Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]

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**Kharneth**

I don't like Kharn and I don't like using named characters. Also, Kharn confers no benefit to my list that a chaos Lord doesn't. I like world eaters and I like that it allows berzerkers as troops.

What other legion traits are more worth taking? Advancing and charging would only be of benefit sometimes, usually I am close enough that I don't need to advance and the majority of the distance is inside the rhino anyway.

**blackmage**

f the chain lord does 20 damage, and 10 MW in addition, he can die, even if he is the warlord. His job is done.

a BL lord? 20 damage? you mean elixr+thunder hammer+ ghovshrex+flame of spite? I prefer a Dp with ultimate confidence+elixir+diabolic strenght, 9 str 10 attacks at 6 dealing 3(4) extra attacks, no mortals but tons of attacks. I guess the main point is Lord is pretty more cheap.

**p5freak**

No, I mean a khorne BL lord with two chainswords, ghorisvex teeth, flames of spite, votlw, and soultearer portent. 7 attacks, he hits on 2s, rerolling 1s, any wound roll of 4+ are 2MW in addition to normal damage. And 3cp to fight again. I prefer MW because there is no sv against it. Your 20 attacks, or whatever, can all be saved. My 10MW can't be saved, unless there is an ignore wound ability, which is rare.

**Not Online!!!**

p5freak wrote:
No, I mean a khorne BL lord with two chainswords, ghorisvex teeth, flames of spite, votlw, and soultearer portent. 7 attacks, he hits on 2s, rerolling 1s, any wound roll of 4+ are 2MW in addition to normal damage. And 3cp to fight again. I prefer MW because there is no sv against it. Your 20 attacks, or whatever, can all be saved. My 10MW can't be saved, unless there is an ignore wound ability, which is rare.

So you casually blow 5 CP?

and more considering you might want another warlord and etc.

Seems a bit off overpooling of ressources.

**buddha**

Not Online!!! wrote:
p5freak wrote:
No, I mean a khorne BL lord with two chainswords, ghorisvex teeth, flames of spite, votlw, and soultearer portent. 7 attacks, he hits on 2s, rerolling 1s, any wound roll of 4+ are 2MW in addition to normal damage. And 3cp to fight again. I prefer MW because there is no sv against it. Your 20 attacks, or whatever, can all be saved. My 10MW can't be saved, unless there is an ignore wound ability, which is rare.

So you casually blow 5 CP?

and more considering you might want another warlord and etc.

Seems a bit off overpooling of ressources.

With respect, do realize that build is taken at the highest levels of competitive play for chaos. Being able to nuke a target is what this and the smash captains are made for.

**Not Online!!!**

That build? depending on side show, costs alone 7 cp.
That is literally a whole battery in cost additional to a bl jumppack Lord.
So in other words it is just another anti knight slingshot.

**p5freak**

Not Online!!! wrote:
p5freak wrote:
No, I mean a khorne BL lord with two chainswords, ghorisvex teeth, flames of spite, votlw, and soultearer portent. 7 attacks, he hits on 2s, rerolling 1s, any wound roll of 4+ are 2MW in addition to normal damage. And 3cp to fight again. I prefer MW because there is no sv against it. Your 20 attacks, or whatever, can all be saved. My 10MW can't be saved, unless there is an ignore wound ability, which is rare.

So you casually blow 5 CP?

and more considering you might want another warlord and etc.

Seems a bit off overpooling of ressources.

Its 4cp, and they aren't casually blown. They are spend for 20 damage and 10MW.

**blackmage**

so you need 100 extra point for apostole (plus dark disciples) for that combo? If you dont deliver enough mortal wounds with an ap0 weapon like chainsword (5 of your 7 attacks) your damage output is almost 0, I looked at many ITC/ETC lists no one have units like those two anyway, couple of vindicare (common in many imperial lists here) and your combo wont last just to mention one, i would like to see where all those high competive list feauturing slam lord+apostole are, im not sarcastic i just like to see, im curious.

**Niiru**

Personally, I also tend to shy away from using named characters in friendly games... but I'd much prefer to field Abaddon than a fully cheesed out smash captain / chain lord.

On another topic - Legion Trait choices for a Discordant / Prince. My main legion... might be Purge, or it might be Black Legion, I'm honestly not too sure yet. But what I do know, is that it's pointless to run my Disco as either of them, as I gain nothing from it.

Flawless Host is the obvious choice for the few bonus attacks they'll get, but I was wondering if there are other good options. Corsairs for advance and charge seems promising. Also considered the old faithful Alphas... It'll be a waste once the Disco gets into combat, but it might mean he survives a turn or two longer from the long-range anti-tank weapons. And if they move into his 12" bubble, then he can eat them next turn.

**Drudge Dreadnought**

Niiru wrote:
Personally, I also tend to shy away from using named characters in friendly games... but I'd much prefer to field Abaddon than a fully cheesed out smash captain / chain lord.

On another topic - Legion Trait choices for a Discordant / Prince. My main legion... might be Purge, or it might be Black Legion, I'm honestly not too sure yet. But what I do know, is that it's pointless to run my Disco as either of them, as I gain nothing from it.

Flawless Host is the obvious choice for the few bonus attacks they'll get, but I was wondering if there are other good options. Corsairs for advance and charge seems promising. Also considered the old faithful Alphas... It'll be a waste once the Disco gets into combat, but it might mean he survives a turn or two longer from the long-range anti-tank weapons. And if they move into his 12" bubble, then he can eat them next turn.

Isn't the BL halve damage warlord trait pretty much the best for the Disco?

**Niiru**

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Niiru wrote:
Personally, I also tend to shy away from using named characters in friendly games... but I'd much prefer to field Abaddon than a fully cheesed out smash captain / chain lord.

On another topic - Legion Trait choices for a Discordant / Prince. My main legion... might be Purge, or it might be Black Legion, I'm honestly not too sure yet. But what I do know, is that it's pointless to run my Disco as either of them, as I gain nothing from it.

Flawless Host is the obvious choice for the few bonus attacks they'll get, but I was wondering if there are other good options. Corsairs for advance and charge seems promising. Also considered the old faithful Alphas... It'll be a waste once the Disco gets into combat, but it might mean he survives a turn or two longer from the long-range anti-tank weapons. And if they move into his 12" bubble, then he can eat them next turn.

Isn't the BL halve damage warlord trait pretty much the best for the Disco?

Maybe, that or the Flawless Host one. But my Disco isn't my warlord. I'm talking about Legion Traits, not warlord traits.

**p5freak**

Not Online!!! wrote:That build? depending on side show, costs alone 7 cp.
That is literally a whole battery in cost additional to a bl jumppack Lord.
So in other words it is just another anti knight slingshot.

What ?? The (JP) chain lord costs 4CP, 1 for votlw, and 3 to fight again.

blackmage wrote:so you need 100 extra point for apostole (plus dark disciples) for that combo? If you dont deliver enough mortal wounds with an ap0 weapon like chainsword (5 of your 7 attacks) your damage output is almost 0, I looked at many ITC/ETC lists no one have units like those two anyway, couple of vindicare (common in many imperial lists here) and your combo wont last just to mention one, i would like to see where all those high competive list feauturing slam lord+apostole are, im not sarcastic i just like to see, im curious.

Ghorisvex teeth is AP-2, i can choose whatever melee weapon i have for my attacks. I make 6 attacks with ghorisvex teeth and 1 bonus attack with the chainsword.

You guys really should read the rules before posting

**Abaddon303**

Azuza001 wrote:
Kharneth wrote:
Niiru wrote:
Kharneth wrote:

I don't understand your advice. I'm not looking for poor advice "because I'm khorne," because I'm not khorne. I'm looking for advice for a functional and effective world eaters force. I use to use the apostle but I'm thinking against it now since it's only buff now must be cast to be used and can't be cast when it is needed most. I also found the character auras to be more restrictive than beneficial, but of course I will need characters.

I've toyed with the idea of putting 3x8 berzerkers in a spartan plus a champion, but never got around to actually buying one and I'm not entirely sure it's a good idea. My friend advised 5 units in rhinos backed by 3 butcher cannon decimators. Frankly, I like the idea of an ocean of berzerkers and would love it if I could fit 8x8 units of berzerkers.

What about a battalion with 6 units of 8 berzerkers with chainaxes and a power axe lead by an exalted champion and chaos lord, then a patrol detachment with 2 units of 8 berzerkers with chain axes and a power axe lead by another exalted champion, all in rhinos. I'd make them twin battalions but I am short the points for another hero.

Sorry, I tend to take a more light hearted view of this game, but i'll admit not everyone feels the same way.

Back to the actual advice - The spartan idea is a fun one, but I agree it's not necessarily the best. It's an expensive basket, and it can be pretty easily killed even though it's extremely powerful. Knights and such are an annoyance, but unfortunately they are played a lot.

5 units in rhinos is a good one, I wasn't sure quite how many you were considering getting which is why I only mentioned having two. You'd want a minimum of 2 or 3 rhinos of berzerkers, but 5 of them would be great. A lot of them would end up getting into the fight.

I'd actually recommend butcher cannon Deredeos instead, they're more point efficient as a gun platform, and you're not using anything that will help with the 'daemon' part of the decimator anyway. If you can swing the points for a HQ, then fielding a Lord + 3x Deredeos in an Alpha Legion spearhead is pretty much the best option you can get. But if you can't afford extra detachments, they'll still do a lot of work for you.

Edit: Also, if you're taking 5 units of 'zerkers, you might as well up it to 6 and make two Battallions out of it. Lots of CP for fight-twice stratagems.

You said to literally take as many as possible and the minimum troops for a battalion is 3 so I'll definitely be taking 3. So was that real advice or was it just bs exaggerating about the use of berzerkers? I know that they're good, but copy pasting an army of them is unlikely going to be successful. Berzerkers can't deal with everything. Are there any chaos deredeos? The only ones I see look like they're space marines.

If you want some success with Berserkers, you need to put them in Rhinos because they are fragile and easily killed. And you also need some other stuff that can clear away chaff. If not, against any list that has chaff, you will be charging your zerkers into the chaff, and then having them shot off the board the following turn.

If your zerkers are the chaff clearers, then you have to disembark them and send them out in waves instead of all at once.

5-man units of what? Berzerkers or CSM? I do agree that something to clear chaff is important and I'd also need something to take out flyers with.

Anything is on the table, but last time I played about a year ago I found my berzerkers out performing everything else (demon prince, bloodletters, blood slaughterer, etc) so I'm thinking the only other things I include will be fire support. World Eaters and Demons of Khorne only, no other legions, no other marks, absolutely no sorcerers.

It's 1254 points for 5x8 Berzerkers in rhinos, a lord, and an exalted champion, which leaves me roughly 700 points for fire support or more berzerkers. My options seem to be dreadnoughts of various kinds, is that right?

700 pts is a lot of options. If your looking to stay mono codex and want fire support i would suggest Kharn, 2 forgefiends with gattlings, and a defiler or venom crawler. Have kharn stand back with the forgefiends giving them reroll all failed hits, sit on a back objective, and earn vp. No one will want to charge 2 forgefiends with kharn babysitting. Defiler can use deamonforged strat to reroll failed hits and wounds. And if these guys are not putting enough pressure onto your opponent may i suggest adding a chaos deamon in? Put a single blood throne with the crown artifact next to the forgefiends and laugh as those 6's to hit generate additional hits and 6's to wound generate additional hits. Its magical. Played something like that at a tournament a few months ago, went 2 and 1 (with my only loss coming at the hands of a tyranid player whos hive tyrant survived karn in cc.... tyrant had 1 wound left and needed to make 3 6's to survive and pulled it off. Cant counter dice rolls sometimes lol). The 2 forgefiends i had were wrecking face in all 3 games.

Sorry can you clarify? What am I missing. The crown is giving you extra hits on wound rolls of 6 but what gives extra hits on hit rolls of 6?

**blackmage**

p5freak wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:That build? depending on side show, costs alone 7 cp.
That is literally a whole battery in cost additional to a bl jumppack Lord.
So in other words it is just another anti knight slingshot.

What ?? The (JP) chain lord costs 4CP, 1 for votlw, and 3 to fight again.

blackmage wrote:so you need 100 extra point for apostole (plus dark disciples) for that combo? If you dont deliver enough mortal wounds with an ap0 weapon like chainsword (5 of your 7 attacks) your damage output is almost 0, I looked at many ITC/ETC lists no one have units like those two anyway, couple of vindicare (common in many imperial lists here) and your combo wont last just to mention one, i would like to see where all those high competive list feauturing slam lord+apostole are, im not sarcastic i just like to see, im curious.

Ghorisvex teeth is AP-2, i can choose whatever melee weapon i have for my attacks. I make 6 attacks with ghorisvex teeth and 1 bonus attack with the chainsword.

You guys really should read the rules before posting

remain the fact NO competitive list ( i looked at about 75 chaos lists ETC/ITC) play that combo, i wont say what happen against an Ik if you dont kill it in 1st wave of attacks, the stratagem is used at END of fight phase, so 1st Ik stomps your Lord (only 4 wound T4) and only if Lord survive, can attack again. Again if you face an imperium list with 2 vindicare bye bye combo (ETC lists feature 2 vindicares when they play assassin). Anyway im sure in moderate competitive level it's a very strong option but at level i play i cant ever think to spend 203pts like that,
@you right was my mistake i forgot about the basic 4+2 attacks with the ghorisvex

**small_gods**

blackmage wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:That build? depending on side show, costs alone 7 cp.
That is literally a whole battery in cost additional to a bl jumppack Lord.
So in other words it is just another anti knight slingshot.

What ?? The (JP) chain lord costs 4CP, 1 for votlw, and 3 to fight again.

blackmage wrote:so you need 100 extra point for apostole (plus dark disciples) for that combo? If you dont deliver enough mortal wounds with an ap0 weapon like chainsword (5 of your 7 attacks) your damage output is almost 0, I looked at many ITC/ETC lists no one have units like those two anyway, couple of vindicare (common in many imperial lists here) and your combo wont last just to mention one, i would like to see where all those high competive list feauturing slam lord+apostole are, im not sarcastic i just like to see, im curious.

Ghorisvex teeth is AP-2, i can choose whatever melee weapon i have for my attacks. I make 6 attacks with ghorisvex teeth and 1 bonus attack with the chainsword.

You guys really should read the rules before posting

remain the fact NO competitive list ( i looked at about 75 chaos lists ETC/ITC) play that combo, i wont say what happen against an Ik if you dont kill it in 1st wave of attacks, the stratagem is used at END of fight phase, so 1st Ik stomps your Lord (only 4 wound T4) and only if Lord survive, can attack again. Again if you face an imperium list with 2 vindicare bye bye combo (ETC lists feature 2 vindicares when they play assassin). Anyway im sure in moderate competitive level it's a very strong option but at level i play i cant ever think to spend 203pts like that,
@you right was my mistake i forgot about the basic 4+2 attacks with the ghorisvex

Gorvex's teeth is ap -3 and a chaos lord has 5 wounds....

But i think it's more of a theory build rather than a really useful one. I've run it without the dark apostle and it'll kill a knight in one turn if he doesn't get stomped on halfway through (depends how lucky you get with your 4++) . It's also a pretty decent way to chop through things like bullgrins and custodes also. But really I'd take a flawless host daemon prince or skullreaver prince over him anyday.

**blackmage**

yes mistyped, 5 wounds, in any case make him WL and you gift slay the warlord every match, and if you play maelstrom that can cost you 2-3 points depend by cards your opponent have, assasinate+slay warlord+kingslayer and can cost you 5 Vp. I repeat never seen it played in competitive, some believe they can replicate slam captain but is not the same at all, i wont say is a bad unit at all, just dont see how it can make the cut with a flawless host Dp with elixir and diabolic strenght ultimate confidence more durable tons of attacks (9) and each 6 3 or 4 more, ap-2 only but it can clear almost anything.
Anyway this is a list im going to playtest, still not sure about just 12 marines (bit too light screen)

Spoiler:

this is a variant without IK's

Spoiler:

**small_gods**

blackmage wrote:
yes mistyped, 5 wounds, in any case make him WL and you gift slay the warlord every match, and if you play maelstrom that can cost you 2-3 points depend by cards your opponent have, assasinate+slay warlord+kingslayer and can cost you 5 Vp. I repeat never seen it played in competitive, some believe they can replicate slam captain but is not the same at all, i wont say is a bad unit at all, just dont see how it can make the cut with a flawless host Dp with elixir and diabolic strenght ultimate confidence more durable tons of attacks (9) and each 6 3 or 4 more, ap-2 only but it can clear almost anything.
Anyway this is a list im going to playtest, still not sure about just 12 marines (bit too light screen)

Spoiler:

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [39 PL, -3CP, 710pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Field Commander [-1CP]

Gifts of Chaos (1 Relic) [-1CP]

Legion: Red Corsairs

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Soulforged Pack

+ HQ +

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, Mark of Khorne, Master of the Soulforges
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, Mark of Khorne, Mecha-serpents
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

+ Heavy Support +

Venomcrawler [7 PL, 130pts]: Mark of Khorne

Venomcrawler [7 PL, 130pts]: Mark of Khorne

Venomcrawler [7 PL, 130pts]: Mark of Khorne

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Chaos Knights) [43 PL, 825pts] ++

+ Lord of War +

Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 501pts]: 1. Infernal Quest, Character (Traitoris Lance), Heavy stubber, Helm of Warpsight, Infernal Household, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Warlord
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer

War Dogs [9 PL, 162pts]
. War Dog: Heavy stubber, Infernal Household, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver

War Dogs [9 PL, 162pts]
. War Dog: Heavy stubber, Infernal Household, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Daemons) [27 PL, 3CP, 455pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Chaos Allegiance: Nurgle

Legion [3CP]: Red Corsairs

+ HQ +

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, Mark of Khorne
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Sorcerer [6 PL, 100pts]: Combi-bolter, Death Hex, Force stave, Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

++ Total: [109 PL, 1,990pts] ++

I'm in the same boat, not sure if I should stick with usual 60 plaguebearers or use some red cosairs. I've been using red cosairs, Huron, 3 full knights and only 2 LDs with no venomcrawlers. But a similar sort of list. It's done well so far but not faced a mele horde yet like gsc or daemons.

After that I'm going try 60 plaguebearers and 20 bloodletters with 3 knights and see if I miss the cp and lord discordants.

**blackmage**

this is a list a friend of mine brought to a tournament last weekend

Spoiler:

he faced IG with 3 tank commander 2 company commanders 60 guardsmen 9 mortars 3 sentinels bullygins and a castellan IK at maelstrom, he tied 10-10 (bad maelstrom card and castellan who wreak havocs)
eldar with reapers 3 flyers waves with troops shining spears mission with 3 obj one in each deply zone and one at center won 16-4
GSC mission where obj moves around the table, i dont know the whole list but sure abberrants patriarch banner and lot of bodies, won 14-6 (plaguebearers and Ik made the difference here)
he finished 3rd, first time he played that list.

**small_gods**

That seems to have a lot of damage output and staying power. I'm thinking of running this:

Spoiler:

**blackmage**

yes if i had 3 Ik i would try a list like that, the thing LoD gives is lot of melee power also against hordes, 12 attacks each and you can deliver 24 with korne stratagem, 48 attacks at 2+ isn't a joke, Ik's clean screens and give some extra melee power, with Wow of carnage not hard it gets 18 stomp attacks.

**drakerocket**

Lord discordants can't use the Khorne strat.

I tend tot think Flawless host, Corsairs/Alpha Legion and even World Eaters are all pretty viable for discos. Probably in about that order. Black legion honorable mention if you're running just one and are willing to make him your warlord.

**p5freak**

A flawless host disco lord with intoxicating elixir, ultimate confidence, prescience, and diabolic strength is insane. He has 14 attacks, hitting on 2s, and each 4+ are three additional attacks, thats 21 on average

Play daemonforge to re-roll any failed hit and wound rolls, which will be 1s to hit, and 1s and 2s to wound.

**blackmage**

oh i remembered the stratagem was available for characters too...im playing demons since 1 year and half, need to re read chaos marine codex.

**drakerocket**

Yeah and will be killed before he does anything.

I don't think Lord Discos are best when they is one single one souped up to the nines for offense. He's just gonna die. I think the only solo-lord which works well is perhaps a BL one.

You really need 2 or 3 to make them work well and I would spread out relics. Soulforge pack, one gets the elixir, one gets tendrils, one gets the +2 move trait. No obvious target to shoot.

**blackmage**

yes is the configuration im planning to play 3 LD in a supreme command elixir, artefact tendrils and +2 mov, red corsair so you can move advance and charge, one of them can be sling shot with warptime for an average threat range of 32"+charge.

**Rogerio134134**

Written up a little list which I'm roughly going for its along the lines of...

Alpha legion

Lord with terminator armour and combi plasma and PF

Sorcerer with jump pack mark of nurgle

Dark apostle

2 X 10 cultists

6 csm with Autocannon and plasma

Hellbrute twin las and ML

10 terminators with combi bolters and chainaxe , 2 X Autocannon 2 X powerfists

Havoc's 2 ml 2 lascannons

2 oblits

Rhino

And the rest will be spent on a knight or 2!!

Plan is to drop the terminators and oblits in with the termie lord to cause havoc while the rest sits back and shoots, probably have a shooty knight and a fighty one if I can fit that in 600 points, if not I'll just drop some stuff to fit them in.

**Not Online!!!**

Erm the csm squad is too small for 2 weapons changes.
The powerfist is meh at best.

**Niiru**

Is Alpha Legion still an ok choice for terminators? Mine will end up being fairly brawly mid-short range, but I assume it's still handy to have the -1 to hit against enemies that are a little further away.

Otherwise I'm thinking Purge.

**craggy**

What's people's thoughts on Khorne Vs Slaanesh for close combat?
I'm very old-school in feeling that Berzerkers are the CC beasts, and certainly they do seem good, but with the Endless Cacophony strat,being much better than anything World Eaters get for shooting, and Noise Marines having an amped up DTTFE and fighting again when they die, they don't seem bad.
Add in the saucy Flawless Host trait and it seems like a decent prospect. Even other units seem like they'd gain more from Slaanesh than Khorne when looking at marks and banners.

**Not Online!!!**

craggy wrote:
What's people's thoughts on Khorne Vs Slaanesh for close combat?
I'm very old-school in feeling that Berzerkers are the CC beasts, and certainly they do seem good, but with the Endless Cacophony strat,being much better than anything World Eaters get for shooting, and Noise Marines having an amped up DTTFE and fighting again when they die, they don't seem bad.
Add in the saucy Flawless Host trait and it seems like a decent prospect. Even other units seem like they'd gain more from Slaanesh than Khorne when looking at marks and banners.

Flawless Host has no access to VotLW which imo is required for noise marines.

Also if combat really is the goal, red Corsairs top both due to actually getting Stuck in. Sadly.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niiru wrote:

Is Alpha Legion still an ok choice for terminators? Mine will end up being fairly brawly mid-short range, but I assume it's still handy to have the -1 to hit against enemies that are a little further away.

Otherwise I'm thinking Purge.

If you intend to deploy the termites from the start it would actually be a great choice.

Purge is nice for that come in and destory something hard