains are now even more dangerous. Intercessors might be a tricky matchup if each side’s heavy hitters burn out and it comes down to the poor bloody infantry.
slave.entity wrote: Then again, CSM don't get ATSKNF so maybe their version of Angels of Death will be different from the loyalist one.
There’s no indication we’ll get AoD equivalent. WC article says we’re getting Shock Assault, and loyalists are getting ATSKNF, BD, and the new SA compiled together under AoD.
DG would bring 10x blightlords and 20x possessed, both of which benefit a lot from shock assault. Probably heavy support from Plagueburst crawlers too.
Red Corsairs would bring berzerkers in rhinos and MSU reaper squads for chaff clearing and cheap CP.
Both sides could bring a bunch of characters and armored heavy support. Dark Hereticus Psykers from the CSM side can still buff the DG units, but not vice versa. DG would want a caster or two for buffing the possessed and/or the blightlords.
The idea would be that on turn 1, you present 0 soft targets. Infantry is either in a rhino or screened by them or in reserve. Everything else is t8 armor. You spend your turn 1 moving up. Shield the possessed with Cloud of Flies. Clear screens with shooting from heavy support. Turn 2 you will be in charge range vs most types of enemies, especially with warp time on the possessed and advance+charge on the berzerkers. Blightlords deepstrike and melt something with combi-plasma. They get cloud of flies now that the possessed are going into melee.
This probably won't be a tournament winning list, but it would be a different sort of playstyle from what people are used to, and quite hard to kill. Berzerkers, Possessed, and blightlords are all happy to be in melee with pretty much anything else in the game. And you'll probably have some Princes in there too. Melee knights might be tough.
Think it could work now? Right now I'm not clear on if DG can use the MoP. It appears they can't use the Daemonkin specialist detachment?
DG would bring 10x blightlords and 20x possessed, both of which benefit a lot from shock assault. Probably heavy support from Plagueburst crawlers too.
Red Corsairs would bring berzerkers in rhinos and MSU reaper squads for chaff clearing and cheap CP.
Both sides could bring a bunch of characters and armored heavy support. Dark Hereticus Psykers from the CSM side can still buff the DG units, but not vice versa. DG would want a caster or two for buffing the possessed and/or the blightlords.
The idea would be that on turn 1, you present 0 soft targets. Infantry is either in a rhino or screened by them or in reserve. Everything else is t8 armor. You spend your turn 1 moving up. Shield the possessed with Cloud of Flies. Clear screens with shooting from heavy support. Turn 2 you will be in charge range vs most types of enemies, especially with warp time on the possessed and advance+charge on the berzerkers. Blightlords deepstrike and melt something with combi-plasma. They get cloud of flies now that the possessed are going into melee.
This probably won't be a tournament winning list, but it would be a different sort of playstyle from what people are used to, and quite hard to kill. Berzerkers, Possessed, and blightlords are all happy to be in melee with pretty much anything else in the game. And you'll probably have some Princes in there too. Melee knights might be tough.
Think it could work now? Right now I'm not clear on if DG can use the MoP. It appears they can't use the Daemonkin specialist detachment?
Uhh how much heavy armour do you think you can fit in a list like this? 10 blightlords and 20 possessed is over 800 points without character support. And you can say goodbye to your 400 point unit of Possessed if you don't get T1 to activate Cloud of Flies.
DG would bring 10x blightlords and 20x possessed, both of which benefit a lot from shock assault. Probably heavy support from Plagueburst crawlers too.
Red Corsairs would bring berzerkers in rhinos and MSU reaper squads for chaff clearing and cheap CP.
Both sides could bring a bunch of characters and armored heavy support. Dark Hereticus Psykers from the CSM side can still buff the DG units, but not vice versa. DG would want a caster or two for buffing the possessed and/or the blightlords.
The idea would be that on turn 1, you present 0 soft targets. Infantry is either in a rhino or screened by them or in reserve. Everything else is t8 armor. You spend your turn 1 moving up. Shield the possessed with Cloud of Flies. Clear screens with shooting from heavy support. Turn 2 you will be in charge range vs most types of enemies, especially with warp time on the possessed and advance+charge on the berzerkers. Blightlords deepstrike and melt something with combi-plasma. They get cloud of flies now that the possessed are going into melee.
This probably won't be a tournament winning list, but it would be a different sort of playstyle from what people are used to, and quite hard to kill. Berzerkers, Possessed, and blightlords are all happy to be in melee with pretty much anything else in the game. And you'll probably have some Princes in there too. Melee knights might be tough.
Think it could work now? Right now I'm not clear on if DG can use the MoP. It appears they can't use the Daemonkin specialist detachment?
Uhh how much heavy armour do you think you can fit in a list like this? 10 blightlords and 20 possessed is over 800 points without character support. And you can say goodbye to your 400 point unit of Possessed if you don't get T1 to activate Cloud of Flies.
You're right, I was looking at the numbers and you can probably do either the blightlords or the 20 possessed, which is okay since you have limited defensive buffs anyway.
As for turn 1, if you have some tanks or decent terrain you'd try to keep the possessed out of line of sight of things that can hurt them badly.
I really love Possessed but I'm still not convinced they are worthwhile. They aren't strong enough defensively unfortunately.
Blightlords on the other hand are very good and this rule makes them even better.
As for the rest of your list concept I think it can work but you want to be careful about overinvesting in melee. It makes you really vulnerable to flyers and other fast moving / kitey lists like DE venoms etc. One great tool we now have for that is a dual RFBC knight with the Helm so think about taking that as your T8 armor.
So I tend to think this makes some of the already strongest units even stronger. Tzaangors and cultists probably won't get it. Almost certainly all normal powered armor dudes will. I think much beyond that (dreads, vehicles, daemon engines....the Kytan....) is speculation. I would think prooobably daemon princes/lords/sorcs/discos will also get it. Obviously chain caps, lord discos and princes will all benefit quite a bit. They tend to go against hard or numerous targets and don't risk overkill quite as much as khorne berserkers. It'll be a nice boost to daemon engines if they do get it, same for helbrutes, though I'm not sure either will benefit enough for you to want to use them (...though man they keep buffing brutes). Good all around there.
I think the more interesting things to look at, however, is less how things which are already good will get better but more how things which are sitting just outside of decent might get to "usable".
Looking at that, I think bikes might actually be the big winners there. Raptors/warp talons are really finicky to use. Bikes, however, keep feeling like they are just a few inches from usable in the right list. Bare bones (or possibly flamer-equipped) small units of bikers might reach a tipping point. Unlike berserkers, who really don't need to kill any better, they are fast and modestly tough. Their big downside is lack of sufficient killing power. Red Corsairs provide an excellent trait for them, as does Flawless Host. As a harassment unit, they could find some much stronger use as this increases their melee capacity by probably about 50%~ or so.
It'll also be interesting to see the helbrute/daemon engine question answered. If Kytans can use it, they'll probably be back to being on par with chaos knights. The others will continue to be difficult to compete with lord discos, though.
I know the new rule makes blights even better, but for those who don't play DG - it also seems to make the cheap 29ppm CSM terminators a little more interesting. It's a shame they don't get chainswords really.
I don't think daemon engines of any type will get it as they aren't marines. But Helbrutes and Princes ought to.
Niiru wrote: I know the new rule makes blights even better, but for those who don't play DG - it also seems to make the cheap 29ppm CSM terminators a little more interesting. It's a shame they don't get chainswords really.
It gives them 50% more attacks, which makes it more worthwhile to give them better weapons. I ran the numbers on them awhile back and essentially concluded that they were barely not worth it in melee. I'd guess that something like 5x terminators with a chainfist, 2x power axe, 2xchain axe, and 2x combi plasma will now be worth considering as a pressure unit.
Gidun wrote: Been reading through the space marine chapter tactics and it looks like we'll never get rid of our eternal SM -1 problem.
I don't think the traits are all that bad and we get whatever the plus 1 attack rule is called too. It's just the fact they get chapter tactics on everything, vehicles with +1 to hit and fnp is fairly grim!!
I'm going to assume that Chaos will also get its Legion Traits redone at some point. Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors are already mirrors of their counterparts.
The change to RavenGuard/Alpha Legion makes them even more durable in cover, but is a downgrade for units not in cover compared to before.
The extra bolt hits on 6's won't benefit IWs anywhere near as much as Fists as we just have far fewer bolt weapons, and don't have primaris bolt weapons of course. I hope they get something slightly different.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: I'm going to assume that Chaos will also get its Legion Traits redone at some point. Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors are already mirrors of their counterparts.
The change to RavenGuard/Alpha Legion makes them even more durable in cover, but is a downgrade for units not in cover compared to before.
The extra bolt hits on 6's won't benefit IWs anywhere near as much as Fists as we just have far fewer bolt weapons, and don't have primaris bolt weapons of course. I hope they get something slightly different.
Yeah, it would be weird if Chaos chapter tactics went untouched during all this. The Community post mentioned Chaos getting the new rule in a similar update so here is hoping the chapter tactics land soonish.
I am excited that Primaris and Space Marines are looking to be tougher on the table top (with a few obvious exceptions, they needed it) but I just can't understand why they even bothered with that CSM codex 2.0 at this rate. Just drop it after the big SM push and give us a book that will actually be useful for a little while. Just seems like a confusing roll out plan with big changes like this coming down the pipe.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: I'm going to assume that Chaos will also get its Legion Traits redone at some point. Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors are already mirrors of their counterparts.
The change to RavenGuard/Alpha Legion makes them even more durable in cover, but is a downgrade for units not in cover compared to before.
The extra bolt hits on 6's won't benefit IWs anywhere near as much as Fists as we just have far fewer bolt weapons, and don't have primaris bolt weapons of course. I hope they get something slightly different.
The addition to armor is almost mathematically the same, and the vehicles get it in addition. It's more a sidegrade if anything just because of that.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: I'm going to assume that Chaos will also get its Legion Traits redone at some point. Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors are already mirrors of their counterparts.
The change to RavenGuard/Alpha Legion makes them even more durable in cover, but is a downgrade for units not in cover compared to before.
The extra bolt hits on 6's won't benefit IWs anywhere near as much as Fists as we just have far fewer bolt weapons, and don't have primaris bolt weapons of course. I hope they get something slightly different.
The addition to armor is almost mathematically the same, and the vehicles get it in addition. It's more a sidegrade if anything just because of that.
I am wondering how they pull word Bearers out of the dirt, also the renegade order traits really don't work with some of the vehicles.
Rather have seen them go with the IG way where some effects changed if a unit was a vehicle instead.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am excited that Primaris and Space Marines are looking to be tougher on the table top (with a few obvious exceptions, they needed it) but I just can't understand why they even bothered with that CSM codex 2.0 at this rate. Just drop it after the big SM push and give us a book that will actually be useful for a little while. Just seems like a confusing roll out plan with big changes like this coming down the pipe.
Because nickle and diming is fun?
You all should remember that this is still the same company as before, exception now it got a decent PR Management
Can’t wait for a patch enabling my Land Raiders to reroll Morale checks!
Snark aside, I guess Word Bearers will get an enhanced trait that recalls the old crusaders ability? Either cloning the BT charge reroll (in which case, Lorgarian icons of wrath and Khorne Daemonkin will be redundant), or bonuses to advance moves (in which case, Lorgarian Nurgle and Slaanesh Daemonkin will become stronger)
Not as funky as tanks always being in cover, or able to fall back and shoot, but still, it’d be nice to have.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: I'm going to assume that Chaos will also get its Legion Traits redone at some point. Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors are already mirrors of their counterparts.
The change to RavenGuard/Alpha Legion makes them even more durable in cover, but is a downgrade for units not in cover compared to before.
The extra bolt hits on 6's won't benefit IWs anywhere near as much as Fists as we just have far fewer bolt weapons, and don't have primaris bolt weapons of course. I hope they get something slightly different.
The addition to armor is almost mathematically the same, and the vehicles get it in addition. It's more a sidegrade if anything just because of that.
I am wondering how they pull word Bearers out of the dirt, also the renegade order traits really don't work with some of the vehicles.
Rather have seen them go with the IG way where some effects changed if a unit was a vehicle instead.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am excited that Primaris and Space Marines are looking to be tougher on the table top (with a few obvious exceptions, they needed it) but I just can't understand why they even bothered with that CSM codex 2.0 at this rate. Just drop it after the big SM push and give us a book that will actually be useful for a little while. Just seems like a confusing roll out plan with big changes like this coming down the pipe.
Because nickle and diming is fun?
You all should remember that this is still the same company as before, exception now it got a decent PR Management
Word Bearers are super crusadey. Advance + Charge is fine for them. Screw Red Corsairs (rules wise).
I just learnt about the upgrades to space marines. Actually has me seriously considering giving up this hobby.
Chaos -just- had an update, so we won't be getting any of these changes until 2021 at the earliest (if at all, which is another subject for debate). So we have at least 2 years of being significantly subservient to our loyalist counterparts.
Basically the only option now is to either play DG/TS soup and cheese the hell out of the game, or play DG/TS soup AND forgeworld and cheese the hell out of the game.
I honestly would have preferred not getting vigilus and the CSM 2.0 when we did, as these legion trait upgrades are so much more than anything we received.
Niiru wrote: I just learnt about the upgrades to space marines. Actually has me seriously considering giving up this hobby.
Chaos -just- had an update, so we won't be getting any of these changes until 2021 at the earliest (if at all, which is another subject for debate). So we have at least 2 years of being significantly subservient to our loyalist counterparts.
Basically the only option now is to either play DG/TS soup and cheese the hell out of the game, or play DG/TS soup AND forgeworld and cheese the hell out of the game.
I honestly would have preferred not getting vigilus and the CSM 2.0 when we did, as these legion trait upgrades are so much more than anything we received.
I'm gonna defend GW (which doesn't happen, really) and say that we can probably expect updates sooner than you'd think.
Niiru wrote: I just learnt about the upgrades to space marines. Actually has me seriously considering giving up this hobby.
Chaos -just- had an update, so we won't be getting any of these changes until 2021 at the earliest (if at all, which is another subject for debate). So we have at least 2 years of being significantly subservient to our loyalist counterparts.
Basically the only option now is to either play DG/TS soup and cheese the hell out of the game, or play DG/TS soup AND forgeworld and cheese the hell out of the game.
I honestly would have preferred not getting vigilus and the CSM 2.0 when we did, as these legion trait upgrades are so much more than anything we received.
I'm gonna defend GW (which doesn't happen, really) and say that we can probably expect updates sooner than you'd think.
Yeah, I agree here. I wouldn't be surprised to hear about equivalent Chaos Patches before the month is out (similar to how they originally did Chaos Knights). Overall I think this is looking positive for anyone who plays marines, regardless of preferred heresy levels, I am just a little annoyed/confused at how they did it is all. This is the sort of treatment they should have saved for CSM codex 2.0 and if they wanted their emperor's fancy lads to get it first, just hold off on our book and tell people to just buy Vigilus Ablaze.
Niiru wrote: I just learnt about the upgrades to space marines. Actually has me seriously considering giving up this hobby.
Chaos -just- had an update, so we won't be getting any of these changes until 2021 at the earliest (if at all, which is another subject for debate). So we have at least 2 years of being significantly subservient to our loyalist counterparts.
Basically the only option now is to either play DG/TS soup and cheese the hell out of the game, or play DG/TS soup AND forgeworld and cheese the hell out of the game.
I honestly would have preferred not getting vigilus and the CSM 2.0 when we did, as these legion trait upgrades are so much more than anything we received.
I'm gonna defend GW (which doesn't happen, really) and say that we can probably expect updates sooner than you'd think.
I know they already backpedalled by giving Chaos the 'shock assault' rules as a bonus. I'd be the first person to admit I was wrong if they turned around and threw a bunch more upgrades at us.
However it just seems so unlikely, considering we literally -just- got a new book.
Yeah, I agree here. I wouldn't be surprised to hear about equivalent Chaos Patches before the month is out (similar to how they originally did Chaos Knights). Overall I think this is looking positive for anyone who plays marines, regardless of preferred heresy levels, I am just a little annoyed/confused at how they did it is all. This is the sort of treatment they should have saved for CSM codex 2.0 and if they wanted their emperor's fancy lads to get it first, just hold off on our book and tell people to just buy Vigilus Ablaze.
Got to agree here. I mean I think a lot of people skipped buying CSM 2.0 because it basically had nothing new in it apart from an update for terminator prices. And dropping 3ppm isn't really a reason to buy a whole book.
If they had waited, given us the full upgrade package, and released a full Chaos Updated Codex 2.0 Supreme! then a LOT more people would have bought it.
So if they were going to do it, they'd have done it in a way that would have gotten them more money. As it stands, the way to make money is to wait 2 years and release it in Chaos 3.0.
Honestly, I think GW’s rules publishing pipeline flows extremely fast and there’s probably little room to adjust course and juggle schedules. They’re basically falling over themselves to get every supported range a Codex or Battletome, and also KT or Warcry rules, and also maintain live FAQs, and also WD stuff, and so on
Space Wolves got their Warlord Traits sorted pretty quick when they were noticed after the deadline, I’m sure we’ll get some parity with loyalists before our third Codex
I wouldn't mind our traits staying bad if we got a proper Mark system like the 3.5 codex instead. I don't mind if Chaos is made better in some other way than Loyalists. If they want to say that loyalists have more buffs from codex doctrine and chaos has more buffs from warp stuff that's fine. I just want to be able to field Chaos Marines and have them be flavorful and work.
Would also love to see bonuses for monogod and/or mono legion armies come back. Give a bunch of extra CP if all detachments are from the same Legion or something.
This bodes well for CSM I think. +1 attack and atsknf is a significant boost. Heres hoping we get the legion traits restriction lifted.. maybe even get some new better traits. Hope alpha legion doesn't get the RG treatment but it kinda feels like they will.
dominuschao wrote: This bodes well for CSM I think. +1 attack and atsknf is a significant boost. Heres hoping we get the legion traits restriction lifted.. maybe even get some new better traits. Hope alpha legion doesn't get the RG treatment but it kinda feels like they will.
Have they said Chaos are getting atsknf? I'm pretty sure we are only getting the shock assault part of the rule, and not the other bits. Unless there's been a statement to the contrary.
Otherwise what would be the point of word bearers?
dominuschao wrote: This bodes well for CSM I think. +1 attack and atsknf is a significant boost. Heres hoping we get the legion traits restriction lifted.. maybe even get some new better traits. Hope alpha legion doesn't get the RG treatment but it kinda feels like they will.
Have they said Chaos are getting atsknf? I'm pretty sure we are only getting the shock assault part of the rule, and not the other bits. Unless there's been a statement to the contrary.
Otherwise what would be the point of word bearers?
Correct. We already have Bolter Discipline, and we're getting Shock Assault. No ATSKNF.
dominuschao wrote: This bodes well for CSM I think. +1 attack and atsknf is a significant boost. Heres hoping we get the legion traits restriction lifted.. maybe even get some new better traits. Hope alpha legion doesn't get the RG treatment but it kinda feels like they will.
Have they said Chaos are getting atsknf? I'm pretty sure we are only getting the shock assault part of the rule, and not the other bits. Unless there's been a statement to the contrary.
Otherwise what would be the point of word bearers?
No I think you're right, just +1 attack. We get dttfe rather than atsknf. Which is generally better vs imperium and useless against anything else.
One sneaky boost we'll get is that even more people will be playing imperium (especially with the Asuryiani soup nerfs), so dttfe will be more useful at tournaments etc.
dominuschao wrote: This bodes well for CSM I think. +1 attack and atsknf is a significant boost. Heres hoping we get the legion traits restriction lifted.. maybe even get some new better traits. Hope alpha legion doesn't get the RG treatment but it kinda feels like they will.
"If you’re a fan of the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Deathwatch, don’t worry – you can look forward to official rules updates coming soon via free PDF download. And remember, you Heretic Astartes players out there will also be gaining Shock Assault for your units in a similar update!"
Sure sounds like Chaos gets Shock Assault while Loyalists get that plus Chapter Tactics for every model in their army. If correct, the benefits for CSM are heavily outweighed by improvements to loyalists.
I recently played against a 3 Repulsor list. My guys did 3 wounds to one before they destroyed a Chaos Lord, a Sorcerer, a Bloodmaster, a Deredeo, 2x20 Cultists and 5x CSMs in a single turn. It's already hard to deal with those things, imagine them with Chapter Tactics.
Feels like we're backtracking towards game-breaking imbalances.
Um...3 repulsors cost 900 points; I'm guessing they probably didn't act without support either, so bare minimum over 1000. You're saying they destroyed something like 500 points, 3 of which were characters and poorly positioned by the sound of it. That's not particularly broken. A double gat/ironstorm knight could kill 20~ intersessors with trail of destruction before it got chapter tactics; that's a 500 point model killing around 400 points of dudes (if they were anything but naked, 350 otherwise), a much better exchange.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I find it annoying that it seems like they had a bunch of space marine stuff cooking and decided to hold off on it until the imperium release. Now we have to see how much of it gets translated over to chaos as well. i.e. Are chaos tactics going to shift to vehicles as well, will they be updated to mimic their mirrors in the imperium, will we also get to have successor-esc things, etc.
I'm going to guess it'll be 50-50 on all of them. But if there is no winning for GW in this. If chaos got everything first, imperium (which is the bigger group) would have whined, if chaos got everything second, chaos would have whined. As it is chaos got some very cool stuff, now imperium is. So it's kind of a divided approach.
drakerocket wrote: Um...3 repulsors cost 900 points; I'm guessing they probably didn't act without support either, so bare minimum over 1000. You're saying they destroyed something like 500 points, 3 of which were characters and poorly positioned by the sound of it. That's not particularly broken. A double gat/ironstorm knight could kill 20~ intersessors with trail of destruction before it got chapter tactics; that's a 500 point model killing around 400 points of dudes (if they were anything but naked, 350 otherwise), a much better exchange.
The 40 Cultists and 5 CSMs - with a Deredeo bringing up the rear - seemed like a reasonable screen for the Chainlord, JP Sorcerer and Bloodmaster. They cost more than you estimated.
But that's not the point. CSMs don't have anything comparable to a Repulsor at 300 points. Now GW is buffing it through Expanded Chapter Tactics.
Feels like we're seeing heavy-handed power creep in favor of Loyalists.
Knights are irrelevant. They aren't in the CSM Codex and don't do much Loyalists can't do.
dominuschao wrote: This bodes well for CSM I think. +1 attack and atsknf is a significant boost. Heres hoping we get the legion traits restriction lifted.. maybe even get some new better traits. Hope alpha legion doesn't get the RG treatment but it kinda feels like they will.
"If you’re a fan of the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Deathwatch, don’t worry – you can look forward to official rules updates coming soon via free PDF download. And remember, you Heretic Astartes players out there will also be gaining Shock Assault for your units in a similar update!"
Sure sounds like Chaos gets Shock Assault while Loyalists get that plus Chapter Tactics for every model in their army. If correct, the benefits for CSM are heavily outweighed by improvements to loyalists.
I recently played against a 3 Repulsor list. My guys did 3 wounds to one before they destroyed a Chaos Lord, a Sorcerer, a Bloodmaster, a Deredeo, 2x20 Cultists and 5x CSMs in a single turn. It's already hard to deal with those things, imagine them with Chapter Tactics.
Feels like we're backtracking towards game-breaking imbalances.
It's funny, when I pointed the lack out and wondered why we would get codex 2.0 which really is 1.1 considering content i got shouted down
drakerocket wrote: Um...3 repulsors cost 900 points; I'm guessing they probably didn't act without support either, so bare minimum over 1000. You're saying they destroyed something like 500 points, 3 of which were characters and poorly positioned by the sound of it. That's not particularly broken. A double gat/ironstorm knight could kill 20~ intersessors with trail of destruction before it got chapter tactics; that's a 500 point model killing around 400 points of dudes (if they were anything but naked, 350 otherwise), a much better exchange.
The 40 Cultists and 5 CSMs - with a Deredeo bringing up the rear - seemed like a reasonable screen for the Chainlord, JP Sorcerer and Bloodmaster. They cost more than you estimated.
But that's not the point. CSMs don't have anything comparable to a Repulsor at 300 points. Now GW is buffing it through Expanded Chapter Tactics.
Feels like we're seeing heavy-handed power creep in favor of Loyalists.
Knights are irrelevant. They aren't in the CSM Codex and don't do much Loyalists can't do.
You play the game wrong.
Soup is not mandatory mandatory if you get my meaning.
And I bet that the legion and warband additions will also come to us.
Further bloating the game. And further nickle and diming us.
This is a tactics thread not a whinge about GW thread so I suggest anyone who is interested in pursuing that line of discussion further go and do it somewhere else.
As for dealing with Repulsors I don't think it's that big a deal. They don't have invulns and are quite expensive. Levis and Deredeos should be able to deal with them fairly easily.
saint_red wrote: This is a tactics thread not a whinge about GW thread so I suggest anyone who is interested in pursuing that line of discussion further go and do it somewhere else.
As for dealing with Repulsors I don't think it's that big a deal. They don't have invulns and are quite expensive. Levis and Deredeos should be able to deal with them fairly easily.
Bunch of Lascannons aswell or LoD in melee etc.
Altough ranged solutions are pretty iffy without fw due to beeing tied to rather squishy and expensive units.
What's a good way to deal with Eldar as CSM? My opponents bringing a bunch of dark reapers, hemlocks, guardians and wave serpents, along with a load of bikes and war walkers. Do we have any silver bullets?
saint_red wrote: This is a tactics thread not a whinge about GW thread so I suggest anyone who is interested in pursuing that line of discussion further go and do it somewhere else.
As for dealing with Repulsors I don't think it's that big a deal. They don't have invulns and are quite expensive. Levis and Deredeos should be able to deal with them fairly easily.
Levis and Deredeos being forgeworld units, and not actually in the Chaos Codex.
Which is fine, but when you start bringing a 50% forgeworld army to a friendly, you tend to feel like 'that guy'.
Havocs and helbrutes would do the trick... probably. You'd need a lot of them though, and they ain't -that- good.
vaklor4 wrote: What's a good way to deal with Eldar as CSM? My opponents bringing a bunch of dark reapers, hemlocks, guardians and wave serpents, along with a load of bikes and war walkers. Do we have any silver bullets?
Flying mele units are great for hemlocks, like daemon princes and the chain lord. Reapers are fairly easy to deal with but you have to beware of the forwarned stratergem for dropping in oblits or plasma termies. If you are able to deepstrike out of LoS (to avoid forwarned) warp talons in the host raptorial detachment will blend the dark reapers.
You could try alpha legion MOS reaper chaincannon havocks, scout move, warptime, prescience, VotLW and endless Cacophony will kill all the reapers there. You have to pop the wave sepents too but remember to keep havocs out of LoS until they have chance to unleash on the dark reapers.
Finally if you can swamp the board and surround the wave serpents you can beat them easily as they can't disembark. So again go AL for scout move, move and warptime 30 cultists. Charge and tie up wave serpents with an adverage charge range of 28" plus pile ins and consolidates.
You want to avoid big points units like Lord of Skulls, Kytans or even big blobs of possessed as eldar specialise in destroying one unit with doom/jinx.
You also need to make sure you're playing with enough LOS blocking terrain as dark reapers without anywhere to hide isn't great.
Triple repulsors can be intimidating if you are not expecting it. First question is what is your legion?
Oblitirators are a perfect solution to your repulsar problem. Deep strike, blow one away (or do as much dmg as possible), then slaanesh strat to shoot another one. They are probably going to die after that but 345 pts to kill 600 is a good trade.
T1 your focus would have to be on chaff clearing, which 5 man marine squads with chaincannons can do well. 3 man biker teams, bare minimum, are also a cheap and effective way at clearing chaff at 69 pts for 14 boltgun shots (you are giving the champion a free bolter right?) at 24" range plus 14" movement, i find all my lists start with 3 squads of these guys.
Then you can also do the trip predators for 390 (though i always like heavy bolters on them as well for 450) or trip hellbrutes with laz/missiles (360 pts are not bad, but can die easy... alpha legion helps here). Or just more oblits lol.
saint_red wrote: This is a tactics thread not a whinge about GW thread so I suggest anyone who is interested in pursuing that line of discussion further go and do it somewhere else.
As for dealing with Repulsors I don't think it's that big a deal. They don't have invulns and are quite expensive. Levis and Deredeos should be able to deal with them fairly easily.
Levis and Deredeos being forgeworld units, and not actually in the Chaos Codex.
Which is fine, but when you start bringing a 50% forgeworld army to a friendly, you tend to feel like 'that guy'.
Havocs and helbrutes would do the trick... probably. You'd need a lot of them though, and they ain't -that- good.
If were staying in-dex then honorable mention to noise marines. I swapped out las havocs for these dudes last game on a whim. Since I like my kakophoni. Turns out 8 ablatives is pretty good at keeping them firing and ignores cover missiles aren't bad. Cacophony and chaos lord nearby of course. Not heavy hitters like the las but not prone to evaporating as easy either. I used them to dig out my opponents firebase and I definitely noticed their presence in later turns.
Azuza001 wrote: Triple repulsors can be intimidating if you are not expecting it. First question is what is your legion?
Yeah, let's talk about how to fight triple Repulsors.
I don't think it's that easy for CSMs. Each one does about 40 shots around and all their guns are AP-. They can fire their main gun twice in most circumstances.
I play Black Legion and was facing Ultramarines. The rest of his army was HQs, Primaris, Devastators, a Flyer and Thunderfire Cannons.
He deployed the Repulsors last, creating a kill zone covering most of the middle of the table. He put all his bolter / stubber fire into the Cultists (who had no saves) and all the big guns into the Deredeo until the HQs were the closest units.
In terms of what I did wrong - needed longer range guns and better delivery / meatshields. A Rhino could have made a difference. It's just a deadly match up at mid-range, you have to do some damage to them before you get close.
Azuza001 wrote: Oblitirators are a perfect solution to your repulsar problem. Deep strike, blow one away (or do as much dmg as possible), then slaanesh strat to shoot another one. They are probably going to die after that but 345 pts to kill 600 is a good trade.
I had 2 Obliterators and 2x20 Bloodletter squads ready to deep strike turn 2. There just wasn't much to support them when they got there.
Azuza001 wrote: T1 your focus would have to be on chaff clearing, which 5 man marine squads with chaincannons can do well. 3 man biker teams, bare minimum, are also a cheap and effective way at clearing chaff at 69 pts for 14 boltgun shots (you are giving the champion a free bolter right?) at 24" range plus 14" movement, i find all my lists start with 3 squads of these guys.
Yeah. Was thinking MSU would have caused the Repulsors to waste shots. Thought about a Biker Lord instead of the Chainlord.
Field-testing my Khorne Daemonkin, and a rules interaction presented itself that I thought worth bringing up here:
So, DttFE extra attacks cannot themselves generate any further attacks.
Crimson Crown coverage means that rolling a 6 to wound generates an extra attack.
When you take your Khorne Daemon Astartes, and generate extra hits from DttFE, make sure to keep them in a separate pool from your other hits, because your other hits can generate extra attacks via CC but your DttFE extra hits can not.
Any extra hits generated from CC, may as well add them to the DttFE pool and then roll them all together, as both pools have the ‘cannot generate extra hits’ condition.
Bear in mind that you check the ability of a model to fight after piling in. If your first round of hits kill everything within 1” of your unit, everybody who was within 1” of an enemy model (or a friend within 1” of an enemy model) after piling in can still cash in their CC & DttFE hits against the enemy unit - even if it’s a comedically long conga line falling like dominoes after some World Eaters Warp Talons tapped their leader on the shoulder
Bit of a complicated set of moving parts, but then we don’t want to fall foul of RAW, especially if we’re in an organised setting with stakes and prizes.
For competitive players - ITC Format - when running a CSM Red Corsairs - do you give the chain cannon? On the one hand it seems silly invest in an obvious chaff unit more points, on the flip side it gives some threat potential.
lindsay40k wrote: ...even if it’s a comedically long conga line falling like dominoes after some World Eaters Warp Talons tapped their leader on the shoulder
orkswubwub wrote: For competitive players - ITC Format - when running a CSM Red Corsairs - do you give the chain cannon? On the one hand it seems silly invest in an obvious chaff unit more points, on the flip side it gives some threat potential.
CSM aren't really the chaff choice though,they are more like a car battery for CP in RC.
Imo it's worth t and in a pinch might make itself very usefull if makred slaanesh.
Niiru wrote: If you were going to stuff a nasty flamer unit into a chaos list... what unit would you use and how would you use it?
My first question is, where does your nasty flamer unit come from.
And what is your nasty Flamer?
Niiru wrote: I'm curious about taking an R&H detachment, simply because I want to add decent flamer units to my army (it fits their fluff) and Chaos dont really have any options when it comes to fire.
I know, right. You'd think they'd be the pyro kings. But nope, it's the imperials again. Go figure.
Tzeentch gets some decent option in their Flamers/Exalteds as foot-troops, but other than that everything is a fairly useless 8/9" range (even forgeworld units).
So I was considering a spearhead of Hellhounds. Complete waste of points, or worth a detachment slot?
Edit: The alternative being the Hellforged Predator with Infernal Flamestorm Cannon and a couple heavy flamers. 4d6 from a single platform is fairly nasty, but it's got the typical chaos crappy range and it's 50 points more than a hellhound.
Ahh yes.Sorry.
good question What are you considering?
Niiru wrote: I'm curious about taking an R&H detachment, simply because I want to add decent flamer units to my army (it fits their fluff) and Chaos dont really have any options when it comes to fire.
I know, right. You'd think they'd be the pyro kings. But nope, it's the imperials again. Go figure.
Tzeentch gets some decent option in their Flamers/Exalteds as foot-troops, but other than that everything is a fairly useless 8/9" range (even forgeworld units).
So I was considering a spearhead of Hellhounds. Complete waste of points, or worth a detachment slot?
Edit: The alternative being the Hellforged Predator with Infernal Flamestorm Cannon and a couple heavy flamers. 4d6 from a single platform is fairly nasty, but it's got the typical chaos crappy range and it's 50 points more than a hellhound.
Ahh yes.Sorry.
good question What are you considering?
This is from a different thread, so not really relevant here other than to confuse people. Unless you're saying that you would pick renegade hellhounds as your choice? Or a Flamestorm Predator? Why are you picking those? How would you use them?
Niiru wrote: I'm curious about taking an R&H detachment, simply because I want to add decent flamer units to my army (it fits their fluff) and Chaos dont really have any options when it comes to fire.
I know, right. You'd think they'd be the pyro kings. But nope, it's the imperials again. Go figure.
Tzeentch gets some decent option in their Flamers/Exalteds as foot-troops, but other than that everything is a fairly useless 8/9" range (even forgeworld units).
So I was considering a spearhead of Hellhounds. Complete waste of points, or worth a detachment slot?
Edit: The alternative being the Hellforged Predator with Infernal Flamestorm Cannon and a couple heavy flamers. 4d6 from a single platform is fairly nasty, but it's got the typical chaos crappy range and it's 50 points more than a hellhound.
Ahh yes.Sorry.
good question What are you considering?
This is from a different thread, so not really relevant here other than to confuse people. Unless you're saying that you would pick renegade hellhounds as your choice? Or a Flamestorm Predator? Why are you picking those? How would you use them?
None at all.
Mainline CSM don't have a flamer worth it's salt.
Atleast not one that is actually affordable.
Edit:
At most a Hellbrute with twin fists and twin addon heavy flamers.
Niiru wrote: If you were going to stuff a nasty flamer unit into a chaos list... what unit would you use and how would you use it?
First option would be a Kharybdis. Deploy it, Warptime it into the middle of the enemy army, set everything on fire. Maybe have a DA give it -1 to be hit. It’s like launching that squid boss in Super Mario Sunshine.
Second option would be Plague Marines with two of the heavy Flamer equivalent and two flails. 4D3 attacks that overflow damage is sweet. Run up in a Rhino and sit on an objective. Beg people to charge them.
Third option would be a 5D6 FW Pred. Fun to Warptime in front of a horde of like Hormagaunts. Probably overcosted.
Fourth option, Spartan with twin heavy Flamers. Have a DA give it -1 to be hit. Have fast stuff prevent it getting enveloped after you Warptime it forwards.
Fifth option, Defiler with Heavy Flamer starting next to Gnarlmaw. Warptime forwards, rub your butt on the Batmobile. If it’s DG, make it blow up in the enemy’s faces.
Sixth option, I wouldn’t put it in the list. I’d take some reinforcement points, some Tzeentch characters, and a sideboard with Flamers and some other useful things. Conjure up the Flamers if they’ll be useful, and if not then maybe some Horrors or like a Herald or two. Maybe even some Screamers to try to tag support units.
MoP can advance and super-summon. Requires a psychic test, but if there’s a melee horde coming your way with modifiers to be hit, they’re a nasty speedbump.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ...DGDE’s.
Plagueburst Crawler is ace with a pair of spitters. Gnarlmaws can enable a bunch of them to fall back and shoot with them. (Arguments for Horticulous to accompany them and drop trees & increase their damage.) Loads of T8W as well.
Bloat-drone can poo-flame from 24” away if it rolls a 6 to Advance. If you’ve got a trio of them, and a Blightbringer, that’s not actually much of a long shot. And even if you don’t make it, it’s a load of T7W that nobody wants to charge.
Both of them charge up Epidemius, which presents interesting Daemonkin options. Drop Nurglings in no-man’s land to goad unit’s forwards for a good hosing-down.
The Blightbringer can move during your movement phase to buff a large number of units. So, a DE jamboree can all hoof it forwards, full tilt, and be followed by a load of Plague Marines, Cultists, Poxwalkers, whatever. Rhinos with fighty Plague Marines rolling 2D6 to advance whilst the enemy chaff gets sprayed down? Nice.
Leviathan Dread has flamers and is competitive in almost every tournament format worth mentioning... None in the ETC lists currently at ESC that I saw but have been used effectively in the past. 2x Hellflamers and with dual butcher cannons are still likely worth their points even in a heavy anti-tank meta. Not sure if it fits the fluff but the Leviathan and PBC as noted above two quality chaos units with flamers/spitters.
A r&h hellhound with track guards is the best flaming unit for chaos (and for imperium). It always moves 12", and auto hits. Overwatch is 2D6 auto hits at 16". Threat range is 28". With HB its 113 pts.
p5freak wrote: A r&h hellhound with track guards is the best flaming unit for chaos (and for imperium). It always moves 12", and auto hits. Overwatch is 2D6 auto hits at 16". Threat range is 28". With HB its 113 pts.
Yep, that conclusion he allready had from the other thread.
I'd make a cheap R&H battalion for 170 pts and 5 CP and throw in a bunch of The hellhounds.
Ofcourse he could go for a battalion, adding in some Mortar HWT's and some Marauder snipers if he so choses.
Both offer advantages and options regular Chaos does not really have.
Little question. I'm looking for a way to make Abaddon useable in a 1k points game (my most played format) and I am thinking of deepstriking him down along with either a squad of 5 plasma terminators (probably with power fists or if points allow chainfists) or 2 oblits. Advantage of the Oblits would be that they've can be split up in 2 units of 1 if that suits the situation better and their shooting alpha strike will probably be stronger, the advantage of terminators is that they can join Abby in smashing face the next turn, especially with the coming Shock Assault rule.
The rest of the army will consist of 3x 5 CSM with a Reaper Chaincannon in each squad and a Sorcerer of Slaanesh with Jump Pack. The points that are left after that will probably go into a Forgefiend or Venomcrawler (I think my Discolord will will end up bringing the points cost to about 1025 unfortunately :( ). What would you do? Thanks!
Pandabeer wrote: Little question. I'm looking for a way to make Abaddon useable in a 1k points game (my most played format) and I am thinking of deepstriking him down along with either a squad of 5 plasma terminators (probably with power fists or if points allow chainfists) or 2 oblits. Advantage of the Oblits would be that they've can be split up in 2 units of 1 if that suits the situation better and their shooting alpha strike will probably be stronger, the advantage of terminators is that they can join Abby in smashing face the next turn, especially with the coming Shock Assault rule.
The rest of the army will consist of 3x 5 CSM with a Reaper Chaincannon in each squad and a Sorcerer of Slaanesh with Jump Pack. The points that are left after that will probably go into a Forgefiend or Venomcrawler (I think my Discolord will will end up bringing the points cost to about 1025 unfortunately :( ). What would you do? Thanks!
You got multiple options really:
You can downgrade the Terminators with regular Combibolters and use Votwl and abby with cacophony to still get a decent effect out of them. (probably replace one combi plas with a reaper ac)
You could as you said go with oblits. altough at 230 pts that would be probably half the army really that you would field.
You could say screw this and cut the reapers in favour for regular AC's and gain the 30 pts needed for the discolord. Which would give you another threat.
As someone that fields his forgefiend somewhat regularly , i''d not reccomend it under 1000 pts. Atleast not the full dakka version.
Pandabeer wrote: Little question. I'm looking for a way to make Abaddon useable in a 1k points game (my most played format) and I am thinking of deepstriking him down along with either a squad of 5 plasma terminators (probably with power fists or if points allow chainfists) or 2 oblits. Advantage of the Oblits would be that they've can be split up in 2 units of 1 if that suits the situation better and their shooting alpha strike will probably be stronger, the advantage of terminators is that they can join Abby in smashing face the next turn, especially with the coming Shock Assault rule.
The rest of the army will consist of 3x 5 CSM with a Reaper Chaincannon in each squad and a Sorcerer of Slaanesh with Jump Pack. The points that are left after that will probably go into a Forgefiend or Venomcrawler (I think my Discolord will will end up bringing the points cost to about 1025 unfortunately :( ). What would you do? Thanks!
You got multiple options really:
You can downgrade the Terminators with regular Combibolters and use Votwl and abby with cacophony to still get a decent effect out of them. (probably replace one combi plas with a reaper ac)
You could as you said go with oblits. altough at 230 pts that would be probably half the army really that you would field.
You could say screw this and cut the reapers in favour for regular AC's and gain the 30 pts needed for the discolord. Which would give you another threat.
As someone that fields his forgefiend somewhat regularly , i''d not reccomend it under 1000 pts. Atleast not the full dakka version.
The Dark Prince favors me this day because a 5 man Terminator squad with Combibolters, a Reaper Autocannon and Power fists + Discolord with Baleflamer + the rest of the list is exactly 1000 points
List is now as follows:
- 3x5 CSM with 1 Reaper Chaincannon in each squad.
- Abby
- Discolord with Baleflamer, Sightless Helm and the Indomitable warlord trait
- 5x Terminators with 4x combibolter, 1x Reaper Autocannon and 5x Power Fist
- Sorcerer of Slaanesh with JP, Smite, Warptime and Delightful Agonies.
- Everything has Mark of Slaanesh (except Abby who has all 4 by default of course).
edit: scratch the 3 combibolters from the CSM squads, that would make the full list 1006 points... the Chaos God is always in the details.
Pandabeer wrote: Little question. I'm looking for a way to make Abaddon useable in a 1k points game (my most played format) and I am thinking of deepstriking him down along with either a squad of 5 plasma terminators (probably with power fists or if points allow chainfists) or 2 oblits. Advantage of the Oblits would be that they've can be split up in 2 units of 1 if that suits the situation better and their shooting alpha strike will probably be stronger, the advantage of terminators is that they can join Abby in smashing face the next turn, especially with the coming Shock Assault rule.
The rest of the army will consist of 3x 5 CSM with a Reaper Chaincannon in each squad and a Sorcerer of Slaanesh with Jump Pack. The points that are left after that will probably go into a Forgefiend or Venomcrawler (I think my Discolord will will end up bringing the points cost to about 1025 unfortunately :( ). What would you do? Thanks!
I'd say in this sort of list you'd be much better with abandon on the board.
Deepstriking and charging is really unreliable and you'd be better just pairing him woth something that can move up the board with him like venomcrawlers or defilers and using warptime to get him up the board quicker. With Advance he'll move 19" first turn and 12" + charge second turn.
Last thing you want is to be zoned out and end up charging not much with Abandon. This way your opponent has to chew through some tough units before he can get to Abby.
Pandabeer wrote: Little question. I'm looking for a way to make Abaddon useable in a 1k points game (my most played format) and I am thinking of deepstriking him down along with either a squad of 5 plasma terminators (probably with power fists or if points allow chainfists) or 2 oblits. Advantage of the Oblits would be that they've can be split up in 2 units of 1 if that suits the situation better and their shooting alpha strike will probably be stronger, the advantage of terminators is that they can join Abby in smashing face the next turn, especially with the coming Shock Assault rule.
The rest of the army will consist of 3x 5 CSM with a Reaper Chaincannon in each squad and a Sorcerer of Slaanesh with Jump Pack. The points that are left after that will probably go into a Forgefiend or Venomcrawler (I think my Discolord will will end up bringing the points cost to about 1025 unfortunately :( ). What would you do? Thanks!
You got multiple options really:
You can downgrade the Terminators with regular Combibolters and use Votwl and abby with cacophony to still get a decent effect out of them. (probably replace one combi plas with a reaper ac)
You could as you said go with oblits. altough at 230 pts that would be probably half the army really that you would field.
You could say screw this and cut the reapers in favour for regular AC's and gain the 30 pts needed for the discolord. Which would give you another threat.
As someone that fields his forgefiend somewhat regularly , i''d not reccomend it under 1000 pts. Atleast not the full dakka version.
The Dark Prince favors me this day because a 5 man Terminator squad with Combibolters, a Reaper Autocannon and Power fists + Discolord with Baleflamer + the rest of the list is exactly 1000 points
List is now as follows:
- 3x5 CSM with 1 Reaper Chaincannon in each squad.
- Abby
- Discolord with Baleflamer, Sightless Helm and the Indomitable warlord trait
- 5x Terminators with 4x combibolter, 1x Reaper Autocannon and 5x Power Fist
- Sorcerer of Slaanesh with JP, Smite, Warptime and Delightful Agonies.
- Everything has Mark of Slaanesh (except Abby who has all 4 by default of course).
edit: scratch the 3 combibolters from the CSM squads, that would make the full list 1006 points... the Chaos God is always in the details.
I don't quite get the powerfists on the terminators.
Khorne on a throne, but Plague Marines are brutal now. 4D3A at S6 AP2 D2 with overflow, on a T5 FNP Troops unit is horrific. Blades of Putrefaction plus VotLW makes them terrifying. Anyone game for trying a horde of twenty with axes and a couple of spewers jump out of a Spartan or suchlike?
lindsay40k wrote: Khorne on a throne, but Plague Marines are brutal now. 4D3A at S6 AP2 D2 with overflow, on a T5 FNP Troops unit is horrific. Blades of Putrefaction plus VotLW makes them terrifying. Anyone game for trying a horde of twenty with axes and a couple of spewers jump out of a Spartan or suchlike?
Why is it 4D3? I only count 3D3 (assuming new +1A on charge rule)
Edit - Ignore me. They don't get +1 attack for having two weapons if one is the flail. SO you're talking about two marines giving 4 attacks.
This is what drives me up the wall with that. They kept Cultists at 5 ppm making them overcosted without their traits, yet they can /still/ use the most powerful stragem in the book even though it literally says 'veterans of the long war'. So are they, or are they not part of the ancient evil?
I feel like the decision to take away legion traits from cultists was 100% gamey, and the fluff behind it was as thin as paper.
Rant aside, do people think we'll get similar points shifts from the SM book? Apparently Tacs are going down to 12. Whats the odds that our identical unit will get a change too?
vaklor4 wrote: This is what drives me up the wall with that. They kept Cultists at 5 ppm making them overcosted without their traits, yet they can /still/ use the most powerful stragem in the book even though it literally says 'veterans of the long war'. So are they, or are they not part of the ancient evil?
I feel like the decision to take away legion traits from cultists was 100% gamey, and the fluff behind it was as thin as paper.
Rant aside, do people think we'll get similar points shifts from the SM book? Apparently Tacs are going down to 12. Whats the odds that our identical unit will get a change too?
Why should they, THEY just fixed dex 2.0 and with it all CSM are done and workmas intended.
The price is also correct due to Spike tax.
/S
i'd say probably with the FAQ/ CA 2019?
MAybee ? If we get lucky? If they maybee also update our traits i am happy.
Yeah, I could see CA 2019 being when they shift CSM down with SM prices. Not like there is even that many months left until the end of the year, meaning CA 2019 /should/ be coming at least in 2-3 months.
vaklor4 wrote: Yeah, I could see CA 2019 being when they shift CSM down with SM prices. Not like there is even that many months left until the end of the year, meaning CA 2019 /should/ be coming at least in 2-3 months.
Doesn't change the situation at all imo. 5 months ago we got dex 2.0 that fixed nothing.
SM got dex 2.0 and get a propper rework.
that is basically shwoing that GW does not care about even attempting to give everyone equal long pikes anymore.
blackmage wrote: well at least now heretic astartes will get +1 attack in charge/being charged, not bad at all
I've wondered on the limitations on this. As in, do we know if it's all "Heretic Astartes" (which is what people I know think it is), or is it going to end up getting a limit on something like <INFANTRY>?
I ask because, while it's good for Terminators (making me doubly want to figure out the best way to field a unit of termies in my list), and maybe even good for raptors and talons which is good news....
...personally I got curious about the extra S12 ap-3 D3 attack my maulerfiend would be getting. Or a helbrute. Or contemptors even. I'm sure there's other things too that wouldn't say no to an extra chance to mangle something.
For instance, this rule would mean even a helbrute with ranged weapons, ends up with the same attacks on the charge as a helbrute with 2x CCWs. Not game breaking or anything, but it's nice.
Edit: Just to say, I don't actually think Chaos will end up with all those buffs. That would actually be balancing. I suspect we'll only be allowed it on a few units. At best, it'll be everything with DTTFE, which includes princes, but I suspect they'll do something skanky like limit it to troops only or something.
How can i make a JP chaos character with chiropteran wings (CW) as resilient as possible ? The new FAQ now allows the CW to be used with warptime. Your JP character can move, advance and charge up to 48" in one turn, jumping over many, many units. Problem is he is not very tough. A tzeentch lord can get weaver of fates, which gives him a 3+ inv. A nurgle lord can get miasma of pestilence for -1 to hit. A slaanesh lord can get delightful agonies for a 5+ FNP. A BL lord can get all four marks with a stratagem for one turn, but you need a nurgle, tzeentch and slaanesh psyker to cast all those spells on him. And he cant charge after advancing.
p5freak wrote: How can i make a JP chaos character with chiropteran wings (CW) as resilient as possible ? The new FAQ now allows the CW to be used with warptime. Your JP character can move, advance and charge up to 48" in one turn, jumping over many, many units. Problem is he is not very tough. A tzeentch lord can get weaver of fates, which gives him a 3+ inv. A nurgle lord can get miasma of pestilence for -1 to hit. A slaanesh lord can get delightful agonies for a 5+ FNP. A BL lord can get all four marks with a stratagem for one turn, but you need a nurgle, tzeentch and slaanesh psyker to cast all those spells on him. And he cant charge after advancing.
My first idea would've been to give him fleahmetal armor from IW.
However, i'd still go for RC.
Then there is the trait for +1 w and something else in the main CSM book.
Alternativly you go al, use forward on him. Mark him Slaanesh for a safety net. (also Hydra blade) that wouldn't be overly expensive and still somewhat durable.
p5freak wrote: How can i make a JP chaos character with chiropteran wings (CW) as resilient as possible ? The new FAQ now allows the CW to be used with warptime. Your JP character can move, advance and charge up to 48" in one turn, jumping over many, many units. Problem is he is not very tough. A tzeentch lord can get weaver of fates, which gives him a 3+ inv. A nurgle lord can get miasma of pestilence for -1 to hit. A slaanesh lord can get delightful agonies for a 5+ FNP. A BL lord can get all four marks with a stratagem for one turn, but you need a nurgle, tzeentch and slaanesh psyker to cast all those spells on him. And he cant charge after advancing.
My first idea would've been to give him fleahmetal armor from IW.
However, i'd still go for RC.
Then there is the trait for +1 w and something else in the main CSM book.
Alternativly you go al, use forward on him. Mark him Slaanesh for a safety net. (also Hydra blade) that wouldn't be overly expensive and still somewhat durable.
Cant give him the flashmetal exoskeleton because its a relic, CW is a relic as well. Unholy fortitude is W+1, and 6+ FNP, which is better than nothing. AL isnt going to help much, because he is probably going to be behind enemy lines, within 12" of enemy models. Also warptime is only 3" range.
p5freak wrote: How can i make a JP chaos character with chiropteran wings (CW) as resilient as possible ? The new FAQ now allows the CW to be used with warptime. Your JP character can move, advance and charge up to 48" in one turn, jumping over many, many units. Problem is he is not very tough. A tzeentch lord can get weaver of fates, which gives him a 3+ inv. A nurgle lord can get miasma of pestilence for -1 to hit. A slaanesh lord can get delightful agonies for a 5+ FNP. A BL lord can get all four marks with a stratagem for one turn, but you need a nurgle, tzeentch and slaanesh psyker to cast all those spells on him. And he cant charge after advancing.
My first idea would've been to give him fleahmetal armor from IW.
However, i'd still go for RC.
Then there is the trait for +1 w and something else in the main CSM book.
Alternativly you go al, use forward on him. Mark him Slaanesh for a safety net. (also Hydra blade) that wouldn't be overly expensive and still somewhat durable.
Cant give him the flashmetal exoskeleton because its a relic, CW is a relic as well. Unholy fortitude is W+1, and 6+ FNP, which is better than nothing. AL isnt going to help much, because he is probably going to be behind enemy lines, within 12" of enemy models. Also warptime is only 3" range.
Host raptorial, i guess then a bunch of warptalons might be the best insurance really.
CW has a 50% chance of doing D3 mortal wounds. Wasting your WT, your relic and putting your warlord at risk for such an underwhelming amount of damage seems ridiculous to me.
Yeah, if you can use Warptime to throw a RC hammer Lord over a conveniently aligned enemy army before pulverising something, all well and good, but don’t go
A HR lord’s job is to ensure the Warp Talons get to where they need to go, not blast off like a glory hog
I’ve currently got a CRHR Warlord in my army because of campaign restrictions, and even throwing a Daemon Shell into the mix the only real damage he does is with his thunder hammer. As soon as my DP’s ready to enter, he is a field commander whose job is to guide WTs and then Boromir
Hey guys... looking to get back into my heretic armies after my recent ITC tournament.
I played 5 games, and in four of those games, my opponent really took advantage of the ITC ruin rule whereby units on 1st floor behind wall don't have LOS. Great for units to rack up obj points and in 2 of the games for weapons/powers that don't require LOS.
What's your favorite CSM/Demon units you'd use to "root out" entrench units in ruins like that?
I saw some discussions revolving around a hammer lord - what is the setup? (warptime thrown in I'm assuming)
What about Oblits? (expensive)
I think ya'll brand me as a heretic... but, what about Red Corsair Mutilators? (DS, then assault or if not in range move+run+assault in next turn).
Demons: only thing I can think of is large blob of 'letters or pink horrors???
Anybody thinking seriously about vindicators again if the D6 rule change transfers over to CSM?
With T8 and ability to pop smoke its tempting to advance to the middle of the board turn one and if the opponent wants to put the sort of firepower that will put it down into a 125pt model then i won't argue.
But if they don't its on average the equivalent of 3 or 4 lascannons, that's worth 100pts on it's own so 125pts seems a steal?
I tend to operate a moving castle around abaddon so i like the idea of moving up the board behind one or even two and by turn two he'll be in the vicinity of a stationary vindicator to give his rerolls.
whembly wrote: Hey guys... looking to get back into my heretic armies after my recent ITC tournament.
I played 5 games, and in four of those games, my opponent really took advantage of the ITC ruin rule whereby units on 1st floor behind wall don't have LOS. Great for units to rack up obj points and in 2 of the games for weapons/powers that don't require LOS.
What's your favorite CSM/Demon units you'd use to "root out" entrench units in ruins like that?
I saw some discussions revolving around a hammer lord - what is the setup? (warptime thrown in I'm assuming)
What about Oblits? (expensive)
I think ya'll brand me as a heretic... but, what about Red Corsair Mutilators? (DS, then assault or if not in range move+run+assault in next turn).
Demons: only thing I can think of is large blob of 'letters or pink horrors???
Anything else?
The best units for this job are hellforged scorpius and deredeos with greater havoc ml. If your not into FW then your mostly stuck with assaulting them out.. at least until you've cleared screens for DS landing zones but by then they've done their job. Single oblits can fit into tighter spaces and I've used them but they can be really swingy and then guaranteed dead.
On a friendlier note I like msu zerks. Theres just something about 4x5 zerks in rhinos thats enjoyable and they always attract attention.
saint_red wrote: CW has a 50% chance of doing D3 mortal wounds. Wasting your WT, your relic and putting your warlord at risk for such an underwhelming amount of damage seems ridiculous to me.
Its 50% chance in the psychic phase, 50% in the movement phase, and 50% in the charge phase. You can move over more than one unit with a double 15,5" move, and a 7" charge. If you survive the fight phase you can fallback over multiple units with a 12" move.
saint_red wrote: CW has a 50% chance of doing D3 mortal wounds. Wasting your WT, your relic and putting your warlord at risk for such an underwhelming amount of damage seems ridiculous to me.
Its 50% chance in the psychic phase, 50% in the movement phase, and 50% in the charge phase. You can move over more than one unit with a double 15,5" move, and a 7" charge. If you survive the fight phase you can fallback over multiple units with a 12" move.
It's just the movement and charge phases. I assume you included psychic because of warptime? Yeh, no, won't work. The rule specifies phases.
Edit: Which means it also won't work when falling back. Wrong phase.
Just take a sorcerer and smite somebody lol. We have so many better ways of dealing mortal wounds.
If you are playing a Host Raptorial with a Chaos Lord and you don't have any other good relics to choose then take CW and enjoy a few bonus MWs. Personally I think there are much better generic relics to take anyway (like Intoxicating Elixir or the Talisman) not to mention some strong legion specific options.
Abaddon303 wrote: Anybody thinking seriously about vindicators again if the D6 rule change transfers over to CSM?
With T8 and ability to pop smoke its tempting to advance to the middle of the board turn one and if the opponent wants to put the sort of firepower that will put it down into a 125pt model then i won't argue.
But if they don't its on average the equivalent of 3 or 4 lascannons, that's worth 100pts on it's own so 125pts seems a steal?
I tend to operate a moving castle around abaddon so i like the idea of moving up the board behind one or even two and by turn two he'll be in the vicinity of a stationary vindicator to give his rerolls.
I always wanted to try a linebreaker bombardment, but it never seemed worth finishing my Vindicator and buying & building another two. Honestly, when I saw the gun was D3, I never even noticed it was T8. With a Noctolith Crown able to make them harder to hurt than Knights, finishing that mothballed project and giving it a field-test is certainly a thought.
It's just the movement and charge phases. I assume you included psychic because of warptime? Yeh, no, won't work. The rule specifies phases.
Edit: Which means it also won't work when falling back. Wrong phase.
Read the recent FAQ, it works.
Q: When a rule allows a model or unit to take an action (move,
shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power)
outside of the normal turn sequence, and that rule explicitly
mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase of the
turn structure to the current one, e.g. ‘That unit can shoot as if it
were the Shooting phase’, do rules that are normally used during
that phase (in the example this would be the Shooting phase) take
effect? Is the same true of Overwatch attacks?
A: With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g.
abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would
apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking
place ‘as if it were that phase’. However, if a Stratagem
specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then
it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a
Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting
phase’ to affect a unit that is Shooting ‘as if it were
the Shooting phase’).
whembly wrote: Hey guys... looking to get back into my heretic armies after my recent ITC tournament.
I played 5 games, and in four of those games, my opponent really took advantage of the ITC ruin rule whereby units on 1st floor behind wall don't have LOS. Great for units to rack up obj points and in 2 of the games for weapons/powers that don't require LOS.
What's your favorite CSM/Demon units you'd use to "root out" entrench units in ruins like that?
I saw some discussions revolving around a hammer lord - what is the setup? (warptime thrown in I'm assuming)
What about Oblits? (expensive)
I think ya'll brand me as a heretic... but, what about Red Corsair Mutilators? (DS, then assault or if not in range move+run+assault in next turn).
Demons: only thing I can think of is large blob of 'letters or pink horrors???
Anything else?
The best units for this job are hellforged scorpius and deredeos with greater havoc ml. If your not into FW then your mostly stuck with assaulting them out.. at least until you've cleared screens for DS landing zones but by then they've done their job. Single oblits can fit into tighter spaces and I've used them but they can be really swingy and then guaranteed dead.
On a friendlier note I like msu zerks. Theres just something about 4x5 zerks in rhinos thats enjoyable and they always attract attention.
Alternately my go to is dmc tzaangors.
IF the new Shock attack rule indeed works, and you are willing to run RC and Khorne, then i'd imagine that a unit of mulitators might not be half bad.
Atm they are 35 pts right?
WRT Hammer Lord, I’ve been mucking around with Raptorial Host. It’s OK, but needs horde clearance support; chaincannons, Noise Marines, Heavy Bolter Rapiers, Pink Horrors, Bloodletters - the usual suspects.
If you’re going to use a hammer Lord and Khorne Muties, they’d be ok elements in a themed Khorne army with the aforementioned Bletters, and also Oblits and Warp Talons, and a Herald with Crimson Crown turning VotLW into a mini-EC and giving rerolls on charges.
I see Loyalists have regained Drop Pod Assault - DPs & their contents ignore Tactical Reserves restrictions. If that gets rolled out to Dreadclaws and Kharybdis, we might be looking at some new builds. Either way, we’ll need to adapt to the new threat - I expect Vanguard Veterans will be trolling us with plasma or storm bolters, for a start. Grey Hunters can efficiently get Obsec into our DZ on turn one, and Black Templars can do the same with, well, owt.
It's just the movement and charge phases. I assume you included psychic because of warptime? Yeh, no, won't work. The rule specifies phases.
Edit: Which means it also won't work when falling back. Wrong phase.
Read the recent FAQ, it works.
Q: When a rule allows a model or unit to take an action (move,
shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power)
outside of the normal turn sequence, and that rule explicitly
mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase of the
turn structure to the current one, e.g. ‘That unit can shoot as if it
were the Shooting phase’, do rules that are normally used during
that phase (in the example this would be the Shooting phase) take
effect? Is the same true of Overwatch attacks?
A: With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g.
abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would
apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking
place ‘as if it were that phase’. However, if a Stratagem
specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then
it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a
Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting
phase’ to affect a unit that is Shooting ‘as if it were
the Shooting phase’).
Interesting, then yeh Warptime works with it. Also I realise falling back does happen in the movement phase, so that works too.
Still not sure it's worth it... D3 mortal wounds maybe once or twice a turn... that's assuming your warlord doesn't get focused down early on for being in the middle of all the enemies. Maybe. Worth trying at least! Seems like there might be more reliable relics though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is the best current screen-clearing first turn unit for chaos at the moment? Chaincannon havocs? combi-chosen?
It's just the movement and charge phases. I assume you included psychic because of warptime? Yeh, no, won't work. The rule specifies phases.
Edit: Which means it also won't work when falling back. Wrong phase.
Read the recent FAQ, it works.
Q: When a rule allows a model or unit to take an action (move,
shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power)
outside of the normal turn sequence, and that rule explicitly
mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase of the
turn structure to the current one, e.g. ‘That unit can shoot as if it
were the Shooting phase’, do rules that are normally used during
that phase (in the example this would be the Shooting phase) take
effect? Is the same true of Overwatch attacks?
A: With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g.
abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would
apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking
place ‘as if it were that phase’. However, if a Stratagem
specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then
it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a
Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting
phase’ to affect a unit that is Shooting ‘as if it were
the Shooting phase’).
Interesting, then yeh Warptime works with it. Also I realise falling back does happen in the movement phase, so that works too.
Still not sure it's worth it... D3 mortal wounds maybe once or twice a turn... that's assuming your warlord doesn't get focused down early on for being in the middle of all the enemies. Maybe. Worth trying at least! Seems like there might be more reliable relics though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is the best current screen-clearing first turn unit for chaos at the moment? Chaincannon havocs? combi-chosen?
Tesla armigers are probably worth honorable mention here
It's just the movement and charge phases. I assume you included psychic because of warptime? Yeh, no, won't work. The rule specifies phases.
Edit: Which means it also won't work when falling back. Wrong phase.
Read the recent FAQ, it works.
Q: When a rule allows a model or unit to take an action (move,
shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power)
outside of the normal turn sequence, and that rule explicitly
mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase of the
turn structure to the current one, e.g. ‘That unit can shoot as if it
were the Shooting phase’, do rules that are normally used during
that phase (in the example this would be the Shooting phase) take
effect? Is the same true of Overwatch attacks?
A: With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g.
abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would
apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking
place ‘as if it were that phase’. However, if a Stratagem
specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then
it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a
Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting
phase’ to affect a unit that is Shooting ‘as if it were
the Shooting phase’).
Interesting, then yeh Warptime works with it. Also I realise falling back does happen in the movement phase, so that works too.
Still not sure it's worth it... D3 mortal wounds maybe once or twice a turn... that's assuming your warlord doesn't get focused down early on for being in the middle of all the enemies. Maybe. Worth trying at least! Seems like there might be more reliable relics though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is the best current screen-clearing first turn unit for chaos at the moment? Chaincannon havocs? combi-chosen?
Tesla armigers are probably worth honorable mention here
Hadn't even seen those, were they in the old knights slate? Or was tesla added in the updated book? Will have to take a look
Yes, when the new SM codex drops, SM are going to be scary to face. I don't believe CSM is meant to outshoot them honestly. We are going to have to find other ways. Unfortunately, with the new devastator discipline, I think SM are now just so good at mowing down infantry and lightly armored stuff such that the only way I see is to go T7, T8 preferably so that all of those shots end up failing to wound.
So, mass daemon engines, or get help from the chaos knights. The only issue is that their drop pods are now dangerous. Can come down turn 1. So, bubble wrap may be important too. Yet, I don't see how we can easily guard against the new SM who have so many bolter shots at ap-1 or better. Our cultists and even regular CSM are going to drop like flies against the amount of bolter fire they can churn out. We may have to rely on daemon troops like plague bearers. Because daemons have a 5++ save and don't care how much AP their weapon has. They might still chug out too much bolter fire even for plague bearers to handle though, with all their new stuff.
Azuza001 wrote: Triple repulsors can be intimidating if you are not expecting it. First question is what is your legion?
Yeah, let's talk about how to fight triple Repulsors.
I don't think it's that easy for CSMs. Each one does about 40 shots around and all their guns are AP-. They can fire their main gun twice in most circumstances.
I play Black Legion and was facing Ultramarines. The rest of his army was HQs, Primaris, Devastators, a Flyer and Thunderfire Cannons.
He deployed the Repulsors last, creating a kill zone covering most of the middle of the table. He put all his bolter / stubber fire into the Cultists (who had no saves) and all the big guns into the Deredeo until the HQs were the closest units.
In terms of what I did wrong - needed longer range guns and better delivery / meatshields. A Rhino could have made a difference. It's just a deadly match up at mid-range, you have to do some damage to them before you get close.
Azuza001 wrote: Oblitirators are a perfect solution to your repulsar problem. Deep strike, blow one away (or do as much dmg as possible), then slaanesh strat to shoot another one. They are probably going to die after that but 345 pts to kill 600 is a good trade.
I had 2 Obliterators and 2x20 Bloodletter squads ready to deep strike turn 2. There just wasn't much to support them when they got there.
Azuza001 wrote: T1 your focus would have to be on chaff clearing, which 5 man marine squads with chaincannons can do well. 3 man biker teams, bare minimum, are also a cheap and effective way at clearing chaff at 69 pts for 14 boltgun shots (you are giving the champion a free bolter right?) at 24" range plus 14" movement, i find all my lists start with 3 squads of these guys.
Yeah. Was thinking MSU would have caused the Repulsors to waste shots. Thought about a Biker Lord instead of the Chainlord.
Still not sure it's worth it... D3 mortal wounds maybe once or twice a turn... that's assuming your warlord doesn't get focused down early on for being in the middle of all the enemies. Maybe. Worth trying at least! Seems like there might be more reliable relics though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is the best current screen-clearing first turn unit for chaos at the moment? Chaincannon havocs? combi-chosen?
CC slaanesh havocs with a chaos lord, votlw, prescience, endless cacophony. 64 shots hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, wounding T4 and lower on 2s. Also works against non screen units, i deleted two 10 model necron immortal units with this
Personally I am really struggling to see how this CW build is going to be effective but try it out and let us know how it goes.
Regarding CC havocs, how are you protecting them T1 and getting them into range? Aside from proxying them in a casual game I haven't had much experience with them. My impression is that they are too fragile and hard to make work on T1.
ALCC havocs can move 9" during deployment with forward operatives. Get them into cover and they are -1 to hit at 12"+. Make them nurgle, and cast miasma of pestilence on them for -1 to hit, but this means no endless cacophony, and you need first turn. A DA can pray benediction of darkness on them for -1 to hit with ranged weapons, but he needs to be within 6" of them, it works before the battle round begins, and it doesnt work with forward operatives, unless you do that on the DA as well.
Question, since i saw that plastic contemptors were now available and surely are easily converted.
Is the hellforged Contemptor worth it with a kheres assault cannon?
(mostly curios due to the fact that the difference between a Butcher cannon isn't that far.)
you can keep them out of los and then move and shoot, they have no minus to move and shoot heavy weapons, for range... well that can be a issue but hardly you dont have any target at 30" or mean the opponent gave you most of the objective cause he should then be sitting deep in his deployment zone
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote: Question, since i saw that plastic contemptors were now available and surely are easily converted.
Is the hellforged Contemptor worth it with a kheres assault cannon?
(mostly curios due to the fact that the difference between a Butcher cannon isn't that far.)
best weapons are butcher cannons or C beam cannons, the difference is range 36" and 24" is a lot, you can avoid a 1st turn keres, hardly you can avoid a butcher, and d2 makes lot of difference too.
saint_red wrote: Personally I am really struggling to see how this CW build is going to be effective but try it out and let us know how it goes.
Regarding CC havocs, how are you protecting them T1 and getting them into range? Aside from proxying them in a casual game I haven't had much experience with them. My impression is that they are too fragile and hard to make work on T1.
They’re not affected by moving and shooting, so deploy them behind a wall. Or deploy them in a Rhino. If you’ve taken a bunch of them, may as well make them a Devastation Battery and gain access to shoot in T1 if your opponent goes first.
I gather grav-weapons have been improved. So, Noctolith Crown’s looking even nicer. Even gives Poxwalkers and Brimstone Horrors a 5++.
saint_red wrote: Personally I am really struggling to see how this CW build is going to be effective but try it out and let us know how it goes.
Regarding CC havocs, how are you protecting them T1 and getting them into range? Aside from proxying them in a casual game I haven't had much experience with them. My impression is that they are too fragile and hard to make work on T1.
They’re not affected by moving and shooting, so deploy them behind a wall. Or deploy them in a Rhino. If you’ve taken a bunch of them, may as well make them a Devastation Battery and gain access to shoot in T1 if your opponent goes first.
I gather grav-weapons have been improved. So, Noctolith Crown’s looking even nicer. Even gives Poxwalkers and Brimstone Horrors a 5++.
but why bring a 100pts piece of terrain.
When you can bring a knight with a 5++ aura?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
blackmage wrote: you can keep them out of los and then move and shoot, they have no minus to move and shoot heavy weapons, for range... well that can be a issue but hardly you dont have any target at 30" or mean the opponent gave you most of the objective cause he should then be sitting deep in his deployment zone
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote: Question, since i saw that plastic contemptors were now available and surely are easily converted.
Is the hellforged Contemptor worth it with a kheres assault cannon?
(mostly curios due to the fact that the difference between a Butcher cannon isn't that far.)
best weapons are butcher cannons or C beam cannons, the difference is range 36" and 24" is a lot, you can avoid a 1st turn keres, hardly you can avoid a butcher, and d2 makes lot of difference too.
Well then, time to gather Kitbash pieces.
Altough it is sad that i can't throw a Havoc launcher on it.
p5freak wrote: I say no. The 24" range of a kheres AC is not good, and its overcosted, 20 pts. sounds reasonable.
Even though it is heavy 6 s7? I mean that is a better assault cannon if anything.
Also why is a twin ac 10 pts more expensive then a Butcher?
Sometimes i wonder if the rule Team is even trying.
What good is S7 and 6 shots when you are out of range ? Twin AC is 30 because its 48", a little overcosted as well, should be 25.
blackmage wrote:you can keep them out of los and then move and shoot, they have no minus to move and shoot heavy weapons, for range... well that can be a issue but hardly you dont have any target at 30" or mean the opponent gave you most of the objective cause he should then be sitting deep in his deployment zone
Are you talking about hellforged contemptors ? They do suffer the minus to hit when moving and shooting heavy weapons.
p5freak wrote: I say no. The 24" range of a kheres AC is not good, and its overcosted, 20 pts. sounds reasonable.
Even though it is heavy 6 s7? I mean that is a better assault cannon if anything.
Also why is a twin ac 10 pts more expensive then a Butcher?
Sometimes i wonder if the rule Team is even trying.
What good is S7 and 6 shots when you are out of range ? Twin AC is 30 because its 48", a little overcosted as well, should be 25.
blackmage wrote:you can keep them out of los and then move and shoot, they have no minus to move and shoot heavy weapons, for range... well that can be a issue but hardly you dont have any target at 30" or mean the opponent gave you most of the objective cause he should then be sitting deep in his deployment zone
Are you talking about hellforged contemptors ? They do suffer the minus to hit when moving and shooting heavy weapons.
The twin AC is more expensive then the better Butcher cannon.
I mean common, that is stupid.
Still not sure it's worth it... D3 mortal wounds maybe once or twice a turn... that's assuming your warlord doesn't get focused down early on for being in the middle of all the enemies. Maybe. Worth trying at least! Seems like there might be more reliable relics though.
Its gonna be a lot more than once or twice.
Hmmmm well, I don't see how. In an ideal world, you'd be trying to move over units in your movement, then psychic, then charge phases. (not counting falling back, as that's just your movement). So that's only 3 chances to do it per turn, with a 50/50 chance of pulling it off, so when I say "once or twice" I'm literally correct as the actual chance is going to be 1.5x per turn. So it'll be, on average, 3 mortals wounds per turn, IF you manage to pull off a flyover in all three of those phases.
Now you might be thinking that you have a long movement, and that you could move over 2 or 3 units with each of your movement... but I'm saying that it might be hard enough to even manage to move over a single unit in each of your phases. The opponent has to leave big enough gaps for your guy to land, so he can either bunch his units up to stop him entirely, or leave big enough gaps that you can only reach one at a time.
I suspect that getting 3 mortal wounds per turn is likely your best outcome, unless you're against an opponent who doesn't know how to react to it and leaves enough space for you to leapfrog your way across the board every turn.
But again, i've not tried this, it might well work better than expected. Almost certainly it will work better vs some armies than others. Worth trying it and reporting back to us for sure.
blackmage wrote:you can keep them out of los and then move and shoot, they have no minus to move and shoot heavy weapons, for range... well that can be a issue but hardly you dont have any target at 30" or mean the opponent gave you most of the objective cause he should then be sitting deep in his deployment zone
Are you talking about hellforged contemptors ? They do suffer the minus to hit when moving and shooting heavy weapons.
For what it is worth I use the butchers on my lev dread and they are really good. Don’t underestimate the -2 morale. It is really helpful against most enemies and well worth the slightly less range. (Plus the strength 8 is a wide margin better than 7)
Just a list I'm considering making. Not competitive, but I think it'll be fun to collect, build and play with.
Flamestorm pred is basically built to guard the dreads and prevent them being tarpitted, because for 1CP it can shoot into combat and do 4D6 flamer hits to the chaff.
I went for autocannons on the Discos instead of my usual baleflamer, because they will have +1 to hit along with the reroll of 1's from Syll'eske (I believe this works anyway), so the autocannon if it's fired will probably do some work. Though they'll be advancing anyway, so maybe baleflamer is better... but it does save me 40 points. Not sure on this yet. But I'd have to free up 40 points somewhere if I change it.
I went for the ectoplasma on contemptors because I wanted them as mobile threats, and the soulburners are expensive. Also as they get to reroll all hits as purge (if I manage to focus fire decently) they should be fairly safe from overheating. I could make them even cheaper with bolters, but not sure that's worthwhile?
Also no relics listed. Flamers will be deepstruck (deepstriked?) for 1CP, and the Prince will have Skullreaver. Beyond that I'm not sure.
It's just the movement and charge phases. I assume you included psychic because of warptime? Yeh, no, won't work. The rule specifies phases.
Edit: Which means it also won't work when falling back. Wrong phase.
Read the recent FAQ, it works.
Q: When a rule allows a model or unit to take an action (move,
shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power)
outside of the normal turn sequence, and that rule explicitly
mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase of the
turn structure to the current one, e.g. ‘That unit can shoot as if it
were the Shooting phase’, do rules that are normally used during
that phase (in the example this would be the Shooting phase) take
effect? Is the same true of Overwatch attacks?
A: With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g.
abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would
apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking
place ‘as if it were that phase’. However, if a Stratagem
specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then
it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a
Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting
phase’ to affect a unit that is Shooting ‘as if it were
the Shooting phase’).
Interesting, then yeh Warptime works with it. Also I realise falling back does happen in the movement phase, so that works too.
Still not sure it's worth it... D3 mortal wounds maybe once or twice a turn... that's assuming your warlord doesn't get focused down early on for being in the middle of all the enemies. Maybe. Worth trying at least! Seems like there might be more reliable relics though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is the best current screen-clearing first turn unit for chaos at the moment? Chaincannon havocs? combi-chosen?
Tesla armigers are probably worth honorable mention here
Hadn't even seen those, were they in the old knights slate? Or was tesla added in the updated book? Will have to take a look
They were in a new FW release that dropped after the new codex was released.
I've been using 2 and a squad of 9 mark of slanesh, alpha legion bikes. I've found it to be a great and tough anti hoarde combo. Bikes mow through low toughness, low save and Moirax take on marine equivilents.
They've both got good movement to make their range decent and are both tougher than chaincannon havocks.
Just a list I'm considering making. Not competitive, but I think it'll be fun to collect, build and play with.
Flamestorm pred is basically built to guard the dreads and prevent them being tarpitted, because for 1CP it can shoot into combat and do 4D6 flamer hits to the chaff.
I went for autocannons on the Discos instead of my usual baleflamer, because they will have +1 to hit along with the reroll of 1's from Syll'eske (I believe this works anyway), so the autocannon if it's fired will probably do some work. Though they'll be advancing anyway, so maybe baleflamer is better... but it does save me 40 points. Not sure on this yet. But I'd have to free up 40 points somewhere if I change it.
I went for the ectoplasma on contemptors because I wanted them as mobile threats, and the soulburners are expensive. Also as they get to reroll all hits as purge (if I manage to focus fire decently) they should be fairly safe from overheating. I could make them even cheaper with bolters, but not sure that's worthwhile?
Also no relics listed. Flamers will be deepstruck (deepstriked?) for 1CP, and the Prince will have Skullreaver. Beyond that I'm not sure.
Sounds like a fun list.
That purge dread spam though is nasty.
Just a list I'm considering making. Not competitive, but I think it'll be fun to collect, build and play with.
Flamestorm pred is basically built to guard the dreads and prevent them being tarpitted, because for 1CP it can shoot into combat and do 4D6 flamer hits to the chaff.
I went for autocannons on the Discos instead of my usual baleflamer, because they will have +1 to hit along with the reroll of 1's from Syll'eske (I believe this works anyway), so the autocannon if it's fired will probably do some work. Though they'll be advancing anyway, so maybe baleflamer is better... but it does save me 40 points. Not sure on this yet. But I'd have to free up 40 points somewhere if I change it.
I went for the ectoplasma on contemptors because I wanted them as mobile threats, and the soulburners are expensive. Also as they get to reroll all hits as purge (if I manage to focus fire decently) they should be fairly safe from overheating. I could make them even cheaper with bolters, but not sure that's worthwhile?
Also no relics listed. Flamers will be deepstruck (deepstriked?) for 1CP, and the Prince will have Skullreaver. Beyond that I'm not sure.
Sounds like a fun list.
That purge dread spam though is nasty.
Hopefully!
Originally a bit part of this list was going to be Alpha Legion, as they're actually my favourite as far as legions go, but I decided to try and make a good army without them as I'm predicting AL will be hit bad after the next FAQ. Flawless Host works well though I think.
whembly wrote: Hey guys... looking to get back into my heretic armies after my recent ITC tournament.
I played 5 games, and in four of those games, my opponent really took advantage of the ITC ruin rule whereby units on 1st floor behind wall don't have LOS. Great for units to rack up obj points and in 2 of the games for weapons/powers that don't require LOS.
What's your favorite CSM/Demon units you'd use to "root out" entrench units in ruins like that?
I saw some discussions revolving around a hammer lord - what is the setup? (warptime thrown in I'm assuming)
What about Oblits? (expensive)
I think ya'll brand me as a heretic... but, what about Red Corsair Mutilators? (DS, then assault or if not in range move+run+assault in next turn).
Demons: only thing I can think of is large blob of 'letters or pink horrors???
Anything else?
The best units for this job are hellforged scorpius and deredeos with greater havoc ml. If your not into FW then your mostly stuck with assaulting them out.. at least until you've cleared screens for DS landing zones but by then they've done their job. Single oblits can fit into tighter spaces and I've used them but they can be really swingy and then guaranteed dead.
On a friendlier note I like msu zerks. Theres just something about 4x5 zerks in rhinos thats enjoyable and they always attract attention.
Alternately my go to is dmc tzaangors.
IF the new Shock attack rule indeed works, and you are willing to run RC and Khorne, then i'd imagine that a unit of mulitators might not be half bad.
Atm they are 35 pts right?
Yup. 105 per 3.
What's the new Shock attack rule? Is that from the new Space marine codex that we're hoping CSM would get?
Yes. Astartes are getting it on saturday when the new book is out. Combines the Bolter Discipline we already have with the new +1 attack in the first round of combats.
Leviathan Dreadnought - Is there any merit to leaving it with double-siege claws and meltaguns? Or is it generally always better to go with double butcher cannons?
I'm just wondering as it will likely be fairly lonesome if left in the backfield, and if its keeping up with the rest of the army then the lack of melee weapons may be an issue? Not sure.
slave.entity wrote: You never want your dreads in close combat. Not enough swings to make CC weapons worth it.
You don't even want a single melee weapon on the Leviathan because it loses a melee attack when you get rid of one combat arm. It's stupid but it is what it is.
Leviathan is always best with dual BC arrays. If the other weapon options weren't so lack luster it might be different.
Contemptors otoh I find do well with a mixed loadout. I'd put the cc build as equal to the dual BC. My preferences are deathclaw and butcher cannon base and from there I often include havoc ml and then sometimes I'll swap the cbbolter for either the soulburner or recently even the plasma since its cheap. They are surprisingly fast at 9" and draw attention that a backfield double BC contemptor will not.
The deredeo is IMO the best fw dread available, better than a leviathan.. unless facing another leviathan that is. Again pretty no brainer on the weapon options.
slave.entity wrote: You never want your dreads in close combat. Not enough swings to make CC weapons worth it.
How about the merits of a butcher/greater havoc deredeo vs a double-butcher leviathan?
Levi is +1 T and has a few more shots, but is 80 points more expensive
Dorito is a little easier to kill, and a few less shots, but some of those shots don't need LOS and he has a bonus against flyers.
Thoughts?
I'd run the double butcher leviathan over the daredeo every day of the week. I know Daredeos are talked about a lot right now but I think that's because people have stopped running mele infantry so are low on options for routing out that unit that is hiding behind terrain.
If you have bloodletters, warptalons, daemonettes, possessed or bezerkers in your list the indirect fire is less important.
I run a double butcher levi in my AL list all the time and he always pulls his weight.
CODEX: CHAOS SPACE MARINES
Demolisher Cannon
Change Type to Heavy D6 and change Abilities to ‘-’
Hateful Assault
Add the following ability to all datasheets that have the Heretic
Astartes or Fallen keyword (excluding units with the Chaos
Cultists keyword):
‘If this unit makes a charge move, is charged or performs a Heroic
Intervention, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in this unit
until the end of the turn.’
slave.entity wrote: You never want your dreads in close combat. Not enough swings to make CC weapons worth it.
How about the merits of a butcher/greater havoc deredeo vs a double-butcher leviathan?
Levi is +1 T and has a few more shots, but is 80 points more expensive
Dorito is a little easier to kill, and a few less shots, but some of those shots don't need LOS and he has a bonus against flyers.
Thoughts?
I'd run the double butcher leviathan over the daredeo every day of the week. I know Daredeos are talked about a lot right now but I think that's because people have stopped running mele infantry so are low on options for routing out that unit that is hiding behind terrain.
If you have bloodletters, warptalons, daemonettes, possessed or bezerkers in your list the indirect fire is less important.
I run a double butcher levi in my AL list all the time and he always pulls his weight.
I don't have bloodletters, warptalons, daemonettes, possessed or berzerkers in my list. So...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
p5freak wrote: Free PDF update is up on warhammer community.
Spoiler:
CODEX: CHAOS SPACE MARINES
Demolisher Cannon
Change Type to Heavy D6 and change Abilities to ‘-’
Hateful Assault
Add the following ability to all datasheets that have the Heretic
Astartes or Fallen keyword (excluding units with the Chaos
Cultists keyword):
‘If this unit makes a charge move, is charged or performs a Heroic
Intervention, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in this unit
until the end of the turn.’
This includes daemon engines and vehicles.
Interesting, this is what I wishlisted on here the other day but didn't actually expect it to happen. My maulerfiend is pleased. As are my dreads.
Of course the CSM codex is still a garbage fire in comparison, but it's something.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Awesome. Still makes the Heldrake overcosted, but helps. Great on the Death Guard Daemon engines.
And the Primarchs.
Well we'll have to take what we can get. But Damn my Noise Marine's sonic blasters were already over costed compared to bolters and combi-bolters thanks to Bolter Discipline. But Intercessor's auto bolt rifles are Assault 3 now as well and only cost 1 pt. Yeah, I'm pretty sure ignore cover isn't worth 3 pts/model.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Awesome. Still makes the Heldrake overcosted, but helps. Great on the Death Guard Daemon engines.
And the Primarchs.
Well we'll have to take what we can get. But Damn my Noise Marine's sonic blasters were already over costed compared to bolters and combi-bolters thanks to Bolter Discipline. But Intercessor's auto bolt rifles are Assault 3 now as well and only cost 1 pt. Yeah, I'm pretty sure ignore cover isn't worth 3 pts/model.
I was going to ask how the ABR compares to VotLWEC sonic blaster, but then that’s spending 3CP on a single unit in a single phase versus army-wide Combat Doctrines
CD does forbid a soup list, so no loyal 32 CP farming, therefore it has an effective opportunity cost of 4-5CP, but as an army-wide unstoppable ability it’s quite possibly a bargain. AP4 las, plas? AP3 krak? AP2 HB, AC? That’s quite a first turn
Nightlord1987 wrote: Awesome. Still makes the Heldrake overcosted, but helps. Great on the Death Guard Daemon engines.
And the Primarchs.
Well we'll have to take what we can get. But Damn my Noise Marine's sonic blasters were already over costed compared to bolters and combi-bolters thanks to Bolter Discipline. But Intercessor's auto bolt rifles are Assault 3 now as well and only cost 1 pt. Yeah, I'm pretty sure ignore cover isn't worth 3 pts/model.
I was going to ask how the ABR compares to VotLWEC sonic blaster, but then that’s spending 3CP on a single unit in a single phase versus army-wide Combat Doctrines
CD does forbid a soup list, so no loyal 32 CP farming, therefore it has an effective opportunity cost of 4-5CP, but as an army-wide unstoppable ability it’s quite possibly a bargain. AP4 las, plas? AP3 krak? AP2 HB, AC? That’s quite a first turn
Loyalist don't really have ac though That is too oldschool, ergo only for us.
Altough hades or any other ac at -2, Yikes, that would be amazing.
so brag of the day, my lord discordant just did 23 wounds to a knight.... it almost killed it but it made a bunch of saves. Sorry, proud of my dice.
now on to questions... 1, do lord discordants get advance and charge if they are Red Corsairs (I think not). 2, the new rule that gives +1 attacks per model if charge/d can they do that?
Vindicators just got a huge buff on it's demolish cannon. # of shots is always D6. CSM may get more out of that than loyalists.
It's dirt cheap for D6 S10 AP3 D6 damage shots and now one of the best anti armor guns in the game. It's T8 11W tough as a Russ with 1 less wound.
It's weakness is it has to move closer on turn 1 and has to stay close. The easy counter is to charge it. An excellent safeguard is to screen it with something nasty that nobody wants to get close to like a Lord discordant.
I can buff venomcrawlers to S9 with a herald of (chaos god). Or a greater possessed, or S10 with both, even S12 ist possible. And I get 2D3 shots at 36", which I prefer to D6. Please charge my crawlers, I don't mind. I can also buff them to hit on 2+. And +1 to wound for ranged attacks.
Yes, disco lords get +1 attack from the new rule, and as RC they can charge after advancing
p5freak wrote: I can buff venomcrawlers to S9 with a herald of (chaos god). Or a greater possessed, or S10 with both, even S12 ist possible. And I get 2D3 shots at 36", which I prefer to D6. Please charge my crawlers, I don't mind. I can also buff them to hit on 2+. And +1 to wound for ranged attacks.
Yes, disco lords get +1 attack from the new rule, and as RC they can charge after advancing
But the Venomcrawlers only do D3 damage per hit at ap -2. And T8 can make a difference. Although you're running without an inherent 5++, I suppose.
xenoterracide wrote: so brag of the day, my lord discordant just did 23 wounds to a knight.... it almost killed it but it made a bunch of saves. Sorry, proud of my dice.
now on to questions... 1, do lord discordants get advance and charge if they are Red Corsairs (I think not). 2, the new rule that gives +1 attacks per model if charge/d can they do that?
yes they can advance and charge, they are characters, same for +1 attack
p5freak wrote: I can buff venomcrawlers to S9 with a herald of (chaos god). Or a greater possessed, or S10 with both, even S12 ist possible. And I get 2D3 shots at 36", which I prefer to D6. Please charge my crawlers, I don't mind. I can also buff them to hit on 2+. And +1 to wound for ranged attacks.
Yes, disco lords get +1 attack from the new rule, and as RC they can charge after advancing
But the Venomcrawlers only do D3 damage per hit at ap -2. And T8 can make a difference. Although you're running without an inherent 5++, I suppose.
Average of 2d3 shotsX D3 is 8
Average of D6 shots by D6 damage is 12.25
The crawlers are better at shooting 2w targets like primaris but the vindicator is a better anti armor platform by 50%. 2 vindicators can crack armor as well as 3 crawlers
There is also a potential traffic jam issue with too many chaos walkers. Crawlers are good units but they fill a different role as a hybrid ranged and CC unit.
Now that Summoning sidesteps first turn deep strike restrictions, has anyone had a crack at making it work by taking Alpha Legion? Forward Operatives allows a bunch of characters to join some midfield units at the start, then in your first turn potentially drop Pink Horrors and Flamers at their range sweet spots without sacrificing accuracy with advancing or losing models to losing first turn, Beasts of Nurgle and Soulgrinders at close ranges that bypass their crawling pace, etc. Master of Possession can potentially have
Not much use on Khorne and Slaanesh, whose detachments have the mobility to get there on their own.
Sooooo something else with the Vindicators is that they can actually move + advance and still use Linebreaker Bombardment because the roll for that is a flat 4+ and not related to BS. This also means that your degraded Vindicators can still be of use.
I'm wondering whether taking the 3 Vindicators now could actually be a good option. If you find yourself out of range with the cannon T1 you can move up to use Linebreaker and from then on use the cannon. If your Vindicators get horribly degraded but all 3 survive then you can revert back to dealing damage with Linebreaker.
The Linebreaker strat is still not amazing considering it costs 1CP for an average of 3MW (per unit) and you forfeit 375pts of shooting - but if you wouldn't be shooting with your Vindicators anyway then it adds versatility.
Automatically Appended Next Post: After reading the strat again in the codex I've also just realised - is there anything stopping you from a) firing into combat b) falling back and using this strat?
Unless this was FAQ'd you should be able to do both of those things right?
LBB has for a long time been something I really want to try but feel reluctant to countenance the buy-in, especially since first turn can’t be easily cooked any more, and whilst Knights can generate a 5++ aura, they have also caused metagames to be populated with armies that can easily get 11W past T8 and a 5++. (In respect to the latter, Noctolith Crown seems to have come out later than when it could have had an apogee; it’s been mentioned above that you could just take a Knight and pop ion aegis.)
All that said, I do have an unfinished Vindicator and at the very least the new profile gives that a bump up the paint queue. Might use a couple of Rhinos as proxies to playtest. My modest expectation is that the main impact of taking three Vindicators - Heretic or otherwise - will be that your opponent spreads out a bit more in their deployment as insurance against being nuked. So, less of a tactical nuke, and more of a zoning tool.
Main strategy that comes to mind: deploy them about 6” apart. Warptiming the one on the left or the right will give their attack a deceptively wide field. Your opponent will probably have taken care not to congregate in front of the centre one and not expect a sweeping manoeuvre to bring them to bear on a more outlying position.
Potential synergy: yes, you can fire on your own units with this, and if a volatile Death Guard vehicle is in a brawl and nearly dead, it could make for a useful secondary explosion.
List ideas: Firstly, Nurglings and Forward Operatives and Heldrakes and Slaanesh Daemons and niche Summoning gimmicks SHUT UP WORD BEARERS ARE GOOD will be useful screens for three tanks driving full tilt at the enemy line.
As well as the Warptimer, bring along a Spartan full of Berzerkers and a Lord and EC as well. Get as much of the armour around a Noctolith Crown as you can. If you lose first turn, opponent has to decide whether to use their anti-Knight firepower to disable the Linebreaker or hamstring the party van.
Worth remembering: not only can they fire it into combat, they can also fire it out of Combat, and even onto their own position. If one of them’s hopelessly tarpitted by multiple units, there are less glorious ways to go.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is all contingent on someone not trolling a tournament and LBB getting nerfed even farther below its current gimmick tier with common sense restrictions
lindsay40k wrote: Now that Summoning sidesteps first turn deep strike restrictions, has anyone had a crack at making it work by taking Alpha Legion? Forward Operatives allows a bunch of characters to join some midfield units at the start, then in your first turn potentially drop Pink Horrors and Flamers at their range sweet spots without sacrificing accuracy with advancing or losing models to losing first turn, Beasts of Nurgle and Soulgrinders at close ranges that bypass their crawling pace, etc. Master of Possession can potentially have
Not much use on Khorne and Slaanesh, whose detachments have the mobility to get there on their own.
1CP per character, so it's a bit of an investment depending how many units you want to summon. And you can still fail, though the MoP might be the better option there to minimise that.
However those units still can't move after being summoned. So the only difference between starting them on the table and moving/advancing turn 1, and scouting a character forwards and summoning turn 1, is probably only a couple of inches at best.
It does keep them off the table if you don't get first turn, which is good... but is it good enough to be worth the CP and risk?
I'm not sure it's enough, it doesnt seem to have much advantage over normal summoning (which doesn't get used much as it is). I could well be wrong, I'm just not sure where the benefit is.
lindsay40k wrote: Now that Summoning sidesteps first turn deep strike restrictions, has anyone had a crack at making it work by taking Alpha Legion? Forward Operatives allows a bunch of characters to join some midfield units at the start, then in your first turn potentially drop Pink Horrors and Flamers at their range sweet spots without sacrificing accuracy with advancing or losing models to losing first turn, Beasts of Nurgle and Soulgrinders at close ranges that bypass their crawling pace, etc. Master of Possession can potentially have
Not much use on Khorne and Slaanesh, whose detachments have the mobility to get there on their own.
1CP per character, so it's a bit of an investment depending how many units you want to summon. And you can still fail, though the MoP might be the better option there to minimise that.
However those units still can't move after being summoned. So the only difference between starting them on the table and moving/advancing turn 1, and scouting a character forwards and summoning turn 1, is probably only a couple of inches at best.
It does keep them off the table if you don't get first turn, which is good... but is it good enough to be worth the CP and risk?
I'm not sure it's enough, it doesnt seem to have much advantage over normal summoning (which doesn't get used much as it is). I could well be wrong, I'm just not sure where the benefit is.
Why not summoning a bunch off Plague bearers?
MoP, forward, spell to summon, probably a reroll.
that would be 15 " into the mid field.
Exactly, there’s some Daemon units that have decent synergy with it
The three slow tough units - Plaguebearers, BoNs, and Soulgrinders - might be reaching a bit to charge, but being in the opponent’s face on T1 is still pretty decent
If it’s a 24” apart deployment with no enemy midfield infiltrators, Horrors don’t get to shoot at full effect. If you get T1, they have to advance, losing at least a quarter or their hits. If you lose T1, they get shot at, perhaps taking them below the critical mass of 20
Likewise, Flamers - which arguably should be a situationally summoned counter to Culexus and hit modifier spam - have a threat radius of 24”, making them unable to get within range at the start of a 24” deployment game
Main problem is that to be sure of rolling a 12 to summon 30 Horrors or a grinder, you want to be a Word Bearer. Still doable with a MoP Advancing out of a vehicle, though it relies on a psychic test - the AL variant on the gimmick brings redundancy in numbers
If your FO squads are equipped for a midfield role - Noise Marines, chaincannons, Oblits, etc - then making the FO summoner a Chaos Lord or gunline support DA means they’ll also be benefitting your midfielders
lindsay40k wrote: Exactly, there’s some Daemon units that have decent synergy with it
The three slow tough units - Plaguebearers, BoNs, and Soulgrinders - might be reaching a bit to charge, but being in the opponent’s face on T1 is still pretty decent
If it’s a 24” apart deployment with no enemy midfield infiltrators, Horrors don’t get to shoot at full effect. If you get T1, they have to advance, losing at least a quarter or their hits. If you lose T1, they get shot at, perhaps taking them below the critical mass of 20
Likewise, Flamers - which arguably should be a situationally summoned counter to Culexus and hit modifier spam - have a threat radius of 24”, making them unable to get within range at the start of a 24” deployment game
Main problem is that to be sure of rolling a 12 to summon 30 Horrors or a grinder, you want to be a Word Bearer. Still doable with a MoP Advancing out of a vehicle, though it relies on a psychic test - the AL variant on the gimmick brings redundancy in numbers
If your FO squads are equipped for a midfield role - Noise Marines, chaincannons, Oblits, etc - then making the FO summoner a Chaos Lord or gunline support DA means they’ll also be benefitting your midfielders
The issue might be the summoned ammount of plague bearers.
but in a 1000 pts game that could absolutely work out, summoning on demand tarpit and contesting the midfield with units that are difficult to wipe.
In bigger games i feel like the summoning scales badly and just leads to them beeing shot of the table.
Had success yesterday in a casual 2500pt game against Dark Angels. Didn’t even use my termie bomb waiting in deep strike (player GG’d after his turn 3, he went first)
I had some demon-engine camping in the back with a daemon prince for rerolls and prescience all Alpha Legion + Slannesh. Consisted of 2 venom crawlers and 2 forgefiends. My friend had some termies approaching but not enough to take out the venomcrawlers+ prince and some world eater allied bezerkers dealt with his smash captains before they joined the skull throne. And of course lots of cultist absorbing fire. Happy I got to try out the new shock assault rule with the WE bezerkers. Definitely helped against storm shield shenanigans.
Oh and the game store had a poorly painted new Abby model for cheap I can’t wait to strip, paint and try out. Haven’t played with Black Legion but I got plenty of cultists I wouldn’t mind being fearless heh.
lindsay40k wrote: Exactly, there’s some Daemon units that have decent synergy with it
The three slow tough units - Plaguebearers, BoNs, and Soulgrinders - might be reaching a bit to charge, but being in the opponent’s face on T1 is still pretty decent
If it’s a 24” apart deployment with no enemy midfield infiltrators, Horrors don’t get to shoot at full effect. If you get T1, they have to advance, losing at least a quarter or their hits. If you lose T1, they get shot at, perhaps taking them below the critical mass of 20
Likewise, Flamers - which arguably should be a situationally summoned counter to Culexus and hit modifier spam - have a threat radius of 24”, making them unable to get within range at the start of a 24” deployment game
Main problem is that to be sure of rolling a 12 to summon 30 Horrors or a grinder, you want to be a Word Bearer. Still doable with a MoP Advancing out of a vehicle, though it relies on a psychic test - the AL variant on the gimmick brings redundancy in numbers
If your FO squads are equipped for a midfield role - Noise Marines, chaincannons, Oblits, etc - then making the FO summoner a Chaos Lord or gunline support DA means they’ll also be benefitting your midfielders
Although definitely not competitive by any means, i do run a 'for the lulz' list that uses summoning for roadblocking my opponent. I summon a Skull Altar with a shooty Knight, move+warptime a MoP next to it (i.e. 8" bubble of the Altar)
and summon via Incursion - if possible - 24 Letters directly infront of my opponents line. Warpcharge 7 isn't guaranteed, but its atleast somehting - and the Altar allows you to reroll any dice when summoning Khorne Daemon units,
which is kinda hilarious because you can roll an 18 - i.e. Big Red or his 'lesser' Bloodthirster friendo's.
The way I see it is that summoning in daemons T1 is legitimately useful for 3 reasons.
First, with MoP / AL shenanigans it can provide another way of clearing screens. Horrors and Flamers are the best at this and are both 225 points for full squads including an icon on the Horrors. Take Horrors for killing GEQ and Flamers for MEQ or units with -1 to hit or cover where their AP-1 comes in handy. Instead of a Bloodletter bomb coming down T2 and ripping through a screen they should have an easier time of getting into combat with more dangerous units.
Second, it can provide good board control. There is a popular daemons/chaos list at the moment that involves a big blob of PBs starting on the table and another one deep striking in on T2. The list tries to force the opponent into their deployment zone and prevent them from taking objectives. Summoning could be used in a similar way either by allowing both units to stay off the table at deployment and still come in on T1 and T2; or by letting the unit that normally comes in on T2 come down on T1.
Finally, it allows you to react to your opponent better. Previously I have never really rated this aspect of summoning because you are either bringing PBs or Horrors/Flamers, as all other daemons require pre-game stratagems or daemonic loci to function properly. However, now that SM T1 drop pod spam is back on the menu this could actually be really useful. Basically this will allow you to keep your daemons off the table T1 so that they are safe from the drop pods and then bring them in as a counter punch wherever you need them. Horrors or Flamers are still probably the only units you'll want to do this with as melee units are too unreliable.
saint_red wrote: The way I see it is that summoning in daemons T1 is legitimately useful for 3 reasons.
First, with MoP / AL shenanigans it can provide another way of clearing screens. Horrors and Flamers are the best at this and are both 225 points for full squads including an icon on the Horrors. Take Horrors for killing GEQ and Flamers for MEQ or units with -1 to hit or cover where their AP-1 comes in handy. Instead of a Bloodletter bomb coming down T2 and ripping through a screen they should have an easier time of getting into combat with more dangerous units.
Second, it can provide good board control. There is a popular daemons/chaos list at the moment that involves a big blob of PBs starting on the table and another one deep striking in on T2. The list tries to force the opponent into their deployment zone and prevent them from taking objectives. Summoning could be used in a similar way either by allowing both units to stay off the table at deployment and still come in on T1 and T2; or by letting the unit that normally comes in on T2 come down on T1.
Finally, it allows you to react to your opponent better. Previously I have never really rated this aspect of summoning because you are either bringing PBs or Horrors/Flamers, as all other daemons require pre-game stratagems or daemonic loci to function properly. However, now that SM T1 drop pod spam is back on the menu this could actually be really useful. Basically this will allow you to keep your daemons off the table T1 so that they are safe from the drop pods and then bring them in as a counter punch wherever you need them. Horrors or Flamers are still probably the only units you'll want to do this with as melee units are too unreliable.
TBF, i don't think the Drop pods will be an issue, due to cultist screens etc still beeing a thing. Also mostly due to their pricetag.
Altough i think that there now could be a case where you want a AL cutlist blob to deny Deepstrike even more.
giving you more room to manouevre in it.
Definitely possible - we're going to have to see how the meta evolves but this does give us a solid counter that nobody else has access to. I would still really like to see summoning get a buff but I think now there are actually use cases for it. 6 months ago there were 0 reasons to use it.
Even before the change thats what my Vindicator did. For 125 points it absorbed the same amount of threat that a land raider or knight would. Its a great distraction carnifex, oddly enough.
vaklor4 wrote: Even before the change thats what my Vindicator did. For 125 points it absorbed the same amount of threat that a land raider or knight would. Its a great distraction carnifex, oddly enough.
Tbf i did give it -1 to hit.
And my enemy got traumatised once by it in older editions and might have a vendetta against it.
But worth it
Play daemonforge to re-roll any failed hit and wound rolls, which will be 1s to hit, and 1s and 2s to wound.
