Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yeah, in a brawl, World Eaters beat Red Corsairs beat Flawless Host beat Emperor’s Children, and if it’s a loyalist-punching contest then FH beat RC, but WE are also hopelessly outgunned by the others and RC actually get to where the important fighting is

With WE Trait being nerfed, there’s little reason other than fluff and the DTW strat (which can be a lifesaver if you have a Tzeentch-rich meta!) to choose them over a polytheist Legion/Chapter

...on a related note: I like Daemonkin gimmick lists, and I reckon there’s fun to be had with WE Possessed, Soultearer Portent, VotLW, and Crimson Crown

...it’s not going to be as good as a simple Bletterbomb, is it

...on a related note: I like Daemonkin gimmick lists, and I reckon there’s fun to be had with WE Possessed, Soultearer Portent, VotLW, and Crimson Crown

...it’s not going to be as good as a simple Bletterbomb, is it

So Long either Brazen beasts or WE don't allow psykers so Long i feel the lists won't work as intended.

edit: have we actually ever seen the paintscheme of the brazen beasts?

Not Online!!! wrote:

...on a related note: I like Daemonkin gimmick lists, and I reckon there’s fun to be had with WE Possessed, Soultearer Portent, VotLW, and Crimson Crown

...it’s not going to be as good as a simple Bletterbomb, is it

So Long either Brazen beasts or WE don't allow psykers so Long i feel the lists won't work as intended.

edit: have we actually ever seen the paintscheme of the brazen beasts?

Yeah, they look rather cool:

Waaaghbert wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

...on a related note: I like Daemonkin gimmick lists, and I reckon there’s fun to be had with WE Possessed, Soultearer Portent, VotLW, and Crimson Crown

...it’s not going to be as good as a simple Bletterbomb, is it

So Long either Brazen beasts or WE don't allow psykers so Long i feel the lists won't work as intended.

edit: have we actually ever seen the paintscheme of the brazen beasts?

Yeah, they look rather cool:

Isn't that a World eater?
Sans the we Symbol?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Altough nice sheme it is and they Symbol in actually decent.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Waaaghbert wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

...on a related note: I like Daemonkin gimmick lists, and I reckon there’s fun to be had with WE Possessed, Soultearer Portent, VotLW, and Crimson Crown

...it’s not going to be as good as a simple Bletterbomb, is it

So Long either Brazen beasts or WE don't allow psykers so Long i feel the lists won't work as intended.

edit: have we actually ever seen the paintscheme of the brazen beasts?

Yeah, they look rather cool:

Isn't that a World eater?
Sans the we Symbol?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Altough nice sheme it is and they Symbol in actually decent.

That's what I was thinking. The only thing that distinguishes it from a World Eater is the gray/metallic color present on the chest and backpack, but I'm not so sure those parts can't be made gray on a World Eater.

Edit: If you google search Brazen Beast, other images make it clear that there are two reds, a darker red (khorne red) on the body and a lighter red (mephiston red) on the pauldrons.

 Kharneth wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Waaaghbert wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

...on a related note: I like Daemonkin gimmick lists, and I reckon there’s fun to be had with WE Possessed, Soultearer Portent, VotLW, and Crimson Crown

...it’s not going to be as good as a simple Bletterbomb, is it

So Long either Brazen beasts or WE don't allow psykers so Long i feel the lists won't work as intended.

edit: have we actually ever seen the paintscheme of the brazen beasts?

Yeah, they look rather cool:

Isn't that a World eater?
Sans the we Symbol?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Altough nice sheme it is and they Symbol in actually decent.

That's what I was thinking. The only thing that distinguishes it from a World Eater is the gray/metallic color present on the chest and backpack, but I'm not so sure those parts can't be made gray on a World Eater.

Edit: If you google search Brazen Beast, other images make it clear that there are two reds, a darker red (khorne red) on the body and a lighter red (mephiston red) on the pauldrons.

As far as I know the "darker red" is often described as maroon coloured. Which I prefer actually, since there are no other "brownish" Marines around


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like this

Not Online!!! wrote:

...on a related note: I like Daemonkin gimmick lists, and I reckon there’s fun to be had with WE Possessed, Soultearer Portent, VotLW, and Crimson Crown

...it’s not going to be as good as a simple Bletterbomb, is it

So Long either Brazen beasts or WE don't allow psykers so Long i feel the lists won't work as intended.

Not going so gimmicky as to leave the sorcerer on the shelf

Got a question about Terminators, specifically within a World Eaters context.

Are terminators generally effective and/or considered competitive? I've heard of the combi-plasma terminators with a lord, but what about the other options? Does anyone use them with heavy weapons? Does anyone use them with power fists or lightning claws? And does anyone mix and match their equipment upgrades or do people generally leave them identical? They're very expensive and I worry about over-equipping them.

 Kharneth wrote:
Got a question about Terminators, specifically within a World Eaters context.

Are terminators generally effective and/or considered competitive? I've heard of the combi-plasma terminators with a lord, but what about the other options? Does anyone use them with heavy weapons? Does anyone use them with power fists or lightning claws? And does anyone mix and match their equipment upgrades or do people generally leave them identical? They're very expensive and I worry about over-equipping them.

The cheapo loadout is decent.
Problem is, you do kinda need the doubling of dakka, ergo Slaanesh is kinda enforced.

The reaper is a decent choice, worth it's points and a utility weapon.

Melee is too expensive, beyond the chain axe imo.
Although if you go we with them that might even work.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
Got a question about Terminators, specifically within a World Eaters context.

Are terminators generally effective and/or considered competitive? I've heard of the combi-plasma terminators with a lord, but what about the other options? Does anyone use them with heavy weapons? Does anyone use them with power fists or lightning claws? And does anyone mix and match their equipment upgrades or do people generally leave them identical? They're very expensive and I worry about over-equipping them.

The cheapo loadout is decent.
Problem is, you do kinda need the doubling of dakka, ergo Slaanesh is kinda enforced.

The reaper is a decent choice, worth it's points and a utility weapon.

Melee is too expensive, beyond the chain axe imo.
Although if you go we with them that might even work.

I struggle to even want to use the terminators with chainaxes seeing as they'd be so much worse than berzerkers. It's annoying how the new terminators don't even give you enough chainaxes to equip them all like that anyway.

 Kharneth wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
Got a question about Terminators, specifically within a World Eaters context.

Are terminators generally effective and/or considered competitive? I've heard of the combi-plasma terminators with a lord, but what about the other options? Does anyone use them with heavy weapons? Does anyone use them with power fists or lightning claws? And does anyone mix and match their equipment upgrades or do people generally leave them identical? They're very expensive and I worry about over-equipping them.

The cheapo loadout is decent.
Problem is, you do kinda need the doubling of dakka, ergo Slaanesh is kinda enforced.

The reaper is a decent choice, worth it's points and a utility weapon.

Melee is too expensive, beyond the chain axe imo.
Although if you go we with them that might even work.

I struggle to even want to use the terminators with chainaxes seeing as they'd be so much worse than berzerkers. It's annoying how the new terminators don't even give you enough chainaxes to equip them all like that anyway.

well you get alot of enegry fist parts, which look like elongated armor plates to defend hands.
Add in a bunch of Chainswords from the new box and well you get a really nice alternative.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
Got a question about Terminators, specifically within a World Eaters context.

Are terminators generally effective and/or considered competitive? I've heard of the combi-plasma terminators with a lord, but what about the other options? Does anyone use them with heavy weapons? Does anyone use them with power fists or lightning claws? And does anyone mix and match their equipment upgrades or do people generally leave them identical? They're very expensive and I worry about over-equipping them.

The cheapo loadout is decent.
Problem is, you do kinda need the doubling of dakka, ergo Slaanesh is kinda enforced.

The reaper is a decent choice, worth it's points and a utility weapon.

Melee is too expensive, beyond the chain axe imo.
Although if you go we with them that might even work.

I struggle to even want to use the terminators with chainaxes seeing as they'd be so much worse than berzerkers. It's annoying how the new terminators don't even give you enough chainaxes to equip them all like that anyway.

well you get alot of enegry fist parts, which look like elongated armor plates to defend hands.
Add in a bunch of Chainswords from the new box and well you get a really nice alternative.

I've also been trying to find ways to make terminators good. I dislike the transport tax, so I tend to only field units which have their own transport. Jetpacks and Termis with deepstrike are the ideal. But they just don't tend to be very good at the moment.

I have wondered if Khorne termis + fight twice is ever worth it. Shame it's 3CP instead of 2CP like the shoot twice one is.

Can a csm aspiring champion take a combi-plasma and a chainsword?

xenoterracide wrote:
Can a csm aspiring champion take a combi-plasma and a chainsword?

Yes.

Niiru wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
Got a question about Terminators, specifically within a World Eaters context.

Are terminators generally effective and/or considered competitive? I've heard of the combi-plasma terminators with a lord, but what about the other options? Does anyone use them with heavy weapons? Does anyone use them with power fists or lightning claws? And does anyone mix and match their equipment upgrades or do people generally leave them identical? They're very expensive and I worry about over-equipping them.

The cheapo loadout is decent.
Problem is, you do kinda need the doubling of dakka, ergo Slaanesh is kinda enforced.

The reaper is a decent choice, worth it's points and a utility weapon.

Melee is too expensive, beyond the chain axe imo.
Although if you go we with them that might even work.

I struggle to even want to use the terminators with chainaxes seeing as they'd be so much worse than berzerkers. It's annoying how the new terminators don't even give you enough chainaxes to equip them all like that anyway.

well you get alot of enegry fist parts, which look like elongated armor plates to defend hands.
Add in a bunch of Chainswords from the new box and well you get a really nice alternative.

I've also been trying to find ways to make terminators good. I dislike the transport tax, so I tend to only field units which have their own transport. Jetpacks and Termis with deepstrike are the ideal. But they just don't tend to be very good at the moment.

I have wondered if Khorne termis + fight twice is ever worth it. Shame it's 3CP instead of 2CP like the shoot twice one is.

Balancing wise the CP cost should've been swapped for these two....
But he it isn't like shooting was superior to melee since 5 editions now?
I generally have had good results with my min 5 squad with axes and CB's and a reaper. The squad is cheap, it still brings a lot of dakka down and has some (albiet iffy) durability to them.
It's a utility unit though, a cheap threat so to speak, if you field it as a legion unit though VotWL and with slaanesh it becomes an oppurtunity threat that needs to be dealt with or ignored. They work best in a list that has multiple of these units, that force a reaction or punish the enemy.

Alternatively AL termites can be deployed from the start and have 24" threat range on their Combibolters.

I don't know if we have reached a tipping point. But I just realised that CSM is now one of the few armies that can literally do turn 1 all out charge now.

Last time, we only had LOS with warptime. But that was just 1 big lord of war.

Then we had Lord Discordant with soulforged pack and advance and charge strategem added. Now we got one more punchy death machine that can quite possibly turn 1 charge.

Now we have chaos knights codex and their strategems and warlord traits and household traits. So, it is certainly quite possible to have 1 melee chaos knight advance and charge with full tilt on turn 1.

And ... we also have helldrakes who can always get a turn 1 charge in because of their ridiculous fly range.

We can also substitute Lord of skulls with Magnus as a warptime target. Same thing. Turn 1 charge with a terrifying lord of war.

So, combine all of this, and we have literally have our whole army charge in turn 1 in an all out do or die. Of course, we still have to deal with chaff and bubble wrap. So, save some points for troop CSM with chain cannons and stuff.

But it kinda sounds like a fun army. And its good against a ranged army that likes to sit back. With such a massive turn 1 charge by multiple biggies. I think a fully ranged army simply won't have enough shooting to handle this type of army before it is right in its gills and wrecking its backline. What do you all think?

Screens, would indeed be a wrench, but inbetween red Corsairs, Lord discordants and Soulforged packs a bunch of helldrakes and other niceties it might, just might, could work?

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I don't know if we have reached a tipping point. But I just realised that CSM is now one of the few armies that can literally do turn 1 all out charge now.

Last time, we only had LOS with warptime. But that was just 1 big lord of war.

Then we had Lord Discordant with soulforged pack and advance and charge strategem added. Now we got one more punchy death machine that can quite possibly turn 1 charge.

Now we have chaos knights codex and their strategems and warlord traits and household traits. So, it is certainly quite possible to have 1 melee chaos knight advance and charge with full tilt on turn 1.

And ... we also have helldrakes who can always get a turn 1 charge in because of their ridiculous fly range.

We can also substitute Lord of skulls with Magnus as a warptime target. Same thing. Turn 1 charge with a terrifying lord of war.

So, combine all of this, and we have literally have our whole army charge in turn 1 in an all out do or die. Of course, we still have to deal with chaff and bubble wrap. So, save some points for troop CSM with chain cannons and stuff.

But it kinda sounds like a fun army. And its good against a ranged army that likes to sit back. With such a massive turn 1 charge by multiple biggies. I think a fully ranged army simply won't have enough shooting to handle this type of army before it is right in its gills and wrecking its backline. What do you all think?

Paying CP to advance & charge a single Daemon Engine? Bring a Gnarlmaw or some Slaaneshi Daemons and have a DE jamboree in the enemy DZ on turn one

Extra points for positioning some Fiends of Slaanesh so that enemy units are forced to play punching bag & human shield with the pack of furious Maulers. Please, do rely on short ranged gunners to deal with my shock troops

(On that note, a Host Raptorial of Warp Talons leading a bunch of hammer units are the absolute worst nightmare of armies that rely on short ranged dakka to deal with incursions)

So, putting this idea of a massive turn 1 charge into an actual list. We have below a LOS, a melee despoiler, 2 helldrakes, 1 flying DP, and 1 LD and 3 CSM troops.

It actually packs quite a lot of shots even while charging into that glorious turn 1 charge. Because even while moving up on turn 1 before the charge, you can shoot 3 baleflamers, a demon forged Hades gatling cannon (12 str 8 shots) and Demongore cannon (d6 Str 9 shots), a warpbolter, 3 plasma shots and 24 chain cannon shots, and 18 bolter shots (bolter drill). So, can remove some chaff before the turn 1 charge goes in.

And after the shooting, we can then full tilt the despoiler, warptime the LOS, use Infernal Engines on the LD, and have your 6 beasties make that glorious turn 1 charge. lol.

And because its red corsairs, the list actually has 11 CP to play with (for stuff like soul forged pack, full tilt, demonforge, raise ion shields, etc etc. : )

It actually makes sense to deploy the CSM right in front so that they have good range to more chaff to hit, because with up to 6 beasties in your opponents face on turn 1, he doesn't have time to worry about those 15 chaos space marines even if they are not in cover.
PS: it might make more sense to make the LOS iron warriors so that you can use the strategem Iron Within, Iron Without for a 6++ FNP on the LOS since it won't benefit from being red corsairs. But then again, if its red corsair, and the LOS is close enough to the LD, it will become effectively 2+ BS and WS! hehe. I guess its whether you want to go more offense or have some defense.


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [48 PL, 988pts, 1CP] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion [1CP]: Red Corsairs

+ HQ +

Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 183pts]: Malefic talon, Warlord, Warp bolter, Warptime, Wings
. Slaanesh

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Slaanesh
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 97pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Reaper chaincannon

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 97pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Reaper chaincannon

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 97pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Reaper chaincannon

+ Flyer +

Heldrake [9 PL, 167pts]: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws, No Chaos Mark

Heldrake [9 PL, 167pts]: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws, No Chaos Mark

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [30 PL, 635pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP

Legion: Red Corsairs

+ Lord of War +

Khorne Lord of Skulls [30 PL, 635pts]: Daemongore cannon, Hades gatling cannon

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Chaos - Chaos Knights) [25 PL, 372pts, -1CP] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP

Tyrannical Court [-1CP]: One model

Warlord Traits (Reference)

+ Lord of War +

Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 372pts]: 3. Daemonic Vigour, 5. Eager for the Kill, 5. Single-minded Hatred, Character (Tyrannical Court), Dreadblade, Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household, Pacts and Damnations, Reaper chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet

++ Total: [103 PL, 1,995pts] ++

Not sure how you do your math but.

1. Chaos Knight (Not really up to date here sadly)

2. Helldrake

3.Heldrake

4. LoS with Warptime

5. Lord D if you advance you have a slight change yes. Take "Field commander" -1cp and give him +2" to Move aura


6.DP? hes not going to make it T1, but if you do make it with all that it does not matter.

Buying Chaos Knight codex now so i can read up a little.

List seems fun and terrifying to be against.

I was considering running something like this since I have the models for it. Had to cut a baleflamer back to a hades autocannon on one of the heldrakes to make it fit under 2000.. Was considering running bloodslaughterers instead of forgefiends, but not sure exactly how you manage that with battlescribe. Can you not take them as part of a normal CSM batallion?


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [62 PL, 10CP, 1,103pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Legion [3CP]: Red Corsairs

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Soulforged Pack

+ HQ +

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, Mark of Slaanesh, Master of the Soulforges, Mecha-serpents, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, Mark of Khorne
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

+ Heavy Support +

Maulerfiend [7 PL, 132pts]: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Slaanesh

Maulerfiend [7 PL, 132pts]: Lasher tendrils, No Chaos Mark

+ Flyer +

Heldrake [9 PL, 157pts]: Hades Autocannon, Heldrake claws, Mark of Khorne

Heldrake [9 PL, 167pts]: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws, Mark of Slaanesh

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Chaos - Chaos Knights) [25 PL, -1CP, 485pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Corrupted Heirlooms [-1CP]: One model

+ Lord of War +

Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 485pts]: Corrupted Heirloom, Dreadblade, Heavy stubber, Helm of Warpsight, Iconoclast Household, Pacts and Damnations
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Chaos - FW Heretic Astartes) [25 PL, 410pts] ++

+ Lord of War +

Kytan Ravager [25 PL, 410pts]: Kytan gatling cannon

++ Total: [112 PL, 9CP, 1,998pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

I would suggest when asking for list advice to mention what ruleset and what your intent is. The way a list handles in Chapter approved vs NOVA vs ITC is frequently very different. This should be added to the FAQ of this forum and the army list forum. A frequent problem on this forum is lists without context and it becomes challenging to really provide input. For example, the kytan is traditionally not a very competitive unit, nor are heldrakes, yet both are in your list. If you really like the kytan model and the heldrakes - thats great - but then its silly to suggest removing them.

I think this list will suffer on at least two fronts - one against a high flyer list (some have run as many as 9) which will bubble you out - and two hard gunlines (with appropriate screens) will be a tough nut to crack. For example, how exactly does this list deal with some of the top Tau lists that have been out there lately? I'm also not sure you have the tools necessary to deal with most custodes lists that run around on a 3 up invul with rerolls.

For fluff and funsies it looks like it could give an opponent a bad day if they were ill-prepared or running a suboptimal list. Since you have some good components (Lord Disco, Knight etc.) in the list you likely leave most matchups with some impact...

orkswubwub wrote:

Spoiler:

Dracarys wrote:
I was considering running something like this since I have the models for it. Had to cut a baleflamer back to a hades autocannon on one of the heldrakes to make it fit under 2000.. Was considering running bloodslaughterers instead of forgefiends, but not sure exactly how you manage that with battlescribe. Can you not take them as part of a normal CSM batallion?


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [62 PL, 10CP, 1,103pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Legion [3CP]: Red Corsairs

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Soulforged Pack

+ HQ +

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, Mark of Slaanesh, Master of the Soulforges, Mecha-serpents, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, Mark of Khorne
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

+ Heavy Support +

Maulerfiend [7 PL, 132pts]: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Slaanesh

Maulerfiend [7 PL, 132pts]: Lasher tendrils, No Chaos Mark

+ Flyer +

Heldrake [9 PL, 157pts]: Hades Autocannon, Heldrake claws, Mark of Khorne

Heldrake [9 PL, 167pts]: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws, Mark of Slaanesh

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Chaos - Chaos Knights) [25 PL, -1CP, 485pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Corrupted Heirlooms [-1CP]: One model

+ Lord of War +

Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 485pts]: Corrupted Heirloom, Dreadblade, Heavy stubber, Helm of Warpsight, Iconoclast Household, Pacts and Damnations
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Chaos - FW Heretic Astartes) [25 PL, 410pts] ++

+ Lord of War +

Kytan Ravager [25 PL, 410pts]: Kytan gatling cannon

++ Total: [112 PL, 9CP, 1,998pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

I would suggest when asking for list advice to mention what ruleset and what your intent is. The way a list handles in Chapter approved vs NOVA vs ITC is frequently very different. This should be added to the FAQ of this forum and the army list forum. A frequent problem on this forum is lists without context and it becomes challenging to really provide input. For example, the kytan is traditionally not a very competitive unit, nor are heldrakes, yet both are in your list. If you really like the kytan model and the heldrakes - thats great - but then its silly to suggest removing them.

I think this list will suffer on at least two fronts - one against a high flyer list (some have run as many as 9) which will bubble you out - and two hard gunlines (with appropriate screens) will be a tough nut to crack. For example, how exactly does this list deal with some of the top Tau lists that have been out there lately? I'm also not sure you have the tools necessary to deal with most custodes lists that run around on a 3 up invul with rerolls.

For fluff and funsies it looks like it could give an opponent a bad day if they were ill-prepared or running a suboptimal list. Since you have some good components (Lord Disco, Knight etc.) in the list you likely leave most matchups with some impact...

Totally understand. I'm new to competitive 40k (and to 40k generally), so will admit I'm not 100% up to date with the meta (but I'm working towards it). I was looking for some advice for tweaking the list for eventual ITC tournament play. The list was intended to take as many units as possible that would benefit from soul forged pack stratagems (aside from the knight), which may have led to some sub-optimal choices. Thought process behind choices was that the Heldrakes and the dual avenger Chaos Knight would be enough to handle flyers while the Discos, forgefiends and Kytan try to deal with well, everything else. Meanwhile the CP tax chaos marines go for objectives since I don't think they're terribly useful for anything else.

I was thinking about replacing the Drakes and Forgefiends with better long range support, maybe with some hellforged dreadnoughts.

I am also curious about why the Kytan doesn't see much use because looks like it should be good on paper with bonuses to get it into combat, regen, a 3+?5++, and with up to 15 DD3 attacks at strength 10 to deal with infantry or 5 strength 20 D6 for titanic units. It also benefits from Disco buffs. It and the bloodslaughterers seem like they'd be good but perhaps slightly overcosted?

I just played a game over the weekend using what I call my Monster Mash list against a nasty Genestealer Cult/AM list, playing a Relic-variant tournament mission (3 relics). I lost by 1 point, but we had a great game, and the list played very well, so I wanted to share again.

Alpha Legion Battalion
1- Demon Prince of Slaanesh: claws, delightful agonies, intoxicating elixir
1- Sorcerer on bike with axe: warptime, miasma of pestilence
1- Lord Discordant: Mark of nurgle
26- cultists
5- Chaos Marines
5- Chaos Marines
2- Maulerfiends: Lasher tendrils
1- Blood Slaughterer of Khorne: 2 slaughter blades

Alpha Legion Vanguard
1- Warpsmith
3- Helbrutes: fist/scourge; mark of nurgle

Black Legion Patrol
1- Abaddon
30- ccw cultists

I made the Battalion a Soulforged Pack and used Field Commander to give him the Warlord Trait as well. The list gave my opponent some massive target priority confusion, with everything running forward onto objectives and having Maulerfiends and the Blood Slaughterer in his face turn 1. Abaddon and psychic support kept the Cultists alive long enough to score objective holding points. It was a fun list to play and (thanks to the new GW movement trays) fast to play as well.

Dracarys wrote:I was considering running something like this since I have the models for it. Had to cut a baleflamer back to a hades autocannon on one of the heldrakes to make it fit under 2000.. Was considering running bloodslaughterers instead of forgefiends, but not sure exactly how you manage that with battlescribe. Can you not take them as part of a normal CSM batallion?

You need to add chaos - FW heretic astartes to the chaos - chaos space marines. After you created the battalion click edit forces. Now click on the battalion, and click +add. Choose FW heretic astartes and click ok twice. Now you can choose from the FW chaos units.

Dracarys wrote:
I am also curious about why the Kytan doesn't see much use because looks like it should be good on paper with bonuses to get it into combat, regen, a 3+?5++, and with up to 15 DD3 attacks at strength 10 to deal with infantry or 5 strength 20 D6 for titanic units. It also benefits from Disco buffs. It and the bloodslaughterers seem like they'd be good but perhaps slightly overcosted?

A kytan needs support from a disco lord, master of posession/dark apostle, etc. A knight doesnt.

Isn't that the case for, well, basically all daemonengines except the Lord discordant.

 p5freak wrote:

Dracarys wrote:I was considering running something like this since I have the models for it. Had to cut a baleflamer back to a hades autocannon on one of the heldrakes to make it fit under 2000.. Was considering running bloodslaughterers instead of forgefiends, but not sure exactly how you manage that with battlescribe. Can you not take them as part of a normal CSM batallion?

You need to add chaos - FW heretic astartes to the chaos - chaos space marines. After you created the battalion click edit forces. Now click on the battalion, and click +add. Choose FW heretic astartes and click ok twice. Now you can choose from the FW chaos units.

Dracarys wrote:
I am also curious about why the Kytan doesn't see much use because looks like it should be good on paper with bonuses to get it into combat, regen, a 3+?5++, and with up to 15 DD3 attacks at strength 10 to deal with infantry or 5 strength 20 D6 for titanic units. It also benefits from Disco buffs. It and the bloodslaughterers seem like they'd be good but perhaps slightly overcosted?

A kytan needs support from a disco lord, master of posession/dark apostle, etc. A knight doesnt.

A Kytan can operate independently. The only thing it needs is 1CP for infernal engines so it can advance 12+ 2D6 and still charge. After an average 19 move it only needs another 7 to make it 26".

It hasn't been seen much because it's awesome new stratagem is new and the old meta was full of castellan with volcano cannons and lists built to kill a knight.

Not Online!!! wrote:Isn't that the case for, well, basically all daemonengines except the Lord discordant.

Basically yes.

schadenfreude wrote:
A Kytan can operate independently. The only thing it needs is 1CP for infernal engines so it can advance 12+ 2D6 and still charge. After an average 19 move it only needs another 7 to make it 26".

Sure he can operate independently. But its not really a good idea.

To add the Kytan is stuck with a 5++ (I think) whereas the knights typically are on 4++ for 1CP which makes them significantly more durable when being hit with high AP d6 weapons at range. Most gunline armies will practically shoot a 4++ knight off the table in one turn so the kytan suffers. Particularly as most lists will now be bringing heavy anti-armor post the Chaos Knight Codex.

orkswubwub wrote:
To add the Kytan is stuck with a 5++ (I think) whereas the knights typically are on 4++ for 1CP which makes them significantly more durable when being hit with high AP d6 weapons at range. Most gunline armies will practically shoot a 4++ knight off the table in one turn so the kytan suffers. Particularly as most lists will now be bringing heavy anti-armor post the Chaos Knight Codex.

MoP cursed earth.

That would be another 98 pts though.